UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 1 Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:38:38 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 08:03:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - Hatch >From: Brett Holman <bholman.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 03:12:52 +1000 >Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 06:59:29 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars >>Water on (or mostly in) Mars is becoming old news. Enough >>ice to skate on, in plain view on the surface is new news. >>I see somebody went to the trouble to disallow CO2 (dry) ice. >>I also see an odd bias here. For decades, nobody seemed to >>question dry (CO2) ice on Mars <snip> >That's not actually true; since the Viking probes of the 1970s >it's been thought that the northern polar cap is mostly H20 (it >used to be thought that the southern one was mostly CO2, but now >it is believed to be water ice as well.) <snip> >>Why was water ice, and (much worse) liquid water so, er, taboo >>on Mars for so long? >Liquid water would quickly evaporate at the atmospheric >pressure prevailing on Mars. Therefore there can't be much >liquid water, if any, on the Martian surface. But maybe liquid >water can form under special conditions, or exists in >underground aquifers ... Anyway, the point is that on many solar >system bodies, evidence for water just leaps out at you. On >Mars, it doesn't. With the intense scrutiny Mars has been >getting in recent years, it turns out that there might be more >water than we thought, which is very exciting! >>I can think of only one reason... it suggests the possibility >>of life, more or less as we know it. That must be the big sin, >>omething to be avoided at all costs until the evidence is >>compelling. >>Somebody, not just a few, will need to find other reasons why >>life, even if its only bacteria, is impossible on Mars. >>I think this very same prejudice is one of the main stumbling >>blocks preventing a truly scientific study of UFOs, one well >>funded and supported by mainstream science, rather than the >>mixed bag of people we have here for example. Yes, the 'mixed >>bag' is another stumbling block in itself, but that's totally >>beside the point. >I don't know. It may be related, but the study of the >possibility of life on Mars (past or present) is a fairly >respectable topic, scientifically speaking. (It's certainly not >dismissed outright, the way that UFOs are.) Most Mars missions >have been designed in part to shed light on the question, one >way or another, though they are probably more concerned with >questions which don't get mentioned in the newspapers! >>A perception that we are the highest form of intelligence in >>the universe seems to invisibly pervade science. Nobody will >>admit that in so many words of course, but its as if it were >>some religion they all subscribe to secretly. <snip> >>So what exactly is this bias? Whatever it is, it isn't >>science. >I agree there is a bias, but it's pretty obvious that it's an >overcompensation for the fact that scientists would really, >_really_ love to find life on Mars. It would make their decade, >if not their century. Given that desire, and given all the >history of overconfident announcements by scientists of finding >signs of life on Mars (from the canals to the Antarctic >meteorite), it's hardly surprising that they try to err on the >side of caution. In the long run, it doesn't matter: the truth >will out, eventually..... Hello Brett: I stand corrected on the Martian water ice matter, too much beer that day I suppose. When evidence of liquid water emerged, seepage from the side of a steep slope, Malin fell all over himself apologizing for the findings! It was _liquid_ water that seemed so taboo, not ice. Given press sensationalism over any indication of life elsewhere, I suppose scientists can be forgiven for erring on the side of caution. Still, I detect a silent bias, something akin to a religion, against even simple life forms. Many scientists would be thrilled to find it yes, then they could come out of the closet. Question remains: Why the closet? Nowadays (at long last) scientists will discuss the likelihood of life in the vast distant reaches of space. Do you sense a sort of mind-set something like: "That's OK, as long as its far enough away"?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 1 Re: Getting Busy In The Solar System! - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:31:49 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 08:12:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Getting Busy In The Solar System! - Balaskas >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:18:11 EDT >Subject: Getting Busy In The Solar System! >Wow! Talk about a day for planetary news! >A brand new planet catalogued in our own solar system. Actually, _two_ new planets were announced that same day. The one that is bigger than Pluto and is still known simply as 2003UB313. The other one known as 2003EL61 is a little smaller than Pluto but it does have a significant moon of its own just like all the other planets in our solar system, except Mercury. These two new worlds beyond the orbit of Neptune, join Pluto, Sedna, Quaoar and many other smaller planetoids that have also been discovered in recent times. The reason the new planet larger than Pluto was not discovered earlier is partly because it is much further away from the Sun but mostly because it does not move along the ecliptic or along the same plane as all the other planets do, so no one bothered to do any serious search for planets that may be lurking outside the 12 constellations of the Zodiac! This discovery will be a major blow to astrologers who prepare personal horoscopes based on the positions of the Sun, Moon and all the planets - a number that keeps on increasing! >A giant ice lake on Mars! The discovery of a permanent lake of ice water in the bottom of a large deep crater located in the polar region of Mars is not that uncommon. Since this lake of ice water is isolated from the polar ice cap to the north, I would have expected that this ice water would have disappeared completely through sublimation just like the whitish frost that sometimes forms even in the equatorial regions of Mars. Maybe it is being replenished by flowing liquid water from just below the surface of this crater. The Phoenix Mars lander which scientists, including many from York University in Toronto, plan to launch in 2007 is designed to determine just how much ice water there really is just below the surface of Mars when it lands in this same northern polar region. >Active water volcanism on Saturn's moon! >History books being re-written faster than kids can flunk the >tests in the old ones! Cassini's ongoing exploration of the rings and satellites of Saturn, including Titan which the European spaceprobe Huygens landed on continues to baffle and amaze planetary scientists too. >If we now have officially ten planets it's better than even >money that we'll find more. It would be scary if we find >millions more. >Stranger things have happened! We have now discovered far more planets orbiting other stars, including a few planetary systems not unlike our own, than there are planets, including satellites, asteroids and other large bodies in orbit around our Sun. In the coming years, spacecraft such Kepler and the Terrestrial PlanetFinder are expected to detect the first Earth-like planets (rocky and no the gaseous giant extrasolar planets discovered so far) around distant stars. I predict there will be a couple of these Earth-like planets discovered orbiting around the two Sun-like stars of the Zeta Reticulli system where alleged ET visitors came from who abducted Betty and Barney Hill back in 1961 - the same year the first Earthlings (Soviet cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin and U.S. astronaut Alan Shepard) ventured into space in rockets built to deliver nuclear warheads... >Is science finally catching up to Ufology? >Will the Feds finally put the Space Shuttle in mothballs and >break out the 'real' spacecraft? >Who knows, but so far this year science and Ufology have been >getting more entertaining! If the truth were to be made known, science and science fiction would be indistinguishable to most of us. There are people who know about this truth who are still not talking openly or at all, even many decades later. Fortunately there are many scientists, researchers who are experienced observers outside the loop which have observed and recorded objects travelling through our skies that move much faster and much higher than anything we have. We know that the 25 year old Space Shuttle is not the best we have or even had back in 1981 when it first flew in space for the first time. Check out Michael Schratt's excellent paper based on his research about just _one_ such advanced top secret project that was retired back in 1967 http://www.usafflyingsaucers.com/ Below is a short quote from page 4 of his paper that will help serve to make the point [my comments are in square brackets]: "THE CANADIAN CONNECTION: During WWII, Germany had become the undisputed leader in highly advanced aircraft technology. The Me-262 jet interceptor... [One was buried intact in a now dried out swamp near the end of a runway of Downsview Park which was once CFB Downsview, one of the places where German engineers and their hardware were brought to before moving on to the U.S. in Operation Paperclip] ...Horten flying wings, and the Me-163 rocket powered aircraft were decades ahead of allied designs. Under the direction of Dr. Walter Dornberger, the man in charge of operations at Peenemunde, and Dr. Wernher von Braun's boss, a secret saucer program was started at the BMW/Heinkel factory in Dresden in 1943 [There are letters in the National Archives from German engineers who worked on these flying saucers that were looking to come to Canada]. This design team was headed by Dr. Richard Miethe, who worked for the BMW rocket division in Berlin. Dr Miethe's team was ultimately responsible for the manufacture of the incredible discs that Jack saw at MacDill AFB in 1967. It can now be revealed, that these discs had been originally built in Germany in the fall of 1943, with the first flight occurring during the spring of 1944. After the close of WWII, many German aeronautical engineers were sent to White Sands Missile Range under "Operation Paperclip". The remaining group of scientists, were captured by the Russians. It can now be revealed that the Soviets reached the German plant in Breslau before the Americans, and quickly dismantled many factories, rebuilding them in Russia. It's clear now that the Soviet Union had it's own saucer program (derived from captured German scientist) which explains many of the over- flights in the United States. [Also in the National Archives in Ottawa I found a copy of a German newspaper article dated June 7, 1952 that was attached to a letter addressed to the War Department. A loose translation of part of this article states: "...a report of a German V Waffen Engineer, Dr. Richard Miethe, at present living in Tel Aviv, who is supposed to have said: 'I dare to state that flying saucers, which appear in the sky, were constructed in Germany according to my own specifications and most probably are now built in series by the Russians.'"] Dr. Richard Miethe was sent to Fort Bliss, and later worked at Wright Patterson AFB. Eventually, Dr. Miethe went to work for John C. Frost of the Avro Aircraft Company (a subsidiary of Hawker Siddeley) in Malton Ontario Canada. Mr. Frost was a gifted aircraft designer from England, who headed up Avro's "special projects group" in 1952. Avro was currently working on at least 16 different "Flying Saucer" proposals, (see illustration #29 and #30) including project Y and project Y2 (aka "Project Silverbug"). [A fellow ufologist has obtained a picture of what is the Silverbug in flight over an unidentified urban area!] Project Silverbug was a design for a supersonic VTOL flying disc. By 1953, John Frost and his team had completed most of the "paper studies" on these highly unusual aircraft. [In Wendelle Stevens book, 'UFO Crash at Aztec', there is a detailed account of one downed ET(?) flying disk that was recovered outside Washington, D.C. in the early 1950s and was shipped to Avro in Malton (Toronto) so it could be used to reverse engineer a flying saucer of our own] The only problem facing Mr. Frost, was the overwhelming costs involved in the development of these designs. It quickly became clear that only one country was capable of providing the necessary "financial backing" to "foot the bill" for Avro's flying saucer programs. USAF Lt. General Donald L. Putt had been briefed on the incredible performance specifications of these aircraft, and visited the Avro Canada plant on September 16, 1953. Not wanting this incredible technology to be acquired by any other nation, the U.S.A.F. officially took over and financed Avro's saucer program in late 1954. This allowed the Air Force to "farm out" it's own saucer program on foreign soil, while at the same time keeping the project strategically close to the United States. [One of these flying saucers built at Avro has been tracked to a aircraft spare parts dealer and aviation enthusiast west of Toronto] By 1955, Dr. Miethe had completed construction of the disc shaped aircraft he had originally built in Germany in 1944. These were the exact aircraft reported as "flying Saucers" in the U.S. during 1947. The first test flight of this USAF/Avro disc, occurred in Malton in 1955, with additional test flights taking place at Edwards AFB. [One of these Avro cars is on public display at a museum in Fort Eustis, Virginia. Someone on the UFO UpDates list told me of a filing cabinet there that contains evidence that the Avro car did much more than just hover as many believe] Now we know who built the "Flying Saucers" that Jack saw at MacDill AFB in 1967. Mystery solved! [These U.S.A.F. flying disks look uncanningly like "America's Nuclear Flying Saucer" that was revealed in 'Popular Mechanics' which, to my surprise includes a picture of a helium balloon carrying what looks very much like the horseshoe shaped VTOL
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 1 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:45:08 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 08:20:06 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Sparks >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:48:36 -1000 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:17:14 EDT >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:58:01 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:28:32 EDT >>>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:06:01 -1000 >>>>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:48:30 EDT >>>>>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>>>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>>>>>>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook <snip> >>>>A more reasonable conclusion is that Stone knew what FOIA >>>>requests to repeat because he copied Bob Todd's or followed the >>>>trail Todd blazed years before him. >>>Now you overlook two possibilities here. One that Stone may have >>>assisted or influenced Todd and Peter Gersten in doing FOIA >>>requests concerning Project Moon Dust. A second is that Stone >>>and Todd had independently followed their own lines of research >>>and come up with similar results. >>The truth is the third alternative, that Robert Todd was on the >>trail of Project Moon Dust in 1978 based on documents he had >>obtained by FOIA and not based on any purported contact or info >>from Stone who was not in contact with Peter Gersten yet in 1978 >>and who was not then even purportedly serving on Moon Dust in >>1978. As you had noted in an earlier post but forget all >>about here, Stone's (bogus) claim is that he served on Moon Dust >>from 1979 to 1989. Here is where I got the 1979-89 Moon Dust dates for Stone's alleged Moon Dust crash retrieval work: --- SALLA POST JULY 26: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/jul/m27-006.shtml Aloha Larry, <snip> If Stone is accurate in his claim of having served on UFO crash retrieval teams and of being given access to the guidebook by his handler for ten years between 1979 and 1989.... --- >>Bob Todd had already in 1978 obtained the following AF response >>admitting the existence of Project Moon Dust in an official >>letter of Nov. 13, 1978, by Col. Albert W. Schumann of SAFOI >>replying to Todd's letter of Oct. 21, 1978: >>"This is in response to your letter of October 21, 1978 >>requesting information on MOONDUST and BLUEFLY." >Wrong. This official letter is not admitting the existence of >Project Moon Dust at all. No you're wrong once again. I had already quoted from this AF letter in a previous post. The AF's Col. Schumann confirmed to Todd in 1978 that Moon Dust (and Blue Fly) existed, as follows on Moon Dust: --- DEPARTMENT OF THE AIR FORCE WASHINGTON 20330 OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY 13 November 1978 [Mr. Robert G. Todd] ... This is in response to your letter of October 21, 1978 requesting information on MOONDUST and BLUEFLY.... MOONDUST is a program in which the Air Force provides technical assistance in determining the origin of space debris, U.S. or foreign.... Sincerely, ALBERT W. SCHUMANN Colonel, USAF Deputy Chief Community Reations Division Office of Information --- >>So Bob Todd already knew of Moon Dust as of Oct. 21, 1978. <snip> >Stone clearly states in Kevin Randle's Project Moon Dust book >that he not did receive his Moon Dust information from Robert >Todd (p. 157). So even if it was only in 1979 that Stone spoke >to Gersten, it may have been Adams and Barker who relayed this >information to Todd and Gersten after 1977 when they learned of >it through Stone. >>What was an Army man (Stone) doing on an Air Force project >>anyway? There is no mention in Stone's Army clerk-typist >>military records of being assigned to another military service, >>the AF. >That's a good question.... But you don't answer it. The question was why the alleged service with the AF was not registered in Stone's Army military records. The existence of the US Air Force was not classified. The alleged service in another military branch should have been noted in Stone's Army military career service records, even if the exact classified project name was omitted for security reasons. At least the service with the "Air Force" is required to be noted in the Army records, for reasons of military command responsibility (to avoid AWOL and desertion charges, etc.), payroll accounting, etc. And by the way, Project Moon Dust was _not_ an Unacknowledged or "waived" Special Access Program. It was an ordinary classified project with an unclassified nickname "Moon Dust" not a code name, which is why the unclassified nickname "Moon Dust" was released in various State Dept and DIA cables in 1978. Many different agencies of the US Government needed to know who would retrieve downed satellites and "Moon Dust" was the name that was disseminated without the hindrance of a classified code name. For the same reason, classified Project code name "Grudge" was replaced with the unclassified Project nickname "Blue Book" on March 25, 1952, for the specific purpose of being able to release it widely to the public and press, unlike classified code name "Grudge" which could not be released. >According to an earlier interview with >Paola Harris, Stone explained that his regular army commanders >were not aware of his assignments on the UFO retrieval teams >which involved him being periodically called away from his >regular Army assignments. Stone recounts several episodes where >that led to tension since he was often suspected of going AWOL >and had much explaining to do with his regular military >commander. There is no "explaining to do" at all, if Stone had gone AWOL (allegedly for Moon Dust retrievals of UFOs) numerous times over a period of many years his military records noted with the numerous AWOL periods, and he would have been court-martialed. All of which could have been avoided if his alleged properly-authorized service with the "Air Force" had simply been noted in his Army records and posting orders, without any need to record a classified mission code name, just noted as "USAF service." But his Army records show no such "USAF service" or anything of the sort in his Walter Mitty confabulations. <snip> >>>First, there is no evidence that Todd learned of the discovery >>>of Project Moon Dust at Fort Belvoir. This is something that >>>Stone established by initiating correspondence between the >>>office of Senator Bingaman and the US Airforce [in 1991]. Stone >>>established the location of Project Moon Dust at Fort Belvoir >>>and that is a significant acommplishment. I don't see why you or >>>Brad Sparks should jump to conclusions such as Stone "ripping >>>off" Todd's work. What evidence do you have to show for that >>>other than Brad Spark's imagination? [sic] >>If you were more familiar with fundamental UFO history you would >>not make such uninformed and erroneous statements. If you >>bothered to read and familiarize yourself with David Jacobs' >>classic UFO history, The UFO Controversy in America, published >>in 1975 by Indiana Univ. Press and in 1976 as a Signet >>paperback, you would learn that, and I quote Jacobs (Signet p. >>134): >>"... the Air Force used the 1127th Field Activities Group >>stationed at Fort Belvoir, Virginia" (which is in the >>Washington, DC, area) >There is no mention of Project Moon Dust. You forgot that Moon Dust was assigned to the 1127th according to the Betz memo that Bob Todd got released in 1979, long before Stone in 1991. The Betz memo states that Moon Dust was an AF "intelligence team" assigned to the 1127th Field Activities Group, which was at Ft. Belvoir, as was well known to anyone who bothered to read the Air Force UFO Regulation AFR 200-2 as revised in 1959 (as Bob Todd did), as printed in Tacker's 1960 UFO book, or who read the revised AFR 200-2 in various NICAP publications in the 60's, or who read Jacobs' 1975/6 book as I quoted above. I referred to historian Jacobs because you should have been familiar with the original professional history of the UFO controversy done by an academic historian. >>As I pointed out in a previous UpDates post, Bob Todd in 1979 >>obtained the following AF Intelligence (AFCIN) document of Nov. >>3, 1961, defining Moon Dust and UFO responsibilities assigned to >>the 1127th Field Activities Group at Ft. Belvoir, Va., which is >>"in the Washington area." Here are some relevant excerpts: >>--- >>SUBJECT: (U) AFCIN Intelligence Team Personnel 3 NOV 1961 >>2. >>c. In addition to their staff duty assignments, intelligence >>team personnel have peacetime duty functions in support of such >>Air Force projects as Moondust, Bluefly, and UFO, and other >>AFCIN directed quick reaction projects which require >>intelligence team operational capabilities (see Definitions). >>e. Unidentified Flying Objects (UFO): Headquarters USAF has >>established a program for investigation of reliably reported >>unidenti- fied flying objects within the United States. AFR 200- >>2 delineates 1127th collection responsibilities. >>f. Blue Fly: Operation Blue Fly has been established to >>facilitate expeditious delivery to FTD of Moon Dust or other >>items of great tech- nical intelligence interest. AFCIN SOP for >>Blue Fly operations, February 1960, provides for 1127th >>participation. >>g. Moon Dust: As a specialized aspect of its over-all material >>exploitation program, Headquarters USAF has established Project >>Moon Dust to locate, recover and deliver descended foreign space >>vehicles. ICGL #4, 25 April 1961, delineates collection >>responsibilities. >>6. >>a. Headquarters USAF (AFCIN) maintains intelligence teams as a >>function of AFCIN-1E (1127th USAF Field Activities Group). >>h. ... USAF personnel assigned to organizations other than the >>1127th within the Washington area.... >>--- >This is where it gets confusing since, according to Randle, >there are two versions of the 1961 letter. Todd's version had a >hand written statement on it saying it "was a draft proposal and >that it was never implemented" (p. 156). Consequently, Todd's >version did not prove anything due to the handwritten note. That is nonsense. Read Para. 2g (above) of the 3 Nov 1961 "Betz memo." Project Moon Dust had _already_ been established and its intelligence collection responsibilities already set forth as of the date of the AFCIN (AF Intelligence) ICGL #4, 25 April 1961, over 6 months before the Betz memo. The Nov 1961 Betz memo, thus recites _actual history_ of which AF units were _already_ in the past assigned what responsibilities on UFOs and Project Moon Dust as of 25 April 1961 for Moon Dust (and July 1959 for UFOs). They were assigned to the 1127th, according to the Betz memo, and it does not matter which alleged "version" of the Betz memo is used, the past history facts remain the same. You are some twisted piece of work to try to make something out of this draft/no-draft version business! It certainly does "prove" what the actual history was for the pre-existing and already established UFO and Moon Dust field team investigations by the 1127th at Ft. Belvoir, which Bob Todd uncovered in 1978-9. Are you going to tell me that they could change the past, change the facts about Moon Dust and UFO investigations already having been assigned to the 1127th??? Was changing past history part of the "proposal" that was "never implemented"??? Here is Leslie Kean's summary of Stone's FOIA efforts on Moon Dust which shows Stone came along in 1989, 10 years after Todd's 1978-8 FOIA investigations: "Beginning in 1989, Sergeant Clifford E. Stone, US Army ret., of New Mexico wrote to fourteen intelligence agencies for records on Project Moon Dust and Operation Blue Fly under the Freedom of Information Act. Many of the documents cited here were obtained through his efforts."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 1 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:00:20 -1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 08:26:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Salla >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:49:06 EDT >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:21:13 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:34:09 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:01:01 -1000 >>>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:04:15 EDT >>>>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:05:24 -1000 >>>>>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC ><snip> >>>>>>http://www.cia.gov/csi/kent_csi/docs/v03i4a05p_0003.htm >>>>>>Certainly, Cutler was clear about the role played by the "NSC >>>>>>Operations Coordinating Board." Cutler viewed it as integral >>>>>>part of the NSC system and part of the NSC itself. ><snip> >>>>>Cutler viewed the OCB in his retrospective history as he left it >>>>>and the NSC in 1958 when he resigned as Special Assistant to the >>>>>President for National Security. >>>>>By 1958 the OCB had been merged into the NSC whereas before July >>>>>1, 1957, the OCB had functioned as an "independent agency" like >>>>>the CIA was an "independent agency." CIA employees do not get to >>>>>put "NSC Staff member" on their resume's!!! >>>>EO 10483 establishing the OCB in 1953 certainly referred to the >>>>OCB as an "independent agency" but functionally it was part of >>>>the NSC created to coordinate efforts between different >>>>government agencies and military departments for a coordinated >>>>National Security policy which was why the NSC was created in >>>>1947. >>>The CIA was also an 'independent agency' created with the NSC in >>>the same law in 1947 (National Security Act) to "coordinate >>>efforts between different government agencies" for the NSC and >>>it directly reported to the NSC. Yet the CIA was never a part of >>>the NSC. CIA employees do not get to lie on their resume's and >>>say "NSC Staff member"! >>Your 'revised' history of the CIA is wrong. Here is what the >>1947 National Security Act says about the chief functions of the >>CIA: >Your history is "wrong" and you are misleading readers of this >list with the current 2005 version of the National Security Act >rather than the 1947 version that was relevant to the time period >in the 50's under discussion. The CIA "functionally" reported to >the NSC and functionally "coordinated" matters just like the >OCB did, yet CIA employees and managers did not get to lie on >their resume's like Corso and claim they worked on the prestigious >high-level "NSC Staff." do not see how citing the current version of the National Security Act somehow misleads members since amendments can be identified. If you have something to add to the evolution of the National Security Act concering the creation of the CIA that helps clarify your argument, then please go ahead. I find your style reminiscent of a high debate where there's a premium on scoring points to impress an audience rather than a sincere analysis of the topic at hand which is Col Phillip Corso's contention of having served as a staff member to the NSC. Since you demonstrate no intent to abandon your argument that Corso lied about being a staff member to the NSC, let me summarize the independent evidence that conclusively demonstrates that Corso was certainly not lying when associating the OCB with the NSC and describing himself as a staff member of the NSC. There are a number of independent sources supporting Corso's contention of having served as a staff member to the NSC. First there's the FBI report on Corso. In a Nov 2, 1965 letter to Mr Deloach (Hoover's Special Assistant) by M.A. Jones, describes Corso's background as follows: "Operations Coordinating Board (OCB), National Security Council." You have consistenly refused to acknowledge the significance of this FBI report which is independent confirmation that Corso's service on the OCB during the years 1953-56 was well understood by his contemporaries as part of the NSC. Your attempts at historical revisionism based on a rigid reading of the EO that formally put it in the NSC (EO 10700) does not negate this reference which clearly shows that service on the OCB prior to EO 10700 was widely understood to have been part of the NSC. As I have said before, the political culture of Corso's contemporaries understood that the OCB was part of the NSC and that Corso was not out of line in claiming to be an NSC staff member. Second there is the Senate Select Committee on POWs that refers to Corso as having served as a staff member to the NSC. This is what it says: "Lt. Col. Phillip Corso (USA, Ret.), of the National Security Council staff under President Eisenhower." While you and others contend that the Senate Committee simply accepted the bio handed to them by Corso, it serves as another clear reminder that Corso's service on the OCB was understood by his contemporaries as an agency strongly associated with the NSC. While the nature of this association evolved up to EO 10700, the association was always clear and accepted by Corso's contemporaries. Why would a prestigious serviceman such as Corso go before a Senate Select Committee and state a bold faced lie if it could be easily demonstrated that the OCB was never part of the NSC as you contend? No one challenged Corso's claim to having served on the NSC simply because it was accepted by his peers that service on the OCB qualified as service to the NSC regardless of its legal evolution from 1953-1957. Finally, we have Robert Cutler description of the OCB over the years 1953-58 in which it served on it as Eisenhower's Special Advisor where he clearly stated how it was (first functionally and then by EO) part of the NSC. This is what Cutler said: "Under President Eisenhower, the normal procedure for operating the policy-making aspects of the NSC mechanism has involved three main steps. ... Finally, the President approves, modifies, or rejects the Council's recommendations, transmits those policies which he approves to the departments and agencies responsible for planning their execution, and-as a rule where international affairs are concerned-requests the NSC Operations Coordinating Board to assist these departments and agencies in coordinating their respective planning for action under the approved policies.... During the period 1953-1958, with which I am familiar, the great bulk of national security policy determinations were made by the President through the operations of the NSC mechanism just described." http://www.cia.gov/csi/kent_csi/docs/v03i4a05p_0003.htm The first thing to note is Cutler's description of the "NSC Operations Coordinating Board". Earlier in this thread you claim that Cutler was giving a retrospective history. That is a fallacious argument since Cutler clearly is describing the NSC mechanism from 1953-58 and clearly identifies the OCB role in that. That period includes Corso's service and clearly points out that the OCB was informally part of the NSC prior to its formal incorporation in 1957. That's three strikes against your rigid argument that the OCB was not part of the NSC during Corso's service, and therefore Corso was lying. Rather than seek to distract mine and the list's attention to red herrings such as whether CIA members could equally claim to be NSC staff members, I assert that each of these three sources offers independent corroboration of Corso's claim of being a staff member of the NSC by virtue of his assignment to the OCB. You have offerred no example of an independent official or record claiming that Corso lied with regard to his claim of being a staff member of the NSC by virtue of his assignment to the OCB. Even the FBI which clearly was seeking to prevent Corso from being appointed as a staffer to a Senate Committee in the mid 1960s acknowledged his service on the NSC OCB. You have offered nothing to support your argument and ignore the independent evidence that back ups Corso. I think you need to abandon defense of an argument based solely on a very rigid historical argument that may earn a B+ in a graduate history class but fails to properly deal with the above three independent sources of evidence clearly back up demonstrate. Calling someone a liar is clearly an extraordinary claim that requires solid evidence. The evidence you have provided in terms of citing EO 10700 merely adds a level of complexity to the history of the OCB but does not prove your point. Your argument is weak and an example of historical revisionism that is deeply biased. Your claim that Corso is a liar is a very strong claim supported by a weak historical argument that overlooks a host of contrary evidence. Essentially, you have provided a weak argument to support a strong claim. In that sense, your effort to dismiss Corso's credibility is a failure. In conclusion, I've clearly made my point that Corso's service on the OCB and its association with the NSC entitled him to make the claim that he was a staff member of the NSC. In that sense, Corso's testimony is consistent with the historical record and his credibility is intact. I have contended that the association between independent agencies such as the OCB are much more fluid than you suggest by your rigid argument. The above three sources support my argument that the OCB was functionally part of the NSC in the years 1953-56 and that Corso's peers understood that quite well. Corso statements concerning his assignment as a staffer to the NSC bolsters his credibility as a whistleblower and should not in any way by any membership. I will now offer some brief responses to what you say below. >Here is what the National Security Act of 1947 actually stated in >1947 and through the 50's, the time period that is actually relevant >to Corso's lies about purportedly working as an "NSC Staff" member >in 1954-6: >--- >SEC. 102(a) There is hereby established UNDER the National >Security Council [NSC] a Central Intelligence Agency [CIA].... >102(d) For the purpose of COORDINATING the intelligence >activities of the several Government departments and agencies >in the interest of national security, it shall be the duty of the >Agency [CIA], UNDER the DIRECTION of the National Security >Council [NSC]-- >(1) to advise the National Security Council.... >(2) to make recommendations to the National Security Council >for the COORDINATION of such intelligence activities.... >(5) to perform such other functions and duties ... as the National >Security Council may from time to time direct. >--- Let me remind the list that you first raised the issue of the CIA to make the contentious point that CIA staff members had as much right as Operations Coordinating Board (OCB) staff members to claim to be staff members of the NSC. I initially pointed out that the CIA was a statutory agency passed by Congress, while the OCB was an agency created by Executive Order and therefore not a statutory agency with the power to issue regulations that had to be enforced. This meant that the OCB was clearly dependent on the President and the NSC which created it to have its recommendations carried out. Cutler describes the OCB as part of how NSC mechanism operated. In contrast, the CIA had significantly more autonomy due to it being created by statute and therefore having the statutory authority to pass regulations that Federal authority. Furthermore, the CIA had as its primary function assisting the DCI. Consequently, it is mistaken to equate the CIA and the OCB despite the latter's designation as an independent agency that reports to the NSC. That was my point but it seems you are intent on demonstrating that a staff member of the CIA during the years 1953-1956 had as much right as Corso to claim to be a staff member to the NSC. That's a moot point since the issue at hand is Corso's reference to being part of the NSC. As far as the original 1947 NSC Act is concerned in terms of the relationship between the CIA and the DCI, the pertinent section which you don't include in the above is what follows: Sec. 403-1. Central Intelligence Agency There is a Central Intelligence Agency. The function of the Agency shall be to assist the Director of Central Intelligence in carrying out the responsibilities referred to in paragraphs (1) through (5) of section 403-3(d) of this title. -SOURCE- (July 26, 1947, ch. 343, title I, Sec. 102A, as added Pub. L. 104-293, title VIII, Sec. 805(b), Oct. 11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3479.) So the CIA clearly had as its chief function assisting the DCI in the performance of a range of duties some of which involved reporting to the NSC as the paragraphs you cite above point out. This does makes it clear that the above sections you cited were not the exclusive function of the CIA. >So the CIA does "report" to the NSC and "coordinate" matters for >the NSC in the relevant 50's time frame, just like the OCB where >Corso worked in 1954-6. Yet CIA staff do not get to lie like Corso >on their resume's and claim they worked for the higher-ranking >impressive-sounding NSC. Again, comparing the CIA and the NCB is like comparing apples and oranges since one was created by statute and the other by EO. They had differing degrees of autonomy, power and functions as far as the NSC is concerned. >>There is no mention of the CIA reporting to the NSC in the >>previous paragraphs which stipulate that the CIA was created to >>serve the Director of the Central Intelligence as the head of >>all the intelligence community comprising the intelligence >>services of the various military departments and government >>agencies. There was no statutory requirement for the CIA to >>report to the NSC. That is a fiction you have created to support >>your fallacious reasoning. > >As the Nat Sec Act actually stated in the 50's, as I quoted above, >the CIA does "report" to and serves directly "under" the NSC and >it does "coordinate" matters for the NSC in the relevant 50's time >frame, just like the OCB where Corso worked in 1954-6. Yet CIA >personnel do not get to lie like Corso on their resume's and claim >they worked for the high-level impressive-sounding NSC. As I have claimed, the CIA is a statutory body while the OCB was an independent agency created by Executive Authority. You are comparing oranges and apples here. >Your ignorance of basic national security history and structure is >as astounding as it is appalling. Yours is the "fiction" that is >totally "wrong," as apparently you are incapable of distinguishing >between what the National Security Act of 1947 originally stated >and how it read _in the 50's_ the time period that is relevant to >this thread rather than how it reads today in 2005. > >Or else you know exactly what you are doing by foisting the 2005 >version of the law on us knowing full well that it has been reworded >by numerous revisions especially since 9-11, that the version as it >stood in the 50's completely verifies what I said, and you thought >you could just get away with a fast one and snow people by making >it look complicated, when it is very simple. Your use of hyperbole demonstrates may earn you points in a high school debating program but doesn't help in investigating Corso's claims and the OCB. The history of the CIA is really a distraction from the core issue which is the status of the OCB, not the CIA. I do not know of any CIA employee claiming that s/he is an NSC member by virtue of serving on the CIA in the period at question. That's a hypothetical situation that you have raised which is best a distraction. >>Well the answer may come from one of the Majestic Documents >>where the First Annual Report of the Majestic Twelve Project >>states that "MAJ-Com-1 with assistance of the Panel [Majestic 12 >>Group] persuades the President to establish the Psychological >>Strategy Board on 4 April 1951" (Majestic Documents, ed. R & R. >>Woods, p. 114). So why would Majestic 12 recommend the creation >>of the PSB and have it housed in the State Department rather >>than the Old Executive Office building with other NSC >>committees? My guess is that MJ-12 was created as an independent >>agency as recommended by Truman's leaked memo of Sept 24, 1947 >>and an alleged Presidential Directive of 26 September that >>established the MJ-12 group according to the "First Annual >>Report". In order to maximize secrecy, MJ-12 was likely formally >>independent but functionally was at the apex of the NSC when it >>came to issues associated with UFOs and the ETH. My guess is >>that if we pursue the control and genesis of the PSB and the OCB >>we end up with a clearer picture of how MJ-12 was run and its >>links with the NSC. >It is typical that you use "guesswork" based on preposterous and >ridiculous forged documents such as the MJ-12 "1st" Annual >Report that is so laughably bad that it can't even keep the >numbering of the alleged (bogus) "annual reports" straight, as >the "1st" annual report should be in 1948, not in late 1952 (the >latest date of the forged contents within the report). I don't see why refering to Majestic Documents reference to the Psychological Strategy Board as created by the Majestic-12 committee is preposterous. We have a leaked document with contested authenicity that refers to the creation of the forerunner to the OCB. I think it is an interesting connection to explore given Corso's service on the OCB. >What ridiculous hogwash you recite as if it was authoritative >official records. This bogus MJ-12 "1st" Annual Report refers to >agencies that did not even exist yet in 1947 or 1952 as carrying >out such things as Roswell-related "radiation monitoring >flights" in NM in 1947 supposedly done by "AFTAC" an agency that >was not even created until 1959! >This is just what a 90's era lazy hoaxer who had no real >knowledge or understanding of intelligence history or military >history, or to do any historical research, might throw together, >not realizing or caring that agencies existing in the 90's (like >AFTAC) did not exist with the same name - or exist at all back in >the time being invented for the MJ- 12 hoax documents. >Likewise the ignoramus hoaxer of the MJ-12 "1st" Annual Report >screwed up on the claim that the "Armed Forces Security Agency" >(AFSA, NSA's predecessor) had "First Five Years" of its >intelligence activities to digest and report (in 1952). But AFSA >did not exist in 1947 or 1948. AFSA was created by JCS Directive >in 1949. That's 3 years not 5 years. >The dumbbell hoaxer of the MJ-12 "1st" Annual Report also >recklessly threw in the kitchen sink as to the scope of the >AFSA's alleged intelligence activities (on UFO's of course), >making it into some kind of superspy Gestapo agency while not >knowing what he was talking about in tossing around confused >mumbo-jumbo terminology. He claims that AFSA had 5 years of >"Signals, Radar, Communications and Human Intelligence >Operations in the First Five Years." In fact AFSA was another >highly ineffectual agency, which required replacement by the >NSA, and its only intelligence activity was Communications >Intelligence (COMINT, and did not have Radar or Human >Intelligence (RADINT and HUMINT) operations. The hoaxer was so >stupid he didn't even know the difference between these >categories, as Signals Intelligence (SIGINT) includes COMINT and >you don't list both of them together as if separate and >different. What you say above is moot and is more appropriately discussed in a new thread. >>>This is double-talk and you know it! You've been caught cold, >>>dude! Admit it. Corso inflated his resume' with a non-existent >>>"NSC Staff" service when his military records prove he merely >>>served on the OCB. ><snip> >>>All that double-talk is belied by the fact that William H. >>>Jackson in 1956 had to conduct a study as to why the OCB was not >>>functioning effectively. The reason was simple: The OCB did not >>>have the authority of the NSC and the President behind it! The >>>OCB was not a part of the NSC so its suggestions for >>>"coordination" were ignored by the national security agencies >>>and departments. The concept of OCB getting "voluntary >>>cooperation" was not working because OCB had no NSC power to >>>enforce. It's a simple concept which any poli sci professor >>>should be able to grasp instantly. >>This merely proves my point that functionally it was clear that >>the OCB was part of the NSC >That's pure double-talk! Jackson's report as approved by >Eisenhower proves that the OCB was _not_ functioning as part of >the NSC and that it needed to be. You think you can twist any >fact of history around to its exact opposite meaning and get >away with it, but you're wrong, you're not going to get away >with it. This again is incorrect. You ignore what Robert Cutler said concerning how the OCB operated as part of the NSC mechanism. He was merely giving a factual description of the OCB's activities and how it worked with the NSC during the years 1953-58. It was clear that the NSC mechanism appeared to function appropriately and that there was more at play than merely giving the OCB more institutional clout since it's clear from what Cutler said that it was already part of the NSC mechanism so the NSC was the real power behind the OCB. You conveniently ignore this with your citation of Jackson's reform making it appear that the OCB was just an agency with no real authority. That's nonsense, the NSC was always behind the OCB as is clear from its establishing EO and Cutler's description of it. >Then you have the nerve to quote Jackson saying and confirming >exactly the same thing I have said (below) but act like it >somehow supports you. It does not. >>and that's where it belonged rather >>than being housed in the Department of State. Jackson was on the >>record in 1954 for strengthening the OCB by statutes that would >>formally put it in the NSC. >As you now admit the OCB was not "in the NSC" in 1954 when Corso >was on staff with OCB, and that one idea was to put the OCB into >the NSC "by statutes" because of the fact it was not then part >of the NSC. Jackson did not say "formally" put into the NSC, as >if somehow the OCB was already "informally" part of the NSC >already. You slipped that word "formally" in. If the OCB was >already informally functioning as part of the NSC it would not >have had problems getting its coordination plans enforced among >the departments and agencies of the government by "voluntary >cooperation." OCB lacked the NSC's clout because it was not part >of the NSC and Jackson sought to rectify that by merging the OCB >into the NSC, as much as you wish to nullify that fact of >history behind Eisenhower's Executive Order 10700 merging the >OCB into the NSC on July 1, 1957, a year after Corso had >departed the paper- tiger ineffectual OCB. This is nonsense as Cutler's description of the OCB makes clear. It was part of the NSC system from 1953-58 when he served on it. The OCB was informally part of the NSC, and the NSC was the final authority behind OCB policies. Again, you ignore the evidence that is contrary to your argument. >The OCB was not functioning "informally," de facto ("as a fact" >or in practical day-to-day reality) as part of the NSC -- if it >did it would have had the "de facto" day-to-day practical >reality of the power of the NSC, but it did not, it was an >ineffectual paper tiger paper-pushing org, and that's why >Jackson had to seek to get OCB merged into the NSC in 1957. Nor >was the OCB structured "formally" de jure on the org charts as >part of the NSC as you even are forced now to admit. Jackson >wanted the OCB merged with the NSC so it would finally have >NSC's backing and authority automatically. Again let me repeat what Robert Cutler, Eisenhower's Special Assistant said about the OCB: "Under President Eisenhower, the normal procedure for operating the policy-making aspects of the NSC mechanism has involved three main steps. ... Finally, the President approves, modifies, or rejects the Council's recommendations, transmits those policies which he approves to the departments and agencies responsible for planning their execution, and-as a rule where international affairs are concerned-requests the NSC Operations Coordinating Board to assist these departments and agencies in coordinating their respective planning for action under the approved policies.... During the period 1953-1958, with which I am familiar, the great bulk of national security policy determinations were made by the President through the operations of the NSC mechanism just described." Clearly the OCB was part of the NSC mechanism in place for implementing NSC decisions as well as having to report to the NSC. ><snip> >>>Thus Jackson reported back to Eisenhower on Dec. 31, 1956, and >>>Jan. 3, 1957, that the OCB needed to have Presidential (or Vice- >>>Presidential) authority via the NSC to back up its orders, and >>>so the OCB needed to be "integrated" directly into the NSC >>>functionally. The OCB was not part of the NSC and thus had no >>>power or authority to enforce its orders. Once OCB was part of >>>the NSC it would be able to issue direct orders in the name of >>>the NSC. Eisenhower agreed and ordered OCB merged into the NSC >>>July 1, 1957, by his Executive Order 10700. >>>Do you get that? The President had to personally intervene to >>>make the OCB part of the NSC - long after Corso was long gone >>>from the OCB. >>Now this is where you again err. What do you think the OCB was >>doing prior to its formal incorporation into the NSC? It was >>reporting to and implementing NSC decisions, just the same as >>after it's statutory incorporation into the NSC. >You don't know what you're even talking about. The OCB was not >"implementing" NSC decisions, that was the whole problem. You >still refuse to "get it" because it destroys your precious liar >boy Corso to have to recognize the truth. OCB was not >functional, not effective, because it did not have the NSC's >power, and had to solicit "voluntary cooperation" of other >agencies. That's why Jackson intervened with the President to >get OCB merged into the NSC. As I have repeatedly said, you ignore what Robert Cutler had to say about the OCB and how it was part of the implementing mechanism developed by the NSC. So the OCB was both reporting to and implementing NSC decisions. You ignore this point since it damages your weak argument that Corso was lying. >You are so off the wall here you apparently can't even tell the >difference between an Executive Order of the President (10700 >which merged OCB and NSC) and the bogus "statutory incorporation >[of OCB] into the NSC" which you refer to. There was no >"statute" incorporating the OCB into the NSC. It was an >Executive Order. Statutes are laws passed by Congress. This is >sloppy desperate argumentation by someone who has utterly lost >the argument and is trying to kick up whatever dust he can as a >smokescreen. Again, your use of hyperbole is a unwelcome distraction and your language reflects your own desire to bolster a weak argument. Nevertheless, you are partly correct. I agree, it is not accurate to refer to the "statutory incorporation" of the OCB into the NSC since it was incorporated through EO 10700 rather than an Act of Congress such as the 1947 National Security Act. Nevertheless, Executive Orders have legal authority and are recorded in the Code of Federal Regulations so the point I was making was obviously that an authorized legal action was taken to incorporate the OCB into the NSC. I certainly could have used a more appropriate wording but the point was clear. >>>Later histories and FBI references from the 60's look back on an >>>OCB that ended its days as a part of the NSC from 1957- 1961. >>>But Corso was with the OCB only from 1954 to 1956, when OCB was >>>a "voluntary cooperation" type of paper-tiger agency that was >>>not a part of the NSC. He cannot claim to have been an "NSC >>>Staff" member. His claims were a lie pure and simple. He had no >>>more right to claim being an "NSC Staff" member than any CIA >>>employee or manager does just because the CIA coordinates for >>>the NSC and reports to the NSC. > >>As I said earlier, despite the evidence that I and others have >>given you that it has been standard practice for members of the >>OCB and historical researchers to refer to the OCB as part of >>the NSC throughout its history from 1953 to 1961. You insist >>that only EO 10700 made it part of the NSC in 1957. ><snip> >False! None of these others such as Cutler and the FBI memo >said the OCB was part of the NSC "throughout its history from >1953 to 1961." Quote them saying "1953 to 1961"!! You can't >because they never said such an absurd, historically and factually >false thing, falsified by EO 10700 making OCB part of the NSC >only in 1957. That is incorrect, I have twice quoted Cutler and he refers to the years 1953-58 when the OCB was part of the NSC mechansim for implementing decisions. So the OCB by the 1953 EO creating it, had within its mandate to report to the NSC, and as Cutler describes it, was part of the implementing mechanism for the NSC. So functionally it was part of the NSC before 1957. Your argument falls apart with Cutler's clear description of the OCB functions yet you doggedly ignore this. >Corso lied repeatedly in claiming he had served on the >illustrious "NSC Staff," when in fact he served on the paper- >pushing OCB instead, at a time when it was not a part of the NSC >and lacked the NSC's power and authority (1954-6). CIA employees >are not allowed to say they worked for the "NSC Staff" when the >CIA was exactly parallel to the OCB, in reporting to the NSC as >an "independent agency." I have already responded to this above. Let me say in conclusion, that I have enjoyed the opportunity to review the history and functions of the OCB with you in order to determine the veracity of Corso's claims. I find your use of hyperbole an unwelcome distraction and hope in future you tone this down in order to better analyse with others the claims of whistleblowers such as Philip Corso. Personally, after reviewing all the documents and arguments so far I have to conclude that your argument is very weak and ignores abundant contrary evidence supporting Corso's claim of being a staff member of the NSC. Given that your claim that Corso is liar is a very strong claim to make, I would expect you to come up with much stronger arguments to support it. Your argument that everything prior to the 1957 EO that formally incorporated the OCB into the NSC meant that no one who served on the OCB was entitled to refer to themselves as a staff member of the NSC is very weak. The independent evidence from the FBI files, Senate POW hearing, Cutler's writing, all support Corso. I find it extraordinary that you would call such a well credentialled military servicemen a liar simply because of your propensity to historical revisionism based on your own subjective criteria that ignores contrary evidentiary sources. You are way overboard with your claims regarding Corso and I hope my efforts here have alerted some on this list to the weakness of the argument that Corso lied when it came to his claims of being an NSC staff member.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 1 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:32:57 -1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 08:54:19 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Salla >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:50:38 EDT >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:58:01 -1000 >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:28:32 EDT >>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:06:01 -1000 >>>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 11:48:30 EDT >>>>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook >>>>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>>Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:10:52 -1000 >>>>>>Subject: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook ><snip> >>>Okay, but I hesitate to get involved in this because you simply >>>won't listen. No matter what evidence is offered, you spin it so >>>that your favorite "whistleblower" is the victim of >>>governmental efforts to suppress the information and attempts to >>>suggest otherwise have some sort of nefarious motivation. Here >>>it is but you're not going to like it. >>Ok, we've had disagreements. You've stated your case on some of >>the key whistleblowers I've used for my research, I've stated my >>own perspective. I didn't find your arguments concerning Phillip >>Corso, Clifford Stone and Robert Dean to be compelling. >>Interestingly, you conclude that I'm the one not listening since >>I don't accept your arguments. I guess other possibilities are >>not worth contemplating. >There are others but I was too polite to mention them. ><snip> >>>>You are clearly dismissing Stone's claims of having served on >>>>UFO Crash Retrieval teams such as Project Moon Dust. The >>>>implication is that Stone never did any of the training he >>>>claimed, nor served on any of the Crash retrieval assignments he >>>>claimed. The conclusion therefore is that Stone is embellishing >>>>what appears to have been a rather pedestrian military career. >>>>And of course you dismiss Stone's claim that his military >>>>records were altered. The implications are that at best, Stone >>>>is simply deluded, or at worst he is a publicity seeking liar. >>>I vote for number two. SFC Stone offered no evidence that his >>>records have been altered other than his claim. And I doubt that >>>you have asked for any evidence of the same. >>>But let's say that you decide to check my background and you >>>write to the big records center in St. Louis. And, let's say >>>that you find my claim to have been trained as a military police >>>officer to be questionable. When the records arrive (those parts >>>that are considered to be public record), you find no >>>indications of training in military police. >>>You ask for clarification and I say that my records, for >>>whatever reason, have been altered. But, to prove that claim, I >>>offer certified copies of the graduation certificate that I >>>received at the completion of the training, I can provide copies >>>of the course work to show it's completion, and if you travel to >>>Ft. Leonard Wood and go into the Military Police School, you >>>find my class footprint (which is the plaque we donated) >>>includes both my name and my photograph with the rest of the >>>class. >>>In other words, I can prove it beyond the military record and I >>>don't have to claim my records have been altered. It could be >>>just a case of the clerk being too busy inventing tales to take >>>proper care of his assigned duties. >>Forgive me but where is the analogy here with Stone's case? Your >>training as a Military Police Officer is not classified is it? >>Nor is the existence of contingents of military police that are >>deployed on various assignements classified either is it? So >>there would be no need to have your records concering your >>training and deployments altered on the basis of national >>security. In contrast, both the training and the existence of >>groups involved in the retrieval of crashed disks is claimed to >>be highly classified. Something that is very reasonable given >>the existence of waived Special Access Programs whose existence >>is a secret. >The point here was that if there were holes in the records, I >have other ways of proving it. Stone should have copies of >orders that would note his needing to be absent on another >assignment without necessarily spelling out what that assignment >was. School, even those of a classified nature have generic >names and certificates are issued. While it wouldn't of >necessity say it was Project Moon Dust training, it would have >some sort of training but Stone has offered nothing like that, >insisting, instead, that his records were altered. You make a good point. I have mentioned in my response to Brad Sparks how Stone was recalled from his normal military duties to perform specialized retrieval operations or training. http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/jul/m31- 001.shtml . Stone has pointed out in subsequent interviews that there was no paper trail and he often had problems explaining his absence to his regular army commmander. This suggests that what you pointed above didn't apply to the duties performed by Stone. He would simply receive a phone call or some other message and go off on the retrieval assignment without documentation. This means that he could easily be disciplined for being AWOL unless those in the hierarchy who knew about his alleged retrieval duties covered for him. The covert system Stone describes appears to be an excellent way to maintain secrecy and minimize the risks posed by military servicemen who become whistleblowers. >>As the 1991 letter to Senator Bingaman denying the >>existence of Project Moon dust suggests, Moon Dust is highly >>classified and the documentary trail is pretty thin. Stone's >>claims concerning the alteration of his military records is >>plausible given the classified nature of the training and >>deployments of crash retrieval teams he claims to have been >>recruited for. >But there are no gaps in his records. Everything is accounted >for. I say that his absences, even of a classified nature would >be noted. There are people claiming to have been awarded >"secret" medals because they were on classified assignments. >This is why there is no record. But the truth is that even those >on classified missions and received awards for valor have them >noted=E2?=A6. yes, the notations are generic and the actions cited >less than detailed, but the point is that there is some kind of >record. Stone produces nothing of the kind, insisting the record >is altered. He should be able to produce orders, certificates, >some sort of document that relates, in a very generic sense to >his "classified" training. And not copies of documents, but >originals. As I said earlier, there is no paper trail since Stone would simply recieve a message to begin a new assignment that typically took a week according to his testimony. >>>>However, you fail to mention in your response some of your >>>>earlier research concerning Sgt Stone (ret). This is what you >>>>say about Stone and Project Moon Dust in chapt 8 of your book >>>>(available online at: >>>http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/moondust.htm >>:>( >>>>'When United States Senator Jeff Bingaman asked the Air Force >>>>about a classified project called Moon Dust, Lieutenant Colonel >>>>John E. Madison of the Congressional Inquiry Division, Office of >>>>Legislative Liaison, wrote, 'There is no agency, nor has there >>>>ever been, at Fort Belvoir, Virginia, which would deal with >>>>UFO's or have any information about the incident in Roswell. In >>>>addition, there is no Project Moon Dust or Operation Blue Fly. >>>>Those missions have never existed.' What the documentation, now >>>>available thanks in part to the Freedom of Information Act, and >>>>the pioneering work of Clifford Stone, tells us is that >>>>Madison's letter to a United States Senator is, at best, >>>>inaccurate.' (p. 151). >>>>So Stone's 'pioneering work' was able to show how Lt Col Madison >>>>was covering up the existence of these classified projects >>>>designed to recover crashed UFOs. You then point out how Stone >>>>was able to correctly identify the location of Project Moon Dust >>>through his FOIA requests: >>>Brad Sparks noted that Stone would have learned of Moon Dust and >>>Blue Fly the same way anyone else in UFO research would have - >>>FOIA docs released in the 70's through no help from him, >>>including several docs in the CIA lawsuit release in Dec 1978, >>>such as State Dept and DIA cables mentioning Moon Dust efforts >>>to recover downed Soviet satellites. >>Now I find this to be very interesting. You have authored a >>book, Project Moon Dust, and in fact refer to Robert Todd on a >>number of occassions (pp. 154-57). In your research you were >>clearly aware of the earlier research efforts on Project Moon >>Dust by Todd. Yet you still referred to Stone as a "pioneer" in >>the release of documents concerning Project Moon Dust through >>FOIA (p. 150). Were you wrong then and right now in following >>Brad Spark's current tune? If you are right now, does that mean >>you simply hadn't done adequate research in writing a book on >>Project Moon Dust? You can't simply say Stone misled by not >>crediting Todd since you already were aware of Todd's work which >>you did reference. Did you speak or communicate with Todd at all >>in researching your book? What did he say and why did you refer >>to Stone as the pioneer in Moon Dust research rather than Todd? >>Why do you simply dance to the tune Brad Spark's is playing >>without coming out with more information on what it was Todd >>learned and the role played by Stone? >I said then that Stone had provided me with the documentation, >which was true. I obtained documents on my own as well, >including a long microfilmed history of the 4602d. Stone, was >right there, filing his own requests=E2?=A6 but it was you who >suggested that given Stone's background and his success, this >proved he was an insider. Brad and I suggest that he didn't have >to be an insider to get to that point, and that information to >help him was already in the public arena. What I suggested was that Stone's pioneering FOIA work demonstrated an inside knowledge that bolstered his claims of having worked on the secret retrieval of crashed UFOs. Since we are currently debating whether Stone's FOIA work was pioneering or simply "ripping off" other FOIA researchers like Todd, then the ultimate answer to this will either support or detract from Stone's credibility as a whistleblower. >I'll let Brad hand you the timelime, showing that others had >done some of the original spade work. But the point, the major >point, is that knowing about Moon Dust does not prove that Stone >was on the inside. I responded to Brad Spark's timeline and found he had misunderstood Stone's alleged service on the retrieval teams, as well as not knowing the role played by Stone in releasing Project Moon Dust information through Tom Adams and Gerry Barker in 1977: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/jul/m31-001.shtml Based on what I have learned so far, I contend that Stone was the 'deep throat' ultimately responsible for Project Moon Dust being learned by researchers such as Robert Todd. Todd's FOIA work was not succesful in proving Project Moon Dust's existence and ultimately it was Stone who achieved this through his persistant FOIA requests despite opposition from his regular army superiors. ><snip> >>>I will point out that his analysis wasn't always supported by >>>the information. Once he told me that the Chilean Air Force had >>>fired missiles at a UFO and hit it without doing any damage. >>>What the report actually said was that the Chilean Air Force had >>>fired missiles at a UFO without result which could have meant >>>that they missed it. >>Stone has provided sufficient documents concerning Project Moon >>Dust to establish his credibility as a researcher. It seems that >>you are doing something similar to Brad Sparks in that you are >>trying to dismiss Stone's credibility as a whistleblower by >>arguing that his earlier UFO research was not as original and >>important as first thought by reseachers. That to me is pretty >>disingenous since Stone's FOIA research is a matter of the >>public record and one can simply purchase a copy of his book, >>UFO's are Real and decide how important his earlier research was >>given the extensive documentation in it. Given your own earlier >>support for Stone's pioneering work, and Stanton Friedman's >>comments in the preface to Stone's book, Stone was clearly well >>regarded by his peers at the time of writing his book. What >>changed? Stone decided to spill the beans on his own involvement >>in these projects, and become a whistleblower. >No, No, No. I am suggesting that you can't say Stone must have >been on the inside because he knew of the documents and secured >copies through FOIA. I am saying, once again, that he was >tenacious as a researcher into these matters, but that does not >prove he had been a member of a classified Moon Dust team. >Stone's research and knowledge of these matters is great, but >what changed was that he injected himself into the middle of >this claiming to be something that he is not. I'm glad you acknowledge Stone's extensive knowledge of Project Moondust matters. You have a point that even in the best case that Stone's FOIA work on Project Moon Dust was pioneering, that doesn't prove he was an insider. He may have been as you say just a tenacious researcher who somehow got wind of Project Moon Dust through others, and began doing FOIA work on the leads he received. All that Stone's 'pioneering' or 'tenacious' research shows is that he gained much information over the years concering UFO issues as a result of courageous FOIA work that landed him in trouble with his army commanders. Nevertheless, while his successful FOIA work may not 'prove' Stone was an insider, it is evidence bolstering his claims of being an insider. Along with Stone's pioneering work, there is also the matter of precisely what he told researchers such as Tom Adams and Gerry Barker in 1977 concerning Moon Dust. If they can confirm what occured, that may give us an idea if Stone was ultimately the "Deep Throat" that revealed Moon Dust. However, since 'Deep throat' was revealing the classified code name of a classified project, then that may be difficult to prove since deep throat could be punished for such a disclosure if it were proved. >>>So, what we have, in reality, is Stone telling me how he had >>>gathered all this information, but forgetting to mention that he >>>had followed in the footsteps of others, most notably Robert >>>Todd. Stone's work wasn't pivotal, but Todd's was. >>Have you bothered to do any research into the relationship >>between Robert Todd and Clifford Stone? Todd, Stone and Peter >>Gersten were in touch in the late 70s over FOIA and Project Moon >>Dust. Who was helping who? I'd like to learn myself by talking >>to either Robert Todd or Peter Gersten. Instead, you simply >>accept Brad Spark's claim that Stone 'ripped off' Todd's >>research. There's no foundation for that other than Spark's own >>imagination. >Because there is documentation that suggests Todd was in some of >these places first. Stone followed his path. The real point, >once again is that you suggested his knowledge of Moon Dust >proved that he was on the inside, otherwise how would he know. >We're saying that others had learned about it without inside >knowledge so it does nothing to prove Stone's other claims. I addressed this issue in my reply to Brad Sparks concering the timeline, and also showed that Todd did not prove Project Moon Dust existed. Todd had gained a version of the 1961 Betz memo that mentioned Project Moon Dust, but this had, as you observed in your book, handwriting scrawled across it this was a proposal never implemented. So Todd's version didn't prove anything other than Project Moon Dust was a proposal. In contrast, Stone's version of the 1961 Betz memo didn't have the handwriting on it saying Project Moon Dust was a proposal. This led to controversy as some like Barry Greenwood contended that Stone had deliberately erased the handwriting as you point out in Project Moon Dust. It was Stone who secured the key 1973 State Department document that led to Project Moon Dust finally being declassified as explained in a letter he received from the USAF in 1994 which is reproduced in his book, UFOs Are Real. >>>>The inconsistency here between what you say in your 1998 book >>>>and what you say later when Stone came out openly to reveal his >>>>active role in Project Moon Dust is pretty clear. >>>There is no inconsistency. Stone had the documents, shared them >>>with me and deserved the credit for doing so. However, when he >>>began to inject himself into the middle of the operations, >>>claiming expertise that he didn't have and telling tales that >>>clearly were not true, then it was time to say something more. >>Let's do a little background here. In his 1997 book, Stone said >>he would reveal "more in a forthcoming book about my life and >>involvement within the Aerial Phenomena Field" (UFO's are Real, >>p. 47) . Your own book Project Moon Dust appeared in 1998 and >>acknowledged Stone's book. So you must already have been aware >>that Stone had already stated that he was involved in the >>"Aerial Phenomena Field" and would be more forthcoming later. So >>when Stone publically injected himself into the crash retrieval >>projects by becoming a whistleblower, this was not a sudden turn >>around by Stone but something consistent with what he had >>earlier said. Despite this consistency in Stone's behavior, I >>find your a priori dismissal of Stone's testimony to be >>inconsistent with the documentation Stone brought forward. One >>of the keys to Stone's credibility as a whistleblower is his >>documentary research through FOIA requests, and that does lend >>credence to his later claims regarding being personally involved >>in crash retrieval projects such as Moon Dust. >Here's a question, since you believe that Stone was on the >inside of Moon Dust for his military career and that the reason >he was able to locate, through FOIA, the information which now >proves his insider status=E2?=A6 What's the new code name for Moon >Dust? If he's on the inside, he should know it. >Since you say you read my Moon Dust book, let me point you to >page 154 and you'll read, "We know from released documents that >Moon Dust wasn't discontinued. Its code name was changed after >it was compromised. Robert G. Todd, in a letter from the Air >Force dated July 1, 1987, learned that the "nickname Project >Moon Dust no longer officially exists." According to Colonel >Phillip E. Thomspon, deputy assistant chief of staff, >Intelligence, "It [Project Moon Dust] has been replaced by >another name that is not releaseable. FTD's duties are listed in >a classified passage in a classified regulation that is being >withheld because it is currently and properly classified." >So, it seems to me that if Stone has no trouble telling of >secrets that he has been swore to keep, that he is willing to >spill his guts about the 57 varieties of EBEs out there, he will >surely tell us this classified name=E2?=A6 for, if he was on the >inside, he should know it. Now this would have to be the silliest thing you've said so far. If Stone is an insider and knows the code to the successor of Project Moon Dust, then he would be jailed for revealing the classified name of a classified project. In short, the successor to Project Moon Dust is almost certainly an unacknowledged Special Access Program where both the program and its name is classified. Revealing the name of such an unacknowledged SAP is a federal offense which you must be aware of as a former Military Intelligence Officer and recent MP training. So what's you point in challenging Stone to reveal this classified information to prove his insider status? You are asking him to break the law and risk incarceration to prove something that he has already occurred in the past with the disclosure of Project Moon Dust. ><snip> >>>As Sparks notes, Stone was in contact with FOIA lawsuit attorney >>>Peter Gersten at the same time Bob Todd was doing research for >>>Gersten in the late 70's and 80's. I suggest Stone found out a >>>lot about Todd's FOIA efforts that way, including info not >>>published by Todd or Gersten (Todd collected so many 10,000's of >>>pages of FOIA documents and letters to/from the AF and many >>>other agencies there was simply no way to publish it all). >>>A more reasonable conclusion is that Stone knew what FOIA >>>requests to repeat because he copied Bob Todd's or followed the >>>trail Todd blazed years before him. >>Now you overlook two possibilities here. One that Stone may have >>assisted or influenced Todd and Peter Gersten in doing FOIA >>requests concerning Project Moon Dust. A second is that Stone >>and Todd had independently followed their own lines of research >>and come up with similar results. This commonly happens in >>scientific research, ask Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz who >>discovered integral calculus at the same time independently of >>one another. >So, where once you said that you believed Stone because he had >found various documents through FOIA that only his insider >status could find, you now suggest that Todd, working >independently of Stone, without an insider's knowledge could >have found these same documents. Doesn't that then suggest >that Stone didn't have to be an insider either and therefore, >his discovery of these documents, if independent of Todd, only >proves his tenacious attitude but does nothing to corroborate >his now wild tales? Yes, that's a good point and well reasoned. My conclusion is that there needed to be 'deep throat' in the revelation of Project Moon Dust. Someone in the military who was aware of Project Moon Dust and leaked it to UFO researchers. Based on my conversation to Clifford Stone on July 30 where he told me that he had passed on information about Project Moon Dust in 1977 to Tom Adams and Gerry Barker, then it is very possible that Stone was the 'deep throat'. If correct, then that would definitely bolster Stone's claims concerning him being secretly assigned to UFO crash retrievals throughout his military career. ><snip> >>Ironically, I think this exchange is the reverse of our earlier >>positions concerning the importance of documentary evidence. >>Here I'm basing my case on Stone's credibility as a >>whistleblower on his FOIA documentary research which is a matter >>of the public record and can be analysed and evaluated. You have >>based your response on a series of conjectures and opinions not >>based on anything other than your own and Brad Sparks' rather >>callous dismissal of Stone's testimony. Neither you nor Brad >>Sparks has offered anything to establish the thesis that Stone >>had somehow "ripped off" another researcher's work and basically >>misled an "innocent" UFO community ignorant about Project Moon >>Dust. As the author of a book on Project Moon Dust, you want us >>to now believe that you were one of those most misled by the >>wily Sgt Stone despite your own research efforts and citation of >>Robert Todd and others involved in Project Moon Dust research. >>Now you are dancing to the right piper played by Brad Spark's >>startling revelation that somehow Stone ripped of Todd Robert's >>work! Where's the evidence for this claim other than Spark's >>imagination and propensity for historical revisionism. >>Stone's FOIA documentary research was highly regarded by his >>peers in the UFO community, including initially yourself, and >>does help establish his credibility for his later public >>statements about participating in the classified projects such >>as Moon Dust. Brad Spark's imagination seems to be currently >>playing a more appealing tune for you rather than Stone's well >>grounded documentary research. I find that to be rather ironic >>given our previous communications. >There are two issues here. No one is denying that Stone did some >fine work in securing documents about Moon Dust. He was very >tenacious in that work. He sent FOIA requests to everyone under >the sun and he obtained some very good results. >But, that is not the same thing as working on the Moon Dust >teams, or working on the inside, claims for which he has >provided no documentation. You believe that his work in cracking >through the paperwork barrier somehow provides credibility to >those claims. I say that one does not support the other. >So, once again, if he was on the inside, he can tell us the new >code name for Moon Dust. I await the answer. At that point, I >will reevaluate my thinking on Stone and be forced to admit that >he might have some inside knowledge. You already know what I think about your challenge to Stone to provide the new code name for Moon Dust. In conclusion, Stone's 'pioneering' and/or 'tenacious' does not prove he worked on UFO retrieval teams such as Moon Dust as you say. At best, it is evidence that supports his claims of being an insider. Nevertheless, his pioneering FOIA work certainly lends him a certain degree of credibility and I'm glad you acknowledge this without going to the next step of saying that this proves he was an insider. If more research is done on who was the 'deep throat' that revealed the existence of Moon Dust to researchers back in the 1977-79 period, then that might give further clues about Stone's alleged insider status. I thank you for your ability to discuss these issues over which we disagree in a dispassionate way without resorting to the kind of emotional hyperbole of another UFO researcher with whom I'm presently discussing whistleblower issues. You certainly come across as an officer and a gentleman and I wish to acknowledge that.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 1 The 43rd National UFO Conference From: Lisa Davis <lisadavis.nul> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 00:33:59 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 09:16:05 -0400 Subject: The 43rd National UFO Conference PRESS RELEASE: UFOs over Hollywood: The 43rd National UFO Conference Touches Down Again Hollywood, CA -- According to a 2002 Roper Poll, over two-thirds of the American public believe their government is withholding information about UFOs and 60 percent of adults want the information declassified. The government has insisted that UFOs do not constitute a national security threat, while refusing to formally deny an extraterrestrial explanation and stubbornly keeping most UFO related information hidden from the public. Investigators, journalists, doctors and authors will present their findings at the Renaissance Hotel, 1755 North Highland Avenue, Hollywood, CA on September 2-4, 2005. Representing a serious, long-term approach to the greatest mystery of our time, the group will present case evidence, documentation and current status of knowledge on the subject. Declassified records clearly indicate some UFOs are not science fiction. Trained observers pilots, air traffic controllers, radar operators, astronauts, military personnel -- and government agencies have reported and documented spectacular unknown objects visually, photographically and on radar. Some have landed and left ground traces in Europe and the United States which have been studied by scientists. Popular national journalist and former CNN news anchor, Cheryll Jones will be this year s Master of Ceremonies. One of this years speakers, Grant Cameron, will show how the American government has tried to hide evidence and circumvent civilian research inquiries for decades. Cameron will also show how the issue of UFO's has impacted every presidency since Roosevelt. Author and documentarist, Lynne D. Kitei, M.D., will present the results of seven years investigating the sightings with photo and video documentation by hundreds of Phoenix citizens of enormous triangular craft over Arizona in 1997. She is the producer of the new, award winning (New York Film Festival) documentary, The Phoenix Lights. Despite a probe launched by a Phoenix City Councilwoman and a lawsuit in 2000, the Department of Defense maintained it had no information about these triangular objects. Other lectures will look at the history of scientific research into unidentified aerial phenomenon and present formerly classified government documents illustrating the national security concerns of the US government over the phenomenon. For prospective attendees with limited knowledge of the subject matter, a free lecture UFOlogy 101 will be given Friday at 1:00 on the second floor of the Renaissance hotel. Executive Director, Lisa Davis believes the American public deserves to have objective information on this compelling topic. The unbelievable number of accounts and sightings by logical, coherent, sane persons worldwide on the subject are so astonishing there is no need for speculative theories or sensationalism, says Davis. We have enough data to convince anyone with a high school education that something strange is indeed taking place . Details on additional speakers and topics are posted at: www.nufoc.org. Press passes and interviews can be arranged through The National UFO Conference Executive Director Lisa Davis. Day Passes to all lectures are just $25 per day. The National UFO Conference (NUFOC) Renaissance Hotel Hollywood, CA September 2-4, 2005 1755 North Highland Ave. Hollywood, CA www.nufoc.org Contact NUFOC: (858)523-1068 Lisa Davis Executive Director The National UFO Conference
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 1 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 04:37:27 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 09:17:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Sparks >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:57:03 -0700 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:00:14 EDT >>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>Don, >>You were right the first time and the answer you were given was >>completely false, misleading by exchanging the word "nuclear" >>for "atomic." The Colonel in the book (p. 106) does in fact >>claim there was an "atomic pile" in the flight that crashed in >>New Mexico in mid-1947. >Brad, >If you look carefully at my answer to Don's question, it was >relative to his _specific_ question about the key incident that >led to the Roswell event - namely, the balloon-glider test. >He thought that there was an atomic angle to this, and I pointed >out that there wasn't. There was _nothing_ atomic or nuclear >about the specific Roswell incident at all. >It was just a failed attempt to launch a balloon-glider hybrid >and see if it was a feasible project. It wasn't, it failed and >crashed. But no atomic angle. >The event that you are talking about that the Colonel discussed >re. Reis and Morhard was a crash in May 1947. This was nothing to >do with Don's question, which is why I explained there was no >such atomic angle to the Roswell event. <snip> You are flatly evading Don's questions with lawyer-type hairsplitting tactics. Don's questions on the "atomic pile" still apply with equal force to the alleged "first" crash of late May 1947, the one that does have the Colonel claiming an "atomic pile" was flown and crashed, even if Don had not thought to apply the questions to that "first" crash but was thinking the "atomic pile" was allegedly in the Roswell "second" crash, in July 1947. Here are Don's questions posted July 22, which you cut off from the posting, now reapplied to the purported late May 1947 "crash" of an airborne "atomic pile" at White Sands, with some editing to delete the offending Roswell references, etc.: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/jul/m22-023.shtml The whole balloon/ Horton flying wing contraption makes no sense for use in the terrible experiment being conducted - if it was conducted. As one researcher has noted it's like a rubber Zodiac boat towing a nuclear submarine. The whole "atomic pile" experiment could have been carried out on the ground. I am really surprised that no one has questioned the fact that in Nick's scenario this contraption would have been released with no safeguards in place. No chase planes or any monitoring from the ground. It was just released and let the chips - or atomic pile - fall where it may? Doesn't anyone think that this would have been rank stupidity on the part of the scientists and aeronautics team conducting the experiment? What if this thing had crashed in a town or city nearby? The atomic pile? What happened to that? It would have been very heavy, thereby necessitating a huge balloon envelope to get that and the glider and occupants aloft. And perhaps the pile was leaking after the crash; it was constructed, after all, to leak its radiation on the crew. Any indications from the original Roswell scenario that anyone was injured by radiation? [Yes here Roswell does apply, does anything in the Roswell stories support radiation injuries at a White Sands crash or any place?? The theory is supposedly that the White Sands and the Roswell crash stories got confused and conflated together.]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 1 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:35:54 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 09:19:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:00:26 -0700 >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:26:57 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch <snip> >>The fact that the stories your sources fed you are >>creating such holes should be a big red warning flag that your >>sources, almost all former military psyop/counterintelligence >>people whom you also admit mostly know one another, are >>deliberately giving you a bum steer. >Which again I have never denied is a possibility and which is >why I am trying to provide as much data as possible as it comes >in. But several questions: >1. Why target someone with disinformation when that person (me) >wasn't even doing Roswell research in 1996 to 2001 when the >initial accounts were given to me? Why do government disinformation agents have to target Roswell researchers? In your July 25 posting you said they would have been "putting [this disinformation story] in the public domain." Which is it, targeting Roswell researchers or the public? Why can't it be both? Surely you can't seriously think that you would be of no interest or use to UFO disinformation operations, given your background as a journalist and UFO author. >2. Why would disinformation people create _another_ scenario for >Roswell when the Mogul Balloon and Crash Test Dummy scenarios >are still in place? That would only generate more suspicion (not >less) that the Air Force was lying. Your new scenario for Roswell still includes balloon debris from a top secret military project, and still claims the strange bodies are from another crash in NM at another date, not at Roswell, so it really is not too different from the Mogul Balloon and Crash Test Dummy scenarios. In fact your "Colonel" states "Mogul is just a convenient cover," so Mogul is a part of this new scenario, as a cover story or "diversion" for it (p. 134). In your book you report that the purpose of the UFO disinformation was to cause "confusion" among UFO researchers (pp. 84, 89) by "flooding the UFO community with a mass of confusing, contradictory and outright bogus stories" (p. 89), by "muddying the waters" (p. 173). Thus even if this new Roswell scenario did outright contradict the earlier Mogul story this would only help add "confusion" and "muddy the waters," just as the government disinformation plan presumably intends. Whether this is done to "mask" the "truth" about Roswell's "true nature" (p. 172) or to fool the Russians for purely Cold War reasons (p. 173) is a separate issue. >3. Why try to deflect interest from Roswell by saying they had >undertaken diabolical experiments on human beings? Again - >regardless of whether or not people believe the testimony - that >would only focus more attention on Roswell. See answer above, it sows "confusion" in the UFO community, which has been entangled in controversy over Roswell, virtually paralyzing its UFO research progress in other areas. So by focusing more attention on Roswell it is adding gasoline to the fire, making the Roswell-based confusion and chaos worse. >4. Why the need to create a further cover story anyway? I ask >that because when I was doing this research there were no big >Roswell revelations on the horizon that had to be discredited by >the official world. And most of those involved directly in the >incident are dead now anyway, and not available for interview. >So why the pressing need to come up with a disinformation angle? See previous answers (above), your own Colonel said Mogul was a cover story for this Fugo/Horten story. Again, see answer to No. 1, who is the target anyway? Roswell researchers, UFO research community in general, or the public, or the Russians, or some or all of the above? You just nitpick the one target audience on "Roswell revelations" needing to be discredited, whereas it is the UFO community that is being discredited. Again, sowing "confusion" in the "UFO community" is an admitted "disinformation" program according to your own book and your own sources (p. 89, etc.) and not necessarily the targeting of some particular "Roswell revelations on the horizon." You should pay more attention to your sources' claims and your own writing. The answers are there (as the Osh commercial says). >5. Also, 2 of the interviewees flatly refused to consent to >interviews for 18-months after I first spoke to them - hardly >the stance of a team of disinformation specialists that want to >get this story out there. In your July 25 post you admit that you did "get off the record, brief statements/data revelations from them" during this supposed "flat refusal" period (which was actually only about 16 months from July 28, 2001, to Dec. 6, 2003, by looking at the dates of your interviews in the back of your book as you told us to do). So it was not a complete blackout of information (or disinformation). Uh, did you happen to notice that 9-11 happened shortly after this near-hiatus with your "sources" after July 28, 2001? Covert operations no doubt had to be seriously re-evaluated and put on hiatus or terminated in light of 9-11, which forced a rethinking of covert ops objectives and strategy. This is what gets me about the UFO community, that it makes no effort to see its subject matter in the context of broader world events. It's as if there is a special "UFO world" that exists in its own vacuum with barely any awareness of a Korean War, McCarthy era, civil rights struggle, Vietnam War, counterculture period, etc. But then in 2002-3 another factor intervened, and that was the massive expansion of the covert ops budgets of the various agencies, so that they are now awash in secret ops cash. This is resulting in the lowering of operational approval standards so that now all sorts of harebrained schemes can be funded whereas in the past they couldn't get the time of day. And previously marginal ops that had to be put on hold can now go forward with
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 1 Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:20:33 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 09:29:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - Shell >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:38:38 -0700 >Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars >Still, I detect a silent bias, something akin to a religion, >against even simple life forms. Many scientists would be >thrilled to find it yes, then they could come out of the closet. >Question remains: Why the closet? >Nowadays (at long last) scientists will discuss the likelihood >of life in the vast distant reaches of space. >Do you sense a sort of mind-set something like: "That's OK, as >long as its far enough away"? Absolutely! I've wondered for years why this mind-set. It makes little sense. You find a similar mind-set among anthropologists and archeologists. When the so-called hobbit skeletons were found in Indonesia there was a lot of excitement. I watched a National Geographic TV special about them, and found the same old same old. Sure these little guys could have lived on some islands until very recently, even within the memories of some elderly people, but they certainly couldn't still be around. That attitude is astonishing, particularly when there are many credible reports of "orang pendek" in the same area, a little erect-walking primate the same size as these skeletons! This mind-set of "it's OK so long as it is at a safe distance in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 1 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:33:38 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 15:08:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 04:37:27 EDT >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >You are flatly evading Don's questions with lawyer-type >hairsplitting tactics. Brad I'm not evading anything, and nor would I. There would be no point to me evading the question, because all of the data is in the book on the May 1947 atomic event, for anyone and everyone to see! So why on earth would I avoid discussing something that I have openly written about, and that people could prove I had written about??!! Regardless of whether or not people accept the data of the interviewees, the scenario that they talk about is of 6 or 7 experiments (and maybe a few more) in the NM desert in 1947. Roswell was only _one_ of those events and was not connected in any way with anything remotely atomic. At all. Don's question specifically focused upon 1 of those 6 or 7 (or maybe more) experiments, namely Roswell, and I answered his question re the atomic angle as it related to Roswell. If Don had asked his question about the _whole_ issue of what the sources said about the _other_ crashes/collective crashes, I would have addressed those. But as the only case brought up was the _specific_ one about Roswell, that was the basis and reasoning for my reply. Also, bear in mind (See Don's later posts), I had no idea that Don was asking these questions at that time without having even read the book. I presumed that because he was asking specific questions about an atomic pile at Roswell, that he had read the book and was confused on this issue. Had I known then that he hadn't seen the book, but was assuming that there was an atomic connection at Roswell based upon - perhaps - the erroneous assumptions of others, I would have elaborated further. >I am really surprised that no one has questioned the fact that >in Nick's scenario this contraption would have been released >with no safeguards in place. No chase planes or any monitoring >from the ground. Huh? No one says there _wasn't_ monitoring. According to the Colonel, the May 47 crash occurred _on_ White Sands. In other words, it had to have been monitored because the aircraft never even left White Sands airspace. He further states that the Armed Forces Special Weapons Project "are there;" to coordinate and contain the crash site. Note: "are there." Not: "arrived later." What if this thing had crashed in a town or city >nearby? Why would it crash in a town? This was strictly an up-and-down on a military range, towed into the air and released for a controlled landing that only failed because of a crash on landing. Very different to the Roswell event where the thing was out of control because the aircraft became partly detached from the balloon array and went off-range, and the pilot had no control over the vehicle when he was only able to partly detach it from the balloon array. So the off-range crash of the aircraft in the July 1947 case was dictated by the fact that it was still affixed to the balloon array, and where the balloons went, the aircraft went too. The White Sands case was a controlled flight in White Sands airspace - no balloon angle at all to go wrong - that seemed to only go wrong when the vehicle flipped on the ground or a problem on approach. Incidentally, there is a letter brought to my attention published in the Letters Section (under the heading "Roswell Craft Was A Glider") in the May 2003 issue of "Fate," from someone who also talks about Roswell being a glider. Although there are some differences, he/she makes a connection between the glider and the 82nd Airborne Division; and according to the Colonel, personnel who had served with the 82nd in the War were later involved in the White Sands event in some capacity. The "Fate" person talks about a "Master Sergeant Burtholf" knowing something about this. A lead that may be worth following. >The atomic pile? What happened to that? It would have been >very heavy, thereby necessitating a huge balloon envelope to get >that and the glider and occupants aloft. And perhaps the pile >was leaking after the crash; it was constructed, after all, to >leak its radiation on the crew. Any indications from the >original Roswell scenario that anyone was injured by radiation? No, of course there were no indications of anyone injured by radiation in the original Roswell scenario because - as I keep saying - there was _no_ atomic angle to Roswell. According to the Colonel, the way in which the White Sands case had, years later, become intermingled with the Roswell case was _specifically_ with regard to the body descriptions - _not_ the atomic angle. See his comments in the final paragraph on page 108, where he carefully confirms this. >[Yes here Roswell does apply, does anything in the Roswell >stories support radiation injuries at a White Sands crash or any >place?? The theory is supposedly that the White Sands and the >Roswell crash stories got confused and conflated together.] Again, as per my reply above, it was specifically the "body" descriptions from White Sands that got intermingled with the Roswell story - not the atomic angle. The Colonel was very careful to stress that - as per last paragraph, page 108. >How did they lose the atomic pile? To the best of my knowledge, no atomic pile _was_ lost. Who said that they lost it? Why would they risk losing something that Nick's book posits was such a grisly experiment >as to be deemed a national disgrace if ever it was found out? No one is saying that they would _want_ to risk losing it. But at some point, if a flight had to be undertaken, then there are inevitably going to be risks. And as we know from the "human radiation experiments" of that era, there was hardly a high regard for human safety in that field. Similarly, no one would have wanted the U2-spy-plane to fall into the hands of the Russians. But to gather required data from over-flights of the Soviet Union, risks had to be taken. For the most part, this was ok. The Gary Powers affair, however, showed that, sometimes, risky flights such as this have bad endings. Life is a risk; and risks have to be taken sometimes to further advance technology, data-gathering techniques, espionage, etc. We might also ask: why risk doing all the other absolutely scandalous "human radiation experiments" that surfaced under the Clinton administration in the 1990s from the same era of the 1940s? Some of these were undoubtedly a national disgrace; civilians were put at risk; and it's not impossible that an enterprising journalist could have uncovered this at the time. But it didn't stop the people involved from going ahead with them though. And as I said in a previous post of a couple of days ago: I find it highly illuminating that the Colonel talks about the US military utilizing Morhard's atomic pile research for something connected to the May 1947 flight. And I now have documentation confirming that Morhard spoke with Colonel Gasser (NEPA) in 1948 about his research - at Wright. Then in 1949, Gasser discusses with the FBI his apparent knowledge of pre-1949 attempts of the US to build flying saucer like vehicles, and his opinions on atomic powered saucers. Did some of Gasser's apparent knowledge on this come from US people allied to the post-Morhard research? That's what is now being looked into re certain FOIA research. See the link below for interesting imagery/data:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 1 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:52:17 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 15:12:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Redfern >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:35:54 EDT >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >Why do government disinformation agents have to target Roswell >researchers? In your July 25 posting you said they would have >been "putting [this disinformation story] in the public domain." >Which is it, targeting Roswell researchers or the public? Why >can't it be both? Surely you can't seriously think that you >would be of no interest or use to UFO disinformation operations, >given your background as a journalist and UFO author. Brad Yes of course it can be both the public and UFO researchers. And, no, they don't have to just target Roswell researchers. What I fail to understand is: why specifically target me? When "Body Snatchers" was published in June of this year, this was the first UFO book I had published for nearly _six and a half years_. My last book, strictly on UFOs, was Cosmic Crashes, published in March 1999 and that was never published in the US. So yes I am a "UFO author" but as Stuart Miller noted in his UFO Review interview with me, after Cosmic Crashes in 1999 - as far as UFOs are concerned - I largely disappeared, aside from occasional gigs in the UK and the Birdsall's conference in the UK. Yes, I spoke occasionally at the Laughlin gig; at the Mufon Conf in 04; at the Aztec gig in 03; etc., etc. But I was mainly doing freelance writing for mags and newspapers on subjects totally unconnected to UFOs in that period, and that focused on other interests of mine - exotic pets (reptiles, etc.); cryptozoology; punk rock. So again, I want to stress that it seems odd to me (and I accept it may not seem odd to some people on List, which is why we have the List to debate such issues) that a disinformation team would target someone like me. When I completed the interviews in 2004, I hadn't had a UFO book published for 5 years. That's not necessarily a good thing for a disinformation team that is relying on having an author with an on-going UFO track record to publish the story. And who could guarantee - after half a decade or more - I could even get another UFO book published anyway? Plus: as any of my friends and colleagues in Ufology will be happy to tell you, I was perfectly content doing the other non- UFO writing. If these sources had not come along it could easily have been _another_ six and a half years before I had another UFO book published. So, why not approach someone with an _on-going_ involvement in UFO book publishing and research? Choosing me - who had not had a UFO book published for 6 1/2 years and who had _never_ had a UFO book published in the US - would be crazy for a disinformation team, I think. >>>Your new scenario for Roswell still includes balloon debris from a >top secret military project, and still claims the strange bodies are >from another crash in NM at another date, not at Roswell, so it >really is not too different from the Mogul Balloon and Crash Test >Dummy scenarios. >In fact your "Colonel" states "Mogul is just a convenient >cover," so Mogul is a part of this new scenario, as a cover >story or "diversion" for it (p. 134). Yes, but my point was that the Mogul and crash-test dummy covers _are_still_in_place. And introducing such a controversial cover would only add to the suspicion that Mogul might not be the answer. It doesn't matter if people accept the data of the sources - the mere fact of introducing a new Roswell angle as disinformation means that people will look into Roswell again, And I fail to see why the "keepers of the secret" would want us to do that. >In your book you report that the purpose of the UFO >disinformation was to cause "confusion" among UFO researchers >(pp. 84, 89) by "flooding the UFO community with a mass of >confusing, contradictory and outright bogus stories" (p. 89), by >"muddying the waters" (p. 173). >Thus even if this new Roswell scenario did outright contradict the >earlier Mogul story this would only help add "confusion" and >"muddy the waters," just as the government disinformation plan >presumably intends. Yes, but as far as I can tell, the mainstream media bought into the Mogul scenario. So why shouldn't the Government have let it rest there? The plan had worked. The influential media - whose newspapers sell in the millions, collectively - accepted Mogul. A few thousand UFO researchers didn't accept Mogul. Hardly an important enough reason to create another scenario. >>3. Why try to deflect interest from Roswell by saying they had >>undertaken diabolical experiments on human beings? Again - >>regardless of whether or not people believe the testimony - that >>would only focus more attention on Roswell. >See answer above, it sows "confusion" in the UFO community, >which has been entangled in controversy over Roswell, virtually >paralyzing its UFO research progress in other areas. So by >focusing more attention on Roswell it is adding gasoline to the >fire, making the Roswell-based confusion and chaos worse. An intriguing theory and may be correct in part. As I have stressed before, the data in Body Snatchers does not take away the fact that I am a believer still in a genuine UFO mystery of unknown origin - it's just the crash cases I am now skeptical of. It _is_ true that Roswell has been the main focus for years. But on the other hand, a lot of people are totally sick of the "R" word and for that reason _have_ gone into other areas of research because they see it as a stalemate case almost in terms of its age, lack of still-living people, etc.. to any great extent. >In your July 25 post you admit that you did "get off the record, >brief statements/data revelations from them" during this >supposed "flat refusal" period (which was actually only about 16 >months from July 28, 2001, to Dec. 6, 2003, by looking at the >dates of your interviews in the back of your book as you told us >to do). So it was not a complete blackout of information (or >disinformation). No it wasn't a total lack of contact. But it _was_ a total lack of complete interviews and a _definite refusal_to use the accounts in published format. Plus, look at the testimony of Bill Salter. This takes up all of a massive _one and a half pages_ of a 248 page book (see pages 90-91). Employing someone like Salter into this program of disinformation and then have him only relate enough information to fill not even 2 pages, strikes me as very odd. Also, by Salter's own admission, he knew nothing first hand: everything he learned came from a guy at Oak Ridge who had previously been with the Central Intelligence Group and "an old friend from the Department of Energy." If the attempt was to pump me full of bogus Roswell tales, why not have Salter relate an intricate tale, where he talked about seeing bodies, and knowing conclusively that they were Japanese? Having him just say words to the effect that "My information is all second-hand" and then only relate enough to fill less than 2 pages of the book, does not sound like disinformation. But it _does_ sound like someone recalling from memory scattered fragments of something they had been told years before. Of course, you might say that this was the intention all along: have Salter play down his role. But that is an argument that we could debate endlessly. But, regardless of our personal opinions, Salter doesn't come across like a lot of disinfo people/liars within Ufology who have huge, ever-expanding tales to tell. His was just along the lines of "Well, this is what I was told 50 years ago, and this is where I heard it, but I didn't see anything personally. And that's all." >Uh, did you happen to notice that 9-11 happened shortly after >this near-hiatus with your "sources" after July 28, 2001? >Covert operations no doubt had to be seriously re-evaluated and >put on hiatus or terminated in light of 9-11, which forced a >rethinking of covert ops objectives and strategy. Yes I did notice that. But, again, introducing a new angle for Roswell - even if people don't accept the data - is only going to cause people to look into it more. Not a good thing if you are trying to hide the story of the millennium. >This is what gets me about the UFO community, that it makes no >effort to see its subject matter in the context of broader world >events. It's as if there is a special "UFO world" that exists in >its own vacuum To an extent I agree with this re the "vacuum" comment. But that, to me, only reinforces what I have been saying re.: why spread further Roswell disinformation in the 21st Century? In today's ufological field, much of ufology _is_ often in a vacuum. We collectively speak to a few thousand (at the very most, and usually just in the hundreds) colleagues at gigs per year, at conferences, and at online Lists such as this. As far as the media is concerned, for the most part we are only there for their amusement, or to fill a couple of minutes on a news slot when there's nothing else going on. Plus, book sales are down, magazines are closing, groups are splintering, etc. In the UK, there is no newsstand publication on UFOs, there are no big conferences in the UK anymore, etc., etc. US magazine sales on UFOs are down, group membership is down. We are a minor cog and the influential Media bought into Mogul. The general public might occasionally watch a UFO show now and then; but until or unless the aliens land, the public will never really care, or sit up and take note. The conclusion of all this is that UFO books rarely gather interest outside of the relatively closed UFO community. So, in view of this, and with Mogul firmly in place, I don't see that having disinformation specialists stir the Roswell pot anymore has any great merit to it. Remember: who is reading Body Snatchers? I'll tell you who: UFO researchers, who speak to - and debate with - other UFO researchers, in an ever dwindling community. I guess the question I am asking is, in light of the above, specific 5 paragraphs from me: why are they bothering to pump out disinformation on Roswell? Aside from us, no one really cares. That's the reality of the situation. And if the GAO couldn't even find any Roswell files (hell, even the Air Force couldn't locate documents linking Mogul and the absurd crash-test-dummy scenario to Roswell), and with the media taken care of, then why should the secret-keepers be worried about a few UFO researchers - particularly when practically all of the I-was-there people from the Roswell case are now dead,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 1 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 11:24:47 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 15:14:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Redfern >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:49:06 EDT >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >This bogus MJ-12 "1st" Annual Report refers to >agencies that did not even exist yet in 1947 or 1952 as carrying >out such things as Roswell-related "radiation monitoring >flights" in NM in 1947 supposedly done by "AFTAC" an agency that >was not even created until 1959! List, My god... I have found something that Brad and I agree on! The 1st Annual Report - it's membership reportedly included Hoyt Vandenberg (see its front page). Vandenberg died in 1954. So he _could_ have been on this committee in 1952. But..."Annex A" of the "Report" makes a reference to Fort Detrick. However, Fort Detrick did not take that name until 1956. Prior to that it was Camp Detrick. So how could Vandeberg - who died in 1954 - be on a committee that was sending materials to a place - Fort Detrick - that didn't exist by that name until 1956, two years after his death? Was he cloned? Miraculously resurrected in some event of Biblical proportions? Or maybe the story of his death was just a cover? Nope to all 3.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 1 Secrecy News -- 08/01/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 12:53:06 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 23:41:45 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/01/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 72 August 1, 2005 ** FORMER DDCI LOBBIED FOR CLASSIFIED FUNDS ** SSCI THREAT HEARING OMITS QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD ** HOUSE HEARING ON OVERCLASSIFICATION ** CORRECTING THE CONGRESSIONAL RESEARCH SERVICE ** CORRECTING SECRECY NEWS ** CORRECTING SECRECY NEWS (2) FORMER DDCI LOBBIED FOR CLASSIFIED FUNDS A former Deputy Director of Central Intelligence lobbied Congress and the CIA last year seeking "funding for [a] classified program" on behalf of Lockheed Martin Corporation. John N. McMahon, who served as DDCI from 1982 to 1986, spent and earned an unspecified amount less than $10,000 in lobbying for the otherwise unidentified classified program, according to a report that he filed this year with the Senate Office of Public Records. The intelligence appropriations process, which allocates billions of dollars each year to the aerospace industry, is rife with mostly invisible lobbying activity from which the general public is excluded. While Mr. McMahon and Lockheed Martin have as much right as anyone else to advocate their interests, they do not have more of a right. The fact that they are permitted to pursue their agenda under the shield of national security classification tends to skew the appropriations process towards industry and may help explain the troubled acquisition policies of U.S. intelligence agencies. A copy of Mr. McMahon's 2004 lobbying report, spotted by writer Tim Shorrock, is posted here: http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2005/08/mcmahon.html A summary of Mr. McMahon's CIA career is available here: http://www.odci.gov/csi/books/dddcia/mcmahon.html SSCI THREAT HEARING OMITS QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD The hearing record for the February 2005 Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (SSCI) annual threat briefing has just been published. But for the second year in a row, it does not include the Questions for the Record (QFRs) that were normally included in the past. The QFRs were typically the most valuable part of the hearing record. Senators would do their best to pose penetrating, sometimes provocative questions, and as often as not the intelligence agencies would respond with concise factual replies that added valuable new information to the public record. (See, e.g., Secrecy News, 10/31/03). The Senate Committee did not respond to a request for an explanation as to why this material was omitted. But without the QFRs, the utility of the hearing record -- and of the Senate Intelligence Committee itself -- is diminished. See "Current and Projected National Security Threats to the United States," Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, February 16, 2005: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_hr/shrg109-61.html HOUSE HEARING ON OVERCLASSIFICATION The record of a lively and interesting March 2005 hearing held by a House Government Reform Subcommittee on "Overclassification and Pseudo-Classification" has also just been published. See: http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2005/030205overclass.html CORRECTING THE CONGRESSIONAL RESEARCH SERVICE In a recent report on Japan-U.S. Relations, the Congressional Research Service stated that "Japan contributes almost 20% of the U.N. budget, significantly more than any country except the United States." http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IB97004.pdf But reader S., writing from Japan, disputed that assertion. Japan, he noted, contributed $346 million to the United Nations budget this year, while the U.S. contributed only $73 million, less than five other nations. "Does 'contribute' have another meaning in Congress?" he wrote. According to the Global Policy Forum, Japan has paid its $346 million U.N. budget assessment in full, while the U.S. is in arrears for current and past years in the amount of $608 million. See: http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance/tables/reg- budget/large05.htm CORRECTING SECRECY NEWS Secrecy News (07/28/05) mistakenly said that Sen. Edward Kennedy was wrong to assert that the 15.6 million classification actions performed in the last year represented a "record" high. Sen. Kennedy had it right. The Information Security Oversight Office did report a higher number -- 22,322,895 classification actions -- in its 1985 report to the President. But following the adoption of a revised sampling method in 1986, ISOO went back and recalculated the values previously reported. The 1985 figure was revised downward to 15 million. Therefore the 15.6 million classification actions reported in 2004 and cited by Sen. Kennedy were a "record" high. Thanks to Rick Blum of OpenTheGovernment.org and Pete Weitzel of the Coalition of Journalists for Open Government (www.cjog.net) for noting the error. CORRECTING SECRECY NEWS (2) Writing in the Washington Times, the "other" John Roberts took Secrecy News to task today for linking Supreme Court nominee John G. Roberts Jr. with the Iran-Contra scandal (SN, 07/20/05). "Someone should have called to ask whether Judge Roberts and I were, or weren't, the same person," suggested John B. Roberts II, the individual who was named in passing in the Independent Counsel report on Iran-Contra. "Instead, Secrecy News rushed to publish." Secrecy News did confirm that "John Roberts" was employed at the White House at the time, but admittedly failed to consider the possibility that there were two or more individuals with the same name. The error was corrected within an hour, however, not "a day after." See "The Scandal That Wasn't" by John B. Roberts II, Washington Times, August 1: http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20050731-093600-1301r.htm _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 1 Canadian Connection To Roswell UFO Crash? From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:08:56 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 23:44:05 -0400 Subject: Canadian Connection To Roswell UFO Crash? Hi Everyone! While checking out the Horten Nurflugel page below that Greg Boone brought to my attention, I noticed a few pictures of a full size Ae. 37 Delta Jet that reminded me very much of the Canadian Avro Arrow interceptor. http://tinyurl.com/84ayt I have not visited the Paul Garber facility of the National Air and Space Museum (only the National Mall Building and the Udvar- Hazy Center) where they have the other of two saucer shaped Avro cars built here in Toronto (Malton). Two pictures that I found interesting can be seen in the pages below (I added the captions that go with them). Al, Geoff, and Russ examining the Ho 229. Still a beautiful airplane after all these years. http://www.nurflugel.com/Nurflugel/Img0041.jpg A Japanese clone of the Me 262. I believe this is the only one in existence. http://www.nurflugel.com/Nurflugel/NASM/Img0046.jpg If this Japanese clone of a Me 262 was made during WWII, although it is of a Messerschmitt and not a Horten, it may be further evidence of a possible Japanese-German connection. There was just too much going on in the closing days of WWII and shortly afterwards in Canada (we have one of two Me 262s buried intact at an old aircraft manufacturing plant, now a park, just a few miles from where I work), Britian, the U.S. and Russia in the late 1940s that it is easy to make a direct connection to the Roswell UFO crash or just about anything else for that matter. This does not mean there was one and neither does it rule out that an ET craft crashed in New Mexico in 1947. I have stronger reasons to suspect that the rapid advance in aircraft technology of the axis countries is partial due to recovered crashed ET craft in both Italy and Germany before WWII but that is another story. Also, we all know that Wernher von Braun was the rocket expert that helped get U.S. astronauts to walk on the Moon but fewer of us know that Walter Miethe (same as Dr. Richard Miethe?) was an expert on flying discs which could very well have been responsible for all unexplained post WWII UFO sightings. According to Kevin McClure (and Michael Schratt about Dr. Richard Miethe), In 'Projekt UFO', Harbinson asserts that, of the 'rocket scientists' involved in flying disc development "at the close of the war, Walter Miethe went to the US with Wernher von Braun, Dornberger, and hundreds of other members of the Peenemunde rocket programme... Miethe, though initially working under Wernher von Braun for the United States' first rocket centre in the White Sands Proving Ground, New Mexico, joined the A.V. Roe (AVRO-Canada) aircraft company in Malton, Ontario, reportedly to continue work on disc-shaped aircraft, or flying saucers just as Habermohl was thought to be doing with the Russians." There a history about man-made flying saucers that is still largely unknown and shrouded in mystery that may not only explain the Roswell UFO crash but all UFO sightings - and there
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 1 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Jamieson From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:29:52 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 23:46:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Jamieson >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:19:54 -0400 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >Dr. Mark Rodighier and others at CUFOS have been conducting an >abduction study. The results of their study have been anticipated >for what feels like ages now. Although, if the abductions have >stopped, as some abductees are reporting, it might become harder Hi John. Thanks for answering with such detail. I wasn't aware, in particular, that CUFOS would deepen its focus related to abduction study. I sure was surprised to see you report about the abductions having stopped! I wonder what that means? (Has a key phase of their operations/ agenda been fulfilled?) >Unless/until the 'bugs' choose to fill the skies with their >star-cars, and make all this UFO/abduction business as immediate >and urgent an issue for the masses as it is for us - the >abductees - the current state of affairs will prevail ad >infinitum. We all sit at the board staring at a stalemate... >like it's going to go away all by itself somehow. >Makes me wanna toss my cookies just to think about it. I've noticed some people are excitedly hoping and anticipating the type of high profile appearance you describe... but, I think, with a different mindset than yours. Scientists and journalists
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 1 Re: Exopolitics And Its Unique Folklore - Jamieson From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:59:13 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 23:48:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Exopolitics And Its Unique Folklore - Jamieson >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 17:22:23 -0400 >Subject: Re: Exopolitics And Its Unique Folklore >>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:35:11 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Exopolitics And Its Unique Folklore ><snip> >>I am predicting that the Exopolitcs Institute will be >>quite successful. Because it offers a clear picture, certainty, >>and the hope of salvation (via the agency of Space Brothers). >Hmph. The exopolitics I'm interested in are the machinations >of Earthling authorities who are witholding information, nothing >at all involving anything remotely like a religious faith. Hi Eleanor, The detailed picture presented by Michael Salla, re: UFOs altogether (and any governmental knowledge and response to same), seems like a unique folklore to me. Like a hybridization of positions out there in the UFO field. You could almost say it's a "centrist" position (staged between those who see only bad aliens and those seeing only good aliens). Dr. Salla grants credibility to that "old time" contactee "religion" (born in the 1950s with the introduction of the Space Brothers). And, he also proposes the existence of aliens who are of a more negative "flavor". (Working in alliance with covert arms of the government.) What personally concerns me is a developing delusion in my old buddy Ed Komarek. As you may have noticed in one of his recent blog entries, he describes being in telepathic contact with the good guy aliens. And while that may seem nutty to most of us (as he acknowledges), that's only because we are attentive only to 3rd dimensional reality and therefore unable to understand multi- dimensional dudes like him. My hope is that the Exopolitcs Institute crew wipes its slate clean (of all its presumed "knowledge") and starts afresh in its research.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Randle From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 18:39:05 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:01:45 -0400 Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone - Randle >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:32:57 -1000 >Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:50:38 EDT >>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:58:01 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone >>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:28:32 EDT >>>>Subject: Re: An Interview With Clifford Stone: The EBE Guidebook <snip> >>>Forgive me but where is the analogy here with Stone's case? Your >>>training as a Military Police Officer is not classified is it? >>>Nor is the existence of contingents of military police that are >>>deployed on various assignements classified either is it? So >>>there would be no need to have your records concering your >>>training and deployments altered on the basis of national >>>security. In contrast, both the training and the existence of >>>groups involved in the retrieval of crashed disks is claimed to >>>be highly classified. Something that is very reasonable given >>>the existence of waived Special Access Programs whose existence >>>is a secret. >>The point here was that if there were holes in the records, I >>have other ways of proving it. Stone should have copies of >>orders that would note his needing to be absent on another >>assignment without necessarily spelling out what that assignment >>was. School, even those of a classified nature have generic >>names and certificates are issued. While it wouldn't of >>necessity say it was Project Moon Dust training, it would have >>some sort of training but Stone has offered nothing like that, >>insisting, instead, that his records were altered. >You make a good point. I have mentioned in my response to Brad >Sparks how Stone was recalled from his normal military duties to >perform specialized retrieval operations or training. >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/jul/m31- >001.shtml . >Stone has pointed out in subsequent interviews that there was no >paper trail and he often had problems explaining his absence to >his regular army commmander. This suggests that what you pointed >above didn't apply to the duties performed by Stone. He would >simply receive a phone call or some other message and go off on >the retrieval assignment without documentation. This means that >he could easily be disciplined for being AWOL unless those in >the hierarchy who knew about his alleged retrieval duties >covered for him. The covert system Stone describes appears to be >an excellent way to maintain secrecy and minimize the risks >posed by military servicemen who become whistleblowers. So, if I go to the trouble to FOIA the morning reports from the units to which Stone belonged at those times, documents that were created on a daily basis to show who was present for duty and who was not, I will find, on those documents, absences which will not be accounted for in other records. In other words, Stone will be listed as AWOL but then, a week or so later, reappear and because these absences were for his highly secret Moon Dust work there will be no indications that he was disciplined for being AWOL. Remember that the morning reports were prepared daily and forwarded up the chain of command daily so that once an entry had been made, there was no way for the local commander to recover it and then alter it. He could, of course, forward an amended morning report, but then copies of both would be in the record. So, if I follow this lead, I will find Stone's missing time? >>>As the 1991 letter to Senator Bingaman denying the >>>existence of Project Moon dust suggests, Moon Dust is highly >>>classified and the documentary trail is pretty thin. Stone's >>>claims concerning the alteration of his military records is >>>plausible given the classified nature of the training and >>>deployments of crash retrieval teams he claims to have been >>>recruited for. >>But there are no gaps in his records. Everything is accounted >>for. I say that his absences, even of a classified nature would >>be noted. There are people claiming to have been awarded >>"secret" medals because they were on classified assignments. >>This is why there is no record. But the truth is that even those >>on classified missions and received awards for valor have them >>noted? Yes, the notations are generic and the actions cited >>less than detailed, but the point is that there is some kind of >>record. Stone produces nothing of the kind, insisting the record >>is altered. He should be able to produce orders, certificates, >>some sort of document that relates, in a very generic sense to >>his "classified" training. And not copies of documents, but >>originals. >As I said earlier, there is no paper trail since Stone would >simply recieve a message to begin a new assignment that >typically took a week according to his testimony. He would not inform his company commander, the first sergeant or his platoon sergeant? He'd just disappear for a week or so and then reappear? And there are no records of any kind to document this unique situation? <snip> >>I said then that Stone had provided me with the documentation, >>which was true. I obtained documents on my own as well, >>including a long microfilmed history of the 4602d. Stone, was >>right there, filing his own requests=C3=A2?=C2=A6 but it was you who >>suggested that given Stone's background and his success, this >>proved he was an insider. Brad and I suggest that he didn't have >>to be an insider to get to that point, and that information to >>help him was already in the public arena. >What I suggested was that Stone's pioneering FOIA work >demonstrated an inside knowledge that bolstered his claims of >having worked on the secret retrieval of crashed UFOs. Since we >are currently debating whether Stone's FOIA work was pioneering >or simply "ripping off" other FOIA researchers like Todd, then >the ultimate answer to this will either support or detract from >Stone's credibility as a whistleblower. But you have already suggested that others, working independently of Stone were able to find the same paths. Stone didn't confer with Todd or others, but blazed his own trail. And if that is true, then his findings for Moon Dust do nothing to suggest he was on the inside. >>I'll let Brad hand you the timelime, showing that others had >>done some of the original spade work. But the point, the major >>point, is that knowing about Moon Dust does not prove that Stone >>was on the inside. >I responded to Brad Spark's timeline and found he had >misunderstood Stone's alleged service on the retrieval teams, as >well as not knowing the role played by Stone in releasing >Project Moon Dust information through Tom Adams and Gerry Barker >in 1977: >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/jul/m31-001.shtml >Based on what I have learned so far, I contend that Stone was >the 'deep throat' ultimately responsible for Project Moon Dust >being learned by researchers such as Robert Todd. Todd's FOIA >work was not succesful in proving Project Moon Dust's existence >and ultimately it was Stone who achieved this through his >persistant FOIA requests despite opposition from his regular >army superiors. Opposition from his superiors? Are you suggesting here that Stone was disobeying his orders? ><snip> >>No, No, No. I am suggesting that you can't say Stone must have >>been on the inside because he knew of the documents and secured >>copies through FOIA. I am saying, once again, that he was >>tenacious as a researcher into these matters, but that does not >>prove he had been a member of a classified Moon Dust team. >>Stone's research and knowledge of these matters is great, but >>what changed was that he injected himself into the middle of >>this claiming to be something that he is not. >I'm glad you acknowledge Stone's extensive knowledge of Project >Moondust matters. You have a point that even in the best case >that Stone's FOIA work on Project Moon Dust was pioneering, that >doesn't prove he was an insider. He may have been as you say >just a tenacious researcher who somehow got wind of Project Moon >Dust through others, and began doing FOIA work on the leads he >received. All that Stone's 'pioneering' or 'tenacious' research >shows is that he gained much information over the years >concering UFO issues as a result of courageous FOIA work that >landed him in trouble with his army commanders. Nevertheless, >while his successful FOIA work may not 'prove' Stone was an >insider, it is evidence bolstering his claims of being an >insider. >Along with Stone's pioneering work, there is also the matter of >precisely what he told researchers such as Tom Adams and Gerry >Barker in 1977 concerning Moon Dust. If they can confirm what >occured, that may give us an idea if Stone was ultimately the >"Deep Throat" that revealed Moon Dust. However, since 'Deep >throat' was revealing the classified code name of a classified >project, then that may be difficult to prove since deep throat >could be punished for such a disclosure if it were proved. So now he wasn't working with Todd and others, but working with Tom Adams and Gerry Barker, feeding them the information before Todd and others had climbed on board. <snip> >I addressed this issue in my reply to Brad Sparks concering the >timeline, and also showed that Todd did not prove Project Moon >Dust existed. Todd had gained a version of the 1961 Betz memo >that mentioned Project Moon Dust, but this had, as you observed >in your book, handwriting scrawled across it this was a proposal >never implemented. So Todd's version didn't prove anything other >than Project Moon Dust was a proposal. In contrast, Stone's >version of the 1961 Betz memo didn't have the handwriting on it >saying Project Moon Dust was a proposal. This led to controversy >as some like Barry Greenwood contended that Stone had >deliberately erased the handwriting as you point out in Project >Moon Dust. It was Stone who secured the key 1973 State >Department document that led to Project Moon Dust finally being >declassified as explained in a letter he received from the USAF >in 1994 which is reproduced in his book, UFOs Are Real. <snip> >>So, it seems to me that if Stone has no trouble telling of >>secrets that he has been swore to keep, that he is willing to >>spill his guts about the 57 varieties of EBEs out there, he will >>surely tell us this classified name? For, if he was on the >>inside, he should know it. >Now this would have to be the silliest thing you've said so far. >If Stone is an insider and knows the code to the successor of >Project Moon Dust, then he would be jailed for revealing the >classified name of a classified project. In short, the successor >to Project Moon Dust is almost certainly an unacknowledged >Special Access Program where both the program and its name is >classified. Revealing the name of such an unacknowledged SAP is >a federal offense which you must be aware of as a former >Military Intelligence Officer and recent MP training. So what's >you point in challenging Stone to reveal this classified >information to prove his insider status? You are asking him to >break the law and risk incarceration to prove something that he >has already occurred in the past with the disclosure of Project >Moon Dust. Let me get this straight... Stone could spill the beans about Moon Dust, he could talk about the classified EBE report with its 57 varieties of aliens, he could reveal inside information that could be damaging to the security of the United States with his feeding of classified information to Todd... I mean Adams and Barker, he can violate his lawful orders but he can't tell us what the new name for Moon Dust is because he'll be arrested? So, I might infer from this, since Stone is afraid of arrest, that all the information he passed to various colleagues in the UFO field was unclassified. Might I also infer that the EBE guide that you have interviewed him about is not classified, and therefore would be available to anyone who filed the proper FOIA request? Might I further infer, that since the document is unclassified, that Stone has a copy of it himself and has shown it to various researchers including you? The point in challenging Stone to give us the new name is because he has not seemed to worry about the consequences of his actions to this point. He'll tell us everything he can, point people in the right direction, but when we ask for a specific piece of information that he should, by his own admission, have, we're told that he would be arrested? I think that ship has sailed. ><snip> >>>Now you overlook two possibilities here. One that Stone may have >>>assisted or influenced Todd and Peter Gersten in doing FOIA >>>requests concerning Project Moon Dust. A second is that Stone >>>and Todd had independently followed their own lines of research >>>and come up with similar results. This commonly happens in >>>scientific research, ask Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz who >>>discovered integral calculus at the same time independently of >>>one another. >>So, where once you said that you believed Stone because he had >>found various documents through FOIA that only his insider >>status could find, you now suggest that Todd, working >>independently of Stone, without an insider's knowledge could >>have found these same documents. Doesn't that then suggest >>that Stone didn't have to be an insider either and therefore, >>his discovery of these documents, if independent of Todd, only >>proves his tenacious attitude but does nothing to corroborate >>his now wild tales? >Yes, that's a good point and well reasoned. My conclusion is >that there needed to be 'deep throat' in the revelation of >Project Moon Dust. Someone in the military who was aware of >Project Moon Dust and leaked it to UFO researchers. Based on my >conversation to Clifford Stone on July 30 where he told me that >he had passed on information about Project Moon Dust in 1977 to >Tom Adams and Gerry Barker, then it is very possible that Stone >was the 'deep throat'. If correct, then that would definitely >bolster Stone's claims concerning him being secretly assigned to >UFO crash retrievals throughout his military career. If Stone was correct, but we have no evidence of this. Instead we have his spinning the story. He has now invoked the names of others and a date that precedes Todd's discoveries. Interesting..... ><snip> >>So, once again, if he was on the inside, he can tell us the new >>code name for Moon Dust. I await the answer. At that point, I >>will reevaluate my thinking on Stone and be forced to admit that >>he might have some inside knowledge. >You already know what I think about your challenge to Stone to >provide the new code name for Moon Dust. In conclusion, Stone's >'pioneering' and/or 'tenacious' does not prove he worked on UFO >retrieval teams such as Moon Dust as you say. At best, it is >evidence that supports his claims of being an insider. >Nevertheless, his pioneering FOIA work certainly lends him a >certain degree of credibility and I'm glad you acknowledge this >without going to the next step of saying that this proves he was >an insider. If more research is done on who was the 'deep >throat' that revealed the existence of Moon Dust to researchers >back in the 1977-79 period, then that might give further clues >about Stone's alleged insider status. I don't believe his pioneering work lends a note of credibility to his claims of being on the inside. And I don't believe there was a 'Deep Throat' who revealed Moon Dust, but a slip up that allowed UFO researchers to find the name and then begin to pursue it through FOIA. What I don't really understand is how a man who is as smart as you doesn't see these red flags and begin asking some tough questions. Each time we suggest that a "whistleblower" (though I think here that Brad Sparks is right, they're really leakers) has feet of clay, you have a spin to put on it. Stone, if he is who he claimed to be, that is an insider on Moon Dust, he would already be under arrest for leaking classified information!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Astute Comment About Skeptics From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:20:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:03:45 -0400 Subject: Astute Comment About Skeptics Below is a comment by Dr. Allen L. Barker, a member of the vigilante stalking/electronic harassment target community, where we are subject to our own "skeptibunker" treatment all the time: >Some "skeptics" manage to be awfully compliant and gullible with
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 20:51:41 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:07:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Friedman >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 11:24:47 -0700 >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:49:06 EDT >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>This bogus MJ-12 "1st" Annual Report refers to >>agencies that did not even exist yet in 1947 or 1952 as carrying >>out such things as Roswell-related "radiation monitoring >>flights" in NM in 1947 supposedly done by "AFTAC" an agency that >>was not even created until 1959! >My god... I have found something that Brad and I agree on! >The 1st Annual Report - it's membership reportedly included >Hoyt Vandenberg (see its front page). Vandenberg died in 1954. >So he _could_ have been on this committee in 1952. >But..."Annex A" of the "Report" makes a reference to Fort >Detrick. However, Fort Detrick did not take that name until >1956. Prior to that it was Camp Detrick. >So how could Vandeberg - who died in 1954 - be on a committee >that was sending materials to a place - Fort Detrick - that >didn't exist by that name until 1956, two years after his death? >Was he cloned? Miraculously resurrected in some event of >Biblical proportions? Or maybe the story of his death was just a >cover? Nope to all 3. >He died in 54. Fort Detrick didn't exist by that name until >1956. The document is not what it appears to be. The end. I am completely convinced that the supposed first Annual Report is a fraudulent document. As are just about all the other Tim Cooper documents, as I noted in my MUFON 2000 paper. Brad and Nick have given several reasons. Let me add one more. Paragraph 2 in The Conclusions section is just about verbatim from a supposed Memo for the President from General Twining dated 26 September 1947. However, this in turn is clearly an emulation of a real letter from General Albert C. Wedemeyer (Published in his book "Wedemeyer Reports" dated 19 September 1947. Twining supposedly said that he (like Wedemeyer) had been gone for 2 months, had people from State, Treasury, War and Navy Departments and produced 1200 memoranda.Twining's flight log proves he was gone only for a week, and (according to the Lamogordo newspaper)did not have guys from these agencies, and could hardly have produced 1200 memoranda etc... Michael Salla, please note the above. Also here is a quote from an item I just found in an efficiency Report about Corso from H.S. Craig, Chief Special Projects Staff, June 25, 1955 "Col. Philip J. Corso has been performing liaison duties with various member agencies of the Operations Coordinating Board and continues to prepare certain intelligence estimates which are part of the staff function of this organization."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Kimball From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 21:01:32 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:12:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Kimball >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:00:20 -1000 >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:49:06 EDT >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:21:13 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC <snip> >Your history is "wrong" and you are misleading readers of this >list with the current 2005 version of the National Security Act >rather than the 1947 version that was relevant to the time period >in the 50's under discussion. The CIA "functionally" reported to >the NSC and functionally "coordinated" matters just like the >OCB did, yet CIA employees and managers did not get to lie on >their resume's like Corso and claim they worked on the prestigious >high-level "NSC Staff." <snip> >I find your style reminiscent of a high debate where there's >a premium on scoring points to impress an audience rather >than a sincere analysis of the topic at hand which is Col Phillip >Corso's contention of having served as a staff member to the >NSC. This is typical - Dr. Salla can't counter Brad, or Kevin Randle, on the facts, so he resorts to snide personal digs, a la "I find your style reminiscent of a high school debate." Worse, he labels Brad as "insincere," which is about as far off the mark as he can get. Let this stand as a shining example of Dr. Salla's "friendly, gentlemanly" approach to debate, which I've seen some people mention. >Since you demonstrate no intent to abandon your argument >that Corso lied about being a staff member to the NSC, let >me summarize the independent evidence that conclusively >demonstrates that Corso was certainly not lying when associating >the OCB with the NSC and describing himself as a staff member >of the NSC. Since Dr. Salla has demonstrated no intent to accept the facts as they exist, whether it is with Corso or Stone (or Lazar, Cooper, or any of his other "whistleblowers"), as opposed to how he would like them, for whatever reason, to exist, let me simply point out that everything he cites as "evidence" that Dr. Salla claims "conclusively" demonstrates that Corso was not lying is, as Kevin might say, "eyewash", and has been thoroughly rebutted by Brad, Stan Friedman, and many others. <snip> >Your argument is weak and an example of historical >revisionism that is deeply biased. See what happens if you don't agree with Dr. Salla - you get labelled a revisionist, and biased. You're part of the "problem," not part of the "solution." The problem is Dr. Salla and his whole exopolitics crowd, with their a-historical approach to the search for the truth, their complete disregard for the relevant evidence, and their inability to hear anyone's voice except their own. They are the epitome of Stan's "don't bother me with the facts, my mind is made up" rule of debunking. Folks, a debunker is a debunker, no matter which side of the fence they're sitting on. They twist the facts, they attack people who don't agree with them, and they try to suck in the gullible and those pre-disposed to believe (if you're an exopolitics type) or disbelieve (if you're what Jerry Clark and others call a "pelicanist"). There is no difference between Dr. Salla and someone like Phil Klass. They are two sides of the same intellectually bankrupt coin. They and their "methods" are both affronts to the search for the truth. Kudos to Brad and Kevin for doing the heavy lifting lately, and for presenting the facts with regard to Corso and Stone for the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Interview Pertaining To Ivan T. Sanderson From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:07:36 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:16:43 -0400 Subject: Interview Pertaining To Ivan T. Sanderson [I am forwarding this private exchange to several lists. I hope Loren, Jerry and others can find the time for the Travel Channel interview. I am certainly NOT an expert. My last field interview in Tombstone, Arizona was early last year. A crew for HGTV (Home & Garden TV) were filming the courtyard area of the world's largest Rose Tree. Besides citing the Old West cliches I mentioned the small town feel throughout Cochise County's 6400 square miles. I also wisecracked about HGTV's edited programs which infer that home improvement projects are easy. --Terry] ----- Hi Terry, Thank you so much for responding so quickly! Yes, you may post this exchange. But, I don't think I was clear about what I was asking you. Would you mind if the Travel Channel contacted you for a verbal interview for the show segment they are doing on Ringing Rocks Park in Bucks County, PA. The producers are looking for experts in the field of paranormal and mysterious occurrences. They had requested to speak with Ivan, so I contacted you to see if you could be interviewed. Also, do you have the contact information for Jerome Clark? Thanks again for your help, I really appreciate it! Lauren -----Original Message----- Hello Lauren, My contact with Ivan was only through a few letters exchanged before his death in 1973. Yes, the Ringing Rocks are fairly well known to most forteans. Jerome Clark in his book, Unexplained, devotes two pages and cites six sources to the phenomenon. An excerpt: More interesting is a claim made by the late Ivan T. Sanderson, though since then there has been no published replication: "[T]here are some larger rocks which, when hit appropriately, give rise to a whole scale; ...two different ringers when knocked together while suspended on wires produce (invariably, it seems) but one tone, however many different combinations are used." "Ringing rocks have been noted all over the world. Curiously, the kinds of rock possessing such talents vary. The absence of clear patterns in the creation of such odd geological phenomena continues to frustrate theorists." SOURCES: Corliss, William R., ed. _Strange Planet: A Sourcebook of Unusual Geological Facts, Volume E-1_. Glen Arm, MD: The Sourcebook Project, 1975. Corliss, William R., _Unknown Earth: A Handbook of Geological Enigmas_. Glen Arm, MD: The Sourcebook Project, 1975. Sanderson, Ivan T. "Things." New York: Pyramid Books, 1967. "Why the Rocks Ring." Pursuit 4 (April 1971): 38-41. I hope this helps. May I have your permission to forward to several mailing lists devoted to fortean and paranormal topics? You're welcome. Terry ***** Lauren Tosti wrote: >Hi Terry: >I'm not sure of your relationship with Mr. Sanderson. However, he >investigated a phenomenon in Bucks County in the 1960's, called Ringing >Rocks. The Travel Channel is visiting Ringing Rocks August 11-13, and they >asked me if I could get Ivan T. Sanderson for an interview. Well, obviously >that is impossible. I was wondering if you knew of any of his work with >Ringing Rocks if you could speak about his research and findings there? >I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you. >Lauren Tosti >Public Relations Coordinator >Bucks County Conference & Visitors Bureau
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Kaku On ET Space Travel & Time Travel From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 23:30:27 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:18:56 -0400 Subject: Kaku On ET Space Travel & Time Travel From my blog at www.redstarfilms.blogspot.com Dr. Michio Kaku, Henry Semat Professor of Theoretical Physics at the City University of New York, author of books such as Parallel Worlds and Beyond Einstein, and co-founder of String Field theory, has a number of very intriguing - and accessible - articles at his website. Three of particular interest to UFO aficionados are: 1. "The Physics of Extra-Terrestrial Civilizations" http://www.mkaku.org/articles/physics_of_alien_civs.shtml An excerpt: "The late Carl Sagan once asked this question, 'What does it mean for a civilization to be a few million years old? We have had radio telescopes and spaceships for a few decades; our technical civilization is a few hundred years old... an advanced civilization millions of years old is as much beyond us as we are beyond a bush baby or a macaque.' Although any conjecture about such advanced civilizations is a matter of sheer speculation, one can still use the laws of physics to place upper and lower limits on these civilizations. In particular, now that the laws of quantum field theory, general relativity, thermodynamics, etc. are fairly well established, physics can impose broad physical bounds which constrain the parameters of these civilizations. This question is no longer a matter of idle speculation. Soon, humanity may face an existential shock as the current list of a dozen Jupiter-sized extra-solar planets swells to hundreds of earth-sized planets, almost identical twins of our celestial homeland. This may usher in a new era in our relationship with the universe; we will never see the night sky in the same way again, realizing that scientists may eventually compile an encyclopedia identifying the precise co-ordinates of perhaps hundreds of earth-like planets." Dr. Kaku then provides a ranking system for potential extra- terrestrial civilizations based upon their energy consumption. He also outlines some thoughts about how an advanced civilization might go about exploring the galaxy that puts Captain Kirk and crew in the dry-dock in favour of robot probes designed to reach distant star systems and create factories which will reproduce copies of themselves by the thousands (much to Dr. McCoy's chagrin). On the other hand, he doesn't rule out human (or alien) travel by way of wormholes, either. Fascinating stuff. 2. "The Physics of Interstellar Travel" http://www.mkaku.org/articles/physics_of_space_travel.shtml This article expands upon some of the points discussed in "The Physics of Extra-Terrestrial Civilizations" with regard to space travel. While Dr. Kaku gets his statistics wrong with respect to UFOs (he claims that only 1% are truly unidentified), he is correct in pointing out that: (a) "there is no funding for anyone seriously looking at unidentified flying objects in space, and one's reputation may suffer if one pursues an interest in these unorthodox matters," and (b) "what is disturbing to a physicist... is the remaining 1% [PK note - the actual number is significantly higher] of these sightings, which are multiple sightings made by multiple methods of observations. Some of the most intriguing sightings have been made by seasoned pilots and passengers aboard air line flights which have also been tracked by radar and have been videotaped. Sightings like this are harder to dismiss." Ufologists should look at both these points and ask themselves: (a) Why is there no funding, and why do scientists fear that their reputation will suffer? Here's a hint: because the serious study of the UFO phenomenon has been unable to disentangle itself from the looney fringe, best exemplified as of late by Dr. Michael Salla and his exopolitical cohorts, and because some thoughtful, intelligent people within ufology, like Stan Friedman, insist on presenting the ETH as a fact, when the evidence does not yet support this conclusion. (b) How can serious ufology engage scientists like Dr. Kaku, who have demonstrated at least an interest in the phenomenon, even if their perceptions of the evidence are incorrect? Here's a hint: stick to the facts, and present those facts to men and women like Dr. Kaku who may be willing to give them a look. For example, ask them what they make of the RB47 case. One has to start somewhere. 3. "The Physics of Time Travel" http://www.mkaku.org/articles/phys_time_travel.shtml An excerpt: "Interestingly enough, Stephen Hawking once opposed the idea of time travel. He even claimed he had 'empirical' evidence against it. If time travel existed, he said, then we would have been visited by tourists from the future. Since we see no tourists from the future, ergo: time travel is not possible. Because of the enormous amount of work done by theoretical physicists within the last 5 years or so, Hawking has changed his mind, and now believes that time travel is possible (although not necessarily practical). Furthermore, perhaps we are simply not very interesting to these tourists from the future. Anyone who can harness the power of a star would consider us to be very primitive. Imagine your friends coming across an ant hill. Would they bend down and give them trinkets, books, medicine, and power? or would some of your friends have the strange urge to step on a few of them? In conclusion, don't turn someone away who knocks at your door one day and claims to be your future great-great-great grandchild. They may be right." Here's a question - if you could travel back in time, who would you most want to meet? I would like to think that I would pick Jesus, or some other figure of world-historical significance, but I'd have to admit that I'd be sorely tempted to go visit my younger self (oh, at about age 16), to whom I would (a) impart some basic wisdom about dating, and (b) tell him not to make fun of my Dad's receding hairline, on the theory that what goes around, comes around. Anyway, I urge everyone to read all three of Kaku's articles, as they are relegated to each other. Then check out his other articles, which are just as thought-provoking, and his books, which are great reads. I just wish someone like Dr. Kaku had been teaching physics at my old high school. Perhaps then I would have found it more interesting.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Ozarks Man To Tour With His 'Space Doo-Doo' From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:38:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:38:42 -0400 Subject: Ozarks Man To Tour With His 'Space Doo-Doo' Source: The News-Leader - Springfield, Missouri http://tinyurl.com/a25rm July 31, 2005 Ozarks Man To Tour With His 'Space Doo-Doo' Bob White still is "out there" regarding visitors from other planets. And I mean that in a good way. Since I wrote about the Branson West resident seven years ago, White, 74, has attracted attention around this planet with an odd chunk of metal he says came from a brilliantly glowing, astonishingly fast "unidentified flying object". White displayed the carrot-shaped curiosity he jokingly calls "space doo-doo" in a storefront museum in Reeds Spring from 2000 to 2004. Nowadays he takes it on tour in a 42-foot-long former city bus. White has submitted the strange souvenir for analysis at eight laboratories, and he's passed two lie-detector tests. He has been interviewed on several radio programs, and last year was featured on the British TV show "Jane Goldman Investigates." Most recently, White caught the attention of American cable TV's History Channel, which will focus on White and his mysterious metallic glob in a segment of its "UFO Files" series scheduled to show at 7 p.m. Monday. When the History Channel crew arrived at his Stone County home two months ago, "my neighbors saw the three vans and the cameras, and they thought I'd won a million dollars from that (Publishers) Clearing House thing," White recalls with a chuckle. White's UFO encounter occurred one night in the early 1980s, when he still was on the road as a musician. He and a friend were driving near Grand Junction, Colo., when they saw a glowing orb alongside a remote highway. White says that when he tried to approach the bizarre light, it zoomed skyward and melded with a larger UFO, then disappeared - but not before something fell off and plummeted in a fireball. White says he retrieved the blob of metal but kept it to himself for a dozen years because he "didn't want to be ridiculed as some 'flying saucer nut' ". Eventually, however, he decided to go public with what he feels is a piece of "hard evidence" that proves UFOs aren't all mere optical illusions or the product of hucksters. In his first-ever interview in 1998, White told me he hoped that if enough people became aware of his find, scientific experts and government agencies would be forced to seriously investigate UFOs - or reveal secrets already known about alien spacecraft. That hasn't happened. But White isn't discouraged. This week's History Channel show is a sign of public interest, he believes. And he recently learned that his may not be the only known example of "hard evidence". "They found an object that looks just like mine in Denmark back in the 1940s," White says. "We got a government report that had been 'classified' for years. On the cover are the words 'Recovered from flying saucer in Denmark.' Inside are photos of the thing - and it looks exactly like mine." That would be remarkable because the metal object that White usually keeps locked in a local bank vault is extraordinary in its appearance. The conical curiosity started out about 10 inches long, but has lost a half-inch due to whittling for lab samples. It is almost three inches in diameter at the large end, and tapers to about a half-inch on the small end. It weighs 1.5 pounds. The most unusual aspect of the object to the casual observer is its surface texture. It appears almost organic, like petrified tree bark or neatly layered bird feathers. Scientific observers find unusual properties as well, according to White. Lab analyses have revealed the object to be of uncommon composition. White says he is particularly intrigued by test results showing his object has "strontium isotope abundance ratios" that match properties of meteorites recovered in India and Antarctica. White details all this and more in a new 125-page book titled "UFO Hard Evidence," available from the publisher (www.galdepress.com) or White's Web site (www.ufohardevidence.com). Accompanied by neighbor Larry Cekander, White plans to head westward soon for a nine-month tour in the mobile museum to show off his "space doo-doo". He figures the History Channel exposure will bring invitations to park the bus in prominent spots likely to attract crowds. "I'm not trying to get rich off this thing," White insists. He wants admission to the mobile museum to be free, and is counting on sales of the book and T-shirts to keep the bus rolling. "Honest and truly," White emphasizes, "all I'm trying to do is encourage people who believe they've actually seen UFOs to come forward. A lot of them are reluctant because the government and the military and some so-called experts have declared them to be nuts. "Well, I saw a UFO, and I know I'm not a nut because a piece of it came off and I have it. I don't know for sure exactly what it is, but I do know it's real. You can see it; you can touch it. "So if enough people demand that some legitimate authority determine the origin of this object, and if it's proven to be extraterrestrial, then I predict people will be coming out of the woodwork telling about UFOs they've seen but been afraid to talk about. "Nobody wants to be alone in claiming they've seen a UFO. I've been there, done that, and it's no fun," White says. "But maybe now we have the key to prove, once and for all, that UFOs or flying saucers or whatever you want to call them really
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 UFO Hunters From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:15:58 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:43:34 -0400 Subject: UFO Hunters The History Channel show, UFO Hunters, may be the best documentary yet. Greenewald and all the others who put it together are to be congratulated. This is the first of 4 installments, according to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Epitome Of High Strangeness From: Albert Rosales <Garuda79.nul> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 19:15:30 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 06:54:39 -0400 Subject: Epitome Of High Strangeness Epitome of High Strangeness With hundreds if not thousands of UFO reports and incidents collected from all corners of the earth there are those reports that "stand out" either as a result of its bizarre nature or the UFO actions, or even the appearance of the alleged occupant. These types of reports are rare in nature but have been reported from different countries worldwide and each reliable UFO group or organization has its list of so-called "X-files", cases so bizarre in nature that many of them never come to light and remain hidden in the researcher's private files. My purpose in this article is to summarize a few of these strange and sometimes absurd cases which are not to well known within the "normal" ranks of UFO buffs and researchers. I do not intend to mention those already well known cases and rehash them here, even though they are also high-strangeness in nature and I also do not intend to offer an explanation or judge the nature of the event, I will leave this up to the reader's imagination. Most if not all of the cases I will be detailing are close encounters of the third or fourth kind. In my opinion among those cases that deserve the label of high- strangeness are those in which the witness or witnesses report the presence of two or more types of Ufonauts or humanoids apparently cooperating amongst each other for an unknown purpose. The following case is from France and no is not from 1954 and is not to well known or not mentioned frequently but it was listed in the last edition ever produced of the HUMCAT (Humanoid catalog): Location. Between Mairiuex and Maubeuge Nord France Date: November 26 1973 - Time: 01:00A A man and a woman in a parked car on the Canourge road, Mairieux, noticed a white metallic looking hemispherical object some 50 ft wide in the snow covered fields, 100 yards away. Presently a dark opening appeared in this, from which 6 beings, of 3 different kinds, emerged. First were 3 small humanoids with large heads, 4 ft tall. They had protruding eyes with conspicuous whites, holes for a nose, narrow mouths, and bulging cheeks; their arms were long. They were dressed in tight one- piece suits of metallic appearance. Each carried a dark box 6" on a side whose upper surface bore a round white luminous "screen." They walked slowly, with stiff small steps, and fanned out as if searching for something. Gradually they approached the road, until within 50 ft of the witnesses. Behind them, nearer to the hemisphere, stood 2 human figures about 6.5 ft tall, with light complexions and blond shoulder length hair, likewise dressed in tight fitting one piece metallic suits. Closest to the door stood a squat figure, with long dangling arms, apparently covered with dark fur, "resembling a bear of great ape." When after about 10 minutes the small beings began to approach the car, the young woman became frightened and jump out, slamming the door, and ran back to her own car which stood close by. At this, the man saw all the figures stood still, then the "animal" reentered the object, followed quickly by the 2 humans and then the 3 humanoids, which ran back with such long, swift strides that they looked as if they were "flying over the ground." The dark opening disappeared, and the UFO took on a brilliant metallic color, and rose vertically for 30 ft, then shot off westwards, becoming successively orange luminous, bluish, and reddish before dwindling to a point. This all happened with such speed that the young woman observed only the recession of the luminous object. The witnesses did not seek for traces in the snow. However, strange tracks in the snow were found later that morning by a Mrs. Michel and her children in the garden of their house in Maubeuge, 1.1 mile away, implying a connection. (1) Indeed, an incredible case which seems to suggest cooperation at some level between, I dare say, three different types of "aliens". The "squat hairy figure" is intriguing and I am sure it would send chills down the spines of some Bigfoot researchers. Here is another example in which a hairy humanoid is again seen onboard a UFO: Location. Near Tillamook Oregon Date: September 27 1989 - Time: 16:20 A woman was alerted by her granddaughter to something unusual outside. She stepped out and was confronted by an object resembling an inverted toy top hovering just above the ground. It was 20 to 30 feet in diameter and had a flat bottom and a bright yellow-white light shining at both ends. The woman approached to within 30 feet of the craft and a door opened revealing a blond human-like entity of average height with fair skin and blue eyes, wearing a silvery coverall. The woman then noticed at a window next to the door a large hairy, Bigfoot type creature apparently seated and only visible from the chest up. The woman stared at the object and beings for a few minutes, and then the object suddenly vanished from plain sight. (2) The connection here cannot be ignored and I will not conjecture as to what that "connection" is. With so many so-called abduction reports from all over the world many of the accounts have indeed become "boring" and repetitious in nature with the same sequence of events reported over and over again, but once in a while we run into a case which it is also an apparent abduction but even more out of the ordinary in nature, the following is a curious example from Brazil (a land rich with high strangeness incidents): Location. Curitiba, Brazil Date: January 1978 - Time: night Claudia accompanied her young son Cristovao, to the elevator so he could go down to play. In the elevator they met a strange man that smiled at Cristovao. Later worried about her son not returning home early she went to ask the doorman about her son and this one told her that he had not seen him get out of the elevator. They searched in vain for young Cristovao the rest of the night. Around the same time strange events were occurring in the apartment: objects were moving on their own volition and a sound similar to a "beep" was constantly heard. The next morning around 0800A an employee at a local power plant discovered Cristovao sleeping on the grounds of the plant. According to Claudia, Cristovao was emitting a very strong odor and told her an incredible story about boarding a "rocket" that took him to a yellow moon; from there he was taken to an even larger "moon." There he encountered a man and a woman that appeared to lack mouths. The humanoids apparently inserted some items in Cristovao head and gave him rice and fish to eat and a reddish gaseous drink. In that place Cristovao saw other children. He was later placed on a small bed, covered with a blanket and allowed to sleep. He told his mother that they would one day return for him. She also discovered several marks on he son's skin that had not been there previously. He kept pointing at the region of the sky where he said the "yellow moon" had appeared. The strange paranormal occurrences around the house continued for a while and then abruptly ceased. (3) Obviously not your "run of the mill" abduction account, the paranormal angle is also interesting here and must not be ignored but those "nuts & bolts" researchers that discard these reports out of hand. Sometimes an abduction is not really such in a sense that the witness or should I say victim? was not on a conscious level dragged or beamed up into some sort of craft or UFO, some of these incidences seemed to be a brief sojourn into a kind of parallel reality as the following case from Russia illustrates: Location. Rostov-on-Don, Russia Date: January 14 1978 - Time: 06:00A Three 18-year old men, Mikhail Babkin, Nikolay Leontyev and Vitaliy Kravchenko were in a room at the local sports complex "Oktyabryonok". They had been celebrating the passing of the old New Year with glasses of champagne and enjoying steam baths in the sauna and swimming pool, also eating mixed with some vodka. At 0600A the watchman proposed that the young men go home and accompanied to the rear exit of the building, through a long corridor with concrete walls without windows. The corridor was located in the basement area near the pool's walls. They were walking along the corridor in the following order, the watchman walking ahead, followed by Leontyev, then Babkin, and followed by Kravchenko. The corridor was very narrow. Suddenly Mikhail seemed to trip, despite the narrow corridor and the obvious lack of reason. The smooth concrete floor had no potholes. However Babkin's left leg had trip over some kind of "hole". He screamed and Leontyev turned around in amazement. He could not believe his eyes as he saw Babkin's shoulder penetrate into the concrete wall and in a moment Babkin's entire body vanished into the wall. He disappeared, apparently dissolving into the wall (!). The stunned witnesses began examining the wall with their hands looking for any doors or crevasses but their hands only touched concrete. Mikhail later told his friends that he had suddenly entered a small and dark room. To his left he could see an object, which resembled a medical examination chair. Across from him he could see a slightly opened door. There was a narrow window on the right wall of the room. He could see tops of trees entirely covered in dense green leaves, they were moving about in a strong wind. Babkin was amazed, it was in the middle of winter, but outside this "window" it appeared to be summer and broad daylight. Also a few seconds ago he had been walking in an underground corridor and here he was looking at a view of a fourth story floor. Moving as if in a trance Babkin moved towards the slightly opened door and pushed it open. He then entered another room, also shrouded in gloom. There was a round platform on the ceiling that gave off a faint light and there were no windows in the room. A similar "medical chair" stood near the wall. He felt very lightheaded and moved about like a robot, he walked forward and opened another door stepping into the strangest room yet. It was absolutely dark, with some bright areas visible in the inky darkness. The lights seemed to hypnotically influence Babkin. He became numb unable to look away from the lights. Suddenly he noticed several black humanoid figures that appeared in front of him, faintly lit by the pulsating patches of light. Their heads appeared rectangular in shape. They were five of them and they stood unmoving in front of him. One of the humanoids, standing in the front was slightly hunched over and appeared to be working in some kind of device that gave off light. The device was not big, resembling a "corncob" with a pointy end, which was pointed directly at Babkin. The object emanated a very bright light but strangely it did not illuminate the surrounding area. Babkin then heard a male voice inside his head, the voice said, "This one?" Another voice, also inside Babkin's head answered, "No not him". The first voice then said immediately, "Memory erasure is necessary". This phrase frightened Babkin terribly. He realized that with deafening clarity that it was his memory that was going to be erased. Horrified, Babkin seemed to snap out of his confused state and ran out the door and suddenly jumped back into the corridor of the sports complex, screaming inarticulate remarks. He heard a door closed behind him with a loud slam, when he turned around the door was gone. His friends had been searching for him for about an hour, running across the complex in complete despair. But according to Babkin he had spent only five minutes in that other strange parallel world. (4) This is of course a previously unknown case in "Western" Ufology but known in Eastern Europe where similar incidents have been recorded. It is difficult to classify such an event, which describes what appeared to be a totally alien environment (city?) apparently beyond our normal senses ability to detect. Some abductions are what I call permanent abductions perhaps rare as far as that they are not normally witnesses by others except by the victim or victims and obviously they will not be able to report it, but there are rare examples like the following example again from Brazil: Location. Piranhas near Rondonopolis, Goias, Brazil Date: January 19 1978 - Time: 17:15 Six young boys were playing soccer on a field when they saw a luminous disc shaped object flying over the area. It flew at treetop level then stopped and descended to the ground without making a sound. Four of the boys ran terrified to their houses and two remained behind. Two cousins, Manoel Roberto & Paulinho Roberto had stayed behind. The children told their parents and a search for the two cousins ensued. Later after midnight a telephone call from the police alerted the family of Manoel Roberto that he had been picked up by an engineer Mr. Touro in the nearby city of Rondonopolis, cold and hungry and looking for shelter. Later he narrated that as the object landed his cousin Paulinho and himself also tried to run but were unable to move. They were then attracted towards the object. Inside the craft they found themselves in a large room where there was only a chair and a button. In the room there were also eight short humanoids, wearing reddish rubbery tight-fitting suits, there faces were human-like. Both boys remained on the chair unable to move, until one of the short men approached and passed his hand over the side of the chair. Later the object landed in Rondonopolis and Manoel was let go by the humanoids. Around the same time there was a reported power outage in the area. His cousin Paulinho has never been seen or heard from again. His whereabouts remain unknown. (5) I venture to guess that in many instances which no rational explanation is found for the disappearance of an individual or individuals UFO abduction could be a reasonable answer. The following is another example of a witnessed abduction from South America: Location. Cajamarca, Peru Date: December 26 1976 - Time: 18:00 While numerous farmers were returning home from the fields, walking along the main road they observed an intense violet light that was approaching the group from a distance of about 120 meters away. Ahead of the group were Candelaria Tucto Chilon and her young daughter. As everyone watch stunned the light seemed to transform itself into a metallic disc-shaped object the likes of which had been seen in numerous occasions in the region. The craft approached Candelaria and her daughter and without stopping it transformed itself into a bright violet light again, which seemed to enveloped mother & daughter, the light then disappeared into the sky. Mother and daughter were never seen again. Three witnesses testified to the civil guard about the truthfulness of the incident. (6) Here still is yet another example again from Brazil: Location. Navegantes Beach, Santa Catarina, Brazil Date: August 31 1974 - Time: night Antonio De Azevedo, an angler, was on the beach with his wife when they saw a discoid object with varicolored lights land close beside them. It was shaped like "two plates with the rims stuck together." The vivid lights temporarily "paralyzed" the observers. From the object emerged "3 strange short beings wearing greenish spacesuits;" their faces "seemed to reflect the green color of their clothes." Conversing in a strange language, they quickly "examined" the angler and his wife, then seized the latter and took her into the object, which took off at incredible speed. (7) Apparently the woman was never seen again. Another high- strangeness category in my point of view in instances in which a close encounter with an unknown craft or a humanoid results in death or grievous injury to the witness or witnesses soon after the incident or unexpectedly some time afterwards. The following is a sample from Peru: Location. Tingo Maria Peru Date: November 20 1968 - Time: unknown It was reported that in a jungle area a large disc shaped object descended and came to rest on the ground near three boys that were playing in a nearby field. Curious they approached the object and noticed two short figures standing next to it. One of the boys attempted to get nearer the object but he suddenly went unconscious. The two short beings signaled the other two boys to approach and to retrieve their fallen friend, which they did. The child was supposedly taken to a local hospital where he died suffering from third degree burns. On the site an area of scorched brush was found. No other information. (8) Apparently not intentional on the part of the UFO occupants at all, but the following cases is curious: Location. Pedrosa del Rey, Valladolid, Spain Date: July 21 1975 - Time: 19:00 Farmer Emiliano Velasco Baez was working his fields on his John Deere tractor in an area known as Parcel 21 when suddenly a strange sound attracted his attention. Thinking that the motor had been damaged he was about to stop the tractor when he saw only about 20 meters away from and hovering about 80 cm from the ground, a very bizarre looking object. The craft then began to slowly turn towards the witness at this point he was able to observe it in detail. He described it as a metallic cylinder with a sombrero shaped cupola on top, and a V-shaped support on the bottom. He saw what appeared to be a window and a door on the object. The objects trajectory took it to only about 3 meters from the witness. At this point a deafening whistling sound invaded the area. While performing one of its turns the witness felt and saw a beam of light that apparently struck him and his tractor drilling a perfectly round hole on the rearview mirror of the tractor. Now somewhat scared Emiliano accelerated his tractor and quickly drove away from the area. Years later after suffering from numerous ailments that only began to afflict him after the encounter with the unknown object Emiliano Velasco Baez died. His wife always attributed his death to the UFO encounter. (9) One might suggest that the beam emitted by the UFO was a defensive reaction, but why not put it on stun? The following case seems to suggest some type of radiation poisoning: Location. Nildottie South Australia Date: early 1979 - Time: evening The two witnesses Jack and Don had been experiencing problems with their TV antenna being twisted around. The cause puzzled them. One evening after cooking a meal, the Venetian blinds went up and down. Both went outside to look and were approached by European looking people. They appeared to be wearing woolen jumpers. There were both male and females. A bright light shone on them and both men felt calm. They were then taken over to a mound of gravel adjacent to which a craft was located. The men were taken inside. It was cold and the beings apparently agreed to escort them back to the house to get jumpers. They were not allowed to take food. They then returned to the object and it took off. As it rose they saw the TV antenna on the house below twist around. They could see across the Murray River as they rose up. Don, the younger of the two, was given strange, repetitive tests. Seven hours later they were returned. When a neighbor visited and found them confused, police were called in. The two men were taken to a local hospital. They seemed to be suffering from yellow jaundice and eye problems. Both men passed away within two years of the encounter. (10) The following case seems to have a direct connection between UFO activity and deaths of humans: Location. Vila Gorete, Para, Brazil Date: beginning of September 1979 - Time: night Near the banks of the River Tapajos several witnesses including one Maria Lopes, reported seeing a large disc-shaped object descend and land silently in a wooded area near the river. From inside the craft two men and a woman came out which then proceed to approach a couple of possibly drunk & sleeping fishermen that were lying on the ground and offered no resistance. Lopes and other fishermen watched the scene from nearby unable to move. In the morning they found both fishermen dead. On the chest area right above where the heart is on each man was found dozens of needle-like objects inserted into the heart, strangely each man had about 5,000 cruceiros in their pockets. Panic swept the area and according to locals a strange luminous object appeared almost every night over Vila Gorete, it would then descend over the forest and land on a clearing. Other witnesses near Belem reported seeing huge yellowish sphere flying overhead and a man reported seeing three strange man-like figures wearing metallic bronze-colored uniforms walking on the banks of Lake Utinga. (11) =46rom 1976 through well into the 90's the area of Northern Brazil was flooded with numerous UFO reports and incidents which caused harm and injury to the witnesses. The activity is well documented in the official Brazilian Army report "Operacion Prato" (Operation disc or plate). Another type of report that should be considered as having very high strangeness content is reports of giant entities or aliens, which are not very common but are indeed dramatic. Here is one example from Spain: Location. Tarifa Spain Date: September 1964 - Time: 02:30A The witness was walking back to his home alone on a path along the coast and as he neared his home on the cobbled road, he noticed a strange silence and his dogs that usually greeted him were nowhere in sight. As he turned a corner he caught sight of an enormous humanoid standing by the roadway next to a rock wall. The being was about 3 =BD meters tall. The witness was stunned but strangely did not feel any fear. The humanoid wore a tight fitting scaly gray colored diving suit. It was of normal built except for slightly narrow shoulders. The being stood there, looking out to sea. The witness was not able to see any clear details of the face or head area. The being then spoke in perfect Spanish, asking the witness if there were any fish factories in the area and if he was from around these parts. They stood and looked at each other for a few moments and then the witness continued on to his house and did not see the being's departure. He almost fainted as he arrived home. (12) Or consider this fascinating encounter from Uganda in Africa: Location. Between Kinyara & Kitanosie, Uganda Date: 1995 - Time: night The anonymous witness whilst walking home on a road through the sugar cane fields, abruptly stopped by the side of the road by an unfinished air strip and turned to his left and there stood a huge red colored winged creature with glowing blond curly hair and what seemed to be a halo effect surrounding his head. The sugarcane at the time had been left uncut for many years and stood about 16 ft tall. The "angel" was about 12 ft tall and the most beautiful creature that he had ever seen, the being appeared to have an additional set of ribs that were below his normal ribs unlike a human being, at waist level his legs were fur like and it stood upon hooves instead of feet. They stood about 60 ft apart and just looked at each other for about 5minutes. The being exuded a very bright light from its body and his head, which gave a halo effect. The witness thrust his hand towards the being as a gesture of contact and at this point heard a message of a religious nature and of future warning for humanity, all in his mind. After the message the "Red Angel" turned and his wings unfurled and trailed behind his body as he returned back into the sugar cane. The witness continued to walk towards home. About 150 yards further up the road the "Red Angel" appeared again standing amongst the cane. The witness turned and faced him again, this time standing about 30 ft away, the being's face, although white was glistening black as if in shadow. Soon the bizarre humanoid disappeared into the sugarcane field again. (13) There are those reports that describe entities so bizarre in nature that the only plausible explanation as to what they are can only be a hybrid or maybe even a clone of some kind, read the following example: Location. Hollywood, Florida Date: April 2003 - Time: 01:00A Two women came to the side of the South Florida gatehouse where "June" worked as a security guard. They said that there was something strange out by the curb, about 100 feet away, but they didn't know what it was. It was on the road just east of the driveway. The women were upset and seemed to think that something was very wrong. June instructed the women to wait in their car by the gatehouse while she went to investigate. If there were any problems they could call the police on their cell phone. June walked out to the curb and found sitting on the curb, curled up into a ball somewhat smaller than a beach ball a strange "person". With her flashlight June could see a neck and a dark suit. Gently, June touched the figure and said, "Hello!" but there was no movement. Finally as June touched the shoulder, a small woman suddenly unwound from the curled up ball position. She was about 4'8" tall with very high heels on her shoes. She was dressed very well with beautiful jewelry, a leather purse, diamond appearing earrings and long red hair that fell to her shoulders and very large brown eyes, a small nose and a tiny barely noticeable mouth. She appeared to be about 24 years of age and appeared to be afraid. June questioned her gently: June: What are you doing? Woman: "I m waiting". June: "For whom"? Woman: "A-a-a ride" June: "Well, who is supposed to pick you up?" Woman: "I don't know" June: "Honey, come off the curb and stand next to me" June put her hand around the little woman and noticed that she maybe weighed about 70 pounds, had long arms and very long fingers. Her pinstriped suit with a skirt looked as though it could have been made in the 1940's. Finally the woman looked at June and asked: Woman: Where am I? June: Well we're on earth, and it's the 4rth rock from the sun. (!) Woman: "Oh=85." June: "Can I do anything for you? Do you need the police? Woman: "The who"? June: "The Police" Woman: What do they do? (Was her stunning response) June: They might be able to help. Woman: No I am all right. I am just going to wait. June took hold of her and insisted she come with her to the gatehouse to talk for a while. But the strange woman insisted that she wanted to wait by the curb. At this she sat back down and curled up into a ball again. Reluctantly June returned to the gate where she found the other two ladies still waiting in their vehicle. June then called the police, which came around and spoke to the woman for 45 minutes but could not detain her. They told June that the woman did not have any identification on her, and no keys, but had some money and small papers with scribbles on them in her purse. They said that they had no reason to detain her and left. After the police left, June went out to check on the little woman but this one had vanished into thin air. (14) In 1973 there occurred an encounter in England that seemed to epitomize the term "high-strangeness" in its entire splendor. The tale is haunting almost fairy tale like in nature: Location. Sandown Isle of Wight England Date: May 15 1973 - Time: 16:00 Fay, 7, with a boy about her own age, was on the golf links when they heard a wailing siren like sound. They followed it through a hedge into a swampy meadow. The noise ceased. As they were crossing a brook by a footbridge, a strange figure came out from under the bridge. This person fumbled with a book, dropped it in the water, retrieved it, and then went with "a strange hopping motion, with knees raised high" to a metallic "hut" with no windows. The being was nearly 7-foot tall and neck less. He wore a yellow, pointed, hood like hat with a black knob on top and "wooden" antennae or horns on the sides, and a green tunic with a red collar. "His face had triangular markings for eyes, a brown square of a nose and motionless yellow lips." Other round markings were on his paper-white cheeks, and a fringe of red hair fell onto his forehead. "Wooden slats" protruded from his sleeves and from below his white trousers. There were only three fingers on each blue-glove hand and 3 toes on his bare, white feet. The being carried from the hut a black knobbed microphone, into which he spoke (the children were now 50 yards away), saying "Hello, are you still there?" Since his tone sounded friendly, they approached him. He then wrote in a "notebook", in a large hand, "Hello and I am all colors, Sam." Talking without the aid of a microphone-his lips did not move, and his speech was unclear-he "asked the children about themselves." They "asked about his clothes, which were all ripped" and "asked if he was really a man." "No", he replied, with a chuckle. When they asked if he was a ghost, he answered "Well, not really, but I am in an odd sort of way." "What are you then?" they asked, but he replied, "You know." He also said that he had no name, and "confided that he was frightened of people." At his invitation, the children crawled through a flap into his hut, which he told them he had "just made." It contained two levels. The lower, which "had plenty of headroom", was "wall papered" in blue green and covered with a pattern of dials; there was an electric heater and simple wooden furniture. The upper level, less spacious, had a metal floor. He told the children that he fed upon berries, which he collected, and drank the river water after "cleaning" it. He said he had a "camp" in the mainland. Inside the hut he removed his hat to reveal round, white ears and sparse brown hair. Before eating a berry, he performed an "odd trick" with it; he placed the berry in his ear, where it disappeared and reappeared at one of his triangular eyes; "repeating the process, the berry traveled to his mouth." The children talked to this being for at least half an hour, then rushed across the golf links to tell the firs man they met they had seen a ghost. (15) The above represent encounters represent the high-strangeness spectrum in UFO and humanoid encounters, all are out of the norm and almost unbelievable in nature but all are documented by respected researchers. Of course there are countless others, many recent but I will save that information for another occasion. Albert S Rosales August 1 2005 Sources: 1. - Joel Mesnard & Jean Marie Bigorne 2. - Mufon Journal # 264 April 1990 3. - Pablo Villarubia & Mario Rangel 4. - X-Libri UFO Russia & Alexey K. Priyma "Unknown Worlds" 1996 5. - Guillermo Manuel Gimenez ONIFE-CEP 6. - "Mas Alla de La Ciencia" 1991 7. - Gordon Creighton FSR Vo. 21 # 2 8. - Fabio Picasso 9. - Iker Jimenez, "Encuentros, Historia de los Ovnis en Espa=F1a" 10. - Bill Chalker "The Oz Files" 11. - Iker Jimenez "Las Luces de la Muerte" quoting Jorge Thor 12. - J. J. Benitez "La Quinta Columna" (The Fifth Column)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Auchettl From: John Auchettl - PRA Melbourne <praufo.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 15:00:08 +1000 (EST) Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:01:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Auchettl >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 20:51:41 -0300 >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 11:24:47 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >Also here is a quote from an item I just found in an efficiency >Report about Corso from H.S. Craig, Chief Special Projects >Staff, June 25, 1955 >"Col. Philip J. Corso has been performing liaison duties with >various member agencies of the Operations Coordinating Board and >continues to prepare certain intelligence estimates which are >part of the staff function of this organization." Stan, Did H.S. Craig, Chief Special Projects Staff, June 25, 1955 addressed P.J. Corso as a Colonel? What a COL? How contemptible... obviously a CSPS prank, a hoax document. Oh well, the killer noose may be in the '1954 efficiency report or the 1953 or the 1952.... in his Officers Mess dining or ablution account - lets take a squize shall we. What fun. John Auchettl PRA - Director
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: UFO Hunters - Cekander From: Larry Cekander <larryroyc.nul> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 22:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:05:07 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Hunters - Cekander >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:15:58 -0400 >Subject: UFO Hunters >The History Channel show, UFO Hunters, may be the best >documentary yet. >Greenewald and all the others who put it together are to be >congratulated. This is the first of 4 installments, according to >the historychannel.com web page. >Next is Aug 8, then Aug 22 then Aug 29. >"Let the investigation continue." I have to aggree one hundred percent... This is the best presentation of physical evidence ever. John And Grossman/Weller should be congradulated on a job well done. And not one mention of Roswell thank god.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 19:40:39 -1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:20:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Salla >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 20:51:41 -0300 >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 11:24:47 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:49:06 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>This bogus MJ-12 "1st" Annual Report refers to >>>agencies that did not even exist yet in 1947 or 1952 as carrying >>>out such things as Roswell-related "radiation monitoring >>>flights" in NM in 1947 supposedly done by "AFTAC" an agency that >>>was not even created until 1959! >>My god... I have found something that Brad and I agree on! >>The 1st Annual Report - it's membership reportedly included >>Hoyt Vandenberg (see its front page). Vandenberg died in 1954. >>So he _could_ have been on this committee in 1952. >>But..."Annex A" of the "Report" makes a reference to Fort >>Detrick. However, Fort Detrick did not take that name until >>1956. Prior to that it was Camp Detrick. >>So how could Vandeberg - who died in 1954 - be on a committee >>that was sending materials to a place - Fort Detrick - that >>didn't exist by that name until 1956, two years after his death? >>Was he cloned? Miraculously resurrected in some event of >>Biblical proportions? Or maybe the story of his death was just a >>cover? Nope to all 3. >>He died in 54. Fort Detrick didn't exist by that name until >>1956. The document is not what it appears to be. The end. >I am completely convinced that the supposed first Annual Report >is a fraudulent document. As are just about all the other Tim >Cooper documents, as I noted in my MUFON 2000 paper. >Brad and Nick have given several reasons. Let me add one more. >Paragraph 2 in The Conclusions section is just about verbatim >from a supposed Memo for the President from General Twining >dated 26 September 1947. >However, this in turn is clearly an emulation of a real letter >from General Albert C. Wedemeyer (Published in his book >"Wedemeyer Reports" dated 19 September 1947. >Twining supposedly said that he (like Wedemeyer) had been gone >for 2 months, had people from State, Treasury, War and Navy >Departments and produced 1200 memoranda.Twining's flight log >proves he was gone only for a week, and (according to the >Lamogordo newspaper)did not have guys from these agencies, and >could hardly have produced 1200 memoranda etc... >Michael Salla, please note the above. >Also here is a quote from an item I just found in an efficiency >Report about Corso from H.S. Craig, Chief Special Projects >Staff, June 25, 1955 >"Col. Philip J. Corso has been performing liaison duties with >various member agencies of the Operations Coordinating Board and >continues to prepare certain intelligence estimates which are >part of the staff function of this organization." >I think we can all agree that "This Organization" refers to the >OCB... not NSC. Stan, Thank you for your caution regarding the 1st Annual Report, I will certainly study it more before commenting further on it. As far as the OCB and NSC issue is concerned, we have already established that the OCB was created by a 1953 EO as an independent agency that reported directly to the NSC. That is not being disputed. The issue is Brad Sparks contention that the OCB only became part of the NSC in 1957 with the issuing of EO 10700. I'm pointing out that since the OCB was part of the mechanism established for executing NSC decisions that it was informally part of the NSC - a de facto part of the NSC. This is clearly demonstrated in Robert Cutler's history of the OCB over the years 1953-58 which I repeatedly pointed out to Brad Sparks. Cutler's statement along with the FBI report both refer to the OCB being part of the NSC. Those are historical documents that can't be ignored, and both of which support Corso's claim of being a staff member to the NSC. We also have the Senate Select Committee hearings that refer to Corso as part of the NSC. Again, another historical document supporting Corso. Furthermore, it should be pointed out that it is a historical fact that the OCB was part of the NSC. That is not something that can be disputed due to EO 10700. Consequently, what is being debated is whether in the period 1953-56 it was accurate to describe the OCB as a part of the NSC, albeit a de facto part. The historian that Brad Sparks cited, William Jackson, was on the record in 1954 for strengthening the relationship between the OCB and NSC so we can see that this period was one of historical evolution where the relationship between the OCB and the NSC evolved and culminated in EO 10700 that led to the OCB moving from the State Dept offices to the Executive Office building. Nevertheless, during all that time, the OCB never ceased to be part of the implementing mechanism for NSC decisions as Cutler pointed out which together with its reporting requirements made it a de facto part of the NSC. In conclusion, Corso was regarded by his contemporaries as having served with the NSC as is borne out by the FBI document. What is remarkable is that so many veteran UFO researchers are quick to conclude that Corso was lying, rather than understand that the relationship between the NSC and OCB was fluid and evolving, and nuanced. It should be pointed out that Brad Sparks makes a very strong claim against a well credential military officer, i.e., Corso lied about his NSC service. Brad makes an argument which is quite weak since it is basically a case of historical revisionism based on a literal interpretation of EO 10700. For those not aware of what constitutes historical revisionism, here is a statement from the Wikipedia Encyclopedia: "Historical revisionism is the reexamination of the accepted "facts" and interpretations of history, with an eye towards updating it with newly discovered, more accurate, and less biased information. Broadly, it is a skeptical approach, that history as it has been traditionally told may not be entirely accurate, and that perhaps an accurate history is as unobtainable as a dispassionate autobiography. While reinterpreting past events in light of new facts is the essence of good scholarship, some distort these facts as a means of influencing readers' beliefs and actions for politically biased reasons." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism Brad Sparks has not offered compelling facts to support his case that Corso lied about his NSC record. He is merely using his bias towards a literal interpretation of Executive Orders to support the case that prior to the EO formally incorporating OCB into the NSC, it was not a part of the NSC - de facto or de jure. That is historical revisionism as is clear from what I have already mentioned concerning Cutler's remarks of the OCB and the FBI report where it was accepted that OCB was associated with the NSC. In conclusion, it's poor scholarship to support a strong claim such as Corso being a liar with a weak or 'sceptical' argument based on historical revisionism.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 UFO Research Queensland's 25th November Meeting From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:10:00 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:26:51 -0400 Subject: UFO Research Queensland's 25th November Meeting Important Notice UFO Research Queensland's 25th November Public Meeting To avoid any confusion, the Freddy Silva, November 25th Meeting, as advertised on UFO Research Queensland's site is only a video/DVD/book presentation. Freddy Silva will not be speaking. His post-conference talks will only be at the Sunshine Coast (27th Sept), Gold Coast (29th Sept) and Sydney (1st Oct). See the August-September 2005 issue of Nexus Magazine for correct, up-to-date details. Robert Frola AUFORN ----- From: lovely272.nul To: ufologist.nul Date: 25 July 2005 9:22:48 PM Subject: Re: SPEAKING IN BRISBANE, AUSTRALIA Hello Robert, Correct. It is an error, and I am only in Aussie for ten days, exactly as advertised on my site. Not sure who had that idea, but I am touched by the thought :-) Cheers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:05:12 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:30:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:52:17 -0700 >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 08:35:54 EDT >>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>Why do government disinformation agents have to target Roswell >>researchers? In your July 25 posting you said they would have >>been "putting [this disinformation story] in the public domain." >>Which is it, targeting Roswell researchers or the public? Why >>can't it be both? Surely you can't seriously think that you >>would be of no interest or use to UFO disinformation operations, >>given your background as a journalist and UFO author. >Brad >Yes of course it can be both the public and UFO researchers. >And, no, they don't have to just target Roswell researchers. >What I fail to understand is: why specifically target me? They didn't just target you. Jim Wilson of Popular Mechanics in about 1996 also got hit with the Japanese bodies/hideous secret experiments story of Roswell, complete with Fugo balloons hybridized with Horten-type gliders. You wrote, "It certainly can't be attributed to 'coincidence.' " (p. 131) You remember saying that in your book? You keep assuming you're the only one to receive these stories, like you're specially privileged. You also tacitly assume as a hidden premise in all of your arguments against you being the victim or target of a disinformation plot that this has to be a major, hugely important (thus expensive) disinformation project for it to be disinformation at all - because you say they are "trying to hide the story of the millennium." You assume the disinfo agents are in on this biggest secret "of the millennium" when in fact that would violate every principle of security and compartmentation which strives to keep the number of people knowing a secret to a minimum. The "keepers" of such secrets would be nuts to go and tell a bunch of low-level flunkies who were professional liars, agitators and disruptors the nation's most closely-guarded secrets of all! I do not think "they" are hiding the secrets of extraterrestrial visitation anyway, though it's a matter for investigation. Such disinfo ops do not have to be hiding any secrets at all, they could just be used to create "confusion" in the UFO research community (as you yourself suggest in your book) for reasons of long-standing orders that are not explained to the disinfo agents carrying them out - again they have no "need to know" any supersecrets or the supersecret high-level policy reasoning behind their orders. Their job is to obey the orders. The part of my post was deleted, where I explained that the vast increase in covert ops budgets since 9-11 has no doubt resulted in all sorts of harebrained schemes getting funded (or old abandoned projects newly revived). That's a major factor that has nothing to do with covering up some special secret or with some development in civilian research into the Roswell case that you assume must be what is targeted. The hugely important, hugely expensive, vast disinformation program is a convenient strawman to knock down. But it does not fit the historical profile of government UFO disinformation operations (and many non-UFO covert operations), which were low-level, low cost (probably so inexpensive they were "off the books" as not large enough to require project accounting), and usually low priority. So contacts and initiatives might be dropped or stalled for no apparent reason for long periods of time due perhaps to such things as a new supervisor comes on board at AFOSI who wants to review all projects, or someone key to a project leaves for another agency (or goes on extended leave because of cancer or a death in the family, or whatever). Or the departmental budget for the disinformation unit was slashed severely (under, say the Clinton administration, for example). Or a public scandal such as Watergate or the exposure of CIA funding to the National Student Association causes all similar scandal-sensitive ops to go low profile or be terminated outright for fear of the ever- widening scope of the revelations. Or again it could be something mundane and bureaucratic such as several disinformation, psych war and deception ops units being merged, or moved to a new building or a new location entirely. (For example, recently CIA's domestic covert ops division of its Clandestine Service, called the National Resources Division, was moved right out of Langley, Va., CIA HQ by the new DCIA Porter Goss and sent lock, stock and barrel to the boonies in Colorado. Can you imagine the disruption that caused to NRD covert ops? Can you imagine the major drop in morale and the wave of resignations that it likely caused? Probably a number of CIA families just did not want to move from their roots in Virginia to go to Colorado. Etc. etc. This stuff happens and you can't argue that because an operation seems to have stalled or stopped that it could not be a covert op at all.) >When "Body Snatchers" was published in June of this year, this >was the first UFO book I had published for nearly _six and a >half years_. My last book, strictly on UFOs, was Cosmic Crashes, >published in March 1999 and that was never published in the US. You were approached _before_ your 6-year hiatus in UFO books! You were first approached with this Japanese Bodies Fugo-Horten Roswell story in 1996. Others apparently were also approached and Jim Wilson of Popular Mechanics did publish the story in 1997. There were probably a number of UFO-related researchers and media types who were approached and rejected the approaches, which we simply don't know about, perhaps all throughout the 1996 to 2001 period and even earlier (before 1996) and later (after 2001) so this argument proves nothing. This simply is an empty argument to use to suggest the impossibility of you and your book being disinformation. The rest of your arguments are like the craziest nitpicking excuses as to why disinformation agents could not or would not do this or that, including some kind of rule you made up on the spot that says "No UFO book author will be used for disinformation if they have not published a UFO book in more than 6 years." Like, huh? Whaaaaaat???? You lost me with that one. Basically you are micromanaging the disinformation project from afar and in the blind, so that every error, every dropped lead, every faltering effort by the covert ops project becomes a piece of evidence in your argument against the existence of all this being a deception by disinformation agents of the government. For example, later on in this posting you micromanage Salter's story even as to the number of pages it occupies in your book, claiming that the small page count argues against it being disinformation! But some of the biggest propaganda lies of all time are one-line political slogans! They do not even occupy a paragraph let alone a page. >>Your new scenario for Roswell still includes balloon debris from a >>top secret military project, and still claims the strange bodies are >>from another crash in NM at another date, not at Roswell, so it >>really is not too different from the Mogul Balloon and Crash Test >>Dummy scenarios. >>In fact your "Colonel" states "Mogul is just a convenient >>cover," so Mogul is a part of this new scenario, as a cover >>story or "diversion" for it (p. 134). >Yes, but my point was that the Mogul and crash-test dummy >covers _are_still_in_place. And introducing such a controversial >cover would only add to the suspicion that Mogul might not be >the answer. You've got to be kidding. The AF's Crash Dummy Theory brought howls of laughter in the press briefing room when it was announced in June 1997. If any thing undermined and cast suspicion on the AF's Mogul Balloon Roswell Theory of 1994 it was the ridiculous Crash Dummy nonsense. If "they" could introduce such a seemingly self-defeating new proposition to the mix in 1997 you can hardly argue that "they" would never put forward the Japanese Bodies Fugo- Horten theory in that same time frame 1996-7, especially since the Fugo Balloon-Horten- Bodies scenario is still similar to the Mogul Balloon and Crash Dummies scenarios, as I pointed out in the posting you commented on above. But since you do not really understand the policy history of the UFO disinfo ops you really cannot say why something was or was not done. For example, suppose there were deception ops groups in different agencies coming up with different scenarios? (No, the coordination among intelligence and covert ops agencies is very poor, as shown by 9-11, and is still poor despite 9-11. There is a long history of such lack of coordination going back to the Bay of Pigs and even Pearl Harbor.) Until you trace the histories and policies of the specific agencies involved in the "disinformation" you cannot really say one way or another. And it has to be reality-based policy analysis not Exocranial (out of their head/mind) disinformation twaddle, with its typically reckless disregard of facts, dates, organizational structures, the broader policy contexts and history, etc., as we've seen with the Corso OCB/NSC swill. >It doesn't matter if people accept the data of the >sources - the mere fact of introducing a new Roswell angle as >disinformation means that people will look into Roswell again, >And I fail to see why the "keepers of the secret" would want us >to do that. Again you're assuming that disinfo agents would be given the greatest secret of all time by the "keepers of the secret" contrary to all sane security principles. And you assume there is some such megasecret being kept. I've already explained why a disinfo program would be pursued for Cold War purposes and later other reasons. >>In your book you report that the purpose of the UFO >>disinformation was to cause "confusion" among UFO researchers >>(pp. 84, 89) by "flooding the UFO community with a mass of >>confusing, contradictory and outright bogus stories" (p. 89), by >>"muddying the waters" (p. 173). You should re-read the above and the paragraph below very carefully. >>Thus even if this new Roswell scenario did outright contradict the >>earlier Mogul story this would only help add "confusion" and >>"muddy the waters," just as the government disinformation plan >>presumably intends. <snip> >>>3. Why try to deflect interest from Roswell by saying they had >>>undertaken diabolical experiments on human beings? Again - >>>regardless of whether or not people believe the testimony - that >>>would only focus more attention on Roswell. >>See answer above, it sows "confusion" in the UFO community, >>which has been entangled in controversy over Roswell, virtually >>paralyzing its UFO research progress in other areas. So by >>focusing more attention on Roswell it is adding gasoline to the >>fire, making the Roswell-based confusion and chaos worse. You keep assuming Roswell is always the focus of the disinfo ops, instead of say, the UFO community as a whole, with Roswell used as a weapon of confusion and disruption. You keep ignoring the possibility that is raised that disinformation on UFO's was aimed at the Russians for Cold War reasons and then post-Cold War reasons. You don't bother to explore all those possibilities. >>In your July 25 post you admit that you did "get off the record, >>brief statements/data revelations from them" during this >>supposed "flat refusal" period (which was actually only about 16 >>months from July 28, 2001, to Dec. 6, 2003, by looking at the >>dates of your interviews in the back of your book as you told us >>to do). So it was not a complete blackout of information (or >>disinformation). You deleted the whole point of this exchange which was your question why "they" dropped contacting you for 18 months (it was actually only 16 months) from late July 2001 to Dec 2003, when supposedly you cannot see why a disinfo program would do that. I pointed out something called "9-11" on Sept 11, 2001, which certainly interrupted various covert ops worldwide. >No it wasn't a total lack of contact. But it _was_ a total lack >of complete interviews and a _definite refusal_to use the >accounts in published format. >Plus, look at the testimony of Bill Salter. This takes up all of >a massive _one and a half pages_ of a 248 page book (see pages >90-91). Employing someone like Salter into this program of >disinformation and then have him only relate enough information >to fill not even 2 pages, strikes me as very odd. <snip> >Having him just say words to the effect that "My information is >all second-hand" and then only relate enough to fill less than 2 >pages of the book, does not sound like disinformation. <snip> Again, a powerful one-line propaganda slogan could be more effective than all the pages and pages of rot. >>Uh, did you happen to notice that 9-11 happened shortly after >>this near-hiatus with your "sources" after July 28, 2001? >>Covert operations no doubt had to be seriously re-evaluated and >>put on hiatus or terminated in light of 9-11, which forced a >>rethinking of covert ops objectives and strategy. >Yes I did notice that. Well you don't mention that 9-11 could easily explain the 16- month lull in frequency and extent of your contacts, if as I contend they were low-key intelligence operatives disinforming you from time to time and not on some urgent rushed time schedule as if they were trying to overthrow a government. >But, again, introducing a new angle for >Roswell - even if people don't accept the data - is only going >to cause people to look into it more. Not a good thing if you >are trying to hide the story of the millennium. Again you keep assuming the disinfo agents would be entrusted with this supersecret "story of the millennium" when that would overturn every rule of security need-to-know, as I argued above. "They" introduced the Fugo-Horten-Bodies angle in 1996 and earlier, it was not "a new angle" in 2001. Keel was talking about an early version in 1990-1. >>This is what gets me about the UFO community, that it makes no >>effort to see its subject matter in the context of broader world >>events. It's as if there is a special "UFO world" that exists in >>its own vacuum >To an extent I agree with this re the "vacuum" comment. But >that, to me, only reinforces what I have been saying re.: why >spread further Roswell disinformation in the 21st Century? Unless you research the actual history and policy development behind the anti-UFO-group psychological warfare ops you cannot really evaluate the likely reasons this or that initiative was or was not undertaken at a certain time and place. You have assumed many erroneous intelligence and security policies and procedures such as the extravagant notion that some flunkie propaganda disinfo writer would be entrusted with the most ultrasensitive TOP SECRET Codeword supersecrets of the nation. These mistaken premises skew and twist the understanding of causes and effects in the dark bureaucratic world of intelligence and security, as I have already pointed out at length. There were early Cold War reasons which can be traced and later
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:41:51 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:48:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:31:19 -0300 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:09:02 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>What I am arguing for is that the forensic scientific approach >>should be a key part of our investigative arsenal in examining >>abduction cases. Raising the awareness of investigators, >>experiencers and the general public to these possibilities, is, >>I believe, very important and worthwhile. It will help us >>determine fact from fiction and will help anchor our >>speculations in some possible facts. For those reasons alone I >>believe "Hair of the Alien" is worthy of consideration. >I wholeheartedly agree with you when it comes to wanting to see >a forensic approach when investigating such cases. I, too, have >been arguing for this exact approach (see the section >'Ufologists as Criminalists?' on page 54 of my article in the >MUFON Canadian UFO Proceedings, Dartmouth, NS - September 18, >2004). Is it possible to get a copy of this paper? >Locards's Transference Principle (also known as Locard's >Exchange Principle), which says that the perpetrator always (a) >leaves something behind at, and (b) always takes something away >from, the scene of the incident, I believe, is something that >applies in such cases as we have been discussing here. I believe >that Edmond Locard's principle of cross-contamination applies >when the phenomenon interacts with us and that it always leaves >something of itself behind - we just have to be particularly >assiduous enough in finding and analyzing it. In my book "Hair of the Alien" I've kept my Locard discussion to the simple basics, namely every contact leaves a trace. I certainly realise that things a rather more complicated, and I even leave room for those that think that the intelligences behind UFOs are simply so clever and unknowable that maybe the approach you and I are in agreement with is a big waste of time. Because I obviously don't agree with the latter argument, but take it onboard, I certainly think such strategies as a scientific and forensic methodology are certainly worth the effort, even if the potential occurrences that might yield up useful information might be few and far between. Maybe if we all think about the forensic perspective then a lot of potential evidence might well come under consideration. >If enough investigators processed an 'abduction scene' in the >same manner as a 'crime scene' is processed - that is, go >through it with a fine-toothed comb - then I believe we would >find a lot more pieces of evidence that support the reality of >the alleged interaction, particularly if the incident is of the >nature of 'beings' in a person's bedroom. I don't think the >intelligence behind the phenomenon enters and leaves the point >of interaction while completely violating Locard's principle. >Clearly, if the Khoury case is legitimate, it doesn't. This case >may be showing us that the intelligence behind the phenomenon, >despite its sophistication, is subject to Locard's Exchange >Principle and does contaminate the scene, although in most cases >the contamination is not as obvious as a hair wrapped in the >foreskin of the person at the center of the event. >If we are waiting to secure evidence in the nature of a 'jacket' >inadvertently left on the bed or an anal probe accidently left >on the nightstand then I think we're going to be waiting >forever. Using available forensic technology and techniques to >detect the perhaps minute cross-contamination of the scene that >may be occurring could possibly secure enough evidence to show >something is really happening - even if detectable cross- >contamination occurs in only a percentage of cases. (It probably >occurs in all cases but often could be beyond our current >abilities to detect.) While I take your 'jacket' & 'anal probe' references as somewhat tongue in cheek a broader, but critically minded assessment of the possibilities in a whole range of experiences can yield a lot of potential alternate forms of evidence. Just the biological realm alone renders a lot of possibilities beyond the obvious. >I concur as well that the label is not the important point but I >do get uneasy with the label 'alien' as this has strong >connotations of 'extraterrestrial' in this field, despite the >fact that the word can refer to human beings, as in 'illegal >alien' being used to describe a person in a country without >authorization. Without a doubt, the 'hair' is fascinating, >intriguing, and anomalous. But I think it can just as easily >belong to one of a number of human beings who are part of an >older civilization evolved on Earth; human civilization may be >older than we think. That is not to say ET is not involved in >the UFO mystery, only that ET may be communicating with an older >human group on this planet. We may wonder why UFO's haven't >communicated with us after all this time after coming all this >distance but they may indeed be communicating with humans all >this time, just not our 'modern group of civilizations.' They >may think the modern groups are too violent or not progressed >enough for full, open communication yet but have had (and >maintain) a long-term, ongoing relationship with certain >inhabitants of our planet. These two groups working together >could also explain why abductees have noticed humans among the >so-called aliens during their episodes of interaction with the >UFO intelligence. The conspiracy theories saying our governments >are secretly in cohoots with the aliens might be a wrong >explanation of why human beings and alleged ETs are seen >together during abduction episodes. >The above are meant only as possible alternatives to the 'alien' >label and not be to construed as being part of my position on >UFOs. > >Nothing has been proven yet so I'm kind of uncomfortable with >labelling the hair as 'alien' especially when it seems to have >such strong human characteristics, and explanations other than >'alien' (if by 'alien' it is meant as in extraterrestrial) have >not been ruled out. I observed my first UFO more than thirty >years ago, when my mother was fortunate enough to peer inside, >for an extended period of time, a domed-disk at eye level from >less than six feet away. Even after more than thirty years of >looking into this mystery, I can honestly say I don't have my >mind made up on anything and am still confused as to what it was >we saw that night. Any subjective, personal thoughts or feelings >explaining it to myself have long dissolved, because if you stay >objective then you have to admit that we haven'y solved it yet. >Thus, I am not sure we should be calling 'the hair' alien, >especially when this word smacks so strongly of ET. But I >completely agree with you in that the label is not the important >issue - the strange characteristics of the hair and the >circumstances of how it came to be in Khoury's possession are >the real issues. Given that we are only talking about limited case data, and the fact that certainty might only come with more data, I keep my options open to possibilities weighted by the emerging evidence that is based on careful scientific and forensic evidence. This approach will assist our deliberations on the more subjective array of evidence that we have around us in great profusion. Regards,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:47:51 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:15:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:08:06 -0700 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:09:02 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 13:17:28 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>In terms of the "alien" label. The full range of DNA anomalies >>suggests it would be extremely difficult to find someone who >>might yield such an array of results. If you have any >>suggestions let me know. The rare Asian mongoloid mito DNA from >>the blonde hair shaft, the rare Basque Gaelic DNA as well, along >>with the suggestion of CCR5 delition factor, all make for an >>unusual donor. >This is definitely pointing to a unique donor! Also, there's the >matter of how the two women appeared and disappeared. That is >certainly unique, also. (I realize there's not a physically >present piece of evidence in support of that part of the story, >but nevertheless it's something to look at and ponder.) >Thanks to you and the others who provided the links I asked for >at the beginning. The following extract from one of my posts on my web log at: http//theozfiles.blogspot.com may provide some interesting food for thought on "the matter of how the two women appeared and disappeared": HAIR of the ALIEN - DNA paradigm, teleportation & "Elle-maids"? The extraordinary encounter Peter Khoury had with two strange female entities in his Sydney Australia home back in July 1992 provided my APEG team with a strange hair sample which ultimately yielded striking DNA results suggestive of advanced cloning & DNA techniques. This incredible case is a potent touchstone for the primary focus of my new book "HAIR of the ALIEN - DNA and other Forensic Evidence of Alien Abduction". The nature of the DNA evidence in this case supports the claims of Peter Khoury that he had a confronting encounter with a blonde female being, which seemed to involve bizarre behavioural elements. In an attempt to stop the claustrophobic and overpowering nature of the entity's actions - forcing him to her breast - Khoury bit her! He began to cough in apparent reaction. The strange pair are suddenly gone, in just as mysterious circumstances as their arrival in side what was thought to be a secure house. "There is important evidence of the women's presence to be recovered and a story to be told." The hair sample and the intriguing DNA data that emerged from it anchor Peter Khoury's experience in reality. It is not the stuff of hoaxing, delusion, hallucination or other prosaic factors. How did these strange women arrive and leave so suddenly? - a phenomenon often reported in UFO abduction experiences. The initial strange perception of the women by Peter Khoury (like he was seeing himself through a transparent version of himself) was rapidly replaced by the certainty for Peter Khoury that these women were really present. The hair sample recovered and the DNA results attest to that reality. Without that evidence it would have been tempting to view the encounter in rather more non- concrete terms - a vision, an apparition or a hallucination? Given the evidence perhaps the visitors arrival was facilitated by some phenomena such as what we might speculate as being "teleportation". During an open line segment on a ABC (Australian Broadcasting Commission) radio programme on March 24 1975 a caller identifying himself as Mr. Campbell described a "teleportation" (Star Trek style "beam up") experience he claimed he witnessed at his home not far from the US base in north western Australia at North West Cape. After observing a UFO passing low over the sea, Campbell claimed that later that evening at his home, while trying to recall details of the event, he felt "a telepathic presence in the room." Campbell said he felt this presence seemed to move closer as if engaged in watching him. He looked around and saw nothing, but somehow got the impression that the "presence" was about 5 feet 6 inches tall. Campbell claimed he tired of this situation and turned around and looked at the invisible "presence" at what would have been eye level and said, "Good day, mate." Campbell professed to not be prepared for what happened next, neither it seemed was the "presence". Campbell said he could see the shimmer of a form taking place. A feeling of coldness pervaded the room as a figure formed by striated horizontal bands of blue and yellow light began to appear. Even Campbell likened it to the TV show Star Trek "beam up" effect. Then just as quickly as it had appeared this manifestation started to reverse itself and then there was nothing, save a seemingly mental "telepathic concept" communicated to Campbell, to the effect of "clever" or "smart". Campbell surmised that when he turned around and said "hello", the "presence" must have thought it was visible, and began a process to rectify the apparent situation. Immediately realising it was becoming visible, Campbell thought, the "presence" reversed the process again, projecting the thought to Campbell that he was being "clever" or "smart". Two further "presences" appeared in his bedroom, one apparently amid the wooden bed structure. Campbell's wife began to wake up. He "suggested" to the "presences" they leave. With that, they apparently did and Campbell claimed there was an associated loud clicking noise as though some reforming process was occuring in the wooden bed structure in the wake of the "presences" departure. While the account is antecdotal it still captures some of the realities claimed by others who report encounters with "teleporting" UFO entities. Dr. David Darling (author of "The Extraterrestrial Encyclopedia", "The Universal Book of Mathematics" and "Life Everywhere - the Maverick Science of Astrobiology") has just had a book published entitled "Teleportation - the Impossible Leap". He was quoted at www.space.com saying, "Any strange comings and goings are candidates for teleportation, although you would obviously have to eliminate all mundane explanations first... According to reports, some UFOs do appear and disappear quite abruptly, which would fit in with the basic idea of teleportation. " The same can be suggested for many accounts of alleged encounters with aliens here on Earth. Darling speculated, "We might expect advanced aliens to be occassionally beaming in to check on our progress as a species."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: UFO Hunters - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 06:54:57 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:17:21 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Hunters - Lehmberg >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:15:58 -0400 >Subject: UFO Hunters >The History Channel show, UFO Hunters, may be the best >documentary yet. >Greenewald and all the others who put it together are to be >congratulated. This is the first of 4 installments, according to >the historychannel.com web page. >Next is Aug 8, then Aug 22 then Aug 29. >"Let the investigation continue." I have to agree, Sir. Mr. Greenewald performed a real base hit if not runs batted in. What I especially appreciated about it was the complete and utter rejection of the pelicanists position vis a vis their inclusion as even an _obligatory_ balance in the program. I'm betting this is because Greenwald perceives that balance alluded to has _never_ been provided by pelicanists in the first place, as they have only ever been apologists for denialism, anyway, and have _never_ been interested in a search for the reality of this 'thing' many of us think is there... even as we are precluded from knowing 'it'! Even as we are obstructed from proving 'it'... Can you feel the fog lifting, truthseeker? On a similar note, this is why fatuous comparisons of Dr. Salla and Philip Klass as like entities are duplicitous in the aggregate and the extreme. This is regardless of individual feelings on subject of Salla or Klass. The former is a truthseeker with the best of intentions who is expansive and inclusive in consideration... and who has sacrificed _much_ to prosecute his very rational suspicions, while the other is a lock-step and reactionary apologist for irrational denialism, decidedly cherry-picking with regard to evidence, a well-rewarded shill and mouthpiece for scientistic corruption and a hijacked mainstream... _and_ who had a large part in the tragic death of James E. McDonald. I won't be the only one thinking that. To equalize the two is to destroy the differences between them as inconsequential and irrelevant... when nothing could be more inopportune, intellectually porcine, and philosophically suspicious. It's a little like... even if Dr. Salla could be accused of expressing the "truth and a half", Mr. Klass hedged with only "half the truth" at best. In the former some truth can be winnowed out. The latter precludes any potentiality of same. Consider Friedman's Laws of Debunkery: 1). What the public doesn't know, we certainly won't tell them. Which would be most readily accused, reader? Who would deserve our censure for lying by omission? 2). My mind is made up, don't bother me with the facts. Which would be bothered by the facts? Who would be the first to actually look for them even to err on the side of too ready acceptance? 3). If one can't attack the data, attack the people. It is easier. Anyone guilty of this? Who is the scurrilous attacker and who is it that endures that attack? 4). Do one's research by proclamation rather than investigation. It _is_ easier, isn't it? Why, one can even quote from the 'masters' and imply that their dodgy interpretations of same are fact! They can make sweeping generalizations to prosecute their unadmitted agendas and still work to keep the rest of us in the intellectual dark, mired in their backstepping, homocentric, and reproductionist hubris, or keep us dead to a productive and progressive reality that should, very much, be ours. Why would we prosecute as an aggregate humanity to the galaxy what the United States prosecutes so unsuccessfully right here on planet Earth. Piracy is not success. A bill comes due. One can say what one wants regarding the now strained comportment of Dr. Salla... but it's not him that continues to respect the sensibilities a mainstream that has no respect for him; it's not him willing to roll over to grace the corrupt sensibilities of same; it's not him to sell out to an establishment pissing on his leg and proposing rain; its not him without courage of conviction and clarity of same... it's not him to suck down the klasskurtxian kool-aid... Nor is Mr. Greenewald and BlackVault, a ufologial forest of real trees who's gone a long way to pop the cork on truth's champagne bottle... along with the brave, brave men who contributed to it. Well done, Sirs! Well done!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:54:26 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:18:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Sparks >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:33:38 -0700 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 04:37:27 EDT >>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>You are flatly evading Don's questions with lawyer-type >>hairsplitting tactics. >Brad >I'm not evading anything, and nor would I. You evaded all the questions and comments (based on Don's originals) which you deleted from my posting! For example: "The whole "atomic pile" experiment could have been carried out on the ground." You answered nothing about that at all. >There would be no >point to me evading the question, because all of the data is in >the book on the May 1947 atomic event, for anyone and everyone >to see! So why on earth would I avoid discussing something that >I have openly written about, and that people could prove I had >written about??!! Well you are. Don's questions on the "atomic pile" still apply with equal force to the alleged "first" crash of late May 1947, the one that does have the Colonel claiming an "atomic pile" was flown and crashed, even if Don had not thought to apply the questions to that "first" crash but was thinking the "atomic pile" was allegedly involved the Roswell "second" crash, in July 1947. >Regardless of whether or not people accept the data of the >interviewees, the scenario that they talk about is of 6 or 7 >experiments (and maybe a few more) in the NM desert in 1947. >Roswell was only _one_ of those events and was not connected in >any way with anything remotely atomic. At all. >Don's question specifically focused upon 1 of those 6 or 7 (or >maybe more) experiments, namely Roswell, and I answered his >question re the atomic angle as it related to Roswell. That is evasive. Your answer to the "atomic angle" was that there was _none_ at Roswell. So instead of answering the "atomic angle" as it applied to the supposed May 1947 White Sands crash you acted like there was no "atomic angle" at all to discuss! If you weren't trying to be sly and evasive you would have said to Don that he had the wrong date and location for the "atomic pile" that was purportedly flown, and then addressed his questions as corrected. >If Don had asked his question about the _whole_ issue of what >the sources said about the _other_ crashes/collective crashes, I >would have addressed those. But as the only case brought up was >the _specific_ one about Roswell, that was the basis and >reasoning for my reply. That's why I said this was a lawyer-like tactic - if the question wasn't worded exactly correct then you took advantage of the errors to answer and deny a different question, taking advantage of Don's misunderstanding (doesn't matter what caused his misunderstanding) to dodge and evade the "atomic angle" and left Don and other readers in the dark or more confused. <snip> >>I am really surprised that no one has questioned the fact that >>in Nick's scenario this contraption would have been released >>with no safeguards in place. No chase planes or any monitoring >>from the ground. You left out the last sentence: "It was just released and let the chips - or atomic pile - fall where it may?" >Huh? No one says there _wasn't_ monitoring. According to the >Colonel, the May 47 crash occurred _on_ White Sands. In other >words, it had to have been monitored because the aircraft never >even left White Sands airspace. He further states that the Armed >Forces Special Weapons Project "are there;" to coordinate and >contain the crash site. Note: "are there." Not: "arrived later." Where was there a runway or landing strip at White Sands in 1947? Was not in fact the only runways at Alamogordo Army Air Field (the later renamed Holloman AFB)? How was such an outlandish "atomic pile" "device" (p. 106) to crash with horrendous radiation contamination spewed everywhere in plain sight of people at Alamogordo Field and in the town of Alamogordo and somehow be kept secret? >>What if this thing had crashed in a town or city >>nearby? >Why would it crash in a town? This was strictly an up-and-down >on a military range, towed into the air and released for a >controlled landing that only failed because of a crash on >landing. Because the only runways for takeoff and landing in 1947 may have been at Alamogordo, a town and air base, not out in some desert. >The >White Sands case was a controlled flight in White Sands airspace
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 06:02:12 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 09:31:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Redfern >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:05:12 EDT >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>>They didn't just target you. Jim Wilson of Popular Mechanics in >about 1996 also got hit with the Japanese bodies/hideous secret >experiments story of Roswell, complete with Fugo balloons >hybridized with Horten-type gliders. You wrote, "It certainly >can't be attributed to 'coincidence.' " (p. 131) You remember >saying that in your book? Yes, but my point is that PM had the ability to quickly get this story out in 1997, to a large audience. I didn't. >You keep assuming you're the only one to receive these stories, >like you're specially privileged. Of course I don't think I'm specially privileged. As anyone who knows me will be aware, I find the whole issue of egos and ufological self-importance to be the most ridiculous and highly amusing aspects of the subject. I am not saying there is anything privileged about receiving the material. I just find it odd that I was approached and not someone in a better position to publish the story, etc. >You also tacitly assume as a >hidden premise in all of your arguments against you being the >victim or target of a disinformation plot that this has to be a >major, hugely important (thus expensive) disinformation project >for it to be disinformation at all - because you say they are >"trying to hide the story of the millennium." No, I never said expensive. If it was disinformation, how expensive can it be to brief a few guys and sit in a restaurant with me to discuss the data? But I do think if that if it had been disinformation, then a lot of thought had to have gone in to it to ensure that 4 people all in their early to mid eighties (one in poor health and all 4 spread across the country) got their collective stories straight. >You were approached _before_ your 6-year hiatus in UFO books! >You were first approached with this Japanese Bodies Fugo-Horten >Roswell story in 1996. Yes but if it was complete disinformation, then this is illogical too, because when I was approached in 1996, I had never had a book published - my first book wasn't published until 17 months after the 1996 meeting in the UK! So here's the situation: the first approach was made to me when I had never even had a book published (on UFOs or on any subject); and by the time that I had finished the US-based interviews in 2004, it was 5 years after my last UFO book was published. Popular Mechanics had the ability to get the story out in 1997. I had no chance to do so in 1996 because I wasn't even published then. And I still stand by what I said: with little involvement in Ufology from 1999 onwards, a disinformation team would be idiotic to set-up someone who was largely out the subject and was not writing or publishing on UFOs. Plus, not only was I not writing on UFOs, but it went much further than that. As Andy Roberts and Dave Clarke can confirm, I sold _all_ my UK Government document collection to them (including a lot of US FOIA files - the rest were bought by other people); I sold my entire Mufon magazine collection to Andy, along with my Flying Saucer Review collection, my Bufora Journal collection, IUR, etc. The rest of my collection was sold to other people. This is the main point: I wasn't just not doing UFO research, I had off-loaded all of my research files, collections, etc., to other people. I was _really_ out of the subject. It was only Roswell that drew me back in. >There were probably a number of UFO-related researchers and >media types who were approached and rejected the approaches, >which we simply don't know about, perhaps all throughout the >1996 to 2001 period and even earlier (before 1996) and later >(after 2001) so this argument proves nothing. Name them or the above-sentence proves nothing either beyond speculation. >This simply is an empty argument to use to suggest the >impossibility of you and your book being disinformation. I have never suggested disinfo is an impossibility. Ever. I have _always_ said on-List that I have never ruled this out. Look at my final answer to Bob Durant's questions in a previous post. As I pointed out in the book, Levine (the UK informant) was not the innocent that he claimed to be. Salter and Barker and the Colonel _all_ worked on psych-war ops and disinformation schemes. Of course I realized the significance of this. Part of the problem, is that you don't know the background to the interviews, the nature of the interviews, the fact that I know these people at a social level too. Which is why I am aiming to self-publish a follow-up report detailing as much of the background and build up to all this as I can. >The rest of your arguments are like the craziest nitpicking excuses >as to why disinformation agents could not or would not do this >or that, including some kind of rule you made up on the spot >that says "No UFO book author will be used for disinformation if >they have not published a UFO book in more than 6 years." Like, >huh? Whaaaaaat???? You lost me with that one. Ok, if you are lost, I will try again to explain. If this is disinformation, and this was an operation that someone wanted to ensure got big coverage and was put here, there and everywhere (either within the UFO community or at a bigger level), I just do not see the logic of using someone who (a) had not had a UFO book published for half a decade; (b) who had sold their entire research file, book, magazine collection; and (c) whose only involvement in the subject at that stage was a few lectures per year. In fact, at the end of my 1999 book, Cosmic Crashes, I specifically wrote that I felt that my work was "now over" as it related to UK Government research. I was telling everyone I was out of it all. For all of the above reasons, I see no reason for me to be targeted. >>You've got to be kidding. The AF's Crash Dummy Theory brought >howls of laughter in the press briefing room when it was >announced in June 1997. If any thing undermined and cast >suspicion on the AF's Mogul Balloon Roswell Theory of 1994 it >was the ridiculous Crash Dummy nonsense. What I said - read carefully - was that both the Mogul and Dummy scenarios were still in place. They are. I said nothing about the Dummy story being accepted. I specifically said that the media accepted Mogul, which is true. Largely they did. By stating that both scenarios are still in place, however (which they are, regardless of whether or not they are believed), I mean that it seems illogical to me to introduce yet more theories and explanations. In fact, you have made my point for me: the media _was_ skeptical of the Dummy story. So why introduce another story that will make them even more suspicious? >For example, suppose there were deception ops groups in >different agencies coming up with different scenarios? Entirely possible - but with so many scenarios presented, it just does one thing: it puts a focus on Roswell. And if there was anything (even remotely) of significance to Roswell, putting yet more stories out only draws attention to Roswell. Now, if there was nothing of significance to Roswell and the plan was to stifle research into other areas by having Roswell dominate the subject, I would say that hasn't worked. I would certainly agree with anyone who has said that Roswell is a highly significant case, upon which of the current ETH-UFO scenario depends/relies. But it hasn't stifled research into Flying Triangles, abductions, Crop Circles, scientific analysis of data, etc. >And you assume there >is some such megasecret being kept. Can I assume that you are of the opinion then that - in literal terms - _nothing_ of any significance occurred at Roswell, beyond allowing the Intel world to recognize the way in which Roswell could be used as a tool of manipulation? >>>>See answer above, it sows "confusion" in the UFO community, >>>which has been entangled in controversy over Roswell, virtually >>>paralyzing its UFO research progress in other areas. Nonsense. Roswell is certainly the highest profiled UFO case and is probably has had the most words written about it than any other case. But to go so far as to say that research into Roswell has virtually paralyzed research elsewhere is nonsense. There is a wealth of research going on elsewhere into numerous topics perceived to be linked to the UFO subject. >Again you keep assuming the disinfo agents would be entrusted >with this supersecret "story of the millennium" when that would >overturn every rule of security need-to-know, as I argued above. It doesn't matter if they were entrusted with a super-secret or not. I stand by what I said: if there is a real Roswell secret that is being hidden from us, and the data fed to me is disinformation, then that only serves to focus more attention on
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:26:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 09:34:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - Fleming >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:38:38 -0700 >Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars <snip> >When evidence of liquid water emerged, seepage from the side of >a steep slope, Malin fell all over himself apologizing for the >findings! It was _liquid_ water that seemed so taboo, not ice. >Given press sensationalism over any indication of life >elsewhere, I suppose scientists can be forgiven for erring on >the side of caution. >Still, I detect a silent bias, something akin to a religion, >against even simple life forms. Many scientists would be >thrilled to find it yes, then they could come out of the closet. >Question remains: Why the closet? Anyone who doubts that an extreme bias against life on Mars pervades the planetary science community should read Barry DiGregorio's book, _Mars the Living Planet_. The book gives a detailed account of what happened to the Dr. Gil Levin, principal investigator for the Labeled Release experiment, for his refusal to accept the official conclusion that his LR experiment had detected an inorganic chemical reaction and not signs of life. This was not a genteel disagreement among scholars. Levin likened his experience to being treated like a "non-person" as were political dissidents in the Soviet Union. It would have been understandable if NASA really had erred on the side of caution, as you say. They could have just announced the fact that the LR results satisfied all of the previously agreed-upon criteria for life, and then added that they were unwilling to conclude on that basis that life had really been detected. They could have taken the reasonable position that additional experiments carried by _future_ Mars probes were needed to decide whether the Viking results were really indications of life or merely inorganic chemical reactions of the sort that were proposed. That certainly would be what they would have done if there were any truth to the old argument that NASA would "love" to find life on Mars because it would be good for their budget. The Viking results gave them a (literally) golden opportunity for a bigger budget for Mars exploration. But no Mars probe after Viking and up to the present time has carried any biology experiments. Instead of calling for further investigation, planetary scientists hastily cobbled together a hypothesis that Mars' surface is covered by superoxides that might cause the chemical reactions observed by the Viking LR experiment. The superoxides not only explain away the evidence of biological activity from the LR experiment, but also could act as a bleaching agent, preventing any organisms from living on the surface of Mars. So the superoxides offered a very appealing double whammy against life to those inclined to the "dead Mars" way of thinking: they allegedly mimic life in ways that fooled the LR experiment, while making it impossible for the real thing to exist on the martian surface. But there is little evidence for the existence of these superoxides on Mars, other than the Viking LR experiments that the superoxides were used to explain away in the first place. Their existence seems to be more a matter of faith. Gil Levin wrote a paper explaining his objections to the superoxide theory at: http://mars.spherix.com/spie2/Spie2001Oxides/Spie2001-oxides.htm Even if these oxides are as prevalent on Mars as NASA assumes, there is still a problem with the supposition that the oxides' bleaching action would be sufficient to prevent unsightly microbes from contaminating the martian rocks that JPL geologists are so fond of. In 2003, the results of a study of an extremely arid region in Chile called the Atacama Desert were ballyhooed as showing the validity of the superoxide theory: http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-life-03j.html Mars-Like Atacama Desert Could Explain Viking No Life Results "During field studies, the team analyzed Atacama's depleted Mars-like soils and found organic materials at such low levels and released at such high temperatures that Viking would not have been able to detect them, said McKay, who noted that the team did discover a non-biological oxidative substance that appears to have reacted with the organics - results that mimicked Viking's results." So, despite the lack of direct evidence of the superoxides on Mars, the Atacama study supposedly supported the plausibility of their existence and their wondrous life-preventing properties. But a subsequent study of Atacama soils found that bacteria could be cultured from soil at depths of only a 20 to 30 centimeters below the surface: http://wwwpaztcn.wr.usgs.gov/rsch_highlight/articles/200411.html One of the members of the second research team said of the first team: "The other researchers who had tested soil from the Atacama had looked for life only down to the depth of four inches. So one
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 06:45:37 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:37:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:54:26 EDT >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >You evaded all the questions and comments (based on Don's >originals) which you deleted from my posting! For example: >"The whole "atomic pile" experiment could have been carried out >on the ground." And no one is saying that things may have not been undertaken at a ground level. Arguably, some ground-based tests would have been undertaken. The fact that the sources talked about a flight-test using this rudimentary pile experiment does not rule out the probability of earlier ground tests. It's clear from what the Colonel said that his knowledge on this came from reading a file that detailed the historical data on the NM events, but not the pre-NM history of what went on before the flights, at least not to any great extent. >Your answer to the "atomic angle" was that >there was _none_ at Roswell. Correct. Again - there was no atomic angle to Roswell. >So instead of answering the >"atomic angle" as it applied to the supposed May 1947 White >Sands crash you acted like there was no "atomic angle" at all >to discuss! No I did not act like anything. And as I said it would be crazy to act like that because the data is all in the book. I answered Don's specific question, concisely and to the point: there was no atomic angle to Roswell. >If you weren't trying to be sly and evasive you would >have said to Don that he had the wrong date and location for the >"atomic pile" that was purportedly flown, and then addressed his >questions as corrected. Why the hell would I want to be sly? The atomic data is all in the book for people to see! It's not like I can magically hide it - or would even want to! I assumed that because Don was asking questions about the data in the book, that he had actually read the book, and would go back and re-read the relevant chapter and work it out for himself that the atomic case was a different one. I had no idea he was asking questions without having even read the book! >That's why I said this was a lawyer-like tactic - if the >question wasn't worded exactly correct then you took advantage >of the errors to answer and deny a different question, taking >advantage of Don's misunderstanding (doesn't matter what caused >his misunderstanding) to dodge and evade the "atomic angle" and >left Don and other readers in the dark or more confused. There was no "lawyer-like tactic"! This is really getting crazy. Don asked a specific question about the Roswell crash. I provided a specific answer about the Roswell crash. And - again - dodging or avoiding issues makes absoloutely no sense at all because it features prominently in the book! ><snip> >>>I>Where was there a runway or landing strip at White Sands in >1947? Was not in fact the only runways at Alamogordo Army Air >Field (the later renamed Holloman AFB)? This is an interesting question and one that is a big focus of my follow-up report. Fact is, however, I now have documents from October 16 1946 to February 1947 talking about preparations of what are termed in the files as "isolated" landing strips in NM, and also for the construction of landing strips off-ranges and off-military bases, but still in the NM desert in this time frame. Interestingly, one such scenario envisaged was to allow an aircraft with an atomic bomb on board the capability to land in the desert and away from a military installation or a town, in the event of an airborne emergency of some type. Of course, no one could predict where an atomic bomb-carrying bomber might crash if it went completely out of control; but the fact that as far back as 16 October 1946 there were plans in place to deal with airborne, atomic calamities and have other "isolated" landing strips in NM (some on range, some off-range but in areas of plenty of desert space), is significant in this question. What you won't know is that the book was handed over to the publisher around 18 months ago if I recall correctly; and since then I have continued digging into all of this. So it's not just data that has come through since publication of the book. >How was such an >outlandish "atomic pile" "device" (p. 106) to crash with >horrendous radiation contamination spewed everywhere in plain >sight of people at Alamogordo Field and in the town of >Alamogordo and somehow be kept secret? >Because the only runways for takeoff and landing in 1947 may >have been at Alamogordo, a town and air base, not out in some >desert. >"Approach" to what? Approach to a runway! Where were there >runways? See above re "isolated" runways in the NM desert: all of this is
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:56:37 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:39:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Friedman >From: John Auchettl - PRA Melbourne <praufo.nul> >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 15:00:08 +1000 (EST) >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 20:51:41 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 11:24:47 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>Also here is a quote from an item I just found in an efficiency >>Report about Corso from H.S. Craig, Chief Special Projects >>Staff, June 25, 1955 >>"Col. Philip J. Corso has been performing liaison duties with >>various member agencies of the Operations Coordinating Board and >>continues to prepare certain intelligence estimates which are >>part of the staff function of this organization." >Stan, >Did H.S. Craig, Chief Special Projects Staff, June 25, 1955 >addressed P.J. Corso as a Colonel? >What a COL? >How contemptible... obviously a CSPS prank, a hoax document. >Oh well, the killer noose may be in the '1954 efficiency report >or the 1953 or the 1952.... in his Officers Mess dining or >ablution account - lets take a squize shall we. >What fun. This was an Efficiency Report to the Adjutant General, Atten : AGPA-4 Dept.of the Army. Corso wasn't being addressed. He was referred to as Colonel.... perfectly proper to use the generic rank in this context. He was a Lt. Col. I don't understand the purpose of the question nor the tone.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 09:35:56 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:48:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Clark >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 06:02:12 -0700 >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:05:12 EDT >>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch Listfolk: >>The rest of your arguments are like the craziest nitpicking excuses >>as to why disinformation agents could not or would not do this >>or that, including some kind of rule you made up on the spot >>that says "No UFO book author will be used for disinformation if >>they have not published a UFO book in more than 6 years." Like, >>huh? Whaaaaaat???? You lost me with that one. >Ok, if you are lost, I will try again to explain. If this is >disinformation, and this was an operation that someone wanted to >ensure got big coverage and was put here, there and everywhere >(either within the UFO community or at a bigger level), I just >do not see the logic of using someone who (a) had not had a UFO >book published for half a decade; (b) who had sold their entire >research file, book, magazine collection; and (c) whose only >involvement in the subject at that stage was a few lectures per >year. I don't have a dog in this fight, as the saying goes, though I find the discussion, most of it surprisingly and happily civil, as fascinating as anything I've encountered in this field in many years. Maybe we're getting somewhere. We'll see. I hope so, anyway. From what I can see - I suspect others will agree - the claim that this is all some disinformation plot, while not impossible (anybody who's paying attention tends to get cynical enough to allow for the possibility of nearly any kind of official malfeasance), suffers rather glaringly from the problem that it explains too much. Anything and its opposite can be and is advanced to sustain the charge, to the point that one has a difficult time trying to imagine under what circumstances, short of actual wreckage and bodies, the charge could be falsified. Surely, if this is disinformation being spread by some very old people with time on their hands to spend to no obviously necessary or productive end, we ought to be able to figure that out as the investigation continues. More productively, we should focus our attention on a relatively simpler question: Is the story outlined in Redfern's very interesting book true or false? It strikes me as premature to cease inquiries (or to attack inquirers) by shouting "disinformation" - with multiple exclamation points yet - without something like specific evidence to that effect. Like any other hypothesis, disinformation finally has to be demonstrated, not simply stated. Which is not to say, of course, that Brad is certainly wrong. It's just that he hasn't so far documented his charge very compellingly to intelligent outside observers. >>>You've got to be kidding. The AF's Crash Dummy Theory brought >>howls of laughter in the press briefing room when it was >>announced in June 1997. If any thing undermined and cast >>suspicion on the AF's Mogul Balloon Roswell Theory of 1994 it >>was the ridiculous Crash Dummy nonsense. >What I said - read carefully - was that both the Mogul and Dummy >scenarios were still in place. They are. I said nothing about >the Dummy story being accepted. I specifically said that the >media accepted Mogul, which is true. Largely they did. Nick is correct. The silly crash-test-dummy story has faded into deserved obscurity. Brad rightly observes that the press laughed outright when the Air Force hauled the yarn out for public consumption on June 24, 1997. (Presumably the AF had grown lazy from the uncritical, even credulous, stenographic approach the press took in earlier decades to Blue Book pronouncements, however far-fetched.) But Mogul, sans the complication of body reports, has remained an immensely successful cover story, endorsed - on occasion or two at book length - even by no small number of ufologists. As, most recently, the February 24 ABC News UFO special has shown, when elite media mention Roswell,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: Canadian Connection To Roswell UFO Crash? - From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:39:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:50:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Canadian Connection To Roswell UFO Crash? - >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:08:56 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Roswell UFO Crash - A Canadian Connection? >While checking out the Horten Nurflugel page below that Greg >Boone brought to my attention, I noticed a few pictures of a >full size Ae. 37 Delta Jet that reminded me very much of the >Canadian Avro Arrow interceptor.> <snip> >I have stronger reasons to suspect that the rapid advance in >aircraft technology of the axis countries is partial due to >recovered crashed ET craft in both Italy and Germany before WWII >but that is another story. Also, we all know that Wernher von >Braun was the rocket expert that helped get U.S. astronauts to >walk on the Moon but fewer of us know that Walter Miethe (same >as Dr. Richard Miethe?) was an expert on flying discs which >could very well have been responsible for all unexplained post >WWII UFO sightings. According to Kevin McClure (and Michael >Schratt about Dr. Richard Miethe), >In 'Projekt UFO', Harbinson asserts that, of the 'rocket >scientists' involved in flying disc development "at the close >of the war, Walter Miethe went to the US with Wernher von >Braun, Dornberger, and hundreds of other members of the >Peenemunde rocket programme... Miethe, though initially working >under Wernher von Braun for the United States' first rocket >centre in the White Sands Proving Ground, New Mexico, joined >the A.V. Roe (AVRO-Canada) aircraft company in Malton, Ontario, >reportedly to continue work on disc-shaped aircraft, or flying >saucers just as Habermohl was thought to be doing with the >Russians." >There a history about man-made flying saucers that is still >largely unknown and shrouded in mystery that may not only >explain the Roswell UFO crash but all UFO sightings - and there >may even be a Canadian connection too! ;o) I have read all the previous arguments that basically regenerate the "Nazi UFO " theory in one form or another (Nazi's built them and flew Hitler to Antarctica or saucers are based on Nazi developed technology, etc). In these theories one assumes that (a) German technology, as develped by the Russian (or the USA) resulted in partially (or totally) circular craft that had lift and could be aerodynamically controlled at high speed and high altitude and this was done earlier than 1947 (b) German technology resulted in development of jet engines which were lightweight enough to be used on the supposed disc/circular/ semi-circular lifting bodies or craft and which could propel these devices to more than Mach 2 in the late spring or early summer of 1947 and that there were many more than just one of these flying around (recall Arnold's sighting... 9 "discs" and calculated speed about 1700 mph). (c) A more bizarre version of the theory is that the German scientists had a crashed ET disc and based their designs for shape and power sources and propulsion on that. I'll happily mail a buck to anyone who can prove both (a) and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: UFO Hunters - Warren From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:56:30 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:53:05 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Hunters - Warren >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:15:58 -0400 >Subject: UFO Hunters >The History Channel show, UFO Hunters, may be the best >documentary yet. >Greenewald and all the others who put it together are to be >congratulated. This is the first of 4 installments, according to >the historychannel.com web page. >Next is Aug 8, then Aug 22 then Aug 29. >"Let the investigation continue." Bruce, Et Al, I concur, bravo! Although I thought it was a little campy for everyone to state that they were "UFO Hunters," the content was key, and I didn't grimace once throughout the episode. I thought the MUFON Field Training segement was a good idea as well as refreshing to see... be interesting to monitor membership for the next few months to see if there's a bump.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:06:16 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 13:59:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:37:07 -0300 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:41:32 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>While I am happy to keep answering issues point by point it >>might be easier if you are able to examine the full detail of >>the reports closely. >I definitely am interested in doing this! >In addition to the DNA tests and results, I'd like to have more >information pertaining to the morphological features of 'the hair.' The book does not go into any real detail about the morphology of the hair. However, I have previously included, in some of my lectures, videoed microscope images of the hair with the following comment: "The blonde hair shaft with pronounced mosaic cuticle structure & optical transparency - medulla can be seen? - continuous? - Mongoloid indicative except for blonde colour? Indicative head hair - human head hairs usually exhibit fragmented or nil medulla." While we did not do a specific cross sectional examination it was very clear from the close-up, videoed microscope, traversing of its length that the hair shaft was round rather than oval to flat. The cylindrical nature made it difficult to prevent rolling in the field of view. I am no expert in the area, but in my research into human hair morphology I got the impression that there are tremendous variations, and thus uncertainty, in extrapolating too much from such characteristics in the absence of other identifying factors. Given this I would not want to speculate about interpretations of evidence for hybridization on the basis of morphological characteristics alone. There was little or no melanin in the hair shaft. The imaging does suggest a continuous medulla with a medullary index - if I'm calculating it correctly - ratio (of apparent medulla width to hair shaft diameter?) less than 1/3. You sound better informed on hair morphology than me, so I would be happy to hear of your thoughts on this once you see the imagery of the hair reproduced in my book. If time permits I may try to post imagery up on my web log.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Secrecy News -- 08/02/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 13:37:20 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 23:49:08 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/02/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 73 August 2, 2005 ** PENTAGON UPDATES POLICY ON LEAKS ** CDC ISSUES POLICY ON SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED INFO ** NAVY ISSUES POLICY ON HAZING PENTAGON UPDATES POLICY ON LEAKS The Department of Defense has updated and expanded its policy on investigating unauthorized disclosures of classified information. "Unauthorized disclosure of classified information to the public reduces the effectiveness of DoD management; damages intelligence and operational capabilities; and lessens the Department of Defense's ability to protect critical information, technologies, and programs," the new Pentagon policy directive states. "It is DoD policy that known or suspected instances of unauthorized public disclosure of classified information shall be reported promptly and investigated to decide the nature and circumstances of the disclosure, the extent of damage to national security, and the corrective and disciplinary action to be taken." The directive assigns principal responsibility for dealing with leaks to the Under Secretary of Defense (Intelligence). Attached to the directive is a Department of Justice Media Leak Questionnaire which includes "eleven standard questions relating to unauthorized disclosures of classified information to the media" that must be answered. Among the questions are: Was the information properly classified? Is the classified information disclosed accurate? A copy of the new directive was obtained by Secrecy News. See "Unauthorized Disclosure of Classified Information to the Public," DoD Directive 5210.50, signed by Acting Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon England, July 22, 2005: http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/d5210_50.pdf CDC ISSUES POLICY ON SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED INFO Throughout the government, agencies and officials are becoming more selective and self-conscious about what information they allow into the public domain. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is the latest agency to articulate a policy on so-called Sensitive But Unclassified (SBU) information that is to be withheld from disclosure. The new CDC policy itemizes and helpfully defines no less than 27 information control categories that fall under the catch-all rubric of SBU. Many of them are little known or previously unheard of, such as Contractor Access Restricted Information (CARI). The CDC properly notes that simply "marking information SBU does not automatically qualify it for a public release exemption." On the other hand, "the absence of the SBU or other related marking does not necessarily mean the information should be publicly released." The resultant policy follows logically if severely: "Therefore, all information should be reviewed and approved prior to its public release." A copy of the new CDC policy was obtained by Secrecy News. See "Sensitive But Unclassified Information," Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, July 22, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/cdc-sbu.pdf NAVY ISSUES POLICY ON HAZING "Hazing is contrary to our Core Values of Honor, Courage and Commitment," according to a new U.S. Navy Instruction. Hazing means, among other things: "playing abusive or ridiculous tricks; threatening or offering violence or bodily harm to another; striking; branding; taping; tattooing; shaving; greasing; painting; requiring excessive physical exercise beyond what is required to meet standards; 'pinning'; 'tacking on'; 'blood wings'; or forcing or requiring the consumption of food, alcohol, drugs, or any other substance," the Instruction defines. "It is Department of the Navy policy that hazing is prohibited and will not be tolerated." See "Department of the Navy Policy on Hazing," Secretary of the Navy Instruction 1610.2A, 15 July 2005: http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/navy/secnavinst/1610_2a.pdf "As the military struggles during wartime to fill its ranks, commanders appear to be more sensitive than ever to accusations of abuse," according to an article on hazing in the New York Times on July 26. _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 2 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 16:17:25 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 23:52:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Sparks Let me anticipate and forestall a perfectly pointless argument about runways since it was very late last night when I posted this and this came out wrong. So let me correct part of my post on the issue of runways. There was apparently a runway and a dry lake bed at Condron Field at White Sands used for emergency landings, as well as runways at Alamogordo Field. My point is thus as follows: The Colonel seems to be suggesting two things at the same time as to where and how the alleged "atomic pile... device" in the "weird" aircraft, the "powered lifting body, a glider aircraft" crashed at White Sands (pp. 106-8). In other words double-talk. On the one hand he wants us to believe or imagine that all this crashing occurred at some "site" in the "desert" at White Sands as if at some remote part of the missile "range." But on the other hand the "weird aircraft" has to take off and land on a runway somewhere, and that is suggested by the Colonel saying it was coming "in to land at White Sands" when it flipped over "on its approach" (to the runway) and crashed. This must then have been at Condron Field, White Sands. Where else could it have taken off and landed? At Alamogordo?? The crash with "screaming" survivors who were already "handicapped" Japanese having "severe disabilities" and "deformities," plus dead bodies, has to be "contained." (pp. 107-8) Contained from what? It's already on a sensitive military base. Clearly the "atomic pile... device" (p. 106) had crashed and spewed radioactivity all around Condron Field, which had to be "contained." After all the whole purpose of the flight test was purportedly, according to the Colonel, "so you have the crew put on board to see how hot - radioactive - this all gets and how they are affected and how the aircraft is contaminated or not." (p. 106) So the military's successor to the Manhattan project, AFSWP, has to "contain the site... the area is cordoned and it takes a couple of days to get everything cleaned up." Which again suggests a radioactive cleanup, with the military successor to the Manhattan project supposedly doing the "clean up." Except for one major problem: The civilian successor to the Manhattan project which got all its unassembled bomb parts and assets, including radiation cleanup gear and protective suits, was the AEC, not AFSWP. How was such an outlandish "atomic pile... device" (p. 106) to crash with horrendous radiation contamination spewed everywhere in plain sight of people at Condron Field and in the town of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:53:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:11:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - White >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:26:22 -0500 >Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars <snip> >But no Mars probe after Viking and up to the present time has >carried any biology experiments. Far as I'm concerned, every NASA executive who made a conscious decision to omit biology experiments has committed a crime against the taxpayers, and should be in prison. What a tragedy there aren't enough people who feel that way to demand a hearing at which they would be required to explain their decision, with penalties a possibility. At least that would be an opportunity to force future Mars probes to carry biology experiments.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: UFO Hunters - Burns From: Chris Burns <Thurstonoreggae.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 16:58:19 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:15:23 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Hunters - Burns >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:15:58 -0400 >Subject: UFO Hunters >The History Channel show, UFO Hunters, may be the best >documentary yet. >Greenewald and all the others who put it together are to be >congratulated. This is the first of 4 installments, according to >the historychannel.com web page. >Next is Aug 8, then Aug 22 then Aug 29. >"Let the investigation continue." List,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: Canadian Connection To Roswell UFO Crash? - From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:31:43 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:17:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Canadian Connection To Roswell UFO Crash? - >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 10:39:25 -0400 >Subject: Re: Canadian Connection To Roswell UFO Crash?> >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:08:56 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Roswell UFO Crash - A Canadian Connection? >>While checking out the Horten Nurflugel page below that Greg >>Boone brought to my attention, I noticed a few pictures of a >>full size Ae. 37 Delta Jet that reminded me very much of the >>Canadian Avro Arrow interceptor.> <snip> >>I have stronger reasons to suspect that the rapid advance in >>aircraft technology of the axis countries is partial due to >>recovered crashed ET craft in both Italy and Germany before WWII >>but that is another story. Also, we all know that Wernher von >>Braun was the rocket expert that helped get U.S. astronauts to >>walk on the Moon but fewer of us know that Walter Miethe (same >>as Dr. Richard Miethe?) was an expert on flying discs which >>could very well have been responsible for all unexplained post >>WWII UFO sightings. According to Kevin McClure (and Michael >>Schratt about Dr. Richard Miethe), >>In 'Projekt UFO', Harbinson asserts that, of the 'rocket >>scientists' involved in flying disc development "at the close >>of the war, Walter Miethe went to the US with Wernher von >>Braun, Dornberger, and hundreds of other members of the >>Peenemunde rocket programme... Miethe, though initially working >>under Wernher von Braun for the United States' first rocket >>centre in the White Sands Proving Ground, New Mexico, joined >>the A.V. Roe (AVRO-Canada) aircraft company in Malton, Ontario, >>reportedly to continue work on disc-shaped aircraft, or flying >>saucers just as Habermohl was thought to be doing with the >>Russians." >>There a history about man-made flying saucers that is still >>largely unknown and shrouded in mystery that may not only >>explain the Roswell UFO crash but all UFO sightings - and there >>may even be a Canadian connection too! ;o) >I have read all the previous arguments that basically regenerate >the "Nazi UFO" theory in one form or another (Nazi's built them >and flew Hitler to Antarctica or saucers are based on Nazi >developed technology, etc). In these theories one assumes that Hi Bruce! Although the Roswell UFO crash and the German saucer technology go back the same number of decades, I am surprised how quickly both have become deeply mythologized (by certain persons who would have us not know the truth?) during this short period of time. The version that these Nazi-built saucers flew Hitler to Antarctica is so silly that I suspect it was proposed and promoted to ridicule those interested in learning more about secret man made flying saucers since WWII. >(a) German technology, as develped by the Russian (or the USA) >resulted in partially (or totally) circular craft that had lift >and could be aerodynamically controlled at high speed and high >altitude and this was done earlier than 1947 We do know of unclassified disc and flying wing shaped craft that were designed, built and successfully flown prior to 1947. As for high speed and high altitude craft, the Germans were getting ready to launch the first man into space a decade and a half before the Soviet Union and the United State did it - according to the late astronaut Gordon Cooper in his book 'Leap of Faith' who once chased fleets of these (man made?) flying saucers in 1951 that by then were regularly flying over the base in Germany he was stationed at! >(b) German technology resulted in development of jet engines >which were lightweight enough to be used on the supposed >disc/circular/ semi-circular lifting bodies or craft and which >could propel these devices to more than Mach 2 in the late >spring or early summer of 1947 and that there were many more >than just one of these flying around (recall Arnold's >sighting... 9 "discs" and calculated speed about 1700 mph). Actually, drawings based on what Arnold actually saw look more like flying wings rather than discs - not unlike certain Horten designed aircraft. If America's secret nuclear flying saucer as revealed by 'Popular Mechanics' is fact, then one would expect smaller fast and high flying disc/wing shaped craft to have been test flown in our skies back when Arnold had his sighting. It is interesting that one unexplained picture you have seems to show what looks very much like the escape pod of this secret nuclear flying saucer as depicted in 'Popular Mechanics'. >(c) A more bizarre version of the theory is that the German >scientists had a crashed ET disc and based their designs for >shape and power sources and propulsion on that. Although some researchers such as Nick Redfern suggest that the Roswell UFO crash had a very much down to Earth explanation, if this thinking is extrapolated it may even explain all UFO sightings since WWII. Since UFO sightings since WWII may have been reported as possible ET craft as part of a deliberate cover for secret man made flying saucers being test flown at that time, we must not forget that there were many UFO sightings prior to the mid-1940s, including in ancient times, that can still best be understood as ET craft. The alleged UFO crash in Italy during the Mussolini years and the UFO crash(s) in Germany during the Hilter years prior to WWII may have contributed in part to the Axis' rapid advance in technology. >I'll happily mail a buck to anyone who can prove both (a) and >(b) above. >Of course, if someone manages to prove (c) or something similar >(e.g., USA got a crashed ET disc earlier than 1947), then this >person can make a lot more than a buck by writing a book. Short of the governments of the world coming clean on their Black Budget research, we can only make educated guesses much like Nick Redfern does in his book 'Body Snatchers in the Desert: The Horrible Truth at the Heart of the Roswell Story'. Unless the author includes "Harry Potter" in the title, the little royality money he/she can expect to make after putting in the time and effort to write this important book would not be worth the trouble. If someone does have the proof for both (a) and (b) above and would like to make two quick bucks, I would be
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:27:42 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:20:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 09:35:56 -0500 >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 06:02:12 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:05:12 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>>The rest of your arguments are like the craziest nitpicking excuses >>>as to why disinformation agents could not or would not do this >>>or that, including some kind of rule you made up on the spot >>>that says "No UFO book author will be used for disinformation if >>>they have not published a UFO book in more than 6 years." Like, >>>huh? Whaaaaaat???? You lost me with that one. >>Ok, if you are lost, I will try again to explain. If this is >>disinformation, and this was an operation that someone wanted to >>ensure got big coverage and was put here, there and everywhere >>(either within the UFO community or at a bigger level), I just >>do not see the logic of using someone who (a) had not had a UFO >>book published for half a decade; (b) who had sold their entire >>research file, book, magazine collection; and (c) whose only >>involvement in the subject at that stage was a few lectures per >>year. >I don't have a dog in this fight, as the saying goes, though I >find the discussion, most of it surprisingly and happily civil, >as fascinating as anything I've encountered in this field in >many years. Maybe we're getting somewhere. We'll see. I hope so, >anyway. Yes let's hope so. >From what I can see - I suspect others will agree - the claim >that this is all some disinformation plot, while not impossible >(anybody who's paying attention tends to get cynical enough to >allow for the possibility of nearly any kind of official >malfeasance), suffers rather glaringly from the problem that it >explains too much. Anything and its opposite can be and is >advanced to sustain the charge, to the point that one has a >difficult time trying to imagine under what circumstances, short >of actual wreckage and bodies, the charge could be falsified. <snip> >It strikes me as premature to cease inquiries (or to attack >inquirers) by shouting "disinformation" - with multiple >exclamation points yet - without something like specific >evidence to that effect. Like any other hypothesis, >disinformation finally has to be demonstrated, not simply >stated. Well now you are arguing with Redfern and his "sources" not me, because _they_ are the ones screaming "disinformation" so the real question then becomes only how much is "disinformation" and which parts, not whether there is any disinformation at all. Redfern's book itself asserts that almost all of his "sources" are government disinformation/psych war agents, and he has stated on UpDates that all but the UK guy are in direct communication with each (see also the book p. 100), which screams "collusion" with multiple exclamation points!!! Here straight from Redfern's book (pp. 82-84) is a very cogent description of the UFO disinformation operation that when it comes from me you say is an "attack [on] inquirers" or a plea to "cease inquiries," and suffers from unfalsifiability because it "explains too much" and encompasses "anything and its opposite," but when it comes from Redfern it is suddenly respectable and does not get criticized with me in the same breath so to speak. Could you simply do me a favor and imagine that when I am discussing disinfo ops that I am merely elaborating on Redfern's thesis of a "top-secret program of disinformation"? Try to think of Redfern instead of me in those instances. :) From Redfern's Aug. 9, 1996, interview with the mysterious Mr. "Levine" (apparently a pseudonym), where "Levine" recounts what a Mr. T of the British MoD Defence Intelligence Staff (possibly DI55 ??) told him in early Oct 1989 as paraphrased by Redfern and minus what I consider extraneous references to the NSA and the P&SS since I am only going to quote the part that most closely parallels my thesis: --- REDFERN BOOK pp. 82-84: "... in early 1981... counterintelligence operatives... had been working for some months... in the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI)... on a top-secret program of disinformation that involved disseminating fabricated crashed UFO accounts and documentation into the public UFO research community. "... the 1980 release of the book _The Roswell Incident_ had convinced those 'in the know' at AFOSI... [to] conduct[] disinformation operations... So a remarkable operation would be put into place.... "In an ingenious move, the... AFOSI... team decided that via a series of official-looking but fabricated papers they would reveal to certain 'meddlesome' players, researchers, and authors in the UFO field the 'truth' behind the Roswell affair and the apparent establishment in the wake of the [Roswell] crash of a supersecret group to take control of the situation. But in reality nothing of the sort ever happened. "Instead, these were outright lies that originated in the fertile imaginations of AFOSI counterintelligence personnel and that, as AFOSI well knew, easily would be spotted by keen-eyed UFO investigators. T. stated that these tales centered on three key issues: 1) accounts of crashed UFOs and the recovery of alien bodies; 2) stories concerning underground bases in New Mexico that had been taken over by hostile alien forces; and 3) tales of 'alien-induced animal mutilations.' "Of course, when the faked material was shown for what it really was, this would also cast doubt on the genuine material pertaining to Roswell that had been uncovered by UFO researchers--albeit, due to the passage of time, at a fragmented and distorted level. [MY NOTE: I'm not endorsing a particular set of "genuine" Roswell claims here, only the general concept] "In other words, if the truth could not be contained, it would be both confused and, to a limited extent, disseminated. "... a massive file of documents (amounting to around five hundred [500] pages of material) on UFO crashes, alien autopsies, and secret UFO studies undertaken by the intelligence community of the United States--all of them fabricated and containing a careful blend of fact and fiction and... all designed to be surreptitiously 'leaked' to certain civilian UFO investigators...." --- Note well that the purpose of the UFO disinformation was to cause "confusion" among UFO researchers not necessarily the general public (pp. 84, 89) by "flooding the UFO community with a mass of confusing, contradictory and outright bogus stories" (p. 89), thus "muddying the waters" (p. 173). Mogul and Crash Dummies and Japanese-Bodies-on-a-Fugo- Horten- Atomic-Pile certainly seems like a "mass of confusing, contradictory and outright bogus stories," and thus consistent with this government disinformation scenario. Thus contrary to Redfern's latest postings, it is irrelevant whether he was going to publish UFO books to widely disseminate material to the public. The disinfo was targeted at the "UFO research community" (p. 83) not to the general public. If the UFO community was the target (and keep in mind there may have been multiple targets at different times for different purposes) then publication of books and articles to the general public might help that objective, but would not necessarily be a requirement for the disinfo op aimed at UFO researchers. Thus it is irrelevant whether Redfern published any UFO books lately or at all. When Jaime Shandera received the first MJ-12 documents in the mail in Dec 1984 he had not published any UFO books at all! His cohort Bill Moore had not co-authored a UFO book in over 4 years, and had not published his own UFO book at all. Thus the question is whether Redfern was seen by AFOSI as one of the " 'meddlesome' players, researchers, and authors in the UFO field" (p. 83) who could be exploited in a disinfo op. Also the question is whether AFOSI files were even up to date on Redfern's activities and contacts, or accurate. He constantly assumes perfect knowledge by the disinfo agents, so anything that is imperfect (such as "contradictory" disinfo stories) is evidence to deny that he is now being used as a conduit for the disinfo op. Yet his own scenario calls for AFOSI disinfo ops to use a "mass of confusing, contradictory and outright bogus stories" (p. 83) that are intended to eventually blow up and be exposed as "faked" (p. 83) . If the stories do blow up then he says they were no good, they should not have blown up, and must not be disinformation. And he cannot be excluded from being the target of this same disinfo operation just on his say-so, or because he now argues in postings that the disinfo stories were not terribly believable or were contradictory. As he wrote in the book, the AFOSI disinfo stories and documents were designed to self- destruct, that they would be "easily... spotted by keen-eyed UFO investigators" and that "the faked material [would be] shown for what it really was" (p. 83). >Which is not to say, of course, that Brad is certainly wrong. >It's just that he hasn't so far documented his charge very >compellingly to intelligent outside observers. Then the same goes for Redfern too, because you cannot disassociate his nearly identical disinfo ops scenario on pp. 82-84 from mine in terms of plausibility and documentation (where the documentation can cover identical points in both our scenarios). And I wasn't aware that I was trying to present a case, since I explained that "It would take a book to detail it all," on a disinformation program on UFO's, given that there are no smoking-gun genuine government documents to prove the existence of such an operation or operations (such as a memo from the Director of AFOSI Counterintelligence to the Colonel: "You are hereby ordered to disinform Nick Redfern with our newly developed Japanese Body-Fugo Balloon-Horten Glider- Nuclear Aircraft-Unit 731 catchall Roswell deception" which would certainly deserve multiple exclamation points I should think). It is unreasonable to expect or demand such smoking-gun evidence in view of the extra secrecy attached to covert operations, especially since 9-11, and in view of the total exemption of CIA and other "operational files" from even being searched under FOIA. By its very nature, without genuine smoking-gun documents or genuine confessions from the disinfo conspirators that aren't suspect of just being more disinformation, the only way to demonstrate the existence of disinfo UFO-oriented ops is by careful rigorous inference from the history and policy motivations that can be documented from the telltale traces they leave behind. This requires a lot of detailed analysis of government history covering decades and running to many hundreds of pages. Policy traces that we want to look for are those that do not have to spill the entire secrets but do reveal enough of what is going on to those who look for the right signs. For an example of only one of many systematic methodologies I have developed over the years (please note that Redfern does not discuss investigative methodologies): TOP SECRET policies are mistakenly thought by government security officials to be readily covered up because TS documents are kept under much tighter security than lower level documents, TS documents are much fewer in number and the military has always had rigid TS Control Registries over every TS document and its copies. A relatively small number of TS documents can simply be destroyed seemingly to leave nothing behind. But what security officers do not realize (or perhaps some do and they know there is nothing they can do about it) is that TS policies leak out to people at SECRET and sometimes lower levels and sometimes get reported in SECRET documents because the policy is not recognized to be TS level by the SECRET-level authors. Also TS policies usually cannot be fully implemented at TS level, a lot of activity may have to occur at SECRET and CONFIDENTIAL and even Unclassified levels (e.g., technicians and janitors who are not told what they are working on). Probably the security officials who do realize the leakage of TS into S rationalize that SECRET is still pretty secure from disclosure. But I have seen some declassified SECRET official histories where the historian made a deliberate effort to seek out as much as could possibly be gathered about what must have been TS projects, even though perhaps any one given bit of info was not a clearly TS-marked item per se. It's a fuzzy line between the classification levels when one uses oral interview type data, for instance, because a human being's brain has no TS classification markings, one has to rely on the official's memory and understanding of what was classified at what level.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet - From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 19:28:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:22:34 -0400 Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet - >From: NASANews.nul >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:20:21 -0400 (EDT) >Subject: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet >Dolores Beasley >Headquarters, Washington July 29, 2005 >(Phone: 202/358-1753) >Jane Platt >Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. >(Phone: 818/354-0880) >RELEASE: 05-209 >NASA SCIENTISTS DISCOVER TENTH PLANET Hello List hope you are well one and all, Nibiru, The Moon, The Dinosaurs? Well List what are your thoughts, what should we expect is NIBIRU coming or isn't it ? The planet follows an highly elliptical path don't you agree, otherwise, would it not have been discovered long ago ? How or when was it determined that Nyberg would make its first appearance in 2003, anybody know the answer to that one, or this happens to be quite the coincidence that also when it was first photographed in 2003 ? http://www.webpronews.com/news/ebusinessnews/wpn-45- 20050801HackersForcePlanetXOuting.html Hackers Force Planet X Outing ? "Michael Brown of the California Institute of Technology had known of Planet X since he first photographed it 2003" ?? The news should fit in nicely with reports out of several places regarding Sumerian and Mayan dealings with the Anunaki, the inhabitants of the little known 12th planet Nibiru. If you follow late night radio, then you'll be aware that the Anunnaki may in fact destroy the earth in 2012, when the Mayan calendar comes to an abrupt halt. *grin* http://xfacts.com/x.htm ANCIENT NIBIRU CONFIRMED THROUGH SCIENCE The Orpheous Theory is one of the latest theories released which explains that a "rogue planet" collided with our primitive earth, creating our moon. Almost exactly what the Sumerian describe 6,000 yrs ago... http://www.exitmundi.nl/Planet-X.htm Planet X is the supposedly eleventh planet of our solar system. It should be as big as many Earths, dwarfing it perhaps even hundreds of times. Some people think X isn't even a real planet, but a `brown dwarf': a massive ball of dust and gas that almost succeeded in becoming a star. Planet X has something no other planet has: a huge orbit. Its orbit around the Sun lasts 3,600 years. Most of the time, it is far off, invisible to the eye. But every 3,600 years, the lost planet returns. Once here, it accelerates, and swings close past the Sun, disrupting everything it encounters. And that's exactly what Planet X is about to do, they say. Right now, it should be somewhere in the outer regions of the solar system, still invisible to our telescopes. But in the spring of 2003, it will suddenly make its appearance. It will be some event. Within months, Planet X will reach the inner regions of the solar system, disturbing the eclipses of the planets and bombarding us with comets. In May, it will pass Earth, missing it only at a few hairs' lengths. Or, well: hitting us at full force, perhaps. http://www.aliensinthenews.com/sherry/x-sedna-toe.htm In the Bible Codes, Planet X is found in Ezekiel 41:11. The Codes reveal that Planet X is the former home of Lucifer. Planet X is just an alias for the real name, Planet Rahab. In Isaiah 14:9 it says in regards to the Antichrist, "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations." Isaiah is talking about the entrance of the Antichrist onto the world scene. Will his entrance be marked with the entrance of Planet X at around the same time? They appear to be related. http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa021102a.htm Where Is Nibiru and When Will It Arrive? It takes Nibiru 3,600 years to complete one orbital journey, and it was last in this vicinity around 160 B.C.E. As you can imagine, the gravitational effects of a sizable planet moving close to the inner solar system, as it is claimed for Nibiru, could wreak havoc on the orbits of other planets, disrupt the asteroid belt and spell big trouble for planet Earth. A Bit of History Then around 300,000 years or so ago, the Anunnaki decided to create a race of workers by genetically manipulating the primates on the planet. The result was homo sapiens - us. Eventually, rulership of the Earth was handed over to humans and the Anunnaki left, at least for the time being. Sitchin ties all this - and much more - into the stories of the first books of the Bible and the histories of other ancient cultures, especially Egyptian. (Here's a good time chart of the alleged events.) It's an astonishing story, to say the least. Most historians, anthropologists and archeologists consider it all Sumerian myth, of course. But Sitchin's work has created a diehard cadre of believers and researchers who take the story at face value. And some of them, whose ideas are getting widespread attention thanks to the Internet, contend that the return of Nibiru is
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: UFO Hunters - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:25:50 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:26:47 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Hunters - Fleming >From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:56:30 -0700 >Subject: Re: UFO Hunters >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:15:58 -0400 >>Subject: UFO Hunters >>The History Channel show, UFO Hunters, may be the best >>documentary yet. >>Greenewald and all the others who put it together are to be >>congratulated. This is the first of 4 installments, according to >>the historychannel.com web page. >>Next is Aug 8, then Aug 22 then Aug 29. >>"Let the investigation continue." >Bruce, Et Al, >I concur, bravo! Although I thought it was a little campy for >everyone to state that they were "UFO Hunters," the content was >key, and I didn't grimace once throughout the episode. I thought the program was very good overall, but the "UFO hunters" theme was a little overdone, especially when that label was applied to Frank Drake of SETI fame. I'm sure Drake would take exception to being called a UFO hunter. I thought that was kind of a low point of the program, but it was immediately followed by what seemed to me one of the high points: the comments of the astrophysicist from Harvard on the differences between SETI and "UFO hunting." He strongly implied that UFO research is inherently more of a scientific enterprise than SETI and then just flat out stated that he thought the UFO hunters are more likely to "get there
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet - From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 22:28:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:37:51 -0400 Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet - >From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:28 PM >Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet >>From: NASANews.nul >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:20:21 -0400 (EDT) >>Subject: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet >>Dolores Beasley >>Headquarters, Washington July 29, 2005 >>(Phone: 202/358-1753) >>Jane Platt >>Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. >>(Phone: 818/354-0880) >>RELEASE: 05-209 >>NASA SCIENTISTS DISCOVER TENTH PLANET ><snip> >The planet follows an highly elliptical path don't you agree, otherwise, >would it not have been discovered long ago ? Dear List, However, my jibber-jabber ran away with me and got the better of me or so it would seem. Now that I did find some useful info., should these timelines make any difference as to what the apparent outcome could be or not be ? http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/30/science/30planet.html Its 560-year elliptical orbit brings it as close as 3.3 billion miles. http://xfacts.com/x5.html The Mesopotamian and biblical sources present strong evidence that the orbital period of the 12th Planet is 3,600 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_Planet In a recently published book, titled 2012: Appointment With Marduk, Turkish writer/researcher Burak Eldem presents a new theory, suggesting a 3,661 years orbital period for the planet and claiming a "return date" in the year 2012 AD. Do you see anything as far as some correlating dates to convert with 560-years and the 3,600-3,661 years by Maya Long Count standard that should be mentioned ?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: Ice Lake Found on Mars - Kimball From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 00:15:41 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:39:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found on Mars - Kimball >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:53:03 -0400 >Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:26:22 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars <snip> >>But no Mars probe after Viking and up to the present time has >>carried any biology experiments. >Far as I'm concerned, every NASA executive who made a conscious >decision to omit biology experiments has committed a crime >against the taxpayers, and should be in prison. What a tragedy >there aren't enough people who feel that way to demand a hearing >at which they would be required to explain their decision, with >penalties a possibility. Eleanor:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 23:33:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:54:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Clark >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:27:42 EDT >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 09:35:56 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 06:02:12 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:05:12 EDT >>>>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From what I can see - I suspect others will agree - the claim >>that this is all some disinformation plot, while not impossible >>(anybody who's paying attention tends to get cynical enough to >>allow for the possibility of nearly any kind of official >>malfeasance), suffers rather glaringly from the problem that it >>explains too much. Anything and its opposite can be and is >>advanced to sustain the charge, to the point that one has a >>difficult time trying to imagine under what circumstances, short >>of actual wreckage and bodies, the charge could be falsified. >Well now you are arguing with Redfern and his "sources" not me, >because _they_ are the ones screaming "disinformation" so the >real question then becomes only how much is "disinformation" and >which parts, not whether there is any disinformation at all. >Redfern's book itself asserts that almost all of his "sources" >are government disinformation/psych war agents, and he has >stated on UpDates that all but the UK guy are in direct >communication with each (see also the book p. 100), which >screams "collusion" with multiple exclamation points!!! Brad, Your rejoinder is longer than my fairly mild observations warranted, in my opinion. I don't think anybody - I certainly don't - disputes that disinformation is out there. I went out of my way to state that I am not flat-out rejecting your ideas - who knows to speak anything with certainty in the Roswell wilderness of mirrors (an allusion you will appreciate)? Though it is my judgment that your hypothesis is not an automatic and obvious one in the particular circumstances. On the other hand, it can be fairly remarked that nothing about the Roswell controversy is either automatic or obvious. Let's just see how this plays out. I think all of us can agree that we're at a particularly fascinating moment. Maybe one way or another we'll be able, via the current debate, to move the Roswell dime, long stuck, forward.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:23:39 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:09:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Sparks >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:00:20 -1000 >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:49:06 EDT >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:21:13 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:34:09 EDT >>>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 07:01:01 -1000 >>>>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>>>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:04:15 EDT >>>>>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>>>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>>>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:05:24 -1000 >>>>>>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC <snip> >>>>>>>http://www.cia.gov/csi/kent_csi/docs/v03i4a05p_0003.htm >>>>>>>Certainly, Cutler was clear about the role played by the "NSC >>>>>>>Operations Coordinating Board." Cutler viewed it as integral >>>>>>>part of the NSC system and part of the NSC itself. Notice that Cutler nowhere says that the OCB was an integral part of the NSC "throughout its entire history 1953-1961" as you claimed in a previous posting. Cutler does not put dates like "1953-1961" on his organizational titles, his account is very generalized. He's talking about the idealized functioning of OCB and the NSC at the end not the detailed history up to that point. Cutler does not mention Jackson's reports in 1954 and 1956 critical of the OCB's powerlessness and Eisenhower's 1957 Executive Order rectifying that by merging the OCB into the NSC. Cutler's failure to mention the profound shortcomings of the NSC and OCB under his tenure are not surprising since it would reflect badly on his own performance, something you have trouble understanding. Since Cutler omits to mention the Jackson reports and the President's Executive Order merging OCB into the NSC, Cutler's historical remarks cannot possibly qualify as a valid detailed history. Your "revisionist history" trashes the Eisenhower Executive Order as a needless exercise because you allege, contrary to all credible evidence, that the OCB was doing just fine and was already part of the NSC "functionally." What a joke! Talk about absurd euphemisms, the OCB was NOT "functioning" and that's why it had to be fixed. You twist this history to its polar opposite of the truth just to rescue your phony UFO "whistleblower" (actually leaker and fabricator) Corso who repeatedly lied to say he had been an illustrious "NSC Member" or on the highly impressive "NSC Staff" but usually forgot to even mention the OCB. Contrary to your desperate "revisionist" inventions, the OCB did not "evolve" into a closer and closer relationship to the NSC, but remained in the same static ineffectual position of pleading for "voluntary cooperation" from government departments in 1954 when Jackson complained that this system was not working (and that the OCB needed to be made a part of the NSC), as it did in 1956 when Jackson continued to complain that OCB was not working and needed to made a part of the NSC. Same in 1954 as in 1956, the OCB was not working because it was _not_ part of the NSC and thus did not have the NSC's authority to enforce compliance with directives, as Jackson reported to the President. You just flatly evade these facts. Under OCB's founding charter, Eisenhower's Executive Order 10483, the OCB had no independent power or authority to order any agency to comply with its wishes or the NSC's directives. The OCB could only "advise the agencies concerned" and "initiate... proposals." You cannot produce a shred of evidence that, prior to its merger with the NSC, the OCB could order departments and agencies to act and could enforce its own orders. To the contrary there is indisputable proof from Jackson's reports, and those of other agencies and consultants, who found OCB could not enforce compliance and that the system was not working because OCB was independent of the NSC and not a part of the NSC. Those experts on the scene in the 50's found that the OCB's separate-from-NSC status was what needed to be changed, and it was changed - after Corso left. <snip> >>>>>>Cutler viewed the OCB in his retrospective history as he left it >>>>>>and the NSC in 1958 when he resigned as Special Assistant to the >>>>>>President for National Security. >>>>>>By 1958 the OCB had been merged into the NSC whereas before July >>>>>>1, 1957, the OCB had functioned as an "independent agency" like >>>>>>the CIA was an "independent agency." CIA employees do not get to >>>>>>put "NSC Staff member" on their resume's!!! <snip> >>>>The CIA was also an 'independent agency' created with the NSC in >>>>the same law in 1947 (National Security Act) to "coordinate >>>>efforts between different government agencies" for the NSC and >>>>it directly reported to the NSC. Yet the CIA was never a part of >>>>the NSC. CIA employees do not get to lie on their resume's and >>>>say "NSC Staff member"! >>>Your 'revised' history of the CIA is wrong. Here is what the >>>1947 National Security Act says about the chief functions of the >>>CIA: >>Your history is "wrong" and you are misleading readers of this >>list with the current 2005 version of the National Security Act >>rather than the 1947 version that was relevant to the time period >>in the 50's under discussion. The CIA "functionally" reported to >>the NSC and functionally "coordinated" matters just like the >>OCB did, yet CIA employees and managers did not get to lie on >>their resume's like Corso and claim they worked on the prestigious >>gh-level "NSC Staff." <snip> >There are a number of independent sources supporting Corso's >contention of having served as a staff member to the NSC. First >there's the FBI report on Corso. In a Nov 2, 1965 letter to Mr >Deloach (Hoover's Special Assistant) by M.A. Jones, describes >Corso's background as follows: "Operations Coordinating Board >(OCB), National Security Council." You have consistenly refused >to acknowledge the significance of this FBI report.... That is a load of crap once again! I have repeatedly pointed out the mistaken use of the Cutler, FBI and Congressional job references for Corso as worthless for establishing NSC's and OCB's legal structure and relationship in the OCB's early days before its 1957 merger with the NSC. Those are not legal authorities but erroneous labels. Since the 60's those looking back on the old OCB referred to it in idealized memory as what it was at the end when it was finally part of the NSC and finally functioning to some degree. The Kennedys thought the whole Eisenhower NSC system was cumbersome and worthless so JFK abolished most of it, including especially the OCB, by Executive Order in early 1961. The FBI staff were not experts in NSC history and did not generate this erroneous job label from its own investigation of Corso but simply got the label from Gen. Trudeau who was not an expert on NSC history either (see Feb. 11, 1965, memo). >Second there is the Senate Select Committee on POWs that refers >to Corso as having served as a staff member to the NSC. This is >what it says: "Lt. Col. Phillip Corso (USA, Ret.), of the >National Security Council staff under President Eisenhower." >While you and others contend that the Senate Committee simply >accepted the bio handed to them by Corso The gross inaccuracy of the Senate Committee process of listing witnesses in its publications is shown by its misspelling of Corso's first name as "Phillip" with 2 L's instead of "Philip" with one L. >Finally, we have Robert Cutler description of the OCB over the >years 1953-58 in which it served on it as Eisenhower's Special >Advisor where he clearly stated how it was (first functionally >and then by EO) part of the NSC. This is what Cutler said: >"Under President Eisenhower, the normal procedure for operating >the policy-making aspects of the NSC mechanism has involved >three main steps. ... Finally, the President approves, modifies, >or rejects the Council's recommendations, transmits those >policies which he approves to the departments and agencies >responsible for planning their execution, and-as a rule where >international affairs are concerned-requests the NSC Operations >Coordinating Board to assist these departments and agencies in >coordinating their respective planning for action under the >approved policies.... During the period 1953-1958, with which I >am familiar, the great bulk of national security policy >determinations were made by the President through the operations >of the NSC mechanism just described." >http://www.cia.gov/csi/kent_csi/docs/v03i4a05p_0003.htm >The first thing to note is Cutler's description of the "NSC >Operations Coordinating Board". Yet Corso himself never described his service as with the "NSC Operations Coordinating Board" or "OCB/NSC" which would have been half the truth (the OCB part) at least instead of no truth (the NSC part). Why is that? If Cutler is right and it applies to the time when Corso was there, then Corso should have been saying he had served on the ""NSC Operations Coordinating Board." Corso's military records also should have said "NSC Operations Coordinating Board" - but they don't, they say only "Operations Coordinating Board." >Earlier in this thread you claim >that Cutler was giving a retrospective history. That is a >fallacious argument since Cutler clearly is describing the NSC >mechanism from 1953-58 If Cutler was truly describing this NSC mechanism from throughout the "1953-58" period he served there, then why does Cutler make no mention of Corso's Psychological Strategy Board (PSB) which the OCB replaced on Sept 2, 1953? Here was almost a year where the OCB did not even exist and its predecessor the PSB, which Corso worked on before the OCB, is nowhere mentioned by Cutler! If we were to adopt your bogus reasoning that Cutler's history remarks on the NSC are to be treated as complete and comprehensive then that would mean that Corso's PSB never existed because Cutler in his supposedly "complete" treatment makes no mention of the PSB, the OCB's predecessor. Clearly then Cutler did not intend to include the national security structure in its early days of his tenure at the NSC around 1953 and the early 50's, since he "forgot" about the OCB's predecessor the PSB and he forgot about the years when OCB was not a part of the NSC. >and clearly identifies the OCB role in >that. That period includes Corso's service and clearly points >out that the OCB was informally part of the NSC prior to its >formal incorporation in 1957. Sorry but Cutler is describing the end-state of the NSC with the OCB merged within it, long after Corso was gone from the OCB. And Cutler's generalized remarks written long after the fact do not trump Jackson's on-the-scene reports in 1954 and 1956-7 when the OCB's failures and lack of NSC authority were so glaringly obvious and a major problem that required that OCB be made a part of the NSC. As Jackson found in 1954 and 1956 and as he reported to the President, there was no "informal" situation of OCB being part of the NSC, the reality was that OCB "informally" and "formally" had no NSC clout behind it because it was "independent" from the NSC. This OCB status was the same in 1954 as it was in 1956. "Informally" OCB should have been able to say to the Defense Dept for example, "We are the OCB and we are informally part of the NSC. We direct you to comply with these coordination plans." But in fact the OCB said no such thing and was told it had no power to order anything and only had jawboning rights to beg for "voluntary cooperation." And that is why Jackson in 1956 prepared the plan for Eisenhower to to put OCB within the NSC for the first time, which he did by Executive Order 10700 in 1957. The military especially would understand such an empty chain of command where supposedly superior commands have no actual authority to issue orders to allegedly subordinate agencies. Corso as a military officer would have known that the OCB was an empty paper-tiger org, without teeth, without NSC authority to order anything. >>So the CIA does "report" to the NSC and "coordinate" matters for >>the NSC in the relevant 50's time frame, just like the OCB where >>Corso worked in 1954-6. Yet CIA staff do not get to lie like Corso >>on their resume's and claim they worked for the higher-ranking >>impressive-sounding NSC. >Again, comparing the CIA and the NCB is like comparing apples >and oranges....
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 00:45:25 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:16:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 16:17:25 EDT >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >The Colonel seems to be suggesting two things >On the one hand >he wants us to believe or imagine that all this >crashing occurred at some "site" in the "desert" at White Sands >as if at some remote part of the missile "range." >But on the other hand the "weird aircraft" has to take off and >land on a runway somewhere, and that is suggested by the Colonel >saying it was coming "in to land at White Sands" when it flipped >over "on its approach" (to the runway) and crashed. This must >then have been at Condron Field, White Sands. Where else could >it have taken off and landed? At Alamogordo?? All good questions. First, as per my previous email, I have uncovered documents from October 16 1946 to February 3 1947 talking about plans for the construction of "isolated" landing strips in New Mexico and in one case _near_ White Sands, and under their jurisdiction, but not strictly _on_ White Sands. Various offices at White Sands are _all_ on the distribution list of these documents. That these were planned in part to cope with a scenario involving an atomic-bomb-laden aircraft that might have to make an emergency landing away from main areas of population and military bases - beceause, specifically, of the atomic angle - is intriguing. This is not a case of me defending the Colonel if he got the data wrong, but bear several things in mind: The document he read (and from where he acquired _all_ of his data) was read by him 36 years ago; and he freely admitted - and I cited him in the book - stating that there were certain parts of the file he simply could not recall or even saw. His exact words: "...the report I read referred to a technical appendix that went into greater detail about the analysis of the crash, why it happened, what went wrong and such. That I never saw. And I will admit there are parts I don't recall after thirty years." Also, it was not an intelligence document written at the time of the New Mexico events. Rather - see page 113 - second paragraph down, to quote the Colonel: "...this is a file that was a look- back based on personal memory with most of the original files having been destroyed way back when to hide all this." This "personal memory/look-back" comment seems to imply that at some point years later, someone in the Intelligence community was trying to determine what occurred in NM in 1947, but had found that the files were gone, and systematically began tracking down people who may have been there, to interview them for their memories. Why? We don't know. But it may have been that to enable them to deceive the Soviets with elaborate cover stories about crashed UFOs in the 60s (when the Colonel was involved), that someone wanted the original raw data to work with too. But it was gone, destroyed (as all the book sources in the US asserted), hence follow-up interviews years later. He also talks about entries in the file that were "never really confirmed" such as another May 1947 crash with a balloon, and the possibility of survivors (albeit fatally injured ones) at the site of the bodies recovered from the device that specifically led to the Roswell story. Therefore, the Colonel was recalling (and admitting that he was recalling) from a file he read more than thirty years ago, that was itself based upon the memories of other people who were there, but who were interviewed later for the specific purpose of putting this file together. Is it possible that - collectively - this can account for discrepancies such as White Sands and your later observation re the Armed Forces Special Weapons Project and the AEC dates? I think so. Doubtless some will cry disinfo even louder now. But the Colonel was clear on the fact that there were parts he could not recall, that the file was not written in 1947, and that it may even have been years later that the interviews (with the sources whose testimony led to the production of the report) were undertaken. Now before pro-ET Roswell people attack me on this, remember that there are several crash sites posited for the Roswell UFO (not the ranch debris - the rumors of a craft and crew, I mean), by various witnesses. Does that mean - regardless of what the Roswell material was itself - that they are lying about the location of the site itself? Or can it be that sixty years on, they are in error due to memory? I'd say the latter. And when people are recalling from memory to the best of their ability (and some of that memory may be flawed when it's based on 30 to 40 year recollections, that are in turn based upon the recollections of others for the purposes of constructing the files), errors may creep in. Does it mean an entire scenario is wrong if an old man in his eighties makes several errors in his recollections of a file that he read decades ago? But if this was disinformation - rather than an 80-plus year old man trying to recall memories from nearly 40 years ago - I suspect he would have had a straighter story and every aspect would be neat and tidy. Remember too that re. Barker, the Colonel, Salter and the Black Widow: all are in their eighties; two are pushing 90. They are human beings; human beings make errors. Human beings recall things and get things confused with other things. Would a crack disinformation team do that? My view is no. I hope I have half the recall of some of these people when (if!) I am 85. >The crash with "screaming" survivors who were already >"handicapped" Japanese having "severe disabilities" and >"deformities," plus dead bodies, has to be "contained." (pp. >107-8) >Contained from what? It's already on a sensitive military base. My interpretation of contained would be secured. Contain the site, secure the site is the same thing. From what? I don't think it's a case of containing the site "from" anything. It's containing the site to prepare for recovery because this is a highly classified project. > >Clearly the "atomic pile... device" (p. 106) had crashed and >spewed radioactivity all around Condron Field, which had to be >"contained." Actually, no one _anywhere_ makes _any_ comment about this device having "spewed" anything radioactive. My reading is that it was the site that was contained, not a radioactive leak that was contained. And here is why I say that: Read carefully pages 107 (last 2 parapgraphs and 1st paragraph on page 108). The Colonel talked about the aircraft having hit the ground. It flipped over, it split. There were deaths. He vividly recalled those parts. Then, on page 108, he states that with respect to the crew: "No one wants to go near them - the radiation, the screams, the way they look with their deformities..." Read that carefully. We know that - according to the Colonel - something of an atomic-pile nature was involved in this flight, so we know there was a radiation-based angle to this. And certainly if there was a possibility that this thing had "leaked" (in simplistic terminology), then no one would want to approach it and so they _would_ keep away - as he claimed. But, keeping away because you fear a potential radioactive hazard doesn't mean that one was actually found when checks were ultimately made. In fact,_nowhere_ in the book does the Colonel - or anyon else - state that the pile was damaged or that radiation was "leaked." He just says that the people kept back. _Anyone_ would keep back in a situation that they feared involved a leak of radiation. Particularly if at that time of the crash (and perhaps for a number of hours after) the issue of whether or not the atomic pile had "burst", as you put it, or was exposed, or if shielding issues were unknown, were considered to be key factors. And if it _had_ burst and spewed radioactivity everywhere, I think it is that - more than anything else - that the Colonel _would_ have remembered. That is your error: you assume that because it crashed that the pile had been destroyed and that radioactivity had to have been spewed. As he made no reference to spewed radioactivity - and this would surely have been memorable above all else - I think we can assume that, thankfully, the pile was undamaged. >How was such an outlandish "atomic pile... device" (p. 106) to >crash with horrendous radiation contamination spewed everywhere >in plain sight of people at Condron Field and in the town of >White Sands and somehow be kept secret? My focus is now on these "isolated" air-strip documents of 46-47 that I strongly believe answer this. It will _all_ be in the new report. >How could there not be hundreds of White Sands base personnel >contaminated and possibly killed by the radiation from this >burst "atomic pile"? Because no one ever said it burst. In your mind, the crash resulted in a "burst atomic pile." No one in the book says that. Period. Containing a crash site that _might_ potentially be radioactive specifically because of an atomic pile-based experiment does not mean that it ultimately _was_ - at least not in terms of radiation wildly "spewing" here and there. There is also another important issue and that is the way in which we interpret the term "crash." Now, if the aircraft had simply crashed headlong into the ground or has spun out of control at a great height, then of course the aircraft would have been pulverized and the pile, etc., would most certainly have exposed. But that is not what happened. He made it clear that the aircraft actually _landed_, but then skidded, and flipped. I agree that this is bad enough, but a _landing_, followed by a skid, followed by a flip, may not be so severe as to cause
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:33:37 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 08:22:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Redfern >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:27:42 EDT >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>Redfern's book itself asserts that almost all of his "sources" >are government disinformation/psych war agents, and he has >stated on UpDates that all but the UK guy are in direct >communication with each (see also the book p. 100), which >screams "collusion" with multiple exclamation points!!! Correct, they _do_ all know each other. The reason behind what brought them all together is intriguing (that doesn't feature in the book at all) and I'll get that all together before I do the new report. A number of Listers already know the full story behind what brought them together and how. But for 3 of them - Barker, Salter, and the Colonel - to admit to having engaged in disinformation ops in the past seems an unlikely way of presenting themselves if the intent is to spread more disinformation! If they _were_ spreading disinformation to me (rather than coming clean finally after _previously_ spreading disinformation), arguably the _last_ thing they would want to do is to tell me that they had worked in spreading disinformation previously, as that would inevitably raise suspicions. As per earlier posts, my interpretation is that their previous positions in the 50s and 60s in disinfo ops provided them a unique look at this bizarre world, and that now they are laying their cards on the table of what occurred decades ago and their experiences and recollections. >From Redfern's Aug. 9, 1996, interview with the mysterious Mr. >"Levine" (apparently a pseudonym), where "Levine" recounts what >a Mr. T of the British MoD Defence Intelligence Staff (possibly >DI55 ??) told him in early Oct 1989. > Yes a pseudonym. To clarify, and as I have mentioned on-List before, my original manuscript includes none of this "Mr. T" and "Mr. D" etc., etc., alias stuff. This was strictly changes insisted upon by Simon & Schuster's legal people. >Thus contrary to Redfern's latest postings, it is irrelevant >whether he was going to publish UFO books to widely disseminate >material to the public. The disinfo was targeted at the "UFO >research community" (p. 83) not to the general public. But again, why target someone who was all but retired from that community? >When Jaime Shandera received the first MJ-12 documents in the >mail in Dec 1984 he had not published any UFO books at all! His >cohort Bill Moore had not co-authored a UFO book in over 4 >years, and had not published his own UFO book at all. Surely you jest, re the Moore-Shandera comparison? Moore and Shandera, in 1984, were still _deeply_ involved in UFO research and having all sorts of on-going clandestine meets, publishing self-published reports on Roswell, writing papers for the Mufon Symposiums on a regular basis from around 81 to 85. That they weren't writing books doesn't matter because they were _still_ deep into it all with their contacts and still publishing material for the UFO community. Post late 1999, all I did in the UK for Graham Birdsall's UFO Magazine, for example, were book reviews and in 2001 a "tourist" type article I made on a trip to Roswell! I forget why now, but that article made someone in UK ufology - I forget who too! - incredibly angry. That was it. I was hardly in deep discussion with the shadowy world of Intel! That's the difference with me, post-1999: I wasn't doing the equivalent of Moore-Shandera. In fact, the exact opposite. I was doing solely freelance writing for magazines on non-UFO topics, including animal-based magazines on such varied and earth- shattering topics as how zoos feed baby monkeys, and alternative health treatments for arthritic dogs (all absolutely true!). >Thus the question is whether Redfern was seen by AFOSI as one of >the " 'meddlesome' players, researchers, and authors in the UFO >field" (p. 83) who could be exploited in a disinfo op. I guess I _could_ have been considered meddlesome and ripe for disinfo when I had never been book-published in 1996, or after I was out of the subject post-1999. But I come back to what I said: it would have been classic stupidity to use someone like me back then and precisely in the period when my UFO research, writing and contact with colleagues was at its absolute lowest. >Also the question is whether AFOSI files were even up to date on >Redfern's activities and contacts, or accurate.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:49:31 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:01:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - Hatch >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:26:22 -0500 >Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:38:38 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars ><snip> >>When evidence of liquid water emerged, seepage from the side of >>a steep slope, Malin fell all over himself apologizing for the >>findings! It was _liquid_ water that seemed so taboo, not ice. >>Given press sensationalism over any indication of life >>elsewhere, I suppose scientists can be forgiven for erring on >>the side of caution. >>Still, I detect a silent bias, something akin to a religion, >>against even simple life forms. Many scientists would be >>thrilled to find it yes, then they could come out of the closet. >>Question remains: Why the closet? >Anyone who doubts that an extreme bias against life on Mars >pervades the planetary science community should read Barry >DiGregorio's book, _Mars the Living Planet_. The book gives a >detailed account of what happened to the Dr. Gil Levin, >principal investigator for the Labeled Release experiment, for >his refusal to accept the official conclusion that his LR >experiment had detected an inorganic chemical reaction and not >signs of life. This was not a genteel disagreement among >scholars. Levin likened his experience to being treated like a >"non-person" as were political dissidents in the Soviet Union. >It would have been understandable if NASA really had erred on >the side of caution, as you say. They could have just announced >the fact that the LR results satisfied all of the previously >agreed-upon criteria for life, and then added that they were >unwilling to conclude on that basis that life had really been >detected. They could have taken the reasonable position that >additional experiments carried by _future_ Mars probes were >needed to decide whether the Viking results were really >indications of life or merely inorganic chemical reactions of >the sort that were proposed. That certainly would be what they >would have done if there were any truth to the old argument that >NASA would "love" to find life on Mars because it would be good >for their budget. The Viking results gave them a (literally) >golden opportunity for a bigger budget for Mars exploration. <snip> Thanks Lan, for the added information, much of which I didn't know about. <snip> >But there is little evidence for the existence of these superoxides on Mars, other than the Viking LR experiments that the superoxides were used to explain away in the first place. Their existence seems to be more a matter of faith. >Gil Levin wrote a paper explaining his objections to the >superoxide theory at: >http://mars.spherix.com/spie2/Spie2001Oxides/Spie2001-oxides.htm <snip> >In 2003, the results of a study of an extremely arid region in >Chile called the Atacama Desert were ballyhooed as showing the >validity of the superoxide theory: >http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-life-03j.html >Mars-Like Atacama Desert Could Explain Viking No Life Results <snip> >"The other researchers who had tested soil from the Atacama had >looked for life only down to the depth of four inches. So one >rule, Quade quipped, is, 'Don't just scratch the surface.'" >When it comes to life on Mars, scratching the surface is what >NASA did with the Viking landers 25 years ago, and they've been >unwilling to do even that ever since then. Now, with liquid water all but a foregone conclusion, I wonder how deeply anyone or anything will dig.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: UFO Hunters - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:11:24 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:24:54 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Hunters - Hatch >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:25:50 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Hunters >>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:56:30 -0700 >>Subject: Re: UFO Hunters >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:15:58 -0400 >>>Subject: UFO Hunters >>>The History Channel show, UFO Hunters, may be the best >>>documentary yet. >>>Greenewald and all the others who put it together are to be >>>congratulated. This is the first of 4 installments, according to >>>the historychannel.com web page. >>>Next is Aug 8, then Aug 22 then Aug 29. > >>>"Let the investigation continue." <snip> >..the comments of the astrophysicist from Harvard on the >differences between SETI and "UFO hunting." >He strongly implied that UFO research is inherently more of a >scientific enterprise than SETI and then just flat out stated >that he thought the UFO hunters are more likely to "get there >first." >It's amazing that a Harvard astrophysicist would own up to an >opinion like that on TV without having his face blacked out and >his voice disguised! Hi Lan: That's surprising. I missed the show. Did anyone get the name of the Harvard Astrophysicist? He wouldn't be the first to say things along those lines of course, Peter Sturrock is an Astrophysicist at Stanford.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Plane - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:45:15 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:30:00 -0400 Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Plane - Hatch >From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 19:28:27 -0500 >Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet >>From: NASANews.nul >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:20:21 -0400 (EDT) >>Subject: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet >>Dolores Beasley Headquarters, Washington July 29, 2005 <snip> >>NASA SCIENTISTS DISCOVER TENTH PLANET >Hello List hope you are well one and all, Nibiru, The Moon, >The Dinosaurs? >Well List what are your thoughts, what should we expect is >NIBIRU coming or isn't it? Hello John. In a word, no. 'Planet' 2003 UB313 would be a very poor choice for Nibiru. Its orbital period is yet to be worked out, but is something like hundreds of years instead of thousands. UB313 is now 3 times further out than Pluto. Scientists estimate a surface temperature of 30 Kelvins or minus 405 degrees Fahrenheit, far colder than needed to not only liquefy air (oxygen, nitrogen etc.) but to freeze it solid. I'm sure any Nibiruans would find this highly distressing. At its closest approach to Earth's orbit, believed to be some 280 years from now, it will still be about 38 astronomical units from the Sun, i.e. 38 times as far from the Sun as the Earth is on average. None of this will bother the followers of Zechariah Sitchin much
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: UFO Hunters - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:50:43 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:32:10 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Hunters - Friedman >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:25:50 -0500 >Subject: Re: UFO Hunters >>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:56:30 -0700 >>Subject: Re: UFO Hunters >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:15:58 -0400 >>>Subject: UFO Hunters >>>The History Channel show, UFO Hunters, may be the best >>>documentary yet. >>>Greenewald and all the others who put it together are to be >>>congratulated. This is the first of 4 installments, according to >>>the historychannel.com web page. >>>Next is Aug 8, then Aug 22 then Aug 29. >>>"Let the investigation continue." >>Bruce, Et Al, >>I concur, bravo! Although I thought it was a little campy for >>everyone to state that they were "UFO Hunters," the content was >>key, and I didn't grimace once throughout the episode. >I thought the program was very good overall, but the "UFO >hunters" theme was a little overdone, especially when that label >was applied to Frank Drake of SETI fame. I'm sure Drake would >take exception to being called a UFO hunter. >I thought that was kind of a low point of the program, but it >was immediately followed by what seemed to me one of the high >points: the comments of the astrophysicist from Harvard on the >differences between SETI and "UFO hunting." >He strongly implied that UFO research is inherently more of a >scientific enterprise than SETI and then just flat out stated >that he thought the UFO hunters are more likely to "get there >first." >It's amazing that a Harvard astrophysicist would own up to an >opinion like that on TV without having his face blacked out and >his voice disguised!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: UFO Hunters - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 08:09:10 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 09:37:00 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Hunters - Friedman >From: Chris Burns <Thurstonoreggae.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 16:58:19 EDT >Subject: Re: UFO Hunters >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:15:58 -0400 >>Subject: UFO Hunters >>The History Channel show, UFO Hunters, may be the best >>documentary yet. >>Greenewald and all the others who put it together are to be >>congratulated. This is the first of 4 installments, according to >>the historychannel.com web page. >>Next is Aug 8, then Aug 22 then Aug 29. >>"Let the investigation continue." >List, >It was great to see Ted Phillips interviewed. First class >researcher all the way. Ted Phillips was featured in my 1979, 93 Minute Documentary "UFOs ARE Real" which also featured Dr. Bruce Maccabee, Dr. James Harder, Dr. Richard Haines,Dr. George Mitchell (he helped Marjorie Fish), Jesse Marcel, Marjorie Fish, Betty Hill, Travis Walton, Mike Rogers, helicopter pilot Larry Coyne, myself, etc. VHS copies are available from me at: POB 958 Houlton ME 04730-0958 USA Only $15US.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: UFO Hunters - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:16:06 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:34:33 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Hunters - Maccabee >rom: Chris Burns <Thurstonoreggae.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 16:58:19 EDT >Subject: Re: UFO Hunters >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 00:15:58 -0400 >>Subject: UFO Hunters >>The History Channel show, UFO Hunters, may be the best >>documentary yet.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Plane - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:18:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:44:26 -0400 Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Plane - Shell >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:45:15 -0700 >Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet <snip> >None of this will bother the followers of Zechariah Sitchin much >of course. The most interesting thing about Sitchin to me is that archeologists who have specialized in the Middle East don't know who he is. His "translations" of ancient texts are suspect, to say the least. Reminds me of the man, I can't call his name to mind at the moment, who wrote all of those lengthy books about Lemuria,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Filer's Files #32 - 2005 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 07:27:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:00:09 -0400 Subject: Filer's Files #32 - 2005 Filer's Files #32 - 2005 George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International August 2, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com Cylinders Are Back This week's files cover: Space Walk, Tenth planet found in our Solar System, President Bush wants intelligent design taught in schools. Solar flares on the sun could bring hurricanes. UFOs were seen over Arizona, California, Florida, Louisiana, New Hampshire, New Mexico, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, and Virginia. Many sightings were also reported in Argentina, Australia, Bangladesh, Canada, Mexico, and the United Kingdom. The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world and in space. Many people claim it is impossible for UFOs to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep an open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate each week. I personally chased a UFO over England while in the Air Force and know something strange is in our skies. Huge cylinder shaped UFOs are being reported around the world. Space Walk Repairs ShuttleDiscovery Thanks to NASA on August 3, 2005, Astronaut Steve Robinson successfully removed both pieces of ceramic gap filler protruding from shuttle Discovery. Using with forceps and a makeshift hacksaw, Steve rides a robotic arm toward the shuttle's belly for the unprecedented task of eliminating a potential source of dangerous overheating during the shuttle's re-entry. Likely our alien friends will be very interested. Tenth planet found in Solar System NASA has announced the discovery of the "tenth" planet of the Solar system, that is one and half times the size of Pluto. Planetary scientist Dr. Mike Brown of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, California, whose research is partly funded by NASA, announced the discovery of a planet larger than Pluto. But Critics point out that US space agency has claimed many times before to have discovered the "tenth" planet, or Planet X, of our system, only to late reveal that the so called planets were nothing but large insignificant space debris. "NASA's real discovery is the debris falling out of Discovery," said an astronomer on the condition of anonymity. "Instead, they are trying to portray space debris as planets to take the heat away from them." The "planet" is a typical member of the Kuiper belt, but its sheer size in relation to the nine known planets means that it can only be classified as a planet, Brown said. Currently about 97 astronomical units from the Sun (one astronomical unit is the distance between the Sun and Earth), the planet becomes the farthest-known object in the solar system, and the third brightest of the Kuiper belt objects. NASA made a similar claim in 2004 when they announced the discovery of the tenth planet "Sedna." Later it was relegated to the status of a planetoid.http://unspun.mithuro.com/content/view/331/47/ President wants intelligent design taught WASHINGTON (Aug. 2) - President Bush said Monday he believes schools should discuss "intelligent design" alongside evolution when teaching students about the creation of life. During a round-table interview with reporters from five Texas newspapers, Bush declined to go into detail on his personal views of the origin of life. But he said students should learn about both theories, Knight Ridder Newspapers reported. "I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought," Bush said. "You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas, the answer is yes." The theory of intelligent design says life on earth is too complex to have developed through evolution, implying that a higher power must have had a hand in creation. Editor's Note: Most Scientists reject the theory of intelligent design although a few key scientists claim the development of humans on Earth is still unexplained. Evolution claims humans evolved from primordial soup and gradually evolved through thousands of different species to eventually become human. It is likely that President Bush is aware that the earth has been visited by extraterrestrials. Most people are unaware of the complexity of even the simplest cells. Dr. Francis Crick won the Nobel Prize for helping to discover the structure of DNA, the master molecule of life. He now believes that the 'origin of life' was from space. I was doing some reading recently and came across some surprising statements from Dr. Crick, made more remarkable still given his professional achievements. I think there is a prejudice among scientists regarding current evolutionary theories. Many of them have spent their careers considering the theory to be scientific fact and are loath to let that go. Their need to cling to that theory at all costs smacks more of faith than science. Besides the evidence that there was but a single genetic code, there is also the issue of so-called "simple" cell complexity. Dr. Crick wanted to determine the probability that even a single molecule of DNA could come into existence by chance. The probability for transition from inanimate to animate would be ten to the 40,000th power. Mathematically speaking, anything above ten to the 50th power is considered statistically impossible, because the sum total of all the electrons in the universe is only ten to the fifty-second power. The Bible asserts that the Elohim said: "Let us fashion Adam in our image and after our likeness." Scientific teams have determined we have DNA with 30,000+ genes designed to create us. Strangely there are 223 genes that do not have the required predecessors on the genomic evolutionary tree indicating the creation of humans very different from other animals. Arizona Fast Changing Colored Lights SCOTTSDALE =96 On July 4, 2005, ten witnesses spotted six UFOs from 9:15 to 10 PM. One of three witnesses stated, "Again on July 28, between 9:30 -10:30 PM, there were only two lights in the East Valley area that were flying up and down very fast and changing color similar to the UFOs on July 4th". All the UFOs changed colors from red, blue, to green with no particular shape. We tried to video tape them without success. They disappeared heading east towards the reservation. Nothing we have ever seen moves as quickly from side to side, up and down stopping still, crossing over in patterns as well as going so low over the tree tops they almost become level with the tree tops. Thanks to Brian Vike TUCSON -- On July 24, 2005, around 3:20 AM, a faint light blue light was seen. There was one dim blue light that came in and out of the clouds and one that glowed bright, now being two UFOs. They were traveling about the same speed as jet aircraft but they had no flashing lights. The same objects were seen the following night. Thanks to Brian Vike California Dull Glowing Orange Sphere CORONA =96 The witness was leaving to meet up with some friends on July 15, 2005, at the local pool hall around 11:30 PM, when I saw what I thought was a slow flying private plane or helicopter, but it was moving way too slow to be either one. I saw a dull glowing orange sphere, pulsating sporadically flying west. He ran to get his girlfriend who also saw the object hovering slowly that started to zigzag to the south then almost immediately back to its original position. He states, "I definitely knew this was no airplane or helicopter. I ran back inside to get binoculars and it was very blurry so I started focusing in on it, and as soon as I did focus, the UFO just disappeared. Thanks to Brian Vike www.hbccufo.com MODESTO =96 R. David Anderson writes, "These pictures were taken on July 23, 2005, between 9:30 and 10 PM, and show a helicopter flying low over my house with only one bright white light located in the front." Choppers normally display more lights than this, usually several red and white flashing strobe lights. What is mysterious about this picture is that there are other lights present alongside the helicopter. In the first picture there is a light that seems to be moving toward the left side. This shows up as a white streak of light in the image. In the second photo, this streak of light has moved slightly forward and is at a different angle in relation to the helicopter's light. Then, in the second picture, another smaller light appears to the right of the helicopter's light. I have determined from these photos that there was one or more UFO's alongside of the helicopter as it went above my yard. Thanks to R. David Anderson Florida bright orange light WEEKI-WACHEE =96 Seven witnesses were on a fishing trip in the Gulf of Mexico on July 3, 2005, when they saw a bright orange light just above the water at 2:48 AM. The object tilted, stayed there for about a minute, and then slowly went horizontal. The light looked like it was spinning and was almost alive with color. It was on the starboard side when seven of us saw the object as it appeared in an instant in the dark night sky. The light was a very bright beautiful orange that was not an oil rig, space shuttle, aircraft or vessel since we know what they look like out there at night. I reached for my camera but the battery was dead, even though it was brand new. They had been in the camera for a couple hours and the camera worked fine until we saw the light. Even the lights on the boat dimmed before the object blinked out. I'm still beside myself about this sighting and have felt different. I just want to know what this was? Thanks to MUFON Case Management System http://www.mufon.com/ Louisiana strange long light opens RIVER RIDGE -- It is really chance that I saw this. I was walking my dog on July 12, 2005, at 12:11 AM, when I looked up and saw a long light to the left of the Sagittarius Constellation which was 35 degrees high in the sky. I saw some type of strange light effect like a plastic zip-loc sandwich bag with an opening as the bag hung vertically of a thin line of transparent plastic. There was a translucent white opening that I could see stars through. It was a straight line widening thing with whiteness to it but it was easier to see through the middle than the edges. Inside it there was a line from end to end but it wasn't straight. It curved a little toward the top line of the light. The line was as thick as the other edges. There was a long horizontal light that got wider in the middle, reached its maximum brightness (a little brighter than a cloud passing over a city at night) then started fading away to nothing as it started closing and it was gone. It was one tenth as wide as the whole length and was translucent. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com North Carolina Sony and Kodak images DAVIDSON COUNTY =96 Alan Caviness writes, "Annual UFO operations continue to be monitored by independent field investigators in central North Carolina. Certain sites remain UFO-active on a yearly cycle with certain months each year seeing increased activity. To date, the team of field investigators has generated over 100 UFO photographs out of approximately 10,000. On some occasions, the UFOs - which are invisible to the human eye - have come very close to the team. Currently, over 4,000 additional digital photos are in backlog awaiting analysis by our imaging team. Above are 2 of 5 photos I took over 15 seconds while using two cameras - one in each hand. Two unknown objects flew over a known UFO-active site in Davidson County, at 11:50 PM on July 22, 2005. An orb image was photographed just seconds before the two UFOs arrived. Normally, a few hundred digital photographs are taken then downloaded on computers. The raw pictures are dark and usually have to be brightened to reveal any anomalous images but are otherwise left alone. Minimum editing is always the policy. We will continue to report any further sightings and findings as discoveries are made by our imaging team. Thanks to Alan Caviness =96 Carolina Group Research Project New Hampshire huge UFO sighting The image above is a colorized version with windows inserted of July 3, 1967, 7:15 PM, Cumberland, Rode Island Mothership photo by Joe Ferriere. Thanks to August Roberts UFO Photographs Vol. 2. and is a similar craft to the stories below EXETER -- Adam Dolge writes, "There was something odd in the sky last week, something that caused a Navy veteran with 10,000 hours of flight experience to have his own close encounter. The former flight engineer, who wished to be identified only as "David," said of the experience, "this was like nothing I've ever seen before." What the retired Navy chief petty officer said he saw on July 20, 2005, could only be classified as a UFO, an unidentified flying object. It was a bright and sunny afternoon, about 3:15 p.m., and David was outside preparing his lawnmower and tilted his head back to drink some water, through the bottom of the glass he saw a large cigar-shaped object hovering in the sky. David said windows were equally spaced around the object, however he didn't see anyone or anything inside. The size of the object was enormous. He said it was about the size of two USS Nimitz aircraft carriers. "But, the instant I put my glass down, I said, 'that's not a blimp.'" The object moved from west to east, very slowly for something that size, he said. His initial instinct was that the object was moving at about 100 knots, but something that big shouldn't be able to stay in the air if it's going that slow, he said. The object began changing colors from a bright silver to an orange-ish red. A strange cloud of red and orange flames began surrounding the object, and before he knew it the object stretched out like a rubber band. It grew to about twice its original size, and then it was gone. The entire incident lasted about 10 minutes, but he is unaware of the specific time because, "it felt like time stopped." So he went on the Internet and searched for "report UFO," and found the Web site for the Seattle-based National UFO Reporting Center. Peter Davenport, director of the UFO reporting center, said David's report was astonishing because of his history with flight. "I have no question on his reliability." He said he gets several accounts each year, but this one stood out. The report was well written and scientific, Davenport said. "In my view, that's one of the cardinal rules of an account," he said. Snip. Thanks to adolge.nul http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/exeter/07262005/news/54621.htm Seacoast= Newspapers,. COLUMN OF FIRE -- Barry W. writes, "The cylindrical object can glow also and 3200 years ago it was considered by the Israelis as a column of fire that helped bring them out of Egypt". The individual craft dropped "Angel Hair" that was then called Manna from Heaven and it was an eatable protein. http://www.yaridanjo.warmkessel.com/yaridanjo/fear.html#4 EAST KINGSTON -- A resident said she saw a "silver-cigar" shaped object in a daytime sky last week. "Lucienne." Claims she was standing in a meadow behind her house on North Road when she saw the long object in the sky. She described it as a pill shape, because it had rounded ends and was longer than it was wide. Dark spots lined the object, which she said appeared to be windows. Lucienne said the incident lasted about 30 seconds. http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/exeter/08022005/news/55742.htm New Jersey bright red glowing craft WALDWICK =96 A bright red glowing craft was seen flying only 200 feet above the witnesses on July 11, 2005, at 10 PM. The witness states, "My wife and I were standing outside our home with a neighbor and we witnessed a large bright glowing red object come out of the northern sky, drop down to 200 or 300 feet above ground." An airplane was flying above it at high altitude. We watched it move totally silently over our heads and disappear into the southern sky. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com New Mexico videos LORDSBURG =96 Benjie Meding sent me a remarkable video showing many UFOs in the area around his home in southwest NM. On May 5, 2005, a UFO chased an aircraft as shown above. Benjie sent a total of one hour and twelve minutes of various UFO videos. Most were of white unidentified objects that accomplish various maneuvers. The video also had dark F-117 Stealth fighter aircraft. Thanks to Benjie Meding New York orange disc BROOKLYN =96 On Monday July 11, 2005, the witness was walking home at 7:03 PM looking at the sky. He states, " I watched a jet climbing at about 7,000 to 10,000 feet altitude heading west out of JFK airport making a slow, wide turn and at the same time I noticed an orange/red balloon flying east at about 5,000 feet in front of and below the jet." As the jet flew over the object, the object made a slow tight circle underneath and towards the jet as if it was watching the jet make the turn southeast. I saw clearly this object was disk shaped as it waited twelve seconds and started moving smoothly straight up to 15,000 feet and through the top of a very large cloud bank and out of sight. It was about 1/20 the size of the 727 jet. The disk made a slow small circle under the jet as if taking a close look. Thanks to MUFON Case Management System http://www.mufon.com/ Ohio UFOs may be our aircraft MARIETTA -- I stumbled onto your web site after looking for creature sightings in my hometown, Marietta. I have witnessed many things that I can not explain to this day. But I can tell you that Wood County Airport is about a mile and a half by air from the Wal-Mart where your witness had a sighting. It has the longest runway in WV. I can also tell you, as I am an air defender in the Ohio National Guard, that Wood County is a major stop over point for military aircraft. Many times I have seen both rotary and fixed wing aircraft fly into Wood County Airport that is home to a WV Army Guard Medivac unit that use a combination of the older UH1 Iroquois, OH58 Kiowa and the newer UH60 Blackhawk. I have also seen Cobras, Chinooks, and even a Stealth fly over the area. These flights are not common knowledge, and could be mistaken. I am not trying to explain away any sightings, just presenting facts. Thanks to Jon FOSTORIA -- George Ritter keeps taking video of UFOs near his home. There is one on the upper left and a fast moving one on the right taken on July 29, 2005, appears to be in a weightless free-float with no interior g-forces. It was making impossible maneuvers and flies at tremendous speeds disappearing and reappearing. Paul Hill in his book "Unconventional Flying Objects" called this an "acceleration field." Pennsylvania five lights MCKEESPORT =96 The witness was leaving for work on July 25, 2005, and had just let his dog Shannon out when she started barking at 4:30 AM. The witness looked around and saw something strange. He states, "It was round and had about five colored lights, and it looked metallic silver. It just stayed right up in the sky, then a plane came in from the north and the UFO just shot off very fast. Thanks to MUFON http://www.mufon.com/reportufo.htm Virginia AVRO car disc on display Nick Balaskas writes, "Although it does seem unusual for this artist's conception of Avro Canada's supersonic saucer to be flying in the sky over Missouri, there is some evidence that it was built and flown in the U.S., so your feelings may prove to be correct. In personal correspondence from George Myers of North Carolina, he had this to say about his discussion with a young officer in uniform at the Ft. Eustis Museum where one of the saucer shaped Avro cars are on public display: ...he volunteered the statement that this Avro-car was the initial step to a successful program in which a disc aircraft did fly to 20,000 feet and at speeds lower than the sound barrier... Myers argued, "The Avro car was no disc airplane that flew to any altitude or speed. He Army officer said, I was wrong and we got into a polite scene there in the lobby." Finally, he said tugging at me... "I will show you...it is all in the file". He took me and my sons back to his office and started to go for the filing cabinets. At this moment my grown children protested claiming starvation. "Dad, can't this wait, we are hungry?" After some deliberation. I agreed to write the young officer and I did write the museum and never got an answer... George, "Any plans of attending the Exopolitics conference in at the University of Toronto Convocation Hall in September which you visited and spoke at several years earlier?" Thanks to Nick Balaskas Argentina UFOs Filmed CORDOBA =96 Two UFOs were observed on July 17, 2005, at 8:09 PM. The witness observed a light with considerable sheen near the moon, for an hour. A few seconds later another light with an abnormal path was seen. They were moving south for almost a minute. On July 2005, at 7:59 PM, a fire ball UFO with the magnitude of Jupiter appeared with much sheen on the southern horizon a very few degrees from the Moon. It accomplished a very stressed curve and disappeared suddenly at 8:30 PM. Several other lights were also observed near the planet Jupiter . Typical photo from Ricardo E D'angelo website at: http://www.glaucoart.com.ar/ Australia two objects rotating in the sky BANORA POINT, NSW =96 On July 21, 2005, two witnesses looked into the sky and noticed two faint, star like objects rotating in the sky at 6 PM. I observed as they rotated once, then separated, one heading north, the other heading east. I called to my brother and father to watch. My brother noticed the moving lights as they traveled across the sky. After incidents of injuries during the night, such as my broken leg and bleeding nose at age of five, observing flaming objects in the sky, bright flashes over our town, and identical unknown scarring on both my mother's back, and my back, it is quite difficult to ignore what is happening to us, and around us. My friend and his mother also watched three red lights rotating and 'dancing' in the sky very close to my home. Thanks to Brian Vike Director HBCCUFO Bangladesh cigar DACCA -- In 1968, in formerly East Pakistan while attending a dinner party, the many guests witnessed a cigar-shaped object followed by four "stars" at the same speed and in unison. We attempted to confirm this with the airport controllers the next morning, but they were sleeping at the time we described. The incident was not reported in the media. Canada object shoots across the sky KINGSTON, ONTARIO =96 Kevin Arman reports, "On June 10, 2005, at around 9:30 PM, my girlfriend and I just saw an object shoot across the sky. The object was in sight for about ten seconds and was moving at phenomenal speeds. The witness ran to get his camera. He states, "My heart was beating so fast, it still feels like a dream. The object shot from the west and went into a southwest direction. My girlfriend and I both remember feeling a static like feeling when it shot by as our hair was all statically charged and started to stick up on end." The larger light is the helicopter light, the smaller light the UFO. Both larger lights are on the helicopter, the two smaller lights are on the UFO. I now suspect that the helicopters are there because they have detected UFO activity. I believe that our military now has special equipment which they are able to detect UFOs, even when the UFOs are not visible to the unaided eye. Editors's Note: Aircrews using night vision glasses often report they see UFOs. Canadian Underwater UFOs. Palmiro Campagna writes, "There is nothing new about UFOs underwater." Note that in the late 1950's, the Department of National Defence in Canada put this poster in various government outlets requesting individuals to report unidentified objects, be they aircraft, naval ships, missiles or UFOs, both aerial and underwater. From my book: The UFO Files: The Canadian Connection Exposed. Thanks to Palmiro Campagna Mexico UFOs dump space junk CIUDAD VALLES --Antonio Martinez Chavez of the Ma=F1ana newspaper reports, Unidentified flying objects appeared in the skies over Ciudad Valles for the past three months have caused a commotion. Their most important manifestation, occurred on the 15th of this month at 2 p.m., when at least a dozen UFOs remained visible for nearly five minutes over the city's southwestern quarter and expelled what witnessed referred to as "space junk" Days later, on Thursday the 21st at 10:00 p.m. this same month, a new UFO remained stationary to the south of Valles, long enough to be photographed.. That day, as the temperature reached 40 Centigrade, Miroslava and Luz Esmeralda Martinez Hernandez, Prof. Ruth Sandoval, Mr. Enrique Sandoval and other persons residing in La Diana discovered -- a long row of silvery, oval shaped and semi- circular objects moving slowly over the Valles River. "I counted some ten objects. Nine of them were small or at least appeared so at a distance. Then there was a larger one at the end of the row," said an excited Miroslava Martinez Hernandez. The largest UFO had yellow or orange lights, and the other smaller ones surrounded it. Ruth Sandoval said, "They expelled red and black colored things that were hexagonal in shape, but very thin, like paper or metal sheets, and they fell in different locations." Snip. Story by Francisco Montoya Lara Translation (c) 2005. Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology. Mexican photos taken on July 15, 2005 by Ana Luisa Cid. UK Crop Circles Lucy Pringle writes, Feature writer Andrew Yates telephoned me on Thursday evening, 14 July 2005 to ask if the pictures of crop circles that I had submitted to the Daily Mail were all in the south of England. I asked him to include a short piece in his editorial about my long standing research in to the effects of electromagnetic fields on living systems; for example changes in brain activity, hormone levels and protein levels in seeds that were to be found in genuine crop circles. He refused, saying it was only going to be a very short piece. I then asked him to tell me what had been written and he replied just a couple of paragraphs saying that these formations were to be found in the fields in Southern England. At no time did he tell me that he had written that crop circles were `now known to be intricate works of human art designed using computer technology. On reflection, I can now see why he did not reveal what he had written and why he refused to include my work on electromagnet fields on living systems as it would have been in direct conflict with his editorial. I have had very many happy years of association with the Daily Mail working with people of integrity who researched their subject correctly instead of making bald statements for which they have no evidence and which in consequence unfortunately mislead both the public and their readership. Thanks to Lucy Pringle Crop Circle in Alton, England U. K. a bizarre object and a giant UFO ECCLES, MANCHESTER -- At around 10 AM, on July 10, 2005, I was sitting outside with four colleagues when they saw a very bright flashing rotating object in the sky. The photos were taken using a Cannon 300D camera with a 300 mm image stabilizing lens. The original photographs untouched are available if required. I pointed out to everyone, and everyone saw it. Four minutes after the object had passed over we all saw another object flying in the opposite direction at great speed against the wind and suddenly took a sharp turn to the left and disappeared. To view photos: http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews =3Darticle =3D2910 ASHBURTON. DEVON =96 Andrew Bell writes, "Three witnesses report seeing an amazing L-shaped building complete with three balconies at the rear flying at only fifty feet at 30 mph or 50 km/hr or less at 8 PM around dusk. They saw the object for 15-20 minutes. Below the balconies were two mesh dishes shaped similar to butterfly wings, pulsing a blue/purple light, that seemed to be propelling the craft. Underside we saw three white lights with huge pipes between them. There were two lights at the rear and one light at the front. Also every straight edge was like a fluorescent tube and the craft looked as if it was constructed of concrete with a yellow appearance. This craft emitted a heavy electrical humming noise as it passed over about fifty feet in the air. The witnesses estimated the craft was 120 meters long and 40 meters wide. It was 40 meters tall at the front for 80 meters and the final 40 meters was 80 meters tall. Personal Background: A 47 year old mechanic qualified to teach in further education. Solar Storms may bring hurricanes Jim Mccanney writes, "A rapidly developing system of solar sun spots as well as other solar system conditions is prompting this emergency posting." The sun is highly erratic lately and we are about to receive the first major solar flare from Sun Spot 792 which is the largest and newest sunspot to face earth as it rounded the sun a few days ago. Sun spots 791 and 793 are also facing earth. Tonight look for auroras in the northern and southern latitudes resulting from the current near miss of the latest solar flare. On August 5th we have a new moon with very erratic solar conditions that will likely lead to major hurricanes forming on earth. We could be in for some of the most severe solar flaring and resulting solar storms and severe earth weather witnessed in modern historical times in the next two weeks. The people who are in dire danger now are the astronauts on the space station with a crippled shuttle. http://www.jmccanneyscience.com/Sun-Earth-Connection.HTM "Hair of the Alien" The July issue of the MUFON UFO Journal will carry an article on the book and the Khoury hair DNA case. "Hair of the alien? The book claims that in 1992, Peter Khoury in Sydney, Australia was visited by two female entities which left behind physical evidence in the form of strands of blonde hair. In a documented DNA study the hair is different from normal human hair that likely indicates an alien hybrid breeding program and advanced biogenetics. Available from www.amazon.com Donate to Filer's Files to receive CD So you won't miss a single breaking news story or the increased evidence for UFO and life in the universe. Help solve the mysteries of the universe. We have been bringing you the latest in UFO news since 1995, on radio, television and the Internet. Your dollars do make a difference! We appreciate our loyal subscribers participation but we need everyone's help not just a few. Annual Membership is only $25 for 52 weekly intelligence reports. Don't miss the latest images of UFOs from Earth and Mars. Subscribe today and receive a free UFO Photo CD. Be sure to ask for the CD, Send check or money order to: George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055. You can also go to: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for majorstar.nul You may use Paypal, Visa, American Express, or Master Charge. REAL ESTATE Relocation Help! Get your free report and learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent to help you relocate, buy or sell a home. To get a free copy of this report e-mail me at: Majorstar.nul MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership includes the Journal and costs only $45.00 per year. To join MUFON or to report a UFO see http://www.mufon.com/. To ask questions contact MUFONHQ.nul Filer's Files is copyrighted 2005 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue. These reports and comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to majorstar.nul Sending mail automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION. God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Surveillance Of UFO Researchers From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:36:45 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:14:47 -0400 Subject: Surveillance Of UFO Researchers In light of the recent debate re my book and the issue of the possibility of official monitoring of UFO researchers and the UFO community (specifically in the post-2001 era in which I was
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Plane - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:21:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:20:00 -0400 Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Plane - Clark >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:18:39 -0400 >Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Plane >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:45:15 -0700 >>Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet >Reminds me of the man, I can't call his name to mind at the >moment, who wrote all of those lengthy books about Lemuria, >replete with claims like the last words of Jesus being spoken in >Mayan. You're thinking of James Churchward, who called Lemuria "Mu." Sitchin, I am sure, is sincere, even if his claims are bunk, but
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 'Herringbone' Crop Formation In Ohio From: Paul Anderson - CCCRN News <cccrnnews.nul> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 11:57:59 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:21:59 -0400 Subject: 'Herringbone' Crop Formation In Ohio CCCRN NEWS E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network August 3, 2005 http://www.cccrn.ca _____________________________ 'HERRINGBONE' CROP FORMATION IN OHIO While we are still waiting for new crop circle reports this year here in Canada, there is a very interesting new report from Nancy Talbott of the BLT Research Team regarding a crop formation in Ohio, USA with a unique and unusual "herringbone" crop lay: "A brand new lay pattern - seen for the first time anywhere in the world, so far as we know - has been documented in a wheat field in Ohio. BLT fieldworkers confirm a clear "Herringbone" interlacing or weave throughout the whole formation, if in fact this IS a crop formation. The reason I raise the question is because the Ohio event in a rough _square_, without anything circular in sight. A possible UFO is reported on the same day the formation was discovered." For more photos & field info go to UPDATES page on the BLT website, or directly to: http://www.bltresearch.com/ohio.htm There is also an update on the BLT website regarding an examination of blackened cattle corn stalks from one of the two formations at Mission, British Columbia in 2002, which analysis showed to be a common opportunistic fungus called Ustilago, not charring as had been speculated. While a "negative" result, it underscores the need for serious and objective scientific studies of possible anomalies. http://www.bltresearch.com/mission.htm _____________________________ CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent free to your e-mail To subscribe or unsubscribe, send an e-mail with either
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet - From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:58:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:23:46 -0400 Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet - >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:45:15 -0700 >Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet >>From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 19:28:27 -0500 >>Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet >>>From: NASANews.nul >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:20:21 -0400 (EDT) >>>Subject: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet >>>Dolores Beasley Headquarters, Washington July 29, 2005 ><snip> >>>NASA SCIENTISTS DISCOVER TENTH PLANET >>Hello List hope you are well one and all, Nibiru, The Moon, >>The Dinosaurs? >>Well List what are your thoughts, what should we expect is >>NIBIRU coming or isn't it? >Hello John. >In a word, no. 'Planet' 2003 UB313 would be a very poor choice >for Nibiru. Its orbital period is yet to be worked out, but is >something like hundreds of years instead of thousands. >UB313 is now 3 times further out than Pluto. Scientists estimate >a surface temperature of 30 Kelvins or minus 405 degrees >Fahrenheit, far colder than needed to not only liquefy air >(oxygen, nitrogen etc.) but to freeze it solid. Hello Larry. How do Nibiruan supporters come to reason that a planet so distant from our sun could possibly support life ? The planet Venus is closer to the sun therefore hotter, while Mars further out is therefore colder. What else am I missing, is Nibiru an artificial Satellite ? How come Nasa withheld the new outer planet scenario for two years when it is always immediately made known to the public when one more new planet of 100 Jupiter type planets orbits a distant star ? >I'm sure any Nibiruans would find this highly distressing. >At its closest approach to Earth's orbit, believed to be some >280 years from now, it will still be about 38 astronomical units >from the Sun, i.e. 38 times as far from the Sun as the Earth is >on average. http://xfacts.com/x2.htm Now here we have the planet Venus surrounded by stars? I doubt. I count nine planets, possibly two more moons and then
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Secrecy News -- 08/03/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 15:33:34 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:26:56 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/03/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 74 August 3, 2005 ** COURT AFFIRMS STATE SECRETS PRIVILEGE IN CIA CASE ** TUMULT IN IDAHO OVER PLUTONIUM 238 PRODUCTION ** NUCLEAR SPACE SECRECY ** SOME MORE CRS REPORTS COURT AFFIRMS STATE SECRETS PRIVILEGE IN CIA CASE The state secrets privilege asserted by the Director of Central Intelligence is sufficient grounds for dismissing an employment discrimination lawsuit brought against the Central Intelligence Agency, a federal appeals court ruled today. The ruling reinforces the government's increasing reliance on the state secrets privilege as a means of evading legal challenges. Former CIA officer Jeffrey Sterling, an African American, sued the Agency in 2001 claiming that he had been the object of unlawful racial discrimination. His case was dismissed after the Central Intelligence Agency asserted the state secrets privilege, contending that the lawsuit threatened to result in exposure of classified information. Upon appeal to the Fourth Circuit, the dismissal was upheld today. See a copy of the Fourth Circuit ruling here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/jud/sterling0805.pdf "This decision reflects yet another example of the Judiciary's abdication of its responsibility or simple unwillingness to challenge broad national security assertions invoked by the Executive Branch in civil litigation," said Mark S. Zaid, Sterling's attorney. A press release from Mr. Zaid commenting on the case may be found here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/08/sterling080305.html TUMULT IN IDAHO OVER PLUTONIUM 238 PRODUCTION "A hostile and unwavering crowd clashed with officials from the U.S. Department of Energy at the Sun Valley Inn Wednesday night, turning the DOE's first public hearing regarding the proposed production of plutonium-238 at the Idaho National Laboratory into a verbal slugfest," the Idaho Mountain Express reported vividly on July 22. For some reason, members of the public expressed skepticism towards the government officials. "You've really insulted my intelligence with your graphs and inability to answer my questions," said resident Richard Gouley of Bellevue. "But coming to us under the current administration, I don't expect anything but lies from you." Plutonium 238 heat sources have been used to generate electrical power in some deep space probes such as Galileo and Cassini, and in various, mostly unacknowledged national security missions. The Department of Energy is proposing to produce 330 pounds of plutonium (Pu) 238 in Idaho over the next 30 years (as first reported in the New York Times on June 27). "Valley says pee-eww to plutonium plan" by Steve Benson was published in the Idaho Mountain Express on July 22. It can be located through the paper's archive for that date here: http://www.mtexpress.com NUCLEAR SPACE SECRECY "If secrecy on nuclear space projects made no sense a year ago..., it makes even less sense in the world of today," according to an editorial in that appeared in the journal Nucleonics -- in 1964. See "Nuclear Space Secrecy -- An Outdated Policy," Nucleonics, March 1964: http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/nucleonics1964.pdf SOME MORE CRS REPORTS Reports of the Congressional Research Service are increasingly available (without official authorization) through the Center for Democracy and Technology (www.opencrs.com) and the State Department's Foreign Press Center (fpc.state.gov//c4763.htm). A few CRS reports that do not appear to be readily available elsewhere include: "Navy DD(X) and CG(X) Programs: Background and Issues for Congress," updated May 31, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS21059.pdf "Consular Identification Cards: Domestic and Foreign Policy Implications, the Mexican Case, and Related Legislation," updated May 26, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32094.pdf "Vaccine Policy Issues," updated May 19, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL31793.pdf "Islam: A Primer," February 19, 2003: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS21432.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: Surveillance Of UFO Researchers - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:19:20 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:05:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Surveillance Of UFO Researchers - Boone >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:36:45 -0700 >Subject: Surveillance Of UFO Researchers >In light of the recent debate re my book and the issue of the >possibility of official monitoring of UFO researchers and the >UFO community (specifically in the post-2001 era in which I >was >contacted by the various US sources) has anyone else >experienced >anything similar? >Nick R. Nope Nick, it hasn't gotten that bad yet. Usually I follow them instead. Besides, anyone following me better be up-wind. I also figure no one will admit being followed as someone around here might make some crack about someone being 'paranoid' and get someone certified.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: Ice Lake Found on Mars - Kimball From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:39:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:06:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found on Mars - Kimball >From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 00:15:41 EDT >Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found on Mars <snip> >Eleanor: > >And exactly what "crime" would you charge them with? I would charge them with fraudulent use of _taxpayer_ funds. They are supposed to be carrying on a space exploration program, and failing to include biology experiments is fraud of the highest order. The executives and "scientists" who are running the space program don't own it - _we_ do. It would be like the Department of Defense not supplying
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:43:27 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:07:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon - Balaskas >Source: EcceNova Editions - British Columbia, Canada >http://www.eccenova.com/Media%20Kit%20Heavenly%20Lights.htm >PRESS RELEASE >For Immediate Release: July 2nd, 2005 >New History Reveals the Truth About the Fatima Incident >Authors say Famed Apparitions in 1917 were Close Encounters with >Alien Beings <snip> >Now the whole world can know the truth about the apparitions of >Fatima. This new translation by American journalists Andrew D. >Basiago and Eva M. Thompson offers a powerful argument for both >UFO researchers and religious scholars alike to re-examine the >actual evidence that at last explains the enduring mystery of >the Fatima incident. >About the Authors >Joaquim Fernandes is Professor of History at the University >Fernando Pessoa in Porto, Portugal. He directs the Multicultural >Apparitions Research International Academic Network (Project >MARIAN). His research interests include the history of science >and the comparative anthropology of religion, with an emphasis >on anomalistic phenomena. >Fina d'Armada holds a Master's degree in Women's Studies. She >has written five books about the Fatima incident, all based on >original documents held in the archives -- three co-authored with >Fernandes -- and hundreds of articles. Her research interests >include phenomenology, local history, the history of women, and >he era of Portuguese discovery. <snip> Hi Everyone! Although I have not yet read Joaquim Fernandes' long awaited book about what actually happened at Fatima, Portugal in 1917, I look forward to doing so. Like Nick Redfern's book on the Roswell UFO crash, although we may not agree with his conclusion of what really happened at New Mexico in 1947, it does force us to seriously consider other possible interpretations that we would ignore because of our prior biases, prejudices or beliefs. Unlike crops circles or physical evidence cases (such as the alien blonde hair strands that Bill Chalker and Whitley Strieber obtained and sent out for testing) where no UFOs are ever sighted and no proof of alien visitation is established but are accepted as part of the UFO phenomenon, the Fatima Incident does have these direct connections to UFOs and aliens (or adavanced/higher intelligences). If this historic "religious" incident can now be accepted as a genuine "ET/UFO" incident, then UFO researchers and religious scholars have a awful lot more to learn about the UFO phenomenon by closely workingh with each other. As I have said before, UFOs are part of a bigger picture and cannot be understood or studied
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 3 Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:44:19 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:09:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - White >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:49:31 -0700 >Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars <snip> >Now, with liquid water all but a foregone conclusion, I wonder >how deeply anyone or anything will dig.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 00:24:10 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 07:55:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - Dickenson >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:53:03 -0400 >Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:26:22 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars ><snip> >>But no Mars probe after Viking and up to the present time has >>carried any biology experiments. >Far as I'm concerned, every NASA executive who made a conscious >decision to omit biology experiments has committed a crime >against the taxpayers, and should be in prison. Hello Eleanor & List Evidence on Mars has been presented in a typical 'disinformation' pattern for years - but some truthful sources are: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/sep/m05-014.shtml Terry W Colvin's List of Mars Evidence - Mars was once a Moon http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/SEMLQ71DU8E_0.html Mars was once in strong magnetic field (a gas giant's?) http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/dec/m23-018.shtml re: pre-launch queries to officials - falsely dismissed separately and independently http://www.perceptions.couk.com/uef/mass.html#mars Mars' non-symmetrical crust (only 'locked moons' have them) Occam's Razor says - of the different hard evidence on Mars - there's only one likely cause: Mars was once a moon of a gas giant, and (by scooping H2O gas and solids) had plenty of water and (by giant's electro-mag field) was warm, perhaps for billions of years. Occam's Razor also says - of the contradictory Mars claims and disinformation - there's just one likely motive - http://www.perceptions.couk.com/future1.html a possible explanation for propaganda & misinforming That suggested reason is 'industrial' - but some might also say Mars is intended to be a hidey-hole and refuge for our rulers. cheers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: UFO Hunters - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:33:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 07:56:56 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Hunters - Fleming >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 07:50:43 -0300 >Subject: Re: UFO Hunters >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:25:50 -0500 >>Subject: Re: UFO Hunters <snip> >>It's amazing that a Harvard astrophysicist would own up to an >>opinion like that on TV without having his face blacked out and >>his voice disguised! >Anybody have a name for this courageous fellow? I won't see a >tape of the show for at least a week.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 AUFORN Public Meeting August 5th 2005 From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:40:45 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:00:25 -0400 Subject: AUFORN Public Meeting August 5th 2005 The Australian UFO Research Network Public meeting Queensland Brisbane: Springwood community Center First Friday of every second month: --- 5th August 2005 Location: Cinderella Drive, Springwood. Start Time: &.00 p.m Cost: $7.00 members $3.00 Topic: Guest speaker Paul Clacher More about Paul at: Link: http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/AugustMeet.html For more details contact Robert: 07 55487205 - 0427164677 or email auforn.nul or ufologist.nul --- For more information on Lectures and Public meetings visit: Web site: http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/meetings.html Diane Harrison The Australian UFO Researcher Network http://www.auforn.com P.O Box 738 Beaudesert, 4285
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:59:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:03:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - Fleming >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:53:03 -0400 >Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:26:22 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars ><snip> >>But no Mars probe after Viking and up to the present time has >>carried any biology experiments. >Far as I'm concerned, every NASA executive who made a conscious >decision to omit biology experiments has committed a crime >against the taxpayers, and should be in prison. What a tragedy >there aren't enough people who feel that way to demand a hearing >at which they would be required to explain their decision, with >penalties a possibility. The JPL people would claim they _are_ searching for life in their own way, as mysterious as the ways of JPL might seem to outsiders. There seems to be a great deal of spin involved when they bill the Mars rovers as having something to do with a search for life on Mars when they carry no instruments that could detect living organisms even indirectly (unless a Martian walked up and waved at the camera). >At least that would be an opportunity to force future Mars >probes to carry biology experiments. >I wonder if James Oberg has an explanation? It may surprise you to know that Oberg seems to think that NASA might be allergic to life on Mars, too. I don't know if this artoc;e bu Oberg was mentioned on the list before, but it came as something of a shock: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4480097/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 20:45:14 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:05:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:33:37 -0700 >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:27:42 EDT >>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>Redfern's book itself asserts that almost all of his "sources" >>are government disinformation/psych war agents, and he has >>stated on UpDates that all but the UK guy are in direct >>communication with each (see also the book p. 100), which >>screams "collusion" with multiple exclamation points!!! >Correct, they _do_ all know each other. The reason behind what >brought them all together is intriguing (that doesn't feature in >the book at all) and I'll get that all together before I do the >new report. A number of Listers already know the full story >behind what brought them together and how. >But for 3 of them - Barker, Salter, and the Colonel - to admit >to having engaged in disinformation ops in the past seems an >unlikely way of presenting themselves if the intent is to spread >more disinformation! Well AFOSI agent Doty has admitted to UFO "disinformation ops in the past," the very one your sources are talking about in your book. He has just published a book on it, which some say is just a new package for spreading more disinformation. And he has also denied it all at various times in years past. >If they _were_ spreading disinformation to me (rather than >coming clean finally after _previously_ spreading >disinformation), arguably the _last_ thing they would want to do >is to tell me that they had worked in spreading disinformation >previously, as that would inevitably raise suspicions. It would? Look at AFOSI agent Doty. Despite admitting to "disinformation ops in the past" Doty is still believed by some in the UFO community, as you well know, and still appears to be spreading disinformation. >>From Redfern's Aug. 9, 1996, interview with the mysterious Mr. >>"Levine" (apparently a pseudonym), where "Levine" recounts what >>a Mr. T of the British MoD Defence Intelligence Staff (possibly >>DI55 ??) told him in early Oct 1989. > >Yes a pseudonym. To clarify, and as I have mentioned on-List >before, my original manuscript includes none of this "Mr. T" and >"Mr. D" etc., etc., alias stuff. This was strictly changes >insisted upon by Simon & Schuster's legal people. Does this mean "Al Barker" and "Bill Salter" are fake names? Whose name is real in the book now, among your insider "sources"? >>Thus contrary to Redfern's latest postings, it is irrelevant >>whether he was going to publish UFO books to widely disseminate >>material to the public. The disinfo was targeted at the "UFO >>research community" (p. 83) not to the general public. >But again, why target someone who was all but retired from that >community? That was answered in the very next paragraphs, you should have waited till then instead of splitting off my supporting points into fragments in a divide-and-conquer strategy. >>When Jaime Shandera received the first MJ-12 documents in the >>mail in Dec 1984 he had not published any UFO books at all! His >>cohort Bill Moore had not co-authored a UFO book in over 4 >>years, and had not published his own UFO book at all. >Surely you jest, re the Moore-Shandera comparison? Moore and >Shandera, in 1984, were still _deeply_ involved in UFO research >and having all sorts of on-going clandestine meets, publishing >self-published reports on Roswell, writing papers for the Mufon >Symposiums on a regular basis from around 81 to 85. Shandera was a Hollywood tv producer and _not_ known to the UFO community at large as being involved in any UFO research Nor had Shandera published _anything_, not a single report on Roswell, or anything else, for MUFON or anyone else as of Dec 1984 when he received the MJ-12 film in his mailbox, or for years to come. Shandera was a total unknown, a completely new name, a surprise to the UFO community as a whole (excepting of course the Moore-Friedman team) when it came out in 1987 that he had been the recipient of the MJ-12 documents. Klass at the time wrote: "Why would the [MJ-12] film be sent to Shandera, who has never published any papers on UFOs or crashed saucers and does not even consider himself a ufologist?" The only ones who knew that Shandera had an occasional "clandestine meeting" as a sidekick to Bill Moore were the very same AFOSI personnel Shandera was secretly meeting with and who were running the disinformation operation, the same operation your "sources" tell about in your book (pp. 82-84)! You with your cloak-and-dagger meetings with "sources" such as Mr. "Levine" and those at the remote cafe, may just be the new Jaime Shandera. Likewise, a non-UFO San Francisco tv reporter Ron Lakis was targeted by AFOSI when special agent Doty was going around trying to pass off the bogus Project Aquarius fraud to Peter Gersten, Linda Howe, Bill Moore, and others in the 1981- 1983 period (it was already a hot topic at the National UFO Conference in 1981). Although non-UFO journalists have greater credibility and are targeted by disinfo ops, they are also more skeptical and tend to reject approaches outright, unless they have already been wittingly recruited. Hence we rarely hear about approaches made to journalists, who don't publish the approaches because they have no proof and too little to go on, especially if the initial contact is made without identifying an official agency such as AFOSI. Journalists get zillions of crank contacts all the time on terrorism, scandals, and whatnot, this would be just another except that it's in an even loonier subject of UFO's, in their minds. >>Thus the question is whether Redfern was seen by AFOSI as one of >>the " 'meddlesome' players, researchers, and authors in the UFO >>field" (p. 83) who could be exploited in a disinfo op. >I guess I _could_ have been considered meddlesome and ripe for >disinfo when I had never been book-published in 1996, or after I >was out of the subject post-1999. Just like TV producer Shandera in 1984 or reporter Lakis in 1983. You could also revive your UFO community contacts at any time. Moreover, you forget that the Colonel said they ran a "faked [UFO] rumor mill" with "bogus pilot sightings, bogus radar reports" passed on to Keyhoe, Stringfield and others having nothing to do with Roswell, as well bogus material that did have to do with Roswell (p. 102). A general UFO "rumor mill" does not have to have exacting recruitment standards, it spreads rumors to whomever will spread them. A "rumor mill" does not require that _books_ have to be published based on the rumors. Requiring book-length products would grind a "rumor mill" to an immediate standstill. If every daily Hollywood gossip columnist and tabloid reporter had to wait till there was a book before they could pass on the latest sleazy gossip they would be shut down in an instant (being allowed only to go public when a tell-all book comes through). >But I come back to what I said: it would have been classic >stupidity to use someone like me back then and precisely in the >period when my UFO research, writing and contact with colleagues >was at its absolute lowest. Doesn't the Project Aquarius Executive Briefing sound like sheer "stupidity" to you? Do you think Jesus Christ as an alien visitor 2,000 years ago is a "smart" bit of content to put in a report purportedly prepared for the President, one who as an evangelical might take offense to such heretical nonsense? Yet this twaddle was peddled by AFOSI in 1981-1983. Also how was AFOSI to know your precious UFO community contacts were at their "absolute lowest" like they have surveillance teams monitoring you 24/7??? And why should they care anyway, you mean you couldn't revive your UFO community contacts at any time like you have now done??? Did any of your disinformation "sources" ever tell you this was how the disinfo ops were run??? Evidently you have a double-standard here, where the disinfo ops you recount in your book consist of not much more than peddling 500 some pages of forged government UFO documents to back up a bunch of wild crashed-saucer-alien stories passed around to various and sundry in the UFO community. But if the same disinfo op is to be considered as applying to you, in putting out this book, why then the standards are artificially raised. When a disinfo op against _you_ is suggested then you try to come up with every possible excuse as to why _you_ are the only one the disinfo professional liars are telling the truth to, and _you_ are the only one who is not passing on disinformation from them, and how any such disinfo op against _you_ would have to be done perfectly and completely rationally with major resources arrayed to assess your recruitment potential, mathematically calculating exactly how much "contact with the UFO community" you had this week or last, etc. Again how rational and perfect was the Aquarius Briefing forgery of AFOSI? Or the Ellsworth "shooting of the alien" fraud of AFOSI? Evidently the Aquarius garbage was overhauled and polished into a much more professional product the next time around. So we see a process of reworking and refining UFO disinformation stories and fake documents, as well as passing off faked UFO stories and documents into a UFO "rumor mill" (p. 102), so the quality of the disinfo varies widely. This means some UFO disinfo is poorly done and some is better done, always, there is never a strict perfectionist standard applied which allows only 100% perfect fabrications to be disseminated. In fact, if as recounted in your book the disinfo is actually intended to eventually blow up and embarrass and confuse the UFO community (p. 83) then it has to be flawed from the outset. It's like the con man testifying in court that the story he told last week was a lie but now he is telling the truth! Your "sources," admitted professional psych war disinformation specialists, are like that. Really these are very desperate grasping-at-straws arguments. Again you are trying to micromanage an AFOSI disinfo op from the outside, dictating exactly how it must be carried out if you are to pronounce judgment on whether it exists or not, and always treating it as if it must be some huge multi-million dollar expensive operation. Apparently for there to be any disinfo op in your view they must have surveillance teams 24/7 watching your every move and monitoring all your contacts, sifting through them to decide what percentage is UFO-related so they can write up pointless ridiculous elaborate reports saying: "Subject Redfern has dropped his UFO contacts to only 7% of all contacts this week. This is getting dangerously low. According to our AFOSI UFO Disinformation Standards only writers and journalists who maintain at least 5% UFO community contacts can be targets for our program! (Next week's Redfern Surveillance Report:) Redfern's UFO contacts have dropped to only 4%. We cannot use him now for our UFO Disinformation Program. (Following week's Redfern Surveillance Report:) Redfern's UFO contacts have risen now to 5%, we can use him again!" I predict you will shoot back and nitpick that when you had said your UFO community contacts were at their "absolute lowest" that you _of course_ meant a number more like 2% or 1% or _whatever_ and then just avoid the broader point I'm making (the exact number is not the issue but the way you insinuate that it is something so important that it has to be anal- retentively calculated before you will admit an agency like AFOSI might consider using you to spread disinfo). >>Also the question is whether AFOSI files were even up to date on >>Redfern's activities and contacts, or accurate. >But it would surely hardly take long to find out! But again you assume they even cared. If it was a shotgun approach of testing out various contacts and seeing what worked, see what hogwash was swallowed by the UFO community and what wouldn't fly, then it wouldn't matter what the files said correctly or incorrectly about your activities, and it wouldn't matter what you had or had not done on UFO's in a long time. A disinformation "rumor mill" (p. 102) does not have exacting recruitment standards! You assume a high-powered high-priority operation with vast resources where every aspect of the operation is meticulously examined and investigated before every move. If in fact as I have been able to reconstruct these disinfo ops on UFO's were low-priority, low-level, minimally-funded, then they just didn't bother with extensive background checks on every potential contact, maybe just a minimal AFOSI file check, a DCII (Defense Criminal Investigations Index) check, maybe skipping a NAC (National Agency Check) since they don't want to constantly be tipping off other agencies as to the identities of AFOSI Confidential Informants. Intelligence "tradecraft" calls for case officers to be trained to be patient in developing agents over the long-term and cast a wide net for recruiting potential agents and contacts. Hence
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 AVRO Disc From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:01:41 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:06:53 -0400 Subject: AVRO Disc Aloha Listerions, In case you are wondering what the AVRO disc and the V173 look
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:46:32 -1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:10:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Salla >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:23:39 EDT >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC <snip> >>>>>>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>>>>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:05:24 -1000 >>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC ><snip> >>>>>>>>http://www.cia.gov/csi/kent_csi/docs/v03i4a05p_0003.htm >>>>>>>>Certainly, Cutler was clear about the role played by the "NSC >>>>>>>>Operations Coordinating Board." Cutler viewed it as integral >>>>>>>>part of the NSC system and part of the NSC itself. >Notice that Cutler nowhere says that the OCB was an integral >part of the NSC "throughout its entire history 1953-1961" as you >claimed in a previous posting. Cutler does not put dates like >"1953-1961" on his organizational titles, his account is very >generalized. He's talking about the idealized functioning of OCB >and the NSC at the end not the detailed history up to that >point. >Cutler does not mention Jackson's reports in 1954 and 1956 >critical of the OCB's powerlessness and Eisenhower's 1957 >Executive Order rectifying that by merging the OCB into the NSC. >Cutler's failure to mention the profound shortcomings of the NSC >and OCB under his tenure are not surprising since it would >reflect badly on his own performance, something you have trouble >understanding. Since Cutler omits to mention the Jackson reports >and the President's Executive Order merging OCB into the NSC, >Cutler's historical remarks cannot possibly qualify as a valid >detailed history. >Your "revisionist history" trashes the Eisenhower Executive >Order as a needless exercise because you allege, contrary to all >credible evidence, that the OCB was doing just fine and was >already part of the NSC "functionally." What a joke! > >Talk about absurd euphemisms, the OCB was NOT "functioning" and >that's why it had to be fixed. You twist this history to its >polar opposite of the truth just to rescue your phony UFO >"whistleblower" (actually leaker and fabricator) Corso who >repeatedly lied to say he had been an illustrious "NSC Member" >or on the highly impressive "NSC Staff" but usually forgot to >even mention the OCB. >Contrary to your desperate "revisionist" inventions, the OCB did >not "evolve" into a closer and closer relationship to the NSC, >but remained in the same static ineffectual position of pleading >for "voluntary cooperation" from government departments in 1954 >when Jackson complained that this system was not working (and >that the OCB needed to be made a part of the NSC), as it did in >1956 when Jackson continued to complain that OCB was not working >and needed to made a part of the NSC. >Same in 1954 as in 1956, the OCB was not working because it was >_not_ part of the NSC and thus did not have the NSC's authority >to enforce compliance with directives, as Jackson reported to >the President. You just flatly evade these facts. >Under OCB's founding charter, Eisenhower's Executive Order >10483, the OCB had no independent power or authority to order >any agency to comply with its wishes or the NSC's directives. >The OCB could only "advise the agencies concerned" and >"initiate... proposals." >You cannot produce a shred of evidence that, prior to its merger >with the NSC, the OCB could order departments and agencies to >act and could enforce its own orders. To the contrary there is >indisputable proof from Jackson's reports, and those of other >agencies and consultants, who found OCB could not enforce >compliance and that the system was not working because OCB was >independent of the NSC and not a part of the NSC. Those experts >on the scene in the 50's found that the OCB's separate-from-NSC >status was what needed to be changed, and it was changed - after >Corso left. > ><snip> I have already expressed my reasons as to why the argument you are making about Col Corso lying when he claimed to be a staff member to Eisenhower's NSC is weak. Despite this weakness you are determined to use the little historical evidence that supports your case, while ignoring contrary historical evidence. I find that to be a very biased way of dealing with such an important whistleblower case as Col Corso. Historical scholarship assesses both sides of the ledger in coming up with objective appraisals of key historical figures. Corso is a historical figure in UFOlogy and yet you appear determined to only give importance to that historical evidence that supports your case. I find little point in continuing this discussion with you given the subjective biases that drive your methodology. Consequently, I will summarize once again what I believe to be the historical evidence supporting Corso, and which clearly negates your argument that the Operations Coordinating Board was not part of the NSC during Corso's tenure. I will subsequently leave it to others to continue this thread while I attend to other whistleblower cases I am currently researching. I have already pointed out the FBI files mentioning Corso's service on the OCB NSC . The FBI reference to the OCB as part of the NSC is a historical document. I have also pointed out Robert Cutler's description of the OCB during the years 1953 to 1958 where he clearly describes it as being part of the NSC implementation mechanism. The term he used NSC Operations Coordinating Board clearly shows that he associated the two during the period in which Corso served. There of course is also the Senate document that identifies Corso as a member of Eisenhower's NSC. These all demonstrate that the OCB was considered to be a part of the NSC during its entire history. Now your objections are interesting in the way you spin these to support your case. You first refer to the historian William Jackson and his 1954 and 1956 recommendations to have the OCB formally incorporated into the NSC. You claim that this is historical evidence supporting your case, and that Jackson was more reliable than Cutler who was biased because the latter actually served on the OCB and wanted to gloss over his failures. Basically, you are saying that a historian/advisor knew better how the OCB functioned by reading a set of historical documents, than one of the key people serving on it who was no less that Eisenhower's Special Assistant. That's a very contentious point. Nevertheless, let's assume that Jackson's chief goal was to strengthen the OCB by formally incorporating it into the NSC. That by no means excludes what Cutler and others describe of the OCB as being part of the NSC though informally or de facto. You say that OCB only became part of the NSC with EO 10700 issued in 1957. However, you overlook that objection that all this achieved was an reorganization designed to strengthen or make the OCB more efficient. This doesn't negate its former position as a de facto part of the NSC by virtue of its reporting and implementing features for the NSC, and whatever other mechanisms that were in place that made it part of the NSC system and which Cutler was very aware of. What's worth emphasizing is that the NSC under Eisenhower was a collection of different agencies and committees that worked in way that was constantly evolving and was described at the time as the 'NSC system'. So the OCB was part of the NSC system which was very fluid and nuanced in the various committees and agencies it had attached to it. So while you may argue that the NSC comprised only the cabinet level officials that sat on it with the President, Secretary of State, etc., the NSC was much more extensive and loosely organized and comprised agencies/committee such as the OCB. The proof for this is in the following extract from the official White House history of the NSC which can be read online. Source: http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/history.html#eisenhower "The genesis of the new NSC system was a report prepared for the President in March 1953 by Robert Cutler, who became the President's Special Assistant for National Security Affairs. Cutler proposed a systematic flow of recommendation, decision, and implementation that he later described as the "policy hill" process. At the bottom of the hill, concerned agencies such as State and Defense produced draft policy recommendations on specific topics and worked for consensus at the agency level. These draft NSC papers went up the hill through the Planning Board, created to review and refine the recommendations before passing them on for full NSC consideration. The NSC Planning Board met on Tuesday and Friday afternoons and was composed of officials at the Assistant Secretary level from the agencies with permanent or standing representation on the Council, as well as advisers from the JCS and CIA. Hundreds of hours were spent by the Board reviewing and reconstructing proposed papers for the NSC. Cutler resigned in 1958 in exhaustion. The top of the foreign policy-making hill was the NSC itself, chaired by the President, which met regularly on Thursday mornings. The Council consisted of the five statutory members: the President, Vice President, Secretaries of State and Defense, and Director of the Office of Defense Mobilization. Depending on the subject under discussion, as many as a score of other senior Cabinet members and advisers, including the Secretary of the Treasury, the Chairman of the JCS, and the Director of Central Intelligence, attended and participated. The agenda included regular briefings by the Director of Central Intelligence on worldwide developments affecting U.S. security, and consideration of the policy papers advanced by the Planning Board. The upshot of the discussions were recommendations to the President in the form of NSC Actions. The President, who participated in the discussion, normally endorsed the NSC Action, and the decision went down the hill for implementation to the Operations Coordinating Board. President Eisenhower created the Operations Coordinating Board (OCB) to follow up on all NSC decisions. The OCB met regularly on Wednesday afternoons at the Department of State, and was composed of the Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, Deputy Secretary of Defense, the Directors of CIA, USIA, and ICA, and the Special Assistants to the President for National Security Affairs and Security Operations Coordination. The OCB was the coordinating and implementing arm of the NSC for all aspects of the implementation of national security policy. NSC action papers were assigned to a team from the OCB for follow- up. More than 40 interagency working groups were established with experts for various countries and subjects. This 24-person staff of the OCB supported these working groups in which officials from various agencies met each other for the first time." As anyone case from reading this official history of the OCB and the NSC, the OCB was part of the NSC system and fulfilled the functions described above. While the organizational status of the OCB changed over the years, it's functions did not. It began as part of the NSC system and remained part of it right up to the time of Kennedy's dissolution of the OCB. Cutler's reference to the OCB being at the bottom of the NSC hill and the NSC itself at the top is very significant since it demonstrates that the OCB was part of the NSC system. After perusing all the evidence objectively, I have to conclude that your argument is quite weak and does not sustain your very strong claim that Corso lied. Col Corso served with distinction on a key agency that was part of the NSC system. Your description of him as a liar is a travesty and I have done my best to clearly demonstrate this to you. I hope that other members of this list can themselves reach an objective conclusion over the historical evidence that has been raised to support Col Corso's contention that he served on Eisenhower's NSC. I hope that the significance of Col Corso as a whistleblower is reconsidered on this list on the basis of the historical evidence that supports Corso's description of himself. Corso's credibility has been unfairly criticized by those not willing to objectively consider the historical evidence supporting Corso. I have made my case and will leave it to others to continue this thread if they wish.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:48:48 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:12:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker >From: Donald Johnson <donjohnson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:25:28 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:31:52 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:58:54 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case ><snip> >>Hi John, >>Thank you for your positive comments. While I would like to >>think the Khoury DNA evidence is "the smoking gun", it is not >>that yet. If the data can be replicated in multiple samples from >>multiple cases, then perhaps we can be more confident in making >>such assertions. However it is only one sample. Certainty, one >>way or the other, alien or not alien, will come from further >>evidence of this kind emerging from other cases. >>Therefore I hope that by putting "Hair of the Alien" out there >>for consideration it will alert abductees, researchers, >>investigators and the general public, to the potential of the >>DNA forensic and scientific approach. Getting evidence of this >>type will help us all get to the bottom of the alien reality >>question. For some of course there is no question. Abductees >>experience this reality and have a conviction driven by the >>realities they interact with. Skeptics reject the evidence, but >>perhaps the approach I am advocating will help add weight to the >>"critical mass" of compelling evidence. >>Your comments and your situation are the reason why I dedicate >>"Hair of the Alien" in the following way: "To all those who have >>been touched by the alien abduction phenomenon, I hope this work >>will help anchor your journey in reality, whatever that reality >>turns out to be." >Dear Bill, >I certainly will have to read your book as soon as possible. As >a board member of CUFOS I was aware of this important case back >in the 1990s, especially as it appeared in IUR, but I am glad >that you have followed through and provided more about it in >book form. Hi Donald, Yes, my book "Hair of the Alien" provides a very detailed followup of the original 1999 IUR "Strange Evidence". While a substantial part of the book is devoted to the Khoury case (including episodes from 1971, 1988, 1992 and 1996 in a complex alien abduction milieu) there is also extensive material from cases in diverse parts of the world - North America, South America, Africa, Asia, Europe etc.) >I have regarded this case with particular interest because it is >the strongest evidence yet that the UFO aliens are not >extraterrestrials but Homo sapiens masquerading as >extraterrestrials. I do believe they are "aliens", however, >because no known society has the technology displayed by the UFO >phenomenon. It does suggest that the "aliens" are much more >likely time travelers or visitors from a multiverse "parallel >Earth." I can see why the case might attract such speculations but I would be much more comfortable of a specific explanatory model with a great deal more data gathered from diverse cases. We could then see where the evidence points to, either as the DNA suggests in the Khoury sample, or otherwise. >I should point out that the Peter Khoury sexual encounter is not >an isolated case. In addition to the obvious parallels to the >Antonio Villas Boas case in 1957, I can think of two more cases >involving "Nordic Asiatics." I will run a query of UFOCAT >tonight and make a list of all similar cases I can find. I discuss the similar cases of Villas-Boas, Credo Mutwa and others. I would certainly look forward to any UFOCAT links to other cases that I may not have come across. >Donald Johnson, Ph.D. >Khon Kaen, Thailand Donald, given your Thai address, I wonder if you managed to make it to the Thai Naga light festival in October each year. In my book I mention the close encounter Mai Jain, author of the book "Red Dust", had with a mystery ball of light near the Chinese border with Burma in 1986) of Ma Jian. He confirmed to me in an interview I had with him via an interpreter in May 2003, that his book account was no literary metaphor for his sense of alienation with contemporary China. It was a real experience with a ball of light about the size of a rockmelon. A few hundred kilometres to the south on the Mekong River bordering Laos with Thailand every year with the full moon in October the Thais celebrate the tradition of mystical fire serpents with the Naga lights display as part of the Bang Fai Phaya Nark festival. Every year either through local assistance, act of nature or via more mystical and paranormal bonds, the Naga lights appear, like small fireball projectiles, apparently emerging from the river. By coincidence as I was flying back from China during October 2002 the airline onboard news service was describing the huge tourist influx and the successful return of the lights. Back in Australia a Thai friend regaled me with the latest Thai box office hit "Mekong Full Moon Party", which played on the mystery lights and the hold it had on the locals - hoax or real. Best wishes,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Nuclear Space Secrecy From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:46:45 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:14:09 -0400 Subject: Nuclear Space Secrecy NUCLEAR SPACE SECRECY "If secrecy on nuclear space projects made no sense a year ago... it makes even less sense in the world of today," according to an editorial in that appeared in the journal Nucleonics -- in 1964. See "Nuclear Space Secrecy - An Outdated Policy," Nucleonics, March 1964:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:28:44 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:17:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:00:51 -0500 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:31:19 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:09:02 +1000 >>>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>What I am arguing for is that the forensic scientific approach >>>should be a key part of our investigative arsenal in examining >>>abduction cases. Raising the awareness of investigators, >>>experiencers and the general public to these possibilities, is, >>>I believe, very important and worthwhile. It will help us >>>determine fact from fiction and will help anchor our >>>speculations in some possible facts. For those reasons alone I >>>believe "Hair of the Alien" is worthy of consideration. >>I wholeheartedly agree with you when it comes to wanting to see >>a forensic approach when investigating such cases. I, too, have >>been arguing for this exact approach (see the section >>'Ufologists as Criminalists?' on page 54 of my article in the >>MUFON Canadian UFO Proceedings, Dartmouth, NS - September 18, >>2004). >>Locards's Transference Principle (also known as Locard's >>Exchange Principle), which says that the perpetrator always (a) >>leaves something behind at, and (b) always takes something away >>from, the scene of the incident, I believe, is something that >>applies in such cases as we have been discussing here. I believe >>that Edmond Locard's principle of cross-contamination applies >>when the phenomenon interacts with us and that it always leaves >>something of itself behind - we just have to be particularly >>assiduous enough in finding and analyzing it. >Nonsense. You are presupposing, misqualifying, and >anthropomorphizing again. I'll bet Edmond Locard was not >remotely thinking about alien traces beyond the scope of your >pompous assiduousness, and you dissemble, Sir, to suggest that >he has. I'm reminded of the ant... crawled out, even arduously >and bravely, to the end of the picayune bottom twig it's found >itself upon to believe that it has scaled the tallest sequoia >tree and _understands_ the whole of the forest. Afred, I think you are inappropriately harsh in your criticism of Eugene's enthusiastic embrace of the forensic approach, and by default, of my call for a forensic scientific take on alien abductions. I don't agree that we should just accept that whatever is going on with alien abductions is so unknowable and beyond our ken, that we therefore should not try any approach that helps illuminate what goes on. Here is what I had to say in this context in the introduction to my new book "Hair of the Alien": "One of the great pioneers of scientific detection, or forensic science, was Dr. Edmond Locard. He is perhaps best remembered for the basic principle behind all of forensic science: every contact leaves a trace. While Locard clearly had in mind crime committed by human felons, the application of the principle in this very controversial area is of critical significance.[i] "If alien abductions really occur in the manner described by thousands of people around the world, then at the very least a "crime" against the sovereignty of human kind is being perpetrated. Most of the claims of alien abduction describe situations that are clearly against the will of the individuals involved. Thus the "crime" interpretation and the forensic approach it inspires are well founded. But beyond the striking biological perspective is a much broader and complex dimension to the forensic approach. As in classic crime scene investigations, the evidence for the reality of abduction claims can come from diverse avenues, such as the biological, physical, intuitive, and from just plain commonsense. There is also a cautionary element to forensic investigations; they require considerable care. Even while looking for traces of alien "contact," we must carefully examine the impact of the "contact" that comes with the intrusions of researchers, investigators, and other participants into these bizarre situations. Their involvement can often give a less than satisfactory or reliable dimension to the more prosaic senses of "contact" with possible alien realities. Not every contact leaves a reliable trace. Every aspect needs to be carefully considered. Beyond these cautionary elements, the idea of a "contact" resonates powerfully with the otherworldly implications of alien abduction experiences. "Here then is a factual account of a series of strange events that suggests a convergence of C.S.I.: Crime Scene Investigation[ii] and The X-Files.[iii] But this is not fiction. It represents a powerful case for the forensic and scientific approach to the alien abduction experience. At its heart is an extraordinary event steeped in the bizarre and the unusual, an investigation anchored in a forensic scientific perspective, and an odyssey that will yield some remarkable speculations and new viewpoints on what clearly is one of the great mysteries of our time." ---------------------------------------------------------------- [i] For an interesting discussion of Locard's principle see the prologue of Dr. Zakaria Erzinclioglu's book Every Contact leaves a trace. [ii] For some insight into the real science of forensics reflected in TV shows like CSI see for example The Forensic Science of C.S.I. by Katherine Ramsland (2001). Popular books on forensic science include Every contact leaves a trace by Dr. Zakaria Erzinclioglu (2000), Hidden Evidence by David Owen (2000), Crime Scene by Richard Platt (2003), The Encyclopedia of Forensic Science by Brian Lane (1992). [iii] The X-Files has generated a number of books focusing on the "science" behind the show. The best of these is by the science advisor to the show, Dr. Anne Simon, The Real Science Behind the X-Files (1999). Another two are The Science of the X- Files by Jeanne Cavelos (1998) and the same title by Michael White (1996). Before having a go at me you might want to acquaint yourself with the case I make for such an approach in "Hair of the Alien". >Tirelessly, you continue to use a carving tool as a walking >staff and I'm sure you're enough of a 'scientist' to realize >what your results can be expected to be as a result of misused >implements in relation to data outside your experience. Your >method presupposes a common human criminal with an intelligence >somewhere on the left half of the Bell curve who leaves a nose >hair, takes a trophy, and plays by _your_ conjectured rules. As >Einstein is to have pointed out to 'give 'em Hell' Harry Truman >when Truman was of a mind to try to shoot down UFOs buzzing the >District of Columbia in 1952... "If they can get _here_...," I >paraphrase, " they can take care of themselves." While you are targetting this discourse at Eugene, I'll still argue for the utility of the broad methodology of forensic & scientific examinations of abduction claims. >>If enough investigators processed an 'abduction scene' in the >>same manner as a 'crime scene' is processed - that is, go >>through it with a fine-toothed comb - then I believe we would >>find a lot more pieces of evidence that support the reality of >>the alleged interaction, particularly if the incident is of the >>nature of 'beings' in a person's bedroom. My APEG team has looked into 5 diverse cases to date. Right now I would call the score card as 1 out of 5, the one being the Khoury case, which I believe has yielded intriguing data, which of course you can chose to ignore or examine as you see fit. The other 4 cases which I refer to more briefly in the book are (1) the Californian "alien claw" case, which rather more complex and novel DNA work was required to give a definitative ID as a snail/mollusk. This work was done in conjunction with NIDS. (2) a "hair" case from Queensland allegedly from a grotesque alien creature, which failed to yield DNA beyond external contamination. Indeed we concluded it wasn't a worthwhile sample. (3) a hair sample from a complex abduction milieu from the mid north coast of New South Wales, in which I felt the "chain of evidence" was broken. Our preliminary DNA assessment yielded only normal caucasian consensus DNA, which closely approximated controls we had on this incident. (4) the stained dress worn Betty Hill in her classic 1961 abduction encounter. Phyllis Bundinger did excellent work on the dress which suggested DNA might be worthwhile. With her support we undertook DNA work which, from my point of view, yielded a prosaic array of DNA sequences, including confirmation of Barney Hill's Ethopian ancestary and that much of the stain seemed due to the blood of a local spider. In each of these cases there are clear points of value for examination in UFO research that get into areas of context, chain of evidence, rigorous investigations, etc. The one thing that the forensic DNA mediated approach offers is that we can have certainty rather than wild speculation and theorising where we have legitimate samples and good methodology. >How's the air out that twig? >>I don't think the >>intelligence behind the phenomenon enters and leaves the point >>of interaction while completely violating Locard's principle. > >Of course not, given the assumptions blithely made here. Which >assumptions? That these 'visitors' are unaware of a forensic >principle we've only uncovered in the last 100 years and >change... that mainstream science is remotely interested in the >investigation that would require them to re-think cherished >scientific canards they thought rock solid, that mainstream >science would risk offending the corporate masters slopping >their trough... that the "intelligence behind the phenomenon" >can be outwitted by a mainstream science given to mistaking >miles for meters on significant occasion... that the >"intelligence behind the phenomenon" would be tricked into your >test tube at all... et al. Again, you doth protest too much .... If we examine the UFO evidence there are numerous examples of things we might interprete as the result of less than perfect UFOs & aliens - UFO "crashes"! if we accept if any of them are real; the numerous accounts of poor wardrobe management of returned abductees; cases that refer to abductee's being left at the wrong house; the teleportation "mistake" I alluded to near NW Cape in 1967 in a earlier post to this thread; mistakes, carelessness, contempt, too much of a hurry keeping up with too many abductions, etc, whatever, but your absolute certainty, you seem insistent on flaying Eugene, other researchers and the whole scientific enterprise, with, is poorly sustain by the evidence. Given your attitude, there is absolutely no point in science looking at anything in this subject, because we are too imperfect and they are way too perfect and beyond us. Time to pack up our investigative tools, its too much for us and we don't have a hope ... I don't think so. There is a considerable body of evidence out there, gathered by researchers around the world which argues powerful that there is a physically real dimension to the UFO phenomenon. I suspect there is a real biological dimension to the alien abduction phenomenon, and it doesn't all seem ours. >>Clearly, if the Khoury case is legitimate, it doesn't. >Clearly? Call it any way you want - accidental or deliberate - the evidence was recovered. One could argue all sorts of modus operandi here - did the "alien" women leave the hair on Peter deliberately? Irrespective of ones perference, be it prosaic, conspiratorial or exotic, you need to reconcile the resultant DNA data, the full detail of the case, and our methodology with your scenario. >>This case >>may be showing us that the intelligence behind the phenomenon, >>despite its sophistication, is subject to Locard's Exchange >>Principle and does contaminate the scene, although in most cases >>the contamination is not as obvious as a hair wrapped in the >>foreskin of the person at the center of the event. >And not near as attractively and distractingly salacious, either. Again, not much of a point, since even among our earliest abduction cases, such as Antonio Villas-Boas, and certainly among many in recent decades, "attractively and distractingly salacious" elements occur. We cabn be puritancial or ignore them as sexual fantasies etc, even in the face of compelling witness testimony and evidence. Dismissial of such cases as fantasy, psychological, psyops, hoaxing, etc, often is not justified on the facts. >>If we are waiting to secure evidence in the nature of a 'jacket' >>inadvertently left on the bed or an anal probe accidently left >>on the nightstand then I think we're going to be waiting >>forever. >I remarked earlier about persons actually having experience with >anal probes, Sir. These are not near so cavalier regarding their >reference and jackets don't figure into the literature anywhere >enough to provoke a look-out for them. Maybe you were just >trying to be cute. >>Using available forensic technology and techniques to >>detect the perhaps minute cross-contamination of the scene that >>may be occurring could possibly secure enough evidence to show >>something is really happening - even if detectable cross- >>contamination occurs in only a percentage of cases. (It probably >>occurs in all cases but often could be beyond our current >>abilities to detect.) >What you so casually allude to here is a full scale, honestly >considered, very well funded Manhattan Project type >investigation that will not be achieved, or called for, with a >few of the fringe afficiado badly sealing drug-store Q-tips into >sandwich bags. I suspect you know that only too well... and are >comfortable, then, with an endorsement of it. Clearly such efforts need to be done rigorously with well establish protocols, and I'm not talking Manhattan Project type epic scale projects. There is so much that can be down with limited resources, or via establishing links with the scientific community or specialists in the area, which I have done. If I can do it, I'm sure others can. By putting "Hair of the Alien" out there for debate and consideration, I am hoping others will start thinking along these lines. Sounds like Afred might not be a taker, but Eugene and others, with obvious reference to reality checks and limitations, should not be dissauded by arguments that it is all a waste of time. >>I concur as well that the label is not the important point but I >>do get uneasy with the label 'alien' as this has strong >>connotations of 'extraterrestrial' in this field, despite the >>fact that the word can refer to human beings, as in 'illegal >>alien' being used to describe a person in a country without >>authorization. >To the contrary, Mr. Frison. I submit that this and other labels >are _very_ important to you or what would be your label for >someone like myself? >>Without a doubt, the 'hair' is fascinating, >>intriguing, and anomalous. >And weird, intellectually ephemeral, and non-conclusive... >whatever it is, or is not, found to actually _be_. That a >presupposing and scientistic (sic) ideologue such as yourself >would spin wheels of endorsement on it (even presuming >perspicacity of the work) is not that surprising... it's no >endorcement. I'm not asking for endorsement, but I am asking for a bit more open mindness to consider possible strategies for illuminating the UFO alien abduction controversy. Debate all you like with rhetoric unbond, but I would prefer to proactively and directly examine the UFO phenomenon and the alien abduction experience with science as a helpful resource, rather than blunder abound with no firm anchor points. >I'm reminded of the otherwise goodhearted born again Christian >willing to sign on to W's now galloping corporatism and looming >fascism because he looks earnest when he reports that he talks >to God... and that God talks back. Moreover, it's not _just_ >good science that is required for closure on this subject. There >has always been good science, Mr. Frison. What did it get Dr. >James McDonald? Good science, all by itself, is not the panacea >you would pretend it to be. Clearly, but science should by our ally, utilised in many diverse ways as part of our approach to this complex subject. ................ >The real issue is your ready willingness to label and prejudge >the issue (and those interested in real closure on it) given an >evidentiary standpoint already well larded with facts and >statistics and physical evidence ... but which you overlook in >favor of the salacious bizarre... and I say that with all >respect to the honor and effort of the men involved with the >exercise you allude to and do not presuppose otherwise, myself, >on its validity or value at all. Win, lose, or draw on the >outcome of their presumed honorable effort... it won't matter. While I see a steady undercurrent of friction here between two parties here at least you are acknowledge work may have been done that might, or might be worth considering. I still find it strange that "blow torch" reactions are needed to hose down obvious enthusiasm. Gosh, if we got excited and focused and learnt to work to together instead of resorting to verbal warfare too often, we might actually make some progress in understanding this controversial but fascinating field. >Consider: >Richard Hall has produced the... single work... that should be >necessary to justify a Manhattan Project for UFOs, in some 650 >pages, hundreds of references, and thousands of citations. "The >UFO Evidence - A Thirty Year Report..." stands monumentally >among other studies of equal worth... to no avail. The "Project" >is not forthcoming... I agree that Richard Hall's "UFO Evidence" is an excellent reference for the physical reality of the phenomenon. >And... it's not loons and Whackos precluding the aforementioned >"Project," as you well know, Mr. Frison... it is the >intellectual cowardice of those in a position to know better, >the institutional bigotry of agencies charged with our elevation >and improvement, and the jealous obstinacy of arrogant >individuals clinging to the notion that Humanity is at the >center of the universe and that the universe itself was created >for the benefit of same... I would suspect that they... and >you... have that _exactly_ backwards..... While your arguments might have some basis, the fact that I can enlist some scientists to help in this work to encourage another potential scientific focus is of some merit, as far as I am concerned. While progress is slow it is not in my mind a terminal enterprise. Today's "invisible colleges" may one day develop into something with more substantial momentum of possibly paradigm shifting proportions, despite the rather dismaying antognistic discourse along the way.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Contactee Taboo From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:36:57 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:18:54 -0400 Subject: Contactee Taboo Something that has been troubling me for a while is the current lack of interest in the contactees of the 1950s and 60s era. In the preface of the book, George Adamski - The Untold Story, it states "One almost trembles at the thought of even mentioning Adamski, for to do so nowadays is considered very bad form in ufological circles because everybody 'knows' he was a fraud." It goes on to say that "I notice too, all over the world, that alleged UFO percipients have continued to tell contactee stories that are far, far wilder and far more fantastic than anything Adamski ever said, and yet on the whole, these percipients seem to be listened to... almost never do they seem to be greeted with the sort of obloquy that was heaped on Adamski." That was written in 1983. I think it's important that the contactees be re-examined now we have the advantage of 50 years of hindsight to call on. Added to this, the contactees are the only people who offer any real insights to other civilizations, their lifestyles and their intentions. Abductees tell us far less. What I don't understand is why contactees have been so consistently persecuted, ridiculed, criticised, abused and ignored. Only people who were vindicated by history have typically received so much adverse attention. I can understand why Adamski was given such a hard time in his day as he made statements that ETs were from Mars, Venus and Jupiter and any "smart" person knew that life could not exist on those planets. But given that today we understand ET technology is far in advance of our own and our own science has progressed, albeit ever so slightly, surely such things need to be reconsidered. My concern is that I am now coming across the next generation of UFO interested people here in Australia who are not afforded the knowledge of these contactees and what they had to offer, and still do. I ask, have you heard of George Adamski, George Hunt Williamson, Daniel Fry etc? 9 times out of 10 they say no. I can't help but feel they are getting an unbalanced view of the UFO phenomena and this is not the sort of legacy I want to leave. To those who are going to reply that contactees were deluded, charlatans or hoaxers, I would reply that a careful study of these people as individuals, that goes far beyond the "facts" of their cases, will reveal there are good reasons for taking a closer look at what they had to offer. That discussion may be for another email. My other point is that what you can read about these contactees is only a portion of what still remains in someones archives somewhere. What they said cannot be taken out of context of their lives either, which is a bad and terribly annoying habit I've noticed many modern day researchers apply to abduction cases. The "whole" person needs to be studied in the context of their life. Interestingly, in the epilogue of "George Adamski The Untold Story", Lou Zinsstag, co-author with Timothy Good, states "I suffered, accordingly, from the frustrating knowledge of the many unjust, even vicious attacks George Adamski had to endure in the name of the cause he stood for. But I also suffered even more from the possibility that I myself might have been wrong in my judgement of his activities in the last years of his life. With the publication of this book I have succeeded in easing my conscience, if nothing else. I feel that, in the case of Adamski, I have been able to do something in the cause of my beloved blindfolded idol, Justitia, in moulding into shape again the distorted image of an important, secretive personality and a lovable friend. Contemplating Adamski's work after such a time and from an objective point of view, it looks as if his endeavours as well as his dedication were almost lost: his achievements seem almost nil. His dream for mankind's joyful acceptance of human connections in the cosmos did not materialize in his lifetime. But there is no doubt in the minds of his friends that he was indeed a man with a mission, assigned to carry out a plan put up by a group of friendly and advanced people from outside Earth. For many years he and his space friends must have hoped for the lifting of the veil of secrecy, but in vain. Officially, the message was denied credence and still is, much to the relief of those who have reasons to fear the perception of new horizons - and new energy sources! Of course, the many official denials greatly helped to create an atmosphere of ridicule which in consequence led to the establishment of the loudest scoffer as the smartest guy. ....Even though the flow of contact stories has never stopped since the Forties, it cannot be denied that their tone has changed a great deal since Adamski died. Instead of trying to communicate with us in a friendly way, we now have to deal with strange-looking aliens who seem to know how to make good use of us as a convenient variety of guinea-pig for their research work, especially since they have discovered how easily many of us can be hypnotized. Those faint signs of a new dawn on our horizon, perceived and acted on not only by Adamski, have almost disappeared. There is no longer any reason for these friendly groups to wait endlessly in the wings for a sign of welcome on the stage. And they do not need us, to be sure. Yet I do not think that all of them have left; some may still be around, undetected - and depressingly silent. After half a lifetime's work with George Adamski, I want to point out how silly it can be to discard a man's story just for its strangeness, a man's photograph for its novelty, a man's description for its unintelligibility. Man is by nature a searcher. Is it not better to make the best of what Adamski has left us in his admittedly often cryptic material? Maybe we shall discover new sources of propulsion - for our brain cells if
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 03:04:58 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:21:17 -0400 Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet - Hatch >From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:58:06 -0500 >Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 03:45:15 -0700 >>Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet >>>>Dolores Beasley Headquarters, Washington July 29, 2005 >><snip> >>>>NASA SCIENTISTS DISCOVER TENTH PLANET >>>Hello List hope you are well one and all, Nibiru, The Moon, >>>The Dinosaurs? >>>Well List what are your thoughts, what should we expect is >>>NIBIRU coming or isn't it? >>In a word, no. 'Planet' 2003 UB313 would be a very poor choice >>for Nibiru. Its orbital period is yet to be worked out, but is >>something like hundreds of years instead of thousands. >>UB313 is now 3 times further out than Pluto. Scientists estimate >>a surface temperature of 30 Kelvins or minus 405 degrees >>Fahrenheit, far colder than needed to not only liquefy air >>(oxygen, nitrogen etc.) but to freeze it solid. >Hello Larry. >How do Nibiruan supporters come to reason that a planet so >distant from our sun could possibly support life ? Beats the heck out of me. I don't even try to argue with anyone that nuts. >The planet Venus is closer to the sun therefore hotter, while >Mars further out is therefore colder. >What else am I missing, is Nibiru an artificial Satellite ? Nibiru is a fiction. The author is Zechariah Sitchin. >How come Nasa withheld the new outer planet scenario for two >years when it is always immediately made known to the public >when one more new planet of 100 Jupiter type planets orbits a >distant star ? My understanding is that an American team of astronomers (not NASA) withheld the discovery until they could get some orbital elements (period, coordinates etc.) to consolidate their claims. A Spanish team that also (or later) made the same discovery, was about to go public, so the Americans opened up with it. >>I'm sure any Nibiruans would find this highly distressing. >>At its closest approach to Earth's orbit, believed to be some >>280 years from now, it will still be about 38 astronomical units >>from the Sun, i.e. 38 times as far from the Sun as the Earth is >>on average. >http://xfacts.com/x2.htm >Now here we have the planet Venus surrounded by stars? I doubt. >I count nine planets, possibly two more moons and then there's a >marking in the middle of the tablet way over to the right >center, is this 'Planet' 2003 UB313 or Nibiru ? That page is put up by the 'Sitchinites' if you will. The '4500 year old tablet', assuming it isn't bogus and that's what you mean, could signify anything. To me it looks like the Sun, surrounded by planets, stars, what have you. Virtually all of the ancients thought the Earth was flat BTW, with astronomical objects fixed or traveling on rotating crystal spheres at relatively short distances. To argue from this to Sitchin's BS, and then to try and connect
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:27:53 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 12:14:47 -0400 Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet - Shell >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 03:04:58 -0700 >Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet >Virtually all of the ancients thought the Earth was flat BTW, >with astronomical objects fixed or traveling on rotating crystal >spheres at relatively short distances. I'm with you, Larry, on everything but this. The flat earth with crystal spheres was a dark ages concept. Many ancient
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: AVRO Disc - Richardson From: Geoff Richardson <geoff.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 13:46:58 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 12:29:09 -0400 Subject: Re: AVRO Disc - Richardson >From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:01:41 -0700 >Subject: AVRO Disc >In case you are wondering what the AVRO disc and the V173 look >like A video file of the AVRO Disc is available at: http://www.thewhyfiles.net/usa.htm Just click on the "speaker" icon (sorry - wrong type of icon)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 22:48:31 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 12:34:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:59:48 -0400 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:00:51 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>>To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:31:19 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:09:02 +1000 >>>>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>>What I am arguing for is that the forensic scientific approach >>>>should be a key part of our investigative arsenal in examining >>>>abduction cases. Raising the awareness of investigators, >>>>experiencers and the general public to these possibilities, is, >>>>I believe, very important and worthwhile. It will help us >>>>determine fact from fiction and will help anchor our >>>>speculations in some possible facts. For those reasons alone I >>>>believe "Hair of the Alien" is worthy of consideration. >>>I wholeheartedly agree with you when it comes to wanting to see >>>a forensic approach when investigating such cases. I, too, have >>>been arguing for this exact approach (see the section >>>'Ufologists as Criminalists?' on page 54 of my article in the >>>MUFON Canadian UFO Proceedings, Dartmouth, NS - September 18, >>>2004). >>>Locards's Transference Principle (also known as Locard's >>>Exchange Principle), which says that the perpetrator always (a) >>>leaves something behind at, and (b) always takes something away >>>from, the scene of the incident, I believe, is something that >>>applies in such cases as we have been discussing here. I believe >>>that Edmond Locard's principle of cross-contamination applies >>>when the phenomenon interacts with us and that it always leaves >>>something of itself behind - we just have to be particularly >>>assiduous enough in finding and analyzing it. >I have been calling for precisely this approach to abduction >investigations since day one. I am in complete agreement with >Eugene's suggested approach. The first time I 'came out' >publicly was in January 1995 (at the behest of Budd Hopkins) for >the NOVA segment on abduction. I naively thought that NOVA was >going to do some actual 'science reporting' and maybe even >conduct a few 'tests' of their own, as they have done on so many >other programs they have produced. I invited them to polygraph >me, to have me evaluated by a psychologist or psychiatrist of >their own choosing, I invited them into my home to interview my >family, friends, former employers etc. (in order to establish my >character and that I was telling the truth,) and I also invited >them to conduct _any_ kind of (non-destructive) testing they >wished on my house/home. I figured, maybe these 'things' leave >radiation traces, magnetic anomalies, whatever, behind. Sadly, >they had their own pre-approved 'agenda' and they never took me >up on my offer. >It has been my contention all along that the 'proof' everyone >has been seeking is 'in' the abductees. When I met and spoke >with Dr. Michio Kaku (when I attended the symposium in >Washington DC that was hosted by the Podesta-Mattoon/Sci-Fi >channel 'coalition') he told me, " They should be looking for >nano-technology in the blood and bodies of the abductees." He >told me that if such devices were to be found (using electron- >microscopy I would imagine) it would be 'proof positive' of the >intervention into human lives and affairs of an highly advanced >technological civilization. Hi John, This in intriguing point. Michio Kaku has been making some interesting comments on the UFO subject. At my web log (June 5, 2005): http://theozfiles.blogspot.com I have quoted this post, which should be of interest: In my forthcoming book "HAIR of the ALIEN - DNA and other Forensic Evidence of Alien Abduction" I focus on a DNA forensic approach to alien abduction evidence. While prominence is given to the Peter Khoury "alien hair" case from Sydney Australia, other cases and experiences from around the world are also examined. While the validity of this evidence will be debated, my primary focus is to promote a forensic scientific approach to examing the alien abduction controversy, concentrating on the DNA approach where compelling biological evidence is available. Part of this approach involves examining DNA for evidence of "non-Darwinian patterns", which might reflect extraterrestrial or intelligent influence - a sign of artificial evolution or intervention. The Anomaly Physical Evidence Group (APEG) have been examining this intriguing area focusing in part on unusual mutations, polymorphisms, our "junk" DNA (or perhaps more appropriately "regulatory" DNA) and other aspects. Some intriguing areas are being looked at. Professor Paul Davies of the Macquarie University based Australian Centre for Astrobiology has speculated that some sort of pattern (along the mathematical type of code described in Carl Sagan's novel (and the film) "Contact" might be encoded in our "junk DNA". While this sounds like science fiction, particularly if mathematical or symbolic codes are being sort, the idea is not as wild as it sounds. I briefly discussed this speculation with Paul Davies during a Macquarie University post graduate open day on campus on April 12 2005. He indicated his "junk DNA - ET evidence" speculations were meant to be serious. He felt the idea was no less serious than the idea of seeking out ET "radio signals" (i.e. SETI which he agreed had not delivered any credible evidence so far) so why not try something that is far easier to do and is potentially well within our current technological reach - searching for coded clues within our own DNA. I mentioned to him that this intersected with some work I had been focusing on and he expressed interest in seeing my book. Whether this develops beyond mere tokenism remains to be seen. I reflected on Paul Davies well known skepticism re UFOs in recent times, bringing up with him his friendship with the late Dr. Allen Hynek, author of the classic study "The UFO Experience - A scientific Enquiry" (1972) and originator of the term "Close Encounters of the Third Kind". Davies acknowledged that Hynek was a nice guy and that he had once stayed at his Chicago home. He felt that there was no one of Hynek's stature in the field of UFO research today. I said there were some interested researchers of note. Knowing he had endorsed Michio Kaku's new book "Parallel Worlds", I mentioned Kaku's interest in the UFO subject. He seemed unaware of this or skeptical of my statement, so I suggested he inform himself by watching the Peter Jennings' documentary "UFOs - Seeing is believing" which was airing on Australian television the following weekend end. I alerted Davies to Kaku's open endorsement and advocacy of serious investigation of UFOs, and said this was not the first time that Michio Kaku, "one of the world's finest science writers" (Davies own endorsement) and a world-renowned physicist, had made positive comments about the subject. I also indicated that Jennings' documentary also would show a positive presentation of part of the contribution his old friend Allen Hynek had made to the UFO subject. >Why none of this has been tried is beyond my ken. Eugene, you're >on the right track. 'If' this is a real, physical phenomenon, >then it is a foregone conclusion that 'some form' of evidence is >going by the boards simply because no one is looking for it! >>Nonsense. You are presupposing, misqualifying, and >>anthropomorphizing again. I'll bet Edmond Locard was not >>remotely thinking about alien traces beyond the scope of your >>pompous assiduousness, and you dissemble, Sir, to suggest that >>he has. I'm reminded of the ant... crawled out, even arduously >>and bravely, to the end of the picayune bottom twig it's found >>itself upon to believe that it has scaled the tallest sequoia >>tree and _understands_ the whole of the forest. >Alfred, you know I love you, man. And I know where you're coming >from, but... if we're ever going to turn up any 'hard evidence' >then we need to apply every 'proven' method we know of to test, >probe, prod, document, record the phenomena in any way we can. >At the moment, the 'tool of choice' admittedly faulted and >limited as it is, is the scientific method. We all know it's far >from perfect, but if results which can be replicated can be >tickled out of the evidence we do have, then I say we go for it. >Unless you have a better means of accomplishing this up your >sleeve, established scientific investigation methods and >protocols is all we have. >>>If enough investigators processed an 'abduction scene' in the >>>same manner as a 'crime scene' is processed - that is, go >>>through it with a fine-toothed comb - then I believe we would >>>find a lot more pieces of evidence that support the reality of >>>the alleged interaction, particularly if the incident is of the >>>nature of 'beings' in a person's bedroom. >Right on! I agree 100%. If nothing else, we'd have one hell of a >lot more answers than we do right now! I hope one day mainstream >academics will put their preconceptions on the side and actually >look into this phenomenon that has turned the lives of countless >thousands upside-down! >Bill Chalker is on the right track. Wish there were 10 more of >him out there. So do I - get more done, and maybe find more time on my hands :-) to pursue more gentlemanly activities
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:52:46 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:27:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Reynolds >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 20:45:14 EDT >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:33:37 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch <snip> >So we see a process of reworking and refining UFO disinformation >stories and fake documents, as well as passing off faked UFO >stories and documents into a UFO "rumor mill" (p. 102), so the >quality of the disinfo varies widely. This means some UFO disinfo >is poorly done and some is better done, always, there is never a >strict perfectionist standard applied which allows only 100% >perfect fabrications to be disseminated. >But again you assume they even cared. If it was a shotgun >approach of testing out various contacts and seeing what worked, >see what hogwash was swallowed by the UFO community and what >wouldn't fly, then it wouldn't matter what the files said >correctly or incorrectly about your activities, and it wouldn't >matter what you had or had not done on UFO's in a long time. A >disinformation "rumor mill" (p. 102) does not have exacting >recruitment standards! <snip> >You assume a high-powered high-priority operation with vast >resources where every aspect of the operation is meticulously >examined and investigated before every move. If in fact as I >have been able to reconstruct these disinfo ops on UFO's were >low-priority, low-level, minimally-funded, then they just didn't >bother with extensive background checks on every potential >contact, maybe just a minimal AFOSI file check, a DCII (Defense >Criminal Investigations Index) check, maybe skipping a NAC >(National Agency Check) since they don't want to constantly be >tipping off other agencies as to the identities of AFOSI >Confidential Informants. Brad: The work that you allot for disinfo agents is beyond the pale. Just as Dr. Salla's whistleblowers are probably trying to make a name for themselves (because of some cockeyed ego deficiency), isn't it possible that your disinfo agents are doing just the same; that is, these people aren't really disinfo agents, just persons who make up a story that they are operators for the government? Nick Redfern's people are either deluded, hoping to leave a kind legacy (as Corso seemed to do) or they are senile men and women who think they are a meaningful part of the American underbelly. Or they are persons who actually had access to the information they imparted to Nick Redfern. All the work you attribute to disinfo ops doesn't make sense. Why would the U.S. government expend so much effort to put ufologists (a lame lot in the public mind) on to things bogus? You are creating the same scenario for UFOs that was used for the Cold War and other government disonformation projects. But UFOs are not in the same category and if the government is truly
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 00:13:52 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:29:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 08:52:28 -0500 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:59:48 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:00:51 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case <snip> >>Alfred, you know I love you, man. And I know where you're coming >>from, but... if we're ever going to turn up any 'hard evidence' >>then we need to apply every 'proven' method we know of to test, >>probe, prod, document, record the phenomena in any way we can. >>At the moment, the 'tool of choice' admittedly faulted and >>limited as it is, is the scientific method. We all know it's far >>from perfect, but if results which can be replicated can be >>tickled out of the evidence we do have, then I say we go for it. >>Unless you have a better means of accomplishing this up your >>sleeve, established scientific investigation methods and >>protocols is all we have. ><snip> >Hey John; >In principle, we couldn't be more in agreement. My concern stems >from finding out the principal's 'penis' is involved and that >the penis in question has a 'foreskin' manipulated by drop-dead >gorgeous alien of enigmatic determinacy... the distraction that >the salaciousness unfortunately entails... or how this is >different (outside of physical evidence allegedly left behind) >from lounge singers laying down with alien lizards of some years >ago... none of us looked very hard for trace evidence on her. >My suspicion is that 'some' would key on a case like this >(legitimate or not), perhaps make it more important than it >should be (?), but be ready to pounce with the same kind of >criticism that I am suggesting here so as to discredit all of >ufology on the strength of one dodgy case. >In Up-Tight & Sex Shy America, those whom the gods would destroy >they first make reference to their genitals? Consider: It seems >to me that perhaps all the work should have been done on this >_before_ there were... jeez... dozens of web pages devoted to >it, is all. >No disrespect to persons trying to follow the data in a service >to real science is remotely suggested... nor is there any >suggested for the persons closely involved with this case. >It just seems to me that this is not the best trace case to hang >a hat (or a towel) on... _even_ given that a report comes back >that the hank of hair is "not of this Earth", which, in our >twisted sexual sensibilities, would make the report even _more_ >discreditable. That finding would be appealed, and the appeal >appealed, until it joined the ranks of all the other >'inconclusives' and was forgotten... whatever is found out... >whatever the truth was. > >A "Manhattan Project", is needed and is not forthcoming when we >continue to respect the sensibilities of a 'mainstream' that >does not respect our sensibilities in turn. And it does not. If >it did? Richard Hall, and yourself to a degree, would be carried >around on three-cornered velvet cushions. Alfred, Maybe you can break away from your inhibitions, concerns, cynicisms etc and actually consider the detail of the things your are critiquing. The Khoury case is a case study - an example of an alternative approach anchored in science & DNA forensics. It is the perspective and the approach I am advocating. Sorry Alfred you seem to be writing like someone whose mind is made up and who doesn't want to dirty their hands with certain realities in field investigation and case work. I have always anticipated criticism like this which throws around erotic cliches and innuendos. It does little to dissaude me from continuing to advocate a scientific and forensic focus on the alien abduction experience. Suggesting that we flooded the internet with dozens of web pages before doing the work is plain wrong. We cautiously did the extended phase one work and reported it in IUR in 1999 because we felt there was something worth reporting. I can say from the reception that there was considerable support. We did not flood the net with reports. However we were encouraged to procede to the next phase, which until now in my book "Hair of the Alien", we reported only in summary form. You criticism seems rather hallow. We even get criticised for not having data out there, despite having some there as stated since 1999. You are perfectly entitled to your attitudes, but I'm certain they won't be influencing my research priorities or the way I document them. Once again I suggest your suggestion of needing a "Manhattan project" is over the top. What is needed is consideration and utlisation of scientifically based methodologies to support commonsense approaches. Repeating my previous post, "while your arguments might have some basis, the fact that I can enlist some scientists to help in this work to encourage another potential scientific focus is of some merit, as far as I am concerned. While progress is slow it is not in my mind a terminal enterprise. Today's "invisible colleges" may one day develop into something with more substantial momentum of possibly paradigm shifting proportions, despite the rather dismaying antognistic discourse along the way."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - Holman From: Brett Holman <bholman.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 00:20:18 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:30:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - Holman >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:26:22 -0500 >Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars >Anyone who doubts that an extreme bias against life on Mars >pervades the planetary science community should read Barry >DiGregorio's book, _Mars the Living Planet_. The book gives a >detailed account of what happened to the Dr. Gil Levin, >principal investigator for the Labeled Release experiment, for >his refusal to accept the official conclusion that his LR >experiment had detected an inorganic chemical reaction and not >signs of life. This was not a genteel disagreement among >scholars. Levin likened his experience to being treated like a >"non-person" as were political dissidents in the Soviet Union. Bitterness and hyperbole are no guarantors of truth. Maybe he's right about the interpretation of the labelled release! But the thing is, he can't prove it. He can be as bitter as he likes, but he'll have to await the verdict of history. Unfortunately, science is like that sometimes, just ask Alfred Wegener. (And Levin isn't helping his case by opposing a Mars sample return mission - on safety grounds - we'd have all the evidence we needed then, one way or the other.) >It would have been understandable if NASA really had erred on >the side of caution, as you say. They could have just announced >the fact that the LR results satisfied all of the previously >agreed-upon criteria for life, and then added that they were >unwilling to conclude on that basis that life had really been >detected. But it didn't - when more nutrient was added (ie after the initial amount), the amount of labelled gas released *decreased*. That is not what was expected from life. And of course, it ignores the failures of the other 2 experiments to get positive results compared with their control samples, as well as the failure of the GCMS to find *any* organic material, which is the real killer. There's no way the labelled release results can be called anything other than intriguing. >They could have taken the reasonable position that >additional experiments carried by _future_ Mars probes were >needed to decide whether the Viking results were really >indications of life or merely inorganic chemical reactions of >the sort that were proposed. That certainly would be what they >would have done if there were any truth to the old argument that >NASA would "love" to find life on Mars because it would be good >for their budget. Well, that's assuming that scientists are fundamentally dishonest and only conclude whatever nets them the most money. Since they didn't do this, you further seem to assume they are dishonest but have some (unspecified) reason to deny the possibility of life on Mars. What reason do you think they can have? Here's another possibility... call me naive, but maybe they honestly think that the best interpretation of the Viking labelled release experiment is that it wasn't caused by life! I find it hard to believe that somebody like Carl Sagan - who yearned his entire life to find extraterrestrial life - would _not_ give every possible benefit of the doubt to Levin's interpretation. And according to Keay Davidson's biography of Sagan, he did. With so many biases in favour of wanting to find life (and in part I'm speaking from personal experience here), I have to assign heavy weight to the fact that so many scientists have concluded that it hasn't yet been found. The evidence just isn't there. >The Viking results gave them a (literally) >golden opportunity for a bigger budget for Mars exploration. Golden opportunity? Viking came at the end of the end of the first era of planetary exploration for NASA, which launched no space probes to the planets between the late 1970s and the late 1980s. NASA's budget was mainly eaten up by Shuttle operations. There was no golden opportunity. >But no Mars probe after Viking and up to the present time has >carried any biology experiments. So given the extreme bias you claim exists against even performing any biology experiments, why is the next NASA Mars lander (due for launch in 2007) going to do just that? http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/science/objectives.php Not to forget the Mars Science Laboratory (2009 launch): http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/future/msl.html The Viking experiments were a naive first attempt to find life. What the confusing results showed was that we don't understand Martian chemistry and geology well enough to be able to detect even Earth-like life with confidence, let alone anything stranger. So instead of trying another series of ill-informed tests, NASA is undertaking a much more methodical research program. Let's find the water first, let's study Martian chemistry and geology first, then we will be in a better position to know life if we see it. I will say this though - it does seem puzzling that there's apparently been no effort to find the "superoxides", other than telescopic searches for H2O2 (which failed). It's certainly one
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 00:36:40 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:33:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Chalker >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:19:54 -0400 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 11:57:14 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:59:48 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:00:51 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>>>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>>>>To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:31:19 -0300 >>>>>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>Hi Alfred, Eugene, >>>>>If enough investigators processed an 'abduction scene' in the >>>>>same manner as a 'crime scene' is processed - that is, go >>>>>through it with a fine-toothed comb - then I believe we would >>>>>find a lot more pieces of evidence that support the reality of >>>>>the alleged interaction, particularly if the incident is of the >>>>>nature of 'beings' in a person's bedroom. >>>Right on! I agree 100%. If nothing else, we'd have one hell of a >>>lot more answers than we do right now! I hope one day mainstream >>>academics will put their preconceptions on the side and actually >>>look into this phenomenon that has turned the lives of countless >>>thousands upside-down! >>>Bill Chalker is on the right track. Wish there were 10 more of >>>him out there. You have no clue as to how badly I want out of >>>all this public crap and to simply get back to my life. Until an >>>'answer' is found, here we all are. I remain to counter the >>>drivel of the arm-chair skepti-bunkers whose public >>>proclamations do more to retard progress than anyone, anything, >>>else. >Hi Mike, >You wrote: >>Bill Chalker's work is one of the "brightest" and most hopeful >>things I've seen in reviewing the work related to studying UFOs. >There are several others who rarely get credit for the wonderful >work they have done. Dr. Aphrodite Clamar is one such >individual. Dr. Clamar is a New York City-based psychologist >who examined, evaluated and tested many abductees. She worked >closely with Budd Hopkins for many years. The female >psychologist character in Whitley Strieber's 'Communion' is >based on her. >Beginning in the late 80's and extending well into the 90's, >Dr. Clamar performed much of the pioneering work that eventually >helped to establish the fact that the 'abductees' she was >working with showed _no_signs_ of psychopathology. Dr. Mack and >others later confirmed her findings, via their own studies and >investigations. >One other unsung hero is Dr. Stuart Apelle of Cornell >University. He drafted a set of excellent protocols and >guidelines that therapists, other mental health and health care >professionals could use if, or when, confronted with someone >reporting UFO abductions. As far as I know, the protocols are >not very well known, nor have they ever been adopted by the >professionals they were intended for. It's a shame really. >So much excellent, high caliber work has been done, but so few >know about it. Or about the truly courageous individuals who >roll up their sleeves and do the work in spite of formidable >social and professional stigmatisation. It's nothing short of >heroic. >>Do you see any new investigative efforts in the near future? >Dr. Mark Rodighier and others at CUFOS have been conducting an >abduction study. The results of their study have been anticipated >for what feels like ages now. Although, if the abductions have >stopped, as some abductees are reporting, it might become harder >to gather new physical evidence for analysis! >>(i.e. that would succeed the work of Budd Hopkins and David >>Jacobs here in the United States). Who will take the baton from >>them? >In the States, I'd say Mark Rodighier & Co. at CUFOS as I >mentioned earlier. >I'm convinced that this has to be a multi-disciplinary and >international effort, if it is ever to bear fruit. A few >individuals isolated, working on their own, and with only their >own personal resources to pay for it all, are never going to >produce the kind of answers we needed - yesterday. I think folks >like Bill Chalker and the current investigation crew at CUFOS >_are_ the direction any future abduction research 'should' take. >Budd Hopkins, David Jacobs, Dr. John Mack and Ray Fowler are the >pioneers. The ones who first took on the job and expense of >looking into some of these cases. They reported their findings >to the public via their books and lectures which is/was okay - >to a point. >They have done their job well. The public awareness has been >raised. >The next natural/logical step is to apply the kind of rigorous >investigating and testing that Chalker, Rodighier and others are >currently engaged in. >The basic problem with establishing a scientific approach to >abduction reports has more to do with $$s than it does finding >researchers or academics who are willing to do it. Science costs >money. Tests, materials and the time of labs and professionals >is expensive. Unfortunately, ufology is cash poor - FUFOR >included. The chances of any real concerted scientific testing >and investigation into reports of UFO occupant initiated >abduction is virtually slim to none. John, Thanks for making these important points. There are many good people doing find work, but it seems a minority, albeit slowly growing. Yes such work does cost money, but my experience suggests there are people who are willing to support researchers who demostrate a capacity to do solid work. However, there are limitations, and it means that researchers need to very carefully assess potential cases and evidence. Sometimes the experiencers, caught up in such intensive investigations and research, baulk at everything being studied intensely. It is a challenging gauntlet, but an important one, because situations that pass through that process form a strong basis and anchor point to build on, in trying to understand the realities involved in this complex phenomenon. If we don't build on this approach, I agree that your closing picture will prevail, and the subject will continue to wallow in its uncertainies, always on the fringe, never in mainstream reality, subject to whatever manifestations the phenomenon continues to unleash our way.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:39:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:35:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <UFOUpdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:36:57 +1000 >Subject: Contactee Taboo <snip> >What I don't understand is why contactees have been so >consistently persecuted, ridiculed, criticised, abused and >ignored. Only people who were vindicated by history have >typically received so much adverse attention. <snip> >Sheryl Sheryl: History is replete with utopianists, and Adamski, that colorful spinner of space tales, was one also -- just with a spin that resonated with the 1950s mind-set of those who worried about atomic perdition. When a guy talks about life on Venus or the other side of the Moon and his obserations are contrary to fact, one has to eschew him. The message Adamski presented is nice, comforting and all, not unlike that of that Jesus fellow (and look what happened to him). Adamski was fun, but to hope for a renewed interest in his patently absurd revelations goes against the sophistication that pretends to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:57:16 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:37:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Lehmberg >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:28:44 +1000 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:00:51 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>>To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:31:19 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>>>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:09:02 +1000 >>>>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case <snip> >While your arguments might have some basis, the fact that I can >enlist some scientists to help in this work to encourage another >potential scientific focus is of some merit, as far as I am >concerned. While progress is slow it is not in my mind a >terminal enterprise. Today's "invisible colleges" may one day >develop into something with more substantial momentum of >possibly paradigm shifting proportions, despite the rather >dismaying antognistic discourse along the way. We have no argument justifying my waste of your time here, Sir. I regret you felt compelled to go to such lengths to answer in detail. But I detect a presumption on your part here of which others are guilty, and it is my contention that it is just this presumption, dare I say assumption, keeping progress on the matter in question so glacial. You presuppose that the mainstream attention required to get consideration on this subject is available given your (et al) ability to contribute to good science. That is not, and for my money, has never been the case. The problem is that this 'mainstream' is so jealously conflicted with regard to the maintenance of its suspiciously _dubious_ status quo that it has made itself incapable of ever performing as you intimate or suggest. The 'antagonistic discourse' (you very thinly imply I'm about) comes from what I perceive as the unceasing activities that some engage themselves in... activities regarding babies discarded with bathwater and wheat thrown out with chaff. The persons I allude to are quick to assassinate the motivations and characters of sincere 'others' suspecting or beginning to suspect that the 2% of aggregate reality willing to be measured and predicted or collected into a test-tube will not produce a clear picture of that more whole reality in question. Further, I contend that the aforementioned 'mainstream' (the air-tight corporate purse) does not even require convincing on the matter at all... as it is _already_ convinced and abundantly so! In fact, it might be that the level of it's feigned 'reluctance' to be convinced on the matter is directly proportional to how convinced it actually is! This is to say that the more convinced they become with regard to how irrelevant they perceive themselves... the more sullen, recalcitrant, and taciturn they become. To our aggregate detriment, Sir! Forgetting that the ethics of the situation demand that this 'mainstream' entity be created to serve individuals, this current mainstream has instead inserted _itself_ as the object to be served... _by_ individuals. This is contraindicated for progressiveness. This is anathema to the rising and advancing of the human spirit. This is a hungry dog chasing its tail instead of a meal. This is wrong. I say again. Doing good science is not the problem... in fact it is the likely solution to a large part of the problem (philosophy and metaphysics cleaning up the lion's share of the remaining balance). The problem, as I see it, is the science not getting done at all... because self-involved and sociopathic swine want to keep their billets in the catbird seat where wealth and privilege flow only upwards, creationism is inculcated in employee producing schools, and reproductive denial is facilitated as a substitute for creativity, wisdom, and perspicacity. My problem is not with you, Sir. My problem is not with Mr. Frison or even selected others... my problem is with persons too quick to smirk, sneer, and snicker with regard to other intelligent and sincere persons just waking up to the fact that society, even a ufological one, might trifle to piss on their leg and tell them it's rain. The 'pissers', as it were. Those who would pretend higher ethical, moral, or intellectual ground based on a paradigm that has not moved us ufologically the width of a short hair in half a century. These aforementioned would feel my outraged teeth on the back of their legs, Sir. I can't apologize, and won't. Outrage is appropriate. Anger is justified. Indignation is defensible. The expression of same is reasonable... It was provoked after all. Moreover, given that whatever remains of 21st Century promise is a result of novelty's serendipity and the unfettered expressions of rebels and radicals of the near past... I don't believe that I am remotely remiss in continuing these outspoken traditions today. Even if they _are_ described as antagonistic. Even if they _are_ angry. Even if they _are_ upsetting. My outrage is created in the summative betrayal I perceive, Sir. I'm a reaction, not a cause. I'm provoked... and I bite. I'm a progressive offended and insulted by smirking regressivism, Sir. Another thing for which I won't apologize... as I feel that the rank and file human being is betrayed by regressives and is compelled to needless sacrifice by same. That goes on as long as it is tolerated. Good luck and clear sailing in _your_ effort, Sir.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Canadian Connection To Roswell UFO Crash? - From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 17:09:41 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:38:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Canadian Connection To Roswell UFO Crash? - >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:08:56 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Roswell UFO Crash - A Canadian Connection? >Hi Everyone! <snip> >There a history about man-made flying saucers that is still >largely unknown and shrouded in mystery that may not only >explain the Roswell UFO crash but all UFO sightings - and there >may even be a Canadian connection too! ;o) Hello Nick,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:21:33 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:41:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Bourdais >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:33:38 -0700 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 04:37:27 EDT >>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>You are flatly evading Don's questions with lawyer-type >>hairsplitting tactics. >Brad, >I'm not evading anything, and nor would I. There would be no >point to me evading the question, because all of the data is in >the book on the May 1947 atomic event, for anyone and everyone >to see! So why on earth would I avoid discussing something that >I have openly written about, and that people could prove I had >written about??!! Nick, David Rudiak has just shown again that the Roswell debris could not be from any balloon contraption, and that any balloon or aircraft debris would have been identified easily by everybody in Roswell, including Brazel to start with, but you keep serving the same tired arguments, as if he had said nothing. Now, as Brad points out, you are avoiding any embarrassing question about the absurd and impossible idea of hanging an atomic pile to a balloon, even for a short ride over White Sands. Nick, you are not giving credible answers to any of the very difficult questions piling-up about you book. Perhaps it is time to make a list of them, for the record ? Anyone would be ready to do that ? In addition to the questions above, I see at least, to begin with : - the impossibility to have brought back prisonners from the Japanese Unit 731, because they were all killed, and the area was taken over by the Russians. Besides, the Roswell people would have identified Japanese beings (even deformed with progeria!), and would have never announced the discovery of a "flying disk"; - the impossibility of the Horten glider- Fugo balloon hybrid assemblage, and how patently absurd it would have been for experiments such as described in your book. Anyway, there was no Horten craft, or Horten-derived at the time, and even less "lifting bodies'" which are completely out of place here. Not to mention "Nazi flying saucers" ! Their only purpose seems to be to "explain" the craft of the Roswell case. - the obvious contradiction between the sries of secret service agents giving you there strange revelations, and at the same time explaining that it is a horrible secret, to hide at all costs. Well, I suppose I could go on, but this is enough, already, to understand that your story smells strongly of disinformation.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Interesting UFO Tidbit From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 13:58:25 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:59:01 -0400 Subject: Interesting UFO Tidbit Dear List: As an item of interest, I thought I would pass on something I learned in a conversation with one of my brothers after I bumped into him while shopping in the mall yesterday. He first told me that he had gone to Halifax, Nova Scotia recently to purchase a car and I said to him that I was in Halifax myself not all that long ago - speaking at a UFO symposium. This brought us on to the UFO subject and he proceeded to tell me about an experience he had some time back - an experience that I did not know about. I was familiar with sightings that other members of my family had over the years but was completely unaware of this one. It was approximately 20 years ago, he said, and took place after midnight when he and a girl he was with left a dance hall in Dominion, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia (the dance ended at 12.00 midnight) and proceeded to an isolated field off Neville Street to do some parking. Actually, they took care of their business "in the grass" and when finished, they both stood up to notice an unlighted structure hovering eight or nine feet above them. He said you could almost reach up and touch it, it was so close to the top of their heads. Its color was a charcoal grey and there was only a slight hum coming from it, no other noise. On the underside, it was all embossed with circular and cylindrical designs - these being part of the metal structure of the thing, that is, raised and indented areas on an otherwise smooth bottom. My brother said it was rectangular and hugh. He said it was "so long, you couldn't see the end of it. It was like having a city over your head." He relates that it was an ungodly size and that it was longer than wide, kept saying "he couldn't get over how long it was." He said he had the distinct impression at the time that it was some kind of aircraft carrier, that its purpose was as a landing station for other craft. It then began inching slowly away, I mean, literally moving only inches at a time away in a horizontal plane. After doing this for a short time, "it suddenly just rose upwards and lifted away almost instantly - gone in seconds, it went so fast." My brother said that what astonished him was that when it did this upward lifting away, he "didn't feel any downward pressure or thrust pushing down [on him]. There was absolutely nothing felt, not the slightest hint of disturbance, as it accelerated upward and was gone in almost the blink of an eye. He felt that something that hugh shooting skyward should have produced one heck of a commotion "but there was nothing". The girl he was with started freaking out, frantically saying over and over, "What was that thing, ____? What was that thing, ____? (brother's name deleted)" She kept it up the whole distance home. Not much can be done with this one, considering that it was 20 years ago and there was only one other witness. However, he says the girl will definitely remember it and be willing to talk about it, so we are trying to track her down.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Contactee Taboo - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 13:00:44 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:01:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Maccabee >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <UFOUpdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:36:57 +1000 >Subject: Contactee Taboo >Something that has been troubling me for a while is the current >lack of interest in the contactees of the 1950s and 60s era. >In the preface of the book, George Adamski - The Untold Story, >it states "One almost trembles at the thought of even mentioning >Adamski, for to do so nowadays is considered very bad form in >ufological circles because everybody 'knows' he was a fraud." >It goes on to say that "I notice too, all over the world, that >alleged UFO percipients have continued to tell contactee stories t>hat are far, far wilder and far more fantastic than anything .Adamski ever said, and yet on the whole, these percipients seem >to be listened to... almost never do they seem to be greeted >with the sort of obloquy that was heaped on Adamski." <snip> >Contemplating Adamski's work after such a time and from an >objective point of view, it looks as if his endeavours as well >as his dedication were almost lost: his achievements seem almost >nil. His dream for mankind's joyful acceptance of human >connections in the cosmos did not materialize in his lifetime. >But there is no doubt in the minds of his friends that he was >indeed a man with a mission, assigned to carry out a plan put up >by a group of friendly and advanced people from outside Earth. >For many years he and his space friends must have hoped for the >lifting of the veil of secrecy, but in vain. <snip> >Even though the flow of contact stories has never stopped >since the Forties, it cannot be denied that their tone has >changed a great deal since Adamski died. >Instead of trying to communicate with us in a friendly way, we >now have to deal with strange-looking aliens who seem to know >how to make good use of us as a convenient variety of guinea-pig >for their research work, especially since they have discovered >how easily many of us can be hypnotized. >Those faint signs of a new dawn on our horizon, perceived and >acted on not only by Adamski, have almost disappeared. There is >no longer any reason for these friendly groups to wait endlessly >in the wings for a sign of welcome on the stage. And they do not >need us, to be sure. Yet I do not think that all of them have >left; some may still be around, undetected - and depressingly >silent. >After half a lifetime's work with George Adamski, I want to >point out how silly it can be to discard a man's story just for >its strangeness, a man's photograph for its novelty, a man's >description for its unintelligibility. Man is by nature a >searcher. Is it not better to make the best of what Adamski has >left us in his admittedly often cryptic material? Maybe we shall >discover new sources of propulsion - for our brain cells if >nothing else! What a challenge for the young generation!" I have read some contactee literature (including generally unknown contactees). It is often not understandable and wat one contactee says is often different or maybe even contradictory to what another says (although they basically agree that people should be nice, mom is great and so is apple pie and ban the bomb - hmmmm - modern contactees should "drop the bomb" and start banning WMD). Anyway, I have some direct experience with "contactees" since <gulp> I am apparently one of them. Yes, quite to my amused chagrin (if such is possible) I was directly and unexpectedly contacted by the universally (!) famous Ashtar Command. (I don't know if even Adamski can claim this... honor...). Anyway, the complete story is told at http://brumac.8k.com/ashtar.html At the very least this little adventure shows how confusing and even self-contradictory contactee literature can be. I might point out that after my Ashtar command story was published 7 years ago I was congratulated by some people who were members of an "Asthar command" believers group. In fact, they seemed somewhat in awe of me, having received direct communications from Ashtar and having been welcomed into the Ashtar Command. In fact, I was even promoted to "Commander Maccabee."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 07:22:04 -1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:04:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Salla >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:46:32 -1000 >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:23:39 EDT >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC <snip> >Now your objections are interesting in the way you spin these to >support your case. You first refer to the historian William >Jackson and his 1954 and 1956 recommendations to have the OCB >formally incorporated into the NSC. You claim that this is >historical evidence supporting your case, and that Jackson was >more reliable than Cutler who was biased because the latter >actually served on the OCB and wanted to gloss over his >failures. Basically, you are saying that a historian/advisor >knew better how the OCB functioned by reading a set of >historical documents, than one of the key people serving on it >who was no less that Eisenhower's Special Assistant. That's a >very contentious point. Correction: William Jackson was an investment banker and former CIA deputy director asked by President Eisenhower to come up with suggested reforms of the NSC system. He used a body of Princeton consultants that came up with recommendations that included reform for how sensitive covert projects some of which involved psychological operations could be conducted. These reforms involved renaming and changing the composition of the very suggestive 'Psychological Strategy Board' and coming up with the more innocuous sounding replacement: the Operations Coordinating Board. It is clear that William Jackson's familiarity with the OCB came from his heading a committee designed to review this and other NSC agencies/committees that were part of the NSC system. President Eisenhower described the Jackson committee recommendations as "the reconstitution and revitalization of the National Security Council." Jackson's recommendations covered the creation and strengthening of the OCB as part of the "revitalization" of the NSC. This also demonstates how the OCB was part of the NSC system and Jackson's role was to make it more effective. It should not therefore be assumed that William Jackson was of the opinion that the OCB was outside of the NSC system nor that he and Robert Cutler differed over the role of the OCB within the NSC. It appears that both viewed it as part of the NSC system and that Jackson's role was to strengthen the OCB within the NSC system, while Cutler's role was more of an individual active involved in the running of the OCB which was part of the NSC system. More information on the role played by Robert Jackson, the Jackson Committee and the OCB can be found at: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2807/SupReam.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Secrecy News - 08/04/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 13:55:23 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:10:36 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News - 08/04/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 75 August 4, 2005 ** SUPPRESSED BRAC CRITIQUES DISCLOSED ** COURT IS ASKED TO SCRUTINIZE SECRECY CLAIMS ** HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI YIELDS SUPPRESSED BRAC CRITIQUES DISCLOSED Two internal Department of Defense critiques of the highly contentious Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) process that were withheld from Congress despite an explicit request have been obtained by Secrecy News and are being published today. On July 21, 2005, Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John Warner wrote to the Department of Defense to request a copy of all papers written by a defense analyst named Don J. DeYoung on BRAC proposals for consolidating DoD laboratories and technical research centers. See Senator Warner's letter here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dod/brac/warner072105.pdf In a July 25, 2005 response, acting Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon England forwarded six such papers by Mr. DeYoung. See his response here (2.9 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dod/brac/england072505.pdf But two other sharply critical internal papers by DeYoung were not provided to the Senate Armed Services Committee. They are being released today by Secrecy News. An explanatory introduction - which was written by an anonymous "concerned citizen" and is not an official document - puts the dense and highly technical DeYoung papers in some context. See: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dod/brac/overview.pdf The first paper, entitled "Shadows on the Wall: The Problem with Military Value Metrics," is a critique of the bias in military metrics that, the author says, favors the largest DoD laboratories and centers in the realignment process. It is posted here (1.5 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dod/brac/shadows.pdf The second paper, "Defending the Technical Infrastructure Proposals of the 2005 Base Realignment and Closure Round," finds significant methodological flaws in the proposed consolidation of DoD technical facilities that "if implemented, will contribute toward a degradation of national defense capabilities." http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dod/brac/defending.pdf The unclassified documents are marked "draft deliberative document - for discussion purposes only - do not release under FOIA." They were provided by a government source who believed they should not have been withheld from Congress. COURT IS ASKED TO SCRUTINIZE SECRECY CLAIMS A wide-ranging critique of government secrecy practices was presented in a friend of the court brief filed yesterday with the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit in a case brought by the ACLU challenging the use of so-called national security letters. The brief was written by Meredith Fuchs of the National Security Archive and Marcia Hoffman of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. The FAS Project on Government Secrecy and the National Whistleblower Coalition were also party to the brief. See "Archive, Secrecy Experts Urge Court to Scrutinize Government Secrecy Claims," National Security Archive, August 3, 2005: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB160/index.htm HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI YIELDS The Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed by the United States sixty years ago this weekend on August 6 and 9, 1945, in the first use of nuclear weapons in war. The explosive yields of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear blasts, approximately 15 kilotons and 21 kilotons respectively, were estimated in a 1985 Los Alamos paper by John Malik. The paper, which included detailed mission profiles and parameters, was formerly available online through the Los Alamos research library, but now it is among the thousands of unclassified documents whose online access is "restricted to selected government agencies." But a copy is available through the Federation of American Scientists. See "The yields of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear explosions" by John S. Malik, Los Alamos report number LA-8819, September 1985 (1.8 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/lanl/docs1/00313791.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Contactee Taboo - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 14:48:19 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:12:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Clark >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:39:54 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >>To: <UFOUpdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:36:57 +1000 >>Subject: Contactee Taboo >>What I don't understand is why contactees have been so >>consistently persecuted, ridiculed, criticised, abused and >>ignored. Only people who were vindicated by history have >>typically received so much adverse attention. >Adamski was fun, but to hope for a renewed interest in his patently >absurd revelations goes against the sophistication that pretends to >be the hallmark of society, even amongst the young. >Time to move on to cynical realisms... Not so fast, Rich. Adamski's, Inside the Space Ships, which I reread just the other week (for work, not pleasure, purposes), should be preserved for its miraculous insomnia-curing properties. Those of us who suffer from that affliction will affirm that Adamski's yarns and "philosophical" bloviations still have their uses. Adamski himself was an entertaining, colorful (and, I would argue, essentially harmless) character right out of Melville's novel The Confidence Man, with its apposite line "one eye on the cosmos, the other on the main chance." But Adamski's actual
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:01:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:13:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Lehmberg >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:21:33 +0200 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:33:38 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 04:37:27 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs <snip> >- the obvious contradiction between the sries of secret service >agents giving you there strange revelations, and at the same >time explaining that it is a horrible secret, to hide at all >costs. Well, I suppose I could go on, but this is enough, >already, to understand that your story smells strongly of >disinformation. Additionally, with regard to the framers of a suspected cover- up, believing in a monstrous and sociopathic United States is preferable to an admission that we are being visited by off planet intelligent beings and interacting with same. Given current events? Self-contained institutional evil of human
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:24:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:40:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 14:48:19 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:39:54 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >>>To: <UFOUpdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:36:57 +1000 >>>Subject: Contactee Taboo >>>What I don't understand is why contactees have been so >>>consistently persecuted, ridiculed, criticised, abused and >>>ignored. Only people who were vindicated by history have >>>typically received so much adverse attention. >Adamski was fun, but to hope for a renewed interest in his >patently absurd revelations goes against the sophistication >that pretends to be the hallmark of society, even amongst the young. >>Time to move on to cynical realisms... >Not so fast, Rich. Adamski's, Inside the Space Ships, which I >reread just the other week (for work, not pleasure, purposes), >should be preserved for its miraculous insomnia-curing >properties. Those of us who suffer from that affliction will >affirm that Adamski's yarns and "philosophical" bloviations >still have their uses. >Adamski himself was an entertaining, colorful (and, I would >argue, essentially harmless) character right out of Melville's >novel The Confidence Man, with its apposite line "one eye on the >cosmos, the other on the main chance." But Adamski's actual >writings - in truth ghostwritten at his direction by various >associates - are as chloroform to the brain.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:31:06 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:43:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:52:46 -0500 >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 20:45:14 EDT >>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:33:37 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch <snip> >>So we see a process of reworking and refining UFO disinformation >>stories and fake documents, as well as passing off faked UFO >>stories and documents into a UFO "rumor mill" (p. 102), so the >>quality of the disinfo varies widely. This means some UFO disinfo >>is poorly done and some is better done, always, there is never a >>strict perfectionist standard applied which allows only 100% >>perfect fabrications to be disseminated. >But again you assume they >>even cared. If it was a shotgun >>approach of testing out various contacts and seeing what worked, >>see what hogwash was swallowed by the UFO community and what >>wouldn't fly, then it wouldn't matter what the files said >>correctly or incorrectly about your activities, and it wouldn't >>matter what you had or had not done on UFOs in a long time. A >>disinformation "rumor mill" (p. 102) does not have exacting >>recruitment standards! <snip> >>You assume a high-powered high-priority operation with vast >>resources where every aspect of the operation is meticulously >>examined and investigated before every move. If in fact as I >>have been able to reconstruct these disinfo ops on UFOs were >>low-priority, low-level, minimally-funded, then they just didn't >>bother with extensive background checks on every potential >>contact, maybe just a minimal AFOSI file check, a DCII (Defense >>Criminal Investigations Index) check, maybe skipping a NAC >>(National Agency Check) since they don't want to constantly be >>tipping off other agencies as to the identities of AFOSI >>Confidential Informants. >Brad: >The work that you allot for disinfo agents is beyond the pale. I had just stated it was "low-priority, low-level, minimally-funded." >Just as Dr. Salla's whistleblowers are probably trying to make a >name for themselves (because of some cockeyed ego deficiency), >isn't it possible that your disinfo agents are doing just the >same; that is, these people aren't really disinfo agents, just >persons who make up a story that they are operators for the >government? Yes it's possible but Nick claims he has checked out their backgrounds and found they did work for psych war-type agencies. >Nick Redfern's people are either deluded, hoping to leave a kind >legacy (as Corso seemed to do) or they are senile men and women >who think they are a meaningful part of the American underbelly. But none of Nick's "sources" are publishing books or trying to grab the spotlight as Corso did. They're just putting junk into the UFO rumor mill. >Or they are persons who actually had access to the information >they imparted to Nick Redfern. >All the work you attribute to disinfo ops doesn't make sense. >Why would the U.S. government expend so much effort to put >ufologists (a lame lot in the public mind) on to things bogus? What is "so much effort"? Making a few phone calls to plant a few alien rumors? That wouldn't even show up on a covert ops unit's line-item budget. Plus they could easily cover a little travel expense under the guise of "training" exercises. It's all a drop in the bucket compared to the $1 billion+ US covert ops annual budget these days (depending on your definition of "covert ops" various military ops could add several more $ billion per year). Here is a sample of what the FBI did in its COINTELPRO (counter- intelligence program) from the 40's to the 70's, including precursor ops before COINTELPRO was formally set up in 1956. These were explicitly based on techniques developed in operations against foreign intelligence, thus copying standard CIA and AF counter- intelligence methodology. Many FBI agents were former CIA, Army CIC and AFOSI agents. Conversely many FBI agents cycled into the CIA and AFOSI. The founder of AFOSI Joseph F. Carroll was a former FBI agent. So was the CIA's legendary William King Harvey, chief of the Foreign Intelligence Staff of the Clandestine Service. According to the Church Committee final report this is what was done to various civil rights groups and other targeted American citizens, and remember this is what was done to Americans, full citizens, within the United States, not foreign agents, or overseas (other agencies did this overseas and their methods were imitated at home): IV. COINTELPRO Techniques [before 1956 "divide, confuse, weaken in diverse ways, an organization"; after 1956 "to expose, disrupt, misdirect, discredit, or otherwise neutralize the activities of... organizations and groupings, their leadership, spokesmen, membership, and supporters... to exploit conflicts within and between groups; to use news media contacts to disrupt, ridicule, or discredit groups; to preclude... leaders of these groups from spreading their philosophy publicly; and to gather information on the 'unsavory backgrounds' immorality, subversive activity, and criminal activity 'of group members"; "Every avenue of possible embarrassment must be vigorously and enthusiastically explored."] A. Propaganda B. Efforts to Promote Enmity and Factionalism Within Groups or Between Groups C. Using Hostile Third Parties Against Target Groups D. Disseminating Derogatory Information to Family, Friends, and Associates of Targeted Group Leaders and Members E. Disseminating False Info to Funding Sources F. Use and Abuse of Government Processes [IRS audits for purposes of harassment, and other Federal, State and local regulatory and other agencies] G. Spreading False Rumors of "Communist" Influence of a Targeted Organization Would it surprise you that the AF used almost all of these harassment techniques against NICAP? Why would the AF "expend so much effort" (to use your words) against NICAP? Today's "rumor mill" type disinfo ops hardly hold a candle to that. >You are creating the same scenario for UFOs that was used for >the Cold War and other government disonformation projects. But >UFOs are not in the same category and if the government is truly >sending forth all these people to confuse or addle ufologists, >then the country is in a crazier state than anyone can imagine. In fact UFOs were in the same category as the Cold War as stated in numerous policy documents including the TOP SECRET Air Force Intelligence AIR 203 Study of 1948-9, the Project Grudge final report of Aug 1949 which stated that UFOs posed a psych war threat, the CIA Office of Scientific Intelligence studies in 1952 of the UFO psych war potential in the Cold War, the Robertson Panel Report which echoed the CIA/AF conclusions, etc. The Cold War did not end until the 90's, after the Roswell phenomenon was already in full swing for a decade. Any Cold War disinfo ops on the UFO subject would have incorporated Roswell into the 90's at least. If the covert ops agencies had
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 4 Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:42:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:47:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon - White >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:43:27 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon <snip> >Unlike crops circles or physical evidence cases (such as the >alien blonde hair strands that Bill Chalker and Whitley Strieber >obtained and sent out for testing) where no UFOs are ever >sighted... Wasn't there a video on TV where a small disc flew low over a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 13:45:41 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:01:47 -0400 Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet - Hatch >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:27:53 -0400 >Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 03:04:58 -0700 >>Subject: Re: NASA Scientists Discover Tenth Planet >>Virtually all of the ancients thought the Earth was flat BTW, >>with astronomical objects fixed or traveling on rotating crystal >>spheres at relatively short distances. >I'm with you, Larry, on everything but this. The flat earth with crystal spheres was a dark ages concept. Many ancient civilizations knew the earth was round, and some had even figured out its diameter pretty accurately. Hi Bob: Some ancient Greeks certainly knew the Earth was a sphere, and even made initial estimates for the distance to the Moon if memory serves, yes. I was referring to the Babylonians/Assyrians and/or anyone included in the Sitchinism, including the ancient Hebrews, some 2500 years BC, rather than the Greeks. I know the ancient
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:49:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:02:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - White >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:59:40 -0500 >Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars <snip> >The JPL people would claim they _are_ searching for life in >their own way, as mysterious as the ways of JPL might seem to >outsiders. Right. Adolf Hitler claimed his armies were just "protecting" the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:11:19 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:04:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Reynolds >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:31:06 EDT >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:52:46 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch <snip> >>All the work you attribute to disinfo ops doesn't make sense. >>Why would the U.S. government expend so much effort to put >>ufologists (a lame lot in the public mind) on to things bogus? >What is "so much effort"? Making a few phone calls to plant a >few alien rumors? That wouldn't even show up on a covert ops >unit's line-item budget. Plus they could easily cover a little >travel expense under the guise of "training" exercises. It's all >a drop in the bucket compared to the $1 billion+ US covert ops >annual budget these days (depending on your definition of >"covert ops" various military ops could add several more $ >billion per year). >Here is a sample of what the FBI did in its COINTELPRO (counter- >intelligence program) from the 40's to the 70's, including >precursor ops before COINTELPRO was formally set up in 1956. >These were explicitly based on techniques developed in >operations against foreign intelligence, thus copying standard >CIA and AF counter- intelligence methodology. Many FBI agents >were former CIA, Army CIC and AFOSI agents. Conversely many FBI >agents cycled into the CIA and AFOSI. The founder of AFOSI >Joseph F. Carroll was a former FBI agent. So was the CIA's >legendary William King Harvey, chief of the Foreign Intelligence >Staff of the Clandestine Service. <snip> >IV. COINTELPRO Techniques [before 1956 "divide, confuse, >weaken in diverse ways, an organization"; after 1956 "to expose, >disrupt, misdirect, discredit, or otherwise neutralize the >activities >of... organizations and groupings, their leadership, spokesmen, >membership, and supporters... to exploit conflicts within and >between groups; to use news media contacts to disrupt, ridicule, >or discredit groups; to preclude... leaders of these groups from >spreading their philosophy publicly; and to gather information on >the 'unsavory backgrounds' immorality, subversive activity, and >criminal activity 'of group members"; "Every avenue of possible >embarrassment must be vigorously and enthusiastically explored."] >A. Propaganda >B. Efforts to Promote Enmity and Factionalism Within Groups or >Between Groups >C. Using Hostile Third Parties Against Target Groups >D. Disseminating Derogatory Information to Family, Friends, and >Associates of Targeted Group Leaders and Members >E. Disseminating False Info to Funding Sources >F. Use and Abuse of Government Processes [IRS audits for >purposes of harassment, and other Federal, State and local >regulatory and other agencies] >G. Spreading False Rumors of "Communist" Influence of a >Targeted Organization >Would it surprise you that the AF used almost all of these >harassment techniques against NICAP? Why would the AF "expend >so much effort" (to use your words) against NICAP? Today's >"rumor mill" type disinfo ops hardly hold a candle to that. >>You are creating the same scenario for UFOs that was used for >>the Cold War and other government disonformation projects. But >>UFOs are not in the same category and if the government is truly >>sending forth all these people to confuse or addle ufologists, >>then the country is in a crazier state than anyone can imagine. >In fact UFOs were in the same category as the Cold War as stated >in numerous policy documents including the TOP SECRET Air Force >Intelligence AIR 203 Study of 1948-9, the Project Grudge final >report of Aug 1949 which stated that UFOs posed a psych war >threat, the CIA Office of Scientific Intelligence studies in >1952 of the UFO psych war potential in the Cold War, the >Robertson Panel Report which echoed the CIA/AF conclusions, etc. >The Cold War did not end until the 90's, after the Roswell >phenomenon was already in full swing for a decade. Any Cold War >disinfo ops on the UFO subject would have incorporated Roswell >into the 90's at least. If the covert ops agencies had >additional reasons besides the Cold War to go after the UFO >groups then these would survive the end of the Cold War. And as >I pointed out in previous postings the US covert ops budget has >been massively boosted since 9-11 so all sorts of "crazier" and >"crazier" projects can now get funded. Brad: As usual your erudition sets the record straight. And you reminded me that the FBI was into scouring meaningless groups in the 60s and part of the 70s. I was contacted by the Bureau once to provide information on the manager of the MC-5, who was a cohort of mine. (I didn't sign on.) And I wondered why the FBI would be fooling around with a heavy metal band and a guy like me, who was a minor reporter for a local newspaper.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Frison From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 19:12:09 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:08:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Frison >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:41:51 +1000 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:37:07 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>I wholeheartedly agree with you when it comes to wanting to see >>a forensic approach when investigating such cases. I, too, have >been arguing for this exact approach (see the section >>'Ufologists as Criminalists?' on page 54 of my article in the >>MUFON Canadian UFO Proceedings, Dartmouth, NS - September 18, >>2004). >Is it possible to get a copy of this paper? Yes, Bill... send me your snail mail, off-line, and I'll mail you out a copy of the proceedings. I managed to rustle up a copy. I didn't go deeply in to the topic - just touched on it - as it was a symposium directed at the general public and I didn't want to bog them down with technical details. The theme of my talk was on 'reality transformation' in UFO events' rather than 'forensics in ufology' but I went briefly into that as well. >In my book "Hair of the Alien" I've kept my Locard discussion to >the simple basics, namely every contact leaves a trace. I >certainly realise that things a rather more complicated, and I >even leave room for those that think that the intelligences >behind UFOs are simply so clever and unknowable that maybe the >approach you and I are in agreement with is a big waste of time. I look at it this way: if the Khoury case is legitimate, they certainly left a trace! If that was accidental, then they're subject to Locard's principle and sometimes mess up, contaminating the scene. If they're so smart and can never trip up, then it must be a deliberate planting of the evidence for us to find - and if they did that once then they might be doing it more often. So, the whole forensic approach is a valid one and has the potential to gather enough evidence to eventually prove the reality of the phenomenon. >How did these strange women arrive and leave so suddenly? - a >phenomenon often reported in UFO abduction experiences. The >initial strange perception of the women by Peter Khoury (like he >was seeing himself through a transparent version of himself) was >rapidly replaced by the certainty for Peter Khoury that these >women were really present. The hair sample recovered and the DNA >results attest to that reality. Without that evidence it would >have been tempting to view the encounter in rather more non- >concrete terms - a vision, an apparition or a hallucination? >Given the evidence perhaps the visitors arrival was facilitated >by some phenomena such as what we might speculate as being >"teleportation". I suspect the intelligence behind the phenomenon accomplishes this by having a much greater understanding of both the physical world and so-called psychic world than we do, perhaps making use of an underlying holographic nature of the universe or a mind/matter nexus at the quantum level, or similiar or even vastly different principles. I also touched on these in the above-mentioned symposium proceedings that you asked for. Of course, that's just a guess but if these properties are intrinsic to the universe, it stands to reason the UFO intelligence knows about them and is using them. >I am no expert in the area, but in my research into human hair >morphology I got the impression that there are tremendous >variations, and thus uncertainty, in extrapolating too much from >such characteristics in the absence of other identifying >factors. Given this I would not want to speculate about >interpretations of evidence for hybridization on the basis of >morphological characteristics alone. Definitely not! As you say, the variations are tremendous. My point was that examination of the morphological features of the apparently human hair - given the strange way the women came and left - might possibly reveal hints pointing to hybridization if indeed those two 'humans' were a little more than human, considering that the hair of most other species is easily distinguishable from human hair. Anomalies, rather than just variations, in the morphological features of the hair would signal that there could be much to gain by searching within the genetics of the hair. These morphological examinations are relatively easy to do and could lead to a list of interesting anomalies, that would have some value. However, it's in the genetic examinations - the DNA - where the real meat and potatoes is going to be found, if it exists. >I think you are inappropriately harsh in your criticism of >Eugene's enthusiastic embrace of the forensic approach, and by >default, of my call for a forensic scientific take on alien >abductions. I don't agree that we should just accept that >whatever is going on with alien abductions is so unknowable and >beyond our ken, that we therefore should not try any approach >that helps illuminate what goes on. Very, very well said, Bill. I was going to say most of what you said in the rest of your post but then opted to just delete immediately from my inbox anything with Alfred's name on it, that is, just not even read it. And that's what I've been doing! So I don't know what Alfred has been saying. I don't feel it's productive to waste time locking antlers with Alfred. >"If alien abductions really occur in the manner described by >thousands of people around the world, then at the very least a >"crime" against the sovereignty of human kind is being >perpetrated. Most of the claims of alien abduction describe >situations that are clearly against the will of the individuals >involved. Thus the "crime" interpretation and the forensic >approach it inspires are well founded. I said exactly the same thing in the symposium proceedings of the MUFON First Annual Canadian UFO Symposium in September, 2004! >If we examine the UFO evidence there are numerous examples of >things we might interprete as the result of less than perfect >UFOs & aliens - UFO "crashes"! if we accept if any of them are >real; the numerous accounts of poor wardrobe management of >returned abductees; cases that refer to abductee's being left at >the wrong house; the teleportation "mistake" I alluded to near >NW Cape in 1967 in a earlier post to this thread; mistakes, >carelessness, contempt, too much of a hurry keeping up with too >many abductions, etc, whatever, And what about the unfortunate witnesses to UFO events that sustained injuries or burns, etc.? If the UFO intelligence is so smart and perfect, how do witnesses sometimes suffer such burns and injuries? If they're super-duper smart and so perfect, so unable to make mistakes, are these injuries then deliberate? That would surely be a crime, wouldn't it? Accident, mistake, or intentional - the burns and injuries are definitely in the category of "every contact leaving a trace" (Locard's principle). No matter which way you slice it, the forensic scientific approach is valid and justified. If the burns and injuries, etc. are accidental then they mess up, sometimes big time! If the burns, injuries, etc. are deliberate then it's a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 PRG Update - August 3 2005 From: Stephen Bassett <ParadigmRG.nul> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:31:08 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:11:49 -0400 Subject: PRG Update - August 3 2005 PRG Paradigm Research Group PRG Update - August 3, 2005 [Note: if embedded links don't work, copy and paste] X-Conference 2006 The 3rd Exopolitics Expo has tentative dates of June 2-4, 2006 at Hilton Gaithersburg, but remains on hold pending substantial new funding currently being sought. Upcoming Speaking Schedule for Stephen Bassett www.paradigmclock.com/speaking .html August 12, 2005 7:30 pm (Box office opens at 5 pm) Marjorie Luke Theater 721 East Cota Street, Santa Barbara, CA Topic: The Extraterrestrial Presence and the Politics of Disclosure September 25, 2005 9:30 am to 3:45 pm (4 speakers) University of Toronto Convocation Hall 31 Kings College Circle, Toronto, Canada Topic: Symposium on Disclosure and Planetary Directions September 28, 2005 7:30 pm (Box office opens at 5:30 pm) Avalon Theatre 40 East Dover Street, Easton MD Topic: The Extraterrestrial Presence and the Politics of Disclosure October 15-16, 2005 Sunday 8:45 am (Lecture), 9:45 am (Workshop) The Bay Area UFO Expo Westin Santa Clara 5101 Great American Parkway, Santa Clara, CA Lecture: The Disclosure Show: Looking back at 10 years of exopolitical activism Workshop: Disclosure: Why it will and must happen, how it will happen and what you need to do about it November 4-6, 2005 Friday 8:15 pm 3rd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference Embassy Suites Hotel and Convention Center 3600 Paradise Road, Las Vegas, NV Moderator: Speaker panel and press conference The Chaffinch House - Easton, MD www.chaffinchhouse.com PRG supporter and music entrepreneur, Theresa Aldao, owns a gorgeous Bed and Breakfast in the postcard perfect town of Easton, MD on the Eastern Shore. She is arranging for UFO/ET researcher/activists to spend time at her B&B where they can round table and meet with other B&B guests who have booked for that purpose. Lloyd Pye has been hosted, and William Henry is scheduled. In conjunction with his appearance at Easton's famous Avalon Theatre Stephen Bassett will be at the Chaffinch House from September 26-29. Those looking for a wonderful vacation in an idyllic setting along with private discussions with Stephen, see details at: www.chaffinchhouse.com The National UFO Conference September 2-4, 2005 The Renaissance Hotel, Hollywood, CA www.nufoc.org PRG strongly supports the renewed NUFOC now homed based in Hollywood, CA at the 4-star Renaissance Hotel. This event has the potential to develop awareness and contacts within the entertainment community regarding the work of researcher/activists. Please support this conference with your presence and enjoy a great time and lots of fun at the Hollywood and Highland Entertainment Center. Registration at: www.nufoc.org PRG Network http://livingdirectory.net/PRG/ In 2002 PRG created an Internet presence within the Living Directory Network (formerly Friendly Favors) founded by Sergio Lub. Other pressing demands have limited development of the PRG network, but PRG will soon renew expansion of this resource. Think of the Living Directory Network as a Match.com for ideas, activism and human potential. Some of the nearly 200 subnets include: the State of the World Forum, Women's Environmental Network, Votenet, Institute of Noetic Sciences and the John E. Mack Institute. You can apply to any of the subnets which interest you, but you will have a single information page connected to your subnets. There you can place information of your choosing to help you network with others of similar interests. Of particular value is the events module which allows you to track and schedule meetings and lectures within a single subnet or across all groups you have joined. Internet resources like the Living Directory Network are the future of political activism and social change. PRG looks forward to an expanded participation. ________________________________________________________ Paradigm Research Group E-mail: ParadigmRG.nul URL: www.paradigmclock.com Cell: 202-215-8344 4938 Hampden Lane, #161 Bethesda, MD 20814 _________________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:17:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:17:47 -0400 Subject: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens Source: Phenomena Magazine http://tinyurl.com/8ykar Wednesday, August 3, 2005 New UFO Data UFOs - The Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens Surprising Developments Nick Redfern Phenomena Co-Editor Many people with an interest in the UFO mystery will have heard of the so-called "Flying Triangle" puzzle. For more than a decade, sightings of large, triangular-shaped UFOs, often black in color, with rounded corners and making a low, humming noise have been reported throughout the world. A perfect example is a wave of such sightings that occurred over Staffordshire, England, in 1988 and that has been investigated extensively by Graham Allen, of the Staffordshire UFO Group. The picture that accompanies this article displays a classic rendition of the Triangles, similar to that which can be found on the cover of the Staffordshire UFO Group's DVD on the 1988 wave: Cannock Chase UFO Hotspot UK. The fact that the wealth of such reports is in stark contrast to the situation decades previously when Saucer-shaped vehicles were seen in abundance, has led some commentators to suspect that the Triangles are military aircraft, developed relatively recently, and perhaps along the lines of a next-generation Stealth-type vehicle. Some probably are. However, sightings of practically identical vehicles date back at least forty years =96 and can be documented an official level. While digging through a whole host of formerly classified files on UFOs at the National Archive at Kew, England, I came across a one-page report dated 28 March 1965 that, I confess, I almost overlooked. On closer inspection, however, I realized that it was potentially one of the most important UFO-related documents that I had ever come across. According to the MoD paperwork, on the night in question a man saw at approximately 9.30 p.m. over moor-land near Richmond, North Yorkshire: "Nine or ten objects =96 in close triangular formation each about 100ft long =96 orange illumination below =96 each triangular in shape with rounded corners, making low humming noise." Interestingly, the "rounded corners" and "low humming noise" are, as I said above, precisely what many witnesses to Flying Triangle-style UFO encounters are reporting today =96 in a worldwide capacity, no less. Recognizing the significance of this, I made a photocopy of the document and set about locating the witness. I introduced myself and explained that I had located at the National Archive a copy of the original report that dealt with his sighting all those years ago. It is fair to say that he was shocked, to say the least, to find that details of his long-gone encounter had been kept on file by the Ministry of Defense for more than thirty years. "Yes, I did send in a report all those years ago, but I didn=92t think they would have kept it all this time," he told me, with astonishment in his voice. As he explained, on 28 March 1965 at approximately 9.30 p.m., he had been driving through the North Yorkshire moors of England, when, on approaching the village of Skeeby, near Richmond, the engine of his car began to splutter and die. "It was a 1951 Ford," he stated, adding with some humor: "and it was a good car but a bit unpredictable at times. I didn=92t want to break down on the moor because it was icy cold and the nights were still dark. I got out of the car to have a look at the engine and that=92s when I saw this light." He continued: "At first, because it was so dark, I wondered if it might be a weather balloon. But then I had a good look at it over the hedge and realized how big it was and how low down it was. It was about one hundred feet from end-to-end, about one hundred feet above the moors and shaped like a huge triangle and white, milky-white in color. "It kept coming towards me and then stopped about two hundred yards from me over the moors. It hovered for a while =96 nothing came out of it, but there was a light below it that just pulsated like a light bulb. There could have been quite a few lights on it but from a distance the light just looked like a glow. Then without a warning, it just took off at a speed that isn=92t recognized. Good gracious, I thought, it must be a UFO. "As it shot up, not vertically but at an angle, it joined a group of others that were identical and that were in a triangular or V-formation. The others were very, very high; a whole fleet of them. They all then headed south, I think, at a tremendous speed and disappeared over the horizon. I saw the main one for no more than a couple of minutes," he recalled, "but after they had gone I was still stood by the moor watching this fleet disappear. I waited in case something else exciting happened, but of course it didn=92t." Curiously, shortly after the encounter and after having reported the incident to the Ministry of Defense at Whitehall, the man began to notice "awful red marks on my skin which were like a stretch mark, but they were like a deep salmon red and they kept coming and going. But I didn=92t have them before." The most bizarre angle of the entire episode was still to come, however, as he graphically illustrated: "For about eighteen months after the sighting, I would get strange telephone calls from people. These would be every two or three months. They just phoned out of the blue but didn=92t introduce themselves. "They just said they were from some bureau or other. They didn=92t mention the name of the bureau but kept mentioning =91sightings=92 and asked whether I had seen anything else strange. Had any men come to interview me?" The man was never visited by anyone with regard to his Flying Triangle encounter, nor did the MoD ever offer an explanation as to what it was that he saw on that fateful night in March 1965. To this day, however, that series of strange and unnerving telephone calls continues to mystify him, primarily because aside from informing the MoD of what had occurred, he made no other report =96 either official or unofficial =96 with anyone and kept the details to himself; as he is at pains to point out: "The only report I ever made was the one I sent to the MoD. It was so exciting that I had to tell someone." His important testimony raises a number of vital questions: Why was someone so determined to find out if he had received any strange visits with regard to his encounter? Why the interest in knowing if he had had any other unusual encounters of a UFO nature? And most important of all: who was his mysterious caller? Was he subjected to such lengthy questioning because he inadvertently caught sight of a classified military project that the authorities wanted keeping under wraps, or because it was suspected that he had viewed something that was truly out of this world? To this day, he remains mystified by his extraordinary encounter over the Yorkshire moors in 1965. However, of one thing we can now be certain: the Flying
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Contactee Taboo - Frola From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 08:58:21 +1000 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:21:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Frola >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:24:01 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 14:48:19 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo <snip> >>Adamski himself was an entertaining, colorful (and, I would >>argue, essentially harmless) character right out of Melville's >>novel The Confidence Man, with its apposite line "one eye on the >>cosmos, the other on the main chance." But Adamski's actual >>writings - in truth ghostwritten at his direction by various >>associates - are as chloroform to the brain. >And, Jerry, there are some still out there in the ufological >hinterlands who are addicted to chloroform apparently, And I know of plenty who reside here in Brisbane, Queensland.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:15:36 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:22:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Redfern >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:21:33 +0200 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >Well, I suppose I could go on, but this is enough, >already, to understand that your story smells strongly of >disinformation. You are quite welcome to your opinion that this smells of disinformation. But as you know well, the fact is that I have _never_ dismissed the possibility of disinfo - and as you know very well as per my reply to Bob Durant's emailed questions. This is precisely why I am continuing to dig into all this and why I am spending my own dollars on a lengthy follow-up report. And it's also why I am flying to the National Archives to go through additional files in late September for 10 days, and why I am spend a considerable sum of money on motels and food, and travel, and airfare, and copying documents for that 10 days. I want the full, unexpurgated facts as much as anyone - regardless of where that truth is, and regardless of what that truth is. Personally - as I have said before - it is perhaps in some ways more the "body language" angle than the specific revelations themselves that leads me to believe the people are being genuine; so I stand by their claims and stand by the fact that all of them conceded that decades had gone by, and that there may have been certain aspects of the story that they could not recall. But testimony from 4 people all in their 80s who answered every question with unswerving accuracy and with complete answers for every question after - in some cases - 50 to 60 years - would be even more suspicious and _would_ hint of disinformation. All the indications I get are that these are people recalling their involvement in - or knowledge of - events as they recall
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Frison From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 21:33:20 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 08:51:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Frison >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:47:51 +1000 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >How did these strange women arrive and leave so suddenly? - a >phenomenon often reported in UFO abduction experiences. The >initial strange perception of the women by Peter Khoury (like he >was seeing himself through a transparent version of himself) was >rapidly replaced by the certainty for Peter Khoury that these >women were really present. The hair sample recovered and the DNA >results attest to that reality. Without that evidence it would >have been tempting to view the encounter in rather more non- >concrete terms - a vision, an apparition or a hallucination? >Given the evidence perhaps the visitors arrival was facilitated >by some phenomena such as what we might speculate as being >"teleportation". The whole incident involving the two women as told by Khoury has the same feeling as a strange incident I myself experienced, along with my wife, around the time of 1982. I was living on the third floor of an old and large apartment building on Victoria Road in Whitney Pier, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, and, I believe, it was winter time, in either January or February. We were both sound asleep and I was abrupty awakened by a loud, explosion-like sound that seemed to have occured within the (my) apartment. I remember lying there in bed, confused, and thinking to myself, "Sounds like someone just lifted that heavy, old- fashioned bathtub with the legs on it [that we had in the bathroom] right up to the ceiling and dropped it crashing to the floor." My wife was also lying there with the same puzzled expression on her face that I'm sure I had, and it was apparent that she had also been awakened by the noise. I then remember thinking to myself (still half-confused from being awakened in such a way) that, "That must be Da (my father) at the bottom of the stairwell, rapping on the door." He often left for work about 7:30 a.m. and stopped in at my place about 8:00 a.m. as he was passing by - for a chat or a quick cup of coffee or tea. Then, it dawned on me that "Cripes, it's only about 5:30 in the wee hours of the morning - Da wouldn't even be up yet let alone be banging on my door." Strange to say, despite that realization, I remember rolling over to face the wall, turning my back to my wife's very puzzled and worried face. As I rolled over, I remember she was lying flat on her back but had her head turned facing me. I remember no more than this, and, also strangely, never even brought the incident up with my wife the next day. However, she remained disturbed for several days and eventually broke down, crying. When I asked her what was wrong, she started hollering at me, "You've got to tell me what's going on because I can't take it no more." When I asked her to tell me why she was so upset, she began, "The other night in bed, I was woke up by a loud bang in the middle of the apartment." I said, "Yes, I remember that too. What of it?" This was the first time I even remembered the incident since it had happened - when she mentioned it. She continued crying and said, "Well, when you rolled over and faced the wall, something happened that has me terrified." She relates: "As soon as you rolled over, a man walked in through the bedroom doorway and walked straight to the foot of the bed, turning just his head to face me (my wife) as he walked to the foot of the bed." (She describes the man as being very short - about four feet tall - and an oriental type but not looking like a normal oriental. His hair was extremely straight and long - black in color - that flipped up in front and trailed down over the top of his head and down over his back, to his waist. He was wearing a one-piece, tannish-orange colored coverall that had a very wide black belt around the waist (no buckle, seemingly also one- pieced.) She continues: "I was going to shake you to deal with him but as soon as I thought it, I heard him say to me, "Don't try to move because you can't." I could hear his words but it wasn't with my ears; it was loud and clear him talking in my head. As soon as he said that, my entire body went numb and I couldn't move an inch. When this happened, I really started to panic and became terrified. I was about to scream to you but as soon as I was about to, I heard him say to me (again in my head ), "Don't try to scream because you can't" Instantly, my throat felt paralyzed and I couldn't make a sound. He then turned his head away from me like I didn't matter anymore and continued toward the foot of the bed. He didn't stop or slow down at any time as he was walking and 'talking', just turned his head and spoke the commands at me, loud and to the point, as he was walking to the foot of the bed. When he got there, he sat on the foot of the bed between your feet and my feet. His hair then fell forward and brushed against your hand which you had above the covers and laying along your side. When the hair touched your hand, you rolled around and faced him. Both of you stayed like that for a long time and I had the feeling you and him were communicating." I don't remember that part, or anything after I rolled over to face the wall. I asked her if it was possible she fell back to sleep and just dreamed the rest of the incident. She adamantly says, "Oh no! There wasn't time. It happened _as soon_ as you rolled over. Not even a one second delay. I was definitely very wide awake. He started walking into that room before you even finished rolling over. We were both still awake." She relates that she remembers being taken somewhere and seeing something fantastic, like a city. It's vague but she says she knows it happened. My wife was always a total skeptic about UFO's and even was one of the ones that used to ridicule me about them as a teen-ager. She hadn't read any UFO books nor did she have the slightest interest in them - always smirking if I mentioned my interests. Although we are divorced now (and have been since 1985), she says she believes in UFO's now. My son (in his early 20's now) asked her about the incident recently and she told him, "Oh yes ... I still remember it. Happened exactly like your father told you." My son further relates, "Ma says she really believes in UFO's now." In support of what she says, I can remember that the next day following the incident we both woke up in the middle of the afternoon, circa 2:30 p.m. - not around 8:00 a.m. as we usually did - despite the fact that we had a child only a couple of years old that should have gotten us up with cries for attention long before that afternoon hour. In retrospect, it's odd that I gave no consideration to this the next day. It's even odder if you consider that at the time of the incident she was very pregnant and couldn't go more than a couple of hours without waking and having to go to the bathroom, especially during sleep. All interesting but no proof is available to prove the physical reality of the incident. However, the fact remains: we both heard that unusual explosion in the middle of the apartment in the middle of the night, we both were awakened by it, we both remember facing each other and seeing each other's puzzled expressions, and we both remember me rolling over to face the wall. I can't vouch to what she says happened next but I can vouch for us both waking up late the next day (apparently our child did too) while she was very far along in her pregnancy. Anyway, the important connection I was going after with this is the oriental guy in the bedroom. My wife knew nothing about UFO's, had no interest in them, even laughed at them. Even I hadn't heard or known about orientals as part of the scene at the time. She was only about 20 years old then (I was a few years older than her). Why would she mention an oriental that didn't look like a normal oriental as you usually see them? Again, here we apparently have an 'oriental' person appearing in a bedroom in the middle of the night in strange ways! My apartment was locked at the time and remained so. The windows were frozen shut and it was on the third floor, to boot. There was nothing disturbed or out of place within the apartment despite the 'explosion' we both heard. So, I'm fascinated by the Khoury case. The oriental component in the case, because of my experience on Victoria Road in approximately 1982, deeply intrigues me. I didn't see the oriental dude (at least I can't remember seeing him) but I do know there was an anomalous event in the apartment that night, and I can support my wife's account to a certain point. Given that she accurately describes the events to a certain point as I remember them too, how can I justify dismissing the rest of her testimony, especially if the rest of it happened so fast after I started to roll over - and especially with the 'oriental' component, the one-piece coverall type clothing, the apparent 'telepathy' used to communicate, as she reports? Makes me wonder what really happened that night, considering she says the oriental guy and I were facing each other - him sitting and me reclining and involved in some sort of 'exchange' - while she was there helpless and paralyzed on the bed for an extended
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 17:59:52 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:01:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Redfern >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 20:45:14 EDT >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >Look at AFOSI agent Doty. Despite admitting to >"disinformation ops in the past" Doty is still believed by some >in the UFO community, as you well know, and still appears to >be spreading disinformation. But look at the time frame in which the Doty book came out - right around the same time frame as my book and Greg Bishop's book, both of which question key ingredients of the pro-UFO subject (well, key ingredients to some, at least), namely crashed alien spaceships; dead aliens; cattle mutes; underground bases; alien implants; alien-human collusion, etc. This is my point: if the data provided by me and Greg is proven to be correct, then it is _exactly now_ that we might see further "the aliens are here and they crashed" disinformation pumped out. Because me and Greg are "doing" things that threaten the real secrets, of a non-UFO nature. But this inevitably leads to the question: why would anyone want to feed me with anti-ET Roswell stories at a time (2001-4) when I wans't "doing" anything, and there were no new Roswell revelations of a pro-ET-nature on the horizon? That's where I have the problem. >Does this mean "Al Barker" and "Bill Salter" are fake names? >Whose name is real in the book now, among your insider >"sources"? Name changes from Simon & Schuster Legal: Mr. D; Mr. T; Levine. Name deletion from Simon & Schuster Legal: Colonel's boss. Name changes from me: Black Widow; Colonel. > >>>> >That was answered in the very next paragraphs, you should have >waited till then instead of splitting off my supporting points >into fragments in a divide-and-conquer strategy. I have no interest in dividing or conquering you or the UFO community - UFOs are not that important to where I would bother expending so much energy. I have much better things to do. UFOs are an interesting enigma that may prove - one day - to be of profound significance if _and only if_ ultimate and undeniable proof for the existence of the phenomena is forthcoming. Until then, we debate it to a few hundred (few thousand? Errol?) people on Updates and we sell a few thousand books here and there. And we lecture to audiences from a few dozen to a few hundred. So, I'm quite willing to debate the subject to the best of my ability, but let's keep things in perspective: me and you are arguing about a book that is being read by a UFO community that is ever-dwindling. The media could care less - until or unless ET lands. The public has fragmentary interest that occasionally rises but is usually very small. So, again, trying to divide and conquer your questions/you is such a low priority in the bigger scheme of life that I would not even begin to do it. >Shandera was a Hollywood tv producer and _not_ known to the UFO >community at large as being involved in any UFO research. Nor >had Shandera published _anything_, not a single report on >Roswell, or anything else, for MUFON or anyone else as of Dec >1984 when he received the MJ-12 film in his mailbox, or for >years to come. > But he _was_ working closely with Bill Moore, who was closely contacted with the Intel world, and who was delving deep into the Intel world and into Roswell. Remember too that at the time (80-85) there were no Roswell "cover" stories in place such as Mogul and the Dummies to keep the media quiet if Moore found something of significance and decided to reveal it. And I am quite sure those hiding the real picture of Roswell were highly concerned about what Moore and Shandera might uncover - unless they were diverted by disinformation. But the big difference I keep coming back to is that targeting me would be totally illogical because I wasn't researching anything that I needed to be diverted from. But, regardless of whether Roswell was ET, Japanese, Russian, or something else, Moore and Shandera _were_ digging, hence the reason why they were fed documents that sent them down another path and away from strictly just the Roswell case itself. >The only ones who knew that Shandera had an occasional >"clandestine meeting" as a sidekick to Bill Moore were the very >same AFOSI personnel Shandera was secretly meeting with and who >were running the disinformation operation, the same operation >your "sources" tell about in your book (pp. 82-84)! Exactly, so Shandera would be a perfect person to approach because he was tied up with Bill Moore and the Intel people at a very deep level doing research. I wasn't - at all. >You with your cloak-and-dagger meetings with "sources" such >as Mr. "Levine" and those at the remote cafe, may just be the >new Jaime Shandera. It could be, and me and you could debate it endlessly. You have your conclusions as to why you think that is so, and I have my conclusions as to why I think it is not so. I think that unless (or more likely until) we have the complete answer, we will differ. And continued debate on the _specific_ issue of disinformation people vs. genuine whistleblowers will only continue to go over old ground and round in circles. You'll have your opinions. I _won't_ have your opinions. >>Doesn't the Project Aquarius Executive Briefing sound like sheer >"stupidity" to you? Do you think Jesus Christ as an alien >visitor 2,000 years ago is a "smart" bit of content to put in a >report purportedly prepared for the President, one who as an >evangelical might take offense to such heretical nonsense? Yet >this twaddle was peddled by AFOSI in 1981-1983. Yes it was peddled - in my opinion to deflect Bill Moore away from his genuinely intriguing research into Roswell and into the carefully controlled avenue of faked documents, and have him endlessly chasing false documents, instead of chasing down old guys from Roswell who could perhaps significantly add to the story before they popped their clogs. But - again!! - no one needed to deflect me because I wasn't doing anything - Roswell, or otherwise!! >you mean you couldn't revive your UFO community contacts at any >time like you have now done??? Sure I could have. But with Levine, I didn't. I filed the story for years and did absolutely nothing with it. I listened to the Black Widow's story in 2001 and did nothing with it until 2005! Why the persistence of targeting me with disinformation when I systematically - and repeatedly - listened to the accounts, but did absolutely nothing with them for years? If this was disinfo, the people should have realized that I was not rushing to publish and should have moved on. They didn't. An indication to me that this is not disinformation, but just people wanting to set the record straight. >Did any of your disinformation >"sources" ever tell you this was how the disinfo ops were run??? Actually, yes, and more than you will ever know. Although all of the data that directly related to the 47 events is in the book, Salter told me a whole range of wonderfully wacky stories, including one how the Psychological Strategy Board planned to use a male prostitute to set up a famous Hollywood closet gay actor of the 1950s who had communist leanings and who apparently had learned of some severe law-breaking activities of people connected to McCarthy, reds-under-the-beds witch-hunts, etc. The PSB learned that the actor was planning on making this public, and so a plan was initiated to secretly film the "liaison" between the actor and the prostitute. Then the actor would be threatened: release the details of the law-violations re McCarthy, etc., and the film would be "leaked" to the media. The guy's career would be in ruins. It worked. Background on the whole way in which non-UFO Ops such as this were planned, initiated, run and sometimes aborted (and aborted for some _really_ odd reasons) was related to me in (at times) mind-numbingly boring detail. >>When a disinfo op against _you_ is suggested then you try to >come up with every possible excuse as to why _you_ are the only >one the disinfo professional liars are telling the truth to, and >_you_ are the only one who is not passing on disinformation from >them. No, I am pointing out that, as far as I can tell, the people who have been fed disinformation before such as Bill Moore (who was investigating Roswell and in touch with Intel people); Shandera (who was working deeply with Moore); Jenny Randles (who was fed pro-crashed UFO disinfo in 1986 while she was digging into the Rendlesham case and when she was looking into down-to-earth possibilities), and others, were all fed disinformation because they were actively digging into subjects that certain people wanted to keep them away from. I was digging into nothing. So, again, my situation was uniquely different from all of the above. That is my _only_ point. They were targeted because of their then-current research. As I have mentioned before, the _only_ reason that the Black Widow approached me was because she worked at Oak Ridge, and my "The FBI Files" book of 1998 included a chapter titled "The Oak Ridge Invasion" that was a study of documents on file with the FBI that detailed UFO sightings at Oak Ridge. As she told me, she felt comfortable talking about her Roswell knowledge with me because there was a bond - namely, her Oak Ridge employment and my chapter that detailed sightings in the _exact_ time she worked there. In other words, she felt comfortable talking with me. That to me, is far more in line with human nature than it is with the beginnings of planned disinformation. >Again how rational and perfect was the Aquarius Briefing forgery >of AFOSI? Or the Ellsworth "shooting of the alien" fraud of >AFOSI? Evidently the Aquarius garbage was overhauled and >polished into a much more professional product the next time >around. With the "garbage" comment I agree. >>It's like the con man testifying in court that the story he told >last week was a lie but now he is telling the truth! Your >"sources," admitted professional psych war disinformation >specialists, are like that. But it could allso be argued - with equal justification - that the literal scenario is the correct one: these people worked on disinfo ops in the 50s and 60s and - now in their 80s - want to set the record straight. >I predict you will shoot back and nitpick that when you had said >your UFO community contacts were at their "absolute lowest" that >you _of course_ meant a number more like 2% or 1% or _whatever_. Nope, figures aren't important; and I find it genuinely baffling how someone might even begin to put a figure on it anyway! To clarify: in my 1999 book Cosmic Crashes, on the last page, I said that my work was "now over." From late 1999 on, all I did for the Birdsall's mag (my main outlet for UFO articles) were book reviews and a "Tourists Guide to Roswell." Even after meeting the Black Widow in 2001, I did not have a UFO book published until 2005. I stand by what I said: the approach to me (done when I was out the subject) is manifestly different to that of Moore, Shandera, Randles, etc., when they were all deeply probing into significant cases and had to be diverted. But as I also said unless (or actually until) we have a full understanding of _all_ the various whistleblowers, story- tellers, witnesses, informants re. Roswell, you and me, Brad, are not going to agree and we can continue to go around in circles re the merits of whether or not I was dis-informed or this was people revealing the facts as they recalled them.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Interesting UFO Tidbit - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 22:13:07 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:04:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Interesting UFO Tidbit - Velez >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 13:58:25 -0300 >Subject: Interesting UFO Tidbit >Dear List: >As an item of interest, I thought I would pass on something I >learned in a conversation with one of my brothers after I bumped >into him while shopping in the mall yesterday. Hi Eugene, Got one for you... In 1987 I worked as a graphic artist for one of the largest printing companies in New York city. This sighting I'm going to share with you happened on a sunny, clear day with beautiful blue skies and just a few pillowy clouds scattered about here and there. Very calm sky. On this particular day three of us were sitting in the office of one the company's VPs waiting for a 'rush' job from an important client. Present was one of the VPs, a cameraman and myself. The office was located on the 11th floor of 250 Hudson Street which faces/ runs parallel to, the Hudson River. Spectacular view (on any clear day) of the river and New Jersey on the far shore. The building was just a few blocks north of the Trade Center. You can see it in post cards of the New York skyline that show the Trade Center buildings. The cameraman and myself were seated in front of the VPs desk facing him and a bank of tall, picture windows that ran the entire length of the office. We were just killing time cracking jokes and half-heartedly discussing the job, when suddenly the cameraman jumps up, points to the sky and almost shouts, "What the Hell is that?!!!" We all looked in the direction he was pointing. In the sky, just slightly north of us, and moving in a south westerly direction across the river was an -enormous- disc. It was _perfectly_ circular. The bottom of the disc, and part of the upper trailing edge, was all we could see. The bottom was covered in roiling clouds of gas. The gas was churning underneath it, clinging close to the bottom of it. The veep had a pair of binoculars in his desk. He grabbed them and put them up to his eyes. His first comment was, "There's grey metal under the steam. It's made of metal." We all watched this thing as it slowly crossed the river. Just as it got half way across the river it started to stand up 'on edge' and 'roll away' like an incredibly enormous coin. By the time it reached the New Jersey shore, it had changed color from the misty whitish/grey steam, to a bright glowing orange that looked like flame. As it rolled away across the sky it became engulfed in orange flames. The flames started coming off the trailing edge as it went. The color was a quite striking and distinctive 'flaming' orange. It was just freaky to see something so very large and perfectly round just rolling away into the distance looking like an enormous coin engulfed in flames. I have _two_ sober, honest and reputable co-witnesses to that one. Incredible world we live in. I wish all of you had been standing right beside us. We wouldn't need a 'List' - other than to compare notes.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 22:30:15 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:08:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Sparks >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:46:32 -1000 >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:23:39 EDT >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC <snip> >>>>>>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>>>>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:05:24 -1000 >>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC ><snip> >>>>>>>>http://www.cia.gov/csi/kent_csi/docs/v03i4a05p_0003.htm >>>>>>>>Certainly, Cutler was clear about the role played by the "NSC >>>>>>>>Operations Coordinating Board." Cutler viewed it as integral >>>>>>>>part of the NSC system and part of the NSC itself. >Notice that Cutler nowhere says that the OCB was an integral >part of the NSC "throughout its entire history 1953-1961" as you >claimed in a previous posting. Cutler does not put dates like >"1953-1961" on his organizational titles, his account is very >generalized. He's talking about the idealized functioning of OCB >and the NSC at the end not the detailed history up to that >point. >Cutler does not mention Jackson's reports in 1954 and 1956 >critical of the OCB's powerlessness and Eisenhower's 1957 >Executive Order rectifying that by merging the OCB into the NSC. >Cutler's failure to mention the profound shortcomings of the NSC >and OCB under his tenure are not surprising since it would >reflect badly on his own performance, something you have trouble >understanding. Since Cutler omits to mention the Jackson reports >and the President's Executive Order merging OCB into the NSC, >Cutler's historical remarks cannot possibly qualify as a valid >detailed history. >Your "revisionist history" trashes the Eisenhower Executive >Order as a needless exercise because you allege, contrary to all >credible evidence, that the OCB was doing just fine and was >already part of the NSC "functionally." What a joke! >Talk about absurd euphemisms, the OCB was NOT "functioning" >and that's why it had to be fixed. You twist this history to its >polar opposite of the truth just to rescue your phony UFO >"whistleblower" (actually leaker and fabricator) Corso who >repeatedly lied to say he had been an illustrious "NSC Member" >or on the highly impressive "NSC Staff" but usually forgot to >even mention the OCB. >Contrary to your desperate "revisionist" inventions, the OCB did >not "evolve" into a closer and closer relationship to the NSC, >but remained in the same static ineffectual position of pleading >for "voluntary cooperation" from government departments in 1954 >when Jackson complained that this system was not working (and >that the OCB needed to be made a part of the NSC), as it did in >1956 when Jackson continued to complain that OCB was not working >and needed to made a part of the NSC. >Same in 1954 as in 1956, the OCB was not working because it was >_not_ part of the NSC and thus did not have the NSC's authority >to enforce compliance with directives, as Jackson reported to >the President. You just flatly evade these facts. >Under OCB's founding charter, Eisenhower's Executive Order >10483, the OCB had no independent power or authority to order >any agency to comply with its wishes or the NSC's directives. >The OCB could only "advise the agencies concerned" and >"initiate... proposals." >You cannot produce a shred of evidence that, prior to its merger >with the NSC, the OCB could order departments and agencies to >act and could enforce its own orders. Notice that you cannot respond to my point (above) and you have produced exactly _zero_ evidence that the OCB could issue orders instead of impotently begging for "voluntary cooperation" - until at long last OCB merged with the NSC under the President's legal authority, the administrative law of an Eisenhower Executive Order in 1957. You have gone through numerous desperate theories to try to falsify and deny the executive law of the land that merged the OCB into the NSC in 1957 only _after_ Corso had left in 1956 and was long gone. Corso was on the OCB staff only from 1953 to 1956 (I now have OCB documents thanks to one veteran researcher that help fill in the picture on Corso's background chronology). Corso was never on the "NSC Staff" at any time according to his own military records and now OCB documents, contrary to Corso's later lies. OCB documents on Corso do not describe OCB as part of the NSC. Nor do OCB documents refer to Corso as serving on the "NSC Staff" by virtue of working for the OCB. One would not even know that Corso had anything to do with the NSC from the OCB documents. There is no mention in the OCB documents, or anywhere else such as on this list and from my own research, where Corso is described as working on an NSC policy in the 50's. Where then is any evidence of actual "NSC Staff" work by Corso in the 50's? Corso's OCB work was in an intelligence agency liaison capacity for the OCB which mostly involved writing up propaganda materials (like the old days when Corso worked on the staff of OCB's predecessor the Psychological Strategy Board, PSB). Hardly the stuff of high-falutin NSC policy development and "coordination"! Corso's successor on the OCB tried to line up a new propaganda- writing job for him at other agencies at the end of Corso's OCB tour of duty, and described Corso's work at the OCB in a Sept 7, 1956, memo as follows: "While on the OCB staff [NOTE no mention of "NSC staff"] Corso has been largely involved on the OCB Psychological Warfare Program generally and specifically in the preparation of unclassified propagandistic information briefs for the support of the United States delegation at the United Nations." No mention of Corso and the NSC or doing anything for the NSC! Just writing up unclassified propaganda. Let's see documents showing Corso attending any NSC meetings (so far as I can see there are none because Corso evidently never attended a single NSC meeting in his life!). First you tried to just blatantly state the falsehood, that the OCB was always a part of the NSC. Then I refuted you by citing EO 10700, which proved "formally" by executive law (de jure) that the OCB had been "independent" of the NSC up until that time 1957 (as of course the founding executive law had set it up to be, in 1953, as "independent" from the NSC, though reporting to and advising the NSC in efforts to "coordinate" national security policies just like the "independent" CIA reported to and "coordinated" matters for the NSC). Then you tried to assert that the OCB was "informally" always a part of the NSC (de facto). Then I refuted you by citing the Jackson reporting that had led Eisenhower to merge the OCB into the NSC. Jackson said, and the President agreed, this was necessary in order for the OCB to be able to use its new NSC status to command departmental compliance. Thus even "informally" the day-to-day "de facto" reality of the OCB prior to its NSC merger was that it did not get even "informal" treatment as an "NSC" staff from the other agencies of government but was basically ignored when it (the OCB) got in the way of the national security departments and agencies. Then you tried to float the phony idea that the OCB was "functionally" always a part of the NSC. Then I flushed that hogwash down by showing that "functionally" the OCB did not "function" and was an ineffectual paper-pushing paper- tiger agency that required merging with the NSC to get some clout from being able to say for the first time it, the OCB, was part of the NSC, and only then would have the NSC's power to order compliance. Even so, under Kennedy the "bloated" NSC structure, including especially the still rather ineffective OCB, was abolished in early 1961 as a holdover from the Ike era that did not work. You ignore all the historical comment and documents from the Kennedy era on the inherited sloth and waste found in the "bloated" Eisenhower NSC. For example you omit to mention the following from the very same breezy NSC history on the White House website, with its rather self-serving glossing over of past NSC failures, but which nonetheless admitted the following NSC bureaucratic weaknesses in the Eisenhower era which prove that the OCB still did not "function" even when within the NSC: http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/history.html#eisenhower "Critics of the Eisenhower NSC system have argued that it was inflexible, overstaffed, ... and weighed down by committees [such as the OCB after 1957] reporting in great detail on long checklists of minor policy concerns. "The most thorough critique of the system emerged from the hearings conducted in 1960-1961 by the Senate Subcommittee on National Policy Machinery, known as the Jackson Subcommittee for its chairman, Senator Henry Jackson. Cutler and ... James Lay testified in support of the effectiveness of the system, but their testimony was offset by that of former Truman administration officials such as George Kennan, Paul Nitze, and Robert Lovett. They argued that foreign policy was being made by a passive President influenced by a National Security Council rendered virtually useless by ponderous, bureaucratic machinery. "Basically, they argued, the NSC was a huge committee, and suffered from all the weaknesses of committees. Composed of representatives of many agencies, its members were not free to adopt the broad, statesmanlike attitude desired by the President, but, rather, were ambassadors of their own departments, clinging to departmental rather than national views. "To make matters worse, critics added, the NSC system by its very nature was restricted to continuing and developing already established policies and was incapable of originating new ideas or major innovations. The critics suggested replacement of the formal, 'over-institutionalized' NSC structure with a smaller, less formal NSC which would offer the President a clear choice of alternatives on a limited number of major problems.... "President Kennedy, who was strongly influenced by the report of the Jackson Subcommittee and its severe critique of the Eisenhower NSC system, moved quickly at the beginning of his administration to deconstruct the NSC process.... In a very short period after taking office, the new President moved to reduce the NSC staff ... and hold NSC meetings much less frequently while sharply curtailing the number of officers attending. The Operation Coordination [sic] Board was abolished...." Historian Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., who served on Kennedy's White House staff commented in an article on And "functionally," in the sense of how the OCB organizational structurewas set up to function, the legal facts of the matter as I have already proven many times over was that the OCB was explicitly set up by Executive Order only to "advise" and to "propose" coordination of national security policies as a separate agency "independent" of the NSC, just like the CIA (see EO 10483). The OCB did not function as an "arm of the NSC" at all prior to 1957 as it could not issue orders in the name of the NSC, all it could do was "advise" and "propose." Yet as I have stressed over and over again, CIA employees do not get to lie on their resume's like Corso and claim glorious and impressive high-level service on the illustrious "NSC Staff" just because the CIA "coordinates" and "advises" for the NSC, just like the OCB "coordinates" and "advises" for the NSC. You then deceitfully nitpicked my CIA argument by quoting a post-9/11 present-day 2005 version of the 1947 law that created the CIA, instead of the 1947 version that actually applied in the 50's which said the CIA "advises" and "coordinates" for the NSC just like the OCB. Then you grasped at the thin straws of a few scattered references which you took grossly out of context that referred to the OCB/NSC in its final days when the OCB was really part of NSC, which proves nothing as to Corso's days at the OCB when it was _not_ part of the NSC. Your equally grasping-at-straws 1992 Congressional hearing reference - from a bio that Corso himself no doubt supplied to the committee staff - was so laughably inaccurate and unchecked for either facts or spelling that it misspells Corso's first name with 2 L's in "Phillip." That was how good a job that Congressional staff did on the current spelling of Corso's name, easily checked, and yet you would have us blindly accept this same committee's alleged authority and expertise on the facts (mis)stated by Corso claiming he had served on the "NSC Staff." Corso had a longstanding habit of inflating and misrepresenting the importance of his job assignments by inserting "NSC" and even the "White House" into his bios. In testimony on the POW issue to the House Subcommittee on Military Personnel on Sept. 17, 1996, Corso falsely stated in his written prepared statement that on his return to the U.S. from Korea in 1953: "I [Corso] was assigned to the Operations Coordinating Board (OCB) of the White House, National Security Council" Notice Corso has forgotten all about the PSB staff that he was actually "assigned" to in 1953 before the OCB even came into existence! Corso footnoted his prepared statement with false citations to "White House Operations Coordination [sic] Board (OCB)" documents, which do not say any such thing about a "White House OCB" (as another Corso footnote claimed, which I am also quoting here both verbatim). Are you now going to mount a huge campaign of falsification of history to claim the OCB was also a part of the White House too, as well as "part of" the NSC??? Sheesh, what fabulous government agency was the OCB _not_ a "part of"??? You misreference an FBI memo from 1965 almost a decade after Corso left the OCB and ignore the earlier FBI memo in 1965 that stated that Corso's old Army boss Gen. Trudeau had been the one to supply the "OCB/NSC staff" job title for Corso, not the FBI from its own sources. Yet you continue to cite this as an "FBI" prooftext to support Corso when the info actually came from the Army. And as head of Army R&D, Gen. Trudeau was no expert on NSC history either, his department had no NSC "national security policy" function, and no reason to interact with either the OCB or the NSC. It was Research and Development! Since when was J. Edgar Hoover's FBI an expert in NSC history and organization anyway? Finally now you have resorted to the last in your bag of tricks of buttkissing apologetics for Corso where you claim that the OCB was part of the "fluid ... NSC system" - as if by inserting a new word "system" into the equation you can overturn all the legal, factual, and historical proof that OCB was never a part of the NSC while Corso was there. >>To the contrary there is >>indisputable proof from Jackson's reports, and those of other >>agencies and consultants, who found OCB could not enforce >>compliance and that the system was not working because OCB was >>independent of the NSC and not a part of the NSC. Those experts >>on the scene in the 50's found that the OCB's separate-from-NSC >>status was what needed to be changed, and it was changed - after >>Corso left. <snip> Now your objections are interesting in the way you spin these to support your case. You first refer to the historian William Jackson and his 1954 and 1956 recommendations to have the OCB formally incorporated into the NSC. You claim that this is historical evidence supporting your case, and that Jackson was more reliable than Cutler who was biased because the latter actually served on the OCB and wanted to gloss over his failures. Basically, you are saying that a historian/advisor knew better how the OCB functioned by reading a set of historical documents, than one of the key people serving on it who was no less that Eisenhower's Special Assistant. What's worth emphasizing is that the NSC under Eisenhower was a collection of different agencies and committees that worked in way that was constantly evolving and was described at the time as the 'NSC system'. The actual national security experts on the NSC in the 50's said the NSC was not constantly "evolving" but was a stagnant, bloated, moribund bureaucracy, asleep at the wheel like its Chief Executive. You just obstinately refuse to read your own references, as that superficial NSC history you keep referring to also said that the NSC under Eisenhower was criticized for being So the OCB was part of the NSC system which was very fluid and nuanced in the various committees and agencies it had attached to it. So while you may argue that the NSC comprised only the cabinet level officials that sat on it with the President, Secretary of State, etc., the NSC was much more extensive and loosely organized and comprised agencies/committee such as the OCB. The proof for this is in the following extract from the official White House history of the NSC which can be read online. Source: http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/history.html#eisenhower "The genesis of the new NSC system was a report prepared for the President in March 1953 by Robert Cutler, who became the President's Special Assistant for National Security Affairs. Cutler proposed a systematic flow of recommendation, decision, and implementation that he later described as the "policy hill" process. At the bottom of the hill, concerned agencies such as State and Defense produced draft policy recommendations on specific topics and worked for consensus at the agency level. These draft NSC papers went up the hill through the Planning Board, created to review and refine the recommendations before passing them on for full NSC consideration. The NSC Planning Board met on Tuesday and Friday afternoons and was composed of officials at the Assistant Secretary level from the agencies with permanent or standing representation on the Council, as well as advisers from the JCS and CIA. Hundreds of hours were spent by the Board reviewing and reconstructing proposed papers for the NSC. Cutler resigned in 1958 in exhaustion. The top of the foreign policy-making hill was the NSC itself, chaired by the President, which met regularly on Thursday mornings. The Council consisted of the five statutory members: the President, Vice President, Secretaries of State and Defense, and Director of the Office of Defense Mobilization. Depending on the subject under discussion, as many as a score of other senior Cabinet members and advisers, including the Secretary of the Treasury, the Chairman of the JCS, and the Director of Central Intelligence, attended and participated. The agenda included regular briefings by the Director of Central Intelligence on worldwide developments affecting U.S. security, and consideration of the policy papers advanced by the Planning Board. The upshot of the discussions were recommendations to the President in the form of NSC Actions. The President, who participated in the discussion, normally endorsed the NSC Action, and the decision went down the hill for implementation to the Operations Coordinating Board. President Eisenhower created the Operations Coordinating Board (OCB) to follow up on all NSC decisions. The OCB met regularly on Wednesday afternoons at the Department of State, and was composed of the Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, Deputy Secretary of Defense, the Directors of CIA, USIA, and ICA, and the Special Assistants to the President for National Security Affairs and Security Operations Coordination. The OCB was the coordinating and implementing arm of the NSC for all aspects of the implementation of national security policy. NSC action papers were assigned to a team from the OCB for follow- up. More than 40 interagency working groups were established with experts for various countries and subjects. This 24-person staff of the OCB supported these working groups in which officials from various agencies met each other for the first time." "The President's Special Assistant for National Security Affairs, a post held under Eisenhower by Cutler [<--NOTE], Dillon Anderson, William H. Jackson [<--NOTE!!!!], and Gordon Gray...." http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/history.html#eisenhower ... your argument is quite weak and does not sustain your very strong claim that Corso lied.... Your description of him as a liar is a travesty.... >I have made my case and will leave it to others to continue this >thread if they wish.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 The UFO Blog Coalition From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 21:34:31 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:13:39 -0400 Subject: The UFO Blog Coalition I just wanted to take this opportunity for a shameless plug of The UFO Blog Coalition(UBC) and it's members. We have now grown to 27 blogs. Each day I do a summary of current entries to member blogs which can be found at: http://ufocoalition.blogspot.com The homepage is http://ubc.terrygroff.com If you have a blog that you would like to have included, visit: http://add.blog.terrygroff.com and fill out the short form. I don't play favorites with membership. When I receive (and approve) your submission I will send you an invitation to be a contributing member to the UBC Blog itself. You will then be able to post directly to the UBC blog and your own blog postings will be summarized there daily. The UBC is kind of a one-stop-shop for UFO related blogs. Instead of having to visit each blog, you can see at a glance who has new postings and who hasn't. Here is a master list of all current member blogs and a partial list of members ( the ones whose names I know) BLOGS: (alphabetical) AionBlog - http://aionblog.com/ Alien Universe - http://alienuniverse.blogspot.com/ AUFORN - http://auforn.blogspot.com/ Cydonian Imperative - http://cydonianimperative.blogspot.com/ MUFON DFW - http://mufondfw.blogspot.com/ Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est - http://frankwarren.blogspot.com/ Other Side Of Truth - http://redstarfilms.blogspot.com/ OZ Files - http://theozfiles.blogspot.com/ Posthuman Blues - http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com/ re: unidentified flying objects - http://ofsaucers.blogspot.com/ RRRGroup - http://rrrgroup.blogspot.com/ Scoop Jupiter - http://scoopjupiter.blogspot.com/ Skywatch International - http://skywatch-international.blogspot.com/ Super UFO Action - http://superufo.blogspot.com/ UFO Alliance - http://ufoa.blogspot.com/ UFO Collective - http://ufoc.blogspot.com/ UFO Disinfo R Us - http://rickdotyismygod.blogspot.com/ UFO Bits - http://ufobits.blogspot.com/ UFO Inquiry - http://ufoinquiry.blogspot.com/ UFO Reflections - http://www.uforeflections.blogspot.com/ UFO Secrecy - http://aboveblack.blogspot.com/ UFO Tools - http://ufotools.blogspot.com/ UFO Voice - http://ufovoicedownunder.blogspot.com/ Ufology - http://ufology.blogspot.com/" target="_blank Ufology Research - http://uforum.blogspot.com/ Weird Events - http://weirdevents.blogspot.com/ Zorgrot Speaks - http://zorgrot.blogspot.com/ Contributing Members: (alphabetical by last name) Bill Chalker Sheryl Gottschall Terry Groff Diane Harrison Jim Hickman Brad Hirn Christopher Jay Paul Kimball Kyle King Isaac Koi Stefano Landi R. Lee Norman Miller Stuart Miller Rich Reynolds Chris Rutkowski Ron Tatro Mac Tonnies Frank Warren Pay us a visit
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:16:59 +1000 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:16:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon - Chalker >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:43:27 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon ><snip> While likewise I look forward to examining an English translation of this Fatima study, research I first came across years ago in an FSR article by Joaquim Fernandes, I need to comment on the following: >Unlike crops circles or physical evidence cases (such as the >alien blonde hair strands that Bill Chalker and Whitley Strieber >obtained and sent out for testing) where no UFOs are ever >sighted... Whitley Strieber was not involved in the case you refer to here - namely Peter Khoury's 1992 recovery of hair samples, documented in my book "Hair of the Alien". However I just finished a prerecorded interview for Whitley Strieber's Dreamland radio show, about the case, because he has just read my book. In the above comment you argue that the "alien" hair evidence and Peter Khoury's 1992 case has no direct correlation with the UFO phenomenon. While there was no evidence of a UFO hovering over the house for this event, there is the matter of context. This experience is certainly explicitedly connected to the alien abduction phenomenon and is part of a series of experiences, with include: 1964 - Lebanon - Peter Khoury's mother while nursing him at 28 days old has a strange encounter with a tall blonde haired man 1971 - Lebanon - Peter Khoury with other children has a strange encounter with an object with 2 people inside. Missing time involved along with strange mark on the leg. 1988, February - Sydney, Australia - Khoury & his partner have a UFO sighting 1988, July - Sydney, Australia - Khoury has an abduction experience involving a needle probe, grey beings and short squat creature - he has a scoop mark on his leg & a head wound related to the needle insertion. 1992 July - Sydney, Australia - Khoury has his bizarre encounter with the 2 strange women - one blonde haired nordic looking, the other dark hair Asian looking. He recovers a hair sample, which gets DNA tested by my APEG team - unusual DNA sequences found. 1992 November - Sydney, Australia - another abduction encounter transported through a mirror - scoop mark found. His has also had other UFO sightings including one sequence of photos he took of an interesting daylight multiple witnesses observation. In the case of the 1992 encounter the 2 women appear and disappear from a locked house under bizarre circumstances - "teleportation", whatever, apparitional, hallucination??, however, we need to reconcile the physical evidence of the unusual DNA sequence which comes clear from a very unusual donor - "alien"? I see this as clearly related to the UFO mystery, unless you feel that the numerous reports of "aliens" - both "greys", "nordics" etc are totally unrelated to the UFO phenomenon, and the UFOs operate without occupants? While you have little argument from me that the English "crop circle" variant has nothing to do with the UFO phenomenon, the 1992 Khoury encounter clearly does. My detailed case for that is presented in "Hair of Alien", and in summary form on my web site. Regards, Bill Chalker http://theozfiles.blogspot.com www.theozfiles.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 22:37:56 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:18:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars - Fleming >From: Brett Holman <bholman.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 00:20:18 +1000 >Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >>To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:26:22 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Ice Lake Found On Mars >>Anyone who doubts that an extreme bias against life on Mars >>pervades the planetary science community should read Barry >>DiGregorio's book, _Mars the Living Planet_. The book gives a >>detailed account of what happened to the Dr. Gil Levin, >>principal investigator for the Labeled Release experiment, for >>his refusal to accept the official conclusion that his LR >>experiment had detected an inorganic chemical reaction and not >>signs of life. This was not a genteel disagreement among >>scholars. Levin likened his experience to being treated like a >>"non-person" as were political dissidents in the Soviet Union. >Bitterness and hyperbole are no guarantors of truth. Maybe he's >right about the interpretation of the labelled release! Levin may feel he has reason for some bitterness. He's in his 80's now and he probably doesn't expect to see any further biological investigations of Mars in his lifetime, thanks to NASA's foot dragging. However, for the most part, Levin has shown a surprising amount of patience. For example, he's patiently addressed the criticisms you raise about how the reaction rate in the LR experiment dropped off after more nutrient was introduced (some terrestrial organisms show the same response). Levin also thinks there were some fairly serious problems with the other experiments on the VIking lander that might explain their lack of positive results. But since Levin is in fact regarded as a virtual non-person, his former scientific colleagues apparently believe that they can ignore his counter- arguments. But these questions were all addressed quite some time ago in DiGregorio's book and in Levin's articles on his web site. >But the >thing is, he can't prove it. He can be as bitter as he likes, >but he'll have to await the verdict of history. Unfortunately, >science is like that sometimes, just ask Alfred Wegener. (And >Levin isn't helping his case by opposing a Mars sample return >mission - on safety grounds - we'd have all the evidence we >needed then, one way or the other.) He isn't hurting his case, either. At best, the sample return mission is pie in the sky by and by -- a very expensive mission to be conducted at some unspecified future date. Since Levin believes his experiment did show there was life on Mars, his concerns about contamination of Earth with extraterrestrial microbes is understandable. >>It would have been understandable if NASA really had erred on >>the side of caution, as you say. They could have just announced >>the fact that the LR results satisfied all of the previously >>agreed-upon criteria for life, and then added that they were >>unwilling to conclude on that basis that life had really been >>detected. >>They could have taken the reasonable position that >>additional experiments carried by _future_ Mars probes were >>needed to decide whether the Viking results were really >>indications of life or merely inorganic chemical reactions of >>the sort that were proposed. That certainly would be what they >>would have done if there were any truth to the old argument that >>NASA would "love" to find life on Mars because it would be good >>for their budget. >Well, that's assuming that scientists are fundamentally dishonest >and only conclude whatever nets them the most money. >Since they didn't >do this, you further seem to assume they are dishonest but have some >(unspecified) reason to deny the possibility of life on Mars. What >reason do you think they can have? I do not assume they are dishonest; I _conclude_ they are biased based upon their past actions (and inactions). There's a very huge difference between bias and dishonesty. >Here's another possibility... call me naive, but maybe they >honestly think that the best interpretation of the Viking >labelled release experiment is that it wasn't caused by life! Of course they believe that. People will often choose to believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts, and scientists are not necessarily exceptions. >I find it hard to believe that somebody like Carl Sagan - who >yearned his entire life to find extraterrestrial life - would >_not_ give every possible benefit of the doubt to Levin's >interpretation. Too bad Sagan didn't yearn hard enough to publicly call for additional biological experiments to be sent to Mars. >And according to Keay Davidson's biography of >Sagan, he did. With so many biases in favour of wanting to find >life (and in part I'm speaking from personal experience here), I >have to assign heavy weight to the fact that so many scientists >have concluded that it hasn't yet been found. The evidence just >isn't there. That's like the old joke that "a billion Chinese can't be all wrong." I personally assign no weight at all to the fact that scientists, no matter how many, line up obediently behind this superoxide theory for which there is zero direct evidence. The problem isn't that the superoxide theory was proposed; the problem is that it was accepted so credulously that no further Mars biology experiments were deemed necessary after Viking. >>The Viking results gave them a (literally) >>golden opportunity for a bigger budget for Mars exploration. >Golden opportunity? Viking came at the end of the end of the >first era of planetary exploration for NASA, which launched no >space probes to the planets between the late 1970s and the late >1980s. NASA's budget was mainly eaten up by Shuttle operations. >There was no golden opportunity. The Viking labeled release experiments at the very least offered the intriguing possibility of life on Mars. If that wasn't a golden opportunity for NASA to engage the public's interest in Mars exploration, it's hard to think of anything else that has come close. It's unlikely that JPL's fascination with rocks will do the trick. As Bill Maher observed, martian rocks look uncannily similar to the sort of rocks one will find on the drive to Las Vegas. >>But no Mars probe after Viking and up to the present time has >>carried any biology experiments. >So given the extreme bias you claim exists against even >performing any biology experiments, why is the next NASA Mars >lander (due for launch in 2007) going to do just that? >http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/science/objectives.php Well, this is how many years after Viking? Almost thirty? Not exactly a quick follow up to the Viking probes of the late 1970s. And if you read that Phoenix web page closely, you might notice that there don't actually seem to be any biology experiments planned. The web page says: "Phoenix will dig deep enough into the soil to analyze the soil environment potentially protected from UV looking for organic signatures and potential habitability." Looking for "organic signatures" just sounds like more of the same beating around the bush as with the current rovers. A tiny little baby step once every decade or so but never any actual search for life planned in the foreseeable future. >Not to forget the Mars Science Laboratory (2009 launch): >http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/future/msl.html >I will say this though - it does seem puzzling that there's >apparently been no effort to find the "superoxides", other than >telescopic searches for H2O2 (which failed). It's certainly one >of the first things I'd look for. There are other non-biological >theories, but they should all be tested. And it looks like >Phoenix will go some way towards doing that.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:10:04 +1000 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:25:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon - Chalker >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:43:27 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon <snip> >Unlike crops circles or physical evidence cases (such as the >alien blonde hair strands that Bill Chalker and Whitley Strieber >obtained and sent out for testing) where no UFOs are ever >sighted... Further to my previous post on this thread - a correction: "1992 November - Sydney, Australia - another abduction encounter transported through a mirror - scoop mark found." This experience of Peter Khoury occurred in 1996 not 1992. Another important point about the blonde "nordic" woman was her very unusual facial features. She had a very pronounced sharp angular face with a poined chin and very large prominent eyes, which Peter Khoury thought were 2 to 3 times the size of normal human eyes. It was this markedly odd appearance and the bizarre nature of the encounter that caused Khoury to immediately connect this with his UFO/alien abduction milieu. Her over all appearance was similiar to the blonde woman encountered by Antonio Villas-Boas in 1957 in Brazil, where a UFO was reported. Such blonde haired "nordic" women have been widely reported in UFO and alien abduction contexts.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Contactee Taboo - Goldstein From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 00:18:23 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:28:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Goldstein >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <UFOUpdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:36:57 +1000 >Subject: Contactee Taboo >Something that has been troubling me for a while is the current >lack of interest in the contactees of the 1950s and 60s era. <snip> >I think it's important that the contactees be re-examined now we >have the advantage of 50 years of hindsight to call on. Added to >this, the contactees are the only people who offer any real >insights to other civilizations, their lifestyles and their >intentions. Abductees tell us far less. Sheryl, You are talking about contactee stories. These are stories lacking any evidence to prove the claims of contactees. In the UFO field there are thousands of stories. Stories are just personal tales that require real evidence before being believed by anyone who uses critical thinking. That is exactly what separates "unthinking believers" from healthy skeptics who require evidence to believe such claims. The quality of the evidence is determined by standards long established in the journalism, legal, and scientific fields. >What I don't understand is why contactees have been so >consistently persecuted, ridiculed, criticised, abused and >ignored. Only people who were vindicated by history have >typically received so much adverse attention. Your last sentence in the above paragraph is an assumption on your part. >I can understand why Adamski was given such a hard time in his >day as he made statements that ETs were from Mars, Venus and >Jupiter and any "smart" person knew that life could not exist on >those planets. But given that today we understand ET technology >is far in advance of our own and our own science has progressed, >albeit ever so slightly, surely such things need to be >reconsidered. >My concern is that I am now coming across the next generation of >UFO interested people here in Australia who are not afforded the >knowledge of these contactees and what they had to offer, and >still do. I ask, have you heard of George Adamski, George Hunt >Williamson, Daniel Fry etc? 9 times out of 10 they say no. I >can't help but feel they are getting an unbalanced view of the >UFO phenomena and this is not the sort of legacy I want to >leave. As far as I am concerned it would be good to let them know that in the UFO field there have been many people with such tales but it takes evidence to make claims believable. It would be advised to teach them rational logic and critical thinking. <snip> >Instead of trying to communicate with us in a friendly way, we >now have to deal with strange-looking aliens who seem to know >how to make good use of us as a convenient variety of guinea-pig >for their research work, especially since they have discovered >how easily many of us can be hypnotized. You are making your personnel assumption that extraterrestrials are real, are interacting with humans, and using humans for nefarious purposes. The dreamer in you would like to believe that the stories of benevolent aliens are better stories. I believe that there have been sightings of UFOs as craft that seem to possess capabilities beyond which we are aware. But I don't believe there is any evidence of extraterrestrials or their contacts with humans beyond unproven personal claims. >Those faint signs of a new dawn on our horizon, perceived and >acted on not only by Adamski, have almost disappeared. There is >no longer any reason for these friendly groups to wait endlessly >in the wings for a sign of welcome on the stage. And they do not >need us, to be sure. Yet I do not think that all of them have >left; some may still be around, undetected - and depressingly >silent. I believe this is just wishful "dreamer" belief on your part. To me this seems incredibly naive. Do you also believe the tales of channelers, New Agers, and self appointed "prophets"? >After half a lifetime's work with George Adamski, I want to >point out how silly it can be to discard a man's story just for >its strangeness, a man's photograph for its novelty, a man's >description for its unintelligibility. Man is by nature a >searcher. Is it not better to make the best of what Adamski has >left us in his admittedly often cryptic material? Maybe we shall >discover new sources of propulsion - for our brain cells if >nothing else! What a challenge for the young generation!" Please learn to use critical thinking methods to determine truth or falsehood. If you like the tale first investigate to see if there is any evidence to stories that make claims without the support of evidence. Claims without evidence deserve to be put into a gray basket overflowing with millions of tales waiting for evidence before emerging into reality. You are entitled to believe whatever you wish. I am writing this because you want to pass UFO information to a younger generation. As I stated above, first please establish critical
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 03:32:00 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:30:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Sparks >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 07:22:04 -1000 >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:46:32 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:23:39 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC <snip> >>Now your objections are interesting in the way you spin these to >>support your case. You first refer to the historian William >>Jackson and his 1954 and 1956 recommendations to have the OCB >>formally incorporated into the NSC. You claim that this is >>historical evidence supporting your case, and that Jackson was >>more reliable than Cutler who was biased because the latter >>actually served on the OCB and wanted to gloss over his >>failures. Basically, you are saying that a historian/advisor >>knew better how the OCB functioned by reading a set of >>historical documents, than one of the key people serving on it >>who was no less that Eisenhower's Special Assistant. Your self-correction of your own post above (correction omitted below as irrelevant and as an excuse for you merely to beat your dead horse arguments again) while pompous and pedantic missed the biggest whopper of all: Your false claim that William Jackson was a mere outsider to the NSC and therefore could not possibly know as much as an insider like Robert Cutler, "who was no less that [sic] Eisenhower's Special Assistant" as you ostentatiously declare, (the Cutler whose sketchy statements you find easier to misrepresent to support Corso) is itself a total historical falsehood. William Jackson was both a Cutler successor and his predecessor as (Acting) Special Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs in 1956, during the nearly 2 years that Cutler was absent from that job at the NSC in 1955-7. Thus Jackson served in place of Cutler in Cutler's own job as "Eisenhower's Special Assistant" (to quote your own words back to haunt you) in 1956 right smack in the middle of Cutler's two terms as Presidential Special Assistant in 1953-5 and 1957-8. Didn't you think to even ask what Jackson was doing writing a report to the President in Dec 1956 making recommendations to integrate the OCB into the NSC when Jackson was not then heading any special outside "committee" (like you tried to say to disparage Jackson's supposed outsider-only knowledge as against insider Cutler's)? It was because Jackson in 1956 then had Cutler's NSC job!!! That's why. Didn't you bother to read the same superficial "history" sketch of the NSC which stated in the part you chose to omit: "The President's Special Assistant for National Security Affairs, a post held under Eisenhower by Cutler [<--NOTE], Dillon Anderson, William H. Jackson [<--NOTE!!!!], and Gordon Gray...." http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/history.html#eisenhower So Jackson was fully qualified to speak on NSC organization, function and history in 1956 when he told the President that the OCB was not functioning very well because it was separate from the NSC, and that Eisenhower should issue an executive order integrating the OCB into the NSC (which Ike did, as you very much hate to recognize). Thus once again, _all_ of the legal and historical evidence from the 1950's proves that the OCB was not part of the NSC it reported to (until the 1957 merger), any more than the CIA which was not part of the NSC either. Corso had no business lying his head off on his bios and resume's claiming he served on the "NSC Staff." CIA employees have no more right to claim high-ranking "NSC Staff" service on their bios and resume's just for working for the CIA, the NSC's independent "coordinating" arm, than Corso at the NSC's other independent "coordinating" body, the OCB. We do not see CIA personnel claiming "NSC Staff" status (unless of course they really are assigned to the NSC staff!). Corso was never really assigned to the NSC Staff contrary to his lies. <snip> >It is clear that William Jackson's familiarity with the OCB came >from his heading a committee designed to review this and other >NSC agencies/committees that were part of the NSC system.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Contactee Taboo - Stevenson From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:04:37 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:35:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Stevenson >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:39:54 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >>To: <UFOUpdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:36:57 +1000 >>Subject: Contactee Taboo ><snip> >>What I don't understand is why contactees have been so >>consistently persecuted, ridiculed, criticised, abused >and >>ignored. Only people who were vindicated by history have >>typically received so much adverse attention. ><snip> >History is replete with utopianists, and Adamski, that colorful >spinner of space tales, was one also - just with a spin that >resonated with the 1950s mind-set of those who worried about >atomic perdition. >When a guy talks about life on Venus or the other side of the >Moon and his obserations are contrary to fact, one has to eschew >him. >The message Adamski presented is nice, comforting and all, not >unlike that of that Jesus fellow (and look what happened to him). >Adamski was fun, but to hope for a renewed interest in his patently >absurd revelations goes against the sophistication that pretends to >be the hallmark of society, even amongst the young. >Time to move on to cynical realisms... >Rich Reynolds Hi Sheryl, Richard and List You both seem to miss the real point for the younger folk on your postings which is that if ET/UFO's exist then it would be a Military matter as they would have technology which could be highly detramental if Humans used it. Freindship with ET is ok but the interaction may also be detramental. If the Military who do deal with ET - we are told - consider pertenence of techlogy and contact to be ok then we could go ahead with that. The Military are there to protect the Public, are they not? A de bunker is not unless paid by Military to perform that purpose. As far as I know no de bunker has ever said he is employed by the Military therefore they are not employed by the Military and their
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Scottish Scientists Seek Life 'Out There' From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:04:27 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:42:31 -0400 Subject: Scottish Scientists Seek Life 'Out There' Source: The Evening Times - Glasgow, Scotland http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/lo/features/7019349.html 05 August 2005 [Reproduced with the kind permission of the editor] Is There Anybody Out There? As NASA'S shuttle team battle to repair their craft, a team of Glasgow University physicists have embarked on their own unique space mission. Caroline Wilson finds out what they hope to discover. Scientists from Glasgow are set to boldly go where no others have gone before and conquer the final frontier... A team of physicists from Glasgow University has landed more than 1 million Pounds [sterling] to help uncover whether there really is life on other planets. In the first research of its kind, scientists will develop technology which could offer new insight into the size of the universe and whether anything could live there. Scientists say the technology will offer a new "window on the universe" which could also uncover crucial evidence about the existence of other planets, whether they could sustain life and a glimpse of the Big Bang at an even earlier stage. The study could also give a better understanding of the rate at which the universe is expanding. The funding, which was awarded by the Scottish Higher Education Funding Council, will be used to develop a centre of excellence in Glasgow which will allow Scotland to compete with America in terms of space research. Dr Sheila Rowan, of the Department of Physics & Astronomy, is leading the study. She said: "We only have limited information about what is out there. This would give us a better understanding about what is happening in the universe. "It opens up a new window on the universe through which may come unique information. "It is also possible totally unexpected discoveries will be made. "Historically, every new discovery in astrophysics has led to a discovery which could benefit our own planet. "The technology could also be used to find other planets." Glasgow University was among eight in Scotland which received cash from the Scottish Higher Education Funding Council to strengthen work in areas which receive little or no funding. The research will continue Glasgow University's reputation as a leader in astrophysics. The university was the base of one of the world's most distinguished astronomers and paranormal researchers. Professor Archie Roy, Professor Emeritus of Astronomy, was honoured by the International Astronomical Union. The IAU also named an asteroid, 5806 Archieroy, after him. A team of six universities including Glasgow, Strathclyde and Edinburgh were also recently awarded =A337m over the next four years for research into astronomy and space physics. More than 200 physicists and 180 chemistry researchers will join forces to form special research "superteams". Last month a NASA astronaut travelled to Glasgow to encourage students to a career in space exploration. Dr Al Sacco spoke to undergraduates at the SECC. In the UK alone, space research has become big business, turning over an estimated =A3346m on satellite systems and =A32.5bn through navigation and observation equipment. A report by thinktank Demos says, by 2010, the space applications market will be worth more than =A3230bn a year worldwide. Meanwhile, last week marked the launch of space shuttle Discovery on America's first manned space mission since the 2003 Columbia disaster. Interest in the paranormal continues to grow and according to official research the best place to spot UFOs is here in Scotland. The Evening Times previously reported that West Kilbride in Ayrshire topped the list for UFO sightings in the UK last year. Ministry of Defence files, released under the Freedom of Information Act, showed there were 12 reports of "yellow spheres". The Clyde coast town displaces Bonnybridge, near Falkirk, as Scotland's flying saucer capital and closest rival to Roswell in New Mexico - site of an alleged spacecraft crash in 1947. Hamilton and Dumfries and Galloway were also included in the list, each with two reported sightings. Recent research revealed young Britons would back greater research into space research. Just over half of a sample of adults thought Britain should be involved in manned flight missions and 65% backed robot missions such as the ill-fated Beagle 2 probe to Mars. Glaswegian astronomer Dr Mirza Asif was in charge of hunting for
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:52:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:47:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Shell >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:17:47 -0400 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens >Source: Phenomena Magazine >http://tinyurl.com/8ykar >Wednesday, August 3, 2005 >New UFO Data >UFOs - The Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens >Surprising Developments >Nick Redfern >Phenomena Co-Editor <snip> >To this day, he remains mystified by his >extraordinary encounter over the Yorkshire moors in 1965. >However, of one thing we can now be certain: the Flying >Triangles are not a new phenomenon. <snip> My interest in UFO phenomena came from my father. He was a TV news reporter for most of his working life, and pretty much a skeptic when it came to "silly season" stories. However, back in the 60s he began to investigate a UFO flap in the little town of Wytheville, Virginia. Sightings in and near Wytheville included some traditional saucer-shaped UFOs, but the flying triangles predominated. There were several places near Wytheville where people would gather to watch for them, and where they would sometimes appear every night for several nights in a row. My father's viewpoint on these events changed dramatically after he had interviewed a number of eye witnesses. One woman in particular really impressed him, because it was quite clear that she was in sheer terror of what had happened to her. He wanted to put together a special program about the events in Wytheville, but the management always overruled the idea when he suggested it. I don't know how well-known the events in Wytheville, VA, are to the UFO community in general. The Editor of the local newspaper there collected hundreds of accounts for some twenty years. In the 80s and 90s the numbers of accounts seemed to decline almost to the level of "background noise", and I haven't heard of any accounts in the last five years. Whether this is from a lack of reports or just a lack of press attention I don't know. I live
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:18:52 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:52:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case - Lehmberg >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 19:12:09 -0300 >Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:41:51 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case >>>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 22:37:07 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Peter Khoury DNA Case <snip> >>I think you are inappropriately harsh in your criticism of >>Eugene's enthusiastic embrace of the forensic approach, and by >>default, of my call for a forensic scientific take on alien >>abductions. I don't agree that we should just accept that >>whatever is going on with alien abductions is so unknowable and >>beyond our ken, that we therefore should not try any approach >>that helps illuminate what goes on. >Very, very well said, Bill. I was going to say most of what you >said in the rest of your post but then opted to just delete >immediately from my inbox anything with Alfred's name on it, >that is, just not even read it. And that's what I've been doing! >So I don't know what Alfred has been saying. I don't feel it's >productive to waste time locking antlers with Alfred. If thine eyes offend you... pluck them out, Sir? Your dismissal is unfortunate... even if it is understandable. It is _unfortunate_ that your sullen intransigence provokes me for reasons... you didn't read yesterday... and that this sociological mis-alignment reflexively precludes our team-up and cooperation, at all? It is _understandable_ that you might be made uncomfortable... reminded that the rest of the universe, I expect, is _decidedly_ non-homocentric, perceives us as mewling psychopathic infants bereft of an 'understanding' that they might take for granted, and likely does not hold us in the same high esteem we would reserve for ourselves? It's a bitch considering that you might not even be a _student_ in the school for which you thought you served as headmaster, eh? As Einstein was said to have advised "Give 'em Hell Harry" Truman when Truman was thinking about shooting UFOs down over Washington in 1952... I paraphrase "If they can get here... they can kick our ass..." I would think he meant that on a few more levels than mere ass-whuppin', Sir. They might have more science; they might have more technology; they might have more power, grace, and style... ...they could have even more hubris than even we might be accused of having, forgetting they might be able to pay the freight for theirs... even as we _fail_ to pay the freight for ours. Have a good day, Mr. Frison. _I_ shall. Oooops! That's right. You're not reading. Pity. I make it a point of reading you.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Burns From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:34:55 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 10:56:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Burns >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:17:47 -0400 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens >Source: Phenomena Magazine >http://tinyurl.com/8ykar >Wednesday, August 3, 2005 >New UFO Data >UFOs - The Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens >Surprising Developments >Nick Redfern >Phenomena Co-Editor <snip> Errol, Nick, listers, Hi, Nick, I agree, this report of the FT from March 1965, does bring up interesting points. To add more fuel to the fire. Omar Fowler, who has two publications available listed below. I am sure that he has at least one flying triangle sighting by to ex- RAF men from 1955, or certainly around that era. Author of 'The Flying Triangle Mystery' (24 A4 pages including colour pictures & incident graphs). Author of 'Flying Triangle UFO's: The Continuing Story' (26 A4 pages including colour pictures & incident graphs). These publications are available from the address below. I have cc'ed Omar Fowler this post. Omar can you confirm the oldest FT sighting you have for us? http://www.phenomenon-research.com This is my point, I would be pleased to hear the opinions of the list. If the chronology is correct. Development of the Stealth project started in the 70,s, public acknowledgement of the existence of Stealth came during the first gulf war. Roughly 20 years later. Triangle sightings from the 50's and 60's, if terrestrial still not disclosed while the space shuttle limps back and forth between the space station. If the FT,s are terrestrial, a message to the man at the top, get one out of the hanger and borrow it to NASA. As a footnote, I am still speaking in France in October despite the best efforts of at least one of UK ufologys usefull idiots. The games continue behind the scenes to deny me a public platform to present my research. I am of the opinion that how sad someones life must be that they are actively making it there business to get involved in my business. Life goes on for me and things are just fine and dandy, This person just needs to get a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 16:35:33 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:34:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Dickenson >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:17:47 -0400 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens >Source: Phenomena Magazine >http://tinyurl.com/8ykar >Wednesday, August 3, 2005 >New UFO Data >UFOs - The Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens >Surprising Developments >Nick Redfern >Phenomena Co-Editor >Many people with an interest in the UFO mystery will have heard >of the so-called "Flying Triangle" puzzle. For more than a >decade, sightings of large, triangular-shaped UFOs, often black >in color, with rounded corners and making a low, humming noise >have been reported throughout the world. <snip> >The man was never visited by anyone with regard to his Flying >Triangle encounter, nor did the MoD ever offer an explanation as >to what it was that he saw on that fateful night in March 1965. Hello Nick and List That "no M.o.D explanation" of Flying Triangle sounds familiar, and am sure you have on the list the 30/31st March 1993 multiple sighting by police and military of a Triangle overflying several areas in UK, including two RAF bases, RAF Cosford and RAF Shawbury. http://www.global-conspiracies.com/triangle.htm ("Night Sightings") Interestingly the page says of the M.o.D: "There was no way in which they could continue to say that these events were of no defence significance when numerous military witnesses had reported an unidentified triangular craft flying directly over two key military establishments." Cheers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Allan From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:01:17 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:36:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Allan >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:23:39 EDT >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:00:20 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC I am not going into the official history of Philip Corso, or anyone else, or getting into a discussion about the NSC, the OCB, the CIA or whatever, as detailed in the debate between these two protagonists. I merely point out this: Is someone who rants on and on about how the military go around altering a person's academic credentials, revising and deleting his personal life history as it suits them and, presumably, destroying each and every record of this victim's achievements (to say nothing of erasing the memories of all the academics & colleagues who taught, or who worked with, the said victim), all because the said person was on the verge of becoming a 'whistleblower', worth taking seriously? Anyone who accepts that such things are possible can side with Michael Salla. Anyone who does not (i.e. I presume, at least 99
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 5 Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:19:54 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:38:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Boone >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:17:47 -0400 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens >Source: Phenomena Magazine >http://tinyurl.com/8ykar >Wednesday, August 3, 2005 >New UFO Data >UFOs - The Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens >Surprising Developments >Nick Redfern >Phenomena Co-Editor <snip> Okay, I'm not going to touch this again because Nick knows what sources I've had on this subject. Matter of fact I'm sitting here listening to myself on Brad's radio show via a CD of my appearance on his show. No big mystery with what the triangles are, more of a mystery as to why the big hush-hush by the authorities.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Secrecy News -- 08/05/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:58:57 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 07:40:58 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/05/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 76 August 5, 2005 ** PENTAGON REPORT ON CONTRACTORS IN IRAQ ** FORMER AIPAC OFFICIALS INDICTED ** NAVY COUNTERINTELLIGENCE DIRECTIVE ** PHYSICIST ASHER PERES PENTAGON REPORT ON CONTRACTORS IN IRAQ The role of private contractors supporting deployed military forces and reconstruction efforts in Iraq is the subject of a new report to Congress from the Department of Defense. The extensive U.S. reliance on contractors in Iraq is a sensitive subject, involving complex questions of oversight and authority. "The interaction between U.S. military forces and security contractors in Iraq is one of coordination rather than control because private security contractors have no direct contractual relationship with the Commander," the new report states. The report describes the legal status of contractors, addresses questions of misconduct, and provides various data on casualty and fatality figures for contractor personnel. The report, which was required by the FY 2005 Defense Authorization Act, has not been publicly released. A copy was obtained by researcher David Isenberg. See "Public Law 108-375, Section 1206 Report" here (1.6 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/1206report.pdf FORMER AIPAC OFFICIALS INDICTED The Justice Department announced the indictment of two former officials of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), along with former Defense Department official Larry Franklin, for "conspiracy to communicate national defense information to persons not entitled to receive it." A copy of the August 4 indictment is here: http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/franklin0805.pdf In a news release, U.S. Attorney Paul McNulty declared firmly that "When it comes to classified information, there is a clear line in the law. Today's charges are about crossing that line." But the law governing unauthorized disclosures of classified information is not "a clear line." It is a blurry and discontinuous line. Laws on disclosures of classified national defense information do not apply to disclosures of classified non-defense intelligence or diplomatic information. Laws on classified nuclear weapons information differ from both. That is what motivated Congress in 2000 to enact an anti-leak statute that would have categorically outlawed all such unauthorized disclosures. The move was vetoed by President Clinton, at the urging of press organizations and open government advocates who saw it as an emerging Official Secrets Act. "Those entrusted with safeguarding our nation's secrets must remain faithful to that trust," Mr. McNulty continued. Then he added piously: "Those not authorized to receive classified information must resist the temptation to acquire it, no matter what their motivation may be." But as a practical matter, receipt of formally classified information is part of the daily business of national security reporting, and occasionally of government watchdogging. Even Mr. McNulty did not propose to indict the reporters to whom the former AIPAC officials allegedly communicated their information. In other words, Mr. McNulty's public statement is not a reliable guide to law or policy on national security classification. A copy of the August 4 Justice Department news release with Mr. McNulty's remarks is here: http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2005/08/doj080405.html NAVY COUNTERINTELLIGENCE DIRECTIVE A revised and updated Navy counterintelligence policy was issued last month. See Department of the Navy Counterintelligence, Secretary of the Navy Instruction 3850.2C, 22 July 2005: http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/navy/secnavinst/3850_2c.pdf PHYSICIST ASHER PERES The quantum physicist Asher Peres, who died last January in Haifa, Israel, is remembered by colleagues in an obituary in the current issue of Physics Today. Peres was the author of the highly regarded 1993 text "Quantum Theory: Concepts and Methods" (which Secrecy News has not read). In that book, his colleagues recall, Peres mentioned Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, "for which [he] had little use," only in a single entry in the index -- which pointed to that same page of the index. In 1983, during the Israel-Lebanon war, Prof. Peres nominated Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin for the Nobel Prize in Physics, explaining that he deserved it just as much as the Nobel Peace Prize that he had received in 1978. The obituary for Asher Peres, written by Joseph E. Avron and three other colleagues, may be found in the August 2005 issue of Physics Today (subscription required): http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-58/iss-8/contents.html _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Re: Philip Corso & NSC - Kimball From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:03:23 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 07:42:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC - Kimball >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:01:17 +0100 >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:23:39 EDT >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:00:20 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC <snip> >Is someone who rants on and on about how the military go around >altering a person's academic credentials, revising and deleting >his personal life history as it suits them and, presumably, >destroying each and every record of this victim's achievements >(to say nothing of erasing the memories of all the academics >& colleagues who taught, or who worked with, the said victim), >all because the said person was on the verge of becoming a >'whistleblower', worth taking seriously? >Anyone who accepts that such things are possible can side with >Michael Salla. Anyone who does not (i.e. I presume, at least 99 >per cent of this List) will side with Brad Sparks. I know which >side I'm on. CDA: Dr. Salla is worth taking seriously, as Brad, Kevin, Stan Friedman, Josh Goldstein, Dick Hall, myself and others have done at various times, because its important to set the record straight for those who might wander by, here or elsewhere, and just get Dr. Salla's side of the story. He is also worth taking seriously simply because he is one of the main proponents of exopolitics, and its important for ufology to make a very clear, and public, distinction between the fringes - like exopolitics - and the serious study of the UFO phenomenon, just as it was important to make the distinction, years ago, between the contactees and the serious study of the UFO phenomenon.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:26:56 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 07:48:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC - Sparks Please note the previous _long_ posting on this subject line accidentally launched in mid-sentence before I was done editing. This is the correct, finished version below. (The one much shorter posting today is separate and okay.) >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:46:32 -1000 >Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:23:39 EDT >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC <snip> >>>>>>>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>>>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>>>>>Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:05:24 -1000 >>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC <snip> >>>>>>>>>http://www.cia.gov/csi/kent_csi/docs/v03i4a05p_0003.htm >>>>>>>>>Certainly, Cutler was clear about the role played by the "NSC >>>>>>>>>Operations Coordinating Board." Cutler viewed it as integral >>>>>>>>>part of the NSC system and part of the NSC itself. >>Notice that Cutler nowhere says that the OCB was an integral >>part of the NSC "throughout its entire history 1953-1961" as you >>claimed in a previous posting. Cutler does not put dates like >>"1953-1961" on his organizational titles, his account is very >>generalized. He's talking about the idealized functioning of OCB >>and the NSC at the end not the detailed history up to that >>point. >>Cutler does not mention Jackson's reports in 1954 and 1956 >>critical of the OCB's powerlessness and Eisenhower's 1957 >>Executive Order rectifying that by merging the OCB into the NSC. >>Cutler's failure to mention the profound shortcomings of the NSC >>and OCB under his tenure are not surprising since it would >>reflect badly on his own performance, something you have trouble >>understanding. Since Cutler omits to mention the Jackson reports >>and the President's Executive Order merging OCB into the NSC, >>Cutler's historical remarks cannot possibly qualify as a valid >>detailed history. >>Your "revisionist history" trashes the Eisenhower Executive >>Order as a needless exercise because you allege, contrary to all >>credible evidence, that the OCB was doing just fine and was >>already part of the NSC "functionally." What a joke! >>Talk about absurd euphemisms, the OCB was NOT "functioning" >>and that's why it had to be fixed. You twist this history to its >>polar opposite of the truth just to rescue your phony UFO >>"whistleblower" (actually leaker and fabricator) Corso who >>repeatedly lied to say he had been an illustrious "NSC Member" >>or on the highly impressive "NSC Staff" but usually forgot to >>even mention the OCB. >>Contrary to your desperate "revisionist" inventions, the OCB did >>not "evolve" into a closer and closer relationship to the NSC, >>but remained in the same static ineffectual position of pleading >>for "voluntary cooperation" from government departments in 1954 >>when Jackson complained that this system was not working (and >>that the OCB needed to be made a part of the NSC), as it did in >>1956 when Jackson continued to complain that OCB was not working >>and needed to made a part of the NSC. >>Same in 1954 as in 1956, the OCB was not working because it was >>_not_ part of the NSC and thus did not have the NSC's authority >>to enforce compliance with directives, as Jackson reported to >>the President. You just flatly evade these facts. >>Under OCB's founding charter, Eisenhower's Executive Order >>10483, the OCB had no independent power or authority to order >>any agency to comply with its wishes or the NSC's directives. >>The OCB could only "advise the agencies concerned" and >>"initiate... proposals." >>You cannot produce a shred of evidence that, prior to its merger >>with the NSC, the OCB could order departments and agencies to >>act and could enforce its own orders. Notice that you cannot respond to my point (above) and you have produced exactly _zero_ evidence that the OCB could issue orders instead of impotently begging for "voluntary cooperation" - until at long last OCB merged with the NSC under the President's legal authority, the administrative law of an Eisenhower Executive Order in 1957. Corso was on the OCB staff only from 1953 to 1956 and not in 1957 when it merged with the NSC (I now have OCB documents thanks to one veteran researcher that help fill in the picture on Corso's background chronology). Corso was never on the "NSC Staff" at any time according to his own military records and now OCB documents, contrary to Corso's later lies. Other historians do not have the trouble you do in reading the plain English of the Executive Orders or in correctly interpreting power relationships in the federal government. For example the Army War College's Lt. Col. Hough recently wrote a history stating among other things the following obvious facts about the OCB and NSC (pp. 17-18): "Like the PSB, OCB was not originally within the NSC structure, but a separate agency that reported to it.... On 25 February 1957, Executive Order 10700 changed OCB's status from an independent coordinating board to actually part of the National Security Council structure." OCB documents on Corso do not describe OCB as part of the NSC, which makes perfect sense since the dates in 1953-6 are before the OCB-NSC merger. Nor do OCB documents refer to Corso as serving on the "NSC Staff" by virtue of working for the OCB. One would not even know that Corso had anything to do with the NSC from the OCB documents. There is no mention in the OCB documents, or anywhere else such as on this list and from my own research, where Corso is described as working on an NSC policy in the 50's. Where then is any evidence of actual "NSC Staff" work by Corso in the 50's? Corso's OCB work was in an intelligence agency liaison capacity for the OCB which mostly involved writing up propaganda materials (like the old days when Corso worked on the staff of OCB's predecessor the Psychological Strategy Board, PSB). Hardly the stuff of high-falutin NSC policy development and "coordination"! Corso's successor on the OCB tried to line up a new propaganda- writing job for him at other agencies at the end of Corso's OCB tour of duty, and described Corso's work at the OCB in a Sept 7, 1956, memo as follows: "While on the OCB staff [NOTE no mention of "NSC staff"] Corso has been largely involved on the OCB Psychological Warfare Program generally and specifically in the preparation of unclassified propagandistic information briefs for the support of the United States delegation at the United Nations." No mention of Corso and the NSC or doing anything for the NSC! Just writing up unclassified propaganda. Let's see documents showing Corso attending any NSC meetings. So far as I can see there are none because Corso evidently never attended a single NSC meeting in his life! You have gone through numerous desperate theories to try to falsify and deny the executive law of the land that merged the OCB into the NSC in 1957 only _after_ Corso had left in 1956 and was long gone. First you tried to just blatantly state the falsehood, that the OCB was always a part of the NSC. Then I refuted you by citing EO 10700, which proved "formally" by executive law (de jure) that the OCB had been "independent" of the NSC up until that time 1957 (as of course the founding executive law had set it up to be, in 1953, as "independent" from the NSC, though reporting to and advising the NSC in efforts to "coordinate" national security policies just like the "independent" CIA reported to and "coordinated" matters for the NSC). Then you tried to assert that the OCB was "informally" always a part of the NSC (de facto). Then I refuted you by citing the Jackson reporting that had led Eisenhower to merge the OCB into the NSC. Jackson said, and the President agreed, this was necessary in order for the OCB to be able to use its new NSC status to command departmental compliance. Thus even "informally" the day-to-day "de facto" reality of the OCB prior to its NSC merger was that it did not get even "informal" treatment as an "NSC" staff from the other agencies of government but was basically ignored when it (the OCB) got in the way of the national security departments and agencies (the State Dept resented the OCB and believed it had the primary role in coordinating foreign policy, the Defense Dept likewise resented the OCB because of its claim to primacy in military policy, etc.). Then you tried to float the phony idea that the OCB was "functionally" always a part of the NSC. Then I flushed that hogwash down by showing that "functionally" the OCB did not "function" and was an ineffectual paper-pushing paper- tiger agency that required merging with the NSC to get some clout by being able to say for the first time that it, the OCB, was part of the NSC, and only then would have the NSC's power to order compliance. Even so, the "bloated" Eisenhower NSC structure, including especially the still rather ineffective OCB, had to be abolished in early 1961 by Kennedy as a holdover from the Ike era that did not work. Col. Hough's Army history states (p. 20): "[Senator] Jackson's report was highly critical of Eisenhower's National Security Council system, deeming it a bloated paper mill that didn't accomplish much real work, and that exceeded what he envisioned as the proper role for the Council." You ignore all the historical comment and documents from the Kennedy era on the inherited sloth and waste found in the "bloated" Eisenhower NSC. For example you omit to mention the following from the very same NSC history on the White House website with its rather self- serving glossing over of past NSC failures but which nonetheless admitted the following NSC bureaucratic weaknesses in the Eisenhower era which prove that the OCB still did not "function" even when within the NSC: "Critics of the Eisenhower NSC system have argued that it was inflexible, overstaffed, ... and weighed down by committees [such as the OCB after 1957] reporting in great detail on long checklists of minor policy concerns. "The most thorough critique of the system emerged from the hearings conducted in 1960-1961 by the Senate Subcommittee on National Policy Machinery, known as the Jackson Subcommittee for its chairman, Senator Henry Jackson. Cutler and ... James Lay testified in support of the effectiveness of the system, but their testimony was offset by that of former Truman administration officials such as George Kennan, Paul Nitze, and Robert Lovett. They argued that foreign policy was being made by a passive President influenced by a National Security Council rendered virtually useless by ponderous, bureaucratic machinery. "Basically, they argued, the NSC was a huge committee, and suffered from all the weaknesses of committees. Composed of representatives of many agencies, its members were not free to adopt the broad, statesmanlike attitude desired by the President, but, rather, were ambassadors of their own departments, clinging to departmental rather than national views. "To make matters worse, critics added, the NSC system by its very nature was restricted to continuing and developing already established policies and was incapable of originating new ideas or major innovations. The critics suggested replacement of the formal, 'over-institutionalized' NSC structure with a smaller, less formal NSC which would offer the President a clear choice of alternatives on a limited number of major problems.... "President Kennedy, who was strongly influenced by the report of the Jackson Subcommittee and its severe critique of the Eisenhower NSC system, moved quickly at the beginning of his administration to deconstruct the NSC process.... In a very short period after taking office, the new President moved to reduce the NSC staff ... and hold NSC meetings much less frequently while sharply curtailing the number of officers attending. The Operation Coordination [sic] Board was abolished...." http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/history.html#eisenhower Historian Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., who served on Kennedy's White House staff commented in an article on Eisenhower's "Most Dubious Precedent" for "Effective National Security Advising" that Eisenhower's defenders Greenstein and Immerman: "fail to cite a single concrete example as a triumph of Eisenhower's national security machinery. They even admit (sort of) that Ike's Operations Coordinating Board was a flop ("The performance of the OCB never achieved Eisenhower's expectations")." (Political Science Quarterly, vol. 115, no. 3, Fall 2000) Col. Hough's Army history recounts Kennedy's demolition of the "bloated" Eisenhower NSC and OCB (p. 20): "Less than a month after taking office, Kennedy issued Executive Order 10920, abolishing the OCB. Over 45 interagency committees died with OCB. In the next few weeks, Kennedy continued to dismantle Eisenhower's system, abolishing another 40 interdepartmental groups. The National Security Council staff decreased significantly and lost much of its power." And "functionally," in the sense of how the OCB organizational structure was set up to function, the legal facts of the matter as I have already proven many times over was that the OCB was explicitly set up by Executive Order only to "advise" and to "propose" coordination of national security policies as a separate agency "independent" of the NSC, just like the CIA (see EO 10483). The OCB did not function as an "arm of the NSC" at all prior to 1957 as it could not issue orders in the name of the NSC, all it could do was "advise" and "propose." Yet as I have stressed over and over again, CIA employees do not get to lie on their resume's like Corso and claim glorious and impressive high-level service on the illustrious "NSC Staff" just because the CIA "coordinates" and "advises" for the NSC, just like the OCB "coordinates" and "advises" for the NSC. You then deceitfully nitpicked my CIA argument by quoting a post-9/11 present-day 2005 version of the 1947 law that created the CIA, instead of the 1947 version that actually applied in the 50's which said the CIA "advises" and "coordinates" for the NSC just like the OCB. Then you grasped at the thin straws of a few scattered references which you took grossly out of context that referred to the OCB/NSC in its final days when the OCB was really part of NSC, which proves nothing as to Corso's days at the OCB when it was _not_ part of the NSC. Your equally grasping-at-straws 1992 Congressional hearing reference - from a bio that Corso himself no doubt supplied to the committee staff - was so laughably inaccurate and unchecked for either facts or spelling that it misspells Corso's first name with 2 L's in "Phillip." That was how good a job that Congressional staff did on the current spelling of Corso's name, easily checked, and yet you would have us blindly accept this same committee's alleged authority and expertise on the facts (mis)stated by Corso claiming he had served on the "NSC Staff." Corso had a longstanding habit of inflating and misrepresenting the importance of his job assignments by inserting "NSC" and even the "White House" into his bios. In testimony on the POW issue to the House Subcommittee on Military Personnel on Sept. 17, 1996, Corso falsely stated in his written prepared statement that on his return to the U.S. from Korea in 1953: "I [Corso] was assigned to the Operations Coordinating Board (OCB) of the White House, National Security Council" Notice Corso has forgotten all about the PSB staff that he was actually "assigned" to in 1953 before the OCB even came into existence! Corso footnoted his prepared statement with false citations to "White House Operations Coordination [sic] Board (OCB)" documents, which do not say any such thing about a "White House OCB" (as another Corso footnote claimed, which I am also quoting here both verbatim). Are you now going to mount a huge campaign of falsification of history to claim the OCB was also a part of the White House too, as well as "part of" the NSC??? Sheesh, what fabulous government agency was the OCB _not_ a "part of"??? You misreference an FBI memo from 1965 almost a decade after Corso left the OCB and ignore the earlier FBI memo in 1965 that stated that Corso's old Army boss Gen. Trudeau had been the one to supply the "OCB/NSC staff" job title for Corso, not the FBI from its own sources. Yet you continue to cite this as an "FBI" prooftext to support Corso when the info actually came from the Army. And as head of Army R&D, Gen. Trudeau was no expert on NSC history either, his department had no NSC "national security policy" function, and no reason to interact with either the OCB or the NSC. It was Research and Development! Since when was J. Edgar Hoover's FBI an expert in NSC history and organization anyway? Finally now you have resorted to the last in your bag of tricks of partisan apologetics for Corso where you claim that the OCB was part of the "NSC system" - as if by inserting a new word "system" into the equation you can overturn all the legal, factual, and historical proof that OCB was never a part of the NSC while Corso was there. >>To the contrary there is >>indisputable proof from Jackson's reports, and those of other >>agencies and consultants, who found OCB could not enforce >>compliance and that the system was not working because OCB was >>independent of the NSC and not a part of the NSC. Those experts >>on the scene in the 50's found that the OCB's separate-from-NSC >>status was what needed to be changed, and it was changed - after >>Corso left. <snip> >What's worth emphasizing is that the NSC under Eisenhower >was a collection of different agencies and committees that >worked in way that was constantly evolving and was described >at the time as the 'NSC system'. >So the OCB was part of the NSC system which >was very fluid and nuanced in the various committees and >agencies it had attached to it. The actual national security experts on the NSC in the 50's said the NSC was not constantly "evolving" but was a stagnant, bloated, moribund bureaucracy, asleep at the wheel like its Chief Executive. You just obstinately refuse to read your own references, as with that same superficial NSC history sketch you keep referring to, which also said that the NSC under Eisenhower was criticized for being an "inflexible, overstaffed, useless, ponderous, bureaucracy." Do you understand what the words "inflexible" and "ponderous" mean? They're the opposite of "very fluid" and "constantly evolving." The NSC under Eisenhower was the exact opposite of how you have distorted it. >...the NSC was much >more extensive and loosely organized and comprised >agencies/committee such as the OCB. The proof for this is in the >following extract from the official White House history of the >NSC which can be read online. >Source: http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/history.html#eisenhower <snip> >... your argument is quite weak and does not sustain your very >strong claim that Corso lied.... Your description of him as a liar >is a travesty.... The evidence shows Corso repeatedly lied to inflate and exaggerate his role in history, by falsely claiming to have been an "NSC Member" (April 1998 affidavit), or having been a member of the "NSC Staff" or even the "White House OCB" (a nonexistent fabricated non-entity; see his Sept 1996 Congressional paper). Corso also claimed in his Roswell book to have singlehandedly saved the human species from alien invasion. Corso made up various stories out of whole cloth in his book. Corso fabricated the story that he had influenced JFK to announce the Apollo moon landing goal by meeting with the President's brother RFK in May 1962, after Corso had spent a year at Army R&D studying evidence of the alien threat coming from the Moon. Except that Kennedy made his famous announcement of the moon- landing project _a year earlier_ on May 25, 1961, and just days after Corso had arrived at his new Army R&D job and before he could have found out anything on some "alien threat" of invasion. Corso said he had only slowly become aware of the UFO files and had had to spend a lot of time in the Summer of 1961 studying the Roswell file. His book then describes a whole series of his alleged UFO-related technology exploitation activities over the next year and into 1962 before he finally had his meeting with Attorney General RFK, so there is no way out of the chronological hoax that is proven here. Numerous other ridiculous falsehoods of history, science, and fact by Corso could be cited, where Corso would have had to have a time machine to go back and manufacture the history to fit his bogus stories. <snip> >I have made my case and will leave it to others to continue this >thread if they wish. And then you posted a false "correction" afterward where you again claimed that William Jackson was some no-nothing outsider to the NSC and thus could not be cited for authority against the super-insider Cutler of the NSC (whom you misuse for precise chronological detail of the NSC that he never intended for the brief survey). But you conveniently forgot to quote the following sentence from the Eisenhower section of your favorite "history" of the NSC on the White House website, where you left out the this devastating crucial fact that William H. Jackson had had Cutler's exact same NSC job!: "The President's Special Assistant for National Security Affairs, a post held under Eisenhower by Cutler [<--NOTE],
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Questions Of Origin And Intent From: Rick Nielsen <narlarso.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:50:26 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 07:57:21 -0400 Subject: Questions Of Origin And Intent I readily admit I'm a novice compared to the ufology giants who frequent these discussions. I think I understand the'significance of highly-advanced aircraft flying over the US during the early years of post-WW2. I think I agree with the conclusions of the credible ufologists, (Barry Downing, Bruce Maccabee, Budd Hopkins, David Jacobs, Jerome Clark, John Greenewalt, John Schuessler, Nick Redfern, Ray Fowler, Richard Haines, Rob Swiatek, Scott Ramsey, Stan Friedman, and Ted Phillips, et al by the way. Thanks to you fellows for your high quality research and comments, that the builders and flyers of those aircraft were probably not human, and that US agencies are'still hiding the truth. And'since the human race is'so quick at copying and improving technology, those UFO's observed and'studied in the 1940's and 1950's have a better chance of being from non-human origins than those observed today. But I'm still fuzzy on the extra-terrestrial origin of those aircraft and their pilots. Why couldn't they be from hidden civilizations in natural/artificial caves/tunnels (hollow earth theories), or from hidden partially'submerged civilizations in our largely unexplored ocean depths? If these UFOs are from extra-terrestrials whose agenda is to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Re: Contactee Taboo - Deardorff From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:22:52 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 07:59:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Deardorff >From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:04:37 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:39:54 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >>>To: <UFOUpdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:36:57 +1000 >>>Subject: Contactee Taboo >><snip> >>>What I don't understand is why contactees have been so >>>consistently persecuted, ridiculed, criticised, abused >>>and ignored. Only people who were vindicated by history have >>>typically received so much adverse attention. >><snip> >>History is replete with utopianists, and Adamski, that colorful >>spinner of space tales, was one also - just with a spin that >>resonated with the 1950s mind-set of those who worried about >>atomic perdition. >>When a guy talks about life on Venus or the other side of the >>Moon and his obserations are contrary to fact, one has to eschew >>him. >>The message Adamski presented is nice, comforting and all, not >>unlike that of that Jesus fellow (and look what happened to him). >>Adamski was fun, but to hope for a renewed interest in his patently >>absurd revelations goes against the sophistication that pretends to >>be the hallmark of society, even amongst the young. >>Time to move on to cynical realisms... >You both seem to miss the real point for the younger folk on >your postings which is that if ET/UFO's exist then it would be a >Military matter as they would have technology which could be >highly detramental if Humans used it. >Freindship with ET is ok but the interaction may also be >detramental. If the Military who do deal with ET - we are told - >consider pertenence of techlogy and contact to be ok then we >could go ahead with that. >The Military are there to protect the Public, are they >not? A de bunker is not unless paid by Military to >perform that purpose. As far as I know no de bunker >has ever said he is employed by the Military therefore >they are not employed by the Military and their >comments can and should be dismissed as useless. Hello Col, Rich, et al., The main point I see is that contactees have been debunked largely because of the inconsistencies and contradictions in the stories they've told. However, to a large extent, these stories were just repeats of what the contactees were told by their alien contactors (in cases of non-hoaxing contactees). So why blame the contactees if they've been so overawed of their contactors as to believe them 100%?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Re: Contactee Taboo - Frola From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:10:16 +1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 08:03:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Frola >From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:04:37 +0100 (BST) >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:39:54 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >>>To: <UFOUpdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:36:57 +1000 >>>Subject: Contactee Taboo >><snip> >>>What I don't understand is why contactees have been so >>>consistently persecuted, ridiculed, criticised, abused and >>>ignored. Only people who were vindicated by history have >>>typically received so much adverse attention. >><snip> >>History is replete with utopianists, and Adamski, that colorful >>spinner of space tales, was one also - just with a spin that >>resonated with the 1950s mind-set of those who worried about >>atomic perdition. <snip> >You both seem to miss the real point for the younger folk on >your postings which is that if ET/UFO's exist then it would be a >Military matter as they would have technology which could be >highly detramental if Humans used it. <snip> >The Military are there to protect the Public, are they >not? A de bunker is not unless paid by Military to >perform that purpose. As far as I know no de bunker >has ever said he is employed by the Military therefore >they are not employed by the Military and their >comments can and should be dismissed as useless. Who said that these contacts with aliens (which always look remarkably like Miss Universe or Mr Universe) are telling contactees the truth? They are just interesting tales that would be good bedtime stories for little Amy or Jo.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 First Canadian Crop Circle Formation 2005 From: Paul Anderson - CCCRN News <cccrnnews.nul> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:29:01 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 08:06:52 -0400 Subject: First Canadian Crop Circle Formation 2005 CCCRN NEWS E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network August 5, 2005 http://www.cccrn.ca _____________________________ CROP CIRCLE FORMATION REPORT #1 - PRINCE ALBERT, SASKATCHEWAN The first Canadian crop circle formation for 2005 has been reported just north of Prince Albert, Saskatchewan. Found July 22, reported on August 3 by CTV News. Exact location kept confidential. Single circle in slough grass, approximately 18 metres (60 feet) diameter. Lay in one direction, not swirled. Unusual lights reported the night before formation found. Further details pending. Initial on-site investigations by CCCRN Saskatchewan and NWSURC. A preliminary NWSURC report is also here: http://www.ufo-connection.com/nwsurc/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3D185 Note: the previous report from Sandy Bay, Manitoba (June 2, 2005) will be moved to the Other Circular Phenomena in Canada Archive, given the updated information regarding it's physical nature (grass missing, not flattened), making the Prince Albert formation the first "standard" type crop circle report for 2005. _____________________________ CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as other information on CCCRN-related
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Burns From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 01:04:37 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:07:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Burns Errol, Nick, and the expanding list of respondents, Omar Fowler, has contacted me, and to further add to the debate Omar added this: --- Hi Max, The earliest 'Triangle' report I have is 23 April 1949 at Vicksburg, Mississippi, USA. See: http://www.bluebookarchive.org/page.aspx?PageCode=MAXW-PBB5-1442 Regards, Omar ---
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 01:06:16 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:19:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 17:59:52 -0700 >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 20:45:14 EDT >>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>Look at AFOSI agent Doty. Despite admitting to >>"disinformation ops in the past" Doty is still believed by some >>in the UFO community, as you well know, and still appears to >>be spreading disinformation. >But look at the time frame in which the Doty book came out - >right around the same time frame as my book and Greg Bishop's >book, both of which question key ingredients of the pro-UFO >subject (well, key ingredients to some, at least), namely >crashed alien spaceships; dead aliens; cattle mutes; underground >bases; alien implants; alien-human collusion, etc. >This is my point: if the data provided by me and Greg is proven >to be correct, then it is _exactly now_ that we might see >further "the aliens are here and they crashed" disinformation >pumped out. Because me and Greg are "doing" things that threaten >the real secrets, of a non-UFO nature. <snip> >But the big difference I keep coming back to is that targeting >me would be totally illogical because I wasn't researching >anything that I needed to be diverted from. You have deleted all my quotes from your book where your own "sources" tell you the disinfo op is aimed at the whole UFO _community_ mainly using a false UFO "rumor mill," not necessarily even targeted at Roswell but UFO's in general. You keep dodging what your own sources told you, as stated in your book, that the purpose of the UFO disinformation was to cause "confusion" among UFO researchers (pp. 84, 89) by "flooding the UFO community with a mass of confusing, contradictory and outright bogus stories" (p. 89), by "muddying the waters" (p. 173). The stories were intended and planned to be "easily spotted by keen-eyed UFO investigators" as fakes (p. 89) because some would still believe despite the exposure as fraud and some would not. Then they would have enormous distracting and disruptive battles between both sides, "muddying the waters" (p. 173) plunging the UFO "community" into "confusion" (pp. 84, 89) and thus neutralizing it by splitting it asunder. Read over my posting of the FBI techniques (see below) which were based on standard counterintelligence and covert action techniques developed by the military and CIA. The "UFO community" _as a whole_ is the target (pp. 89, 102) not particular UFO investigators such as Keyhoe or Stringfield (p. 102) or non-UFO journalists such as Jim Wilson of Popular Mechanics which you wrote "certainly can't be attributed to 'coincidence' " (p. 131) or you, you are just the conduits or channels for relaying the UFO false propaganda to the intended target, "the UFO community" (p. 102). A "rumor mill" is designed to spread false rumors not to "divert" particular investigators. The rumors are also intended only to be half-convincing and to blow up and be exposed as rubbish, _not_ to be completely convincing so as to continually "divert" anyone (though some gullible people will continue to believe anything no matter how many times exposed as a fraud, look at the Adamski followers even today). Obviously false rumors have to be planted with particular individuals so they can spread them (or not, they may choose not to) but that does not make those individuals the "targets." "Rumor mill" disinfo ops are not about targeting some one lone UFO investigator who is "getting too close to the truth and must be diverted at all costs!!" You keep inserting yourself into the mix as someone the disinfo agents would have to divert. Yet that is not the purpose of much (if not all) of the disinformation even according to your own book. A general UFO "rumor mill" does not have to have exacting recruitment standards, it spreads rumors to whomever will spread them. A "rumor mill" does not require that _books_ have to be published based on the rumors. Requiring book-length products would grind a "rumor mill" to an immediate standstill. If every daily Hollywood gossip columnist and tabloid reporter had to wait till there was a _book_ before they could pass on the latest sleazy gossip they would be shut down in an instant (being allowed only to go public when a tell-all _book_ comes through). Your mistake is in failing to recognize the military mentality of "us vs. them." When they have designated you (meaning the UFO community, not you personally) as an "enemy" their purpose is to weaken, confuse and neutralize you, not to "divert" someone from "the truth." Low-level disinfo agents are not even cleared for or have any need-to-know for the "the Truth," meaning the most sensitive secrets of the nation, they're just propagandists churning out drivel, some of it clever and disruptive, some of it poor and ineffective. Just read the FBI material I later posted. Have you never heard the term "agit-prop"? Agitation propaganda is designed to cause agitation, disruption, controversy, fights. Like Internet "trolls." I hope you see my point. As I posted yesterday according to the Church Committee final report this is what was done to Americans, full citizens, within the United States, not foreign agents, or overseas (other agencies did this overseas and their methods were imitated at home): "IV. COINTELPRO Techniques [before 1956 "divide, confuse, weaken in diverse ways, an organization"; after 1956 "to expose, disrupt, misdirect, discredit, or otherwise neutralize the activities of... organizations and groupings, their leadership, spokesmen, membership, and supporters... to exploit conflicts within and between groups; to use news media contacts to disrupt, ridicule, or discredit groups; to preclude... leaders of these groups from spreading their philosophy publicly; and to gather information on the 'unsavory backgrounds' immorality, subversive activity, and criminal activity 'of group members"; "Every avenue of possible embarrassment must be vigorously and enthusiastically explored."] A. Propaganda B. Efforts to Promote Enmity and Factionalism Within Groups or Between Groups C. Using Hostile Third Parties Against Target Groups D. Disseminating Derogatory Information to Family, Friends, and Associates of Targeted Group Leaders and Members E. Disseminating False Info to Funding Sources F. Use and Abuse of Government Processes [IRS audits for purposes of harassment, and other Federal, State and local regulatory and other agencies] G. Spreading False Rumors of "Communist" Influence of a Targeted Organization" Notice that "discrediting," "embarrassing," "ridiculing" and "neutralizing" groups was the main goal and individuals were only targeted as a way to "neutralize" groups, especially if they were influential leaders of a community (such as Martin Luther King in the civil rights community). >But this inevitably leads to the question: why would anyone want >to feed me with anti-ET Roswell stories at a time (2001-4) when >I wans't "doing" anything, and there were no new Roswell >revelations=C2 of a pro-ET-nature on the horizon? That's where I >have the problem. (a) You assume the disinfo operation knew you were "doing nothing" in 2001-4, like they had you under 24/7 surveillance, (b) you assume the disinfo agents think of "book authors" as continually publishing books, like one book a year? is that really reasonable? what is reasonable then? (c) you assume Roswell investigators getting "too close to the truth" must be the targets to be "diverted" instead of simply causing mayhem with agit-prop in the broader enemy "UFO community" (d) you assume there were "no new Roswell revelations ... on the horizon." Gee, I see a bunch of "doing somethings" by you in the 2001-4 period that were clearly UFO-related and could be construed to suggest you were investigating Roswell. You lectured at the Aztec 2003 UFO Symposium in March 2003, in Aztec, NM, on "UFO Incidents in England: The British Roswells, with Nick Redfern." Along with other UFO notables who were speakers with you, Dr. Bruce Maccabee, Stan Friedman, Richard Dolan, et al. Here is the publicity blurb on your lecture: --- UFO INCIDENTS IN ENGLAND: THE BRITISH ROSWELLS, with Nick Redfern. In his first book, A Covert Agenda, Nick Redfern disclosed for the first time the startling facts surrounding the British government=E2=80=99s very own top secret UFO reports; and in The FBI Files he revealed the full extent to which the U.S. FBI was involved in the monitoring UFOs throughout the USA. In his new book, Cosmic Crashes, Nick goes one step further: to break down the barriers of secrecy surrounding the ultimate UFO conspiracy and expose the truth behind what could accurately be described as =E2=80=9CBritish Roswells.=E2=80=9D In this lecture Nick gives an overview of several of the most celebrated cases in British UFOlogy. --- Sounds like you could have been interpreted by disinfo agents as pursuing "Roswell." Then there was the press release for the Oct 1, 2003 launch, of Phenomena magazine (below). Did you write for Duat in 2002 as well? Were you writing about UFO's and/or being associated with a bunch of other well-known UFO authors such as Richard Dolan, Linda Howe, Randy Fitzgerald and Whitley Strieber? Are you among the "biggest names in the whole genre?" Whatever happened to the book on UFO hoaxer Silas Newton you were working on with Karl Pflock in the 2001-4 time frame? Weren't you interviewed on the Aztec UFO crash "case" in March 2003 by Paul Kimball for his video documentary? In fact you and I were emailing in that 2001-4 period of you "doing nothing" on UFO's and you emailed me on Sept 21, 2004, to say: "I too have been digging quietly into Roswell the last few years...." By my count "the last few years" sounds like it covers all of 2001-4. You also wrote in the same email: "Notably, it was when I began making a lot of inquiries about the Anomalies List that I got a lot of calls from these old- timers/insiders all contacting me supposedly innocently and agenda-free, which I don't believe for a moment. I take everything they say guardedly as this really is a hall of mirrors and I have no doubt that I touched a raw nerve with these people. " That sounds to me like you were saying the "old-timers/insiders" Colonel-Black Widow-Salter-Barker et al. came forth because you had "touched a raw nerve" with the disinfo people with a Roswell- related investigation (a seemingly crucial background that is not mentioned anywhere in your book). This targeting of a Roswell investigator (you) as he gets "too close to the truth" is the very same disinfo scenario you are now vigorously disputing (even though it is not my scenario). Maybe the disinformation agents read this 2003 press release and assumed you were back in the saddle, maybe they were wrong and misread it. Maybe they saw all the other signs of your activity in the UFO field and your pounding on the "Roswell" case and parallels at the Aztec March 2003 conference and the Majestic apologists' UFO conference in Nov 2003. Maybe they thought you could be a source of persuasion to Richard Dolan et al. Your new series of on-the-record interviews for the Roswell Fugo War Crimes scenario does seem to start soon after, on Dec. 6, 2003. You met the Colonel at Ryan and Bob Wood's "1st Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Conference" in Henderson, Nevada, about Nov. 15, 2003, where you were a speaker - twice! That does not seem like "doing nothing" in the UFO field in 2001-4 to attract notice from disinformation operatives. Looks to me like the kind of forum where a good new disinformation spin job like the Roswell Fugo War Crimes theory could be floated, and since this was the "1st Annual" conference presumably disinfo agents could reasonably infer there might be a 2nd or 3rd where you might speak again after they have worked you over but good. In fact here is what you spoke about in Nov 2003: "Nick Redfern & Ryan Wood - Evidence From the Archives Nick and Ryan will provide a dozen suggestive and powerful irrefutable document examples from the National Archives and Presidential Libraries that show intense interest by our government with UFOs, crash retrievals, and the technology that these visitors offer. Links to the Majestic program will be examined." "Nick Redfern =E2=80=94 Cosmic Crashes: UFO Crashes in Britain Nick Redfern will be lecturing on accounts of reported UFO crashes in England dating from the Second World War to the present day and will present documents, photographs and additional materials relating to the cases in question. He will also address claims that alien bodies have been recovered and autopsied by the British military." Here is what you spoke about in Nov 2004 at the 2nd Annual UFO Crash Retrieval Confertence: "Nick Redfern - Crashed UFOs: A Worldwide History An exciting, personal perusal of Moon Dust and other retrieval operations, includes an in-depth penetration of an apparent crash in Bolivia in 1978, with related tales of CIA and NSA deception examples." Here is the Oct 2003 Phenomena magazine press release: --- Mania Entertainment LLC Venice Beach, Los Angeles, USA. Wednesday October 1st 2003 Mania Entertainment LLC are very proud to announce the launch of PHENOMENA MAGAZINE and the accompanying website at www.phenomenamagazine.com PHENOMENA MAGAZINE promises to be a new defining moment within the alternative genre, bringing together cutting edge research and entertainment under one banner, with material written by some of the biggest names in the whole genre. PHENOMENA MAGAZINE is led by Editor in Chief, SIMON COX, previously known for his research work with various best selling authors and for his CD Rom based magazine - DUAT which was launched in 2002. Simon's team include some of the best writers in the alternative genre, including: Michael Baigent, co-author of the million selling, Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Robert Temple, author of, The Sirius Mystery. Nick Redfern, author of, Strange Secrets. [<-- NOTE!!!] Richard Dolan, author of UFOs and the National Security State. Randall Fitzgerald, author of the forthcoming, Lucky You! Other writers in issue one include, Robin Crookshank Hilton, Alan Alford, Linda Moulton-Howe, Dr. Paula Baillie-Hamilton, Dr. Sam Parnia and Whitley Streiber. --- As I discussed above disinfo does not have to target an individual investigator to "divert" from the "truth." The UFO "community" as a whole was the target of UFO disinfo ops by way of false UFO "rumor mills" (p. 102) and many people would be used as mere conduits (such as you) not "targets." Again you micromanage the disinfo op without even accepting what your own sources tell you about it as stated in your book. They said (p. 102 for example) that it was a general false UFO "rumor mill" so there does not have to be a particular pro-Roswell event or pro-ET campaign "on the horizon" to have to be "diverted." But let's examine your undocumented assertion of "no new Roswell revelations ... on the horizon" in 2001-4. In fact around the 2001 time frame various UFO researchers were tackling the General Ramey Message photographed in his hand at the debunking Roswell press conference on July 8, 1947. Dave Rudiak, Tom Carey, Neil Morris and many others were going strong on pro-ET interpretations of the Ramey Message in that time frame (it really began in 1998 and kept building). As one of the original Roswell skeptics going back to 1978 I tried very hard in 2001 to see in my reading of the Ramey Message a Mogul balloon scenario but at that time I could not. (I have since found a way to find Mogul in it but this new reading needs new evidence one way or another. You can say it's just my anti-ETH stance getting in the way, but I'm just objectively reporting the facts as I see them, as you will see below, in part.) In particular I succeeded in tentatively decrypting most of the Ramey Message in March 2001, after initial readings back in 1980 and 1985 (see Pflock's book pp. 209-210). Not just isolated words and fragmented phrases but whole connected sentences throughout. I circulated my findings _confidentially_ to more than a dozen researchers, including our beloved mutual friend Karl Pflock, in which I identified the AAF general in charge of Project NEPA as visiting Roswell and found indications of possible AEC involvement. Then lo and behold! Just a few months later the Oak Ridge AEC lady just happens to approach you at a conference in Los Angeles on or about July 28, 2001, with a wild story of a hideous Project NEPA experiment gone awry in 1947 with 15 Japanese bodies, several with "severe" "handicaps," essentially turning Roswell into the story of covering up despicable U.S. War Crimes of dangerous experiments carried out on "handicapped" Japanese prisoners of war. How convenient for the ORNL lady to come along just in time to trash my research findings on a NEPA-Roswell connection with a bogus salacious NEPA War Crime spin on Roswell had I foolishly chosen to publish my NEPA-Ramey Message findings back in 2001? (No I am not the target here, it's my NEPA-Roswell findings that would have been the target had they been widely circulated in the actual target, the UFO community, and no one could have known what day I might have done so in 2001. But hey Nick, pass on the word to MJ-12 high command or whomever that I do accept "targeting" with massive sums of money and "honey traps," do send them along! :) Fortunately I did not publish my NEPA-Ramey-Roswell findings back in 2001, but how could a disinfo op know that? I told no one what my publishing plans were. At any moment I could have posted it all on UFO UpDates or Project 1947 or SHG lists, and no one would have to know in advance. So instead of waiting for my NEPA findings to be published, they may have been anticipated with a preemptive strike by Black Widow. (AF blues do like their "preemptive strikes" all part of that "air supremacy doctrine" they're taught for channeling war testosterone.) Notice that the first mention of NEPA in the Roswell Fugo War Crimes scenario was by Black Widow in July 2001. Mr. "Levine" back in 1996 and Jim Wilson in Pop Mechanics in 1997 made no mention of NEPA. It is only after I had privately circulated my NEPA-Roswell findings to select researchers in March 2001. Then of course 9/11 intervened and this new NEPA-Roswell War Crime disinformation scenario got put on hold until covert action agencies could regroup, eventually resuming many marginal operations like this one, especially now with a vast infusion of black ops money due to 9/11. What was an "elderly lady" nearly 80 years old (p. 3) doing in LA anyway so far from Tennessee or does she live in LA now? Various Roswell-Ramey Message researchers such as Neil Morris, Ron regehr, Don Burleson, and John Pawson came up with a reading on line 2 (there are actually several lines preceding but this is the convention on numbering): "AND THE VICTIMS OF THE WRECK YOU FORWARDED TO THE" This has been interpreted as meaning alien "victims" of a UFO spacecraft "wreck" (my reading is totally different). But it could also be spun around to mean a Fugo Balloon-Horten Glider "wreck" whose "victims" were "forwarded" like they were U.S. Mail (the "forwarded" reading being one I have long objected to for it being absurd to "forward" human bodies like they were mailed packages; you "transport" or "send" bodies not "forward" them). However my March 2001 reading may actually be better for the pro-ETH Roswell group: "AND THE FINDING OF THE MAJOR WAS CONFIRMED TO THE" This reading seems to refer to Major Marcel and that his "finding" had been "confirmed," something that runs counter to my Roswell skeptic position and would seem to refute any Fugo Balloon-Horten Glider theory (especially if other lines name the AAF head of NEPA). It would seem to be an official high-level vindication of Major Marcel and his "finding." The full context of the line may make better sense but keep in mind some of the words are not deciphered as assuredly as others (for example "FORT WORTH" is 100% conclusive, which I first read in 1985, but others are not so certain). I have a full analysis which separates readings by estimated levels of certainty or confidence from 10% to 99%, with detailed analytical methodology as developed in March 2001 and circulated to researchers, but it is not ready for publication. Note these are 3 lines of text on lines 0-4 with a suggested word on the preceding line 0 in brackets [ ]: [RESULTS] WERE POSITIVE BECAUSE COOPERATION WAS SECURED FROM OFFICIALS AT THE AEC IN THE SEARCH AND THE FINDING OF THE MAJOR WAS CONFIRMED TO THE EIGHTH AIR FORCE AT FORT WORTH, TEX. In more readable sentence case format: [Results] were positive because cooperation was secured from officials at the AEC in the search and the finding of the Major was confirmed to the Eighth Air Force at Fort Worth, Tex. >>Does this mean "Al Barker" and "Bill Salter" are fake names? >>Whose name is real in the book now, among your insider >>"sources"? >Name changes from Simon & Schuster Legal: Mr. D; Mr. T; Levine.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Goldstein From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 22:52:18 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:22:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Goldstein >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:19:54 EDT >Subject: Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:17:47 -0400 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens >>Source: Phenomena Magazine >>http://tinyurl.com/8ykar >>Wednesday, August 3, 2005 >>New UFO Data >>UFOs - The Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens >>Surprising Developments >>Nick Redfern >>Phenomena Co-Editor ><snip> >Okay, I'm not going to touch this again because Nick knows what >sources I've had on this subject. >Matter of fact I'm sitting here listening to myself on Brad's >radio show via a CD of my appearance on his show. >No big mystery with what the triangles are, more of a mystery as >to why the big hush-hush by the authorities. Hello Greg, I don't know why you posted the above. You told the List that you are not going to write about flying triangles because Nick knows your sources. What does that mean to the rest of the people reading this? What does it mean that you were sitting listening to yourself on Brad's radio show? I don't listen to any UFO radio shows. Did I miss something that you have chosen to not touch, in your post? In your third sentence you implied that you have solved the mystery of flying triangles. Did I miss something in your previous posts to this List?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 North Bergen UFO Hotspot! From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:35:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:35:40 -0400 Subject: North Bergen UFO Hotspot! Source: The Hudson River Report, Hudson County, New Jersey http://tinyurl.com/bfwdb 08/05/200 North Bergen: UFO Hotspot! Jim Hague Reporter staff writer Moviegoers across America have been flocking to the theaters to see Steven Spielberg's blockbuster "War of the Worlds," which was filmed around North Jersey. But while the movie is focused on a fictional alien invasion, there are a lot of people in North Bergen who believe there have been many local invasions and sightings of unidentified flying objects (UFOs) here over the last 30 years, most of which were centered on the southeastern end of North Hudson Braddock Park. The North Bergen sightings have been documented and reported to several different agencies, such as the National UFO Reporting Center in Seattle and the Center for UFO Studies in Chicago. In fact, since the initial sighting in 1975, there have been a total of 700 sightings or incidents involving North Bergen residents over the last 30 years - easily the highest total of reported incidents in the United States. These have far exceeded those in the more famous location of Roswell, N.M. or other popular UFO sighting spots like Hudson Valley, N.Y. and Gulf Breeze, Fla. - places that have had at least 500 sightings over the years. All began with liquor store owner The UFO craze in North Bergen began in earnest on January 12, 1975, when a 72-year-old liquor store owner named George O'Barski was driving home through North Hudson Braddock Park at approximately 2:45 a.m. He began to experience some heavy static on his car radio. Then the radio went dead. O'Barski, who is now deceased, apparently heard a loud noise from above. When he glanced over his shoulder, he saw a round, flat object with glowing, rectangular windows that hovered behind his car. O'Barski later told federal officials that the object came to a stop about 100 feet ahead of his car. It was hovering 10 feet off the ground and was about 30 feet wide. It was flat at the bottom and brightly domed at the top. O'Barski said that a ladder came from the object, and somewhere between eight and 11 creatures, all looking identical, emerged. They were about three, perhaps four feet tall and all wore dark snow-suit like uniforms with helmets. Each had a small bag and a little shovel. They quickly scooped up soil samples, poured the samples into the little bags, and immediately got back onto the craft. Close encounters of the Hudson kind The obviously frightened and startled O'Barski told federal officials that the entire episode lasted like three minutes. At sunrise, O'Barski went back to North Hudson Braddock Park to make sure he wasn't dreaming. There were several holes in the soil where he had witnessed the aliens allegedly digging. But O'Barski was not alone with his sighting. A doorman who was working at the Stonehenge apartment complex across from the park on the other side of Boulevard East also noticed the glowing object hovering 100 feet over Braddock Park, he told law enforcement officials. The doorman, whose actual identity has not been revealed and now cannot be found, said that when the object started its ascent, it forced windows to be shattered in the apartment complex and split a large tree adjacent to the complex in half. It was also later revealed that O'Barski and the unnamed Stonehenge doorman did not know each other, and it was impossible for the two to collaborate on their stories. The doorman at the Stonehenge also noticed something else: The creature he spotted was not wearing a coat and the temperatures were in the teens that early morning. UFO experts investigate The O'Barski case intrigued two people who are now linked in the world of UFO investigation. Ted Bloecher was an experienced stage actor, having performed in "Guys and Dolls," "My Fair Lady," and "Oliver" on Broadway. But as a child, Bloecher was always fascinated with the study of UFOs (called ufology) and eventually became totally engulfed in O'Barski's tale. Bloecher, now a regular UFO investigator, went to interview O'Barski about his experience with the creatures, later referred to in reports as "humanoids" because of their appearance. He said he believes the creatures were just pretending to get soil samples. "Since I'm an experienced stage actor, I know very well what is a staged act and what is real," Bloecher said. "The scene of them getting soil samples was fake. It was staged. Their real target was George O'Barski. They weren't interested in soil samples. They wanted him." Another UFO researcher who was intrigued by the O'Barski story was a writer named Budd Hopkins. In fact, both Bloecher and Hopkins were so intrigued by O'Barski's saga - a story that both experts eventually believed to be real after interviewing O'Barski - that they have since teamed forces in the pursuit of other "close encounters." The two currently conduct UFO sighting seminars throughout the country. The reason Hopkins was so fascinated by the O'Barski sighting is that Hopkins had just visited a friend inside the Stonehenge apartments in North Bergen a week before the sighting. "It was more than a bizarre coincidence," Hopkins would later say. Newspaper reports were minimal after the O'Barski incident. Both the local dailies, the Jersey Journal and the now-defunct Hudson Dispatch, gave the incident a few paragraphs each. According to O'Barski's son, George, Jr., his father went to his grave thoroughly believing that what he saw that fateful evening did in fact take place. "We might have thought he was a little crazy at first, but he was certain that he saw what he did," George O'Barski, Jr. said on a recently aired A&E Network special about UFOs that focused on the North Bergen phenomenon. "It really bothered my father that people thought he was lying." As it turned out, O'Barski wasn't alone. The Stith sense In 1979, North Bergen resident Harold Stith was driving through North Hudson Braddock Park in almost the same exact location that O'Barski had traveled four years prior. Again, it was at nighttime. "My father was driving home from work, driving on Boulevard East, and he turned into the [Braddock] park," said Harold's son, Robert Stith, who lives in Secaucus. "As soon as he turned off into the park, his car just stopped dead. Then the radio went dead. A bright light came on top of the car, and then my father heard some strange things on the radio, some language that he didn't understand. He then noticed it was some sort of spaceship. The doors of the ship opened and these little grey men with big eyes came out. The next thing my father knew was that the door shut and they flew off. He thought it was like 10 minutes, but as it turned out, it was like three hours. My mother said that my father came home three hours late." Hopkins, who also investigated the Stith case, believes that Stith was abducted. "He believed that he was abducted," Robert Stith said. "We all thought he was crazy. He didn't want the story to come out because other people would have thought he was nuts." Two days after Stith had his close encounter, he told his family that he had a dream about the Miss America pageant. "My father named the winner, what she wore, what she performed, where she was from," Robert Stith said. "No one took it seriously. We didn't have an affiliation with the pageant, and we had no idea why he would pick the Miss America winner." Harold Stith's prediction came true. Two weeks later, it all happened just like Stith predicted. Cheryl Prewitt of Mississippi, the one Stith named after his dream, was crowned Miss America of 1980. "I don't think he ever had a theory as to why he could have done that," Robert Stith said. The elder Stith never predicted the future again. "Nothing ever happened with me," Robert Stith said. "I'm still waiting." Again, there was a small article written in the Hudson Dispatch about several people spotting a glowing object in North Hudson Braddock Park that evening. Eighties and '90s The local reports to the National UFO Reporting Center came to a halt for a few years, until 1985, when Ron Lee said he saw three stationary sets of lights in the area, all oval in shape. Then the lights took off into the sky. Ninetta Nappi reported the same lights as "racing blips." In 1988, two different North Bergen residents reported shapes that looked like "white and green diamonds" flying over Braddock Park. In 1993, a North Bergen school teacher, Ann Barlovich, reported seeing a "large elliptical light with an eerie glow, a blimp- like object." "I know what I saw and it wasn't like anything else I'd ever seen before," Barlovich said in the A&E special. In 1999, a resident of the Parker Imperial condominium complex said that he was standing on his balcony and was ready to take a picture of the sunset, when he noticed something peculiar. The man took the picture, then downloaded the picture to his computer and noticed three weird orbs in the photo. "I really didn't see the orbs when I took the picture," said the resident. "Only when I reviewed it later." However, he refused to show the photos to the North Bergen Reporter. 2003 On November 3, 2003, the last two sightings were reported to the National UFO Reporting Center, both from near Braddock Park. At 5:40 p.m. that day, two North Bergen residents reported seeing something in the dusky sky. One witness saw something that looked like a star, but then it moved in circles, then in a zig-zag motion. It moved for about five seconds, stopped for a bit, then continued the circular and zigzagging routine. Another witness saw the same exact thing. "At first I thought that my vision was playing with me, or may be the clouds, but I tried looking at other stars, and they did not move at all," reads the report on the National UFO Reporting Center board. "After an hour, the light became steady and stopped moving. I do not know if what I saw was a UFO, but it was too high to be a plane or a helicopter." Even Peter Jennings knows ABC News anchor Peter Jennings did a special report on UFOs in November of 2004, and he hinted about the number of sightings in North Bergen, wondering if it was just coincidence or fact- based. The A&E special report also focused an entire hour on the North Bergen sightings, especially the famed O'Barski sighting that happened 30 years ago this year. In the ABC report, the network said that almost 50 percent of Americans believe that UFOs are real, not to mention millions of individuals in other countries. Federal records of the reports have never been released to the public. Police comment North Bergen Police Chief William Galvin, a native of the township, remembers the craze from when he was a 21-year-old who had yet to become a police officer. "I just remember the hype, and then I just saw the (A&E) special on TV, and it reminded me," Galvin said. "We laugh about it. No one has ever received a call reporting a UFO to the Police Department. It is a mind boggling number to think so many have been reported them here. But as far as I know, I don't remember anyone calling the police with these cases. We might have got a call or two about strange objects, but no one ever made a big deal about it. I can't believe we're No. 1 on that list. It amazes me." Police Captain Robert Farley, a 32-year veteran of the department, said that he didn't even know about the sightings until the recent A&E special. "I never knew anything about it," Farley said. But obviously, the cases were reported. So when local people watch "War of the Worlds," they can wonder whether aliens
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 UFO Hunters Excited By Sight Of Selby 'Saucer' From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:46:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:46:39 -0400 Subject: UFO Hunters Excited By Sight Of Selby 'Saucer' Source: The Evening Post - Leeds, Yorkshire, UK http://tinyurl.com/cdov2 06 August 2005 UFO Hunters Excited By Sight Of Selby 'Saucer'... by Howard Williamson Is this saucer-shaped object seen in the sky over Selby an alien space craft? UFO investigator Russell Kellett of Filey was excited by this video footage shot by his friend Jody Holden, 23. So he has sent it to Prof Roger Green of Warwick University for close analysis. "Prof Green is open-minded about UFOs," said Russell, a member of the British UFO Hunters group. "He can tell us what the object is not. He can eliminate things like aircraft, space debris and so on. "Jody spotted this object in the sky above Abbot's Road, Selby, about 4pm on Mother's Day. It seemed about 200ft up and was perhaps a mile away. "He said it had a purple/black colour and he saw it change shape from a castle into tank and then a shamrock and finally into a saucer over two minutes. He finally lost sight of it behind houses." Russell says that Selby, along with Filey, is now one of Britain's top UFO "hot spots." He also has video footage of balls of light seen over the sea at Filey. One of his group, a former RAF pilot, is convinced they are not terrestrial craft. Russell says he has also seen flying triangles shooting out of the sea. He now has a huge video collection of UFO sightings which he is thinking of auctioning on Ebay.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:03:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 11:24:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:22:52 -0700 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:04:37 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:39:54 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >>>>To: <UFOUpdates.nul> >>>>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:36:57 +1000 >>>>Subject: Contactee Taboo <snip> >Hello Col, Rich, et al., >The main point I see is that contactees have been debunked >largely because of the inconsistencies and contradictions in the >stories they've told. >However, to a large extent, these stories were just repeats of >what the contactees were told by their alien contactors (in >cases of non-hoaxing contactees). So why blame the contactees if >they've been so overawed of their contactors as to believe them >100%? >Surely ufologists need not be obliged to assume that aliens tell >their contactees the truth and nothing but the truth! Jim: It's not what the "alien contactors" said but what Fry, Menger, and Adamski said... which was, in the case of Adamski, that he saw the other side of the Moon, which turned out not to be as he described it, as was the case with the lush Venus he described. These guys said they observed things which are not as reality
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Burns From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:12:51 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 11:34:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Burns >From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 01:04:37 +0100 >Subject: Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens >Omar Fowler, has contacted me, and to further add to the debate >Omar added this: >--- >Hi Max, >The earliest 'Triangle' report I have is 23 April 1949 at >Vicksburg, Mississippi, USA. >See: >http://www.bluebookarchive.org/page.aspx?PageCode=MAXW-PBB5-1442 >Regards, >Omar Omar Fowler sent me the following, today: --- Hi Max, You might be interested to know that in the recent Ozark Conference (USA) April 05, David Marler gave a talk on FT's and played a tape of an-old time witness, describing a 'Flat Iron' flying over Alaska at less than a thousand feet, in 1936. (I have a video of his talk). TTFN Omar
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Re: Questions Of Origin And Intent - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 06:14:05 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 11:54:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Questions Of Origin And Intent - Hatch >From: Rick Nielsen <narlarso.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:50:26 -0700 >Subject: Questions Of Origin And Intent >I readily admit I'm a novice compared to the ufology giants who >frequent these discussions. Welcome to the list Rick! >I think I understand the'significance of highly-advanced >aircraft flying over the US during the early years of post-WW2. <snip> >.. since the human race is so quick at copying and improving >technology, those UFO's observed and studied in the 1940's and >1950's have a better chance of being from non-human origins >than those observed today. I find the earlier UFOs more interesting, simply because they could not possibly be human engineered devices, assuming they were properly reported. >But I'm still fuzzy on the extra-terrestrial origin of those >aircraft and their pilots. Why couldn't they be from hidden >civilizations in natural/artificial caves/tunnels (hollow earth >theories), or from hidden partially submerged civilizations in >our largely unexplored ocean depths? Hollow Earth theories literally collapse of their own weight, as would any hollow planet. 'Hidden civilizations' in caves etc. should have been discovered by now. I would expect any 'submerged civilizations' to apply to/for seats at the United Nation, or to bitch about Japanese fishing nets, if nothing else. >If these UFOs are from extra-terrestrials whose agenda is to >improve mankind, Whoa! Who said that? If in the distant future, _we_ discover some society on another planet, would it be our mission to 'improve' them, or merely to study them? >.. then the UFOs observed and studied became a stimulus >to improving our aircraft and spacecraft technology, >haven't they? Sorry, I don't understand that. >How else might these aliens be trying improve or manipulate us? I see no compelling reason to believe that 'aliens' are trying to influence or manipulate us at all. What I do see is not inconsistent with a systematic surveillance and study of all matters pertaining to our rare and unique situation in time and a space. Now I need another beer. [burp!]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Re: Philip Corso & NSC - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 09:00:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 11:59:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC - Lehmberg >From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:03:23 EDT >Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC >>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:01:17 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:23:39 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:00:20 -1000 >>>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC ><snip> >>Is someone who rants on and on about how the military go around >>altering a person's academic credentials, revising and deleting >>his personal life history as it suits them and, presumably, >>destroying each and every record of this victim's achievements >>(to say nothing of erasing the memories of all the academics >>& colleagues who taught, or who worked with, the said victim), >>all because the said person was on the verge of becoming a >>'whistleblower', worth taking seriously? >>Anyone who accepts that such things are possible can side with >>Michael Salla. Anyone who does not (i.e. I presume, at least 99 >>per cent of this List) will side with Brad Sparks. I know which >>side I'm on. >CDA: >Dr. Salla is worth taking seriously, as Brad, Kevin, Stan Friedman, >Josh Goldstein, Dick Hall, myself and others have done at various >times, because its important to set the record straight for those >who might wander by, here or elsewhere, and just get Dr. Salla's >side of the story. He is also worth taking seriously simply >because he is one of the main proponents of exopolitics, and its >important for ufology to make a very clear, and public, >distinction between the fringes - like exopolitics - and the >serious study of the UFO phenomenon, just as it was important to >make the distinction, years ago, between >the contactees and the serious study of the UFO phenomenon. >Kudos to Brad and Kevin for their recent efforts. Dr. Salla is worth taking seriously... as might be indictated by an individual aspiring to uncover some real truth about all this high strangeness uncurling around us, because it is important to set the record straight for those wandering by, here or elsewhere... persons who might be incompletely informed by a single, largely unsuccessful (through no fault of their own... lo' these _many_ years) take on the UFO/ET/Abduction conundrum refusing to go _away_. Dr. Salla is worth taking seriously, because he is not shy about prosecuting his very _much_ provoked suspicions with regard to truth embargoes, institutional duplicities, unethical cover-ups, and even cosmic conspiracies... perhaps to embrace an, ironically, not so out of the box 'tried and true' sociological approach like "politics" taken to a 'next' level - exo-politics? A digression. What if Earth found a heretofore undiscovered civilization on the far side of the moon, even if only a 'human' one. Would not a comparatively honeymooning diplomatic mission not be quickly followed by a more pragmatic _political_ one? We'd have to look for a way to talk to these people, trade with them... learn from them if we could. What is gained in the long term that we continue to deny that they are even there? These wouldn't be Earthmen, remember. We'd have to understand them, or worry wastefully and woefully in their regard. A political extension, then would not be nonsense... it is only what we have _ever_ done. After this only comes the efficacy of the personalities involved... or the tragic lack of same. We're not talking about that. Distinctions should be made with regard to approaches to a 'problem' perhaps, but only for the purposes of seeing what worked amongst the approaches, not as a club to enforce some scientistic (sic) exclusivity that is just not breaking through a very real and obvious truth-embargo courtesy of the corrupted mainstream. Think about it... in this case science is not politics, science is the humble panderer to the hijacked mainstream and the crumbs falling from social politics' plate. Moreover, good science is ignored because the establishment cannot afford to validate it and continue to be the establishment. That status quo _has_ lately become more an evil snake eating its tail. Forgetting that the jury is _way_ out on the aggregate history of ufology (from Clark to cockamamie and from Hall to Meier!) because of closed institutions, dark agencies, and, yes, fascist (leaning?) authoritarian governments... IAGs not remotely prone to the encouragement of an informed populace I submit... Fogetting the preceding... the thinking individual is encouraged to keep a wide aspect, see where the money goes, and why, and judge a tree by the fruit it produces. There is more going on than what's going to be remotely verified in even an _earnest_ lab-coater's test tube, especially when that test tube is contaminated by a bogus, if plausible, deniability, scarred by insufficient funding, and otherwise invalidated by a hostile support system... an attack-dog puppet media, or a shadowy 'illuminati'... keep a wide aspect... the angrier and more character assassinating the argument? The more ones attention should be drawn. Kudos to anyone with ears to hear and eyes to see... persons unimpressed with authoritarian obstinacy and insulted, intellectually, by a fatuous homocentricity... persons dismayed by institutional cowardice and offended by same... persons knowing that _it's_ all a 'little' bigger than we are, accelerating towards us as we speak and that we can embrace it or let it pass us by... persons feeling that pretending superiority is not being superior, and that we can catch this train or let it run us down? These persons, persons unwilling to drink the consoling kool-aid; however reassuring it tastes or however it puts you back into an illusion of safety and control? Kudos to you.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Re: Contactee Taboo - Hamilton From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 08:54:28 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 12:05:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Hamilton >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:22:52 -0700 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:04:37 +0100 (BST) >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo <snip> >Hello Col, Rich, et al., >The main point I see is that contactees have been debunked >largely because of the inconsistencies and contradictions in the >stories they've told. >However, to a large extent, these stories were just repeats of >what the contactees were told by their alien contactors (in >cases of non-hoaxing contactees). So why blame the contactees if >they've been so overawed of their contactors as to believe them >100%? >Surely ufologists need not be obliged to assume that aliens tell >their contactees the truth and nothing but the truth! Jim, I knew many of these contactees personally and even became a contactee of sorts, myself. No trips in a flying saucer though. I believe that some of the contactee experiences were real, but one of the major problems is that a few of them, and this includes Adamski, decided to embellish and fabricate as time went on. He was not the only one to do so. Some were fabricators from the beginning. There were a few, not always those who had written books or spoke from lecterns, that had baffling encounters with human- looking beings who walked among us without detection. Like Tim Good believes he had such an encounter, I too believe I had with two men, but it is no more than an anecdotal tale and I was given no great insight into their mission or purpose. The experiences I had in the 1950s involved experiments with ESP - telepathy - to invite them in for a flyover. This happened so many times and was witnessed so many times that I just took it for granted. My dear Aunt turned white as a sheet when she saw this and here I thought she believed my reports all along. This sort of contact has not happened in years now, but I am still puzzled by those events and wonder just what was going on during those experiences. The ESP experiences alone diverted me from my pursuing an engineering career when I attended college. Instead I pursued courses that would lead to a career in parapsychology, but alas,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 The Queeensland X-Files From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 12:31:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 12:31:40 -0400 Subject: The Queeensland X-Files Source: The Sunday Mail - Brisbane, Queensland, Australia http://tinyurl.com/8ns9e 07aug05 Our X-Files Kate Patterson Hidden files, cover-ups and pressure on witnesses to "forget" the UFOs they say they saw =96 these are the Queensland X-Files. Australian UFO Research Centre investigator Dominic McNamara has spent two years uncovering restricted files from the Federal Government's top-secret national archives. For the first time, The Sunday Mail is able to disclose three sightings previously marked classified and deemed to be a matter of national security. Mr McNamara said there was little doubt the files =96 detailing UFO sightings between 1950 and 1970 =96 were deliberately hidden or made difficult to find. "We are under the impression that some files are yet to be found or they are in something deeper that we are never going to get a look at," he said. Mr McNamara said Queensland had a spate of sightings for which there did not seem to be much explanation. "It's a bit of a hot spot," he said. "The bureaucratic solution is to contain it, especially if your mandate is to be able to explain what goes on in the sky. "There were a number of sightings in that time, where there was something really strange going on in Queensland. "The best evidence we have are the witnesses who have risked their social lives, their career and their sanity to come forward at a time when it was extremely difficult to do so and make a report." The engineer said there was too much unexplained activity to simply discount extra-terrestrial life. He said sightings tended to peak around the time humans extended their push into the skies, with events such as rocket launches or nuclear bombs. Mr McNamara said a lot of people thought he was "mad" and compared his work as a UFO investigator to that of TV character Fox Mulder of The X-Files. "It's hard for people to consider that there's such a thing as alien life, but it's harder to accept that there can't be any," he said. The sightings include: Unidentified Aircraft Witnessed by Harold Jackwitz at Wulkuraka, west of Ipswich, on July 14, 1958, at 1.45pm. The object was seen by 12 members of a construction gang employed at the partly built electric shunting and marshalling yards. Mr Jackwitz, of North Ipswich, described the object as round, silent and cloud-like, giving off light reflection, solid in construction, but emitting no sound or any obvious means of propulsion. When seen, it was to the northwest and apart from one period where it appeared to hover, the direction remained constant until visual contact was lost. Bruce Stephens, of Auchenflower in Brisbane, who was at the location, made observations of the phenomenon through his theodolite for about eight minutes. He drew a detailed sketch. Interrogators reported, "the possibility of it being an aircraft is most unlikely... the observers gave straightforward information, showed no tendency to embellish and their details were identical". No RAAF or civil aircraft was airborne or operating within these confines at the time. Unusual Sighting Roland Roberts, witnessed a UFO at Daunia Station, via Nebo, near Mackay, on June 24, 1965, at 6.45pm. "Saucer shape with silver dome top and black underneath... with lights around the side of it brilliant bluish white," Mr Roberts wrote. He included a sketch of his sighting. He described the object moving from southwest until it vanished in a northeast direction. "It had a constant red jet tail or slip stream at the rear the colour did not vary," the report read. "Never seen anything move as fast as the object observed." Mr Roberts was a grazier at his homestead when he saw the object, which he said "would have been between 30 to 50 feet (9m to 15m) across, could see no legs or landing gear under the object". Mr McNamara said there was great interest in this sighting because there was a boat which made a similar UFO report in Darwin. Flying Object Police officer Leslie Gray saw a UFO from his address at Kedron in Brisbane on November 12, 1966, at 7.55pm. Mr Gray, then 36, said he was watching Russian satellites from his back yard with his family when a slightly illuminated boomerang-shaped object travelled overhead. "I said to the children, come and look and try and remember what you've seen because no one will ever believe you," he told The Sunday Mail this week. The sighting was confirmed by his then-wife Elva and two children Robyn, then 13, and Stewart, then 5. He described the object moving from the north to the south before it disappeared about 30 degrees above the horizon. Mr Gray said lights in straight lines covered the object and there was a faint glow outlining the whole object, giving the impression of a brighter light above it. "I thought no one's going to believe me, but I would like to get it recorded," he said. No aircraft were reported as being in the area. "Being a policeman I knew that you don't ring the police and talk about things like that, so I called a friend in the air force," he said. Mr Gray said he was interviewed soon after he reported it, but "he was the most uninterested person I have ever met and thought I was crazy," he said. "I haven't heard a thing since." Mr Gray said a newspaper article appeared soon after about a banana-shaped object burnt into the ground in Victoria. Mrs Gray said it had been hard to convince others. "People would brush you off, saying you've been drinking, but we'll never forget it."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 18:26:18 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 12:37:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Bourdais >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:01:15 -0500 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:21:33 +0200 >>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs > >>>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:33:38 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 04:37:27 EDT >>>>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs ><snip> >>the obvious contradiction between the series of secret service >>agents giving you there strange revelations, and at the same >>time explaining that it is a horrible secret, to hide at all >>costs. Well, I suppose I could go on, but this is enough, >>already, to understand that your story smells strongly of >>disinformation. >Additionally, with regard to the framers of a suspected cover- >up, believing in a monstrous and sociopathic United States is >preferable to an admission that we are being visited by off >planet intelligent beings and interacting with same. Given >current events? Self-contained institutional evil of human >contrivance is an _easy_ sell. Yes, I am afraid you are right. UFO secrecy in general, and Roswell in particular, are fairly easy to condon, because many people, including in the big media, just don't want to hear about that. For many, the most insane tale will do better than to have to open the big black box of UFO secrets. The respected French newspaper, Le Monde, recently published articles on famous hoaxes. In one, titled The Impossible Rumor Of Roswell, there were about ten lines, with as many mistakes, on Roswell. I wrote a letter, but I got only the standard reply to reader's letters. However, I don't agree (again!) with Nick Redfern when he says that interest for UFOs is going down. There are a small number
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Hale From: Roy Hale <vinyl.lover10.nul> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 12:53:36 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 11:42:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Hale >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 17:59:52 -0700 >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch <snip> >I have no interest in dividing or conquering you or the UFO >community - UFOs are not that important to where I would bother >expending so much energy. I have much better things to do. Nick, I think the following links do show how much time and energy you have expended on the UFO subject. From the Hull UFO Society Home Page: http://beehive.thisishull.co.uk/default.asp?WCI=SiteHome&ID=2813&PageID=12959 From Coast to Coast website AM (George Moory): http://www.coasttocoastam.com/guests/691.html From Destinationspace.net: http://www.destinationspace.net/ufo/govdocs/redfernintro.asp Nick Redfern Log (Q&A)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Re: Philip Corso & NSC - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 07:18:45 -1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 15:13:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC - Salla >From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:03:23 EDT >Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC >>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:01:17 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC ><snip> >>Is someone who rants on and on about how the military go around >>altering a person's academic credentials, revising and deleting >>his personal life history as it suits them and, presumably, >>destroying each and every record of this victim's achievements >>(to say nothing of erasing the memories of all the academics >>& colleagues who taught, or who worked with, the said victim), >>all because the said person was on the verge of becoming a >>'whistleblower', worth taking seriously? >>Anyone who accepts that such things are possible can side with >>Michael Salla. Anyone who does not (i.e. I presume, at least 99 >>per cent of this List) will side with Brad Sparks. I know which >>side I'm on. >CDA: >Dr. Salla is worth taking seriously, as Brad, Kevin, Stan Friedman, >Josh Goldstein, Dick Hall, myself and others have done at various >times, because its important to set the record straight for those who >might wander by, here or elsewhere, and just get Dr. Salla's side of >the story. He is also worth taking seriously simply because he is one >of the main proponents of exopolitics, and its important for ufology >to make a very clear, and public, distinction between the fringes - >like exopolitics - and the serious study of the UFO phenomenon, just >as it was important to make the distinction, years ago, between >the contactees and the serious study of the UFO phenomenon. >Kudos to Brad and Kevin for their recent efforts. I thank Paul Kimball for taking the exopolitical perspective seriously. I do however take exception to his attempt to locate exopolitics at the fringes of what he describes as "the serious study of the UFO phenomenon". Exopolitics is neither at the fringes, nor is it something relatively new to UFO studies that I, Steven Greer, Alfred Webre or others have introduced. I am presently writing a short history of exopolitics for the forthcoming inaugural edition of the Exopolitics Journal which will explain the evolution of exopolitics: www.exopoliticsjournal.com First let me give a couple of definitions of exopolitcs. One is my favored definition and the second is based on an earlier post to the List. My favored definition is "Exopolitics is the study of the key actors, institutions and processes associated with the extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH)." Another definition was raised in an earlier post and is based on the exobiology model: Exopolitics is "a branch of politics concerned with the possibility that life forms are visiting the Earth, and with the problems of adapting Earth politics to deal with visiting aliens." http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/jul/m20-040.shtml Defined in either way, exopolitics is neither very new nor at the fringes of Ufology. Using either of the above definitions, it is very clear that the father of exopolitical thought, though not the term, is none other than Maj Donald Keyhoe. Keyhoe's seminal books, the "Flying Saucer Conspiracy" and later "Aliens from Space" firmly examine the political or national security aspects of the UFO phenomenon. Keyhoe was the first to seriously explore the idea of a political cover-up of the phenomenon that was orchestrated at the most senior levels of the national security system and imposed upon mid level ranks of the U.S. military who were eager to have the truth emerge. Keyhoe was the first to bring attention to the General Voyt Vandenberg's suppression of the First Estimate of the Situation offered by the Project Sign Team in October 1948 after this was revealed by Capt Ruppelt. Vandenberg's order to have the first Estimate declassified and burned (so no record would be kept) clearly demonstrates that national security dimension to the ETH, and thereby was a policy that directly gave birth to exopolitics as a credible examination of events. In the Flying Saucer Conspiracy, Keyhoe described the political cover up of huge 'flying saucers' or 'motherships' several miles in width that began circulating the Earth and had the USAF desperate to cover up evidence supporting the ETH, and keep it off the front pages. Keyhoe's work was read and accepted by millions of Americans as having credibility due to his ability to ferret out information from a very leaky national security system. In "Aliens from Space" Keyhoe describes the political machinations by the CIA, USAF and other agencies in preventing Congressional inquiries of the UFO phenomenon and the ETH. Keyhoe also cited information how the first SETI experiments under Dr Frank Drake did pick up radio signals from Epsilon Eridani and how this was covered up. I could go on but it can be clearly demonstrated that serious investigations of the political aspects of the UFO phenomenon is neither new nor a fringe element unless some want to argue that Donald Keyhoe and NICAP were at the fringe of the UFO phenomenon. What did happen was the very successful marginalization of Keyhoe and others who pursued an 'exopolitical perspective. Keyhoe was removed from Directorship from NICAP in 1970 ostensibly for financial mismanagement but moreso because of his dedicated exopolitical approach to the UFO phenomenon and the conspiracy to cover up evidence of the ETH. There is much evidence to show that Keyhoe's ouster and later implosion of NICAP was orchestrated by the CIA. I want to emphasize that much of the information Keyhoe got for his views was from whistleblowers or those within the national security system 'leaking' information. Keyhoe accepted whistleblower testimony because he understood the national security far better than most UFO researchers. Since Keyhoe's demise the great tragedy for UFO research was that researchers from the 'physical sciences such as Dr Allen Hynek, Dr James MacDonald and Stanton Friedman became the 'exclusive' standard bearers of UFOlogy with their rigorous 'scientific' pursuit of the UFO phenomenon. Hynek, MacDonald and Friedman and other astronomers, physicists, meteorologists, etc., eschewed 'conspiracy theories' of a national security cover up and believed that more concerted scientific research would yield the truth. Keyhoe's exopolitical perspective quickly moved from the center stage of UFO research and his extensive citation and use of whistleblower testimonies was forgotten. Now, the exopolitical perspective is considered part of the fringe of serious UFO research. UFO studies as it is presently concentrated is a shadow of what it once was under Keyhoe's leadership and suffers from an acute shortage of resources and organization. I have noted the demise of organizations such as NICAP, CUFOS and FUFOR, and the current difficulties of MUFON and can only conclude that this is brought about by UFO researchers being out of touch with the many millions or 'mainstream public' who accept the ETH and/or that a national security cover up at the highest level is underway. The 2002 Roper conclusively demonstrates that as much as 70% of Americans believe the government is covering up the truth about the ETH. The 'mainstream public' interested in the UFO phenomenon are not debating the reality of UFO sightings or trying to put together another definitive compendium of the best available evidence, but are trying to make sense of the extensive evidence supporting the ETH which grows by the day. Keyhoe's exopolitical perspective never disappeared, it was just pushed into the margins by what was essentially an intellectual coup d'etat where those using a strictly scientific methodology defined the field of Ufology once Keyhoe's influence was removed. What I and others such as Steven Greer have done is to bring in evidence from whistleblowers and others that confirm the political aspect of the UFO phenomenon and the political cover up of the ETH. The exopolitical perspective enjoys support from the 'mainstream public' as evidenced by the many millions inspired by Greer's Disclosure Project and the 2001 National Press Club Conference. Greer, myself and others are promoting an exopolitical perspective that Keyhoe first championed where the testimonies of whistleblowers was center stage in understanding the UFO phenomenon and the parameters of the national security cover-up underway. Paul Kimball cites researchers such as Brad Sparks, Kevin Randall, Stanton Friedman, Josh Goldstein, Richard Hall and himself as exemplary models for systematically defining the parameters of the "Serious Study of the UFO phenomenon" in terms of a 'scientific method' for studying UFO sightings, the abduction phenomenon, FOIA documents, etc. It's worth pointing out that aside from Stanton Friedman, none of these gentlemen are scientists that enable them to authoritatively establish the scientific method as championed as the exemplary model for UFO research. In Stanton's case while he worked as nuclear physicist, he doesn't have a PhD nor does he have a record of peer reviewed publications in scientific journals. While Kevin Randall does have a PhD, it's in psychology, not any of the physical sciences cited as the model for the serious study of the UFO phenomenon. Also, I am not aware of Dr Randall having published psychology papers in peer reviewed psychology journals or practiced clinical psychology. In each case the above are very competent UFO researchers who have strong biases towards a scientific method championed by Hynek, MacDonald and Friedman. I respect Richard Hall's long experience and fidelity to the 'scientific study of the UFO phenomenon. However, in adopting Hynek's and MacDonald's methodology, he has eschewed the exopolitical approach taken by his mentor Major Keyhoe who did very seriously consider the testimony of whistleblowers or those leaking classified information to him from the national security system. Perhaps Richard Hall would like to explain to the list how Maj Keyhoe chose the sources of his information so we may get an idea of how whistleblower testimonies can be authoritatively cited? As far as Brad Sparks is concerned, he has a sharp mind and access to much historical information that he creatively spins to support his 'revisionist theories' but his systematic debunking of whistleblower testimonies and eschewal of the ETH doesn't make him in my mind a good model for what UFO research is about. As for his background, I have no information on that other than he co-founded CAUS. Perhaps he might enlighten me and others about what it is in his background that might entitle him to be recognized as laying down the scientific parameters of UFO research. Paul Kimball has a law degree and is an independent filmmaker. Josh Goldstein is a detective. I don't say this in any way to demean their investigative abilities or research competence, it's just that none are scientists with competence in developing appropriate methodologies for investigating hypotheses such as the ETH. In general, the above researchers cited as the models for UFOlogy eschew systematic analysis of the political cover up of the ETH on the basis of biases that EXCLUSIVELY favor scientific study of 'hard evidence' in the form of UFO sightings, and FOIA documents. The cover up of evidence, the testimony of whistleblowers/'leakers', the manipulation of documents, intimidation of witnesses supporting the ETH is not at the fringe of UFO studies. It was at the center stage of UFO studies at its formation and under Maj Keyhoe who blended together an exopolitical perspective together with the more rigorous scientific analysis of UFO data. I am reminding this List that a movement that forgets its origins and seminal thinkers loses part of its own identity and consequently gets out of touch of the mainstream population. There is no doubt that UFO research as currently defined by researchers cited by Paul Kimball is in crisis. They are out of touch with the many millions who do accept the ETH and know that a political cover up exists. Exopolitics may be on the fringe of this list given the biases that are systematically promoted by the leading protagonists here, but exopolitics is certainly not at the fringes of UFO research, but belongs at center stage along with the scientific method advocated by MacDonald, Hynek, etc. Finally, either of the two definitions of exopolitics cited above herald an emerging trend of researchers, experiencers, whistleblowers who do systematically explore the political processes associated with the cover up of the ETH. The various methodologies to be used for exopolitics will naturally be strongly contested, but this should be done in a way that recognizes the complexities in exopolitical research, and without excluding data that fits outside the artificially constructed paradigm of "Serious Study of the UFO phenomenon".
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Re: Contactee Taboo - Renaud From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 13:34:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 15:16:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Renaud Inasmuch as the subject of contactees has been raised, I'd like to toss in my two cents. Question: it you wanted to discredit Ufology, what better way would there be than to associate it with often poorly educated people who tell outlandish, contradictory tales laced with what will ultimately prove to be bad science? In the era of Adamski, Fry, Menger, Bethurum, Nelson et al, there was no space program, and our ability to examine the other planets was limited to what Earth-based telescopes could see. Would it not be useful to those with an interest in keeping Ufology on the fringe to have a crew of "useful idiots" relating deliberately false astronomical information given to them by their contacts =97 whether aliens or humans =97 for the sole pupose of engendering ridicule and incredulity in the public and the scientific community as the facts became known? IMO, there was a method to the madness of having just about every planet in the system populated by advanced =97 and usually beautiful =97 beings. As science advanced and the true nature of the planets became known, the tales from the contactees would be exposed as nonsense, and that would by association discredit Ufology as a whole. Are there aliens on Earth? Qui sait? But if there are, and they don't want to be interfered with, it would behoove them to see to it that those who research such things are marginalized and ignored by the media and the public. One would say that if that were the case, it worked extremely well indeed. Events such as the Giant Rock conventions stained Ufology with what has proven to be an indelible mark of incredibility that no amount of effort has been able to conceal, let alone expunge. Unfortunately, in trying to divorce itself from the show-biz aspects, Ufology has swung too far in the other direction. "Scientific" Ufology has erected a filter that usually screens out anything other than CE1K. Who knows what valuable information that policy has rejected?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 Re: Canadian Connection To Roswell UFO Crash? - From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 13:55:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 15:19:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Canadian Connection To Roswell UFO Crash? - >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 17:09:41 +0200 >Subject: Re: Canadian Connection To Roswell UFO Crash? >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:08:56 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Roswell UFO Crash - A Canadian Connection? >>Hi Everyone! ><snip> >>There a history about man-made flying saucers that is still >>largely unknown and shrouded in mystery that may not only >>explain the Roswell UFO crash but all UFO sightings - and there >>may even be a Canadian connection too! ;o) >Hello Nick, >Sorry to tell you - I don't believe one word of this. >Gildas Bourdais Hi Gildas! No need to be sorry for being skeptical. Without further facts to back up claims of man-made flying saucers since the alleged UFO crash at Roswell in 1947, I wouldn't expect anyone to beieve otherwise. Although I am one of those who does not accept Nick Redfern's thesis that Roswell has a down-to-Earth explanation, does not mean that I too believe that the "ET/UT" is the only one for the UFO phenomenon, especially for the years since WWII. On Thursday I visited the Winnett Boyd collection at the Trent University archives in Peterborough, Ontario (about a one and a half hour drive northeast of Toronto) where I founded a numbered copy of the "Secret" July 1952 Project Y Report in Box 5, File Folder 24 along with a carbon copy of Winnett Boyd's signed oath of secrecy. Although this secret report had nothing to do with classified information on nuclear reactor designs or advanced jet engine technology which make up the bulk of these archives, I did not expect to find this report among these documents. While leafing through this red cover spirl bound report with my white gloved fingers (as required when handling documents at most archives), I was shocked to see that the shape and technical specifications, including weapon bays, etc. for this horseshoe shaped flying saucer closely resembled "America's nuclear flying saucer which 'Popular Mechanics' wrote about... In the coming days I hope to meet with another researcher here who has a copy of the Project Y2 report - another Canadian designed flying saucer which most of us are familiar with having seen it on the cover of Project Blue Book report 14. Projects Y and Y2 are in addition to the other more famous but not so secret Avro Car flying saucer, also built here in Canada, that did little more than hover..... The mistake we ufologists make is trying to explain all UFOs and UFO-related phenomena as ET in origin. If we try to understand UFOs only under this interpretation we will never uncover the whole truth and insure that ufology remains in its present stagnate and frustrated state for many more years to come. If our own flying saucer technology was indeed aided by aliens or was inspired by the incredible altitudes and speeds of "real" UFOs observed flying through our skies, even those of us who favour the ET explanation as the only one for UFOs would want to learn all about man-made saucers too. If you are interested, I would be happy to send you a copy of this incredible "secret" Project Y report of a flying saucer designed in 1952 to fly at least three times higher than present aircraft and at speeds much faster than the Concorde. Although not saucer shaped, Avro also designed and proposed to built a triangular shaped "Space Threshold Vehicle" before the company was shut down permanently and many of the top Canadian aerospace engineers left for the U.S. to help the Americans with their goal of sending humans to another world - the Moon - and bringing them back safely (and building America's nuclear flying saucer too?). Nick Balaskas BTW - While at Trent University, I tried to meet with a professor there who told me about the strange very fast forming and extremely high altitude contrails he has observed from his mobile atmospheric observatory. He has mysteriously disappeared and his researchers and staff at the university do not known
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 6 'Contactee' Ederman's Exopolitics Institute's From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 11:34:05 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 15:26:16 -0400 Subject: 'Contactee' Ederman's Exopolitics Institute's "Contactee" Jean Ederman's Speech Is Exopolitics Institute's First Public Event The following was posted at Michael Salla's "prepare4contact" Yahoo Group forum. The man who claims he piloted an Arcturian spaceship (in 2004) will give a presentation in Hawaii, launching the public work of the Exopolitics Institute. Jean Ederman serves on the main Board of Directors with Michael Salla and Ed Komarek. A growing (and large) Advisory Board also exists. While a justifiable - IMO - "contactee taboo" exists, that will - also IMO - not deter the success of modern day contactee prophets. In these uncertain times, people crave certainty and clear pictures and these contactees serve to fulfill these needs. Even when, as Penn and Teller would observe, it involves the "decay" of the truth! --- Aloha All, Dr. Salla's new Exopolitics Institute, located on the Kona side of the Big Island of Hawaii, is sponsoring its first public event. And this is going to be an extremely important and special evening. One of the ways in which the Exopolitics Institute will utilize its member supported resources is by sponsoring paradigm shifting speakers such as French contactee Jean Ederman for the education and upliftment of the general public. The time is finally here in which an organization has emerged which will support contactee's and whistleblower's, and offer them a forum to present information about benevolent ET contact interactions and so much more. The Exopolitics Institute proudly presents a lecture entitled: THE SCIENCE OF EXTRATERRESTRIALS: A CONTACTEE'S EXPERIENCES by Eric Julien (aka Jean Ederman) author of La Science des Extraterrestres & Introductions by Dr. Michael Salla - author of Exopolitics, Political Implications of the Extraterrestrial Presence and founder of the Exopolitics Institute. Jean Ederman in his first U.S. public appearance will reveal his latest information concerning his remarkable knowledge of extraterrestrial science and his contact experiences. Jean disseminated the life altering: "Change the World" message that began circulating the internet in October 2003. The message based on Jean's experience with extraterrestrials asked the fundamental question: "Do You Wish Us to Show Up?". After Jean's mysterious 'disappearance' in March 2004 he has reemerged with a remarkable story to tell about his continued extraterrestrial contacts and the science revealed to him. Spending several months on the French Island of Reunion, Jean dedicated himself to writing up what he had learned and returned to France in July for the release of first book, La Science des Extraterrestres (currently being translated as "The Science of Extraterrestrials"). Jean is currently working on his next book describing his contact experiences spanning several decades up to and including his mysterious disappearance. Jean, professionally known as Eric Julien, is an accomplished aviation expert with fighter pilot, traffic controller, airport management and civilian pilot credentials. To learn more visit: http://www.exopoliticsinstitute.org/Institute-EricJulien- home.htm Location: Sheraton Keauhou Bay Resort and Spa, Big Island of Hawaii 78-128 Ehukai Street, Kailua-Kona Ph: 808 930 4900. (from Alii Drive go 1 1/2 miles past Keahou Shopping Center Center & turn RIGHT onto Kaleiopapa St.) Time & Date: 6:30 - 9:30 pm, August 15, 2005 Cost: $20 (Exopolitics Institute Members $10) For those unable to attend this lecture, the event will be taped and made available for sale on DVD through the Exopolitics Institute website. For those who join as Exopolitcs Institute Members, a discount will be offered on this DVD and all future products and events. The Institute uses membership support in order to make such events possible and in gratitude offers many benefits to its supporters. For more information about membership, please visit: http://www.exopoliticsinstitute.org/Institute-Membership.htm About the Sponsor: The Exopolitics Institute is an incorporated Hawaiian non-profit educational foundation dedicated to promoting public awareness and activism concerning the extraterrestrial hypothesis that earth is being visited by off planet civilizations. For those familiar with www.GalacticDiplomacy.com, this website is also closely supported and affiliated with the Exopolitics Institute. REGISTER EARLY: Seating is limited to 60 people, so please register early to guarantee your place. You can register online using Paypal: http://www.exopoliticsinstitute.org/Events-Aug15-05.htm or by phoning 808 323 3400 for MC/VISA. In Peace,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 7 Re: Contactee Taboo - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 20:25:51 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 08:56:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Dickenson >From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 08:54:28 -0700 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:22:52 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:04:37 +0100 (BST) >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>The main point I see is that contactees have been debunked >>largely because of the inconsistencies and contradictions in the >>stories they've told. <snip> >Some were fabricators from the beginning. <snip> >Like Tim Good believes he had such an encounter, I too believe I >had with two men, but it is no more than an anecdotal tale and I >was given no great insight into their mission or purpose. Hello All, Sorry haven't followed this thread but, after reading some contactee reports and also arm's-length profiles of contactees, _have_ come from a position of total skepticism to believe the 'three degrees of strangeness' that an eminent ufologist proposed. [that is 1) a sighting from a distance seems slightly odd 2) person close to event feels some weirdness 3) actual contact imposes 'dreamlike' (or 'nightmare') state on experiencer - I can't remember who first proposed this, was it Vallee? ) That dreamlike distortion of reality also seems to affect the reported conversations, whether spoken or not - so the contactee is given info on concepts s/he wouldn't normally know of and indeed gets 'wrong' in later account - i.e. expressing concepts of time, distance, energy (and even places) all in slightly or obviously _wrong_ terms, so account sounds ridiculous and hoaxish. What are the options? Are all contacts gov't hoaxes? Or public- (or self-) hoaxes? (don't believe those since so much varied evidence). Maybe human individuals are just being tested in a playful sort of way? So is the human brain incapable of receiving "correct" info in a contact situation? I don't know - and don't think there's good reason for anyone else to. Just glad it's not happened to me (and never thought I'd think that), since it seems from reports to be severely challenging and stability-threatening experience. Cheers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 7 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 16:14:56 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 08:59:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/aug/m06-009.shtml On my previous post (see link above) these lines of my March 2001 reading of the Ramey Message lines 0-4 came out with the lines of text wrapped around wrongly. To make sure the line divisions come out even if text-wrapped again I will insert slash marks "/" to divide the lines (below): / [text not legible on this line] [RESULTS] /WERE POSITIVE BECAUSE COOPERATION WAS SECURED FROM OFFICIALS AT THE /AEC IN THE SEARCH AND THE FINDING OF THE MAJOR WAS CONFIRMED TO THE /EIGHTH AIR FORCE AT FORT WORTH, TEX. In more readable sentence case format: / [Results] /were positive because cooperation was secured from officials at the /AEC in the search and the finding of the Major was confirmed to the /Eighth Air Force at Fort Worth, Tex. The reason the line division is important is because the exact spacing to the left edge margin is precisely determined by the less clear and/or partially illegible words "EIGHTH AIR FORCE AT" in front of the absolutely clear "FORT WORTH, TEX." This exact spacing in turn helps narrow the range of possible readings of partially illegible words and phrases on other lines. The word on the illegible line 0 (line zero) is in brackets [RESULTS] because it is not an actual reading but merely
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 7 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 16:38:18 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 09:04:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks >From: Roy Hale <vinyl.lover10.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 12:53:36 +0100 >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 17:59:52 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch <snip> >>I have no interest in dividing or conquering you or the UFO >>community - UFOs are not that important to where I would bother >>expending so much energy. I have much better things to do. >Nick, >I think the following links do show how much time and energy you >have expended on the UFO subject. >From the Hull UFO Society Home Page: http://tinyurl.com/9v85t Yes indeed rather than "doing nothing" on UFOs from 2001-4 as he repeatedly protested in the same post, here he was giving a lecture on UFOs to the Hull UFO Society on May 8, 2001. He is advertized as being involved on a continuing, ongoing basis in the following "current" UFO activities rather than having "dropped" the UFO subject in 1999: "Currently Nick writes for numerous magazines and journals, including Graham Birdsall's best-selling news-stand publication UFO Magazine. "He has... his own news feature on UFOs, mysteries, the paranormal and conspiracy theories that is published in four British newspapers..... "Nick Redfern writes a monthly column on UFOs for the internet site, Destination Space. He also co-writes a bi-weekly column for the internet site, UFO City. In addition, Nick, Jon Downes and Richard Freeman have a monthly, 2-hour link-up with the Jeff Rense radio show in the USA to discuss the latest UFO and cryptozoology news from the U.K. ... "Come and see Nick at the Hull UFO Societies meeting which takes place on 8th May 2001 and starts at 7.30pm." http://tinyurl.com/8kfsb Also noticed the following Redfern appearances on the Jeff Rense conspiracy radio show in 2001 and 2003 (I could not check later years 2002-3 very easily) 2001 Feb 20 TUE From England Nick Redfern & Jon Downes UK UFO/Crypto Report Mar 20 TUE Nick Redfern/Jon Downes: UK UFO/Crypto Report May 15 TUE Nick Redfern & Jon Downes UK UFO Report May 20 SUN Nick Redfern & Jon Downes UK UFO Report June 19 TUE Nick Redfern/Jon Downes: Uk Ufo-Crypto Report Aug 21 TUE From England Nick Redfern/Jon Downes UK UFO/Crypto Report Aug 25 SAT From England Nick Redfern/Jon Downes UK UFO/Crypto Report Week of 5-25-03 thru 5-31-03
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 7 Re: Contactee Taboo - Deardorff From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 14:21:21 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 09:06:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Deardorff >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:03:47 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:22:52 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo <snip> >>The main point I see is that contactees have been debunked >>largely because of the inconsistencies and contradictions in the >>stories they've told. >>However, to a large extent, these stories were just repeats of >>what the contactees were told by their alien contactors (in >>cases of non-hoaxing contactees). So why blame the contactees if >>they've been so overawed of their contactors as to believe them >>100%? >>Surely ufologists need not be obliged to assume that aliens tell >>their contactees the truth and nothing but the truth! >It's not what the "alien contactors" said but what Fry, Menger, >and Adamski said... which was, in the case of Adamski, that he >saw the other side of the Moon, which turned out not to be as he >described it, as was the case with the lush Venus he described. >These guys said they observed things which are not as reality >shows them to be, so the contactees are discounted on their own >words, not what they tell us their alien mentors relate to them. Rich, It's no problem for the ETI to transport a contactee to wherever they wish and tell him it's Venus, or the Moon's back side, or whatever. Or, if they view out of a UFO port, they're seeing through some sort of screen on which the ETI could plant whatever images they wished. Previous assumptions that the UFO aliens wouldn't be smart enough to have a strategy of dealing with us, and wouldn't treat their contactees to some disinformation as part of their
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 7 Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 15:29:20 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 09:13:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs - Sparks >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 18:26:18 +0200 >Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 15:01:15 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Japanese Balloons The FBI & UFOs <snip> >However, I don't agree (again!) with Nick Redfern when he says >that interest for UFOs is going down. There are a small number >of recent TV shows which point rather to the contrary, even in >my skeptical and rationalist country. We've already forgotten about the 2-hour ABC Peter Jennings UFO show earlier this year? Indeed here in the U.S., all of the major television broadcast networks have UFO/alien shows beginning the Fall season next month. For some reason there has been no comment on that on UpDates.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 7 Re: Contactee Taboo - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:36:48 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 09:15:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Clark >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 13:34:43 -0400 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >Inasmuch as the subject of contactees has been raised, I'd like >to toss in my two cents. >Question: it you wanted to discredit Ufology, what better way >would there be than to associate it with often poorly educated >people who tell outlandish, contradictory tales laced with what >will ultimately prove to be bad science? How interesting. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, was there not once upon a time quite a busy contactee named Bob Renaud? Couldn't be the same guy, could it? Naawwww..... Of course not. No, I'm sure. Really...? Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 7 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 18:05:11 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 09:19:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Boone >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:11:19 -0500 >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:31:06 EDT >>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:52:46 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch ><snip> >>>You are creating the same scenario for UFOs that was used for >>>the Cold War and other government disonformation projects. But >>>UFOs are not in the same category and if the government is truly >>>sending forth all these people to confuse or addle ufologists, >>>then the country is in a crazier state than anyone can imagine. >>In fact UFOs were in the same category as the Cold War as stated >>in numerous policy documents including the TOP SECRET Air Force >>Intelligence AIR 203 Study of 1948-9, the Project Grudge final >>report of Aug 1949 which stated that UFOs posed a psych war >>threat, the CIA Office of Scientific Intelligence studies in >>1952 of the UFO psych war potential in the Cold War, the >>Robertson Panel Report which echoed the CIA/AF conclusions, etc. >>The Cold War did not end until the 90's, after the Roswell >>phenomenon was already in full swing for a decade. Any Cold War >>disinfo ops on the UFO subject would have incorporated Roswell >>into the 90's at least. If the covert ops agencies had >>additional reasons besides the Cold War to go after the UFO >>groups then these would survive the end of the Cold War. And as >>I pointed out in previous postings the US covert ops budget has >>been massively boosted since 9-11 so all sorts of "crazier" and >>"crazier" projects can now get funded. >Brad: >As usual your erudition sets the record straight. >And you reminded me that the FBI was into scouring >meaningless >groups in the 60s and part of the 70s. >I was contacted by the Bureau once to provide information on >the >manager of the MC-5, who was a cohort of mine. (I didn't sign >on.) >And I wondered why the FBI would be fooling around with a >heavy >metal band and a guy like me, who was a minor reporter for a >local newspaper. >So maybe your notion that disinfo agents will spend time with >least imprtant of us has some credibility. Intense! I was going to comment in this area but was a tad bit shy as I'm still bowled over at the sheer volume of data that proves how wrongly treated citizens of this country were by those oathed to defend us. Everyday I read on this List how researchers, witnesses, whistleblowers, and victims have to defend themselves over and over again. I'm also aware of the anatomy of character assassination. That's the enemy of us all. The invalidators, the character assassinators, the nullifyers, the naysayers. Especially the ones we pay to do it. Sorry if I'm sounding a wee bit preachy, but this thread coincides with me watching a marathon run of The Andy Griffith Show, for my money the best television series ever. The episode I'm watching in in regard to the importance of history. Of course it focuses on American History. I remember seeing this episode as a kid. History is important and seeing as each day you all are making it, one day I'm sure there'll be millions of people who will be thankful that you are. It really boils me to read about citizens being the target of unlawful and hostile attacks by those doing so under the color of authority. Orchestrated Invalidation. How our own people could engage in such activities knowing full well they're against the Constitution. Some people will do anything for a dollar and a promotion. That's where we attack, log those wiseacres and hostiles and pin their mugs up at the post office.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 7 Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Burke From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 15:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 09:22:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Burke >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:52:47 -0400 >Subject: Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens >I don't know how well-known the events in Wytheville, VA, are to >the UFO community in general. The Editor of the local newspaper >there collected hundreds of accounts for some twenty years. In >the 80s and 90s the numbers of accounts seemed to decline almost >to the level of "background noise", and I haven't heard of any >accounts in the last five years. Bob In 1988 Danny Gordon of WYVE wrote a book called, Don't Look Up, regarding the 1987-88 wave of UFO sightings in Wytheville, VA. Although it was a great book, Empire Publishing did a lousy job of printing the book - several blank pages and other errors. Nevertheless, Danny Gordon got a UPI Award for his work on this case. When the book came out and the story really broke, the UFO research community was all abuzz about the goings on in Gulf Breeze, FL, which completely overshadowed this far more interesting, far better-documented wave. In February of 1989, I was in North Carolina on business and decided to head up the Blue Ridge Parkway with a camera at the ready in the hope of getting some saucer photos. I made note of locations mentioned in Gordon's book and marked them on a map. I then planned a route through these areas. Although I didn't see any UFOs, I spoke to a good number of people who discussed their sightings. At one point, I was pulled over by a police officer, who became suspicious about the rental car which was creeping around the area at slow speed, as if on a "case out" for a burglary. When I informed him that I was on a "saucer hunt" after reading Gordon's book, he told me of his mother's sighting of a UFO which hovered in her yard, below treetop level! He told me that the sightings ended during the fall of 1988 as far as he knew. You live in a beautiful part of the world there, Bob! While driving around there, it made perfect sense to me why visitors from another world would choose that area to go sightseeing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 7 The Ley Hunter 1969-1976 From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 00:16:34 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 09:24:39 -0400 Subject: The Ley Hunter 1969-1976 The Ley Hunter was a newsletter which covered Ley lines, but also occasional articles about UFOs and other paranormal topics. I discovered that all the issues from 1969-1976 are now on-line at: http://www.tlh6976.fsnet.co.uk/ This was the second incarnation of the newsletter edited by Paul Screeton, the earlier version having been edited by Jimmy Goddard at the time it ceased publication.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 7 Re: Contactee Taboo - Gottschall From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 17:57:30 +1000 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 09:27:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Gottschall >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:03:47 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:22:52 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >Jim: >It's not what the "alien contactors" said but what Fry, Menger, >and Adamski said... which was, in the case of Adamski, that he >saw the other side of the Moon, which turned out not to be as he >described it, as was the case with the lush Venus he described. >These guys said they observed things which are not as reality >shows them to be, so the contactees are discounted on their own >words, not what they tell us their alien mentors relate to them. Hi Rich, I hear what you're saying and this is a reasonable objection that has turned people off the Adamski case. But we are talking about alien technology here. Adamski spoke of spacecraft that were miles long. Would it be unreasonable to consider then that those spacecraft would be able to create force fields around themselves which would produce such livable conditions? Or at the very least have bases there that created habitable conditions for beings much like ourselves. Would it also be unreasonable to think that these force fields would be of a camouflaging nature? If not, would it be
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 7 Re: Philip Corso & NSC - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 08:29:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 09:29:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC - Maccabee >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 07:18:45 -1000 >Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC >>From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:03:23 EDT >>Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC <snip> >....... it can be >clearly demonstrated that serious investigations of the >political aspects of the UFO phenomenon is neither new nor a >fringe element unless some want to argue that Donald Keyhoe and >NICAP were at the fringe of the UFO phenomenon. >What did happen was the very successful marginalization of >Keyhoe and others who pursued an 'exopolitical perspective. >Keyhoe was removed from Directorship from NICAP in 1970 >ostensibly for financial mismanagement but moreso because of his >dedicated exopolitical approach to the UFO phenomenon and the >conspiracy to cover up evidence of the ETH. There is much >evidence to show that Keyhoe's ouster and later implosion of >NICAP was orchestrated by the CIA. I want to emphasize that much >of the information Keyhoe got for his views was from >whistleblowers or those within the national security system '>leaking' information. Keyhoe accepted whistleblower testimony >because he understood the national security far better than most >UFO researchers. Whistleblowers provide info on illegal actvities of the gov't, whether they are classified activities or not Leakers provide info on gov't activities which are properly or improperly classified. If you think withholding info on Alien Flying Craft/ET's/whatever is actually illegal, then the proper term is whistleblower. However, more likely, IMHO, the withholding is "legal" (although perhaps not a "smart" thing to do) so those who provide info are "leakers".
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 7 Objects May Exist But Sightings Fall Short From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 11:01:17 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 11:01:17 -0400 Subject: Objects May Exist But Sightings Fall Short Source: Fosters Online - Dover New Hampshire http://www.fosters.com/ Sunday, August 7, 2005 UFO Buffs: Objects May Exist, But Sightings Often Fall Short By Terry Date Staff Writer tdate.nul EXETER =97 New Hampshire UFO investigators say the objects probably exist, but a recent sighting on the state's Seacoast highlights how most such reports don't fly. Peter Geremia of Rye, Mutual UFO Network director for New Hampshire, says 80 percent of such instances can't be substantiated. Geremia, who works in the electronics industry and instructs people in UFO investigation, said he recently spoke to an Exeter man who claimed to have seen a strange craft on the afternoon of July 20. Geremia was unable to schedule an on-site investigation. "That to me raises a red flag," said Geremia, who, along with Kathleen Marden of Stratham, appeared on an Aug. 1 History Channel show on UFO investigation. Marden is the N.H. director of field investigator training for the Mutual UFO Network in New Hampshire Geremia said anyone can call in a sighting to a UFO clearinghouse, but investigation and corroboration lend credibility. No one else reported the July 20 sighting, and many should have seen an object that big, reported to be twice the size of an aircraft carrier, he said. The only other report so far has come from an East Kingston woman who said she saw a similar looking object at a later date. The Exeter man, who lives on Louisburg Circle off Brentwood Road, reported his sighting to the National UFO Reporting Center in Washington. The man, who has not released his name to the public, also spoke about the sighting to the "The Exeter News- Letter," which arranged to have an artist draw a picture of the craft. The artist, 20-year-old Angela Gram, said in an interview with Foster's Daily Democrat that she visited the retired Navy man and sketched what he said he saw from his yard. She said he described the UFO's angle, how it moved slowly and changed color from metallic-silver to orange-yellow with flamelike colors below it. Before disappearing, the object stretched to about twice its size. Later at home, Gram created a color picture of the cylindrical object and e-mailed it to the man, who goes by the name "David." "He was pretty satisfied," Gram said. Gram said while she never has seen a UFO, she didn't find it difficult to reproduce one. She sketches a lot, and likes sketching alien creatures. She also said she finds UFOs interesting. "They are pretty much a part of our culture," she said. UFO sightings are a worldwide phenomenon, Geremia said. He also is a member of the volunteer Mutual UFO Network, an international organization. Throughout the world, people think of Exeter as a hotbed of UFO sightings, he said. There's tremendous interest in UFOs said John Schuessler, of Littleton, Colo., international director of the Mutual UFO Network, which has about 2,500 members. He said recently a lot of sightings come out of South America. Schuessler said he has received a flurry of calls as well as numerous Web site contacts since Geremia and Marden appeared on the History Channel. Geremia said he only has conducted one investigation in the Granite State in recent years, but there was a time when it was home to many sightings. "Investigators had their hands full in the late 1950s and early 1960s," he said. Author John Fuller wrote books about two particular cases, one in Exeter, the other in the White Mountains. "Incident at Exeter" tells the story of a young man's and an Exeter police officer's sighting of a large object with bright pulsating lights in a Kensington field near the Exeter town line on Sept. 3, 1965. Others in the area reported similar sightings the same night. Geremia interviewed two of the people, Norman Muscarello and police officer Eugene Bertrand, before putting together a slide presentation of the incident. Geremia found those he interviewed to be very credible. "There is no doubt they saw what they said they saw," Geremia said. Peter Davenport, National UFO Reporting Center director, also interviewed Muscarello and Bertrand and others in the local police department. He was then a 17-year-old reporter on assignment with the Derry News. Davenport, who has master's degrees in business and in the genetics and biology of fish, said he found the sources to be sincere and believable. Davenport's interest in UFOs was sparked in July of 1954, when he and hundreds of others saw a strange red object in the sky over St. Louis. Davenport, 57, said he believes in UFOs based on his research and years of investigating. "It appears UFOs are real in the sense that we are dealing with ships," he said, "sophisticated crafts seemingly under intelligent control that do not originate from our planet." Only about 20 percent of reports merit further investigation, Schuessler said. One important job of an investigator is to accompany someone who has reported a sighting to the exact spot they saw it, take a photograph, and have the person draw what the object looked like and where it appeared on the photo, Geremia said. Other tools of the investigator's trade include binoculars, camera, topographical maps, a tape recorder, questionnaire and forms, he said. Marden, with the Mutual UFO Network, taped hours of interviews with her aunt, Betty Hill, who died last October. Hill and her husband, Barney, who died in 1969, claimed to have been followed by an alien craft with humanoids aboard in 1961. The couple were main characters in Fuller's book, "The Interrupted Journey." The Hills, traveling along Route 3 in the White Mountains, claimed to have been abducted by the extraterrestrials. As evidence, they pointed to two hours that they could not account for, broken watches, Barney's scuffed shoes, Betty's torn dress and strange spots on their vehicle. They later recalled the incident under hypnosis. Marden, 57, said she knew her aunt and uncle to be serious- minded people. "I know they were honest and level-headed people," she said, "and I think the evidence stands on its own that something anomalous happened to them in the White Mountains that night."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 7 Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 11:06:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 11:32:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Shell >From: John Burke <isunburn.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 15:40:40 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens <snip> >In 1988 Danny Gordon of WYVE wrote a book called, Don't Look Up, >regarding the 1987-88 wave of UFO sightings in Wytheville, VA. >Although it was a great book, Empire Publishing did a lousy job >of printing the book - several blank pages and other errors. >Nevertheless, Danny Gordon got a UPI Award for his work on this >case. <snip> I've heard of that book, although I've never seen it. Although there was a lot of activity in 1987-88, there was also a lot before that. The significant increase in sightings seemed to coincide with the bulding of the section of Interstate 81 that goes past Wytheville, and the increase in traffic that brought. I guess just more people around to see the phenomena, which may have been there all along. Reminds me of the sudden increase of sightings of the Loch Ness critter when the road around the loch was built. Actually, by the time of the 1987-88 events, my dad was nearing retirement age and showing a lot less interest in such things. I think he had concluded that we would never really know what was going on. Although I have driven the roads around here at all hours of day and night for over forty years, I've never seen a flying triangle or anything else unusual in this part of Virginia. My Virginia UAP sightings took place in Northern Virginia along route 50 about an hour from DC and just outside of Roanoke. Both were in the early 70s. One was a mid- day sighting of a "cigar volante" on a clear and cloudless summer day. Two of us watched it practically from horizon to horizon, almost directly overhead, part of the time through good 8X binoculars. The other was a night sighting of three sets of anomalous flashing lights. They appeared to be on three round objects but it was too dark that night to make out anything other than the lights. I filed reports (with Nicap, I believe) on both. I've seen a couple other UAP, but both during travels. One was in Atlanta and the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 60,000th Archived Message From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 07:42:15 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 07:42:15 -0400 Subject: 60,000th Archived Message This post is to mark the 60,000th message at the UFO UpDates Archive.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Peter Jennings Passes On From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 01:00:50 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 07:50:18 -0400 Subject: Peter Jennings Passes On Hats off and heads bowed for Peter Jennings. Whether we agreed with him or not you have to admit he was a brave man. Cigarettes have got to be the scourge of Earth. Cutting lifespans and robbing us of great and talented people.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Contactee Taboo - Renaud From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 12:36:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 07:59:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Renaud >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:36:48 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 13:34:43 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>Inasmuch as the subject of contactees has been raised, I'd like >>to toss in my two cents. >>Question: it you wanted to discredit Ufology, what better way >>would there be than to associate it with often poorly educated >>people who tell outlandish, contradictory tales laced with what >>will ultimately prove to be bad science? >How interesting. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, was there not >once upon a time quite a busy contactee named Bob Renaud? >Couldn't be the same guy, could it? Naawwww..... Of course not. >No, I'm sure. >Really...? Was there? Hmmmm... now isn't _that_ a coincidence? Personally I don't know of any "busy" contactee by that name, athough there was a write-up about some fellow in the March '86 edition of the less-than-scholarly "Fate", where a Jerome Clark was listed as
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: 'Contactee' Ederman's Exopolitics... - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 18:53:26 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:15:21 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Contactee' Ederman's Exopolitics... - Bourdais >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 11:34:05 -0700 >Subject: 'Contactee' Ederman's Exopolitics Institute's First Event >"Contactee" Jean Ederman's Speech Is Exopolitics Institute's >First Public Event >The following was posted at Michael Salla's "prepare4contact" >Yahoo Group forum. The man who claims he piloted an >Arcturian spaceship (in 2004) will give a presentation in >Hawaii, launching the public work of the Exopolitics Institute. >Jean Ederman serves on the main Board of Directors with >Michael Salla and Ed Komarek. A growing (and large) Advisory >Board also exists. >While a justifiable - IMO - "contactee taboo" exists, that will - also IMO - not deter the success of modern day contactee prophets. In these uncertain times, people crave certainty and clear pictures and these contactees serve to fulfill these needs. Even when, as Penn and Teller would observe, it involves the "decay" of the truth! >--- To All, I am sorry to have to warn everybody about Jean Ederman, alias Eric Julien. I am not the best qualified to talk about him here in France, but I did meet him several times a couple of years ago. He presented himself as Eric Julien, and I had a good first contact. He was developping an impressive theory on three-dimensional time, and of UFO propulsion using these dimensions somehow, but I am not a physicist and and I am easy to impress in that field. We were a small, interested, group and we had further contacts. However, doubt began to appear between us, especially when he wanted to collect money for a vast project to build a flying saucer! He wanted me to write a book on him, without autor's fee. I submitted his theory (very well presented, by the way) to some physicists, who expressed strong doubts, whereupon I decided to distance myself from him. Later, I heard that he was making more and more extraordinary claims of being contacted, of being taken aboard an alien ship to learn how to pilot it (in fact, he is pilot). He disappeared, and reappeared in very bizarre circumstances. Some early supporters then began to denounce him publicly as a fraud. I don't know the details, being no longer interested at all, but I feel I have a responsbility here to warn everyone who cares to listen.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Contactee Taboo - Frison From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 15:26:18 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:28:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Frison >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 17:57:30 +1000 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 13:58:25 -0300 >>Subject: Interesting UFO Tidbit <snip> >I hear what you're saying and this is a reasonable objection >that has turned people off the Adamski case. But we are talking >about alien technology here. Adamski spoke of spacecraft that >were miles long. >Would it be unreasonable to consider then that those spacecraft >would be able to create force fields around themselves which >would produce such livable conditions? >Or at the very least have bases there that created habitable >conditions for beings much like ourselves. >Would it also be unreasonable to think that these force fields
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 14:17:09 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:34:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Rudiak >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 16:14:56 EDT >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/aug/m06-009.shtml >On my previous post (see link above) these lines of my March >2001 reading of the Ramey Message lines 0-4 came out with the >lines of text wrapped around wrongly. To make sure the line >divisions come out even if text-wrapped again I will insert >slash marks "/" to divide the lines (below): >/ [text not legible on this line] [RESULTS] >/WERE POSITIVE BECAUSE COOPERATION WAS SECURED FROM OFFICIALS AT THE >/AEC IN THE SEARCH AND THE FINDING OF THE MAJOR WAS CONFIRMED TO THE >/EIGHTH AIR FORCE AT FORT WORTH, TEX. >In more readable sentence case format: >/ [Results] >/were positive because cooperation was secured from officials at the >/AEC in the search and the finding of the Major was confirmed to the >/Eighth Air Force at Fort Worth, Tex. Brad, It certainly wasn't my intention to get into the reading of the Ramey memo in this thread, on which you have already made many, many excellent points. However, you have brought it up in the context of your reading mentioning the "AEC" and how counterintel might want to discredit this reading by creating the phony story of the Horten flying wing/balloon carrying a nuclear reactor for NEPA, etc., etc. However, I don't see how "AEC" could be over there in the left margin. More below. >The reason the line division is important is because the exact >spacing to the left edge margin is precisely determined by the >less clear and/or partially illegible words "EIGHTH AIR FORCE >AT" in front of the absolutely clear "FORT WORTH, TEX." This >exact spacing in turn helps narrow the range of possible >readings of partially illegible words and phrases on other >lines. The problem here isn't with the words being "less clear and/or partially illegible." The problem is whatever words are there are literally _invisible_, since they sit under Ramey's big fat thumb. Only the last 3 letters just to the right of his thumb are visible, though not exactly clear. This alone calls into question where you have placed your left margin, which affects the readings of the two lines above, including "AEC." Another problem is your left margin resides 3 characters left of the most clearly visible character up in the address header. Everything left of that looks like blank paper to me, including all paper left of Ramey's thumb where you have "AEC" and other characters. Here is another rendition of your reading, noting: 1) where Ramey's thumb covers up the words and letters, indicated in parenthesis ( ), 2) where the left margin is up in the address header, 3) the left edge of the paper, and 4) the blank area in between. (Note: The left edge of Ramey's thumb is a little uncertain relative to the characters because of bending of the paper, but where I have indicated it is pretty close.) |------Left edge of paper | |----Blank left margin | | |--Leftmost characters in address header |--|--| /--WERE(POSITIVE )BECAUSE COOPERATION WAS SECURED FROM OFFICIALS AT THE /--AEC(IN THE SEA)RCH AND THE FINDING OF THE MAJOR WAS CONFIRMED TO THE /-(EIGHTH AIR FO)RCE AT FORT WORTH, TEX. Thus I don't see where "AEC" comes from. There is just blank paper there left of Ramey's thumb and left of the characters in the address header. Even if we assume "officials" is correct, how can we assume the sentence is reading "officials at the AEC" instead of something else, like "officials at the base?" The left margin in my reading is 10 characters right of yours, which I've taken some guff for because it is indented 7 characters from the address header left margin. That leaves only 3 or 4 characters under Ramey's thumb, which I have also been criticized for guessing, even though far less guessing is involved. One of the words was "the" and the other was the rest of "ranch" as in "operation at the (ran)ch". Under the circumstances, invisible words like "AEC" and "positive" are certainly highly questionable. Since we are all speculating as to why some Roswell counterintel sting would be going on now, consider how this latest theory seems to try to be everything to everybody, including skeptics of the theory like me and you in some ways. (E.g., reading "victims of the wreck" instead of "finding of the major" would be consistent with the Horten wing/balloon junk because it supposedly had "victims," albeit human instead of alien). Where would you come in? You think Roswell and the Ramey memo have something to do with the AEC. Your theory is they were trying to throw people off the track by discrediting your take on all this (among other things). But maybe you have it backwards. Maybe (among other things) they want to convince you that you have it right when you really have it wrong, because you think they are trying to discredit you, a clever bit of reverse psychology. I'm not saying this is the case. But, unfortunately, in the counterintel "hall of mirrors," where much BS is deliberately mixed with some truth, anything becomes possible. As you rightly point out, the ultimate purpose of such disinfo is to endlessly muddy the waters and leave us bickering with one another over who has it more "right," instead of doing more productive things.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Prince Albert, Saskatchewan Formation Update From: Paul Anderson - CCCRN News <cccrnnews.nul> Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:36:16 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:36:16 -0400 Subject: Prince Albert, Saskatchewan Formation Update Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 14:39:25 -0700 Subject: Prince Albert, Saskatchewan Formation Update CCCRN NEWS E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network August 7, 2005 http://www.cccrn.ca _____________________________ UPDATE - PRINCE ALBERT, SASKATCHEWAN FORMATION The circle in slough grass found north of Prince Albert, Saskatchewan on July 22 is apparently only a roughly circular area of lodging in a depression in the field and not a crop circle formation, after additional studies by Beata van Berkom of CCCRN Saskatchewan. We then continue to wait for the first verified crop circle reports for this year... _____________________________ CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent free to your e-mail
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Philip Corso & NSC - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 18:47:47 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:45:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC - Friedman >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 07:18:45 -1000 >Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC >>From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:03:23 EDT >>Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC >>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:01:17 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >><snip> >>>Is someone who rants on and on about how the military go around >>>altering a person's academic credentials, revising and deleting >>>his personal life history as it suits them and, presumably, >>>destroying each and every record of this victim's achievements >>>(to say nothing of erasing the memories of all the academics >>>& colleagues who taught, or who worked with, the said victim), >>>all because the said person was on the verge of becoming a >>>'whistleblower', worth taking seriously? >>>Anyone who accepts that such things are possible can side with >>>Michael Salla. Anyone who does not (i.e. I presume, at least 99 >>>per cent of this List) will side with Brad Sparks. I know which >>>side I'm on. >>CDA: >>Dr. Salla is worth taking seriously, as Brad, Kevin, Stan Friedman, >>Josh Goldstein, Dick Hall, myself and others have done at various >>times, because its important to set the record straight for those who >>might wander by, here or elsewhere, and just get Dr. Salla's side of >>the story. He is also worth taking seriously simply because he is one >>of the main proponents of exopolitics, and its important for ufology >>to make a very clear, and public, distinction between the fringes - >>like exopolitics - and the serious study of the UFO phenomenon, just >>as it was important to make the distinction, years ago, between >>the contactees and the serious study of the UFO phenomenon. >>Kudos to Brad and Kevin for their recent efforts. >I thank Paul Kimball for taking the exopolitical perspective >seriously. I do however take exception to his attempt to locate >exopolitics at the fringes of what he describes as "the serious >study of the UFO phenomenon". >Exopolitics is neither at the fringes, nor is it something >relatively new to UFO studies that I, Steven Greer, Alfred Webre >or others have introduced. I am presently writing a short >history of exopolitics for the forthcoming inaugural edition of >the Exopolitics Journal which will explain the evolution of >exopolitics: >www.exopoliticsjournal.com Unlike the exopoliticians, those of us who have been talking about a government coverup are very careful to support our conclusions with evidence (That word that you seem to have forgotten about Michael) No evidence has been provided to back up the claims of 2 degrees by Bob Lazar and 6 by Michael Wolf Kruvant and of course their other whistleblower claims. Therefore by exopolitical reasoning they must have what they claimed because the government has covered it all up. Totally inconsistent with this would seem to be your false claim that I have no record of publication in scientific journals. Surely you should have 'reasoned" that I must since you couldn't find any evidence. I will list some below. >First let me give a couple of definitions of exopolitcs. One is >my favored definition and the second is based on an earlier post >to the List. >My favored definition is "Exopolitics is the study of the key >actors, institutions and processes associated with the >extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH)." >Another definition was raised in an earlier post and is based on >the exobiology model: >Exopolitics is "a branch of politics concerned with the >possibility that life forms are visiting the Earth, and with the >problems of adapting Earth politics to deal with visiting >aliens." >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/jul/m20-040.shtml >Defined in either way, exopolitics is neither very new nor at >the fringes of Ufology. Using either of the above definitions, >it is very clear that the father of exopolitical thought, though >not the term, is none other than Maj Donald Keyhoe. Keyhoe's >seminal books, the "Flying Saucer Conspiracy" and later "Aliens >from Space" firmly examine the political or national security >aspects of the UFO phenomenon. >Keyhoe was the first to seriously explore the idea of a >political cover-up of the phenomenon that was orchestrated at >the most senior levels of the national security system and >imposed upon mid level ranks of the U.S. military who were eager >to have the truth emerge. Keyhoe was the first to bring >attention to the General Voyt Vandenberg's suppression of the >First Estimate of the Situation offered by the Project Sign Team >in October 1948 after this was revealed by Capt Ruppelt. >Vandenberg's order to have the first Estimate declassified and >burned (so no record would be kept) clearly demonstrates that >national security dimension to the ETH, and thereby was a policy >that directly gave birth to exopolitics as a credible >examination of events. >In the Flying Saucer Conspiracy, Keyhoe described the political >cover up of huge 'flying saucers' or 'motherships' several miles >in width that began circulating the Earth and had the USAF >desperate to cover up evidence supporting the ETH, and keep it >off the front pages. Keyhoe's work was read and accepted by >millions of Americans as having credibility due to his ability >to ferret out information from a very leaky national security >system. In "Aliens from Space" Keyhoe describes the political >machinations by the CIA, USAF and other agencies in preventing >Congressional inquiries of the UFO phenomenon and the ETH. >Keyhoe also cited information how the first SETI experiments >under Dr Frank Drake did pick up radio signals from Epsilon >Eridani and how this was covered up. I could go on but it can be >clearly demonstrated that serious investigations of the >political aspects of the UFO phenomenon is neither new nor a >fringe element unless some want to argue that Donald Keyhoe and >NICAP were at the fringe of the UFO phenomenon. >What did happen was the very successful marginalization of >Keyhoe and others who pursued an 'exopolitical perspective. >Keyhoe was removed from Directorship from NICAP in 1970 >ostensibly for financial mismanagement but moreso because of his >dedicated exopolitical approach to the UFO phenomenon and the >conspiracy to cover up evidence of the ETH. There is much >evidence to show that Keyhoe's ouster and later implosion of >NICAP was orchestrated by the CIA. I want to emphasize that much >of the information Keyhoe got for his views was from >whistleblowers or those within the national security system >'leaking' information. Keyhoe accepted whistleblower testimony >because he understood the national security far better than most >UFO researchers. >Since Keyhoe's demise the great tragedy for UFO research was >that researchers from the 'physical sciences such as Dr Allen >Hynek, Dr James MacDonald and Stanton Friedman became the >'exclusive' standard bearers of UFOlogy with their rigorous >'scientific' pursuit of the UFO phenomenon. Hynek, MacDonald and >Friedman and other astronomers, physicists, meteorologists, >etc., eschewed 'conspiracy theories' of a national security >cover up and believed that more concerted scientific research >would yield the truth. Keyhoe's exopolitical perspective quickly >moved from the center stage of UFO research and his extensive >citation and use of whistleblower testimonies was forgotten. >Now, the exopolitical perspective is considered part of the >fringe of serious UFO research. Michael, I start just about all my lectures with 4 major conclusions. The first is that the evidence is overwhelming that eartrh is being visited by alien spacecraft i.e. _some_ UFOs are alien spacecraft. 2.The subject of "flying saucers represents a kind of Cosmic Watergate meaning some few people in most goovernment have known since at least July 1947 that _some_ UFOs are alien spacecraft. I show the lies of Sec. of the Air Force Donald Quarles. I note General Bolender,s statements about sightings which could effect national security are _not_ part of the Blue Book System. I quote Judge Gesell. I show the blacked out and whited out NSA and CIA UFO documents.Nobody has been more vocal than I have about the facts about the coverup. >UFO studies as it is presently concentrated is a shadow of what >it once was under Keyhoe's leadership and suffers from an acute >shortage of resources and organization. I have noted the demise >of organizations such as NICAP, CUFOS and FUFOR, and the current >difficulties of MUFON and can only conclude that this is brought >about by UFO researchers being out of touch with the many >millions or 'mainstream public' who accept the ETH and/or that a >national security cover up at the highest level is underway. The >2002 Roper conclusively demonstrates that as much as 70% of >Americans believe the government is covering up the truth about >the ETH. I will take some credit for that Michael, with my multitude of media appearances and in my books Crash At Corona and TOP SECRET/MAJIC, and my paper, The Cosmic Watergate. All are available. Sorry you missed them. Sorry, but CUFOS and FUFOR are still around. MUFON has had two consecutive very successful Annual Symposia in Denver. >The 'mainstream public' interested in the UFO phenomenon are not >debating the reality of UFO sightings or trying to put together >another definitive compendium of the best available evidence, >but are trying to make sense of the extensive evidence >supporting the ETH which grows by the day. Keyhoe's exopolitical >perspective never disappeared, it was just pushed into the >margins by what was essentially an intellectual coup d'etat >where those using a strictly scientific methodology defined the >field of Ufology once Keyhoe's influence was removed. >What I and others such as Steven Greer have done is to bring in >evidence from whistleblowers and others that confirm the >political aspect of the UFO phenomenon and the political cover >up of the ETH. The exopolitical perspective enjoys support from >the 'mainstream public' as evidenced by the many millions >inspired by Greer's Disclosure Project and the 2001 National >Press Club Conference. Greer, myself and others are promoting an >exopolitical perspective that Keyhoe first championed where the >testimonies of whistleblowers was center stage in understanding >the UFO phenomenon and the parameters of the national security >cover-up underway. >Paul Kimball cites researchers such as Brad Sparks, Kevin >Randall, Stanton Friedman, Josh Goldstein, Richard Hall and >himself as exemplary models for systematically defining the >parameters of the "Serious Study of the UFO phenomenon" in terms >of a 'scientific method' for studying UFO sightings, the >abduction phenomenon, FOIA documents, etc. It's worth pointing >out that aside from Stanton Friedman, none of these gentlemen >are scientists that enable them to authoritatively establish the >scientific method as championed as the exemplary model for UFO >research. In Stanton's case while he worked as nuclear >physicist, he doesn't have a PhD nor does he have a record of >peer reviewed publications in scientific journals. One fact right: I don't have a PhD... and have never claimed I have and have, whenever possible, correctd people like Larry King, when thay have said I do. Try these on for size. All you had to do was ask.: Co author Chapter "Experimental Shielding" in textbook "Reactor Shielding for Nuclear Engineers" ed. by Norman Schaeffer TID 25951 (Book is 788 p.) "Indirect Measurement of Nuclear Heating in Poson Control Vanes" Transactions of American Nuclear Societ: 12:1 p. 25 "Experimental Evaluation of Boron Carbide Modified Beryllium Oxide Shield Matrices" TANS 10:1 p. 393 "Use of the Transport Code DTK, for Shielding Design and Analysis TANS 7:2 p. 354 "Measurments of Secondary Gamma Rays from Tungsten, Stainless Steel, and Borated Steel". TANS 4:2 p. 266 "Preliminary Shield Design for Nuclear Electric Space Power Plants" withDr. David Cocharan, invited paper AIEE Meetings Denver 62-1236 40p. "Realistic Evaluation of Shadow Shields for Space Nuclear Systems" International Symposium on Aerospace Nuclear Proopulsion" published in IRE Trans. on Nuclear Science NS91,378-84 There were numerous classified technical documents. Two worth noting because they were eventually declassified are these "External Reports (which needed several levels of approval for external distribution) "Radiation Shielding Tests Performed in GE Outside Test Tank in the period March-June 1958" APEX 581, 109p. "An Analysis of Late 1957 and Early 1958 Lid-Tank Experiments Pertaining to XMA-1 Shield Design" (XMA 1 was a nuclear Aircraft Design) APEX 524 55p. >While Kevin >Randall does have a PhD, it's in psychology, not any of the >physical sciences cited as the model for the serious study of >the UFO phenomenon. Also, I am not aware of Dr Randall having >published psychology papers in peer reviewed psychology journals >or practiced clinical psychology. >In each case the above are very competent UFO researchers who >have strong biases towards a scientific method championed by >Hynek, MacDonald and Friedman. I respect Richard Hall's long >experience and fidelity to the 'scientific study of the UFO >phenomenon. However, in adopting Hynek's and MacDonald's >methodology, he has eschewed the exopolitical approach taken by >his mentor Major Keyhoe who did very seriously consider the >testimony of whistleblowers or those leaking classified >information to him from the national security system. Perhaps >Richard Hall would like to explain to the list how Maj Keyhoe >chose the sources of his information so we may get an idea of >how whistleblower testimonies can be authoritatively cited? I would consider Major Jesse Marcel a whistleblower in the sense that he revealed previously unknown classified information. But I can prove he was the intelligence Officer for the 509th... as opposed to claims made about Corso supposedly inserting alien technology into American industry... more than 13 years AFTER the USAF FTD had pieces of alien wreckage. He also claimed credit (totally unsubstantiated) for the back engineering of work done 2 years before his involvement with Army FTD by Nobelist Jack Kilby om microcircuits. >As far as Brad Sparks is concerned, he has a sharp mind and >access to much historical information that he creatively spins >to support his 'revisionist theories' but his systematic >debunking of whistleblower testimonies and eschewal of the ETH >doesn't make him in my mind a good model for what UFO research >is about. As for his background, I have no information on that >other than he co-founded CAUS. Perhaps he might enlighten me and >others about what it is in his background that might entitle him >to be recognized as laying down the scientific parameters of UFO >research. Who are you to judge? You are clearly not interested in being enlightened about anybody such as myself, Corso, Lazar, etc. >Paul Kimball has a law degree and is an independent filmmaker. >Josh Goldstein is a detective. I don't say this in any way to >demean their investigative abilities or research competence, >it's just that none are scientists with competence in developing >appropriate methodologies for investigating hypotheses such as >the ETH. In general, the above researchers cited as the models >for UFOlogy eschew systematic analysis of the political cover up >of the ETH on the basis of biases that EXCLUSIVELY favor >scientific study of 'hard evidence' in the form of UFO >sightings, and FOIA documents. Read my paper "UFOs: Earth's Cosmic Watergate" I did have a Q clearance for 14 years and wrote classified documents, and have been to 20archives. And your qualifications for evaluating the legitimacy of the whistle blower claims? >The cover up of evidence, the testimony of >whistleblowers/'leakers', the manipulation of documents, >intimidation of witnesses supporting the ETH is not at the >fringe of UFO studies. It was at the center stage of UFO studies >at its formation and under Maj Keyhoe who blended together an >exopolitical perspective together with the more rigorous >scientific analysis of UFO data. >I am reminding this List that a movement that forgets its >origins and seminal thinkers loses part of its own identity and >consequently gets out of touch of the mainstream population. >There is no doubt that UFO research as currently defined by >researchers cited by Paul Kimball is in crisis. They are out of >touch with the many millions who do accept the ETH and know that >a political cover up exists. Exopolitics may be on the fringe of >this list given the biases that are systematically promoted by >the leading protagonists here, but exopolitics is certainly not >at the fringes of UFO research, but belongs at center stage >along with the scientific method advocated by MacDonald, Hynek, >etc. >Finally, either of the two definitions of exopolitics cited >above herald an emerging trend of researchers, experiencers, >whistleblowers who do systematically explore the political >processes associated with the cover up of the ETH. The various >methodologies to be used for exopolitics will naturally be >strongly contested, but this should be done in a way that >recognizes the complexities in exopolitical research, and >without excluding data that fits outside the artificially >constructed paradigm of "Serious Study of the UFO phenomenon". Sorry, Michael, but you just aren't with it. Try doing your homework first. It is 2005. It has been more than 30 years since Jim MacDonald died and almost 20 since Hynek died. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 16:50:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:47:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 14:21:21 -0700 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:03:47 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >Rich, >It's no problem for the ETI to transport a contactee to wherever >they wish and tell him it's Venus, or the Moon's back side, or >whatever. Or, if they view out of a UFO port, they're seeing >through some sort of screen on which the ETI could plant >whatever images they wished. >ous assumptions that the UFO aliens wouldn't be smart >enough to have a strategy of dealing with us, and wouldn't treat >their contactees to some disinformation as part of their >strategy, are only that -- assumptions. It need not be only what >they tell their contactees. Jim: Your scenario stretches credulity, for me, but I admit the possibility of what you say. But why take a group of, shall we say, non-credentialed, individuals when the aliens could do exactly the same thing to a Carl Sagan or Richard Hall or Jerome Clark, or even you? If those persons and you were to relate such experiences, then
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 UFOs & Crop Formations [was: Fatima And The UFO From: Sergey Shpakovsky <sergejsh.nul> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 17:58:14 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:52:38 -0400 Subject: UFOs & Crop Formations [was: Fatima And The UFO >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:43:27 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon >Unlike crop circles or physical evidence cases (such as the >alien blonde hair strands that Bill Chalker and Whitley Strieber >obtained and sent out for testing) where no UFOs are ever >sighted... There is at least 2 cases with UFOs in connection with crop circles: Close Encounter Of The Third Kind In Poland: http://www.rense.com/general52/fsffee.htm and Eyewitness Report Of Crop Circle Forming Wylatowo, Poland - 2000: http://www.bltresearch.com/eyewitness2.html And one more, when "Computer-mouse" shaped objects, were seen by Mike Booth, moving along the wheat heads: http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm?ID=931&category=Environment
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 17:01:57 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:54:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 17:57:30 +1000 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:03:47 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:22:52 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>Jim: >>It's not what the "alien contactors" said but what Fry, Menger, >>and Adamski said... which was, in the case of Adamski, that he >>saw the other side of the Moon, which turned out not to be as he >>described it, as was the case with the lush Venus he described. >>These guys said they observed things which are not as reality >>shows them to be, so the contactees are discounted on their own >>words, not what they tell us their alien mentors relate to them. >I hear what you're saying and this is a reasonable objection >that has turned people off the Adamski case. But we are talking >about alien technology here. Adamski spoke of spacecraft that >were miles long. >Would it be unreasonable to consider then that those spacecraft >would be able to create force fields around themselves which >would produce such livable conditions? >Or at the very least have bases there that created habitable >conditions for beings much like ourselves. >Would it also be unreasonable to think that these force fields >would be of a camouflaging nature? If not, would it be >unreasonable to consider that images of these areas would not be >released to the public by human authorities? Sheryl: Anything and (pertnear, as we used to say in Detroit) everything is possible. But as I noted to Jim Deardorff, the set-up you (both) relate is just a tad too much for me, and I'm open to all kinds of imaginative nonsense. My point was that, for the common person, and kids even, what you propose is too fanciful. People are a cynical lot, unless they're told they've won a lottery in Zambia. Getting people to accept, again, the machinations of the contactee bunch would be a Sisyphian task.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Contactee Taboo - Martin From: Martin Gottschall <mgottschall.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 11:37:28 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 08:59:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Martin Hi List, I've been studying selected contactees for about three decades, and have certain views on their role in Ufology. Naturally I keep studying only those contactees who I think are, or may well be genuine, so all my comments are directed to this group. I sugget that the following "obvious" notions be kept at the forefront of one's mind: 1. The contactee is trying to bridge a huge chasm between our culture and an ET culture. The ET's and we who are studying the contactee's message are trying to do the very same thing. So our language, our minds and our credulity are going to be stretched beyond anything else in our experience. 2. There is a tendency to approach this task using the tools of "science". I think we should be using the tools of "philosophy". Here is just one reason why: Science education (and indeed all education except perhaps philosophy) is focused on what we "know" (or think we know). It says almost nothing about what we do not know (our ignorance), and so gives us an altogether disproportiopnate notion of the relative size of these two domains. This breeds a form of ignorant arrogance. I know. I've been there. 3. For all sorts of reasons, we absorb the notion that we are entitled to "instant or easy answers". In the field of ET/human interaction this may just not be possible. The instant or easy answers may be total gibberish to us. 4. There are numerous ways of testing the value of a contactee, but "consistency" with our notions of reality should not be one of them. A hundred years ago our notions of reality were quite different from what they are today. Is it good philosophy to expect a culture millennia away from us in development to share our current notions? I think not, but they have to use and "twist" them to convey their meaning. 5. I have found that the contactees who have stood my "test of time" the best, rewarded me with jewels of insight just at the places where "inconsistencies" were tempting me to reject them lock stock and barrell. 6. I think that to generalize about contactees, particularly when discounting them is unhelpful. It is not fair to them or us. Be specific in naming the individual and the difficulty or insight he or she presents. Comparing them is, of course, part of the business of studying them and I have found it some significant commonalities amongst them, as have others. One such example is the unusual illumination that they observe when in or near UFO's.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Nick Redfern Ahead Of The Pack From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 00:43:12 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 09:02:08 -0400 Subject: Nick Redfern Ahead Of The Pack http://tinyurl.com/czy3g I'm glad on several fronts that this story about Japan's occupation of China has hit the mainstream news. I have several friends who are tied in heavily with this story and major events in China. Nick's recent book focuses on the horrific cruelties perpetrated on the Chinese during WWII especially the infamous Unit 731. Tonight on the news there was a spotlight on recent protests to the cruelties in conjunction with this story from the Boston Globe. I love Ufology because of events like this. Only the sharpest can hang ten in Ufology because you have to be knowledgeable to the humanities and sciences on a regular basis. Hopefully with the new attention on those days will bring much needed closure once and for all. When all is said and done, China is about 'family'. Empires have risen and fallen over millenia but family still remains.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Will You Lose Your Religion? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 09:21:32 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 09:21:32 -0400 Subject: Will You Lose Your Religion? Source: Raiders News Update http://www.raidersnewsupdate.com/missiontomars2.htm Wednesday, May 18, 2005 If Evidence Of Ancient Civilizations Are Discovered Elsewhere In The Galaxy, Will You Lose Your Religion? By Thomas Horn RNU News Sr. Reporter Survey's show a majority of people believe in and could accept a genuine ET reality without losing faith. RNU.com =96 (Raiders News Update) - A few years ago the movie "Mission to Mars" sent NASA Commander Luke Graham (Don Cheadle) with a crew of four astronauts to the red planet. While exploring strange geological formations on the Martian landscape, the truth about the Face on Mars and the origin of mankind was discovered. At the time, director Brian De Palma admitted, "Mission to Mars is set in 2020 because that=92s the date the experts predict we should have a manned landing on Mars." The film insinuated that, when we do set foot on Mars, the discovery of past alien presence could be made near the Sphinx- like "face" and pyramidal shapes photographed by the Viking Mars probe. Benevolent Creator Astronauts Theory (ET=3DGod) A staple doctrine among many ufologists is that such a discovery would lead to the conclusion that the origin of myth as well as the creation of man was the direct result of intelligent extraterrestrial activity, or benevolent creator astronauts. In the introduction to his bestselling book, Chariots Of The Gods?, Erich von Daniken, who, it might be argued, is one of the fathers of modern ufology, said: "I claim that our forefathers received visits from the universe in the remote past, even though I do not yet know who these extra-terrestrial intelligences were or from which planet they came. I nevertheless proclaim that these "strangers" annihilated part of mankind existing at the time and produced a new, perhaps the first, homo sapiens." As was illustrated in the Hollywood films Contact and Close Encounters Of The Third Kind, Erich von Daniken's hypothesis took America by storm in the 1960's with the proposition that mankind was possibly the offspring of an ancient, even ongoing, extraterrestrial experiment. Ufologists like Daniken assert that the Sphinx, the Pyramids and myths of ancient cultures are potential evidence of an encounter with these other-worldly beings. They claim ancient men would have considered space travelers as gods and would have recorded their arrival, their experiments, and their departure, in hieroglyphs, megaliths, and stone tablets as a "supernatural" encounter between gods and men. Mr. Daniken continues: "While [the] spaceship disappears again into the mists of the universe our friends will talk about the miracle - "The gods were here!"....they will make a record of what happened: uncanny, weird, miraculous. Then their texts will relate - and drawings will show - that gods in golden clothes were there in a flying boat that landed with a tremendous din. They will write about chariots which the gods drove over land and sea, and of terrifying weapons that were like lightning, and they will recount that the gods promised to return. They will hammer and chisel in the rock pictures of what they had seen: Von Daniken also claims that the odd appearance of some of the gods as depicted in various hieroglyphs (human-like creatures with falcon heads; lions with heads of bulls, etc) could be viewed as evidence that "aliens" conducted experiments of cloning and cross-mutating ancient people and animals. Daniken's hypothesis is accepted by some as an alternative to the traditional account of creation. It's uncertain how many people believe the Daniken (and Sitchen) theory, but approximately 70% of Americans believe in the possibility of extraterrestrial life. Some, like the 39 members of the Heaven's Gate cult that committed suicide in Rancho Santa Fe, California and believed they were being summoned by a UFO trailing the Hale-Bopp Comet, take it a step further. They merge ufology and religious cosmology to produce hybrids of conventional religion and/or esoteric mysticism. Of course the remaining 30% minority reject the entire notion as ridiculous. Malevolent Non-Creator-Astronauts Theory (ET=3DSatan) One of the more troubling aspects of the benevolent creator- astronaut view is the related "abduction" scenario associated with certain types of aliens - the taking of a person against their will, often followed by intrusive probes, genetic tinkering, embryo farming and other experimental processes. The abduction by shadowy forces for reasons unknown is viewed by most experiencers and researchers as impersonal and malevolent, or demonic. Associate professor of psychology Elizabeth L. Hillstrom points out in her book, Testing the Spirits, that a growing number of academics also associate UFOnauts - whoever, or whatever, they are - with historical "demons". She writes: "From a Christian perspective, Vallee=92s explanation of UFOs is the most striking because of its parallels with demonic activity. UFO investigators have noticed these similarities. Vallee himself, drawing from extrabiblical literature on demonic activities, establishes a number of parallels between UFOnauts and demons....Pierre Guerin, a UFO researcher and a scientist associated with the French National Council for Scientific Research, is not so cautious: 'The modern UFOnauts and the demons of past days are probably identical.' Veteran researcher John Keel, who wrote UFOs: Operation Trojan Horse and other books on the subject, comes to the same conclusion: 'The UFO manifestations seem to be, by and large, merely minor variations of the age-old demonological phenomenon.'" Yet if a portion of "flying saucer" activity is, in the biblical sense, demonic, what nefarious purpose would be served by the stealthy nature of UFO phenomena? According to some, the answer is diabolical. UFO-ism, they say, is aimed at preparing the earth for an extraterrestrial "return of the creator gods." To put it bluntly, some believe we are being prepared for the collapse of man's dominant religions. This will happen in two ways: First, alien religion - as reported in hundreds of abduction cases - is one of evolutionary humans "on the verge of extraordinary telepathic and technological emergence" in which transhumanism will pave the way for harmonic and spiritual convergence to the community of space brothers. Second, from a technological standpoint, UFO sightings challenge the claim of human superiority and dispute our unique role in the universe. We are made to feel shallow, undeveloped, unenlightened if we consider rejecting the new universal religion. ETs bearing this message often point out that "they" will be reappearing at any moment to assist us in this - our next big evolutionary, spiritual, and technological step forward. Supported By Historical and Religious Texts Claims of extraterrestrials visiting the earth in ancient times and interacting with men is referenced throughout ancient history, including sacred texts. As illustrated in the two views above, ufologists differ in the definition of who these creatures were and what they were doing. For instance, both Daniken and Sitchen refer to the figures in the Bible here (Interlinear Hebrew): "The benei Elohim saw the daughters of Adam, that they were fit extensions. And they took wives for themselves from all those that they chose...The Nephelim were in the earth in those days, and even afterwards when the benei Elohim came in to the daughters of Adam, and they bore to them - they were Powerful Ones which existed from ancient times, the men of name." (Gen. 6:2,4) We are told these benei Elohim were "extraterrestrial" creatures known elsewhere as "watchers," "sons of God," and "rephiam." These visited the earth during antiquity and used the daughters of Adam as "fit extensions" or instruments through which they extended themselves into the physical world. They represented themselves as "gods," and their offspring, the Nephilim ("fallen ones"), made war with the Hebrews. Yet some think these beings could be planning something now, an "alien invasion" or discovery designed to deceive the human race. We are entering the 'end times', the theory goes, where "...fearful sights and great signs...from heaven" (Lk 21:11) will be seen. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 is often added to this theory: "And then shall that Wicked [one] be revealed....whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and _lying_wonders_....And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" [emphasis added]. The message is: Beware if world authorities begin "disclosure" by pointing to ancient mysteries, megaliths, pyramids, the Face on Mars, UFOs or anything else as proof of an ancient visitation of planet earth by creator ETs. Deception, we are told, will follow. We will be instructed to believe that ancient astronauts - not God - created the human race, and a great "falling away" of the earth's major religions will follow. "Don't buy that for a second," we hear the conservative ufologist shout. "Satan comes as an angel of light!"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Contactee Taboo - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:32:44 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:31:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Clark >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 12:36:27 -0400 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:36:48 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 13:34:43 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>How interesting. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, was there not >>once upon a time quite a busy contactee named Bob Renaud? >>Couldn't be the same guy, could it? Naawwww..... Of course not. >>No, I'm sure. >>Really...? >Was there? Hmmmm... now isn't _that_ a coincidence? Personally I >don't know of any "busy" contactee by that name, athough there >was a write-up about some fellow in the March '86 edition of the >less-than-scholarly "Fate", where a Jerome Clark was listed as >an Associate Editor. Could _that_ be the Jerry Clark of this >List? Oh, my, what a small world. I ought to explain that the reference to Renaud's activities appeared in the context of a three-part series I wrote on the history of the contactee movement in America. (A good portion of it was later incorporated into my UFO Encyclopedia.) I did some traveling to talk with a bunch of people, one of whom told me an amusing story about his observation of Renaud in his day as Gray Barker informant. Renaud later responded with a cryptic letter to the magazine. >So, good sir, any thoughts on the contents of the referenced e- >mail? I am disinclined to sinister readings of the contactee movement. I suspect that some contactees were simply having what seemed like a good laugh at the time - their respective youths - but have since moved on, perhaps on occasion to look backward ruefully. But of course I'm only guessing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Contactee Taboo - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:51:06 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:33:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Shell From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> To: ufoupdates.nul Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 16:50:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo <snip> >But why take a group of, shall we say, non-credentialed, >individuals when the aliens could do exactly the same thing to a >Carl Sagan or Richard Hall or Jerome Clark, or even you? <snip> Let me just postulate for a moment that we are as much a mystery to them as they are to us. Perhaps our social structure is so "alien" to them, that they would have no concept of who we consider important, or why. The best policy under that scenario would be random contacts, which looks just like what is
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:00:10 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:34:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Redfern >From: Roy Hale <vinyl.lover10.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 12:53:36 +0100 >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 17:59:52 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch ><snip> >>I have no interest in dividing or conquering you or the UFO >>community - UFOs are not that important to where I would bother >>expending so much energy. I have much better things to do. >Nick, >I think the following links do show how much time and energy you >have expended on the UFO subject. Roy If you look at my _specific_comment, you'll see that what I _specifically_said was that UFOs were not so important to where I would expend so much time and energy on trying to "divide or
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Redfern From: Nick redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:14:06 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:37:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Redfern >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 16:38:18 EDT >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >Yes indeed rather than "doing nothing" on UFOs from 2001-4 as >he repeatedly protested in the same post, here he was giving >a lecture on UFOs to the Hull UFO Society on May 8, 2001. > >"Currently Nick writes for numerous magazines and journals, >including Graham Birdsall's best-selling news-stand publication >UFO Magazine. Yes I was writing for the Birdsall mag after 1999. But I have made it very clear on-List only a few days ago, what I was doing for them - I was doing their book review page. That's not exactly in-depth research. >"He has... his own news feature on UFOs, mysteries, the >paranormal and conspiracy theories that is published in four >British newspapers..... Which regurgitated material from my early research or which was old research I had never published! >"Nick Redfern writes a monthly column on UFOs for the internet >site, Destination Space. As above. >He also co-writes a bi-weekly column >for the internet site, UFO City. As above. >"Come and see Nick at the Hull UFO Societies meeting which >takes place on 8th May 2001 and starts at 7.30pm." >http://tinyurl.com/8kfsb The Hull Group lecture was on my Cosmic Crashes book, published in 1999 and data uncovered from 1990 to 1997. >Also noticed the following Redfern appearances on the Jeff Rense >conspiracy radio show in 2001 and 2003 (I could not check later >years 2002-3 very easily) Which was largely based upon data that we received from people
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 CBC Obit For Canadian Peter Jennings From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 12:52:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 12:52:12 -0400 Subject: CBC Obit For Canadian Peter Jennings Indepth: Peter Jennings
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:50:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:05:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:51:06 -0400 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 16:50:15 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo ><snip> >>But why take a group of, shall we say, non-credentialed, >>individuals when the aliens could do exactly the same thing to a >>Carl Sagan or Richard Hall or Jerome Clark, or even you? ><snip> >Let me just postulate for a moment that we are as much a mystery >to them as they are to us. Perhaps our social structure is so >"alien" to them, that they would have no concept of who we >consider important, or why. The best policy under that scenario >would be random contacts, which looks just like what is >happening. Bob: What you say may be true, but alien space travelers not scoping out their targets seems rather primitive to me. In the olden days, the aliens seemed to know who to grab: Moses, Ezekiel, Mary (the mother of Jesus), Judge Crater, and Jimmy Hoffa.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Philip Corso & NSC - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 05:30:43 -1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:20:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC - Salla >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 18:47:47 -0300 >Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 07:18:45 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC <snip> >Unlike the exopoliticians, those of us who have been talking >about a government coverup are very careful to support our >conclusions with evidence (That word that you seem to have >forgotten about Michael) Stan, I agree that evidence is the basis for making any claims that appeal to a scientist whether in the physical or social sciences. That's what distinguishes disciplines like physics, sociology, etc., from the humanities. However, what process in UFOlogy has been created to assess different categories of evidence? Was the process something broad based that included the discliplinary perspectives of a number of experts, or an ad hoc process that appealed to the biases of the dominant UFO researchers at any one time? For example, contactee reports from those like Howard Menger and George Adamski were often supported by hard evidence in the form of photos, films, and independent witnesses. Yet some sceptics say these sources of evidence were discredited or fabricated. On the other hand some argue that the evidence is as equally compelling today as it was then. In the 1970s we had Billy Meier offer evidence that continues to be debated. Currently, James Gilliland offers much evidence of UFO sightings that is ignored by Peter Davenport and most members on this list. Again, what interdisciplinary process has been created to assess these different sources of evidence, as opposed to leading UFO researchers imposing their own dismissive biases. This takes me to the evidence used by Donald Keyhoe. The evidence accumulated by Keyhoe comprised a mix of whistleblower/leaker statements, radar sightings, pilot statements etc. Some of the evidence Keyhoe used for his claims were unsubstantiated whistleblower/leaker statements. For example, in the Flying Saucer Conspiracy, Keyhoe discussed evidence of very large UFOs circulating the Earth in 1953 gained from reliable inside sources. He describes all this as very classified. Similary in his Aliens from Space he claims that Project Ozma successfully established radio communications with Epsilon Eridani in the early 1960s and that this was covered up as a mistake based on intercepting signals from a classified military satellite. What was Keyhoe's evidence for making such claims? Could it be brought forward to satisfy a sceptic? Basically, Keyhoe was relaying information he had been told by his inside contacts because it was becoming harder to provide evidence due to JANAP 146 passed in 1953. Keyhoe was smart enough to figure out that evidence was increasingly being withheld and that whistleblower/leaker testimony could be used to gain an idea of what was happening. At the same time, he was compiling all the evidence gained through more witness sightings, radar trackings, etc., to build a case for the most reliable evidence. Whistleblower/leaker testimony is 'soft evidence' that can be used in exopolitical analysis. This is something Keyhoe was increasingly doing because he knew that getting evidence was becoming more difficult by the day due to the government conspiracy. So exopolitics is not new at all and something that began with Keyhoe's analysis of the government cover up. It is not a fringe approach that threatens to dilute "serious UFO research" but an important approach that was practiced by Keyhoe in establishing the parameters of serious UFO research. >No evidence has been provided to back up the claims of 2 degrees >by Bob Lazar and 6 by Michael Wolf Kruvant and of course their >other whistleblower claims. Therefore by exopolitical reasoning >they must have what they claimed because the government has >covered it all up. Totally inconsistent with this would seem to >be your false claim that I have no record of publication in >scientific journals. Surely you should have 'reasoned" that I >must since you couldn't find any evidence. I will list some >below. There is debate over what qualifies as acceptable evidence for the above whistleblowers. Lazar's work at Los Alamos, providing a W-2 slip of earnings, independent witnesses sightings of a UFO outside area 51, etc., all constitute evidence for his claims. People disagree over how compelling this evidence is. You for example believe that Lazar is bunk, while George Knapp believes Lazar is credible. It's similar with Wolf and some of his leading supporters such as Paola Harris, Michael Hesseman, Richard Boylan who cite various forms of evidence supporting Lazar. The key methodological question is not whether there is evidence, but what qualifies as evidence, and what role does the government play in distorting or removing the evidence. <snip> >>Since Keyhoe's demise the great tragedy for UFO research was >>that researchers from the 'physical sciences such as Dr Allen >>Hynek, Dr James MacDonald and Stanton Friedman became the >>'exclusive' standard bearers of UFOlogy with their rigorous >>'scientific' pursuit of the UFO phenomenon. Hynek, MacDonald and >>Friedman and other astronomers, physicists, meteorologists, >>etc., eschewed 'conspiracy theories' of a national security >>cover up and believed that more concerted scientific research >>would yield the truth. Keyhoe's exopolitical perspective quickly >>moved from the center stage of UFO research and his extensive >>citation and use of whistleblower testimonies was forgotten. >>Now, the exopolitical perspective is considered part of the >>fringe of serious UFO research. >Michael, I start just about all my lectures with 4 major >conclusions. The first is that the evidence is overwhelming that >eartrh is being visited by alien spacecraft i.e. _some_ UFOs are >alien spacecraft. 2.The subject of "flying saucers represents a >kind of Cosmic Watergate meaning some few people in most >goovernment have known since at least July 1947 that _some_ UFOs >are alien spacecraft. I show the lies of Sec. of the Air Force >Donald Quarles. I note General Bolender,s statements about >sightings which could effect national security are _not_ part of >the Blue Book System. I quote Judge Gesell. I show the blacked >out and whited out NSA and CIA UFO documents.Nobody has been >more vocal than I have about the facts about the coverup. >>UFO studies as it is presently concentrated is a shadow of what >>it once was under Keyhoe's leadership and suffers from an acute >>shortage of resources and organization. I have noted the demise >>of organizations such as NICAP, CUFOS and FUFOR, and the current >>difficulties of MUFON and can only conclude that this is brought >>about by UFO researchers being out of touch with the many >>millions or 'mainstream public' who accept the ETH and/or that a >>national security cover up at the highest level is underway. The >>2002 Roper conclusively demonstrates that as much as 70% of >>Americans believe the government is covering up the truth about >>the ETH. >I will take some credit for that Michael, with my multitude of >media appearances and in my books Crash At Corona and TOP >SECRET/MAJIC, and my paper, The Cosmic Watergate. All are >available. Sorry you missed them. The Roper poll refers to a widespread societal phenomenon based on a survey of a randomly chosen group of individuals. Saying the result is due to any one researcher is a stretch and a touch of hubris. It is much more likely due to a very real process of UFO sightings and human extraterrestrial interactions that has accumulated over the years. I doubt many of the respondents have read any of your works. Your books remain on my 'to read' list. I'll get to them eventually. >>Paul Kimball cites researchers such as Brad Sparks, Kevin >>Randall, Stanton Friedman, Josh Goldstein, Richard Hall and >>himself as exemplary models for systematically defining the >>parameters of the "Serious Study of the UFO phenomenon" in terms >>of a 'scientific method' for studying UFO sightings, the >>abduction phenomenon, FOIA documents, etc. It's worth pointing >>out that aside from Stanton Friedman, none of these gentlemen >>are scientists that enable them to authoritatively establish the >>scientific method as championed as the exemplary model for UFO >>research. In Stanton's case while he worked as nuclear >>physicist, he doesn't have a PhD nor does he have a record of >>peer reviewed publications in scientific journals. >One fact right: I don't have a PhD... and have never claimed I >have and have, whenever possible, correctd people like Larry >King, when thay have said I do. >Try these on for size. All you had to do was ask.: >Co author Chapter "Experimental Shielding" in textbook "Reactor >Shielding for Nuclear Engineers" ed. by Norman Schaeffer TID >25951 (Book is 788 p.) >"Indirect Measurement of Nuclear Heating in Poson Control Vanes" >Transactions of American Nuclear Societ: 12:1 p. 25 >"Experimental Evaluation of Boron Carbide Modified Beryllium >Oxide Shield Matrices" TANS 10:1 p. 393 >"Use of the Transport Code DTK, for Shielding Design and >Analysis TANS 7:2 p. 354 >"Measurments of Secondary Gamma Rays from Tungsten, Stainless >Steel, and Borated Steel". TANS 4:2 p. 266 >"Preliminary Shield Design for Nuclear Electric Space Power >Plants" withDr. David Cocharan, invited paper AIEE Meetings >Denver 62-1236 40p. >"Realistic Evaluation of Shadow Shields for Space Nuclear >Systems" International Symposium on Aerospace Nuclear >Proopulsion" published in IRE Trans. on Nuclear Science >NS91,378-84 >There were numerous classified technical documents. Two worth >noting because they were eventually declassified are these >"External Reports (which needed several levels of approval for >external distribution) "Radiation Shielding Tests Performed in >GE Outside Test Tank in the period March-June 1958" APEX 581, >109p. >"An Analysis of Late 1957 and Early 1958 Lid-Tank Experiments >Pertaining to XMA-1 Shield Design" (XMA 1 was a nuclear Aircraft >Design) APEX 524 55p. Thank you for clarifying this and I apologize for not acknowledging your peer reviewed publications. May I suggest you add these professional publications or a CV to your online biography so these are not overlooked in future by other researchers: http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfbio.html <snip> >>In each case the above are very competent UFO researchers who >>have strong biases towards a scientific method championed by >>Hynek, MacDonald and Friedman. I respect Richard Hall's long >>experience and fidelity to the 'scientific study of the UFO >>phenomenon. However, in adopting Hynek's and MacDonald's >>methodology, he has eschewed the exopolitical approach taken by >>his mentor Major Keyhoe who did very seriously consider the >>testimony of whistleblowers or those leaking classified >>information to him from the national security system. Perhaps >>Richard Hall would like to explain to the list how Maj Keyhoe >>chose the sources of his information so we may get an idea of >>how whistleblower testimonies can be authoritatively cited? >I would consider Major Jesse Marcel a whistleblower in the sense >that he revealed previously unknown classified information. But >I can prove he was the intelligence Officer for the 509th... as >opposed to claims made about Corso supposedly inserting alien >technology into American industry... more than 13 years AFTER the >USAF FTD had pieces of alien wreckage. He also claimed credit >(totally unsubstantiated) for the back engineering of work done >2 years before his involvement with Army FTD by Nobelist Jack >Kilby om microcircuits. There is evidence supporting Corso's claims of having headed the Foreign Technology Desk at Army Research and Development. I think it clear that his position provided him the opportunity to participate in such a classified Army project as inserting alien technology into private industry. As to his success and role in such a program, that's open to debate. There is every reason to believe Corso that such a classified project existed since he put his reputation as a highly decorated military officer on the line in coming forward to reveal his role before his death. Researchers such as Brad Sparks and it appears yourself impugn Corso's integrity as a whistleblower by pointing to 'minor' inconsistencies in his testimony that can be explained in many ways other rather than the tendentious claim that Corso was lying. >>As far as Brad Sparks is concerned, he has a sharp mind and >>access to much historical information that he creatively spins >>to support his 'revisionist theories' but his systematic >>debunking of whistleblower testimonies and eschewal of the ETH >>doesn't make him in my mind a good model for what UFO research >>is about. As for his background, I have no information on that >>other than he co-founded CAUS. Perhaps he might enlighten me and >>others about what it is in his background that might entitle him >>to be recognized as laying down the scientific parameters of UFO >>research. >Who are you to judge? You are clearly not interested in being >enlightened about anybody such as myself, Corso, Lazar, etc. I think it fair to ask about the background of those attacking the integrity of whistleblowers who have staked their reputations in coming forward. Brad Sparks has publicly taken the position that "Corso is a liar" and that Clifford Stone was "ripping off" the FOIA work of others such as Robert Todd and is also "a liar". If a researcher attackes the integrity of whistleblowers, I think it only fair to ask more questions about the background of the researcher in question. In my own case, my CV is publically available and there are no secrets about my professional background: http://www.exopolitics.org/Vitae.htm. I simply asked the question about Brad Sparks background and whether there is any information he can share about it to the rest of the forum other than him being a co-founder of CAUS. >>Paul Kimball has a law degree and is an independent filmmaker. >>Josh Goldstein is a detective. I don't say this in any way to >>demean their investigative abilities or research competence, >>it's just that none are scientists with competence in developing >>appropriate methodologies for investigating hypotheses such as >>the ETH. In general, the above researchers cited as the models >>for UFOlogy eschew systematic analysis of the political cover up >>of the ETH on the basis of biases that EXCLUSIVELY favor >>scientific study of 'hard evidence' in the form of UFO >>sightings, and FOIA documents. >Read my paper "UFOs: Earth's Cosmic Watergate" I did have a Q >clearance for 14 years and wrote classified documents, and have >been to 20archives. And your qualifications for evaluating the >legitimacy of the whistle blower claims? I'm qualified as a political scientist who has gone through a rigorous PhD program to develop appropriate methodological criteria for investigating a variety of hypotheses in political science. In the 3-4 year program I completed at the University of Queensland, I and other PhD candidates had to regularly present papers before our peers, advisors and faculty where our methodologies were scrutinized and our substantive reasoning was tested on a broad range of topics in political science/government studies. I successfully completed the program as atested by my PhD was now is available online at: http://www.exopolitics.org/Salla-PhD.pdf . Similarly, you can check my CV to see that I have gone on to achieve a number of professional successes in Political Science/Government studies. I am more professionally qualified than you or others on Paul Kimball's 'A-Team for serious UFO research' to investigate the whistleblower testimonies of those claiming a "Cosmic Watergate" over the UFO phenomenon and the ETH. >>The cover up of evidence, the testimony of >>whistleblowers/'leakers', the manipulation of documents, >>intimidation of witnesses supporting the ETH is not at the >>fringe of UFO studies. It was at the center stage of UFO studies >>at its formation and under Maj Keyhoe who blended together an >>exopolitical perspective together with the more rigorous >>scientific analysis of UFO data. <snip>. > >>Finally, either of the two definitions of exopolitics cited >>above herald an emerging trend of researchers, experiencers, >>whistleblowers who do systematically explore the political >>processes associated with the cover up of the ETH. The various >>methodologies to be used for exopolitics will naturally be >>strongly contested, but this should be done in a way that >>recognizes the complexities in exopolitical research, and >>without excluding data that fits outside the artificially >>constructed paradigm of "Serious Study of the UFO phenomenon". >Sorry, Michael, but you just aren't with it. Try doing your >homework first. It is 2005. It has been more than 30 years since >Jim MacDonald died and almost 20 since Hynek died. Hynek and MacDonald are still with us in terms of the legacy they established for UFO research. Obviously, you are with us as well in terms of the criteria you establish for serious UFO research which is similar in many respects to Hynek and MacDonald. >Stan Friedman >Still kicking. Check out my just published 2nd Edition of TOP >SECRET/MAJIC only $17. including S and H. from me at POB 958, >Houlton, ME 04730-0958. >Cosmic Watergate indeed. Stan, I applaud you on your work in establishing the USAF lies over the Roswell case, and the accuracy of several of the Majestic Documents such as the EBD. You also have supported the work of researchers such as Frank Feschino and Clifford Stone. These are all to your credit and are part of the legacy you have established. On the other hand you have publically opposed the credibility of whistleblowers such as Corso, Lazar and whistleblowers who have come forward as part of Steven Greer's Disclosure Project on the basis that documentary evidence is required to support their claims before they can be taken seriously. Furthermore, you take the standard position for veteran UFO researchers that 'contactee cases' are not worth serious UFO study. You are clearly part of a cadre of UFO researchers marking out and enforcing the methodological boundaries of 'serious UFO research' in terms of the need for documents and other forms of 'hard evidence'. Exopolitics does accept 'soft evidence' in the form of whistleblower testimonies, and this is not a new development since Keyhoe did something very similar with his own approach to the cover up of the ETH. Often whistleblower/leaker testimony doesn't have much hard evidence supporting it so significant controversy arises over whistleblower credibility and integrity is enough for it to be considered in "serious UFO study". Since exopolitics is depicted by Paul Kimball and others as a "fringe UFO study" that needs to be kept at arms length from serious UFO study, then clearly there will be friction as I and others make the case that the methodologically basis of serious UFO research is badly skewed by the biases of leading UFO researchers. The Cosmic Watergate requires developing an appropriate methodological approach and I fully agree with the criteria established by Greer in his Disclosure Project which is very similar to the approach taken by Donald Keyhoe. Since you and others on Kimball's A-Team have publically stated your opposition to Greer and his methodology, then we are clearly on opposing camps as to what constitutes 'serious UFO research'.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Contactee Taboo - Renaud From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> Date: mon, 8 aug 2005 11:36:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:23:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Renaud >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:32:44 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 12:36:27 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:36:48 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 13:34:43 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>How interesting. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, was there not >>>once upon a time quite a busy contactee named Bob Renaud? >>>Couldn't be the same guy, could it? Naawwww..... Of course not. >>>No, I'm sure. >>>Really...? >>Was there? Hmmmm... now isn't _that_ a coincidence? Personally I >>don't know of any "busy" contactee by that name, athough there >>was a write-up about some fellow in the March '86 edition of the >>less-than-scholarly "Fate", where a Jerome Clark was listed as >>an Associate Editor. Could _that_ be the Jerry Clark of this >>List? Oh, my, what a small world. >I ought to explain that the reference to Renaud's activities >appeared in the context of a three-part series I wrote on the >history of the contactee movement in America. News to me, good sir. I was unaware that you devoted so much space to li'l ol' me. I didn't keep up with the lore, nor invest money on expensive books. IAC, by no mean was I "busy", nor have I ever been. I sent some stuff to Gabe Green, but beyond that, I was uninvolved with the contactee "scene". Too much hype and show-biz. >(A good portion of >it was later incorporated into my UFO Encyclopedia.) I did some >traveling to talk with a bunch of people, one of whom told me an >amusing story about his observation of Renaud in his day as Gray >Barker informant. Renaud later responded with a cryptic letter >to the magazine. Jim Moseley and I had a sort of understanding. He didn't take me seriously, and I reciprocated. It was a hoot. >>So, good sir, any thoughts on the contents of the referenced e- >>mail? >I am disinclined to sinister readings of the contactee movement. I'd hardly label it sinister, but I do suggest that it wasn't as benign as it might seem. Can it be doubted that the carnival atmosphere of the 50s severely impacted the credibility of "serious" UFOlogy? It never recovered. One would be hard-pressed to call what passes for UFOlogy today anything but a far-fringe activity better known for Meier, numerous exclusive Ashtar channels, pickled aliens in Area 51, bad sci-fi flicks, and endless conspiracy theories than for MUFON, CUFOS et al. Were I someone in a high position that was interested in promoting ongoing public cynicism about UFOs, I'd have a hard time finding a more effective method than what is already in place. >I suspect that some contactees were simply having what seemed >like a good laugh at the time - their respective youths - but >have since moved on, perhaps on occasion to look backward >ruefully. But of course I'm only guessing. I for one enjoyed it, but it would be unrewarding and unproductive to do what causes one displeasure or mystery, n'est-ce pas? As for retrospective rueing, that hasn't happened yet. Thanks for your response. I'll have to look up the UFO
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Contactee Taboo - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos.nul> Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 11:58:24 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:28:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Balaskas >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:51:06 -0400 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 16:50:15 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo ><snip> >>But why take a group of, shall we say, non-credentialed, >>individuals when the aliens could do exactly the same thing to a >>Carl Sagan or Richard Hall or Jerome Clark, or even you? ><snip> >Let me just postulate for a moment that we are as much a mystery >to them as they are to us. Perhaps our social structure is so >"alien" to them, that they would have no concept of who we >consider important, or why. The best policy under that scenario >would be random contacts, which looks just like what is >happening. Greetings Bob! In Toronto, where I live, I have many alien friends, neighbours, co-workers and even relatives through marriage! Although these aliens are not from other planets, they are never-the-less from very different worlds. These aliens are fully intergrated in our multicultural society in Canada and we have adopted many of their customs, foods, music, etc. as our own, and vice versa. For this reason I cannot fathom how the ETs contactees claim to have met that look very much like us (mostly European for some reason) and have a better command of English than some of those born here would consider our social structure here to be "so alien". Unless some of these ETs are really UTs who have been around since the beginning or have come to our world some time in the distant past and now consider Earth as much as their home as we do, I suggest we entertain some other more probable explanations. Below is a recent off-List exchange of e-mails by just two of our fellow researchers which coincidentally dealt directly with the subject of contactees and addressed some of these more probable explanations, especially in regards to George Adamski. Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:27:59 -0700 From: "nick.redfern" <nick.redfern.nul> Subject: Re: Wilbert Smith And Alien Bodies (fwd) <snip> Hi Palmiro, Yes there was talk of Adamski being a CIA plant. More interesting is the theory (seldom discussed outside of tightly- knit Adamski research circles) that he was a Russian plant. Have you seen the FBI surveillance file on Adamski? Adamski made it very clear (and is cited in the FBI records) that his alien contacts had a Communist-style Government and that Russia was going to "dominate the world." Pro-Adamski researchers state that the FBI was watching Adamski because of his alien contacts. However, a careful examination of the FBI files makes it very clear that - in the era of McCarthyism, Reds-under-the-beds and the Cold War - Adamski was being watched specifically because of his Russian/communism statements. All the sources in my book said that the Russians were trying to learn the truth about whatever it was that had happened at Roswell. If so, what better than to have someone like Adamski try and infiltrate the UFO research community to learn more. We certainly don't know all of the background, but it is not impossible that as the BSRA was associated with Scully (who got much of his data from Silas Newton - who admitted to spreading faked crashed saucer data for US Intelligence), that some of the deliberately faked crashed saucers stories were fed to Adamski - if there was a suspicion that Adamski was working with the Russians and there was concern he would report back to his handlers. I would stress this is a theory and nothing else, but Adamski's pro-Russia, pro-Communist statements are fact. Best, Nick R. ----- From: Jane-Pal To: nick.redfern ; Grant Cameron ; Nick Balaskas Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 10:29 AM Subject: Re: Wilbert Smith And Alien Bodies (fwd) Hello Everyone Another twist. The Borderland Sciences Research Associates (BSRA) claimed in a letter (dated January 14 1954)to Wilbert Smith, that it was they who supplied Frank Scully with much of the information concerning the magnetic principles of the saucer's operation. The letter says Scully mistakenly attributed this information to Leo GeBauer. BSRA goes on to say they had cooperative contact with Kenneth Arnold and George Adamski. Was there not some talk that Adamski was a CIA plant? Also, was there not some indication that BSRA was shady? Cheers Palmiro Campagna The UFO Files: The Canadian Connection Exposed ----- As for why ET aliens seemingly contact only "non-credentialed" individuals, this is not necessarily truth. It could be that since non-credentialed people would be more likely to be the ones to talk, they can better be used in promoting the secret ET or our own hidden agendas. There are many unconfirmed accounts that some political, military, religious world leaders, scientists (including Wilbert B. Smith) and even journalists (such as Walter Cronkite?) have had direct contact or first hand experience with ETs/UTs. Maybe you have too... In his letter to the Hebrews, Paul (who had his fair share of ET/abduction/contactee experiences) wrote: "Forget not to show love (or hospitality) to strangers for thereby some have
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Canadian Connection To Roswell UFO Crash? - From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:14:41 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:30:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Canadian Connection To Roswell UFO Crash? - >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 13:55:59 -0400 >Subject: Re: Canadian Connection To Roswell UFO Crash? >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 17:09:41 +0200 >>Subject: Re: Canadian Connection To Roswell UFO Crash? >>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 13:08:56 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>>Subject: Roswell UFO Crash - A Canadian Connection? >>>There a history about man-made flying saucers that is still >>>largely unknown and shrouded in mystery that may not only >>>explain the Roswell UFO crash but all UFO sightings - and there >>>may even be a Canadian connection too! ;o) >>Sorry to tell you - I don't believe one word of this. >>Gildas Bourdais >No need to be sorry for being skeptical. Without further facts >to back up claims of man-made flying saucers since the alleged >UFO crash at Roswell in 1947, I wouldn't expect anyone to beieve >otherwise. <snip> >If you are interested, I would be happy to send you a copy of >this incredible "secret" Project Y report of a flying saucer >designed in 1952 to fly at least three times higher than present >aircraft and at speeds much faster than the Concorde. Although >not saucer shaped, Avro also designed and proposed to built a >triangular shaped "Space Threshold Vehicle" before the company >was shut down permanently and many of the top Canadian aerospace >engineers left for the U.S. to help the Americans with their goal >of sending humans to another world - the Moon - and bringing them >back safely (and building America's nuclear flying saucer too?). Hi, Nick and All, Thank you for your offer, but I already have some documentation on that Project Y, alias "Silver Bug". It has been mentioned many times in the litterature on "secret human made flying saucers", such as the books "UFO Revelation" by Tim Matthews, "The Hunt for Zero Point" by Nick Cook, in articles by Bill Rose (Focus, October 1998), etc. I have read all this, but they talk of projects on paper! There have been many projects on paper, especially German projects during WW2. In the same vein, I have an article in the French magazine "Science et Vie" of Sept. 1955 presenting "the first plans of the Atomic Airplane", with a spectacular drawing on the cover. It as just a dream. The rumors of "Nazi flying Saucers", allegedly test-flown in Germany toward the end of the war, have been well studied in France by Joseph Altairac, who wrote a 105 pages article, published in 1997 ("La l=E9gende du V7", in Scientifictions), with a number of documents reproduced. To make the story short, it first appeared in the German paper Der Spiegel of March 30, 1950, as a revelation by German engineer Rufolf Schriever. It was widely reproduced. He said he had worked on the plans of a supersonic disk supposed to reach 4,200 km/h, and that he was ready to present his project in April 1945, but the Russians arrived and he had to pack and leave. Later, in 1948, his plans were stolen, so that he had nothing left. Now, in June 1952, another German publication, Die 7 Tage, revealed that a prototype had been built and tested in April 1945, but could not leave the ground, and was destroyed before the arrival of allied armies. It was then called the V7. Again, the new version was widely reproduced. But It was just the beginning of many tales of secret German flying saucers. Curiously, again in June 1952, appeared another story, this time in the French popular newspaper France Soir. It revealed that another German engineer, Richard Miethe, had built a different model of flying saucer, which had been tested above the Baltic Sea. These stories, and others, have been reproduced and enriched, for intance in a German book by Rudolph Lusar in 1957, but the fact which remains is that no serious proof has ever been given of these stories. It took almost twenty years before a German aeronautical review, Luftfahrt International, decided in 1975 to sink these stories, in an article by Hans Justus Meier. According to Joseph Altairac, his three main arguments, which seem quite sensible to me, were first, the contradictions in the stories; secondly, the technical inconsistencies (for instance the enormous centrifugal forces to which no material could resist at the time); lastly and mainly, the impossibility to find any document in the archives. Indeed, it is very curious that nothing was learned until the beginning of the fifties, in spite of the abundant litterature on German secret weapons in the years following the war. It may not be irrelevant to observe that the policy of active debunking of UFOs was put in effect at about the same time. The question of observations of weird craft in recent years must not be mixed with the legends of man-made flying saucers. It is probable that some secret planes have been confused with UFOs. However, the many observations of huge triangles at low speed and low altitude over populated areas, departing at high speed, as seen by credible witnesses, and in many countries (the United States, Belgium, England and others), are most probably not man made craft, just because you don't do that with highly secret projects! Unless there is another, very weird agenda at work, of the conspirational kind, like secret alien-human projects... We have all heard of such stories, but what solid proofs do we have, so far? Anyway, we can safely bet that there was no such
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Nick Redfern Ahead Of The Pack - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:28:25 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:33:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Redfern Ahead Of The Pack - Bourdais >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 00:43:12 EDT >Subject: Nick Redfern Ahead Of The Pack >http://tinyurl.com/czy3g >I'm glad on several fronts that this story about Japan's >occupation of China has hit the mainstream news. >I have several friends who are tied in heavily with this story >and major events in China. >Nick's recent book focuses on the horrific cruelties >perpetrated on the Chinese during WWII especially the infamous >Unit 731. Which have nothing to do with Roswell, and certainly don't put him "ahead of the pack". See my post of July 16, "More questions
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Charles Hall And Tall Whites At Nellis AFB From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:12:50 -1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:12:28 -0400 Subject: Charles Hall And Tall Whites At Nellis AFB Source: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-36.htm Exopolitical Comment # 36 - Further Investigations of Charles Hall and Tall Whites at Nellis Air Force Base: The David Coote Interviews This is to announce the results of a continuing investigation of Charles Hall's testimony described in his three volume memoirs, Millennial Hospitality where he recounts his service on Nellis Air Force base where he met and interacted with Tall White extraterrestrials who had reached agreements with the US Air Force to establish a secret base at Indian Springs, Nevada. The field investigator is David Coote, an airline pilot who, along with Paola Harris, was responsible for initially making the Charles Hall case known to the wider UFO community. David has investigated the testimony of Charles Hall by tracking down and interviewing three individuals described in the book series. The purpose of the investigation was to find corroborating evidence that Charles Hall did serve as a weatherman at Indian Springs; that incidents described in Millennial Hospitality are accurate; whether there were sightings of UFOs/extraterrestrials at the Indian Springs ranges; and any personal recollections about Charles Hall that would help determine his credibility. David is collaborating with the author and other researchers in ascertaining the veracity of Charles Hall's testimony by interviewing independent witnesses, finding documentary evidence; and distributing the results of these investigations to the wider UFO/Exopolitics research community. For a range of articles and links related to Charles Hall and the 'Tall Whites' please visit: http://www.exopolitics.org/charles-hall.htm . David was able track down and interview three of the military personnel described in the Millennial Hospitality series. What follows are the key points from the interview(s) David conducted with each of the three personnel, along with David's and my own final reflections on the significance of this further evidence supporting the Charles Hall case. The names used in the Millennial Hospitality books are pseudonyms and I will use the three witness designations used by David in his interview in order to maintain confidentiality of the three former military colleagues of Charles Hall. I thank David Coote and Charles Hall for permission to share this information with the general public. I also thank Paola Harris for facilitating communications between Charles Hall, David and different researchers. I also thank Dr Robert M. Wood for his helpful comments that assisted me revising an earlier draft of this article Finally, a significant piece of documentary evidence that has emerged is a newspaper clipping concerning the building of a very large accommodation facility at Indian Springs in 1951 was kindly supplied by Dr Wood. The January 5, 1951 story from the Las Vegas Review Journal describes 300 million dollars spent in 1951 to fund the facility and that it was not connected with the atomic program. The funding of this very large facility may be what was described in the Millennial Hospitality book series as the 'large hangar base' built to accommodate the tall whites and their ships by the USAF in the 1950s. The newspaper clipping is available online at: www.exopolitics.org/indiansprings- project.htm David Coote Interviews Three Military Witnesses to Events on Indian Springs In an email to the author on July 24, 2005, David described his attempts "to find corroborating testimony from any witnesses to Charles Hall's story." David explains that his attempts "met with some success after he was able to track down three individuals who were stationed with Charles at Indian Springs Auxiliary Field during the same period in the sixties." David further states that "in keeping with Charles' original desire to keep these individuals' identities protected (as he did in his books) we shall refer to them as witness 'A' from Michigan, witness 'B' from Pennsylvania, and witness 'C' from Ohio." David says that the testimony of the three witnesses, though not conclusive "is yet significant in cementing Hall's story in several ways." David states: "all three witnesses were also utilized as weather observers as Charles had been. They remembered Charles, and confirmed his presence and job as Charles had described. They also recalled everyday, mundane events, and described the place just as Charlie had written in his books. They also remembered some of the other names that Charlie had mentioned." Another significant point is that none of the witnesses had read any Charles Hall's books. Witness B, however, had heard an interview of Charles Hall on Coast to Coast radio and passed on this information to witness C. Witness 'A' was a weather station observer for the USAF (Det. 31/ 25th Wx Sqdn - USAF MAC unit) and was also an ex-civilian policeman. David asked questions about how well Witness A knew Charles Hall. Witness A answered: "I knew him very well." "Really nice guy - real sweet - hard not to like Charlie." "He was one of those really smart guys...chemistry major or something." "I taught him how to play chess and he knocked me off the Base tournament one time...very intelligent." David then asked about significant events mentioned in Hall's books especially those concerning anomalous occurrences and an incident involving Witness A: "They [other base personnel] used to come up with this story of 'Range Four Harry'...he was some kind of wild, radioactive horse..." also ..."Charlie remembered that? [regarding an incident where witness 'A' broke a tie-rod in a truck out on the ranges] ...well I'll be damned...yeah I did that." Witness 'B' is presently 62 years old with a degree in electronics. David again asked about the witness's recollection of Charles Hall and incidents described in Millennial Hospitality. Witness B said: "Charlie was a particularly bright character...more studious...more reserved... Didn't talk much about it...we heard rumors constantly [about what went on out on the ranges]...'Range Four Harry' etc .. Charlie was so serious about it. But he didn't really want to talk about it...I felt he didn't know who he could trust. ...there were rumors about people getting transferred...if you say too much about this stuff then you might find yourself where you didn't want to be. ...Charlie spent more time out there [on the ranges] than the rest of us. ...I believe in him...that he was dealing with something out there. ... I never felt I was alone when I was out there. ... It was a very secure area. " David explains how at one stage he [witness 'B'] had been told from another individual that the Air Police never responded to calls out on the ranges because "...they were afraid." David also noted that witness 'B' stated that witness 'C' =85 "is a very sincere person." Witness 'C' ("Pushing sixty" - combat veteran, Retired). David again asked how well he knew knew Charles Hall and about any significant events on the ranges and got the following responses: "Yes I knew Charlie...I relieved Charlie when he left Indian Springs...It was an eerie place...Only knew Charlie a week...he wanted to talk to me about Einstein's theory of relativity. David notes that when witness 'C' first got to serve on Indian Springs he was told "to be observant of UFO's". Witness C further explained: "...I did feel many times my life was in danger. I'd call the aerodrome officer at Nellis AFB whenever I had suspicious occurrences and they would never confirm any aircraft in the area. ...a lot of the time I knew I wasn't alone out there; whatever these forces were they were hostile to me because I had a hostile intent towards them." David explained that Witness C admitted he had "always been a 'fight first' type of personality". David explained how witness C "felt threatened by certain events that had taken place although he never saw the 'culprits'. There were occasions when "they" would shut the generators off; once, both at the same time...also switched the light switch off in the truck when he had left it running outside in the dark." David also pointed out that "Witness 'C' stated he had seen unexplained lights out there, both on the ground and in the air. David then explained more about what led to Witness C abandoning his duties at the weather station: "About the time he'd "finally had enough" an incident occurred, when he sensed company and where an "orderly" pile of large 'target posts' (approx 10" by 10" by 15 foot) had been strewn about just outside his range shack one night. He just jumped in his truck and drove back to Base. He told his First Sergeant that he didn't want to go out there again, that: "I've performed my duties to the best of my ability, and I don't care if you put me in the brig." "I recommended that they pull the weather station from the ranges and put it at the radar site on Nellis for security and other reasons...and that's what they did." Witness C also explained to David: "It was Charlie who...had mentioned to me certain areas not to go...where his [Charlie's] truck had been 'shut-down'...and other areas where he had had daylight sightings of 'dirigibles.' ...these things were never talked about officially. We would only mention occurrences 'one on one.' ...The only thing that was ever officially said was that the First Sergeant told me that under no conditions was I to ever put a UFO report on the comments or remarks section of the [weather observer report ] ...an official Air Force document...I'm guessing that apparently there had been a problem in the past." Conclusions The results of the interviews with corroborating witnesses offer evidentiary support for Charles Hall and several of the incidents described in his books. First, they confirm that Charles did serve as a weatherman and that he did perform his duties in an isolated and frightening environment. Witness B confirmed that Charlie often served alone out on the weather ranges; and even the Air Police were too frightened to go out on the ranges. This is conistent with Hall's description of the high level of anxiety experienced by servicemen over the unexplainable events on the weather ranges. Second, Witness C's testimony that he was strictly instructed not to record UFO sightings on his daily logs offers support for Charles Hall contention that the Tall Whites frequently flew their ships in the area of Indian Springs. Witness C recalled that Hall had told him about 'dirigibles' he had seen in the sky which confirms that Hall had told others about his UFO sightings during his service at Nellis Air Force base. Hall describes in his books numerous instances where he could monitor the large interstellar ships entering and leaving their secret base through the theodolite he used for tracking weather balloons. Third, witness C confirms that as a result of the 'high strangeness' at the weather station, he had fully abandoned doing any further service out on station despite possible punishment by his military superiors. This offers support for Charles Hall testimony that many preceding and subsequent servicemen had to abandon their duties due to intimidation from and fear of the Tall Whites. This combined by Witness B's recollection of the fear of the Air Police to travel out to the weather station suggests that the Air Force did not brief the servicemen about any extraterrestrials thereby helping explain the 'high strangeness' and fear by many of the servicemen who served at Indian Springs. Fourth, witnesses A and B confirmed that the existence of urban legends such as "Range Four Harry" as a radioactive horse which Hall recounts as an inaccurate description of the Tall Whites when in their protective suits. According to David, "Hall's explanation was that 'Harry' was a Tall White guard who spent a lot of time on Range 4, whereas the 'Radioactive horse' was how a group of Tall Whites would appear at night as they transited the ranges as a close-knit group in their luminous, protective suits." None of the three witnesses could confirm having directly seen either an extraterrestrial or a UFO while serving with Charles Hall at Nellis AFB. This may be result of the psychological impact of unbriefed servicemen encountering UFOs/ETs in an isolated environment. Certainly the strong reaction from Witness C in terms of abandoning his duties regardless of punishment suggests such a psychological impact was evident. If this is what occured, then further interviews and perhaps hypnotic regression may elicit further recollections that may confirm the existence of ETs/UFOs that Charles claimed to witness when based at Nellis Air Force Base. Unfortunately, the witnesses have indicated a desire to maintain anonymity, and do not appear overly eager to participant in further interviews thereby precluding for the moment this kind of follow up. The newspaper clipping supplied by Dr Wood offers documentary evidence that a classified project was being conducted at Indian Springs that may have been intended for the Tall White extraterrestrials discussed in the Millennial Hospitality series. The construction of a large hangar facility for interstellar Tall White ships and accomodation for the Tall Whites in a secure mountain location presumably would have required a large outlay of capital. The 300 million dollars spent in 1951 according to the American Institute for Economic Research converts in 2005 terms as 2.2 billion dollars (see http://www.aier.org/colcalc.html ). Given the lack of surface constructions at Indian Springs that would explain where these 'accomodation' facilities were constructed, it's likely that these were underground and/or constructed inside the mountains located at Indian Springs. The conclusion of these further investigations by David Coote is that Charles Hall testimony has been corroborated in the following ways: Charles Hall served in the isolated environment of the Indian Springs bombing ranges; there was a degree of 'high strangeness' with the things happening at Indian Springs; the legend of 'Range Four Harry' was known to other servicemen; and that UFO's were known to senior miltiary personnel who instructed subordinates not to record UFO's in official Air Force logs. While there has not been direct confirmation of Charles Hall testimony of the 'Tall White' ETs and UFOs, the investigations do not negate any of the testimony provided by Charles Hall. In contrast, the independent testimonies of three other servicemen who served at Indian Springs and the remote weather ranges confirm many aspects of Hall's narration of events at the isolated and secure facililty. Therefore, the credibility of Charles Hall as a 'whistleblower' describing events occuring in a classified project at the Indian Springs facility at Nellis AFB during 1965-67 is strengthened. The 1951 Las Vegas Review Journal story also lends support to Charles Hall claims about a large underground facility constructed in the mountains located at Indian Springs specifically for the use of Tall White personnel and their interstellar vehicles. Investigations conducted to corroborate Charles Hall testimony so far indicate that Charles has stuck closely to the actual events and personnel described in his series of books. The three witness testimonies and the Las Vegas Review journal all offer independent confirmation for various aspects of Hall's testimony. This provides independent evidence that Charles Hall's claims about the Tall Whites being based on a secure and isolated military facility on Nellis Air Force base are worth serious consideration by researchers into the UFO phenomenon and exopolitics. c. Michael E. Salla, PhD August 8, 2005 http://www.exopolitics.org drsalla.nul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Contactee Taboo - Deardorff From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:21:39 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:12:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Deardorff >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 16:50:15 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 14:21:21 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 08:03:47 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>Rich, >>It's no problem for the ETI to transport a contactee to wherever >>they wish and tell him it's Venus, or the Moon's back side, or >>whatever. Or, if they view out of a UFO port, they're seeing >>through some sort of screen on which the ETI could plant >>whatever images they wished. >>ous assumptions that the UFO aliens wouldn't be smart >>enough to have a strategy of dealing with us, and wouldn't treat >>their contactees to some disinformation as part of their >>strategy, are only that -- assumptions. It need not be only what >>they tell their contactees. >Jim: >Your scenario stretches credulity, for me, but I admit the >possibility of what you say. >But why take a group of, shall we say, non-credentialed, >individuals when the aliens could do exactly the same thing to a >Carl Sagan or Richard Hall or Jerome Clark, or even you? >If those persons and you were to relate such experiences, then >we'd have something. Rich, Can you not answer your own question? What if we were to allow that the "I" in ETI represents intelligence that's quite a bit more informed than ours, and more knowledgeable? Surely allowing that as a worthwhile possibility shouldn't be too upsetting to ufologists. Next step: Consider that there was truth in the Brookings Report, that a lot of chaos would ensue if the UFO coverup were quickly unraveled, and that that conclusion remains valid today. In fact, the chaos could be a lot worse than the Brookings Report would dare mention, lest they be accused of scare- mongering. Next: Consider that the UFO aliens in charge of sightings, etc., realize this, and no doubt a lot more. If they were to have continually acquired contactees of the stature of Carl Sagan, and if such persons were then to have the courage to make public their experiences, the UFO coverup could come unraveled in a hurry, especially if Western science were to thereby catch onto the UFO/alien reality. Yet by continuing their sightings, abductions & contacts, CC-formations, etc., as they have been, never leaving too much evidence behind, they do make their presence and capabilities known, via experiencers and ufologists, to those who are interested and can accept it. The upshot is the conclusion that the ETI in charge don't want to be responsible for bringing about the collapse of Western societies and institutions. Corolaries are that they're spending a lot of attention on us, they take a long range view of things, and their ethical level seems OK relative to society as a whole. I suppose they do contact scientists from time to time, but that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: UFOs & Crop Formations - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos.nul> Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 13:44:16 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:13:55 -0400 Subject: Re: UFOs & Crop Formations - Balaskas >From: Sergey Shpakovsky <sergejsh.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 17:58:14 -0400 (EDT) >Subject: UFOs & Crop Formations [was: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon] >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:43:27 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon >>Unlike crop circles or physical evidence cases (such as the >>alien blonde hair strands that Bill Chalker and Whitley Strieber >>obtained and sent out for testing) where no UFOs are ever >>sighted... >There is at least 2 cases with UFOs in connection with crop >circles: >Close Encounter Of The Third Kind In Poland: >http://www.rense.com/general52/fsffee.htm Greetings Sergey! Although the alien/UFO encounter Lech Chacinski claimed to have had two years ago this month is an incredible single witness case, a careful reading of this report only said that "the area of the encounter is also one where crop circles often appear". Here in Toronto where we both live, many strange things are also reported such as a mysterious ice circle on the Don River and a much more recent UFO sighting by some women from an apartment near the same river. The temporal and causal connection between these UFOs and ice/crop circles in both these Canadian and Polish accounts are wishful thinking or tenuous at best. >and >Eyewitness Report Of Crop Circle Forming Wylatowo, Poland - 2000: >http://www.bltresearch.com/eyewitness2.html Although Nancy Talbot is an enthusiastic promoter of the UFO crop circle connection, she is far from a cautious or critical investigator. Even her personal account of the formation of a crop circle after seeing a beam of light coming down from the sky while staying at a friend's home is very suspect since she admits the curtains were closed in her bedroom at the time! The inclusion of a fish with a cross symbol on it similar to the design in some of their crop circles to me suggests that it was more of a religious than a UFO hoax. Even before a Polish pope became head of the Roman Catholic Church, Poland remains a very religious country and although one can make a case for a UFO and ET connection to what also happened in Fatima, Portugal in 1917, it has not been established either. Finally, the addition in this BLT web site of some very dubious pictures which can easily be reproduced through multiple/long exposure photography of Robert Bernatowicz lecture - a person who claims he can anticipate when and where new crop circles will form - is simply too much for even an open minded person like me to accept on faith. >And one more, when "Computer-mouse" shaped objects, were seen by >Mike Booth, moving along the wheat heads: >http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm?ID=931&category=Environment Again, this is also a single witness case. The white "computer- mouse" shaped objects in the drawings don't look any different than those white cars with the same shape in the distance. Since the witness, Mike Booth, also happens to be a designer and an artist, this fact brings up more red flags for me. Apart from the few much more credible UFO reports of vehicles seen to rise out of fields leaving behind "saucer nests" (not the large elaborate and abstract designs which can easily and readily be made by humans) or circular marks on the ground where nothing grows later (eg. the Delphos, Kanasas case), a connection bewteen UFOs and crop circles has never been
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Redfern From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 11:06:50 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:18:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Redfern >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 01:06:16 EDT >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >You keep dodging what your own sources told you, as stated in >your book, that the purpose of the UFO disinformation was to >cause "confusion" among UFO researchers (pp. 84, 89) by >"flooding the UFO community with a mass of confusing, > contradictory and outright bogus stories" (p. 89), by "muddying >the waters" (p. 173). But this "flooding" thing only works if someone puts the material out there! As I point out, I got Levine's story _9_ years ago and it's only been published this year. The Black Widow's story is _4_ years old and only now just published. I did nothing with the material. If this is disinfo that someone wanted pumping out there, they should have moved on to someone else. My point is still that if someone wanted to continue to flood the UFO community with faked materials, then I would be the worst person to select precisely because I _wasn't_ flooding the community with this material - I was listening to what the people were telling me, and filing it away. >Gee, I see a bunch of "doing somethings" by you in the 2001-4 >period that were clearly UFO-related and could be construed to >suggest you were investigating Roswell. >You lectured at the Aztec 2003 UFO Symposium in March 2003, in >Aztec, NM, on "UFO Incidents in England: The British Roswells, >with Nick Redfern." This was a lecture based upon a book written 5-6 years before the lecture and published 4 years before the lecture. Not new research. >Sounds like you could have been interpreted by disinfo agents as >pursuing "Roswell." Then they are inept and should be fired. I gave a lecture on a then-4-year-old book. Nothing more. >Did you write for Duat in 2002 as well? No I didn't. >Were you writing about UFO's and/or being associated with >a bunch of other well-known UFO authors such as Richard Dolan, >Linda Howe, Randy Fitzgerald and Whitley Strieber? No. I wrote 3 articles for Phenomena magazine at the time on (a) CIA files on Noah's Ark; (b) the Loch Ness Monster; and (c) Foot and Mouth disease in cattle. >Are you among the "biggest names in the whole genre?" I had no role in writing the press release that said that!! >Whatever happened >to the book on UFO hoaxer Silas Newton you were working on with >Karl Pflock in the 2001-4 time frame? That could happen, but remember that we have _never_ done _any_ writing for it yet, at all. >Weren't you interviewed >on the Aztec UFO crash "case" in March 2003 by Paul Kimball for >his video documentary? Yes I was interviewed for Paul's show. That constitutes me doing research, to you? >In fact you and I were emailing in that 2001-4 period of you >"doing nothing" on UFO's and you emailed me on Sept 21, 2004, to >say: "I too have been digging quietly into Roswell the last few >years...." >By my count "the last few years" sounds like it covers all of >2001-4. Eh??? What is the argument on this specific point? I point out in the References section of the book that the interviews for the book (aside from Levine in 96) covered the period July 2001 to February 2004. My email to you reflects _exactly_ what I was doing in that period - various interviews with old-timers re Roswell in the period 2001 to 2004 that led to the publication of the book; and occasional discussions with the sources in this same period. >You also wrote in the same email: >"Notably, it was when I began making a lot of inquiries about >the Anomalies List that I got a lot of calls from these old- >timers/insiders all contacting me supposedly innocently and >agenda-free, which I don't believe for a moment. I take >everything they say guardedly as this really is a hall of >mirrors and I have no doubt that I touched a raw nerve with >these people. " >That sounds to me like you were saying the "old->timers/insiders" >Colonel-Black Widow-Salter-Barker et al. came forth because you >had "touched a raw nerve" with the disinfo people with a >Roswell- related investigation (a seemingly crucial background >that is not mentioned anywhere in your book). This targeting of >a Roswell investigator (you) as he gets "too close to the truth" >is the very same disinfo scenario you are now vigorously >disputing (even though it is not my scenario). No, of course I am not saying that the people who contacted me re the Anomalies List were the same people I interviewed for the book. You should know that because re. the Anomalies List: I said that I did _not_ believe those people. So how could that be the Colonel, Salter, etc., when those people I _do_ believe, as per the book! The people who came forward re. the Anomalies List were telling the usual stuff about aliens living in underground bases, aliens kidnapping people and doing diabolical experiments as per Dulce, etc. All the usual paranoid stuff that fascinates some but that is surely garbage. >Maybe the disinformation agents read this 2003 press release and >assumed you were back in the saddle, maybe they were wrong and >misread it. Maybe they saw all the other signs of your activity >in the UFO field and your pounding on the "Roswell" case and >parallels at the Aztec March 2003 conference and the Majestic >apologists' UFO conference in Nov 2003. Maybe they thought you >could be a source of persuasion to Richard Dolan et al. Maybe to all of the above, but as I have said before, it would not have taken them long to learn that what I was doing was giving lectures on information published in my books, 4, 5 and 6 years earlier. >Your new series of on-the-record interviews for the Roswell Fugo >War Crimes scenario does seem to start soon after, on Dec. 6, >2003. Correct. But that's because of background that you won't be aware of, including when and where we all sat down and agreed that I was finally able to go ahead with full interviews. >You met the Colonel at Ryan and Bob Wood's "1st Annual UFO Crash >Retrieval Conference" in Henderson, Nevada, about Nov. 15, 2003, >where you were a speaker - twice! That does not seem like >"doing nothing" in the UFO field in 2001-4 to attract notice >from disinformation operatives. But again, _both_ lectures were on material published in my 1999 book, Cosmic Crashes. >"Nick Redfern =E2?" Cosmic Crashes: UFO Crashes in Britain Nick >Redfern will be lecturing on accounts of reported UFO crashes in >England dating from the Second World War to the present day and >will present documents, photographs and additional materials >relating to the cases in question. He will also address claims >that alien bodies have been recovered and autopsied by the >British military." Yes, and again, this was all from my 1999 book, Cosmic Crashes. >Here is what you spoke about in Nov 2004 at the 2nd Annual >UFO Crash Retrieval Confertence: >"Nick Redfern - Crashed UFOs: A Worldwide History >An exciting, personal perusal of Moon Dust and other retrieval >operations, includes an in-depth penetration of an apparent >crash in Bolivia in 1978, with related tales of CIA and NSA >deception >examples." This (above) was all (aside from one addition) taken from Chapter 14 (titled "The Worldwide Reports") of my 1999 book, Cosmic Crashes. I circulated my findings _confidentially_ to more >than a dozen researchers, including our beloved mutual friend >Karl Pflock, in which I identified the AAF general in charge of >Project NEPA as visiting Roswell and found indications of >possible AEC involvement. Very interesting. Will we get to see this? Even though I haven't seen your paper, I find it highly illuminating that now - after weeks of debate - you come forward saying that even you think there might be a NEPA (Nuclear Energy for Propulsion of Aircraft project) angle to Roswell after all! Even if it is one that doesn't go along with Body Snatchers. >Notice that the first mention of NEPA in the Roswell Fugo War >Crimes scenario was by Black Widow in July 2001. Mr. "Levine" >back in 1996 and Jim Wilson in Pop Mechanics in 1997 made no >mention of NEPA. It is only after I had privately circulated my >NEPA-Roswell findings to select researchers in March 2001. And, yes, that is all very interesting. But remember what I said in the book: according to all the sources, there were a number of incidents that occurred. And NEPA was apparently tied in with several. If even you, Brad, are now making a tie with NEPA and Roswell, then who knows what else will surface re NEPA and Roswell and the NM crashes of that period? >does she live in LA now? Yes the Black Widow lives in LA. That is why the meeting was arranged after I lectured there in 2001 on my 1997 book, A Covert Agenda. And, as I mentioned, according to her, it was the fact that she had read my 1998 The FBI Files book (that included a chapter on sightings at AEC/Oak Ridge places during her time of employment) that made her comfortable about speaking. >So "Al Barker" and "Bill Salter" are their genuine names? Yes. Unless you are going to argue that if the data is disinfo then they somehow were able to forge (or were provided with) even the most innocuous material concerning their names. As an example of this innocuous angle: Salter bought lunch for us in Waco and on one occasion paid by credit card. His name was on that card. Unless you want to argue that he had borrowed the card for effect, etc., and purposely let me see it as it sat on the table. But again, these are the sorts of things we can go on and on about. On a totally non-UFO related matter: as some Listers know, my mom has had Alzheimer's for around 10 or 11 years and is very ill now; and as a result I am going back again to the UK in 2 days time until around the end of the month. I will be unable to check in online while away and so won't have access to Updates for reading or reply. Doubtless, this debate may continue. But UFOs are of minor
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Secrecy News -- 08/08/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:20:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:25:39 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/08/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 77 August 8, 2005 ** TERRORISTS, THE INTERNET AND THE BETALUMINIUM THREAT ** BERNTSEN V. CIA ON PREPUBLICATION REVIEW ** TWO OTHER VIEWS OF PREPUBLICATION REVIEW ** PRIMARY SOURCES ON HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI TERRORISTS, THE INTERNET AND THE BETALUMINIUM THREAT "Terrorists Turn to the Web as Base of Operations," a Washington Post headline declared in a front-page, above-the-fold story on August 7. "Among other things, al Qaeda and its offshoots are building a massive and dynamic online library of training materials," the Post reported, and offered sample documents from this library on its own web site. But contrary to the Post story line, the cited library materials suggest a startling lack of technical competence. Unfortunately, the Post did not critically examine the materials that it presented. The Post story's uncertain grasp of the underlying science was signalled early on when it twice mistakenly referred to a virus as the cause of pneumonic plague. Pneumonic plague is caused by a bacterium, Yersinia pestis, not by a virus. A page excerpted by the Post online from "The Mujahideen Poisons Handbook" purported to explain how to manufacture "betaluminium poison." But there is no such thing as betaluminium poison. (The word appears to be a corruption of "botulinum"). Nor would the proffered production method -- combining fresh horse manure, meat, grain and water in a sealed jar -- yield much more than a stinky mess. "The first time I saw [the Mujahideen Poisons Handbook]," said chemist George Smith of GlobalSecurity.org, "I thought it must be a hoax." "Careful examination of the document shows that it is crammed with errors, seemingly the work of someone with little discernible sense, profoundly ignorant of the nature of simple compounds and incompetent in even minor [laboratory] procedures," Dr. Smith wrote in National Security Notes in March 2004: http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/nsn/nsn-040304.htm In short, the Mujahideen Poisons Handbook that was excerpted on the Washington Post web site indicates something nearly the opposite of what the Post article on terrorist use of the internet claimed to show. "The 'Poisons Handbook' is an example of someone professing to know what he is doing on poisons who profoundly and obviously does not know what he is doing," Dr. Smith said. If the Poisons Handbook is indeed representative of the "massive and dynamic online library of training materials" offered by jihadists, then that is good news for public safety and security. The Washington Post, the best of newspapers, is far from alone in succumbing to, and propagating, exaggerated threat assessments. There seems to be a powerful temptation to believe that terrorists are everywhere and, aided by "the internet," capable of everything. It is a temptation that needs to be confronted and thought through. BERNTSEN V. CIA ON PREPUBLICATION REVIEW A forthcoming book by former CIA operations officer Gary Berntsen that claims the U.S. knowingly allowed Osama bin Laden to escape from Tora Bora during the war in Afghanistan is held up in the CIA prepublication review process, and is now the subject of litigation by the author. "Berntsen says he had definitive intelligence that bin Laden was holed up at Tora Bora... and could have been caught," according to an article in Newsweek this week. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8853000/site/newsweek/ "Although Plaintiff [Berntsen] properly and fully abided by the pre-publication review requirements imposed by his secrecy agreement, Defendant [CIA] has responded in a manner that has violated his First Amendment rights," a lawsuit filed by Berntsen claims. "[CIA] has frustrated the publication of the book by failing to timely deliver his draft manuscript and by asserting unsupportable classification decisions. Such conduct violates the rights of free speech guaranteed by the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States." See a copy of the Berntsen complaint here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/jud/berntsen.pdf "Gary Bernsten is a take-no-prisoners kind of guy and has certainly seized the high ground," said a U.S. Government official familiar with the case. "More power to him." TWO OTHER VIEWS OF PREPUBLICATION REVIEW A 1981 CIA inspection report described the origins and development of the prepublication review process for manuscripts authored by CIA employees and former employees. It candidly noted the perception of unfairness and bias in the handling of manuscripts depending on whether they favored or criticized the Agency. "To some, it would appear the government had far less reason to prosecute [former CIA officer] Frank Snepp [author of the Vietnam memoir 'Decent Interval'] for his breach of contract than it does to pursue [former DCI William] Colby," who released the text of his memoir to his French publisher prior to its review and approval by the CIA. See the draft 1981 CIA inspection report on the Publication Review Board here (thanks to MJR): http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/prb1981.pdf For a more recent account, see "Secrets, Free Speech, and Fig Leaves" by John Hollister Hedley, Studies in Intelligence, Spring 1998: http://www.odci.gov/csi/studies/spring98/Secret.html PRIMARY SOURCES ON HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI An exceptionally rich collection of government documents on the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, including translations of Japanese diplomatic cable traffic, has been compiled and edited by William Burr of the National Security Archive. See "The Atomic Bomb and the End of World War II: A Collection of Primary Sources," August 5: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/index.htm _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Philip Corso & NSC - Randle From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:28:14 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:35:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC - Randle >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 07:18:45 -1000 >Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC >>From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:03:23 EDT >>Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC >>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:01:17 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC ><snip> >>>Is someone who rants on and on about how the military go around >>>altering a person's academic credentials, revising and deleting >>>his personal life history as it suits them and, presumably, >>>destroying each and every record of this victim's achievements >>>(to say nothing of erasing the memories of all the academics >>>& colleagues who taught, or who worked with, the said victim), >>>all because the said person was on the verge of becoming a >>>'whistleblower', worth taking seriously? >>>Anyone who accepts that such things are possible can side with >>>Michael Salla. Anyone who does not (i.e. I presume, at least 99 >>>per cent of this List) will side with Brad Sparks. I know which >>>side I'm on. >>>CDA: >>Dr. Salla is worth taking seriously, as Brad, Kevin, Stan Friedman, >>Josh Goldstein, Dick Hall, myself and others have done at various >>times, because its important to set the record straight for those who >>might wander by, here or elsewhere, and just get Dr. Salla's side of >>the story. He is also worth taking seriously simply because he is one >>of the main proponents of exopolitics, and its important for ufology >>to make a very clear, and public, distinction between the fringes - >>like exopolitics - and the serious study of the UFO phenomenon, just >>as it was important to make the distinction, years ago, between >>the contactees and the serious study of the UFO phenomenon. >>Kudos to Brad and Kevin for their recent efforts. <snip> >Paul Kimball cites researchers such as Brad Sparks, Kevin >Randall, Stanton Friedman, Josh Goldstein, Richard Hall and >himself as exemplary models for systematically defining the >parameters of the "Serious Study of the UFO phenomenon" in terms >of a 'scientific method' for studying UFO sightings, the >abduction phenomenon, FOIA documents, etc. It's worth pointing >out that aside from Stanton Friedman, none of these gentlemen >are scientists that enable them to authoritatively establish the >scientific method as championed as the exemplary model for UFO >research. In Stanton's case while he worked as nuclear >physicist, he doesn't have a PhD nor does he have a record of >peer reviewed publications in scientific journals. While Kevin >Randall does have a PhD, it's in psychology, not any of the >physical sciences cited as the model for the serious study of >the UFO phenomenon. Also, I am not aware of Dr Randall having >published psychology papers in peer reviewed psychology journals >or practiced clinical psychology. First, I would like to point out that I take trouble to make sure that I spell the names of those I address correctly. Sure, I sometimes screw it up, but not after I have had multiple exchanges with that individual. I not sure what Dr. Salla is implying here. That we who have advanced degrees should be ignored in favor of those who have high school diplomas? That somehow, because two of my advanced degrees are in psychology that somehow I missed the classes on physical science. My undergraduate work was in anthropology, or more specifically, the high civilizations of Mesoamerica and the Central Andes with an emphasis on settlement patterns. I studied astronomy under Dr. James van Allen (yeah the radiation belt guy) but to be fair, he taught but a single class and was the chairman of the department. Most of the classes were taught by others. I have been involved in a couple of psychology experiments and have published in peer reviewed journals. The one known to nearly everyone on this List is "A Message in a Bottle: Confounds in Deciphering the Ramey Memo from the Roswell Case", with Jim Houran. I will also point out that I have no desire to be a clinician and that many who have degrees in psychology use them in other arenas from research to industrial and sports psychology. Maybe he'd like to trot out that old chestnut that I write science fiction so that my research should be suspect - though about half the members of the Science Fiction Writers of America are working scientists and no one from those other disciplines seemed concerned about it. But mostly, I have noticed that I have seen no response to my suggestions that Cliff Stone (who does have a high school diploma) and who has freely violated his security oaths and who has said that he has shared classified information with those not cleared to have it, now balks at telling us the new name for Project Moon Dust. I also await the proper name of the EBE guidebook so that I might use FOIA to request a copy since Dr. Salla has made it clear that Stone will not reveal classified information and therefore the document must be unclassified.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Crop Circles Decoded? From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:32:56 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:38:14 -0400 Subject: Crop Circles Decoded? Depictions & Explanations Of Crop Formations In relation To Microwaves By Tom Sutter Microwaves are created within a device we call a magnetron. Don't let that complicated sounding name intimidate you. A magnetron is a simple, straightforward device. It forces electrons to go from a negative terminal to a positive terminal whilst passing through a magnetic field. When electrons encounter magnetic line of force, they rotate (spin) around that line of force before proceeding toward the positive terminal that they are traveling to. That electron/magnetic interaction results in the creation of microwave energies. NOW... WHY would advanced societies bother to show us how a magnetron works? I mean, of all the many wondrous things to disclose to us, why do you think they would pick a 'thing' that we already know about? I'll tell you why. It is because of an overlooked-by-us usage of microwave energies. At a specific frequency at about 27 GHZ - Microwaves 'shake-up' a water molecule to the point where that molecule splits into its constituent parts. Namely, hydrogen and oxygen. Whereupon, at that high rate of agitation, they promptly rejoin once again to form the water molecule that was just split. And guess what? - the process repeats! Because the 3.3 volts of electrical energy emitted when the hydrogen and oxygen atoms combine is raised via the incorporation of a circuitry consisting of huge capacitors and diodes and then fed back into the magnetron's central mesh o f high temperature, non magnetic, insulated wires, where the hydrogen/oxygen are combining/splitting.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Nick Redfern Ahead Of The Pack - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:40:49 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:40:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Redfern Ahead Of The Pack - Boone >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:28:25 +0200 >Subject: Re: Nick Redfern Ahead Of The Pack >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 00:43:12 EDT >>Subject: Nick Redfern Ahead Of The Pack >>http://tinyurl.com/czy3g >>I'm glad on several fronts that this story about Japan's >>occupation of China has hit the mainstream news. >>I have several friends who are tied in heavily with this story >>and major events in China. >>Nick's recent book focuses on the horrific cruelties >>perpetrated on the Chinese during WWII especially the >>infamous >>Unit 731. >Which have nothing to do with Roswell, and certainly don't put >him "ahead of the pack". See my post of July 16, "More questions >on Body Snatchers". 'Scuse me, but who mentioned anything about Roswell?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 15:20:34 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:42:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? - Hatch >Source: Raiders News Update >http://www.raidersnewsupdate.com/missiontomars2.htm >Wednesday, May 18, 2005 >If Evidence Of Ancient Civilizations Are Discovered Elsewhere In The Galaxy, Will You Lose Your Religion? >By Thomas Horn RNU >News Sr. Reporter >Survey's show a majority of people believe in and could accept >a genuine ET reality without losing faith. <snip> I'm probably missing something here, but at first glance this looks like a silly question. Lots of people prefer to believe in God etc., while others are unpersuaded by scripture and tradition. If life is discovered on Jupiter, will I quit smoking? Probably
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 8 Re: Contactee Taboo - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:36:26 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:45:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Velez >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:50:54 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:51:06 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 16:50:15 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >><snip> Hello All, >>>But why take a group of, shall we say, non-credentialed, >>>individuals when the aliens could do exactly the same thing to a >>>Carl Sagan or Richard Hall or Jerome Clark, or even you? Abductions are multi-generational and appear to follow certain 'families' (blood-lines.) That is, if you actually assign a little weight to the reports of the abductees. The reason why people are taken probably has more to do with their genetic make-up than anything else. An unfortunate accident of being born into a family blood-line that is part of an 'ongoing' study. If this is in fact the case, and they have tinkered somehow with the genetics of certain families, then wealth, fame/status, position, level of education, or any other 'social' criteria just wouldn't matter to them. But, to even consider the possibility you would first have to give some credence to the reports being made by the victims. That's something _few_ ever do. Also, why are you guys so sure that world leaders and other outstanding figures have not been taken? >>Let me just postulate for a moment that we are as much a mystery >>to them as they are to us. Perhaps our social structure is so >>"alien" to them, that they would have no concept of who we >>consider important, or why. The best policy under that scenario >>would be random contacts, which looks just like what is >>happening. >Bob: >What you say may be true, but alien space travelers not scoping >out their targets seems rather primitive to me. >In the olden days, the aliens seemed to know who to grab: Moses, >Ezekiel, Mary (the mother of Jesus), Judge Crater, and Jimmy >Hoffa. >Somehow they must have lost their ability to discriminate over >time. What a snide remark. The aliens are apparently messing with ordinary people, and you read that as evidence that they have lost all ability to discriminate. I don't know if that's just a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:56:14 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 09:26:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? - Boone >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 15:20:34 -0700 >Subject: Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? >>Source: Raiders News Update >>http://www.raidersnewsupdate.com/missiontomars2.htm >>Wednesday, May 18, 2005 >>If Evidence Of Ancient Civilizations Are Discovered Elsewhere >>In The Galaxy, Will You Lose Your Religion? >>By Thomas Horn RNU >>News Sr. Reporter >>Survey's show a majority of people believe in and could accept >>a genuine ET reality without losing faith. ><snip> >I'm probably missing something here, but at first glance this >looks like a silly question. >Lots of people prefer to believe in God etc., while others are >unpersuaded by scripture and tradition. >If life is discovered on Jupiter, will I quit smoking? Probably >not. I fail to make the connection. I needed that laugh Larry Hatch :) I think we need a new amendment in the Constitution: "Freedom_From_Religion" That way people who don't want to be forced into believeing something that happened to someone else that can't be proven, they don't have to. I say we pass a new law that the next guy that shows up claiming he knows it all or is speaking for God or whatever has to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt or we get to run him out of town on a rail or worse we send him to work in a Florida nursing home for life. Wait, that might be considered cruel and unusual punishment. Anyway, when electricy was discovered, people still went to church. When radio was discovered, preachers showed up right off the bat. When television was invented, we ended up with global broadcasting of preachers of all faiths. I'm sure that the minute we find out there are beings from other worlds someone from here will show up in a space ship passing out flyers and booklets. Or worse, vice versa. Our religions are scary so I doubt if any other beings would want to park a cheek or two in a pew and wait for the plate to be passed. I'll bet all the other religions throughout the universe are peaceful and full of fluffy bunnies and cute pink eggs or some such. I'll bet we have the toughest religions this side of the Horse Head Nebula. We don't wimp around when it comes to religions! We've got good ol' blood n' guts and slaughter and mayhem! We'll show them aliens what religion is, by gum! I mean really, if you just showed up on Earth and saw the crucifixion scene and asked what that fella did to deserve that and someone said " Oh he was the Son of God " I'm sure you'ld make the first bee line to the nearest other star system. I have this strange feeling that maybe Rod Serling should have written the scriptures. I think the Klingons from 'Star Trek' fame killed their gods
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:22:13 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 09:29:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:21:39 -0700 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 16:50:15 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo <snip>> >The upshot is the conclusion that the ETI in charge don't want >to be responsible for bringing about the collapse of Western >societies and institutions. Corolaries are that they're spending >a lot of attention on us, they take a long range view of things, >and their ethical level seems OK relative to society as a whole. >I suppose they do contact scientists from time to time, but that >most all of them don't want to ruin their careers by speaking >out. >Jim Jim: Your views are not anathema to me. But the practical result(s) of what you relate seem long in coming, maybe not in the great scheme of things but in real time-frames. This reminds me of Jesus saying "This generation will not pass away before these things come to pass." Well, that generation. and many more, have come and gone, yet no denouement, of any kind. Conditioning human beings, so as not to disrupt societial constructs is sure taking a long time, for beings endowed as you propose.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 Re: Google Cheese From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:28:11 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 09:43:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Google Cheese ----- From: Gina Miller <nanogirl.nul> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat.nul> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 22:31:11 -0700 Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] UFO on satellite photo. I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to curb a moment of boredom. I did this for fun, perhaps to get you all to smile (thought Spike would like this humor!), and mainly to see if I could reproduce the image, not to speculate one way or another. And, as you have already established, I would never, ever upload to a site where I do not have authorization to do so. Just an incorrigible artist here, but that's all! :) The only way I was able to save the image from Google Maps was to hit the "Print Screen" button, since if you take a look, you can see that there is no right click "save picture" option available (PC users) on their site. I don't know what program they are using but I did notice that they will allow others embedded access of Google maps on their web site using Java Script. So it might be safe to assume that this could be what they are using as well. But JavaScript may just be the "viewer" so to speak of the images, and not the actual format of the images - (for example the standard psd, or jpg format - they/or the satellite people could also be using some proprietary file extension). Anyway, since I saved it as my own generated Prt Sc image (jpg), if there was an original format I did not have access to it. Hypothetically, if I were looking at a psd of an image, I would be able to see all of the layers and figure out how everything works, but if it was a jpg these layers would be compressed and thus the history would be lost. For example the image that I made, while I was making my version(s), I was saving as a psd, and each part had it's separate layer, but when I saved it to a jpg and uploaded it, you wouldn't be able to tell if I did anything to it, unless you were a forensic graphic pro or something (or if I was really bad at it - if I am, don't tell me). But the point is moot, since as I mentioned earlier, the image I used as a base was from my own jpg generated "print screen" save - so I was not able to see or determine anything from the flat replicated image. I did notice one thing while making my reproduction, when I looked at the first image mentioned on the list I noticed that the background (the houses and streets etc.) was a little shaky, out of focus, as opposed to the Google Map I sequestered of my neighborhood. This was the only thing that stood out to me, simply because mine was so clear. To make mine look the same I had to blur the whole image a few times before I began (minus the letters in the right bottom and the buttons on the top right). This also helped later when trying to have a natural transition from the real photo to the object I created. To create my mysterious object, it was really quite simple. I drew an empty selection circle on a new layer and filled it with a gradient of the same colors on the original object: white, grey and light blue. With Keith's observation in mind, I looked at the direction of the shadows under the trees and houses in the picture and lined my gradient in the same direction, so that it would match. I then applied a bevel contour to the circle so that it appeared a little 3D. Then I blurred it to soften it. The original mystery object looked like it had a slight transparent haze around it. To achieve this effect I simply duplicated my circle, and using the free transform, enlarged it so that it was a little bigger than my first circle, I emptied the center of it (making a halo ring), lowered the opacity quite a bit and added blur to this too. I merged the center of the circle and the surrounding haze into one. Then I positioned it, so that the haze was obviously layered over defined structures, so that it appeared to be hovering. Specifically, semi transparent blur over the houses tricks the eye into thinking the object is floating above them. If I had the same object over that park area (where you see the baseball diamond) there would be no distinctive structure underneath the haze that our eyes would surmise as lower or underneath it. It also doesn't have a lot of distinct color variations to simulate perspective either. That was it! Honestly this thing could be anything, I'm not up on my satellite engineering, lenses or software - but I could easily imagine that if it wasn't something legit in the air, it could be any number of these things interacting with or leaving an artifact on the photo. Here are two super close ups for you: Original: http://www.nanogirl.com/images/satellitetheirs.jpg Mine: http://www.nanogirl.com/images/satellitemine.jpg You can see the original is more blue and you can tell in my pixels that the image has been blurred.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:31:09 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 09:44:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:36:26 -0400 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:50:54 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:51:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo ><snip> >>In the olden days, the aliens seemed to know who to grab: Moses, >>Ezekiel, Mary (the mother of Jesus), Judge Crater, and Jimmy >>Hoffa. >>Somehow they must have lost their ability to discriminate over >>time. >What a snide remark. The aliens are apparently messing with >ordinary people, and you read that as evidence that they have >lost all ability to discriminate. I don't know if that's just a >bad joke or poor thinking. I would venture that it's some >from column A and some from column B. John: The "snide" remark was an attempt at humor to lighten the debate so it wouldn't degenerate into the usual hard-nosed banter that is rampant right now, here and eslewhere. The point was that alien contactors were not picking the cream of the human crop when they picked Adamski, Fry, Menger, et al. (it seems to me). If your experience has rendered your sense of humor null and void,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:54:03 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 09:47:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks >From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 11:06:50 -0700 >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 01:06:16 EDT >>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>You keep dodging what your own sources told you, as stated in >>your book, that the purpose of the UFO disinformation was to >>cause "confusion" among UFO researchers (pp. 84, 89) by >>"flooding the UFO community with a mass of confusing, >> contradictory and outright bogus stories" (p. 89), by "muddying >>the waters" (p. 173). >But this "flooding" thing only works if someone puts the >material out there! As I point out, I got Levine's story _9_ >years ago and it's only been published this year. <snip> You have totally evaded everything I have posted on the standard disinformation disruption tactics as revealed by the Church Committee. See my main posting on Aug. 6: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/aug/m06-009.shtml You even deleted my quote of the provocative headline for your March 2003 Aztec Crashed UFO lecture, just to de-emphasize the obviousness of your public UFO activities that could easily have been interpreted by busy disinfo agents as a public interest in Roswell even more specifically than in just UFO's generally. "UFO Incidents In England: The British Roswells with Nick Redfern" You made the ridiculous insinuation that they should have actually attended your Aztec lecture just to find out it was "old" 1999 information. Like they really give a rat's ass what the date of your lecture material was (or would even think 1999 was "old" when most UFO researchers have not published any books ever) when they would care much more about the more obvious fact that you were in the public eye on the UFO subject in 2001-3, even on Roswell specifically. You bring up absurd arguments that cleverly twist every point around to evade and dodge the facts. For example, you twist the "flooding" argument of your very own "sources" (admitted long- time disinformation experts) to somehow mean only _one_ person has to do _all_ of the "flooding" of the UFO community with bogus material, and that you could not be that "one person" because you were not "flooding" anyone with UFO material. That is a gross distortion of your own sources' scenario as described in your book which clearly stated that varied and _numerous_ "UFO writers" were fed "bogus stories," with the Colonel's emphatic stress on the plurality and multiplicity of such "UFO writers" (not "Roswell writers") when he said they used "UFO writers like the Keyhoes, the Scullys, and the Stringfields" (p. 102) This obviously means _multiple_ "UFO writers" like Keyhoe, thus _multiple_ "Keyhoes," etc. You just evade the plain common sense English. Are you alone a multiple set of "Keyhoes"? Then stop trying to foist the rubbish that you alone could not have been used for foisting the Roswell Fugo War Crimes story because you were just one person and not doing any "flooding" as just one person. "Flooding" of rumors usually takes multiple people. Occasional exceptions do not mean that disinfo agencies would deliberately plan as a standard procedure to only wait till they find and can use the exceptional one-person channel to "flood" the UFO community or any other targeted group with bogus rumors. There is no reason in the world why _you_ would have been the one and only "UFO writer" or even non-UFO writer used. We already know that Jim Wilson of Popular Mechanics was approached with an early version of the same story in 1996-7. So there have already been indisputable signs of using _multiple_ channels to promote the Fugo War Crimes story, not _one person_. You yourself said this Jim Wilson approach "certainly can't be attributed to 'coincidence' " (p. 131). There is no reason in the world why you could not have one of say 10 contacts (or pick another number if you don't like "10") used to float the Roswell Fugo War Crimes disinfo, and you happen to be the one who went forward most forcefully, as a result of "trial and error." You don't know what the standard protocols in a disinfo op call for in terms of numbers of assets/contacts to be used and the numbers can vary from op[ to op and in the same op over time. Have you ever heard of the "trial and error shotgun" approach? It's not an exact science. You try multiple approaches and contacts and see which one _works_. You claim that you were not active enough but you ignore the fact that disinformation agencies would not have your appointment schedule. They could have had a list of, say, 10 potential contacts to try to use to spread the Fugo War Crimes story, and possibly as a low-key low-priority plan to do so over, say, a 10-year period, as there did not have to be any urgent reason to do so all at once, in one year or one month or one day (crashed saucer rumors have been floated since at least 1949, or more than 50 years). The Roswell Fugo story would certainly not be the only "bogus UFO story" but one of several if not many variations, some of which are "contradictory" to each other just as you were told (p. 89). The list of 10 contacts might have been compiled over time so they did not start out with 10 in say 1996. Contacts could be dropped or added in again over time depending on operational requirements and lucky circumstances (often used in intelligence, the "drop-ins," etc.). Maybe 4-5 others had better UFO / Roswell interest profiles than you at the time in 1996-2003. Maybe there were 4-5 others who actually had _worse_ profiles than you by having little or no UFO interest or Roswell interest - like Jim Wilson of Popular
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 Re: Contactee Taboo - Velez From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:33:58 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 09:50:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Velez >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:36:26 -0400 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:50:54 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:51:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 16:50:15 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>><snip> >Hello All, >>>>But why take a group of, shall we say, non-credentialed, >>>>individuals when the aliens could do exactly the same thing to a >>>>Carl Sagan or Richard Hall or Jerome Clark, or even you? >Abductions are multi-generational and appear to follow certain >'families' (blood-lines.) That is, if you actually assign a >little weight to the reports of the abductees. The reason why >people are taken probably has more to do with their genetic >make-up than anything else. An unfortunate accident of being >born into a family blood-line that is part of an 'ongoing' >study. If this is in fact the case, and they have tinkered >somehow with the genetics of certain families, then wealth, >fame/status, position, level of education, or any other 'social' >criteria just wouldn't matter to them. ... Hello John, Another possibility you ought to keep in mind is this. (One that's scarcely been mentioned in UFO books.) "They" may be interested in tracking certain individual souls and groups of souls (or spirits) over several lifetimes, for the sake of learning more about this process at our stage of development. The suspicion has been around for quite awhile that the means by which they can track individuals, wherever they may relocate to, is by their spirit "pattern," which is unique to every individual. So the above suggestion ties in with this. Second, those who study individuals' past lives, either through hypno-regression or through childhood cases of the reincarnation type, have found that quite a few of the same souls tend to participate in each others' lives over and over, especially within family relationships. It's not anything random. There's a lot that could be said on that. The upshot is that, for this reason, aliens' interest in an individual could include family members as well. Third, several investigators, such as Leo Sprinkle, also John Mack come to think of it, have found that some (small fraction of?) abductees have had alien past lives -- aliens who had visited Earth some time in the past and died here. So their interest in certain abductees/contactees could be for this reason. I realize that this topic is anathema to secular humanists and most ufologists, and of course to religious Fundamentalists as well, and thus is also taboo for a list like UFO Updates. However, the J. of Scientific Exploration (JSE) contains frequent articles on evidence of a person's most recent past life, as well as occasional UFO cases. So perhaps we need not
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 Re: Contactee Taboo - Frison From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 23:36:45 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:36:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Frison >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:36:26 -0400 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:50:54 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:51:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>><snip> >Hello All, >>>But why take a group of, shall we say, non-credentialed, >>>individuals when the aliens could do exactly the same thing to a >>>Carl Sagan or Richard Hall or Jerome Clark, or even you? >Abductions are multi-generational and appear to follow certain >'families' (blood-lines.) That is, if you actually assign a >little weight to the reports of the abductees. The reason why >people are taken probably has more to do with their genetic >make-up than anything else. An unfortunate accident of being >born into a family blood-line that is part of an 'ongoing' >study. If this is in fact the case, and they have tinkered >somehow with the genetics of certain families, then wealth, >fame/status, position, level of education, or any other 'social' >criteria just wouldn't matter to them. >But, to even consider the possibility you would first have to >give some credence to the reports being made by the victims. >That's something _few_ ever do. Also, why are you guys so sure >that world leaders and other outstanding figures have not been >taken? >>>Let me just postulate for a moment that we are as much a mystery >>>to them as they are to us. Perhaps our social structure is so >>>"alien" to them, that they would have no concept of who we >>>consider important, or why. The best policy under that scenario >>>would be random contacts, which looks just like what is >>>happening. >>Bob: >>What you say may be true, but alien space travelers not scoping >>out their targets seems rather primitive to me. >>In the olden days, the aliens seemed to know who to grab: Moses, >>Ezekiel, Mary (the mother of Jesus), Judge Crater, and Jimmy >>Hoffa. >>Somehow they must have lost their ability to discriminate over >>time. >What a snide remark. The aliens are apparently messing with >ordinary people, and you read that as evidence that they have >lost all ability to discriminate. I don't know if that's just a >bad joke or poor thinking. I would venture that it's some >from column A and some from column B. John: I concede there may be something to the 'abductions running in families' idea but I'll wait until there's a lot more evidence before I accept it as fact. I'll certainly wait before accepting as established fact the ideas of 'aliens,' genetic experiments,' on-going family studies,' etc. even if it is definitely proven that there is 'something running in families.' There could be other explanations. Don't take this to mean I'm hostile to the idea of ETs - on the contrary, I'd be very much surprised if ET wasn't involved to at least some extent. For example, take my own case! In my near 46 years of living, I've had three very good UFO sightings (definitely very anomalous ones) and several 'paranormal' type incidents that would seem to tie in with the UFO phenomenon though no UFO was actually seen. I don't know of one member in my close family who hasn't had at least one very harrowing experience with a UFO and most members have had more than one sighting/experience. Okay ... maybe there's a family thing going on here. Then again, maybe not! My mind is open to the idea but until I see some proof that my family is part of some 'special interest' or 'project' by the UFO intelligence then I'll lean towards other more prosaic explanations. Such as: all of my family's sightings (and experiences), as well as mine, took place in a small village (Reserve Mines, NS), or a small town very close nearby (Glace Bay, NS) and most were in excess of 20 years ago. Now, during that time period, we all lived only a couple of miles away from a heavy water production plant - in fact, we could see the sun gleaming off the columns most days from our livingroom window (the same window that my mother viewed the domed disk only five feet away from). Also, on the same island (Cape Breton Island) as 'our' heavy water plant, at the same time, there was a second heavy water production plant (in Port Hawksbury). So, on an island named Cape Breton Island, there was not one, but two, heavy water production plants. I'm not sure (I could be wrong) but I don't think there were any other such plants anywhere in North America. We lived in a very small village right next to one of the plants. Rather than the UFO intelligence having a special interest in me or my family, could it simply be that the UFO intelligence _might_ have had a special interest in heavy water production plants, and that they therefore would have a reason to pay more attention to a small area of the country where they found two such plants very close together? And if the UFO intelligence was a little more active in my area, could it simply be that a person or persons in a small town such as Reserve Mines or Glace Bay had a lot higher chance of seeing UFO's - and did see more UFO's because of this unusual situation of two heavy water production plants on one island? And as Richard Hall pointed out in his column 'Perspective' in the February 2000 issue of the MUFON UFO Journal, researchers have noticed a relationship between UFO sightings and mining towns or mines, perhaps indicating an interest on the UFO intelligence's part in minerals, ores, etc. Could the numerous mines that once dotted the village of Reserve Mines, the town of Glace Bay, and surrounding areas such as Sydney Mines, Gardiner Mines, etc. have really heightened an already much raised interest in the area, making the place - at least for awhile - a magnet for UFO's? No, rather than jump to conclusions without any evidence, I think I'll lean toward the explanation that we just happened to be in the right place at the right time and we all got to see UFO's more often simply because they were in the area more often, that they had an interest in the _area_ more than in either me or my family. I don't discount the 'runs in families' idea - I'm quite open to it actually - but, sorry, evidence first please. It's too easy to let one's mind run away with elaborate explanations when, with a little critical thinking, there might become obvious the more prosaic explanation that is the real reason. Tempting to think that I've got some special connection to the phenomenon but would I really be justified in thinking the UFO intelligence has some special interest in me (or my family) all because we've all seen a few more UFO's than most people, jump to that conclusion based on this alone? I don't think so! We just got lucky, I think! Lots of UFO's in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 Re: Contactee Taboo - Harrison From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:18:07 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:39:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Harrison >From: Martin Gottschall <mgottschall.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 11:37:28 +1000 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo Hi list & Martin >I've been studying selected contactees for about three decades, >and have certain views on their role in Ufology. >Naturally I keep studying only those contactees who I think are, >or may well be genuine, so all my comments are directed to this >group. What group of contactees are you studying Martin.? >I sugget that the following "obvious" notions be kept at the >forefront of one's mind: >1. The contactee is trying to bridge a huge chasm between our >culture and an ET culture. How do you define if the message being told is the truth and nothing but the truth so help you god.? "now lay quiet while I use my anal probe" :) I mean, the huge chasm between ETs cultural truths only lies within what one conceives to be the ET truth. >The ET's If we can consider ETs are studying us for the betterment of the human race as most abductees and contactees are told. Then they the ETs have their own truths their own agenda for doing what they do, this is their truth but is it the truth.? >and we who are studying the contactee's message are >trying to do the very same thing. >So our language, our minds and >our credulity are going to be stretched beyond anything else in >our experience. There are many researchers with a tendency to believe readily who honor all and every ET experience, good on you for being so expectable. But don't get the shits when other researchers looking for hard evidence ask you for physical proof and for you to prove what you've been told is the truth. Some know I have had my share of experiences and like most abductees I have stories to tell. But personally I'm not happy with the lack of physical evidence I have to prove my case. In saying this I personally know what is happening to me is my truth, my life and I now go into an experience with an agenda, a personal challenge to bring back some kind of physical proof. I have to laugh about my first attempt, a lady in her 50s was onboard we sat side by side I looked at her she had her handbag with her. I thought wow! she's got her bag, I asked do you have a pen! a pen!. She fumbled through her bag found a pen. I wrote my phone number on her arm and she hers on mine and told her to call me when she got home. When I got back I looked at my arm, bugger no phone number drat. I waited all day hopping she might call, but nopp no call, "maybe next time". >2. There is a tendency to approach this task using the tools of >"science". I think we should be using the tools of "philosophy". We should use the tools of philosophy, hum very interesting and which kind of philosophical theory do we base our investigations on? >Here is just one reason why: Science education (and indeed all >education except perhaps philosophy) is focused on what we >"know" (or think we know). It says almost nothing about what we >do not know (our ignorance), and so gives us an altogether >disproportiopnate notion of the relative size of these two >domains. This breeds a form of ignorant arrogance. I know. I've >been there. Martin you're no longer ignorant or arrogant ;) wow what happened? >3. For all sorts of reasons, we absorb the notion that we are >entitled to "instant or easy answers". In the field of ET/human >interaction this may just not be possible. The instant or easy >answers may be total gibberish to us. >4. There are numerous ways of testing the value of a contactee, >but "consistency" with our notions of reality should not be one >of them. This depends on the primer you use to test these consistencies. Unfortunately there are less contactees in our time, sorry I'm not having a dig at your age Martin. Fortunately for me I fit in more with the abductees set, but hang a minute " we tell you less" according your wife Sheryl. Strange if you think like this why do you & Sheryl hold abduction support group meetings? ******************************************** Diane Harrison/Frola The Australian UFO Researcher Network http://www.auforn.com P.O Box 738 Beaudesert, 4285
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 03:24:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:42:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? - Shell >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 15:20:34 -0700 >Subject: Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? <snip> >If life is discovered on Jupiter, will I quit smoking? Probably >not. I fail to make the connection. You have to understand a particular mindset, Larry. Rev. Jerry Falwell has categorically said there is no life anywhere else in the universe. Why? Because it is not mentioned in the Bible, and if it existed it would be. If life is found elsewhere in the universe it will be a major problem for Rev. Jerry and his followers. Intelligent life is an even bigger problem for "fundamentalists", because intelligent life elsewhere could not know Jesus, and therefore would automatically be condemned to hell.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 Re: Nick Redfern Ahead Of The Pack - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 10:29:19 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:44:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Redfern Ahead Of The Pack - Bourdais >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:40:49 EDT >Subject: Re: Nick Redfern Ahead Of The Pack >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:28:25 +0200 >>Subject: Re: Nick Redfern Ahead Of The Pack >>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 00:43:12 EDT >>>Subject: Nick Redfern Ahead Of The Pack >>>http://tinyurl.com/czy3g >>>I'm glad on several fronts that this story about Japan's occupation of China has hit the mainstream news. >>>I have several friends who are tied in heavily with this >>>story and major events in China. >>>Nick's recent book focuses on the horrific cruelties >>>perpetrated on the Chinese during WWII especially the >>infamous >>>Unit 731. >>Which have nothing to do with Roswell, and certainly don't put >>him "ahead of the pack". See my post of July 16, "More questions >>on Body Snatchers". >'Scuse me, but who mentioned anything about Roswell? >Where do you pull this stuff out of? I'm talking about the >Japanese occupation of China _not_ Roswell. >Do me and humanity a favor and stay off my side. When you announce that Redfern is "ahead of the pack", I assume, with my limited intellect, that you are refering to his book on Roswell, in which he made the absurd claim that the American military had picked prisoners at Unit 731 for some sinister experiments in the United States.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 Cumbria Falls Off The Intergalactic UFO Map From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:18:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:18:25 -0400 Subject: Cumbria Falls Off The Intergalactic UFO Map Source: The Daily Telegraph - London http://tinyurl.com/a29hc 09/08/2005 Cumbria Falls Off The Intergalactic UFO Map By Neil Tweedie It is three o'clock in the morning and you are driving along a deserted country road towards Cockermouth. Suddenly, a beam of brilliant white light bars the way. Your engine fails and the dog begins to whine. Four hours disappear and you awake to find a strange orange tan covering the right side of your face. Over the next few weeks, you notice men in black suits hiding in the begonias. It's time to ring British UFO Hunters (Cumbria Branch). But hurry, because if they don't get a call soon they're going to pack it in. ET, it appears, has had enough of Cumbria. If there is a rosette system in the Alpha Centauri tourist board Guide to Earth, Cumbria obviously isn't getting any. Chris Parr, the Whitehaven-based co-ordinator for Bufoh, warned yesterday that he and his helpers will have to call it a day if the decline in sightings experienced over the past few years continues for much longer. "In Cumbria we have gone from 60 UFO sightings in 2003 to 40 in 2004 and none at all this year," he lamented. "It means that the number of people keeping their eyes on the skies is greatly diminished. There are only a handful of us now. "We are a dying breed in this part of the country. I put it down to the end of the X-Files, a lack of military exercises in the area that would produce UFO sightings and a lack of strange phenomena." Mr Parr has tried to keep the extraterrestrial flame alive. He has three camcorders and whips them out whenever he hears of sightings elsewhere in the country in the hope that the flying saucer in question takes a wrong turn up the M6. But it never does. He doesn't exactly sell his subject, though. About 90 per cent of sightings, he says, are due to nocturnal military activity. As the Royal Air Force now sports about four aircraft, the decrease in sightings is understandable. The decline in British Ufology was illustrated last year by the closure of the Yorkshire-based UFO Magazine, which regaled its readers with tales of alien abduction, alien cattle mutilation and alien implants (or iron filings as they are known on Earth). The end of Cold War paranoia and an increase in the quality of bi-focals are among the reasons cited for the fall in the number of Ufologists. But the picture is not entirely bleak. Over in Filey is the other branch of Bufoh, and business is brisk. Russ Kellett, the chief researcher at Filey, is enjoying what ufologists call a flap. The skies above the resort are seemingly crammed full of strange craft. "We had two triangles appear straight out of the North Sea," said Mr Kellett. "There have been a number of bright lights seen." Could that be the local Butlins? Mr Kellett has enjoyed two close encounters himself. In the second, figures appeared out of his bedroom wall. "We call them shadow people," he explained.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 'Explaining Vivid Memories Of Martian Kidnappers' From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:27:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:27:42 -0400 Subject: 'Explaining Vivid Memories Of Martian Kidnappers' Source: The New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/09/health/09alien.html August 9, 2005 Books on Science Explaining Those Vivid Memories Of Martian Kidnappers "Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped by Aliens," by Susan Clancy. Harvard University Press, $22.95. People who have memories of being abducted by aliens become hardened skeptics, of a kind. They dismiss the procession of scientists who explain away the memories as illusions or fantasy. They scoff at talk about hypnosis or the unconscious processing of Hollywood scripts. And they hold their ground amid snickers from a public that thinks that they are daft or psychotic. They are neither, it turns out, and their experiences should be taken as seriously as any strongly held exotic beliefs, according to Susan Clancy, a Harvard psychologist who interviewed dozens of self-described abductees as part of a series of memory studies over the last several years. In her book "Abducted," due in October, Dr. Clancy, a psychologist at Harvard, manages to refute and defend these believers, and along the way provide a discussion of current research into memory, emotion and culture that renders abduction stories understandable, if not believable. Although it focuses on abduction memories, the book hints at a larger ambition, to explain the psychology of transformative experiences, whether supposed abductions, conversions or divine visitations. "Understanding why people believe weird things is important for anyone who wishes to know more about people - that is, humans in general," she writes. Dr. Clancy's accounting for abduction memories starts with an odd but not uncommon experience called sleep paralysis. While in light dream-rich REM sleep, people will in rare cases wake up for a few moments and find themselves unable to move. Psychologists estimate that about a fifth of people will have that experience at least once, during which some 5 percent will be bathed in terrifying sensations like buzzing, full-body electrical quivers, a feeling of levitation, at times accompanied by hallucinations of intruders. Some of them must have an explanation as exotic as the surreal nature of the experience itself. Although no one has studied this group systematically, Dr. Clancy suggests based on her interviews, that they tend to be people who already have some interest in the paranormal, mystical arts and the possibility of extraterrestrial visitors. Often enough, their search for meaning lands them in the care of a therapist who uses hypnotism to elicit more details of their dreamlike experiences. Hypnotism is a state of deep relaxation, when people become highly prone to suggestion, psychologists find. When encouraged under hypnosis to imagine a vivid but entirely concocted incident - like being awakened by loud noises - people are more likely later to claim the scene as a real experience, studies find. Where, exactly, do the green figures with the wraparound eyes come from? From the deep well of pop culture, Dr. Clancy argues, based on a review of the history of U.F.O. sightings, popular movies and television programs on aliens. The first "abduction" in the United States was dramatized in 1953, in the movie "Invaders From Mars," she writes, and a rash of abduction reports followed this and other works on aliens, including the television series "The Outer Limits." One such report, by a couple from New Hampshire, Betty and Barney Hill, followed by days a particularly evocative episode of the show in 1961. Mr. Hill's description of the aliens - with big heads and shiny wraparound eyes - was featured in a best- selling book about the experience, and inspired the alien forms in Steven Spielberg's "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" in 1977, according to Dr. Clancy. Thus does life imitate art, and vice versa, in a narrative hall of mirrors in which scenes and even dialogues are recycled. Although they are distinct in details, abduction narratives are extremely similar in broad outline and often include experimentation with a sexual or procreative subtext. "Oh! And he's opening my shirt, and - he's going to put that thing in my navel," says one 1970's narrative, referring to a needle. "I can feel them moving that thing around in my stomach, in my body," the narrative, excerpted in the book, continues. The passage echoes other abduction accounts, past and future. In a laboratory study in 2002, Dr. Clancy and another Harvard psychologist, Richard McNally, gave self-described abductees a standardized word-association test intended to measure proneness to false-memory creation. The participants studied lists of words that were related to one another - "sugar," "candy," "sour," "bitter" - and to another word that was not on the list, in this case, "sweet." When asked to recall the word lists, those with abduction memories were more likely than a group of peers who had no such memories to falsely recall the unlisted word. The findings suggest a susceptibility to what are called source errors, misattributing sources of remembered information by, say, confusing a scene from a barely remembered movie with a dream. In another experiment, the researchers found that recalling abduction memories prompted physiological changes in blood pressure and sweat-gland activity that were higher than those seen in post-traumatic stress syndrome. The memories produced intense emotional trauma, and each time that occurs it deepens the certainty that something profound really did happen. Although no one of those elements - sleep paralysis, interest in the paranormal, hypnotherapy, memory tricks or emotional investment - is necessary or sufficient to create abduction memories, they tend to cluster together in self-described abductees, Dr. Clancy finds. "In the past, researchers have tended to concentrate on one or another" factor, she said in an interview. "I'm saying they all play a role." Yet abduction narratives often have another, less explicit, dimension that Dr. Clancy suspects may be central to their power. Consider this comment, from a study participant whom Dr. Clancy calls Jan, a middle-age divorc=E9e engaged in a quest for personal understanding: "You know, they do walk among us on earth. They have to transform first into a physical body, which is very painful for them. But they do it out of love. They are here to tell us that we're all interconnected in some way. Everything is." At a basic level, Dr. Clancy concludes, alien abduction stories give people meaning, a way to comprehend the many odd and dispiriting things that buffet any life, as well as a deep sense that they are not alone in the universe. In this sense, abduction memories are like transcendent religious visions, scary and yet somehow comforting and, at some personal psychological level, true. Dr. Clancy said she regretted not having asked the abductees she interviewed about religious beliefs, which were not a part of her original research. The reader may regret that, too. The warmth, awe and emotion of abduction stories and of those who tell them betray strong spiritual currents that will be familiar to millions of people whose internal lives are animated by religious imagery.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 'Dragons' In The Tibet Sky From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:39:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:39:35 -0400 Subject: 'Dragons' In The Tibet Sky Source: The Epoch Times - New York http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-8-7/31030.html [with images] Aug 07, 2005 Dragons In The Tibet Sky The Epoch Times A photo of two peculiar dragon-shaped objects taken from a plane flying over Tibet's Himalayas piqued many users' interest when displayed on a Chinese website. The photographer is an amateur. On June 22, 2004, the photographer went to Tibet's Amdo region to attend the Qinghai-to-Xizang Railroad laying ceremony, and then took a plane from Lhasa to fly back inland. When flying over the Himalaya's, he accidentally caught these two 'dragons' in a picture that he took. He called these two objects "the Tibet dragons." Looking at the photo, these two objects appear to have the characteristics of crawling creatures: The bodies seem to be covered by scales, the backs have spine-like protuberances, and also they have gradually thinning rear ends. Although the photo caught only a portion of the entire scene, it was sufficient create the appearance of two gigantic dragons flying in the clouds. This photo, shown on some websites such as post.baidu.com and other forums, aroused the website visitors' curiosity. One person commented, "No wonder that China is the homeland of the dragon! Nature is truly mysterious and powerful, it can always produce spectacular sights beyond people's expectations." "Is it really true? Is it possible there is an ancient civilization that we don't know about is preserved in places that are sparsely populated?" "It really looks like the dragons in fables, and I really hope it is." Certainly, most website visitors hoped that someone could confirm the authenticity of the dragons in the photo. In Chinese fairy tales, the dragon is a kind of rare heavenly creature. Fables say that it can conceal or reveal itself. It ascends to heaven in the spring breeze and dives and hides in deep water in the autumn wind. It can promote clouds and bring about rain. It also became the symbol of imperial authority later on; all emperors of previous dynasties self-designated as dragons, utensils were also decorated with dragons. Culturally, the dragon is the Chinese ancestors' totem. Nearly all races in China had fables and stories with dragons as the main subject, such as dragon boat races, the dragon lantern dance to celebrate holidays, sacrificial offerings to the dragons to implore timely wind and rain for good crops. Whether this kind of creature really exists is still an unsolved riddle. In the previous dynasties in China, there had been many documents recording eyewitness accounts of magical dragons. The most amazing events are the various "falling dragons," dragons that suddenly fell to the ground under peculiar circumstances, and were witnessed by many. A relatively recent tale occurred in the puppet Manchuria regime in August, 1944. A black dragon fell to the ground at the Chen Family's Weizi Village, about 9.4 miles northwest of Zhaoyuan County, on the south shore of the Mudan River (the old name of a section of Songhua River) in Heilongjiang province. The black dragon was on the verge of death. The eyewitness said that this creature had a horn on its head, scales covering its body, and had a strong fishy smell that attracted numerous flies. The records from previous dynasties also mentioned the connection between the emergence of these kinds of mysterious creatures, "dragons," and the transition of dynasties on earth. The appearance of Tibet's magical dragon invites our curiosity
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 Three Cows Found Dead In Viedma Argentina From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:01:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:44:43 -0400 Subject: Three Cows Found Dead In Viedma Argentina INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology August 8, 2005 ================================================================ Date: 08.06.05 Source: Rio Negro On Line http://rionegro.com.ar/arch200508/05/v05n08.php Argentina: Three Cows Found Dead In Viedma VIEDMA (AV) - The phantom of the so-called "Chupacabras" has reappeared. Three bovines were found dead in a very spectacular and similar manner in two fields of the Cubanea and San Javier regions some 70 kilometers from Viedma. Rumors about these discoveries circulated in the area until they reached the ears of the San Javier police, which faced with the magnitude of the situation, decided to intervene to calm the situation. It was thus that a group of officers, accompanied by veterinarian personnel and photographers, visited the respective scenes. Minutes were ultimately drafted regarding the situation. A total of three cows were found in two different properties. In one of them, belonging to Erberto Malaspina, Development Commissioner for Cubanea, two of the bovines appeared 50 meters distant from each other. The third was found in a field located some 20 kilometers from the former and was the property of Oscar Garrone. Both are cattlemen and knowledgeable in the field, hence their surprise at finding their animals in these conditions. Malaspina's field is located on the side of National Route 250 which links Viedma with Conesa at Kilometer 17. The other property is located some 20 kilometers from the first in the direction of Viedma in the San Javier area. According to the cattlemen, the animals found present similar characteristics not only for the incisions made, but by the elements lacking in all three: eyes, ears, tongue, jawbone and genitalia. No signs of bleeding were detected in any of the cases nor indications of tearing in the missing parts of the body that indicate predator activity. Nor were there any signs suggesting that the animals were slain to use their meat, as is the case with poaching. Furthermore, this possibility was dismissed because the bovines were in mid- field, far from any road, and in areas where no quick entry or exit is possible. It is estimated that they died some 9 days ago, but according to the cattlemen, when they found the carcasses it was noticed that the mutilations had been recent.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:21:18 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:53:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Reynolds >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:54:03 EDT >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 11:06:50 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 01:06:16 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch <snip> Brad: Since Nick is out of UFO UpDate range for the rest of the month, perhaps I can ask a question - on his behalf..... What if his "disinfo" people or "whistleblowers" or "leakers" just have access to part of what was going on in New Mexico for the time-frame in question? That is, perhaps Redfern's "agents" were actually trying to create confusion and sow disinformation. But were they and their bosses privy to all the secret stuff going on in and near Roswell during the mid-forties? Redfern may have caught the attention of a certain disinfo cadre, that wanted to spread the Fugo balloon scenario, for whatever obtuse reason. Yet, couldn't there have been other projects that got disinfo agents to partake, while oblivious to parallel disinfo attempts which they had no idea about? And couldn't Redfern have been set up by his codgers, while another group was working on Friedman et alia? Neither group knowing that they had counterparts salvaging their secret project(s)? Thus all the confusion and illogical machinations that have sprung forth. And what if Redfern's senior citizens are only acting at the behest of a person or group that wants the Fugo experiment brought forward because it was an egregious foray into
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Miller From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 15:32:25 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:55:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Miller >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:54:03 EDT >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 11:06:50 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 01:06:16 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch <snip> Brad Are you completely off your trolley? The guy's just told you that he has unsubscribed for a few weeks to go back to England to see his seriously ill mother. Does that make any impression on you at all? No. You just charge along, head down like some demented bull terrier, carrying on with the complete and utter garbage you've been trotting out over the past two weeks or so, having now delved into the world of complete fantasy with so may "perhaps" and "maybe's" and "they might have's" that it's gone beyond a joke. So how come you know so much about how the disinfo world works? There's only three ways; you were in it yourself, somebody's told you, or you've worked it out for yourself. Whichever option it is Brad, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. And what about your research into this subject? Any chance of a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 Re: Interesting UFO Tidbit - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:14:36 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:59:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Interesting UFO Tidbit - Ledger >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 13:58:25 -0300 >Subject: Interesting UFO Tidbit >Dear List: >As an item of interest, I thought I would pass on something I >learned in a conversation with one of my brothers after I bumped >into him while shopping in the mall yesterday. He first told me >that he had gone to Halifax, Nova Scotia recently to purchase a >car and I said to him that I was in Halifax myself not all that >long ago - speaking at a UFO symposium. This brought us on to >the UFO subject and he proceeded to tell me about an experience >he had some time back - an experience that I did not know about. >I was familiar with sightings that other members of my family >had over the years but was completely unaware of this one. >It was approximately 20 years ago, he said, and took place >after midnight when he and a girl he was with left a dance hall >in Dominion, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia <snip> >I just thought I'd pass it on, just for interest's sake! Extremely interesting, Gene. How come it took so long for your brother to share this with you? My personal files for Atlantic Canada show a droppout of UFO reports from 1980 to 1986. Can he pin down the date more accurately. I'm assuming late Spring to early Fall [May to first October] of 1985 as a time frame. Any other time of the year in the evening would indicate true dedication to the art of 'frolicing in the grass' in this
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 Re: Contactee Taboo - Deardorff From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 09:02:24 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:01:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Deardorff >From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:22:13 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:21:39 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 16:50:15 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo ><snip>> >>The upshot is the conclusion that the ETI in charge don't want >>to be responsible for bringing about the collapse of Western >>societies and institutions. Corolaries are that they're spending >>a lot of attention on us, they take a long range view of things, >>and their ethical level seems OK relative to society as a whole. >>I suppose they do contact scientists from time to time, but that >>most all of them don't want to ruin their careers by speaking >>out. >Your views are not anathema to me. >But the practical result(s) of what you relate seem long in >coming, maybe not in the great scheme of things but in real >time-frames. Rich, We have a half century of UFO data to look at and analyze, amd there's a lot of practical information there. It supports the view that the UFO aliens are intelligent and have been employing a strategy in dealing with us. Yes, it took us a long time to realize this. >This reminds me of Jesus saying "This generation will not pass >away before these things come to pass." >Well, that generation. and many more, have come and gone, yet >no denouement, of any kind. Remember the refrain: "It ain't necessarily true." The New Testament Gospels have an especially low fraction of verses in them that represent the true teachings rather than words put into the man's mouth by the Gospel writers. The verse you quote is one of the distortions (See www.tjresearch.info/mt24.htm#Mt24.34.) It's like a youngster getting educated. After getting through grade school, there's no sudden revelation of what life's all about. After getting through high school, still no denouement. After college, still no denouement. There's always more to learn. The UFO phenomenon is no exception; it has many levels of complexity. The UFO aliens have been giving us lots of time to learn about their existence, presence, variety, technical capabilities, psychic abilities, creativity, ethical levels, etc. Why flunk the course? >Conditioning human beings, so as not to disrupt societial >constructs is sure taking a long time, for beings endowed as >you propose. It's how we're endowed that requires the long, long time. >The delay in showing themselves or their grand plan mitigates >against their reality.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 'Contactee' Ederman's Exopolitics Institute's From: Michael salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:22:58 -1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:08:00 -0400 Subject: 'Contactee' Ederman's Exopolitics Institute's >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 18:53:26 +0200 >Subject: Re: 'Contactee' Ederman's Exopolitics Institute's First Event >>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 11:34:05 -0700 >>Subject: 'Contactee' Ederman's Exopolitics Institute's First Event <snip>> >To All, >I am sorry to have to warn everybody about Jean Ederman, alias >Eric Julien. I am not the best qualified to talk about him here >in France, but I did meet him several times a couple of years >ago. He presented himself as Eric Julien, and I had a good first >contact. >He was developping an impressive theory on three-dimensional >time, and of UFO propulsion using these dimensions somehow, but >I am not a physicist and and I am easy to impress in that field. >We were a small, interested, group and we had further contacts. >However, doubt began to appear between us, especially when he >wanted to collect money for a vast project to build a flying >saucer! He wanted me to write a book on him, without autor's >fee. >I submitted his theory (very well presented, by the way) to some >physicists, who expressed strong doubts, whereupon I decided to >distance myself from him. Later, I heard that he was making more >and more extraordinary claims of being contacted, of being taken >aboard an alien ship to learn how to pilot it (in fact, he is >pilot). >He disappeared, and reappeared in very bizarre circumstances. >Some early supporters then began to denounce him publicly as a >fraud. I don't know the details, being no longer interested at >all, but I feel I have a responsbility here to warn everyone who >cares to listen. >In my opinion, this is a very, very dubious case, to say the >least. Aloha Gildas, Thanks for sharing your thoughts about your early experiences with Eric Julien (aka Jean Ederman). I think it always important to keep an open mind with exotic physics theories such as extraterrestrial propulsion and "time density" especially given the heated debates among physicists over new theories. As far as I'm aware, all that Eric has publically claimed so far is having had a variety of extraterrestrial related experiences that inspired his theories concerning time density and extraterrestrial propulsion systems, and communications with ETs. Some find his theories dubious but that has not been the universal response from French experts as I will demonstrate below. I suggest that it is premature to conclude anything about him until having properly evaluated his recent book La Science Des Extraterrestres which came out in July, 2005. At approx 450 pages with numerous illustrations and accompanying explanations, this is not a book to be dismissed lightly, and deserves a fair hearing from the French scientific community who are best placed to initially respond to it since translations into other languages have not yet been completed. For the record, let me repeat that Eric has a number of qualifications in the aviation industry and they are available online at: http://www.exopoliticsinstitute.org/Institute-EricJulien-home.htm. Eric worked as an air traffic controller for the French Airforce where he claims to have tracked a UFO on radar. He continued to have a number of UFO/ET related experiences which are recorded in the following 2002 article which you probably have read: http://quanthomme.free.fr/energieencore/anglaisericjulien.htm Shortly after further ET related experiences he left a senior position as an Airport Senior Manager to devote himself full time to the study and exploration of these ET related experiences. This is not an easy thing to do for any professional and to me suggests some kind of transformative event that sparked his bold decision. From my own personal experiences, Eric strikes me as someone who has great integrity and is not in any way seeking to establish any kind of personality cult. Eric is currenly visiting Hawaii and is a guest in my home in preparation for his forthcoming seminar on Aug 15. He has not yet discussed with me stories about him piloting extraterrestial ships which were circulated after his disappearance in March 2004. As far as Eric piloting Arcturian starships, that is something Mike Jamieson has mistakenly attributed to Eric since as far as I'm aware of Eric has not publically commented on this. Eric has claimed to me that he spent a night on an extraterrestial vehicle, and as a result of what he experienced, he had to travel to the French Island of Reunion to write about it. That is the background to his bizarre disappearance and recent reemergence. Eric subsequently has written his book describing extraterrestrial technologies, and is working on another book describing his contact experiences. The published book has been reviewed by a former prominent critic of Eric's earlier work, a tenured Mathematics professor who uses the internet pseudonym 'Pacusser' (real name known), who suggested that some plagiarism had occured with Eric's earlier work. This is what Pacusser concluded about reading Eric's book which forced him to reconsider his earlier views about Eric's theories: "All those who know his work over the 3D time and the various critics which have followed from there will know what I mean when I say that strong disagreements relating to his remarks over 3D time (note : 3D time source) opposed Eric Julien and me. Indeed, after research I had realized that other Russian scientists (Kozyrev, Bartini, Veinik, Chernobrov whose names had been quoted variously here on the forums and by other people) had already worked on theories of time with variable density, and had had ideas of application to paranormal phenomena (telepathy). All this had led me to conclude that the work of Eric Julien on the subject was simple embroidery around works which were not his, and I had largely expressed myself on this subject here. He has then defended his view after several months of absence and obviously it reigned a certain tension between us. Despite this situation, he proposed to me very cordially to give my impression to him on his work. Other people still produced various theories having common points with the fractal time and its variable density of which I did not know works before having read them in "the ET's Science" (whose references lead for example to the website of Dr. Garnier-Malet in which work on the doubling theory is close to certain things that Eric Julien states and of which he uses to formulate a part of his theory in scientific language). In fact, at the end, there was a rain a various critics which has fallen on his work because, for different points, it partially was like things which were already made here and there, and since Eric Julien did not put any reference to this various other works, one was allowed to ask questions and to be suspicious. Then... will you say to me, why the book has interest ? Quite simply because by reading it in detail (and I dissected it line by line, it took time : I have done it as a drudge ant) one realizes very well that finally the elements which he used and which are not from him would be like accompaniments of a piece of music : they exist apart from the piece itself, can be useful and sometimes essential for the listening of the piece, sometimes they are simply used as pleasures, but in fact they are far from being the heart of the piece itself. There is therefore no plagiarism of the authors I spoke about. (one should recognize to be in the wrong when one must respect the truth). The author of the theory of "absolute relativity" (expression of Eric Julien) openly speaks about the various participants who studied the time nature, in this work, and works of which were used by him as examples or simply which have common points and which confirm several points of his theory. In the same time, one can see how these works are a partial vision of the whole by a small end of the spyglass vis-a-vis to the coherence which emerges from his work. It is a theory, of which the experimental proof remains to be produced, but for which precisely experimental works of the various precursors has already been made as previous evidences, and are confirmations from originators of ideas having different oriented minds." http://www.exopoliticsinstitute.org/Institute-Eric-Julien-bookcritique-En.doc For the French version please go to: http://www.erenouvelle.com/newsejul.php In conclusion, I consider it premature to evaluate Eric's case simply because data is still being collected on his experiences and Eric has still not fully clarified events that occurred on the night of and subsequent to his disappearance. I personally find Eric to have much credibility and is a case worth seriously considering. I have earlier written that I find his accounts of communications with extraterrestrials to be highly credible (see http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-7.htm. However, I am yet to form an opinion on his claimed extraterrestial contacts simply because I don't have sufficient data to conclude anything. This is a case I'm still investigating and I don't think it wise to jump to conclusions especially when Eric's book is still being evaluated and has led to former criticis changing their positions. By the way, I will be travelling to Calabria, Italy to Dr Pinotto's Ufology and Exopolitics Conference on Oct 7-9, and look forward to meeting with you there.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 UFO E-Book Publishing From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:52:09 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:42:36 -0400 Subject: UFO E-Book Publishing UFODATA Electronic Bookstore The UFO subject is one of the most controversial subjects you could imagine, it is just as controversial here in Leeds as it is in Outer Mongolia or the North Pole. The greatest three pronged question is asked the world over. 'Who are we? What are we? and Where are we from?' Scientists and scholars the world over have pondered those three little questions for a millennia, some claim to have answers but like many others before them it seems to be personal opinion and not proven facts that are relied upon for answers. Scientific papers, peer reviewed articles and publication into the orthodox world costs thousands of pounds worth of funding with no guarantees of reward at the end of what can be sometimes a lifetimes work. Such is the world of publishing. To get a book published you have to have an agent and to get an agent you need to have had a book published or so it must seem to hundreds of researchers and writers who have manuscripts that deserve publication, information that deserves an outlet and hundreds of hours of research and results that are stuck on a shelf not getting the exposure they deserve. Well UFODATA has an answer for all of you that have your work caught up in the 'looking for an agent' trap. We here at UFODATA have been involved around the publishing game for some time now and we know the difficulties that face first time and even accomplished authors to get their hard work into print. Here's where we can help. We have online our own e-book & CD-book publishing department. An ever growing selection of titles are being made available to us for electronic download or direct purchase on CD-Rom by way of a simple but effective publishing agreement between publisher and writer. In the publishing world, even when you have your title in print publishers and agents can make it seem like forever before the writer sees any financial reward for their (now out of their control) hard work. Sometimes first pay cheques are not received until 12 months after the launch of the title, you might get a small advance (first time writers rarely do) but of course all that has to be clawed back before any other royalties end up in the authors bank account, that's the way it is and has been for many years. Not now. All you need to do is forward your work, electronically to us at UFODATA. We will layout the pages and place all images etc in e- book format, we can create a cover if this has not already been done and display the title with any reviews and a synopsis, along with a short sample of the text in our electronic book store. If a reader wishes to purchase the title they can either buy an electronic download or order a CD-Rom version for delivery to their home. The site is fully secure and downloads can't be made until payment is made. Every month we will furnish the author with a statement of sales of their particular title and arrange electronic transfer of their earnings into their account. It is as simple as that. Of course there is an agreement to sign between the two parties, nothing too scary but in essence it is a release cover for any images that might be used and also covers the responsibility and liability of the author and his work. We also promise to inform via our own literary agency publishers of how our e-titles are selling and look into getting a publishing deal for our clients. Any arrangements between UFO DATA and an author can be terminated by giving six months notice or by mutual agreement between parties. UFODATA reserve the right to remove any libellous, illegal or unsuitable material from their system without notice or compensation to the author. So down to business. If you are in possession of any manuscripts or working on any titles UFO and Alien related and are interested in our offer please contact me Russel Callaghan russ.nul In writing at UFODATA PO BOX 280 LEEDS LS26 1AN UK All submissions can be accepted in the following electronic formats. Plain text, Rich text, MS Word. Remember we need to be able to format and page set your work. We also ask that any images are referenced i.e. to the author or place of origin and inform you that we will need permission from the owner if required to publish their image in your book. There are lots of great titles stuck in drawers around the world awaiting discovery. UFODATA can help you the author realise your dreams. Our catalogue will be sent out to ever growing mailing lists and our bookstore will be linked to some prestigious website and advertised in the worlds UFO and related press. We will also feature interviews with our authors on our web based radio station 'Talk UFO' All you have to do submit your work. Our pricing structure means that e-books and cd-books are very affordable and collectable. And by you the author sharing your work with our experience and technical environment we hope to reward you for your hard work. E-books will be priced from as little as =A32.99 and a 30% commission is paid directly to the author.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 9 Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:02:12 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 21:35:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch - Sparks >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:21:18 -0500 >Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:54:03 EDT >>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>>From: Nick Redfern <nick.redfern.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 11:06:50 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch >>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 01:06:16 EDT >>>>Subject: Re: Debris At The Foster Ranch <snip> >Brad: >Since Nick is out of UFO UpDate range for the rest of the month, >perhaps I can ask a question - on his behalf..... >What if his "disinfo" people or "whistleblowers" or "leakers" >just have access to part of what was going on in New Mexico for >the time-frame in question? >That is, perhaps Redfern's "agents" were actually trying to >create confusion and sow disinformation. But were they and their >bosses privy to all the secret stuff going on in and near >Roswell during the mid-forties? >Redfern may have caught the attention of a certain disinfo >cadre, that wanted to spread the Fugo balloon scenario, for >whatever obtuse reason. >Yet, couldn't there have been other projects that got disinfo >agents to partake, while oblivious to parallel disinfo attempts >which they had no idea about? >And couldn't Redfern have been set up by his codgers, while another >group was working on Friedman et alia? Neither group knowing that >they had counterparts salvaging their secret project(s)? >Thus all the confusion and illogical machinations that have >sprung forth. >And what if Redfern's senior citizens are only acting at the >behest of a person or group that wants the Fugo experiment >brought forward because it was an egregious foray into >inhumanities that this group or person thinks should be punished
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: Interesting UFO Tidbit - Frison From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:18:38 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:32:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Interesting UFO Tidbit - Frison >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:14:36 -0300 >Subject: Re: Interesting UFO Tidbit >Extremely interesting, Gene. How come it took so long for your >brother to share this with you? My personal files for Atlantic >Canada show a droppout of UFO reports from 1980 to 1986. >Can he pin down the date more accurately. I'm assuming late >Spring to early Fall [May to first October] of 1985 as a time >frame. Any other time of the year in the evening would indicate >true dedication to the art of 'frolicing in the grass' in this >neck of the woods..... Although he lives in Sydney and I live in Glace Bay (a twenty minute drive), my brother and I are not particularly close. It's not unusual for two or three years to pass without us speaking to each other. When we do, it's usually only for a short time - I bump into him in the mall, or when getting a coffee, or the odd time when he goes to visit my mother at the same time I do. UFO's don't have a place on the agenda during the usual small talk. He didn't even know I was really interested in UFO's or that I was a member of MUFON for five years. At one point, he said he never told anyone about it because he thought nobody would believe him and they'd just think he was crazy. When I mentioned being in Halifax (Dartmouth) to speak at the UFO symposium, it got him onto the subject. If I wouldn't have mentioned UFO's he wouldn't have went near the subject, and I still wouldn't know about his sighting. I'll pump him for more detail regarding the exact time of year, as well as approximately what year it occurred during. You can't be too far wrong about the time of year though - nocturnal field sports are definitely seasonal in Dominion, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. He feels it was around the time I was living in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan (which would be starting in 1989) or during the three years prior to that when I was not living in Nova Scotia but in various provinces throughout Canada - he feels it was more likely at the earliest point in the period I was outside Nova Scotia (which would be from early January 1986 on). Probably that spring (1986) was his best guess, without trying hard to remember something that would be linked to around the time he was involved with that girl. It occurring when I was out of Nova Scotia for several years might be another factor why I never heard about it - didn't see him again until years after he pretty well forgot about it, and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: 'Contactee' Ederman's Exopolitics Institute's From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:13:02 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:36:14 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Contactee' Ederman's Exopolitics Institute's >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:22:58 -1000 >Subject: Re: 'Contactee' Ederman's Exopolitics Institute's First Event >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 18:53:26 +0200 >>Subject: Re: 'Contactee' Ederman's Exopolitics Institute's First Event >>>From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 11:34:05 -0700 >>>Subject: 'Contactee' Ederman's Exopolitics Institute's First Event ><snip> >>To All, >>I am sorry to have to warn everybody about Jean Ederman, alias >>Eric Julien. I am not the best qualified to talk about him here >>in France, but I did meet him several times a couple of years >>ago. He presented himself as Eric Julien, and I had a good first >>contact. >>He was developping an impressive theory on three-dimensional >>time, and of UFO propulsion using these dimensions somehow, but >>I am not a physicist and and I am easy to impress in that field. >>We were a small, interested, group and we had further contacts. >>However, doubt began to appear between us, especially when he >>wanted to collect money for a vast project to build a flying >>saucer! He wanted me to write a book on him, without autor's >>fee. >>I submitted his theory (very well presented, by the way) to some >>physicists, who expressed strong doubts, whereupon I decided to >>distance myself from him. Later, I heard that he was making more >>and more extraordinary claims of being contacted, of being taken >>aboard an alien ship to learn how to pilot it (in fact, he is >>pilot). >>He disappeared, and reappeared in very bizarre circumstances. >>Some early supporters then began to denounce him publicly as a >>fraud. I don't know the details, being no longer interested at >>all, but I feel I have a responsbility here to warn everyone who >>cares to listen. >>In my opinion, this is a very, very dubious case, to say the >>least. >Eric is currenly visiting Hawaii and is a guest in my home in >preparation for his forthcoming seminar on Aug 15. He has not >yet discussed with me stories about him piloting extraterrestial >ships which were circulated after his disappearance in March >2004. As far as Eric piloting Arcturian starships, that is >something Mike Jamieson has mistakenly attributed to Eric since >as far as I'm aware of Eric has not publically commented on >this. Eric has claimed to me that he spent a night on an >extraterrestial vehicle, and as a result of what he experienced, >he had to travel to the French Island of Reunion to write about >it. That is the background to his bizarre disappearance and >recent reemergence. Eric subsequently has written his book >describing extraterrestrial technologies, and is working on >another book describing his contact experiences. The source for the pilot training story is French. (Not Gildas, someone else) And, the history of you all following his long adventure (which Ederman says was only 3 hours, in previous update message passed on by you) , as revealed by peace4contact messages passed on to me, are very revealing in how you all fed into his staged drama. What was "revealed" over in France was that he did simulated remote viewing training before actually boarding the ship for hands on training. Ederman explained (here at updates, via your post) that his three hour (actual) time period missing seemed like a much longer time period (thus explaining why channelers following his mission were explaining a much longer time period). (Of course, this is all explained by the "three dimensions of time" deal Ederman talks about!) >The published book has been reviewed by a former prominent >critic of Eric's earlier work, a tenured Mathematics professor >who uses the internet pseudonym 'Pacusser' (real name known), >who suggested that some plagiarism had occured with Eric's >earlier work. This is what Pacusser concluded about reading >Eric's book which forced him to reconsider his earlier views >about Eric's theories: A young tenured Math professor... who met Eric, was moved by his charisma and "rap". He's seen by my source as a young UFO enthusiast with a bit of a gullible or suggestive bent (Pacusser is who I'm mentioning here). >"All those who know his work over the 3D time and the various >critics which have followed from there will know what I mean >when I say that strong disagreements relating to his remarks >over 3D time (note : 3D time source) opposed Eric Julien and me. >Indeed, after research I had realized that other Russian >scientists (Kozyrev, Bartini, Veinik, Chernobrov whose names had >been quoted variously here on the for >However, I am yet to form an opinion on his claimed >extraterrestial contacts simply because I don't have sufficient >data to conclude anything. This is a case I'm still >investigating and I don't think it wise to jump to conclusions >especially when Eric's book is still being evaluated and has led >to former criticis changing their positions. Why did you put him on your main Board of Directors, in that case? This doesn't help you, imo. (The advisory Board would have been smarter...less of a profile.) A man seen to be making up a story of two (of this nature) is not going to be helpful as a member of the ruling Board. (And, you're saying here you haven't even come to a conclusion about this key matter!) What I have been told is that Eric/Jean is not taken seriously anymore by people on his home front (and, this from folks who did take him seriously some time ago, it seems). Your clearly evident kind nature may come back to bite you in the you know what!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: Contactee Taboo - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:20:19 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:39:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Hall >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Contactee Taboo - Velez >Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:45:15 -0400 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:36:26 -0400 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:50:54 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:51:06 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>>But why take a group of, shall we say, non-credentialed, >>>>individuals when the aliens could do exactly the same thing to a >>>>Carl Sagan or Richard Hall or Jerome Clark, or even you? >Abductions are multi-generational and appear to follow certain >'families' (blood-lines.) That is, if you actually assign a >little weight to the reports of the abductees. The reason why >people are taken probably has more to do with their genetic >make-up than anything else. An unfortunate accident of being >born into a family blood-line that is part of an 'ongoing' >study. If this is in fact the case, and they have tinkered >somehow with the genetics of certain families, then wealth, >fame/status, position, level of education, or any other 'social' >criteria just wouldn't matter to them. <snip> John, As usual, you put it clearly and sensibly. My expression is that 'they' are Equal Opportunity Abductors. And by the way, one of the abductees I have worked with, whom I consider absolutely honest and truthful, told me that she saw me on board one time when she was abducted onto a craft, so maybe they have taken real smart people like me after all. (-;) I have never had any reason to think that I am an abductee, and frankly don't really want to know. My investigations have made it clear that despite a relatively small proportion who want to (or have to for thei mental health) think they are dealing with nice people, being abducted (if it really happens, of course) is a very nasty and negative experience akin to kidnapping and rape by 1masked' criminals. None of my fairly large extnded family
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: UFOs & Crop Formations - Anderson From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:21:09 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:42:05 -0400 Subject: Re: UFOs & Crop Formations - Anderson >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 13:44:16 -0400 >Subject: Re: UFOs & Crop Formations >Although the alien/UFO encounter Lech Chacinski claimed to have >had two years ago this month is an incredible single witness >case, a careful reading of this report only said that "the area >of the encounter is also one where crop circles often appear". >Here in Toronto where we both live, many strange things are also >reported such as a mysterious ice circle on the Don River and a >much more recent UFO sighting by some women from an apartment >near the same river. The temporal and causal connection between >these UFOs and ice/crop circles in both these Canadian and Polish >accounts are wishful thinking or tenuous at best. I would generally agree that there is no proof of a direct connection. >Although Nancy Talbot is an enthusiastic promoter of the UFO >crop circle connection, she is far from a cautious or critical >investigator. Even her personal account of the formation of a >crop circle after seeing a beam of light coming down from the sky >while staying at a friend's home is very suspect since she admits >the curtains were closed in her bedroom at the time! Well, I've known and worked with Nancy since the early 90s and can't agree with this. Enthusiastic, yes, but she is also cautious, I can attest to that. Re her own eyewitness case, please note that the curtains were "thin and gauzy", so yes, the light effects outside could still be seen, especially if as bright as she described. There was also the other witness at the time, not just her. Please also note again the report I just referenced a few days ago in CCCRN News, where the testing results came back about the possible charring of cattle corn stalks from one of the formations near here at Mission, BC. The results were negative, the blackening was only from the Ustilago fungus. It _looks_ like burning, I have my own samples at home here. Phyllis Budinger, who conducted the testing, repeated the tests which initially came back as tentatively positive, to be absolutely sure. After a thorough analysis, she found no carbon residue, so a negative result. Nancy made a point of wanting this information available, ecabuse it was a firm conclusion, regardless of outcome or peoples' prior hopes or expectations. If it had been charring, it would have been the first good documented case of it's kind anywhere, and would have been great promotion for BLT and CCCRN. So yes, Nancy is cautious and critical. I've included the link again here for reference: http://www.bltresearch.com/mission.htm Please also see the current listing of qualified scientific consultants working with BLT: http://www.bltresearch.com/proffcons.html >Finally, the addition in this BLT web site of some very dubious >pictures which can easily be reproduced through multiple/long >exposure photography of Robert Bernatowicz lecture - a person >who claims he can anticipate when and where new crop circles >will form - is simply too much for even an open minded person >like me to accept on faith. Why so hard to believe? I've had my own experiences on occasion of detailed dreams of a formation, usually just a day or two before I first heard _any_ information about that particular formation. Those kind of experiences are not quite as uncommon as some might think, either... I've also had anomalies show up in a number of my own photos (and related video in one case)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? - Bolt From: William Bolt <ab5sy.nul> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:56:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? - Bolt >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 09:21:32 -0400 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Will You Lose Your Religion? >Source: Raiders News Update >http://www.raidersnewsupdate.com/missiontomars2.htm >Wednesday, May 18, 2005 <snip> No... you may discard it, but it will remain awaiting your return. I am not a Minister, nor am I highly educated in religious doctrines, or anything else for that matter. I believe myself to be saved unto God, a devoted follower, (Seventh Day Adventist), faithfully studying daily Gods word and seeking greater understanding of that which God would have me do. But based upon my studies and understanding, I believe the Bible tells us there are other worlds and other creatures of God. Awhhhh... but the 'lip flapper' Jerry Falwell has not studied The Word of God. Sure his ghost writers uses it for reference material to create cue-cards for him, Jerry Falwell's mind vapor- locks whenever he opens his lips concerning the Bible. Falwell, like such others of television's prominent evangelists - for example, Benny Hinn, Joyce Myers, and not to forget the late Dr. Gene Scott, are good at talk'n the talk, but failing measurably at walk'n the walk. So believe but lil' of what they say. The Universe is full of life, created by God. Each life form throughout the cosmos is perfect, without sin. The Bible describes with elegance's how all of creation watches as a great battle unfolds between satan and God, 'Lucifer, who, for a time was God's masterpiece', now finds himself imprisoned upon the Earth. In anger satan corrupted mans nature as a challenge to God authority. Man on rare occasion has glimpsed the forces of good as they draw near to observe him as he struggles to survive his place on this battle field. Man has divided himself into three groups, 'The righteous' followers of God', 'the fallen', now doing Satan's bidding', and last, and of course ; Ufologist, who attempt to ignore and convince themselves the other two camps do not exist. Man, because of his sinful nature, will not be allowed to come into the presence of Gods other created life (E.T.) we are restricted to the Earth until the finale battle is waged and the force capable (if unleashed) of destroying all creation, has it's self been destroyed for all time. So, do E.T. visit the Earth and has man observed them? Yes and yes. Has E.T. enter-acted with man? Yes in the course of their assigned task given by God.. Has man enter-acted with E.T.? NO!. Mans role, as this battle is being waged around him is mental in his observance of the forces of God. Physical only in his struggle to exist. Man is aware of E.T.,and has been since God shared all things with Adam. Many discovered documents, some from which our Bible was arrived, tells us of the existence of other inhabited worlds and of other life forms visiting man and the Earth... but much is not for us to know. Until man has mastered the art of putting on his diaper, God will hold back giving us long legged britches, knowing we most likely would attempt placing our arms in first.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: Charles Hall And Tall Whites At Nellis AFB - From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 16:05:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:05:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Charles Hall And Tall Whites At Nellis AFB - >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 07:12:50 -1000 >Subject: Charles Hall And Tall Whites At Nellis AFB >Source: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-36.htm >Exopolitical Comment # 36 - Further Investigations of Charles >Hall and Tall Whites at Nellis Air Force Base: The David Coote >Interviews >This is to announce the results of a continuing investigation of >Charles Hall's testimony described in his three volume memoirs, >Millennial Hospitality where he recounts his service on Nellis >Air Force base where he met and interacted with Tall White >extraterrestrials who had reached agreements with the US Air >Force to establish a secret base at Indian Springs, Nevada. The >field investigator is David Coote, an airline pilot who, along >with Paola Harris, was responsible for initially making the >Charles Hall case known to the wider UFO community. David has >investigated the testimony of Charles Hall by tracking down and >interviewing three individuals described in the book series. The >purpose of the investigation was to find corroborating evidence >that Charles Hall did serve as a weatherman at Indian Springs; >that incidents described in Millennial Hospitality are accurate; >whether there were sightings of UFOs/extraterrestrials at the >Indian Springs ranges; and any personal recollections about >Charles Hall that would help determine his credibility. <snip> >Conclusions >The results of the interviews with corroborating witnesses offer >evidentiary support for Charles Hall and several of the >incidents described in his books. First, they confirm that >Charles did serve as a weatherman and that he did perform his >duties in an isolated and frightening environment. Witness B >confirmed that Charlie often served alone out on the weather >ranges; and even the Air Police were too frightened to go out on >the ranges. This is conistent with Hall's description of the >high level of anxiety experienced by servicemen over the >unexplainable events on the weather ranges. >Second, Witness C's testimony that he was strictly instructed >not to record UFO sightings on his daily logs offers support for >Charles Hall contention that the Tall Whites frequently flew >their ships in the area of Indian Springs. Witness C recalled >that Hall had told him about 'dirigibles' he had seen in the sky >which confirms that Hall had told others about his UFO sightings >during his service at Nellis Air Force base. Hall describes in >his books numerous instances where he could monitor the large >interstellar ships entering and leaving their secret base >through the theodolite he used for tracking weather balloons. >Third, witness C confirms that as a result of the 'high >strangeness' at the weather station, he had fully abandoned >doing any further service out on station despite possible >punishment by his military superiors. This offers support for >Charles Hall testimony that many preceding and subsequent >servicemen had to abandon their duties due to intimidation from >and fear of the Tall Whites. This combined by Witness B's >recollection of the fear of the Air Police to travel out to the >weather station suggests that the Air Force did not brief the >servicemen about any extraterrestrials thereby helping explain >the 'high strangeness' and fear by many of the servicemen who >served at Indian Springs. >Fourth, witnesses A and B confirmed that the existence of urban >egends such as "Range Four Harry" as a radioactive horse which >.Hall recounts as an inaccurate description of the Tall Whites >when in their protective suits. According to David, "Hall's >explanation was that 'Harry' was a Tall White guard who spent a >lot of time on Range 4, whereas the 'Radioactive horse' was how >a group of Tall Whites would appear at night as they transited >the ranges as a close-knit group in their luminous, protective >suits." >None of the three witnesses could confirm having directly seen >either an extraterrestrial or a UFO while serving with Charles >Hall at Nellis AFB. This may be result of the psychological >impact of unbriefed servicemen encountering UFOs/ETs in an >isolated environment. Certainly the strong reaction from Witness >C in terms of abandoning his duties regardless of punishment >suggests such a psychological impact was evident. My interest in this short article from Dr. Salla is not in corroborating testimony about "Tall Whites" as reported by Charles Hall. Instead, my interest was attracted to the statements that the weather observers in the Indian Springs are were essentially frightened of being outside especially, I presume, at night. The reason this attracted my interest is because this is consistent with part of the testimony of an Air Force Colonel, code name "Hawk," who is the source of Hawk Tales. http://brumac.8k.com/HawkTales If you download the above Word file and move to pages 37 - 40 and page 43 you will find references go Indian Springs (near the National Test Site for atomic weapons and also Area 51). According to Hawk, who worked out there as a seismologist in the 60's, the guards were all afraid of having to be patrolling outside at night in the Indian Springs area. Hawk's testimony, based on interviews conducted nearly 20 years ago, is consistent with the claims of weather observers "A" "B" and "C" as related to the strange "fear" of the area, said fear being explicitly related to UFOs. Hawk states that he was told by a guard that "people disappear" in areas such as this. It seems to me that this opens another area for investigation: interviews of guards and weather observers and anyone else who
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: 'Explaining Vivid Memories Of Martian From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 17:16:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:11:58 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Explaining Vivid Memories Of Martian >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:27:42 -0400 >Subject: UFO UpDate: 'Explaining Vivid Memories Of Martian Kidnappers' >Source: The New York Times >http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/09/health/09alien.html >August 9, 2005 <snip> >"Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped by >Aliens," by Susan Clancy. Harvard University Press, $22.95. As a member of a group who are constantly mis-diagnosed by the psychiatric profession, this strikes a chord with me. I understand Dr. Clancy is a _psychologist_, but a good deal of what I write below about psychiatrists shows up in the presumptions made by psychologists too, so let me rant here for a moment. Psychologists need the same reality check I'm prescribing here for their psychiatric colleauges. The psychiatric profession is never challenged on a key truth about their work. They _never_ have to deal with the messy question as to whether what a patient claims could actually be true. If one tries to present evidence, the psychiatrist always refuses to discuss the evidence. (Substitute 'subject' or 'client' for 'patient', for the psychologists.) While ufologists agonize for decades over the tiniest details of their field, psychiatrists "pull rank" and use their MD status to simply substitute their _personal_ outlook on the issue in question for fact. As a result, they are _not_ "scientific" in their "non-methodology." Yet, they are backed up by the justice system, without question, without exception. The world should refuse to listen to them pontificate as if their personal opinions carry some kind of special weight. Clearly, UFO abductions is not part of _any_ medical or psychology curriculum. Yet, we have seen statements from professionals like "abductions can't possibly be [real, physical abductions]." How do they know that? We can't force them to say, nor can we force them to interview _witnesses_ to abductions, nor can we force them to say, "Yes, I understand there are wide awake, witnessed abductions too." Psychiatrists should restrict their diagnosis to the simple question, does this person's current mental condition make him/her make him unable to look after his/her basic needs (which includes the danger to self or others question)? Yes or no. Any other questions as to what the person may claim are _outside_ the psychiatrist's ability to know. It is time to challenge them and keep challenging them. As current day legislation is giving psychiatrists far more legal power over people, as exemplified in the United States by the "New Freedom" laws which allow government to demand every child be screened for mental illness and _force_ medicated regardless of parents' wishes, the traditional worship of psychiatrists' ascribed omniscience must be broken away or we all face possible mis-diagnosis. Our children face irreparably damaged lives by being involuntarily shot full of medication with serious side effects. Adults are to be included, by the way, starting with pregnant
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Rutkowski Says UFO Sightings Down From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:22:49 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:22:49 -0400 Subject: Rutkowski Says UFO Sightings Down Source: The National Post - Toronto http://tinyurl.com/89nrf Tuesday, August 09, 2005 UFO Sightings Down Broadcast News Winnipeg-based UFO expert Chris Rutkowski says strange sightings have dropped this year across Canada. But he says three people in southeast Manitoba reported seeing a very large cylindrical object with no wings and a somewhat pointed end on Sunday afternoon. Rutkowski says there was also a report last Friday of a mysterious light over Lake Winnipeg. As well, two different pilots flying between Thunder Bay and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: Contactee Taboo - Gottschall From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:33:55 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:26:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Gottschall >From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:31:09 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:36:26 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo <snip> >>>In the olden days, the aliens seemed to know who to grab: Moses, >>>Ezekiel, Mary (the mother of Jesus), Judge Crater, and Jimmy >>>Hoffa. >>>Somehow they must have lost their ability to discriminate over >>>time. >>What a snide remark. The aliens are apparently messing with >>ordinary people, and you read that as evidence that they have >>lost all ability to discriminate. I don't know if that's just a >>bad joke or poor thinking. I would venture that it's some >>from column A and some from column B. >The "snide" remark was an attempt at humor to lighten the debate >so it wouldn't degenerate into the usual hard-nosed banter that >is rampant right now, here and eslewhere. >The point was that alien contactors were not picking the cream >of the human crop when they picked Adamski, Fry, Menger, et al. >(it seems to me). <snip> Hi List, At first read Rich appears to have made a valid point, but considering that we do not really know why particular contactees were selected leaves us only with a best guess. A quality that might seem valid to us may have no value to ETs or what they might know will be required of a contactee. One quality they shared which is obvious to me is that they were extremely tenacious people. George Adamski and Dan Fry were two very dedicated people who had a strong sense of mission that carried them on in their work against ridicule for years. (I might gently point out that most of the ridicule came from UFO researchers too. shoot... Wendelle Stevens is right... we are our own worst enemy) I read in Dan Fry's obituary that in one 14 year period he delivered more than 1200 lectures and appeared on more than 1000 radio and television shows. Michel Desmarquet is another who is known here in Australia. He is the author of Abduction to the 9th Planet. He stayed with us on and off for ten days some years ago and I can attest he is an extremely tenacious character. I wondered why ETs might have selected him to pass on information about themselves. While he was here I found out he was a daily meditator and followed a daily yoga practice too and I think this might have something to do with ETs criteria for selection. These practices, which are often part of many spiritual practices might create more receptive conditions for contact. They might be indicators for the persons skills and ability, mindset, flexibility in thought and behaviour and how they will respond to ET contact, at least initially. It seems to me that a more creative personality type would be less turned on their head by such an experience than a left- brained analytical person whose mindset might be too hard to dislodge. I have said this before but I have found people who report contact are often very creative types. They either play a musical instrument, are prolific writers but in particular write poetry, invent, are in the healing fields or are artistic. I believe this has also been observed by Budd Hopkins and Jenny Randles. So it should be of no surpise to find contactees of the past to share these traits too. As it turns out George Adamski was an artist and long term practicer of spiritual disciplines and Dan Fry a prolific writer and poet. I haven't tracked down anything
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: 'Explaining Vivid Memories Of Martian From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:36:46 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:30:39 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Explaining Vivid Memories Of Martian Typical UFO twaddle by the uneducated! >Source: The New York Times >http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/09/health/09alien.html >August 9, 2005 >Books on Science >Explaining Those Vivid Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >"Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped by >Aliens," by Susan Clancy. Harvard University Press, $22.95. >People who have memories of being abducted by aliens become >hardened skeptics, of a kind. They dismiss the procession of >scientists who explain away the memories as illusions or >fantasy. They scoff at talk about hypnosis or the unconscious >processing of Hollywood scripts. And they hold their ground amid >snickers from a public that thinks that they are daft or >psychotic. <snip> >In her book "Abducted," due in October, Dr. Clancy, a >psychologist at Harvard, manages to refute and defend these >believers, and along the way provide a discussion of current >research into memory, emotion and culture that renders abduction >stories understandable, if not believable. Although it focuses >on abduction memories, the book hints at a larger ambition, to >explain the psychology of transformative experiences <snip> >Where, exactly, do the green figures with the wraparound eyes >come from? From the deep well of pop culture, Dr. Clancy argues, >based on a review of the history of U.F.O. sightings, popular >movies and television programs on aliens. The first "abduction" >in the United States was dramatized in 1953, in the movie >Invaders From Mars," she writes, and a rash of abduction >reports followed this and other works on aliens, including the >television series "The Outer Limits." A "rash of abduction reports"? I can barely refrain from using scatological language! Name one abduction story/report between 1953 and the Villas Boas (1958?) Sorry, contactees don't count. >One such report, by a couple from New Hampshire, Betty and >Barney Hill, followed by days a particularly evocative episode >of the show in 1961. Mr. Hill's description of the aliens - with >big heads and shiny wraparound eyes - was featured in a best- >selling book about the experience, and inspired the alien forms >in Steven Spielberg's "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" in >1977, according to Dr. Clancy.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: 'Dragons' In The Tibet Sky - Hebert From: Amy Hebert <ahebert4.nul> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:08:50 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:32:36 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Dragons' In The Tibet Sky - Hebert >Source: The Epoch Times - New York >http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-8-7/31030.html >Dragons In The Tibet Sky >The Epoch Times >A photo of two peculiar dragon-shaped objects taken from a plane >flying over Tibet's Himalayas piqued many users' interest when >displayed on a Chinese website. The photographer is an amateur. <snip> Considering this photograph was taken from an airplane, it was probably taken through a glass window. The alleged "dragons" appear to be something within the interior of the plane reflecting on the window at the time the photograph was taken (perhaps a strap on the camera, on luggage or woven leather? on the seat arm rests).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: Contactee Taboo - Harrison From: Sheryl Gottschal" <gottscha.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:29:46 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:37:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Harrison >From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:18:07 +1000 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Martin Gottschall <mgottschall.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 11:37:28 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>1. The contactee is trying to bridge a huge chasm between our >>culture and an ET culture. >How do you define if the message being told is the truth and >nothing but the truth so help you god.? "now lay quiet while I >use my anal probe" :) >snip< You're right Diane, it's a difficult path to know if any ETs are telling us the truth and we should expect ETs to have their own agenda too. It would be too anthropencentric of us not to. The best we can do is to study the contactee literature and see what commonalities individual testimonies have, much like abduction cases. Wendelle Stevens did this in his presentation at the Laughlin conference in March and I found it very interesting. >I mean, the huge chasm between ETs cultural truths only lies >within what one conceives to be the ET truth. >If we can consider ETs are studying us for the betterment of the >human race as most abductees and contactees are told. If you read the contactee literature you will find this is only a part of why ETs claim they are here, but in relation to this aspect of contact the underlying message seems to be that ETs are here for their own purposes as well as to help humanity birth it's civilization through troubled times. ETs have done it, so we can too. ETs will not save us, but will advise us of what we need to do or how to behave that will set us on the path to getting ourselves out of the mess of our own making, (but there are no guarantees we will make it) and it has nothing to do with them giving us more technology since we can't handle what we already have responsibly. That's why I don't agree with Steven Greer's current approach. More technology is the last thing we need, at least until we rebalance our civilization with more development in our social and spiritual sciences. <snip> >There are many researchers with a tendency to believe readily >who honor all and every ET experience, good on you for being so >expectable. But don't get the shits when other researchers >looking for hard evidence ask you for physical proof and for you >to prove what you've been told is the truth. Getting the s...s?! (splutter) My computer screen is now covered with coffee! Thanks. But no, no one is getting... er... um... diarrohea over this. It's a valid request to want hard evidence but a difficult one to supply. Adamski did produce evidence eg. photos, witnesses with sworn affadavits and more. These might not mean anything to anyone today but back then when values were different affadavits meant a lot. He also produced photos which to date, as far as I'm aware, have not been discredited, but if this is so I'd like to be corrected. There is more evidence I won't go into now because this email is already too long. From what I observe the evidence keeps getting swept aside and ignored for some reason. His name has become a trigger word and the mere mention of it sets hair curling, eyes blazing and smoke fuming from peoples ears, yet upon closer questioning I find many haven't actually read his books, just regurgitated versions of his story told over and over, and incorrect at that. There's also his Cosmic Philosophy, Science of Life Study Course, but if you can't swallow those at least read Tim Goods, George Adamski The Untold Story. Wendelle Stevens also said at the conference that Adamski got a bad deal from the beginning. Coral and Jim Lorenzen did not hit it off with him at their first meeting so they gave him a bad report and the UFO community just followed their lead. Stevens stated the only person who actually investigated his case was Bruce Cathie! Can anyone add to this? Since then Timothy Good has had a good close look at it and thought enough of the Adamski case to co-author a book about him as well as to devote a large section of his Alien Base book to Adamski. Stevens went on to say at the conference that after a substantive encounter Adamski would be picked up at Miramar and flown to the Pentagon for debriefing, then be returned to Mirimar. As Wendelle Stevens said, people at the Pentagon did not think him to be a hoaxer or fraud. Another insight about contactee evidence is from Dan Fry's book To Men Of Earth. Here the ETs state," If for any reason our judgement of the subjects reactions should be in error and he should decide to report the contact at once, there will be no physical evidence of the event, and it will be very unlikely that any of his fellow workers will give serious attention to his report." So it seems that these ETs could not judge everything about how an individual might respond to contact. Neither can we apparently. <snip> >>2. There is a tendency to approach this task using the tools of >>"science". I think we should be using the tools of "philosophy". >We should use the tools of philosophy, hum very interesting and >which kind of philosophical theory do we base our investigations >on? None, or all. Keep in mind the ultimate goal of philosophy is the search for truth and wisdom but the step preceding this is to learn how to THINK. And even though philosophy demands we go where truth takes us we cannot bite off more than we are ready to chew at that moment. It can take a lifetime to get from point A to point B. As some ETs have pointed out, we're a hard lot to get through to and we're a bit slow in doing so. >Fortunately for me I fit in more with the abductees set, but >hang a minute " we tell you less" according your wife Sheryl. Abduction testimonies can be coloured by trauma and large parts of the memory appear to be repressed. Added to this I'm not sure how helpful these memories actually are since a lot of coping mechanisms kick in before we hear the first hand account, possibly distorting the event. This might have happened to a lesser degree with contactees except they do not report trauma (but they can report shock) and appear to have no repressed memories, but this may just be an assumption. However, if it's true there would possibly be no tainting of memories from trauma effects. They also report a very comprehensive picture of ET civilizations and lifestyles. You don't typically get this from abductees. It can be abstract and cryptic. >Strange if you think like this why do you & Sheryl hold >abduction support group meetings? Actually the group I facilitate is an Encounter Group which is open to all types of experiencers such as abductees, contactees and any who don't fit into any "box" to come forward and tell of their experiences. Hence the broader name. I run the group because for me it's a vital component of the subject. People need the support to come out and speak about their experiences. They're not getting it, or enough of it. Also they're only getting what researchers think they need not what they actually need. They're frustrated, flabbergasted and fed up with the UFO community and it's narrow approach to ET contact. I tell you, hanging around these people you get direct insights about what ETs are up against. I can only imagine how much hair pulling goes on inside some of those craft! But back to the support groups, these kinds of groups are in extremely short supply in Australia. As far as I'm aware only Mary Rodwell in Perth, Brenda Butler in Melbourne, and myself here in Brisbane run support groups. I have been contacted with others around the country over the years who wanted to set up such a group but I don't know if they actually did so. If anyone knows of others running these types of groups in Australia I'd
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: 'Explaining Vivid Memories Of Martian From: Amy Hebert <ahebert4.nul> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 22:58:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:39:26 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Explaining Vivid Memories Of Martian >Source: The New York Times >http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/09/health/09alien.html >August 9, 2005 >Books on Science >Explaining Those Vivid Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >"Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped by >Aliens," by Susan Clancy. Harvard University Press, $22.95. <snip> >Dr. Clancy's accounting for abduction memories starts with an >odd but not uncommon experience called sleep paralysis. While in >light dream-rich REM sleep, people will in rare cases wake up >for a few moments and find themselves unable to move. "Martian Kidnappers"? Tells ya where this is going right off the bat. I have not read Dr. Clancy's book yet but it seems obvious she had her mind made up (bias) before she even began her "study". Starting with the sleep paralysis theory, my bet is she never tested the alleged abductees in her study to see if they actually had any sleep disorders or experiences of this nature. Like many, she probably threw the sleep paralysis explanation out there along with the baby and the bath water. Unless she conducted a careful and thorough study of the claimed abductees' sleep histories (far beyond a mere 5 or 10 question survey), the theory of sleep paralysis should not be added to the conclusion. Sleep paralysis can be presented with reference to prior studies but not as part of the original study. >Some of them must have an explanation as exotic as the surreal >nature of the experience itself. Although no one has studied >this group systematically, Dr. Clancy suggests based on her >interviews, that they tend to be people who already have some >interest in the paranormal, mystical arts and the possibility of >extraterrestrial visitors. "Based on her interviews"? Red flags going up. <snip> >When asked to recall the word lists, those with abduction >memories were more likely than a group of peers who had no such >memories to falsely recall the unlisted word. "Group of peers"? Let me guess...she compared the results from the claimed abductee group with the results from a group of peers solicited from...the campus or local newspaper, a bb in the psych department, etc. One must question just how one goes about matching a peer group to a group of individuals who claim to have been abducted by creatures not of this world. Chances are these researchers did what most professors do and advertised for anyone willing to take a survey in the Psych. Dept. and called them their "peer group". When they searched for their claimed abductee group, just how many came from the same source as their "peer" group and how many came from the general population? That's like comparing apples to oranges, Protestants to Catholics. ;> >In another experiment, the researchers found that recalling >abduction memories prompted physiological changes in blood >pressure and sweat-gland activity that were higher than those >seen in post-traumatic stress syndrome. The memories produced >intense emotional trauma, and each time that occurs it deepens >the certainty that something profound really did happen. How can psychophysiological responses to abduction memories be compared to phychophysiological responses to memories of normal human traumatic experiences? In order to make these comparisons a researcher must *assume* memories of encounters with the unexplained _should_ evoke the same responses as memories of encounters with the explained. Obviously these researchers have not had many encounters with the unexplained or if they did, they quickly distanced themselves through layers of scientific denial. Not only are encounters with the unexplained more difficult to accept, they are also more difficult to assimilate into one's everyday life and therefore, may remain almost as traumatic as when they first occurred. Furthermore, individuals who experience post-traumatic stress may not suffer the same maladies and social reactions as individuals who claim to have been abducted. Sufferers of PTSD are not usually ridiculed, automatically categorized as "fantasy prone", suffering from "sleep paralysis" or summarily dismissed as "flakes". PTSD is recognized as a medical condition with professional help readily available. On the other hand, those who claim to have been abducted by beings of unknown origins are often ridiculed, ignored and categorized under a whole list of psychological disorders. Unlike those who suffer from PTSD, claimed abductees often do not have just one or two traumatic abduction experiences but many. If these claims are true, abductees never even have a chance to reach the stage of PTSD because their traumas are ongoing and always fresh in their memories. How does one adapt to being continually abducted and traumatized by beings no one believes exist? What _genuine_ scientific studies have been done on CCASD or Chronic Claimed Abduction Stress Disorders? >Although no one of those elements - sleep paralysis, interest in >the paranormal, hypnotherapy, memory tricks or emotional >investment - is necessary or sufficient to create abduction >memories, they tend to cluster together in self-described >abductees, Dr. Clancy finds. "In the past, researchers have >tended to concentrate on one or another" factor, she said in an >interview. "I'm saying they all play a role." Any claims, results or conclusions of this study are only valid for the population which Dr. Clancy, et al studied, i.e. - self- described abductees. If Dr. Clancy and her associate made no attempts whatsoever to _first_ validate the claims of these individuals as having had genuine abduction experiences, the results of this study cannot and should not be generalized to any potential population of genuine abductees. Until researchers treat claims of abduction with the objectivity and scientific rigor they deserve, nothing will be learned about the true nature of these experiences. Lumping them together with known disorders, side-stepping investigation to administer biased surveys to yield predetermined results is a cop out. Before anyone can claim abductees are merely fantasy prone victims of sleep paralysis and sci-fi movies, they must first prove abductions are real or not real. Until the underlying cause of these claims has been thoroughly and carefully investigated, researched, validated or invalidated, we dare not
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:12:25 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:41:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? - Sparks >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 03:24:35 -0400 >Subject: Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 15:20:34 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? <snip> >>If life is discovered on Jupiter, will I quit smoking? Probably >>not. I fail to make the connection. >You have to understand a particular mindset, Larry. >Rev. Jerry Falwell has categorically said there is no life >anywhere else in the universe. Why? Because it is not mentioned >in the Bible, and if it existed it would be. If life is found >elsewhere in the universe it will be a major problem for Rev. >Jerry and his followers. >Intelligent life is an even bigger problem for >"fundamentalists", because intelligent life elsewhere could not >know Jesus, and therefore would automatically be condemned to >hell. Rev. Billy Graham has said UFOs might be angels in the universe thus not rejecting life in the universe.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 32 From: John Hayes <John.nul> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:23:26 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:45:28 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 32 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan.nul> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 10, Number 32 August 10, 2005 Editor: Joseph Trainor E-mail: Masinaigan.nul Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ GIANT UFO SEEN TWICE IN EXETER, NEW HAMPSHIRE "A man in Exeter, New Hampshire (population 9,759) claimed that he recently saw an object the size of two aircraft carriers, but some think it's nothing more than a tall tale." "Artist Angela Gram met with the man who said that he saw the object on a recent afternoon." "'First it started with a cylindrical shape. It was silver and metallic,' Gram said, 'And later it turned color to orange, and there were flames underneath.'" "Gram revealed a drawing of the object based on the man's description. She said that his story was believable." "'He was an ex-Navy pilot, and he seemed to know what he was talking about in terms of aircraft,' she said." "The man--whose identity is also a mystery--said he didn't think police would believe him so he called the National UFO Reporting Center" in Seattle, Wash. "In his report, he said, 'The object seemed to stretch out about twice its original size, and then, in the blink of an eye, it simply disappeared right in front of me.'" "Over the years, there have been many other UFO sightings in New Hampshire. Some residents said they thought it's possible that there's life out there, but many aren't convinced that aliens are piloting vehicles over the New Hampshire skies." "'I just don;t believe it,' one resident said, 'It would be nice to think about it, but it's a figment of the imagination, I think.'" "But Gram said she's convinced that it's not a hoax and that her drawing represents what he saw." A few days later, another eyewitness stepped forward. This time it was a woman from East Kingston, N.H. (population 400). "It's happened again. An East Kingston resident said she saw 'a silver, cigar-shaped object' in a daytime sky last week. This time it was a homemaker who, like the first person give an account of witnessing an unidentified flying object, wished to use only her first name-- Lucienne." "The sighting allegedly happened around noon on (Monday) July 25, 2005. Lucienne said she was standing in a meadow behind her house on North Road when she saw the long object in the sky. She described it as a 'pill shape' because it had rounded ends and was longer than it was wide." "Dark spots lined the object, which appeared to be windows." "Lucienne said the incident lasted for about 30 seconds, and she didn't have time to run into her house to get her binoculars." "When she saw the object, she called for her husband, but he was too far away to hear." "The report comes about a week after a 48-year-old Navy veteran claimed to have seen a similar object when he was in the backyard of his home in Exeter. 'David,' as he wished to be described, said he saw the object about 3 p.m. on (Wednesday) July 20 (2005). He presented a detailed report to the UFO Reporting Center in Seattle." Lucienne said she didn't read the first article in the Exeter News-Letter about David's encounter until (Wednesday) July 27 (2005). When she read the second article about people questioning the validity of David's account, she contacted the News-Letter because, she said, she believes she saw the same object in the sky just days after his encounter." "Like David's account, Lucienne said that, before the object disappeared, it stretched out to about twice its original size. But unlike David's account, Lucienne said the object did not change color and she did not see any flames under the object." "Also, the 'windows' on the object did not extend to each end. Rather, each end of the object was solid and lacked windows. Lucienne wrote down her description so that she'd have documentation, but she had not submitted to UFO authorities as of Monday," August 1, 2005. (See the Exeter, N.H. News-Letter for July 27, 2005 and for August 3, 2005, "East Kingston woman reports similar UFO sighting." Many thanks to Mary Lou Jones-Drown for these newspaper articles.) (Editor's Note: Exeter, N.H., of course, is famous for the multiple large UFOs that were seen by local police and residents forty years ago, from September 3, 1965 to November 29, 1965.) ZIGZAGGING UFO SIGHTED IN UPSTATE NEW YORK On Wednesday, August 3, 2005, at 9:45 p.m., Kyle Crossett took a break from his job at Big Bobby Brown's Restaurant, located at the southern tip of Saratoga Lake in Malta, N.Y. As he stepped outdoors, he saw something unusual in the night sky. "Stepping outside of my workplace for some fresh air, I noticed a bright light which I immediately took for a bright planet or star," Kyle reported, "As I focused on the light, it began to change, from my perspective, from what at first looked to be a motionless/stationary light to a light moving swiftly towards the lake surface while pulling toward the west in a curved flight path." "As it made the curved maneuver, the main white light would dim out and the red light would appear flashing in its place. At this point, it stopped, dimmed and moved off towards the east, all the while alternating between the white light and the flashing red light." "It continued in this motion, which could in fact be interpreted as a craft with a defined mass, and took to moving over the lake in concentric loops--almost like a search pattern--all the while maintaining a personal altitude of 125 meters (412 feet) above the lake. It did, however, stop, hover and change direction intermittently, all the while returning to the loop manuever during the course of 15 minutes." "I even made an attempt at communication. I flashed the headlights of my SUV in their direction. Tried S.O.S. in the old Morse Code. Tried flashing nine times in three sets of three (flashes). And even matched the flashing of my headlights with the flashing red light on the craft." "As soon as I attempted communication, the craft headed swiftly towards the south-southwest and dropped behind the treeline. No engine noise was heard. In fact, there weren't any other aircraft during the entire time." Malta, N.Y. is on Route 9 approximately 10 miles (16 kilometers) south of Saratoga Springs, N.Y. (Email Form Report) UFOs SIGHTED TWICE IN CALIFORNIA On Saturday, July 30, 2005, at 11:15 p.m., Mark N. reports, "Me and my girlfriend were sitting in my truck, looking at the stars" in Escondido, California (population 133,559). "Earlier in the day, we saw some lightning in the distance, and I saw what I thought was an airplane flying over. But it didn't have any flashing (navigation) lights. It was one color, maybe a yellowish-orange color. I thought it was a little strange because it was moving at a different speed than an airplane. I thought it might have been a helicopter." "By then, my girlfriend was watching it, too. We were both trying to think of what type of aircraft it might be." "After maybe 10 minutes of watching this, the light suddenly stopped moving. It wasn't too high in the air, but it wasn't too low, either. It was just stopped. Then it moved a little down to the left and then slowly to the right. And then it just faded out for good and was gone. By then, we were both freaked out as to what it might be." "After about a minute and a half of sitting still, it dropped a quick light--like a lighted ball or something-- really fast, and it went straight down. Then it started moving along its original path, but then faded back a little bit, and then just faded out for good and was gone." "We sat for a little bit longer to see if there was anything else. But it was gone, and the sky was still clear like it had been before. I thought it might have been an airplane or a helicopter dropping people or boxes. But the object disappeared too quickly, and it was too high and too fast." "I've been around airplanes my whole life as my family are pilots," Mark added, "I've never seen anything that looks like what I saw. The way it moved and faded was just so unreal." Escondido, Cal. is on Highway 78 about 25 miles (40 kilometers) northeast of San Diego. On Sunday, July 31, 2005, Kari Lasee and her two friends were fishing on the Stanislaus River in California when they had a UFO encounter. Kari reported, "Two friends and I were fishing in the Stanislaus River at approximately 3 a.m. when a very bright star appeared. We saw it directly overhead. We were kind of stargazing, too. We'd seen a few falling stars earlier (Saturday, July 30, 2005) in the evening. It stayed in one place and went a little to one side, then the other." "Suddenly, it vanished by flying straight up, and the light got dimmer and dimmer." "A few seconds later, it reappeared close by and did the same thing. It was a bright white light, and it looked like a star." Kari and her friends were fishing in Riverbank, Cal. (population 15,826), a town on Highways 108 and 120, about 7 miles (11 kilometers) northeast of Modesto. (Email Form Reports) HUNDREDS SPY GREEN UFO IN SAO PAULO, BRAZIL On Sunday, July 31, 2005, at 9:45 p.m., "hundreds of residents of the bairro Cidade Tiradentes (neighborhood) in Sao Paulo, saw a strange object in the sky near the planet Jupiter but closer to the horizon. Onlookers described it as 'a UFO of a greenish color which slowly flew from north to south over Cidade Tiradentes. It flew at a constant velocity, similar to that of a satellite, and on a strict trajectory.'" "At first, the object seemed like a bright star positioned near Jupiter. But as it began to move, people realized that it was a UFO. This sighting lasted for approximately five minutes." "The object was also seen over Viaduto da Cha in the central city." "When last seen, the object disappeared over the southern horizon in the direction of Sao Caetano do Sul." Sao Paulo is the capital of Brazil's state of Sao Paulo and is located about 500 kilometers (300 miles) southwest of Rio de Janeiro. With a population of 8 million, Sao Paulo is the largest city in South America. (Muito obrigado a Brunilda Barros e Mauro de Rezende por eso caso.) CIGAR-SHAPED UFO SEEN IN SOUTHERN AUSTRALIA On Sunday, July 24, 2005, at 10:50 p.m., Alfred Stevenson parked his van on the main street of Meeniyan, Victoria state, Australia when he spotted something strange in the northern night sky. "We were on holiday in Victoria," Alfred reported, "It appeared from the north. We were going to the van, which was parked on Meeniyan's main street. I opened the door and grabbed my camera and took three photos of it. We watched it go (south) until it was out of sight. It was not as fast as an aircraft." "When we checked the photos on our home computer, they were different from what we saw (at the time--J.T.). There was only the last one that looked like what we saw. It had a cigar shape, looked like fire all around, and there was no sound. I got three photos of it. It was about 1,000 feet (300 meters) high, and it was moving at 80 kilometers per hour (50 miles per hour--J.T.)." (Email Form Report) ANOTHER UFO SIGHTED IN LONDON, ONTARIO On Monday, August 1, 2005, at 10:15 p.m., Ahmed Atiya and his 15-year-old son were walking along Southdale Road in London, Ontario, Canada (population 325,646) when they spotted a mysterious "red glow" in the sky. "The object appeared to be moving westward at first and then changed to eastward," Ahmed reported, "Me and my 15-year-old son were taking a walk because of the weather. Our house is located on nearby Birchwood Drive. All of a sudden, we saw a red glow in the sky, behind what seemed like very thick clouds on a clear night. We first assumed it was lightning because we could see that it was behind the clouds, but, as we looked further, we realized that the light was still there." "We decided to go westward and head home. Then we noticed that the (red) light was following us. It did not seem to be coming closer or moving further away from us. But it just kept following behind us at the same distance." "One interesting thing is that it was behind the only visible clouds in the entire sky. It seemed to be pulling the clouds along with it. I estimate that it was at an altitude of 100 feet (30 meters) and was travelling at 60 kilometers per hour (36 miles per hour--J.T.)." London, Ont. is on Provincial Highway 4 approximately 132 miles (201 kilometers) west of Toronto, Canada's largest city. (Email Form Report) INDIANA MAN LEADS HUNT FOR BIGFOOT "Could the legendary phenomenon Bigfoot by lurking in Kosciusko County" in northern Indiana? "One man believes he could be, though he's never seen him himself." "Mike Bardsley's son first encountered" Bigfoot in June 2003 near the family's home in North Webster, Indiana (population 1,067). "'They shined the flashlight at it, and it was really long and furry,' says Bardsley, "'That's when they started realizing there's legs on the end of it, and it's a long body, and that's when it started to put its arms down and push itself up. They just turned and ran straight home to the trailer.'" "Then, several months later, his son and two friends were meeting in nearby wetlands. 'It stood up in place. They clearly stated that what they saw appeared to be in the 8-foot (2.4-meter-tall) range, large shoulders, nimble hands, the long arms at the end. But in the instant that it stood up, it turned on its heels and ran due east out of their range.'" "Mike Bardsley has never seen it himself, but others have. His search is a full-time hobby." "'If Sasquatch does not exist, then what are thousands of people seeing?' asks Bardsley." "Plaster of Paris is always on hand to record footprints." "Bardsley has set up his own Web site--Indiana Bigfoot Awareness Group." "Bardsley says he has got laughed at a lot, but a few who've laughed also claim that they've heard stories from friends who say they've seen a similar living creature." North Webster is on Indiana Highway 13 about 40 miles (64 kilometers) northwest of Fort Wayne. (See the WNDU-TV Channel 16 News Center of South Bend, Indiana broadcast of August 5, 2005, "Could Bigfoot be lurking in Indiana?" Many thanks to Loren Coleman for the WNDU-TV transcript.) DISCOVERY'S CAMERA NABS GLIMPSE OF A SAUCER On Tuesday, August 2, 2005, at approximately 3:15 a.m. Eastern time, a TV camera aboard the space shuttle Discovery captured an image of a descending saucer on the night side of Earth. "DirectTV Satellite Channel 376," showing live NASA footage, "was broadcasting a shot from the shuttle of the darkened Earth, where only the city lights could be seen apart from the faint corona around the edge of the globe." The original eyewitness said he "could not tell if it was live feed or not." "That went on for roughly five minutes from the time I turned on, and then, suddenly, an extremely bright solid white disc appeared in the lower portion of the screen and shot inward, towards the Earth, at terrific speed, leaving a tracer (a trail of light--J.T.) on the camera in its wake." "As soon as this happened, the feed went blank and returned to the standard (NASA) map of the globe showing the orbital path of the shuttle." "It was definitely not space debris, was perfect in shape, appeared to be self-luminous and moved at a terrific velocity away from the camera, towards Earth, getting smaller as it went." (Many thanks to Steve Wilson Sr. for this news story.) DISCOVERY CREW PULLS OFF UNPRECEDENTED SPACE WALK The crew of the space shuttle Discovery pulled off an unprecedented spacewalk last week in an attempt to remove two stubs of heat seal that could prove dangerous to the spacecraft's re-entry. "Two stubs of heat seal were sticking out about 1 inch (2.5 centimeters) from the shuttle's underside. The loose bits of seal, which fill gaps between the tiles on the ship's belly, could disturb the flow of air around Discovery as it re-enters the atmosphere. That could lead to dangerously high temperatures on the shield." "NASA is also analyzing a section of the heat shield that appears to have been torn by debris during Discovery's ascent last week. Deputy shuttle program manager Wayne Hale said the concern is that the ragged panel of heat-resistant fabric could rip away during" the shuttle's re-entry. "To fix the heat seals, astronaut Stephen Robinson will ride the International Space Station's robotic arm to the shuttle's belly," then "make the repair positioned a foot away from the shuttle, bending at the knees to stay steady." "'That came out very easily,' astronaut Stephen Robinson said, after pulling out the second piece of seal. 'It looks like this big patient is cured.'" "It took him only 10 minutes to draw out the first piece, move across the shuttle's underside and draw out the second." "Robinson brought the gap fillers back to Discovery so NASA can analyze them upon the crew's return." "Mission managers hesitated to send Robinson in a bulky suit and helmet to float within inches of the shuttle's fragile belly tiles. One slip could have created more damage." "After all the hand-wringing, Robinson made the job look easy. He didn't need the forceps, hacksaw or scissors he carried in case the head seals resisted the tug of his fingers. Most important, neither he nor his tools so much as brushed against the tiles." Robinson remarked upon the shuttle's beauty from his vantage point. "'Maybe you have to be an old aerodynamicist like me, but the surface of this belly is just a work of art,' he said, hovering near the shuttle's black underside." "Robinson rode to the repair sites standing at the end of the International Space Station's robotic arm, which was guided by Discovery crewmates James Kelly and Wendy Lawrence." "During the trip, the only things between Robinson and emptiness of outer space were a few tethers and a platform as small as a desk blotter, onto which his feet were strapped." "Once he reached the shuttle, orbiting 220 miles (352 kilometers) above Earth, there were no handholds, only the smooth curve of the ship's belly. To get Robinson to the right angle and distance for the repair, Kelly and Lawrence moved the robotic arm a few inches at a time." "'Vegas, that was the ride of the century,' Robinson said, addressing Kelly by his nickname." (See USA Today for August 3, 2005, "Delicate repair today underneath Discovery," page 7A and USA Today for August 4, 2005, "Shuttle gets tummy tuck but may need more work," page 4A.) CASSINI PERFORMS A NEW FLYBY PAST MIMAS Also last week, the robot spacecraft Cassini performed another flyby past Saturn's small, heavily- cratered moon, Mimas, taking more closeup images of a sphere that looks more like a derelict alien Death Star than a moon. "No, it's not Star Wars' Death Star. But Mimas, one of Saturn's moons, offers up its own dramatic story, NASA scientists say." "Passing by the battered moon at a distance of 142,500 miles (228,000 kilometers), the space agency's Cassini orbiter found that Mimas (pronounced MY-muss) boasts the most heavily cratered surface in Saturn's system." "That surface includes the Herschel crater, an 88- mile (140-kilometer) wide cavity that dominates the 247- mile (395-kilometer) diameter icy moon. Long grooves on the surface seen in the flyby may be the result of the impact that created the massive (Herschel) crater." "Scientists hope that cataloging Mimas' craters will provide clues about the age of Saturn's system of moons, as well as revealing something about the source of whatever hit Mimas." (See USA Today for August 8, 2005, "Massive craters seen on Saturn moon," page 6D.) NEW MYSTERIES EMERGE ON SATURN'S MOON ENCELADUS "Saturn's icy moon Enceladus spews a mysterious water vapor cloud from its south pole, seen up close by NASA's Cassini spacecraft." "Geothermal 'hot spots' on the moon, only 310 miles (516 kilometers) in diameter, may be responsible, says Torrence Johnson of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory" in Pasadena, California. "The moon's ice-covered south pole lacks craters, indicating it has been freshly resurfaced and appears strewn with house-size ice boulders." "Flying within 109 miles (175 kilometers) of the moon in July (2005), the spacecraft spotted large fractures called 'tiger stripes,' surprisingly warmer" at 261 degrees below zero on the Fahrenheit scale, "than the moon's equator," where it's a chilly 316 degrees below zero. "'This is astonishing, as if we'd flown past Earth and found that the Antarctic was warmer than the Sahara,' said team scientist John Spencer of the Southwest Research Institute in a NASA statement." (See USA Today for August 2, 2005, "Watery world found at Saturn's ice moon," page 6D.) (Editor's Comment: Geothermal energy for heat--water for drinking, growing food and making oxygen--the best view of Saturn in the solar system. No doubt about it, Enceladus is the perfect spot for our UFO Roundup space colony. Now all we have to do is get there.) From the UFO Files... 1865: GIANT SPHERICAL UFO SIGHTED IN TURKEY On May 8, 1865, in the city of Istanbul, then the capital of the Ottoman Turkish Empire (now the largest city in Turkey--J.T.), Aristide Coumbary, an amateur astronomer from France, decided to make an observation of the sun. "It is my custom to direct my telescope from time to time on the sun for the purpose of observing the solar spots," Coumbary wrote in his letter of May 10, 1865 to the French astronomer Leverrier. "And during the month of May, in particular, my scrutiny is very constant, for, to tell you the truth, the temperature at the period of the year indisposes me to active exertion." "On May 8 (1865--exactly 22 days after the assassination of President Abraham Lincoln at Ford's Theatre in Washington, D.C.--J.T.), I was observing the sun according to my custom, and about 9 hours, 28 minutes, I fancied I saw a little black point detach itself from a certain spot." "I did not feel quite confident that that was the case, and, thinking my eye might be at fault, I rested awhile; again examining the (solar) disk, a further proof awaited me that I had not been deceived, for I found the black point had departed from the spot to the extent of twice its former distance." (Editor's Note: The black dot was moving swiftly across the surface of the sun.) "This time I discovered that the black point had a circular outline, and moved minute by minute. The power I was using was 140, but I changed this for a higher one, to wit, 280. This enabled me to distinguish very plainly the movement of the black body, but the loss of light rendered the outline less clear." "From the time I saw the object till its final disappearance off the sun's limb, a period of about 48 minutes elapsed. Just before the disappearance, the outline became oval and seemed to show a central separation, as if there were two bodies in close contiguity, but of this I am not certain, for perhaps my eye, being fatigued, was at fault, or the (telescope's) eyepiece had something to do with it." "I deem it my duty to lay this observation before you as it may serve as a basis for further observation." Apparently Coumbary had seen a large spherical object out in space, passing between Earth and the sun. And this wasn't the first time such an anomaly had been sighted by Earthbound astronomers. Four years later, in 1869, another astronomer, T.G.E. Elger, presented a list of similar "mystery object" sightings to the Astronomical Register. Elger wrote, "In the second volume of Petit's Traite de Astronomie pour les gens du Monde (Translated: Treatise on Astronomy for the Peoples of the World--J.T.), I find a notice of Coumbary's observation...Other observations of supposed intra-Mercurial bodies were also referred to by M. Petit." "Two small spots were seen on the sun, round, black and unequal in size, by Gruithuisen on the 26th June 1819 and by Pastorff on the following dates--23rd October 1822; 24th and 25th July 1823; six times during the year 1834 (no dates given); 18th October 1836; 1st November 1836; 16th February 1837." "In 1834, these spots were 3 minutes and 1.25 minutes in diameter, the smaller preceding and sometimes following the larger one, at an angular distance which did not exceed 1.16." "In 1836 and 1837, arcs of 12, 6 and 14 minutes were passed over in 52, 54 and 30 minutes of time." "As I have not seen an account of M. Coumbary's observations elsewhere, I think the above extract will not be without interest to some of your readers." And so, it seems that, until fairly recent times, very large alien spacecraft routinely passed through Earth's solar system. But, as telescopes improved in quality and astronomers became more skilled, the aliens re-routed their large spacecraft away from our sun, concealing their presence in our system. Aristide Coumbary's observation in Istanbul in 1865 was not unlike the situation of a primitive South Pacific islander eighty years later, in 1945, seeing the big American aircraft carrier passing offshore in the dead of night and wondering, What is that thing? (See the book The Unexplained: A Sourcebook of Strange Phenomena by William R. Corliss, Bantam Books, New York, N.Y., 1976, pages 104, 105, 109 and 110. Also Astronomical Register 3:214 for 1865 and Astronomical Register 7:164 for 1869.) Well, that's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth--and occasionally, Saturn--brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup." See you next time. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2005 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert Rosales), Filer's Files, UFO News UK. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers. If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received the bulletin in error, please write to:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Scientific Investigation Of 'Alien Bases'? From: Jason Gammon <LuckyHoodoo.nul> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:01:27 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:51:38 -0400 Subject: Scientific Investigation Of 'Alien Bases'? Scientific Investigation of Alleged "Alien Bases" I often wonder why this area has not been picked up by a good majority of researchers? Assuming the UFO phenomena is indeed extraterrestrial in nature, one might conclude that a type of base would be vital to the occupants agenda. Of course one may speculate that the occupants have the technological capacity to travel from their place of origin to our planet whenever the situation arises, without the need of a base, but I feel this is an overlooked aspect of this phenomena. One could even speculate possible areas of interest such as the Moon, the ocean floor, or even certain moutain range.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: 'Explaining Vivid Memories Of Martian From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:05:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:32:42 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Explaining Vivid Memories Of Martian >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 17:16:04 -0400 >Subject: Re: 'Explaining Vivid Memories Of Martian Kidnappers' >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:27:42 -0400 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: 'Explaining Vivid Memories Of Martian >>Kidnappers' >>Source: The New York Times >>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/09/health/09alien.html >>August 9, 2005 ><snip> >>"Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped by >>Aliens," by Susan Clancy. Harvard University Press, $22.95. >As a member of a group who are constantly mis-diagnosed by the >psychiatric profession, this strikes a chord with me. >I understand Dr. Clancy is a _psychologist_, <snip> Yes Ma'am, and a greater mishmash of, at best, cross- conflicting, wrong spirited, decidedly sociopathic, inordinately complacent, and increasingly overpowerful as you say. At worst? Well just consider the horrific disrespect proffered to the individual by Skinner, or the lack of humility displayed by one of the more famous, even, who would know the mind of God. All the rest of them sign on for the program to qualify the effort they spent trying to secure a lucrative spot in a bad, specifically hypocritical, system. Pretty sad. These would get off telling us what we should be thinking. Nnot that I'd sign on for any of that bat squeeze...A pox on 'em... they're just another closed (essentially) institution betraying the trust (kids need drugs _provoking_ them to depression and suicide?) and abdicating required idiosyncratic credit in the egregious process... all respect to you Dr. Randle! <g>. >As current day legislation is giving psychiatrists far more >legal power over people, as exemplified in the United States by >the "New Freedom" laws which allow government to demand every >child be screened for mental illness and _force_ medicated >regardless of parents' wishes, the traditional worship of >psychiatrists' ascribed omniscience must be broken away or we >all face possible mis-diagnosis. Our children face irreparably >damaged lives by being involuntarily shot full of medication >with serious side effects. Truth, surely. The term "mis-diagnosis" above should be littered with asterix if Errol allowed them. >Adults are to be included, by the way, starting with pregnant >women. These laws are now being initiated state by state. >This, I suggest, should be a concern for anyone with a >connection to ufology. With regard to the lovely Dr. Clancy, an obvious Kool-aid drinker and capering troll of the self-disqualifying, one only has to see her lecturing us on the subject, as we all did on the Larry King show a few weeks ago with Seth Shostak... for a grand re-issue of pelicanistic ufological cluelessness. I wrote: "Dr. Susan Clancy, the only other skeptibunky in representation, was clearly, even pathetically, out of her depth! She blithely displayed an _astonishing_ ignorance about the whole subject of UFOs, and even used that tired old canard of "sleep paralysis" as the leading contender for explaining alien abduction! I was frankly embarrassed for her." I become more outraged.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: 'Dragons' In The Tibet Sky - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:41:06 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:53:46 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Dragons' In The Tibet Sky - Ledger >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert4.nul>To: ><ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:08:50 -0500 >Subject: Re: 'Dragons' In The Tibet Sky >>Source: The Epoch Times - New York >>http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-8-7/31030.html >>Dragons In The Tibet Sky The Epoch Times >>A photo of two peculiar dragon-shaped objects taken from a >>plane flying over Tibet's Himalayas piqued many users' >>interest when displayed on a Chinese website. The >>photographer is an amateur. ><snip> >Considering this photograph was taken from an airplane, it was >probably taken through a glass window. The alleged "dragons" >appear to be something within the interior of the plane >reflecting on the window at the time the photograph was taken >(perhaps a strap on the camera, on luggage or woven leather? >on the seat arm rests). >Note the white outlines around the alleged 'dragons' and the >line along the edge of the photograph or airplane window? The pictures don't do much for me, however a reflection from
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: Rutkowski Says UFO Sightings Down - Rutkowski From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:17:31 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:28:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Rutkowski Says UFO Sightings Down - Rutkowski Well, that's not _quite_ what I said, but okay... On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote: >Source: The National Post - Toronto >Tuesday, August 09, 2005 >UFO Sightings Down >Broadcast News >Winnipeg-based UFO expert Chris Rutkowski says strange sightings >have dropped this year across Canada. That much is true. >But he says three people in southeast Manitoba reported seeing a >very large cylindrical object with no wings and a somewhat >pointed end on Sunday afternoon. >Rutkowski says there was also a report last Friday of a >mysterious light over Lake Winnipeg. >As well, two different pilots flying between Thunder Bay and >Winnipeg reported seeing a bright light moving south to north on >July 24th -- but air traffic control told them there were no >other aircraft in the area. I've been working with and in media for a long time, and it's still interesting to me how stories can be generated and take on lives of their own. This is what happened: Errol had asked me some time ago about our mid-year "checkup" on Canadian UFO sightings. In addition to our annual Canadian UFO Survey, which Geoff Dittman crunches and we put out in Februaryish of each year, I've been doing a simple count of reports in the pile by the end of June, just to give us an idea of whether sightings are up or down. In previous years. it's been a good barometer, and accurately predicted the past several years' increases. A bit later than usual, I finally got around to doing the count (Geoff and I are busy on another project that you'll eventually hear about), and found that sightings are down. Way down. In fact, about 36% down from last year. What's more interesting is that the drop in numbers came in the summer, after a respectably active wintr and spring. This is most unusual, since summer is usually peak time for reports as people are out at cabins or the beach or campgrounds and see more nocturnal lights. Not so in 2005. After doing Errol's show on July 30, I sent out a release to media which got very little play. I thought it was the perfect long-weekend news story but it got buried and didn't go far. However, after a few days, the media needed filler and started calling in mid-week to do some in-depth. I was in fact scheduled for Canada AM on CTV, last week but that Air France thing bumped me and the story was pushed off the table. I thought that was it, until two nights ago on August 8, when I met a friend from a local radio station for coffee. He casually asked if there was anything new and I noted that I had just received a call from someone in southern Manitoba about a daylight UFO seen by him and two others, all fairly prominent in their community. My friend asked if I could go on as a fill-in call-in guest for the late-night talk show. I did the show, briefly noting the case plus a few others that had come in from our area, then went to bed. The next morning, the airwaves were abuzz as "UFOs invade Manitoba." The station had run my taped comments verbatim and used it in the morning, then afternoon newscast. It became a wire story across Canada. Then international. This morning, I did Canada AM on CTV, http://tinyurl.com/cb2vq [includes video clip of interview] pointing out that the UFOs have not gone away completely from Canada, mentioning cases from Newfoundland to BC, but noting numbers are indeed down. And that's how the genesis of a UFO story makes the news.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:32:01 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:30:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? - Boone >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:12:25 EDT >Subject: Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? >>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 03:24:35 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 15:20:34 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? ><snip> >>>If life is discovered on Jupiter, will I quit smoking? Probably >>>not. I fail to make the connection. >>You have to understand a particular mindset, Larry. >>Rev. Jerry Falwell has categorically said there is no life >>anywhere else in the universe. Why? Because it is not mentioned >>in the Bible, and if it existed it would be. If life is found >>elsewhere in the universe it will be a major problem for Rev. >>Jerry and his followers. >>Intelligent life is an even bigger problem for >>"fundamentalists", because intelligent life elsewhere could not >>know Jesus, and therefore would automatically be condemned to >>hell. >Rev. Billy Graham has said UFOs might be angels in the universe >thus not rejecting life in the universe. >Keyhoe's early books discussed how a number of establiahed >theologians Catholic and Protestant believed in life elsewhere >in the universe and that it is not incompatibel with Christian >faith. Thanks Brad for that. Falwell. Like someone elected him 'King of Reality'? The Scriptures don't mention iPods but here they are all over the planet spreading faster than a barroom rumor. Rev./Dr. Graham's statements I've heard about and I am looking for the audio and video. Family and friends are die-hard Billy Graham supporters and after he said that I got no more lip about UFOs. Glad he put that to rest in a venue they could live with. I'll go back and look for Keyhoe's research. I know on my own research calling priests, imams, rabbis etc. from the old countries they jumped all over my case for even asking them such a stupid question if there was other life in the Universe and whether it was visiting Earth. One Rabbi and a priest from Armenia said to me in no nonsense terms that if someone asks you if there's life in the Universe just ask " Why wouldn't there be? " and when someone asks if it's visiting Earth ask, " Why wouldn't they be?". Distance, power supply, mathmatical problem solving aren't good excuses anymore. Just 150 years ago it took longer to cross the U.S. than it takes to get from Earth to Mars nowadays. For Christians, life in outer space and aliens isn't a priority to what they're supposed to be focusing on reconcilliation with God through Jesus. Plain and simple. Once you do that so much gets revealed that it becomes a 'so what?' issue. Guys like Falwell are scary. What's scarier is that there are people dumb enough to believe them and their control antics. Never take someone's word for law when it involves believeing something you can't put on slab in a lab.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: Contactee Taboo - Harrison From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 00:47:53 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:36:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Harrison >From: Sheryl Gottschal <gottscha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:29:46 +1000 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:18:07 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo <snip> >>From what I observe the evidence keeps getting swept aside and For what its worth, I did not use the sentence above and I never said anything got swept aside when it came to investigating George Adamski and his claims. Please re-read my post at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/aug/m09-008.shtml >ignored for some reason. >Sheryl ******************************************** Regards Diane Harrison The Australian UFO Research Network http://www.auforn.com P.O Box 738 Beaudesert, 4285 Australia.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: James McDonald Papers In Australia? - Miller From: Scott Miller <scott_fridrich_miller.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 00:50:34 +1000 (EST) Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:42:04 -0400 Subject: Re: James McDonald Papers In Australia? - Miller Hi List, I just read Paola Leopizzi Harris', Interview With Betsy Mcdonald - Wife Of Dr. James Mcdonald Early Pioneer In UFO Research. (At the X-Conference April 23rd 2005), and found it fascinating. But I have a question on the following section. Source: http://www.paolaharris.it/betsy.htm [Begin quote]: "Paola: Who are some of the people he admired most in the field? Betsy MacDonald: I don't know. He worked in NICAP a lot. He liked Dick Hall. He admired Bob Wood. He was with Macdonald Douglas, you know. There were not too many people in the field then. Paola: What Years are talking here? Betsy MacDonald: He died in 1971 so it was the late 60's early 70's when he did his work. He did a lot of cases. He had gone to Project Bluebook when Project Bluebook closed. He stayed there a day or two and picked out about a hundred cases that he thought would be the best to study, with radar, multiple witnesses and so forth. So he has some cases when he died and there wasn't really anybody to do them. The only person that I gave the copies to be Australia but I never heard from him again. He was a scientist because Mac was counting on science to do it. Betsy MacDonald: Probably, but my husband was an independent scientist who was not tied in with any of the business interests or Corporations or outside interests, which influence people today. It was an earlier time. He still had to get grants. He Got a Navy grant. He had been in the Navy. He lost that grant doing UFO work. He lost when he went to Australia and it was made public. The Grant was dropped when in the late sixties when the Australian Newspapers reported that he was discussing UFOs with Australians. [End quote] I don�t have Ann Druffel's book Firestorm, but I was wondering if someone has a copy could one post the name of the person{s) who got James McDonalds papers taken back to Australia. Could that be Ufologist Paul Norman from the Victorian UFO Research Society or John W. Auchettl at Phenomena Research Australia? Or someone from one of these groups? I know James McDonald had a lot to do with these two groups when he was down our way, and if I am correct there was some talk in trying to get McDonald to take up a University appointment in Melbourne, Australia. These two groups had a lot to do with Dr J. Allen Hyneks trip to Australia & Papua New Guinea and Auchettl has a lot to do with
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Project Dream Time 2 Outback UFO Camping Trip From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 00:44:10 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:52:43 -0400 Subject: Project Dream Time 2 Outback UFO Camping Trip Project Dream Time 2 Outback Australia UFO Camping Tour 2006 http://www.auforn/PROJECT-DREAM-TIME2.html August 26Th To September 16Th 2006 21 day camping tour. Project Dream Time 2 is a trip which takes you to the top of Australia then down to the Red Center visiting some of the best known Australian UFO Hot Spots. The tour will leave from Brisbane, travel though to the Darling Down then out to Roma then on to the gateway of the Northern Territory up to the Gulf of Carpentaria finishing in Alice Springs. This camping trip is designed to get the best out of UFO Night Watching and Experiences. Those who joined us on Project Dream Time 1, know its when you least expect a UFO it just appears. The locations have been chosen from many years of collating UFO reports, location that have become known as UFO Hot Spots due to high UFO activity. We will camp overnight in places like Boulia best known for the mysterious Min Min lights and many UFO sightings. We will visit with local Aboriginal people share in their stories their experience while learning more about their culture. Guides are Robert Frola Editor of The Australasian UFOlogist Magazine and Diane Harrison National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network & Editor of Hard Evidence Magazine. Robert and I know this trip is going to be a fantastic experience and all will have a wonderful time. So be quick book now as we can only take 10 people on any one trip. Tour Itinerary - traveling over 7,000 klm Day 1. Brisbane - Roma Day 2. Roma - Winton? Day 3. Winton - Boulia Day 4 -5 Boulia - Camooweal Day 6. Camooweal - Borroloola, Gulf of Carpenteria Day 7 - 8 Borroloola - Matarank Day 9 -10 Mataranka - Renner Springs Day 11. Renner Springs - Wycliffe Well Day 12. Wycliffe Well - Devils Marbles Day 13 - 14 Devils Marbles - Alice Springs Day 15 - 16 - 17 Alice springs - Uluru Day 18 - 19 Uluru - Alice Springs Day 20. Alice Springs, For A Great Night Out Day 21. Flying Home from Alice For more details go to http:www.auforn.com ******************************************** Regards Robert Frola The Australian UFO Researcher Network http://www.auforn.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Filmmaker Documents 'UFO Cult' From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:02:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:02:30 -0400 Subject: Filmmaker Documents 'UFO Cult' Source: The Mooresville/Decatur Times - Mooresville, Indiana http://www.md-times.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=9722&format=html Wednesday August 10, 2005 Mooresville Filmmaker Documents 'UFO Cult' By Brian Culp bculp.nul-times.com Abdullah Hashem is still making movies, but this time the location is a little different and the subject much more serious. A year ago Hashem wrapped up production on the movie, Apache Tears, which used Mooresville and central Indiana for many of the scenes. Since then he has been working on a documentary about the Raelians, a religious group often called a cult, that believes the human race was started through genetic manipulation by extraterrestrials. Hashem hopes to discredit the group and ultimately cause it to disband. The Raelians first came to Hashem's attention several years ago when they claimed to have cloned a baby named Eve. They have never produced the child for genetic testing to show if this is true, according to various news reports. Hashem, a 2001 Mooresville High School graduate and IUPUI student, said it was then that he began following them in the news. Many of their activities, which Hashem says include brainwashing members and using sex as coercion to gain access to its members' finances, prompted him to take action. "I'm not a religious nut, but according to my beliefs, when people wear shirts that say there is no God, I have to do something," Hashem said. With some help from Joe McGowen, also a 2001 Mooresville graduate, Hashem decided to attend a recruitment seminar in Las Vegas, Nev., in May where he secretly filmed activities surrounding the event. Filming of the seminars is prohibited. McGowen actually signed up for the seminar, and Hashem said he was there for support. They witnessed people from all over the world professing their loyalty to Rael, a former French racecar driver and journalist who claims to have been visited by extraterrestrials in 1973. Rael, originally named Claude Vorilhon, says that the extraterrestrials returned several years later and took him to their planet where he met Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed. They told him that the religious figures were all part of the Elohim, but because humans couldn't understand their technology at the time, they allowed us to believe that the three were transcendental beings. Rael says that the aliens, called the Elohim, told him they started the human race through genetic manipulation. Because of technological advances, humans are nearly ready to meet the Elohim, but must first build an embassy in Israel were the Elohim can land. As McGowen and Hashem were being recruited, they said they watched highly sexual shows aimed at wooing prospective members, many of whom are disaffected from society for one reason or another. Rael teaches that sex of all kinds is good, Hashem said. "We talked to a lot of homosexuals who said they joined because it's the only religion not to have condemned them and they feel more comfortable there," Hashem said. While Rael embraces sexual expression, Hashem said they filmed Rael condemning gambling and other activities, but later followed him to a casino where they filmed him playing slot machines. Despite believing that the group is a menace to society, McGowen said that he had a hard time keeping his head during parts of the seminar. "You have really attractive women who are out of a lot of men's league, and they come up to you and touch you," McGowen said. "I was seduced by a couple of women and got in pretty deep." Hashem said he had to remind McGowen several times why they were there. While they were able to get close to Rael, many of the leaders of the Raelians were suspicious of Hashem and McGowen. "We were afraid of them and that they would find out," Hashem said. "Some of the leaders didn't trust us or talk to us, and one of the top guys seemed to be following us. I'm not sure that he was, but he would show up in odd places like when we were in (Las) Vegas on our own time." Since their undercover trip to the seminar, Hashem said that the Raelians have discovered his true purpose in attending the recruiting event. He said that he has received e-mails and phone calls threatening legal action. Hashem feels that he has his legal bases covered, however, and that the Raelians will be unable to prevent the release of his documentary, which he says contains highly damaging evidence. The documentary will also included footage of an interview Hashem will conduct with nationally known cult expert Rick Ross in New Jersey later in August. When contacted, Ross wouldn't comment on Hashem's project, but said that the Raelians, "aren't a good group." Hashem has said that they would keep the documentary under wraps, but only if Rael resigns and disbands the Raelians. "They tried to offer us money and compensation, but we don't want their money, we want them done," Hashem said. "We want to keep kids from being sucked in by this." McGowen agreed. "I wanted to do this because, though so many people look at this and know it is insane, they have more than 60,000 members," McGowen said. "That means people are joining them. I want this out there so that parents can see what's going on and have a chance to protect their kids." E-mail to the group's public relations representative was not returned in time for this story. The movie was funded in part by $11,000 given to Hashem from various producers who wanted him to make the movie, including Henrik Larsson. Larsson is a Swedish producer and actor and appears in a movie called "Ghost Rock," which can be found at local video rental stores. However Hashem is still looking for additional sources of funding to finish and distribute the movie. Hashem said anyone who would like to help can e-mail him at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 32 - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:06:37 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:06:03 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 32 - Balaskas >From: John Hayes <John.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:23:26 +0100 >Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 32 <snip> > UFO ROUNDUP >Volume 10, Number 32 >August 10, 2005 >Editor: Joseph Trainor >E-mail: Masinaigan.nul >Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ <snip> >DISCOVERY'S CAMERA NABS >GLIMPSE OF A SAUCER > On Tuesday, August 2, 2005, at approximately 3:15 >a.m. Eastern time, a TV camera aboard the space shuttle >Discovery captured an image of a descending saucer on the >night side of Earth. > "DirectTV Satellite Channel 376," showing live NASA >footage, "was broadcasting a shot from the shuttle of the >darkened Earth, where only the city lights could be seen >apart from the faint corona around the edge of the globe." > The original eyewitness said he "could not tell if it >was live feed or not." > "That went on for roughly five minutes from the time >I turned on, and then, suddenly, an extremely bright solid >white disc appeared in the lower portion of the screen and >shot inward, towards the Earth, at terrific speed, leaving >a tracer (a trail of light--J.T.) on the camera in its >wake." > "As soon as this happened, the feed went blank and >returned to the standard (NASA) map of the globe showing >the orbital path of the shuttle." > "It was definitely not space debris, was perfect in >shape, appeared to be self-luminous and moved at a >terrific velocity away from the camera, towards Earth, >getting smaller as it went." (Many thanks to Steve Wilson >Sr. for this news story.) <snip> Hi Everyone! In an off-List reply to James Smith earlier this month regarding some other UFOs in space related matters, I also asked him what he thought about this latest alleged UFO sighting in space which rense.com (see URL below) was asking if anyone had recorded. http://www.rense.com/general67/showd.htm James made an MPEG copy of this NASA "UFO" video and sent it to me. After viewing it carefully, I have to say that I do not agree with anything Steve Wilson Sr. said. What I saw on this video wasn't "definitely not space debris"; or that "it was perfect in shape"; or that it "appeared to be self-luminous", or that it "moved at a terrific velocity", or even that it was moving "towards Earth, getting smaller as it went.". Since even video images do not speak for themselves but are subject to interpretation that usually represents the witness' wishes or reflects his/her beliefs, it is for this reason to present other opinions too, especially by unbiased video experts, when including such UFO cases in your newsletter as examples of real UFO videos. Interestingly, James noted that there seemed to be lots of CCD effects with the shuttle's OBSS(?) video camera in the clip he sent to me which he suggested could be because the shuttle was flying near the South Atlantic Anomaly zone (which Project Magnet studied with aircraft in the 1950s). The Earth's magnetic field is extremely weak in this anomaly zone centered over southern Brazil. Astronauts and equipment are momentarily subject to high levels of radiation from fast moving postively charged particles everytime they pass through this zone in space close to the Earth's surface. What James also found interesting were the tiny white objects moving to and fro taken with the shuttle's SSRMS camera, one hour later. He correctly points out that without stereo video it is not possible to know for sure if these white objects in the daytime video are simply debris particles or something much bigger. He offered to share this other suspected space UFO video with me but I have already seen many of the best selected but still dubious and inconclusive videos clips taken from hundreds of hours of such NASA 'UFO' video footage to be distracted by when there is more compelling evidence for an ET/UT presence
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Secrecy News -- 08/10/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:04:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:52:19 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/10/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 78 August 10, 2005 ** AMERICAN WAR CASUALTIES (CRS) ** MILITARY RECRUITING AND RETENTION (CRS) ** CHEMICAL FACILITY SECURITY (CRS) ** AND MORE FROM CRS AMERICAN WAR CASUALTIES (CRS) American military casualties from the Revolutionary War to the present day are tabulated in a new report from the Congressional Research Service. Notable findings include these: ** During the period between the Revolutionary War and the Persian Gulf War, it was the Civil War that produced the most American fatalities, when Union statistics and Confederate estimates are taken into account. ** World War II was the first war in which there were more battle deaths than deaths from other causes such as accidents, disease, and infections. ** With a total of 382 in-theater deaths, 147 of which were battle deaths, the Persian Gulf War was the least costly war in terms of fatalities. ** The ongoing Operation Iraqi Freedom to date has produced more than four times the number of in-theater deaths than the Persian Gulf War (which lasted seven months). A copy of the CRS report was obtained by Secrecy News. See "American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Statistics," updated July 13, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf The Department of Defense issues news releases, often several per day, reporting the names of the latest American war casualties, almost all of whom are young men in their twenties, and the circumstances of their deaths. Current DoD news releases may be found here (email subscriptions are also available): http://www.defenselink.mil/news/ MILITARY RECRUITING AND RETENTION (CRS) Another Congressional Research Service report provides an overview of current military recruiting and retention rates. "Since the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, the United States has launched several major military operations which have dramatically increased the operations tempo of the military services, required the large scale mobilization of reservists, and resulted in significant battle casualties.... Many observers have expressed concern that these factors might lead to lower recruiting and retention rates, thereby jeopardizing the vitality of today's all- volunteer military." See "Recruiting and Retention: An Overview of FY2004 and FY2005 Results for Active and Reserve Component Enlisted Personnel," updated June 30, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32965.pdf The latest recruiting and retention rates for July 2005 were announced by the Defense Department on August 10: http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/2005/nr20050810-4393.html CHEMICAL FACILITY SECURITY (CRS) The consequences of a deliberate attack on a chemical facility could be severe, but the risks of such an attack occurring are "speculative" and "difficult to assess," the Congressional Research Service candidly states. An updated CRS report on the subject characterizes what is known about the problem, and summarizes options for dealing with it. See "Chemical Facility Security," updated July 29, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RL31530.pdf An article in the latest issue of American Journalism Review considers the uneven quality of media coverage of homeland security issues, including such matters as chemical plant security. It does not, however, address the tendency in some quarters to overstate particular threats or the use of fear as a policy driver. See "Short Attention Span" by Sherry Ricchiardi, American Journalism Review, August/September 2005: http://www.ajr.org/ AND MORE FROM CRS The Congressional Research Service, acting at the direction of the current congressional leadership, does not permit direct public access to its publications. The following CRS reports were obtained by Secrecy News anyway. "Islamist Extremism in Europe," July 29, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/terror/RS22211.pdf "Terrorist Screening and Brady Background Checks for Firearms," July 25, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/terror/RL33011.pdf "Missile Defense: The Current Debate," updated July 19, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL31111.pdf "The Exon-Florio National Security Test for Foreign Investment," July 15, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS22197.pdf "Structure and Functions of The Federal Reserve System," updated June 15, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS20826.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Magonia Supplement No. 58 From: John Harney <magonia.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:49:39 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:23:42 -0400 Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 58 The latest Magonia Supplement is a special issue consisting of a 10,000 word article by Hilary Evans on UFO abductees/contactees. (In Britain we don't make such rigid distinctions between them as do Americans, judging by the latest thread on this topic.) The html edition is now available at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: 'Explaining Vivid Memories Of Martian From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:32:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:28:43 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Explaining Vivid Memories Of Martian >>Source: The New York Times >>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/09/health/09alien.html >>August 9, 2005 >>Books on Science >>Explaining Those Vivid Memories Of Martian Kidnappers Another thoroughyly dishonest article from the New York Times. Maybe it would be a helpful learning experience for its "journalists" if more of them followed Judith Miller's example and did some jail time. >Where, exactly, do the green figures with the wraparound eyes >come from? From the deep well of pop culture, Dr. Clancy argues, >based on a review of the history of U.F.O. sightings,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:25:56 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:29:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? - White >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:12:25 EDT >Subject: Re: Will You Lose Your Religion? <snip> >Keyhoe's early books discussed how a number of establiahed >theologians Catholic and Protestant believed in life elsewhere >in the universe and that it is not incompatibel with Christian >faith. Jesus' self-assumed name "Son of Man" has always made me
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Unusual Designs At Area 51 From: Joe Held <informantnews.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:32:53 -0400 Subject: Unusual Designs At Area 51 Some images from Google Earth, one in particular is _very_ interesting. Take a look at: http://www.informantnews.com/pics3/googlearea51.html Any comments ont the Pentagram?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: 'Dragons' In The Tibet Sky - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:33:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:34:21 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Dragons' In The Tibet Sky - White <snip> >Source: The Epoch Times - New York >http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-8-7/31030.html >Dragons In The Tibet Sky The Epoch Times Anyone heard the reports of flying snakes in the area of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: James McDonald Papers In Australia? - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:49:19 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:40:51 -0400 Subject: Re: James McDonald Papers In Australia? - Hall >From: Scott Miller <scott_fridrich_miller.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 00:50:34 +1000 (EST) >Subject: James McDonald Papers In Australia? >I just read Paola Leopizzi Harris', Interview With Betsy >Mcdonald - Wife Of Dr. James Mcdonald Early Pioneer In UFO >Research. (At the X-Conference April 23rd 2005), and found it >fascinating. But I have a question on the following section. >Source: >http://www.paolaharris.it/betsy.htm >[Begin quote]: >"Paola: Who are some of the people he admired most in the field? >Betsy MacDonald: I don't know. He worked in NICAP a lot. He >liked Dick Hall. He admired Bob Wood. He was with Macdonald >Douglas, you know. There were not too many people in the field >then. >Paola: What Years are talking here? >Betsy MacDonald: He died in 1971 so it was the late 60's early >70's when he did his work. He did a lot of cases. He had gone to >Project Bluebook when Project Bluebook closed. He stayed there a >day or two and picked out about a hundred cases that he thought >would be the best to study, with radar, multiple witnesses and >so forth. So he has some cases when he died and there wasn't >really anybody to do them. The only person that I gave the >copies to be Australia but I never heard from him again. He was >a scientist because Mac was counting on science to do it. >Betsy MacDonald: Probably, but my husband was an independent >scientist who was not tied in with any of the business interests >or Corporations or outside interests, which influence people >today. It was an earlier time. He still had to get grants. He >Got a Navy grant. He had been in the Navy. He lost that grant >doing UFO work. He lost when he went to Australia and it was >made public. The Grant was dropped when in the late sixties when >the Australian Newspapers reported that he was discussing UFOs >with Australians. >[End quote] >I don�t have Ann Druffel's book Firestorm, but I was wondering >if someone has a copy could one post the name of the person{s) >who got James McDonalds papers taken back to Australia. Could >that be Ufologist Paul Norman from the Victorian UFO Research >Society or John W. Auchettl at Phenomena Research Australia? Or >someone from one of these groups? I know James McDonald had a >lot to do with these two groups when he was down our way, and if >I am correct there was some talk in trying to get McDonald to >take up a University appointment in Melbourne, Australia. These >two groups had a lot to do with Dr J. Allen Hyneks trip to >Australia & Papua New Guinea and Auchettl has a lot to do with >Col P. Corso. >Does the book give name? Scott, Nothing personal in what I am about to say; just commenting generally on the sad state of curremt Ufoolery. If people want to get straight information about UFO history, then I suggest that they subscribe to my Journal of UFO History for $28 to $30+ a year depending on location (see www.hallrichard.com); and/or buy Firestorm, and/or subscribe to excellent journals such as International UFO Reporter, (CUFOS). I have gone bankrupt in my efforts to get the truth out, so you may appreciate that I tend to don my 'grouchy old man' hat when people want good information but don't bother to support serious research work. I cover early UFO history from 1947 on, and am currently reprising the 1952 sighting wave; NICAP history; transcripts of historical programs; James McDonald (not MacDonald) writings; and especially the now all-but-forgotten pioneering work done by my friend and mentor, Maj. Donald E. Keyhoe. Jim McDonald lost that Navy contract thanks to a malicious personal attack by Phil Klass, the sweetheart of amoral debunkers. You would do well to obtain Firestorm, and get the full story. It is important UFO history. Jim's papers didn't go to Australia; they are at the University of Arizona Library thanks to Ann Druffel. Jim had contacts with a lot of people in Australia, one of whom was a scientist at CSIRO (Commenwealth Scientific Institute and Research Organization, or something close to that). I don't recall his name right now, but probably have correspondence about him in my files. I'm not sure how Corso factors into your message, but he clearly and obviously was, at minimum, an embellisher and having read his book, a teller of tall tales simply not to be believed. 'Rambo Corso' charging around Washington with his drawn .45 automatic, paranoid to the core, made a very amusing picture if
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Barker From: Darryl Barker <ufos.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:09:20 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:45:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Flying Triangle Mystery Deepens - Barker It's been an interesting ride watching everyone from the major U.S. media to the ufological community address or dismiss the flying triangle mystery. Most of you know about the January 5, 2000 police/flying triangle sightings. It appears that many are not aware of the long history of triangular-shaped UFOs dating back to the 1800s. Dave Marler of Illinois MUFON has done his homework. The common response that the current FT sightings are not worth examining is disappointing because to my knowledge, as well as others who have studied this particular slice of the UFO question, there is no easy explanation. KUDOs to Dave Marler of Illinois MUFON, Omar Fowler of U.K.'s Phenomenon Research Association, Peter Davenport and Peter Jennings, who had the insight to cover the January 5, 2000 case in his last special. Historical reports of FT sighting are available at: http://dbarkertv.com/FThistory.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: Contactee Taboo - Sheryl From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 06:30:16 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:47:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Sheryl >From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 00:47:53 +1000 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Sheryl Gottschal <gottscha.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:29:46 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:18:07 +1000 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo ><snip> >>>From what I observe the evidence keeps getting swept aside and >For what its worth, I did not use the sentence above and I never >said anything got swept aside when it came to investigating >George Adamski and his claims. Please re-read my post at: >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/aug/m09-008.shtml Diane, This was a general statement about the treatment of the evidence Adamski had for his contacts. It wasn't referring to your comments. He had a lot of evidence and I would recommend anyone
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:42:40 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:49:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Hall >From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:49:39 +0100 >Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >The latest Magonia Supplement is a special issue consisting of a >10,000 word article by Hilary Evans on UFO abductees/contactees. >(In Britain we don't make such rigid distinctions between them >as do Americans, judging by the latest thread on this topic.) >The html edition is now available at: >http://magonia.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ms58.htm John, Perhaps if you studied the history a little closer you would decide to agree with the Americans on this point. I lived through the 'contactee' era of the 1950s-60s and was involved in a lot of investigations of their claims (including Adamski, who seems to have more than nine lives among those with a will-to- believe that defies all common sense and reason). I have also been personally involved, rather deeply, in studies of 'abductees'. The two sets have almost nothing in common. To oversimplify only slightly, 'conactees' are messengers for those wonderful space beings who are so full of light and love for humanity. 'Abductees' (probably 95%) describe kidnappers and rapists.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: 'Dragons' In The Tibet Sky - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:43:19 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:11:09 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Dragons' In The Tibet Sky - Hatch >From: Amy Hebert <ahebert4.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:08:50 -0500 >Subject: Re: 'Dragons' In The Tibet Sky >>Source: The Epoch Times - New York >>http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-8-7/31030.html >>Dragons In The Tibet Sky The Epoch Times >>A photo of two peculiar dragon-shaped objects taken from a plane >>flying over Tibet's Himalayas piqued many users' interest when >>displayed on a Chinese website. The photographer is an amateur. ><snip> >Considering this photograph was taken from an airplane, it was >probably taken through a glass window. The alleged "dragons" >appear to be something within the interior of the plane >reflecting on the window at the time the photograph was taken >(perhaps a strap on the camera, on luggage or woven leather? on >the seat arm rests). >Note the white outlines around the alleged 'dragons' and the >line along the edge of the photograph or airplane window? Hi Amy. Maybe I lack imagination but I can't even see that. All I see are some clouds over a dark countryside. One cloud, on its left side near top of photo, splits looking like the mouth of an ugly fish, but thats about it. (How do those fish reproduce? Don't they scare each other away?) I'm not even reminded of the religious or popular figures that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: Contactee Taboo - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:00:41 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:13:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Hall >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 06:30:16 +1000 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 00:47:53 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Sheryl Gottschal <gottscha.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:29:46 +1000 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>>From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:18:07 +1000 >>>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>>From what I observe the evidence keeps getting swept aside and >>For what its worth, I did not use the sentence above and I never >>said anything got swept aside when it came to investigating >>George Adamski and his claims. Please re-read my post at: >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/aug/m09-008.shtml >Diane, >This was a general statement about the treatment of the evidence >Adamski had for his contacts. It wasn't referring to your >comments. He had a lot of evidence and I would recommend anyone >read Tim Good and Lou Zinsstags book, Adamski The Untold Story. >The second half of the book by Tim Good is entitled The >Investigation - An Examination of the Evidence. I found it most >fascinating and useful. Sheryl, A lot of evidence, eh? None of it withstood investigation. How do I know? Because in my years at NICAP I conducted quite a few investigations of his claims all over the country. We caught him in lie after lie. He was a mystical nobody who had written a science fiction story about life on other planets (copy in the Library of Congress, which I personally examined). Then when he began to realize just how gullible people could be, he converted this booklet, Pioneers Of Space, into alleged fact and ran with it. Exact same themes and ideas, but now based on his alleged personal contacts with aliens rather than his imagination. Also, I challenge anybody to read his three main books and analyze all the contradictions between books. From totally mute aliens who tried to communicate via symbols on the soles of their shoes to extremely garrulous beings who spun endless yarns as they sojourned through space and saw things that we now know with 100% certitude do not exist.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: Scientific Investigation Of 'Alien Bases'? - From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:12:32 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:17:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation Of 'Alien Bases'? - >From: Jason Gammon <LuckyHoodoo.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:01:27 EDT >Subject: Scientific Investigation Of 'Alien Bases'? >Scientific Investigation of Alleged "Alien Bases" >I often wonder why this area has not been picked up by a good >majority of researchers? >Assuming the UFO phenomena is indeed extraterrestrial in >nature, one might conclude that a type of base would be vital to >the occupants agenda. >Of course one may speculate that the occupants have the >technological capacity to travel from their place of origin to >our planet whenever the situation arises, without the need of a >base, but I feel this is an overlooked aspect of this phenomena. >One could even speculate possible areas of interest such as the >Moon, the ocean floor, or even certain moutain range. >I am interested in the opinions of other researchers regarding >this topic. Hello Jason: If we theorize that our planet is being surveilled by devices from afar, and accepting Einsteinian limits of distance and time ( no FTL travel ), then some sort of bases and stations within our solar system seem all but inevitable. Going a step further, and without any good evidence, I could suggest bases or facilities under the sea, on the Moon, in the asteroid belt etc. Its not so unreasonable _if_ you accept the first premises. If you reject any sort of space visitation, then it must all seem silly. I really doubt any sort of instant teleportation, and prefer the idea of fully robotic exploration over very long periods of time. This requires the least amount of Science Fiction and Hollywood baggage.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Re: Unusual Designs At Area 51 - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:19:46 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:25:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Unusual Designs At Area 51 - Ledger >From: Joe Held <informantnews.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:30:19 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Unusual Designs At Area 51 >Some images from Google Earth, one in particular is _very_ >interesting. Take a look at: >http://www.informantnews.com/pics3/googlearea51.html >Any comments ont the Pentagram? A Pentagram has 5 points, Joe. The photos look like they've been played with. The three runways making a triangle gets you just about all the wind directions with the cross-wind componant of wind no more than 22.5 degrees off the nose of your plane. They are laid out like this on airports all over the world. Some one was playing with the compass rose too. That's probably a hold out from the 50s.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 10 Filer's Files #33 - 2005 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:33:46 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:34:32 -0400 Subject: Filer's Files #33 - 2005 Filer's Files #33 =96 2005 George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International August 10, 2005 Web: www.georgefiler.comwww.nationalufocenter.com Sightings high in Canada and Crimea This week's files cover: Space Shuttle,Tenth planet found in our Solar System, intelligent design taught in schools. Solar flares on the sun could bring hurricanes. UFOs were seen over Arizona, California, Florida, New York, Illinois, North Carolina, Ohio, Texas, and Virginia. Many sightings were also reported in Argentina, Australia, Canada, Crimea, Ukraine, and the United Kingdom. Strange contrails over Venezuela. The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world and in space. Many people claim it is impossible for UFOs to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep an open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate each week. I personally chased a UFO over England while in the Air Force and know something strange is in our skies. Huge cylinder shaped UFOs are being reported around the world. Tenth planet found in Solar System NASA has announced the discovery of the "tenth" planet of the Solar system, that is one and half times the size of Pluto.George Ritter called to point out that Zecharia Sitchin had claimed that ancient Mesopotamian seals show there are actually twelve planets in our solar system. Sun and twelve planets on 3000 year old seal! The announcement, on July 30th 2005, that a new celestial body has been discovered made media news around the world; and because the reports were headlined "Astronomers Claim Discovery of 10th Planet", Sitchin's phone started to constantly ring=85 Some callers shouted "Congratulations!"; others, more cautiously, asked: "Is it Nibiru?" =96 "Nibiru" being the planet of which I had been writing and talking ever since my book The 12th Planet was published decades ago.Lacking many vital data except that it orbits the Sun at a very steep angle to the ecliptic (the orbital plane of Earth and other planets) and is now about 9 billion miles from us. When the Mesopotamian Epic of Creation (Enuma Elish) is treated, as I have suggested, as a sophisticated cosmogony and not as an allegorical myth, the origin and composition of a twelve member solar system become clear. While the existence of varied celestial objects including numerous moons of various planets have been recognized in the ancient texts (and depictions), only our Moon and only Pluto (once Saturn's moon) have been included in the count. Together with all the planets we know of today (including those discovered only in the past 150 years) and one more =96 Nibiru =96 the Sun's "family" added up to twelve. Such a solar system was depicted repeatedly on cylinder seals and monuments. One made famous by my writings is cylinder seal VA-243 in the Berlin Museum of Near Eastern antiquities, which shows the complete solar system with Nibiru passing between Jupiter and Mars when its orbit brings it back to our vicinity: The cylinder seal is only a little larger than an inch, engraved (as all such seals were) in reverse. The sizes of the planets shown can thus be considered only approximations, relative to each other. Even so, it is evident that Nibiru was deemed not only much larger than Pluto, but also than Earth. So is it Nibiru? Have astronomers now found the planet from which, according to my understanding of Mesopotamian and biblical texts and illustrations, astronauts had come to Earth some 450,000 years ago? Based on the sketchy information so far available, the answer is No. This regrettable answer stems, first of all, from comparing the information released regarding the new object and the ancient data concerning Nibiru. The latter was described as a radiating planet (i.e. one that has its own heat source and atmosphere), a planet that sustains life, home planet of the Anunnaki ("Those who from heaven to Earth came") =96 the biblical Nefilim. Z. Sitchin 2005 Reprinted by permission Are we all aliens?Panspermia is the theory that life originated in space and came to Earth aboard comets, not unlike the concept of Johnny Appleseed spreading seeds where ever he traveled. We now know that life can travel throughout the vast universe from one planet to another and sit dormant until it arrives in a place like Earth, where it awakes and flourishes. Comet Encke thanks to NASA Gravity causes the comets to travel from one planet to another bringing life. We now know that life can exist at the bottom of the ocean in 700 F degree vents, or in the coldest Antarctica ice, or even within tremendous nuclear radiation. Life wants to live and expand. President Clinton announced that rocks containing microbes traveled from Mars to Earth and may be part of the reason that life began on Earth, 3.8 billion years ago. Or so goes one aspect of a theory called panspermia, which holds that the stuff of life is everywhere and that we humans owe our genesis to a continual rain of foreign microbes. Large meteorites could carry even more sophisticated DNA. It means, simply, that we might all be aliens. One study, reported in the journal Science, shows that a space rock could successfully transport life between planets. Another group of researchers, reporting in Nature, found and revived bacteria hiding in New Mexican salt crystals for 250 million years proving they are nearly immortal and could travel for billions of years and revive. Sir Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe's found traces of life in the dust around distant stars and their theory is mathematically more likely than the likelihood of life evolving from a primordial soup. Panspermia's defenders argue that life could be almost anywhere in the cosmos and hitting Earth on a regular basis. This means we could have microbial ancestors, or even more evolved cousins every where. Many qualified scientists such as Louis Pasteur proposed that spontaneous generation of life could not have occurred on Earth. British physicist Lord Kelvin and others jumped on Pasteur's bandwagon and suggested that life might have come from space. In the 1970's, Wickramasinghe and Hoyle broadened the Panspermia theory, arguing that a continual rain of life-altering stuff from space -- including germs that arrive in cycles related to solar activity -- has affected the course of evolution. The seeds, they say, are still coming. http://www.space.com/searchforlife/aliens_all_001027.html Evolution and Intelligent Design Ed Burke writes, "When you get right down to it, evolution is as much a religion as intelligent design. You can prove micro- evolution, when species are isolated, but there is no evidence that species actually evolve into more advanced species. To accept Macro-evolution, you have to accept on faith, that this can actually happen". In fact if you look at what seems to happen over time with genetic defects, it seems that devolution is much more likely than any evolution. Entropy seems to work in biology as well as physics. Thanks to Ed Burke Colorado MUFON assistant State Director Our DNA points to Intelligent Design The discovery of DNA, (deoxyribonucleic acid) with all its implications of a very complicated genetic code creates additional evidence for intelligent design rather than theoretical evolution. The DNA helix must have a planner, a designer. You are thousands of times more complex than even the most sophisticated computer who needed a designer and engineers to build. Even then you also have the spark of life needed to grow! A well-known DNA scientist keeps encouraging me, who can't talk openly states, "The three most interesting genetic anomalies are Rah-factor, HIV, and delta-CCR5. Apes and primitives are Rah plus (+,+), while whites and Asians are close to 25% Rh minus (- ,-), just as if our ancestor were blonde alien (-,-) mixed with local (+,+) by Mendelian statistics. A slight selection against pregnancy by (-,-) women lowers that to 20%. If we had defective HIV in our bodies, we would get antisense resistance to modern HIV. Yet many chimps contain defective HIV, while we do not, at least until 1955 when it was transferred from monkeys to man. If we come from apes, why don't we see ancient HIV in our genome? The most interesting mutation is for HIV- resistance, found by looking for homosexuals without AIDS. They were all found in Scandinavia as "delta-32 CCR5". How to select for resistance to a virus which was not in man before 1955? Some people have shown that it might protect against smallpox or myxo, but why not in India or China where smallpox is rife? Why isn't it in apes, given the millions of years that an identical gene in apes was exposed to viruses? The reason is because both chromosomal copies must be deleted at once to give resistance, by a double-hit which is almost impossible randomly. Now we see that delta-32 CCR5 is found with a very recent origin in Finland-Mordovia, spread weakly to northern Russia and northern Europe, but not southern Europe, Africa, Asia, or elsewhere. Also the Ashkenazi Jews have many strange genes. The most obvious source of this mutation would be those tall blond visitors, who may have crossed with local women a few thousand years ago. Their progeny would go on to raise our scientific level over 5000 years. You can easily access recent information by searching for keywords on Medline/Pubmed at NCBI, say "Rh factor" or "delta-CCR5" crossed with other terms for specificity. The next time you see your blond friend, by all means offer to trade blood samples! Collect a drop in 90-mm sodium citrate then freeze it. I heard about RNase L from a conference here. Professor Paul Davies, from the Australian Center for Astrobiology at Macquarie University in Sydney, believes a cosmic greeting card could have been left in every human cell. The coded message would only be discovered once the human race had the technology to read and understand it. ************* California two helicopters chase UFO MODESTO -- R. David Anderson writes, "I know that this picture looks like something out of a Sci Fi thriller, but I think that I have an explanation of what was going on there. There was a lot of action going on at the time I snapped this photo. There were two helicopters flying around my residence on August 7, 2005, that prompted me to take the picture, because I felt that these helicopters were after something. You can see the lights of the two 'choppers in the picture, one of them was going in a circular motion and the other one was off to the right. In between the two helicopters there is a streak of white light. I think that this is a UFO. Both of the 'choppers have closed in on the UFO's location and caused it to move away. This again demonstrates how the military is able to track UFO's even at night and even if the UFO's are not visible to the unaided eye but the chases have been going on for several weeks now. Much of the night there were two helicopters that were moving about my residence in a circular path. When I took this photograph, both helicopters had moved to the south close to the horizon when they apparently "flushed" out the UFO. The UFO was only visible on the camera, which "sees" much more than is visible with the unaided eye. The size of the UFO looks small in comparison to the helicopters, but this could be misleading. Most of the UFO may have been dark, with only one light on the side. see www.UFObase.net Thanks to R. David Anderson Helicopter taken with night vision optics. Editor's Note: Military aircrews frequently use night vision goggles that increase their ability to see UFOs. I have talked to several pilots who were directed to chase the objects and given headings to follow, but no details of what they had seen. Night vision products will amplify the existing light several thousand times letting you clearly see in the dark. http://www.opticsplus.net/home/whatisnv Illinois photo FORT DE CHARTRES =96 The photo was taken last year in southern Illinois. The shutter speed was fairly high (1/250 of a second) so the object was moving fairly fast. The camera used was an eight mega pixel digital SLR. The zoom lens was set to 24 mm which is the equivalent of a 38 mm lens on a 35 mm camera. The full frame photo was reduced in size for email use but the close up section is at full definition. Neither photo was processed on the computer other than the mentioned resizing. Of course I do not know how close or far away the object was, so I can't guess as to its size. Thanks to Paul Sharp Minnesota orange glowing football INVER GROVE HEIGHTS -- My boyfriend and I were living with my parents in September of 2001 as the sun just went down, we decided to go for a walk on Greystone Drive. Right above Highway 494 was an orange glowing football. It was blinking, no sort of fading in and out, brighter, dimmer, brighter, dimmer. Then, it faded out completely, out of nowhere it flashed super bright, then flew off. It just got smaller and smaller extremely fast and was gone. My boyfriend and I were both struck dumb while this happened, and when it was over we both looked at each other for a second and said "did you see that?" Since it was right over the freeway, I don't think there is any way possible we were the only ones who saw it. North Carolina photos Alan Caviness and the Carolina Group Research Project continue to take UFO photos. The raw pictures are dark and usually have to be brightened to reveal any anomalous images but are otherwise left alone. Minimum editing is always the policy. We will continue to report any further sightings and findings as discoveries are made by our imaging team. A free CD is available for those who donate to these files. Thanks to Alan Caviness =96 Carolina Group Research Project New York sighting from roof MANHATTAN =96 The witness was on his roof dining with some friends on August 3, 2005, when he and his wife noticed the same thing at 10:53 PM, moving to the southwest, that was near an airplane flying low. So, it looked very different. He states, "I am an amateur astronomer and used to watching the sky, this was just like nothing I have seen before, mainly by its speed, and the fact that I saw it appear and disappear in the middle of the sky. It was kind of low maybe a 1000 feet and had a "body" of some sort of some yellowish color, with a very bright white flashing light, it move in a straight line, faster than anything I've ever seen. I was startled and told my wife and friend about it right away and the object disappeared in mid sky as quick as it had appeared, which made it really strange." Thanks to MUFON Case Management System "ttp://www.mufon.com/ Ohio sightings FOSTORIA -- George Ritter keeps taking video of UFOs near his home. He took a video of a relatively slow moving cylinder on August 4, 2005, over a nearby farm. The object appears to be moving toward the ground, from the first frame overhead to just over the roof of the building. Texas UFO photographed Lake of the Pines -- On August 2, 2005 my mother and I were at the lake and she saw a brilliant object to the southwest. I spotted it with her new 10 X 50 binoculars and it looked like an oblique disc. I handed her the binoculars and I began attempting to take pictures and got four pictures, and all but the last one were fairly overexposed. The picture I'm sending was taken at 8:06 P.M. with my Fuji film Finepix 2800 zoomed at 6 X optical and set to 2 megapixels. We didn't hear any sound from the object as it moved and would grow bright and then dim to the point we couldn't see it. My mother using binoculars said, "It's a perfect circle with five lights evenly spaced around its perimeter and two larger 'different' lights in the center that are not as distinct as the five outer." The lights were all the same color and incandescent. Several seconds after we lost sight of the object for the last time I saw and heard what I believe was a military jet traveling southeast not far from where we had last seen the object. Thanks to Darron images =A9 Darron and UFO Casebook online report. Virginia cylindrical object reappears NORFOLK =96 On August 4, 2005, the witness was on the way to his girlfriend's grandfather's house when the same object, witnessed eight days prior, was spotted again, in roughly the same location. It was transforming from a bright star into a UFO. The object was slowly moving. The mild amber flicker the object emitted however was all too familiar and fresh in my mind to take the chance of letting it go undocumented. I floored it, dropped my girlfriend off and sped back to my house to grab the camcorder and tripod! I flew back where there happens to be a park and set up to record twelve minutes of footage. The object moves very slowly and descends into the trees. Thanks to Brian Vike Australia bright light makes sharp turn QUEENSLAND -- On August 5, 2005 at exactly 5:45 AM, I was in the kitchen and the brightest white light I have ever seen bathed all the rooftops and treetops. It was extremely fast and all I could hear was a whoosh like a bullet going past. It seemed round but I couldn't really tell as it was so fast. Imagine a fighter jet going straight over your roof at mach 1 with it's landing lights pointing straight down, only silent. It spun me out from the speed and brightness. About 10-20 seconds later my whole chest was extremely sore for another 10-20 seconds. Then it stopped as quick as it came. I watch for activity in the sky as much as I can, so there may be more to come. I have had sightings in the past, "The film from Phoenix with a round formation above antennae on a hill" I saw the exact same thing when I was young I but it was in open sky. Thanks to Brian Vike Director HBCC UFO SYDNEY -- On August 6, 2005, at 7.57 PM, a single brilliant reddish/orange light was observed almost directly overhead by two witnesses. Initially the light looked like a bright planet, but it was way too bright. It was slightly larger than Mars and extremely bright. His flatmate said, "It looks like it's moving very slowly east." It passed a star on its left and proceeded eastwards. At this point in time it appeared to vary it's glow, sometimes fading quite a bit then re-ignighting the brightness to very bright. There was no pattern to this variance, unlike any aircraft. The object turned sharply north, and I called a friend who did not get to see it. This movement was observed over a 3-5 minute period. Diagram can be viewed at: "ttp://www.hbccufo.org/.php?name=3DNews =3Darticle =3D2945Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO BURKE MOUNTAIN -- Numerous white and green strobe lights were observed on August 5 and 6, 2005, between 9 PM, and midnight both nights. The green strobe lights flashed near hydro lines around and on Burke Mountain. I aimed my video camera at the mountain and just let it run. There were numerous small planes apparently flying overhead to watch the fireworks. One small plane caught my attention as it seemed to be glowing yellow all over with a red flashing strobe on top. I took a quick look through my binoculars and noticed it seemed to have black rectangular windows along the side and the red light on top was huge. It was headed east about the same altitude and speed as the rest of the aircraft but the video tape showed a flying pie plate and the lower portion was wider. The windows were evenly spaced all around the ship. I was unable to see anything within. I could not see any wings or tail and most passenger planes fly much higher and they usually have the window lit up from within. This craft was flying about 1300 feet and was only 30 to 40 feet long. Thanks to Brian Vike Argentina: three cows found dead SAN JAVIER -- Three bovines were found dead in a very spectacular and similar manner. San Javier police accompanied by veterinarian personnel and photographers, found three cows. Two cows were found 50 meters a part that belonged to Erberto Malaspina, Development Commissioner for Cubanea. The third was found in a field located some 20 kilometers away on the property of Oscar Garrone. The animals had similar incisions and eyes, ears, tongue, jawbone and genitalia were missing. No signs of bleeding were detected in any of the cases nor indications of tearing in the missing parts of the body that indicate predator activity. Nor were there any signs that the animals were slain to use their meat, as is the case with poaching. Thanks to Rio Negro On Line - "ttp://rionegro.com.ar/arch200508/05/v05n08.php Canada strange flashing lights TORONTO -- Agnes Sroczynski reports, that on July 30, 2005, about 10:30 PM, I went out on my friend's balcony with her and her nephew. We witnessed several strange objects in the sky, that were too high up and difficult to see. Then I noticed an object hovering lower in the clouds, at about 2000 feet or less, flashing a white light sporadically. It took my friends a moment to find it, but as soon as they saw it, the nephew ran inside to grab binoculars. He has the sharpest vision of the three of us, and was able to make out up to three lights. Through the binoculars, I saw that this object appeared silvery, metallic, and disc-shaped. It was smaller than the discs that I'm accustomed to seeing. At one point, it rose ever so slowly by a few metres, and stayed there until we went inside. We observed it for about fifteen minutes. It was in the sky for so long that I left to go home before it vanished! This was in the Flemington Park area of Toronto which, once again, seems to be a particularly active location for strange phenomenon. Thanks to Agnes Sroczynski CRESTON, BRITISH COLUMBIA --The witness was looking at a clear sky filled with stars August 1, 2005, five minutes to midnight. . Suddenly he noticed an orange fireball shaped object appear from the south. After observing for a few seconds it suddenly split into two objects of the same. The second one stopped and was hovering as the main piece continued along for a short distance and it to stopped. As the witness watched, both objects would appear to get dimmer, then flare up to their original brightness. Finally both objects darted towards the ground and into the distance very quickly until they finally vanished. One heading eastward and the other towards the north/northeast. The witness told me the two orange objects sat hovering for a minute and a half and very low to the tree-line. Thanks to Brian Vike KEEFER LAKE =96 Brian Vike writes, "This is a major sighting and reports are popping up from all over the country side. On July 20, 2005, near Cherryville, BC three witnesses spotted four cylindrical objects around noon. One witness was able to capture the event on film, but sending the file has been a bit of a challenge, however when viewed frame by frame it becomes even more spectacular. It appears to be two pulsing objects definitely separated in the center (hence the black stripe) and dark lights, or a shimmer effect seems to appear above each orb as these dark spots transfer from one orb to the other. As the dark spots transfer the orbs appear to alternate in size and get larger for a few frames before transferring back to the other orb. It was a hot day, clear and cloudless with an occasional slight breeze. Kelowna is the closest major airport about 100 km away. They came from the north over Railroad Creek Valley, between Dome and Yeoward mountains, then turned due west before getting over the camp. They were about 2 to 3 miles away at 10 to 12,000 feet altitude. They were visible for 10 minutes altogether but were dead silent. The objects were mainly white or very shiny metallic, when viewed frame by frame you can see that the big object is actually two white tank like objects and you can see blue sky between the objects as it seems to pulse. There are two black spots that appear to alternate back and forth between the two objects. When the black spots appear above and below the object, the two objects seem to grow in size. During the time that the spots are on the individual tanks and the other one appears to shrink in size. You can see the black dots as they move back and forth. They moved steadily and deliberately. There was no up and down movement. Each one was at a slightly different altitude and approach before veering to the west. The strange part was the silence of their passing and no contrails . Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HB CC UFO Research www.hbccufo.com Phone 250 845 2189 email: hbccufo.nul KAMLOOPS, B.C. -- Shelley writes, "I am not sure exactly what this is. The photo was taken in my front yard in on July 8, 2005 in Kamloops, British Columbia, Canada. Thanks to Shelley and Skywatch-International Web Site "ttp://www.skywatch- international.org/ Editors Note =96 This photo is very unusual for a UFO and it needs further evaluation. Korea Herald reports MT. BAEKDU -- Tourists report UFO sightings in North Korea in recent months. Yonhap News reports a Chinese man took a picture of a round-shaped object hovering over a waterfall at the highest mountain on the Korean Peninsula on July 8. The mountain, located on the border between North Korea and China, is the venue for planned inter-Korean military talks later this year. A few South Korean tourists yesterday reported their UFO experiences to the news agency and posted their own pictures on the Internet. Lee Man-wook, a member of Korean Photographer`s Expedition for Scenic Spots, posted his photo on an online gallery for specialized photographers, which depicts a UFO flying over the apex of the mountain. Lee shot his photo on July 19. Yoon Tae-woong, a Shinhan Bank employee, told the news agency that he found a UFO in his wife`s photograph, taken in June. Copyright 2002~2004 Digital Korea Herald. All rights reserved "ttp://www.koreaherald.co.kr/servlet/cms.article.view?tpl=3Dprint =3DNational =3D/img/pic/ico_nat_pic.gif =3D200508040008 Crimea UFO wave CRIMEA -- Numerous UFOs keep over flying Crimea Autonomous Republic, South of Ukraine, in this hot UFO summer on Saturday evening August 6, 2005, and 7. There have been incredible UFO sightings with at least a dozen reported. I saw an amazing spectacle amid stars myself! There have been numerous UFO sightings over Crimea peninsula in the second half of July 2005 and in early August 2005. SIMFEROPOL -- Victor Alexandrovich Zdorov while driving his firm's Lada car east of the city, in the middle of July saw the disk-shaped object hovering over the pine forest water reservoir, incredibly, during daytime. Zdorov's drawn sketch shows a metallic disk with a high central dome and broader, protruding flat bottom unit. The witness's car was malfunctioning since he appeared "under emanation" from the alien craft, as he asserts. He states that road incidents usually happen in places where UFOs were hovering over not long times before. KOMSOMOL'SKOYE -- A spectacular UFO shaped like whirligig or humming-top: in a form of high cone installed on the other cone between July 11 and 17, 2005. The conic forms were vertically elongated. This UFO was reportedly hovering, at least, for several minutes east of Simferopol' Airport. Incredibly, Zdorov states that entities from this arrived craft entered into contact with him during daytime, while he was in his office in Komsomol'skoye, and they are scaly reptoid or lizard-like beings with 4 fingers. Thanks to Dr. Anton A. Anfalov, Ph.D Ukraine bright lights ALUPKA -- About July 17, 2005, UFO researcher Artyem A. Benda in a hamlet west of Yalta, saw two bright over flights of UFOs in the evening beyond the mountains over the Black Sea. The UFOs were emitting very constant bright light near the famous mountain Ai'-Petri, where numerous UFO sightings are reported on an annual basis. Thanks to Dr. Anton A. Anfalov, Ph.D U. K. giant flying building UFO ASHBURTON, DEVON =96 Andrew Bell writes, "Three witnesses report seeing an amazing L-shaped building complete with three balconies at the rear flying at only fifty feet at 30 mph at 8 PM.. A 47 year old mechanic reports that below the balconies were two mesh dishes shaped similar to butterfly wings, pulsing a blue/purple light, that seemed to be propelling the craft. Underside we saw three white lights with huge pipes between them. There were two lights at the rear and one light at the front. Also, every straight edge was like a fluorescent tube and the craft looked as if it was constructed of yellow concrete and emitted a heavy electrical humming noise as it passed over about fifty feet in the air. The witnesses estimated the craft was 120 meters long and 40 meters wide as they watched for 15+ minutes. It was 40 meters tall at the front for 80 meters and the final 40 meters was 80 meters tall. Thanks to Andrew Bell Venezuela shuttle spots strange contrails Project Prove reports: "STS-114 lifted off from Kennedy Space Center, on 26 July 2005, has accomplished an inspection and manual repairs to of the heat shield during three spacewalks. Discovery carried over 15 tons of equipment and supplies to the International Space Station. SS-114 landed successfully on August 9th, but NASA announced the grounding of all flights until repairs can be made. At 4:28 PM, CDT (21:28 GMT), on August 1, 2005, the Shuttle/Station complex was orbiting over Venezuela, in northern South America. The INCO seemed to notice something amongst the clouds below, and zoomed in for a better look with its camera. The first try "missed", so he backed out, moved the camera a bit, and tried again. What he found is what we call a Chemtrail pattern. This is the best frame captured from the original VHS tape recorded live at the time. Notice that the lines appear to enter, or go beneath, the cloud bank at top. There is NO WAY that jet contrails would be visible from this altitude. Imagine something only a few feet (or meters) wide being seen from over 220 miles (350 km) distance. I think we can also rule out the possibility that these parallel lines are natural cloud. In all my years of watching televised space flight, never have I seen a natural cloud pattern similar to this. http://www.projectprove.com/Arts/114Ch/114Ch.php Please Donate to Filer's Files to receive CD So you won't miss a single breaking news story or the increased evidence for UFO and life in the universe. 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 From: Matthew James Didier <matthew.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 07:52:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:06:53 -0400 Subject: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 [Non-subscriber post] Source: http://www.psican.org/messagecentre/viewtopic.php?t=453 08-11-05 Phil Klass, senior editor at Aviation Week and Space Technology for 35 years, fellow of CSICOP, and arch sceptdebunker of UFO phenomena has passed at the age of 86. Interestingly enough, Klass, despite his editorial job, was not a pilot which led many to 'question' his authority on much... especially his interest in Ufology. His stances on many issues within paranormal studies were untenable at best. His constant whining and bothering of many Ufologists was legendary... To the end, Klass was the epitome of the word "Sceptdebunker" and set a standard for many who've tried to follow in his footsteps. Jim Moseley of Saucer Smear fame put it best when he said Ufology needed Klass as "Every great religion needs it's Satan." Now that the original Satan is gone, I'm sure another will attempt to rise in his place... but no one will match the status that Klass attended. To give "Satan" his due, though, at least Klass showed up to the party. He attended many UFO conventions and even lectured at a few (on the side of sceptdebunkerisms) unlike many of his colleagues in CSICOP. Klass will undoubtedly be sorely missed by a small few in Ufology, and his passing will also, undoubtedly, be celebrated by an equally small contingent... but in the end, I do believe the majority in the field will realise with his passing, the study has reached the end of an era. -- -- -- -- -- -- As a side note, Klass even made a small contribution to my own ghost site with an article based on "The Klass Kurse". See http://www.torontoghosts.org/scienceandklass.htm The Last Will And Testament Of Philip J. Klass: To ufologists who publicly criticize me... or who even think unkind thoughts about me in private, I do hereby leave an bequeath: The UFO Curse: No matter how long you live you will never know any more about UFOs than you know today. You will never know any more about what UFOs really are, or where they come from. You will never know any more about what the U.S. Government really knows about UFOs than you know today. As you lie on your own death-bed, you will be as mystified about UFOs as you are today. And you will remember this curse. __________________________________________ Matthew James Didier - Founder of the Toronto Ghost and Hauntings Research Societies Scientia est Potentia http://www.torontoghosts.org/ matthew.nul ----- "Phil died at his home in Maryland last night, after a long
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Unusual Designs At Area 51 - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:20:38 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:13:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Unusual Designs At Area 51 - Shell >From: Joe Held <informantnews.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:30:19 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Unusual Designs At Area 51 >Some images from Google Earth, one in particular is _very_ >interesting. Take a look at: >http://www.informantnews.com/pics3/googlearea51.html >Any comments ont the Pentagram?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: 'Dragons' In The Tibet Sky - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:27:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:15:15 -0400 Subject: Re: 'Dragons' In The Tibet Sky - Shell >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:33:29 -0400 >Subject: Re: 'Dragons' In The Tibet Sky <snip> >Anyone heard the reports of flying snakes in the area of >Germany? Going by the name 'tatzelwurms'? (Reputedly not >aerodynamic flyers, wingless.) The tatzelwurm is a semi-mythical snake or legless lizard said to inhabit the mountains of southern Germany. I've talked to friends in Bavaria who have heard the tales. They are not said to fly, but to jump, thus their other name "springwurm". I think they are also supposed to be found in Switzerland. Reminds me of the stories about hoop snakes here in the American south. Heuvelmans published a rather unconvincing photos supposed to be of one, but it looks more like a carved stick of wood.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Nick Pope Interview Metro Cafe From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:17:13 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:11:39 -0400 Subject: Nick Pope Interview Metro Cafe Source: Metro Cafe - London, UK http://tinyurl.com/7vv85 August 10th, 2005 Nick Pope by Andrew Williams Nick Pope was the head of the Ministry of Defence's UFO Project from 1991 until 1994. He went on to write several sci-fi books and is a regular on the UFO convention circuit - lecturing all over the world about his time as the MoD's very own 'Fox Mulder'. Civil servant Pope still works for the MoD but is reluctant to 'go into details' about his job specifics. What did your job as head of the MoD's UFO Project entail? I had been in the MoD since 1985 and did various things - they move you around every three years - when they suddenly asked me to head the UFO Project. I had no previous interest in UFOs, which was probably the best way to come into that job. What did you do every day? We researched and investigated the UFO mystery to see if reports of UFOs suggested anything of any defence significance. We looked at whether they posed a threat to Britain and if the things that were being reported were cause for concern. And what did you conclude? That 95 per cent of it was just misidentification - aircraft lights, weather balloons, meteors, satellites, etc. But there was a five per cent core of things that defied conventional explanation. I had UFOs reported by trained observers, such as pilots and military personnel, plus visual sightings backed up by radar which is always interesting. You've said you started off quite sceptical but after three years in the job came to believe that aliens exist. What evidence convinced you? Yes, I came out of the job convinced that some UFOs might be extra-terrestrial. There isn't proof but there is some intriguing evidence. The best example is Britain's most famous UFO case - the Rendlesham Forest incident of 1980. Essentially, a UFO landed between two military bases; all the witnesses were military, three 'landing' indentations were found in the clearing in the forest and a Geiger counter showed the radiation readings in the area were ten times higher than normal. That really made me think there was hard evidence of UFOs visiting Britain. Two years ago, a US military police officer said he was responsible for it but I very much doubt he is. There are a lot of people who want to write themselves into the story retroactively and it doesn't wash. Do you believe people have been abducted by aliens? I looked at about 100 cases and I'm puzzled. The people involved aren't after publicity or money for their stories, most of them run a mile if you try to involve them in media projects. There have been scientific studies into the people who make these claims and the conclusions suggest they believe what they say happened really did happen. That doesn't mean it took place in the physical universe, of course. Have you found any physical evidence? No. Some people claim they have been abducted and implanted with an alien tracking device. If I can recover one of these, I can prove the mystery definitively. Until I get one, I don't have anything I can take to the scientific community. It would be foolish to write off these claims just because of scepticism. You should investigate claims no matter how extraordinary they seem and that has always been the view of the MoD. Presumably, you're investigating these tracking devices in your spare time? Yes. All my research is now in a private capacity. I had the most interesting job in the country. After three years of that, I couldn't turn my back on it. Is there anything you remain unconvinced by? I was drawn into just about every strange paranormal phenomenon you could imagine. I had people phoning me up offering to become psychic spies for the MoD, tracking Russian submarines or finding hidden caches of drugs with their minds. I used to set them a test. I would hide an object in my flat and challenge them to say what the object was and tell me where I had put it. Sadly, none of them managed it. Had one come up with the answer, I would have taken it further. You have to keep an open mind. 60 SECONDS EXTRA!: People freely admit to making 'landing marks' in crop circles for a laugh. Do you think there are any genuine cases? Most of it is just people having a bit of fun. I talked to some people who made the formations and they consider themselves artists and their formations as conceptual art - with some of the art being the reaction they provoke from ufologists and the media. Again, though, I look at a tiny percentage of them and think, 'Well I wonder if extra-terrestrials weren't involved.' 60 SECONDS EXTRA!: Everyone has an idea of what aliens look like, which is a recent cultural phenomenon. Why is that? Why do many 'abductees' give similar descriptions? The simple answer is that that's what aliens really look like. There's a possibly more complex answer regarding how the image of an alien with grey skin and large almond eyes has become part of the popular culture so we can't rule out the possibility it may have influenced some people's abduction stories. Just about all the abductees who have taken a lie-detector test, though, have passed the tests with flying colours. Aliens have to look like something - so why not that? 60 SECONDS EXTRA!: You also investigated cattle mutilations. South America was plagued by the so-called 'goat sucker' phenomenon (supposedly abandoned alien creatures which look like green kangaroos and kill sheep). Does Britain have its own goat sucker infestation? I liaised with the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and they had one or two strange reports of mutilated cattle but they tended to write everything off as a 'dog attack'. It was easier for them to write that from an insurance point of view rather than say the livestock had been savaged by extra- terrestrial entities. I honestly don't know about the goat suckers. I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me that we have them in Britain. 60 SECONDS EXTRA!: Scotland has the highest concentration of UFO sightings in the world - why is that? I have no idea. From time to time, there are various UFO hot spots. In the 1960s, it was Warminster, now it's Scotland - a town called Bonnybridge in particular. Sometimes it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Sometimes the local tourist office want to promote their particular town. The No.1 hotspot during my time was London. That might sound strange as people have this
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:44:45 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:15:52 -0400 Subject: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder I, like many British ufologists, are intrigued by the interview with Nick Pope, which appeared in this morning's 'Metro' newspaper, which is distributed free to commuters at rail and Underground stations in London. Describing him in terms which we have become used to as "the [Ministry of Defence's] very own Fox Mulder, it begins: Q: "What did your job as head of the MoD's UFO Project entail?" A: "I had been in the MoD since 1985 and did various things - they move you around every three years - when they suddenly asked me to head the UFO Project. I had no previous interest in UFOs, which was probably the best way to come into that job." Q: "What did you do every day?" A: "We researched and investigated the UFO mystery to see if reports of UFOs suggested anything of any defence significance. We looked at whether they posed a threat to Britain and if the things that were being reported were cause for concern." I'd just like to ask Mr Pope: when approached about the job did the interviewing panel say, "Mr Pope, this job involves running the Ministry's UFO Project"? If not, what exactly did they say? And in response to the second question, exactly what proportion of your time at the 'UFO desk' was involved with investigating
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: James McDonald Papers In Australia? - From: Keith Basterfield <uforesearchersa.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:21:58 +1000 (EST) Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:06:54 -0400 Subject: Re: James McDonald Papers In Australia? - >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:49:19 +0000 >Subject: Re: James McDonald Papers In Australia? Richard Hall wrote: >Jim had contacts with a lot of people in Australia, one of whom >was a scientist at CSIRO (Commenwealth Scientific Institute and >Research Organization, or something close to that). I don't >recall his name right now, but probably have correspondence >about him in my files. I believe this would have been Dr Michael J Duggin, then of the CSIRO. I have recently written a piece on the Australian CSIRO and UFOs, including some info on Duggin. The peice may be read at: http://disclosure.freewebpage.org Click on "Individual Government Departments" and then CSIRO. Happy reading.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Contactee Taboo - Sheryl From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:04:07 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:11:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Sheryl >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:00:41 +0000 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 06:30:16 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>This was a general statement about the treatment of the evidence >>Adamski had for his contacts. It wasn't referring to your >>comments. He had a lot of evidence and I would recommend anyone >>read Tim Good and Lou Zinsstags book, Adamski The Untold Story. >>The second half of the book by Tim Good is entitled The >>Investigation - An Examination of the Evidence. I found it most >>fascinating and useful. > >Sheryl, > >A lot of evidence, eh? None of it withstood investigation. How >do I know? Because in my years at NICAP I conducted quite a few >investigations of his claims all over the country. We caught him >in lie after lie. He was a mystical nobody who had written a >science fiction story about life on other planets (copy in the >Library of Congress, which I personally examined). > >Then when he began to realize just how gullible people could be, >he converted this booklet, Pioneers Of Space, into alleged fact >and ran with it. Exact same themes and ideas, but now based on >his alleged personal contacts with aliens rather than his >imagination. >Also, I challenge anybody to read his three main books and >analyze all the contradictions between books. From totally mute >aliens who tried to communicate via symbols on the soles of >their shoes to extremely garrulous beings who spun endless yarns >as they sojourned through space and saw things that we now know >with 100% certitude do not exist. >Adamski: Liar, fraud, con-man. Hi Dick, Thanks for your insights. I'm sure what you say is accurate but Tim Good's investigation into Adamski finds there is something of value in his case, so even more confusion reigns I guess. Anyway, there's always more than one perspective to everything so we should check them all out. Good and Zinsstag's book may not be easy to get these days so I thought I'd reproduce some of what he said in another email. I think he remained fairly objective in his investigation so he's probably a good source to read. One thing that Good does say in his introduction is "that the difficulty with accepting Adamski's claim was the proliferation and diversity of UFO occupants, some who look like nothing on Earth, reported since the time of Adamski". I have to agree this is a good objection to his case, at least at first. However, the approach follows a certain scientific thinking, especially of that era, that all organisms evolve as a direct result of their environment so anything ET should be very different from an Earth human. I can see how this would stick like fly-paper, especially back then since UFO researchers wanted so badly that the subject be taken seriously by scientists. Just this one point alone would have been enough to shut the door to Adamski whose story appeared to be in opposition to this goal. There seemed little room for alternative answers as to why very human looking ETs might exist. ----- A thought about the 50s and 60s I was only a kid then but I can imagine myself in that time and place. To be a UFO researcher who had toiled and sweated under the false notion that if only science would give the subject a fair hearing it would then be taken seriously and then something at last might change. All the frustration and effort of people not listening, the ridicule by family and friends for spending so much time studying ET fairy tales, the ever-growing gap between integration and acceptance of the UFO subject and the promise of it's impact on society, compared to what the fringe dwellers with crazy stories of space brothers would do to that acceptance. After all that was absurd and in contradiction to scientific models. Oh yes, one would be very tempted to slam the door shut on those stories. I came across the same attitude in 1988 when I attended my first UFO meeting but this time it was projected towards abduction reports. UFO researchers were having the same hard time getting their heads around them, not knowing what to do with them really. Then I discovered this attitude was world wide. I still find abduction reports challenging but I've come to appreciate the short comings of my own mind and it's protective mechanisms. I think we may have seen the complete rejection of abduction reports too if they involved human looking ETs.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: James McDonald Papers In Australia? - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:41:38 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:15:35 -0400 Subject: Re: James McDonald Papers In Australia? - Chalker >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:49:19 +0000 >Subject: Re: James McDonald Papers In Australia? >>From: Scott Miller <scott_fridrich_miller.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 00:50:34 +1000 (EST) >>Subject: James McDonald Papers In Australia? >>I just read Paola Leopizzi Harris', Interview With Betsy >>Mcdonald - Wife Of Dr. James Mcdonald Early Pioneer In UFO >>Research. (At the X-Conference April 23rd 2005), and found it >>fascinating. But I have a question on the following section. >>Source: >>http://www.paolaharris.it/betsy.htm >>[Begin quote]: >>"Paola: Who are some of the people he admired most in the field? >>Betsy MacDonald: I don't know. He worked in NICAP a lot. He >>liked Dick Hall. He admired Bob Wood. He was with Macdonald >>Douglas, you know. There were not too many people in the field >>then. >>Paola: What Years are talking here? >>Betsy MacDonald: He died in 1971 so it was the late 60's early >>70's when he did his work. He did a lot of cases. He had gone to >>Project Bluebook when Project Bluebook closed. He stayed there a >>day or two and picked out about a hundred cases that he thought >>would be the best to study, with radar, multiple witnesses and >>so forth. So he has some cases when he died and there wasn't >>really anybody to do them. The only person that I gave the >>copies to be Australia but I never heard from him again. He was >>a scientist because Mac was counting on science to do it. >>Betsy MacDonald: Probably, but my husband was an independent >>scientist who was not tied in with any of the business interests >>or Corporations or outside interests, which influence people >>today. It was an earlier time. He still had to get grants. He >>Got a Navy grant. He had been in the Navy. He lost that grant >>doing UFO work. He lost when he went to Australia and it was >>made public. The Grant was dropped when in the late sixties when >>the Australian Newspapers reported that he was discussing UFOs >>with Australians. >>[End quote] >>I don't have Ann Druffel's book Firestorm, but I was wondering >>if someone has a copy could one post the name of the person{s) >>who got James McDonalds papers taken back to Australia. Could >>that be Ufologist Paul Norman from the Victorian UFO Research >>Society or John W. Auchettl at Phenomena Research Australia? Or >>someone from one of these groups? I know James McDonald had a >>lot to do with these two groups when he was down our way, and if >>I am correct there was some talk in trying to get McDonald to >>take up a University appointment in Melbourne, Australia. These >>two groups had a lot to do with Dr J. Allen Hyneks trip to >>Australia & Papua New Guinea and Auchettl has a lot to do with >>Col P. Corso. >>Does the book give name? >Scott, >Nothing personal in what I am about to say; just commenting >generally on the sad state of curremt Ufoolery. If people want >to get straight information about UFO history, then I suggest >that they subscribe to my Journal of UFO History for $28 to $30+ >a year depending on location (see www.hallrichard.com); and/or >buy Firestorm, and/or subscribe to excellent journals such as >International UFO Reporter, (CUFOS). >I have gone bankrupt in my efforts to get the truth out, so you >may appreciate that I tend to don my 'grouchy old man' hat when >people want good information but don't bother to support serious >research work. I cover early UFO history from 1947 on, and am >currently reprising the 1952 sighting wave; NICAP history; >transcripts of historical programs; James McDonald (not >MacDonald) writings; and especially the now all-but-forgotten >pioneering work done by my friend and mentor, Maj. Donald E. >Keyhoe. >Jim McDonald lost that Navy contract thanks to a malicious >personal attack by Phil Klass, the sweetheart of amoral >debunkers. You would do well to obtain Firestorm, and get the >full story. It is important UFO history. Jim's papers didn't go >to Australia; they are at the University of Arizona Library >thanks to Ann Druffel. I agree this is important UFO history. The story is told well in Ann Druffel's book, although some errors do creep into the Australian section, which I have drawn to Ann's attention. Paul McCarthy's thesis: Politicking & Paradigm Shifting (1975) also tells it well. As Dick indicates McDonald's papers are at the Uni. of Arizona. Copies of various parts of course have circulated widely. Courtesy of CUFOS I got copies of McDonald's Australian material, particularly his journal notes. >Jim had contacts with a lot of people in Australia, one of whom >was a scientist at CSIRO (Commenwealth Scientific Institute and >Research Organization, or something close to that). I don't >recall his name right now, but probably have correspondence >about him in my files. ><snip> I believe the CSIRO scientist in question was Dr. Mike Duggin, who was closely working with Australian Defence scientist & analyst Harry Turner. See my UFO Sub Rosa document on either my web site www.theozfiles.com or Project 1947's site. I interviewed Duggin, while he was at Syracuse University, but he was most recently senior scientist, Space Vehicles Directorate, US Air Force Research Laboratory, Kirtland AFB, New Mexico. Turner and Duggin shared an interest in UFOs in the early 70s and together arranged to get a copy of as much of McDonald's material as possible, and I believe that was in consultation with Betsy McDonald at the time. So I suspect this is who she is referring to - Mike Duggin, not Paul Norman of VUFORS or John Auchettl of PRA. Certainly Paul Norman & VUFORS helped faciltate and assist with McDonald's 1967 visit to Australia. And it was (the now late I gather) Phil Klass who made the trip a big issue and ultimately McDonald's naval contract was not renewed. From an Australian perspective James MCDonald's 1967 visit was extremely important. Here is a brief extract from a paper from my web site: "Australian Ufology": "Dr. James McDonald, a highly regarded atmospheric physicist, was encouraged to come to Australia by indications that there were significant cases of UFO phenomena that might enrich his agressive campaign in trying to scientifically legitimise the UFO subject. Paul Norman, VUFORS active sightings officer, and originally from America, was instrumental in encouraging Jim McDonald in making the Australian trip. McDonald's trip was in part funded by the US Office of Naval Research (ONR) funds. This aspect would embroil him in a protracted controversy orchestrated by aviation writer Philip Klass.It was clear that there seemed to be an element of pay back in this. Klass' initial excursion into the UFO mystery with his book "UFOs Identified" (1968), in which he posited the hypothesis that plasmas played a significant role in the UFO controversy, was appropriately criticised by McDonald. Klass sought to crucify McDonald by foisting the ONR funding scandal on him and making a case that McDonald's use of the funds to travel to Australia to investigate UFOs was highly inappropriate. While ONR did not renew his funding it was apparent that they were aware of his UFO activities and some say were actively sanctioning it. Klass would become the leading U.S. sceptical UFO researcher or, as many would have, the leading debunker of the field. "Dr. McDonald indicated to James Hughes, his Office of Naval Research (ONR) project monitor, upon his return from Australia, "The UFO situation in the Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania area is essentially the same as in the United States. I found the same types of UFO phenomena, the same predominance of discs and cigar shaped objects, the same type of car stopping incidents, and so on. There were many good cases, and before I left I had checked almost all of the "classic" Australian UFO episodes." In a whirlwind visit, McDonald either interviewed directly or by phone many of the witnesses to some of Australia's best cases. Some of these cases included Brian Crittenden's 1958 close encounter at Casino, NSW, the famous Boianai 1959 sightings, Ron Sullivan's extraordinary car headlight beam bending experience in 1966, George Pedley's sighting of a UFO and the famous "nest" at Horseshoe Lagoon in 1966, and Barry Morris's frightening pirsuit and landing near the UFO haunted locality of St. George, just a few months prior to McDonald's visit. "Dr. McDonald lectured on the UFO phenomenon to staff of the radiophysics division of the CSIRO, in Sydney (June 27th), the Institute of Physics and Department of Meteorology, University of Melbourne (June 29th), and the staffof the Division of Meteorological Physics, CSIRO, Aspendale, Victoria. He also gave private lectures to groups of scientists. Many were impressed by his powerful presentations. McDonald's credentials and detailed studies gave civilian groups he lectured to, an added impetus of confidence. The media reported favourably and extensively on his visit."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Contactee Taboo - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 01:31:21 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:30:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Velez >From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:31:09 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:36:26 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:50:54 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo <snip> >>>In the olden days, the aliens seemed to know who to grab: Moses, >>>Ezekiel, Mary (the mother of Jesus), Judge Crater, and Jimmy >>>Hoffa. >>>Somehow they must have lost their ability to discriminate over >>>time. >>What a snide remark. The aliens are apparently messing with >>ordinary people, and you read that as evidence that they have >>lost all ability to discriminate. I don't know if that's just a >>bad joke or poor thinking. I would venture that it's some >>from column A and some from column B. >John: >The "snide" remark was an attempt at humor to lighten the debate >so it wouldn't degenerate into the usual hard-nosed banter that >is rampant right now, here and eslewhere. Hi Rich, You wrote: >The point was that alien contactors were not picking the cream >of the human crop when they picked Adamski, Fry, Menger, et al. >(it seems to me). I'm glad it was a 'misread' on my part. >If your experience has rendered your sense of humor null and void, >then the abductors have won - they've destroyed one of the best >things about human beings. If I exhibit any sensitivity about the subject... I come by it honestly.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Contactee Taboo - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 02:53:37 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:32:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Velez >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:20:19 +0000 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Contactee Taboo - Velez >>Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:45:15 -0400 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:36:26 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:50:54 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 09:51:06 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>>>But why take a group of, shall we say, non-credentialed, >>>>>individuals when the aliens could do exactly the same thing to a >>>>>Carl Sagan or Richard Hall or Jerome Clark, or even you? >>Abductions are multi-generational and appear to follow certain >>'families' (blood-lines.) That is, if you actually assign a >>little weight to the reports of the abductees. The reason why >>people are taken probably has more to do with their genetic >>make-up than anything else. An unfortunate accident of being >>born into a family blood-line that is part of an 'ongoing' >>study. If this is in fact the case, and they have tinkered >>somehow with the genetics of certain families, then wealth, >>fame/status, position, level of education, or any other 'social' >>criteria just wouldn't matter to them. ><snip> >John, Hi Dick, Geez, it's been awhile since we talked. I never miss reading your posts though, so I don't feel like I've lost touch with you. Hope this communique finds you well my friend. You wrote: >As usual, you put it clearly and sensibly. My expression is that >'they' are Equal Opportunity Abductors. And by the way, one of >the abductees I have worked with, whom I consider absolutely >honest and truthful, told me that she saw me on board one time >when she was abducted onto a craft, so maybe they have taken >real smart people like me after all. (-;) That's so funny you should mention that. Budd confided in me once about an abductee that had reported seeing _him_ on-board a UFO during and abduction. How are you supposed to make heads or tails out of something like that? You just file it away along with a couple hundred other things no one can hope to investigate or prove. >Some abductees do have very troubling dreams, and sometimes >have difficulty separating presumed reality from dream material. I agree, Dick. I can't think of many abductees that haven't reported experiencing abduction related 'nightmares.' It is how many people come to discover that 'something strange' may be going on. Betty & Barney Hill, the twins/brothers from the Allagash four case, among others, are all examples of cases where troubling 'nightmares' of the abductions acted as the trigger for the individual to investigate further. The fact of the matter is; many abductees, myself included, have had uncomfortably close UFO and UFO occupant encounters while wide awake and perambulating around in the real world. It is the incidents that happened while I was wide awake, and while in the company of others, that I base my convictions on. Waking state incidents such as these have nothing to do with dreams or the much hyped 'sleep paralysis' explanation. I'm talking about events that 'happened.' Not 'dreams' I had while laying in my bed. The UFO experiences are life and consciousness altering events. You don't forget stuff like that. No one does. You cannot investigate dreams. But real events are something else and lend themselves (in many instances,) to empirical testing and study. That's the stuff everybody should be focused on. There is enough physical material in the form of ground trace evidence, physical manifestations on and in the bodies of the abductees, including cases involving multiple independent witnesses, to warrant further investigation. Hey, I'm nobody, and on my own I have consulted with several physicians and documented via my dialogs with them the uniqueness and oddness of the almost ubiquitous 'scoop marks' that appear on the bodies of many abductees. There's 'evidence' alright. It's just that nobody is looking at it. Frustrating. Infuriating! Take good care, Dick. Always a pleasure to talk with you, on or off the main drag. ;)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Unusual Designs At Area 51 - Burke From: John Burke <isunburn.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 01:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:34:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Unusual Designs At Area 51 - Burke >From: Joe Held <informantnews.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:30:19 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Unusual Designs At Area 51 >Some images from Google Earth, one in particular is >_very_ >interesting. Take a look at: >http://www.informantnews.com/pics3/googlearea51.html >Any comments ont the Pentagram? Joe My attention was immediately drawn to the center of the star you called a "Pentagram". I couldn't help but notice the left profile of Wayne Newton singing to a billfish that was breaking water, with some sort of giant lock device superimposed (the square object just below Wayne). If only we had the key to that lock!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:24:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:35:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Shell >From: Matthew James Didier <matthew.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 07:52:43 -0400 >Subject: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 >Klass will undoubtedly be sorely missed by a small few in >Ufology, and his passing will also, undoubtedly, be celebrated >by an equally small contingent... but in the end, I do believe >the majority in the field will realise with his passing, the >study has reached the end of an era. I am certainly saddened by this. Although I strongly disagreed with Phil on most aspects of the UFO field, we developed a mutual respect for each other. He jumped to my defense when MacAndrew was denying that he ever talked to me. This puts him head and shoulders above most of the skeptics. Phil was one of the most delightful dinner companions I have
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:10:24 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:41:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Lehmberg >From: Matthew James Didier <matthew.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 07:52:43 -0400 >Subject: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 >[Non-subscriber post] >Source: http://www.psican.org/messagecentre/viewtopic.php?t=453 >08-11-05 >The Last Will And Testament Of Philip J. Klass: >To ufologists who publicly criticize me... or who even think >unkind thoughts about me in private, I do hereby leave an >bequeath: >The UFO Curse: >No matter how long you live you will never know any more about >UFOs than you know today. You will never know any more about >what UFOs really are, or where they come from. You will never >know any more about what the U.S. Government really knows about >UFOs than you know today. As you lie on your own death-bed, you >will be as mystified about UFOs as you are today. And you will >remember this curse. Well - that very neatly did away with even the _potential_ of warmth or respect I might have felt at his passing, verily, which would not have occurred in any case. The man was a cesspool of belligerent evil and might as well have pulled the trigger of the gun ending the life of James McDonald. This last little "mind game" he prosecutes from the grave is only... Klassic. I'll remember his "curse." Yes, I will. I'll remember the eager steps he took to facilitate our ignorance, his smirking obstinacy in the face of the of the persons he destroyed, and the smirking delight he took in it all. I'll remember and hold him responsible. He was not the honored opposition we'd eulogize. He was ever only a craven enemy of our aggregate spirit and an insult to the bravery of same. All funerals are improvement... Humankind is much improved _this_ day.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Scientific Investigation Of 'Alien Bases'? - From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 06:12:07 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:43:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Scientific Investigation Of 'Alien Bases'? - >From: Jason Gammon <LuckyHoodoo.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 12:01:27 EDT >Subject: Scientific Investigation Of 'Alien Bases'? >Scientific Investigation of Alleged "Alien Bases" >I often wonder why this area has not been picked up by a good >majority of researchers? >Assuming the UFO phenomena is indeed extraterrestrial in nature, >one might conclude that a type of base would be vital to the >occupants agenda. >Of course one may speculate that the occupants have the >technological capacity to travel from their place of origin to >our planet whenever the situation arises, without the need of a >base, but I feel this is an overlooked aspect of this phenomena. >One could even speculate possible areas of interest such as the >Moon, the ocean floor, or even certain moutain range. >I am interested in the opinions of other researchers regarding >this topic. Jason, For me, it has always made good sense. The idea is that aliens have sufficiently developed their technology to the point where they have set up bases of operation and observation. No need to jump light years every time. UFOs have been spotted underwater and even emerging from oceans and lakes. I think it would be one place to set up a base. Underground is doable as well. On the back side of the moon or below the moon's surface is another good spot. With advanced stealth technology, the aliens could hide out during the day and come out to play at night. I was investigating evidence of a submarine UFO base off the Palos Verdes peninusula here in Southern California a few years ago. There were numerous sightings of glowing spheres and disks moving just below the water line and sometimes emerging to hover above the water. I specualted that they could have constructed something in the rock shelf below Santa Catalina Island. Of the oceanic UFOs (some term them USOs or Unidentified Submersible Objects), one was tracked by the U.S. Navy near Puerto Rico in 1963. Of course many of these objects have been tracked over Puerto Rico since that time. On a training maneuver, a sonar operator detected a sub aqueous object traveling at over 150 knots! The technicians tracked this object for four days and it maneuvered down to the incredible depth of 27,000 feet. Submarines of 1963 could not dive further than a fraction over a mile into the ocean deeps. What kind of submersible could withstand the tremendous ocean pressures? And how could it overcome the tremendous resistance of water moving at such incredible speeds? For years witnesses have seen many types of UFOs cruising off the Palos Verdes Peninsula in Southern California. UFOs have actually been seen to come out of the water in the San Pedro Channel. In the early seventies, my friend Jim was on the boat returning from Santa Catalina Island to San Pedro Harbor when he spotted a low, flying disk cruise silently over the channel boat. The craft was so close he could make out every detail of its structure including the four hemispherical pods on its underside. Strange blue-green lights have been seen in the water since 1989. In 1989, and again in 1990, witnesses have seen as many as 20 events an hour. One large light appeared to be as much as 100 feet in diameter. This large light spawned babies no larger than 10 to 12 feet in length. These lights were seen to move swiftly under the ocean's surface some 500 to 1,000 feet from the coastline in Abalone Cove. The hypothesis that these may be luminescent fish is discounted by a local marine biologist. These lights were too large and too swift to be fish. One of the lights was reported to have emerged from the water. I have not received any recent reports of these Palos Verdes lights, but intend to go there some weekend to scan the ocean
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 The Martians Aren't Coming From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:51:36 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:51:36 -0400 Subject: The Martians Aren't Coming Source: The Guardian - London, UK http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1546578,00.html Thursday August 11, 2005 The Martians Aren't Coming British UFO-spotting clubs may have to close because of a lack of sightings. Have the little green men really stopped visiting, or do we earthlings just have bigger things to worry about? Stephen Moss The Guardian It may only be a small, translucent green gleam on the horizon, but there are signs of a crisis in UFO-spotting. Chris Parr, coordinator of the Cumbrian branch of the British UFO Hunters, sent a shiver through the hearts of ufologists with his announcement this week that his group may be forced to wind up. There don't seem to be any UFOs in Cumbria any more. Or maybe there just aren't any spotters. Parr's statement seemed to leave both possibilities open. "In Cumbria we have gone from 60 UFO sightings in 2003 to 40 in 2004 and none at all this year. It means that the number of people keeping their eyes on the skies is greatly diminished. We are a dying breed in this part of the country. I put it down to the end of The X Files, a lack of military exercises in the area that would produce UFO sightings, and a lack of strange phenomena." A lack of strange phenomena or a shortage of strange people? Take your pick. It has not been a happy couple of years for ufology. The closure last year of UFO magazine, following the sudden death of its editor Graham Birdsall, was a disaster for the close-knit UFO- spotting community. Several websites have sprung up to try to fill the void, but the best-known one, Ufodata - launched by Russel Callaghan, who used to work with Birdsall, his father-in- law, on UFO Magazine - kept making my computer crash. Spooky. Parr's statement echoes those of UFO groups in Indiana and New Jersey, where ufologists are also having a long, dark night of the soul. Meanwhile, a leading Scandinavian ufologist has suggested that "maybe people are just fed up with the UFO hysteria". The sceptics reckon they have enough evidence to pronounce ufology dead. "The whole UFO thing is a kind of meme," says Susan Blackmore, a psychologist who studies paranormal activity. "It's a craze, a bit like sudoku. UFOs were just a rather long-lived version. But crazes thrive on novelty, and eventually that dies out. It's taken a long time, but it's good that the UFO era is over. My prediction is that it will go away for a long time and then come back." Blackmore has spent most of her working life examining the paranormal. She became interested in the subject after what she describes as a "dramatic out-of-body experience", and reached the conclusion that there really is nothing out there. "Everything is explicable in terms of psychology," she says. "I'm as sure as you can be that there are no paranormal experiences, and I've spent 30 years looking." She says belief in UFOs and the existence of extraterrestrials, while mostly harmless, can in some cases be very damaging. "For most people, belief in them is neither here nor there," she says, "but some people can become very frightened and obsessed. It can also lead to an anti-science attitude and the belief that everything is being hushed up." Britain's beleaguered band of ufologists are not, however, going to give up without a fight. "Cumbria is a delightful part of the country, but it has a small population and you shouldn't read anything into the fact that no UFOs are being spotted there," says Callaghan. He is currently excited, for example, by the extra- ordinary level of UFO activity in Filey, North Yorkshire, where he says there have been 80 reports in the past eight months. Russ Kellett, who describes himself as a UFO researcher, has been documenting them. "In Filey Bay there have been sightings of something that looks like a flying triangle," he says. "They are not conventional aircraft. They keep appearing and disappearing, defying the laws of physics. I've got video evidence and will be showing it at the Great British UFO Show in Leeds in October." As is often the case with committed ufologists, Kellett's interest dates from a personal "close encounter" in 1988. "I was sat at a level crossing on a motorbike," he recalls, "when suddenly I was aware of light all around me and a beam of light hitting me. The crossing went up so I carried on, but I saw this big ball of light moving towards Halifax." Kellett is one of those who believes there is an official cover-up of the number of UFO incidents. "You can't have panic," he says. "All we can hope is that someone will bring the truth out about this." Veteran ufologist Denis Plunkett, founder chairman of the British Flying Saucer Bureau, accepts that "there is not a lot happening at the moment" and that "the loss of the magazine was a great blow - Birdsall was a shining light". But he, too, insists that ufology should not be written off. "Belief in UFOs and extraterrestrial life has gone up from 10% of the population to 80% over the 50-plus years the BFSB has existed." Plunkett, a former civil servant who says his career suffered because of his publicly stated belief in flying saucers, argues that the evidence for extraterrestrials is "incontrovertible". He believes extraterrestrial life forms visit earth frequently. "They seem to be observing us but not interfering with us," he says. Nick Pope, author of Open Skies, Closed Minds, used to run the Ministry of Defence's UFO project. He began as a sceptic, but the difficulty he had in explaining some cases he assessed shook that scepticism. "I became more open when I was there," he says. "Now I won't rule out an extraterrestrial explanation. During my three-year tour of duty from 1991 to 94, I had to investigate 200 to 300 sightings a year: 80% of them had perfectly rational explanations - meteors, satellites, weather patterns; with another 15% it was difficult to reach any conclusion; but with about 5% there was evidence of something more intriguing." It was 1978, he says, that was "the peak in UFO sightings [it helped that Close Encounters of the Third Kind had been released the previous year], when there were 750 reports. We have seen these UFO waves many times. If a paper runs a UFO story and puts a line at the bottom saying, 'If you have seen a UFO, ring us,' they will be inundated. You try it." David Clarke, a historian at Sheffield University and the Fortean Times' UFO correspondent, is not convinced by the "peaks and troughs" line. "People haven't stopped believing, but they do seem to be seeing far less than they did and it's not clear why," he says. "There's been a massive drop in sightings since 1996, which is when The X Files was on TV. It may also be that since 9/11 people have had other things to worry about. There is not just less interest in UFOs, but in all supernatural phenomena. People are more worried about terrorist bombs. The MoD also lost interest in UFOs when the cold war ended: what they had really been looking for was Russian intruder aircraft. They only collate sightings now because MPs keep asking questions about UFOs." So is there a crisis in ufology? Joe McGonagle, who runs UFOlogyinuk, the main internet newsgroup for British ufologists, believes there is. "Ufology has shot itself in both feet and needs drastic surgery in order to recover," he told his 1,000- strong membership yesterday in an emailed response to the news from Cumbria. "Ufology is suffering from the paranoid accusations of government cover-ups which some of the more vociferous groups and individuals are all too willing to believe and kick up a fuss about. All of these things drive people away from what is already a peculiar subject." It isn't just Cumbria. McGonagle points to the decline in the number of local UFO clubs as ufologists get their information from the internet instead; apathy among the public (oddly, he links the failure to report sightings to the falling turnout in general elections); and a general "loss of focus" in ufology. The great flying saucer-spotting days of the mid-20th century are long gone. Contrast the panic generated by Orson Welles' radio broadcast of The War of the Worlds in 1938 with the indifference which greeted Tom Cruise's recent "blockbuster" movie version. David Clarke thinks the rise and fall of ufology is a rich subject for study and is currently trying to attract funds for just such an undertaking. "I see it as part of modern folklore," he says. "UFOs are like modern-day angels, and descriptions of meeting aliens are just like descriptions of people meeting
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Nick Pope Interview Metro Cafe - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:34:29 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:55:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope Interview Metro Cafe - Boone >From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:17:13 -0700 >Subject: Nick Pope Interview Metro Cafe >Source: Metro Cafe - London, UK >http://tinyurl.com/7vv85 >August 10th, 2005 >Nick Pope >by >Andrew Williams >Nick Pope was the head of the Ministry of Defence's UFO >Project >from 1991 until 1994. He went on to write several sci-fi books >and is a regular on the UFO convention circuit - lecturing all >over the world about his time as the MoD's very own 'Fox >Mulder'. Civil servant Pope still works for the MoD but is >reluctant to 'go into details' about his job specifics. <snip> Excellent article! Light hearted and level headed. We need more articles like this one.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:41:13 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:57:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Boone >From: Matthew James Didier <matthew.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 07:52:43 -0400 >Subject: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 >[Non-subscriber post] >Source: http://www.psican.org/messagecentre/viewtopic.php?>t=453 >08-11-05 >Phil Klass, senior editor at Aviation Week and Space >Technology >for 35 years, fellow of CSICOP, and arch sceptdebunker of >UFO >phenomena has passed at the age of 86. Condolensces to Mr. Klass' family and friends. He sure made growing up fun. He made science fun as well as research and his long running fact-fencing with Mr. Friedman was always a high point. I'm wondering if in my pile of old comics and aviation magazines did I keep the old Phil Klass articles.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:41:48 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:59:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 01:31:21 -0400 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:31:09 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo ><snip> >If I exhibit any sensitivity about the subject... I come by it >honestly. What gets me, John... Is that and honest and upright guy like you has an experience, and relates that experience, as best you can, and still some would set it aside as something other than what it was. Your intelligence and observational proclivities should force us all to take a serious look at what happend to you (and others). But, no, we keep going back to Adamski and the 50's boys when we have, right at hand, a person (you) who can take us through a real episode, as mysterious as it is, but we eshew the incident.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Gonzalez From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:53:28 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:04:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Gonzalez >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:10:24 -0500 >Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 >>From: Matthew James Didier <matthew.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 07:52:43 -0400 >>Subject: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 <snip> >>The UFO Curse: >>No matter how long you live you will never know any more about >>UFOs than you know today. You will never know any more about >>what UFOs really are, or where they come from. You will never >>know any more about what the U.S. Government really knows about >>UFOs than you know today. As you lie on your own death-bed, you >>will be as mystified about UFOs as you are today. And you will >>remember this curse. Sorry, Mr. Lehmberg, but that "curse" is _exactly_ what Mr. Jerome Clark had just written in the last FATE UFO Special. Quote: (Your safer bet about the future of Ufology would be):
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Philip J. Klass - Connors From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:21:25 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:52:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass - Connors Greetings to the Listarians, Phil and I butted heads many times over the last decade. Although we exchanged emails periodically, he was always the consumate idiot in matters ufological. I love the curse he left behind. I happen to agree with it, except the dolt didn't give you the real truth of the curse (must have been a Bush groupie). What old Phil ain't telling you in his curse is that the journey in Ufology may not give you the essential answers, but the journey is time well spent... For I have been led into many areas of learning I normally wouldn't have thought of taking. What I've learned far outweighs what I have not in the field of Ufology. My last Michael/Satan battle extravaganza with Phil was several years ago (archived on UFO Updates). He was really torqued that I expressed my opinion that his beloved CISCOPS was nothing more than a subversive cult. Phil challenged me to prove it. I did and he croaked. End of story. I'll miss ol' Phil. He was the perfect self made target for anyone who could think without assistance. A final thought about Phil. He sure did some great work for Ufology by holding Noel and Fry's feet to the fire years ago. He was just too stupid to realize that not everyone in Ufology was a charltan. He will also have much trouble justifying his destruction of Dr. McDonald in his present incarnation. A vicious soul, such as his, will always be indelibly stained.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 UFOs And NASA From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:27:37 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:27:37 -0400 Subject: UFOs And NASA Source: Fate Magazine http://fatemag.com/2005_08art2.html August 2005 UFOs And NASA By Rob Simone One of the primary goals of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) is to discover new life in the universe. From the many images captured by their cameras and the growing testimony of their astronauts, it seems intelligent life has been discovered and is trying to discover us. Mitchell's Testimony Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 astronaut, was the sixth man to walk on the Moon. He has spoken out on the subject of UFOs and how the extraterrestrial issue is handled in some circles of the military and government: I have met with credible professionals within two governments who have testified to their own firsthand experiences with close encounters. They include members of military intelligence and government whose official duties involved the extraterrestrial presence. As is expected, they were all bound by strict security oath agreements which prevented them from disclosing any of this. Mitchell has also stated that military personnel with whom he has spoken have seen actual alien bodies in the the course of their duties. Dr. Mitchell appeared as a guest on my talk show recently and I asked him about the continuing coverup, conspiracy, and truth embargo related to the UFO phenomenon. He had this to say: There has been, as we both know, considerable effort within most governments to suppress this information and to limit what is being said about it. Let's hope that it's coming to an end. Cooper Sees UFO Landing In 1965 Gordon Cooper orbited the planet 22 times on the last single-manned space mission. In 1955 Cooper was stationed at Edwards Air Force Base. While supervising the filming of a new landing facility for F-86 fighter jets, he and his crew observed a disc-shaped craft that hovered close to the ground, extended three retractable landing gear, and set down near the runway. The film crew approached and continued filming. Cooper states that the craft then lifted off the ground, retracted its gear, and soared off into the sky. When he developed the film it clearly showed the event he had witnessed. The film was then sent to Washington where it was classified and remains so to this day. When asked about the current location of this film and other evidence of UFOs captured by the Air Force, Cooper said that within the government and the military, it was impossible to learn where such documents were sent unless you were directly involved, and he was not. I was speaking recently at a conference on the subject of comparative UFO mythology of Asian and Middle Eastern traditions. After the talk an older gentleman approached me and told of his involvement with the Apollo missions as a communications engineer. His duties were to repair and maintain the two-way radios in the spacesuits used by the astronauts on the lunar surface. During a training exercise at NASA he overheard a conversation between two astronauts on their in- helmet transmitters. They were talking about a briefing they had the day before about the reality of UFOs. NASA told all the Apollo astronauts about unknown craft that had been seen in space on previous missions and that they were not ours. This briefing was done about two weeks before blast-off so they would have time to adjust to this new reality and prevent any panic if and when they saw alien spacecraft during their mission. NASA most likely gave them instructions on how to handle their radio communications and photography in the event of a sighting. It would seem NASA secretly briefed most if not all of the Apollo astronauts. To this day some will only talk about it off the record. The Evidence The photographic evidence NASA has released is even more compelling. For instance, in this photograph taken on Apollo 15 (above), the view of lunar module at the Hadley Apennine landing site is unusual, not because of what is there, but because of what's missing. While poring over the thousands of photos at Johnson Space Center in Houston, I came across this image and it caught my eye. The entire top portion of the photo has been cut off, obscuring the upper portion of the spacecraft and the hill and sky behind it. What could have been so secret to require crudely doctoring this particular image? Perhaps the reports of multiple UFOs hovering near the Apollo landing sites are true. In the next photo, we see evidence of what could be ancient alien ruins on the surface of the Moon. In this rarely seen NASA image we see the lunar surface with very clear, sharply pointed shadows extending from what appear to be high mountains. On closer inspection I have noticed that whatever is making these extremely symmetrical shadows is in contrast to the rough and jagged shadows that appear everywhere else. It must be a mountain of unusual height and shape. Moreover, three together suggests an artificial quality similar to the three pyramids at Giza. If these shadows appeared on Earth, it would be easier to believe they were man-made, but on the Moon, our conditioned response prevents us from considering a broader explanation. Possible artificial structures have been photographed on the surface of Mars as well. At right, bottom, is the official NASA photograph file # 80-35077 taken by Viking 1 orbiter on July 25, 1976, from a distance of 1,162 miles. Viking 1 was photographing areas in the northern hemisphere looking for possible landing sites for Viking 2. The official explanation for the face-like appearance of this mile-wide rock formation is simply a shadow effect. The varying degrees of darkness are not uncommon when the sun is at an angle of 20 degrees, as it is in this photograph. The most compelling aspect of this face from the shadows is that also clearly detectable are the mouth, nose, teeth, and a symmetrical head gear feature that runs vertically along the right side of the face. There is much more to the evidence of artificial structures on the Martian surface. These photos are merely a highlight. Faced with this data it would stand to reason that NASA and the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (the organization responsible for unmanned missions) would turn their attention to these remarkable outcroppings. Instead, only a few more images have been released, and only after relentless public pressure. Some of these were put through a filter that makes the details more difficult to see. A very rare newspaper clipping (see opposite page) shows a 1965 photograph from the Soviet Zond-3 spacecraft. It seems to show a disc-shaped craft orbiting the Moon. What struck me about this photo were the shape and features of the UFO. I knew I had seen this one before, but where? I searched through my collection of UFO pictures from around the world until I found the picture with the craft that looked exactly the same. This picture (at bottom right) shows a striking similarity to the UFO in the Russian shot. It was taken by an official mapping aircraft of the Costa Rican government on September 4, 1971, while flying at 10,000 feet altitude over a body of water known as Lago de Cote. The Costa Rican image appears on the cover of the Cometa report, a briefing document by the French space agency and military advisors stating that some UFOs have to be extraterrestrial in origin. They chose this picture because it is virtually indisputable. In the back of my mind I seemed to recall yet another photograph with the same UFO. It appears on the first page of this article. This photograph, from Apollo 16 in 1972, on the approach to the Moon, seems to show a UFO with the same characteristics. Could this be evidence of a craft intent on being pictured multiple times? Perhaps it is part of a fleet of spacecraft that circled the Earth and Moon 30 years ago. Time for Disclosure The few pieces of evidence that have filtered down into the public domain are most likely a small fraction of photos kept in classified files within the governments of the world. I have been collecting these pictures in the hopes of presenting them in this and future articles to offer some perspective and understanding to this perplexing field of study. It is my hope that the area of ET contact, both now and in ancient times, might become part of a normal course of study at colleges and universities. The emerging science of ufology may hold solutions to ongoing religious and political unrest that serves only to polarize humanity. It could be that the widespread disclosure of ET reality could unify the world in a way that nothing else could. The importance of this subject is
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Contactee Taboo - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:54:28 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:49:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Hall >From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:41:48 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 01:31:21 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:31:09 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >><snip> >>If I exhibit any sensitivity about the subject... I come by it >>honestly. >What gets me, John... >Is that and honest and upright guy like you has an experience, >and relates that experience, as best you can, and still some >would set it aside as something other than what it was. >Your intelligence and observational proclivities should force us >all to take a serious look at what happend to you (and others). >But, no, we keep going back to Adamski and the 50's boys when we >have, right at hand, a person (you) who can take us through a >real episode, as mysterious as it is, but we eshew the incident. >Shame on us, and those who would take us back to contactees. Amen. No matter how much some people want to believe contactees like Adamski, Fry, et al., they were not at all credible, and in fact usually discredited themselves eventually. They often were liars and frauds, and that is not just `another perspective' as Sheryl would have it; it is the finding of some very thorough and competent research. But the will to believe won't be denied because of mere facts. Many of the abductees with whom I have worked, on the other hand, are VERY credible and absolutely deserve our serious attention. We may not know exactly what is going on and may not accept that aliens are involved, but the typical debunker arguments such as those of Susan Clancy are
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Myers From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:18:18 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:51:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Myers I'm amazed at some of the e-mails I've seen in the last twenty- four hours regarding the death of Phil Klass. One person wrote to me saying, "Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy." Others have cheered Klass' passing or have taken a sickening glee in it. Klass was a skeptic, not a pedophile or mass murderer. There are people in this field I absolutely cannot tolerate, but I can guarantee you this: I would never celebrate their passing nor find any comfort in it. I thought people in this field would be far above this sort of nonsense. With Condolences To The Klass Family,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:29:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:53:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Lehmberg >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul>, >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:53:28 +0200 >Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:10:24 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 >>>From: Matthew James Didier <matthew.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 07:52:43 -0400 >>>Subject: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 ><snip> >>>The UFO Curse: >>>No matter how long you live you will never know any more about >>>UFOs than you know today. You will never know any more about >>>what UFOs really are, or where they come from. You will never >>>know any more about what the U.S. Government really knows about >>>UFOs than you know today. As you lie on your own death-bed, you >>>will be as mystified about UFOs as you are today. And you will >>>remember this curse. >Sorry, Mr. Lehmberg, but that "curse" is _exactly_ what Mr. >Jerome Clark had just written in the last FATE UFO Special. >Quote: >(Your safer bet about the future of Ufology would be): >"Everybody reading these words will go to his or her grave without >knowing a whole lot more about UFOs than we know now" Immaterial, Sir. One is an admitted curse spit to wound and torment, and the other is said on disappointed reflection. The former is authoritarian and the latter is authoritative. The former pretends to know and the latter admits that it does not know. The very definition of apples and oranges. No points, Mr. Gonzalez.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Mysterious Goings-On In The Filey Triangle From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:14:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:14:22 -0400 Subject: Mysterious Goings-On In The Filey Triangle Source: The Yorkshire Post - Leeds, UK http://tinyurl.com/d9dmp 11 August 2005 Mysterious Goings-On In The Filey Triangle Why an eight-mile stretch of North Yorkshire coastline could prove to be an extra-terrestrial tourist hotspot Paul Jeeves pr.jeeves.nul The truth, it seems, is out there =96 along an eight-mile stretch of North Yorkshire's coastline. Legions of UFO enthusiasts from across the UK have descended on what has become the nation's prime location to witness strange and other-worldly shapes in the skies between Scarborough and Filey. They recorded at least 50 sightings of unidentified flying objects last year between the two seaside resorts, which now appear to have an increasing allure for extra-terrestrial visitors. Since the start of this year, a further 85 sightings have been made and North Yorkshire is now considered the UFO spotting capital of Britain with dozens of other incidents recorded across the county during 2004. Nationally, the public's fascination with UFOs has dwindled since the mid-1990s pinnacle that coincided with the huge popularity of the US television sci-fi drama The X Files. But a burgeoning underground network of enthusiasts across the region has meant the rate of sightings has continued unabated. UFO investigator Russell Kellett has found himself at the centre of the UFO mecca after moving to Filey five years ago from Bradford. The 42-year-old has experienced his own taste of the unexplained, including a bizarre close encounter at a railway crossing in Yorkshire 17 years ago. Mr Kellett was left with raw, red scarring on his hands, neck and face after he spotted a bright light hovering above as he waited on his motorbike at the crossing near Keighley in 1988. Since then he has spent up to 15 hours each week scanning the skies above Yorkshire in the hope of capturing evidence of UFO activity on his video camera. North Yorkshire's lack of light pollution and the clear skies along the East Coast make the county an ideal hunting ground for UFOs. Mr Kellett said: "Since 1988 I've been on a journey to find out what has been happening. I do believe that it's not all about friendly ET-style characters coming to visit us. "I really do believe we need to find out things before it's too late, and there's nowhere better to do this than here in North Yorkshire. "The area between Scarborough and Filey is without doubt the UFO capital of Britain =96 we've got the statistics and the sightings to prove it. "It's remarkable that we have had so many sightings here, and it's down to the hard work all the enthusiasts are putting in." The close encounters in North Yorkshire last year include: - A multitude of UFO sightings in Filey, dating back to 2004, including descriptions and video evidence consisting of flying triangles emerging from the North Sea. - A disc-shaped UFO captured on film over Selby and there has also been reports of a huge UFO hovering over the Drax power station during the daytime. - A transparent ring-shaped UFO spotted pulsating in the night sky over Skipton on May 20 last year. - Images of a jellyfish-shaped UFO captured by a couple who pulled over in their car at Whixley to the west of York. - Multiple sightings of supposed fleets of small UFOs flying in formation at Scarborough. Andy Kelly, of Colton, Leeds, who is a computer specialist contracted to work for British Aerospace, was one of the witnesses to a sighting of a boomerang-shaped UFO near Selby in May last year. Mr Kelly, 49, who has been a keen aviation enthusiast since the age of 16, said: "I was driving along the M62 back to Leeds and I spotted an aircraft circling overheard as if it was looking for something. "Then I saw another shape in the sky, and to this day I don't know what it was. I know what a conventional aircraft looks like, and it certainly wasn't something I have ever seen before." Despite the dwindling interest in UFOs among many sections of the public, a network of enthusiasts has formed across the country since the British UFO Hunters group was established in 2002. The spotters, who have dubbed themselves an "underground response unit" to the unexplained, now aim to be at the location as quickly as possible of any sightings which are reported to them. But the group's founder, Chris Parr, admits it is not an exact science. "It is down to luck and being in the right place at the right time," he said. "The popularity of ufology has declined and this has tied in with the demise of The X-Files. The series made so many people aware of the subject. "But Yorkshire remains the hotbed of UFO activity for the whole of Britain, there have been so many sightings in recent times it is attracting a lot of interest from across the country." Mr Parr's own fascination with UFOs was triggered in 1984 when
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:36:50 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:35:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Lehmberg >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:18:18 -0700 >Subject: Phil Klass >I'm amazed at some of the e-mails I've seen in the last twenty- >four hours regarding the death of Phil Klass. One person wrote >to me saying, "Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy." Others >have cheered Klass' passing or have taken a sickening glee in >it. >Klass was a skeptic, not a pedophile or mass murderer. There >are people in this field I absolutely cannot tolerate, but I can >guarantee you this: I would never celebrate their passing nor >find any comfort in it. >I thought people in this field would be far above this sort of >nonsense. One makes a bed and then later sleeps in it, Mr. Myers. You only provoke me to greater excoriations. Klass was no skeptic, Sir. "...And if I may break in here to allow that skeptics are not the issue, are in comparison persons to be revered above all others, and are welcome company... honored team members... boon companions... the most interesting of us, the most knowledgeable of us, and the ones to instruct us the most! They are not to be confused with scurrilous skepti-bunkies, ponderous pelicanists, and insipient CSICOPians, or even the dearly departed and current regarded." I'll suffer you... Sir. You can suffer me the same way.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Randle From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:25:25 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:30:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Randle List - I was sadden to learn of Uncle Phil's demise. He enjoyed his role of rat in the birthday cake and asking questions that some of us didn't ask. He was always cordial with me even when we disagreed, as we frequently did. If nothing else, he did take the time to physically investigate cases, going to the locations and talking to witnesses. We can only hope that others in the skeptic camp will follow suit and make the on site investigations rather than pronouncements from the armchair. True, Uncle Phil knew that UFOs didn't exist and this
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 11 Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Matteson From: Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:33:12 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:58:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Matteson >From: Matthew James Didier <matthew.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 07:52:43 -0400 >Subject: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 >[Non-subscriber post] >Source: http://www.psican.org/messagecentre/viewtopic.php?t=453 >08-11-05 >The Last Will And Testament Of Philip J. Klass: >To ufologists who publicly criticize me... or who even think >unkind thoughts about me in private, I do hereby leave an >bequeath: >The UFO Curse: His final "blessing" will endear Mr. Klass to no one; the legacy he bequeths has the tinny sound of an embittered man. I wonder
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Secrecy News -- 08/11/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:50:36 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:57:32 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/11/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 79 August 11, 2005 ** IRAN'S MISSING ANTI-NUCLEAR FATWA ** CRS ON IRAN ** UAV ROADMAP 2005-2030 ** SOME MORE FROM CRS IRAN'S MISSING ANTI-NUCLEAR FATWA In a defiant statement to the International Atomic Energy Agency this week, the government of Iran declared that it would resume uranium enrichment activities but denied that it was pursuing nuclear weapons. As evidence of its peaceful intentions, Iran noted that the Iranian leader Ayatollah Khamanei had issued a fatwa (an Islamic religious edict) proscribing such weapons. But although it has been repeatedly referenced by Iranian officials, there does not seem to be any published text of such a fatwa, leaving its political significance and even its precise meaning in doubt. "The Leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, has issued the fatwa that the production, stockpiling, and use of nuclear weapons are forbidden under Islam and that the Islamic Republic of Iran shall never acquire these weapons," according to the August 9 statement to the IAEA. See: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/nuke/mehr080905.html But according to Javad Zarif, the Iranian ambassador to the UN, the decree "prohibit[s] the development and use of nuclear weapons" (Los Angeles Times, 11/05/04). A religious prohibition on *development* of nuclear weapons was not mentioned in this week's statement to the IAEA. The reported fatwa was said to have been issued by the Ayatollah in September 2004 "at Friday prayers." "When the Iranian leader issues such a fatwa, then we have given a political, religious and ideological guarantee that we are not pursuing the production of nuclear weapons," said Hasan Rowhani, Secretary of Iran's Supreme National Security Council, in a February 8, 2005 interview on Iranian TV. But an Iranian legislative initiative to enact the prohibition on nuclear weapons into statute last year failed. Thus, instead of demonstrating and bolstering the credibility of the reported fatwa, the Iranian government sent sharply mixed signals. Iranian legislator Hojatoleslam Mohammad Taqi Rahbar said last November 9 that the bill to ban nuclear weapons was "not expedient," because Iran is in a region of proliferators. He added, significantly: "There are no Shari'a [religious law] or legal restrictions on having such weapons as a deterrent." See "Dr. Strangelove in Iran," RFE/RL Iran Report, November 23, 2004: http://www.rferl.org/reports/iran-report/2004/11/41-231104.asp In short, efforts by Iranian officials to publicly clarify their religious and political views on nuclear weapons have instead generated new confusion about their actual intentions. CRS ON IRAN See, relatedly, "Iran's Nuclear Program: Recent Developments" from the Congressional Research Service, updated May 18, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/RS21592.pdf and "Iran: U.S. Concerns and Policy Responses," updated June 27, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL32048.pdf UAV ROADMAP 2005-2030 The anticipated development of unmanned aerial vehicles and associated systems over the next twenty-five years is the subject of a new planning document released by the Pentagon this week. "As the Global War on Terrorism (GWOT) enters its fourth year, the contributions of unmanned aircraft (UA) in sorties, hours, and expanded roles continue to increase," the new report states. "As of September 2004, some twenty types of coalition UA, large and small, have flown over 100,000 total flight hours in support of Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom. Their once reconnaissance-only role is now shared with strike, force protection, and signals collection...." "UA systems (UAS) continue to expand, encompassing a broad range of mission capabilities.... UA, and unmanned systems in general, are changing the conduct of military operations in the GWOT by providing unrelenting pursuit without offering the terrorist a high value target or a potential captive." The term Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) has been superseded in the new report by the phrase Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) to encompass ground stations and other supporting infrastructure. The UAS Roadmap was reported in Inside the Pentagon on August 11. A copy of "Unmanned Aircraft Systems Roadmap 2005-2030," Office of the Secretary of Defense, August 2005, is available here (213 pages in a very large 9 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/uav_roadmap2005.pdf SOME MORE FROM CRS "Military Retirement: Major Legislative Issues," updated August 2, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/IB85159.pdf "Department of Defense Food Procurement: Background and Status," July 12, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS22190.pdf "World Oil Demand and its Effect on Oil Prices," updated June 9, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32530.pdf "Palestinian Factions," updated June 8, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS21235.pdf "Data Mining: An Overview," updated June 7, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/intel/RL31798.pdf "The U.N. Law of the Sea Convention and the United States: Developments Since October 2003," updated June 3, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS21890.pdf "War on Drugs: Reauthorization of the Office of National Drug Control Policy," updated June 1, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32352.pdf "Freedom of Speech and Press: Exceptions to the First Amendment," updated May 24, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/95-815.pdf "Indonesian Elections," updated May 20, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS21874.pdf "Indonesia: Domestic Politics, Strategic Dynamics, and American Interests," updated May 20, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL32394.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood Project on Government Secrecy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:33:51 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:50:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Maccabee >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:42:40 +0000 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:49:39 +0100 >>Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>The latest Magonia Supplement is a special issue consisting of a >>10,000 word article by Hilary Evans on UFO abductees/contactees. >>(In Britain we don't make such rigid distinctions between them >>as do Americans, judging by the latest thread on this topic.) >>The html edition is now available at: >>http://magonia.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ms58.htm >John, >Perhaps if you studied the history a little closer you would >decide to agree with the Americans on this point. I lived >through the 'contactee' era of the 1950s-60s and was involved in >a lot of investigations of their claims (including Adamski, who >seems to have more than nine lives among those with a will-to- >believe that defies all common sense and reason). >I have also been personally involved, rather deeply, in studies >of 'abductees'. The two sets have almost nothing in common. >To oversimplify only slightly, 'conactees' are messengers for >those wonderful space beings who are so full of light and love >for humanity. 'Abductees' (probably 95%) describe kidnappers and >rapists. To run the risk of oversimplifying even more, I have long pointed out a little "rule of thumb" that is almost always
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 02:38:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:54:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Maccabee >From: Matthew James Didier <matthew.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 07:52:43 -0400 >Subject: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 >[Non-subscriber post] >Source: http://www.psican.org/messagecentre/viewtopic.php?t=453 >08-11-05 >Phil Klass, senior editor at Aviation Week and Space Technology >for 35 years, fellow of CSICOP, and arch sceptdebunker of UFO >phenomena has passed at the age of 86. >Interestingly enough, Klass, despite his editorial job, was not >a pilot which led many to 'question' his authority on much... >especially his interest in Ufology. His stances on many issues >within paranormal studies were untenable at best. His constant >whining and bothering of many Ufologists was legendary... To the >end, Klass was the epitome of the word "Sceptdebunker" and set a >standard for many who've tried to follow in his footsteps. I Remember Klass I first met "funny" Phil way back in 1974 when I began my investigation of the Trent case (McMinnville, Oregon, 1950). I contacted Phil to find if he had good copies of the photos to look at after I discovered that he had written about the case in his second UFO book, UFOs EXPLAINED (1973). In that first telephone call he said (a) that he was a "dyed in the wool skeptic" and doubted any UFO sighting was related to ET craft and (b) that I would be better off spending my time doing something else. Well, I didn't do something else. Thanks to a suggestion from Phil, I contacted the editor of the newspaper in McMinnville to see if he could help get the Trent negatives and, lo and behold, he had them on his desk (he had never returned them to the Trents). The Trents allowed me to borrow them for a few weeks for analysis and that's where the investigation really began. Of course, I kept them much longer than a few weeks (like about 30 yeas!). For the next several years as my investigation continued Phil and I exchanged dozens to maybe a hundred letters on the subject. I suppose that if the Trent case is now considered as "rock solid" it is, at least in part, due to Phil "teaching" me how to argue like a lawyer.... a lawyer for the defense of the accused (witness). It was in this timeframe (middle 70's) that I published a review of UFOS EXPLAINED in the NICAP journal. I advised everyone to read it...and I still do!. Not because I think he was correct in the explanations he proposed (for Socorro, for Coyne/helicopter case, Trent and others) but because I figured that any serious investigator should understand the types of arguments, including ad-hominem arguments, that would be used against any really good case. It was in this time frame that I began to realize that the closer you get, in a stepwide manner (rejecting one explanation after another), to proving a sighting cannot be explained in a conventional manner or as known phenomenon, the harder it is to take the next step, because Phil, (or someone like him) would be ready to propose another explanation. It became apparent that the first rule for debunkers is (Maccabee's First Rule for Debunkers): any explanation is better than none. (Note: the Second Rule is that , if the first explanation doesn't seem convincing, propose another. And the Third Rule is...... well, you guessed it.... Propose Yet another.. etc.) Although our tempest in a teapot (the rest of the world didn't care how much we argued) over the Trent case lasted for years, the major battle was over the New Zealand sightings of Dec. 31, 1978. Here was a richness of phenomena (radar, color movie film) and recorded information (tapes made on the airplane and at the radar control center in "real time") that probably surpassed all (civilian) sightings up to that time (and still stands unique in that regard). We really chewed over this one. Virtually every observation during every minute of the sightings (between 1 AM and 3 AM) plus what the witnesses did afterward, etc., was argued in extent. I have 4, 3" ring binder notebooks full of correspondence. At one time I estimated over 1,200 single spaced pages of letters and related documents were exchanged over a 5 year period from the time PJK first became interested in the sightings a year after they happened. (Even the "notorious" Gulf Breeze sightings did not result in as much correspondence is the New Zealand sightings.) Phil argued mightily but he lost the argument in several ways, the most obvious being his explanation of the flashing light that was recorded on film. He claimed the images were made by light from the rotating red beacon on top of the aircraft after reflection from the propellor blade. Talk about "any explanation is better than none!" He described this explanation to me in letters and I pointed out how it violated basic optical physics. Nevertheless, he put it into his book UFOS, THE PUBLIC DECEIVED (1983?) where it is available for anyone to read. (The title is apt because in this book Klass did deceive the public!) Of course, the way he portrayed the New Zealand sightings in general and this event in particular, the average reader would not know that his explanation was complete poppycock. I have written about this in several places including in my paper Prosaic Explanations, The Failure of UFO Skepticism which is at my web site: http://brumac.8k.com Incidently, the title of the Prosaic paper is courtesy of Phil Klass who wrote that he had never found a sighting for which he couldn't find a "prosaic explanation." (I originally wrote this paper at the request of Eugene Mallove and it was published in Infinite Energy Magazine several years ago.) Another sighting where we tangled head on was the Japan Airlines case (JAL 1628; Nov 1986) which was investigated by the FAA in 1987. In that case, Phil managed to get ahold of a transcript of the conversations between radar control and the airplane. Phil deduced, probably with the help of Robert Sheaffer, that "extraterrestrial objects" did explain the sighting. Said "ET " objects were Mars and Jupiter. Of course, there were "problems" with this explanation. What Phil did not know is that, thanks to a friend at "the agency," I got the complete FAA report, including statements by the air crew and the radar tracking data. I showed why it could not be Mars and Jupiter. Then CSICOP published Phil's second explanation, moonlight reflected from clouds, another "failed explanation." For comments on this see the JAL paper at the above web site and also the "Prosaic" paper. From the middle 1990s onward we had very sparse correspondence... which was OK with me because it always took so long to respond to his innumerable questions. One thing to be said in Phil's favor: he paid attention. No skeptic... and I say again, no skeptic... did more work on sightings than did Phil. Most other skeptics simply assumed things could be explained and didn't take the time to investigate. For example, I recall that, on the day the FAA announced the results of its investigation (March 5(?), 1987) I was invited to go to one of the TV stations in DC for an interview. While I was waiting in the "Green Room" the skeptic appeared. Not Phil. (I don't know why not Phil; after all CSICOP had already published their "ET" explanation by this time.) Skeptic John Pike came in, wearing the mantle (bestowed on him by the TV station) as an expert who would comment on the FAA "explanation". (The FAA only tackled the radar detections, claiming that they were radar errors. The FAA said nothing about the unusual/amzing visual sightings by the crew). It was expected that Pike would dispute the visual sightings. Anyway, I started talking to UFO "expert" Pike and learned very quickly that he didn't know anything about the sighting other than it had occurred on an airplane and involved some bizarre descriptions of "UFOs". So, I explained to him that CSICOP had published the Mars and Jupiter "ET" explanation. He went with it. And I stomped on him, because, having thoroughly studied the sighting, I was able to counter that explanation. Phil's UFO legacy is simple: he almost single-handedly managed to set ufology back perhaps 30 years by making himself available to the press as a credible UFO skeptic who was sufficiently knowledgeable about the subject to write boks about UFOs, books that were generally endorsed by the scientific community. He portrayed himself as the voiceof reason in ufology. I cannot recall any sighting where he was at a loss for words or explanations. Perhaps the closest he came to "losing it" was in the Val Johnson/police car damage case in August, 1980, which he suggested the sighting (of a rapidly moving bright light that, apparently, damaged the police car) was a practical joke by Johnson. (see UFOs The Public Deceived) I know that many other ufologists tangled with Phil over the years, most recently being the people who study abductees. So I suppose there are hundreds of "Phil" stories out there waiting to be told. As for me I will miss him... not... well, a little, anyway. Athough he seemed in person to be a nice guy, and no doubt he was in matters NON-ufological, he was, at the least, an irritant. And if he could stick the knife in and turn it a little... he did. Yet, I thank him for my education in UFO invetigation. Without his continual prodding when I was invetigating Trent and New Zealand I wouldn't have become as effective in acting like a "lawyer for the defense." So, Phil, here's a salute, bon voyage, and hope you now know what UFOs are all about. And let us all hope your curse does not come true.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Noted UFO Debunker Klass Dies At 85 From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:58:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:58:10 -0400 Subject: Noted UFO Debunker Klass Dies At 85 Source: Florida Today http://tinyurl.com/7bz3b August 12, 2005 Local News Noted UFO Debunker Klass Dies At 85 Was well-known aviation writer By Kimberly C. Moore Florida Today Philip J. Klass spent a 50-year career meticulously researching stories on the latest in aviation technology as a senior editor for Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine. He spent his off hours trying to disprove the existence of UFOs. Klass died Tuesday of prostate cancer at the Merritt Island home he shared with his wife of 25 years, Nadya. "He fought very hard," said Nadya, a former news editor with Voice of America. Klass, 85, was born and raised in Iowa, the son of a lawyer. He earned a degree in electrical engineering from Iowa State and went on to work for General Electric in aviation development. In 1952, he switched careers to journalism. His sister, Rosanne Klass of New York City, said her brother was always building crystal radio sets as a boy. She remembers his first glimpse of his future at a fairground in Cedar Rapids. "As a Boy Scout, he won a contest, and the prize was a chance to go up in an autogyro, now called a helicopter," Rosanne Klass said, adding that her parents stood by frightened as her brother ascended. "In my mind, I can see Phil in his Boy Scout uniform in the autogyro." He received numerous awards for his reporting, but he became culturally known for his UFO work, earning criticism from those who insist UFOs and aliens are real. He published "UFOs Identified" in 1968, along with four other books that explained away UFOs. Klass was one of the founders of the Committee for Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP) and a regular contributor to its journal, Skeptical Inquirer. He famously offered $10,000 to anyone whose UFO or alien abduction claims could be verified by the FBI. He never paid a reward. David Jacobs, a Temple University history professor and alien abduction expert, said Klass was dedicated to his cause. The two argued their points on CNN's "Larry King Live" in 1993. "Regardless of evidence, regardless of logic, regardless of disconfirming information, he always set his path clearly on one course and that was that the UFO phenomenon was not extraterrestrial and had no basis in reality," Jacobs said Thursday night. He added, though, "I wish that UFO researchers were as dedicated and tenacious as he was."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Re: Contactee Taboo - Gonzalez From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:21:13 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:59:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Gonzalez >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 02:53:37 -0400 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:20:19 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo <snip> >>As usual, you put it clearly and sensibly. My expression is that >>'they' are Equal Opportunity Abductors. And by the way, one of >>the abductees I have worked with, whom I consider absolutely >>honest and truthful, told me that she saw me on board one time >>when she was abducted onto a craft, so maybe they have taken >>real smart people like me after all. (-;) >That's so funny you should mention that. Budd confided in me >once about an abductee that had reported seeing _him_ on-board a >UFO during and abduction. How are you supposed to make heads or >tails out of something like that? You just file it away along >with a couple hundred other things no one can hope to >investigate or prove. John & Dick, I cannot let this pass without comment. I do know that this kind of practice is quite usual among paranormal investigators but that doesn't make it less dishonest (precisely this was the theme of my first written article in Ufology, almost 30 years ago). We, the people, are counting on you to get a clear and not distorted view about what is allegedly happening. Difficult enough is to deal with witneess and investigators pre-conceptions, but data suppresion is non acceptable. Maybe, at the beginning, when you are trying to "get the message accepted" would be comprenhensible to _delay_ the publication of some of the data. Also, you may keep confidential some details _for a time_ to see if they check with other narratives, etc. An example. For years, we have heard how Budd Hopkins (and possibly others) have refused to divulge examples of alleged alien texts, so as to check for any correspondences. That would be O.K. for a short time, but after so many years, to keep insisting on such a secrecy, only points to the absence of any valuable correspondence (that would have been quickly revealed if found). So then, why the data suppresion? We already know that aboard UFOs abductees have met impossible creatures, deceased familiars, and even political figures. Even, from time to time, we heard that they have found some of the others abductees they allegedly saw on board. What it is so surprising to meet their UFO investigator there? Of course, it is _not_ for a lack of suitable explanations. Maybe the ufologist was really abducted (like Sprinkle, Fowler, and others have admitted). Even if not admitted, maybe that ufologist is in denial. Alternatively, you can always appeal to those "screen memories" so useful to explain away any bothering data. Not to forget other more unusual possibilities like shape- changing aliens or virtual scenarios. If somebody told me that he saw me aboard a UFO, I will check date, time, etc. and would report my findings. No more, no less. <snip> >The fact of the matter is; many abductees, myself included, have >had uncomfortably close UFO and UFO occupant encounters while >wide awake and perambulating around in the real world. It is the >incidents that happened while I was wide awake, and while in the >company of others, that I base my convictions on. Details, please. Specially about those "others" that see you being abducted.I hope they are not like "Richard and Dan" of Linda Cortile's fame. Incidentally, does anybody know abot any novelties in that front?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Re: The Martians Aren't Coming - Allan From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:02:13 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:02:35 -0400 Subject: Re: The Martians Aren't Coming - Allan >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 3:51 PM >Subject: UFO UpDate: The Martians Aren't Coming >Source: The Guardian - London, UK >http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1546578,00.html >Thursday August 11, 2005 >The Martians Aren't Coming >British UFO-spotting clubs may have to close because of a lack >of sightings. Have the little green men really stopped visiting, >or do we earthlings just have bigger things to worry about? >Stephen Moss >The Guardian >It may only be a small, translucent green gleam on the horizon, >but there are signs of a crisis in UFO-spotting. Chris Parr, >coordinator of the Cumbrian branch of the British UFO Hunters, >sent a shiver through the hearts of ufologists with his >announcement this week that his group may be forced to wind up. >There don't seem to be any UFOs in Cumbria any more. >Or maybe there just aren't any spotters. Parr's statement seemed >to leave both possibilities open. "In Cumbria we have gone from >60 UFO sightings in 2003 to 40 in 2004 and none at all this >year. It means that the number of people keeping their eyes on >the skies is greatly diminished. We are a dying breed in this >part of the country. I put it down to the end of The X Files, a >lack of military exercises in the area that would produce UFO >sightings, and a lack of strange phenomena." A lack of strange >phenomena or a shortage of strange people? Take your pick. >It has not been a happy couple of years for ufology. The closure >last year of UFO magazine, following the sudden death of its >editor Graham Birdsall, was a disaster for the close-knit UFO- >spotting community. Several websites have sprung up to try to >fill the void, but the best-known one, Ufodata - launched by >Russel Callaghan, who used to work with Birdsall, his father-in- >law, on UFO Magazine - kept making my computer crash. Spooky. >Parr's statement echoes those of UFO groups in Indiana and New >Jersey, where ufologists are also having a long, dark night of >the soul. Meanwhile, a leading Scandinavian ufologist has >suggested that "maybe people are just fed up with the UFO >hysteria". The sceptics reckon they have enough evidence to >pronounce ufology dead. >"The whole UFO thing is a kind of meme," says Susan Blackmore, a >psychologist who studies paranormal activity. "It's a craze, a >bit like sudoku. UFOs were just a rather long-lived version. But >crazes thrive on novelty, and eventually that dies out. It's >taken a long time, but it's good that the UFO era is over. My >prediction is that it will go away for a long time and then come >back." I am interested in the extraordinary phrase "Sceptics reckon they have enough evidence to pronounce ufology dead". Would any sceptic (or skeptic) care to come forward with his evidence for the 'death' of ufology? Beware, however; ufology has 'died' numerous times before. Susan Blackmore is partly right. Ufology may well go away, but it will assuredly return before long. It only needs a flap of sightings somewhere (and where better than Filey, in Yorkshire) to revive the whole phenomenon. See the separate news report on this:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Re: Mysterious Goings-On In The Filey Triangle - From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:04:21 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:07:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Mysterious Goings-On In The Filey Triangle - From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 6:14 PM Subject: Mysterious Goings-On In The Filey Triangle >Source: The Yorkshire Post - Leeds, UK http://tinyurl.com/d9dmp >Mysterious Goings-On In The Filey Triangle >Why an eight-mile stretch of North Yorkshire coastline could >prove to be an extra-terrestrial tourist hotspot >Paul Jeeves >The truth, it seems, is out there - along an eight-mile stretch >of North Yorkshire's coastline. >UFO investigator Russell Kellett has found himself at the centre >of the UFO mecca after moving to Filey five years ago from >Bradford. >"The area between Scarborough and Filey is without doubt the UFO >capital of Britain - we've got the statistics and the sightings >to prove it. >But the group's founder, Chris Parr, admits it is not an exact >science. >"But Yorkshire remains the hotbed of UFO activity for the whole >of Britain, there have been so many sightings in recent times it >is attracting a lot of interest from across the country." Funny how every once in a while we are told that some area of the UK is a 'hotbed' of UFO activity. The ETs are concentrating their activities there and only there! The following localities spring to mind: Warminster, 1960s Stoke-on-Trent & district, 1967-68 South Wales in 1977 East Anglia at various times The Peak District (mystery triangles 1970s) Wiltshire (think of all those crop circles since 1980) Todmorden, Lancashire, 1980s Southampton & Portsmouth area, various times Area around Rendlesham Bonnybridge, Scotland 1990s (and even today) There must be lots of others I have missed...... Now we have Filey in Yorkshire. And every time we get a 'flap' some journalist goes over the moon and promotes, usually with supporting remarks from the local UFO brigade, a new area of high UFO activity. Nobody dares to mention any of the earlier hotspots. That would be cheating on the locals wouldn't it? Anyone care to predict where the next 'hotspot' will be? Remember that according to The Guardian newspaper - in another List-post - ufology in Britain is allegedly dead!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:13:05 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:10:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Shell >From: Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:33:12 -0500 >Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 On Thursday, August 11, 2005, at 03:58 PM, Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul>wrote: >His final "blessing" will endear Mr. Klass to no one; the legacy >he bequeths has the tinny sound of an embittered man. I wonder >yet, as I have for quite some time, just what circumstance >brought Mr. Klass to such a state of mind? We may never know.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Disney UFO Documentary? From: Josh Presseisen <josh.nul> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:12:28 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:16:57 -0400 Subject: Disney UFO Documentary? Anyone know where this documentary featuring Michael Eisner and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:08:33 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:18:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Clark >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:33:51 -0400 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:42:40 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:49:39 +0100 >>>Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>The latest Magonia Supplement is a special issue consisting of a >>>10,000 word article by Hilary Evans on UFO abductees/contactees. >>>(In Britain we don't make such rigid distinctions between them >>>as do Americans, judging by the latest thread on this topic.) >>Perhaps if you studied the history a little closer you would >>decide to agree with the Americans on this point. I lived >>through the 'contactee' era of the 1950s-60s and was involved in >>a lot of investigations of their claims (including Adamski, who >>seems to have more than nine lives among those with a will-to- >>believe that defies all common sense and reason). >>I have also been personally involved, rather deeply, in studies >>of 'abductees'. The two sets have almost nothing in common. >Contactees have a good time. >Abductees don't! That barely touches it, Bruce. I probably know as much about the contactee movement as any ufologist who doesn't buy into its message, and the idea that there is no distinction between contactees and abductees is so laughable on its face that it's not worth arguing. It's less a serious argument than a rhetorical strategy. Any serious analysis of anything, ufological or otherwise, needs to expose what is similar among phenomena, but it also needs to discern differences; otherwise, the discussion gets us nowhere. Which may be the point of the abductee/contactee equivalance anyway. Contactees are pretty easy to dismiss; many abductees aren't; but if abductees are really just a subset of contactees ... well, the strategical purpose is obvious enough. If it's unscholarly and intellectually sloppy, at least it lets those who so need it to rest easy. This is _not_ an argument about alien visitation, by the way. One doesn't have to hold a literal interpretation of the abduction phenomenon to put, say, Travis Walton or Debbie Jordan in an essentially different category from George Adamski or Billy Meier. For the rest of you who may not know the issues, read a book by Hopkins or Jacobs or Bullard, then find a contactee book like Adamski's or the Reeves's wonderful wide-eyed, jaw-dropped survey of the 1950s contactee scene, Flying Saucer Pilgrimage (1957). You'll get the idea. (Or, if I may be immodest for the moment, go to the respective abduction entry [written by Bullard] and contactee entry in The UFO Encyclopedia.) And the more you learn about both, the more the two classes of claims diverge, beginning with those who relate the stories to begin with. Skeptics as much as proponents are not served by phony blurring of differences for political advantage.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:21:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Groff >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:13:05 -0400 >Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 >>From: Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:33:12 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 >On Thursday, August 11, 2005, at 03:58 PM, Gary Matteson ><mystrius.nul>wrote: >>His final "blessing" will endear Mr. Klass to no one; the legacy >>he bequeths has the tinny sound of an embittered man. I wonder >>yet, as I have for quite some time, just what circumstance >>brought Mr. Klass to such a state of mind? We may never know. >I always just assumed from talking to him that Phil was an >abductee. Funny you should say that. There is a book available written and self-published by Greg Wright called, Who's Who In UFOs And ET. It is hilarious reading although that wasn't Greg's intention and parts were definitely not funny to some people. http://tinyurl.com/avpc4 In this book Nicholette Pavlevsky claims to channel an ET named "Baktar" who then proceeds to name various people involved in the UFO Phenomenon and what their 'real' story is. This "Baktar" claims that indeed Phillip Klass was an abductee and that the reason he was so adamant about debunking UFOs was that he simply refused to believe it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Re: The Martians Aren't Coming - Miller From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:30:46 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:22:27 -0400 Subject: Re: The Martians Aren't Coming - Miller >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Date: Thursday, August 11, 2005 3:51 PM >Subject: UFO UpDate: The Martians Aren't Coming >Source: The Guardian - London, UK >http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1546578,00.html >Thursday August 11, 2005 >The Martians Aren't Coming <snip> >Several websites have sprung up to try to fill the void, but >the best-known one, Ufodata..........
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder - Pope From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:01:46 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:11:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder - Pope >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:44:45 +0100 >Subject: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >I, like many British ufologists, are intrigued by the interview >with Nick Pope, which appeared in this morning's 'Metro' >newspaper, which is distributed free to commuters at rail and >Underground stations in London. Describing him in terms which we >have become used to as "the [Ministry of Defence's] very own Fox >Mulder, it begins: >Q: "What did your job as head of the MoD's UFO Project entail?" >A: "I had been in the MoD since 1985 and did various things - >they move you around every three years - when they suddenly >asked me to head the UFO Project. I had no previous interest in >UFOs, which was probably the best way to come into that job." >Q: "What did you do every day?" >A: "We researched and investigated the UFO mystery to see if >reports of UFOs suggested anything of any defence significance. >We looked at whether they posed a threat to Britain and if the >things that were being reported were cause for concern." >I'd just like to ask Mr Pope: when approached about the job did >the interviewing panel say, "Mr Pope, this job involves running >the Ministry's UFO Project"? If not, what exactly did they say? I was headhunted, so there was no interviewing panel. From 1990 I'd worked in a part of Secretariat (Air Staff) where much of my job related to military aircraft accidents. In the run up to the first Gulf War I'd been seconded into the Joint Operations Center, working in the Air Force Operations Room as a watchkeeper/briefer. My immediate boss there asked whether, after the war, I wanted "Owen's job", as part of a reshuffle. I knew that the job involved UFOs, but little more than that. I'd been looking to move, so accepted the offer. It was as simple as that. >And in response to the second question, exactly what proportion >of your time at the 'UFO desk' was involved with investigating >UFO reports? Difficult to say. The job was reactive, so if we had lots of sightings, we'd investigate; if not, we'd do something else (I had other duties, including helping to vet books written by military personnel about the Gulf War). But that's an oversimplification, as some reports had sufficient information to warrant a meaningful investigation and some didn't. Not all work strands were investigative. Other tasks included responding to general UFO-related correspondence, helping the Press Office draw up responses to questions from journalists, miscellaneous research (e.g. trend analysis), drafting responses to Parliamentary Questions tabled by MPs, analysing photos/videos, looking at radar tapes, or even helping schoolchildren with projects on the subject. Finally, none of this takes account of time spent on work strands relating to alien abductions, crop circles, cattle mutilations, reports of ghosts at MOD bases, people volunteering to become 'psychic spies', or people asking what the MOD could do to counter the threat posed to the Earth by comets and asteroids. By virtue of the fact that I ran the UFO Project, anything 'weird and wonderful' came my way. Media references to the 'real X-Files' and the 'real Fox Mulder' were irritating at the time, but with hindsight, I can see why they made the connection. With the above in mind, I'd be hard pushed, over ten years after having left the job, to give a percentage breakdown covering the respective outputs.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Classy Klass From: Terry Blanton <commengr.nul> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:02:17 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:58:29 -0400 Subject: Classy Klass ebk, I swore I'd never show this while Phil as alive. It was taken in Britain at the height of the Alien Autopsy controversy. Phil had a great sense of humor. I thought you might wish to share it with the Listers. http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/ufoupdates/listers/terry/klasstopsy.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Perseid Meteor Shower Report From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:09:04 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:01:33 -0400 Subject: Perseid Meteor Shower Report Perseid Meteor Shower Report From Latitude 31.554N, Longitude 110.303W As usual some oddities in the meteor observation department. My first window observing from SE Arizona was from 112210-112230 MST (120510-120530 GMT); the second was from 120240-120450 MST (120940-121150 GMT). The first window I saw only two; however, both were large and slow-moving. The first moved from SW to NE, had billowing trail with orange and red tones. The second moved from N to S, had wide bluish trail. The second window I saw 85, most fast-movers and none as dramatic as the two in the first
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Ed Walters? [was: Magonia Supplement No. 58] From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:09:16 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:05:18 -0400 Subject: Ed Walters? [was: Magonia Supplement No. 58] >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:08:33 -0500 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:33:51 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:42:40 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 <snip> >>Contactees have a good time. >>Abductees don't! >That barely touches it, Bruce. I probably know as much about the >contactee movement as any ufologist who doesn't buy into its >message, and the idea that there is no distinction between >contactees and abductees is so laughable on its face that it's >not worth arguing. >It's less a serious argument than a rhetorical strategy. Any >serious analysis of anything, ufological or otherwise, needs to >expose what is similar among phenomena, but it also needs to >discern differences; otherwise, the discussion gets us nowhere. >Which may be the point of the abductee/contactee equivalance >anyway. Contactees are pretty easy to dismiss; many abductees >aren't; but if abductees are really just a subset of contactees >... well, the strategical purpose is obvious enough. If it's >unscholarly and intellectually sloppy, at least it lets those >who so need it to rest easy. This is _not_ an argument about >alien visitation, by the way. One doesn't have to hold a literal >interpretation of the abduction phenomenon to put, say, Travis >Walton or Debbie Jordan in an essentially different category >from George Adamski or Billy Meier. >For the rest of you who may not know the issues, read a book by >Hopkins or Jacobs or Bullard, then find a contactee book like >Adamski's or the Reeves's wonderful wide-eyed, jaw-dropped >survey of the 1950s contactee scene, Flying Saucer Pilgrimage >(1957). You'll get the idea. (Or, if I may be immodest for the >moment, go to the respective abduction entry [written by >Bullard] and contactee entry in The UFO Encyclopedia.) And the >more you learn about both, the more the two classes of claims >diverge, beginning with those who relate the stories to begin >with. Skeptics as much as proponents are not served by phony >blurring of differences for political advantage. Jerry, Bruce, Dick
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:36:19 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:11:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Rimmer >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:08:33 -0500 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >That barely touches it, Bruce. I probably know as much about the >contactee movement as any ufologist who doesn't buy into its >message, and the idea that there is no distinction between >contactees and abductees is so laughable on its face that it's >not worth arguing. >It's less a serious argument than a rhetorical strategy. Any >serious analysis of anything, ufological or otherwise, needs to >expose what is similar among phenomena, but it also needs to >discern differences; otherwise, the discussion gets us nowhere. >Which may be the point of the abductee/contactee equivalance >anyway. Contactees are pretty easy to dismiss; many abductees >aren't; but if abductees are really just a subset of contactees >... well, the strategical purpose is obvious enough. If it's >unscholarly and intellectually sloppy, at least it lets those >who so need it to rest easy. This is _not_ an argument about >alien visitation, by the way. One doesn't have to hold a literal >interpretation of the abduction phenomenon to put, say, Travis >Walton or Debbie Jordan in an essentially different category >from George Adamski or Billy Meier. >For the rest of you who may not know the issues, read a book by >Hopkins or Jacobs or Bullard, then find a contactee book like >Adamski's or the Reeves's wonderful wide-eyed, jaw-dropped >survey of the 1950s contactee scene, Flying Saucer Pilgrimage >(1957). You'll get the idea. (Or, if I may be immodest for the >moment, go to the respective abduction entry [written by >Bullard] and contactee entry in The UFO Encyclopedia.) And the >more you learn about both, the more the two classes of claims >diverge, beginning with those who relate the stories to begin >with. Skeptics as much as proponents are not served by phony >blurring of differences for political advantage. Here Jerry is playing the same tricks of which he accuses sceptics, by comparing apples with bananas. Of course Adamski is a totally different kettle of fish to someone like Travis Walton, and it makes no difference whether you think Walton was abducted by aliens, had a strange psychological experience or is an out-and-out hoaxer. Walton produced no esoteric messages, underwent no profound life changes and did not start a cult around his experience. But both these people are at an extreme ends of a spectrum. I would say that there are rather more people in the ambiguous middle of that spectrum (after all, we have to have a tolerance of ambiguity, don't we Jerry?). I think a more typical example might be John Avis who, along with his family, was abducted in east London in 1974, a case which does not appear in Jerry's encyclopaedia. Although the Avis family are undoubtedly classified as 'abductees' - their experience was involuntary and unrepeated - it had many of the aspects of the classic contactee meeting, including messages from concerned and benevolent-seeming aliens, and subsequent changes in the percipients' lifestyles and philosophy, and discovering an artistic interest and ability. When I spoke to John Avis, some years after the incident, he was clear that part of the meaning his experience was to deliver an ecological warning, which he had tried, in the limited means available to him, to pass on to others. The difference between 'abductee' and 'contactee' is such cases is nowhere near as clear as Jerry pretends. There is no one 'abductee' or 'contactee' experience, but a rich and varied mixture, which, unfortunately, recent obsession with hostile, invading, malevolent ET-style 'abductions' has served to obscure. One has to ask, in whose interest is it to re-write the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:29:06 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:12:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder - Rimmer >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:01:46 +0100 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:44:45 +0100 >>Subject: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >>I, like many British ufologists, are intrigued by the interview >>with Nick Pope, which appeared in this morning's 'Metro' >>newspaper, which is distributed free to commuters at rail and >>Underground stations in London. Describing him in terms which we >>have become used to as "the [Ministry of Defence's] very own Fox >>Mulder, it begins: >>Q: "What did your job as head of the MoD's UFO Project entail?" >>A: "I had been in the MoD since 1985 and did various things - >>they move you around every three years - when they suddenly >>asked me to head the UFO Project. I had no previous interest in >>UFOs, which was probably the best way to come into that job." >>Q: "What did you do every day?" >>A: "We researched and investigated the UFO mystery to see if >>reports of UFOs suggested anything of any defence significance. >>We looked at whether they posed a threat to Britain and if the >>things that were being reported were cause for concern." >>I'd just like to ask Mr Pope: when approached about the job did >>the interviewing panel say, "Mr Pope, this job involves running >>the Ministry's UFO Project"? If not, what exactly did they say? >I was headhunted, so there was no interviewing panel. From 1990 >I'd worked in a part of Secretariat (Air Staff) where much of my >job related to military aircraft accidents. In the run up to the >first Gulf War I'd been seconded into the Joint Operations >Center, working in the Air Force Operations Room as a >watchkeeper/briefer. My immediate boss there asked whether, >after the war, I wanted "Owen's job", as part of a reshuffle. I >knew that the job involved UFOs, but little more than that. I'd >been looking to move, so accepted the offer. It was as simple as >that. This seems a rather casual way of appointing people to head government 'projects'. I'd hardly call it 'headhunting' which suggests careful, even aggressive, selection from among a group of highly qualified individuals. One assumes then, that at no time before your occupation of the desk was the job known as "The UFO Project", and that this concept is purely of your creation? The following response to a question from David Clarke suggests so: "Nick Pope frequently refers to his time at the UFO desk as being part of 'the project' or 'the MoD's UFO project'. Was this term ever used for MOD UFO investigations, formally or informally?" The answer, on MoD letterheaded notepaper dated 13 October 2004 was: "We have never heard of, or seen such a term having ever been used in the MoD." >>And in response to the second question, exactly what proportion >>of your time at the 'UFO desk' was involved with investigating >>UFO reports? >Difficult to say. The job was reactive, so if we had lots of >sightings, we'd investigate; if not, we'd do something else (I >had other duties, including helping to vet books written by >military personnel about the Gulf War). But that's an >oversimplification, as some reports had sufficient information >to warrant a meaningful investigation and some didn't. >Not all work strands were investigative. Other tasks included >responding to general UFO-related correspondence, helping the >Press Office draw up responses to questions from journalists, >miscellaneous research (e.g. trend analysis), drafting responses >to Parliamentary Questions tabled by MPs, analysing >photos/videos, looking at radar tapes, or even helping >schoolchildren with projects on the subject. >Finally, none of this takes account of time spent on work >strands relating to alien abductions, crop circles, cattle >mutilations, reports of ghosts at MOD bases, people volunteering >to become 'psychic spies', or people asking what the MOD could >do to counter the threat posed to the Earth by comets and >asteroids. By "work strands related to alien abductions, crop circles, cattle mutilations, reports of ghosts at MOD bases, people volunteering to become 'psychic spies', or people asking what the MOD could do to counter the threat posed to the Earth by comets and asteroids" do you mean actual investigation of these phenomena during work time, or simply writing polite 'brush off' responses? >With the above in mind, I'd be hard pushed, over ten years after >having left the job, to give a percentage breakdown covering the >respective outputs. According to your accounts, your job appeared to be divided into two distinct parts: work related to investigating UFO reports; and routine work involving writing letters about low-flying aircraft, general enquiries and the other odd jobs that Owen used to do (who is this chap, incidentally, I think we need to know more about him!) which you apparently did in the gaps between UFO investigations. Even after ten years you must have some rough idea how much of your time was spent on the "UFO
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 12 Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:39:42 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:14:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 - Sparks >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 02:38:55 -0400 >Subject: Re: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 >>From: Matthew James Didier <matthew.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 07:52:43 -0400 >>Subject: Philip J. Klass 1919-2005 <snip> >I cannot >recall any sighting where he was at a loss for words or >explanations. Well on the RB-47 case he got stumped when I overturned and refuted every single one of his major explanations and indeed showed how he (Klass) had actually made the case for the UFO stronger. Klass had discovered that an air defense ground radar caused some of the radar emissions detected on the RB-47's Electronic Intelligence (ELINT) equipment. Instead of being worthless, false debunking Phil thus supplied the key to making this case a scientific proof of the existence of UFO's. The RB-47 case stands as the one unique case known (there may be others undiscovered because highly classified) where there were multiple visual witnesses with multiple radar and multiple ELINT trackings of a UFO. It is also the only known TOP SECRET case in the Project Blue Book files (a few others may have been TS but not yet found in incomplete searches so far). Here is how Klass' discovery of the RB-47's detection of the Air Defense Command (ADC) radar beam helped make this the top ranking UFO case of all time: When in 1997 I corrected the mapping errors made by Klass, McDonald, Hynek, et al., the RB-47's flight track suddenly made an exact match to the direction-finding (D/F) measurements taken by the ELINT on the RB-47. Whereas previously for many years I had been stymied in analyzing the case because nothing fit right. Klass had the RB-47 jet traveling too slow (460 mph) because he assumed a 58 mph head wind which weather records proved did not exist (Phil tried to quibble and misrecall the weather data I published, claiming first that it was the wrong date by 2 months then claiming it was at the wrong time or location, in fact it was the Ft. Worth/Carswell AFB radiosonde taken just minutes after the RB-47 chased the UFO around Ft. Worth in a full circle, etc.) Klass also had the subsonic RB-47 jet traveling supersonic in parts of his map, in order to force fit his IFO scenarios, which was ridiculous and a physical impossibility. He simply could not fly the poor RB-47 jet to all the exact places he needed to force it to be in at the exact times it needed to be there so that all his IFO's would work! Now with the correct flight track of the RB-47 jet the ADC ground radar's location precisely fit two of the directional bearings -- and the UFO fit all the rest of the ELINT measurements in the same directions the crew visually sighted the UFO. There were times when both the ADC radar signal and the UFO signal were tracked by the RB-47 at the same time in different directions (or locations) something that Klass was the first to call attention to as meriting further investigation (his attempted explanation was a scientific and physically absurd impossibility). The two ELINT detections of the ADC radar simultaneously with the UFO signal thus provided a real-time calibration of microwave measurements of a UFO, for the first time in history, and thus proved the accuracy of all of the measurements on the UFO. (See my 30-page analysis of the RB-47 case in Jerry Clark's UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd ed., 1998, vol. 2, pp. 761-790. A revised version of this case is in process, which incorporates Klass' questions and comments and my responses.) When Phil read my report he was unable to refute my findings, and merely quibbled with some minor details (where in some cases his own memory was in error because he did not have all his files to consult): "I compliment you on the depth of your research [on the RB-47 case] - although you will not be surprised that I disagree with some of your deductions and conclusions." (Klass letter to Sparks, June 23, 1998). He never did disagree with _all_ of my "deductions and conclusions" on the RB-47 case. For example, Klass had no answer for his erroneous map plotting of the RB-47 course which had the subsonic jet traveling supersonic, nor for the total implosion of his airliner landing lights explanation. Phil had claimed that an American Airlines Flight 966 would have been landing at Dallas at the same time as the RB-47 was flying nearby and chasing the UFO, so maybe the airliner was the visual "UFO" and the radar blip, he suggested in his classic book UFOs Explained and in his 1971 "white paper" on the case. But alas he said there could not be any actual records of whether such a routine airline Flight 966 had been on time in landing at Dallas that one particular morning so long ago back in 1957, though it was "safe to presume" that it was on time (UFOs Explained 1976 ed., p. 241). In my investigation I proved that no such "American Airlines Flight 966" ever even existed, that it was a National Airlines Flight 966 and it was near El Paso some 600 miles away from the RB-47 at the time of the UFO incident, thus could not possibly be involved. In fact, Klass knew full well that he got the very idea for Flight 966 and only knew of its existence and exact flight number because it was Project Blue Book that fabricated that as the official explanation for the case back in 1957 when records were more easily available. And Blue Book had exact records in its files conclusively proving that it was _not_ a "routine" flight but had had a near-collision with another airliner, this time an actual American Flight 355, over Western Texas, at the exact same time the RB-47 was over 600 miles away in Eastern Texas chasing the UFO. The near-collision of two airliners caused several passenger injuries on the westbound Flight 355 landing in El Paso, where some had to be hospitalized, so of course there were _accident_ records proving exactly where the two airliners were located at exactly the time of the incident in Western Texas (5:29 a.m. CDT at 4 miles east of Salt Flat, Texas) which was also the exact time of the UFO incident with the RB-47 over Eastern Texas. The time and location of the airliner near-collision were all in the BB file which Klass had a copy of. I merely verified the accuracy of the details by contacting American Airlines, and checking newspaper reports of the accident. Klass was correct on only one part of the sighting, a minor part, which was indeed a meteor fireball coming headon, but that was just a few seconds out of more than 2 hours of the visual- radar-ELINT sightings and of no relevance to the previous or subsequent ELINT, visual and radar trackings. (The meteor was of course not detected on radar or ELINT, it was just a startling sight to the pilot and co-pilot.) So my thanks to "Uncle Phil" for helping to prove the existence of UFO's. Phil Klass was my friend and colleague despite our many disagreements and sometimes caustic commentary, which
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 13 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:56:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 07:15:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Clark >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:36:19 +0100 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:08:33 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 Patient and gentle Listfolk: >Here Jerry is playing the same tricks of which he accuses >sceptics, by comparing apples with bananas. Of course Adamski is >a totally different kettle of fish to someone like Travis >Walton, and it makes no difference whether you think Walton was >abducted by aliens, had a strange psychological experience or is >an out-and-out hoaxer. >Walton produced no esoteric messages, underwent no profound life >changes and did not start a cult around his experience. >But both these people are at an extreme ends of a spectrum. I >would say that there are rather more people in the ambiguous >middle of that spectrum (after all, we have to have a tolerance >of ambiguity, don't we[,] Jerry?). I'll give Rimmer credit for conjuring up a new rhetorical strategy, via which any logical stretch of imagination can be forgiven. I refuse, however, to indulge him in argument, because I refuse to waste time bringing to earth the pelicanist in the usual polemical flight of fancy - an exercise in futility if ever there was one, akin to trying to argue with a fundamentalist of any persuasion. All John is saying is that because there are no visiting aliens, all reports to the contrary - wherever or whomever they come from - must be the same thing, i.e., no challenge to comfort and current knowledge. It's a hermetically sealed argument from which nothing novel can ever emerge. Which is, of course, the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 13 FATE Magazine's Blog From: Robert A. Goerman <robertgoerman.nul> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 05:22:17 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:27:42 -0400 Subject: FATE Magazine's Blog FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Everyone interested in "True Reports of the Strange & Unknown" will want to visit the new Fatemag.com Blog at http://www.fatemag.com/wordpress Through this lively forum, we will keep you up-to-date on breaking news, upcoming events, The Hilly Rose Show, exclusive FATE content, and all things strange and unknown. The authors of this blog will include: Phyllis Galde, Editor-in-Chief of FATE David �The Amazing� Godwin, FATE�s Managing Editor Andrew Honigman, FATE�s Associate Editor John Zupansic, FATE�s "utility infielder" and, my humble self, Robert Goerman. Published continuously since 1948 and the longest-running publication of its kind, FATE has evolved into a full-color, 130 page monthly magazine that always delivers a one-of-a-kind reading experience. FATE articles are factual, informative, and serves the growing audience of people seeking both answers and entertainment. Yours in research, Robert A. Goerman Unconventional Investigator
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 13 Re: Classy Klass - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:13:07 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:56:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Classy Klass - Rimmer >From: Terry Blanton <commengr.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:02:17 -0400 >Subject: Classy Klass >ebk, >I swore I'd never show this while Phil as alive. It was taken in >Britain at the height of the Alien Autopsy controversy. Phil had >a great sense of humor. >I thought you might wish to share it with the Listers. >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/ufoupdates/listers/terry/klasstopsy.html A magical moment! I was present at the occasion when this photograph was taken, at the Fortean Times UnConvention in London in May, 1997, and a photograph of the Magonia editors with the same alien head appears somewhere on our website. This conference was notable for being one of the few occasions when Klass and Budd Hopkins have been present under the same roof. Hopkins was scheduled to give us updates on the Linda Napolitano case, but simply produced a rehash of old cases, which left the audience very restless, and shot off stage at the end without leaving any time for questions. However, he was careful to mention that while in London he wanted to visit some art galleries (quite naturally, seeing that he is an artist). Such is the nature of the young, educated and open-minded nature of Fortean Times UnConvention audiences that Phil Klass's sceptical talk went down quite well, and we were looking forward to the 'Brains Trust' on the last day when all the main participants, including Klass and Hopkins, were going to be assembled on stage to answer some of the very sharp questions we knew that this audience could throw at them. How disappointing then, that Mr Hopkins should have chosen that very moment to visit one of our great national galleries, and render himself unavailable to face his eager public. However, all was not lost, because the rubber alien (who you will see from the photograph seems to have been a particularly good friend of kindly old Uncle Phil), star attraction in an earlier talk on his own autopsy, was able to take his place on the platform. Judging by Mr Hopkins' performance at his own foreshortened question and answer session, the audience did not miss much. Yes, Phil Klass had a great sense of humour. What a shame that some of the people who have posted rather mean-minded comments
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 13 Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder - Pope From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 09:33:26 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:58:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder - Pope >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:29:06 +0100 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:01:46 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:44:45 +0100 >>>Subject: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder <snip> >>>I'd just like to ask Mr Pope: when approached about the job did >>>the interviewing panel say, "Mr Pope, this job involves running >>>the Ministry's UFO Project"? If not, what exactly did they say? >>I was headhunted, so there was no interviewing panel. From 1990 >>I'd worked in a part of Secretariat (Air Staff) where much of my >>job related to military aircraft accidents. In the run up to the >>first Gulf War I'd been seconded into the Joint Operations >>Center, working in the Air Force Operations Room as a >>watchkeeper/briefer. My immediate boss there asked whether, >>after the war, I wanted "Owen's job", as part of a reshuffle. I >>knew that the job involved UFOs, but little more than that. I'd >>been looking to move, so accepted the offer. It was as simple as >>that. >This seems a rather casual way of appointing people to head >government 'projects'. I'd hardly call it 'headhunting' which >suggests careful, even aggressive, selection from among a group >of highly qualified individuals. It was far from casual. At the time, the normal way of recruiting someone was via a 30 minute selection interview organised by the personnel department. But recruiting someone by virtue of already having worked alongside them has distinct advantages; you already know the candidate, you've had a chance to develop a working relationship, and you've seen and assessed outputs. This was how I was first approached, and indeed I've subsequently recruited people in exactly the same way myself. >One assumes then, that at no time before your occupation of the >desk was the job known as "The UFO Project", and that this >concept is purely of your creation? <snip> In the absence of an official title (e.g. Project Blue Book) describing the work and/or the job is a matter for the individual concerned. One could give the name of the division (i.e. S4, S6, DS8, Sec(AS) or DAS) but this will mean little to anyone other than colleagues in the same area. So people have to say something like "I work in the section that investigates UFO sightings", or "I sit on the UFO Desk". I generally say "I ran the UFO Project". A more detailed description of the outputs can follow, but in the MOD you invariably need a brief way to describe the job you do, without getting into abbreviations. <snip> >>Not all work strands were investigative. Other tasks included >>responding to general UFO-related correspondence, helping the >>Press Office draw up responses to questions from journalists, >>miscellaneous research (e.g. trend analysis), drafting responses >>to Parliamentary Questions tabled by MPs, analysing >>photos/videos, looking at radar tapes, or even helping >>schoolchildren with projects on the subject. >>Finally, none of this takes account of time spent on work >>strands relating to alien abductions, crop circles, cattle >>mutilations, reports of ghosts at MOD bases, people volunteering >>to become 'psychic spies', or people asking what the MOD could >>do to counter the threat posed to the Earth by comets and >>asteroids. >By "work strands related to alien abductions, crop circles, >cattle mutilations, reports of ghosts at MOD bases, people >volunteering to become 'psychic spies', or people asking what >the MOD could do to counter the threat posed to the Earth by >comets and asteroids" do you mean actual investigation of these >phenomena during work time, or simply writing polite 'brush off' >responses? I think the best way I can answer this is to give you an example. My article on the Ministry of Defence's involvement with the crop circle mystery gives an illustration of how things worked in practice, though clearly neither this article nor the chapter on crop circles in my book Open Skies Closed Minds can possibly capture everything that took place: http://www.nickpope.net/crop_circles.htm >>With the above in mind, I'd be hard pushed, over ten years after >>having left the job, to give a percentage breakdown covering the >>respective outputs. >According to your accounts, your job appeared to be divided into >two distinct parts: work related to investigating UFO reports; >and routine work involving writing letters about low-flying >aircraft, general enquiries and the other odd jobs that Owen >used to do (who is this chap, incidentally, I think we need to >know more about him!) which you apparently did in the gaps >between UFO investigations. Even after ten years you must have >some rough idea how much of your time was spent on the "UFO >Project". Was it 10%? 50%? 90%? I'd done work relating to aircraft accidents while in Sec(AS)1a. I then transferred to Sec(AS)2a, which was responsible for policy/investigation/research on UFOs. My other duties there included participation in various exercises/war games designed to test crisis management processes, and helping to vet books written by people who'd served in the Gulf War. I never got involved in complaints about noise from low flying aircraft. That was Sec(AS)2b's business. The Owen I mentioned is Owen Hartop, and the fact that he was my immediate predecessor has been in the public domain for many years. Percentages? Certainly more than 50% by the time I left, but I can't be more precise about it now, over ten years later.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 13 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:26:44 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 09:03:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Rimmer >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:56:22 -0500 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:36:19 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:08:33 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >Patient and gentle Listfolk: >>Here Jerry is playing the same tricks of which he accuses >>sceptics, by comparing apples with bananas. Of course Adamski is >>a totally different kettle of fish to someone like Travis >>Walton, and it makes no difference whether you think Walton was >>abducted by aliens, had a strange psychological experience or is >>an out-and-out hoaxer. >>Walton produced no esoteric messages, underwent no profound life >>changes and did not start a cult around his experience. >>But both these people are at an extreme ends of a spectrum. I >>would say that there are rather more people in the ambiguous >>middle of that spectrum (after all, we have to have a tolerance >>of ambiguity, don't we[,] Jerry?). >I'll give Rimmer credit for conjuring up a new rhetorical >strategy, via which any logical stretch of imagination can be >forgiven. I refuse, however, to indulge him in argument, because >I refuse to waste time bringing to earth the pelicanist in the >usual polemical flight of fancy - an exercise in futility if >ever there was one, akin to trying to argue with a >fundamentalist of any persuasion. >All John is saying is that because there are no visiting aliens, >all reports to the contrary - wherever or whomever they come >from - must be the same thing, i.e., no challenge to comfort and >current knowledge. It's a hermetically sealed argument from >which nothing novel can ever emerge. Which is, of course, the >point. Where does he get this stuff from? Only by snipping most of my post can Jerry come up with this ludicrous response. Most 'Listfolk' are too smart to fall for this, and will want to refer back to my original post, where they will find that Jerry's polemic above bears no relation to its contents. By the way, thanks for the "[,]" That added comma obviously clarifies the parenthetical phrase for the benefit of readers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 13 Re: Classy Klass - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:50:50 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:09:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Classy Klass - Shell >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:13:07 +0100 >Subject: Re: Classy Klass <snip> >Yes, Phil Klass had a great sense of humour. What a shame that >some of the people who have posted rather mean-minded comments >on this List could not appreciate it. Maybe his rather acerbic >irony went down better in Britain than in America. I don't think it is a trans-Atlantic cultural bias so much as many folks in the "UFO community" having great big chips on their shoulders, chips that Phil was frequently swinging at. Just being pro-UFO does not a nice person make, nor does being a skeptic automatically make one an a**hole. I liked Phil, and found him funny and charming, even though we disagreed. I've met many people in the UFO community that I agree with, but would not invite into my house.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 13 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:25:48 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:11:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Clark >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:26:44 +0100 >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:56:22 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:36:19 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:08:33 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 Patient and gentle Listfolk: >>>But both these people are at an extreme ends of a spectrum. I >>>would say that there are rather more people in the ambiguous >>>middle of that spectrum (after all, we have to have a tolerance >>>of ambiguity, don't we[,] Jerry?). >>I'll give Rimmer credit for conjuring up a new rhetorical >>strategy, via which any logical stretch of imagination can be >>forgiven. I refuse, however, to indulge him in argument, because >>I refuse to waste time bringing to earth the pelicanist in the >>usual polemical flight of fancy - an exercise in futility if >>ever there was one, akin to trying to argue with a >>fundamentalist of any persuasion. >>All John is saying is that because there are no visiting aliens, >>all reports to the contrary - wherever or whomever they come >>from - must be the same thing, i.e., no challenge to comfort and >>current knowledge. It's a hermetically sealed argument from >>which nothing novel can ever emerge. Which is, of course, the >>point. >Where does he get this stuff from? Rather, the question ought to be, where does John Rimmer get this stuff from? It begins, I think, with a desire to domesticate the anomalous and to render it safe and unthreatening to the sensibilities of the middle-class British liberal-arts major. (In one notorious instance, Magonia - that English magazine so keenly attuned to deep currents of American thought - transformed abducting aliens into Hispanic immigrants, the very presence of whom has driven non- Hispanic Americans into such fits of delirious panic that some of our citizens hallucinate menacing space-visitor stand-ins for Mexicans. This is a social and psychological phenomenon that has somehow escaped the attention of America's social scientists.) I find it amusing that - on the other side - contactee supporters seek to tie contact claims to abductions in an effort to lend the former credibility, while on your side the same link is proposed to diffuse the credibility of the latter. As anyone who is able to look at this without blinkers has seen for a long time, abductions to every appearance extend themes and images from CE3s (including the high strangeness), not from contact claims (HS being notoriously [and tellingly] absent from tedious contactee narratives). I suppose that we'll be told next that CE3 witnesses are actually contactees - excuse me, "different points on the same spectrum." This is nonsense, as Isabel Davis (whose sharp intellect and stinging wit are still sorely missed) demonstrated memorably as long ago as 1957. It is also the reason that phrases like "pelicanism" get coined. Like other fair-minded people, I am open to new ideas. My long career documents changes of mind, including serious ones, over time, and they continue. I am not, however, so open-minded as to allow brains to fall out of my head; thus, I am unsympathetic to the belief, hardly a compellingly demonstrated one, that no visiting aliens are or could be here; therefore, _all_ claims to the contrary fall on a spectrum on which George Adamski occupies a prominent place. Let's put it this way: Most Listfolk would agree that some people have very odd experiences - however they may be explained when we know more than we know now - and that other people just make up stories. Any attempt to blur the distinction gets us precisely nowhere. Or into the pages of Magonia, which may be the same thing. >Only by snipping most of my post can Jerry come up with this >ludicrous response. Most 'Listfolk' are too smart to fall for >this, and will want to refer back to my original post, where >they will find that Jerry's polemic above bears no relation to >its contents. The sadly predictable squawk after the essential silliness of the pelicanist has been demonstrated yet again. >By the way, thanks for the "[,]" That added comma obviously >clarifies the parenthetical phrase for the benefit of readers >who may not have understood its meaning otherwise. Let's see now. It's _my_ fault that our correspondent doesn't
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 13 Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:23:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:23:43 -0400 Subject: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers Source: The New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/09/health/09alien.html August 9, 2005 Health Books on Science "Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped by Aliens," by Susan Clancy. Harvard University Press, $22.95. Explaining Those Vivid Memories Of Martian Kidnappers By Benedict Carey People who have memories of being abducted by aliens become hardened skeptics, of a kind. They dismiss the procession of scientists who explain away the memories as illusions or fantasy. They scoff at talk about hypnosis or the unconscious processing of Hollywood scripts. And they hold their ground amid snickers from a public that thinks that they are daft or psychotic. They are neither, it turns out, and their experiences should be taken as seriously as any strongly held exotic beliefs, according to Susan Clancy, a Harvard psychologist who interviewed dozens of self-described abductees as part of a series of memory studies over the last several years. In her book "Abducted," due in October, Dr. Clancy, a psychologist at Harvard, manages to refute and defend these believers, and along the way provide a discussion of current research into memory, emotion and culture that renders abduction stories understandable, if not believable. Although it focuses on abduction memories, the book hints at a larger ambition, to explain the psychology of transformative experiences, whether supposed abductions, conversions or divine visitations. "Understanding why people believe weird things is important for anyone who wishes to know more about people - that is, humans in general," she writes. Dr. Clancy's accounting for abduction memories starts with an odd but not uncommon experience called sleep paralysis. While in light dream-rich REM sleep, people will in rare cases wake up for a few moments and find themselves unable to move. Psychologists estimate that about a fifth of people will have that experience at least once, during which some 5 percent will be bathed in terrifying sensations like buzzing, full-body electrical quivers, a feeling of levitation, at times accompanied by hallucinations of intruders. Some of them must have an explanation as exotic as the surreal nature of the experience itself. Although no one has studied this group systematically, Dr. Clancy suggests based on her interviews, that they tend to be people who already have some interest in the paranormal, mystical arts and the possibility of extraterrestrial visitors. Often enough, their search for meaning lands them in the care of a therapist who uses hypnotism to elicit more details of their dreamlike experiences. Hypnotism is a state of deep relaxation, when people become highly prone to suggestion, psychologists find. When encouraged under hypnosis to imagine a vivid but entirely concocted incident - like being awakened by loud noises - people are more likely later to claim the scene as a real experience, studies find. Where, exactly, do the green figures with the wraparound eyes come from? From the deep well of pop culture, Dr. Clancy argues, based on a review of the history of U.F.O. sightings, popular movies and television programs on aliens. The first "abduction" in the United States was dramatized in 1953, in the movie "Invaders From Mars," she writes, and a rash of abduction reports followed this and other works on aliens, including the television series "The Outer Limits." One such report, by a couple from New Hampshire, Betty and Barney Hill, followed by days a particularly evocative episode of the show in 1961. Mr. Hill's description of the aliens - with big heads and shiny wraparound eyes - was featured in a best- selling book about the experience, and inspired the alien forms in Steven Spielberg's "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" in 1977, according to Dr. Clancy. Thus does life imitate art, and vice versa, in a narrative hall of mirrors in which scenes and even dialogues are recycled. Although they are distinct in details, abduction narratives are extremely similar in broad outline and often include experimentation with a sexual or procreative subtext. "Oh! And he's opening my shirt, and - he's going to put that thing in my navel," says one 1970's narrative, referring to a needle. "I can feel them moving that thing around in my stomach, in my body," the narrative, excerpted in the book, continues. The passage echoes other abduction accounts, past and future. In a laboratory study in 2002, Dr. Clancy and another Harvard psychologist, Richard McNally, gave self-described abductees a standardized word-association test intended to measure proneness to false-memory creation. The participants studied lists of words that were related to one another - "sugar," "candy," "sour," "bitter" - and to another word that was not on the list, in this case, "sweet." When asked to recall the word lists, those with abduction memories were more likely than a group of peers who had no such memories to falsely recall the unlisted word. The findings suggest a susceptibility to what are called source errors, misattributing sources of remembered information by, say, confusing a scene from a barely remembered movie with a dream. In another experiment, the researchers found that recalling abduction memories prompted physiological changes in blood pressure and sweat-gland activity that were higher than those seen in post-traumatic stress syndrome. The memories produced intense emotional trauma, and each time that occurs it deepens the certainty that something profound really did happen. Although no one of those elements - sleep paralysis, interest in the paranormal, hypnotherapy, memory tricks or emotional investment - is necessary or sufficient to create abduction memories, they tend to cluster together in self-described abductees, Dr. Clancy finds. "In the past, researchers have tended to concentrate on one or another" factor, she said in an interview. "I'm saying they all play a role." Yet abduction narratives often have another, less explicit, dimension that Dr. Clancy suspects may be central to their power. Consider this comment, from a study participant whom Dr. Clancy calls Jan, a middle-age divorc=E9e engaged in a quest for personal understanding: "You know, they do walk among us on earth. They have to transform first into a physical body, which is very painful for them. But they do it out of love. They are here to tell us that we're all interconnected in some way. Everything is." At a basic level, Dr. Clancy concludes, alien abduction stories give people meaning, a way to comprehend the many odd and dispiriting things that buffet any life, as well as a deep sense that they are not alone in the universe. In this sense, abduction memories are like transcendent religious visions, scary and yet somehow comforting and, at some personal psychological level, true. Dr. Clancy said she regretted not having asked the abductees she interviewed about religious beliefs, which were not a part of her original research. The reader may regret that, too. The warmth, awe and emotion of abduction stories and of those who tell them betray strong spiritual currents that will be familiar to millions of people whose internal lives are animated
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 13 The Late Philip J. Klass From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 11:17:42 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:26:12 -0400 Subject: The Late Philip J. Klass [This is a slightly edited version of a posting sent a day or two ago to the Project 1947 list. I thought I'd shared it with Updates readers. It was in response to an astute judgment of Klass's career by Joel Carpenter. - J. Clark] ----- Hi, Joel, >I think it's safe to estimate that time will prove him wrong in >his assessment of the UFO issue. Maybe not totally wrong, but >his blanket dismissiveness was a definite mistake. This is a fair assessment, though Klass was as close to "totally wrong" as one can be on anything except the most inconsequential details. The so-called skeptics movement made a mistake - or, more likely, betrayed its hand - in tying itself to Klass's star. My friend Marcello Truzzi, who was a smart, thoughtful skeptic to whom, even when I vehemently disagreed, I had to listen (out of self-preservation; Marcello was often right), used to say that the problem with Klass was that he was a lousy skeptic. Marcello held Klass in open contempt. Klass and I corresponded pretty much nonstop from the late 1970s into the early 1990s. I tried - and man, did I try - but I never found it possible to like him or to see him as an intellectually honest (or even, at times, entirely sane) opponent. He was obsessed to the point of destructiveness, not just of others but ultimately of himself. History will not be kind to him. But of course there is always an "on the other hand." On that hand he was a significant figure in the history of ufology, and he forced ufologists (at least the best of them) to professionalize and to look harder at their own ideas and convictions. That was to the good. On the third hand, sadly, Klass failed to apply that lesson to himself. Klass considered himself incapable of error, even when he was ludicrously off the map. In the end he was just another fanatic, of whom there already have been too many in the history (not to mention present) of this thorny subject. He matched the famous
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 13 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Harney From: John Harney <magonia.nul> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:33:51 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:33:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Harney >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:08:33 -0500 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >It's less a serious argument than a rhetorical strategy. Any >serious analysis of anything, ufological or otherwise, needs to >expose what is similar among phenomena, but it also needs to >discern differences; otherwise, the discussion gets us nowhere. >Which may be the point of the abductee/contactee equivalance >anyway. Contactees are pretty easy to dismiss; many abductees >aren't; but if abductees are really just a subset of contactees >... well, the strategical purpose is obvious enough. If it's >unscholarly and intellectually sloppy, at least it lets those >who so need it to rest easy. This is _not_ an argument about >alien visitation, by the way. One doesn't have to hold a literal >interpretation of the abduction phenomenon to put, say, Travis >Walton or Debbie Jordan in an essentially different category >from George Adamski or Billy Meier. Nobody is asserting that there are no significant differences between abductees and contactees, merely that the differences tend to get somewhat exaggerated in North American ufology. Your statement "Contactees are pretty easy to dismiss; many abductees aren't" shows the bias against certain types of UFO narrative. If we don't need to "hold a literal interpretation", then what is the point of dismissing certain kinds of reports? If we are not taking them literally then they are all surely worth studying and comparing. Also, if we don't have to take them literally then what, precisely, are your objections to the PSH? Or do you want us to take _some_ of them literally? If so, which ones? >Skeptics as much as proponents are not served by phony >blurring of differences for political advantage. Political advantage? I didn't know that Democrats and Republicans had conflicting policies on how to deal with contactees/abductees. Certainly British parties don't seem to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 13 Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:30:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 14:36:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:23:43 -0400 UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>writes: >Source: The New York Times >http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/09/health/09alien.html >August 9, 2005 >Health >Books on Science >"Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped by >Aliens," >by Susan Clancy. Harvard University Press, $22.95. >Explaining Those Vivid Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >By Benedict Carey The NT Times account of Susan Clancy's book is a review that pretends to be fair and objective. But being schooled in psychology, my major and partial career choice for several years, I can only say that psychology is a subjective art form, not science. Clancy attributes alien abductions to the usual sleep paralysis paradigm and she explains other attributes as any psychologist might, by subjective interpretation. Surely, a few abductee accounts may be attributed to some temporary mental or sleep aberration but most have a pattern that requires scientific analysis, because the pattern is unique, and far outside what is recounted by those afflicted by sleep disorders or psychosis. Clancy, like many psychologists, got into their field because they have inner problems that they are continually trying to understand, often at the expense of their patients. (Psychology contains, next to CPAs, the highest incidents of suicide, which should make pronouncements by those in the field highly suspect.) Clancy does a disservice to abductees and those who ponder abductee experiences by evaluating the "abductions" in terms that are unscientific and personal. John Mack, rest his soul, was nearly on to the paradigm that accounts for abduction reports. Clancy is on to a career move, by suggesting her study (and book) is a valid academic enterprise. It isn't. Nothing psychological can be. It's smoke and mirrors and has been since the heyday of Freud, who was a genius, but not in a scientific sense.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 13 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:27:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 14:38:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Clark >From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:33:51 +0100 >Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:08:33 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 John, >Nobody is asserting that there are no significant differences >between abductees and contactees, merely that the differences >tend to get somewhat exaggerated in North American ufology. Oh, those pesky North American ufologists, the center of all evil in the ufological universe. >Your statement "Contactees are pretty easy to dismiss; many >abductees aren't" shows the bias against certain types of UFO >narrative. If we don't need to "hold a literal interpretation", >then what is the point of dismissing certain kinds of reports? >If we are not taking them literally then they are all surely >worth studying and comparing. >Also, if we don't have to take them literally then what, >precisely, are your objections to the PSH? Or do you want us to >take _some_ of them literally? If so, which ones? My objections to the PSH are voluminously documented. No need to rehash them here. My own ideas about what may be happening - or at least how we may think about them till we understand the dynamics of anomalous experience a hell of a lot better than we do now - have been published in various places, most recently in the introduction to my new book Unnatural Phenomena (ABC-CLIO, June 2005). The PSH, as I have often pointed out, is no more than a continuation of the disbelief tradition which has been less than helpful - I am being charitable - in addressing the questions raised by anomalous reports. At one time, it was my impression that Magonia was trying to find a third way, between literalist and dismissive approaches, but that was quite awhile ago. These days there isn't a nickel's worth of difference between Magonia and Skeptical Inquirer, beyond the fact that SI has a larger circulation and more influence. Both will publish slobbering obituaries of Phil Klass. >>Skeptics as much as proponents are not served by phony >>blurring of differences for political advantage. >Political advantage? I didn't know that Democrats and >Republicans had conflicting policies on how to deal with >contactees/abductees. Certainly British parties don't seem to >have anything to say on this topic, not even the Monster Raving >Loony Party. Uh huh. Apparently to you "politics" is something that happens only among parties contesting elections. I can only infer that you are less intellectually sophisticated than I would have thought. I meant, of course, manipulation of opinion by
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 13 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:40:40 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:04:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Rogerson >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:25:48 -0500 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:26:44 +0100 >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:56:22 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 <snip> >>>All John is saying is that because there are no visiting aliens, >>>all reports to the contrary - wherever or whomever they come >>>from - must be the same thing, i.e., no challenge to comfort and >>>current knowledge. It's a hermetically sealed argument from >>>which nothing novel can ever emerge. Which is, of course, the >>>point. >>Where does he get this stuff from? >Rather, the question ought to be, where does John Rimmer get >this stuff from? It begins, I think, with a desire to >domesticate the anomalous and to render it safe and >unthreatening to the sensibilities of the middle-class British >liberal-arts major. (In one notorious instance, Magonia - that >English magazine so keenly attuned to deep currents of American >thought - transformed abducting aliens into Hispanic immigrants, >the very presence of whom has driven non- Hispanic Americans >into such fits of delirious panic that some of our citizens >hallucinate menacing space-visitor stand-ins for Mexicans. <snip> The piece about Hispanics you mention was from a Northern Echoes tongue in cheek provocation piece I wrote back in 1989 and didn't mention the word abductee once, and was actually about the dark side tales of Lear and Co. However since you bring this up, there are definite signs of fears of racial contamination in the works of David Jacobs. Just go through his 2 abduction books substituting Jew/black for alien/hybrid in appropriate places. Many a true word spoken in jest perhaps. I am still waiting for your answer from my previous post on the abductee/contactee theme. Where do you put Artur Berlet, Syd
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 14 Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:44:19 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 08:55:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:30:22 -0500 >Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:23:43 -0400 UFO UpDates - Toronto ><ufoupdates.nul>writes: >>Source: The New York Times > >>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/09/health/09alien.html > >>August 9, 2005 > >>Health >>Books on Science >>"Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped by >>Aliens," >>by Susan Clancy. Harvard University Press, $22.95. >>Explaining Those Vivid Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>By Benedict Carey <snip> >Clancy does a disservice to abductees and those who ponder >abductee experiences by evaluating the "abductions" in terms >that are unscientific and personal. >John Mack, rest his soul, was nearly on to the paradigm that >accounts for abduction reports. Clancy is on to a career move, >by suggesting her study (and book) is a valid academic >enterprise. >It isn't. Nothing psychological can be. It's smoke and mirrors >and has been since the heyday of Freud, who was a genius, but >not in a scientific sense. >Clancy, like some in ufology, can be discounted, which is what >her book will end up being, sooner than later...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 14 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 16:13:42 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:14:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Clark >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:40:40 +0100 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:25:48 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:26:44 +0100 >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 20:56:22 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 Hi, Peter, >The piece about Hispanics you mention was from a Northern Echoes >tongue in cheek provocation piece I wrote back in 1989 and >didn't mention the word abductee once, and was actually about >the dark side tales of Lear and Co. However since you bring this >up, there are definite signs of fears of racial contamination in >the works of David Jacobs. Just go through his 2 abduction books >substituting Jew/black for alien/hybrid in appropriate places. >Many a true word spoken in jest perhaps. I think you've validated my point in more ways than one. What makes the PSH so amusing is its consistent make-it-up-as-you-go- along quality. If I had more time on my hands, I'd compile an article - it would be a long one - citing all of the various "explanations" Magonians have thrown at the abduction phenomenon, drawn in good part on (British) Magonians' limitless insights into the deepest recesses of the American psyche. We've seen one - or is it two? - above. Here's another one from you; I cite it instead of any other particular example only because this one happens to be at hand: "[American UFO and abduction reports comprise] a folklore in which the man and woman in the street is [sic] threatened by both the limitless power of the 'wholly other,' from which not even the bedroom is safe, and the arbitrary power of a state bureaucracy widely believed to go round assassinating and intimidating those who have discovered its appalling secret. Beyond the crashed saucer stories lies the fear that passionless symbols of pure reason are in command, and somehow need to steal our passion and our physicality in order to survive and reproduce. The atrophied 'animal parts' of the alien cadavers have their psychological counterpart in the 'glacial indifference' of the abductors. These are, of course, literal 'eggheads,' the antithesis of the 'red-blooded American male,' and thus the ultimate symbol of un-Americanism." Now, let's see if we can sort this out. Besides fear of racial contamination, abductees are driven, "of course," by fear of (a) limitless power (b) intrusion of strangers into bedrooms (c) bureaucrats (d) assassins (e) keepers of secrets (f) pure reason (g) organ thieves (h) coldly indifferent individuals (i) intellectuals (j) insufficient masculinity (k) unpatriotic sentiment. Ah, we may well ask, where does it all end? The answer, my friends, is this: As long as Magonia and Magonians survive to make it up as they go along. >I am still waiting for your answer from my previous post on the >abductee/contactee theme. Where do you put Artur Berlet, Syd >Patrick, Jim Cooke, Betty Andreasson, Joao Guimaraes, Olaf >Nielsen, Mario Zuccola etc. Hmm... I was unaware that you were waiting for anything. I didn't see the post you refer to, but then I was out of town most of the week. At any rate: I think you mean Sid, not Syd, Padrick, the subject of an entry in The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd ed., pp. 692-94. (Perhaps, "of course," you could be referring to somebody whose name _is_ Syd Patrick; if so, I am unfamiliar with his claim.) Always interesting to me because it is so unusual, Sid Padrick's story remains a puzzling anomaly, similar to but also and equally uncharacteristic of either CE3s or contact claims. Only a highly foolish or desperate observer would draw sweeping conclusions from it. Betty Andreasson's case strikes me as an episode of runaway confabulation - hardly an original judgment on my part. If memory serves, I've read as much in Magonia. As for the others, I will leave it to those who know more about them to comment. I can only ask if you have some particular reason to believe they are not hoaxes. I presume that you mention them because they're oddities, out of the pattern and mainstream of either CE3s or contact claims. Thus the small number of names, appended with a not very persuasive "etc." To the extent that the "etc." is anything more than a rhetorical flourish, by the way, I'd count Gary Wilcox's close encounter,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 14 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 22:16:15 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:18:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Rogerson >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:27:54 -0500 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:33:51 +0100 >>Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:08:33 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >John, >>Nobody is asserting that there are no significant differences >>between abductees and contactees, merely that the differences >>tend to get somewhat exaggerated in North American ufology. >Oh, those pesky North American ufologists, the center of all >evil in the ufological universe. >>Your statement "Contactees are pretty easy to dismiss; many >>abductees aren't" shows the bias against certain types of UFO >>narrative. If we don't need to "hold a literal interpretation", >>then what is the point of dismissing certain kinds of reports? >>If we are not taking them literally then they are all surely >>worth studying and comparing. >>Also, if we don't have to take them literally then what, >>precisely, are your objections to the PSH? Or do you want us to >>take _some_ of them literally? If so, which ones? >My objections to the PSH are voluminously documented. No need to >rehash them here. My own ideas about what may be happening - or >at least how we may think about them till we understand the >dynamics of anomalous experience a hell of a lot better than we >do now - have been published in various places, most recently in >the introduction to my new book Unnatural Phenomena (ABC-CLIO, >June 2005). The PSH, as I have often pointed out, is no more >than a continuation of the disbelief tradition which has been >less than helpful - I am being charitable - in addressing the >questions raised by anomalous reports. >At one time, it was my impression that Magonia was trying to >find a third way, between literalist and dismissive approaches, >but that was quite awhile ago. These days there isn't a nickel's >worth of difference between Magonia and Skeptical Inquirer, >beyond the fact that SI has a larger circulation and more >influence. Both will publish slobbering obituaries of Phil >Klass. >>>Skeptics as much as proponents are not served by phony >>>blurring of differences for political advantage. >>Political advantage? I didn't know that Democrats and >>Republicans had conflicting policies on how to deal with >>contactees/abductees. Certainly British parties don't seem to >>have anything to say on this topic, not even the Monster Raving >>Loony Party. >Uh huh. Apparently to you "politics" is something that happens >only among parties contesting elections. I can only infer that >you are less intellectually sophisticated than I would have >thought. I meant, of course, manipulation of opinion by >"shrewdness in managing, contriving, or dealing" (Webster's). You obviously miss the many critical comments we in Magonia have made over the years about CSICOP. My problem with them is that they are not sceptical enough, as witness the uncritical belief in James Randi, and have many of the features of a quasi religion complete with conversion narratives etc. I assume that this just part of American religiosity, even the atheists have to set up a church of some sort. I imagine that there will be skeptics Sunday Schools before too long. Magonia does indeed take a third position. Reports of anomalous personal experiences are of interest as folklore and, at the least, are telling us something interesting about human perception, memory and how they human brain works. Some may be generated by a variety of poorly understood environmental phenomena and the interaction between these and the human brain. However we are indeed sceptical of the beliefs and theories
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 14 Noted UFO Debunker Klass Dies At 85 From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:35:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:35:04 -0400 Subject: Noted UFO Debunker Klass Dies At 85 Source: Florida Today - Melbourne, Florida http://tinyurl.com/7bz3b August 12, 2005 Noted UFO Debunker Klass Dies At 85 Was well-known aviation writer By Kimberly C. Moore Florida Today Philip J. Klass spent a 50-year career meticulously researching stories on the latest in aviation technology as a senior editor for Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine. He spent his off hours trying to disprove the existence of UFOs. Klass died Tuesday of prostate cancer at the Merritt Island home he shared with his wife of 25 years, Nadya. "He fought very hard," said Nadya, a former news editor with Voice of America. Klass, 85, was born and raised in Iowa, the son of a lawyer. He earned a degree in electrical engineering from Iowa State and went on to work for General Electric in aviation development. In 1952, he switched careers to journalism. His sister, Rosanne Klass of New York City, said her brother was always building crystal radio sets as a boy. She remembers his first glimpse of his future at a fairground in Cedar Rapids. "As a Boy Scout, he won a contest, and the prize was a chance to go up in an autogyro, now called a helicopter," Rosanne Klass said, adding that her parents stood by frightened as her brother ascended. "In my mind, I can see Phil in his Boy Scout uniform in the autogyro." He received numerous awards for his reporting, but he became culturally known for his UFO work, earning criticism from those who insist UFOs and aliens are real. He published "UFOs Identified" in 1968, along with four other books that explained away UFOs. Klass was one of the founders of the Committee for Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP) and a regular contributor to its journal, Skeptical Inquirer. He famously offered $10,000 to anyone whose UFO or alien abduction claims could be verified by the FBI. He never paid a reward. David Jacobs, a Temple University history professor and alien abduction expert, said Klass was dedicated to his cause. The two argued their points on CNN's "Larry King Live" in 1993. "Regardless of evidence, regardless of logic, regardless of disconfirming information, he always set his path clearly on one course and that was that the UFO phenomenon was not extraterrestrial and had no basis in reality," Jacobs said Thursday night. He added, though, "I wish that UFO researchers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 14 Re: The Martian Factor - Sheryl From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:27:26 +1000 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:37:40 -0400 Subject: Re: The Martian Factor - Sheryl The Martian Factor by Keith Flitcroft ISBN No. 1-9210-0588-2 Published by Poseidon Books Qld Ph 7 55 755 141 Fax 7 55 755 142 Email - info.nul P.O. Box 2554 Burleigh M.D.C. Qld 4220 Australia. Length - 42,000 words approx. Expected to retail at $22.00 Available from the Publishers plus $6 postage and handling. Also from Angus & Robertson or Dymocks This is a book by an Australian author about events in Australia and published by an Australian firm. The Theme A Martian is dropped here to ascertain the reactions of Australians to UFO activity. bushfire, narrowly escaping being roasted. By accident he lands in the path of a bushfire, narrowly escaping being roasted. He interviews a UFO researcher in each Australian state for reports of sightings, actual and close encounters, plus the retrieval of a crashed disc. (Yes we have had them all) The Martian and the researchers are, fictitional but all reports are factual and chosen to be : As arresting and dramatic as possible. To reveal evidence of intelligent life on our Moon and Mars. (Plenty of proof). To demonstrate UFO characteristics such as appearance, speed, manoeuvres, illumination and sound, interference to car ignition, radio and T.V., production of a temporary substance called Angel's Hair, causing an illusion of lost time.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 14 Sandow On Klass [was: Classy Klass] From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 01:13:44 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:58:49 -0400 Subject: Sandow On Klass [was: Classy Klass] >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:50:50 -0400 >Subject: Re: Classy Klass >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:13:07 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Classy Klass >>Yes, Phil Klass had a great sense of humour. What a shame that >>some of the people who have posted rather mean-minded comments >>on this List could not appreciate it. Maybe his rather acerbic >>irony went down better in Britain than in America. >I don't think it is a trans-Atlantic cultural bias so much as >many folks in the "UFO community" having great big chips on >their shoulders, chips that Phil was frequently swinging at. I won't make any claims about who has the bigger chips on their shoulders, UFO believers or UFO skeptics. But I'll retell my own Phil Klass stories, which certainly show that, at least when I talked with him and exchanged letters, he wasn't thinking very clearly. And he was making absurd assumptions in order to support his arguments, in some cases about subjects he didn't know anything about. Here's the story. I interviewed him in his home in Washington for maybe two hours, to gather material for a series of articles I was writing about UFOs for a music magazines. This would have been around 1995. (For those who might not know this, American rock magazines in those days - and maybe still - regularly ran serious articles on serious subjects other than music.) Phil couldn't have been a more cordial host. I met his wife, met his dog, listened to his rather labored jokes about alien bodies in the freezer in his basement. I also listened - with very wide, disbelieving eyes, but without making any comment - to his assertion that the corporations he wrote about for Aviation Week (the ones who build planes for the US armed forces) were scrupulously honest in their dealings with the U.S. government. I've never heard anyone say such an improbable thing with such a straight face. Maybe he believed it. When we talked about UFOs, we spent a long time discussing the Chiles-Whitted sighting, one of the hoary old classics from the 1940s. (I hope I have the names right.) I'd asked him a fairly simple question. The sighting, as many people on this List will remember, involved two airline pilots who saw what they believed was a craft with windows pass by their plane at night. In his book UFOs Explained, Phil says that the pilots "unquestionably" saw a meteor. I asked him about "unquestionably." (Again, I hope I'm remembering the exact word he used in his book.) I told him I wouldn't deny that the pilots could have seen a meteor. But since no meteor was tracked that night at that location, why did he write that they unquestionably saw one? He took a long time answering. Did I own a computer? he asked. I said I did. Then what would I do if something went wrong with it? Would I think that evil spirits were responsible, or would I take the machine to a computer repair shop? What he was getting at was clear enough. To believe that the pilots had seen an alien craft was as irrational as believing that evil spirits had messed up my computer. I asked him if that's what he was saying. "I do not understand your question," he replied, and asked me again what I would do to fix my computer. Around and around we went. He lectured me on the fallibility of perception, with heavy stress on occasions when people reported seeing unknown flying craft with windows, when it's known beyond any doubt that they were seeing something more mundane, like a satellite re-entry. I told him that I agreed with him. Perception is fallible. I suggested - almost talking like a lawyer - that we stipulate that this is true, that perception can be wrong, and move on to the question I'd asked. But still he persisted in his lectures. Please note, skeptics on the List, and others who might want to defend Phil on this point - I was _agreeing_ with him. And still he wouldn't stop lecturing me. Of course, I can be pretty stubborn myself, and I kept returning to my question. Of course perception is fallible, I said. Of course the pilots might have been mistaken. Of course they could have seen a meteor, and imagined that it was a craft with windows. But how do we _know_ they saw a meteor? How could Phil write that this was _unquestionably_ true? So finally he answered me. We were using fairly stilted language at this point, something I believe I initiated, because I wanted to keep my account of the sighting absolutely neutral. So I was referring to the pilots' belief, not that they saw an alien spaceship (since as far as I know they never said any such thing), but that they had seen an "anomalous structured craft." Or something like that. Phil's answer went something like this: "Since I believe there are no anomalous structured craft flying in our atmosphere, the pilots could not have seen any such thing." And there you have it. Circular reasoning, as classic an example as you'll ever find. And now, as if this post weren't long enough already, I have to say that the fun is only beginning. I never wrote the series of articles I'd interviewed Phil for. But somehow we fell into correspondence. I remember we'd talked briefly about Roswell. I mentioned that I'd seen videos of Melvin Brown's family talking about what they said was Brown's belief that he'd been involved in the recovery of an alien craft. Now, please note, everyone, that I'm not saying Brown's family was correct, or that Brown (deceased at the time of those interviews) really did believe any such thing. And I'm not taking any position on Roswell. But I do have a position on one small - but, I think, telling - part of Phil's anti-Roswell polemic. Melvin Brown, for those who may not have waded through all of this, was a cook at the Roswell army air base, and allegedly was ordered to guard the crash site (along, of course, with many other people). "A cook!" Phil scoffed. "Why would a _cook_ be standing guard?" Well, at that time I was seeing a woman whose stepfather had been an Army cook during World War II. For whatever it's worth, I asked him if he ever did guard duty. His answer was that it happened all the time, that officers would come through the bases he was at, looking for guards, and that basically they'd snatch up anyone they found. My girlfriend's stepfather said he and others used to duck out of sight when they saw officers coming (I assume they could tell by the officers' body language what the officers had in mind), so they wouldn't get picked for guard duty. I wrote Phil a letter with this information. But, you know, he couldn't bear to be wrong, so - while he replied on many other points - he didn't, as I remember, say even a single word about cooks standing guard. He didn't even make one obvious reply, which would have been, "Well, sure, cooks were asked to stand guard in routine situations, but they'd never have asked a cook to guard something as sensitive as the crash of an alien spaceship." What I learned from this, above all, is that Phil often enough jumped to conclusions. He more or less made up the idea that cooks would never stand guard, without, apparently, actually asking anyone who knew about that period of American military life whether his assumption was correct. But don't stop reading yet. It gets better. A couple of years later, I wrote a piece about UFOs for what was then an annual new age supplement to the Village Voice, which at that time was the leading alternative weekly in New York. I described the tussle Phil and I had over that ancient sighting. A few months later, I got a letter from Phil. How, he asked, could I recount such a discussion, when he and I had never met? Luckily for me, he'd autographed my copy of UFOs Explained, helpfully adding the date. So I wrote back, enclosing a photocopy of the autograph with the date, and described his home, his wife, his dog, and even the photos on the wall of his study (which I'd had lots of time to look at while he lectured me). His reply to this was, to say the least, remarkable. He acknowledged, gracefully enough, that he was wrong. We really had met. He even praised my powers of observation. And then, without skipping a beat, he went on to say that my account of our conversation couldn't be reliable, because I was a _music_critic_, and as such my expertise was in writing my _opinion_, and not in reporting _facts_. This from someone who one sentence earlier had praised my powers of observation! (People who've corresponded with Phil will recognize my imitation of his characteristic emphases. His letters were peppered with underlined words.) And now things got really funny. I was indeed a music critic in those days (I've gone on to become a consultant to classical music groups, and a composer). And I certainly could claim some expertise in classical music. Phil, sad to say, had none. But that didn't stop him from telling me that any musical claim I made was absurd. Evidently, he wouldn't let himself back away from his contention that I only knew how to state my opinion, and that I had no experience reporting facts. I wrote him a reply, pointing out something very obvious to anyone who knows anything about music criticism. Critics have to report facts very often, and have to be very careful to get them right. I went so far as to send him samples of my writing, which of course were full of factual observations. And can you believe that he took issue with one of them? In a review of a concert by the New York Philharmonic, I'd mentioned something rather shocking, in a performance by an orchestra that eminent. The first violins weren't playing rhythmically together. The violinists sitting in the back were audibly dragging behind the violinistss sitting in the front. Because this is a very severe criticism - or at least any professional musician would see it that way - I actually stated the exact place in the music where the problem occurred. Talk about factual observations! I couldn't be more specific than that. Beethoven's Seventh Symphony, second movement, measures 283 t0 285 - that's where the violins weren't together. (Full disclosure: I'm making up those measure numbers, because it's late at night, and I don't want to look up my review, and see what I actually wrote. But you get the idea.) Phil wrote to me and said that I was being absurd. If the violins were that bad, he said, the conductor would fire them! Right, and cooks never stand guard. As any classical music professional can tell you, musicians in American orchestras belong to the musicians' union, and very complex contracts govern their employment. No conductor has the power simply to fire any musician he or she doesn't like. In fact, American orchestra musicians are almost never fired; any insider can tell you about the problems that causes, or about the decade-long struggle between Seiji Ozawa, when he was music director of the Boston Symphony, and a trumpet player he wanted to get rid of. In those days, everybody in the business knew the Philharmonic's violins weren't as good as they should have been, and later on I learned that Kurt Masur, the music director at the time, had worked very hard to get rid of some of them. So there was Phil, making yet another confident assertion about something he knew nothing about. Of course, he was elderly, and also enjoyed being provocative. Probably he'd been more reasonable when he was younger. Maybe certain bad habits in his thinking - and believe me, we all have them - got more pronounced with age. So I'm far from making a judgment about his entire intellectual output. I can only say that in my own
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 14 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:40:49 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:48:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Rimmer >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:25:48 -0500 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:36:19 +0100 >>>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>>But both these people are at an extreme ends of a spectrum. I >>>>would say that there are rather more people in the ambiguous >>>>middle of that spectrum (after all, we have to have a tolerance >>>>of ambiguity, don't we[,] Jerry?). >>>I'll give Rimmer credit for conjuring up a new rhetorical >>>strategy, via which any logical stretch of imagination can be >>>forgiven. I refuse, however, to indulge him in argument, because >>>I refuse to waste time bringing to earth the pelicanist in the >>>usual polemical flight of fancy - an exercise in futility if >>>ever there was one, akin to trying to argue with a >>>fundamentalist of any persuasion. Doesn't he have a wonderful way with words? >>>All John is saying is that because there are no visiting aliens, >>>all reports to the contrary - wherever or whomever they come >>>from - must be the same thing, i.e., no challenge to comfort and >>>current knowledge. It's a hermetically sealed argument from >>>which nothing novel can ever emerge. Which is, of course, the >>>point. >>Where does he get this stuff from? >Rather, the question ought to be, where does John Rimmer get >this stuff from? It begins, I think, with a desire to >domesticate the anomalous and to render it safe and >unthreatening to the sensibilities of the middle-class British >liberal-arts major. Who would that be then? The only middle-class arts major I see round here is one J. Clark. >(In one notorious instance, Magonia - that >English magazine so keenly attuned to deep currents of American >thought - transformed abducting aliens into Hispanic immigrants, >the very presence of whom has driven non- Hispanic Americans >into such fits of delirious panic that some of our citizens >hallucinate menacing space-visitor stand-ins for Mexicans. Peter has already answered this point elsewhere. As this seems to be the only thing Jerry ever references from Magonia I think it, ahem, tells us more about Jerry than it does about Magonia. (Although from one or two political blogs, I notice that the presence of Hispanic immigrants does seem to be driving at least some Americans into fits of delirious panic, whether they then go on to hallucinate menacing space-visitors is another question, but from the tone of some of the comments I've read it seems likely. That was a joke, Jerry.) >As anyone who is able to look at this without blinkers has seen >for a long time, abductions to every appearance extend themes >and images from CE3s (including the high strangeness), not from >contact claims (HS being notoriously [and tellingly] absent from >tedious contactee narratives). I presume Jerry's rule of thumb is that if a UFO narrative is 'boring' it is, ipso facto, a contactee narrative, thus proving his point. >I suppose that we'll be told next >that CE3 witnesses are actually contactees - excuse me, >"different points on the same spectrum." This is nonsense, as >Isabel Davis (whose sharp intellect and stinging wit are still >sorely missed) demonstrated memorably as long ago as 1957. It is >also the reason that phrases like "pelicanism" get coined. This is typical of Jerry's distortion of other's arguments. I have not said that contactees are abductees or that CE3 witnesses are abductees, or anything like that. What I am claiming is that there is a wide range of UFO experiences which we (ufologists in general) divide up by such terms as 'abductee'. 'contactee', 'CE3 experience', and so forth. To claim that these subjective categories are hermetically sealed from each other is quite silly. However, I am pleased to see, from some of the other responses on this List, that this dogmatic attitude is possibly not a general American viewpoint as I had originally thought, and seems to be something Jerry and a few other old-style ufologists have developed on their own. >Like other fair-minded people, I am open to new ideas. My long >career documents changes of mind, including serious ones, over >time, and they continue. I am not, however, so open-minded as to >allow brains to fall out of my head; thus, I am unsympathetic to >the belief, hardly a compellingly demonstrated one, that no >visiting aliens are or could be here; therefore, _all_ claims to >the contrary fall on a spectrum on which George Adamski occupies >a prominent place. Of course, this has nothing to do with anything I have actually said in this debate, and just gives Jerry another excuse to bang on about one of his pet themes. >Most Listfolk would agree that some people have very odd >experiences - however they may be explained when we know more >than we know now - and that other people just make up stories. >Any attempt to blur the distinction gets us precisely nowhere. >Or into the pages of Magonia, which may be the same thing. So they are the only possibilities are they? There are the goodies, who "have very odd experiences", and the baddies - the contactees - who "just make up stories". Hardly nuanced thinking, old boy! Still, such an attitude does simplify ufology considerably. >>Only by snipping most of my post can Jerry come up with this >>ludicrous response. Most 'Listfolk' are too smart to fall for >>this, and will want to refer back to my original post, where >>they will find that Jerry's polemic above bears no relation to >>its contents. >The sadly predictable squawk after the essential silliness of >the pelicanist has been demonstrated yet again. The sadly predictable non-response of the Clark after he's been asked a couple of awkward questions and can't answer them. You have again refused to answer questions about specific individuals who seem to fall into the categories of 'contactee' and 'abductee'. I notice that the contactees - sorry, people "who just make up stories" - are all safely dead and unable to reply. Perhaps you could mention one or two living contactees, perhaps even people who contribute to this list, so we could go directly to them for their viewpoint? >>By the way, thanks for the "[,]" That added comma obviously >>clarifies the parenthetical phrase for the benefit of readers >>who may not have understood its meaning otherwise. >Let's see now. It's _my_ fault that our correspondent doesn't >know how to punctuate correctly? Nice try, John. If you wish to carry on as proof-reader to the stars, feel free. I guess the rest of us will just have to put up with it. Maybe we could even put in a few deliberite speling mistakes just to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 14 Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:25:33 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:56:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder - Rimmer >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 09:33:26 +0100 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:29:06 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >>>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:01:46 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 23:44:45 +0100 >>>>Subject: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder ><snip> >>>>I'd just like to ask Mr Pope: when approached about the job did >>>>the interviewing panel say, "Mr Pope, this job involves running >>>>the Ministry's UFO Project"? If not, what exactly did they say? >>>I was headhunted, so there was no interviewing panel. From 1990 >>>I'd worked in a part of Secretariat (Air Staff) where much of my >>>job related to military aircraft accidents. In the run up to the >>>first Gulf War I'd been seconded into the Joint Operations >>>Center, working in the Air Force Operations Room as a >>>watchkeeper/briefer. My immediate boss there asked whether, >>>after the war, I wanted "Owen's job", as part of a reshuffle. I >>>knew that the job involved UFOs, but little more than that. I'd >>>been looking to move, so accepted the offer. It was as simple as >>>that. >>This seems a rather casual way of appointing people to head >>government 'projects'. I'd hardly call it 'headhunting' which >>suggests careful, even aggressive, selection from among a group >>of highly qualified individuals. >It was far from casual. At the time, the normal way of >recruiting someone was via a 30 minute selection interview >organised by the personnel department. But recruiting someone by >virtue of already having worked alongside them has distinct >advantages; you already know the candidate, you've had a chance >to develop a working relationship, and you've seen and assessed >outputs. This was how I was first approached, and indeed I've >subsequently recruited people in exactly the same way myself. Still seems pretty off-hand. Doubt if it would wash in these days of political correctness as 'equal opportunities' recruiting, but, as they say, the past is another country and they do things differently there! >>One assumes then, that at no time before your occupation of the >>desk was the job known as "The UFO Project", and that this >>concept is purely of your creation? ><snip> >In the absence of an official title (e.g. Project Blue Book) >describing the work and/or the job is a matter for the >individual concerned. One could give the name of the division >(i.e. S4, S6, DS8, Sec(AS) or DAS) but this will mean little to >anyone other than colleagues in the same area. So people have to >say something like "I work in the section that investigates UFO >sightings", or "I sit on the UFO Desk". I generally say "I ran >the UFO Project". A more detailed description of the outputs can >follow, but in the MOD you invariably need a brief way to >describe the job you do, without getting into abbreviations. Thanks for confirming that there was never any such thing as the British Government's 'UFO Project' and that this was simply a shorthand term that you invented to describe a part of the work you did. I think in the past some people may have been inadvertently (?) confused by this phrase; however it has certainly done you no harm subsequently. <snip> >>According to your accounts, your job appeared to be divided into >>two distinct parts: work related to investigating UFO reports; >>and routine work involving writing letters about low-flying >>aircraft, general enquiries and the other odd jobs that Owen >>used to do (who is this chap, incidentally, I think we need to >>know more about him!) which you apparently did in the gaps >>between UFO investigations. Even after ten years you must have >>some rough idea how much of your time was spent on the "UFO >>Project". Was it 10%? 50%? 90%? >I'd done work relating to aircraft accidents while in Sec(AS)1a. >I then transferred to Sec(AS)2a, which was responsible for >policy/investigation/research on UFOs. My other duties there >included participation in various exercises/war games designed >to test crisis management processes, and helping to vet books >written by people who'd served in the Gulf War. I never got >involved in complaints about noise from low flying aircraft. >That was Sec(AS)2b's business. Aah, 2b - or not 2b - sorry about that. >The Owen I mentioned is Owen Hartop, and the fact that he was my >immediate predecessor has been in the public domain for many >years. Did Mr Hartop ever refer to his job as being the 'UFO Project'? >Percentages? Certainly more than 50% by the time I left, but I >can't be more precise about it now, over ten years later. This is rather different from the statement you gave to Nick Redfern in a letter dated May 10 1994, written towards the end of your stint at Sec(AS)2a: "There is no specific 'UFO budget' excepting the staff costs, i.e. around 20% of my salary..." This suggests that about 80% of your time was spent on matters other than UFOs even in the period immediately before you left.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Allan From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:56:56 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 06:43:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Allan >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:27:54 -0500 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:33:51 +0100 >>Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >At one time, it was my impression that Magonia was trying to >find a third way, between literalist and dismissive approaches, >but that was quite awhile ago. These days there isn't a nickel's >worth of difference between Magonia and Skeptical Inquirer, >beyond the fact that SI has a larger circulation and more >influence. Both will publish slobbering obituaries of Phil >Klass. There is far more than a nickel's worth of difference, Jerry. Skeptical Inquirer is the official publication of an organisation, namely CSICOP. As such it has a panel of scientific consultants. It has branches in various US states and in other countries. It also has a large number of elected fellows (elected by the existing fellowship) plus a few subcommittees. It is top heavy with academics. Magonia has none of these things, and is the official publication of precisely nobody. It is simply an independent magazine. Its circulation is likely to be about one per cent of that of SI. As for Magonia publishing a 'slobbering obituary' of Phil Klass, he will probably get a brief mention, but that is all. In view of Klass being one of the founding fathers of CSICOP, SI will certainly publish a much fuller obituary. It may even be a slobbering one, depending on viewpoint. Klass once said he was known purely as a UFO skeptic, whereas other skeptics such as Donald Menzel, Carl Sagan and Patrick Moore, would be known for their contributions to science & scientific thought. Menzel made big contributions to astronomy, Sagan & Moore to popularising science through books, lectures & TV. Alas, Klass was almost a nobody, outside the narrow field of (anti-)ufology. Regarding Hilary Evans's writing in Magonia supplement 58 I found it very useful & informative, certainly a good analysis of the Hill case and a few others. Whilst slightly biased on the skeptical side it allows that the Hills did have an anomalous experience, and one whose true explanation may never be known. Hilary does end by saying that "by seeing their story alongside other stories, we can see that the dream-fantasy scenario envisaged by Dr Simon is a possible one". What could be fairer than that? Or do you consider Evans as just another pelicanist? (On another tack, I presume Stan Friedman will insist that by omitting all reference to Betty's star map Evans has ignored the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:01:55 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 06:46:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:44:19 +0100 >Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:30:22 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:23:43 -0400 UFO UpDates - Toronto >><ufoupdates.nul>writes: >>>Source: The New York Times >>>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/09/health/09alien.html >>>August 9, 2005 >>>Health >>>Books on Science >>>"Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped by >>>Aliens," >>>by Susan Clancy. Harvard University Press, $22.95. >>>Explaining Those Vivid Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>>By Benedict Carey ><snip> >>John Mack, rest his soul, was nearly on to the paradigm that >>accounts for abduction reports. Clancy is on to a career move, >>by suggesting her study (and book) is a valid academic >>enterprise. >>It isn't. Nothing psychological can be. It's smoke and mirrors >>and has been since the heyday of Freud, who was a genius, but >>not in a scientific sense. >>Clancy, like some in ufology, can be discounted, which is what >>her book will end up being, sooner than later... >But weren't you arguing just the opposite of this some months >back? Peter: I inserted the earlier material that is similar to Clancy's, because it's the antithesis to the abduction argument. I like to see both sides of an issue. In the case of psychology, with which I am somewhat familiar, it's an art, and conclusions drawn by psychologists and psychiatrists are subjective, based upon data that seems to make sense. But it's not science. The conclusions are crimped by the quirks of the interpreting psychologist, and in my experience they are a baleful lot, with more issues than their patients. As for abductions, one must concede that some are caused by sleep disorders and mental quirks - those mental quirks too suppressed and mysterious to be explained. But then there are rational beings, John Velez and Will Bueche, among others, who don't appear to have quirks and report that they were not experiencing sleep paralysis or any other kind of unconscious malady. I believe them. So, while I looked at and posted the antithetical positions by persons like Clancy, I also, in this recent post, wanted to make it clear that all events have two sides or more, and we have no idea what abductions are - they remain as much of an enigma as UFOs, and thus are open to conjecture, meaning that the psychological one should get no more credence than other
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Sandow On Klass - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:33:10 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 06:48:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Sandow On Klass - Hall >From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 01:13:44 -0400 >Subject: Sandow On Klass [was: Classy Klass] >>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:50:50 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Classy Klass >Here's the story. I interviewed him in his home in Washington >for maybe two hours, to gather material for a series of articles >I was writing about UFOs for a music magazines. This would have >been around 1995. (For those who might not know this, American >rock magazines in those days - and maybe still - regularly ran >serious articles on serious subjects other than music.) >Phil couldn't have been a more cordial host. I met his wife, met >his dog, listened to his rather labored jokes about alien bodies >in the freezer in his basement. I also listened - with very >wide, disbelieving eyes, but without making any comment - to his >assertion that the corporations he wrote about for Aviation Week >(the ones who build planes for the US armed forces) were >scrupulously honest in their dealings with the U.S. government. >I've never heard anyone say such an improbable thing with such a >straight face. Maybe he believed it. >When we talked about UFOs, we spent a long time discussing the >Chiles-Whitted sighting, one of the hoary old classics from the >1940s. (I hope I have the names right.) I'd asked him a fairly >simple question. The sighting, as many people on this List will >remember, involved two airline pilots who saw what they believed >was a craft with windows pass by their plane at night. In his >book UFOs Explained, Phil says that the pilots "unquestionably" >saw a meteor. >I asked him about "unquestionably." (Again, I hope I'm >remembering the exact word he used in his book.) I told him I >wouldn't deny that the pilots could have seen a meteor. But >since no meteor was tracked that night at that location, why did >he write that they unquestionably saw one? >He took a long time answering. Did I own a computer? he asked. I >said I did. Then what would I do if something went wrong with >it? Would I think that evil spirits were responsible, or would I >take the machine to a computer repair shop? >What he was getting at was clear enough. To believe that the >pilots had seen an alien craft was as irrational as believing >that evil spirits had messed up my computer. I asked him if >that's what he was saying. "I do not understand your question," >he replied, and asked me again what I would do to fix my >computer. >Around and around we went. He lectured me on the fallibility of >perception, with heavy stress on occasions when people reported >seeing unknown flying craft with windows, when it's known beyond >any doubt that they were seeing something more mundane, like a >satellite re-entry. I told him that I agreed with him. >Perception is fallible. I suggested - almost talking like a >lawyer - that we stipulate that this is true, that perception >can be wrong, and move on to the question I'd asked. <snip> >So there was Phil, making yet another confident assertion about >something he knew nothing about. Of course, he was elderly, and >also enjoyed being provocative. Probably he'd been more >reasonable when he was younger. Maybe certain bad habits in his >thinking - and believe me, we all have them - got more >pronounced with age. So I'm far from making a judgment about his >entire intellectual output. I can only say that in my own >dealings with him, he emerged as a stubborn but unintentionally >comical figure, who really didn't make much sense. Greg, You are too kind. I knew Klass from 1966 on when we were both young and presumably at the peak of our mental and other abilities. He was always the same. After repeated letter exchanges well into the 1970s, possibly 1980s, strongly resembling those that you (and others) desctribe I ceased all communication with him. He would twist arguments, shift the discussion, anything to avoid directly answering a critical question, while `lecturing' me about basics that I probably knew more about than he did. Constant dubious assumptions and circular reasoning, and finally when all else failed, he would make a (stupid) joke as a way to evade the issue and avopid answering the question. I concluded that he was just about the most intellectually dishonest man I had ever known. Perhaps that is too harsh and he really, really believed his utterly unfounded assumptions. He was not only dead wrong about many things, and often inconsistent between his books. Initially he told me that UFOs were either plasma balls or ET, but when Jim McDonald pointed out the absurdities in Klass' plasma arguments he (Klass) switched to hoaxes as an explanation. His vaunted investigations were shallow and exceedingly biased. Intellectually and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:37:46 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 06:49:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Clark >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 22:16:15 +0100 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:27:54 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:33:51 +0100 >>>Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:08:33 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>At one time, it was my impression that Magonia was trying to >>find a third way, between literalist and dismissive approaches, >>but that was quite awhile ago. These days there isn't a nickel's >>worth of difference between Magonia and Skeptical Inquirer, >>beyond the fact that SI has a larger circulation and more >>influence. Both will publish slobbering obituaries of Phil >>Klass. >You obviously miss the many critical comments we in Magonia have >made over the years about CSICOP. My problem with them is that >they are not sceptical enough, as witness the uncritical belief >in James Randi, and have many of the features of a quasi >religion complete with conversion narratives etc. I assume that >this just part of American religiosity, even the atheists have >to set up a church of some sort. I imagine that there will be >skeptics Sunday Schools before too long. >Magonia does indeed take a third position. Reports of anomalous >personal experiences are of interest as folklore and, at the >least, are telling us something interesting about human >perception, memory and how they human brain works. Some may be >generated by a variety of poorly understood environmental >phenomena and the interaction between these and the human brain. Peter, you're spouting silliness. Not a self-described skeptic or debunker would have a whisper of dissent from what you say above. Debunkers write whole books - even in that center of evil in the universe, the United States - arguing exactly these points to sometimes absurd lengths. Precisely as Magonia does. All in the confident faith that otherworldly intelligences couldn't _possibly_ have anything to do with anything that happens to human beings in our safe, cozily isolated material
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Sandow On Klass - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 11:09:57 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 06:51:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Sandow On Klass - Clark >From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 01:13:44 -0400 >Subject: Sandow On Klass [was: Classy Klass] >>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:50:50 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Classy Klass >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:13:07 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Classy Klass Hi, Greg, >I won't make any claims about who has the bigger chips on their >shoulders, UFO believers or UFO skeptics. But I'll retell my own >Phil Klass stories, which certainly show that, at least when I >talked with him and exchanged letters, he wasn't thinking very >clearly. And he was making absurd assumptions in order to >support his arguments, in some cases about subjects he didn't >know anything about. Thanks for an as always interesting post. I know you have more Klass stories, such as those you've shared with me, but I understand your restraint under the circumstances. My overall impression of Klass, whom I came to know fairly well after years of interaction, was of a child, and not a charming one. This, by the way, is a view held among the CSICOP hierarchy, according to my good friend Gordon Stein, now sadly deceased, who worked for CSICOP head Paul Kurtz. For the amusing specifics of Klassian excess when challenged, look up Dennis Rawlins's "Starbaby". It's on the Internet somewhere. Rawlins, a hard- core skeptic if ever there was one, came to the conclusion that Klass was not only dishonest but rather nutty as well. As I've already mentioned, CSICOP co- founder Marcello Truzzi, when he got to know Klass, considered him a disgrace and said as much to anyone who'd listen. If Klass had been pro-UFO (God forbid), none of the above would be up for dispute. Being a famous heresy-hunter, though, means you get a free ride. As we all know, heresies and heretics deserve whatever is coming to them, and we don't need to be too picky about the methods, do we? Klass was astonishingly emotionally immature for a man of his years. Besides his notorious debunking fanaticism and willingness to embrace illogic and pseudoscience when they suited whatever his purpose of the moment was, he harbored personal attitudes (such as - as you well know - toward women) that never failed to shock. Ironically and astutely, a well- regarded member of this List privately writes to tell me that in his estimation Klass - whose politics, in fact, did lean far to the right - was the "Ann Coulter of ufology." I find the clucking commentary - from those who didn't know, or barely knew, Klass - about how we forever clueless American provincials failed to appreciate his "sense of humor" (huh?) pretty hilarious, certainly funnier than anything I can ever recall Klass's uttering or writing. On the other hand, I've often thought that Klass was one of those people - Margaret
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:59:20 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 07:07:45 -0400 Subject: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? I thought List readers might be interested in my musings on this theme from my "blog": http://theozfiles.blogspot.com Hearing that Susan Clancy of Harvard has a book - Abducted: How People Come To Believe They Were Kidnapped By Aliens - coming out from Harvard University Press due on October 1st, I immediately had floating into my mind "in my wild erratic fancy, visions come to me of Clancy". With sincere apologises to our wonderful iconic Australian bush poet, 'Banjo' Paterson, for my abduction of fragments from his 1889 poem, Clancy Of The Overflow, but they seem wonderfully insightful in a skewed kind of way: "for want of better knowledge" "And an answer came directed in a writing unexpected" "I can hear the fiendish rattle" "And the language uninviting" "Comes fitfully and faintly" "And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt me As they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste, With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, For townsfolk have no time to grow; they have no time to waste." I look forward to reading Susan Clancy's offering, and I hope it is more substantial than work that seems to be driving it. In Hair Of The Alien (pages 20-21) I wrote: "During 2002 and 2003 research conducted at Harvard University reignited the idea of psychological mechanisms as a possible explanation of alien abduction reports. The key players in the debate were psychologists Susan Clancy and Richard McNally. "False memory creation was examined in people who reported having recovered memories of traumatic events that are unlikely to have occurred: abduction by space aliens," states the abstract of their paper, which was published in the Journal of Abnormal Psychology. The researchers examined false recall and false recognition in three groups: "people reporting recovered memories of alien abduction, people who believe they were abducted by aliens but have no memories, and people who deny having been abducted by aliens." They concluded: "Those reporting recovered and repressed memories of alien abduction were more prone than control participants to exhibit false recall and recognition. The groups did not differ in correct recall or recognition. Hypnotic suggestibility, depressive symptoms, and schizotypic features were significant predictors of false recall and false recognition." This research is interesting but has some severe limitations. The sample sizes used in each group were very small - 11, 9, and 13 respectively. Even more critically, the profile of the "recovered memory" group is flawed. The paper states, "None of the participants interviewed reported continuous memories of alien abduction (i.e., memories of alien abduction that were never forgotten) .... Memories were recovered both in therapy with the help of certain therapeutic techniques (e.g., hypnosis) and spontaneously, after reading books, watching movies, or seeing television shows depicting such episodes." In fact, there are a significant number of people reporting abductions who do not rely on hypnosis and other therapeutic techniques. Their memories are based on clearly recollected incidents for which they have no memory loss or delayed recalled." I concluded: "we must exercise caution against either the simplistic acceptance of alien causation or skeptical dismissal. Such uncertainties make it all the more important to concentrate on a broad forensic approach to abduction experiences, but physical evidence, whereever possible, needs to be at the heart of these investigations." - "Hair of the Alien" (page 21) The Peter Khoury alien abduction milieu, which is presented as a detailed case study in my book "HAIR of the ALIEN", represents a potent example of what the Clancy/McNally research fails to address - abduction cases that are clearly and consciously recollected, with compelling physical evidence that appears to support their legitimacy. Susan Clancy's forthcoming book on initial impressions seems to represent an "overflow" of flawed and limited research, albeit interesting, and perhaps spawned from Harvard's attempts to exorcise the UFO and alien demons, unleashed by the late John Mack (another Harvard icon) in his research into alien abductions. Harvard sought to censure John Mack, but instead seem to invoke misguided and failed attempts at martyrdom. Richard McNally sought to anchor a "mainstream" psychological response with his "bedrock" book "Remembering Trauma". Perhaps Susan Clancy is channelling "overflow", or maybe her book will be more substantial than "language uninviting (that) ... comes fitfully and faintly," and more robust than mere "foetid (hot) air" from some imagined "vision spendid." There are suggestions that Susan Clancy's book hints "at a larger ambition, to explain the psychology of transformative experiences, whether supposed abductions, conversions or divine visitations." (Benedict Carey, New York Times, August 9, 2005) She will be walking in a rather large shadow if she embarks into that territory. John Mack was a potent and articulate spokesman for some of the wider dimensions of human experience. With his 1994 book "Abduction - Human Encounters with Aliens", and more particularly his 1999 book "Passport to the Cosmos - Human Transformation and Alien Encounters", he signalled and mapped out his perspectives. In essence "Passport" represented a shamanic envisioning of the whole alien abduction mystery. The transformative aspects of the phenomenon held sway for John Mack, and examination of the physical dimensions seemed secondary or even unimportant. The kind of information I have focused on such as DNA, albeit not without ignoring the shamanic aspects, perhaps conflicted with the numinous dimensions of the hyper reality John Mack speculated may be at the heart of the abduction phenomenon. It seems that in alien abductions John Mack saw affirmations of important concerns and perspectives he had held for some time, and they sat well with the transpersonal and environmental issues he championed for some time, certainly long before the alien sirens beckoned him into their seductive embrace. To do that requires one to disconnect from the classic physical dimensions of the abduction phenomenon, all of which seem to argue that at least part of the experience occurs in the real world and real world consequences occur. Physical evidence, both explicit and hidden, is becoming available. What has not been so much in evidence are appropriate methodologies to capture and assess this range of evidence. So far the record has been uninspiring, but a new paradigm is emerging, one that has been well represented in terms of potential and actual results by one small part of that paradigm, namely DNA. Other parts of that new paradigm have their anchor in science and its broad base of approaches to understanding the world around us, even when it is being intruded upon, perhaps by something out there. Thats the primary focus of my offering - "Hair of the Alien" - a journey
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder - Pope From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:06:26 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 07:09:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder - Pope >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:25:33 +0100 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 09:33:26 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 21:29:06 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >>>One assumes then, that at no time before your occupation of the >>>desk was the job known as "The UFO Project", and that this >>>concept is purely of your creation? >>In the absence of an official title (e.g. Project Blue Book) >>describing the work and/or the job is a matter for the >>individual concerned. One could give the name of the division >>(i.e. S4, S6, DS8, Sec(AS) or DAS) but this will mean little to >>anyone other than colleagues in the same area. So people have to >>say something like "I work in the section that investigates UFO >>sightings", or "I sit on the UFO Desk". I generally say "I ran >>the UFO Project". A more detailed description of the outputs can >>follow, but in the MOD you invariably need a brief way to >>describe the job you do, without getting into abbreviations. >Thanks for confirming that there was never any such thing as >the British Government's 'UFO Project'. I confirmed no such thing. If you re-read the above answer you'll see that what I actually said was there was no formal title, along the lines of Project Blue Book, and that the matter of what to call the MOD's UFO investigations is therefore a matter of personal preference. The MOD has been researching and investigating UFO sightings since the Fifties, as anybody who has studied the declassified files at the National Archives can tell you. For me, using the word "project" to describe this work seems appropriate. But if you want to use another term, John, then that's entirely your business.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Rare UFO Footage From: Martin Beattie <martyb2k.nul> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:42:07 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 07:18:36 -0400 Subject: Rare UFO Footage Hello all, I'm new here and have decided to post some rare, and mostly mysterious videoclips, some you might not have seen before. The clips range from what I consider to be 'hard evidence' E.T is visiting, unknowns, and possible hoax footage..... The first 2: http://tinyurl.com/bv2sa The Lowestoft UFO remains one of the best clips ever IMO. (Hard Evidence) The recent China UFO is a lengthy clip (35MEG) but is very impressive. Number 3: http://tinyurl.com/bnq4z
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:25:37 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 07:20:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Clark >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:40:49 +0100 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:25:48 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:36:19 +0100 >>>>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 John and patient and gentle Listfolk: >>Rather, the question ought to be, where does John Rimmer get >>this stuff from? It begins, I think, with a desire to >>domesticate the anomalous and to render it safe and >>unthreatening to the sensibilities of the middle-class British >>liberal-arts major. >Who would that be then? The only middle-class arts major I see >round here is one J. Clark. Sorry to disappoint you, John, but J. Clark doesn't have a middle-class income. (I hope that you do, by the way, and also hope that the employment problems you mentioned awhile back have been happily resolved.) J. Clark is living proof that there's no money to be made in UFOs. Unfortunately. Also, by the way, I didn't say "arts major" (which, J. Rimmer's characteristically confident but bogus assertion notwithstanding, I wasn't); I said "liberal-arts major," a broader category which includes, not incidentally, librarians. >Peter has already answered this point elsewhere. See my rejoinder to Peter elsewhere. >As this seems >to be the only thing Jerry ever references from Magonia I think >it, ahem, tells us more about Jerry than it does about Magonia. I confess I _love_ that quote. So typically Magonian, and in only one pithy paragraph, too. Aside from that: Actually, no. Based on the number of printed references to me in Magonia, as opposed to my printed references to Magonia and Magonians, I think it is fair to say that your crowd is obsessed with me. To my recollection, I have written and published twice about you guys, once without mentioning any of you by name. You can't pick up an issue of Magonia, however, without finding an unflattering reference or two or three (on at least one occasion a full article) to that focus of all evil in ufology, J. Clark. I can only conclude that while such attention is in some sense flattering, you guys must not have a lot else to do with your time. When not entertaining myself with amusing Updates exchanges, I confess that I give Magonia virtually no thought, except - of course - when a new issue shows up in my mail (for which I thank you, and I mean that sincerely; in appreciation, I've had a copy of my new book sent your way). >(Although from one or two political blogs, I notice that the >presence of Hispanic immigrants does seem to be driving at least >some Americans into fits of delirious panic, whether they then >go on to hallucinate menacing space-visitors is another >question, but from the tone of some of the comments I've read it >seems likely. That was a joke, Jerry.) Only in retrospect, I suspect, when I pointed out the hilarity, which I doubt - self-serving rationalizations aside - was actually intentional the first time around. With Magonia, admittedly, it's not always possible to discern what is meant to be satirical and what is meant to be taken seriously. In any event, anti-immigrant sentiment, however lamentable, is hardly confined to America, as of all people an English citizen ought to know. But of course with you guys it's _so_ much more fun to point fingers at the colonials. >>As anyone who is able to look at this without blinkers has seen >>for a long time, abductions to every appearance extend themes >>and images from CE3s (including the high strangeness), not from >>contact claims (HS being notoriously [and tellingly] absent from >>tedious contactee narratives). >I presume Jerry's rule of thumb is that if a UFO narrative is >'boring' it is, ipso facto, a contactee narrative, thus proving >his point. This is too feeble a wheeze to merit a rejoinder. More sophisticated readers than John will have caught my point. >>I suppose that we'll be told next >>that CE3 witnesses are actually contactees - excuse me, >>"different points on the same spectrum." This is nonsense, as >>Isabel Davis (whose sharp intellect and stinging wit are still >>sorely missed) demonstrated memorably as long ago as 1957. It is >>also the reason that phrases like "pelicanism" get coined. >This is typical of Jerry's distortion of other's arguments. I >have not said that contactees are abductees or that CE3 >witnesses are abductees, or anything like that. What I am >claiming is that there is a wide range of UFO experiences which >we (ufologists in general) divide up by such terms as >'abductee'. 'contactee', 'CE3 experience', and so forth. To >claim that these subjective categories are hermetically sealed >from each other is quite silly. John reiterates the very point I was criticizing - that _all_ UFO experiences are at their core fundamentally the same, though on a continuum or spectrum with only superficially different manifestations - all the while claiming that I grossly distorted the point, which most experienced observers would find pretty unconvincing. One only wishes Isabel Davis, who did not suffer fools gladly, were alive to make her uniquely delightful short work of such gaseous emission. I am clipping the rest, there being nothing worth testing List patience. I suppose, though, I could note that as far as I can tell, all we're left with is John's wings flapping over the crucial issue of whether I'm criticizing dead or living contactees, coupled with the bizarre implication that I fear the latter and am barricading my doors at night lest I offend any, forcing them and the Ashtar Command to swoop into my bedroom one night and whisk me away. Or, more prosaically, that I fear losing my fortune in court by announcing that I don't believe somebody actually flew to Venus with Space Brothers. I actually _like_ contactees, by the way, and have no doubt that I have known more of them personally than John has or ever will. I've always regretted that I was too young to meet Adamski, who I am sure was personally more engaging than his tedious writings were. Even more, I wish I had met George Hunt Williamson who - if no more believable than Adamski - at least never wrote anything remotely tedious. To conclude the story, however: I take it that John thinks he has leveled some devastating accusation, and if that thought gives him satisfaction - an emotion all too rarely experienced in this age of uncertainty and frustration - who am I to deny it to him?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:43:19 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 07:24:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Lehmberg >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:40:49 +0100 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:25:48 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:36:19 +0100 >>>>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>>>But both these people are at an extreme ends of a spectrum. I >>>>>would say that there are rather more people in the ambiguous >>>>>middle of that spectrum (after all, we have to have a tolerance >>>>>of ambiguity, don't we[,] Jerry?). >>>>I'll give Rimmer credit for conjuring up a new rhetorical >>>>strategy, via which any logical stretch of imagination can be >>>>forgiven. I refuse, however, to indulge him in argument, because >>>>I refuse to waste time bringing to earth the pelicanist in the >>>>usual polemical flight of fancy - an exercise in futility if >>>>ever there was one, akin to trying to argue with a >>>>fundamentalist of any persuasion. >Doesn't he have a wonderful way with words? Quite. He's "Chevy Chase" and you're not... but that's not really the issue is it? He writes from sincerity and conviction while you write like a smirking carnival barker just trying to get the rubes you don't respect into your psychosocial tent. But maybe that's just me. >>>>All John is saying is that because there are no visiting aliens, >>>>all reports to the contrary - wherever or whomever they come >>>>from - must be the same thing, i.e., no challenge to comfort and >>>>current knowledge. It's a hermetically sealed argument from >>>>which nothing novel can ever emerge. Which is, of course, the >>>>point. > >>>Where does he get this stuff from? >>Rather, the question ought to be, where does John Rimmer get >>this stuff from? It begins, I think, with a desire to >>domesticate the anomalous and to render it safe and >>unthreatening to the sensibilities of the middle-class British >>liberal-arts major. >Who would that be then? The only middle-class arts major I see >round here is one J. Clark. That's not issue either, Sir. Mr. Clark very obviously alluded to a possible justification for your... jeez, how can I put this gently... dervish-like literary activity as a mechanism for the spoonfeeding of that resisting an explanation... to moderately educated fencesitters who would just as soon get closer to truth than the decidedly homocentric paradigm you obstinately peddle? Is that fair? >>(In one notorious instance, Magonia - that >>English magazine so keenly attuned to deep currents of American >>thought - transformed abducting aliens into Hispanic immigrants, >>the very presence of whom has driven non- Hispanic Americans >>into such fits of delirious panic that some of our citizens >>hallucinate menacing space-visitor stand-ins for Mexicans. >Peter has already answered this point elsewhere. As this seems >to be the only thing Jerry ever references from Magonia I think >it, ahem, tells us more about Jerry than it does about Magonia. >(Although from one or two political blogs, I notice that the >presence of Hispanic immigrants does seem to be driving at least >some Americans into fits of delirious panic, whether they then >go on to hallucinate menacing space-visitors is another >question, but from the tone of some of the comments I've read it >seems likely. That was a joke, Jerry.) Ah - that dry British humor. Sometimes it is such and enough to pucker a lemon, actually, and largely lost on many of us here in the colonies. You must try to forgive us our provinciality and lack of sophistication. >>As anyone who is able to look at this without blinkers has seen >>for a long time, abductions to every appearance extend themes >>and images from CE3s (including the high strangeness), not from >>contact claims (HS being notoriously [and tellingly] absent from >>tedious contactee narratives). >I presume Jerry's rule of thumb is that if a UFO narrative is >'boring' it is, ipso facto, a contactee narrative, thus proving >his point. Forgetting that contactee narratives are harder to believe perhaps because we humans find it difficult to consider in aliens what we see so little of in ourselves (rapacious abductee style aliens seem more familiar and even acceptable to us because that is what we ourselves have so furiously prosecuted culturally lo these many years; in other words... its what _we_ do)... your only competent 'sounding' retort here is but verbal slight of hand to counter your hull breeched astonishment that he has hit it (and you?) so triumphantly on the nose? >>I suppose that we'll be told next >>that CE3 witnesses are actually contactees - excuse me, >>"different points on the same spectrum." This is nonsense, as >>Isabel Davis (whose sharp intellect and stinging wit are still >>sorely missed) demonstrated memorably as long ago as 1957. It is >>also the reason that phrases like "pelicanism" get coined. >This is typical of Jerry's distortion of other's arguments. While, this immediately preceding is so typical of your pretensions that many in the readership won't appreciate that you yourself have a way with the verbal smoke and mirrors. Clark would seem to use these talent's more to discuss and inform... whereas it might be said that you use same to prosecute and spin. >I have not said that contactees are abductees or that CE3 >witnesses are abductees, or anything like that. What I am >claiming is that there is a wide range of UFO experiences which >we (ufologists in general) divide up by such terms as >'abductee'. 'contactee', 'CE3 experience', and so forth. To >claim that these subjective categories are hermetically sealed >from each other is quite silly. Your intimation, here, that Mr. Clark's dog won't hunt in this matter does not belie the evidence that not only does his dog hunt very well indeed, but that it also _feeds_ exceptionally well... and then deposits something on your barren ufological front lawn that said lawn, very obviously, could use. Drake says they 'are'. Fermi says they 'will'. Evidentiary Ufology says they 'have'. Any rational person with an ounce of humility and a soupcon of bravery would just buy in for a serious investigation... but for persons like yourself and the memory of the... dear departed... PJK. >>However, I am pleased to see, from some of the other responses >on this List, that this dogmatic attitude is possibly not a >general American viewpoint as I had originally thought, and >seems to be something Jerry and a few other old-style ufologists >have developed on their own. Wow! Reader! Can't you just smell the veiled charge in there? That, comparatively, an "old guard" decidedly progressive, forward looking, and appropriately humble in that regard needs to step out of the way for a "new guard" as mired in shortsighted homocentricity as they locked into foundationless dogmas of their own? If that was a joke, Mr. Rimmer... well, _I_ certainly laughed out loud. >>Like other fair-minded people, I am open to new ideas. My long >>career documents changes of mind, including serious ones, over >>time, and they continue. I am not, however, so open-minded as to >>allow brains to fall out of my head; thus, I am unsympathetic to >>the belief, hardly a compellingly demonstrated one, that no >>visiting aliens are or could be here; therefore, _all_ claims to >>the contrary fall on a spectrum on which George Adamski occupies >>a prominent place. >Of course, this has nothing to do with anything I have actually >said in this debate, and just gives Jerry another excuse to bang >on about one of his pet themes. Nonsense, Sir. You only take the opportunity to bang on your dodgier antithesis, besides being offensively obtuse. That's the _whole_ debate, actually, and you, yourself, only prosecute a tributary of it here. You are of a mind, admittedly broadbrushing, that aliens cannot exist, so you look for them in the minds and mores of that only intelligence you think (prefer to believe, that is) you have evidence for, your own... have you ever gone outside at night and just looked into a clear starry starry sky? I think not. >>Most Listfolk would agree that some people have very odd >>experiences - however they may be explained when we know more >>than we know now - and that other people just make up stories. >>Any attempt to blur the distinction gets us precisely nowhere. >>Or into the pages of Magonia, which may be the same thing. >So they are the only possibilities are they? There are the >goodies, who "have very odd experiences", and the baddies - the >contactees - who "just make up stories". Hardly nuanced >thinking, old boy! Still, such an attitude does simplify ufology >considerably. Again, this debate is not required to conform to a manner that you would, very disingenuously, frame, imo. In the research, as I understand it, "four guys named George" do not bear themselves out in the balanced investigations they beg with their activities (forgetting the possible grain of truth at the centers of their stories fueling them to begin with)... while many of the abductees _do_ prove out to a greater degree. Additionally, your smirky charge that Mr. Clark would oversimplify is laughable when it is your crowd guiltier of the much greater oversimplification. ET does not exist and if you think so you are mentally ill, deliberately misleading or decidedly mislead. That's so 'simple' it is astonishing. >>>Only by snipping most of my post can Jerry come up with this >>>ludicrous response. Most 'Listfolk' are too smart to fall for >>>this, and will want to refer back to my original post, where >>>they will find that Jerry's polemic above bears no relation to >>>its contents. I didn't snip a thing and found you _abundantly_ ludicrous, Sir. I suspect Mr. Clark wanted to avoid the slap and tickle, save time, and just cut to the chase. >>The sadly predictable squawk after the essential silliness of >>the pelicanist has been demonstrated yet again. >The sadly predictable non-response of the Clark after he's been >asked a couple of awkward questions and can't answer them. Monkey paffle. Mr. Clark singularly responsive. Perhaps you confuse "awkward" with "insentient"? >You have again refused to answer questions about specific >individuals who seem to fall into the categories of 'contactee' >and 'abductee'. I notice that the contactees - sorry, people >"who just make up stories" - are all safely dead and unable to >reply. Perhaps you could mention one or two living contactees, >perhaps even people who contribute to this list, so we could go >directly to them for their viewpoint? Why would we want to do that, argue specifics about embarrassed individuals when you have shown no ability to deal with the larger questions regarding the potentiality in space of intelligences not your own. There are plenty of persons on this List from both camps, I suspect, who are loath to discuss twitchy details of their personal lives and expose their sensibilities to the mouth puckering lemony ridicule of eternally glib persons who already have their minds made up, anyway. Present company excluded, of course, Mr. Rimmer. >>>By the way, thanks for the "[,]" That added comma obviously >>>clarifies the parenthetical phrase for the benefit of readers >>>who may not have understood its meaning otherwise. >>Let's see now. It's _my_ fault that our correspondent doesn't >>know how to punctuate correctly? Nice try, John. >If you wish to carry on as proof-reader to the stars, feel free. >I guess the rest of us will just have to put up with it. Maybe >we could even put in a few deliberite speling mistakes just to >keep you bizzy! Wow! All the way to the end of this and an "across the pond" substantiation or the remotest idle substantive was nowhere in evidence, with smirky sneer-snickers at the period. This, plainly, was an obligatory response in a failed attempt to keep the ball in play for the fencesitting reader... even as the ball remains dead on your side of the net, Sir. Advantage Clark.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 The Pelican Writes From: John Harney <magonia.nul> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:18:55 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 07:26:13 -0400 Subject: The Pelican Writes Some List members might like to know that the series of sceptical commentaries from the quarterly magazine Magonia titled The Pelican Writes, of which Nos. 1-14 appear on the main Magonia web site, is now continued on the Magonia Extra web site, because it is at present not possible to update the Magonia web site. Those wishing to read from No. 15 onwards will find them at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Sandow On Klass - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:30:06 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 08:38:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Sandow On Klass - Sparks >From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 01:13:44 -0400 >Subject: Sandow On Klass [was: Classy Klass] >>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:50:50 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Classy Klass >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:13:07 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Classy Klass >>>Yes, Phil Klass had a great sense of humour. What a shame that >>>some of the people who have posted rather mean-minded comments >>>on this List could not appreciate it. Maybe his rather acerbic >>>irony went down better in Britain than in America. >>I don't think it is a trans-Atlantic cultural bias so much as >>many folks in the "UFO community" having great big chips on >>their shoulders, chips that Phil was frequently swinging at. >I won't make any claims about who has the bigger chips on their >shoulders, UFO believers or UFO skeptics. Well this sort of suggests a mirror symmetry in the burden of proof between "UFO believers" and "UFO skeptics" when in fact there is not. Phil Klass felt pretty frustrated over the inconsistency and even hypocrisy of the pro-UFO world that would not follow its own rules, which, as enunciated by Hynek and others, called for the UFO investigator or researcher to eliminate IFO or conventional explanations first before accepting a case as a UFO. Phil rightly understood that skeptics have greater freedom to criticize a UFO case or position than "UFO believers" have in propounding it. But he had a real problem in drawing the line on how far he could go legitimately - hence the many ad hominem arguments to try to undermine or ruin a case. And he had a poor grasp of the limits set by logic and science - a skeptical argument or explanation cannot violate the laws of physics. I got the feeling he and other skeptics and debunkers had the incipient notion that if UFO's were allowed to defy the laws of physics then somehow by some mirror equivalence they were entitled to do so too, violate the laws of physics and logic, in their attempted explanations. This notion seems to lurk behind the Klassian challenge (to make up a hypothetical similar to your Klass story about the broken computer and evil spirits) that of whether one should believe "a ghost held the pencil up on its sharp point for 3 days straight or whether it was just an unusual set of natural phenomena combined with misperceptions and errors." >But I'll retell my own >Phil Klass stories, which certainly show that, at least when I >talked with him and exchanged letters, he wasn't thinking very >clearly. And he was making absurd assumptions in order to >support his arguments, in some cases about subjects he didn't >know anything about. As I posted yesterday Klass had mapped out the route of the RB-47 but had the subsonic jet traveling supersonic to get it across the territory he needed it to cover for his intricate series of explanations (in fact he had it traveling up to Mach 1.3). A clear violation of the laws of physics. But to be fair so did McDonald and others who followed his (McDonald's) equally erroneous map requiring an impossible supersonic RB-47, which in turn was based on the pilot's sketch that was never intended to be used for scientifically accurate navigational plotting and should have been corrected first. <snip> >When we talked about UFOs, we spent a long time discussing the >Chiles-Whitted sighting, one of the hoary old classics from the >1940s. (I hope I have the names right.) I'd asked him a fairly >simple question. The sighting, as many people on this List will >remember, involved two airline pilots who saw what they believed >was a craft with windows pass by their plane at night. In his >book UFOs Explained, Phil says that the pilots "unquestionably" >saw a meteor. >I asked him about "unquestionably." (Again, I hope I'm >remembering the exact word he used in his book.) I told him I >wouldn't deny that the pilots could have seen a meteor. But >since no meteor was tracked that night at that location, why did >he write that they unquestionably saw one? There were sightings of the Chiles-Whitted meteor-like object from Georgia to Virginia. As I've posted here before there is really nothing to distinguish the 5-10-second Chiles-Whitted sighting from that of a fireball meteor with broken luminous pieces giving the appearance of "windows" against the darker less luminous incandescent gases, something that has been seen on other occasions as Klass liked to point out with the March 3, 1968, meteor or satellite re-entry. On Hynek's Strangeness Scale we would say Chiles-Whitted has Zero (or near zero) Strangeness. Or else we would say that a proper Hynek Screening for IFO's has not been carried out and when we do it is eliminated or left in an indeterminate category of dubious value. >Around and around we went. He lectured me on the fallibility of >perception, with heavy stress on occasions when people reported >seeing unknown flying craft with windows, when it's known beyond >any doubt that they were seeing something more mundane, like a >satellite re-entry. I told him that I agreed with him. >Perception is fallible. I suggested - almost talking like a >lawyer - that we stipulate that this is true, that perception >can be wrong, and move on to the question I'd asked. >But still he persisted in his lectures. Please note, skeptics on >the List, and others who might want to defend Phil on this point >- I was _agreeing_ with him. And still he wouldn't stop >lecturing me. Of course, I can be pretty stubborn myself, and I >kept returning to my question. Of course perception is fallible, >I said. Of course the pilots might have been mistaken. Of course >they could have seen a meteor, and imagined that it was a craft >with windows. But how do we _know_ they saw a meteor? How >could Phil write that this was _unquestionably_ true? If a pilot says he saw "windows" on a "ship" for a few seconds does that mean that is exactly what happened? Do we not get to question the short duration and sighting circumstances to figure out whether this is reasonable and reliable observational data? There is a fundamental philosophical issue involved here, one of distinguishing interpretation from observation. The naive literalist asserts that whatever a witness says happened must be taken as the gospel truth, every last word of it without any analysis or investigation of any kind (the very idea of "investigating" a witness suggests to many literalists that it means calling the witness a "liar" and nothing else). Quotation and misquotation then become vital battle grounds for this school of thought. Ad hominem attacks and defenses become the crucial determining issue because if whatever a witness says is the "truth" automatically, without investigation and analysis, then the witness' credibility and background become all- important. This actually reflects to a surprising degree Klass' simple journalist mindset, which views news as whatever _newsmakers_ say it is, regardless how erroneous it might be. This explains a lot of Klass' behavior, not just the naive literalist UFO activist's. For Klass the ultimate discrediting of a UFO case was when he could get a witness to "recant." Because, you see, "truth" was to be determined by what witnesses say it is, not by careful investigation and analysis of what they say and other evidence that may be available. But whenever it was convenient Klass would violate the precepts of the naive literalist and would investigate and analyze the witness' statements if he could thereby find a way to _undermine_ a UFO case. He would try to get at the underlying "truth" of the observation that may have been misinterpreted as to its meaning and significance by the witness (or by biased or inept investigators) but was otherwise accurately observed. This investigative approach is actually the intelligent and truly scientific way to deal with the matter instead of the naive literalist philosophy. When one applies this to IFO witness data in the Condon Report as I did, for example, one finds that witnesses were 97%-98% accurate in their _observations_, as distinct from their often mistaken _interpretations_. See my postings at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/apr/m11-030.shtml http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/apr/m13-017.shtml http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/may/m24-007.shtml But Klass would not apply this investigative strategy in order to _support_ a UFO case, only to discredit it, which immediately aroused a sense of unfairness and injustice in the UFO advocates who would howl in protest at such one-sided bias. A scientific approach is evenhanded and would objectively investigate and analyze all of a case not just the parts calculated to support or refute a case. This is where Klass took the partisan Devil's advocate role and challenged the "other side" to muster up its best. He would forget in those all too frequent instances that at other times he claimed to be taking a "scientific" posture not a partisan advocacy stance (like the "SI" for "Scientific Investigation" in his CSICOP, and its UFO Subcommittee he headed for many years) So, to get back to the Chiles-Whitted case, when a pilot says he saw "windows" in a "ship" I analyze the sighting circumstances to extract the actual observational details..The "windows" along the rocket-like long body could not have been seen when the object was coming headon, therefore the "windows" could only have been seen for a fraction of a second or a second or two when the object was closest and also traveling at its fastest in apparent speed (highest angular velocity) making observation the most difficult at that part of the trajectory - it was also at the most traumatic moment when the pilots were worried about possible impending collision and thus unlikely to be paying attention to non-essential details. So I take the "windows" as merely an interpretation of actually seeing oblong blobs of light against a darker background which suggested an outline of a ship but which could hardly have been seen or carefully observed in such a brief high-velocity encounter, and were entirely consistent with the "airship effect" of meteors and later, satellite reentries. See my detailed analysis at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/sep/m20-012.shtml Now when a Clyde Tombaugh says he saw three rectangular lights in formation as if part of a body fly overhead for 3 seconds while he and two others were observing the sky, and he gives other technical details then this is different from Chiles and Whitted. Tombaugh was the professional astronomer who discovered the planet Pluto, who was an experienced amateur astronomer familiar with the night sky from years of skywatching and was not just an observatory-bound photographic-plate type scientist. He was also in charge of the White Sands Proving Ground optical tracking and instrumentation network and thus had experience with calibrating his visual observations of missiles and aircraft close up and at great distances. Thus I take Tombaugh's observations far and away above those of any airline pilot no matter how many thousands of hours of flight time he might have racked up especially when the pilots did not demonstrate any careful scientific accuracy in their very sketchy sighting details (even the total duration is ambiguous as to whether it was 5 seconds or 10 seconds, and no one bothered to pin down this crucial detail). >So finally he answered me. We were using fairly stilted language >at this point, something I believe I initiated, because I wanted >to keep my account of the sighting absolutely neutral. So I was >referring to the pilots' belief, not that they saw an alien >spaceship (since as far as I know they never said any such >thing), but that they had seen an "anomalous structured craft." >Or something like that. Phil's answer went something like this: >"Since I believe there are no anomalous structured craft flying >in our atmosphere, the pilots could not have seen any such >thing." And there you have it. Circular reasoning, as classic an >example as you'll ever find.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Classy Klass - Johnson From: Don Johnson <donjohnson.nul> Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 08:41:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Classy Klass - Johnson >From: Terry Blanton <commengr.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:02:17 -0400 >Subject: Classy Klass >ebk, >I swore I'd never show this while Phil as alive. It was taken in >Britain at the height of the Alien Autopsy controversy. Phil had >a great sense of humor. >I thought you might wish to share it with the Listers. >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/ufoupdates/listers/terry/klasstopsy.html Dear Terry Blanton, George Bernard Shaw once said that the best revenge is outliving all your enemies. I once told Phil Klass, in Pensacola, that one of my fondest hopes for the future was the knowledge that I would outlive him, and so someday would be able to write the last word on the UFO phenomenon. I never liked the man. He was officious, arrogant, and needlessly pushy. He frequently engaged in character assasinations and other falacious techniques of rhetoric in his attempts to win debates. Perhaps he would have made a good trial lawyer, but there was nothing scientific about him. He was one of the world's worst bigots when it came to dealing with UFO experiencers. I once spent 45 minutes with him debating the 1973 Coyne helicopter case merits. After that episode, when I avoided several rhetorical traps he attempted to set for me to make me look foolish and trip me up involving the ability of pilots to estimate time and distances, I swore I would never waste my time like that again. There is nothing to be gained by debating with a religious zealot. That is what he was. He attacked the UFO problem with a religious fervor. It somehow offended his worldview that anyone should take the problem seriously. He went after my mentor, Dr. David Saunders, and likewise Dr. James McDonald, like a rabid dog, and for that I will never forgive him. Compared to their giant stature as true men of science, he was a midget! I think Col. Coyne summed it up best. In a conversation with Jenny Zeidman, Ms. Zeidman brought up Klass's latest comments about his UFO encounter. Coyne started to say, "Phil Klass is full of...", then catching himself because a lady was present, added after a poignant pause, "...it".
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 British MoD 'Open-Minded' On Alien Encounters From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 08:48:28 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 08:48:28 -0400 Subject: British MoD 'Open-Minded' On Alien Encounters Source: The Scotsman - Edinborough, Scotland http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1781642005 Mon 15 Aug 2005 MoD 'Open-Minded' On Alien Encounters Craig Brown Alien abduction protocols, curried kidney recipes and Navy-issue watches are among the topics of inquiries received by the Ministry of Defence since the Freedom of Information Act came into force at the beginning of the year. Averaging 300 requests a month, the department has had to respond to some bizarre and tricky questions, including from conspiracy theorists about the MoD's contact with alien life. While one wanted access to any physical proof held by the MoD of aliens, another asked simply: "Please could you send me a copy of the MoD's policy on alien abduction?" However, the MoD, despite being as helpful as it could, denied that it had a policy on aliens - or pictures of them. "The Ministry of Defence does not have any expertise or role in respect of 'UFO/ flying saucer' matters or to the question of the existence or otherwise of extraterrestrial life forms, about which it remains totally open-minded," said its published reply. But UFO investigator and writer Ron Halliday said that MoD was clearly aware of the existence of alien life. "I think they're being very mealy-mouthed about this," he said. "Back in the 1990s, they revealed that they had been recording UFO sightings since the Forties, and handed the dossier over to UFO experts to investigate."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Contactee Taboo - Sheryl From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:40:51 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:11:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Sheryl >From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:41:48 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 01:31:21 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:31:09 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >><snip> >>If I exhibit any sensitivity about the subject... I come by it >>honestly. >What gets me, John... >Is that and honest and upright guy like you has an experience, >and relates that experience, as best you can, and still some >would set it aside as something other than what it was. >Your intelligence and observational proclivities should force us >all to take a serious look at what happend to you (and others). >But, no, we keep going back to Adamski and the 50's boys when we >have, right at hand, a person (you) who can take us through a >real episode, as mysterious as it is, but we eshew the incident. >Shame on us, and those who would take us back to contactees. >Rich Reynolds Whooa! Back up there Rich...! Firstly, why should anyone be "ashamed" for bringing up material for discussion on a UFO researchers List when it is relative to the subject. Where's the right to discussion, think tanking or the creative evaluation? What we don't need is the quashing of input with this subject. Secondly, since I've brought up the contactees for discussion you've called me an optimistic utopianist (which frankly I kinda like), and suggested that I and others who share my interest in the contactees are addicted to chloroform. Josh inferred I was an unthinking believer, said I was a dreamer (I don't mind that either) stated I was incredibly naive (even though he was confusing my words with others that I was quoting), and that I don't use critical thinking (frankly how would he even know). All very judgemental statements and entirely useless for any sort of potential learning. There are a lot of people who haven't bothered to read the contactee literature for themselves, not because they're not interested, but because of this weird unwritten law that says you're a nut if you think there's any credence in it. That is the same insidious, unscrupulous debunking UFO researchers have had to fight against for decades from external sources. I or others with my interest shouldn't have to put up with it from within the UFO community as well. I guess this proves my initial point about the amount of derision the subject matter evokes, but more relevant to the current situation is that this approach towards anyone who wants to discuss the contactees only reinforces that the next generation of UFO interested people may very well remain completely ignorant of the contactees because they are taboo.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Life Hasn't Been Easy Since Aliens Came Calling From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 07:17:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:16:25 -0400 Subject: Life Hasn't Been Easy Since Aliens Came Calling Source: The Kentucky New Era - Hopkinsville, Kentucky http://www.kentuckynewera.com/articles/stories/public/200508/13/04vC_news.ht= ml Saturday, August 13, 2005 The Kelly 'Commotion' Life Hasn't Been Easy Since The Aliens Came Calling By Jennifer P. Brown Kelly, a tiny town about five miles north of Hopkinsville, was made famous by the Aug. 21, 1955, report of an alien invasion. If Lonnie Lankford had been a little older, his mother might not have pushed him under the bed that night she thought she saw an alien outside her bedroom window. It was the evening of Aug. 21, 1955, and Glennie Lankford was trying to protect the children in the little farmhouse off Old Madisonville Road at Kelly. So, Lonnie, who was 12 years old, was scrunched under the mattress with his brother, Charlton, 10, and sister, Mary, 5. He never saw the little creatures that frightened his mother and sent his older half-brother, Elmer "Lucky" Sutton, running for a shotgun. But Lonnie Lankford heard plenty, both that night and in the days and weeks that followed, and he remains clear about what did and did not happened that night 50 years ago. His mother saw a space creature outside her window, not a cat or a monkey or a bird. There were more in the yard and on the roof. The creatures were sliver, not green. They were small, about 3 feet tall, and had webbed hands and feet, and big round eyes,. Shots were fired at the creatures, but there was no raging gun battle that went on for hours. Most important, Lonnie says, no one was drinking at the house that night. No beer, or liquor or moonshine was allowed inside. That was Glennie Lankford's rule. "I remember the commotion and the hollerin' and screaming," Lonnie, 62, said Friday afternoon. "I didn't see them, but my momma did, and I believe her because she was a religious woman and she wouldn't lie." The Legend of Kelly Today, the world knows the Kelly story as the tale of the Little Green Men, or the Kelly Green Men. In the days following the first news story of the family's report, published on Aug. 22, 1955, in the Kentucky New Era, the world beat a path to Kelly, a tiny community about 5 miles north of Hopkinsville. The New York Daily News reported on its front page, "Spacemen Take Kentucky." A headline in the Los Angeles Times read, "Kentucky Gains New Fame." Someone -- maybe a headline writer -- couldn't resist the word play on Kelly and Green, and the little men changed colors, from silver to green. (A French journalist, Yann Mege, who traveled to Hopkinsville in 2000 to research the story, has theorized that the phrase "little green men" originated from the Kelly story.) The family, embarrassed by reports that they were drunk or simply pulling an elaborate prank that night, rejected the attention and turned away reporters. While the world laughed, they were often insulted. The Kelly incident became a legend that grew over time. It remains a classic chapter in the U.S. Air Force's "Project Blue Book," a catalogue of more than 12,000 UFO sightings in the United States between 1952 and 1969. A different time In the summer of 1955, air conditioning was rare in Christian County homes and highly prized in public places such as theaters, stores and churches. People spent a good amount of time simply trying to endure the heat and humidity, said William T. Turner, county history. Fans blew in hallways and at night people often slept, or languished, on pallets on their porches. The First Presbyterian Church in Hopkinsville was running a newspaper ad that touted its air-conditioned sanctuary. Window air conditioning units were selling for $169 at Keach Furniture. Many people in Hopkinsville had black-and-white television sets and received antenna signals for three stations, channels 4, 5 and 8, all out of Nashville, Tenn. At 7 o'clock on Saturday nights, they watched "The Lawrence Welk Show." Six movie theaters, including three drive-ins, were showing westerns, romance stories, monster movies and science fiction. The Alhambra had "Rainbow Over Texas," starring Roy Rogers, Dale Evans and Trigger. The Family Drive-In was showing "Daltons Ride Again," and the Skyway Drive-In had "Revenge of the Creature" and "Flying Saucers." The Shrine Circus came to town, featuring clowns, dancing dogs, elephants and ponies. Hopkinsville resident Margaret Rash played the organ for the circus. There were parties at restaurants -- the Coach and Four in Hopkinsville and Gray's Steak House out on Madisonville Road. One day, people stood in line to apply for jobs at the new Moe Light Plant of Thomas Industries. At Buddies restaurant next to the fire station on East Ninth Street, people paid 10 cents for a hamburger. Former Gov. A.B. "Happy" Chandler campaigned at the courthouse for another term in office. His opponent, Bert Combs, courted voters at the Memorial Building. Dalton Bros. Brick was developing a new subdivision on South Jessup. Almost everybody in Christian County, even the ones in Hopkinsville, still had a connection to farming. They worked on farms, or in tobacco warehouses, or they worked for businesses that couldn't survive without the money generated by farming. Many families, like Lonnie Lankford's, lived on small farms and lived a modest life. The Kelly sighting At Glennie Lankford's house, there was no indoor plumbing. There was an outhouse in the back. Water had to be toted from an outdoor well. Billy Ray Taylor, a visitor from Pennsylvania and friend of "Lucky" Sutton, was going to the outhouse when he saw a light streak through the sky, said Lonnie, who related the story Friday at his home off U.S. 68 near the eastern edge of the Hopkinsville city limits. Taylor saw a spaceship land in a field of sagebrush, but he didn't tell anybody what he saw when he returned to the house. Then Lonnie's mother screamed. She had seen a space creature through the bedroom window. "Lucky" ran for his double-barrel shotgun and fired at the creature. It retreated, but was not hurt. Stepping outside on the small front stoop, "Lucky" felt a tug at his hair. One of the creatures had reached for him from the roof, Lonnie said. "Lucky" backed into the yard and saw four or five aliens on the roof. He fired a few shots. Again, the creatures seemed to retreat but were not hurt. Later, according to the family's story, everybody in the house, including Glennie, the three children, "Lucky" and his brother, J.C. Sutton, and Billy Ray, loaded up in a couple of vehicles and headed for Hopkinsville. At the Hopkinsville Police Department, they asked Police Chief Russell Greenwell for help. Police officers, Kentucky state troopers and soldiers from Fort Campbell converged at the Lankford place that night and searched for a spaceship and aliens. They found nothing, according to the report in the U.S. Air Force "Blue Book." Over the years, Lonnie has heard the speculation that his family actually saw some escaped monkeys from the Shrine circus. He laughs at the suggestion. "I ain't ever seen a silver monkey, or a green one," he said. Lonnie concedes that his older brother, "Lucky" had a reputation for telling tales and that he drank. But on that night, "Lucky" wasn't drinking and he didn't invent a story about space creatures. "He was one of the biggest liars in Hopkinsville, but he didn't lie about that," Lonnie said. To this day, Lonnie wishes he had not crawled under the bed after his mother screamed. "I wish I had seen one of them, but I didn't and I'm not going to lie about it," he said. It's hard to tell, Lonnie said, how many people have made money off the Kelly Green Men since that night in 1955. It seems like everybody but his family made something off the story. "Here I sit, broke and poor, and I ain't made nothing off it," said Lonnie, who is disabled after years of manual labor. He worked so many different jobs, it's hard to list them all =8A roofer, gas station attendant, truck driver, saw mill hand. But Lonnie still has a sense of humor about his family's brush with fame. Three years ago, he went to a Halloween dance at the Hopkinsville Elks Club. He dressed as an alien. Hardly anyone
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 08:00:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:18:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Clark >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:56:56 +0100 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:27:54 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:33:51 +0100 >>>Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>At one time, it was my impression that Magonia was trying to >>find a third way, between literalist and dismissive approaches, >>but that was quite awhile ago. These days there isn't a nickel's >>worth of difference between Magonia and Skeptical Inquirer, >>beyond the fact that SI has a larger circulation and more >>influence. Both will publish slobbering obituaries of Phil >>Klass. >There is far more than a nickel's worth of difference, Jerry. No, there isn't, Christopher. >Skeptical Inquirer is the official publication of an >organisation, namely CSICOP. As such it has a panel of >scientific consultants. It has branches in various US states and >in other countries. It also has a large number of elected >fellows (elected by the existing fellowship) plus a few >subcommittees. It is top heavy with academics. >Magonia has none of these things, and is the official >publication of precisely nobody. It is simply an independent >magazine. Its circulation is likely to be about one per cent of >that of SI. You're really stretching things here. I stated specifically, as anybody can see above, that Skeptical Inquirer has more readers and more influence. That has precisely nothing to do with the respective magazines' ideology, between which there is not a nickel's worth of difference and which is what, very obviously to any other reader, I was referring to.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 1970 Australian Tanami Desert Sighting From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:32:30 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:54:51 -0400 Subject: 1970 Australian Tanami Desert Sighting UFO Sighting 1970 Tanami Desert Northern Territory Reported 2005 by Mr R Hunt Date: August 1970 Location: Mongrel Downs Station near Western Australia border half-way between Alice Springs & Darwin Names have been witheld by request. Three very highly educated and qualified people. A Geophysicist and two Geologists, all involved in Mineral Exploration and Mapping, employed by a mining company in Tennant Creek working in the Tanami Desert. One of the witnesses has since gone on to become a member of parliament in Western Australia. Partial report only - more at web page, plus images. Land marks - Granite & Rabbit Flats Northern territory. At the time of the sighting we were on a property called Mongrel Downs Station close to the western Australian boarder. At the time of the sighting we stopped our two land-rovers at a location known as the Three Officers Hill, which are several hundred feet high in another-wise flat landscape for virtually hundreds of miles. http://www.auforn.com/tanami-UFO.html Report & images copyright AUFORN Diane Frola UFO historians will enjoy reading this report. I have more sightings to post of historical value to the List as soon as I've written them all up 17 in all out of 24 calls. This was the result of the Australia Disclosure Project article in the Sunday Mail newspaper in Queensland. http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/Disclosure_Australia.html ******************************************** Regards Diane Harrison The Australian UFO Research Network Australian Skywatch Director. http://www.auforn.com P.O Box 738 Beaudesert, 4285 Australia.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 An Open Question To The List From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:05:08 -0400 Subject: An Open Question To The List On Tuesday, June 24, 1947, Kenneth Arnold sighted nine disk- shaped objects while flying near Mount Rainier, Washington. Today, Monday, August 15, 2005, is 58 years, 1 month, and 22 days - or if you wish, 21,237 days - later. Ergo, the 'modern era' of Ufology is approaching its sixth decade. My question: ignoring contactees, abductees, Magonia, Phil Klass, etcetera, what 58 scientific facts - one for each year - about UFOs and aliens are known on 15 August 2005 that were not known on 24 June 1947? I'm not referring to opinions, hypotheses, assumptions, extrapolations, anecdotal evidence or wild-arsed guesses, but to cold, hard, indisputable facts. 'Serious' Ufology prides itself on its objective, scientific approach to the subject, and that's commendable. But what does it have to show for nearly six decades of research, other than a ton of paperwork, a gazillion fuzzy photos of lights or daylight "disks", and endless internecine bickering and sniping? IOW, what does Ufology have to offer that would recommend it to the 21st century public? We have seen things on the silver screen that would utterly convince our grandparents that they were real. Anyone with a computer and Photoshop could produce UFO imagery that would be very difficult to discredit as fakes. The people of 2005 have become far more sophisticated about technology and science, and about the ease with which fraud can be perpetrated. And what does Ufology have to offer? Unprovable reports of people seeing lingering lights over Louisville and darting disks over Dallas. Listfolks, if Ufology is ever going to be taken seriously by the public, it will require something far more substantial and credible than it has offered to date.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Sandow On Klass - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:33:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:53:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Sandow On Klass - Clark >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:33:10 +0000 >Subject: Re: Sandow On Klass >>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 01:13:44 -0400 >>Subject: Sandow On Klass [was: Classy Klass] >>>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:50:50 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Classy Klass >>So there was Phil, making yet another confident assertion about >>something he knew nothing about. Of course, he was elderly, and >>also enjoyed being provocative. Probably he'd been more >>reasonable when he was younger. Maybe certain bad habits in his >>thinking - and believe me, we all have them - got more >>pronounced with age. So I'm far from making a judgment about his >>entire intellectual output. I can only say that in my own >>dealings with him, he emerged as a stubborn but unintentionally >>comical figure, who really didn't make much sense. >You are too kind. I knew Klass from 1966 on when we were both >young and presumably at the peak of our mental and other >abilities. He was always the same. After repeated letter >exchanges well into the 1970s, possibly 1980s, strongly >resembling those that you (and others) desctribe I ceased all >communication with him. He would twist arguments, shift the >discussion, anything to avoid directly answering a critical >question, while `lecturing' me about basics that I probably knew >more about than he did. Constant dubious assumptions and >circular reasoning, and finally when all else failed, he would >make a (stupid) joke as a way to evade the issue and avopid >answering the question. Dick is right, Greg. You're being far too charitable, and you're ignoring a historical record which attests to Klass's pseudoscience and malicious fanaticism stretching back to his notorious crusade against James McDonald. That happened virtually at the beginning of Klass's career in ufology, in the latter 1960s. A fundamental characteristic of PJK was his utter inability to change or to adjust his views as new data and ideas came to light. Though his ludicrous theories about superplasma were effectively debunked by everybody from McDonald to the Condon Committee, Klass - who tried to destroy McDonald for his criticisms of same - never disowned them. Instead, he simply ceased talking about them (though, if asked, he would emphatically deny - privately - that he had abandoned them), moving on to a public approach based not on honest observations of unusual natural phenomena but focused obsessively on liars, hoaxers, and publicity- seekers, real or imagined, as major purveyors of dramatic UFO reports - thus the Ann Coulterish qualities that make Klass such a distinctive figure in the history of our subject.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:36:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:55:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:40:51 +1000 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:41:48 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 01:31:21 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>><snip> >There are a lot of people who haven't bothered to read the >contactee literature for themselves, not because they're not >interested, but because of this weird unwritten law that says >you're a nut if you think there's any credence in it. That is >the same insidious, unscrupulous debunking UFO researchers have >had to fight against for decades from external sources. I or >others with my interest shouldn't have to put up with it from >within the UFO community as well. >I guess this proves my initial point about the amount of >derision the subject matter evokes, but more relevant to the >current situation is that this approach towards anyone who wants >to discuss the contactees only reinforces that the next >generation of UFO interested people may very well remain >completely ignorant of the contactees because they are taboo. Sheryl: The contactee era is interesting; it really is. But what it has to do with UFOs in a scientific way is what is being derided by me and others (Jerry Clark, Richard Hall). One can read about Adamski and the other 50s boys but one should not equate their fanciful tales with reality. The messages they got from their space brethren is nice and comforting generally, like that of Jesus and other avatars, but it's only a message, derived from who-can-really-say. So my point, and that of others more qualified to speak to the issue, is - Let's move on and let the contactee movement rest
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: An Open Question To The List - Warren From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 07:46:14 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:01:09 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Warren >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >Subject: An Open Question To The List >On Tuesday, June 24, 1947, Kenneth Arnold sighted nine disk- >shaped objects while flying near Mount Rainier, Washington. >Today, Monday, August 15, 2005, is 58 years, 1 month, and 22 >days - or if you wish, 21,237 days - later. Ergo, the 'modern >era' of Ufology is approaching its sixth decade. >My question: ignoring contactees, abductees, Magonia, Phil >Klass, etcetera, what 58 scientific facts - one for each year - >about UFOs and aliens are known on 15 August 2005 that were not >known on 24 June 1947? I'm not referring to opinions, >hypotheses, assumptions, extrapolations, anecdotal evidence or >wild-arsed guesses, but to cold, hard, indisputable facts. >'Serious' Ufology prides itself on its objective, scientific >approach to the subject, and that's commendable. But what does >it have to show for nearly six decades of research, other than a >ton of paperwork, a gazillion fuzzy photos of lights or daylight >disks, and endless internecine bickering and sniping? >IOW, what does Ufology have to offer that would recommend it to >the 21st century public? We have seen things on the silver >screen that would utterly convince our grandparents that they >were real. Anyone with a computer and Photoshop could produce >UFO imagery that would be very difficult to discredit as fakes. >The people of 2005 have become far more sophisticated about >technology and science, and about the ease with which fraud can >be perpetrated. >And what does Ufology have to offer? Unprovable reports of >people seeing lingering lights over Louisville and darting disks >over Dallas. Listfolks, if Ufology is ever going to be taken >seriously by the public, it will require something far more >substantial and credible than it has offered to date. >So, who has a list of 58 facts? Bob, Here's a start: 1). In most cases involving a craft there is direct evidence, i.e., eye witnesse s. 2). The craft occupies space. 3). It moves as time passes. 4). It emits thermal effects. 5). It exhibits light emission and absorption. 6). It effects the atmosphere. 7). It can be photographed. 8). It has left residual after-effects, i.e., forensic evidence etc. 9). It has caused electric, magnetic and gravitational disorders. 10). It has been tracked by radar
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: An Open Question To The List - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:50:20 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:03:31 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Ledger >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >Subject: An Open Question To The List >On Tuesday, June 24, 1947, Kenneth Arnold sighted nine disk- >shaped objects while flying near Mount Rainier, Washington. >Today, Monday, August 15, 2005, is 58 years, 1 month, and 22 >days - or if you wish, 21,237 days - later. Ergo, the 'modern >era' of Ufology is approaching its sixth decade. >My question: ignoring contactees, abductees, Magonia, Phil >Klass, etcetera, what 58 scientific facts - one for each year - >about UFOs and aliens are known on 15 August 2005 that were not >known on 24 June 1947? I'm not referring to opinions, >hypotheses, assumptions, extrapolations, anecdotal evidence or >wild-arsed guesses, but to cold, hard, indisputable facts. >'Serious' Ufology prides itself on its objective, scientific >approach to the subject, and that's commendable. But what does >it have to show for nearly six decades of research, other than a >ton of paperwork, a gazillion fuzzy photos of lights or daylight >disks, and endless internecine bickering and sniping? >IOW, what does Ufology have to offer that would recommend it to >the 21st century public? We have seen things on the silver >screen that would utterly convince our grandparents that they >were real. Anyone with a computer and Photoshop could produce >UFO imagery that would be very difficult to discredit as fakes. >The people of 2005 have become far more sophisticated about >technology and science, and about the ease with which fraud can >be perpetrated. >And what does Ufology have to offer? Unprovable reports of >people seeing lingering lights over Louisville and darting disks >over Dallas. Listfolks, if Ufology is ever going to be taken >seriously by the public, it will require something far more >substantial and credible than it has offered to date. >So, who has a list of 58 facts? Bob, Go and do research on your own for the next ten years and then come back and ask these questions. As for the sophisticated, technically inclined public you are referring to go to your nearest bookstore and look at the paranormal section. What do you see? Books on tarot card reading, mediums, ghosts, channelling, astrology and esp, etc. There are hundreds of them. Check the fall lineup on TV and see the number of new shows echoing Medium but that will deal with the above mentioned. That's your technically inclined public. The public uses technology but most of them don't have a clue as to how it works. Incidentally, I could pose the same question about cancer research times the tens of billions of dollars sunk into the research of same with little return on the investment.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: An Open Question To The List - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:56:37 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:05:55 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Reynolds >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >Subject: An Open Question To The List ><snip> >And what does Ufology have to offer? Unprovable reports of >people seeing lingering lights over Louisville and darting disks >over Dallas. Listfolks, if Ufology is ever going to be taken >seriously by the public, it will require something far more >substantial and credible than it has offered to date. >So, who has a list of 58 facts? The barbarian hordes invaded Italy, destroyed Rome, and ushered in the Dark Ages. What do we have as proof? Witness accounts and "historical" anecdote, but that's it. No photogaphy, no trace elements of the Huns, Visigoths, or any other invading tribe. But we accept the "fact(s)" of the invasions. And it seems we have more "evidence" or UFOs or flying saucers, if you will, than we have of the incipient cause of the Dark Ages. What more do you want? A new planet resides outside of the Plutonian orbit, and none of us have seen it We only have the word of those who think they have. But is has the aura of fact.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: An Open Question To The List - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:11:08 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:09:10 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Boone >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >Subject: An Open Question To The List >On Tuesday, June 24, 1947, Kenneth Arnold sighted nine disk- >shaped objects while flying near Mount Rainier, Washington. >Today, Monday, August 15, 2005, is 58 years, 1 month, and 22 >days - or if you wish, 21,237 days - later. Ergo, the 'modern >era' of Ufology is approaching its sixth decade. <snip> >And what does Ufology have to offer? Unprovable reports of >people seeing lingering lights over Louisville and darting disks >over Dallas. Listfolks, if Ufology is ever going to be taken >seriously by the public, it will require something far more >substantial and credible than it has offered to date. >So, who has a list of 58 facts? >Bob R Hi Bob, I'll stand back a bit and let the veteran researchers answer you in full, but there are two points I must put a light on. First is Kenneth Arnold's original report you'll need to re- study as you're missing or confused about his data. He didn't see disc shaped objects. Matter of fact his true account is something that many don't focus on. I think a quick glance at his account in his own words will raise your eyebrows. Second, there's evidence and proof of such overwhelming proportions that it's not even worth debating. The problem is two-fold in getting this evidence and proof to the average Joe and Jane. Foremost being no mainstream news service nor scientific body nor government representatives will even sit down and revue the evidence and proof. They run away faster than a jack rabbit in a high wind. They'll run stories, visit events, and character assassinate, data invalidate, and go through hoops to hide and stonewall but to date no fair and square professional examination has been done. Also, evidence and proof that has been gathered either isn't presented properly or has too much 'dirty data', data that's irrelevant. Much like talk show hosts I've noticed in the paranormal/conspiracy arena as well as the political arena that they'll speculate and hyper-speculate and analogise and won't let a scientist or witness get a word in edgewise, thus confusing the layman even more. Presenters on the other hand often just blabber on about an hour when they only have 1 minute of hard data. It'll clear up eventually though. The truth might not take the shape and form of what one would expect so when the truth be
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: An Open Question To The List - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:35:34 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:12:54 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Friedman >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >Subject: An Open Question To The List >On Tuesday, June 24, 1947, Kenneth Arnold sighted nine disk- >shaped objects while flying near Mount Rainier, Washington. >Today, Monday, August 15, 2005, is 58 years, 1 month, and 22 >days - or if you wish, 21,237 days - later. Ergo, the 'modern >era' of Ufology is approaching its sixth decade. >My question: ignoring contactees, abductees, Magonia, Phil >Klass, etcetera, what 58 scientific facts - one for each year - >about UFOs and aliens are known on 15 August 2005 that were not >known on 24 June 1947? I'm not referring to opinions, >hypotheses, assumptions, extrapolations, anecdotal evidence or >wild-arsed guesses, but to cold, hard, indisputable facts. >'Serious' Ufology prides itself on its objective, scientific >approach to the subject, and that's commendable. But what does >it have to show for nearly six decades of research, other than a >ton of paperwork, a gazillion fuzzy photos of lights or daylight >"disks", and endless internecine bickering and sniping? >IOW, what does Ufology have to offer that would recommend it to >the 21st century public? We have seen things on the silver >screen that would utterly convince our grandparents that they >were real. Anyone with a computer and Photoshop could produce >UFO imagery that would be very difficult to discredit as fakes. >The people of 2005 have become far more sophisticated about >technology and science, and about the ease with which fraud can >be perpetrated. >And what does Ufology have to offer? Unprovable reports of >people seeing lingering lights over Louisville and darting disks >over Dallas. Listfolks, if Ufology is ever going to be taken >seriously by the public, it will require something far more >substantial and credible than it has offered to date. >So, who has a list of 58 facts? Bob, it sounds like you have been too lazy to do your own homework. I see no mention of the fact that 21.5% of the 3201 sightings looked at in Blue Book Special Report 14 could not be identified completely separate from the 9.5% that were listed as insufficient data. No mention of the fact that the better the quality of the report the more likely to be unexplainable; the fact that a chi square analysis based on 6 different observable characteristics showed that the probability that the UNKNOWNS were just missed knowns was less than 1%. No mention of the lie by the Secretary of the USAF that even the Unknown 3% could have been identified as conventional phenomena or illusions if more complete observational data had been available. There are many other "Government UFO Lies" noted in my MUFON 2005 paper. I see no mention of the 41 outstanding cases discussed by Dr. James E. McDonald in his Congressional testimony including multiple witness radar visual cases..... I see no mention of the old pre-computer UFO photos that have passed muster with an optical physicist, Dr. Bruce Maccabee. I see no mention of the statement from USAF General Carroll Bolender that reports which could effect National Security are NOT part of the Blue Book System. I see no mention of the 156 NSA UFO documents that are whited out almost entirely except for 1 or 2 lines per page. or of the CIA UFO documents on which one can read 8 words. I see no mention of the dozen or so PhD Theses about UFOs. I see no mention of the more than 3000 physical trace cases from 90 countries that have been collected by Ted Phillips. No mention of the 30% of the 117 cases looked at in the Condon report could not be identified. No mention of the statements from military people associated with the Roswell Incident nor of Marjorie Fish's oustanding star map research.... Come back when you have done your homework. There are references on my website at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: An Open Question To The List - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:36:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:15:10 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Maccabee >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >Subject: An Open Question To The List >On Tuesday, June 24, 1947, Kenneth Arnold sighted nine disk- >shaped objects while flying near Mount Rainier, Washington. >Today, Monday, August 15, 2005, is 58 years, 1 month, and 22 >days - or if you wish, 21,237 days - later. Ergo, the 'modern >era' of Ufology is approaching its sixth decade. >My question: ignoring contactees, abductees, Magonia, Phil >Klass, etcetera, what 58 scientific facts - one for each year - >about UFOs and aliens are known on 15 August 2005 that were not >known on 24 June 1947? I'm not referring to opinions, >hypotheses, assumptions, extrapolations, anecdotal evidence or >wild-arsed guesses, but to cold, hard, indisputable facts. >'Serious' Ufology prides itself on its objective, scientific >approach to the subject, and that's commendable. But what does >it have to show for nearly six decades of research, other than a >ton of paperwork, a gazillion fuzzy photos of lights or daylight >"disks", and endless internecine bickering and sniping? <snip> >So, who has a list of 58 facts? Never tried to create a list of 58 facts. However, here is one fact: Fact 1 (weak version): Despite his claim "I never studied a sighting for which I couldn't find a 'prosaic explanation'," the fact is that he could not explain them all. See http://brumac.8k.com/prosaic1.html But since you want an answer that doesn't involve Klass, let me extend widen the net: Fact 1 (strong version): There are sightings for which skeptics have not provided convincing explanations. Corollary to Fact 1: There are sightings for which the published explanations (by skeptics) have been proven to be incorrect. Note carefully: one cannot always determine whether or not an explanation is actually correct, but one can decide whether or not an explanation is convincing. If the proposed explanations for all sightings were convincing.... I wouldn't be here.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Out-Klassed From: Terry Blanton <commengr.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:59:17 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:16:28 -0400 Subject: Out-Klassed ebk and Listers, It is with amusement that I read the vindictive comments about Philip. It is my opinion that he did nothing less that what was expected. Not that he was remunerated for his skepticism; but, that he was given inside knowledge in exchange for his arguments. It is also my opinion that Carl Sagan made the same deal later in life when Klass became less effective. Arguing with Phil was like wrestling a pig in mud. You eventually realize the pig is enjoying it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:40:09 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:23:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:01:55 -0500 >Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:44:19 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:30:22 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>>On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 13:23:43 -0400 UFO UpDates - Toronto >>><ufoupdates.nul>writes: >>>>Source: The New York Times >>>>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/09/health/09alien.html >>>>August 9, 2005 >>>>Health >>>>Books on Science >>>>"Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped by >>>>Aliens," >>>>by Susan Clancy. Harvard University Press, $22.95. >>>>Explaining Those Vivid Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>>>By Benedict Carey >><snip> >>>John Mack, rest his soul, was nearly on to the paradigm that >>>accounts for abduction reports. Clancy is on to a career move, >>>by suggesting her study (and book) is a valid academic >>>enterprise. >>>It isn't. Nothing psychological can be. It's smoke and mirrors >>>and has been since the heyday of Freud, who was a genius, but >>>not in a scientific sense. >>>Clancy, like some in ufology, can be discounted, which is what >>>her book will end up being, sooner than later... >>But weren't you arguing just the opposite of this some months >>back? >Peter: >I inserted the earlier material that is similar to Clancy's, >because it's the antithesis to the abduction argument. >I like to see both sides of an issue. >In the case of psychology, with which I am somewhat familiar, >it's an art, and conclusions drawn by psychologists and >psychiatrists are subjective, based upon data that seems to make >sense. But it's not science. The conclusions are crimped by the >quirks of the interpreting psychologist, and in my experience >they are a baleful lot, with more issues than their patients. >As for abductions, one must concede that some are caused by >sleep disorders and mental quirks - those mental quirks too >suppressed and mysterious to be explained. >But then there are rational beings, John Velez and Will Bueche, >among others, who don't appear to have quirks and report that >they were not experiencing sleep paralysis or any other kind of >So, while I looked at and posted the antithetical positions by >persons like Clancy, I also, in this recent post, wanted to make >it clear that all events have two sides or more, and we have no >idea what abductions are - they remain as much of an enigma as >UFOs, and thus are open to conjecture, meaning that the >psychological one should get no more credence than other >suppositions, especially since most psychologists are nuts, but >control the labelling so they escape public opprobrium. But no one is saying that people with aware sleep paralysis, or even with more serious sleep disorders are irrational or mentally ill. They are normal people having unusual and (at least to them and much of the general public) anomalous
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Sandow On Klass - Randle From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:00:35 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:53:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Sandow On Klass - Randle >From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 01:13:44 -0400 >Subject: Sandow On Klass [was: Classy Klass] >>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:50:50 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Classy Klass >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:13:07 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Classy Klass >>>Yes, Phil Klass had a great sense of humour. What a shame that >>>some of the people who have posted rather mean-minded comments >>>on this List could not appreciate it. Maybe his rather acerbic >>>irony went down better in Britain than in America. >>I don't think it is a trans-Atlantic cultural bias so much as >>many folks in the "UFO community" having great big chips on >>their shoulders, chips that Phil was frequently swinging at. >I won't make any claims about who has the bigger chips on their >shoulders, UFO believers or UFO skeptics. But I'll retell my own >Phil Klass stories, which certainly show that, at least when I >talked with him and exchanged letters, he wasn't thinking very >clearly. And he was making absurd assumptions in order to >support his arguments, in some cases about subjects he didn't >know anything about. >Here's the story. I interviewed him in his home in Washington >for maybe two hours, to gather material for a series of articles >I was writing about UFOs for a music magazines. This would have >been around 1995. (For those who might not know this, American >rock magazines in those days - and maybe still - regularly ran >serious articles on serious subjects other than music.) Following Greg's lead here, I thought I might share a couple of Klass stories. I too saw him in Washington, D.C. This would have been in the late 1970s when I was training in Washington, D.C. We had some time off and Phil invited me to go sailing with him. The wind died while we were out on the river but he refused to start the engine to get us into shore. Instead he maneuvered around until he found a bit of a breeze and sailed us back to dock. I learned later that sailors hate the engines and try to avoid using them at all costs. How does this fit in with what Greg wrote? Well, years later, Phil said he didn't remember this and that he believed that we had never been sailing together. It was only a couple of hours on a Saturday afternoon but it was about the only time I have ever been sailing. It was probably forgettable for him but it was a rare experience for me. Oh, you want another Phil Klass story? Here really is my favorite. Just after the publication of UFO Crash at Roswell, I was on Larry King Live with Phil. They put us in separate green rooms, though I said I didn't mind having a chat with Phil. I think they were afraid we'd talk out our problems and any fireworks would be in the green room rather than on the air. Anyway, we were sitting there and Uncle Phil was going on about some bit of trivia about the Roswell witnesses and I was growing tired of his pronouncements that sounded somewhat reasoned except for a minor point. I finally interrupted and said, "Why don't you ask Phil how many of the witness he's interviewed?" At the time I thought he said, "One." He really said, "None." And I think that threw the debate to me. He was most gracious, however, when we all learned that Don Schmitt had been less than honest in his dealings with me or about his background. Yes, he pointed out than Schmitt and I had worked together for five or six years and he found it surprising that I didn't know what Schmitt did for a living. I pointed out that my first question to someone was not, "Do you work at the post office?" Schmitt had told me he made his living as an artist and I had no reason to doubt it. After all, I made mine as a writer. So, Phil could be stubborn, and he had explanations for every UFO sighting - and when all else failed, he labeled them as hoaxes. I don't know if he still believed that Socorro was engineered by Lonnie Zamora and the mayor to create a tourist attraction or not (which is a really dumb idea) but he did have some good ideas about UFO research and what we should be doing. I always enjoyed his SUN newsletter, even when he was taking me to task in it. I wondered about all the underlinings, italics, and bold face type, but it was fun - sort of serious Saucer Smear, though I doubt either Phil or Jim Moseley will appreciate the comparison. And given who he was, he did subscribe to everything and read through it all. He had fun with what he was doing, and as I have told many, I'm sure he enjoyed his role as rat in the birthday cake. I think he liked the way people in the UFO community thought of him and I think some of his behavior was over the top on purpose just to get a reaction. Donald Menzel, I think just felt superior to the rest of us. Klass, I think was amused by us, but I also think he was amused by himself. I never thought of him as mean spirited, though there are many inside our community who are. If nothing else, we have lost a sparring partner. Like so many others, I have dozens (maybe hundreds) of letters from him, asking all sorts of questions. But he also was very generous in sharing his information with us. So, once again, good-by Uncle Phil and I hope you have the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:18:54 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:56:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? - Rogerson >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:59:20 +1000 >Subject: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >I thought List readers might be interested in my musings on this >theme from my "blog": >http://theozfiles.blogspot.com <snip> >The Peter Khoury alien abduction milieu, which is presented as a >detailed case study in my book "HAIR of the ALIEN", represents a >potent example of what the Clancy/McNally research fails to >address - abduction cases that are clearly and consciously >recollected, with compelling physical evidence that appears to >support their legitimacy. >>Regards, >Bill Chalker Bill. Have proven beyond doubt that a) this hair comes straight from a human body and not say a wig made of human hair, b) that it is a pubic hair and not say a head hair, c) that it definately a woman's hair. For the sake of argument granting all three of the those suppositions, what is so anomalous about an Australian woman of predominately Irish family background having a Chinese maternal ancestor. This woman's mothers, mothers, mothers, mother's etc etc mother came from China, who knows how many generations back. I can think of various ways this could have come about, from a fairly recent origin (Irish man meets Chinese woman in Liverpool in 1875), to the moderate past (sailor/ trader brings his Chinese wife or at least part Chinese daughter back to Europe to be raised as good Christians in say 1700), to a gene going from continent to continent over the millennia. By a similar process an English woman featured on one of the many TV genealogy shows found her mt DNA came from Tonga! The more European the hair the more remote the Chinese ancestry is likely to be. We only have Koury and his wife's word that this hair came in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:02:14 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:58:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder - Rimmer >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:06:26 +0100 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:25:33 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >>Thanks for confirming that there was never any such thing as >>the British Government's 'UFO Project'. >I confirmed no such thing. If you re-read the above answer >you'll see that what I actually said was there was no formal >title, along the lines of Project Blue Book, and that the >matter of what to call the MOD's UFO investigations is therefore >a matter of personal preference. The MOD has been researching >and investigating UFO sightings since the Fifties, as anybody >who has studied the declassified files at the National Archives >can tell you. For me, using the word "project" to describe this >work seems appropriate. But if you want to use another term, >John, then that's entirely your business. Thanks for confirming again that there was never any such thing
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Billy Meier Again From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:33:30 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:01:44 -0400 Subject: Billy Meier Again I can't help it. I keep getting drawn back into those Billy Meier case studies. Last night on Coast To Coast AM with Art Bell they re-broadcast an interview Art did with Meier's official U.S. envoy. Art hit him with the hard-nosed questions without the ridiculous speculative nonsense of late with questions like "Do aliens have their own Twilight Zone TV programs?" that interfere with the data stream. Art just hit it with real old fashioned newsmanship. As pressed as Michael Horn, Meier's envoy was, he did flounder a bit but responded properly when Art put the goods to him. I've yet to see the 'final final final' photo analysis on the Meier pics and films and with today's top flight computers and programs that shouldn't be a problem. Should take all of a few days to prove whether the objects are real in their space and of dimensions and weight as suggested by distance etc. Why this isn't done is beyond me. It's a simple case of either the pics and vids are real or they're not. In the meantime there're these 'space brother' messages that I hate because as far as I'm concerned if there isn't a messenger to interview, then there ain't no message. We need to put this to rest. Meier's stories and evidence are proof positive or they're not. To delay is a crime on two fronts: Meier is the most unique and priviledge human since Biblical times or he's the best con man since PT Barnum and then some. Far too many paranormal mysteries drag on and on with no where near as much evidence as the Meier people have produced so what's with the long dragged out revelation? Meier's team has some awesome evidence. Just awesome and aren't given their due or don't want their due. Meier's team has an overwhelming amount of physical evidence and witnesses. Can't beat them apples! If you didn't listen to last night's C2C show 8/14/05 then I would highly suggest doing so.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: An Open Question To The List - Renaud From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:33:46 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:05:04 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Renaud >From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 07:46:14 -0700 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >>Subject: An Open Question To The List >>On Tuesday, June 24, 1947, Kenneth Arnold sighted nine disk- >>shaped objects while flying near Mount Rainier, Washington. >>Today, Monday, August 15, 2005, is 58 years, 1 month, and 22 >>days - or if you wish, 21,237 days - later. Ergo, the 'modern >>era' of Ufology is approaching its sixth decade. >>My question: ignoring contactees, abductees, Magonia, Phil >>Klass, etcetera, what 58 scientific facts - one for each year - >>about UFOs and aliens are known on 15 August 2005 that were not >>known on 24 June 1947? I'm not referring to opinions, >>hypotheses, assumptions, extrapolations, anecdotal evidence or >>wild-arsed guesses, but to cold, hard, indisputable facts. <snip> >>And what does Ufology have to offer? Unprovable reports of >>people seeing lingering lights over Louisville and darting disks >>over Dallas. Listfolks, if Ufology is ever going to be taken >>seriously by the public, it will require something far more >>substantial and credible than it has offered to date. >>So, who has a list of 58 facts? >Here's a start: >1). In most cases involving a craft there is direct evidence, > i.e., eye witnesses. >2). The craft occupies space. >3). It moves as time passes. >4). It emits thermal effects. >5). It exhibits light emission and absorption. >6). It effects the atmosphere. >7). It can be photographed. >8). It has left residual after-effects, i.e., forensic evidence etc. >9). It has caused electric, magnetic and gravitational disorders. >10). It has been tracked by radar Thank you for your cordial response, good sir. The issue then becomes identifying "it". Therein lies the rub, since most of the listed things can equally apply to conventional aircrafts. BTW, I'm playing the devil's advocate here. I'm convinced that "something" is going on and has been for years. My point in posting was to gather views on ways to remove Ufology from the fringe area by presenting a body of concrete evidence that would
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Contactee Taboo - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:52:16 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:15:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Clark >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:36:40 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:40:51 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:41:48 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 01:31:21 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >The contactee era is interesting; it really is. >But what it has to do with UFOs in a scientific way is what is >being derided by me and others (Jerry Clark, Richard Hall). >One can read about Adamski and the other 50s boys but one >should not equate their fanciful tales with reality. >The messages they got from their space brethren is nice and >comforting generally, like that of Jesus and other avatars, but >it's only a message, derived from who-can-really-say. Rich, Well, actually, we can say. It has been said, in a number of papers in the literature of the sociology of religion. James R. Lewis has edited several books on the sources of the contactee movement and message. In fact, I have a paper in an upcoming anthology of his from Syracuse University Press (on Dorothy Mart/Sister Thedra's odyssey of space contacts and occult pilgrimages). But the best one-stop source of documentation for the origins of the contactee message/theology is by the late David Stupple (who was a colleague of Westrum and Truzzi in the Eastern Michigan University sociology department). This paper was published posthumously in JUFOS, available from CUFOS. The precise citation is "Historical Links Between the Occult and Flying Saucers." Journal of UFO Studies 5 (n.s., 1994): 92-108.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Contactee Taboo - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:42:10 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:41:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Gehrman >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:36:40 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:40:51 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:41:48 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 01:31:21 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>><snip> >>There are a lot of people who haven't bothered to read the >>contactee literature for themselves, not because they're not >>interested, but because of this weird unwritten law that says >>you're a nut if you think there's any credence in it. That is >>the same insidious, unscrupulous debunking UFO researchers have >>had to fight against for decades from external sources. I or >>others with my interest shouldn't have to put up with it from >>within the UFO community as well. >>I guess this proves my initial point about the amount of >>derision the subject matter evokes, but more relevant to the >>current situation is that this approach towards anyone who wants >>to discuss the contactees only reinforces that the next >>generation of UFO interested people may very well remain >>completely ignorant of the contactees because they are taboo. >The contactee era is interesting; it really is. >But what it has to do with UFOs in a scientific way is what is >being derided by me and others (Jerry Clark, Richard Hall). >One can read about Adamski and the other 50s boys but one should >not equate their fanciful tales with reality. >The messages they got from their space brethren is nice and >comforting generally, like that of Jesus and other avatars, but >it's only a message, derived from who-can-really-say. >So my point, and that of others more qualified to speak to the >issue, is - Let's move on and let the contactee movement rest >in peace and history. It was fun, but that's all it was. Sheryl, Rich, I agree 100% with Sheryl. There is a taboo limiting the discussion around contactees, therefore few List members know their stories. This situation can be remedied by spending a few dollars and purchasing Wendy Connor's library of audio MP3 disks. You can listen to the likes of Daniel Fry, Woodrow Derenberger, John Otto, Adamski, Aho, Ferguson, etc in the privacy of your own home. You'll be amazed at how believable many of these witnesses sound. That's how I spent my weekend: listening to this amazing collection and trying out my newly purchased Voice Stress Analyzer called the "Detective II" at: http://liebusters.com/ It's quite a valuable addition to any investigator's toolkit. During one interesting presentation, John Keel (1967) mentions a third group besides contactees and abductees: contactors. Keel stated that he had 1500 thoroughly investigated cases that fell into this category. These are folks who have seen creatures entering or leaving UFOs and have made contact in some way but were not abducted or given special attention except for a few passing thoughts or words. One example from Wendy's collection is the first hand account of Bob Estes who encountered a tractor-treaded UFO while driving on a lonely Iowa road. This strange craft forced him to the stop on the side of the road and then a creature, persumely the craft's operator, approached his car and said. "Bob, How do you like this?" The creature immidately returned to its craft which then shot straight up and out of sight. The VSA indicated that Estes was not being deceptive.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: An Open Question To The List - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 16:37:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:43:07 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - White >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:35:34 -0300 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List <snip> >I see no mention of the dozen or so PhD Theses about UFOs. Interesting! Has anyone compiled a list of where these documents are, their identifying information, and maybe if some of them are on line? Does anyone know what field these theses were submitted for?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Koi From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:54:22 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:44:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 - Koi >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:36:19 +0100 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 <snip> >I think a more typical example might be John Avis who, along >with his family, was abducted in east London in 1974, a case >which does not appear in Jerry's encyclopaedia. Although the >Avis family are undoubtedly classified as 'abductees' - their >experience was involuntary and unrepeated - it had many of >the aspects of the classic contactee meeting, including >messages from concerned and benevolent-seeming aliens, >and subsequent changes in the percipients' lifestyles and >philosophy, and discovering an artistic interest and ability. John, Just a quick e-mail to point out that the Avis abduction does in fact appear in Jerry's encyclopedia (see "The UFO Encyclopedia: The Phenomenon from the Beginning - 2nd edition" (1998) in Volume 1:A-K at page 250 (in an entry entitled "Contactees") of the Omnigraphics hardback edition). Although the discussion of that abduction is very brief, the relevant section may be of interest to you since it discusses various abduction cases involving "religious (in other words contacteelike) aspects". In addition to the Avis abduction, not surprisingly Betty Andreasson is discussed in this context, plus several others (including the Bebedouro abduction of Jose Antonio da Silva (1969.0504)).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: The Subject Of UFOs On Larry King Wednesday - From: Craig Beasley <fallingleaf.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 16:02:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:47:04 -0400 Subject: Re: The Subject Of UFOs On Larry King Wednesday - >From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:04:36 -0400 >Subject: The Subject Of UFOs On Larry King Wednesday >From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:04:36 -0400 >Subject: The Subject Of UFOs On Larry King Wednesday >Larry King has been collecting information for a program to air >Wednesday, which will be in response (at least in part) to the >War of the Worlds movie. >John Scheussler, Bud Hopkins, and Rob Swiatek are among those >interviewed and we ll have to see where the CNN program goes >with this. A lot of general UFO information has been collected
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: An Open Question To The List - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:31:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:48:36 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Maccabee >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:11:08 EDT. >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >>Subject: An Open Question To The List >>On Tuesday, June 24, 1947, Kenneth Arnold sighted nine disk- >>shaped objects while flying near Mount Rainier, Washington. >>Today, Monday, August 15, 2005, is 58 years, 1 month, and 22 >>days - or if you wish, 21,237 days - later. Ergo, the 'modern >>era' of Ufology is approaching its sixth decade. <snip> >>And what does Ufology have to offer? Unprovable reports of >>people seeing lingering lights over Louisville and darting disks >>over Dallas. Listfolks, if Ufology is ever going to be taken >>seriously by the public, it will require something far more >>substantial and credible than it has offered to date. >>So, who has a list of 58 facts? >>Bob R >Hi Bob, I'll stand back a bit and let the veteran researchers >answer you in full, but there are two points I must put a light >on. >First is Kenneth Arnold's original report you'll need to re- >study as you're missing or confused about his data. He didn't >see disc shaped objects. Matter of fact his true account is >something that many don't focus on. I think a quick glance at >his account in his own words will raise your eyebrows. You can find the most complete discussion of the Arnold
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: An Open Question To The List - Renaud From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:43:56 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:52:53 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Renaud >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:50:20 -0300 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >>Subject: An Open Question To The List <snip> >>And what does Ufology have to offer? Unprovable reports of >>people seeing lingering lights over Louisville and darting disks >>over Dallas. Listfolks, if Ufology is ever going to be taken >>seriously by the public, it will require something far more >>substantial and credible than it has offered to date. >>So, who has a list of 58 facts? >Bob, >Go and do research on your own for the next ten years and then >come back and ask these questions. Will you be here when I return? And what will I find that would be convincing to people to whom Ufology is a pseudoscience? >As for the sophisticated, technically inclined public you are >referring to go to your nearest bookstore and look at the >paranormal section. What do you see? Books on tarot card >reading, mediums, ghosts, channelling, astrology and esp, etc. >There are hundreds of them. Are the people who read those things the ones that you would want to interest, or is it more likely that they are the only ones that would be interested? The perception of Ufology amongst those who aren't "into" that genre is not positive. >Check the fall lineup on TV and see the number of new shows >echoing Medium but that will deal with the above mentioned. >That's your technically inclined public. I haven't wasted time with the tube since the second season of X-Files, so I have no clue about what passes for TV entertainment these days. Again, however, you miss (or evade) the point. >The public uses technology but most of them don't have a clue as >to how it works. However, they DO know that it _does_ work because they've seen its results, and what can be done with it. One doesn't need to understand the technology of CGI, e.g., to know that it has made extremely convincing fakes quite simple to manufacture. Ergo, what could you as a ufologist present that would impress them? >Incidentally, I could pose the same question about cancer >research times the tens of billions of dollars sunk into the >research of same with little return on the investment. That's a red herring. IAC, cancer research has tremendous importance to a world where one in six people contract cancer. That relevance to the public is not shared by people who research UFOs. >If you don't know Bob, then you haven't been looking very hard. That's why I've been "reading the mail" on the List, directly since July of 2004 and via the website for a lot longer than
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Sandow On Klass - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:46:44 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:59:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Sandow On Klass - Friedman >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:33:38 -0500 >Subject: Re: Sandow On Klass >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:33:10 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Sandow On Klass >>>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 01:13:44 -0400 >>>Subject: Sandow On Klass [was: Classy Klass] >>>>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:50:50 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: Classy Klass >>>So there was Phil, making yet another confident assertion about >>>something he knew nothing about. Of course, he was elderly, and >>>also enjoyed being provocative. Probably he'd been more >>>reasonable when he was younger. Maybe certain bad habits in his >>>thinking - and believe me, we all have them - got more >>>pronounced with age. So I'm far from making a judgment about his >>>entire intellectual output. I can only say that in my own >>>dealings with him, he emerged as a stubborn but unintentionally >>>comical figure, who really didn't make much sense. >>You are too kind. I knew Klass from 1966 on when we were both >>young and presumably at the peak of our mental and other >>abilities. He was always the same. After repeated letter >>exchanges well into the 1970s, possibly 1980s, strongly >>resembling those that you (and others) desctribe I ceased all >>communication with him. He would twist arguments, shift the >>discussion, anything to avoid directly answering a critical >>question, while `lecturing' me about basics that I probably knew >>more about than he did. Constant dubious assumptions and >>circular reasoning, and finally when all else failed, he would >>make a (stupid) joke as a way to evade the issue and avopid >>answering the question. >Dick is right, Greg. You're being far too charitable, and you're >ignoring a historical record which attests to Klass's >pseudoscience and malicious fanaticism stretching back to his >notorious crusade against James McDonald. That happened >virtually at the beginning of Klass's career in ufology, in the >latter 1960s. A fundamental characteristic of PJK was his utter >inability to change or to adjust his views as new data and ideas >came to light. >Though his ludicrous theories about superplasma were effectively >debunked by everybody from McDonald to the Condon Committee, >Klass - who tried to destroy McDonald for his criticisms of same >- never disowned them. Instead, he simply ceased talking about >them (though, if asked, he would emphatically deny - privately - >that he had abandoned them), moving on to a public approach >based not on honest observations of unusual natural phenomena >but focused obsessively on liars, hoaxers, and publicity- >seekers, real or imagined, as major purveyors of dramatic UFO >reports - thus the Ann Coulterish qualities that make Klass such >a distinctive figure in the history of our subject. I think Dick and Jerry are right on and also appreciate the comments by Greg. Several have told me I shouldn't say bad things about Phil. Therefore I will try to provide a paean of praise to Phil. First, I think he was one of the most successful propagandists of the past century. He managed almost singlehandedly to convince a host - two generations - of media people and scientists that there was nothing to UFOs, no sightings he couldn't explain, no evidence of crashes, landings, cover-up, abductions. Leave it to Phil. They were too lazy or too busy to check for themselves. He was a very fast typist and a good enough writer to waste the time of many ufologists including me in responding to his irrational, inaccurate, often outlandish claims. He had enormous chutzpah. He claimed that he had never found a case that didn't have a prosaic explanation even though everybody else could find plenty. Naturally his books didn't cover Blue Book Special Report 14 with 21.5% of their cases being unexplaianable. I don't think he ever noted the 30% UNKNOWNS from the Condon report.. On the Larry King show with Dave Jacobs, he was asked his opinion of Jacob's new book about abductions and claimed that all the people had mental health problems, despite his not being a mental health professional, and that the introduction was written by John Mack who was. Part way through the show when asked directly by Larry if he had read the book. He said "No". On a different show Kevin Randle asked how many of the Roswell witnesses he had interviewed. He mumbled about having talked to many UFO witnesses. Kevin pushed him "Roswell witnesses". "None" He challlenged me about the Pica typeface on the Cutler Twining memo. He claimed on the basis of 9 NSC memos (done in elite type) that he had obtained by mail from the Ike Library, that the typeface should have been elite, not Pica. He had never been to the Ike Library and seemed totally unaware of the 250,000 pages of NSC material that were there. I had, of course, been there and noted that at least 3 typewriters had been in use. He offered me $100 for every genuine such item using the same size and style type - unfortunately up to a limit of only 10. To his credit he sent me $1,000:00 in response to the copies I sent him of 14 such items and my invoice. Proves he was honest? He did get very upset when I included a copy of his check in my Final Report On Operation Majestic 12. This instance provided me with one of the best examples I know of the intellectual bankruptcy of the pseudoscience of anti- ufology... an extrapolation from 9 to 250,000. is really quite extraordinary. To his credit Phil also provided the living epitome of the 4 basic rules of debunkers: 1. What the public doesn't know, I am not going to tell them. 2. Don't bother me with the facts, my minds is made up. 3. If you can't attack the data, attack the people. It is much easier. 4. Do your research by proclamation. Investigation is too much trouble. Yes, indeed, the great propagandist will be missed.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: An Open Question To The List - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:24:14 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:03:42 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Ledger >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:56:37 -0500 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >>Subject: An Open Question To The List >><snip> >>And what does Ufology have to offer? Unprovable reports of >>people seeing lingering lights over Louisville and darting disks >>over Dallas. Listfolks, if Ufology is ever going to be taken >>seriously by the public, it will require something far more >>substantial and credible than it has offered to date. >>So, who has a list of 58 facts? >The barbarian hordes invaded Italy, destroyed Rome, and ushered >in the Dark Ages. >What do we have as proof? >Witness accounts and "historical" anecdote, but that's it. >No photogaphy, no trace elements of the Huns, Visigoths, or any >other invading tribe. >But we accept the "fact(s)" of the invasions. >And it seems we have more "evidence" or UFOs or flying saucers, >if you will, than we have of the incipient cause of the Dark >Ages. >What more do you want? A new planet resides outside of the >Plutonian orbit, and none of us have seen it We only have the >word of those who think they have. >But is has the aura of fact. >And you think that ufologists are remiss in some way? >You're just baiting the List, right? To liven up a dull life? Good points. Mind you here was all of that artwork, paintings and sculptures, from the middle ages, but those could have been
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: An Open Question To The List - Renaud From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:31:02 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:05:41 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Renaud >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:56:37 -0500 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >>Subject: An Open Question To The List >><snip> >>And what does Ufology have to offer? Unprovable reports of >>people seeing lingering lights over Louisville and darting disks >>over Dallas. Listfolks, if Ufology is ever going to be taken >>seriously by the public, it will require something far more >>substantial and credible than it has offered to date. >>So, who has a list of 58 facts? >The barbarian hordes invaded Italy, destroyed Rome, and ushered >in the Dark Ages. >What do we have as proof? >Witness accounts and "historical" anecdote, but that's it. >No photogaphy, no trace elements of the Huns, Visigoths, or any >other invading tribe. >But we accept the "fact(s)" of the invasions. And the facts are quite credible when the barbarians could travel on foot and horseback from point A to point B. The argument fails utterly when contemplating the notion of aliens travelling dozens or hundreds of light years to get here and then being content to flit about in the sky or leave inconclusive physical traces. >And it seems we have more "evidence" or UFOs or flying saucers, >if you will, than we have of the incipient cause of the Dark >Ages. It's a typical red herring "argument". The issue is "flying saucers", not Attila and his merry band of fun-loving barbarians. >What more do you want? A new planet resides outside of the >Plutonian orbit, and none of us have seen it We only have the >word of those who think they have. >But is has the aura of fact. Actually, the photographic evidence as published by NASA trumps your "aura of fact". >And you think that ufologists are remiss in some way? Did I say that? My point is that outside of the ufological field, what credibility is there? And does it have the wherewithal to come in out of the cold and become a respectable field of endeavor? Or perhaps you prefer to see Ufology consigned to email lists and the side shows of science. The request was for verifiable facts that can stand up to the rigors of objective scientific inquiry and thus can be a basis for defining Ufology as a real science. >You're just baiting the List, right? To liven up a dull life? Oh, my yes. You cannot fathom how empty and meaningless my life is without your dazzling wit and wisdom.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Contactee Taboo - Frola From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:36:25 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:08:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Frola >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:40:51 +1000 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:41:48 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 01:31:21 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>>>From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:31:09 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>><snip> >>>If I exhibit any sensitivity about the subject... I come by it >>>honestly. >>What gets me, John... >>Is that and honest and upright guy like you has an experience, >>and relates that experience, as best you can, and still some >>would set it aside as something other than what it was. >>Your intelligence and observational proclivities should force us >>all to take a serious look at what happend to you (and others). <snip> >There are a lot of people who haven't bothered to read the >contactee literature for themselves, not because they're not >interested, but because of this weird unwritten law that says >you're a nut if you think there's any credence in it. That is >the same insidious, unscrupulous debunking UFO researchers have >had to fight against for decades from external sources. I or >others with my interest shouldn't have to put up with it from >I guess this proves my initial point about the amount of >derision the subject matter evokes, but more relevant to the >current situation is that this approach towards anyone who wants >to discuss the contactees only reinforces that the next >generation of UFO interested people may very well remain >completely ignorant of the contactees because they are taboo. But Sheryl, Isn't your husband's scientific papers that he has published to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:58:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:13:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:40:09 +0100 >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:01:55 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:44:19 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>>>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 12:30:22 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers <snip> >>>But weren't you arguing just the opposite of this some months >>>back? >>Peter: >>I inserted the earlier material that is similar to Clancy's, >>because it's the antithesis to the abduction argument. >>I like to see both sides of an issue. >>In the case of psychology, with which I am somewhat familiar, >>it's an art, and conclusions drawn by psychologists and >>psychiatrists are subjective, based upon data that seems to make >>sense. But it's not science. The conclusions are crimped by the >>quirks of the interpreting psychologist, and in my experience >>they are a baleful lot, with more issues than their patients. >>As for abductions, one must concede that some are caused by >>sleep disorders and mental quirks - those mental quirks too >>suppressed and mysterious to be explained. Hello Peter, Rich, all, I'd like to jump in here long enough to make a couple of comments if I may... sorry for the length of this reply. Rich wrote: >>But then there are rational beings, John Velez and Will Bueche, >>among others, who don't appear to have quirks and report that >>they were not experiencing sleep paralysis or any other kind of... I worked very closely with Budd Hopkins for just about six years. It afforded me the unique opportunity to observe Budd closely over a long time period, and to meet many of the individuals he was working with. I'm sure Will had a similar experience in his work/ time with John Mack. Without asking Will, I know that he would confirm what I am about to say. Among Budd's many 'clients' have been a few practicing psychologists, police officers, high ranking military officers, and other equally accomplished and credible individuals. Those cases are mixed in with those of many other perfectly credible people from all walks and 'strata' of life. Will and I are only the more 'public' and 'accessible' of a surprisingly large number of people who, for valid reasons involving family and career, (among others,) will not expose themselves publicly. And it's a shame too, because people get the impression that guys like Will and I are an 'exception' of some kind, when in fact, we are 'the general rule.' The very few 'whacko's' who will go as far as reporting to, and then attempt to fool, experienced people like Budd Hopkins, John Mack, David Jacobs or Ray Fowler are, in time, discovered and exposed. I'm fairly sure that one or two of em has managed to sneak one past the goalie now and again. But, for the most part, the people I met were pretty credible and in some cases fairly accomplished individuals. Either academically or in terms of the positions they held. Contrary to what most people would assume, the ratio is tipped toward the more credible and sound individuals with the obvious, or in some cases, not so obvious, whacko's being in the minority. The only qualification I would make to my statement is; Budd had already screened/interviewed all the individuals I eventually had an opportunity to meet. There is a core of cases that beg for closer examination. Cases involving rational, credible and reputable people who have had extraordinary experiences while fully awake and conscious. Experiences that in some instances left 'forensic evidence' behind. Be it ground trace evidence, multiple witnesses or the many physical manifestations on/in the body's of the abductees, there _is_ material still waiting to be properly examined/analyzed. I apologise for the long-winded response. The point is, Will and I are your 'average' abductee. At least among the ones I have met and had a chance interact with and observe. I'll bet the farm that Will feels the same way, that we are not unique in any way from a great many of our peers. Multiply Will and myself by many thousands of times, spread out all over the globe, and you start to get an inkling of the enormity of what has happened. So far... because everyone insists that "it must be something other than what we are reporting," the perpetrators of these heinous personal violations have gotten away with it -clean.- We yelled for help, but the townsfolk sat back and allowed the wolves to eat us - alive. Peter wrote: >But no one is saying that people with aware sleep paralysis, or >even with more serious sleep disorders are irrational or >mentally ill. They are normal people having unusual and (at >least to them and much of the general public) anomalous >experiences. Of course, and that is perfectly reasonable. The problem I have with "sleep paralysis" is that the proponents of the theory apply it liberally, blanket style, to all abduction reports. Like A.D.D. (one of the most over-diagnosed and prescribed for disorders to come along in recent time,) true 'sleep paralysis' as a _long_term_ condition is discovered and diagnosed early on. I also think that like ADD, it's not quite as common a disorder as some would have us all believe. For the most part, Sleep Paralysis is just a convenient way to explain away an annoying, frightening, troubling thing. In Clancy's case, to make a 'name' for herself now that she's out of school. She had strong motivation too! Do you have any idea how many psych majors are pumping gas now-a-days? <lol> The 'better' abduction cases involve people who were wide awake when 'something' involving UFOs and their occupants happened. Cases that sleep paralysis had absolutely nothing to do with it. Until someone can explain those cases away, we're all still stuck chasing our tails looking for answers.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: An Open Question To The List - Renaud From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:29:11 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:18:59 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Renaud >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:11:08 EDT >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >>Subject: An Open Question To The List >>On Tuesday, June 24, 1947, Kenneth Arnold sighted nine disk- >>shaped objects while flying near Mount Rainier, Washington. >>Today, Monday, August 15, 2005, is 58 years, 1 month, and 22 >>days - or if you wish, 21,237 days - later. Ergo, the 'modern >>era' of Ufology is approaching its sixth decade. ><snip> >>And what does Ufology have to offer? Unprovable reports of >>people seeing lingering lights over Louisville and darting disks >>over Dallas. Listfolks, if Ufology is ever going to be taken >>seriously by the public, it will require something far more >>substantial and credible than it has offered to date. >>So, who has a list of 58 facts? >Hi Bob, I'll stand back a bit and let the veteran researchers >answer you in full, but there are two points I must put a light >on. >First is Kenneth Arnold's original report you'll need to re- >study as you're missing or confused about his data. He didn't >see disc shaped objects. Matter of fact his true account is >something that many don't focus on. I think a quick glance at >his account in his own words will raise your eyebrows. I just lifted the phrase from the first website that showed up on Google. The point was the date. >Second, there's evidence and proof of such overwhelming >proportions that it's not even worth debating. >The problem is two-fold in getting this evidence and proof to >the average Joe and Jane. Assuming the truth of the first sentence, the second hits the nail squarely. >Foremost being no mainstream news service nor scientific body >nor government representatives will even sit down and revue the >evidence and proof. They run away faster than a jack rabbit in a >high wind. They'll run stories, visit events, and character >assassinate, data invalidate, and go through hoops to hide and >stonewall but to date no fair and square professional >examination has been done. Inasmuch as Ufology has a reputation (deserved or not) for being a watering hole for nutcases, it is facing an uphill struggle of almost Sisyphean proportions. Any attempt to legitimize it will result in exhaustive and rigorous scientific investigation and analysis. I suspect that what we consider rock-solid evidence will be in for multiple passes through the gauntlet, and not much will survive the ordeal. E.g., I've been looking over what I can find on Ted Phillips' Physical Trace Catalogue (which is apparently not for sale nor available for online study). From what I read, the catalog is plagued with difficulties. I quote this from Project1947.com: "This summary is based on only a partial listing of the catalogue as many of Phillips' cases appear extremely dubious in nature. Cases from the early 1950s are particularly unreliable because many of the early UFO books were written by people who automatically assumed that they were describing encounters with alien spaceships. Jenny Randles tells me that cases reported in the "hysterical" Spanish and South American media should be treated even more skeptically because these cases were often complete fabrications! Furthermore many of the early cases have no proper source, e.g. Phillips quotes Vallee describing cases which appear to have been anecdotally reported to Vallee. This means that we often have no idea whether or not a specific case was investigated by anyone, let alone whether it was a contemporary investigation or whether the investigator was in any sense someone capable of undertaking an objective scientific evaluation." http://www.project1947.com/phillips.htm >Also, evidence and proof that has been gathered either isn't >presented properly or has too much 'dirty data', data that's >irrelevant. Much like talk show hosts I've noticed in the >paranormal/conspiracy arena as well as the political arena that >they'll speculate and hyper-speculate and analogise and won't >let a scientist or witness get a word in edgewise, thus confusing >the layman even more. Presenters on the other hand often just >blabber on about an hour when they only have 1 minute of hard >data. >It'll clear up eventually though. The truth might not take the >shape and form of what one would expect so when the truth be >told, don't say we didn't warn ya. :) Lest anyone misjudge me, I'm a firm believer in the existence and activity of "manned" (or at least "creatured") vehicles of non-terrestrial origin. Nothing would please me more than to have one land on the Mall in Washington, or on the 50-yard line of the Superbowl during the half-time piffle (we might escape recurrences of certain behavior unbecoming a family show). Or, if the aliens want to do us a great favor, they could death-ray the idiots in Times Square on New Year's Eve. My point is that unless the "visitors" decide to cooperate and make their presence known beyond dispute, all Ufology has as evidence is unverifiable stories, questionable photographs, and a PoV that Earth is under surveillance by someone of unidentified origin for unknown purposes. That, unfortunately, won't cut it "out there". It will take more than is available at present to breach the fedgov/media barrier that you cited above, and what is presented as evidence will be subjected to intense
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: An Open Question To The List - Renaud From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:20:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:20:56 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Renaud >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:35:34 -0300 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >>Subject: An Open Question To The List >>So, who has a list of 58 facts? >Bob, it sounds like you have been too lazy to do your own homework. And it sounds like you didn't read the post very carefully. I asked for "58 scientific facts... cold, hard, indisputable facts." The kind of facts that can survive the blasting that they will receive if they are offered to the public. The kind of facts that don't require a suspension of common sense and logic. The kind of facts that stand on their own and defy anyone to disprove them. If you have such facts, why are they not universally accepted? The excuse that the government is suppressing them rings very hollow. It's a rationalization. This is the Information Age. The medium that makes the List possible has opened the portals to anyone to express anything, and the government can't do a bloody thing about it. Might I suggest that your "facts" don't survive the acid tests precisely because they cannot meet the minimum scientific standards. It's one thing to be an authority on nuclear physics and quite another to provide similar expertise on a subject for which the testable, falsifiable evidence is quite close to zero. As for homework, my folder for UFOs and saucers is 2.85 gigabytes, of which at most 20% is graphics. And there are another 50 megs waiting to be filed. The info runs the gamut from Ashtar to contactees to MUFON to CSICOP - even some of your stuff. So please don't make assumptions.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: 1970 Australian Tanami Desert Sighting - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:48:06 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:24:30 -0400 Subject: Re: 1970 Australian Tanami Desert Sighting - Hatch >From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:32:30 +1000 >Subject: 1970 Australian Tanami Desert Sighting >UFO Sighting 1970 Tanami Desert Northern Territory Reported >2005 by Mr R Hunt >Date: August 1970 Location: Mongrel Downs Station near Western >Australia border half-way between Alice Springs & Darwin >Names have been witheld by request. Three very highly educated >and qualified people. >A Geophysicist and two Geologists, all involved in Mineral >Exploration and Mapping, employed by a mining company in Tennant >Creek working in the Tanami Desert. >One of the witnesses has since gone on to become a member of >parliament in Western Australia. >Partial report only - more at web page, plus images. >Land marks - Granite & Rabbit Flats Northern territory. At the >time of the sighting we were on a property called Mongrel Downs >Station close to the western Australian boarder. At the time of >the sighting we stopped our two land-rovers at a location known >as the Three Officers Hill, which are several hundred feet high >in another-wise flat landscape for virtually hundreds of miles. >http://www.auforn.com/tanami-UFO.html <snip> Hi Diane: Oooh! That one looks like a goodie. I like cases out in the middle of nowhere. One minor quibble about the location. I found Mongrel Downs OK at 129:43E - 20:35S, close to the border of Western Australia state. I would not describe that as being halfway between Alice Springs and Darwin though. The road between those two places runs easily 260 miles to the east of Mongrel Downs as the crow flies. The web page you kindly provided has a lot more, including time of day (1500 hours). I'm a bit puzzled with the statement that the observers were facing North, with the Sun just behind them (affording a good view). Maybe they meant to say facing South, or were mis-quoted. That happens all the time. The Sun would have been in the northern sky at that time of year, and time of day .. anywhere from 329 to 350 degrees of azimuth say, depending on the day of the month in August 1970, which sadly is not given.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 15 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:51:31 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:25:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Clark >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:18:54 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:59:20 +1000 >>Subject: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >We only have Koury and his wife's word that this hair came in any anomalous way. How many private detectives have you hired to check into his life and character? Congratulations, Peter. You have just proved that you are at heart a fascist.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Harvard To Explore Origins Of Life From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:06:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:06:35 -0400 Subject: Harvard To Explore Origins Of Life Source: CNN - Science & Space http://tinyurl.com/a7sw5 Monday, August 15 Harvard To Explore Origins Of Life CAMBRIDGE, Massachusetts (AP) -- Harvard University is joining the long-running debate over the theory of evolution by launching a research project to study how life began. The team of researchers will receive $1 million in funding annually from Harvard over the next few years. The project begins with an admission that some mysteries about life's origins cannot be explained. "My expectation is that we will be able to reduce this to a very simple series of logical events that could have taken place with no divine intervention," said David R. Liu, a professor of chemistry and chemical biology at Harvard. The "Origins of Life in the Universe Initiative" is still in its early stages, scientists told the Boston Sunday Globe. Harvard has told the research team to make plans for adding faculty members and a collection of multimillion-dollar facilities. Evolution is a fundamental scientific theory that species evolved over millions of years. It has been standard in most public school science texts for decades but recently re-emerged in the spotlight as communities and some states debated whether school children should also be taught about creationism or intelligent design. The theory of intelligent design says life on earth is too complex to have developed through evolution, implying that a higher power must have had a hand in creation. Harvard has not been seen as a leader in origins of life research, but the university's vast resources could change that perception.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? - Harrison From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:57:54 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:08:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? - Harrison >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:18:54 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:59:20 +1000 >>Subject: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>I thought List readers might be interested in my musings on this >>theme from my "blog": >>http://theozfiles.blogspot.com ><snip> >>The Peter Khoury alien abduction milieu, which is presented as a >>detailed case study in my book "HAIR of the ALIEN", represents a >>potent example of what the Clancy/McNally research fails to >>address - abduction cases that are clearly and consciously >>recollected, with compelling physical evidence that appears to >>support their legitimacy. >Bill. Have proven beyond doubt that a) this hair comes straight >from a human body and not say a wig made of human hair, b) that >it is a pubic hair and not say a head hair, c) that it >definately a woman's hair. >For the sake of argument granting all three of the those >suppositions, what is so anomalous about an Australian woman of >predominately Irish family background having a Chinese maternal >ancestor. This woman's mothers, mothers, mothers, mother's etc >etc mother came from China, who knows how many generations back. What is so anomalous? Peter its not just the hair, but more so how the hair came be wrapped around Peters penis after he remembered a naked women straddled him in his bedroom while he lay on his bed. >We only have Koury and his wife's word that this hair came in >any anomalous way. How many private detectives have you hired to >check into his life and character? Peter are you the same Peter who wrote Somewhere A Child Is Crying? About child satanic abuse? http://users.cybercity.dk/~ccc44406/smwane/magonia.htm ******************************************** Regards Diane Harrison The Australian UFO Research Network http://www.auforn.com P.O Box 738 Beaudesert, 4285 Australia.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: Billy Meier Again - Deardorff From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:12:31 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:10:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Billy Meier Again - Deardorff >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:33:30 EDT >Subject: Billy Meier Again >I can't help it. I keep getting drawn back into those Billy >Meier case studies. >Last night on Coast To Coast AM with Art Bell they re-broadcast >an interview Art did with Meier's official U.S. envoy. >Art hit him with the hard-nosed questions without the ridiculous >speculative nonsense of late with questions like "Do aliens >have their own Twilight Zone TV programs?" that interfere with >the data stream. >Art just hit it with real old fashioned newsmanship. >As pressed as Michael Horn, Meier's envoy was, he did flounder a >bit but responded properly when Art put the goods to him. >I've yet to see the 'final final final' photo analysis on the >Meier pics and films and with today's top flight computers and >programs that shouldn't be a problem. Should take all of a few >days to prove whether the objects are real in their space and of >dimensions and weight as suggested by distance etc. Why this >isn't done is beyond me. >It's a simple case of either the pics and vids are real or >they're not. In the meantime there're these 'space brother' >messages that I hate because as far as I'm concerned if there >isn't a messenger to interview, then there ain't no message. >We need to put this to rest. Meier's stories and evidence are >proof positive or they're not. To delay is a crime on two >fronts: >Meier is the most unique and priviledge human since Biblical >times or he's the best con man since PT Barnum and then some. >Far too many paranormal mysteries drag on and on with no where >near as much evidence as the Meier people have produced so >what's with the long dragged out revelation? >Meier's team has some awesome evidence. Just awesome and aren't >given their due or don't want their due. >Meier's team has an overwhelming amount of physical evidence >and witnesses. Can't beat them apples! >If you didn't listen to last night's C2C show 8/14/05 then I >would highly suggest doing so. Hello Greg, If ebk doesn't mind having this discussed a bit on this List, we could do that, since I've been looking into it since 1980. My main findings on the UFO side of it are in: www.tjresearch.info/ufology.htm www.tjresearch.info/moretree.htm www.tjresearch.info/bachtel.htm www.tjresearch.info/hasenbol.htm www.tjresearch.info/BillyYes.htm www.tjresearch.info/denial.htm Along the way there I've had to refute Korff's claims where relevant. There's some pretty definitive photo evidence there that doesn't require the originals to be analyzed to draw firm conclusions. In the bachtel.htm file, e.g., frames of the video of the movie-film are examined in which: (a) the UFO or beamship jumped from one place to another, and the craft shows up in both places at once in one frame; and (b) seconds later the craft moved until a small fraction of it was apparently eclipsed behind the brow of the hill, a very considerable distance away.. In the BillyYes.htm file I've presented the occasion in which the craft oscillated just above a large tree in the distance (or above a 3-ft tree some 50-ft away from the camera if a model had been involved). In some of these instances it might be argued that it just might have been a hoax if 2 or 3 hoaxer-collaborators were involved and other considerations ignored; but no collaborators have been found after intensive searching in the late '70s and the '80s, and none have come forward to claim credit and show how they did it. The witness testimony is very solid and extensive, along with attestations by those who know Meier best that he's sincere and not one who would knowingly deceive. My web pages on that are at: www.tjresearch.info/witnessa.htm and www.tjresearch.info/witness.htm . The rest of my website is concerned with the document that Billy and an ex-priest friend were prompted to discover back in 1963 in Jerusalem.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Bring Your Best UFO Evidence/Proof From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:13:21 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:11:43 -0400 Subject: Bring Your Best UFO Evidence/Proof I was thinking after reading several recent posts about evidence/proof and history. With Mr. Klass gone I'm sure a new crop of debunkers will arise. We should be ready for them. May I be so bold as to suggest each researcher have their best evidence/proof at the ready in a presentable format that can be disseminated at push button expediency. What I'm trying to say is next time some skeptibunker on a talk show spouts off that " yeah, well where's the proof ", one of you can push a button that pulls in all the no nonsense raw data with pro conclusions necessary. That should keep them busy for several years reading through all the data. Many of you have books, videos, lecture transcripts etc. but for a person to purchase and search for them all could take weeks. If in allegiance, mayhaps the press folks here to lay out what is presentable a comprehensive hard data presentation could be gleaned at the ready, a sort of 'special report presentation'. We should all think in terms of a news network. I know, I've worked with several. Instead of arguing let's start with a fact file of our respective research and our conclusions. Of course some files will be larger than others but for starters just a five page presentation of whom we are, what we do, how long we've been at it. That way each area from optics to trace cases, to interviews can be catalogued easy access Could cut down on a lot of time and it would be a briefcase each of us could fire off to those too lazy or too unaware of this field of study. That'd separate the chaff from the wheat of the curious as if they're too lazy or too busy to study they don't need to enter this realm at all. You'ld be easy and comforted to know that instead of wasting your time with long winded debates that you could turn to that newbie, debunker, researcher and say: "Hold on, let's cut to the chase and look at the 'Comprehnsive Introductory File' of collected facts. An easy to read 100 page or so file on web or in print. If you can understand it, we can talk from there." Then you could be off to the golf course til they finish reading it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder - Pope From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 03:54:54 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:13:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder - Pope >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:02:14 +0100 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 20:06:26 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:25:33 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >>>Thanks for confirming that there was never any such thing as >>>the British Government's 'UFO Project'. >>I confirmed no such thing. If you re-read the above answer >>you'll see that what I actually said was there was no formal >>title, along the lines of Project Blue Book, and that the >>matter of what to call the MOD's UFO investigations is therefore >>a matter of personal preference. The MOD has been researching >>and investigating UFO sightings since the Fifties, as anybody >>who has studied the declassified files at the National Archives >>can tell you. For me, using the word "project" to describe this >>work seems appropriate. But if you want to use another term, >>John, then that's entirely your business. >Thanks for confirming again that there was never any such thing >as the British Government's 'UFO Project', just a variety of ad- >hoc investigations as the need arose. If you say so, John. Meanwhile, I take great issue with your repeated use of the word "magazine" to describe Magonia. To me this is a serious exaggeration which cannot go unchallenged. It seems to me that what you have is an ad hoc publication comprising empty polemic and little more. You may have edited the thing for years, but I can assure List Members that I know _far_ more about it than
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: Sandow On Klass - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:13:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:16:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Sandow On Klass - Sandow >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:46:44 -0300 >Subject: Re: Sandow On Klass >On the Larry King show with Dave Jacobs, he was asked his >opinion of Jacob's new book about abductions and claimed that >all the people had mental health problems, despite his not >being a mental health professional, and that the introduction >was written by John Mack who was. Part way through the show >when asked directly by Larry if he had read the book. He said "No". >On a different show Kevin Randle asked how many of the >Roswell witnesses he had interviewed. He mumbled about having >talked to many UFO witnesses. Kevin pushed him "Roswell >witnesses". "None" Stan, thanks for posting this. It reminds of a precious moment in my one conversation with Phil. He insisted, as he often had, in person, in the media, and in print, that abductees were "little nobodies" who invented their abduction stories to get on TV. Or at least were happy to use those stories to get on TV. I said that didn't seem to describe most of the abductees I'd met, who didn't want any publicity of any kind, and mostly wouldn't even consider a TV appearance. I asked Phil if he'd actually met any abductees. "Oh, yes," he said. "I've met the abductees I've appeared with on TV." You couldn't make this stuff up. To Dick and Jerry I can only say, yes, I was generous about Phil. Partly because he just died, partly because I wanted to be careful, and only write about things I'd seen for myself, first hand. He certainly could be ugly about women. I did see some of that. Again, I could be generous, and say, "Well, he's from another generation." But some of his remarks really pushed the boundaries pretty far. My girlfriend of that time met him briefly, and - when her mere presence, before she'd spoken so much as a word, seemed to set him off talking crudely about sex - was thoroughly offended. (And no, neither she nor I are even
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: An Open Question To The List - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:26:22 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:36:26 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Ledger >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:43:56 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:50:20 -0300 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul>To: >>><ufoupdates.nul>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 >>>09:53:01 -0400 Subject: An Open Question To The List ><snip> >>>And what does Ufology have to offer? Unprovable reports of >>>people seeing lingering lights over Louisville and >>>darting disks over Dallas. Listfolks, if Ufology is ever >>>going to be taken seriously by the public, it will require >>>something far more substantial and credible than it has >>>offered to date. >>>So, who has a list of 58 facts? >>Bob, >>Go and do research on your own for the next ten years and >>then come back and ask these questions. >Will you be here when I return? And what will I find that >would be convincing to people to whom Ufology is a >pseudoscience? I hope so, but I'll be 70. And how the hell should I know. >>As for the sophisticated, technically inclined public you >>are referring to go to your nearest bookstore and look at >>the paranormal section. What do you see? Books on tarot card >>reading, mediums, ghosts, channelling, astrology and esp, >>etc. There are hundreds of them. >Are the people who read those things the ones that you would >want to interest, or is it more likely that they are the only >ones that would be interested? The perception of Ufology >amongst those who aren't "into" that genre is not positive. When I typed that paragraph I realized that I would be open to a counter argument because that's the way these arguments go. but I thought, what the heck, let's see if he goes for the easy one. And you did. >>Check the fall lineup on TV and see the number of new shows >>echoing Medium but that will deal with the above mentioned. >>That's your technically inclined public. >I haven't wasted time with the tube since the second season of >X-Files, so I have no clue about what passes for TV entertainment >these days. Again, however, you miss (or evade) >the point. Well it's comforting to know you are not a couch potato. I wasn't evading anything so I guess I go for option one-I missed. >>The public uses technology but most of them don't have a >>clue as to how it works. >However, they DO know that it _does_ work because they've seen >its results, and what can be done with it. One doesn't need >to understand the technology of CGI, e.g., to know that it has >made extremely convincing fakes quite simple to manufacture. >Ergo, what could you as a ufologist present that would impress >them? Why should I try to impress them? What we do is put it out there and let them look at it. If they are impressed, fine. If not, fine. >>Incidentally, I could pose the same question about cancer >>research times the tens of billions of dollars sunk into the >>research of same with little return on the investment. >That's a red herring. IAC, cancer research has tremendous >importance to a world where one in six people contract cancer. >That relevance to the public is not shared by people who research >UFOs. It's not a red herring, it's a fact. There has been a lot of misdirection of funds where the cure for cancer is concerned and much slight of hand by the drug corporations. It's big business, profitable business but the bottom line is, though cancer research is heavily funded, research has come up with relatively little. many people have seen cancer, reported it, described it and been frightened by it but know one really knows where it comes from or how the major diseases can be cured. >>If you don't know Bob, then you haven't been looking very >>hard. >That's why I've been "reading the mail" on the List, directly >since July of 2004 and via the website for a lot longer than >that. I've accumulated a lot of stuff on the subject. And to >be very frank, sir, I've found little that excites me about >the future of Ufology in its present state of enervation. >Inspire me. For what reason? Are you bored? Bob, if you find us less than cooperative or "inspired" by what you have written to this List it's because we go through this at least a couple of times a year with people who want us to prove to them that they should be "impressed". Most of us just don't have the time or more succincntly, don't care. Give us something to argue about regarding a specific case but spare us the need to start you in kindergarten and work you through to high school. Finally, what I don't get is if you are not interested or have not had your curiosity piqued, why are you writing in to this List? What's in for you? Is it that you saw the poster on Mulder's wall and "you want to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:25:07 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:38:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo - Reynolds >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:52:16 -0500 >Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:36:40 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Contactee Taboo ><snip> >The contactee era is interesting; it really is. >>But what it has to do with UFOs in a scientific way is what is >>being derided by me and others (Jerry Clark, Richard Hall). >>One can read about Adamski and the other 50s boys but one >>should not equate their fanciful tales with reality. >>The messages they got from their space brethren is nice and >>comforting generally, like that of Jesus and other avatars, but >>it's only a message, derived from who-can-really-say. >Well, actually, we can say. It has been said, in a number of >papers in the literature of the sociology of religion. James R. >Lewis has edited several books on the sources of the contactee >movement and message. In fact, I have a paper in an upcoming >anthology of his from Syracuse University Press (on Dorothy >Mart/Sister Thedra's odyssey of space contacts and occult >pilgrimages). >But the best one-stop source of documentation for the origins of >the contactee message/theology is by the late David Stupple (who >was a colleague of Westrum and Truzzi in the Eastern Michigan >University sociology department). This paper was published >posthumously in JUFOS, available from CUFOS. The precise >citation is >"Historical Links Between the Occult and Flying Saucers." >Journal of UFO Studies 5 (n.s., 1994): 92-108. >As have others, Stupple traces contactee lore to its roots in >19th-Century occultism. And Jerry, your erudition in this is a good example, an excellent example actually, of how Listers and ufologists generally should approach a topic: by a serious research of it. That the contactee message is clarified and understood by the works you cite should lead newbies and some of us not-so-newbie to pursue their beliefs and understanding by reading and studying and more reading. This will inevitably provide ufology with scholars, like you, and raise the subject matter to a needed higher level.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:35:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:42:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - If one really wants to understand a possible explanation for abductions, one that confirms a reality older than most others, then one should peruse the Upanishads and Vedanta Sutras of Badarayana. The sleep that accompanies Atman is the waking sleep of abductees. [SeeBrihadaranyaka Upanishad II.i.16] The piercings of abductees is recounted in the beginning of the Upanishad of the Tandins.and particularly the Upanishad of the Atharvanikas. The beings who interact with those abducted are clarified in Vedic scripture: Khandogya. Upanishad I, 6,6 ff. The experience, by way of the two forms of Brahman [II.iii.2], account for the disparity in reconciling the abduction episodes with reality, especially by those immersed in the Western cultures or traditions. If Hindu followers have an experience likened to that of Westerners who think they have been abducted, the Hindi know it to be a transcendent event, more real than reality, and don t question it. However, the Western mind is not open to the transcendence, and thus it is formulated as an alien kidnapping or medical survey by an alien species. It behooves ufologists to pursue the quasi-religious aspect of abductions, but not in the context of Western religions but that of the sub-continent. And as heavy a scholarly commitment as that might require, it could be necessary in order to make sense of alien abductions, which are obscure to those abducted, but relevant in some way to their genetic or psychological make-up, even though they have no
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: An Open Question To The List - Reynolds From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:43:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:24:26 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Reynolds >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:31:02 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:56:37 -0500 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List ><snip> >>You're just baiting the List, right? To liven up a dull life? >Oh, my yes. You cannot fathom how empty and meaningless my life >is without your dazzling wit and wisdom. >Speaking of dull lives, my saved List files from 10/1/2004 to >today shows 159 instances of "Reynolds" in the subject line, and >an indeterminate number of unidentified threads that you >started. So do y'all have a life beyond the List?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: 1970 Australian Tanami Desert Sighting - From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:28:50 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:27:33 -0400 Subject: Re: 1970 Australian Tanami Desert Sighting - >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:48:06 -0700 >Subject: Re: 1970 Australian Tanami Desert Sighting >>From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:32:30 +1000 >>Subject: 1970 Australian Tanami Desert Sighting >>UFO Sighting 1970 Tanami Desert Northern Territory Reported >>2005 by Mr R Hunt >>Date: August 1970 Location: Mongrel Downs Station near Western >>Australia border half-way between Alice Springs & Darwin >>Names have been witheld by request. Three very highly educated >>and qualified people. >>A Geophysicist and two Geologists, all involved in Mineral >>Exploration and Mapping, employed by a mining company in Tennant >>Creek working in the Tanami Desert. >>One of the witnesses has since gone on to become a member of >>parliament in Western Australia. >>Partial report only - more at web page, plus images. >>Land marks - Granite & Rabbit Flats Northern territory. At the >>time of the sighting we were on a property called Mongrel Downs >>Station close to the western Australian boarder. At the time of >>the sighting we stopped our two land-rovers at a location known >>as the Three Officers Hill, which are several hundred feet high >>in another-wise flat landscape for virtually hundreds of miles. >>http://www.auforn.com/tanami-UFO.html ><snip> Hi Larry >Oooh! That one looks like a goodie. I like cases out in the >middle of nowhere. I have a few more like this one Larry. I will keep you posted. >One minor quibble about the location. I found Mongrel Downs OK >at 129:43E - 20:35S, close to the border of Western Australia >state. I would not describe that as being halfway between Alice >Springs and Darwin though. Rabbit Flats is the location of the sighting Mongrel Downs was the property the guys stayed at on occasions. You have to go through Mongrel downs to get to Rabbit flats R told me. I've had trouble finding 3 officers Hill on the map? how did you go Larry.? >The road between those two places >runs easily 260 miles to the east of Mongrel Downs as the crow >flies. >The web page you kindly provided has a lot more, including time >of day (1500 hours). >I'm a bit puzzled with the statement that the observers were >facing North, with the Sun just behind them (affording a good >view). Maybe they meant to say facing South, or were mis-quoted. >That happens all the time. The report states: "From our position we were looking north the UFOs traveled West to East at low speed." I guess what R was trying to say, when they got to the top of 3 officers Hill they were looking north and the object crossed their field of view, the objects were traveling West to East. >The Sun would have been in the northern sky at that time of >year, and time of day .. anywhere from 329 to 350 degrees of >azimuth say, depending on the day of the month in August 1970, >which sadly is not given. I know Larry. Shame he couldn't remember the day. Maybe when he thinks a little more about the sighting he might come up with the day, R is 70 years young ;) >Best wishes >- Larry Hatch Thanks Larry ******************************************** Regards Diane Harrison The Australian UFO Research Network http://www.auforn.com P.O Box 738 Beaudesert, 4285 Australia.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: The Subject Of UFOs On Larry King Wednesday - From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:08:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:29:19 -0400 Subject: Re: The Subject Of UFOs On Larry King Wednesday - >From: Craig Beasley <fallingleaf.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 16:02:27 -0500 >Subject: Re: The Subject Of UFOs On Larry King Wednesday >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:04:36 -0400 >>Subject: The Subject Of UFOs On Larry King Wednesday >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 12:04:36 -0400 >>Subject: The Subject Of UFOs On Larry King Wednesday >>Larry King has been collecting information for a program to air >>Wednesday, which will be in response (at least in part) to the >>War of the Worlds movie. >>John Scheussler, Bud Hopkins, and Rob Swiatek are among those >>interviewed and we ll have to see where the CNN program goes >>with this. A lot of general UFO information has been collected >>and it will be interesting see how much is actually used. >Did anyone Tivo this show? Steven: I taped the show and also captured it to one of our computers. I can upload the large file (899 megs) by way of a service called SendThisFile... which notifies the recipient that the file waits for them on STF's servers. I uploaded the file to Stan Friedman and it took 15 hours to upload. But the download takes only as long as your dial-up or broadband takes for large files. If you'd like the file sent, drop me a line at rrrgroup.nul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: An Open Question To The List - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:40:11 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:36:22 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Boone >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:29:11 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:11:08 EDT >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >>>Subject: An Open Question To The List >>>On Tuesday, June 24, 1947, Kenneth Arnold sighted nine disk- >>>shaped objects while flying near Mount Rainier, Washington. >>>Today, Monday, August 15, 2005, is 58 years, 1 month, and 22 >>>days - or if you wish, 21,237 days - later. Ergo, the 'modern >>>era' of Ufology is approaching its sixth decade. >><snip> >>>And what does Ufology have to offer? Unprovable reports of >>>people seeing lingering lights over Louisville and darting disks >>>over Dallas. Listfolks, if Ufology is ever going to be taken >>>seriously by the public, it will require something far more >>>substantial and credible than it has offered to date. >>>So, who has a list of 58 facts? >>Hi Bob, I'll stand back a bit and let the veteran researchers >>answer you in full, but there are two points I must put a light >>on. >>First is Kenneth Arnold's original report you'll need to re- >>study as you're missing or confused about his data. He didn't >>see disc shaped objects. Matter of fact his true account is >>something that many don't focus on. I think a quick glance at >>his account in his own words will raise your eyebrows. >I just lifted the phrase from the first website that showed up >on Google. The point was the date. >>Second, there's evidence and proof of such overwhelming >>proportions that it's not even worth debating. >>The problem is two-fold in getting this evidence and proof to >>the average Joe and Jane. I don't think the average Joe and Jane need to be convinced. the polls already show that for over a decade if not several decades. 'We' the people already know because we work at those top bases or our relatives do and by now it's common knowledge. The problem again are the institutions we sponsor, elect, give authority to skirting around the issue and stonewalling and those of greed and ill intention who fear this data using means to quell any disclosure by general accepted dissemination. The mainstream sources have been compromised for decades. This past year or more has seen the top three anchormen either deposed or died or retired. Why? Because when all is said and done they just might one day muster that last dreg of integrity and blow the lid off. The issue of UFOs is the most secretive subject in U.S. history. It's ridiculous that something that has no merit has untold millions of dollars and personel devoted to it. >Assuming the truth of the first sentence, the second hits the >nail squarely. >>Foremost being no mainstream news service nor scientific body >>nor government representatives will even sit down and revue the >>evidence and proof. They run away faster than a jack rabbit in a >>high wind. They'll run stories, visit events, and character >>assassinate, data invalidate, and go through hoops to hide and >>stonewall but to date no fair and square professional >>examination has been done. >Inasmuch as Ufology has a reputation (deserved or not) for >being >a watering hole for nutcases, it is facing an uphill struggle of >almost Sisyphean proportions. Any attempt to legitimize it will >result in exhaustive and rigorous scientific investigation and >analysis. I suspect that what we consider rock-solid evidence >will be in for multiple passes through the gauntlet, and not >much will survive the ordeal. The only reason Ufology has that reputation is due to the irresponsibility and deliberate invalidation of the media. That started in the late 40's and snowballed during the 50's. It's the easiest way to curtail research. Embarrass people. People are social animals. They dwell on what others think of them. Doesn't matter if you know where fresh water is, if it's unpopular and the schoolyard bullies don't agree, then there ain't no fresh water. >E.g., I've been looking over what I can find on Ted Phillips' >Physical Trace Catalogue (which is apparently not for sale nor >available for online study). From what I read, the catalog is >plagued with difficulties. I quote this from Project1947.com: >"This summary is based on only a partial listing of the >catalogue as many of Phillips' cases appear extremely dubious >in >nature. Cases from the early 1950s are particularly unreliable >because many of the early UFO books were written by people >who >automatically assumed that they were describing encounters >with >alien spaceships. Jenny Randles tells me that cases reported in >the "hysterical" Spanish and South American media should be >treated even more skeptically because these cases were often >complete fabrications! Furthermore many of the early cases >have >no proper source, e.g. Phillips quotes Vallee describing cases >which appear to have been anecdotally reported to Vallee. This >means that we often have no idea whether or not a specific >case >was investigated by anyone, let alone whether it was a >contemporary investigation or whether the investigator was in >any sense someone capable of undertaking an objective >scientific >evaluation." >http://www.project1947.com/phillips.htm Mr. Phillips at least went out and did the research. I've got trace case data as I'm sure others do to. The problem with trace case data is all you can say is something happened to a soil or plant or animal sample that is out of the ordinary. It can't determine whether aliens landed or if leprechauns danced on it. We can say for sure if a sample was subjected to heat or cold or radiation etc. That's all. Now if that sample coincides with a sighting and photograph and witnesses it just bolsters the argument not concludes it. Traces are just that, traces. I recall one time a group sighting occured. Real hush hush stuff in New York State. Many people I know were involved. The next day I showed up with an investigator from the power company as it was said it was a power transformer explosion. Mind you, I'm there with the official whose job it is to determine what happened and he told me up front it wasn't a transformer explosion because the danged transformer was still there on the pole and it was his job to handle such matters. I got samples of some damaged foliage and building material and of course that black car with odd people in it shows up. We just stood there and laughed as they tried to invalidate us. Even the press said it was a transformer but no one asked the appointed official! All one can say is the material was subjected to electrical discharges that altered the materials. Surprisingly the organic materials have yet to decay or show signs of decay after over a decade or more. >>Also, evidence and proof that has been gathered either isn't >>presented properly or has too much 'dirty data', data that's >>irrelevant. Much like talk show hosts I've noticed in the >>paranormal/conspiracy arena as well as the political arena that >>they'll speculate and hyper-speculate and analogise and won't >>let a scientist or witness get a word in edgewise, thus confusing >>the layman even more. Presenters on the other hand often just >>blabber on about an hour when they only have 1 minute of hard >>data. >>It'll clear up eventually though. The truth might not take the >>shape and form of what one would expect so when the truth be >>told, don't say we didn't warn ya. :) >Lest anyone misjudge me, I'm a firm believer in the existence >and activity of "manned" (or at least "creatured") vehicles of >non-terrestrial origin. Nothing would please me more than to >have one land on the Mall in Washington, or on the 50-yard line >of the Superbowl during the half-time piffle (we might escape >recurrences of certain behavior unbecoming a family show). >Or, >if the aliens want to do us a great favor, they could death-ray >the idiots in Times Square on New Year's Eve. >My point is that unless the "visitors" decide to cooperate and >make their presence known beyond dispute, all Ufology has as >evidence is unverifiable stories, questionable photographs, and >a PoV that Earth is under surveillance by someone of >unidentified origin for unknown purposes. That, unfortunately, >won't cut it "out there". It will take more than is available at >present to breach the fedgov/media barrier that you cited >above, >and what is presented as evidence will be subjected to intense >and sustained scrutiny. As the old saying goes, "All it will >take is one confirmed case," but if it's not airtight, it will >be sliced, diced and pureed. >We can always hope. Bob, let me add something many researchers are not a want to explore: Mind Control. You'd be surprised how easy it is to bs people on a large scale. Alter their perceptions about themselves and their environment. Usually we call the most advanced of these attempts commercials. We all know how that burger commercial with the juicy pattie and special sauce makes one just bolt up and dash to the nearest fast food place. We've seen that bubbling beverage just draw us like hypnotized lemmings to the snack bar. People can be controlled. It's easy. Just watch a few episodes of the 'Jerry Springer Show' and you'll see the level of general intelligence of your average human neighbor. We're chimps with hyperactive imaginations and equally hyperactive libidos. According to statistics there are only 60 million or more people on this planet of 'genius' IQ. Most are in real estate. None are in the news business because the pay sucks so bad. So 1% of us are smart enough to know when to get the hell out of Dodge City when the bullets start flying and the other 99% are just waiting for the next tree branch to grow to swing from. See what you're up against?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: An Open Question To The List - Johnson From: Don Johnson <donjohnson.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:40:56 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Johnson >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >Subject: An Open Question To The List >On Tuesday, June 24, 1947, Kenneth Arnold sighted nine disk- >shaped objects while flying near Mount Rainier, Washington. >Today, Monday, August 15, 2005, is 58 years, 1 month, and 22 >days - or if you wish, 21,237 days - later. Ergo, the 'modern >era' of Ufology is approaching its sixth decade. >My question: ignoring contactees, abductees, Magonia, Phil >Klass, etcetera, what 58 scientific facts - one for each year - >about UFOs and aliens are known on 15 August 2005 that were not >known on 24 June 1947? I'm not referring to opinions, >hypotheses, assumptions, extrapolations, anecdotal evidence or >wild-arsed guesses, but to cold, hard, indisputable facts. >'Serious' Ufology prides itself on its objective, scientific >approach to the subject, and that's commendable. But what does >it have to show for nearly six decades of research, other than a >ton of paperwork, a gazillion fuzzy photos of lights or daylight >"disks", and endless internecine bickering and sniping? >IOW, what does Ufology have to offer that would recommend it to >the 21st century public? We have seen things on the silver >screen that would utterly convince our grandparents that they >were real. Anyone with a computer and Photoshop could produce >UFO imagery that would be very difficult to discredit as fakes. >The people of 2005 have become far more sophisticated about >technology and science, and about the ease with which fraud can >be perpetrated. >And what does Ufology have to offer? Unprovable reports of >people seeing lingering lights over Louisville and darting disks >over Dallas. Listfolks, if Ufology is ever going to be taken >seriously by the public, it will require something far more >substantial and credible than it has offered to date. >So, who has a list of 58 facts? Dear Bob: I think I established a strong statistical link between the size of UFOs, distance from UFOs, and the duration of UFO reports and the intensity of the vehicle ignition interference effect in CE- IIs. Although not proof of causality, and there are still those who will argue that there is no "proof" that cigarette smoking causes lung cancer, I think it establishes a strong claim that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: Explaining Memories of Martian Kidnappers - From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:36:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories of Martian Kidnappers - >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:58:43 -0400 >Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers <snip> >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:01:55 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers <snip> >Rich wrote: >>But then there are rational beings, John Velez and Will Bueche, >>among others, who don't appear to have quirks and report that >>they were not experiencing sleep paralysis or any other kind of... >I worked very closely with Budd Hopkins for just about six >years. It afforded me the unique opportunity to observe Budd >closely over a long time period, and to meet many of the >individuals he was working with. I'm sure Will had a similar >experience in his work/ time with John Mack. Without asking >Will, I know that he would confirm what I am about to say. >Among Budd's many 'clients' have been a few practicing >psychologists, police officers, high ranking military officers, >and other equally accomplished and credible individuals. Those >cases are mixed in with those of many other perfectly credible >people from all walks and 'strata' of life. Will and I are only >the more 'public' and 'accessible' of a surprisingly large >number of people who, for valid reasons involving family and >career, (among others,) will not expose themselves publicly. And >it's a shame too, because people get the impression that guys >like Will and I are an 'exception' of some kind, when in fact, >we are 'the general rule.' <snip> >I apologise for the long-winded response. The point is, Will >and I are your 'average' abductee. At least among the ones I >have met and had a chance interact with and observe. I'll bet >the farm that Will feels the same way, that we are not unique in >any way from a great many of our peers. Multiply Will and myself >by many thousands of times, spread out all over the globe, and >you start to get an inkling of the enormity of what has >happened. >So far... because everyone insists that "it must be something >other than what we are reporting," the perpetrators of these >heinous personal violations have gotten away with it _clean_. >We yelled for help, but the townsfolk sat back and allowed the >wolves to eat us - alive. John is right about the enormity of the experience. (The numbers may be dropping now, or at least may be harder to gauge, as it seems the tenor of the experiences has changed with "Gen Y" into something softer, maybe less noticeable - but that's for another discussion). I probably did not meet as many people (who had had experiences) as John did, owing to there being fewer gatherings in Cambridge (there were no support groups here in recent years), but I can tell you this: As I've been archiving Dr Mack's papers on behalf of his family (who I hasten to add will be keeping such materials under lock and key), I can't tell you how many authors and other correspondents who Dr Mack knew who would eventually drop him a letter saying "I've been meaning to tell you this for years but I just couldn't bring myself to..." and then they'd confess that they'd always known of an odd alien experience or two in their own life, perhaps something from their childhoods or young adulthood, which they simply couldn't broach, not even to someone open like him. I understand why they couldn't. Just because they knew Dr Mack doesn't mean they were living in an environment where they could allow themselves to speak out - because that requires a different setting than what our culture provides. I became aware, intellectually, of my experiences when I was about 21. But it wasn't until several years later when I found myself working in the office of Dr Mack (I was not a client of his), where the culture permitted such thoughts, that I was able to become emotionally close to the experiences. Knowing the experiences are real is one part of the process that a person takes, but one that people can keep secret for years. But the next part is much more difficult - knowing how you feel. That's the part that many people can't take. And it is why even friends of Mack wouldn't tell him about their experiences until they'd finally gathered up enough courage. Take away the cultural banishment of this subject, and you'd probably at last see an accurate reading of the enormous number of people who have had it. But with the culture of denial firmly in place, what we have are a few people who declared themselves - such as John (Velez) - who did so because they felt it was important, both to their own lives, and to the culture more generally. (Maybe that is a "quirk", Rich, to feel that it is important to tell the truth... it certainly does get people into trouble). >From these people we can extrapolate a bit, and get a sense that there were many individuals contacted, but we'll never know how many people have had these experiences until it becomes "ok" to have had them. Every time the culture gives the suggestion that it is "ok", such as when a film about aliens comes out, there is a sense of permission and some people speak out. But it doesn't hold. Today, the experiencers I know do not speak out. I know not to call any of them with media requests. They've had it. They've gone silent, intentionally. Because they did their part, and society f'd up. You know, some people still talk about the landing on the White House lawn option. But wasn't it more democratic, in a sense, that individuals were involved rather than organizations/governments? Regardless of whether you feel the motives were sinister or ambivalent or friendly, the fact is that our culture got a chance to respond to what actual members of the culture experienced. There was no middle man, it was direct contact. An entirely fair way for an "alien" (in the sense of "foreign") culture to provide an opportunity for our culture to respond/react. And how did we react? By saying it was probably just some folks imaginations. How pathetic. I'm a bit embarassed. But I hope that the experiencers who were involved in recurrent contact experiences managed to convey something to the beings even without the rest of the culture backing any of us up. Maybe this is why Generation Y seems to be having these less intrusive, more dreamy, almost psychic visitations now rather than the hard core physical visits that people went through before. Or maybe the beings just left, having done what they needed to do. I don't know. But I suspect we could have had far more if we'd had some help from our fellow humans. We probably could have made some
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: An Open Question To The List - Beasley From: J. Craig Beasley <fallingleaf.nul> Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:11:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:24:39 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Beasley >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:31:02 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:56:37 -0500 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >>>Subject: An Open Question To The List <snip> And the facts are quite credible when the barbarians could travel on foot and horseback from point A to point B. The argument fails utterly when contemplating the notion of aliens travelling dozens or hundreds of light years to get here and then being content to flit about in the sky or leave inconclusive physical traces. >><snip> Have you read the book Unconventional Flying Objects, by Paul Hill? It is a very good book that may be a primer of sorts for understanding what may be the general physics of UFO propulsion. It was written by a credible man with a serious and scientific mind, for an audience willing to enter into the math behind it. The funny thing is about it is that it REALLY does explain things in a way that sits squarely in known physics. Now the difference is, of course, that the source of propulsion is not something as simple as a monstrous GE turbofan of godly abilities, but rather something that we'll have to figure out. And I believe a human being will someday understand enough (or can copy enough) technology ad science to bridge our current gap. Until then, we do have a rather excellent characterization of what we DO need to aim at to gain understanding. I would submit that is science itself: Definitions leading to new conclusions upon which to build new systems, be they abstract or concrete. >>And it seems we have more "evidence" or UFOs or flying saucers, >>if you will, than we have of the incipient cause of the Dark >>Ages. >It's a typical red herring "argument". The issue is "flying >saucers", not Attila and his merry band of fun-loving >barbarians. Red Herring? Not at all, it is straight to the point. We have a huge database of sighting reports, photographs, artwork of both amateur and classical milieu, and physical data that we can exploit, much larger than the endless contemporary re-tellings of the most ancient histories. It is cogent to the point that preponderance, quality, and freshness of data means nothing if there is a cultural stigma in effect. We have the same kinds and veracity of data afforded to any other historical or forensic science, but we have the boat anchor of non-humans in the mix. Since it is not "humanity" that is posited by many ufologists to be at work with these things we see in the sky, there is a natural human tendency to shy away from the data. So, mentioning the relatively inferior data of other, more respected sciences is not at all out of line. We have NO funding, and little popular support, to chance down the facts to some sort of real application. In endorsed sciences, it is expected that even the best researchers will go down the bunny trails to dead ends. Ufology doesn't even get a chance to get out of the starting gate most of time, so we too churn a lot of same ideas around. It s excruciatingly hard to develop new data when the existing data is shrugged off by so many other scientists, logic be damned. >>And you think that ufologists are remiss in some way? >Did I say that? My point is that outside of the ufological >field, what credibility is there? And does it have the >wherewithal to come in out of the cold and become a respectable >field of endeavor? Or perhaps you prefer to see Ufology >consigned to email lists and the side shows of science. None of us, or at least those of us who are sane, want to continue to be benignly ignored or aggressively ridiculed, and certainly the sideshow gigs are maddening. However, these lists we are on are a strong communication medium, and mainstream science uses them to great effect. And non-mainstream stuff grows well when cultivated properly. Maybe that's what you're really looking for: what do we need to grow our data in to begat more and stronger data in the future? Let me give you an example of exactly that. In the book by Mr. Hill that I referred above, he describes two basic flight modes: Scout craft propulsion and Interstellar point-to-point travel. My take on my current single reading of the book gave me the impression that Hill had a much firmer grasp of the former versus the latter, though I think he was very likely on the right path with scout ships traveling as carried bu "motherships" to different planetary systems. That's fine. Just a little over a decade ago, a physicist by the name of Miguel Alcubierre posited the first real theory of warp physics. Substantial stuff, peer reviewed. Respected. The only problem was that the required energy was greater than that of the known universe. Oops. The man was a nut, right? Hmm. Maybe not. Fellow researchers were so intrigued that they picked up from where Dr. Alcubierre left off, and continued to refine his basic theories. In the space of the last decade, the energy requirements have come down, on the order of a planetary mass. Still a lot of joules to burn, to be sure, but in only a decade we have had some smart people work together ONLINE, quietly having bits and pieces of spacetime theory validated (or invalidated) via normal peer review. They have grouped together to work remotely with each other for private discussion and plotting, and published strategically those pieces they need to work their theories. Of course, HUMANS will be the users of the development of this science, and that I truly believe is where we stumble.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: An Open Question To The List - Morton From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 02:55:04 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:27:13 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Morton >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:20:04 -0400 >Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:20:56 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Renaud >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:35:34 -0300 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >>>Subject: An Open Question To The List >>>So, who has a list of 58 facts? >>Bob, it sounds like you have been too lazy to do your own >>homework. >And it sounds like you didn't read the post very carefully. I >asked for "58 scientific facts... cold, hard, indisputable >facts." The kind of facts that can survive the blasting that >they will receive if they are offered to the public. The kind of >facts that don't require a suspension of common sense and logic. >The kind of facts that stand on their own and defy anyone to >disprove them. If you have such facts, why are they not >universally accepted? >The excuse that the government is suppressing them rings very >hollow. It's a rationalization. This is the Information Age. The >medium that makes the List possible has opened the portals to >anyone to express anything, and the government can't do a bloody >thing about it. >Might I suggest that your "facts" don't survive the acid tests >precisely because they cannot meet the minimum scientific >standards. It's one thing to be an authority on nuclear physics >and quite another to provide similar expertise on a subject for >which the testable, falsifiable evidence is quite close to zero. >As for homework, my folder for UFOs and saucers is 2.85 >gigabytes, of which at most 20% is graphics. And there are >another 50 megs waiting to be filed. The info runs the gamut >from Ashtar to contactees to MUFON to CSICOP - even some of >your stuff. So please don't make assumptions. >Lastly, I'm not the one that needs convincing. The people out in >the real world are the ones that need to be reached. Go to it, >with my blessings. After all, your facts should sell themselves, >n'est-ce pas? Bob - Are you the new "kinder, gentler and smarter" Phil Klass, in spirit if not in person, arriving after his demise to do what he should have done? There's even a dash of irrationality and falsehood thrown in - perhaps as a preview of the Ghost of Christmas Future? While you make some good points, I wonder if you're simply doing what Klass was apparently doing all these years: Wasting the time of ufologists - unless, of course, they were moved to think harder about their evidence and tighten it up more and more, year after year. Not that I have any quarrel whatsoever with Friedman, Hall, Clark, etc. But if you're speaking of the field and its mission as you see it, your "58 points" may be a reasonable gauntlet. But Bob, with almost 3 gigabytes of UFO information on your
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:05:31 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:28:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:58:43 -0400 >Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >So far... because everyone insists that "it must be something >other than what we are reporting," the perpetrators of these >heinous personal violations have gotten away with it -clean.- >We yelled for help, but the townsfolk sat back and allowed the >wolves to eat us - alive. John, I'm interested in what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that there is some way in which it is possible to combat whatever it is that is perpetrating the abductions, and that it is possible for non-abductees ('the townsfolk'?) to assist in this? I have read some of Ann Druffel's writing on fighting back against abductions (indeed, published some in Magonia) and wonder if this is sort of thing you mean. What do you think is necessary for the perpetrators to be brought to book? I assume that first of all you will ask us to accept that what you are reporting is NOT "something other than what we are reporting", but after that, in what way can we ensure that the perpetrators do not 'get away with it'? I appreciate that you might find it suspicious that a noted pelicanist Magonian is asking this question, and may assume that I am only looking for some way to question your experiences. I assure you that I am not, and I really am interested in your comment, which seems counter to the defeatist attitudes of some other abductees and abduction researchers that there is no way
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: An Open Question To The List - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:52:26 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:30:15 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Dickenson >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:43:56 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:50:20 -0300 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >>>Subject: An Open Question To The List ><snip> >That's why I've been "reading the mail" on the List, directly >since July of 2004 and via the website for a lot longer than >that. I've accumulated a lot of stuff on the subject. And to be >very frank, sir, I've found little that excites me about the >future of Ufology in its present state of enervation. >Inspire me. Hi Bob, At this stage of human evolution we can't assess or review evidence impartially; each 'science' is a hierarchy of (self- selecting or even self-appointing) 'professors' each with favorite "theories" - and that includes Ufology. Max Planck said "The Old Theories only die out when the Old Professors die out" - 'cos - changing to military metaphor - generals always fight the preceeeding war. You probably know that "on the shoulders of giants" quote and realize it's not saying any one generation is wisest but that we can get new insights by building on - or demolishing - earlier work. So it's up to you - and each of us. Cheers Ray D PS - "things aren't what they seem" is a useful motto - RD
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Adamski And The USAF Report From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:24:39 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:33:03 -0400 Subject: Adamski And The USAF Report For those who may be interested I've gone through the book George Adamski The Untold Story, co-authored by Tim Good and Lou Zinsstag and pulled out a few interesting bits of information collected by Good that you might like to read. In this email I've included information relating to attempts to retrieve official UFO reports that might relate to the Adamski sighting at Desert Centre. For space reasons I've edited it while trying to retain as many of the relevant facts as possible. ----- On the 3rd August 1956, the US Air Technical Intelligence Centre, in reply to an enquiry from researcher Richard Ogden regarding Adamski's Desert Centre contact of 20 November 1952 (during which Adamski and the other six witnesses had said that Air Force planes were flying over the area at the time) said: 'In response to your letter of July 18, 1956, we are enclosing a summary of project Bluebook Special report No 14, which was released in October 1955. The full report statistically covers all reports up to that date, including a report by an Air Force pilot on November 20, 1952, from the general vicinity of Desert Centre, California.' Later Ogden wrote another letter requesting further information, but was told by Major T. J. Cormair, Jr., USAF Adjutant, that it was not Air Force policy to release details of its UFO investigations. As a result of his enquiries Richard Ogden was rewarded with a visit from the FBI. In August 1979 Good wrote to the CIA requesting the information that Ogden had vainly sought. He was then advised to write to the USAF or the National Archives. He then wrote to the U.S. Air Force Foreign Technology Division (formerly Air Technical Intelligence Center) at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Dayton, Ohio, and months later received their cursory reply which had been sent by surface mail, dated 27 September 1979: "Your letter dated 13 September 1979 requesting information on a UFO sighting is being returned as the records are not available." However, the information was finally obtained by Richard W. Heiden, an American researcher. Copied from microfilm relating to a teletype message concerning a sighting at Salton Sea, California on 20 November 1952: -UNIDENTIFIED OBJECT SEEN PILOT LOCKHEED AIRCRAFT B50 5626, ON A ROUND ROBIN FROM DAVIS MONTHAN. OBJECT SEEN AT 2005 MOUNTAIN TIME 10 MILES EAST OF SALTON SEA, ALTITUDE 16000 FEET. AIRCRAFT WAS ON A HEADING OF 275 DEGREES AND SIGHTED OBJECT AT 1100 O'CLOCK TO HIS POSITION. OBJECT WAS STATIONARY AND WAS CHANGING COLOR FROM WHITE TO RED TO GREEN. STARTED IN MOTION IN N.W. HEADING AND DISAPPEARED
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Adamski And The Straith Letter From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:32:25 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:34:58 -0400 Subject: Adamski And The Straith Letter More information from the book, George Adamski The Untold Story, by Tim Good and Lou Zinsstag. I hope you find it as interesting as I have. Sheryl ----- The notorious 'Straith Letter' sent to Adamski on 6 December 1957, was typed on official white-seal, blue-embossed paper, with the American eagle watermark and the Seal of State impressed. It was signed R E Straith, Cultural Exchange Committee, Department of State, Washington. The Cultural Exchange Committee was a department through which representatives of the United States obtained their visas for goodwill tours abroad. It's reproduced from the book here: "To Professor George Adamski My Dear Professor, For the time being let us consider this a personal letter and not to be construed as an official communication of the Department. I speak on behalf opf only a part of our people here in regard to the controversial matter of the UFO, but I might add that my group has been outspoken in its criticism of official policy. We have also criticized the self-assumed role of our Air Force in usurping the role of chief investigating agency on the UFO. Your own experiences will lead you to know already that the Department has done its own research and has been able to arrive at a number of sound consclusions. It will no doubt please you to know that the Department has on file a great deal of confirmatory evidence bearing out your own claims, which as both of us must realize, are controversial and have been disputed generally. While certainly the department cannot publicly confirm your experiences, it can I believe, with propriety, encourage your work and your communication of what you sincerely believe should be told to our American public. In the event you are in Washington I do hope that you will stop by for an informal talk. I expect to be away from Washington during the most of February, but should return by the last week in that month. Sincerely, R.E. Straith (Cultural Exchange Committee) RES/me" Before making Straith's letter public Adamski undertook a thorough investigation of the authenticity of the letter delaying it's release to his co-workers for well over a month. He was assured that Straith was an employee of the State Department, whose work was of such a nature that his name did not appear on any published lists of that Department. Britain's Flying Saucer Review was the first to publish the letter in their May/June 1958 issue. FSR wrote to Mr Straith at the State Department and received a reply dated 10 June 1958, which stated there was no one by that name connected to the Department, no division under the name Cultural Exchange Committee, and the department was investigating the possible misuse of official letterhead stationary. Adamski challenged the denial in an article in the June-July issue of FSR. One critic told Adamski that the letterhead upon which Straith wrote was turned out by 'tens of thousands', with the Seal of State impressed on the blank paper. Not so, commented Adamski. He admitted that when the seal is printed on the letterheads it would be done as one printing operation, with the imprint of the seal in the same colour ink as the letterhead - which in all communications Adamski had received where the seal was printed had been blue. But the Straith letter had the seal impressed in the paper, and it was not coloured. Furthermore, the State Department representative who visited Adamski admitted that the seal was never impressed upon blank paper. Gray Barker did a considerable amount of research into the Straith affair which he published in his Book of Adamski, and in a chapter devoted to the letter he describes how it had created reverberations in the world press. Even The Times of London ran a twelve-inch column on it. Various press representatives hounded the U.S. Embassy in London, who were obliged to issue an official statement denying the existence of both Straith and the Cultural Exchange Committee, and suggested that the letter was a hoax. Richard Ogden, who Timothy Good states did more research into the affair than anyone else, sent a registered letter to Mr Straith at the State Department, dated 31 August 1958. The returned receipt came back to him with a postmark of September 5, Washington 3, D. C., signed by someone who filled in Straith's name and after it assigned a building code to Straith - SA20. The man who signed it was a Mr M.N. Hart and Tomothy Good questions why the State department signed for a registered letter to a man who did not exist. It transpired that several (UFO) groups received official-type letters with a similar signature to Straith, although none bore the title Department of State, but one did have United States Information Agency. Gray Barker was investigated about the Straith letter by the FBI who were now searching for the Straith "hoaxer" but he was exonerated after subsequent investigation. Despite certain similarities between signatures none of the other letters were actually signed R.E. Straith. Only the Straith letter to Adamski was typed on white-seal, blue-embossed stationery, which was used by the Department of State in memos and letters to the President, ministers of foreign affairs and charges d'affairs. Richard Ogden pointed out that this type of stationery could only be found in the office of the Secretary of State, under lock and key, and only two people had access to it: The Secretary of State and the Undersecretary. As a postscript to his book on Adamski, Barker published an anonymous letter sent to the late researcher Ray Palmer in 1959, which stated: ...once and for all, I want to clear up the Straith matter. I am one of the former secretaries for the Cultural Exchange Committee. Mr Straith's main job is collecting UFO data from all foreign countries. Only a few people know this. He is supposed to act as clearing manager for artists, musicians, etc., between countries ... Mr Straith is supposed to be undercover. If by chance he is found out, people are told he is retired, and lives in this country or that country ... Ask any big singer who visited Europe about it (the Committee). They may or may not talk*".... *Conductor Andre Previn has since personally confirmed its existence to Timothy Good. The letter was written in a disguised hand, and was signed inevitably - 'Well-wisher'. Ray Palmer, incidentally, was far from being a supporter of Adamski, rather the contrary, which makes his testimony more valid. In November 1979 Lou Zinsstag and Timothy Good discussed the Straith letter with Carol Honey. At one time he told them he had no less than five letters from the State Department in his possession which proved conclusively that Straith existed, since they were all written before the famous letter was published. Unfortunately he could no longer produce them as many of his documents had been stolen. On one occasion Honey appeared on Channel 11 TV in Los Angeles with Adamski and held the original up to the camera. The following day a State Department representative from Los Angeles, as well as a CIA and FBI agent, called on Adamski at Palomar demanding the letter. Adamski had been shrewd enough to have it locked up in his attorney's safe in Beverly Hills, so there the agents went and insisted on seeing it. The following day they returned and complained that the attorney denied them access to the letter, and asked Adamski if he would give them a letter instructing the attorney to hand it over to them for examination. "I hired my attorney to advise me," replied Adamski smartly, "I don't advise my attorney." So back went the agents to the attorney, who finally agreed to accompany them to a laboratory
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: An Open Question To The List - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:52:18 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:38:00 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Lehmberg >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:43:56 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List <snip> >Inspire me. Science is a blessing if one 'really' follows data, and one cops to implication's larger views. If you know a trust for people who will tell you what they saw (?) though they, still and all, have quite a bit to lose? Folks like Jimmy Carter spring to mind for clearer reference, or Farrakhan all twisted in his rage; my brother and his wife have equal weight and they're more real - call it "anecdotal evidence"... be brave. I've boiled all the video that I've seen to twenty minutes (give or take some scary seconds to and fro), and what there is remaining is beyond the _strangest_ thing, and a 'teaser' for a guy who "wants to know." And forgetting all that video, I've chanced to watch the _sky_, and I've seen peculiar lights that don't make sense. The mainstream won't go near it, what's 'peculiar' is 'off limits', so I jump with _no_ pretension from the 'fence'. I can't escape these shadows that extend from 'circumstance', and I can't evade the _questions_ they propose. I can't avoid the lessons of the very, very old - as what they knew, and when they knew it, is _disclosed_. They wrote it pretty plainly - all the planets that we know. They left it in their records, stones, and seals. They named the belt of asteroids splitting Jupiter from Mars as the "bracelet for its star" - the real deal. Neptune and Uranus were identified as 'twins', plus the greenness, or the blueness of their hues. It's right there in the record that is treated as mere myth though it drips with all these references and clues. And this is just _beginning_ the historical account... of a story that just will not go away! Written in its annals are descriptions of the puzzle that if put together right would seize the day! They're woven in our culture, (why, they're selling what we buy!), but we do not know the *purpose* they suggest. It's like we have some "proctor" with assessments, checks, and tools, (so I wonder how we're doing on their test...). One might as well conduct themselves with this attitude employed: an admission that they're here, and (yes) quite close. Why not? If they are 'there', as it's admitted (and the mainstream says it's so?), then why not up a Klassic's dripping nose? The future yawns before us like the matchless depth of space, and the end is not for us, _as_yet_ to see. The potential for success (_as_ huge as glaring/gloating failure!) is a _treasure_ that is there for you and me. Some will whistle up excuses how they knew it all along - others wallow in their terror of defeat. Some will take a deep breath and adapt to what it is -quickly changing when they're thinking on their feet. That's the mood to change the world as grasp approaches reach. A hopeful contemplation - optimistic? _Acceleration's_ obvious in stunning leaps and bounds... ...it shall not be confined or pessimistic. It's you has been convinced, and rightly so, by your admission... that 'we' pretend there is _no_ evidence to find? You assume fidelity from those extant in charge... who lie and cheat and steal... chump us blind? You presume them forthright these elitist jealous lords, with the interest of the masses dear to heart? Then you demand from shadows what precludes a common sense, and few'd agree that's right or true or smart. alienview.nul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 16 Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:09:53 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:42:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - >From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:35:35 -0500 >Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >If one really wants to understand a possible explanation for >abductions, one that confirms a reality older than most others, >then one should peruse the Upanishads and Vedanta Sutras of >Badarayana. >The sleep that accompanies Atman is the waking sleep of >abductees. [SeeBrihadaranyaka Upanishad II.i.16] >The piercings of abductees is recounted in the beginning of the >Upanishad of the Tandins.and particularly the Upanishad of the >Atharvanikas. >The beings who interact with those abducted are clarified in >Vedic scripture: Khandogya. Upanishad I, 6,6 ff. >The experience, by way of the two forms of Brahman [II.iii.2], >account for the disparity in reconciling the abduction episodes >with reality, especially by those immersed in the Western >cultures or traditions. >If Hindu followers have an experience likened to that of >Westerners who think they have been abducted, the Hindi know it >to be a transcendent event, more real than reality, and don' t >question it. For many years it was a puzzle as to why India, the second most populated country in the world-after China, was seemingly void of UFO reports. It was posited by some that the reason might be as you have suggested above. Perhaps they are not as anomalous to the people of India as to the western mind.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: An Open Question To The List - Renaud From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:17:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:14:21 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Renaud >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:26:22 -0300 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:43:56 -0400 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:50:20 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul>To: >>>><ufoupdates.nul>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 >>>>09:53:01 -0400 Subject: An Open Question To The List <snip> >For what reason? Are you bored? Not at all. I have more than enough to keep me occupied 27 hours a day. The reason I subscribed to the List is to keep up on this one small aspect of the UFO "scene". As I've stated, my purpose in posting was to play the devil's advocate by noting that Ufology is, has been, and in all probability will continue to be a "fringe" field because of the public perception of the subject as the asylum for conspiracy theorists and screwballs. And my initial question was what Ufology has to offer in the form of evidence that will stand up to the scrutiny of the rigorous, objective investigation that will attend any effort to legitimize the subject. To those who have responded cordially, thank you. However, some replies impugned my intelligence (IQ twice tested at 160+) and questioned my knowledge. They reeked of self- important elitism that is unbecoming to serious researchers. And there were the school-related phrases such as "do your homework", and your own, "...start you in kindergarten and work you through to high school," which comment a few here doubtless thought to be immensely clever. I graduated 45 years ago. Terms pertaining to school children are therefore irrelevant, except perhaps to those functioning at that level. Reality time: some of the posts in the List are strikingly similar to what I've read on UFO-related message boards. There is the same "us vs them" mindset, the same Borgian group-think, and the same attribution of Ufology's public image to suppression by EEE-vill forces in high places. And then one wonders why those in positions of authority and in the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: An Open Question To The List - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:26:27 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:16:54 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Friedman >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:20:04 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:35:34 -0300 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >>>Subject: An Open Question To The List >>>So, who has a list of 58 facts? >>Bob, it sounds like you have been too lazy to do your own >homework. >And it sounds like you didn't read the post very carefully. I >asked for "58 scientific facts... cold, hard, indisputable >facts." The kind of facts that can survive the blasting that >they will receive if they are offered to the public. The kind of >facts that don't require a suspension of common sense and logic. >The kind of facts that stand on their own and defy anyone to >disprove them. If you have such facts, why are they not >universally accepted? Are you really saying I presented no cold hard scientific facts? Why should they be universally accepted? There is darn little that is. Nothing I said requires a suspension of common sense and logic. Where is that coming from? I don't care how many gigabytes you have on your computer. Have you looked at the data in BBSR 14? I gave you several important facts >The excuse that the government is suppressing them rings very >hollow. It's a rationalization. This is the Information Age. The >medium that makes the List possible has opened the portals to >anyone to express anything, and the government can't do a bloody >thing about it. You seem to believe that all information is on the internet and there are no penalties for releasing classified information.. This is total hogwash. Most archives are not scanned and on the internet. The Eisenhower Library has 300,000 pages of classified documents. I never make the excuse "the government is suppressing the facts". I do demonstrate that the NSA and CIA are witholding UFO documents. I demonstrate that there have been many lies by the government. But I have lectured at more than 600 colleges and over 100 professionalo groups. I present facts and data. There is a very open Q and A session. I have only had 11 hecklers of whom 2 were drunk... that is in 38 years.At a full house (U. of Manitoba)where I was well received and had included the facts about what public opinion is about UFOs, I was asked to poll the audience. I hesitated because I don't usually ask the audience to stick their necks out. The audience clapped, so I asked and found that about only 10% didn't think that some UFOs are alien spacecraft. I totally disagree with your view that nothing is accepted out there. You have not provided any fact to support that. >Might I suggest that your "facts" don't survive the acid tests >precisely because they cannot meet the minimum scientific >standards. Why do you say they don't? I have been out there. They clearly do. >It's one thing to be an authority on nuclear physics >and quite another to provide similar expertise on a subject for >which the testable, falsifiable evidence is quite close to zero. Again you have made a proclamation with no evidence and it is demonstrably false. Falsifiable? If UNKNOWNS are really different from the Knowns then a chi square comparison based on 6 different observable characteristics show show a low paoroability that the UNKNOWNS are just missed KNOWNS. Right on. The probability that the UNKNOWNS were just missed knowns was less than 1%. If the UNKNOWNS are just poor sightings of KNOWNS, then the better the quality of the sighting the less likely to be an UNKNOWN. Wrong, the better the quality, the _more_likely to be an UNKNOWN.If the UNKNOWNS were really different than the greater the duration of observation, the more likely to be an UNKNOWN. Right on again.. If there were really alien spacecraft flying around the earth, they should be observed by pilots and by radar. Right and they are. >As for homework, my folder for UFOs and saucers is 2.85 >gigabytes, of which at most 20% is graphics. And there are >another 50 megs waiting to be filed. The info runs the gamut >from Ashtar to contactees to MUFON to CSICOP - even some of >your stuff. So please don't make assumptions. I can certainly assume that you haven't read the data in BBSR 14. If you had, you wouldn't make the false claims you have made.Having the ashtar and CSICOP stuff indeed won't give you much useful input. Ever hear me or other scientist ufologist use Ashtar or CSICOP as a basis for their acceptance of the notion that some UFOs are alien spacecraft? >Lastly, I'm not the one that needs convincing. The people out in >the real world are the ones that need to be reached. Go to it, >with my blessings. After all, your facts should sell themselves, >n'est-ce pas? Of course and they do, once they have been presented. I have found that typically only 1% of the people in may audiences have read any of the major studies I discuss.I certainly doubt that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: An Open Question To The List - Warren From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:29:07 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:23:11 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Warren >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:33:46 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 07:46:14 -0700 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >>>Subject: An Open Question To The List >>>On Tuesday, June 24, 1947, Kenneth Arnold sighted nine disk- >>>shaped objects while flying near Mount Rainier, Washington. >>>Today, Monday, August 15, 2005, is 58 years, 1 month, and 22 >>>days - or if you wish, 21,237 days - later. Ergo, the 'modern >>>era' of Ufology is approaching its sixth decade. >>>My question: ignoring contactees, abductees, Magonia, Phil >>>Klass, etcetera, what 58 scientific facts - one for each year - >>>about UFOs and aliens are known on 15 August 2005 that were not >>>known on 24 June 1947? I'm not referring to opinions, >>>hypotheses, assumptions, extrapolations, anecdotal evidence or >>>wild-arsed guesses, but to cold, hard, indisputable facts. ><snip> >>>And what does Ufology have to offer? Unprovable reports of >>>people seeing lingering lights over Louisville and darting disks >>>over Dallas. Listfolks, if Ufology is ever going to be taken >>>seriously by the public, it will require something far more >>>substantial and credible than it has offered to date. >>>So, who has a list of 58 facts? >>Here's a start: >>1). In most cases involving a craft there is direct evidence, >> i.e., eye witnesses. >>2). The craft occupies space. >>3). It moves as time passes. >>4). It emits thermal effects. >>5). It exhibits light emission and absorption. >>6). It effects the atmosphere. >>7). It can be photographed. >>8). It has left residual after-effects, i.e., forensic evidence etc. >>9). It has caused electric, magnetic and gravitational disorders. >>10). It has been tracked by radar Bob, >Thank you for your cordial response, good sir. The issue then >becomes identifying "it". Therein lies the rub, since most of >the listed things can equally apply to conventional aircrafts. You're welcome however; the "evidence" that I put forth was in direct response to "your" question about "UFOs," i.e., "Unidentified" Flying Objects; more specifically, the evidence pertains to "manufactured craft" (metallicly structured) exhibiting characteristics beyond that of man-made aircraft (higher speeds, right angle turns on a dime etc.) >BTW, I'm playing the devil's advocate here. I'm convinced that >"something" is going on and has been for years. My point in >posting was to gather views on ways to remove Ufology from the >fringe area by presenting a body of concrete evidence that would >be convincing to John and Jane Public. If you refer "fringe area" to mean that "'public' mainstream science" isn't taking the Ufological bull by the horns, then I concur; however, if the definition is a "public perception," then I would say "only to the ignorant" of the subject. To alleviate the latter, one only needs to educate the "unknowing." To do so extensively, the task would have to fall on the media, and ironically that is how it (Ufology) got there (in the fringe area) to begin with.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: An Open Question To The List - Warren From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:44:04 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:24:49 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Warren >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:43:56 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:50:20 -0300 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >>>Subject: An Open Question To The List <snip> >That's why I've been "reading the mail" on the List, directly >since July of 2004 and via the website for a lot longer than >that. I've accumulated a lot of stuff on the subject. And to be >very frank, sir, I've found little that excites me about the >future of Ufology in its present state of enervation. >Inspire me. Bob,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Secrecy News -- 08/16/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:57:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:26:35 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/16/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 80 August 16, 2005 ** IT'S EASY FOR TERRORISTS ** PENTAGON ISSUES DOCTRINE ON HOMELAND SECURITY ** JASON ON TACTICAL INFRASOUND ** ABLE DANGER: WELDON UNLEASHED ** NRC ADOPTS POLICY ON DISCLOSURE OF SECURITY INFORMATION ** DECLASSIFICATION AT THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES ** SELECTED CRS REPORTS ** SUPPORT SECRECY NEWS IT'S EASY FOR TERRORISTS "To attack [America's electrical] grid, a terrorist need only study publicly available trade journals, which explain where new facilities are constructed," according to an op-ed in the New York Times on August 13. "A terrorist could then disable a particular system by destroying the computers and relays housed in the poorly protected building." The New York Times op-ed editor has an affinity for such claims about the simplicity of perpetrating a disastrous act of terrorism. On May 30, the Times published an op-ed article asserting that "a terrorist," using a 27 page manual found online, could manufacture gram quantities of botulinum toxin and cause tens or hundreds of thousands of casualties. No lab scientist familiar with the procedures involved would endorse that scenario, presented by a Stanford business professor. The notion of a hyper-competent terrorist who can easily overcome the physical and technical obstacles that perplex and detain ordinary mortals has become a common rhetorical trope in public discussions of terrorism. George Smith of GlobalSecurity.org conducted a Nexis search for the phrase "easy for a terrorist" (and similar formulations) and found about one hundred mainstream media citations over the past two years. Judging from press reports, nearly everything comes "easy" to terrorists: "From food terror, to manipulating the flu virus, to blowing up chemical plants, to getting driver's licenses, to coming across the Mexican border, to buying large caliber guns, to shooting down planes with ground-to-air missiles, to spreading hoof-and- mouth disease and destroying the cattle industry, to paralyzing Los Angeles by attacking power stations, to causing major blackouts, to putting anthrax in bagged rice," Smith found. "There really is no end to it. It's stupefying in its universality." Such glib assessments of terrorist capabilities are worse than simply wrong. They spread fear and a sense of helplessness, doing the work of the terrorists, and they threaten to dissipate limited security and financial resources in a hundred different directions. PENTAGON ISSUES DOCTRINE ON HOMELAND SECURITY A new Department of Defense publication spells out official doctrine for the conduct of military operations in defense of homeland security. The military has two "distinct but interrelated" homeland security missions, the new publication explains: homeland defense and civil support. Homeland Defense is "the protection of US sovereignty, territory, domestic population, and critical infrastructure against external threats and aggression or other threats as directed by the President." Civil Support refers to "support to US civil authorities for domestic emergencies, and for designated law enforcement within the scope of restrictions required by the Posse Comitatus Act and other support approved by the SecDef." The new publication "describes the homeland security framework, mission areas, missions and related supporting operations and enabling activities. It also discusses legal authorities; joint force, multinational, and interagency relationships; command and control; planning and execution; and training and resource considerations," the preface states. The new doctrinal publication is "Homeland Security," Joint Publication 3-26, dated 2 August 2005 (flagged by docuticker.com). A copy is posted here (117 pages, 4 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/jp3_26.pdf JASON ON TACTICAL INFRASOUND The military and intelligence value of monitoring "infrasound" - - inaudible sound waves of a frequency less than 20 Hertz -- is the subject of a new report from the secretive JASON advisory group on military science and technology. "Using sound as a source of intelligence in a tactical setting has a long military tradition. Our study was undertaken to assess how this technique might be exploited in contemporary settings, in particular at tactical infrasound arrays," the JASON authors write. "An array of low power robust sensors could be used to monitor diverse activities from a distance. Sonic data could provide strategic information to corroborate rocket launches that are detected by other means, including perhaps location information for mobile launch vehicles. Activity levels at military airfields could be monitored from a safe distance. Real time bomb damage assessments could be augmented with sonic data; particularly when attacking targets below the surface, listening for the explosions can help identify instances when the ordinance fails to detonate. These are but a few examples of the potential utility of sonic monitoring in the intelligence arena," the report stated. The JASON report was prepared for the Army's National Ground Intelligence Center. A copy was obtained by Secrecy News. See "Tactical Infrasound," May 2005 (72 pages, 1.4 MB PDF file): http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/jason/infrasound.pdf ABLE DANGER: WELDON UNLEASHED Rep. Curt Weldon (R-PA) caused a stir lately by alleging that a classified military intelligence data mining program codenamed ABLE DANGER had identified September 11 hijacker Mohammed Atta as a threat as early as summer of 2000 and that the 9/11 Commission had been so informed but had chosen to suppress the information. In an official statement on the matter, former Commission Chair and Vice Chair Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton disputed Weldon's account, and Weldon himself has begun to backtrack, stating that he is no longer certain that a chart he obtained from the military in 2001 actually named Atta. A copy of the August 12 Kean-Hamilton statement is here: http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2005/08/pdp081205.pdf Rep. Weldon has a history of making inflammatory allegations that later proved to be unfounded. On June 7, 1999 he stood on the House floor and accused the Clinton Administration of leaking the design of the W87 nuclear warhead to U.S. News and World Report. It was a charge he repeated several times, referring to an artist's rendering of the W87 warhead which appeared in the magazine's July 31, 1995 edition. "This administration leaked this document to U.S. News & World Report, giving the entire populace of the world... access to the design of the W87 nuclear warhead," he alleged. "I have been told... that it was [Secretary of Energy] Hazel O'Leary herself who gave U.S. News & World Report the actual diagram of the W87 nuclear warhead in 1995," he said. On June 8, 1999 he stated flatly: "Hazel O'Leary leaked the plans, which are in this magazine, for the W87 nuclear warhead." None of this was true. No government diagram of the W87 warhead was given to U.S. News. The artist's rendering of the weapon was a conceptual drawing, not a design. It was explicitly credited by the magazine to the Natural Resources Defense Council. An NRDC analyst confirmed that he had supplied the information to the graphic artist, and that it was based on informed speculation, not classified information. In accordance with the political tactics used to attack the Clinton-Gore Administration throughout much of the 1990s, Rep. Weldon never retracted or apologized for his unfounded accusations. See: http://www.fas.org/sgp/bulletin/sec80.html#weldon According to an August 10 story in The Hill, Rep. Weldon said House Speaker Dennis Hastert will support his potential bid to become the next chairman of the House Armed Services Committee in 2008. NRC ADOPTS POLICY ON DISCLOSURE OF SECURITY INFORMATION Following a dispute with the National Academy of Sciences over the release of security-related information in an NAS report on spent nuclear fuel, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission undertook a review of its policy regarding public disclosure of such information. An NRC Task Force prepared a report on the subject, and the NRC recently approved a new statement of disclosure policy. "The task force has concluded that the Commission has considerable authority to withhold from public disclosure information that could be useful, or could reasonably be expected to be useful, to a terrorist, provided that the information is not readily available to the public already," the report stated. The resulting NRC policy concluded generally that "to the extent practicable," the withholding of sensitive information from public disclosure should conform to Freedom of Information Act principles for withholding security-related information. See "NRC Task Force Report on Public Disclosure of Security- Related Information," Nuclear Regulatory Commission, May 18, 2005 (approved June 30, 2005) (thanks to MJR): http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/nrc-disc.pdf DECLASSIFICATION AT THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES A proposed rule on declassification of national security information at the National Archives (NARA) would update current policy to reflect President Bush's March 2003 amendments to classification policy. The proposed rule, published for public comment in the Federal Register on August 12, also sets forth procedures for automatic declassification and for reclassification of information that has been previously declassified. The Federal Register notice presents a useful and informative series of questions and answers regarding classification and declassification policy. (It mistakenly continues to refer to the "Director of Central Intelligence," a position that no longer exists.) Thus: "Can previously released White House-originated information be reclassified or have its classification restored?" The answer: "An agency or an entity within the Executive Office of the President that solely advises and assists the President, may ask NARA to temporarily close, review, and possibly reclassify or restore the classification of White House- originated information that has been declassified and previously released." See the Proposed Rule on Declassification of National Security Information, Federal Register, August 12: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/08/nara081205.html SELECTED CRS REPORTS The Congressional Research Service does not make its publications directly available to the public. The following CRS reports were obtained by Secrecy News. "Missile Survey: Ballistic and Cruise Missiles of Selected Foreign Countries," updated July 26, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL30427.pdf "Iran's Nuclear Program: Recent Developments," updated August 2, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/RS21592.pdf "'Bunker Busters': Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator Issues, FY2005 and FY 2006," updated August 2, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/RL32347.pdf "Black Members of the United States Congress: 1870-2005," updated August 4, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL30378.pdf "Cambodia: Background and U.S. Relations," July 8, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL32986.pdf SUPPORT SECRECY NEWS If you find Secrecy News useful or interesting, and if you would like to continue to receive it, then please consider making a very large donation to support our research and publication activities. To contribute online or for more information, see: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp We'll be back next week. _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Little Green Men Of Kelly Festival From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:37:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:37:35 -0400 Subject: Little Green Men Of Kelly Festival Source: The Lincoln Tribune - Charlotte, North Carolina http://www.lknliving.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3D753 2005/8/16 50th Anniversary Of The Invasion Of 'The Little Green Men Of Kelly' To Be Focus Of Festival And Symposium In Hopkinsville August 19-21 HOPKINSVILLE, KY --- The 50th anniversary of one of the most famous close encounters of the third kind in the history of Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs) will be celebrated in Hopkinsville August 19-21. On Aug. 21, 1955, members of the Cecil "Lucky" Sutton family on the Old Madisonville Road at the edge of Kelly, a rural community 8-miles northwest of Hopkinsville, said 12 little men dressed in silver suits landed in a spaceship. The Sutton Family engaged them in a battle for several hours. What resulted is one of the most perplexing and mysterious UFO incidents on record. "Our festival is for the serious, the curious and people who just want to have loads of fun," said Cheryl Cook, Executive Director of the Hopkinsville-Christian County Convention & Visitor=92s Bureau. The festival will take place at a variety of locations in the Hopkinsville and Christian County community located in western Kentucky near Fort Campbell, Home of the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), although most events are scheduled for the Conference and Convention Center on Lovers Lane just off U.S. Highway 41-A south of Hopkinsville. Detailed agenda follows. Agenda For The 50Th Anniversary Of The Invasion Of "The Little Green Men Of Kelly" Festival And Symposium In Hopkinsville August 19-21, 2005 Thursday, August 18 6 p.m. =96 Movie: "Plan 9 from Outer Space" The festival begins with the showing of the classic science fiction movie, "Plan 9 from Outer Space" at 6 p.m., Thursday, Aug. 18, at Hopkinsville Community College on North Drive. The price of admission is $2 and includes a free bag of popcorn. Written and directed by the unflappable Ed. Wood, Jr., this 1959 campy horror classic features flying saucers, zombies and cardboard tombstones. A pair of aliens, angered by the "stupid minds" of planet Earth, set up shop in a California cemetery. Their plan is to animate an army of the dead to march on the capitals of the world. The fact that they have only managed to resurrect three zombies to date does not discourage them. An intrepid airline pilot living near the cemetery must rescue his wife from this low- budget terror. Friday, August 19 On Friday, Aug. 19 a host of activities are planned for the community and at the Conference and Convention Center. 10 a.m. =96 2 p.m. Trust for Life Charity =96 Alien Abductions The Kentucky Circuit Court Clerk=92s Trust for Life Charity, a Frankfort-based nonprofit organization that helps raise funds for organ and tissue donor awareness will sponsor "Alien Abductions" at the Pennyroyal Museum in downtown Hopkinsville from 10 a.m. until 2 p.m. "Let us know who you want us to =91abduct=92," says Betty Lingenfelter, chairperson for the event. "We will =91abduct=92 them, sneak them to the Pennyroyal Area Museum and the only way their families will ever get them back is to =91bail them out=92 with cold, hard cash or check that will be used to assist the Trust for Life Charity." The event is a fun way to raise money for an organization that helps those in need of organ transplants. Exhibits on "The Kelly Incident" and related topics will be on display at the Conference & convention center during the festival. 6:30 p.m. =96 Hopkinsville Optimist Kids Alien Costume Contest The Hopkinsville Optimist Club will sponsor a kid=92s alien costume contest with prizes for age groups 3-5, 6-8, 9-11, and 12-14 years of age. Prizes will be given to each age group and are furnished by area merchants. The judging will be held at 6:30 p.m. at the Conference and Convention Center. 5 p.m. until 11 p.m. Trade Show An intergalactic trade show featuring all sorts of out-of-this world paraphernalia, gifts, trinkets, food and keepsakes will be held at the Conference and Convention Center throughout the festival. Booth space is available for $100 for a 10 by 10 space, which includes a 6-foot table and two chairs. Electricity is available for $10 per connection. Set-up will begin at 8 a.m. on Friday, August 19th and must be completed by 4 p.m. Tear down will begin no earlier than 4 p.m. Sunday, August 21. Contact Betsy Bond or Cheryl Cook at (800)842-9959 for further information or go to www.kellygreenmen.com and click on "events" for trade show information. 8:00 p.m. Friday =96 "What is Amateur Astronomy in the 21st Century" Dr. John McCubbin, a local amateur astronomer and the webmaster for www.ccdastrophotography.com, the website for the Halfmoon Observatory will give a presentation on "What is Amateur Astronomy in the 21st Century". Ross Workman will give a presentation on "Amateur Telescopes" Workman is an experienced amateur astronomer and entertaining speaker who formerly operated the planetarium at Land Between the Lakes, a local national recreation area. 9:00 p.m. Friday =96 See the stars and planets Local amateur astronomers will have telescopes set up so that interested participants can see stars and planets such as Jupiter, the moon and its lunar details, and other deep sky objects can be seen from a well lit parking lot. Saturday, August 20 9 a.m. through 4 p.m. Trade show 9 a.m. - Noon - Panel Discussion and QA session - "What Really Happened in Kelly?" A moderated symposium that will focus on the "Kelly Incident" entitled "What Really Happened" will be held Saturday from 9 a.m. until Noon. Among the invited guests are: Geraldine Stith and Elmer Sutton Jr., the children of Lucky Sutton, who were among the 11 people at the Kelly farmhouse on the night of Aug. 21, 1955. R.N. Ferguson, a retired Kentucky state trooper, who helped investigate the Kelly case. Frank Dudas, a retired Hopkinsville police officer, who was on the force at the time of the Kelly incident and saw a UFO earlier that same year. William T. Turner, the Hopkinsville-Christian County historian and a retired history professor at Hopkinsville Community College. Linda Renshaw, a former assistant to Mayor Rich Liebe, who lived in Kelly with her family at the time of the encounter. Jennifer P. Brown, senior reporter for the Kentucky New Era newspaper, who has written numerous articles about the famous UFO case. Leo Wilson, a retiree of radio station WHOP, who remembers first-hand the media coverage of the unusual incident. Norma Malone, a great-niece of Glennie Lankford, who moved into the Kelly farmhouse with her family only months after the UFO sighting. Gail Cook, also a great-niece of Glennie Lankford, who claims to have seen the return of a UFO to the Kelly community in 1997. Skip Aldridge, currently an employee of the Kentucky New Era newspaper, who was caught up in the excitement of the Kelly incident as a teen-ager. Rachel Greenwell, the widow of the late Russell Greenwell, who as Hopkinsville police chief personally interviewed many of those involved in the sighting. Lonnie Lankford, a Christian County man, now 62, who was one of the three young children at the farmhouse at the time of the encounter. Noon =96 4 p.m. Afternoon Symposium Noon - Joe Nickell, Paranormal Investigator, University of Kentucky 1:30 p.m. - George Fawcett, UFO Lecturer and Investigator 2:30 p.m. - Peter Davenport, Executive Director National UFO Reporting Center The afternoon panel will begin at Noon and continue until 4 p.m. Joe Nickell, a University of Kentucky Paranormal Investigator, Peter Davenport; Executive Director of the National UFO Reporting Center and George Fawcett, a UFO lecturer from North Carolina will participate. Joe Nickell, Ph.D. is the author of the"Investigative Files" column for the Skeptical Inquirer magazine. He holds bachelors, masters and doctoral degrees all from the University of Kentucky. He is a Senior Research Fellow or Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP) and is the Associate Dean for the Center for Inquiry Institute. The author of 16 books, including Inquest of the Shroud of Turin, Secrets of the Supernatural, Looking for a Miracle, Entities, Psychic Sleuths, and The UFO Invasion. Nickell has worked professionally as a stage magician, private investigator, journalist and university instructor. Peter Davenport has been director of the National UFO Reporting Center www.nwlink.com since 1994. He also has served as the director of investigations for the Washington Chapter of the Mutual UFO Network. He developed an interest in the UFO phenomenon from his first UFO sighting over the St. Louis municipal airport in the summer of 1954, and he investigated his first UFO case during the summer of 1965 in Exeter, New Hampshire. Davenport claims to have been witness to several anomalous events, possibly UFO related, including a dramatic sighting over Baja California in February 1990, and several nighttime sightings over Washington State during 1992. He earned an M.S. degree at the University of Washington in Seattle in the genetics and biochemistry of fish from the College of Fisheries, as well as an M.B.A. degree in finance and international business from the Graduate School of Business. Davenport was the founding president of a Seattle-based biotechnology company, which currently employs over 300 scientists and technicians. In 1986, he was a candidate for the Washington State legislature, and in 1992, he was a candidate for the U. S. House of Representatives. George Fawcett began his UFO research in 1944 and since 1951 has spoken to more than 660 schools, colleges, UFO groups, military and scientific groups nationally and internationally. He has investigated over 1,200 UFO sighting reports and has had over 100 UFO investigative and research articles published. A frequent guest on dozens of radio and TV shows he served as a consultant to the movie, "UFOs-Target Earth" produced by Centrum Films in Atlanta, Georgia in 1974. Fawcett served as the founder and chief advisor to the New England UFO Study Group (1957), the Pennsylvania and New Jersey Two-State UFO Study Group (1965), the Florida UFO Study Group (1968), the Tar Heel UFO Study Group (1973) and the Mutual UFO Network of North Carolina, Inc. (1989). 4:00 p.m. - "Monsters of the UFO", a documentary that features the "Kelly Incident" BARCON VIDEO PRODUCTIONS will show "Monsters of the UFO", a documentary based on the Kelly Incident at the Conference and Convention Center. The documentary is a one-hour anthology focusing on three stories involving close encounters of the third kind with various types of unexplained phenomenon. In addition to the Kelly green men, the film will explore firsthand accounts of the Mothman legend in Point Pleasant, W.Va., and the Flatwoods Monster in Flatwoods, West Virginia. There is no charge for admission. 7:30 p.m. "Picnic with the Pops," featuring the Owensboro Symphony Orchestra Rounding out Saturday=92s activities is a musical extravaganza=97"Picnic with the Pops" featuring the Owensboro Symphony Orchestra and the talent of Nicholas Palmer, Musical Director and Conductor. The performance begins at 7:30 p.m. on the campus of University Heights Academy located on North Drive. Everyone is invited. "Grass Roots" tickets, which are available at the gate are $8 and purchasers should bring their own lawn chairs and quilts or blankets. If you want to decorate a table and serve food, tables of 8 can be purchased for $120.00. The event will offer "An Out of the World Evening of Music". Tickets and tables for the event can be purchased by calling 270. 887.4295 or tickets can be picked up at the Pennyroyal Arts Council Office at 425 East Ninth St. L&N Depot in Hopkinsville. The gate opens at 6:00 p.m. and the music starts at 7:30 p.m. In the event of rain the concert will be held at the Hopkinsville Community College Auditorium also on North Drive. 9 p.m. until 1 a.m. - "Space Jam" Alien Ball The Cruisers from Louisville will be the featured band at the "Space Jam" Alien Ball at the Conference and Convention Center from 9 p.m. until 1 a.m. The Cruisers cover the best from the '60s and '70s. Their music is highlighted with classics, great rock 'n' roll and Motown. You might think you want to call them an "oldies" band, but they are far more than that. The music you will hear is the music you and your audience really wants to hear. It's the music that will bring you out on the dance floor and keep you there. Tickets can be purchased at the door and are $25 per couple and $15 for singles. Refreshments are available on site. The Oak Grove Tourist Commission sponsors the dance. Sunday, August 21 Noon through 4 p.m. =96 Trade Show Continues 1:00 p.m. Out Of This World Karaoke Contest Presented by House Party Karoke & DJ Service and sponsored by the Hopkinsville Newcomers Club, this karaoke competition beings with registration at noon. The contest starts at 1 p.m. and it is a "first come first served" event. Come early though because there is a limit of 20 registrants in each age bracket: 13 to 17 years of age and 18 years of age and older. Prizes will be awarded. $150.00 =96 1st Place and $50.00 2nd Place in each category 12:30 Bus tour to Kelly, Ky =96 Genesis Tours The highlight of Sunday=92s schedule, however, will be a bus trip and the "Storytelling Tour to Kelly" featuring Christian County Historian and well-known raconteur William Turner. Sponsored by Jeff Newton and Genesis Tours, reservations are required for a $5 seat on the bus, which will leave the Conference and Convention Center for the trip four times during the day, beginning at 12:30 p.m. Subsequent trips will be made at 2 p.m., 3:30 p.m. and 5 p.m. Call 1.800.842.9959 or stop by the Hopkinsville Christian County Commerce Center at 2800 Fort
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 UFO Expert Bidding To Revive County Interest From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:40:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:40:13 -0400 Subject: UFO Expert Bidding To Revive County Interest Source: The News & Star - Carlisle, Cumbria, UK http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=3D273022 16/08/2005 UFO Expert Bidding To Revive County Interest By Andrea Thompson Ufologist Chris Parr is writing a book on Cumbria's fascinating UFO history as he seeks to resurrect interest in unexplained aerial phenomena in the county. The 39-year-old researcher has spent the last 12 years trying to discover the truth about the numerous bizarre sightings which led to Cumbria being known as a hotbed of UFO activity. He was recently forced to the review the future of Whitehaven- based British UFO Hunters (Bufoh) which he co-ordinates, following a dramatic decline in sightings. In 2003 there were 60 reported sightings in Cumbria, but that fell to 40 in 2004 =96 and there have only been two so far this year. But Chris is determined to keep alive what he calls =93the UFO dream=94 in Cumbria and has now teamed up with rival ufologist Sharon Larkin, of the North West Cumbria UFO research and investigations group. he hopes his book, which will also reveal the bizarre adventures of British ufologists, will generate new interest in UFOs locally and encourage a whole new generation of skywatchers to come to the fore. =93Despite the lack of UFO sightings for Cumbria for 2005, the state of British Ufology is alive and kicking,=94 he said. =93Although media interest in the subject has waned over the last couple of years and Cumbria has so far had a very quiet year, this is by no means a reflection on the dedicated work of ufologists throughout Britain who continue to monitor the skies and network with the public and local media in order to acquire UFO-related evidence. =93Ufology is a study that encompasses the whole field of unidentified flying objects and not just =93alien craft=94 which is the usual image presented by the media.=94 Chris will be concentrating on his book after completing the Cumbria UFO survey for 2005. It will focus on Cumbria's UFO history and the bizarre adventures of British ufologists in their quest for the truth. Sometimes the characters in Ufology are just as fascinating as the UFO cases,=94 he said. In the meantime, he and his team at Bufoh will continue scanning the skies above for evidence of unexplained aerial phenomena =96 and hope others will come forward with reports of their
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: An Open Question To The List - Warren From: Frank Warren <frank-warren.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:16:54 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:44:58 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Warren >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:31:02 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:56:37 -0500 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:53:01 -0400 >>>Subject: An Open Question To The List >>><snip> >>>And what does Ufology have to offer? Unprovable reports of >>>people seeing lingering lights over Louisville and darting disks >>>over Dallas. Listfolks, if Ufology is ever going to be taken >>>seriously by the public, it will require something far more >>>substantial and credible than it has offered to date. >>>So, who has a list of 58 facts? Bob, Rich, Et Al, >>The barbarian hordes invaded Italy, destroyed Rome, and ushered >>in the Dark Ages. >>What do we have as proof? >>Witness accounts and "historical" anecdote, but that's it. >>No photogaphy, no trace elements of the Huns, Visigoths, or any >>other invading tribe. >>But we accept the "fact(s)" of the invasions. >And the facts are quite credible when the barbarians could >travel on foot and horseback from point A to point B. The >argument fails utterly when contemplating the notion of aliens >travelling dozens or hundreds of light years to get here and >then being content to flit about in the sky or leave >inconclusive physical traces. Given the age of the universe the notion of "man traveling to the moon" was science fiction just a minute ago! A butane lighter is still "magic" to some groups of people "on this planet!" To surmise alien ideologies and or technologies using human explication is nonsenscical! Your missing Rich's point. >>And it seems we have more "evidence" or UFOs or flying saucers, >>if you will, than we have of the incipient cause of the Dark >>Ages. >It's a typical red herring "argument". The issue is "flying >saucers", not Attila and his merry band of fun-loving >barbarians. >>What more do you want? A new planet resides outside of the >>Plutonian orbit, and none of us have seen it We only have the >>word of those who think they have. >>But is has the aura of fact. >Actually, the photographic evidence as published by NASA trumps your "aura of fact". The photographic evidence from NASA is a "point of light," and if I'm not mistaken this "type" of evidence is part of your grievance with Ufology. >>And you think that ufologists are remiss in some way? >Did I say that? My point is that outside of the ufological >field, what credibility is there? And does it have the >wherewithal to come in out of the cold and become a respectable >field of endeavor? Or perhaps you prefer to see Ufology >consigned to email lists and the side shows of science. >The request was for verifiable facts that can stand up to the rigors of objective scientific inquiry and thus can be a basis for defining Ufology as a real science. >>You're just baiting the List, right? To liven up a dull life? >Oh, my yes. You cannot fathom how empty and meaningless my life >is without your dazzling wit and wisdom. >Speaking of dull lives, my saved List files from 10/1/2004 to >today shows 159 instances of "Reynolds" in the subject line, and >an indeterminate number of unidentified threads that you >started. So do y'all have a life beyond the List? Bob, in your initial post you posed a reasonable, logical question; however, your replies since seem to indicate that you believe Ufology is dominated from this List and or others . . .
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: Adamski And The Straith Letter - Harrison From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 02:18:04 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:46:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Adamski And The Straith Letter - Harrison >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:32:25 +1000 >Subject: Adamski And The Straith Letter >More information from the book, George Adamski The Untold Story, >by Tim Good and Lou Zinsstag. I hope you find it as interesting >as I have. >Sheryl <snip> >"To Professor George Adamski I found this interesting. Chapter 2 UFOs: 1947 - 1968 E. U. Condon Page 894 http://ncas.sawco.com/condon/text/s5chap02.htm Adamski communicated with me frequently. When he was questioned about the title of "professor" which he used, he explained that it was just an honorary title given to him by his "students," and that he never used it himself. George was evidently forgetful, for the letters he sent to me were always signed "Professor George Adamski." I'm just wondering if George was a fan of Ronald Hubbard they seem to have a lot in common, science fiction writers both been to Venus. Fiction book "An Imaginary Trip to the Moon, Venus and Mars" by George Adamski re-written by a lady friend who saw gold in stories of space beings space crafts and visits to Mar & venus. Interesting don't you think? Then we have this: http://www.presidentialufo.com/frances_swan.htm She sounds more believable than any of them. "What came first the chicken or the egg"? ******************************************** Regards Diane Harrison The Australian UFO Research Network http://www.auforn.com P.O Box 738 Beaudesert, 4285 Australia.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Adamski And The Straith Letter From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:26:31 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:49:12 -0400 Subject: Adamski And The Straith Letter >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:32:25 +1000 >Subject: Adamski And The Straith Letter >More information from the book, George Adamski The Untold Story, >by Tim Good and Lou Zinsstag. I hope you find it as interesting >as I have. >Sheryl >The notorious 'Straith Letter' sent to Adamski on 6 December >1957, was typed on official white-seal, blue-embossed paper, >with the American eagle watermark and the Seal of State >impressed. It was signed R E Straith, Cultural Exchange >Committee, Department of State, Washington. The Cultural >Exchange Committee was a department through which >representatives of the United States obtained their visas for >goodwill tours abroad. It's reproduced from the book here: <snip> Sheryl, This is absolutely false, ancient history. NICAP (where I was Assistant Director) co-operated with the FBI investigation by providing sample letters for a typewriter analysis and background information about people under suspicion. We know exactly who stole the letterhead (his father was a State Department employee) and who hoaxed the letter. I think the hoaxer later confessed, but Jerry Clark can correct me on that if I'm wrong. Lou Zinsstag was an Adamski disciple who would believe that the sun rose in the west if Adamski told her so. Tim Good is a nice guy, but apparently he never heard a tall tale that he doesn't
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Ed Walters? [was: Magonia Supplement No. 58] From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:53:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:50:32 -0400 Subject: Ed Walters? [was: Magonia Supplement No. 58] >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:09:16 +0100 >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Subject: Ed Walters? [was: Magonia Supplement No. 58] >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:08:33 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:33:51 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58 >>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:42:40 +0000 >>>>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 58
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: Sandow On Klass - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:53:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:52:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Sandow On Klass - Maccabee >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:33:38 -0500 >Subject: Re: Sandow On Klass >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:33:10 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Sandow On Klass <snip> >Though his ludicrous theories about superplasma were effectively >debunked by everybody from McDonald to the Condon Committee, >Klass - who tried to destroy McDonald for his criticisms of same -> never disowned them. Instead, he simply ceased talking about >them (though, if asked, he would emphatically deny - privately - >that he had abandoned them), moving on to a public approach >based not on honest observations of unusual natural phenomena >but focused obsessively on liars, hoaxers, and publicity- >seekers, real or imagined, as major purveyors of dramatic UFO >reports - thus the Ann Coulterish qualities that make Klass such >a distinctive figure in the history of our subject.< Interesting that you bring up Klass' large ball lightning theory ("superplasma"). Those or you who have access to his first book (hard cover) will see on the paper cover sheet a photograph of a "gigantic ball lightning" UFO photographed by a Royal Canadian Air Force Pilot, R. J. Childerhose, in August, 1956. This sighting is unique because it is the only sighting for which Klass and I agreed that it could not be explained as a conventional phenomenon. We disagreed on what it was: he claimed it was ball lightning (a form of plasma, one presumes, although there is, as yet, no really good theory for it) and I argued that it was too large to be ball lightning. (Based on the visual sighting I hinted that it was a "disc shaped" object.) You can read about this report, which, so far as I know, is the only UFO sighting that Klass endorsed as a real sighting of an
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:00:31 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:29:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - >From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:35:35 -0500 >Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >If one really wants to understand a possible explanation for >abductions, one that confirms a reality older than most others, >then one should peruse the Upanishads and Vedanta Sutras of >Badarayana. >The sleep that accompanies Atman is the waking sleep of >abductees. [SeeBrihadaranyaka Upanishad II.i.16] >The piercings of abductees is recounted in the beginning of the >Upanishad of the Tandins.and particularly the Upanishad of the >Atharvanikas. >The beings who interact with those abducted are clarified in >Vedic scripture: Khandogya. Upanishad I, 6,6 ff. >The experience, by way of the two forms of Brahman [II.iii.2], >account for the disparity in reconciling the abduction episodes >with reality, especially by those immersed in the Western >cultures or traditions. >If Hindu followers have an experience likened to that of >Westerners who think they have been abducted, the Hindi know it >to be a transcendent event, more real than reality, and don t >question it. >However, the Western mind is not open to the transcendence, and >thus it is formulated as an alien kidnapping or medical survey >by an alien species. >>It behooves ufologists to pursue the quasi-religious aspect of >abductions, but not in the context of Western religions but that >of the sub-continent. >And as heavy a scholarly commitment as that might require, it >could be necessary in order to make sense of alien abductions, >which are obscure to those abducted, but relevant in some way to >their genetic or psychological make-up, even though they have no >idea(s) or understanding(s) about or previous interaction(s) >with Hindu transcendence. Hello Rich, You are misinterpreting passages from what is essentially a description of Cosmogenesis. How the Universe comes into being. The Indian 'Big Bang' theory if you will. All the references to Brahma, the Holy Breath of Brahma, lengthy time periods called 'manvantaras' or, the 'ages of Brahma' all refer to the repeating cycles and states of being and non-being, of Brahma. It describes periods of activity and rest, of an eternal -living- Universal Being. The basic message for humanity is; we, as in All sentient life, are all the -same Being- in different disguises. It has nothing to do with 'abductions' of any kind. Spiritual or physical. My feeling is; before we explore the "quasi-religious" aspects of alien abduction, we need to explore it scientifically.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:35:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:33:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:05:31 +0100 >Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:58:43 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>So far... because everyone insists that "it must be something >>other than what we are reporting," the perpetrators of these >>heinous personal violations have gotten away with it -clean.- >>We yelled for help, but the townsfolk sat back and allowed the >>wolves to eat us - alive. >John, I'm interested in what you're saying here. Are you >suggesting that there is some way in which it is possible to >combat whatever it is that is perpetrating the abductions, and >that it is possible for non-abductees ('the townsfolk'?) to >assist in this? >I have read some of Ann Druffel's writing on fighting back >against abductions (indeed, published some in Magonia) and >wonder if this is sort of thing you mean. >What do you think is necessary for the perpetrators to be >brought to book? I assume that first of all you will ask us to >accept that what you are reporting is NOT "something other than >what we are reporting", but after that, in what way can we >ensure that the perpetrators do not 'get away with it'? >I appreciate that you might find it suspicious that a noted >pelicanist Magonian is asking this question, and may assume that >I am only looking for some way to question your experiences. I >assure you that I am not, and Hello John, I don't mind anyone asking 'questions', I only object when it degenerates into condescension and thinly veiled insults. I will answer to your question in the following way. If you were to post a guard or monitoring devices at all the entrances of a house that was being repeatedly burglarized, one of two things is going to happen: a. you will eventually catch the thieves at work, or the burglaries will stop because the perpetrators do not wish to get caught red-handed -so to speak. I always felt that a detailed scientific examination and 'monitoring' of abduction victims would not only provide reliable answers and information about the abductions, but that the spin-off benefit for the abductee would be similar to what I described above; the abductors would get caught red-handed or, they would stop. It was just a 'hope' of mine. The main thrust of it has always been just get a multi-disciplinary investigation happening. Period. What did you think I meant? >I really am interested in your >comment, which seems counter to the defeatist attitudes of some >other abductees and abduction researchers that there is no way >to challenge the abducting agencies. If I didn't fight to keep some hope of relief alive, I would have sunk into a deep depression at the thought of complete helplessness. I have a wife and children that have been affected by this. Imagine the feeling of frustration and sheer impotence of not to be able to protect or defend my dearest loved ones, my wife and my kids, from harm. I'm made of sterner stuff, John. I'll go down fighting this to my last breath. If there is a way to stand against it... I will find it. For me, one way to fight back has been to warn others and raise the awareness of the public by standing on this corner shouting at the top of my
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 03:36:11 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:35:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? - Chalker >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:18:54 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:59:20 +1000 >>Subject: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>I thought List readers might be interested in my musings on this >>theme from my "blog": >>http://theozfiles.blogspot.com ><snip> >>The Peter Khoury alien abduction milieu, which is presented as a >>detailed case study in my book "HAIR of the ALIEN", represents a >>potent example of what the Clancy/McNally research fails to >>address - abduction cases that are clearly and consciously >>recollected, with compelling physical evidence that appears to >>support their legitimacy. >Bill. Have proven beyond doubt that a) this hair comes straight >from a human body and not say a wig made of human hair, b) that >it is a pubic hair and not say a head hair, c) that it >definately a woman's hair. Peter, It seems you are not very familiar with the detail of the study. I encourage you to do so. While the original IUR report is readily available, my book "Hair of the Alien" give much greater detail and also covers the second phase of the work. If the hair came from a wig, I doubt that viable DNA would be extracted from the shaft of hair in a wig made from human hair. If some was extracted it would be expected to be very degraded. The mito DNA extracted from the hair sample did not show this sort of degraded effect. I have not made an explicit identification of whether the hair sample was pubic or head hair. Its appearance and characteristics - long and not radically curly for example - suggests head hair, but this is not certain. By implication from Peter Khoury's description of the blonde he had little doubt where the hair sample came from, specifically head hair. Given that such matters are routinely uncertain and subject to considerable variability, even in mainstream forensics, it was not an area I was going to focus on. Likewise sex typing was not our focus either, given the apparent chain of evidence. Of course I understand, your perspective on these matters is more likely to be - it can't be, therefore it isn't. i.e. it never happened and therefore anyone who claims it might have, must be, by implication, untrustworthy. Hence, I guess your suggestion about the need for private detectives. >For the sake of argument granting all three of the those >suppositions, what is so anomalous about an Australian woman of >predominately Irish family background having a Chinese maternal >ancestor. This woman's mothers, mothers, mothers, mother's etc >etc mother came from China, who knows how many generations back. >I can think of various ways this could have come about, from a >fairly recent origin (Irish man meets Chinese woman in Liverpool >in 1875), to the moderate past (sailor/ trader brings his >Chinese wife or at least part Chinese daughter back to Europe to >be raised as good Christians in say 1700), to a gene going from >continent to continent over the millennia. You seem to have completely misunderstood the DNA findings, if you have studied them. The shaft hair sequence was not a composite of caucasian and asian DNA sequences. It was an asian sequence with rare asian mongoloid aspects. This was confirmed closer to the root. The root seqence was caucasian with the rare basque gaelic aspects. We are not talking about composite DNA sequences that one would expect from the kind of generational intermarrying between different ethnic groups, as you are describing above. I get into some footnote discussion of the controversies involved with race determinations via DNA in my book, but it is not the answer you are suggesting. >By a similar process an English woman featured on one of the >many TV genealogy shows found her mt DNA came from Tonga! >The more European the hair the more remote the Chinese ancestry >is likely to be. This is rather simplistic and would require a determination of how unusual these Oceanic or Asian aspects actually are in the cases you suggest or surmise. The reality is that the Tongan or Chinese ancestry aspects would most likely be defined by fairly common communial sequences. The unusual substitutions found in the Khoury hair sample were of a rare kind. These were even rare within the specific communities involved, both in the Asian Mongoloid and Basque/Gaelic DNA sequence variations. These subsitutions are rated by their rarity in the human consensus data bases. >We only have Koury and his wife's word that this hair came in >any anomalous way. How many private detectives have you hired to >check into his life and character? Unlike you apparently, I did not make a knee-jerk armchair reaction, and assume that Peter and Vivian Khoury were untrustworthy, therefore mandating the need to hire a legion of private detectives to check out Peter Khoury's life and character. Instead over more than a decade I have interviewed and evaluated Peter's life and character. He has volunteered a lot of information of a type and extent that would clearly make people like you uncomfortable if the same approaches were made of you. I evaluated this information, and went way beyond just Peter, his wife, and wider family members. I sort out lots of other people, whom had all manner of different persausions about Peter Khoury's life and character. I clearly focused on people who I could verify that knew him well or who had a direct role or knowledge of pertinent events, not just people who were relying on second hand or indirect information. Even a few people once friendly with Peter, who had a later falling out with him, supported his credibility in the specific area of the 1992 event and the hair sample. Most notably in this category was Jamie Leonarder. Of all the people closest to him at the time in 1992, and familar with the circumstances at the time, I thought Jamie would a "hostile" witness. He was never-the-less supportative of Peter's account of the 1992 episode, despite confirming they were no longer friends. As stated in my book "Hair of the Alien" as a result of my detailed enquiries into his life and character I have found Peter Khoury to be "a friendly and reliable person. He has at times become passionate and volatile about his cause and does not tolerate those he feels dishonour the integrity of people who genuinely feel they have experienced an alien abduction. He remains open to whatever these experiences may turn out to be, but insists on the serious and ethical research and support of abductees." (page 45) I have found him to be a credible witness, who is often far harsher on himself, than some others are on him. He has withstood a lot of scrutiny from me and has been consistent and credible in his descriptions of his experiences. Indeed I found him rather more credible, consistent, open and cooperative than a lot of his critics. His commonsense and critical, but thoughtful, approach to his own experiences and that of others, in my mind, renders him as an
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:49:50 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:36:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Clark >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:51:31 -0500 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:18:54 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:59:20 +1000 >>>Subject: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>We only have Koury and his wife's word that this hair came in >any anomalous way. How many private detectives have you hired to >check into his life and character? >Congratulations, Peter. You have just proved that you are at >heart a fascist. Last evening Peter's words set off an ethical trip-wire, thus my blunt reflexive response, about which I have had second thoughts. As I have reflected on this since then, I have decided to presume that this was his idea of a joke. On that presumption, I withdraw my accusation, extend an apology, and offer some further words of clarification. (All of the above are negated, of course, if Peter Rogerson says he _wasn't_ joking.) I believe as strongly as one can believe anything that ufologists have an obligation to persons who report UFO experiences. God knows the world treats them badly; ufologists have a moral obligation to do better. Witnesses are typically puzzled and confused, sometimes even frightened. The UFO investigator has multiple responsibilities. One of the principal of them is to do no harm and, if possible, to help. UFO claimants are not objects. They are human beings, and uniquely vulnerable ones. Overwhelmingly, they're sincere. If they aren't, a capable investigator ought to be able to determine that through various ethically responsible avenues of inquiry. We have been discussing Phil Klass and his legacy. Klass pioneered a smear technique based on the premise that anybody who made an extraordinary UFO claim had coming whatever Klass decided to deliver to him or her, whether it was an ad-hominem sneer at the "little nobody" who presumed to claim an experience Klass declared impossible or a full-scale expose of everything in the witness' personal life that can be employed to discredit, embarrass, or humiliate that individual. The most sordid episode of that was Klass's years-long trashing - without, by the way, ever laying an actual glove on him - of Travis Walton. There are other examples. Klass aside, two lasting personal memories: While working on my encyclopedia, I went through hundreds of case studies compiled by ufology's most thorough field investigators. One instance involved a notorious contactee episode. Covering every angle that could be covered, the investigative team documented both a complex hoax and its curious dynamics. The work was impressive. On the other hand: As the episode was evolving - it received considerable local publicity as it was happening - a local doctor told investigators that he, too, had had experiences with the particular group of space people. For various reasons it became clear that the doctor was suffering delusions, a determination made both from internal incoherencies in his story and from interviews with family members. That was fine and above-board. What was neither, I learned, was that the investigators had probed into the claimant's personal life, gaining (dubiously legal) access to credit records, professional evaluations, and the like - grossly and unethically violating the man's privacy. My skin crawled as my eyes fell on this stuff. The man had come forward in good faith, and the investigators had betrayed him, treating him like an object, not a human being owed respect and ethical treatment. Their prying, besides being wrong, had done nothing to resolve his claims. A few years ago, a stranger called me. He identified himself as a private detective who investigated the Roswell incident in his spare time. At first I was interested in what he was saying. Then he began to recount investigations that strayed into irrelevant personal histories, even of individuals who were cooperating with him and were none the wiser. When I told him I thought this was unethical, he replied that as far as he was concerned, no one who made a UFO claim and told him about it had any right to privacy, that from that moment onward their lives were his to probe as he wished, and that anything was fair game. The conversation ended on something of a frosty note. In the present instance Bill Chalker, one of the world's finest UFO investigators in my observation, has done his homework regarding the claimant's credibility without crossing a single ethical line. Now the work moves forward with physical evidence which can be tested and judged on its own. Bill betrayed nobody's privacy, accepting what the witness was willing to share of it and learning what else he needed to know without delving into personal matters on no relevance to his mission. Besides being ethically reckless, the dispatching of private detectives into a witness' life would have practical consequences, the morality aside. A witness reports a dramatic close encounter or abduction or whatever. He relates the incident to an investigator. Soon afterwards, the witness is informing us that a car is following him, his phone seems to be tapped, somebody is messing with his mail, and he keeps seeing one or more strangers, who appear to be tailing him, wherever he goes. The impressionable point to the MIB. Magonians inform us that this proves the individual is a paranoid nut whose original story can therefore be dismissed on the spot. Respect witnesses. If they're lying to you, you don't have to embark on gross privacy violations to find that out, if you're in any way competent. And if they're not lying to you - and chances are they're not - you are doing inexcusable damage to a fellow human being.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: Adamski And The Straith Letter - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:57:33 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:38:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Adamski And The Straith Letter - Clark >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:32:25 +1000 >Subject: Adamski And The Straith Letter >More information from the book, George Adamski The Untold Story, by Tim Good and Lou Zinsstag. I hope you find it as interesting as I have. Uh, Sheryl, I hate to tell you this, but it has been conclusively known for some time that the Straith letter was a forgery written by Gray Barker (on his typewriter), Jim Moseley, and one other guy whose name doesn't come immediately to mind. Moseley has written extensively about his involvement. Even in the late 1950s, when this absurd letter was in circulation (there were others sent to other UFO personalities [e.g., Coral Lorenzen] at the same time, but they recognized them as pranks and ignored them), it was widely suspected that Barker was responsible. The ufologist Lonzo Dove even circulated a manuscript proving conclusively that the letter had been composed on Barker's typewriter, which was later sealed into a wall so that federal investigators couldn't get their hands on it and cause legal trouble for Barker and associates. This is yet another reason I don't believe Adamski -- his
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: Adamski And The Straith Letter - Koi From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:54:40 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:39:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Adamski And The Straith Letter - Koi >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:32:25 +1000 >Subject: Adamski And The Straith Letter >More information from the book, George Adamski The Untold >Story, by Tim Good and Lou Zinsstag. I hope you find it as >interesting as I have. >Sheryl >----- >The notorious 'Straith Letter' sent to Adamski on 6 December >1957, was typed on official white-seal, blue-embossed paper, >with the American eagle watermark and the Seal of State >impressed. It was signed R E Straith, Cultural Exchange >Committee, Department of State, Washington. The Cultural >Exchange Committee was a department through which >representatives of the United States obtained their visas for >goodwill tours abroad. <snip> Sheryl, If you are interested in the "Straith Letter" then you may want to have a look at James Moseley's "Saucer Smear" website. On a number of different pages on that website, Moseley discusses how the Straith Letter "was a hoax perpetrated on Adamski in 1957 by the late Gray Barker and your truly", and refers to his "well-known published confession after Gray Barker's death". He also comments on one person who "persisted in believing the letter authentic", commenting that "The Will to Believe is not easily killed!". See, for example, the pages from Saucer Smear at the links below: http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v52/ss050325.htm http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v52/ss050325.htm The "Straith Letter" is discussed by Moseley in more detail in his recent book. (See the discussion by Moseley, James and Pflock, Karl in their "Shockingly Close to the Truth!" (2002) at pages 124-127 (in Chapter 5), 331 (in the Appendix) of the Prometheus hardback edition, with an image of the "Straith letter" at page 332). The hoax is also discussed online (with an image of the letter being presented) by John C Sherwood in his article "Gray Barker's Book of Bunk: Mothman, Saucers and MIB" (2002), Skeptical Inquirer, Volume 26, Number 3, May/June 2002, at pages 39-44, which is available online at: http://www.csicop.org/si/2002-05/barker.html Jerry Clark's Encyclopedia has a fairly comprehensive summary of the history of the letter, with relevant references. See his "The UFO Encyclopedia: The Phenomenon from the Beginning - 2nd edition" (1998) in Volume 1:A-K at pages 33-34 (in an entry entitled "Adamski, George") of the Omnigraphics hardback edition. Since the list of references for the "Straith Letter" in my draft Chronology is fairly short, I might as well cut and paste the rest of them below in case there are of any use to you: Clark, Jerome in "Making Contact" (1997) (Edited by Bill Fawcett) at pages 29-30 (in Section 1) of the Morrow hardback edition. Clark, Jerome in his "UFO Encounters" (1992) at pages 86-87 (in the unnumbered chapter entitled "Into the Wild Blue") of the Publications International hardback edition. Honey, Carol A in George Adamski's "Flying Saucers Farewell" (1961) at pages 11-12 (in the Introduction) of the Abelard- Schuman hardback edition, at page 11 of the Paperback Library edition (published under the title "Behind the Flying Saucer Mystery"). Keith, Jim in his "Casebook on the Men in Black" (1997) at page 170 (in Chapter ) of the I-Net softcover edition. Marrs, Jim in his "Alien Agenda" (1997) at page 193 (in Chapter 7) of the Harper Collins paperback edition.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: Adamski And The Straith Letter - Allan From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:03:33 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:40:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Adamski And The Straith Letter - Allan >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:32:25 +1000 >Subject: Adamski And The Straith Letter >More information from the book, George Adamski The Untold Story, >by Tim Good and Lou Zinsstag. I hope you find it as interesting >as I have. >The notorious 'Straith Letter' sent to Adamski on 6 December >1957, was typed on official white-seal, blue-embossed paper, >with the American eagle watermark and the Seal of State >impressed. It was signed R E Straith, Cultural Exchange >Committee, Department of State, Washington. The Cultural >Exchange Committee was a department through which >representatives of the United States obtained their visas for >goodwill tours abroad. It's reproduced from the book here: >Britain's Flying Saucer Review was the first to publish the >letter in their May/June 1958 issue. FSR wrote to Mr Straith at >the State Department and received a reply dated 10 June 1958, >which stated there was no one by that name connected to the >Department, no division under the name Cultural Exchange >Committee, and the department was investigating the possible >misuse of official letterhead stationary. Adamski challenged the >denial in an article in the June-July issue of FSR. >One critic told Adamski that the letterhead upon which Straith >wrote was turned out by 'tens of thousands', with the Seal of >State impressed on the blank paper. Not so, commented Adamski. >He admitted that when the seal is printed on the letterheads it >would be done as one printing operation, with the imprint of the >seal in the same colour ink as the letterhead - which in all >communications Adamski had received where the seal was printed >had been blue. But the Straith letter had the seal impressed in >the paper, and it was not coloured. Furthermore, the State >Department representative who visited Adamski admitted that the >seal was never impressed upon blank paper. >Gray Barker did a considerable amount of research into the >Straith affair which he published in his Book of Adamski, and in >a chapter devoted to the letter he describes how it had created >reverberations in the world press. Even The Times of London ran >a twelve-inch column on it. Various press representatives >hounded the U.S. Embassy in London, who were obliged to issue an >official statement denying the existence of both Straith and the >Cultural Exchange Committee, and suggested that the letter was a >hoax. What is the purpose of reviving this old chestnut now? Jim Moseley gave us the dope on the Straith letter 20 years ago, after Gray Barker's death. Even the reference to the column in the London Times (April 10, 1958) is exaggerated. The total column was about 12 inches, but only some 2 inches is given to the "Straith letter", and there is no mention whatever of press representataves hounding the US
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:41:23 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:43:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder - Rimmer >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 03:54:54 +0100 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >Meanwhile, I take great issue with your repeated use of the word >"magazine" to describe Magonia. To me this is a serious >exaggeration which cannot go unchallenged. It seems to me that >what you have is an ad hoc publication comprising empty polemic >and little more. You may have edited the thing for years, but I >can assure List Members that I know _far_ more about it than >you.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:47:05 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:44:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:58:43 -0400 >Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers <snip> >The 'better' abduction cases involve people who were wide awake >when 'something' involving UFOs and their occupants happened. >Cases that sleep paralysis had absolutely nothing to do with it. What would be extremely interesting and potentially useful would be to compile a list of exactly what was said by a psychologist or psychiatrist when asked directly, "How do you explain the wide awake cases or the witnessed cases, then?" Has anyone ever received an answer to that question, either face to face or in writing? Is there any way this question can be posed to more members of those professions than by the occasional encounters which have taken place so far? I wonder if there is a message board for those professions where this would be possible? I wonder if a distinguished UFO researcher or better yet, organization, were to pose the question to, say, the American Psychiatric Association and/or the American Psychology Association instead of individual professionals, with an invitation to send anonymous replies, might that produce some interesting answers? Might some sort of promising dialogue open up? Even though an anonymous reply can't be depended on to come from
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: 1970 Australian Tanami Desert Sighting - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:03:13 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:47:56 -0400 Subject: Re: 1970 Australian Tanami Desert Sighting - Hatch >From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:28:50 +1000 >Subject: Re: 1970 Australian Tanami Desert Sighting >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:48:06 -0700 >>Subject: Re: 1970 Australian Tanami Desert Sighting >>>From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:32:30 +1000 >>>Subject: 1970 Australian Tanami Desert Sighting >>>UFO Sighting 1970 Tanami Desert Northern Territory Reported >>>2005 by Mr R Hunt >>>Date: August 1970 Location: Mongrel Downs Station near Western >>>Australia border half-way between Alice Springs & Darwin >>>Names have been witheld by request. Three very highly educated >>>and qualified people. >>>A Geophysicist and two Geologists, working in the Tanami Desert. >>>One of the witnesses has since gone on to become a member of >>>parliament in Western Australia. >>>Partial report only - more at web page, plus images. >>>Land marks - Granite & Rabbit Flats Northern territory. At the >>>time of the sighting we were on a property called Mongrel Downs >>>Station close to the western Australian boarder. At the time of >>>the sighting we stopped our two land-rovers at a location known >>>as the Three Officers Hill, which are several hundred feet high >>>in another-wise flat landscape for virtually hundreds of miles. >>>http://www.auforn.com/tanami-UFO.html >><snip> >Hi Larry >>Oooh! That one looks like a goodie. I like cases out in the >>middle of nowhere. >I have a few more like this one Larry. I will keep you posted. >>One minor quibble about the location. I found Mongrel Downs OK >>at 129:43E - 20:35S, close to the border of Western Australia >>state. I would not describe that as being halfway between Alice >>Springs and Darwin though. >Rabbit Flats is the location of the sighting Mongrel Downs was >the property the guys stayed at on occasions. You have to go >through Mongrel downs to get to Rabbit flats R told me. I've had >trouble finding 3 officers Hill on the map? how did you go >Larry? I used the Australian official Gazetteer online here: http://www.ga.gov.au/map/names/ Its free, and highly recommended, though local names like "Rabbit Flats" might not be found. All I could find was Mongrel Downs, and gave the coordinates for that. My Bartholomew's Map shows The Granites, in rough agreement with those numbers. It will have to do for now. >>The road between those two places runs easily 260 miles >>to the east of Mongrel Downs as the crow flies. >>I'm puzzled with the statement that the observers were >>facing North, with the Sun just behind them. >>Maybe they meant to say facing South, or were mis-quoted. >>That happens all the time. >The report states: "From our position we were looking north the >UFOs traveled West to East at low speed." I read the report. Once again, they could not have faced North on any day in August and had the sun _behind_ them. I doubt a geophysicist/geologist would confuse North and South. Instead I there was some misunderstanding or they were misquoted instead. >I guess what R was trying to say, when they got to the top of 3 >officers Hill they were looking north and the object crossed >their field of view, the objects were traveling West to East. I got that, but its impossible. >>The Sun would have been in the northern sky at that time of >>year, and time of day .. anywhere from 329 to 350 degrees of >>azimuth say .. >>.. the day of the month in August 1970, is not given. >I know Larry. Shame he couldn't remember the day. Maybe when he >thinks a little more about the sighting he might come up with >the day, R is 70 years young ;) I would prefer the day in case it correlates to some other sighting. It won't help with the The North-South matter though. It would be best to ask the witnesses these questions when they are first interviewed and memories are fresher.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: An Open Question To The List - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:29:01 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:49:35 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Hatch >From: J. Craig Beasley <fallingleaf.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:11:03 -0500 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:31:02 -0400 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List <snip> >And the facts are quite credible when the barbarians could >travel on foot and horseback from point A to point B. The >argument fails utterly when contemplating the notion of aliens >travelling dozens or hundreds of light years to get here and >then being content to flit about in the sky or leave >inconclusive physical traces. There seems to be an assumption, that 'space aliens' must travel here in person, instead of sending intelligent probes. Why is that? Is it Hollywood movies? Some psychological need? Or is this just a device to discard UFOs as anomalies entirely?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Salla Stands By Contactee Associate From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 15:14:58 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:54:58 -0400 Subject: Salla Stands By Contactee Associate The following text, is a re-posted report by Dr. Michael Salla on Jean Ederman's speech last night (first formally sponsored event of the new Exopolitics Institute). I'll comment in a later post... ----- Repost from prepare4contact yahoo group forum. "Aloha all, I'm very pleased to report the August 15 lecture by Jean Ederman (aka Eric Julien) sponsored by the Exopolitics Institute went ahead successfully. With approximately 35 participants in a room overlooking the Pacific Ocean at the Sheraton Keahou Ocean Bay Resort, we all heard Jean's first hand account of the information he has gained through numerous extraterrestrial experiences including the well known "Change the World" message that first brought Jean to public prominence. The lecture together with the opening ceremony for the Institute lasted just under three hours and established a firm foundation for future Institute events in Hawaii involving speakers with significant extraterrestrial contact experiences or information. A important goal for those who attended is to turn Hawaii into a hub for sharing and integrating extraterrestrial information so Jean's lecture was important step for the Institute and those attending. The event was captured on video and a DVD will soon be available. A detailed report will be written up of what transpired at the event, and of the information shared from Jean's extraterrestrial contact experiences. So for now I will give just a brief overview of what transpired and my reflections on Jean's credibility as an author and public speaker. Jean's recent book "La Science des Extraterrestres (an English translation is underway) was a result of an increasing number of experiences he has had with extraterrestrials since his first UFO sighting in 1977, and culminated with information that he began to receive in 2002 after further UFO sightings and communications with extraterrestrials. Since Jean gave up a well paid position as a Senior Airport Manager in France and has taken an indefinite break from the Aviation Industry, these experiences and communications were obviously very transformative for Jean. I think it important to emphasize that Jean was a professional in the Aviation Industry and has given up a secure and well paid career to relate to the general public what has transpired in terms of his own direct experiences. This is important to point out since Jean's experiences and information is paradigm shifting and it can be anticipated that there will be many skeptical responses questioning his motivations and integrity. This has already occurred in France with intense debate over Jean's experiences and information. It can be expected that the same will occur in the English speaking world as he becomes more prominent in sharing his information and experiences. After having Jean as a guest in my home for almost two weeks and watching Jean's preparation for the lecture, listening to his explanations of his information and experiences, and watching his interactions with others, I have to conclude that he is motivated by the very highest principles; has great integrity and detailed attention to accurately describing his information and experiences. He exhibits the qualities one might expect of an individual with significant extraterrestrial experiences and wanting to share this with the interested public. He certainly needs to be taken seriously because of his excellent ability to conceptualize the information he claims to have received from extraterrestrials and his professional aviation background. Jean also explained in his lecture the events surrounding his mysterious disappearance on March 12, 2004. Essentially, he claims that a blue race of extraterrestrials from the system of Lyra physically took him off planet and exposed him to life on different worlds, as well as sharing extraterrestrial information. Jean claims that this took about 10 days in the time stream of the extraterrestrials, but only three hours in Earth time. Jean used the metaphor of dreams and waking reality to explain how different time streams work where such discrepancies might occur. A dream literally takes only a few minutes in standard time but in the dream one may experience quite an extended period. Jean explains how these different time streams operate in terms of the concept of "time density" . Jean offers no corroborating hard evidence to support his claim of having been taken off planet by extraterrestrials, so we need to look at 'soft evidence' in terms of his subsequent behavior and credibility. The experiences from his "10 day encounter" were so intense that in seven months he wrote a very impressive technical book of over 400 pages that goes into great detail into his theory of time density and the science of extraterrestrials. The book goes significantly beyond Jean's earlier articles beginning in 2002 that explained how extraterrestrials manipulate time that he learned through his claimed communications with extraterrestrials. The speedy completion and eventual publication of the book in July 2005 is a sign of the transformative nature of Jean's experience and how it impacted on his life. From my own experience as an author, I can confirm that writing a full length book and having it accepted for publication in seven months is a remarkable achievement. Since Jean offers no definitive proof for his extraterrestrial contact in March 2004, the strongest evidence to back his claim is his book. The book's detailed descriptions and illustrations will obviously need to have expert analysis since the educated layperson will not fail to be impressed by the detailed information in it. The response so far from a tenured French Professor of Mathematics who conducted a detailed analysis of Jean's book after being a former prominent critic is very encouraging. This suggests that experts will find much merit in his theories once they commit themselves to analyzing it. While favorable expert analysis of Jean's book will not prove that Jean gained this information from extraterrestrials, it will nevertheless be 'soft evidence' to support his claims. In the lecture Jean impressed the audience with how extraterrestrials can manipulate these different time streams in order to maneuver through space/time and to accumulate information. He explained how the storage of information is directly relevant to the 'time density' occupied by beings and that the time density occupied by humanity loses much of the information available to higher time densities. Obviously, there is a need to substantiate Jean's claims above subjective factors such as integrity, sincerity and consistency all of which Jean possess in abundance. His book is an important means of testing the coherence and scientific merit of Jean's claims but this will at best qualify as soft evidence in support of Jean. As far as 'hard evidence' is concerned, Jean has observed a physical abnormality near his left ear that he believes is a 'physical implant' by the "blue ET race" he was visited by. Upon examination, one medical expert concluded that it was a cyst, but the expert could not explain how the "cyst" had moved over a period of several months as Jean was able to show by photographs. A cursory physical inspection of the abnormality is suggestive of something that could either be an implant as Jean believes or a cyst. Further investigation will be necessary here. The search for evidence to substantiate Jean's experiences will obviously be important for those such as myself actively investigating Jean's case and seeking to analyze the exopolitical significance of his information. Jean's information is paradigm shifting since not only does he explain the science of extraterrestrials, but also relates the different motivations of extraterrestrials and how they interact with humanity. Jean is presently focusing his energy on disseminating the information in his book, and plans to elaborate further on his physical encounters with his next book which is currently being written. I think his first book does much to enhance his credibility as an author with information that will spark much intellectual debate among experts in the esoteric field of 'time density' research which is actively being studied by a number of experts around the world. Obviously, Jean's claimed physical contact experiences will generate heated debate. Nevertheless, we can safely analyze Jean's contacts based on the available 'soft evidence' which while not conclusive, does support the veracity of his claims. An interview with Jean appears on Dolphinville Radio at: http://www.dolphinville.com/radio/ More information about Jean's background, credentials, articles, etc., are available at: http://www.exopoliticsinstitute.org/EricJulien.htm Information about expert research on time is available at: http://www.chronos.msu.ru/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 The Amazing Randi? From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:12:41 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:01:21 -0400 Subject: The Amazing Randi? Hi List, If I recall several of you have had run ins with the world famous James "Amazing" Randi. What was the outcome? I'll be the first to admit he's done some 'amazing' things to bring out frauds and con artists and that's good stuff. Yet it's been a while since I've read or heard of his Ufology challenges. Now that Phil Klass is gone on, if Randi's still around it would be a good torch to pass.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: Adamski And The USAF Report - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:11:18 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:03:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Adamski And The USAF Report - Sparks >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:24:39 +1000 >Subject: Adamski And The USAF Report >For those who may be interested I've gone through the book >George Adamski The Untold Story, co-authored by Tim Good and Lou >Zinsstag and pulled out a few interesting bits of information >collected by Good that you might like to read. In this email >I've included information relating to attempts to retrieve >official UFO reports that might relate to the Adamski sighting >at Desert Centre. For space reasons I've edited it while trying >to retain as many of the relevant facts as possible. >On the 3rd August 1956, the US Air Technical Intelligence >Centre, in reply to an enquiry from researcher Richard Ogden >regarding Adamski's Desert Centre contact of 20 November 1952 >(during which Adamski and the other six witnesses had said that >Air Force planes were flying over the area at the time) said: <snip> This below is a Project Blue Book report from a Lockheed aircraft (not an AF plane) at nighttime at 7:05 PM Pacific Standard Time (2005 Mountain Time) that clearly has absolutely nothing to do with Adamski's alleged daytime lunch hour experience over 6 hours earlier at 12:15-12:30 PM in a different location some 40 miles away to the northeast in the opposite direction from where the Lockheed pilot was looking (which was towards the southwest or west southwest). >Copied from microfilm relating to a teletype message concerning >a sighting at Salton Sea, California on 20 November 1952: >-UNIDENTIFIED OBJECT SEEN PILOT LOCKHEED AIRCRAFT >B50 5626, ON A ROUND ROBIN FROM DAVIS MONTHAN. >OBJECT SEEN AT 2005 MOUNTAIN TIME 10 MILES EAST OF >SALTON SEA, ALTITUDE 16000 FEET. AIRCRAFT WAS ON A >HEADING OF 275 DEGREES AND SIGHTED OBJECT AT >1100 O'CLOCK TO HIS POSITION. OBJECT WAS STATIONARY >AND WAS CHANGING COLOR FROM WHITE TO RED TO GREEN. >STARTED IN MOTION IN N.W. HEADING AND DISAPPEARED >LIKE TURNING OUT A LIGHT. THERE WERE NO (word not legible) >OR PROPULSION OR LOCOMOTION AND THE PILOT WAS UNABLE >TO DESCRIBE THE SIZE OR SHAPE. >- Nov 22, 1952. If you read the report there is no "saucer" sighted, no alien, just a classic misinterpretation of a celestial body, the bright planet Venus, setting on the western horizon, changing colors from white-red-green and seeming to move around, exactly as astronomical bodies do because of atmospheric scintillation, which is greatest when low on the horizon (maximum amount of atmosphere for the light to traverse). From the Lockheed pilot's location 10 miles east of Salton Sea (apparently just east of Niland) the planet Venus was setting to the west-southwest (WSW) at azimuth 239 degrees at about 0.5 degree above the apparent horizon corrected for aircraft altitude of 16,000 ft and corrected for standard refraction, and about 3 minutes away from disappearing at 7:05 PM, depending on cloud conditions over San Diego which could suddenly cut off the view or cut it off seconds or minutes early. The Lockheed pilot saw the light at about his 11 o'clock position (about 15 to 45 degrees to his left) from his course heading of 275 degrees (assumed True since Magnetic was not stated in his report) or at around 230-260 degrees which is consistent with Venus' position at 239 degrees. But the most devastating refutation of Adamski's alleged encounter with a saucer occupant in the Mojave Desert as a fraud is the fact that the scenario had already been published by gossip columnist Walter Winchell on June 30, 1952, several months before Adamski allegedly had his encounter. Winchell claimed that a Palomar "scientist" had witnessed a flying saucer land in the Mojave Desert and encountered several saucer occupants who emerged and then re-entered the ship and left, in May 1952. The U.S. Army may announce the secrets of the saucers in the Fall of 1952, Winchell wrote. Obviously this sounds like "Prof." Adamski who loved to make himself appear to be a scientist on Palomar and be confused with the legitimate astronomers at Palomar Observatory. But it is 5- 6 months "too early." It upstages Adamski. Perhaps Adamski heard about the column since it referred to a "Palomar scientist" and someone among his admirers might have thought it was talking about him and showed it to him. Maybe that gave Adamski the idea to stage the hoax in the Mojave Desert east of Desert Center after a decent interval had passed so people could forget about the Winchell column.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: Bring Your Best UFO Evidence/Proof - Burke From: John Burke <isunburn.nul> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:07:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Bring Your Best UFO Evidence/Proof - Burke >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:13:21 EDT >Subject: Bring Your Best UFO Evidence/Proof >May I be so bold as to suggest each researcher have >their best evidence/proof at the ready in a >presentable format that can be disseminated at push >button expediency. Greg -- Good idea! There's one case that would be nice to have readily at hand... I don't have any link for a report on this case and I believe it would be a good one to include on such a list because it's a "hard evidence" case. It's the one involving the sample of pure magnesium that was analyzed. Anyone remember that one? Better yet, how about a link for that story?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Why Do We Believe In Aliens? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:40:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:40:39 -0400 Subject: Why Do We Believe In Aliens? Source: The Glasgow Herald - Scotland http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/45176.html August 17 2005 So, Why Do We Believe In Aliens? Beth Pearson Bryan Appleyard admits he has a slippery grasp on reality, not least how it is manifested in his day-to-day routine. "Oh s***," he says. "I've got to be in the east end for 2pm" =96 and so his world changes again. In this world, certainty is a matter of degree. Appleyard will most likely honour his appointment, but he's reluctant to concede that we can be sure of much else in life. Take aliens, for instance. While conceiving of, and researching, his book, Aliens: Why They Are Here, two experiences inspired Appleyard, a journalist. The first was watching Steven Spielberg's extraterrestrial TV series Taken and realising he'd been watching it as if it were a documentary. The second was being hypnotised by a psychologist and seeing a UFO in some trees in Norfolk. "I was clear in my mind that I was under hypnosis, but I was also clear in my mind that I was seeing the flying saucer for real," he says. "But when I came out, I realised it wasn't real and I'd just created it." For the record, Appleyard thinks aliens probably don't exist. Yet there are plenty of believers out there. The question is, then, why do humans need them to exist? Maverick philosopher and polymath David Lamb has said aliens reflect our "deep psychological desires for companionship", while Carl Jung believed them to be projections of anxiety. As for Freud, that's fairly self-explanatory. "Having read hundreds of accounts of alien encounters, it's clear that sexual anxiety is strong because a lot of the encounters involve experiments on genitals," says Appleyard. "But that doesn't explain them all. People might use aliens as they use any belief system to fill a hole in their lives. We all fill it in different ways =96 it may be football, it may be Roman Catholicism. Like religion, alien life has a fairly unambiguous set of goodies and baddies. The former want to alert us to the consequences of human behaviour, for instance environmental destruction or nuclear war. The latter want to steal things from us, such as our genetic diversity. "Both could be seen as projections of our anxieties about human behaviour," says Appleyard. "Star Trek is a classic example: it imagines the aliens as human beings, most of them bad, which tends to be what science fiction does." Appleyard thinks many sightings have occurred when people have been in hypnotic or trance-like states and, of course, many more "retrieved" during hypnosis. He has observed, too, that people who include aliens in their portfolio of irrational beliefs all have character traits. "They're techno-literate, imaginative and anxious," says Appleyard. "They're also, like a lot of people these days, sceptical of organised religion." None of these characteristics apply to Appleyard, of course; he just watched Dr Who the first time around and never lost interest in science fiction.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: Out-Klassed - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 02:37:02 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:56:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Out-Klassed - Gates >From: Terry Blanton <commengr.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:59:17 -0400 >Subject: Out-Klassed >ebk and Listers, >It is with amusement that I read the vindictive comments about >Philip. It is my opinion that he did nothing less that what was >expected. Not that he was remunerated for his skepticism; but, >that he was given inside knowledge in exchange for his >arguments. It is also my opinion that Carl Sagan made the same >deal later in life when Klass became less effective. >Arguing with Phil was like wrestling a pig in mud. You >eventually realize the pig is enjoying it. Terry, Listers, I had my own personal encounters with Uncle Phil, over the phone and in writing and found him to be interesting. For me he was another skeptibunker, meaning that no matter what evidence came forward, he would throw out any explaination and that explained it away... meaning explain it away at all costs. So in honor of Uncle Phil, we have below the skeptibunker rules of engagement: 1) All sightings of UFOS can be explained with some explaination other then true UFO 2) Any explaination will do, planets, weather balloons, hoax, and so forth.. it really doesn't matter because... 3) Other skeptics will never challenge skeptical theories put forth by their colleagues, but instead will quietly advance their own, then blathering that the sighting now has two explainations, one from skeptic X and the other from Skeptic Y 4) All witness testimony is to be totally disbelieved and scorned, UNLESS a witness sights something like a meteor, says its a meteor, then the witness is to be believed and taken at their word. 5) If a witness compares a UFO sighting with something they know, such as "The UFO looked like a bright Star", or "It was a bright as the full moon.." you can instantly explain away said sighting as Stars or moon. 6) Any photograph of a UFO is to be doubted, disbelieved, and scorned. But if mainstream science tells us, essentially based upon photo interpretation that this or that element has been identified in a Hubble photograph, we are to believe that as absolute fact never to be doubted. Naturally the Skeptical Inquirer will never run an article critical of photo analysis done by so called main stream science...even though so called main stream science has recently admitted that up to 40 percent of research they do is a bogus stroke job. 7) Some in so called main stream science trot out Carl Sagans old addage about Extrodinary claims requiring Extrodinary proof, yet when the age of the universe is extended from 2 billion (way back in the thirtys) years to 10-14 billion years. A pretty extroadinary claim. Science claims that their is so called "Dark Matter" in the universe... essentally based upon photo interpretation, BUT main stream science doesn't actually have a sample of said dark matter, which can be sent to 21 labs and be scientifically validated as dark matter. Personally I would call dark matter a pretty extrodinary claim as well. Point being is skeptics and so called main stream science lower their standards of proof when it involves some pronouncement or theory advanced by main stream science. 8) If a skeptibunker can't readily explain away a sighting by the usual crop of suspects, rather then admit defeat they claim that someday, sometime some down to earth explaination will surface and explain said sighting away. In essence the sighting is already explained away they just don't know the explaination as yet. Proof in search of evidence. 9) If somebody can get a close explaination, then the case is solved. Ala Roswell and the mogel balloon that could be placed at 17 miles, but not placed on site. Now if a UFO investigator advanced a UFO explaination that was 17 miles away from the site, they would be scorned and ridiculed. If a debunker comes up with something within 25 miles, they and their explaination are hailed by other skeptibunkers as being the ones that solved the sighting. 10) Last, but not least: Those darn Pelicans are pretty busy, and pretty active... don't count them out.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: Man Claims Aliens Made Him Murder Friend From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:25:16 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:00:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Man Claims Aliens Made Him Murder Friend See also previous related post at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/may/m27-008.shtml Source: The News & Star - Cumbria, UK http://tinyurl.com/8p83u 28/05/2005 Murdered Without A Motive By Nick Griffiths Emilio Schweighart Moya: Victim was 'vulnerable member of society' who suffered from paranoia and schizophrenia and was also an alcoholic An unemployed alcoholic who claimed aliens made him kill his neighbour on the Raffles estate in Carlisle has been sentenced to life imprisonment for murder. John Robert Sutton, 39, of Lister Court, must serve at least 15 years in jail for beating Emilio Schweighart Moya to death during a brutal and motiveless attack in May last year. A jury at Preston Crown Court returned a unanimous guilty verdict yesterday following a four-day trial. Judge Peter Openshaw QC, the Recorder of Preston, described the fatal beating - inflicted with a chair leg, a broken wine bottle and a vacuum cleaner - as "savage and determined". He said: "The fact he carried out a most brutal and motiveless murder suggests he will present a significant danger to the public for many years to come." Sutton shook his head and wept as the jury returned the verdict after four hours of deliberation. The trial came nearly 12 months after the body of Mr Schweighart Moya, 48, was found by paramedics and police in the early hours of May 29 last year. His body was discovered semi-naked, wearing only underpants and socks, in a cupboard at his flat, where he lived below Sutton. Nearly 80 separate wounds were identified. Mr Schweighart Moya, a Spanish national who moved to Carlisle to live with his wife until the marriage broke up, was described as a "vulnerable member of society". The father-of-three suffered from paranoia and schizophrenia and was also an alcoholic. Before the discovery of the body Sutton was found drunk on Wigton Road, where he told police: "I have murdered someone." He also told officers as he took them to the murder scene that he had been abducted by aliens - and they made him carry out the killing. Sutton claimed he had been taken "from above" by white-suited extraterrestrials. In interviews he told police: "The aliens came yesterday. We lost eight hours and they were doing things to us. I tell you, I killed him. They made me." In a second interview, Sutton admitted killing Mr Schweighart Moya, but claimed he didn't know why. "I just remember going ballistic," he said. Sutton and Mr Schweighart Moya also went to Carlisle Police Station after the supposed abduction. There they told staff they had both been abducted by aliens. Mr Schweighart Moya was seen to have a bruised jaw. Sutton denied murder despite admitting he "must have" carried out the killing. He claimed he was not responsible for his actions as his responsibility was diminished when he killed Mr Schweighart Moya, whom he classed as a friendly acquaintance. Sutton told the court he was drinking with his victim when he had an out-of-body experience - and snapped out of it to find his neighbour dead at his feet. His defence team said this was brought on by the medical condition porphyria, which caused Sutton to lose co-ordination and left him unable to move when he was 13. But the jury found Sutton responsible for his actions and returned a guilty verdict after four hours of deliberation. After murdering Mr Schweighart Moya, Sutton went to city centre shop TK Maxx, where he was in such a hurry to buy new clothing he tried jeans on in view of staff on the shop floor. He later dumped the bloodstained clothes in which he carried out the murder in a bin in The Lanes shopping centre. Judge Openshaw said he did not doubt Sutton had "some mental disturbance and confusion at the time", "Otherwise why would he commit an otherwise motiveless murder?"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 UFO Review Issue 12 From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:15:54 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:02:20 -0400 Subject: UFO Review Issue 12 As usual, the issue is available as either a PDF or a Word document at: http://www.uforeview.net Either of the two top left hand buttons depending on the file you want. And in this issue; Roswell Reflections A follow up interview with Nick Redfern on what's happened since the publication of his book, "Body Snatchers In the Desert". Rick Doty Is My God An interview with Robert Collins, co-author of the book "Exempt From Disclosure" Interesting. Spheres, Stones, and Skulls by Kithra Amongst the oddities of what may be termed strange discoveries are spheres, stones, and crystal skulls. And, although these may not necessarily lie within the field of Ufology they are, perhaps, peripheral subjects; especially as many believe these artefacts had extraterrestrial origins. Report of Study into the alien abduction Phenomenon An alternative version of Professor Chris French's recent study at Goldsmiths college. Glimpses of Extraterrestrial Utopias Sheryl Gottschall takes a look at the contactee movements of the 50s and 60s. Fortean Corner Our ace reporter Dam Acne investigates the strange phenomenon of "raining men" in Harpenden. Lapis Conference report, St. Anne�s, Saturday June 18 th 2005. The Secret History of the MoD XFiles UFO Review is pleased to welcome Dr. David Clarke to our pages for the first time with an article about those files in the archives. The Face On Mars Speaks Phoenix Lights Event Analysis Bill Hamilton does an item by item run down of the sequence of events in Phoenix on March 13th 1997. Alien Pet Club. Searching for the Truth. Dennis Balthaser editorial - Is Timing Everything As Related to the Roswell Incident? The Brazilian Breakthrough and other UFO Problems Andrew Pike, FRAS casts a cynical eye over recent Ufological events. Hidden Agenda A second piece by Andrew Pike - a synopsis of Andrew's new book for which which reader comment and input is welcomed. A Clinical Analysis Of Antigovernment Phobia.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: An Open Question To The List - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:24:08 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:05:26 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Friedman >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 16:37:01 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:35:34 -0300 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List ><snip> >>I see no mention of the dozen or so PhD Theses about UFOs. >Interesting! Has anyone compiled a list of where these documents >are, their identifying information, and maybe if some of them >are on line? >Does anyone know what field these theses were submitted for? >Does anyone know what has become of their authors? I have listed the theses with title and author and institution in my 10 page bibliography in TOP SECRET/MAJIC. The 2nd edition with a new 5000 word chapter has just been published by Marlowe and Co. and is available from Amazon, Borders, Barnes and Nobleetc and myself. Or give me a fax number or mailing address and I can send a copy. Dr. David Jacobs, who has been teaching History at Temple University, did one at the University of Wisconsin on, The UFO Controversy in America, which was published as a book with a similar title by Indiana University Press. One on Press coverage of UFOs was done at the Mediall School of Journalism at Northwestern University by Dr. Herbert Strentz. He was Dean of Drake University in Iowa. Has some strong comments about the inadequacy of press coverage. They still hold. Dissertation Abstracts, at many University Libraries, may have newer ones listed.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: An Open Question To The List - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:33:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:07:36 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Reynolds >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:17:03 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:26:22 -0300 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List ><snip> >Reality time: some of the posts in the List are strikingly >similar to what I've read on UFO-related message boards. There >is the same "us vs them" mindset, the same Borgian group-think, >and the same attribution of Ufology's public image to >suppression by EEE-vill forces in high places. And then one >wonders why those in positions of authority and in the >scientific disciplines brush it off as nonsense. ><snip> Bob Renaud: Ufology, as with other "disciplines," need not advocate; that is, ufologists don't have to try to convince the establishment that UFOs are real. Ufologists gather information and try to resolve the enigma among themselves. If media, academia, the military, science, or the public at large wants to glom on to what ufology offers, that's fine. If not, that's fine too. Astronomists, physicists, archeologists, historians, et al. do not make it a practice, generally, to spend their time convincing outsiders that what they are doing or what they find out is important or relevant. They just do what they do. If media or the public finds out about their findings or studies, then some practitioners go public, but that's not a sine qua non for the work being done. Ufology consists of a small band of aficonados who want to know what the heck UFOs are. Some advocate, but most are just curious souls who like a good mystery and hope to solve it, among themselves or individually. The public, including the military and governments be damned. It's the UFO riddle that counts. You want ufology to prove it's worth. To whom? We here all know that UFOs exist, and that we don't really know what the phenomenon is. But to go forth, proselytizing, is worthless and futile at this point.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: Sandow On Klass - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:57:48 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:10:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Sandow On Klass - Bourdais >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 09:33:38 -0500 >Subject: Re: Sandow On Klass >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:33:10 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Sandow On Klass >>>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 01:13:44 -0400 >>>Subject: Sandow On Klass [was: Classy Klass] >>>>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:50:50 -0400 >>>>Subject: Re: Classy Klass Here is an example of his state of mind. He begins his book, UFO Abductions A Dangerous Game, by discussing the shares of author's fees on the book on Betty and Barney Hill, Interrupted Journey. He quotes Dr Simon: "He told me of the heated debate among the principals over their respective shares of the proceeds".
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: An Open Question To The List - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:06:33 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:12:49 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Bourdais >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:20:04 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >Lastly, I'm not the one that needs convincing. The people out >in the real world are the ones that need to be reached. Go to >it, with my blessings. After all, your facts should sell >themselves, n'est-ce pas? They won't sell because there is no worse deaf man than the one who does not want to hear, which is still the case of many in the intellectual and scientific world. N'est-ce pas?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:43:44 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:14:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:00:31 -0400 >Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>From: Richard R Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:35:35 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers ><snip> >My feeling is; before we explore the "quasi-religious" aspects >of alien abduction, we need to explore it scientifically. John: I agree totally with your call for a scientific look at abductions, but I can't help but feel that there is some connection to what one might call the "religious element." So many historical or theologically inspired incidents approach the "experience" in some ways that to eschew transcendence does not make sense to me. But you have had the experience, so I have to defer to your judgement in the matter.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 17 Re: An Open Question To The List - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:36:02 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:17:14 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Ledger >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 >11:17:03 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul>To: >>ufoupdates.nul Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 >>00:26:22 -0300 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List <snip> >>For what reason? Are you bored? >Not at all. I have more than enough to keep me occupied 27 >hours a day. The reason I subscribed to the List is to keep up >on this one small aspect of the UFO "scene". >As I've stated, my purpose in posting was to play the devil's >advocate Not at the point that I replied to you posting. But you are just what we need, another devil's advocate. >by noting that Ufology is, has been, and in all >probability will continue to be a "fringe" field because of >the public perception of the subject as the asylum for >conspiracy theorists and screwballs. Where have I read that a few hundred times before? >And my initial question was what >Ufology has to offer in the form of evidence that will stand >up to the scrutiny of the rigorous, objective investigation >that will attend any effort to legitimize the subject. Probably will never happen now that bird brains like Michio Kaku are on board. >To those who have responded cordially, thank you. You're welcome. >However, some replies impugned my intelligence (IQ twice >tested at 160+) and questioned my knowledge. They reeked of >self- important elitism that is unbecoming to serious >researchers. And there were the school-related phrases such as >"do your homework", and your own, "...start you in >kindergarten and work you through to high school," which >comment a few here doubtless thought to be immensely clever. >I graduated 45 years ago. Terms pertaining to school children >are therefore irrelevant, except perhaps to those functioning >at that level. >Reality time: You mean retirement? I've tried reality, it doesn't work for me. I've decided to become either a politician or a psychiatrist.In those professions, at least, I can wallow in ignorance and get paid well for it. >some of the posts in the List are strikingly >similar to what I've read on UFO-related message boards. There >is the same "us vs them" mindset, the same Borgian >group-think, and the same attribution of Ufology's public >image to suppression by EEE-vill forces in high places. And >then one wonders why those in positions of authority and in >the scientific disciplines brush it off as nonsense. I don't wonder at the last. It's basically timidity and the need to keep the income flowing, feeding the kids, purchase Beamers and Volvos and small vessels. >Ufology will, I fear, continue to be dominated by SSDD. >We now return you to your regularly scheduled List posts. Well it's been a slice. Can I now return to wallowing in my own self-pity at being part of the "fringe" field because of the public perception of the subject as the asylum for conspiracy theorists and screwballs"?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: Bring Your Best UFO Evidence/Proof - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:47:23 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:40:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Bring Your Best UFO Evidence/Proof - Boone >From: John Burke <isunburn.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:22:06 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Bring Your Best UFO Evidence/Proof >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:13:21 EDT >>Subject: Bring Your Best UFO Evidence/Proof >>May I be so bold as to suggest each researcher have >>their best evidence/proof at the ready in a >>presentable format that can be disseminated at push >>button expediency. >Greg -- >Good idea! >There's one case that would be nice to have readily at hand... I >don't have any link for a report on this case and I believe it >would be a good one to include on such a list because it's a >"hard evidence" case. It's the one involving the sample of pure >magnesium that was analyzed. >Anyone remember that one? Better yet, how about a link for that >story? Thanks John, I'm hoping that all of us who deal with the public and press can have that 'instant fact-file'. Example, if one is asked about physical evidence, one should have at the ready the contact info to Mr. Ted Phillips' research. Only the data he wants out like his website and contact info. If one were asked about photographic analysis then one would have at the ready Dr. Maccabee's contact, research info. There's so much data that it's overwhelming to try to disseminate and it's growing daily. This is the only area of research that focuses on something that doesn't exist that just won't stop growing and piling on data. I'm reminded of that Roger Zelazny series of fantasy novels The Amber Series. In that thrilling adventure series there was a family who had exceptional abilities who contacted one another via interactive high-end tech calling cards called trumps. It would be neat to have at the ready that push button, one touch card or hyperlink that goes to an archive of links to the data with an introduction by each researcher about his or her analysis of their field. At least the public and press would get the info straight from the horse's mouth instead of some ass in the wind :) People get interested in UFOs every day. Just check the counters on your websites to prove that. If Coast to Coast AM were broadcast 24/7 like a network you know as well as I do that people wouldn't turn it off. Any paranormal radio network would. Yet people don't have the time to dig through on and on and on. It's best if the pro Ufologists put together their own interactive syllabi so the public and press can get right to the heart of the matter quickly.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: Adamski And The Straith Letter - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:58:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:42:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Adamski And The Straith Letter - Clark >From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:54:40 +0100 >Subject: Re: Adamski And The Straith Letter >>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:32:25 +1000 >>Subject: Adamski And The Straith Letter >>More information from the book, George Adamski The Untold >>Story, by Tim Good and Lou Zinsstag. I hope you find it as >>interesting as I have. >>The notorious 'Straith Letter' sent to Adamski on 6 December >>1957, was typed on official white-seal, blue-embossed paper, >>with the American eagle watermark and the Seal of State >>impressed. It was signed R E Straith, Cultural Exchange >>Committee, Department of State, Washington. The Cultural >>Exchange Committee was a department through which >>representatives of the United States obtained their visas for >>goodwill tours abroad. >Jerry Clark's Encyclopedia has a fairly comprehensive summary of the history of the letter, with relevant references. See his "The UFO Encyclopedia: The Phenomenon from the Beginning - 2nd edition" (1998) in Volume 1:A-K at pages 33-34 (in an entry entitled "Adamski, George") of the Omnigraphics hardback edition. What follows is a slightly edited (references removed so that I don't have to retype them, too) version of what I wrote about the Straith hoax in the encyclopedia - Jerry Clark --- Adamski's most celebrated "proof" of high-level endorsement came in the form of a letter mailed to him from Washington, D.C., on December 6, 1957. Written on State Department stationery, with a department seal impressed on the paper, it began: "For the time being, let us consider this a personal letter and not to be construed as an official communication of the Department." It went on to state that the "Department has on file a great deal of confirmatory evidence bearing out your own claims.... While certainly the Department cannot publicly confirm your experiences, it can, I believe, with propriety, encourage your work." The letter was signed "R. E. Straith, Cultural Exchange Committee." This remarkable development was first announced in a cautiously worded article in the March/April 1958 issue of Flying Saucer Review, which quoted part of the letter. On April 10 the Times of London reported that the State Department was denying the existence of both Straith and the committee he allegedly represented. Adamski and his partisans immediately charged cover-up. Even before he released the document, according to his biographers, Adamski "made a thorough investigation of the authenticity of the letter. He was assured that Straith was an employee of the State Department, whose work was of such a nature that his name did not appear on any of the published lists of that Department." Richard Ogden sent a registered letter, addressed to Straith, to the State Department. When the return receipt indicated the letter had been accepted, he viewed this a evidence that Straith was real. All over the world Adamski's followers were claiming vindication. South African UFO enthusiast Edgar Sievers declared the letter to be a "decisive document on imminent developments on this planet." Wilbert B. Smith, a Canadian radio engineer who earlier had been involved in an official UFO project, told [Donald E.] Keyhoe, after the latter expressed skepticism about the document, that he "knew" the Straith letter to be authentic, because someone of his acquaintance knew the man personally. Straith was working in a "supersecret agency partly under State Department control." C. A. Honey stated flatly that through his and Adamski's efforts, "Straith was located." More than two decades later, looking back on the controversy, [Lou] Zinsstag and [Timothy] Good concluded that while "much of the evidence is circumstantial ... on balance there is more in favor of the letter['s] being genuine." Others felt otherwise. Adamski critic Lonzo Dove believed that the "Straith letter," as it would be called in flying-saucer lore, was written on the typewriter of Gray Barker, a well-known publisher and promoter of contactee materials. Other noted ufologists of the period, including [Isabel] Davis and [Coral] Lorenzen, came to the same conclusion. Dove went so far as to submit a detailed article documenting his findings, but Saucer News editor Jim Moseley refused to publish it. For years afterwards rumors circulated that Barker (who died in 1984) and Moseley had conspired to write the letter, and in 1985 Moseley confessed as much: "For many years, your editor used to visit Gray Barker in Clarksburg, West Virginia, for a weekend every few months.... On one particular occasion ... a young friend of Barker's [James Villard] with a relative high in the Government had provided Barker with a packet of genuine official stationery from various Government agencies... Barker and I wrote not one but _seven_
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: An Open Question To The List - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:31:27 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:44:29 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Smith >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:17:03 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List If you want people to "prove" UFOs exist (non prosaic ones I mean), then you aren't going to get that here. This is because proof is in the eye of the beholder. To some, expert (or vocal public figures like Hoagland) opinions ar eenough. To others, witness testimony is enough. To others, video and photos are needed. But really, these aren't going to be enough for you, personally, because everything can be faked, lied about or misintepreted. Therefore, you have to go out and find them yourself. Analyzing a lump of alien (spaceship, body, implant) is not likely to happen to you (not enough to go around). But it really seems alot of people see UFOs so there is some hope to quantify that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:52:52 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:49:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? - Rogerson >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 03:36:11 +1000 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:18:54 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:59:20 +1000 >>>Subject: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>>I thought List readers might be interested in my musings on this >>>theme from my "blog": >>>http://theozfiles.blogspot.com >><snip> >>>The Peter Khoury alien abduction milieu, which is presented as a >>>detailed case study in my book "HAIR of the ALIEN", represents a >>>potent example of what the Clancy/McNally research fails to >>>address - abduction cases that are clearly and consciously >>>recollected, with compelling physical evidence that appears to >>>support their legitimacy. >>Bill. Have proven beyond doubt that a) this hair comes straight >>from a human body and not say a wig made of human hair, b) that >>it is a pubic hair and not say a head hair, c) that it >>definately a woman's hair. >Peter, >It seems you are not very familiar with the detail of the study. >I encourage you to do so. While the original IUR report is >readily available, my book "Hair of the Alien" give much greater >detail and also covers the second phase of the work. >If the hair came from a wig, I doubt that viable DNA would be >extracted from the shaft of hair in a wig made from human hair. >If some was extracted it would be expected to be very degraded. >The mito DNA extracted from the hair sample did not show this >sort of degraded effect. >I have not made an explicit identification of whether the hair >sample was pubic or head hair. Its appearance and >characteristics - long and not radically curly for example - >suggests head hair, but this is not certain. By implication from >Peter Khoury's description of the blonde he had little doubt >where the hair sample came from, specifically head hair. Given >that such matters are routinely uncertain and subject to >considerable variability, even in mainstream forensics, it was >not an area I was going to focus on. Likewise sex typing was not >our focus either, given the apparent chain of evidence. >Of course I understand, your perspective on these matters is >more likely to be - it can't be, therefore it isn't. i.e. it >never happened and therefore anyone who claims it might have, >must be, by implication, untrustworthy. Hence, I guess your >suggestion about the need for private detectives. >>For the sake of argument granting all three of the those >>suppositions, what is so anomalous about an Australian woman of >>predominately Irish family background having a Chinese maternal >>ancestor. This woman's mothers, mothers, mothers, mother's etc >>etc mother came from China, who knows how many generations back. >>I can think of various ways this could have come about, from a >>fairly recent origin (Irish man meets Chinese woman in Liverpool >>in 1875), to the moderate past (sailor/ trader brings his >>Chinese wife or at least part Chinese daughter back to Europe to >>be raised as good Christians in say 1700), to a gene going from >>continent to continent over the millennia. >You seem to have completely misunderstood the DNA findings, if >you have studied them. The shaft hair sequence was not a >composite of caucasian and asian DNA sequences. It was an asian >sequence with rare asian mongoloid aspects. This was confirmed >closer to the root. The root seqence was caucasian with the >rare basque gaelic aspects. We are not talking about composite >DNA sequences that one would expect from the kind of >generational intermarrying between different ethnic groups, as >you are describing above. I get into some footnote discussion of >the controversies involved with race determinations via DNA in >my book, but it is not the answer you are suggesting. >>By a similar process an English woman featured on one of the >>many TV genealogy shows found her mt DNA came from Tonga! >>The more European the hair the more remote the Chinese ancestry >>is likely to be. >This is rather simplistic and would require a determination of >how unusual these Oceanic or Asian aspects actually are in the >cases you suggest or surmise. The reality is that the Tongan or >Chinese ancestry aspects would most likely be defined by fairly >common communial sequences. The unusual substitutions found in >the Khoury hair sample were of a rare kind. These were even >rare within the specific communities involved, both in the Asian >Mongoloid and Basque/Gaelic DNA sequence variations. These >subsitutions are rated by their rarity in the human consensus >data bases. >>We only have Koury and his wife's word that this hair came in >>any anomalous way. How many private detectives have you hired to >>check into his life and character? >Unlike you apparently, I did not make a knee-jerk armchair >reaction, and assume that Peter and Vivian Khoury were >untrustworthy, therefore mandating the need to hire a legion of >private detectives to check out Peter Khoury's life and >character. >Instead over more than a decade I have interviewed and evaluated >Peter's life and character. He has volunteered a lot of >information of a type and extent that would clearly make people >like you uncomfortable if the same approaches were made of you. >I evaluated this information, and went way beyond just Peter, >his wife, and wider family members. I sort out lots of other >people, whom had all manner of different persausions about Peter >Khoury's life and character. I clearly focused on people who I >could verify that knew him well or who had a direct role or >knowledge of pertinent events, not just people who were relying >on second hand or indirect information. Even a few people once >friendly with Peter, who had a later falling out with him, >supported his credibility in the specific area of the 1992 event >and the hair sample. Most notably in this category was Jamie >Leonarder. Of all the people closest to him at the time in >1992, and familar with the circumstances at the time, I thought >Jamie would a "hostile" witness. He was never-the-less >supportative of Peter's account of the 1992 episode, despite >confirming they were no longer friends. >As stated in my book "Hair of the Alien" as a result of my >detailed enquiries into his life and character I have found >Peter Khoury to be "a friendly and reliable person. He has at >times become passionate and volatile about his cause and does >not tolerate those he feels dishonour the integrity of people >who genuinely feel they have experienced an alien abduction. He >remains open to whatever these experiences may turn out to be, >but insists on the serious and ethical research and support of >abductees." (page 45) I have found him to be a credible >witness, who is often far harsher on himself, than some others >are on him. He has withstood a lot of scrutiny from me and has >been consistent and credible in his descriptions of his >experiences. Indeed I found him rather more credible, >consistent, open and cooperative than a lot of his critics. His >commonsense and critical, but thoughtful, approach to his own >experiences and that of others, in my mind, renders him as an >asset to investigation and research, and he has been such, even >beyond his own experiences. Bill, However unusual, this is a human hair from a human being with part Irish ancestry, of which there are a lot in Australia. Now either Khoury is more or less telling the truth and this hair comes from a sex worker, or he is not and it could have come from anywhere. If this hair comes from a sex worker, I reckon the odds are more likely that she is plying her trade in Australia, than she is a sex tourist from the lost city of Shamballa, a Zeta Reticullan zoo or a parallel universe, or a nymphomaniac time traveller. Then there is the matter of Ks injury, according to one web account this was caused by an accident at work, according to another he got beaten up. Exactly what happened and why? Could there be a connection between the two events. It increasingly seems that it is not the ufos but ufologists who live in a parallel universe, one without crime, vice, liars, drunks, junkies, con artists and general scallies, where everything is sunny and beautiful, except for the nasty old grays. I fear none of you would survive a week on the streets of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 When The USAF Was In The UFO Business From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:56:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:56:09 -0400 Subject: When The USAF Was In The UFO Business Source: Newhouse News Service http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/Rios081705.html Aug. 17, 2005 When The USAF Was In The UFO Business By Delia M. Rios c.2005 Newhouse News Service Just after midnight on July 19, 1952, seven blips appeared suddenly on National Airport's control center radar in Washington, according to this unattributed cartoon depicting those UFO sightings. "There's one ... and there it goes!" a nearby airline pilot reportedly radioed. (Photo courtesy of the National Archives) WASHINGTON - "Rumors about the saucer mystery fly almost as fast as the strange sights themselves," pronounced the narrator of a 1952 Paramount newsreel, commenting on a rash of UFO sightings from New York to Washington. He added ominously: "With this evidence, the mystery thickens." And so it seemed. A comic book narrative of the time came down on the side of believers. "SAUCERS OVER WASHINGTON, D.C.," blared its bold black headline. It dismissed the military's "glib" explanation of radar blips seen that July by National Airport flight controllers. Simply a case of temperature inversion or reflections of ground objects, insisted the Air Force brass. But what about the pilot, the cartoonist countered, who described "a bright light moving faster, at times, than a shooting star"? Well, what about it? From 1947 to 1969, Americans accounted for 12,618 reports of unidentified flying objects. It was up to investigators at Ohio's Wright-Patterson Air Force Base to determine if extraterrestrial beings, in fact, had descended from space to Earth. This work was incendiary enough to be classified. But the government bestowed a bureaucratic name just the same: "Project Blue Book." It went on until 1969. That year, the United States Air Force declared itself out of the UFO business, but not before concluding that 701 sightings remained "unidentified." Not to worry, Wright-Patterson officials assured the public in a 1985 fact sheet: "No UFO reported, investigated and evaluated by the Air Force has ever given any indication of threat to our national security; there has been no evidence submitted to or discovered by the Air Force that sightings categorized as `unidentified' represent technological developments or principles beyond the range of present-day scientific knowledge; and there has been no evidence indicating that sightings categorized as `unidentified' are extraterrestrial vehicles." Just to be clear: Should anyone feel threatened by something he or she sees, the Air Force advised, "contact a local law enforcement agency." And one last thing: "Periodically, it is erroneously stated that the remains of extraterrestrial visitors are or have been stored at Wright-Patterson AFB. There are not now nor ever have been, any extraterrestrial visitors or equipment on Wright-Patterson Air Force Base." Did Project Blue Book really lead to such a disappointing end? The unconvinced - or the merely curious - are welcome to see for themselves. Blue Book's documents and photographs comprise 42 cubic feet of declassified records - numbering 2,000 pages per cubic foot - now housed in the Military Reference Branch of the National Archives. They can be accessed through 94 rolls of 35 mm microfilm. A glimpse inside the files finds a graphic charting coverage of UFOs - including in the popular magazines LOOK and LIFE - against subsequent spikes in sightings. There was a outbreak of them in the summer of 1952. Even Harry S. Truman got involved. A July 26, 1952 memo out of Box 26 reveals that "the President had requested Gen. Landry to find out the details of the sighting that had occurred in Washington on Saturday night." That 1952 newsreel, with its breathless narration, describes how "across the river from New York City, a Jersey City volunteer air-defense observer reports that not only has he spotted a flying saucer in the nighttime sky over Manhattan, but that he's actually photographed it." What was it, really? We are left to wonder. A sampling of the billions of artifacts and documents in the National Archives is on view in the Public Vaults exhibit. See:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:25:46 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:59:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Rogerson >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:49:50 -0500 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:51:31 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:18:54 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>>>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:59:20 +1000 >>>>Subject: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>We only have Koury and his wife's word that this hair came in >>any anomalous way. How many private detectives have you hired to >>check into his life and character? >>Congratulations, Peter. You have just proved that you are at >>heart a fascist. >Last evening Peter's words set off an ethical trip-wire, thus my >blunt reflexive response, about which I have had second >thoughts. >As I have reflected on this since then, I have decided to >presume that this was his idea of a joke. On that presumption, I >withdraw my accusation, extend an apology, and offer some >further words of clarification. (All of the above are negated, >of course, if Peter Rogerson says he _wasn't_ joking.) <snip> In general its a rhetorical point, saying that ufologists have neither the time, resources or expertise or right to investigate the lives of witnesses to the extent that would be needed to really find out what makes them tick. In Chalker's case I really mean it. The guy must have put quite of money and a heck of a lot of of his reputation on the line here. Here is a case, which if it is not a straightforward hoax might be even more murky. Here is a guy who according to some accounts gets beaten up, and finds himself in shall we say a compromising position with a couple of ladies of easy virtue, while in an altered state of consciouness. Its a case of hoax or hooker. And if hooker, is it not more probable that she comes from the local area than from the lost city of Shamballa, a Zeta Reticullan zoo, a parallel universe or AD 10,000. If hoax then presumably K knows its owner, or knows someone who does. Either way a PI or such may be able to track the hair owner down and get to the bottom of the story Jerry if a guy cam up to you in a bar and asked you to ghost write his account of his steamy 10 year simultaneous affairs with Hilary Clinton and Condy Rice and all the politcal secrets he thereby learned, would you believe him, and what steps would you take to check his story
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: The Amazing Randi? - Burns From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:26:34 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:13:36 -0400 Subject: Re: The Amazing Randi? - Burns >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:12:41 EDT >Subject: The Amazing Randi? >If I recall several of you have had run ins with the world >famous James "Amazing" Randi. <snip> >Now that Phil Klass is gone on, if Randi's still around it would >be a good torch to pass. Greg, it would be nice to pass the torch to Randi, is that lit or unlit? But before the burning, lest we forget the fun that can be had with a good old Tar and Feathering as foreplay before the torch passing ceremony.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: An Open Question To The List - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:42:37 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:27:56 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - White >From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:17:03 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List <snip> >As I've stated, my purpose in posting was to play the devil's >advocate by noting that Ufology is, has been, and in all >probability will continue to be a "fringe" field because of the >public perception of the subject as the asylum for conspiracy >theorists and screwballs. I'm not sure that is true now. Over the past few years, I've heard surveys reported which definitely show otherwise. Numbers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder - Pope From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:06:22 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:30:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder - Pope >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:41:23 +0100 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >>From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 03:54:54 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope Britain's Fox Mulder >>Meanwhile, I take great issue with your repeated use of the word >>"magazine" to describe Magonia. To me this is a serious >>exaggeration which cannot go unchallenged. It seems to me that >>what you have is an ad hoc publication comprising empty polemic >>and little more. You may have edited the thing for years, but I >>can assure List Members that I know _far_ more about it than >>you. > Blimey, you've rumbled us. It's a fair cop, guv! Indeed. And as for your description of yourself as an "editor" - an egregious misrepresentation, over-inflating your limited role as somebody who does little more than co-ordinate the layout of an ad hoc series of articles. I'm joking, of course, as you and List Members realise. But there's a serious side to all this. The Ministry of Defence has been researching and investigating UFOs for over 50 years. Your bizarre aversion to my describing this work as a "project" might strike some as little more than pedantry - I think you prefer the phrase "ad hoc investigations" and I recall a previous exchange of emails where someone suggested something along the lines of "targeted research effort". I'm amused rather than offended by this, even though I suspect this wordsmithing is aimed at downplaying my role at the MOD. Unfortunately, this attitude has adverse consequences, because on the occasions when you _do_ make a serious point - as you did to John Velez on the issue of combating abductions - List Members may be reluctant to enter into a meaningful dialogue with you. Instead, they may wonder whether your questions are motivated by little more than a desire to score points, denigrate various List Members or mock certain people's beliefs. As it happens, I _don't_ believe that's your intention. But perhaps you can see how some people might suspect otherwise?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Filer's Files #34 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:41:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:36:53 -0400 Subject: Filer's Files #34 Filer's Files #34 2005, George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International August 17, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com UFO Hot Spots This week's files cover: Electric lights on Saturn, and Phillip Klass dies. UFOs were seen over Arizona, California, Florida, New Jersey, Ohio, and Virginia. Many sightings were also reported in Argentina, Australia, Canada, Crimea, France, Norway and the United Kingdom. The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world and in space. Many people claim it is impossible for UFOs to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep an open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate each week. I personally chased a UFO over England while in the Air Force and know something strange is in our skies. Electric Lights on Saturn This false-color image of Saturn in ultraviolet light shows the complete circle of an aurora around Saturn's South Pole and part of the aurora around its North Pole. From almost the beginning of the space age, plasma physicists have known that electric currents flow from regions high above Earth's equator to the auroral regions around the magnetic poles and that these circuits power the auroras. Presumably, Saturn's auroras are lit by similar circuitry. But conventional astrophysicists persist in describing auroras with meteorological metaphors: "hydrogen gas excited by electron bombardment" that responds to "changes in the solar wind." The inertia of prior belief in the dogma that "you can't get charge separation in space" obscures their perception that the charged particles they measure are in fact separated and that the movement of those charged particles in fact constitutes an electric current. From the measurements of charged-particle movements in Earth's plasma sheath, plasma physicists have mapped the complex electrical circuits that not only power the auroras but also generate magnetic storms, constitute the so- called radiation belts, likely produce Earth's magnetic field, and may drive the weather. Similar circuits but at a larger scale and with more power likely flow in Saturn's plasma sheath. They would be responsible for Saturn's auroras as well as it's polar hot spots, its storms Editor's Note =96 Electric and magnetic currents could be the basis of UFO propulsion systems. This would also explain why numerous UFOs have been reported hovering above power lines and power plants. Skeptic Philip Klass, a loyal opposition dies Philip J. Klass, 85 an electrical engineer who wrote seven books against the reality of UFOs passed away from prostate cancer on August 9, in Merritt Island, Florida. He was convinced that extraterrestrial UFOs did not exist and were various types of natural and explainable phenomena. I personally had many cordial conversations with him and respected his writing and debating skills. He worked for many years as a top editor at Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine. The magazine is often referred to as Aviation Leak, where numerous national secrets are released. Phil Klass apparently was aware of many of our experimental programs that were designed to build flying saucers such as the Silverbug Project and nuclear powered flying saucers. Mr. Klass appeared on numerous television shows as the loyal opposition. I was invited to speak on the Jackie Mason Television Show a few years ago in northern New Jersey and paid my own transportation costs. Phil was flown from Washington DC and arrived by a chauffeur driven limousine and most likely paid. He certainly was convincing and held his own against many UFO experts. Unfortunately he often belittled those who saw UFOs or claimed to be abducted.. Phil was part of the loyal UFO opposition for more than thirty years. I had many conversations with Phil, but he never wavered in his beliefs. I would send him photos and he would send me some of his own. He often made strong arguments on the veracity of alleged government documents. He offered a $10,000 prize to anybody who could provide solid scientific evidence of extraterrestrial visitations. It is still unclaimed. Arizona glowing orb photographed PARADISE VALLEY, SCOTTSDALE -- On July 22, 2005, at 2 AM, Victoria Liljenquist took photographs of a glowing orb. Victoria states, "As I was observing the night sky, I noticed a glowing orb in the distance. I watched the orb coming from the north, traveling southwest towards Mummy Mountain at the altitude of a low flying plane about a quarter of a mile from where I was sitting." The orb was photographed with 400 Fuji 35 mm film. Interesting, it has a textured energy. This sometimes appears in video footage when there is energies permeating around the UFO's. Thanks toVictoria Liljenquist - Phoenix, AZ www.victoriaslight.com Arkansas bright star BENTONVILLE -- Dr Jeffrey A. Busch writes, "A co-worker and I were looking for the planet Mars in the east and were amazed when we saw a very bright star disappear like a light snapped off. Then my friend noticed another light coming from the west that shone as a very bright light, then off, then on again as if signaling. Then the two simply were never seen again. This happened August 10, 2005. Thanks to Dr Jeffrey A. Busch. California Reagan Funeral UFO photos SACRAMENTO SATE CAPITOL -- On June 5, 2004, the witness Mr. Johnson arrived at the around 8:00 PM, reflecting on the Reagan legacy and expected their would be some type of memorial for the President at the Capitol. He brought his 4.0 Mega-pixel digital camera to record the historic events near a media tent on the Tenth Street side of the Capitol Building.. He began taking pictures with his 4.0 Mega-Pixal Still camera, at 8:07 PM, and kept shooting until sunset as the Capitol Building was illuminated with a very nice glow. He statrs, "I shot the Rotunda, and momentarily felt an electrical charge travel down my arm and down my back and I felt that I should not take any more pictures."He hoped his last picture did not come out blurry and headed for home. Twenty seven hours later he realized he had captured a rare anomaly. The object looks similar to the Moon, but moves a large distance between two frames taken 60 seconds apart. The object is round, gray/silver in color with several concentric rings or circles within the object, somewhat like a diffraction disk. When enlarged, the object has a central shape like a truncated pyramid, which could be a result of pixel enlargement . " MUFON investigator Chuck Reever writes, "The picture from Kamloops B. C. included in Filer's Files #33 report which appears as a "Diffraction Ring", is most similar to a report I completed for MUFON about two years ago. The balance of the picture is in focus which makes the object very strange. Only a perfect drop of water on a lens may be the origin of this photograph, and I am not certain of that. Thanks to Chuck Reever Mufon State Section Director Truckee, CA wizard.nul Florida flying stadium lights SARASOTA =96A large round object with 'stadium lights' flew over two cars on July 21, 2005, at 10:02 PM. The witness states, "My fianc=E9e and I were both driving separate cars when we both noticed an extremely fast moving object moving south across the road we were on." My fianc=E9e called me on my cell phone to verify what we saw. We turned down a small unlit road south towards our home when we both noticed an astronomical sized object just hovering literally right above our cars with beaming 'stadium light' shooting down at the road. I looked in the rear view mirror and suddenly it was gone. We both got on the cell phone again to verify what we saw." We looked on your website and found that there was another sighting here in Sarasota, on May 29, 2005. Narrative from William Puckett's Report from "UFO's Northwest" and UFO Roundup Vol. 10, #31, 08/03/05, Editor: Joseph Trainor http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup MILTON -- On Monday, July 11, 2005, at 8 PM, Ray Diaz and his neighbors had a UFO encounter about 20 miles northeast of Pensacola. Ray reported, he had a strange episode of "missing time." "There was no light in our neighborhood, no power because of Hurricane Dennis," he reported, "I'm still not sure if I was dreaming. I remember sitting outside on my deck at around 8 PM, and hearing the buzz of generators. "All of a sudden, everything got quiet so I looked up and saw a triangular object that was 100 feet wide at and flying not much higher than 70 feet. It almost blended into the sky because it was a black color, with a hint of gray, and the only lights were dim red lights on the bottom of each point of the triangle." Neighbors on both sides of me were looking up. Then we heard generators again. I felt very afraid and sick to my stomach." "The next thing I remember is waking up at 6 AM, the next morning." Ray added, "There was a large dim light on the edge of each point of the triangle, and the bottom of the object looked like there was an abundance of duct work along the bottom. These pipes seemed to be running at different angles." The UFO was flying at only five miles per hour." Thanks to UFO Roundup Vol. 10, #31, 08/03/05, Editor: Joseph Trainor, http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup New Jersey hot spot NORTH BERGEN -- Moviegoers across America have been flocking to the theaters to see Steven Spielberg's blockbuster "War of the Worlds," which was filmed around North Jersey. But while the movie is focused on a fictional alien invasion, there are a lot of people in North Bergen who believe there have been many local invasions and sightings of unidentified flying objects (UFOs) here over the last 30 years, most of which were centered on the southeastern end of North Hudson Braddock Park. The North Bergen sightings have been documented and reported to several different agencies, such as the National UFO Reporting Center in Seattle and the Center for UFO Studies in Chicago. In fact, since the initial sighting in 1975, there have been a total of 700 sightings or incidents involving North Bergen residents over the last 30 years - easily the highest total of reported incidents in the United States. These have far exceeded those in the more famous location of Roswell, N.M. or Hudson Valley, N.Y. and Gulf Breeze, Florida. - places that have had at least 500 sightings over the years. The UFO craze in North Bergen began in earnest on January 12, 1975, when a 72-year-old liquor store owner named George O'Barski was driving at 2:45 a.m. He began to experience some heavy static on his car radio. Then the radio went dead. When he glanced over his shoulder, he saw a round, flat object with glowing, rectangular windows that hovered behind his car. O'Barski later told federal officials that the object came to a stop about 100 feet ahead of his car. It was hovering 10 feet off the ground and was about 30 feet wide. It was flat at the bottom and brightly domed at the top. O'Barski said that a ladder came from the object, and somewhere between eight and 11 creatures, all looking identical, emerged. They were about three, perhaps four feet tall and all wore dark snow-suit like uniforms with helmets. Each had a small bag and a little shovel. They quickly scooped up soil samples, poured the samples into the little bags, and immediately got back onto the craft. ABC News anchor Peter Jennings did a special report on UFOs in November of 2004, and he hinted about the number of sightings in North Bergen, wondering if it was just coincidence or fact- based. The A&E special report also focused an entire hour on the North Bergen sightings, especially the famed O'Barski sighting that happened 30 years ago. In the ABC report, the network said that 50 percent of Americans believe that UFOs are real. Federal records of the reports have never been released to the public. Snip. Thanks to John Schuessler MUFON Director. New Jersey white UFO DUMONT -- It was 7:35 PM, on August 10, 2005, when I was walking out of a shop-rite in NJ. I looked up at the sky as there were absolutely no clouds, and it was quite beautiful. I looked at the moon (which always amazes me when I see it in daylight). As I looked at the moon, I saw a plane flying (probably coming from Newark), and above the plane I saw this white object, I could see that it was not a plane, as it had no wings, and there were other planes flying in the area. They all look dark gray as the sun was setting in the west, and I was following the object as it flew (more like glided) from southwest to east. All of the planes that I was looking at, as I mentioned appeared dark gray and I could see the red and green lights. This object was white and was definitely not a plane or a satellite. After five to ten minutes the object vanished from view heading east towards the Atlantic Ocean. Thanks to MUFON CMS http://www.mufon.com/ New York fighter aircraft circle UFOs ONEIDA LAKE =96 The witness noticed four fighter aircraft doing maneuvers and circling on August 7, 2005. Way up above them were several dots moving at high speeds, changing speeds and moving strangely. I was in my parent's camp in Sylvan Beach, when I came outside to do some yard work around noon, when four jets streaked by on a clear sunny day without clouds. I could hear the jets and realized they were circling. Before I could see the jets through the trees, I saw three objects flying at 30,000 feet. The jets were spread out seemed to be looking for the objects. The four shiny dots were flying erratically at high speeds, and varying speeds. Some did loops and sharp turns while making their way southeast. After the jets circled for the third time the objects were out of my view and the jets headed north and kept going. http://www.destinationspace.net/ufo/ufomag/ufomag1008.asp Ohio Do UFOs like trains? FOSTORIA -- George Ritter almost daily takes video of UFOs near his home in Fostoria so what is special about this town thirty miles south of Lake Erie? Fostoria is known as railroad hub and crossroads with traffic concentrated on three high-volume main lines. There is plenty of action and train buffs drive hundreds of miles to watch the busy train hub that is busier than ever, thanks to CSX's 42-percent acquisition of Conrail A triangle of steel rails cross each other not far from the city. So can speculate that the UFOs are keeping an eye on the railroad traffic and the busy F Tower that threads hundreds of trains through this complex iron triangle. During August, George has sent dozens of photos of UFOs of making impossible maneuvers. Those UFOs may like the sound of those train air horns ringing out, and the throb of a diesel engines that is almost always in the air. While residents may bristle when stopped by the flashing lights and lowered gates of a grade crossing, rail enthusiasts will delight in the seemingly endless parade of trains and UFOs just over the horizon. CSX's double-track Willard Subdivision, once part of Baltimore & Ohio's main line, runs East-West through Fostoria. North of town at the Fostoria Mixing Center, Ford Motor Company vehicles are brought in by train from assembly plants and sorted by destination, in much the same way that Federal Express sorts packages. Editor's Note: As a boy I watched trains for hours, joined the Air Force and flew for 5000 hours. Chased a UFO and have been chasing them ever since. Virginia Cylindrical/Spherical Object NORFOLK =96 The witness loves storm watching and on July 27th, 2005 at about 9 PM, he and his girlfriend saw a UFO in a cold front with severe thunderstorms. The wind was gusting up to 60 mph, with large hail stones and lightning when we noticed a bright star in between two parallel power lines that flickered violently between white and amber colors. They grabbed a video camera and took six minutes of film of a glowing object that ever so slowly hovers to the east and descends below the tree-line. Balls of light sometimes appear in storms due to the electrically charged atmosphere. To view: http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews =3Darticle =3D2900 Argentina UFOs, video and photos CORDOBA -- Ricardo E D'angelo reports, "A light pulse blue flash" was seen on July 24, 2005, at 8:29 PM. It was an intense blue color and flew east. The following day 8:39 PM, an intensive luminous field manifested suddenly and directly over the Glaucoart Observatory with a sheen of one meter. After some seconds the sheen decreased and it flew north. Later in the afternoon, and very striking object was caught on video flying east. RIO DE LA PLATA DELTA -- Abnormal lights, were also are observed over the Delta on August 6, 2005. About 7:30 PM, several fireball UFOs of intensive magnitude furrowed from the north and flew toward the southeast with lights flashing. Observing with binoculars, they were identified as flaps, of a UFO. On August 9, 2005, two UFOs appeared suddenly south of Cordoba and were captured on video. Video Footage can be viewed at: http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews =3Darticle =3D2987. Thanks to Ricardo E D'angelo for the reports. =A9 2005 Ricardo E D'angelo. Website http://www.glaucoart.com.ar/ Australia RF receiver picks up UFOs Paul Norman from the The Australian U.F.O. Bulletin writes, "We appreciate the information in your files. We are getting reaction with signal detectors when these objects are within 5 or 10 miles. We call the signal detectors our electronic 'bug' detector which is a Radio Frequency (RF) receiver, sensitive to the electromagnetic spectrum band, 500 MHz to 6 GHz. These devices are thought to be able to detect RF emissions from UFOs. Jacqui Purtell writes about her May 7 and 8 trip to the Grampians National Park in Australia. "After setting my detector to minimum sensitivity, I placed it on the dashboard. Within a few minutes I had a couple of the objects on camera and I started to record a video. As the light intensity of the objects increased the detector started to 'beep' slowly at first, but increasing in rate as the recording proceeded. "While significant RF energy was detected, and the most likely source would appear to have been the UFOs. I cannot yet completely rule out other possible coincidental sources. A mobile phone tower might be a possibility? Thanks to Jacqui Purtell and Paul Norman. NORTH QUEENSLAND -- Ross writes, "The attached picture was taken this year over my home near the Atherton Tablelands. I'm a blacksmith and there are many UFOs that fly over the area. These objects floated by silently from north to south at 10 PM. The metallic sheen was evident with the naked eye. I'm just up the road from "Tully" a place you will find that was one of the first ever to documented crop circles. Almost every day for the last five years I've witnessed UFOs flying over our area. I recently took old style infrared shots of orbs/earth lights as close as 200 meters away. You can see Ross's images at http://www.asoulartphenomena.com RAVENSHOE, QUENSLAND -- On Tuesday, July 19, 2005, at 3:30 a.m., Dina Holdcroft was driving on a lonely country road outside, in the far north of Australia's state of Queensland, when strange things began happening to her. "All at once, I heard unusual sounds on my car radio," she reported, "My mobile phone kept receiving messages so I picked it up and said, "Hello? But there was no response. "Suddenly, there was a light all about the car and the engine cut out for a split-second, then came back on, very powerful, like the battery was fully charged." An illuminated mist came all around the car. I heard a sound like Whhiiiiiiiiiirrrr." And that's all I remember. I had a lost, half an hour." Canada sightings increase PARKLAND, MANITOBA -- The witness was out on the lake near Riding Mountain National Park watching for three nights when he saw an elongated diamond shape white light on Friday, August 5, 2005, at 12:06 AM. He states, "Lots of animals were very active that night, and the light continued to increase in brightness to the point of causing me to squint, and I suddenly felt I was in a very bright spot light." The intensity took me totally off guard and it was a very, very bright white light. "I started to panic but then the light dimmed back to the original intensity and the elongated diamond shape was clearly visible again as it slowly began to move and suddenly shot straight up into the sky." The animals all fell quiet for that brief period. Thanks to Brian Vike SANDBANKS PROVINCIAL PARK -- Paul Shields writes, "I just viewed this picture of night orbs caught on film on August 1, 2005, at between 11 PM, to near midnight. I would like to say personally, it is one of the best I have ever seen. The picture was taken on the path, that I regularly take, to get to the beach for the last 11 years. This was taken by my son accompanied by his best friend. This was taken on the property of the Sandbanks Provincial Park, roughly 200-300 yards from the beach of Lake Ontario. I'm sure the picture before you, tells the rest of the story. One thing to note, this the area is where I have personally seen, a flying rod like creature and many UFO's through the years. There is a Military Base[Trenton] about 80 km's north, from the Sandbanks. This area is in the Prince Edward County, and one of the best beaches in Ontario. I'm sure you will be impressed by this picture, Thanks to Paul Shields. KAMLOOPS, B.C. -- Steven Rauchman writes, In reference to the July 8, 2005, beautiful anomaly-photo from Shelley in Kamloops, B.C., in last weeks files. I have come across a few others that seem to picture the identical object formation. And so, it appears to be not so much an anomaly as a rare sighting. Here are the web sites: This next one is from one year earlier, from elsewhere in B.C.: http://www.ufoevidence.org/photographs/section/recent/Photo240.h tm Two shots here: a video from England in 2000, and a still from ** NASA ** in 1996, with interesting accompanying text. I wonder what has happened to these visual records. Both seem to have been buried. http://www.ufocasebook.com/sharonrowlands.html Keep up the great work, and many thanks for your terrific newsletter. Thanks to Steven Rauchman, Toronto SANDBANKS PROVINCIAL PARK -- Paul Shields writes, "I just viewed this picture of night orbs caught on film on August 1, 2005, at between 11 PM, to near midnight. I would like to say personally, it is one of the best I have ever seen. The picture was taken on the path, that I regularly take, to get to the beach for the last 11 years. This was taken by my son accompanied by his best friend. This was taken on the property of the Sandbanks Provincial Park, roughly 250 yards from the beach of Lake Ontario. This the area is where I have personally seen, a flying rod like creature and many UFO's through the years. Thanks to Paul Shields Coquitlam, B.C. -- On August 6, 2005, - the six o'clock news just finished and I decided to scan the mountains, just to check for anything unusual and midway between Burke and Heritage Mountains, I noticed a brief shiny flash. I waited to see if it would appear again and was soon rewarded with another brief flash. I switched to my bigger binoculars that are mounted on a stand and much more stable. I quickly located the object again and it appeared to be a Mylar balloon, shiny on one side and dark on the other. I the realized this object was 20 or more feet in diameter so I set up my camera up and continued to track it for five minutes. It was moving much slower than a small plane and stopped to check out each ravine on Burke Mountain. It slowly drifted out into the V shaped gap and headed straight at me and was slowly getting bigger. Winlaw, BC -- On August 8, 2005, a bluish colored light hovers at 10:50 PM, in clear skies. My wife and I saw the bright bluish light that was as bright as an arc from a welders welding machine. The object was hovering over the ground about a thousand feet and slowly rose to a higher altitude, then it slowly disappeared towards the east. There was a mist or fine cloud moving behind it. As it moved eastward, the light picked up speed at a incredible rate and was gone. Thanks to Brian Vike Director HB CC UFO Research www.hbccufo.com Phone 250 845 2189 email: hbccufo.nul France bright light ESSONNE, MORSANG SUR ORGE -- On August 9, 2005, the witness was using his outdoor grill and saw the contrails left by the planes. The witness took my SONY Handycam 72X, super 8 band camera, and started to film the planes and noticed a star in full daylight! But contrary to stars, that one emits a sharp white light, it was OUEST-SUDOUEST around 75=B0 compared to the ground! I succeeded in filming the object, zooming in on it. The object was a luminous ball which emit depressions and which changes size at the same time! The space shuttle landed some minutes before the 14:12 sighting. Thanks to Brian Vike. Norway two oval shaped discs Moss Oslo =96 The witness was out on a night time walk on August 8, 2005, at 2:30 at night, when he suddenly heard a humming sound above him. He states, "I looked up and there was two oval shaped discs flying over me at about 450 meters. They just plunged through a few clouds that were there. They made no engine sound and I'm sure it was no plane. They had a silvery glow about them and like electromagnetic pulsing around them making a humming noise. They were flying slowly and made a spinning pulsing motion like electric current was surrounding it. After it disappeared in the night, I saw it reappear several seconds later, ascending at an even faster speed than when I first observed it. Thanks to Brian Vike Crimea sightings continue SIMFEROPOL --'On Thursday, August 4, 2005, while walking his dog on the Lenin Square Victor Zdorov saw a bright stationary continuously blinking red light for ten minutes. One interval lasted for two minutes, hovering to the northeast from 21:45 till 21:55 hours. It was totally soundless and all Simferopol'- based Mi-8 and Mi-2 helicopters were on ground at that time on Zavodskoye airfield. These red blinking, stationary hovering, lights are regular guests in the Crimean sky. SIMFEROPOL -- Victor Zdorov with his son Alexander, UFO researcher Vladimir P. Boyko and Stanislav V. Klimov on August 6, 2005, to a field near Svoboda, and spent the whole night watching the sky. The sky was clear, full of stars, without the Moon and the experienced observers around 10 PM, saw several bright flashes of white light in the Big Dipper the Constellation. The object was moving very fast, zigzagging across the sky, and emitted the flash of bright white light. The bright flashes of white or neon-bluish-white light continued in intervals of 15-20 minutes in different parts of the sky. A few minutes later at 10:02 PM, we saw a VERY bright object near Vega but much brighter than Venus or Sirius. It flashing by impulses and then flew away with big speed. Zdorov told that this is because of the activated pulsating engine of the alien spacecraft that was accelerating into space. Then at 23:02 the bright flash of light has occurred again towards northeast, and we saw the bright pulsating light that was stationary for a moment and then quickly zoomed up, obviously into space, making a sharp turn upward, with such incredible speed, acceleration and maneuverability that any reasonable skeptic must forget about satellites or aircrafts. At 1:48 AM, of August 7, 2005, new yellow light UFO's appeared, blinking for several seconds that were unlike navigational lights of any airplane. The speed of UFO was quite fast and gained altitude and departed to southeast, then suddenly died out like an electric lamp being switched off. At 3 AM, a UFO appeared near the planet Mars in the southeast and made complete circle before flying to southwest, towards the Black Sea. At 04:15 AM Victor Zdorov and Stanislav Klimov saw three bright yellow lights to the north flying across the sky one after the other in a horizontal line like trolley buses. The three other UFOs appeared. One to the right, one to the left, and one in the center. The right and left objects made sharp turns and flew to the opposite sides, like an air show demonstrating amazing maneuverability and speeds. Apparently, the objects were in space and entering the atmosphere over Crimea. There are numerous UFO landings and take-offs from the Crimean mountains making us wonder if this is a spaceport or alien base. Thanks to Dr. Anton A. Anfalov, Ph.D. an.nul UK =96 numerous triangles over Filey NORTH YORKSHIRE =96 There are mysterious goings-on in the Filey Triangle an eight-mile stretch of coastline could prove to be an extra-terrestrial tourist hotspot says Paul Jeeves. Legions of UFO enthusiasts from across the UK have descended on what has become the nation's prime location to witness strange and other- worldly shapes in the skies between Scarborough and Filey. They recorded at least 50 sightings of unidentified flying objects last year between the two seaside resorts, which now appear to have an increasing allure for extra-terrestrial visitors. This year, 85 more sightings have been reported and North Yorkshire is now considered the UFO spotting capital of Britain. Russell Kellett has found himself at the centre of the UFO mecca after moving to Filey. The 42-year-old had a bizarre close encounter at a railway crossing 17 years ago. Mr. Kellett was left with raw, red scarring on his hands, neck and face after he spotted a bright light hovering above him. He spends up to 15 hours each week scanning the skies above Yorkshire in the hope of capturing evidence of UFO activity on his video camera. The clear skies along the East Coast make the county an ideal hunting ground for UFOs. The close encounters in North Yorkshire last year include a multitude of UFO sightings in Filey, including sightings and video evidence of flying triangles emerging from the North Sea and videos of discs. Snip Thanks to Paul Jeeves pr.jeeves.nul PEAK DISTRICT -- On June 8, 2005, the observer was camping in Newhaven when he spotted and photographed an unusual cloud formation with imposing rays from the setting sun at 9.30 PM. Later that night just as we were about to go to bed in our tent, I looked up and saw a bright white erratic light. I pointed it out to my girlfriend as it sped across the sky and then stopped suddenly, then continued its journey until we couldn't see it any longer. In the countryside we could see literally thousands of stars filling the sky. My girlfriend saw another fast moving white light that was slightly dimmer than the one I saw but easy to make out once I had tracked it. As we sat there watching it (watching us?) another brighter light came from the south and was making a beeline towards the UFO we were observing. The one that was hovering started to move again along its original path. The new UFO got to a similar position and then it too stopped dead in its tracks. When I got the photo's of the cloud formation home I was shocked to discover that I had taken a picture of a flying disk sitting up above the clouds. http://images.modblog.com/files/mbgallery/48761/files/disc%20pho to.jpg Donate to Filer's Files to receive CD So you won't miss a single breaking news story or the increased evidence for UFO and life in the universe. Help solve the mysteries of the universe. We have been bringing you the latest in UFO news since 1995, on radio, television and the Internet. Your dollars do make a difference! We appreciate our loyal subscribers participation but we need everyone's help not just a few. Annual Membership is only $25 for 52 weekly intelligence reports. Don't miss the latest images of UFOs from Earth and Mars. Subscribe today and receive a free UFO Photo CD. Be sure to ask for the CD, Send check or money order to: George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055. You can also go to: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for majorstar.nul You may use Paypal, Visa, American Express, or Master Charge. REAL ESTATE Relocation Help! Get your free report and learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent to help you relocate, buy or sell a home. To get a free copy of this report e-mail me at: Majorstar.nul MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership includes the Journal and costs only $45.00 per year. To join MUFON or to report a UFO see http://www.mufon.com/. To ask questions contact MUFONHQ.nul Filer's Files is copyrighted 2005 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue. These reports and comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to majorstar.nul Sending mail automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION. God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: Adamski And The Straith Letter - Sheryl From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:38:21 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:50:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Adamski And The Straith Letter - Sheryl >From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:54:40 +0100 >Subject: Re: Adamski And The Straith Letter >>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:32:25 +1000 >>Subject: Adamski And The Straith Letter >snip< >If you are interested in the "Straith Letter" then you may want >to have a look at James Moseley's "Saucer Smear" website. >On a number of different pages on that website, Moseley >discusses how the Straith Letter "was a hoax perpetrated on >Adamski in 1957 by the late Gray Barker and your truly", and >refers to his "well-known published confession after Gray >Barker's death". He also comments on one person who "persisted >in believing the letter authentic", commenting that "The Will to >Believe is not easily killed!". <snip> Hi Isaac, Jerry, Diane & list, Thank you for the links you provided. I very much appreciate you taking the time to do so. I'm fascinated by the feedback I've received so far, on list but mostly off list. What I'm surprised by with the off list response is to find interest in the contactees is still alive and well after all, its just hiding in the closet. How can that be in the 21st century?? How did it get this way? The welcome or unwelcome response to certain types of reports has to skew research findings and/or perspectives of the UFO phenomena, surely. >From what I understand, when interest in the contactee accounts was high (1950s/60s) not too many abduction accounts (whatever we might think they are) were being reported, yet from what I read there are people still coming forward today reporting abduction accounts from their childhood in the 1930s and 40s. (I received a report myself from a woman dating back to the 1930s only last month) So at the time of the contactee "era" there were abduction accounts but they weren't "welcome". Conversely, I wonder if the same thing might be happening today with contactee reports?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Conscious Memories In Mcnally's Subjects? From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:53:20 -0400 Subject: Conscious Memories In Mcnally's Subjects? Conscious Memories In Mcnally's Subjects Or Quasi-Hypnotic Only? List, recently Bill Chalker wrote a message on this List in which he noted that the "experiencer" subjects who had been studied by Harvard's Richard J. McNally, Ph.D. and Susan Clancy (then a doctoral student) had not had conscious recollection of any of their alien encounters. In an off-list exachange I questioned that assertion, since I know it wasn't true for myself nor for a couple other experiencers I knew who took part in the study. That led me to review the versions of the McNally paper that I've seen. I wanted to see where it was stated that none of the subjects had conscious memories. I haven't yet found a statement wherein they assert that to be the case, and it may very well be that Chalker was looking at a different version of the study (or perhaps even a different study by the same people?). But I did find that the best-known McNally paper seems not to directly address this rather relevant matter of whether the subjects had conscious recollections of any of their experiences. Below is my email to Chalker which details the results of my fruitless search through McNally's paper for this information. It is either an illustration of how a skeptical researcher takes care not to mention things which undercut his bias, or, maybe I just skim articles badly and have missed it. I want to take a chance that it is an example of the former, and present my findings to you all now: Hi Bill. My plan has been to wait until Clancy's book comes out so I can really understand exactly what she means, what she believes, about her and McNally's research. Because I have to admit that the condensed language of a scientific paper is difficult to understand. It is particularly difficult to know if errors in what they are saying are intentional misrepresentations, or if their effort to be brief has led them to misrepresentations. I'm aware the McNally and Clancy have published several papers (or variations of existing papers) in several journals now. I am suspecting that perhaps we are referring to different papers, as I cannot find a statement to the effect that none of the subjects had conscious memories of at least some of their alien encounter experiences. I've only seen the published paper called "Psychophysiological Reponding During Script-Driven Imagery in People Reporting Abduction by Space Aliens," and also the longer original draft (which was provided to me by a reporter who McNally had provided it to in advance of its publication). Bill, I do not find the quotes you used in that paper, so we must be looking at different papers. In this version, on page 494 they say: "Eight of the 10 abductees had undergone quasi-hypnotic sessions during which mental health professionals helped them recover detailed 'memories' of alien encounters." But it does not say, anywhere that I can find, how many of those also had conscious recollection of their encounters. Looking at the original draft (the unpublished version, from before the paper was edited down for that journal), the same passage reads: "With the aid of quasi-hypnotic memory recovery techniques, 80% of the abductees reported recovering FURTHER, detailed memories of alien encounters..." (emphasis mine). So the published version implies that 2 of the subjects had memories in a way other than through quasi-hypnotic therapy - which can only mean they either had conscious memories all along, or that they had spontaneous recall in a non-therapeutic setting. The unpublished version reveals that the other 8 also were not limited to having memories via quasi-hypnotic therapies either, again implying that they either had conscious memories all along, or had spontaneous recall in a non-therapeutic setting. But again he takes pains to omit the simple data of how many had conscious recollections from the get go. Reading on in the original draft, there is another sentence which seems to imply that the experiencers had conscious recollections - but this information is only provided in a backhanded way, amid McNally's assertion that alien encounters are episodes of sleep paralysis. The sentence reads: "All abductees had experienced frightening episodes of sleep paralysis accompanied by hypnopompic hallucinations, and half of then cited one or two of these episodes as their most stressful abduction-related experiences." Because moments of sleep paralysis aren't typically things one forgets - unless one is simply sleepy and tends not to notice or care, it seems as if McNally may be implying that conscious recollections of what the subjects felt were alien encounters were present in "all" ten of them, and that "five" of them had conscious memories of more than one such experience. McNally is maddenly vague, isn't he? Was it this vagueness that left the impression in some readers that the subjects only had memories thanks to "quasi- hypnotic techniques"? Or is there another paper by him and Clancy? Bill, thanks for giving me an opportunity to read through these
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: An Open Question To The List - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:32:38 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:55:04 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Ledger >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:36:02 -0300 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List I got this email "off list" from Bob Renaud. "Sir: Are you normally such an ass****? Don't bother replying. Your email address is blocked." At least he called me "Sir". Incidentally, Bob, my wife responded to your query with, "Not normally, but you have your moments". I've been married to her
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: Out-Klassed - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 00:19:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:08:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Out-Klassed - Maccabee >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 02:37:02 EDT >Subject: Re: Out-Klassed >>From: Terry Blanton <commengr.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:59:17 -0400 >>Subject: Out-Klassed >>Arguing with Phil was like wrestling a pig in mud. You >>eventually realize the pig is enjoying it. >Terry, Listers, I> had my own personal encounters with Uncle Phil, over the phone >and in writing and found him to be interesting. For me he was >another skeptibunker, meaning that no matter what evidence came >forward, he would throw out any explaination and that explained >it away... meaning explain it away at all costs. >So in honor of Uncle Phil, we have below the skeptibunker rules >of engagement: >1) All sightings of UFOS can be explained with some explaination >other then true UFO >2) Any explaination will do, planets, weather balloons, hoax, >and so forth.. it really doesn't matter because... I have long stated my "First Rule for Debunkers": Any (published) explanation is better than none. Then there is the first corollary: if the first explanation seems unconvincing, try a publishing a second. The second corollary is that if the second explanation doesn't work try a third. You can probably imagine what the third corollary is (etc.). >.3) Other skeptics will never challenge skeptical theories put >forth by their colleagues, but instead will quietly advance >their own, then blathering that the sighting now has two >explainations, one from skeptic X and the other from Skeptic Y Skeptics act as if the more explanations there are the more likely a sighting is to be explained. The leads to my Theory of the Failure of Multiple Explanation: the more explanations are proposed the LESS likely it is that any one of the explanations is correct. This is because an abundance of explanations indicates that no single explanation was convincing and the skeptics really don't know what happened during the sighting. >4) All witness testimony is to be totally disbelieved and >scorned, UNLESS a witness sights something like a meteor, says i>ts a meteor, then the witness is to be believed and taken at >their word. >5) If a witness compares a UFO sighting with something they >know, such as "The UFO looked like a bright Star", or "It was a >bright as the full moon.." you can instantly explain away said >sighting as Stars or moon. A perfect example of this is in the 1949 Rogue River case. One female witness compared the size of the object to a C47. Although the object was desribed as being round like a coin seen on edge, the official Blue Book explanation provided by the AFOSI investigator was "aircraft". See:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: Adamski And The Straith Letter - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:19:16 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:31:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Adamski And The Straith Letter - Kaeser >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:58:25 -0500 >Subject: Re: Adamski And The Straith Letter <snip> >All over the world Adamski's followers were claiming >vindication. South African UFO enthusiast Edgar Sievers declared >the letter to be a "decisive document on imminent developments >on this planet." Wilbert B. Smith, a Canadian radio engineer who >earlier had been involved in an official UFO project, told >[Donald E.] Keyhoe, after the latter expressed skepticism about >the document, that he "knew" the Straith letter to be authentic, >because someone of his acquaintance knew the man personally. >Straith was working in a "supersecret agency partly under State >Department control." C. A. Honey stated flatly that through his >and Adamski's efforts, "Straith was located." More than two >decades later, looking back on the controversy, [Lou] Zinsstag >and [Timothy] Good concluded that while "much of the evidence is >circumstantial ... on balance there is more in favor of the >letter['s] being genuine." >Others felt otherwise. Adamski critic Lonzo Dove believed that >the "Straith letter," as it would be called in flying-saucer >lore, was written on the typewriter of Gray Barker, a well-known >publisher and promoter of contactee materials. Other noted >ufologists of the period, including [Isabel] Davis and [Coral] >Lorenzen, came to the same conclusion. Dove went so far as to >submit a detailed article documenting his findings, but Saucer >News editor Jim Moseley refused to publish it. For years >afterwards rumors circulated that Barker (who died in 1984) and >Moseley had conspired to write the letter, and in 1985 Moseley >confessed as much: >"For many years, your editor used to visit Gray Barker in >Clarksburg, West Virginia, for a weekend every few months.... On >one particular occasion ... a young friend of Barker's [James >Villard] with a relative high in the Government had provided >Barker with a packet of genuine official stationery from various >Government agencies... Barker and I wrote not one but _seven_ >... naughty letters that evening - emboldened by the evil of >alcohol and fully enjoying the hilarity of this chance to thrown >long-term Confusion into the UFO field." Barker was an interesting charactor in the UFO genre, and the Harrison County Public Library in Clarkesburg, West Virginia has his papers available for review during the week. Following construction of a new libary building in the 90's, a decision was made to use a room in the former libarary as the "Gray Barker Room". It's open by appointment only, so it would be advantageous to call before you drop in.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:50:26 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:33:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Clark >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:25:46 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:49:50 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:51:31 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:18:54 +0100 >>>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>>>>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:59:20 +1000 >>>>>Subject: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>As I have reflected on this since then, I have decided to >>presume that this was his idea of a joke. On that presumption, I >>withdraw my accusation, extend an apology, and offer some >>further words of clarification. (All of the above are negated, >>of course, if Peter Rogerson says he _wasn't_ joking.) >In general its a rhetorical point, saying that ufologists have >neither the time, resources or expertise or right to investigate >the lives of witnesses to the extent that would be needed to >really find out what makes them tick. In Chalker's case I really >mean it. That's too bad, Peter. I really was trying to think the best of you. I confess, however, to no surprise. You really do have the primitive - not to mentional puritanical - mindset that I had heretofore encountered only in the late Mr. Klass. If I had to choose between Bill Chalker's account of Peter K., whom he has now known for years and whose reputation as a capable field investigator is among the highest, and yours, based on airy speculation and, beyond that apparently, psychic reading, there's no contest. In any event, what matters is the curious and anomalous DNA sample, which renders armchair guesswork like yours irrelevant. Why are you so threatened by the notion that we may learn something new? >The guy must have put quite of money and a heck of a >lot of of his reputation on the line here. Here is a case, which >if it is not a straightforward hoax might be even more murky. >Here is a guy who according to some accounts gets beaten up, and >finds himself in shall we say a compromising position with a >couple of ladies of easy virtue, while in an altered state of >consciouness. Its a case of hoax or hooker. And if hooker, is it >not more probable that she comes from the local area than from >the lost city of Shamballa, a Zeta Reticullan zoo, a parallel >universe or AD 10,000. If hoax then presumably K knows its >owner, or knows someone who does. Either way a PI or such may be >able to track the hair owner down and get to the bottom of the >story This is just plain wrong. The question is moot, in any case, for reasons Bill has tried to explain to you. You don't seem to understand the technical issues, I'm afraid. Not being trained in these areas, I confess that I, too, struggle to understand them fully, but at least I know better, given my ignorance, than to presume to lecture Bill, who does know his stuff, on the issue. It ought to be a rule of thumb for us liberal-arts majors - that includes you as well as me - to let the scientifically trained do their work without guidance from us. >Jerry if a guy cam up to you in a bar and asked you to ghost >write his account of his steamy 10 year simultaneous affairs >with Hilary Clinton and Condy Rice and all the politcal secrets >he thereby learned, would you >believe him, and what steps would you take to check his story? None. I wouldn't believe him. I believe the spelling is Condi, by the way, not Condy - not that it matters. Of UFO encounters all we know is that strange things can and do happen within them. Of earthly matters we know considerably more, and the claim uttered above is absurd, and likely all but impossible, on its face. >PS Do you believe Ed Walters? What is Walters's name doing here? What does my opinion - negative, if it's relative to anything, which I doubt - have to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:41:43 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:35:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Clark >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:25:46 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:49:50 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? <snip> Peter, >Here is a guy who according to some accounts gets beaten up, and >finds himself in shall we say a compromising position with a >couple of ladies of easy virtue, while in an altered state of >consciouness. Its a case of hoax or hooker. And if hooker, is it >not more probable that she comes from the local area than from >the lost city of Shamballa, a Zeta Reticullan zoo, a parallel >universe or AD 10,000. If hoax then presumably K knows its >owner, or knows someone who does. Either way a PI or such may be >able to track the hair owner down and get to the bottom of the >story Allow me to add this observation to my earlier post: Based on nothing at all except your conviction that no such thing as described (sexual interaction with an alien or hybrid being) could ever have happened, you throw the sleaziest charges against the informant, informing us, with no evidence beyond psychic reading, that he consorts with prostitutes. Implicitly following, of course, is the implication that such an individual could therefore never tell the truth about anything. It is one thing, of course, to state that the claim defies belief and to leave it there. It is indeed hard to believe, as high-strangeness UFO claims are by definition. It is quite another to make up stuff to smear the claimant just because what he says makes you uncomfortable. In that case you are obliged to produce actual evidence to document your charges against his honesty and character. Yes, Peter, even pelicanists are answerable that elemental obligation, at least if they expect to be taken seriously and not to be judged mere character assassins. I confess, however, that I have a certain fondness that reference to the witness' having had sex with prostitutes "in an altered state of consciousness." I presume that you don't mean mere drunkenness, or you would have said so. What I wonder, though, is this: how does one _pay_ a hooker, let alone find one to invite into one's home, when one is in an altered state of consciousness? This is an issue which, I'm sure, we may expect many Magonia articles to explore in detail. May we also confidently expect that Magonians will congratulate themselves on having now solved
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: Conscious Memories In Mcnally's Subjects? - From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:38:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Conscious Memories In Mcnally's Subjects? - >From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul> >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:08:00 -0700 (PDT) >Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:53:20 -0400 >Subject: Conscious Memories In Mcnally's Subjects? >Conscious Memories In Mcnally's Subjects Or >Quasi-Hypnotic Only? >List, recently Bill Chalker wrote a message on this >List in which he noted that the "experiencer" subjects >who had been studied by Harvard's Richard J. McNally, >Ph.D. and Susan Clancy (then a doctoral student) had >not had conscious recollection of any of their alien >encounters. >In an off-list exachange I questioned that assertion, >since I know it wasn't true for myself nor for a >couple other experiencers I knew who took part in the >study. >That led me to review the versions of the McNally >paper that I've seen. I wanted to see where it was >stated that none of the subjects had conscious >memories. I haven't yet found a statement >wherein they assert that to be the case, and it may >very well be that Chalker was looking at a different >version of the study (or perhaps even a different >study by the same people?). Ok, I've got some clarification from Susan Clancy herself that should explain why some people (not just Chalker by the way) had the impression that the subjects that Clancy and McNally worked with had no conscious memories of their alien encounters. We were indeed looking at two different studies, conducted by the same researchers, at the same time, with some of the same experiencer subjects but some different experiencer subjects. "In the memory study," Clancy explains, "I interviewed two groups of people. Those who believed they were abducted, but had no actual autobiographical memories (referred to as the repressed group) and those, like you, who had autobiographical experiences (recovered group)." "Out of the recovered group subjects, what makes them 'recovered' is that there was a period of time in between when the events happened, and when the subjects had an autobiographical memory (details, narrative structure, etc) of what happened to them." Though it is true that all her subjects had some recovered memories, I think Clancy made a simple error in assuming that they did not also have conscious memories. Perhaps she simply did not gather enough biographical information to know that. But that error may have been limited to only her error with me, because Clancy clarifies that the people in her experiment were _not_ all the same individuals as in McNally's study. Therefore I cannot say (as I could when referring to Rich McNally's experiement) that there were at least three people who had conscious memories. "Regarding the subject overlap between the memory study and Rich's study, there were a few people who participated in both, but most of my memory subjects did _not_ participate in Rich's study (they didn't want to get hooked up to 'equipment')." So there is the explanation why some people say that the McNally/Clancy subjects had no conscious memories of their encounters: Some are referring to the Clancy/McNally word- association test, and some are referring to the McNally/Clancy psychophysiology experiment. Recapping: Clancy asserted that there were no subjects with conscious recollections in her word-list experiment (the associative memory experiment) which was published as: "Memory Distortion in People Reporting Abduction by Aliens" by Susan Clancy, Richard McNally, Daniel Schacter, Mark Lenzenweger & Roger Pitman, Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 20023, Vol.111, No.3, 455-461. Whereas, whether subjects had conscious recollections or not was - unbelievably - left unstated by McNally in the psychophysiology paper that was published as: "Psychophysiological Reponding During Script-Driven Imagery in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: An Open Question To The List - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:41:41 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:44:11 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Hall >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:06:33 +0200 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:20:04 -0400 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>Lastly, I'm not the one that needs convincing. The people out >>in the real world are the ones that need to be reached. Go to >>it, with my blessings. After all, your facts should sell >>themselves, n'est-ce pas? >They won't sell because there is no worse deaf man than the one >who does not want to hear, which is still the case of many in the >intellectual and scientific world. N'est-ce pas? >But quite a few of them know better, silently (I have some >examples in France). Gildas, Exactly right! There also is, and has been for decades, a scientists' underground in the U.S. strongly convinced that UFOs are real and important, but they are totally intimidated by the ridicule that emanates from their ill-informed, dogmatic colleagues and by lack of political or public support for legitimate studies of UFOs. People like me have been presenting hardcore evidence to scientists and other opinion-makers in society for decades; they don't listen. In fact, they refuse to even consider UFOs as a hypothetical possibility. Mr. Renaud apparently has no
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: An Open Question To The List - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:53:06 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:45:52 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Kaeser >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:42:37 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:17:03 -0400 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List ><snip> >>As I've stated, my purpose in posting was to play the devil's >>advocate by noting that Ufology is, has been, and in all >>probability will continue to be a "fringe" field because of the >>public perception of the subject as the asylum for conspiracy >>theorists and screwballs. >I'm not sure that is true now. Over the past few years, I've >heard surveys reported which definitely show otherwise. Numbers >like from around 50 to 80 percent of the general public >believing at the very least that UFOs _may_ be ET craft. Unfortunately, we all tend to refer to these generic surveys without actually looking at the questions asked and the actual details. There is a large percentage of people who are open to the idea of alien visitation, but I believe a far fewer number actually believe that Earth has already been visited. I believe a majority of people believe that there are unknown objects that have been seen in the sky, but only a segment of that group believe that they're ships under intelligent control. On the other hand, I'm not convinced that the general public has a negative impression of ufology, or views it at a "fringe" science. Certainly the Internet has brought the subject to the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Frison From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:03:46 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:48:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Frison >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:25:46 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >Its a case of hoax or hooker. And if hooker, is it >not more probable that she comes from the local area than from >the lost city of Shamballa, a Zeta Reticullan zoo, a parallel >universe or AD 10,000. If hoax then presumably K knows its >owner, or knows someone who does. Either way a PI or such may be >able to track the hair owner down and get to the bottom of the >story It's either a hoax or a hooker, eh? You seem pretty sure there are only two possible explanations. (Actually, you think there is only one possible explanation, since if it's a hooker's hair then that makes it a hoax.) Sure, the hair apparently is human and Bill has heard that before. I've already said that to him when I questioned if it should be referred to as "hair of the alien" considering the verdict of the DNA testing. However, you don't leave room for any other explanation. Khoury could be lying or he could be, for instance, confusing his mental world with reality as a result of his head injury. But there could be other scenarios - very anomalous ones - that could result in a human hair being found where it was. There are more things, Horatio! It's a UFO investigator's job to determine if a witness is credible or not and if a witness is hoaxing or not! Any UFO investigator worth his/her salt doesn't have to 'pass the buck' and hire private investigator's to do his/her own job. Bill Chalker has done a proper job of assessing Khoury. Could he be wrong about Khoury? Yes, of course! That's why he resists drawing conclusions based on this one case and instead wants to see the forensic approach applied in other cases to see if similiar findings result. The 'oriental component' in Khoury's case is enough to keep it on the table for further analysis. It's not the first time an 'oriental' has allegedly been involved in a UFO or abduction event. There's a difference between a witness and a suspect! There's a difference between an interview and an interrogation. A witness is someone who has seen, heard, etc. some or all of an alleged event and can possibly provide information that may be important to someone interested in the event - you interview him/her. A suspect is someone who may have committed some action, usually criminal, in which case they may be deceptive or uncooperative - you interrogate him/her. But until a witness gives you some reason to question their integrity, you don't make them a suspect. That doesn't mean you, as an investigator, believe the testimony the witness provides purely on faith and that you don't go out and do other investigative work to either confirm or refute what the witness has provided. UFO witnesses are not criminals; they're not suspects. As Jerry Clark said, it makes the skin crawl to think they would be subjected to private investigators after reporting an event. They can be assessed without this - any competent UFO researcher can accomplish this without resorting to such inappropriate measures. When someone who reports a UFO event is determined to be a fraud or a con artist, etc. they then can be viewed more as a suspect because they are, as a matter of fact, committing acts of fraud against the UFO community and public - and they make the choice to do so. If their cons and frauds are criminal offences then they, like every other offender, become open to the scrutiny of the police and private investigators. Most 'Private Investigators' are usually bent on chasing to ground something criminal or immoral. They have that mindset! They aren't trained in ufological matters. I doubt they could come close to doing a proper job here. Most UFO witnesses aren't criminals. They're not offenders! Don't treat them like they are! The police assess witnesses everyday and they rarely do so by using the same methods they apply in dealing with suspects and perps. For instance, when the police arrive at a traffic accident scene which occurred as a result of 'drunk driving', witnesses at the scene don't get run through the police computers for possible criminal records, they aren't subjected to background checks and credit checks, etc. - they are not treated like criminals. But the police don't rely exclusively on the witness testimony they gathered at the scene; their traffic investigation and reconstruction team comes in and does the necessary supporting investigation. Even the police give witnesses the respect and privacy they deserve and that they have a right to, and they do so when investigating something as significant as crime. Do UFO investigators have a mandate that justifies them using tactics that even the police don't employ against witnesses?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: Conscious Memories In Mcnally's Subjects? - From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 02:13:28 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:51:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Conscious Memories In Mcnally's Subjects? - >From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:08:00 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Conscious Memories In Mcnally's Subjects? >Conscious Memories In Mcnally's Subjects Or Quasi-Hypnotic Only? >List, recently Bill Chalker wrote a message on this List in >which he noted that the "experiencer" subjects who had been >studied by Harvard's Richard J. McNally, Ph.D. and Susan Clancy >(then a doctoral student) had not had conscious recollection of >any of their alien encounters. >In an off-list exachange I questioned that assertion, since I >know it wasn't true for myself nor for a couple other >experiencers I knew who took part in the study. >That led me to review the versions of the McNally paper that >I've seen. I wanted to see where it was stated that none of the >subjects had conscious memories. I haven't yet found a statement >wherein they assert that to be the case, and it may very well be >that Chalker was looking at a different version of the study (or >perhaps even a different study by the same people?). >But I did find that the best-known McNally paper seems not to >directly address this rather relevant matter of whether the >subjects had conscious recollections of any of their >experiences. Hi Will I'm not sure if this is what your looking for? Go to this link: News in the Harvard Gazette 3 years ago http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/10.31/09-clancy.html In the end, Clancy rounded up enough subjects for two groups of people who believed they were abducted by aliens: one group of abductees who reported recovering memories of their experience, and [one group who had no actual memory of the abduction.] This second group attributed a variety of signs and symptoms - unexplained scars or birthmarks, waking up in strange positions, depression, sleep disturbance, or panic at seeing a picture of an alien - to what they believed was their own alien abduction.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: Curried Meatballs And Alien Abduction - Pope From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:57:47 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:53:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Curried Meatballs And Alien Abduction - Pope The Scotsman picked up on this story on August 15, as posted on this List, but here's the source of their article, from the MOD's website: http://news.mod.uk/news_headline_story2.asp?newsItem_id=3474 I've seen some disparaging remarks about the style and content of UFO-related FOIA requests made to the MOD. Before being too harsh, critics should bear in mind that some of these requests may be from children. When running the MOD's UFO Project I received quite a few letters from children engaged on school projects on UFOs.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 18 Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:39:59 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:55:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:35:30 -0400 >Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:05:31 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>What do you think is necessary for the perpetrators to be >>brought to book? I assume that first of all you will ask us to >>accept that what you are reporting is NOT "something other than >>what we are reporting", but after that, in what way can we >>ensure that the perpetrators do not 'get away with it'? >>I appreciate that you might find it suspicious that a noted >>pelicanist Magonian is asking this question, and may assume that >>I am only looking for some way to question your experiences. I >>assure you that I am not, and >I don't mind anyone asking 'questions', I only object when it >degenerates into condescension and thinly veiled insults. I will >answer to your question in the following way. If you were to >post a guard or monitoring devices at all the entrances of a >house that was being repeatedly burglarized, one of two things >is going to happen: a. you will eventually catch the thieves at >work, or the burglaries will stop because the perpetrators do >not wish to get caught red-handed -so to speak. There was a suggestion on this List some time ago that Dick Hall was involved with a group who were doing something like this. Have you heard anything more of it? Have you yourself tried any form of monitoring like this, using CCTV or similar? I understand that there have been some attempts to monitor repeated abductees under controlled conditions, but these have been inconclusive. In some cases it seems that the subjects themselves turned the CCTV off. This might indicate a hoax, or that the subject was being in some way controlled by the abductors. It would seem therefore that any guard or monitoring device would have to be controlled remotely from the subject, or totally automatic. >I always felt that a detailed scientific examination and >'monitoring' of abduction victims would not only provide >reliable answers and information about the abductions, but that >the spin-off benefit for the abductee would be similar to what I >described above; the abductors would get caught red-handed or, >they would stop. It was just a 'hope' of mine. The main thrust >of it has always been just get a multi-disciplinary >investigation happening. Period. >What did you think I meant? Something along those lines. The late Phil Klass suggested that abductions should be regarded as crimes (I know he had his own agenda for saying this, but the point has validity) and the normal crime prevention and detection agencies should become involved. Do you think this is practical? >>I really am interested in your >>comment, which seems counter to the defeatist attitudes of some >>other abductees and abduction researchers that there is no way >>to challenge the abducting agencies. >If I didn't fight to keep some hope of relief alive, I would >have sunk into a deep depression at the thought of complete >helplessness. I have a wife and children that have been affected >by this. Imagine the feeling of frustration and sheer impotence >of not to be able to protect or defend my dearest loved ones, my >wife and my kids, from harm. I'm made of sterner stuff, John. >I'll go down fighting this to my last breath. If there is a way >to stand against it... I will find it. For me, one way to fight >back has been to warn others and raise the awareness of the >public by standing on this corner shouting at the top of my >lungs, "They've landed! They've landed!" ;) The problem I have with this, is that the powers of the abductors, if they are physical beings - please forgive me for that caveat, but I am a pelicanist, after all ;) - seem to be limitless, and as I have said before, almost magical. So any conventional means we might use to counter them would be futile if that is the case. I would like to ask, do you see some weakness, an Achilles Heel, where they might be vulnerable? Thank you for responding to my enquiry so openly. I can assure you that any further discussion on this topic will certainly not descend into thinly veiled insults. I feel it important that even though we have very different views on this matter, there are certain aspects that can be discussed objectively without either of us being forced to compromise our positions.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 19 Re: An Open Question To The List - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:18:21 -1000 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:39:10 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Salla >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:41:41 +0000 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:06:33 +0200 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List > >>>From: Bob Renaud <brenaud.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:20:04 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>Lastly, I'm not the one that needs convincing. The people out >>>in the real world are the ones that need to be reached. Go to >>>it, with my blessings. After all, your facts should sell >>>themselves, n'est-ce pas? >>They won't sell because there is no worse deaf man than the one >>who does not want to hear, which is still the case of many in the >>intellectual and scientific world. N'est-ce pas? >>But quite a few of them know better, silently (I have some >>examples in France). >Gildas, >Exactly right! There also is, and has been for decades, a >scientists' underground in the U.S. strongly convinced that UFOs >are real and important, but they are totally intimidated by the >ridicule that emanates from their ill-informed, dogmatic >colleagues and by lack of political or public support for >legitimate studies of UFOs. >People like me have been presenting hardcore evidence to >scientists and other opinion-makers in society for decades; they >don't listen. In fact, they refuse to even consider UFOs as a >hypothetical possibility. Mr. Renaud apparently has no >understanding of the difficulty of the task. Gentlemen, your analysis of the situation considerably simplifies the problem confronting UFO research to a slumbering public and sceptical scientific community that ignore the evidence provided by valient UFO researchers replicating the methodology of Allen Hynek, James McDonald, Stanton Friedman, etc. This ignores the role of national security agencies in deliberately sabotaging UFO research by intimidating witnesses, removing evidence, controlling mainstream media, altering records, etc. In short, without a systematic political analysis of the national security system that distorts data collection and analysis, your efforts to present more evidence to persuade a sceptical scientific community will continue to be fruitless. Simply saying that the government deliberately lies is not enough to get UFO research moving in the right direction. There needs to be analysis of how extensively the national security system distorts data collection and analysis, and whether a 'hard' vs 'soft' cover up exists. There is a need for concerted political action to meet head on the national security system set up to keep the public and the scientific community in the dark about UFOs/ETH. The emphasis on more data collection and analysis will not be enough and simply continues a failed approach promoted by a small clique of 'scientists' convinced that better collection and analysis methods will be sufficient. A dual approach of concerted political analysis and action is the way forward since there are entrenched political and national security factors that prevent the general public and scientific community from learning the truth. I suggest that the biggest obstacle to UFO research is the attempt by veteran ufologists to impose a failed 'scientific' methodology upon those awakening to the truth of the political 'cover up' in place.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 19 Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:23:32 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:40:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:39:59 +0100 >Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:35:30 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:05:31 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers <snip> >The problem I have with this, is that the powers of the >abductors, if they are physical beings - please forgive me for >that caveat, but I am a pelicanist, after all ;) - seem to be >limitless, and as I have said before, almost magical. So any >conventional means we might use to counter them would be futile >if that is the case. I would like to ask, do you see some >weakness, an Achilles Heel, where they might be vulnerable? John, As better qualified people than me have already said, a civilization even one thousand years (or more) ahead of us will have technology we must and will think of as `magic'. Cheers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 19 Alabama Town Celebrates Time UFOs Came From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:44:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:44:04 -0400 Subject: Alabama Town Celebrates Time UFOs Came Source USA Today http://tinyurl.com/dktft 8/18/200 Alabama Town Celebrates The Time UFOs Came To Visit FYFFE, Ala. (AP) =97 Once it seemed like everyone on Earth and beyond was watching this northeast Alabama town. A string of UFO sightings spawned international media coverage and a mini-industry in Fyffe in early 1989, with hundreds of people showing up to gaze into the night sky in search of flying saucers. Or whatever. Flying objects will be back in Fyffe this weekend, but none are unidentified. Playing off its fame, the city of 971 people is staging a UFO =97 "Unforgettable Family Outing" =97 featuring hot- air balloons. Melissa Hildreth, co-chair of the committee that planned the UFO Days Festival, said Fyffe thought it was time to capitalize on the notoriety it received when so many people thought they had spotted flying saucers overhead. "We are more sophisticated now," Hildreth said. "We're able to laugh at ourselves and turn that UFO history into a tourist event that everybody can enjoy." The festival is scheduled for Friday and Saturday, and balloons will fly at dawn and dusk, the best times for good lift and light breezes. All events will take place in a park behind the town's school. Along with balloon flights and rides there will be craft and food vendors, music, clowns, an antique car show, Civil War re- enactors and a presentation by the United Cherokee Nation. Fyffe's brief time as a UFO hotbed began when a resident reported seeing a weird object in the sky. Two police officers went to investigate and saw a triangular object they said passed overhead without a sound. That led to a string of UFO sightings, and reports of cattle mutilations and mysterious black helicopters weren't far behind. With all the hubbub far behind it, Fyffe figured it was time to celebrate and rekindle some excitement. "Fyffe is a small town with a great family atmosphere," said Mayor Larry Lingerfelt said.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 19 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Frison From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:27:55 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:12:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Frison >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:25:46 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:49:50 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >Jerry if a guy cam up to you in a bar and asked you to ghost >write his account of his steamy 10 year simultaneous affairs >with Hilary Clinton and Condy Rice and all the politcal secrets >he thereby learned, would you >believe him, and what steps would you take to check his story Yeah... now I see the light! How could I have been so gullible? From here on in, we don't have to waste time and effort conducting meticulous forensic work, nor money on expensive DNA testing, to solve the Peter Khoury case. All we have to do is send a private investigator to ask questions on the street, trying to find a poppy-eyed, one-nippled hooker who targets johns with brain damage. Shouldn't be hard. And when we find her, there shouldn't be any problem getting a confession out of her after she's whipped with a rubber hose on her bare skin and we confront her with the fact that she doesn't bleed. How's she going to deny it then, eh? Once she knows the gig is up and gives up Khoury - really rats him out - then it's case solved!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 19 The Proof Is Out There From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:16:16 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:16:16 -0400 Subject: The Proof Is Out There Source: The Guardian http://tinyurl.com/dzptl Thursday August 18, 2005 The Proof Is Out There... Seth Shostak is perfectly prepared to believe that aliens have visited Earth. Just give him one piece of solid evidence The good news is that the latest polls confirm that roughly half of all Americans believe extraterrestrial life exists. The weird news is that a similar fraction think some of it is visiting Earth. Several recent TV shows have soberly addressed the possibility that alien craft are violating our airspace, occasionally touching down long enough to allow their crews to conduct bizarre experiments on hapless citizens. While these shows tantalise viewers by suggesting that they are finally going to get to the bottom of the "UFO debate", they never do. That's because the evidence is weak. During a recent show in which I participated, guest experts who have long studied UFOs argued for extraterrestrial presence by showing photographs of putative alien saucers at low altitudes. Some of these objects appeared as out-of-focus lights; others resembled hubcaps or frisbees. Since the former are perforce ambiguous, the latter command more of my attention. How can we know they're not hubcaps, tossed into the air by a hoaxer with a camera? The reply from one expert: "these photographs pass muster". When quizzed on exactly which muster was mastered, his response was that "atmospheric effects give us a limit on the distance, and careful examination has ruled out photographic trickery". Well, the former is chancy, and relies on some assumption about atmospheric conditions (was it a foggy day in San Francisco?), and the latter proves nothing. A real shot of an airborne hubcap would be free of photographic trickery. Additional evidence is "expert testimony". Pilots, astronauts, and others have all claimed to see odd craft. It's safe to say that these witnesses have seen something. But just because you don't recognise an aerial phenomenon doesn't mean it's an extraterrestrial visitor. That requires additional evidence that, so far, seems to be unconvincing. What about those folks who claim to have been abducted? On the TV programme, the UFO experts offered photos of scoop marks decorating the arms and legs of human subjects, and claimed that these minor disfigurements were due to alien malfeasance. But even aside from the puzzling question of why beings from distant worlds would come to Earth to melon-ball the locals, this evidence was, once again, ambiguous. The scoops might be caused by aliens, but then again they might be cigarette burns. When push came to shove, and when pressed as to whether there's compelling proof of extraterrestrial visitation, the experts on this show backed off by saying "well, we don't know where they come from. But something is definitely going on." The latter statement is hardly controversial. The former is goofy. If the saucers are not from outer space, where are they from? Belgium? The bottom line is that the evidence for extraterrestrial visitors has not convinced many scientists. Very few academics are writing papers for refereed journals about alien craft or their occupants. Confronted with this uncomfortable fact, UFO experts take refuge in two explanations: 1. The material that would be convincing proof has been collected and hidden by the authorities. While appealing, this is an argument from ignorance, and perforce implies that every government in the world has efficiently squirrelled away all the best alien artefacts; 2. Scientists have refused to study this phenomenon. In other words, the scientists should blame themselves for the fact that the visitation hypothesis has failed to sway them. This is not only unfair, it is misguided. Sure, few researchers have themselves sifted through the stories, the videos, and the odd photos that comprise the evidence for alien presence. But they don't have to. This is akin to telling movie critics that films would be better if only they would pitch in behind the camera. The burden of proof is on those making the claims, not those who find the data dubious. If there are investigators who are convinced that craft from other worlds are buzzing ours, then they should present the best evidence they have, and not resort to explanations that appeal to conspiratorial cover-ups or the failure of others to be open to the idea. The UFO advocates are asking us to believe something very important. After all, there could hardly be any discovery more dramatic than visitors from other worlds. If they could prove that the aliens are here, I would be as awestruck as anyone. But I still await a compelling Exhibit A. - Seth Shostak is senior astronomer at the Seti (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) institute, California
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 19 Re: The Proof Is Out There - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 09:11:02 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:10:24 -0400 Subject: Re: The Proof Is Out There - Shell On Friday, August 19, 2005, at 08:16 AM, UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote: >Source: The Guardian >http://tinyurl.com/dzptl >Thursday August 18, 2005 >The Proof Is Out There... <snip> >2. Scientists have refused to study this phenomenon. In other >words, the scientists should blame themselves for the fact that >the visitation hypothesis has failed to sway them. This is not >only unfair, it is misguided. Sure, few researchers have >themselves sifted through the stories, the videos, and the odd >photos that comprise the evidence for alien presence. But they >don't have to. This is akin to telling movie critics that films >would be better if only they would pitch in behind the camera. What a specious and ridiculous analogy!! No, it would be more akin to telling someone that they must
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 19 Re: An Open Question To The List - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:28:53 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:12:22 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Hall >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:18:21 -1000 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:41:41 +0000 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:06:33 +0200 >>>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List <snip> >Gentlemen, your analysis of the situation considerably >simplifies the problem confronting UFO research to a slumbering >public and sceptical scientific community that ignore the >evidence provided by valient UFO researchers replicating the >methodology of Allen Hynek, James McDonald, Stanton Friedman, >etc. This ignores the role of national security agencies in >deliberately sabotaging UFO research by intimidating witnesses, >removing evidence, controlling mainstream media, altering >records, etc. In short, without a systematic political analysis >of the national security system that distorts data collection >and analysis, your efforts to present more evidence to persuade >a sceptical scientific community will continue to be fruitless. >Simply saying that the government deliberately lies is not >enough to get UFO research moving in the right direction. There >needs to be analysis of how extensively the national security >system distorts data collection and analysis, and whether a >'hard' vs 'soft' cover up exists. <snip> This is paranoid horse hockey based on a monolithic view of government that bears no relationship to reality. National security agency employees have virtually no power or control over our daily lives. We (generically speaking) are responsible for our failure to convince others. The debunkers do get some help from disinformation (deliberate or otherwise) that clouds the issues, but it is nowhere as simplistic as your analysis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 19 Re: The Proof Is Out There - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:45:09 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:13:31 -0400 Subject: Re: The Proof Is Out There - Dickenson >Source: The Guardian >http://tinyurl.com/dzptl >Thursday August 18, 2005 >The Proof Is Out There... >Seth Shostak is perfectly prepared to believe that aliens have >visited Earth. Just give him one piece of solid evidence What's an astronomer doing laying down law on exobiology? (or exo-psychology for that matter?) Cheers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 20 Re: The Proof Is Out There - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 07:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:51:46 -0400 Subject: Re: The Proof Is Out There - Groff >Source: The Guardian >http://tinyurl.com/dzptl >Thursday August 18, 2005 >The Proof Is Out There... >Seth Shostak is perfectly prepared to believe that aliens have >visited Earth. Just give him one piece of solid evidence
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 20 Re: The Proof Is Out There - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:34:21 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:55:28 -0400 Subject: Re: The Proof Is Out There - Bourdais >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Date: Friday, August 19, 2005 2:16 PM >Subject: UFO UpDate: The Proof Is Out There >Source: The Guardian >http://tinyurl.com/dzptl >Thursday August 18, 2005 >The Proof Is Out There... >Seth Shostak is perfectly prepared to believe that aliens have >visited Earth. Just give him one piece of solid evidence Perhaps he would like it better, served on a silver platter? This article is a perfect exemple of big media and big science a priori, "rational"and close minded skepticism. And, yes, there is a wall of secrecy. We all know that. But I doubt that contactees and the like are going to make holes
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 20 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:49:48 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:06:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Rogerson >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:41:43 -0500 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:25:46 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:49:50 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? ><snip> >Peter, >>Here is a guy who according to some accounts gets beaten up, and >>finds himself in shall we say a compromising position with a >>couple of ladies of easy virtue, while in an altered state of >>consciouness. Its a case of hoax or hooker. And if hooker, is it >>not more probable that she comes from the local area than from >>the lost city of Shamballa, a Zeta Reticullan zoo, a parallel >>universe or AD 10,000. If hoax then presumably K knows its >>owner, or knows someone who does. Either way a PI or such may be >>able to track the hair owner down and get to the bottom of the >>story >Allow me to add this observation to my earlier post: >Based on nothing at all except your conviction that no such >thing as described (sexual interaction with an alien or hybrid >being) could ever have happened, you throw the sleaziest charges >against the informant, informing us, with no evidence beyond >psychic reading, that he consorts with prostitutes. Implicitly >following, of course, is the implication that such an individual >could therefore never tell the truth about anything. >It is one thing, of course, to state that the claim defies >belief and to leave it there. It is indeed hard to believe, as >high-strangeness UFO claims are by definition. It is quite >another to make up stuff to smear the claimant just because what >he says makes you uncomfortable. In that case you are obliged to >produce actual evidence to document your charges against his >honesty and character. Yes, Peter, even pelicanists are >answerable that elemental obligation, at least if they expect to >be taken seriously and not to be judged mere character >assassins. >I confess, however, that I have a certain fondness that >reference to the witness' having had sex with prostitutes "in an >altered state of consciousness." I presume that you don't mean >mere drunkenness, or you would have said so. What I wonder, >though, is this: how does one _pay_ a hooker, let alone find one >to invite into one's home, when one is in an altered state of >consciousness? >This is an issue which, I'm sure, we may expect many Magonia >articles to explore in detail. May we also confidently expect >that Magonians will congratulate themselves on having now solved >all sex-encounter UFO cases? This was a human hair. Alien/human hybrids are as next to impossible as you or I turning into kangaroos, or being able to survive a jump off the Empire State Building. If you take this story more or less at face value, what is your alternative: that the Zeta Reticullans are going into the sex industry? Perhaps the grays will be smuggling drugs next! I am of course quite happy to accept that this hair did not come into the possession of the witness in the way he claims. If the story is a hoax, the hair could have come into his possession through almost any route. Perhaps he has had some kind of subjective experience and has procured this hair to provide _physical evidence_. This case must indeed be of interest to lawyers in that allegations of hoaxing are less libellous than
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 20 Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:05:17 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:07:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - >From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:23:32 +0100 >Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:39:59 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers ><snip> >>The problem I have with this, is that the powers of the >>abductors, if they are physical beings - please forgive me for >>that caveat, but I am a pelicanist, after all ;) - seem to be >>limitless, and as I have said before, almost magical. So any >>conventional means we might use to counter them would be futile >>if that is the case. I would like to ask, do you see some >>weakness, an Achilles Heel, where they might be vulnerable? >As better qualified people than me have already said, a >civilization even one thousand years (or more) ahead of us will >have technology we must and will think of as `magic'. I'm well aware of the quotation, I think it was Arthur C. Clarke
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 20 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:12:17 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:14:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Rogerson >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:03:46 -0300 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:25:46 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>Its a case of hoax or hooker. And if hooker, is it >>not more probable that she comes from the local area than from >>the lost city of Shamballa, a Zeta Reticullan zoo, a parallel >>universe or AD 10,000. If hoax then presumably K knows its >>owner, or knows someone who does. Either way a PI or such may be >>able to track the hair owner down and get to the bottom of the >>story >It's either a hoax or a hooker, eh? You seem pretty sure there >are only two possible explanations. (Actually, you think there >is only one possible explanation, since if it's a hooker's hair >then that makes it a hoax.) The hair either got there more or less as K says, in which case terrestrial sex workers (professional or amateur) is a much more likely source than sex workers from, well what is your suggestion. >Sure, the hair apparently is human and Bill has heard that >before. I've already said that to him when I questioned if it >should be referred to as "hair of the alien" considering the >verdict of the DNA testing. However, you don't leave room for >any other explanation. >Such as >Khoury could be lying or he could be, for instance, confusing >his mental world with reality as a result of his head injury. Quite possibly, but where did the hair come from >But there could be other scenarios - very anomalous ones - that >could result in a human hair being found where it was. There are >more things, Horatio! Such as exactly? >It's a UFO investigator's job to determine if a witness is >credible or not and if a witness is hoaxing or not! Any UFO >investigator worth his/her salt doesn't have to 'pass the buck' >and hire private investigator's to do his/her own job. Bill >Chalker has done a proper job of assessing Khoury. Could he be >wrong about Khoury? Yes, of course! That's why he resists >drawing conclusions based on this one case and instead wants to >see the forensic approach applied in other cases to see if >similiar findings result. >The 'oriental component' in Khoury's case is enough to keep it >on the table for further analysis. It's not the first time an >'oriental' has allegedly been involved in a UFO or abduction >event. Why does a hair coming from someone with a mixed European-Asian background become anomalous. >There's a difference between a witness and a suspect! There's a >difference between an interview and an interrogation. A witness >is someone who has seen, heard, etc. some or all of an alleged >event and can possibly provide information that may be important >to someone interested in the event - you interview him/her. A >suspect is someone who may have committed some action, usually >criminal, in which case they may be deceptive or uncooperative - >you interrogate him/her. But until a witness gives you some >reason to question their integrity, you don't make them a >suspect. That doesn't mean you, as an investigator, believe the >testimony the witness provides purely on faith and that you >don't go out and do other investigative work to either confirm >or refute what the witness has provided. >UFO witnesses are not criminals; they're not suspects. As Jerry >Clark said, it makes the skin crawl to think they would be >subjected to private investigators after reporting an event. >They can be assessed without this - any competent UFO researcher >can accomplish this without resorting to such inappropriate >measures. >When someone who reports a UFO event is determined to be a fraud >or a con artist, etc. they then can be viewed more as a suspect >because they are, as a matter of fact, committing acts of fraud >against the UFO community and public - and they make the choice >to do so. If their cons and frauds are criminal offences then >they, like every other offender, become open to the scrutiny of >the police and private investigators. >Most 'Private Investigators' are usually bent on chasing to >ground something criminal or immoral. They have that mindset! >They aren't trained in ufological matters. I doubt they could >come close to doing a proper job here. >Most UFO witnesses aren't criminals. They're not offenders! >Don't treat them like they are! The police assess witnesses >everyday and they rarely do so by using the same methods they >apply in dealing with suspects and perps. For instance, when the >police arrive at a traffic accident scene which occurred as a >result of 'drunk driving', witnesses at the scene don't get run >through the police computers for possible criminal records, they >aren't subjected to background checks and credit checks, etc. - >they are not treated like criminals. But the police don't rely >exclusively on the witness testimony they gathered at the scene; >their traffic investigation and reconstruction team comes in and >does the necessary supporting investigation. >Even the police give witnesses the respect and privacy they >deserve and that they have a right to, and they do so when >investigating something as significant as crime. Do UFO >investigators have a mandate that justifies them using tactics >that even the police don't employ against >witnesses? >In a word, "No." I am making a rhetorical point that ufologists cannot possibly undertake the kind of research that would be needed to determine the truth or otherwise of many of the stories in ufology. Even police officers, medical personnel and others with years of specialist training have great difficulty in assessing people's honesty However, as one possible near literal explanation of K's adventure is that he was set up to be the victim of a blackmail attempt, perhaps it would be in his interests to get the police involved in this case. Running the DNA against police data bases might confirm and refute possible sources. After all if K were a woman, we would assume that she might have been the victim of a sex attacker.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 20 Re: The Proof Is Out There - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:18:23 -0400 Subject: Re: The Proof Is Out There - Tonnies >Source: The Guardian >http://tinyurl.com/dzptl >Thursday August 18, 2005 >The Proof Is Out There... >Seth Shostak is perfectly prepared to believe that aliens have >visited Earth. Just give him one piece of solid evidence I've posted my rebuttal to Seth's piece on my blog: http://tinyurl.com/dksve Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 20 Re: An Open Question to the List - Kimball From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:16:18 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:20:03 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question to the List - Kimball >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:18:21 -1000 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:41:41 +0000 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>Exactly right! There also is, and has been for decades, a >>scientists' underground in the U.S. strongly convinced that UFOs >>are real and important, but they are totally intimidated by the >>ridicule that emanates from their ill-informed, dogmatic >>colleagues and by lack of political or public support for >>legitimate studies of UFOs. >>People like me have been presenting hardcore evidence to >>scientists and other opinion-makers in society for decades; they >>don't listen. In fact, they refuse to even consider UFOs as a >>hypothetical possibility. Mr. Renaud apparently has no >>understanding of the difficulty of the task. <snip> >Gentlemen, your analysis of the situation considerably >simplifies the problem confronting UFO research to a slumbering >public and sceptical scientific community that ignore the >evidence provided by valient UFO researchers replicating the >methodology of Allen Hynek, James McDonald, Stanton Friedman, >etc. This ignores the role of national security agencies in >deliberately sabotaging UFO research by intimidating witnesses, >removing evidence, controlling mainstream media, altering >records, etc. In short, without a systematic political analysis >of the national security system that distorts data collection >and analysis, your efforts to present more evidence to persuade >a sceptical scientific community will continue to be fruitless. >Simply saying that the government deliberately lies is not >enough to get UFO research moving in the right direction. There >needs to be analysis of how extensively the national security >system distorts data collection and analysis, and whether a >'hard' vs 'soft' cover up exists. This is the very reason that people like Dick can't get scientists or decision makers to listen to them - people like Dr. Salla going on and on about the political dimension of UFOs, and the massive cover-up, all the while citing as sources people like Corso, Stone, Cooper, Lazar et al. If there's a "laughter curtain," Dr. Salla and the exopolitics crew are the guys holding the ropes. The intimidation that Dick talks about is real, but it's not because of some government cover-up; it's because people don't want to have anything to do with the wacky fringe. Here's a suggestion - take any and all money used for exopolitics, in any way, shape or form, and use it instead to send every member of Congress, and every member of the National Academy of Sciences, and as many high school and university libraries as possible, a copy of The UFO Evidence, Vol, II (more current than Vol. I, and therefore, I suspect, more relevant), along with an invitation to direct any questions (and $) to FUFOR, or CUFOS.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 20 Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:58:38 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:21:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - >From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:23:32 +0100 >Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:39:59 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:35:30 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:05:31 +0100 >>>>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers <snip> >>The problem I have with this, is that the powers of the >>abductors, if they are physical beings - please forgive me for >>that caveat, but I am a pelicanist, after all ;) - seem to be >>limitless, and as I have said before, almost magical. So any >>conventional means we might use to counter them would be futile >>if that is the case. I would like to ask, do you see some >>weakness, an Achilles Heel, where they might be vulnerable? >John, >As better qualified people than me have already said, a >civilization even one thousand years (or more) ahead of us will >have technology we must and will think of as `magic'. As I have pointed out many times before on this List, the scientific method calls for starting with the simplest hypotheses and only proceeds to more complicated hypotheses after the simpler ones have been eliminated. This is called the law of parsimony or Occam's (Ockham's) Razor, and it has been incorporated into UFO studies by Hynek in his rules for screening UFO cases. One must start with analysis of alleged alien civilizations that are at the lowest level of technological advancement, the level we have the best chance at comprehending, and not start at the highest levels of technology right at the outset, the "magic" level. Until the lowest alien technology has been firmly eliminated we cannot jump to higher levels. If a large group of scientists and engineers was polled and asked "If you were to study the first recovered alien artifacts would you begin by analyzing the alien technology that looked like it was only 100 years ahead of us or would you start with alien technology that looked like it was 1,000 or more years ahead of us?" I think almost every scientist and engineer would say of course you _must_ start at the beginning, at the lowest level, at the 100-years-ahead level before progressing to higher levels. Anything else would be sheer madness and an exercise in futility. Looking for a weakness or vulnerability or Achilles heel is in effect looking for the sensible 100-years-ahead type of assumption, whereas looking to understand a "magic" level of technology is hopeless, ridiculous, and an outright violation of scientific methodology. If UFO studies are to make any scientific progress this is the route to follow. Of course, there must be a lot more than roughly 6 months' worth of full-fledged scientific investigation, as I have defined it previously, which has so far been devoted to UFO's since 1947 in order to be able make such progress. (By full-scale scientific investigation I mean on the order of a hundred James McDonalds
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 20 Re: An Open Question To The List - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:03:09 -1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:24:39 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Salla >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:28:53 +0000 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:18:21 -1000 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:41:41 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:06:33 +0200 >>>>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List ><snip> >>Gentlemen, your analysis of the situation considerably >>simplifies the problem confronting UFO research to a slumbering >>public and sceptical scientific community that ignore the >>evidence provided by valient UFO researchers replicating the >>methodology of Allen Hynek, James McDonald, Stanton Friedman, >>etc. This ignores the role of national security agencies in >>deliberately sabotaging UFO research by intimidating witnesses, >>removing evidence, controlling mainstream media, altering >>records, etc. In short, without a systematic political analysis >>of the national security system that distorts data collection >>and analysis, your efforts to present more evidence to persuade >>a sceptical scientific community will continue to be fruitless. >>Simply saying that the government deliberately lies is not >>enough to get UFO research moving in the right direction. There >>needs to be analysis of how extensively the national security >>system distorts data collection and analysis, and whether a >>'hard' vs 'soft' cover up exists. ><snip> >This is paranoid horse hockey based on a monolithic view of >government that bears no relationship to reality. National >security agency employees have virtually no power or control >over our daily lives. We (generically speaking) are responsible >for our failure to convince others. The debunkers do get some >help from disinformation (deliberate or otherwise) that clouds >the issues, but it is nowhere as simplistic as your analysis >would suggest. You are making some pretty sweeping statements here that are not consistent with evidence of such a pervasive cover up. The cover up of data concerning UFOs/ETH has been commented upon by many including your former mentor Donald Keyhoe. His book, The Flying Saucer Conspiracy, was well researched and built up a credible foundation for the kind of "monolithic conspiracy" you so readily dismiss, and try to pass off as some "paranoid horse hockey". Let me remind you and the List that Keyhoe was convinced that in 1952/53 the Earth was being visited by giant UFOs/motherships and that senior policy makers systematically clamped down on the evidence. His sources were primarily leakers from within the military and Keyhoe commented on the draconian security mechanisms in place such as JANAP 146. Was Keyhoe so misinformed in his observations as you suggest, and engaging in some kind of "paranoid horse hockey"? Keyhoe was the first to offer an "exopolitical analysis" and in my view gets high marks for his astute observations of the political coverup underway that is systemic and pervasive, and controlled at the highest levels of the national security system. In contrast all you offer are some naive observations based on the utility of "more rigorous" scientific methodologies for convincing a sceptical public/scientific community of the reality of UFOs/ETH. You are peddling snake oil with your naive beliefs about the benign nature of the national security system that covers up the ETH data.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 20 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 33 From: John Hayes <John.nul> Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:11:29 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:27:41 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 33 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan.nul> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 10, Number 33 August 17, 2005 Editor: Joseph Trainor E-Mail: Masinaigan.nul Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ REPTOIDS THREATEN UFO RESEARCHER IN CRIMEA The UFO flap in Crimea, an autonomous region south of the Ukraine bordering the Black Sea, reached a new level with a close encounter of the third kind--a face-to-face encounter between a ufologist and four "strange entities." "They were Reptoids," eyewitness Victor Alexandrovich Zdorov reported, "Either Reptoids or some sort of reptilian creature. They were scaly Reptoids or lizard- like beings with four fingers." On Sunday, July 17, 2005, Zdorov was at his office in Komsomolskoye, a village east of the Simferopol Airport, when the aliens barged in. They surrounded Zdorov, who was sitting at his desk and blinking in disbelief. One entity pointed a scaly, clawed finger at him and hissed, "You know too much about UFOs." The strange visitation came at the end of a series of UFO sightings by Zdorov during the previous week. "In the middle of July (2005)," Crimean ufologist Anton A. Anfalov reported, "Zdorov was driving his VAZ- 2104 Lada (automobile) east of Simferopol when he saw the disk-shaped object hovering over the pine forest southeast of Simferopol's water reservoir. The disk was seen in broad daylight and had a high central dome and a broader protruding flat bottom unit. The disk-shaped craft was visibly metallic. The witness' car engine was malfunctioning, and he appeared 'under emanations' from the alien craft, as he asserts." "Between (Monday) July 11 and (Sunday) July 17, 2005, Zdorov reportedly saw another spectacular UFO, shaped like a whirligig or a humming top in the form of a high cone installed within another cone. The UFO was reportedly hovering at least for several minutes over the village of Komsomolskoye." "On Saturday, July 16, 2005, another witness, Artyem A. Benda, a ufologist from Zaporozhye in the Ukraine, while vacationing in the village of Alupka, west of Yalta in the Crimea, saw two bright overflights of UFOs in the early evening, out from beyond the mountains over the Black Sea. He tried to photograph the objects, remarking, 'That was a beautiful sight.'" "On Thursday, August 4, 2005, while walking his dog in Lenino Square in downtown Simferopol, between the Council of Ministers building and the Ukrainian Dramatic Theatre, close to the Lenin monument, Victor A. Zdorov saw a bright object continuously blinking a red light for ten minutes, hovering in the northeast, over the suburb of Svoboda. This sighting lasted from approximately 9:45 to 9:55 p.m. The object couldn't have been an airplane's navigation light because it was stationary, not moving. Surely this wasn't a helicopter, as well. It was totally soundless, and all of the Mi-8 and Mi-2 helicopters were on the tarmac at Zavodskoye airfield." (Many thanks to Anton A. Anfalov for these news reports.) LARGE ORANGE UFO SEEN AT OMARAMA, NEW ZEALAND On Friday, August 5, 2005, at 8 p.m., eyewitness R.M. "was on a rural motorway between Kurow and Omarama in central Otago (region of the) South Island, New Zealand. Me and another witness were driving west through the Southern Alps here in New Zealand when we spotted a singular object in the dark sky. At first we believed this orange object was Mars, but then, at 8:45 p.m., the object began to pulse and flare up." "This strange orange object looked two to three times larger than any of the other stars. And when it pulsed, it would flare up to a large gleaming orange and then turn so dull it could hardly be seen. Then it would flare up to a bright orange again, even brighter than the moon." "Each pulse occurred at random intervals between 20 seconds to two minutes" in duration. "I looked at the object with binoculars," R.M. reported, "believing this must be the space shuttle (Discovery) or a satellite, but these were quickly excused for many reasons, and no other reports had been made of this object." "There was no approach or departure that I saw, but the object was remarkably high above the Earth." (Email Form Report) UFO SIGHTINGS SURGE ACROSS CANADA Canada is the site of a major new UFO flap this summer, with dramatic sightings in the provinces of Quebec, Ontario and Manitoba. On Tuesday, July 12, 2005, at 11:30 p.m., eyewitness Catherine Hawks reported, "Me and my family are from England, and I was visiting relatives in Canada. We were staying at my Nana and Grandad's cottage on an island in Fenelon Falls, Ontario (population 2,040). Me and my boyfriend were down at the beach, when my boyfriend pointed up to the sky and said, 'What's that?'" "I glanced up and said, 'Oh, it's a plane.'" "But he said, 'No, it's not. Look!'" "I looked again and realised it was not a plane as it had no flashing (navigational) lights. The object was really, really high in the sky. It was a clear night, and we could see a bright white light, brighter than any star in the sky. It was moving very rapidly across the sky and zigzagging, unlike a plane or a satellite. Then it stood in the same place and turned a dull red colour and then faded until it totally disappeared." "Also, about five minutes later, there was a big circular flash of bright white light in the sky. It was only there for a second. If you had blinked, you would have missed it. I don't know whether they had anything to do with each other, but I thought I would add it, anyway." Fenelon Falls, Ont. is on Provincial Highway 121 about 50 miles (80 kilometers) northeast of Toronto, Canada's largest city. On Saturday and Sunday, August 6 and 7, 2005, residents of Piney, Manitoba "witnessed a strange sight in the sky." "Three residents of Piney claim they saw a shiny object three times the size of a jetliner, with pointed ends and no wings." "'It was mainly tubular-shaped with some small protrusions on either side, and it flew overhead,' said Chris Rutkowski, director of Ufology Research of Manitoba (URM)." The witnesses estimated that "maybe three minutes (elapsed) from the time this thing appeared over one horizon until it had flown over and vanished over the opposite horizon." Piney is on Provincial Highway 12, just above Manitoba's border with the state of Minnesota, located about 60 miles (100 kilometers) southeast of Winnipeg. On Tuesday, August 9, 2005, at 10 p.m., eyewitness A.S. reported, "My friend and I were in the park at Westwood," in Montreal, Quebec, "lying down on the field. We were able to see the lights of the city, as well as many stars, although the clouds were kind of low and it was very foggy out because it had been a very hot day." "As I was laying there, I saw in the clouds a halo and a light. Then it flashed a couple of times and turned an orangish colour. It resembled a pumpkin. There were three white lights at the top of the round disk. The angle of the disk alternated, assuming different angles. When it was on its side, it was disk with a dome on the top of it." "The object started flashing and spazzing into an L- shape, going back and forth. Finally, it went behind a cloud, but, a couple of minutes later, we saw a white object flying around the disk. It was moving very regally but very fast, faster than any airplane." "Minutes later, both objects completely vanished. When we got home, we both drew what we had seen and compared drawings. The funny thing is, during the sighting, it was completely silent. I hadn't ever realized that my (cell) phone rang. I had two missed calls, and my phone was on my bag, set on Loud." However, A.S. did not hear the cell phone ringing. On Thursday, August 11, 2005, at about 3 a.m., Brandon S. reported, he was asleep at home in Kapuskasing, Ontario (population 10,036) when he "had to get out of bed because I needed a bathroom break. While I was doing my business, my grandma got up. While I was in the bathroom, my grandma looked out the window to see if she could see any shooting stars (meteors--J.T.) So I went over to see what she was looking at. At this point, she got me to look up at the sky, too, and, all of a sudden, we saw this star appear. And then it started to get bright, then fade." "All of a sudden, it got really, really big--as big as a watermelon. It took off across the sky at eight times the speed of a jet (about 4,000 miles per hour-- J.T.). Once we saw this happen, we saw another star get as big as the first one and then take off after it." "It was so cool but scary at the same time," Brandon added. Kapuskasing is on Provincial Highway 11 in northern Ontario, about 250 miles (400 kilometers) northeast of Sault Sainte Marie. (See the CTV news broadcast of August 11, 2005 for the Manitoba story. The other cases were all Email Form Reports.) UFOs SIGHTED IN DEVON AND NOTTINGHAMSHIRE On Friday, August 12, 2005, at 12:20 a.m., Emma Whitley was at her home in Westwood, Nottinghamshire, UK when she saw something strange in the sky, approaching from the southwest. "I was sitting in the living room, and I heard a humming noise," Emma reported, "So I looked out the window to see what it was. All I saw was a triangle-shaped object with three white lights at each point (or corner-- J.T.) and a one red light in the middle, flying slowly over the house." "So I walked outside to watch and it must've taken at least five minutes to get completely out of range. It could have been a plane, but I've never seen one like this go so slow before." (Email Form Report) Eyewitness Tim Francis reported, "Yesterday evening (Saturday, August 13, 2005) at approximately 10:30 p.m., there was a series of bright orange moving lights in the sky over my neighbourhood" in Smithleigh, near Plympton, Devon, UK. "They were moving westward from Smithleigh. Initially it was possible it was lights flying together in some sort of formation. It looked like a star constellation until we spotted the lights moving towards us, and some were too bright and too orange in colour to be stars." "As the lights got overhead, the formation changed, with one of the lights speeding up a bit faster than the others. No noise could be heard from the objects, although there was road noise from the nearby (motorway) A38, which could have drowned out faint sounds." "After the first formation had gone, there came several more objects over the next ten minutes. I think there were two occurrences of two lights together and then two single lights after." "The last object flew over and seemed to be lower than the others. As it got overhead, it seemed like you could make out a rectangular shape, which appeared almost fluid. My friend (there were three of us present--T.F.) said it looked like a jellyfish, I think, because the shape appeared to be changing." "All of them seemed to have a bright orange light at the front and back, or maybe on top, as you could see the lights when they were coming towards us or going away. But the light was not visible while they were overhead." (Email Form Report) UFO SIGHTINGS CONTINUE THROUGHOUT ARGENTINA More UFOs have been sighted in Argentina recently, according to UFO Roundup correspondent Ricardo E. D'Angelo. On Sunday, July 24, 2005, at 8:29 p.m., "a bright light-pulse flashed at the zenith in the sky over Cordoba," capital city of Argentina's province of the same name. "Two minutes, 28 seconds later, a luminous white orb began moving towards the east. It was apparently the size of the planet Jupiter. The energy release was 'very striking,' according to those who observed it." Cordoba is located 400 kilometers (250 miles) west- northwest of Buenos Aires, the national capital. On Monday, July 25, 2005, "another bright luminous flash was seen from the grounds of the Observatory" in Cordoba. "The strange light presented a blue coloration." On Saturday, August 6, 2005, from 7 to 7:20 p.m., "observers onshore spotted a luminous UFO hovering the cities and towns of the (Rio Parana) Delta," north of Buenos Aires. Sightings were reported in Tigre, Belen de Escobar, Ibicuy, Zarate and Campana. "The phenomenon was also seen over the Rio de la Plata," east of the city. "Several fireballs of a great intensity flew from the north to the southeast. Seconds later, they hovered over the Rio de la Plata and appeared as lights flashing." On Tuesday, August 9, 2005, "at 7:56 p.m., "two UFOs appeared and suddenly inflated to stars of the first magnitude. They then dimmed equally suddenly. These strange lights were seen over southern Cordoba and the neighbouring town of Ferreyra. Both objects began as what looked like ordinary stars, and they made absolutely no sound. One observer captured two minutes of this particular sighting on video." (Muchas gracias a Ricardo E. D'Angelo para estas noticias.) THREE COWS MUTILATED IN CUBANEA, ARGENTINA "The discovery of two bovines found dead under not entirely clear circumstances reactivated the mystery that held the country (Argentina) hostage two years ago (2003) when hordes of similar cases became known, and for which no reasonable explanation was ever found beyond a number of hypotheses--some of them extreme and unsustainable." The three cows were found dead in two fields at Cubanea, a small community in Argentina's Rio Negro province approximately 70 kilometers (42 miles) from Viedma. "One property, belonging to Erberto Malaspina, the development commissioner for Cubanea, contained two of the bovines, located 50 meters (165 feet) from each other. Malaspina's field is located on the side of National Route 25, which links Viedma with Conesa." "One of the animals was found dead on a farm belonging to Luis Garrone at Kilometer 1001 on National Highway 3." This field was approximately 20 kilometers (12 miles) away from Viedma in San Javier." All three cows "had been relieved of their right eye and ear, and the skin of its jawbone had been excised with straight, cauterized incisions. It was further missing its tongue and presented a 20-centimeter (6-inch) orifice on the right side of the nape of the neck." "Police officials from the San Javier Sheriff's Office reported to the scene with experts from the Criminality Bureau, who took (microscope) slides and measured the scene of the discovery." "In any event, Carlos Garrone, the field owner's brother, reported that he had never seen anything like it." (See the Argentinian newspaper Las Noticias for August 8, 2005, "Three bovines killed suspiciously in Rio Negro." Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Cristian Quintero del grupo Planeta UFO por este articulo de diario.) DISCOVERY RETURNS SAFELY, LANDS IN CALIFORNIA "Pilot James Kelly admitted that he experienced a 'moment of trepidation' Tuesday," August 9, 2005, "as space shuttle Discovery plunged toward Earth." "'I wouldn't be human otherwise,' he said." "Memories of Columbia's fateful journey two years ago, in which all seven crewmembers died, were inevitable, especially when Commander Eileen Collins pushed the button to start Discovery's descent." "Kelly, a colonel in the U.S. Air Force, said he was 'honestly hoping that we'd make it farther than they did. And I wished that they had made it all the way home.'" Kelly, Collins and their fellow crew members, spacewalkers Stephen Robinson and Soichi Noguchi, Charles Camarda, Andy Thomas and Wendy Lawrence "landed smoothly at 5:11 a.m. Pacific time at Edwards Air Force Base, completing" the USA's first space shuttle mission since the destruction of the shuttle Columbia on February 1, 2003. Discovery "was supposed to land at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida but was diverted to its landing site in (California's) Mojave Desert. Two days of rain and lightning in Florida made it too risky to land there." "As it hurtled backwards 220 miles (352 kilometers) above the Indian Ocean, Discovery fired its tail rockets at 4:06 a.m. Pacific time, slowing just enough to drop out of orbit and into Earth's atmosphere." "A tense hour later, the shuttle appeared overhead as a glowing star in clear, predawn darkness on its final approach to Runway 22 at Edwards Air Force Base." "'There was a moment of trepidation right before Eileen hit the execute on the deorbit burn,' Kelly confessed, referring to the rocket firing that initiated re-entry. 'Once you do that, you're coming home.'" "After touching down, Collins said, 'Houston, Discovery, wheels stop." "Roger, wheels stop, Discovery, and congratulations on a truly spectacular test flight,' responded astronaut Kenneth Ham at Mission Control." "Stephanie Stilson, the vehicle manager in charge of Discovery, confessed to 'hugging anybody who was close to me.'" "President (George W.) Bush congratulated the crew, saying the successful flight 'was an important step for NASA as it regains the confidence of the American people' and focuses NASA on a new mission: to return to the moon and go to Mars." "The moment was bittersweet for Evelyn Husband, who watched Discovery's return at her home in Houston with her children and two friends. Her husband, Rick, was Columbia's commander." "Husband said she had been dreading the moment after two-and-a-half years of waiting. When Discovery reached the same point in its descent that Columbia broke up, 'I got a lump in my throat.'" "'We were very quiet,' she said, 'I was thinking about my husband. And when we saw the infrared image of the shuttle, it made me really sad. I wish we could've seen the same thing." "The shuttle fleet remains grounded until NASA can diagnose why chunks of insulating foam continue to break off the shuttle's external fuel tank on takeoff." "Discovery's latest mission, the 114th for the shuttle fleet since 1981, had its successes. It resupplied and repaired the half-completed International Space Station." "Discovery also brought back more than 3 tons of garbage and broken equipment. Astronauts Stephen Robinson and Soichi Noguchi did three spacewalks." "The 14-day mission, delayed by about two weeks by a faulty fuel sensor, also chalked up a series of space firsts--some reflecting NASA's troubles with the shuttle:" (1) "A new array of cameras and sensors aboard Discovery allowed NASA engineers to spot and assess dings during flight." (2) "Collins flew a shuttle's first backflip, so the space station crew could photograph the heat-resistant tiles on Discovery's underside. The inspection disclosed two sandpaper-like seals, known as gap fillers, protruding from the heat shield. Engineers decided they could cause overheating on re-entry." (3) "Robinson did the first repair in orbit to the shuttle's heat shield. Riding the station's robot arm, he easily yanked out the gap fillers. NASA decided not to repair a torn section of insulation blanketing near a cockpit window. It caused no trouble on re-entry." "Collins, a retired U.S. Air Force colonel, acknowledged thinking about the Columbia crew during re- entry. The astronauts had a photo of the Columbia crew on board with them." "To the Columbia families, Collins said, 'Our heart goes out to them as we reach a point of closure for them.'" (See USA Today for August 10, 2005, "'Spectacular' mission ends in Calif.," page 3A.) NEW ORBITER HEADS FOR MARS "After a day's delay, a spacecraft loaded with high- tech cameras, antenna and radar began a seven-month voyage to Mars on Friday," August 12, 2005. The new mission "aims to gather more data on the Red Planet than all previous explorations combined." "The Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) lifted off flawlessly on an Atlas V rocket, three days after space shuttle Discovery returned to Earth from a two-week mission." The MRO, "the fourth Mars orbiter," is carrying "some of the most sophisticated science instruments ever sent into space," including the largest telescopic camera ever sent to another planet. The new orbiter will "scan the desolate surface in search of sites to land more robotic explorers in the next decade." "'It's time we started peeling back the onion layer and start looking at Mars from different vantage points,' says project manager James Graf of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena," California. "Like the three (Earth) spacecraft currently flying around Mars--including a European orbiter--the latest orbiter will seek evidence of water and other signs that the planet once could have hosted life." "Powered by solar panels on its journey, the orbiter is expected to reach Mars" on or about March 15, 2006. The $720 million mission was launched from Cape Canaveral, Florida. The MRO's "powerful camera can snap the sharpest pictures yet of the planet's rust-colored surface, with six times the resolution of past images." "During the 310-million-mile trip, NASA will test the six instruments aboard the orbiter, including one that will measure the ultraviolet radiation from Earth so scientists will have a comparison with Mars." "The Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter will be NASA's last Mars orbiter this decade. Belt-tightening forced the agency to cancel a $500 million mission planned for 2009." "However, two more landing attempts are set during the next four years. Scientists hope to use the orbiter's detailed mapping to scout safe landing sites for the Phoenix Mars and Mars Science Laboratory missions in 2007 and 2009, respectively." "The information gleaned by the spacecraft also could help scientists decide where to send a lander during the next decade to return the first samples of Martian rock and soil to Earth." "The stationary Phoenix lander will use a robotic arm to explore the icy plains of Mars' north pole. Later, the Mars Science Laboratory will analyze rocks and soil in finer detail than other rovers, which uncovered geologic evidence of water in the planet's past." "The solar-powered Spirit and Opportunity rovers are still trekking across the Martian surface" on opposite sides of the Red Planet, having "thrilled space fans with their hijinks on Mars." "The 2-ton Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter also will try to find two ill-fated spacecraft--NASA's Mars Polar Lander and Britain's Beagle 2 lander--that lost contact (with Earth) during separate landing attempts." "The Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter should reach Mars' orbit in mid-March next year. Along with its telescopic camera, the orbiter's payload includes ground-penetrating radar that can probe up to a third of a mile beneath surface rock and ice for evidence of water." "Today Mars is cold and dry with large caps of frozen water at its poles. Scientists think the planet was a wetter and possibly warmer place eons ago--conditions that might have been conducive to life." (See the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune for August 13, 2005, "NASA launches Mars orbiter," page 2A; and USA Today for August 8, 2005, "Mars attracts: New orbiter set for launch," page 4A.) Well, that's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth--and occasionally, Mars--brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup." See you next time. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2005 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 20 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Lowe From: Adam Lowe <subjectla27583.nul> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:24:28 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 09:00:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Lowe >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:49:48 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >This was a human hair. Alien/human hybrids are as next to >impossible as you or I turning into kangaroos, or being able to >survive a jump off the Empire State Building.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:02:52 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:03:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:05:17 +0100 >Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:23:32 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:39:59 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >><snip> >>>The problem I have with this, is that the powers of the >>>abductors, if they are physical beings - please forgive me for >>>that caveat, but I am a pelicanist, after all ;) - seem to be >>>limitless, and as I have said before, almost magical. So any >>>conventional means we might use to counter them would be futile >>>if that is the case. I would like to ask, do you see some >>>weakness, an Achilles Heel, where they might be vulnerable? >>As better qualified people than me have already said, a >>civilization even one thousand years (or more) ahead of us will >>have technology we must and will think of as `magic'. >I'm well aware of the quotation, I think it was Arthur C. Clarke >(or possibly Arthur C. Clark, I'm not sure). However I think it >simply serves to reinforce my point. Now see? Right there. That is just the kind of needless and juvenilely insentient, if stealthy, baiting for which you are marginally famous. Anything to fan the bottom of the ufological estuary in your favor, eh? You'll have to become stealthier still. It's becoming a little too tediously obvious, and I would think unworthy of the rationality you would pretend to champion, otherwise, nes't-ce pas? Be that as it may, I'm going to throw a card down whenever I see it. ...I feel an OddOde bubbling deep in the Muse's caldron in your honor (...or possibly, honour, I'm not sure...) as it is... no threat. Portents of possible promise in something that would aspire to outlive you. Like a poor man's Byron beating up on a south-end Southey, but, you know the drill.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Re: An Open Question To The List - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:26:59 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:08:33 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Friedman >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:18:21 -1000 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:41:41 +0000 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:06:33 +0200 >>>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List <snip> >Gentlemen, your analysis of the situation considerably >simplifies the problem confronting UFO research to a slumbering >public and sceptical scientific community that ignore the >evidence provided by valient UFO researchers replicating the >methodology of Allen Hynek, James McDonald, Stanton Friedman, >etc. This ignores the role of national security agencies in >deliberately sabotaging UFO research by intimidating witnesses, >removing evidence, controlling mainstream media, altering >records, etc. In short, without a systematic political analysis >of the national security system that distorts data collection >and analysis, your efforts to present more evidence to persuade >a sceptical scientific community will continue to be fruitless. >Simply saying that the government deliberately lies is not >enough to get UFO research moving in the right direction. There >needs to be analysis of how extensively the national security >system distorts data collection and analysis, and whether a >'hard' vs 'soft' cover up exists. <snip> Michael, I sure wish you would stop this silly effort to make Hynek, McDonald, and I triplets. Aside from the difference in our ages, and the fact that I don't have a PhD and have never worked in Academia, but spent 14 years in industry working on classified programs and have been to 20 archives, I have for many many years offered as conclusion number 2 at the beginning of my lectures that "The subject of Flying Saucers is a kind of Cosmic Watergate. This means some few people within major governments have known at least since July, 1947, that some UFOs are alien spacecraft." I discuss the lies of the Secretary of the USAF about Project Blue Book Special Report 14. I review Colonel Weaver's and Captain McAndrew's false explanations about Roswell. I note Bolender 's memo, show blacked out and whited out CIA and NSA UFO documents. I point out the fallacies from the USGOV re MJ- 12. I provide specific evidence, not wide sweeping allegations unsubstantiated by nothing more than your will to believe. Jim talked of a foul-up until shortly before his death when he did suggest coverup. He was great at presenting specific cases and specific scientific evidence to destroy the false claims of Menzel and Klass. Allan didn't provide scientific refutation of debunker claims and did not talk about a coverup nor advanced technology.I show pictures of nuclear rocket engines. Read my MUFON 2005 paper "Government UFO Lies" which is in the Symposium Proceedings available from MUFON at: www.mufon.com I talk about specific lies by specific people... no wild-eyed, unsubstantiated, generalities as you do. Certainly the groups I talk to and those who hear me on radio and TV seem to find no trouble joining in acceptance of my views judging by the feedback I get. We are not triplets. We have focused on data. I have also focused on the Cosmic Watergate. Try letting facts be absorbed before reaching conclusions and pontificating. Reminds me of SETI cultist Shostak.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? - Miller From: Scott Miller <scott_fridrich_miller.nul> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:52:27 +1000 (EST) Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:35:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? - Miller >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:18:54 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:59:20 +1000 >>Subject: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>The Peter Khoury alien abduction milieu, which is presented as a >>detailed case study in my book "HAIR of the ALIEN", represents a >>potent example of what the Clancy/McNally research fails to >>address - abduction cases that are clearly and consciously >>recollected, with compelling physical evidence that appears to >>support their legitimacy. >Bill. Have proven beyond doubt that a) this hair comes straight >from a human body and not say a wig made of human hair, b) that >it is a pubic hair and not say a head hair, c) that it >definately a woman's hair. >For the sake of argument granting all three of the those >suppositions, what is so anomalous about an Australian woman of >predominately Irish family background having a Chinese maternal >ancestor. This woman's mothers, mothers, mothers, mother's etc >etc mother came from China, who knows how many generations back. Bill, The final DNA analysis was conducted by someone/group who still remain unidentified - under the APEG. Consequently the credentials & independence of the technical staff person[s] or the lab[s] are unknown. Too keep it all scientifically credible (forensic credentials &
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Re: The Proof Is Out There - Freeman From: Kelly Freeman <Khfflsciufo.nul> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:04:37 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:40:37 -0400 Subject: Re: The Proof Is Out There - Freeman >Source: The Guardian >http://tinyurl.com/dzptl >Thursday August 18, 2005 >The Proof Is Out There <snip> >What about those folks who claim to have been abducted? On the >TV programme, the UFO experts offered photos of scoop marks >decorating the arms and legs of human subjects, and claimed that >these minor disfigurements were due to alien malfeasance. But >even aside from the puzzling question of why beings from distant >worlds would come to Earth to melon-ball the locals, this >evidence was, once again, ambiguous. The scoops might be caused >by aliens, but then again they might be cigarette burns. What an insult to the intelligence of any rational thinking human being - not to mention the UFO investigators and abductees. To suggest that scoop marks, cuts and other physical injuries to the abductees are 'decorative' in nature suggests that Mr. Shostak is not only ignorant of the facts, but also suggests an insensitivity to the inherent trauma suffered through abduction episodes. Cigarette burns? Maybe Dr. Shostak should burn himself with a cigarette and see what it really looks like. But that would probably hurt, as well as, the truth. Kelly
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Re: An Open Question To The List - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 14:24:27 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:50:41 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Hall >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:03:09 -1000 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:28:53 +0000 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:18:21 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>Gentlemen, your analysis of the situation considerably >>>simplifies the problem confronting UFO research to a slumbering >>>public and sceptical scientific community that ignore the >>>evidence provided by valient UFO researchers replicating the >>>methodology of Allen Hynek, James McDonald, Stanton Friedman, >>>etc. This ignores the role of national security agencies in >>>deliberately sabotaging UFO research by intimidating witnesses, >>>removing evidence, controlling mainstream media, altering >>>records, etc. <snip> >>This is paranoid horse hockey based on a monolithic view of >>government that bears no relationship to reality. National >>security agency employees have virtually no power or control >>over our daily lives. We (generically speaking) are responsible >>for our failure to convince others. The debunkers do get some >>help from disinformation (deliberate or otherwise) that clouds >>the issues, but it is nowhere as simplistic as your analysis >>would suggest. >You are making some pretty sweeping statements here that are not >consistent with evidence of such a pervasive cover up. The cover >up of data concerning UFOs/ETH has been commented upon by many >including your former mentor Donald Keyhoe. His book, The >Flying Saucer Conspiracy, was well researched and built up a >credible foundation for the kind of "monolithic conspiracy" you >so readily dismiss, and try to pass off as some "paranoid horse >hockey". >Let me remind you and the List that Keyhoe was convinced that in >1952/53 the Earth was being visited by giant UFOs/motherships >and that senior policy makers systematically clamped down on the >evidence. His sources were primarily leakers from within the >military and Keyhoe commented on the draconian security >mechanisms in place such as JANAP 146. Was Keyhoe so misinformed >in his observations as you suggest, and engaging in some kind of >"paranoid horse hockey"? >Keyhoe was the first to offer an "exopolitical analysis" and in >my view gets high marks for his astute observations of the >political coverup underway that is systemic and pervasive, and >controlled at the highest levels of the national security >system. In contrast all you offer are some naive observations >based on the utility of "more rigorous" scientific methodologies >for convincing a sceptical public/scientific community of the >reality of UFOs/ETH. You are peddling snake oil with your naive >beliefs about the benign nature of the national security system >that covers up the ETH data. Michael, I will venture to say without fear of contradiction that I knew and understood Major Keyhoe and his thinking far better than you did or ever will. This will be my last response to anything you post, as you have no concept of logic, reason, or evidence and it is a total waste of time trying to communicate with you. The final sentence of your first paragraph quoted above about intelligence agencies quashing UFO research, removing evidence, etc. is pure and simple nonsense. Nothing but bald assumption followed by circular reasoning. Some specific evidence can be hidden at least temporarily, but evidence trails cannot be removed completely as several of your dubious sources claim. Major Keyhoe never believed what you say. We all thought UFOs probably were spaceships; that's no secret. But Maj. Keyhoe always depicted two opposing camps within the Air Force, one of which favored total secrecy and one that wanted the full truth to come out. This analysis has been totally confirmed by historical documentation, and is a far cry from what you are claiming. Later he came to believe that the CIA was behind the secrecy policy, and there also is good evidence of that being true after 1952 You go right ahead and spout your exocranial blatherings. No real scholar is going to pay any attention to them, and as Paul Kimball pointed out, the dubious and often badly flawed "sources" that you continually cite will go a long way toward further discrediting the subject in the eyes of the people whose help we badly need.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 09:25:12 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:52:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Clark >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:49:48 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:41:43 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:25:46 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:49:50 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? Hi, Peter, >>It is one thing, of course, to state that the claim defies >>belief and to leave it there. It is indeed hard to believe, as >>high-strangeness UFO claims are by definition. It is quite >>another to make up stuff to smear the claimant just because what >>he says makes you uncomfortable. In that case you are obliged to >>produce actual evidence to document your charges against his >>honesty and character. Yes, Peter, even pelicanists are >>answerable that elemental obligation, at least if they expect to >>be taken seriously and not to be judged mere character >>assassins. >>I confess, however, that I have a certain fondness that >>reference to the witness' having had sex with prostitutes "in an >>altered state of consciousness." I presume that you don't mean >>mere drunkenness, or you would have said so. What I wonder, >>though, is this: how does one _pay_ a hooker, let alone find one >>to invite into one's home, when one is in an altered state of >>consciousness? I note that the above goes unaddressed. Let's just hope, though, that the witness, while looking for those prostitutes to take home with him (in the Rogerson Scenario), wasn't _driving_ in that altered state of consciousness. >This was a human hair. Alien/human hybrids are as next to >impossible as you or I turning into kangaroos, or being able to >survive a jump off the Empire State Building. You're blowing smoke, Peter. Even I, whose expertise consists of what I read in the papers, know better. What genetic engineering has already accomplished is remarkable; what it will accomplish potentially is somewhere between astounding and disturbing, maybe even unimaginable. This, in any event, is not an issue with which we need concern ourselves when we have actual empirical evidence (hair with an anomalous DNA profile) in hand. Apparently you have been reduced to declaring the experience a priori impossible, there being no shred of evidence for the hypothetical prostitutes you have irresponsibly conjured up in what might be called an altered state of conscience. This may be a convenient rhetorical strategy for you, but that's all it is. From another point of view, it's not just unproved but, being based on nothing beyond malicious speculation, contemptible. >I am of course quite happy to accept that this hair did not come >into the possession of the witness in the way he claims. If the >story is a hoax, the hair could have come into his possession >through almost any route. Perhaps he has had some kind of >subjective experience and has procured this hair to provide >_physical evidence_. This case must indeed be of interest to >lawyers in that allegations of hoaxing are less libellous than >taking the story at face value. Curious how threatening a report like this is to you. That's why - instead of suspending judgment, like the rest of us, as the inquiry takes its course - you're flailing your arms, making stuff up, and spouting pelicanist nonsense. Well, "pelicanist nonsense" - I repeat myself. The rest of us can only congratulate Bill Chalker on a masterly investigation and wait patiently to see where it goes from here. Unlike you, Bill has been properly reluctant to draw sweeping conclusions as he urges further research into comparable samples should they become available. One case like this does not prove that abductions are real, physical events involving, in some instances, sexual encounters with hybrid entities. At best, it is merely consistent with the hypothesis. In itself it settles nothing. I hope that improves your mood and helps you regain a sense of perspective. Meantime, like Bill, the rest of us feel no obligation to leap to conclusions. We are too sensible either to claim conclusive proof of an extraordinary event or to dismiss it with fanciful counterexplanations devoid of empirical (or, as in the current instance, ethical) justification. In other words, we are possessed of open minds and something
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:35:50 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:59:37 -0400 Subject: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood Last Friday night Dr. Lynne Kitei's movie on the Phoenix Lights came to Hollywood... well, to beautiful downtown Burbank specifically and premiered on the Warner Brothers lot. It was refreshing to see a film sans debunkers and one that should lay to rest that anyone videotaped or saw 'flares' on the night of March 13, 1997 or January 14, 1998 or earlier or later sightings of the orbs and triangles seen over the Phoenix area as I have contended in my book and Dr. Kitei has contended in hers. The scientific facts are irrefutable - I take that back - refutable by those who wish to continue to debate. That the very large silent low-flying objects were ignored in a dispute over lights and flares is a shining example of how the skeptics can send such a significant case off the rails. Warner is considering releasing it nationwide in theaters near you. We haven't had a documentary film on UFOs appear in theaters in a long, long while.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:47:06 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:02:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers - >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 17:58:38 EDT >Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 23:23:32 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:39:59 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Explaining Memories Of Martian Kidnappers <snip> >>As better qualified people than me have already said, a >>civilization even one thousand years (or more) ahead of us will >>have technology we must and will think of as `magic'. >One must start with analysis of alleged alien civilizations that >are at the lowest level of technological advancement, the level >we have the best chance at comprehending, and not start at the >highest levels of technology right at the outset, the "magic" >level. Until the lowest alien technology has been firmly >eliminated we cannot jump to higher levels. Brad, I think that's a red herring - at the very start of the track. Here's a rational view (from SETI news item - couple of years ago?): As Tarter - director of the SETI Institute's Search for extraterrestrial Intelligence - pointed out, civilization on Earth represents the lowest form of technological advancement by the SETI definition. We've only been able to communicate electronically for a few decades. If there is anyone else out there with technology, sheer odds suggest they've had it much, much longer than we have. To them, we might be viewed as the scum of the universe. "We really are the dumbest folks in the galaxy," Tarter told her esteemed colleagues. If we can't grasp that - and build it into our assumptions - we're not going to get very far. Cheers Ray D
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Re: The Proof Is Out There - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:58:05 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:07:01 -0400 Subject: Re: The Proof Is Out There - Boone >Source: The Guardian >http://tinyurl.com/dzptl >Thursday August 18, 2005 >The Proof Is Out There... >Seth Shostak is perfectly prepared to believe that aliens have >visited Earth. Just give him one piece of solid evidence <snip> So again we have an article that looks genuine yet focuses on that Shostak guy. If more researchers and scientists had been asked I could see it as a fair and square piece. I won't character assassinate Shostak as I don't know him, never met him. Science and research aren't where personality problems should arise. As for the article's content there are only two points I can comment on. The first is the physical proof query. There is ample, undeniable physical proof that the public can examine or there isn't. Plain and simple. There is solid evidence to the existence of physical proof but that proof is behind locked doors or there isn't. The second is the issue of the physical proof being hidden under some global conspiracy wherein every government on Earth is so efficient in the art of covering up everything everywhere. That would be an impossibility. The only way such an achievement could be met is by some advanced form of mind control. Could be, believe, could be but that's a long report I've been working on and will dish it out when I can. So there in lie the points needing addressing. I've mentioned the second point many times. There is no way in the world you can convince me that every government on Earth is that efficient. They never agree on anything. Heck, if Jordan, Syria, Iran wanted to screw up the U.S. and it's allies beyond any recovery all they'd have to do is expose their UFO files. What's that noise in the distance? Nothing? Figures. Iran's had some awesome UFO tales and well documented. America's enemies I'm quite sure have had numerous CEs and it ain't that difficult to get them to the public. Al Jazeera the Arabic news arm broadcasts and publishes the most heinous acts in journalism history. If UFOs were that much of a problem believe you me they'd be broadcasting them like no tomorrow. Could you imagine the major impact that would occur if the Chinese, Arabic, and Indian news services all put out scathing inquiries and expose's on the U.S.'s UFO strong arm tactics? All they'd need for proof is that Gallop Poll from a few years back that lambasted the feds on their negligence about the UFO issue. That would sure light a fire under someone's buns. Thus the article does bring up some good points worth addressing as it's fitting time to break out the big guns and put em' on the table for the folks to peruse. Don't wait or ask the feds to have an open forum for disclosure, they're not going to do it. No news agency is going to do it either. We've seen the lying and stonewalling and character assassination going on for half a century already so why would they change? The public is interested for sure but their interests aren't being honorably addressed by their press nor their government. Considering that the mainstream press is now fully in the hands of the brown shirt thugs it's a wonder we even get weather reports anymore. The only way to beat this issue down is to have all UFO radio show hosts work together to field public calls and stories. Everyone would have to team up and do a non-stop 'dogpile on the rabbit' with no room for air. Pitch in and help Peter Davenport of the National UFO Reporting Center and Mr. George Filer too. We don't have much time gang, there are psychotics with weapons ready to unleash them at any time and our government is powerful enough to stop them but won't. It's only in the past few weeks we've actually stepped up to the plate to handle the border invasions so you can imagine what other laxes in intellect have left the barn doors opened elsewhere. I read yesterday how light speed had been manipulated in a lab. There're new stem cell breakthroughs every other day it seems. Nano technology keeps leaping ahead. What part of miracle age of technology and medicine do we not see in front of our faces? We have the ability to feed and clothe and medically treat and formally educate everyone on the planet but instead we allow our IDs or 'unconcious minds' to drive the car instead of us. We've got to stop beating around the bush ( pun intended ) and put the cards on the table or we'll be dealt aces and eights. My advice to the public on the UFO issue? Make a decision, stomp your feet, or die.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Davenport To Speak At Green Men Festival From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:18:50 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:18:50 -0400 Subject: Davenport To Speak At Green Men Festival Source: The Kentucky New Era - Hopkinsville, Kentucky http://tinyurl.com/d6t4m August 20, 2005 UFO Expert To Speak At Green Men Festival By Emily Burton eburton.nul After a lifetime of studying what many brush off as science fiction, Peter Davenport is relatively certain of two things. First, that UFOs exist and have been witnessed on Earth, and second, that the government has known about them for decades. As director of the National UFO Reporting Center in Seattle, Davenport has spent the last 11 years filing accounts and eyewitness reports of UFO sightings. The reporting center in Seattle consists of one phone, one fax, and one Web master, and is almost completely privately funded by Davenport and donations. Often, Davenport receives anonymous reports of UFO sightings in e-mails or phone calls from people who begins, "Please believe me, I'm not crazy." He has been interviewed by Peter Jennings, the History Channel and the Discovery Channel, to name a few. Davenport will regale the crowd at the Little Green Men Festival today with tales of what he believes are some of the more fascinating, provable cases reported. The festival, at the Hopkinsville-Christian County Conference and Convention Center, commemorates the 50th anniversary of the Aug. 21, 1955, report of an alien invasion at Kelly. As Davenport retells each sighting with an immense focus on scientific details, his out-of-this-world stories become more science and less fiction. "I have not just a mountain of data, perhaps a mountain range of data. And I assure you, it's strictly by accident," he said. Before Davenport graduated Stanford with degrees in Russian and biology, he received his MBA in finance and international business. Years before receiving his master's degree in genetics and biochemistry of fish, Davenport heard of the Kelly Green Men incident on the radio. The story from Kelly was one of several that piqued his interest in UFOs, which eventually led to his involvement in the National UFO Reporting Center. But one July night in 1954, Davenport's perspective of UFO sightings went from third-party listener to first-hand witness. He was 6 years old. Sitting in a 1953 Studebaker, Davenport was at a drive-in theater on the edge of the St. Louis Airport with his mom and brother when a strange object appeared to their right. "We didn't know it at the time, but my father, and people in the tower on the north side of the airport, were looking at the same object with their binoculars," he said. Imagine an object the apparent size of the moon, said Davenport. "It was bright red, the color of a red traffic signal. With perhaps just a shade of orange in it, and slightly oval. And stopped, almost stock-still, in the sky to the east of our location. People were getting out of their cars." For decades, his family would discuss that night and wonder, "what was that object?" Davenport said. "It was casting a red light ... all over the theater, all over the airport, as far as we could see." His sighting is one among literally thousands on his Web-site, www.ufocenter.com. But while there are many mentions of colored lights, flying triangles and hovering disks, Davenport is hesitant to say any two sightings are the same. Among the multitudes of sightings he's logged, Davenport will present Saturday his "best" documented cases, he said. Ever the scientist, Davenport's list of what constitutes good evidence of UFO activity reads like a textbook. "Once you have evidence, there's the question, is it accurate? Does it come from independent sources? Is it indelible in the sense that, do you have photographic evidence or just eye- witness accounts?" Take for example the 1998 UFO report from a former Canadian fighter pilot, who said he saw green balls of light in the sky. Or the 14 forestry workers in Washington who all witnessed a horseshoe-shaped object lift an elk from the forest and fly away with it. In St. Clair County, Ill, five years ago, "officers from eight police departments witness, pursue, and photograph a huge, triangular object," Davenport wrote from reports. Witnesses include a commercial pilot, a radar patrol officer, a former Navy Chief, a Federal Aviation Administration air traffic controller, and even an astronaut. Local officials and high- ranking government agents who know of nowhere else to go with reports of a UFO sighting now call him, Davenport said. "We are the facility to which law enforcement agencies, military facilities and the FAA report UFO events." By his own admission, about 70 percent or more of the reports to Davenport's hotline and Web-site have nothing to do with actual UFOs. But of the remaining 30 percent ... During a classified meeting on the East coast several years ago, with a government agency Davenport is not at liberty to identify, the exact scope of the government's involvement in their own UFO research was partially revealed, he said. "They identified themselves, ...and they said, 'Peter, we know who you are. We have visited your web-site extensively.' And they said, 'You appear to us to have information that we are very interested in.' They wanted to know more about a UFO that had been seen near a commercial airliner. After a four-hour meeting, they thanked Davenport and told him, "'Out of our sense of gratitude, we're going to tell you what our position about UFOs is in the U.S. government,'" he said. The officials told Davenport, "'Number one, we know that UFOs are real. Number two, we know that UFOs are what they appear to be. Namely, sophisticated craft under intelligent control. There's no doubt of that', they said. 'And number three, we in the government are a bit worried about them,'" recalled Davenport. But if the government knows anything about UFOs, they aren't about to crack, Davenport said. "Clearly, the U.S. government - from my vantage point I think I can say this safely - is doing everything in its power to quash interest in the subject of ufology in general. And in individual cases that are dramatic and well documented, and evident to a large body of people. Now, is that conspiracy or is that policy? I'm not sure I can answer that." Is there intelligent life cruising the night skies, and did it ever visit Kelly? If local lore can't convince us, maybe science and an extensive collection of similar stories can.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:40:27 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:25:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Rogerson >From: Adam Lowe <subjectla27583.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:24:28 -0400 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:49:48 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>This was a human hair. Alien/human hybrids are as next to >>impossible as you or I turning into kangaroos, or being able to >>survive a jump off the Empire State Building. >Why? Because real aliens would the product of a complete different
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Re: An Open Question To The List - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 16:46:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:15:47 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - White >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:03:09 -1000 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List <snip> >naive beliefs about the benign nature of the national security >system that covers up the ETH data. Many members in my group have suffered horrible torture under secret government programs which finally saw, though only partly, daylight. All of us suffer now because all levels of government refuse to even discuss evidence such as mind/body weapons which have been in the public domain for half a century, and which anyone can buy or build! A colleague who was drugged and kidnapped regularly, shunted around from one MKULTRA-participating university to another in New York state, has so many experimental surgery scars on her body that it looks like hieroglyphics. A non-medical purpose implant which shows on her xrays, had her xray declared to show nothing but ordinary tissue by a seniour doctor. One lawyer here in Hamilton, Ontario represented a government agent who was harassing selected members of the population viciously and tried to get out of that line of work, but was charged with criminal mental illness and locked up indefinitely. It took the lawyer four years to get him freed under a vow of silence and a new identity. We aren't guessing or speculating. We _know_, first hand, that the national security systems are anything _but_ benign! People who insist that intelligence agencies are benign are out
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Canadian M.P. Calls For Investigation Of UFOs From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:30:10 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:19:49 -0400 Subject: Canadian M.P. Calls For Investigation Of UFOs Canadian M.P. Calls for Public Investigation of UFOs From my blog: http://tinyurl.com/83t2x Statement by NDP Member of Parliament Hon. William Dean Howe For Hamilton South, Ontario): "There have been reports of U.F.O.'s in Canada for years, as there have been in every country. It has been, and still is, customary to subject reporters of these objects to every sort of ridicule and humiliation. However, I believe that it is long past the point when we can safely assume that every one of these people is drunk, neurotic, or just lying. Most reports come from people of good reputation, whose testimony would be accepted without question under any other circumstances. I wish to make clear that I do not support either side of the U.F.O. issue. There is not enough evidence to conclude that flying saucers exist, but there is too much unexplained evidence to ignore. It is my contention that the Canadian government should direct an appropriate department to conduct a continuing investigation into all reports. I believe a climate should be created in which Canadians can report what they see without fear of ridicule. The conclusions of these investigations should be published regularly. Most sightings can be shown to be naturally caused, but I suspect that even proof of visits from outer space would be more reassuring to the public than Canada's present attitide of ignoring them in hopes that they will go away." The good news? That a Member of Parliament would make such a statement. The bad news? It happened thirty-nine years ago, on 21 April, 1966 - even though the statement could have been made yesterday, because, in the years since, almost nothing has changed. [See House of Commons Debates, First Session, Twenty Seventh Parliament, 15 Elizabeth II, Volume IV, 1966, p. 4149] Which leaves us with two questions: 1. Why? 2. Where is the William Dean Howe of 2005?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Crownpoint Couple Spots UFO Twice From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:40:19 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:40:19 -0400 Subject: Crownpoint Couple Spots UFO Twice Source: The Independant - Gallup, New Mexico http://www.gallupindependent.com/2005/august/082005ufo.html August 20, 2005 Crownpoint Couple Spots UFO Twice By John Christian Hopkins Din=E9 Bureau CROWNPOINT =97 It was William Shakespeare, the erstwhile Bard of Avon, who first wondered "What light through yonder window breaks?" The same question has come once again to New Mexico, and no, not Shakespeare, N.M. On Wednesday and Thursday nights both between 9:25 and 10 p.m. Stephanie Jeff of Crownpoint reported seeing bright rotating lights appear suddenly in the sky and vanish just as mysteriously. "It was kind of scary at first," said Jeff, who has never seen anything like that before."They were bright lights, kind of rotating." The reddish-orange lights first appeared from the west on Wednesday, she said. After about a half hour they vanished. "I reported it to the Air Force," Jeff said. The following night, she said, there were more planes than usual flying overhead. But about 9:30 p.m. the strange lights again emerged from the western sky. When a plane came too close, Jeff said, the lights went out and never returned. To make sure she wasn't hallucinating, Jeff said she called her brother, Tony, in Dalton Pass and asked him to look outside. "He said he saw two lights flying about," Jeff said. Crownpoint Police Capt. Steve Nelson said no unidentified objects have been reported to the police. He could not remember ever hearing of a local UFO sighting, Nelson said. But Jeff knows she saw somethng. "It wasn't a star, because it just came right out of the sky. It rotated, and was very bright when it was pointed at us," Jeff said. "And we know what an airplane looks like, we know the difference between the lights on a plane." Reportings of unidentified flying objects are not uncommon. Some UFOs have been reported by prominent scholars. In 1949, Dr. Clyde Tombaugh, the discoverer of the planet Pluto, reported seeing a UFO over Las Cruces; four Air Force officers reported an unidentified flying object over Taos in 1952; and several motorists reported seeing a brightly lit space craft land in a field near Springer in 1996. Reports of UFOs can be traced back thousands of years, even to ancient civilizations like Egypt and Babylon.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Marin Filmmaker Takes UFOs Seriously From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:45:52 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:45:52 -0400 Subject: Marin Filmmaker Takes UFOs Seriously Source: Marin Independant Journal - Novato, California http://marinij.com/lifestyles/ci_2960957 Aug 21, 2005 Marin Filmmaker Takes UFOs Seriously, Even If Nobody Else Does Rick Polito James Fox has heard all the jokes, seen all the smirks. He can sense the disbelief long before the eyes start rolling. The Bolinas filmmaker doesn't blame anybody for any of it. He rolls his eyes, too. "I would say 95 percent of it is absolute hogwash," he says of UFOlogy and the cottage industry of conventions, books, movies, tapes and trinkets orbiting a widespread belief that extraterrestrial spacecraft are cruising earthly airspace. But that didn't dissuade Fox from throwing his name into the debate. The boyish 37-year-old who says he "was never known for being the quiet child" has produced not one but two UFO documentaries. He just looked at the other 5 percent. "This is the 5 percent we focus on," Fox says. That 5 percent keeps him right in the middle of eye-rolling territory. On Friday, the eyes roll right into Mill Valley. "Out of the Blue," the second of Fox's two UFO documentaries, screens at the 142 Throckmorton theater. Next month, a "director's cut" airs on the Sci-Fi Channel. At this point, Fox doesn't know which is harder to believe, that aliens are visiting Earth on a regular basis or that a guy who grew up in Bolinas and majored in French at San Francisco State is making documentaries about flying saucers. And being taken seriously. At least by some. Fox's Web site quotes a positive review from Skeptic Magazine, and Stanton Friedman, a certified non-skeptic who has been on the flying-saucer lecture circuit for nearly 40 years, calls the latest film "one of the half-dozen best" UFO documentaries. And he's seen all of them. "There's an awful lot of garbage out there," Friedman says. That's the sort of thing Fox heard when he started his research. When he told his family nearly 10 years ago that he was going to make a documentary about UFOs, the reaction was not entirely supportive. "They basically laughed at me," he recalls. His father, journalist and author Charles Fox, took it especially hard. "He probably spent a good year and a half trying to turn me around," Fox recalls, remembering the patriarch's "deep sense of paternal obligation." But he made the documentary anyway. A "sighting" Fox experienced in the desert 120 miles northwest of Las Vegas was all the proof he needed that the proverbial "something" was out there. He was driving with friends at nightfall when they saw a "saucer-shaped object" flying, darting, stopping, hovering, doing all the things that UFOs are supposed to do. He even videotaped it. It's a bad videotape. The real ones always are, he maintains. "If it were too good it would have to be fake," Fox says. And when he told people about it and showed them the tape, he got the same response he might have given anybody who made such a claim. "They all said, 'What drugs were you on?'" Fox wasn't on drugs. He was on a mission. "I wanted to see what this was all about," he says. He started by looking at what had already been done. "I got all the UFO films I could possibly get my hands on, and I thought they were awful," he says. Using that as a guide, Fox limited the interviews to what he calls "trained observers," mostly astronauts and military officers. And he threw out any accounts that he "didn't add up." He also stopped telling people he was from Bolinas. "I just said 'Marin.'" What he was left with was what he thought were credible stories. "When you get to the 15th or 20th high ranging military officer you sort of have to ask, 'How much longer can I dismiss this evidence?'" Fox says. When the first documentary, "UFOs: 50 Years of Denial," got picked up by the Discovery Channel, Fox felt vindicated, perhaps not by the skeptics but by his family. "The entire family was swept off their feet," he says. The second film simply grew out of the first. He became a part of the UFO community, a person to call. He recalls hearing the refrain "This is the film we've all been waiting for." None of it has been easy. The step through what Friedman calls "the laughter curtain" never is. "Fear of ridicule" is what keeps a lot of UFO believers quiet, Friedman says. The UFO lecturer and late-night radio guest says Fox had the same motivation many in the field have to march through a gauntlet of skeptical derision. "Many of us who have spent a great deal of time on this subject are convinced we're dealing with the biggest story of the millennium," Friedman says. When Fox contacted him, Friedman says his advice was simple. "If you're going to do this, you'd better have the facts in hand." Fox's father had some of the same worries. When his son told him the subject of his documentary, the elder Fox was afraid his son was surrendering all hope of credibility. "I said, 'Don't go there. Nobody goes there,'" Charles Fox recalls. "That's Looney Tunes." But the son who "always danced to his own tune" made the films anyway. Charles Fox says his son "pulled it off." The films "work in that they inject a bubble of doubt into your head." Fox brought his son along on many magazine assignments and believes that some of the questioning mentality may have been passed down. "I think that got into his blood," Fox says, but he doesn't know where his son got that urge to challenge the accepted wisdom from such extreme angles. The younger Fox isn't sure why he does it, either. Fox calculates he made $7 or $8 an hour" producing "Out of the Blue." He just has a need to question things, to sort it out. "I like to try to make a difference," he says. Now the filmmaker is stepping into a different fray but with familiar landmarks. Friday's screening will be a benefit for Energy Next, a nonprofit Fox founded to produce a new documentary, this time on "alternative energy." Fox says he wants to rip the "alternative" label off the subject and take the idea of green living out of the "hairy armpits and raisinette date cake" demographic. But he's stepping into the conspiracy theory landscape again. And he knows it. Fox talks about an all-powerful international oil industry quashing energy-saving innovation. He's ready to bring up whispered stories about carburetors that gave V-8s 65 mpg. He's ready to look for patents on world-changing technologies that were deliberately derailed by the energy concerns. "The whole word 'alternative energy,'" he says. "Is almost like saying 'flying saucer.'" He's ready for the eye rolling again. MARIN PROFILES Name: James fox - Age: 37 - Hometown: Bolinas - Occupation: Filmmaker If You Go
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Re: The Proof Is Out There - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 09:00:33 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:50:43 -0400 Subject: Re: The Proof Is Out There - Lehmberg >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:23:57 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: The Proof Is Out There >>Source: The Guardian >>http://tinyurl.com/dzptl >>Thursday August 18, 2005 >>The Proof Is Out There... >>Seth Shostak is perfectly prepared to believe that aliens have >>visited Earth. Just give him one piece of solid evidence >I've posted my rebuttal to Seth's piece on my blog: >http://tinyurl.com/dksve Fellow motes; I did a point by point piece on this, too, right after the fact... at the Archive: http://tinyurl.com/a4asm with illustration: http://www.alienview.net/news.html#lehmsho You might have missed it... or avoided it outright! <g> It was forwarded to Arianna Huffington's Blog, too... The Rense site... UFO Review, et al.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Re: arvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:02:31 +1000 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:53:55 -0400 Subject: Re: arvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Chalker >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:40:27 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Adam Lowe <subjectla27583.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:24:28 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:49:48 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>This was a human hair. Alien/human hybrids are as next to >>>impossible as you or I turning into kangaroos, or being able to >>>survive a jump off the Empire State Building. >>Why? >Because real aliens would the product of a complete different >evolution and would genetically be far more different from us >than slime mould or yeast. Peter, I will be responding to your irresponsible and uninformed takes on the Peter Khoury case in later messages, as the hour is rather late as I type this. However I thought your intellectual leap here needs an appropriate response. It is an issue I touched on my blog site in a post from July 3: http://tinyurl.com/dw2cf The whole subject of astrobiology is particularly volatile and fascinating given the contributions of people like Dr. David Darling (author of "The Extraterrestrial Encyclopedia - an alphabetical reference to all life in the Universe" (2000) and "Life Everywhere - The Maverick Science of Astrobiology" (2001)) and Dr. Simon Conway Morris Professor of Evolutionary Palaeobiology at the University of Cambridge. From my book "HAIR of the ALIEN" (pg. 247): "... Simon Conway Morris ... in Life's Solution: Inevitable Humans in a Lonely Universe" (using) our best evidence for life, our own on planet Earth, (argues) against the prevailing scientific evolutionary paradigm, he states that because of the ubiquity of evolutionary convergence, not only does life have an extraordinary propensity for navigating multiple pathways to precise biological solutions, but that it repeatedly reprises the same evolutionary solution, mediated powerfully by "the weirdest molecule in the Universe" - DNA. In short, Morris contends that on suitable planets out there the genetic tape of life will play out into more "inevitable humans." But, contends Morris, the rarity of Earth-like planets means that we are most likely living in a lonely universe. Others argue, however, that life is everywhere, driven by a "life principle" that favors the spread of life through the universe. To put it simply, the idea of humanoid-like aliens out there may not be as unlikely as you so confidently argue." As I won't be responding to your silly allegations that 1992 experience of Peter Khoury described in "Hair of the Alien" is either all about hoaxing or dalliances with hookers in more detail until a later message, I suggest in the meantime you actually read my book if you haven't and better acquaint yourself with the facts of the matter. I am still somewhat dismayed by the carelessness of your responses on this matter and hope that your airmchair psychosocial speculations on other
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Lowe From: Adam Lowe <subjectla27583.nul> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:09:21 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 13:02:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Lowe >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:40:27 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Adam Lowe <subjectla27583.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:24:28 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:49:48 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>This was a human hair. Alien/human hybrids are as next to >>>impossible as you or I turning into kangaroos, or being able to >>>survive a jump off the Empire State Building. >>Why? >Because real aliens would the product of a complete different >evolution and would genetically be far more different from us >than slime mould or yeast.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:28:44 +1000 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 13:08:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? - Chalker >From: Scott Miller <scott_fridrich_miller.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:52:27 +1000 (EST) >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:18:54 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:59:20 +1000 >>>Subject: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>>The Peter Khoury alien abduction milieu, which is presented as a >>>detailed case study in my book "HAIR of the ALIEN", represents a >>>potent example of what the Clancy/McNally research fails to >>>address - abduction cases that are clearly and consciously >>>recollected, with compelling physical evidence that appears to >>>support their legitimacy. >>Bill. Have proven beyond doubt that a) this hair comes straight >>from a human body and not say a wig made of human hair, b) that >>it is a pubic hair and not say a head hair, c) that it >>definately a woman's hair. >>For the sake of argument granting all three of the those >>suppositions, what is so anomalous about an Australian woman of >>predominately Irish family background having a Chinese maternal >>ancestor. This woman's mothers, mothers, mothers, mother's etc >>etc mother came from China, who knows how many generations back. >Bill, >The final DNA analysis was conducted by someone/group who still >remain unidentified - under the APEG. Consequently the >credentials & independence of the technical staff person[s] or >the lab[s] are unknown. >Too keep it all scientifically credible (forensic credentials & >independence), can you post up the addresse of the lab etc so we >can get in direct contact with the technical staff about their >findings. Scott, While I would obviously prefer to be able to do this I can't. I outline the reasons for that in my book: From Hair of the Alien: " ... by early 1998 my circle of 'invisible college' colleagues had expanded to include some scientists from the biochemical field. They were cautiously interested in UFOs, but mindful of the subject's stature as 'forbidden science', they insisted that their involvement would need to be conducted strictly on an anonymous basis. The biochemists were well established in their field, with well-regarded peer-reviewed publications and research. But job security and peer respect are powerful inhibitors of open declarations of interest, particularly given the long and sorry history of science in the UFO controversy. Because I had an existing and reasonable public profile and strong and established connections with key researchers worldwide, our group, which called itself the Anomaly Physical Evidence Group (APEG), decided that I would be the public face of this biochemical variant of the UFO 'invisible college'. The hair sample PCR DNA study was conducted by Ph.D. biochemists, well-established in their field, with well-regarded peer-reviewed publications and research in mainstream biochemistry. Their study was conducted in a professional private biochemistry laboratory. I have verified these credentials and visited the lab. As a laboratory and quality manager of some two decades experience I have no doubt about the credentials of the scientists who participated in this work. This background also makes me keenly aware of the risks such scientists take in being even remotely interested in these areas." This is a theme I look at in a post on my blog site from May 27: "The Visible College; Oh how I wish ...." - I have added the text of that post at the end of this message. Other DNA studies conducted by the same team on other evidence, such as samples from encounter cases on the midnorth coast of New South Wales and Queensland, an alleged alien claw from California, and the dress worn by Betty Hill during her famous 1961 abduction in New Hampshire, have not uncovered evidence as interesting as that found in the Khoury study. Independent scientists associated with the research on some of this other evidence were confident and impressed with the quality of the biochemists' work in those studies and the original Khoury research. The DNA work and its methodology has been spelt out in detail in the books appendices as at least a part answer to the difficult of having to maintain the scientist's confidentiality. I will gladly respond in further detail if required in a later message but it is very late and I have other committments in the morning. Regards, Bill Chalker http://theozfiles.blogspot.com ----- The title of this fascinating book, The Visible College, represents the obvious objective of all marginalised and hidden "invisible colleges" in diverse pirsuits. There are many "invisible colleges" within the UFO field - the direct result of ufology's image as "forbidden science" or marginalised science. Many scientists around the world contribute anonymously to further the cause of scientific investigation of the UFO mystery. Many undertake such efforts openly, sometimes risking their reputations in the bargain. Ann Druffel's excellent account of Dr. Jame's E. McDonald's fight for UFO science - Firestorm - is both a powerful statement of McDonald's extraordinary efforts and a sobering lesson of the possible costs of perhaps pushing the envelop too far. All of us who are committed to advocating serious scientific attention to the UFO phenomenon hope that some day the field of UFO research will not carry the stigma of borderline fringe activity. The UFO Enigma - A New Review Of The Physical Evidence," edited by Peter Sturrock (1999) represents an excellent statement of the potential scientific worth of the UFO mystery. At a UFO conference in Campbelltown, New South Wales, Australia, during February, 2003, I gave a lecture entitled "UFOs & Science - the Australian Experience" - a tribute to those who have contributed to the scientific investigation of UFOs in Australia. In that presentation I referred to Dr. Harry Messel (who advocated interest during the period 1953-54, but who now is very skeptical), Dr. Miran Lindtner (who carried out scientific investigations as part of the Sydney based UFO Investigation Centre, based in Sydney, until his untimely death in 1969), Harry Turner (nuclear physicist and intelligence analyst who fought a secret battle to bring science into official Australian UFO investigations), Dr. John Farrands (Chief Defence Scientist 1971-1977 who had an interest in the UFO subject), Dr. Don Herbison Evans (who developed a "UFO Indentification Kit"), Dr. Geoff Stevens (who applied thermoluminesence techniques to Australian UFO landing physical trace cases) and Dr. Michael Duggin (who worked with Harry Turner on the UFO problem and was a part of Allen Hynek's "invisible college"). Other scientists have contributed both publically and confidentially. These scientists have carried out their UFO contributions in a number of different ways, some from the invisible college perspective and others from visible college perspective. The choice is often dictated by concerns about job tenure and preservation of reputation given the uncertain dynamics and results inherent in revealing significant levels of active interest. UFO researchers should provide appropriate environments for scientists willing to make either sorts of contributions in postive and worthwhile ways. Hopefully at some point a kind of critical mass will be reached where there will not be any negative consequences of open expressions of serious interest by scientists in the UFO subject. Even now, with some noteable exceptions, the environment and reception for interested scientists is far from certain. Historian Gary Werskey's 1978 book, The Visible College, describes the early activities of one of my scientific heroes. He describes the legacy of Dr. Joseph Needham (1900-1995): "If Needham's gentle and sustained support of revolutionary China did not render him a dupe, neither did his obsession with the history of ancient China qualify him as an eccentric. Perhaps such a label was rather irrelevant in the case of someone who had already combined in his life a unique and continuing attachment to science and religion, communism and Anglo-Catholicism, and who moreover insisted on jumbling up these 'opposites'. What has really rescued Needham from crankishness, however, has been the seriousness, scale and success of his now world-famous series on Science and Civilization in China. It is a work of prodigious scholarship, possibly, in the words of one reviewer, 'the greatest single act of historical synthesis and intercultural communication ever attempted by one man'." Robert Temple provides an accessible 'summary' of Needham's work in The Genius Of China - 3,000 Years Of Science, Discovery And Invention (2002). Needham himself was particularly critical of western historians who spoke of 'our' science and 'our' modern culture. In the wonderfully entitled book (at least for the chemist in me) "The Grand Titration: Science and Society in East and West" (1969) Needham makes keen points that have some resonance for the emerging presence of Chinese ufology, even though he was of course just referring to science: "Surely it would be better to admit that men of the Asian cultures also helped to lay the foundations of mathematics and all the sciences in their medieval forms, and hence to set the stage for the decisive breakthrough which came about in the favourable social and economic milieu of the Renaissance. Surely it would be better to give more attention attention to the history and values of these non-European civilizations in actual fact no less exalted and inspiring than our own. Then let us give up that intellectual pride which boasts that 'we are the people, and wisdom was born with us'. Let us take pride enough in the historical fact that modern science was born in Europe and only in Europe, but let us not claim thereby perpetual patent thereon. For what was born in the time of Galileo was a universal palladium, the salutary enlightenment of all men without distinction of race, colour, faith or homeland, wherein all can qualify and participate. Modern universal science, yes; Western science, no!" Given this perspective, returning to a UFO theme, more modern focuses, such as the newly emerging ufological manifestations such as in China, and others outside the Ufological heartland of the United States, and indeed of the newer ufology, represented by new and often much younger players, all have something to contribute to this fascinating subject. Equally the older ufological players, and even older UFO legacies, from much older cultures, can also contribute to our greater understanding of the UFO mystery.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 11:38:52 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 13:11:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Friedman >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:40:27 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Adam Lowe <subjectla27583.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:24:28 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:49:48 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? > >>>This was a human hair. Alien/human hybrids are as next to >>>impossible as you or I turning into kangaroos, or being able to >>>survive a jump off the Empire State Building. >>Why? >Because real aliens would the product of a complete different >evolution and would genetically be far more different from us >than slime mould or yeast. Peter this is an interesting proclamation having no basis in fact or logic. But as soon as one allows for interstellar travel... no big deal - than one must also allow for migration and colonization. We could have been somebody's colony... or the Devil's Island of the neighborhood where they dropped off the bad guys and gals a long time back.Georgia and Australia were settled by prisoners. Also as one notices our incredible developments in reproductive technology, DNA sorting, etc., one would expect that an advanced civlization would know a lot about that as well as about electronics and rocketry and "paranormal powers'. They may also be sharp enough to realize that many Earthling men would prefer sex rather than sperm extraction. Why not just admit how
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 21 Re: Canadian M.P. Calls For Investigation Of UFOs From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 11:47:23 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 13:14:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Canadian M.P. Calls For Investigation Of UFOs >From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:30:10 EDT >Subject: Canadian M.P. Calls For Investigation Of UFOs >Canadian M.P. Calls for Public Investigation of UFOs >From my blog: >http://tinyurl.com/83t2x >Statement by NDP Member of Parliament Hon. William Dean Howe >For Hamilton South, Ontario): >"There have been reports of U.F.O.'s in Canada for years, as >there have been in every country. It has been, and still is, >customary to subject reporters of these objects to every sort of >ridicule and humiliation. However, I believe that it is long >past the point when we can safely assume that every one of these >people is drunk, neurotic, or just lying. Most reports come from >people of good reputation, whose testimony would be accepted >without question under any other circumstances. >I wish to make clear that I do not support either side of the >U.F.O. issue. There is not enough evidence to conclude that >flying saucers exist, but there is too much unexplained evidence >to ignore. It is my contention that the Canadian government >should direct an appropriate department to conduct a continuing >investigation into all reports. I believe a climate should be >created in which Canadians can report what they see without fear >of ridicule. The conclusions of these investigations should be >published regularly. Most sightings can be shown to be naturally >caused, but I suspect that even proof of visits from outer space >would be more reassuring to the public than Canada's present >attitide of ignoring them in hopes that they will go away." >The good news? >That a Member of Parliament would make such a statement. >The bad news? >It happened thirty-nine years ago, on 21 April, 1966 - even >though the statement could have been made yesterday, because, in >the years since, almost nothing has changed. >[See House of Commons Debates, First Session, Twenty Seventh >Parliament, 15 Elizabeth II, Volume IV, 1966, p. 4149] >Which leaves us with two questions: >1. Why? >2. Where is the William Dean Howe of 2005? >To be continued..." Hi Paul, Here is what would happen should this be brought up on the floor of the "House" as a Resolution, today. Remember it would most likely be an opposition member who makes the introduction. There would be the inevitable cat calls and hoots of derision, "Hey you fly is down" or "I can see your pantyline" or "Your skirt is hiked up in the back", "You still beating that hooker - oh, sorry..you married her?"* while the member was going through the "whereases" and attempting to get to the "be it resolved". At the end the Speaker will say, "The notice is tabled", and the Resolution [say 2,654] will die on the Order paper. With our luck, Paul Martin would introduce the resolution and there goes the credibility aspect. For you Americans,British, French, Italians, Mexicans etc. Martin is our Prime Minister. Don Ledger * These are just a few of the many remarks [interjections-buried in the cat calls] I've heard in the earphones while recording for Hansard over a period of 21 years before getting into the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Frison From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 13:44:01 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:55:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Frison >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:49:48 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:41:43 -0500 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>This was a human hair. Alien/human hybrids are as next to >>impossible as you or I turning into kangaroos, or being able to >>survive a jump off the Empire State Building. Well, it seems you're rock solid certain about that! I'm not! But even ignoring the astounding things being accomplished in the fields of genetics today, I guess it's also rock solid certain that aliens couldn't have abducted a few humans at some point and are using them in such activities as Khoury reports, or are using offspring/descendants of such abducted persons, or have stolen sperm/ova and have human specimens as a result of such sperm/ova collection, or have cloned living humans, or even have human descendants from older human civilizations working with them. No, it's quite impossible for aliens to be here and it's quite impossible for aliens to have created human-alien hybrids, and it's quite impossible to have any scenario in which a 'pure' (genetically) human could be working with aliens. There are no possible anomalous ways a human hair could be involved. Has to be from a hooker! >Apparently you have been reduced to declaring the experience a >priori impossible, there being no shred of evidence for the >hypothetical prostitutes you have irresponsibly conjured up in >what might be called an altered state of conscience. Jerry, this is a very important point! I'd like to right now ask Peter Rogerson what piece of evidence, or even just piece of information, he is privy to that supports his explanation that Peter Khoury was consorting with prostitutes. I mean, he has quite definitely stated it was either a "hoax or hooker." So, what does he have to support making such an accusation and I'm referring especially to the hooker allegations. Also, why did it have to be hookers? Even if Khoury did confuse, while in an altered state of consciousness, a menage a trois session that did not include his wife, couldn't it just have been with two lady friends? Why the need to impugn Khoury's character even more by saying he was resorting to hookers, rather than some liberal female friends of his? I mean, it was either "hoax or hooker" and there's no other possibility, according to Rogerson. So I want to know what evidence or information Rogerson has to make such a strong statement about Peter Khoury! He _has_ to have _some_ kind of evidence or information to make this kind of statement. You just don't make such allegations of someone without cause. Clearly, he must have some significant information about the Khoury case that Bill Chalker and the rest of us on this list don't have. Let's receive that information! >>But please note I am not saying that I believe such a literal >>interpretation is the correct one. The hair (sex unknown) could >>have come from any number of sources. But I thought you (Rogerson) said it could only be from a hooker? It shouldn't be hard for a team of private investigators, as Rogerson has suggested, to hit the streets, ask questions of the low life, and flush out a tall, big-eyed, one-nippled hooker having a bad hair day. How many can there be of that ilk? How many can there be that fit this description? She should stick out like a sore thumb. Maybe we should concentrate on finding her instead of wasting our time with the fine scientific and forensic work Bill Chalker has been getting done because the team of private investigators could beat the truth out of her quicker than waiting for the results of any DNA tests and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:17:55 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:56:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Rimmer >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:02:31 +1000 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >However I thought your intellectual leap here needs an >appropriate response. It is an issue I touched on my blog site >in a post from July 3: >http://tinyurl.com/dw2cf >The whole subject of astrobiology is particularly volatile and >fascinating given the contributions of people like Dr. David >Darling (author of "The Extraterrestrial Encyclopedia - an >alphabetical reference to all life in the Universe" (2000) and >"Life Everywhere - The Maverick Science of Astrobiology" (2001)) >and Dr. Simon Conway Morris Professor of Evolutionary >Palaeobiology at the University of Cambridge. >>From my book "HAIR of the ALIEN" (pg. 247): >"... Simon Conway Morris ... in Life's Solution: Inevitable >Humans in a Lonely Universe" (using) our best evidence for life, >our own on planet Earth, (argues) against the prevailing >scientific evolutionary paradigm, he states that because of the >ubiquity of evolutionary convergence, not only does life have an >extraordinary propensity for navigating multiple pathways to >precise biological solutions, but that it repeatedly reprises >the same evolutionary solution, mediated powerfully by "the >weirdest molecule in the Universe" - DNA. In short, Morris >contends that on suitable planets out there the genetic tape of >life will play out into more "inevitable humans." But, contends >Morris, the rarity of Earth-like planets means that we are most >likely living in a lonely universe. Others argue, however, that >life is everywhere, driven by a "life principle" that favors the >spread of life through the universe. Yes, another wonderful sounding theory based on a sample of, ermm, one. >To put it simply, the idea of humanoid-like aliens out there may >not be as unlikely as you so confidently argue." "Humanoid-like" is quite different to genetically similar. There would be no evolutionary connection between "humanoid-like"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:21:25 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:59:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? - Rimmer >From: Scott Miller <scott_fridrich_miller.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:52:27 +1000 (EST) >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:59:20 +1000 >>Subject: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >Bill, >The final DNA analysis was conducted by someone/group who still >remain unidentified - under the APEG. Consequently the >credentials & independence of the technical staff person[s] or >the lab[s] are unknown. >Too keep it all scientifically credible (forensic credentials & >independence), can you post up the addresse of the lab etc so we >can get in direct contact with the technical staff about their >findings. I wouldn't think so. Nobody ever gives the names and addresses
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:23:23 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:14:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Rogerson >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:02:31 +1000 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:40:27 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? > >>>From: Adam Lowe <subjectla27583.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:24:28 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:49:48 +0100 >>>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>>This was a human hair. Alien/human hybrids are as next to >>>>impossible as you or I turning into kangaroos, or being able to >>>>survive a jump off the Empire State Building. >>>Why? >>Because real aliens would the product of a complete different >>evolution and would genetically be far more different from us >>than slime mould or yeast. >Peter, >I will be responding to your irresponsible and uninformed takes >on the Peter Khoury case in later messages, as the hour is >rather late as I type this. >However I thought your intellectual leap here needs an >appropriate response. It is an issue I touched on my blog site >in a post from July 3: >http://tinyurl.com/dw2cf >The whole subject of astrobiology is particularly volatile and >fascinating given the contributions of people like Dr. David >Darling (author of "The Extraterrestrial Encyclopedia - an >alphabetical reference to all life in the Universe" (2000) and >"Life Everywhere - The Maverick Science of Astrobiology" (2001)) >and Dr. Simon Conway Morris Professor of Evolutionary >Palaeobiology at the University of Cambridge. >>From my book "HAIR of the ALIEN" (pg. 247): >"... Simon Conway Morris ... in Life's Solution: Inevitable >Humans in a Lonely Universe" (using) our best evidence for life, >our own on planet Earth, (argues) against the prevailing >scientific evolutionary paradigm, he states that because of the >ubiquity of evolutionary convergence, not only does life have an >extraordinary propensity for navigating multiple pathways to >precise biological solutions, but that it repeatedly reprises >the same evolutionary solution, mediated powerfully by "the >weirdest molecule in the Universe" - DNA. In short, Morris >contends that on suitable planets out there the genetic tape of >life will play out into more "inevitable humans." But, contends >Morris, the rarity of Earth-like planets means that we are most >likely living in a lonely universe. Others argue, however, that >life is everywhere, driven by a "life principle" that favors the >spread of life through the universe. >To put it simply, the idea of humanoid-like aliens out there may >not be as unlikely as you so confidently argue." >As I won't be responding to your silly allegations that 1992 >experience of Peter Khoury described in "Hair of the Alien" is >either all about hoaxing or dalliances with hookers in more >detail until a later message, I suggest in the meantime you >actually read my book if you haven't and better acquaint >yourself with the facts of the matter. I am still somewhat >dismayed by the carelessness of your responses on this matter >and hope that your airmchair psychosocial speculations on other >matters are better informed. As my collegue John Rimmer also suggests you are clearly misreading Morris's view that xenoids would be upright walkers looking something vaguely like human beings as meaning that they would be in fact humans Morris's views are a minority, and his beliefs that ET life would be both rare and humanoid are driven as much by his conservative Christianity as by science. Conservative Christians tend to have problems with ET life which other religions don't because of the doctrine of the Incarnation, and of human's being made in God's image. Jesus as a Klingon or Vulcan might be acceptable, but a silicon shelled turtle swimming in seas of bromine is just beyond the pale. Morris' idea of convergent evolution falls at first hurdle because it predicts lots of bipedal mammals here on earth, which we don't find. The views on evolution expressed by many astronomers are largely old fashioned, and based on simplistic notions of progress _up from the ape_. Modern views see evoltion as a bush not a ladder and most defiantly with no preferred direction. I note this anti-Darwinian, trend, which seeks to try and alienate (pun intended) humankind from its biosphere, runs like a thread through ufology. Its dissent from the mainstream is always in a reactionary direction, towards the comforting beliefs of yesterday. Human beings (even if ET and a slightly different shape) are the centre of everything and the _purpose_ of evolution, rather than the accidental product of the evolutionary process on one planet. For the case in hand I cannot grasp your argument. All you seem to be doing is replacing human hookers with ET sex tourists. I
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: Canadian M.P. Calls For Investigation of UFOs From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 16:55:46 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:17:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Canadian M.P. Calls For Investigation of UFOs >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 11:47:23 -0300 >Subject: Re: Canadian M.P. Calls For Investigation Of UFOs >>From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:30:10 EDT >>Subject: Canadian M.P. Calls For Investigation Of UFOs >>Canadian M.P. Calls for Public Investigation of UFOs >>From my blog: >>http://tinyurl.com/83t2x <snip> >Here is what would happen should this be brought up on the floor >of the "House" as a Resolution, today. Remember it would most >likely be an opposition member who makes the introduction. There >would be the inevitable cat calls and hoots of derision, "Hey >you fly is down" or "I can see your pantyline" or "Your skirt is >hiked up in the back", "You still beating that hooker - oh, >sorry..you married her?"* while the member was going through the >"whereases" and attempting to get to the "be it resolved". At >the end the Speaker will say, "The notice is tabled", and the >Resolution [say 2,654] will die on the Order paper. Yes, Don, all of this may be true, but it would make the papers, and if the M.P. who raised it had (a) his party's support in doing so, and (b) a brief of good data to back up the question, then it would be a good start. Along those lines, it is my intention to send a copy of Best Evidence: Top 10 UFO Cases, our upcoming documentary for Space - production begins in September - to every Member of Parliament when it is completed, along with other supporting materials (if Dick Hall doesn't mind, I'd love to send along a photocopied chapter from UFO Evidence, Vol. II). Also, because current M.P.s are woefully unaware, by and large, of the history of the House of Commons, complete transcripts of every instance where the subject of UFOs was raised in the 1950s and 1960s - the Michalak case was discussed fairly extensively, and seriously - before the Condon Report put the kibosh on further inquiries. That will cost me some, but if even one M.P. decides to take the subject seriously, and raise it in the House, then it will be worth it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:27:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:30:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Reynolds >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 13:44:01 -0300 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:49:48 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:41:43 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? ><snip> >Jerry, this is a very important point! I'd like to right now ask >Peter Rogerson what piece of evidence, or even just piece of >information, he is privy to that supports his explanation that >Peter Khoury was consorting with prostitutes. I mean, he has >quite definitely stated it was either a "hoax or hooker." So, >what does he have to support making such an accusation and I'm >referring especially to the hooker allegations. ><snip> Eugene: I think Peter was being dramatic - writer's embellishment - just to make his point (that the Khoury thing doesn't sound right). This is what Archimedes was being when he yelled "Eureka." But for some reason, Listers hate literary dramatics and opt for the cold, dull, boring language that stultifies coversation and debate. Even Lehmberg is eschewed. (Well, that's another story.) So I accept the "hooker" designation of Khoury's account as a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:32:32 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:32:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Reynolds >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:17:55 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:02:31 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >"Humanoid-like" is quite different to genetically similar. There >would be no evolutionary connection between "humanoid-like" >aliens and humans... unless you're taking for the 'intelligent >design' road? ><snip> John:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:53:16 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:33:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:17:55 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:02:31 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? <snip> >Yes, another wonderful sounding theory based on a sample of, >ermm, one. John & List, A sample of one can't be used for prediction neither say, that Earth is unique, although some mistakenly claim that Occam's Razor is in favor - (but it's not, merely being advice not to multiply "causes" unnecessarily); or that Earth-like planets predominate, although the principle of `observer-norm' (another parsimony rule) _is_ in favor. Based on Earth as single sample we can't say "yay" or "nay" to any theory of life in the Universe. Cheers Ray D
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 08:25:51 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:35:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:21:25 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Scott Miller <scott_fridrich_miller.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:52:27 +1000 (EST) >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:59:20 +1000 >>>Subject: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>Bill, >>The final DNA analysis was conducted by someone/group who still >>remain unidentified - under the APEG. Consequently the >>credentials & independence of the technical staff person[s] or >>the lab[s] are unknown. >>Too keep it all scientifically credible (forensic credentials & >>independence), can you post up the addresse of the lab etc so we >>can get in direct contact with the technical staff about their >>findings. >I wouldn't think so. Nobody ever gives the names and addresses >of scientists who find anomalous evidence for ufologists. I >think it's because of an old charter, or something. Wow! A new _level_ for astringent mouth puckering. Like spooning up alum and lemon juice... old school! [muted golf clapping] Or something? Something like pragmatism, maybe? Something like wanting to keep a job or tenure? Something like keeping a necessary level of respect from your peers. Something like wanting to continue to support a family? Something like basic survival? Something like that, maybe? You really are quite astonishing, and I of course cannot mean that in a good way. Be that as it may, _you_ won't have to worry about the preceding. You are what the homocentric demands, support to the point of unjust levitation and the glad appreciation of the hijacked mainstream.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: Canadian M.P. Calls For Investigation Of UFOs From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:49:48 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:26:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Canadian M.P. Calls For Investigation Of UFOs >From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 16:55:46 EDT >Subject: Re: Canadian M.P. Calls For Investigation Of UFOs >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 11:47:23 -0300 S >>Subject: Re: Canadian M.P. Calls For Investigation Of UFOs >>>From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:30:10 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Canadian M.P. Calls For Investigation Of UFOs >>>From my blog: >>>http://tinyurl.com/83t2x ><snip> >>Here is what would happen should this be brought up on the >>floor of the "House" as a Resolution, today. Remember it >>would most likely be an opposition member who makes the >>introduction. There would be the inevitable cat calls and >>hoots of derision, "Hey you fly is down" or "I can see your >>pantyline" or "Your skirt is hiked up in the back", "You >>still beating that hooker - oh, sorry..you married her?"* >>while the member was going through the "whereases" and >>attempting to get to the "be it resolved". At the end the >>Speaker will say, "The notice is tabled", and the Resolution >>[say 2,654] will die on the Order paper. >Yes, Don, all of this may be true, but it would make the >papers, and if the M.P. who raised it had (a) his party's >support in doing so, and (b) a brief of good data to back up >the question, then it would be a good start. The only venue in which it would arise would be as a resolution. It could be offered up as a party reviewed Bill but the member would use up his/her allowable one or two per session. Making the papers would be a good bet, but you would have no control as to how it was presented in the house or the strength of the subject matter. >Along those lines, it is my intention to send a copy of Best >Evidence: Top 10 UFO Cases, our upcoming documentary for Space >- production begins in September - to every Member of >Parliament when it is completed, along with other supporting >materials (if Dick Hall doesn't mind, I'd love to send along a >photocopied chapter from UFO Evidence, Vol. II). >Also, because current M.P.s are woefully unaware, by and >large, of the history of the House of Commons, complete >transcripts of every instance where the subject of UFOs was >raised in the 1950s and 1960s - the Michalak case was >discussed fairly extensively, and seriously - before the >Condon Report put the kibosh on further inquiries. That will >cost me some, but if even one M.P. decides to take the subject >seriously, and raise it in the House, then it will be worth >it. It's worth a shot. Timing is critical. You don't want to send too late and risk the House closing for some reason and the member presenting has to toss it into a drawer and re-propose it at the beginning of the next session meaning that it has to be re-drafted as a bill and vetted by the party the member belongs to. Resolutions are easier but usually don't get as much "air time" other than the time it is introduced. But at that stage the media would pick up on it. As to how they would present the piece to the public is another matter. Private members and opposition members can't present Bills for First Reading if they involve the expenditure of money. So if a bill was proposed by an opposition member that seeked to create a commission or an agency to investigate UFOs it would be automatically ruled out of order by the Speaker since these would require financing and this financing has not been budgeted for by the Minister of Finance. Your best shot will be getting a resolution introduced that will likely die on the order paper. The advantage is media pieces as an oddity in the news. However there is the chance that a government member or even a minister will take notice.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:08:37 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:31:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Chalker >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:52:52 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 03:36:11 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:18:54 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:59:20 +1000 >>>>Subject: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? <snip> >>Peter, >>It seems you are not very familiar with the detail of the study. >>I encourage you to do so. While the original IUR report is >>readily available, my book "Hair of the Alien" give much greater >>detail and also covers the second phase of the work. <snip> >>Of course I understand, your perspective on these matters is >>more likely to be - it can't be, therefore it isn't. i.e. it >>never happened and therefore anyone who claims it might have, >>must be, by implication, untrustworthy. Hence, I guess your >>suggestion about the need for private detectives. <snip> >>You seem to have completely misunderstood the DNA findings, if >>you have studied them. <snip> >>>We only have Koury and his wife's word that this hair came in >>>any anomalous way. How many private detectives have you hired to >>>check into his life and character? >>Unlike you apparently, I did not make a knee-jerk armchair >>reaction, and assume that Peter and Vivian Khoury were >>untrustworthy, therefore mandating the need to hire a legion of >>private detectives to check out Peter Khoury's life and >>character. >>Instead over more than a decade I have interviewed and evaluated >>Peter's life and character. He has volunteered a lot of >>information of a type and extent that would clearly make people >>like you uncomfortable if the same approaches were made of you. >>I evaluated this information, and went way beyond just Peter, >>his wife, and wider family members. <snip> >>As stated in my book "Hair of the Alien" as a result of my >>detailed enquiries into his life and character I have found >>Peter Khoury to be "a friendly and reliable person. He has at >>times become passionate and volatile about his cause and does >>not tolerate those he feels dishonour the integrity of people >>who genuinely feel they have experienced an alien abduction. He >>remains open to whatever these experiences may turn out to be, >>but insists on the serious and ethical research and support of >>abductees." (page 45) I have found him to be a credible >>witness, who is often far harsher on himself, than some others >>are on him. He has withstood a lot of scrutiny from me and has >>been consistent and credible in his descriptions of his >>experiences. Indeed I found him rather more credible, >>consistent, open and cooperative than a lot of his critics. His >>commonsense and critical, but thoughtful, approach to his own >>experiences and that of others, in my mind, renders him as an >>asset to investigation and research, and he has been such, even >>beyond his own experiences. >Bill, >However unusual, this is a human hair from a human being with >part Irish ancestry, of which there are a lot in Australia. This is rather tedious, but yet again I have to say you do not understand the DNA data or you haven't read it. The results are certainly not this simplistic and I certainly would think you could not provide a person with the DNA profile described in detail in my book. Nor could I or our local skeptics, given your unfounded assertion that such people would be common here in Australia. However given your form so far you will no doubt continue to ignore the detail and try to allege a much more simplistic DNA profile. >Now either Khoury is more or less telling the truth and this >hair comes from a sex worker, or he is not and it could have >come from anywhere. If this hair comes from a sex worker, I >reckon the odds are more likely that she is plying her trade in >Australia, than she is a sex tourist from the lost city of >Shamballa, a Zeta Reticullan zoo or a parallel universe, or a >nymphomaniac time traveller. This is a stupid allegation based on no information. You defame Khoury on no more a credible basis than your token understanding of whatever source you are using. There appears to be little evidence you have seriously tried to address the detail of even the first phase of the work reported in IUR back in 1999, and you certainly give absolutely no indication that you have attempted to consider the more detailed material given in my book "Hair of the Alien." Had you actually read this material you will realise there is no clear indication given by Khoury that the experience in 1992 was sexual at all. The dynamics of his claimed experience only reveal that he was clothed during the encounter, as far as he can recollect, and he certainly makes no claim of having sex with the women. There may be evidence for some time discontinuity, but apart from the attempts to draw Khoury to her breast, the blonde's actions are rather limited. May be sex is a little different in your world view. At best maybe bizarre "foreplay". Sure the hair being found on his penis suggests to a lot of people that maybe sex occurred, but the manner of placement may even suggest deliberate placement. Such matters will no doubt be misrepresented or trivialised by you, as you have already done. Given the fact your take on the case dsoesn't even adequately reflect the facts reported and your take on the DNA evidence is totally flawed, your comments are at best irresponsible and at worse quite objectionable. Let me think. Do I give your call serious consideration given that it is based on misrepresentation and a lack of understanding, conjured up a moment of psychosocial armchair reverie? Or do I go on a very detailed credible assessment of the alleged facts over almost a decade of detailed research and investigation, anchored in detailed DNA studies, that lend more certainty to the matter, than your tedious misrepresentations and sordid defamations? Clearly I consider your comments rubbish and will continue to do so while you so recklessly rant on. > >Then there is the matter of Ks injury, according to one web >account this was caused by an accident at work, according to >another he got beaten up. Exactly what happened and why? Could >there be a connection between the two events. Here you at least allude to your references, and they don't include my book. There I mention the situation. I also do it in various web references. I consider this in my efforts to examine alternatives to an actual encounter. However if you actually understand the DNA data you will realise it makes it very difficult to render this as an explanation. Yes, the July 1992 experience occurred while he was still recovering from a job site assault that occurred in May 1992. His cement rendering equipment had be misused and damaged by workers not associated with his small family company. Peter Khoury was severely assaulted by these 3 men while he was attempting to recover his equipment. One of the men was subsequently found guilty of assault, causing grevious bodily harm. The matter was far from satisfactorily resolved from Khoury's point of view. I examined the dynamics of this matter, the injury, his medication, recovery etc, and I conclude they did not cause the July 1992 event. >It increasingly seems that it is not the ufos but ufologists who >live in a parallel universe, one without crime, vice, liars, >drunks, junkies, con artists and general scallies, where >everything is sunny and beautiful, except for the nasty old >grays. I fear none of you would survive a week on the streets of >any of our major cities with this attitude. Peter, more pyschosocial babbling with those comments. Having known Peter Khoury for more than a decade now, with much of that time devoted to detailed scrutiny of his claims and evidence, along with his background and life, I have little doubt, that despite his strange experiences, he has a firm grasp on the realities of our consensus world. Your wreckless and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:17:30 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:33:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Chalker >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:25:46 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:49:50 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:51:31 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:18:54 +0100 >>>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>>>>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:59:20 +1000 >>>>>Subject: Harvard Exorcising It's UFO Demons? >>>We only have Koury and his wife's word that this hair came in >>>any anomalous way. How many private detectives have you hired to >>>check into his life and character? >>>Congratulations, Peter. You have just proved that you are at >>>heart a fascist. >>Last evening Peter's words set off an ethical trip-wire, thus my >>blunt reflexive response, about which I have had second >>thoughts. >>As I have reflected on this since then, I have decided to >>presume that this was his idea of a joke. On that presumption, I >>withdraw my accusation, extend an apology, and offer some >>further words of clarification. (All of the above are negated, >>of course, if Peter Rogerson says he _wasn't_ joking.) ><snip> >In general its a rhetorical point, saying that ufologists have >neither the time, resources or expertise or right to investigate >the lives of witnesses to the extent that would be needed to >really find out what makes them tick. In Chalker's case I really >mean it. The guy must have put quite of money and a heck of a >lot of of his reputation on the line here. Here is a case, which >if it is not a straightforward hoax might be even more murky. >Here is a guy who according to some accounts gets beaten up, and >finds himself in shall we say a compromising position with a >couple of ladies of easy virtue, while in an altered state of >consciouness. Its a case of hoax or hooker. And if hooker, is it >not more probable that she comes from the local area than from >the lost city of Shamballa, a Zeta Reticullan zoo, a parallel >universe or AD 10,000. If hoax then presumably K knows its >owner, or knows someone who does. Either way a PI or such may be >able to track the hair owner down and get to the bottom of the >story >Jerry if a guy cam up to you in a bar and asked you to ghost >write his account of his steamy 10 year simultaneous affairs >with Hilary Clinton and Condy Rice and all the politcal secrets >he thereby learned, would you >believe him, and what steps would you take to check his story Peter, this clearly deserves little more than a restatement of my earlier response to your comments: Given the fact your take on the case dsoesn't even adequately reflect the facts reported and your take on the DNA evidence is totally flawed, your comments are at best irresponsible and at worse quite objectionable. Let me think. Do I give your call serious consideration given that it is based on misrepresentation and a lack of understanding, conjured up a moment of psychosocial armchair reverie? Or do I go on a very detailed credible assessment of the alleged facts over almost a decade of detailed research and investigation, anchored in detailed DNA studies, that lend more certainty to the matter, than your tedious misrepresentations and sordid defamations? Clearly I consider your comments rubbish and will continue to do so while you so recklessly rant on.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:38:45 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:35:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Chalker >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:41:43 -0500 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:25:46 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:49:50 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? ><snip> >Peter, >>Here is a guy who according to some accounts gets beaten up, and >>finds himself in shall we say a compromising position with a >>couple of ladies of easy virtue, while in an altered state of >>consciouness. Its a case of hoax or hooker. And if hooker, is it >>not more probable that she comes from the local area than from >>the lost city of Shamballa, a Zeta Reticullan zoo, a parallel >>universe or AD 10,000. If hoax then presumably K knows its >>owner, or knows someone who does. Either way a PI or such may be >>able to track the hair owner down and get to the bottom of the >>story >Allow me to add this observation to my earlier post: >Based on nothing at all except your conviction that no such >thing as described (sexual interaction with an alien or hybrid >being) could ever have happened, you throw the sleaziest charges >against the informant, informing us, with no evidence beyond >psychic reading, that he consorts with prostitutes. Implicitly >following, of course, is the implication that such an individual >could therefore never tell the truth about anything. >It is one thing, of course, to state that the claim defies >belief and to leave it there. It is indeed hard to believe, as >high-strangeness UFO claims are by definition. It is quite >another to make up stuff to smear the claimant just because what >he says makes you uncomfortable. In that case you are obliged to >produce actual evidence to document your charges against his >honesty and character. Yes, Peter, even pelicanists are >answerable that elemental obligation, at least if they expect to >be taken seriously and not to be judged mere character >assassins. >I confess, however, that I have a certain fondness that >reference to the witness' having had sex with prostitutes "in an >altered state of consciousness." I presume that you don't mean >mere drunkenness, or you would have said so. What I wonder, >though, is this: how does one _pay_ a hooker, let alone find one >to invite into one's home, when one is in an altered state of >consciousness? >This is an issue which, I'm sure, we may expect many Magonia >articles to explore in detail. May we also confidently expect >that Magonians will congratulate themselves on having now solved >all sex-encounter UFO cases? Jerry, I agree that we can expect that Peter Rogerson and his fellow Magonians will typically claim they have got it all nailed down, despite the all to obvious lack of close enounters with the facts as demonstrated by Peter's comments on the Khoury case on this list. Declaration of his explanation, long before dealing adequately with the facts doesn't encourage much confidence in Peter Rogerson's "proclaimations." I confess, even in my book, that "high strangeness" cases, particularly abductions, had taken me down a path that suggested much of it had to do with the human condition, rather than aliens. However I had rather more difficulty disposing of "high strangeness" abduction cases like the experiences of Kelly Cahill and Peter Khoury, than Peter Rogerson. Such cases with their intriguing physical evidence arrested my drift to Magonian pastures. I still don't have the certainty that Peter Rogerson has on such matters, even despite his position being rather based on far less assessment of the facts and evidence. I remained open minded about what is going on, but I certainly argue that we should seriously examine such claims, when they are apparently supported by credible evidence, rather than
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:01:17 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:21:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Chalker >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:03:46 -0300 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:25:46 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>Its a case of hoax or hooker. And if hooker, is it >>not more probable that she comes from the local area than from >>the lost city of Shamballa, a Zeta Reticullan zoo, a parallel >>universe or AD 10,000. If hoax then presumably K knows its >>owner, or knows someone who does. Either way a PI or such may be >>able to track the hair owner down and get to the bottom of the >>story >It's either a hoax or a hooker, eh? You seem pretty sure there >are only two possible explanations. (Actually, you think there >is only one possible explanation, since if it's a hooker's hair >then that makes it a hoax.) >Sure, the hair apparently is human and Bill has heard that >before. I've already said that to him when I questioned if it >should be referred to as "hair of the alien" considering the >verdict of the DNA testing. However, you don't leave room for >any other explanation. >Khoury could be lying or he could be, for instance, confusing >his mental world with reality as a result of his head injury. >But there could be other scenarios - very anomalous ones - that >could result in a human hair being found where it was. There are >more things, Horatio! >It's a UFO investigator's job to determine if a witness is >credible or not and if a witness is hoaxing or not! Any UFO >investigator worth his/her salt doesn't have to 'pass the buck' >and hire private investigator's to do his/her own job. Bill >Chalker has done a proper job of assessing Khoury. Could he be >wrong about Khoury? Yes, of course! That's why he resists >drawing conclusions based on this one case and instead wants to >see the forensic approach applied in other cases to see if >similiar findings result. >The 'oriental component' in Khoury's case is enough to keep it >on the table for further analysis. It's not the first time an >'oriental' has allegedly been involved in a UFO or abduction >event. >There's a difference between a witness and a suspect! There's a >difference between an interview and an interrogation. A witness >is someone who has seen, heard, etc. some or all of an alleged >event and can possibly provide information that may be important >to someone interested in the event - you interview him/her. A >suspect is someone who may have committed some action, usually >criminal, in which case they may be deceptive or uncooperative - >you interrogate him/her. But until a witness gives you some >reason to question their integrity, you don't make them a >suspect. That doesn't mean you, as an investigator, believe the >testimony the witness provides purely on faith and that you >don't go out and do other investigative work to either confirm >or refute what the witness has provided. >UFO witnesses are not criminals; they're not suspects. As Jerry >Clark said, it makes the skin crawl to think they would be >subjected to private investigators after reporting an event. >They can be assessed without this - any competent UFO researcher >can accomplish this without resorting to such inappropriate >measures. >When someone who reports a UFO event is determined to be a fraud >or a con artist, etc. they then can be viewed more as a suspect >because they are, as a matter of fact, committing acts of fraud >against the UFO community and public - and they make the choice >to do so. If their cons and frauds are criminal offences then >they, like every other offender, become open to the scrutiny of >the police and private investigators. >Most 'Private Investigators' are usually bent on chasing to >ground something criminal or immoral. They have that mindset! >They aren't trained in ufological matters. I doubt they could >come close to doing a proper job here. >Most UFO witnesses aren't criminals. They're not offenders! >Don't treat them like they are! The police assess witnesses >everyday and they rarely do so by using the same methods they >apply in dealing with suspects and perps. For instance, when the >police arrive at a traffic accident scene which occurred as a >result of 'drunk driving', witnesses at the scene don't get run >through the police computers for possible criminal records, they >aren't subjected to background checks and credit checks, etc. - >they are not treated like criminals. But the police don't rely >exclusively on the witness testimony they gathered at the scene; >their traffic investigation and reconstruction team comes in and >does the necessary supporting investigation. >Even the police give witnesses the respect and privacy they >deserve and that they have a right to, and they do so when >investigating something as significant as crime. Do UFO >investigators have a mandate that justifies them using tactics >that even the police don't employ against >witnesses? >In a word, "No." Eugene, I agree with you here. The forensic scientific approach I am advocating, and you are clearly supporting, greatly helps investigators and researchers, if properly applied, add more certainty to their deliberations of UFO experiences, particularly "high strangeness" cases, anchored in potentially credible evidence. The Peter Khoury milieu is just one detailed case study in my book "Hair of the Alien" that I offer in support of this approach. Obviously I am not in agreement that witnesses in such cases should be automatically deemed suspect and subject to blow torch private investigator treatment. Some cases might ultimately play out in suspect territory but it doesn't take the strong arm tactics demanded by Peter Rogerson to unravel them. I've had sufficient experience of that to satisfy myself that my approach is reasonable. Some cases stand up well, others don't. The quality of the former and the experience of the latter, encourages me that there certainly seems to be something of considerable interest going on, that deserves continuing ongoing scrutiny. Certainty will come with solid research and investigation, not with armchair
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:38:45 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:32:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Chalker >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:41:43 -0500 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:25:46 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:49:50 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? ><snip> >>Here is a guy who according to some accounts gets beaten up, and >>finds himself in shall we say a compromising position with a >>couple of ladies of easy virtue, while in an altered state of >>consciouness. Its a case of hoax or hooker. And if hooker, is it >>not more probable that she comes from the local area than from >>the lost city of Shamballa, a Zeta Reticullan zoo, a parallel >>universe or AD 10,000. If hoax then presumably K knows its >>owner, or knows someone who does. Either way a PI or such may be >>able to track the hair owner down and get to the bottom of the >>story >Allow me to add this observation to my earlier post: >Based on nothing at all except your conviction that no such >thing as described (sexual interaction with an alien or hybrid >being) could ever have happened, you throw the sleaziest charges >against the informant, informing us, with no evidence beyond >psychic reading, that he consorts with prostitutes. Implicitly >following, of course, is the implication that such an individual >could therefore never tell the truth about anything. >It is one thing, of course, to state that the claim defies >belief and to leave it there. It is indeed hard to believe, as >high-strangeness UFO claims are by definition. It is quite >another to make up stuff to smear the claimant just because what >he says makes you uncomfortable. In that case you are obliged to >produce actual evidence to document your charges against his >honesty and character. Yes, Peter, even pelicanists are >answerable that elemental obligation, at least if they expect to >be taken seriously and not to be judged mere character >assassins. >I confess, however, that I have a certain fondness that >reference to the witness' having had sex with prostitutes "in an >altered state of consciousness." I presume that you don't mean >mere drunkenness, or you would have said so. What I wonder, >though, is this: how does one _pay_ a hooker, let alone find one >to invite into one's home, when one is in an altered state of >consciousness? >This is an issue which, I'm sure, we may expect many Magonia >articles to explore in detail. May we also confidently expect >that Magonians will congratulate themselves on having now solved >all sex-encounter UFO cases? Jerry, I agree that we can expect that Peter Rogerson and his fellow Magonians will typically claim they have got it all nailed down, despite the all to obvious lack of close enounters with the facts as demonstrated by Peter's comments on the Khoury case on this List. Declaration of his explanation, long before dealing adequately with the facts doesn't encourage much confidence in Peter Rogerson's proclaimations. I confess, even in my book, that high strangeness cases, particularly abductions, had taken me down a path that suggested much of it had to do with the human condition, rather than aliens. However I had rather more difficulty disposing of high strangeness abduction cases like the experiences of Kelly Cahill and Peter Khoury, than Peter Rogerson. Such cases with their intriguing physical evidence arrested my drift to Magonian pastures. I still don't have the certainty that Peter Rogerson has on such matters, even despite his position being rather based on far less assessment of the facts and evidence. I remained open minded about what is going on, but I certainly argue that we should seriously examine such claims, when they are apparently supported by credible evidence, rather than
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Life By intelligent Design From: Diana Cammack <cammack.nul> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:46:17 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:34:57 -0400 Subject: Life By intelligent Design Source: The New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/22/national/22design.html?th&emc=3Dth August 22, 2005 In Explaining Life's Complexity, Darwinists and Doubters Clash By Kenneth Chang At the heart of the debate over intelligent design is this question: Can a scientific explanation of the history of life include the actions of an unseen higher being? The proponents of intelligent design, a school of thought that some have argued should be taught alongside evolution in the nation's schools, say that the complexity and diversity of life go beyond what evolution can explain. Biological marvels like the optical precision of an eye, the little spinning motors that propel bacteria and the cascade of proteins that cause blood to clot, they say, point to the hand of a higher being at work in the world. In one often-cited argument, Michael J. Behe, a professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University and a leading design theorist, compares complex biological phenomena like blood clotting to a mousetrap: Take away any one piece - the spring, the baseboard, the metal piece that snags the mouse - and the mousetrap stops being able to catch mice. Similarly, Dr. Behe argues, if any one of the more than 20 proteins involved in blood clotting is missing or deficient, as happens in hemophilia, for instance, clots will not form properly. Such all-or-none systems, Dr. Behe and other design proponents say, could not have arisen through the incremental changes that evolution says allowed life to progress to the big brains and the sophisticated abilities of humans from primitive bacteria. These complex systems are "always associated with design," Dr. Behe, the author of the 1996 book "Darwin's Black Box," said in an interview. "We find such systems in biology, and since we know of no other way that these things can be produced, Darwinian claims notwithstanding, then we are rational to conclude they were indeed designed." It is an argument that appeals to many Americans of faith. But mainstream scientists say that the claims of intelligent design run counter to a century of research supporting the explanatory and predictive power of Darwinian evolution, and that the design approach suffers from fundamental problems that place it outside the realm of science. For one thing, these scientists say, invoking a higher being as an explanation is unscientific. "One of the rules of science is, no miracles allowed," said Douglas H. Erwin, a paleobiologist at the Smithsonian Institution. "That's a fundamental presumption of what we do." That does not mean that scientists do not believe in God. Many do. But they see science as an effort to find out how the material world works, with nothing to say about why we are here or how we should live. And in that quest, they say, there is no need to resort to otherworldly explanations. So much evidence has been provided by evolutionary studies that biologists are able to explain even the most complex natural phenomena and to fill in whatever blanks remain with solid theories. This is possible, in large part, because evolution leaves tracks like the fossil remains of early animals or the chemical footprints in DNA that have been revealed by genetic research. For example, while Dr. Behe and other leading design proponents see the blood clotting system as a product of design, mainstream scientists see it as a result of a coherent sequence of evolutionary events. Early vertebrates like jawless fish had a simple clotting system, scientists believe, involving a few proteins that made blood stick together, said Russell F. Doolittle, a professor of molecular biology at the University of California, San Diego. Scientists hypothesize that at some point, a mistake during the copying of DNA resulted in the duplication of a gene, increasing the amount of protein produced by cells. Most often, such a change would be useless. But in this case the extra protein helped blood clot, and animals with the extra protein were more likely to survive and reproduce. Over time, as higher-order species evolved, other proteins joined the clotting system. For instance, several proteins involved in the clotting of blood appear to have started as digestive enzymes. By studying the evolutionary tree and the genetics and biochemistry of living organisms, Dr. Doolittle said, scientists have largely been able to determine the order in which different proteins became involved in helping blood clot, eventually producing the sophisticated clotting mechanisms of humans and other higher animals. The sequencing of animal genomes has provided evidence to support this view. For example, scientists had predicted that more primitive animals such as fish would be missing certain blood-clotting proteins. In fact, the recent sequencing of the fish genome has shown just this. "The evidence is rock solid," Dr. Doolittle said. Intelligent design proponents have advanced their views in books for popular audiences and in a few scientific articles. Some have developed mathematical formulas intended to tell whether something was designed or formed by natural processes. Mainstream scientists say that intelligent design represents a more sophisticated - and thus more seductive - attack on evolution. Unlike creationists, design proponents accept many of the conclusions of modern science. They agree with cosmologists that the age of the universe is 13.6 billion years, not fewer than 10,000 years, as a literal reading of the Bible would suggest. They accept that mutation and natural selection, the central mechanisms of evolution, have acted on the natural world in small ways, for example, leading to the decay of eyes in certain salamanders that live underground. Some intelligent design advocates even accept common descent, the notion that all species came from a common ancestor, a central tenet of evolution. Although a vast majority of scientists accept evolution, the Discovery Institute, a research group in Seattle that has emerged as a clearinghouse for the intelligent design movement, says that 404 scientists, including 70 biologists, have signed a petition saying they are skeptical of Darwinism. Nonetheless, many scientists regard intelligent design as little more than creationism dressed up in pseudoscientific clothing. Despite its use of scientific language and the fact that some design advocates are scientists, they say, the design approach has so far offered only philosophical objections to evolution, not any positive evidence for the intervention of a designer. 'Truncated View of Reality' If Dr. Behe's mousetrap is one of the most familiar arguments for design, another is the idea that intelligence is obvious in what it creates. Read a novel by Hemingway, gaze at the pyramids, and a designer's hand is manifest, design proponents say. But mainstream scientists, design proponents say, are unwilling to look beyond the material world when it comes to explaining things like the construction of an eye or the spinning motors that propel bacteria. What is wrong, they ask, with entertaining the idea that what looks like it was designed was actually designed? "If we've defined science such that it cannot get to the true answer, we've got a pretty lame definition of science," said Douglas D. Axe, a molecular biologist and the director of research at the Biologic Institute, a new research center in Seattle that looks at the organization of biological systems, including intelligent design issues. Dr. Axe said he had received "significant" financing from the Discovery Institute, but he declined to give any other details about the institute or its financing. Stephen C. Meyer, director of the Center for Science and Culture at the Discovery Institute, compares the design approach to the work of archaeologists investigating an ancient civilization. "Imagine you're an archaeologist and you're looking at an inscription, and you say, 'Well, sorry, that looks like it's intelligent but we can't invoke an intelligent cause because, as a matter of method, we have to limit ourselves to materialistic processes,' " Dr. Meyer said. "That would be nuts." He added, "Call it miracle, call it some other pejorative term, but the fact remains that the materialistic view is a truncated view of reality." William Paley, an Anglican priest, made a similar argument in the early 19th century. Someone who finds a rock can easily imagine how wind and rain shaped it, he reasoned. But someone who finds a pocket watch lying on the ground instantly knows that it was not formed by natural processes. With living organisms so much more complicated than watches, he wrote, "The marks of design are too strong to be got over." Mainstream scientists say that the scientific method is indeed restricted to the material world, because it is trying to find out how it works. Simply saying, "it must have been designed," they say, is simply a way of not tackling the hardest problems. They say they have no disagreement with studying phenomena for which there are, as yet, no explanations. It is the presumption of a designer that mainstream scientists dispute, because there are no artifacts or biological signs - no scientific evidence, in other words - to suggest a designer's presence. Darwin's theory, in contrast, has over the last century yielded so many solid findings that no mainstream biologist today doubts its basic tenets, though they may argue about particulars. The theory has unlocked many of the mysteries of the natural world. For example, by studying the skeletons of whales, evolutionary scientists have been able to trace the history of their descent from small-hoofed land mammals. They made predictions about what the earliest water-dwelling whales might look like. And, in 1994, paleontologists reported discovering two such species, with many of the anatomical features that scientists had predicted. Darwin's Finches Nowhere has evolution been more powerful than in its prediction that there must be a means to pass on information from one generation to another. Darwin did not know the biological mechanism of inheritance, but the theory of evolution required one. The discovery of DNA, the sequencing of the human genome, the pinpointing of genetic diseases and the discovery that a continuum of life from a single cell to a human brain can be detected in DNA are all a result of evolutionary theory. Darwin may have been the classic scientific observer. He observed that individuals in a given species varied considerably, variations now known to be caused by mutations in their genetic code. He also realized that constraints of food and habitat sharply limited population growth; not every individual could survive and reproduce. This competition, he hypothesized, meant that those individuals with helpful traits multiplied, passing on those traits to their numerous offspring. Negative or useless traits did not help individuals reproduce, and those traits faded away, a process that Darwin called natural selection. The finches that Darwin observed in the Gal=E1pagos Islands provide the most famous example of this process. The species of finch that originally found its way to the Gal=E1pagos from South America had a beak shaped in a way that was ideal for eating seeds. But once arrived on the islands, that finch eventually diversified into 13 species. The various Gal=E1pagos finches have differently shaped beaks, each fine-tuned to take advantage of a particular food, like fruit, grubs, buds or seeds. Such small adaptations can arise within a few generations. Darwin surmised that over millions of years, these small changes would accumulate, giving rise to the myriad of species seen today. The number of organisms that, in those long periods, ended up being preserved as fossils is infinitesimal. As a result, the evolutionary record - the fossils of long-extinct organisms found preserved in rock - is necessarily incomplete, and some species appear to burst out of nowhere. Some supporters of intelligent design have argued that such gaps undermine the evidence for evolution. For instance, during the Cambrian explosion a half a billion years ago, life diversified to shapes with limbs and shells from jellyfish-like blobs, over a geologically brief span of 30 million years. Dr. Meyer sees design at work in these large leaps, which signified the appearance of most modern forms of life. He argues that genetic mutations do not have the power to create new shapes of animals. But molecular biologists have found genes that control the function of other genes, switching them on and off. Small mutations in these controller genes could produce new species. In addition, new fossils are being found and scientists now know that many changes occurred in the era before the Cambrian - a period that may have lasted 100 million years - providing more time for change. The Cambrian explosion, said David J. Bottjer, a professor of earth sciences at the University of Southern California and president of the Paleontological Society, is "a wonderful mystery in that we don't know everything yet." "I think it will be just a matter of time before smart people will be able to figure a lot more of this out," Dr. Bottjer said. "Like any good scientific problem." Purposeful Patterns Intelligent design proponents have been stung by claims that, in contrast to mainstream scientists, they do not form their own theories or conduct original research. They say they are doing the mathematical work and biological experiments needed to put their ideas on firm scientific ground. For example, William A. Dembski, a mathematician who drew attention when he headed a short-lived intelligent design institute at Baylor University, has worked on mathematical algorithms that purport to tell the difference between objects that were designed and those that occurred naturally. Dr. Dembski says designed objects, like Mount Rushmore, show complex, purposeful patterns that evince the existence of intelligence. Mathematical calculations like those he has developed, he argues, could detect those patterns, for example, distinguishing Mount Rushmore from Mount St. Helens. But other mathematicians have said that Dr. Dembski's calculations do not work and cannot be applied in the real world. Other studies that intelligent design theorists cite in support of their views have been done by Dr. Axe of the Biologic Institute. In one such study, Dr. Axe looked at a protein, called penicillinase, that gives bacteria the ability to survive treatment with the antibiotic penicillin. Dr. Meyer, of the Discovery Institute, has referred to Dr. Axe's work in arguing that working proteins are so rare that evolution cannot by chance discover them. What was the probability, Dr. Axe asked in his study, of a protein with this ability existing in the universe of all possible proteins? Penicillinase is made up of a strand of chemicals called amino acids folded into a shape that binds to penicillin and thus disables it. Whether the protein folds up in the right way determines whether it works or not. Dr. Axe calculated that of the plausible amino acid sequences, only one in 100,000 trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion - a number written as 1 followed by 77 zeroes - would provide resistance to penicillin. In other words, the probability was essentially zero. Dr. Axe's research appeared last year in The Journal of Molecular Biology, a peer-reviewed scientific publication. Dr. Kenneth R. Miller, a professor of biology at Brown University and a frequent sparring partner of design proponents, said that in his study, Dr. Axe did not look at penicillinase "the way evolution looks at the protein." Natural selection, he said, is not random. A small number of mutations, sometimes just one, can change the function of a protein, allowing it to diverge along new evolutionary paths and eventually form a new shape or fold. One Shot or a Continual Act Intelligent design proponents are careful to say that they cannot identify the designer at work in the world, although most readily concede that God is the most likely possibility. And they offer varied opinions on when and how often a designer intervened. Dr. Behe, for example, said he could imagine that, like an elaborate billiards shot, the design was set up when the Big Bang occurred 13.6 billion years ago. "It could have all been programmed into the universe as far as I'm concerned," he said. But it was also possible, Dr. Behe added, that a designer acted continually throughout the history of life. Mainstream scientists say this fuzziness about when and how design supposedly occurred makes the claims impossible to disprove. It is unreasonable, they say, for design advocates to demand that every detail of evolution be filled in. Dr. Behe, however, said he might find it compelling if scientists were to observe evolutionary leaps in the laboratory. He pointed to an experiment by Richard E. Lenski, a professor of microbial ecology at Michigan State University, who has been observing the evolution of E. coli bacteria for more than 15 years. "If anything cool came out of that," Dr. Behe said, "that would be one way to convince me." Dr. Behe said that if he was correct, then the E. coli in Dr. Lenski's lab would evolve in small ways but never change in such a way that the bacteria would develop entirely new abilities. In fact, such an ability seems to have developed. Dr. Lenski said his experiment was not intended to explore this aspect of evolution, but nonetheless, "We have recently discovered a pretty dramatic exception, one where a new and surprising function has evolved," he said. Dr. Lenski declined to give any details until the research is published. But, he said, "If anyone is resting his or her faith in God on the outcome that our experiment will not produce some
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 FT Over Iraq From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 09:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:37:03 -0400 Subject: FT Over Iraq I was perusing MUFON's Case Management System (CMS) and on a whim I checked to see if there were any reports from Iraq. There was only one. I can't reveal the submitters name but they're a soldier currently stationed in Baghdad. This is their report to MUFON (typo's and miss-spellings intact). "Sighting Report: Of course not a single person believed this when we radioed this in from our location. It was an extremely large Triangular craft with red glowing lights underneath it, fading in and out. It was a good distance out, bout three clicks. Flying really low above the tree line. Nothing like we have seen before. We see aircraft daily here in the warzone. Someone knows about this besides us, right after it dissapeared, aircraft appeared in its location circling the area as if too find it, or shoot it down. Made the report, but only recieved laughs, but we saw this huge craft with our own eyes." I'm going to make an attempt to contact this soldier although I'm not officially assigned to this case. I don't think I'll be going to Iraq though. BTW, for you current or former soldiers out there, How far is a 'click'?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Khoury Case [was: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:12:31 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:41:39 -0400 Subject: Khoury Case [was: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:27:55 -0300 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:25:46 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:49:50 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>Jerry if a guy cam up to you in a bar and asked you to ghost >>write his account of his steamy 10 year simultaneous affairs >>with Hilary Clinton and Condy Rice and all the politcal secrets >>he thereby learned, would you >>believe him, and what steps would you take to check his story >Yeah... now I see the light! How could I have been so gullible? >>From here on in, we don't have to waste time and effort >conducting meticulous forensic work, nor money on expensive DNA >testing, to solve the Peter Khoury case. All we have to do is >send a private investigator to ask questions on the street, >trying to find a poppy-eyed, one-nippled hooker who targets >johns with brain damage. Shouldn't be hard. And when we find >her, there shouldn't be any problem getting a confession out of >her after she's whipped with a rubber hose on her bare skin and >we confront her with the fact that she doesn't bleed. How's she >going to deny it then, eh? Once she knows the gig is up and >gives up Khoury - really rats him out - then it's case solved! >I mean, we ufologists have the right to take these criminals and >get the truth out of them any way we can. Eugene, I'm glad you are being satirical here, as I thought I might have to duck down to my nearest hardware store and add some suitably
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: Khoury Case - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:26:28 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:44:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Khoury Case - Chalker >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 09:25:12 -0500 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:49:48 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:41:43 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? <snip> >Hi, Peter, >>>It is one thing, of course, to state that the claim defies >>>belief and to leave it there. It is indeed hard to believe, as >>>high-strangeness UFO claims are by definition. It is quite >>>another to make up stuff to smear the claimant just because what >>>he says makes you uncomfortable. In that case you are obliged to >>>produce actual evidence to document your charges against his >>>honesty and character. Yes, Peter, even pelicanists are >>>answerable that elemental obligation, at least if they expect to >>>be taken seriously and not to be judged mere character >>>assassins. >>>I confess, however, that I have a certain fondness that >>>reference to the witness' having had sex with prostitutes "in an >>>altered state of consciousness." I presume that you don't mean >>>mere drunkenness, or you would have said so. What I wonder, >>>though, is this: how does one _pay_ a hooker, let alone find one >>>to invite into one's home, when one is in an altered state of >>>consciousness? >I note that the above goes unaddressed. Let's just hope, though, >that the witness, while looking for those prostitutes to take >home with him (in the Rogerson Scenario), wasn't _driving_ in >that altered state of consciousness. >>This was a human hair. Alien/human hybrids are as next to >>impossible as you or I turning into kangaroos, or being able to >>survive a jump off the Empire State Building. >You're blowing smoke, Peter. Even I, whose expertise consists of >what I read in the papers, know better. What genetic engineering >has already accomplished is remarkable; what it will accomplish >potentially is somewhere between astounding and disturbing, >maybe even unimaginable. This, in any event, is not an issue >with which we need concern ourselves when we have actual >empirical evidence (hair with an anomalous DNA profile) in hand. >Apparently you have been reduced to declaring the experience a >priori impossible, there being no shred of evidence for the >hypothetical prostitutes you have irresponsibly conjured up in >what might be called an altered state of conscience. This may be >a convenient rhetorical strategy for you, but that's all it is. >>From another point of view, it's not just unproved but, being >based on nothing beyond malicious speculation, contemptible. >>I am of course quite happy to accept that this hair did not come >>into the possession of the witness in the way he claims. If the >>story is a hoax, the hair could have come into his possession >>through almost any route. Perhaps he has had some kind of >>subjective experience and has procured this hair to provide >>_physical evidence_. This case must indeed be of interest to >>lawyers in that allegations of hoaxing are less libellous than >>taking the story at face value. >Curious how threatening a report like this is to you. That's why >- instead of suspending judgment, like the rest of us, as the >inquiry takes its course - you're flailing your arms, making >stuff up, and spouting pelicanist nonsense. Well, "pelicanist >nonsense" - I repeat myself. >The rest of us can only congratulate Bill Chalker on a masterly >investigation and wait patiently to see where it goes from here. >Unlike you, Bill has been properly reluctant to draw sweeping >conclusions as he urges further research into comparable samples >should they become available. One case like this does not prove >that abductions are real, physical events involving, in some >instances, sexual encounters with hybrid entities. At best, it >is merely consistent with the hypothesis. In itself it settles >nothing. I hope that improves your mood and helps you regain a >sense of perspective. >Meantime, like Bill, the rest of us feel no obligation to leap >to conclusions. We are too sensible either to claim conclusive >proof of an extraordinary event or to dismiss it with fanciful >counterexplanations devoid of empirical (or, as in the current >instance, ethical) justification. >In other words, we are possessed of open minds and something >called scientific curiosity. You might try them sometime. Jerry, You leave me with nothing to add beyond restating what seems obvious to you and many others, but somehow rather troubling for those of more limiting apppoaches. The Khoury story is a significant case study for promoting the potential worth of utilising a scientific forensic focus on such cases, in conjunction with other serious approaches. While it is not absolute proof it goes some way to adding data worthy of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: Khoury Case - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 02:52:16 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:47:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Khoury Case - Chalker >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:12:17 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:03:46 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? <snip> >I am making a rhetorical point that ufologists cannot possibly >undertake the kind of research that would be needed to determine >the truth or otherwise of many of the stories in ufology. Even >police officers, medical personnel and others with years of >specialist training have great difficulty in assessing people's >honesty >However, as one possible near literal explanation of K's >adventure is that he was set up to be the victim of a blackmail >attempt, perhaps it would be in his interests to get the police >involved in this case. Running the DNA against police data bases >might confirm and refute possible sources. After all if K were a >woman, we would assume that she might have been the victim of a >sex attacker. >But please note I am not saying that I believe such a literal >interpretation is the correct one. The hair (sex unknown) could >have come from any number of sources. Peter, This is simply more unsupported rhetoric of the same kind I have already responded to. Are you simply engaged in a tediously shallow rendition of the old water torture method - drip feed style? Like your previous unsupported musings it ignores facts, detail and misrepresents or misunderstands the DNA results. Again I'll state I am happy to consider any serious consideration of the Khoury case - he being a victim of blackmail!!! - This isn't worth any further comment. You suggest that researchers can't possibly assist in forensic or scientific endeavours to try to add certainty or greater confidence with gathered data. I certainly think researcher can help in the process. My book "Hair of the Alien" I think supports that approach. I clearly favour that approach rather
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: An Open Question To The List - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:03:13 -1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 14:51:17 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Salla >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:26:59 -0300 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:18:21 -1000 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List <snip> >Michael, >I sure wish you would stop this silly effort to make Hynek, >McDonald, and I triplets. Aside from the difference in our ages, >and the fact that I don't have a PhD and have never worked in >Academia, but spent 14 years in industry working on classified >programs and have been to 20 archives, I have for many many >years offered as conclusion number 2 at the beginning of my >lectures that "The subject of Flying Saucers is a kind of Cosmic >Watergate. This means some few people within major governments >have known at least since July, 1947, that some UFOs are alien >spacecraft." >I discuss the lies of the Secretary of the USAF about Project >Blue Book Special Report 14. I review Colonel Weaver's and >Captain McAndrew's false explanations about Roswell. I note >Bolender 's memo, show blacked out and whited out CIA and NSA >UFO documents. I point out the fallacies from the USGOV re MJ- >12. I provide specific evidence, not wide sweeping allegations >unsubstantiated by nothing more than your will to believe. Jim >talked of a foul-up until shortly before his death when he did >suggest coverup. He was great at presenting specific cases and >specific scientific evidence to destroy the false claims of >Menzel and Klass. Allan didn't provide scientific refutation of >debunker claims and did not talk about a coverup nor advanced >technology.I show pictures of nuclear rocket engines. >Read my MUFON 2005 paper "Government UFO Lies" which is in the >Symposium Proceedings available from MUFON at: >www.mufon.com >I talk about specific lies by specific people... no wild-eyed, >unsubstantiated, generalities as you do. Certainly the groups I >talk to and those who hear me on radio and TV seem to find no >trouble joining in acceptance of my views judging by the >feedback I get. >We are not triplets. We have focused on data. I have also >focused on the Cosmic Watergate. Try letting facts be absorbed >before reaching conclusions and pontificating. Reminds me of >SETI cultist Shostak. Stan, The point was that along with Allen Hynek and Jim McDonald, you did prominently lend your professional qualifications for establishing the dominant methodology for UFO research based on empirical research and documentary evidence of UFO sightings. In your statement before the US Congressional House Hearing/Symposium in 1968 you state: "The scientific approach to any problem is to sift the information to find that which is relevant to the solution of the problem at hand.... Sightings of UFOs are relatively common and have occurred all over the world. One out of every 25 adult Americans has seen a UFO. Judging from the one detailed, official, scientific investigation that has been published, one- fifth of the sightings can be labeled as Unknowns. These Unknowns are completely separate and distinct from the 20% of the 2199 sightings which were labeled "Insufficient Information" because some vital piece of data was missing. Many of the Unknowns are reported by highly trained, competent witnesses who have close-up sightings lasting for many minutes. UFOs have been observed on radar and been subsequently labeled as Unknowns. There have been simultaneous radar and visual sightings. Comparisons between Knowns and Unknowns clearly showed definite differences in color, shape, size, velocity, maneuverability, etc. This data, which most people have never seen or even heard of, is published in a document entitled "Project Blue Book Special Report, Number 14" which was completed in 1955 and has never been made readily available. The low percentage of Unknowns since that time is the direct result of deception on the part of the U.S. Air Force whose entire approach since that time has been based upon the assumption that everything can be identified.... The most effective filter between the facts as they are and the widespread distribution of those facts has been ridicule. Fewer than 1% of the sightings that have occurred have been investigated or reported. Documents containing solid data about UFOs rather than IFO's have been privately published so that most people have never seen the data that they contain. An entire mythology of false information has been widely distributed instead. Now is the time to break through the "laughter curtain." Studies done six years ago at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory showed that trips to the stars in reasonable times are feasible with the knowledge we have today using staged fission or fusion propulsion systems both of which are under development. A tremendously large body of data connected with magnetoaerodynamics even suggests we might be able to build something very much like the reported UFOs -- and also solve many of the problems of high speed flight and produce the electromagnetic effects so frequently associated with UFO sightings. "It's impossible" is said instead of "We don't know how." http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1990.htm There is no mention in your statement of a "cosmic watergate" to hide the truth orchestrated by the most senior levels of government. Essentially you were replicating the rigorous scientific method advocated by Hynek and McDonald in terms of UFO sightings and affirming the importance of documentation for UFO research. I don't see any difference between you and Hynek in terms of the methodology you used in arriving at your conclusions which was my point. Your public advocacy of a "Cosmic Watergate" appears to have come much later, and certainly long after Donald Keyhoe had publically come forward to reveal his own version of it in the Flying Saucer Conspiracy (1955) and subsequent works. In that sense, you are correct to point out the substantive difference in the conclusions reached between you and Hynek and McDonald. Nevertheless, despite these substantive differences in your conclusions, you shared the same methodology in developing your conclusions. As far as your theory of a 'Cosmic Watergate' is concerned based on your documentary research in substantiating the Roswell/Corona crash and several of the Majestic documents, I congratulate you for excellent work in these regards. You will find no criticism from me in that regard. However, I do question the appropriateness of a methodology which makes documentation the inflexible foundation for all UFO research. That is misplaced since "cosmic watergate" can only be maintained through the manipulation and removal of documentation. That is the only sensible means for enforcing security against potential whistleblowers. I think it very rational for the national security system to have set up a 'cosmic watergate' where documentation for workers can be removed or altered in order to prevent and contain unauthorized disclosures. This is precisely what whistleblowers such as Clifford Stone, Bob Lazar allege, and you are on the record for regarding such a claim as 'bunk'. Your idea that "cosmic watergate" can be maintained by systematic lying and that document tampering/removeal does not occur, is illogical. The internal logic of your position is inconsistent which shows you have not thought threw the logical consequences of your own conclusions. The cosmic watergate cannot be maintained just by systematic lying, it also requires systematic tampering and manipulation of documentation. That is the reason why we can't rigidly use documentation as the exclusive threshold for UFO research otherwise we'll dismiss all the testimony of whistleblowers such as Stone, Lazar who have much to reveal about covert projects.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Earth Station Roswell? From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:06:07 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:07:22 -0400 Subject: Earth Station Roswell? Hi list, Does anyone know anything about the planned Earth Station Roswell? See: http://www.earthstationroswell.com/site.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 22 Re: Khoury Case - Gonzalez From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:20:25 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:10:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Khoury Case - Gonzalez >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:08:37 +1000 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:52:52 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 03:36:11 +1000 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:18:54 +0100 >>>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>It seems you are not very familiar with the detail of the study. >>>I encourage you to do so. While the original IUR report is >>>readily available, my book "Hair of the Alien" give much greater >>>detail and also covers the second phase of the work. As the only resident skeptic who seems to have read Chalker's book from cover to cover, I would like to point out several facts: a) Bill seems to be one of the few (if any) examples of a skeptic becoming a believer. Well, nor a deep skeptic at the beginning neither a complete believer now, but he does confess in his book that after defending psychosocial origins for abductions in his earlier years, after the Khoury and Cahill's abductions, he has changed his views. b) Strictly speaking (and we should speak stricly) Khoury's sex encounter with two alleged alien woman was _not_ an abduction. Specially interesting is the fact that (at least at the beginning of his experience) he was in something like an OOBE, looking at himself and both women from outside. c) Strictly speaking again, we do _not_ know if those hairs (yes, they were two, one blond and the other dark) belong to those women, Khoury cannot remember how they got there. And, yes, as Bill points out, they were not there just after some kind of sex relations but should have been carefully and difficultly tied around the penis shaft (at least, if we believe Khoury's version). d) We must discard the idea that the blond woman was really a sentient being. Not even the best Zen master could avoid any pain reaction after being bitten unexpectedly in such a sensitive point like a nipple. Besides, after the bite, there should have been a lot of blood. Sorry, not alien, hybrid, or human here. I am forming my own opinion on this case, and have written Bill to get some clarifications, but when I get them, I will write a favourable review of the book, even though I may not agree with his conclusions, as you will discover.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 23 Re: Earth Station Roswell? - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 12:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:05:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Earth Station Roswell? - Groff >From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:06:07 +0100 >Subject: Earth Station Roswell? >Hi list, >Does anyone know anything about the planned Earth Station Roswell? >See: >http://www.earthstationroswell.com/site.htm >Thanks, >Philip Mantle Not much other than I was shown the blueprints back in September '04 at a Dallas Fort Worth MUFON Meeting. The gentleman's name escapes me at the moment but he was Australian and, at the time, a traveling companion of Reverend Glennys MacKay.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 23 Re: Earth Station Roswell? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:20:05 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:14:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Earth Station Roswell? - Hatch >From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:06:07 +0100 >Subject: Earth Station Roswell? >Hi list, >Does anyone know anything about the planned Earth Station >Roswell? >See: http://www.earthstationroswell.com/site.htm >Thanks, >Philip Mantle Hello Philip: Thanks for the link. Looks garish. It seems they are serious about this enterprise, and plan a grand opening in 2007 AD.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 23 Re: An Open Question To The List - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:58:54 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:17:31 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Friedman >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:03:13 -1000 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:26:59 -0300 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:18:21 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List ><snip> >>Michael, >>I sure wish you would stop this silly effort to make Hynek, >>McDonald, and I triplets. Aside from the difference in our ages, >>and the fact that I don't have a PhD and have never worked in >>Academia, but spent 14 years in industry working on classified >>programs and have been to 20 archives, I have for many many >>years offered as conclusion number 2 at the beginning of my >>lectures that "The subject of Flying Saucers is a kind of Cosmic >>Watergate. This means some few people within major governments >>have known at least since July, 1947, that some UFOs are alien >>spacecraft." >>I discuss the lies of the Secretary of the USAF about Project >>Blue Book Special Report 14. I review Colonel Weaver's and >>Captain McAndrew's false explanations about Roswell. I note >>Bolender 's memo, show blacked out and whited out CIA and NSA >>UFO documents. I point out the fallacies from the USGOV re MJ- >>12. I provide specific evidence, not wide sweeping allegations >>unsubstantiated by nothing more than your will to believe. Jim >>talked of a foul-up until shortly before his death when he did >>suggest coverup. He was great at presenting specific cases and >>specific scientific evidence to destroy the false claims of >>Menzel and Klass. Allan didn't provide scientific refutation of >>debunker claims and did not talk about a coverup nor advanced >>technology.I show pictures of nuclear rocket engines. >>Read my MUFON 2005 paper "Government UFO Lies" which is in the >>Symposium Proceedings available from MUFON at: >>www.mufon.com >>I talk about specific lies by specific people... no wild-eyed, >>unsubstantiated, generalities as you do. Certainly the groups I >>talk to and those who hear me on radio and TV seem to find no >>trouble joining in acceptance of my views judging by the >>feedback I get. > >>We are not triplets. We have focused on data. I have also >>focused on the Cosmic Watergate. Try letting facts be absorbed >>before reaching conclusions and pontificating. Reminds me of >>SETI cultist Shostak. >Stan, >The point was that along with Allen Hynek and Jim McDonald, you >did prominently lend your professional qualifications for >establishing the dominant methodology for UFO research based on >empirical research and documentary evidence of UFO sightings. >In your statement before the US Congressional House >Hearing/Symposium in 1968 you state: >"The scientific approach to any problem is to sift the >information to find that which is relevant to the solution of >the problem at hand.... Sightings of UFOs are relatively common >and have occurred all over the world. One out of every 25 adult >Americans has seen a UFO. Judging from the one detailed, >official, scientific investigation that has been published, one- >fifth of the sightings can be labeled as Unknowns. These >Unknowns are completely separate and distinct from the 20% of >the 2199 sightings which were labeled "Insufficient Information" >because some vital piece of data was missing. Many of the >Unknowns are reported by highly trained, competent witnesses who >have close-up sightings lasting for many minutes. UFOs have >been observed on radar and been subsequently labeled as >Unknowns. There have been simultaneous radar and visual >sightings. Comparisons between Knowns and Unknowns clearly >showed definite differences in color, shape, size, velocity, >maneuverability, etc. >This data, which most people have never seen or even heard of, >is published in a document entitled "Project Blue Book Special >Report, Number 14" which was completed in 1955 and has never >been made readily available. The low percentage of Unknowns >since that time is the direct result of deception on the part of >the U.S. Air Force whose entire approach since that time has >been based upon the assumption that everything can be >identified.... The most effective filter between the facts as >they are and the widespread distribution of those facts has been >ridicule. Fewer than 1% of the sightings that have occurred have >been investigated or reported. Documents containing solid data >about UFOs rather than IFO's have been privately published so >that most people have never seen the data that they contain. An >entire mythology of false information has been widely >distributed instead. Now is the time to break through the >"laughter curtain." Studies done six years ago at the Jet >Propulsion Laboratory showed that trips to the stars in >reasonable times are feasible with the knowledge we have today >using staged fission or fusion propulsion systems both of which >are under development. A tremendously large body of data >connected with magnetoaerodynamics even suggests we might be >able to build something very much like the reported UFOs -- and >also solve many of the problems of high speed flight and produce >the electromagnetic effects so frequently associated with UFO >sightings. "It's impossible" is said instead of "We don't know >how." >http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1990.htm >There is no mention in your statement of a "cosmic watergate" to >hide the truth orchestrated by the most senior levels of >government. Essentially you were replicating the rigorous >scientific method advocated by Hynek and McDonald in terms of >UFO sightings and affirming the importance of documentation for >UFO research. I don't see any difference between you and >Hynek in terms of the methodology you used in arriving at your >conclusions which was my point. Michael, in case you hadn't noticed Watergate took place during the second term of Richard Nixon. He resigned in August, 1974. Not being psychic, I naturally didn't use the term "Cosmic Watergate in 1968. Furthermore, in case you hadn't noticed, the FOIA didn't produce a lot of government UFO documents until well after 1974. That is why I referenced my 2005 paper which does take advantage by referral to the fine work by Bruce Maccabee, Brad Sparks, Peter Gersten and many others in shaking loose government UFO documents.You should have noticed that I also referred to deception by the Air Force in my 1968 paper. >Your public advocacy of a "Cosmic Watergate" appears to have >come much later, and certainly long after Donald Keyhoe had >publically come forward to reveal his own version of it in the >Flying Saucer Conspiracy (1955) and subsequent works. In that >sense, you are correct to point out the substantive difference >in the conclusions reached between you and Hynek and McDonald. >Nevertheless, despite these substantive differences in your >conclusions, you shared the same methodology in developing >your conclusions. Yes, we all three are interested in facts and data, theset don't seem to concern you at all. >As far as your theory of a 'Cosmic Watergate' is concerned based >on your documentary research in substantiating the >Roswell/Corona crash and several of the Majestic documents, I >congratulate you for excellent work in these regards. You will >find no criticism from me in that regard. However, I do question >the appropriateness of a methodology which makes documentation >the inflexible foundation for all UFO research. That is >misplaced since "cosmic watergate" can only be maintained >through the manipulation and removal of documentation. That is >the only sensible means for enforcing security against potential >whistleblowers. Sorry again, Michael, but you are totally neglecting the heavily censored UFO documents by the CIA and NSA, the lies from the FBI. These don't relate to Roswell and MJ-12.You are also neglecting classification. >I think it very rational for the national security system to >have set up a 'cosmic watergate' where documentation for workers >can be removed or altered in order to prevent and contain >unauthorized disclosures. You have been making this wild claim for some time now and have provided no evidence to substantiate it. >This is precisely what whistleblowers >such as Clifford Stone, Bob Lazar allege, and you are on the >record for regarding such a claim as 'bunk'. You have not established that these allegations are anything but bunk. I established that Lazar didn't go to MIT or Cal Tech..That MWKruvant didn't obtain any of the degrees he claimed. Kevin Randle has dealt with Stone's background enlargement . You keep making unsubstantiated claims. >Your idea that >"cosmic watergate" can be maintained by systematic lying and >that document tampering/removeal does not occur, is illogical. >The internal logic of your position is inconsistent which shows >you have not thought threw the logical consequences of your own >conclusions. The cosmic watergate cannot be maintained just by >systematic lying, it also requires systematic tampering and >manipulation of documentation. Another proclamation. with no data. You seem to have left out the word withholding on grounds of National Security. You have not shown systematic tampering or manipulation of documentation. Note the whiteout on the NSA UFO documents. >That is the reason why we can't >rigidly use documentation as the exclusive threshold for UFO >research otherwise we'll dismiss all the testimony of >whistleblowers such as Stone, Lazar who have much to reveal >about covert projects. So we should automatically accept that they can't establish their own backgrounds? The simplest explanation is that they are lying about their backgrounds and therefore one must be wary of anything they say about their so called activities. In case you hadn't noticed 2005 is 37 years after my congressional testimony. Did you compare mine with Hynek's and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 23 Re: Khoury Case - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:17:11 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:21:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Khoury Case - Clark >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:20:25 +0200 >Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:08:37 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:52:52 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 03:36:11 +1000 >>>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:18:54 +0100 >>>>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>>It seems you are not very familiar with the detail of the study. >>>>I encourage you to do so. While the original IUR report is >>>>readily available, my book "Hair of the Alien" give much greater >>>>detail and also covers the second phase of the work. >a) Bill seems to be one of the few (if any) examples of a >skeptic becoming a believer. What do you mean by "believer"? What do you mean by "skeptic"? Perhaps you're speaking in an arcane language hard for the rest of us to follow, but if you mean what I think you mean - that it is rare for somebody who rejects UFOs as anomalous phenomena to be persuaded otherwise - that is simply false. To the contrary, it's quite common. I would guess, actually, that it happens pretty much daily. In fact, it's a cliche of UFO-reporting: "I never would have believed it if...." Polls taken of opinions on UFOs have shown that in the beginning pro-UFO views mere hardly measurable. Now polls show consistently that pluralities-to-majorities are favorably disposed. Lots of changed minds, and not in your direction. But of course, I suspect, you knew this all along and were just
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 23 Relatives Of Family Approve Of Film From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:14:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:35:57 -0400 Subject: Relatives Of Family Approve Of Film Source: Kentucky New Era - Hopkinsville, Kentucky http://tinyurl.com/dqksj Monday, August 22, 2005 Relatives Of Family Approve Of Film By Michele Carlton An hour-long docudrama about the legend of an alien encounter in the Kelly community of Christian County gained approval from relatives of the family who reported witnessing a spaceship landing at their farm 50 years ago. The documentary segment, entitled "Incident at Kelly," was shown Saturday afternoon at the Hopkinsville-Christian County Conference and Convention Center as a part of the Little Green Men Festival. "I don't think they could have got any closer without being there," said Elmer Sutton Jr., after watching the film. Sutton is the son of "Lucky" Sutton, one of the original witnesses to the Kelly encounter 50 years ago. The Kelly legend started on Aug. 21, 1955, when residents reported the landing of a spaceship at the Gaither McGehee farm on Old Madisonville Road. "Lucky" Sutton and other family members said 12 little men landed in a spaceship and then they battled them at the house for hours. The docudrama was produced by Barcon Video Productions in Glendale, Calif. The film included newspaper reports, a dramatization of the battle at the farmhouse and interviews with family members and investigators. In addition to Elmer Sutton Jr., Hopkinsville-Christian County Historian William T. Turner, former Kentucky State Trooper R.N. Ferguson and family members Lonnie Lankford and Norma Malone were also interviewed for the production. "I think they did a wonderful job," said Malone, who is the great niece of Glennie Lankford, matriarch of the family living in the farmhouse at Kelly. Malone's family lived in the farmhouse after the Lankfords moved. Geraldine Stith, daughter of "Lucky" Sutton, agreed on the quality of the production. "They did a really good job," she said. Film director Barry Conrad and assistant producer Lisa McIntosh attended the festival and discussed the film after the screening. "We have received a positive response (here) and we're thankful for that," McIntosh said. "Incident at Kelly" is one-third of a documentary entitled "Monsters of the UFO." In addition to the Kelly incident, the full-length film explores first-hand accounts of the Mothman legend in Point Pleasant, W.Va., and the Flatwoods Monster in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 23 Gauche Encounters From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 06:06:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:40:50 -0400 Subject: Gauche Encounters Hi, Gauche Encounters, Martin Kottmeyer's long unpublished but much quoted essay about bad movies and the UFO mythos is now available to view on the Talking Pictures website at: http://www.talkingpix.co.uk/ArticleGaucheEncounters.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 23 Re: Earth Station Roswell? - Sheryl From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:08:24 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:08:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Earth Station Roswell? - Sheryl >From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:06:07 +0100 >Subject: Earth Station Roswell? >Does anyone know anything about the planned Earth Station Roswell? >See: >http://www.earthstationroswell.com/site.htm Hi Philip, An architect I know from Brisbane has been involved with this. He spent some months in the US earlier this year discussing ideas with the project managers. The proposal is to start construction in autumn this year and a likely finish date around mid-year 2007.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 23 Re: Earth Station Roswell? - Presseisen From: Josh Presseisen <josh.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:36:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:22:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Earth Station Roswell? - Presseisen >From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:06:07 +0100 >Subject: Earth Station Roswell? >Does anyone know anything about the planned Earth Station Roswell? >See: http://www.earthstationroswell.com/site.htm We've been in touch with Thomas Armstrong about doing a virtual tour of the facility. I'm very excited at the possibility - and I think the design of the place looks fun. Some serious researchers will definitely shy away from it, but I'm sure everyone should visit at least one time - a la Disneyland. I'm interested in finding out how it will be used. I'll keep the List informed as to any developments that I know of.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 23 Re: Khoury Case - Gonzalez From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:10:08 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:23:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Khoury Case - Gonzalez >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:17:11 -0500 >Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:20:25 +0200 >>Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>a) Bill seems to be one of the few (if any) examples of a >>skeptic becoming a believer. >What do you mean by "believer"? What do you mean by "skeptic"? >Perhaps you're speaking in an arcane language hard for the rest >of us to follow, but if you mean what I think you mean - that it >is rare for somebody who rejects UFOs as anomalous phenomena to >be persuaded otherwise - that is simply false. To the contrary, >it's quite common. I would guess, actually, that it happens >pretty much daily. In fact, it's a cliche of UFO-reporting: "I >never would have believed it if...." Sorry, I am not for hair-splitting definitions, if only because English is _not_ my native language. To me, a believer (in this context) is any _ufologist_ who think that UFOs and abductions are manifestations of non-human intelligencies. On the contrary, a skeptic would be any _ufologist_ who think they are only manifestations of our own mind, but nothing psychic, of course. As ufologist, I mean anybody who has cared to investigate the phenomena in depth, not simply a witness. >But of course, I suspect, you knew this all along and were just >hoping to slip something through. I was only trying to point out that according to Chalker, those two abductions were responsible (in part, I suppose) for his changing of mind about the origin of this phenomena. On one hand, this means that they are solid enough (in his mind) to justify the change... so they _do_ merit careful consideration. On the other hand, he has gambled his career on them, so might be he will not be entirely impartial about them. Depending how he reacts to critics, we will see.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 23 Re: Earth Station Roswell? - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:25:18 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:28:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Earth Station Roswell? - Friedman >From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:08:24 +1000 >Subject: Re: Earth Station Roswell? >>From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:06:07 +0100 >>Subject: Earth Station Roswell? >>Does anyone know anything about the planned Earth Station Roswell? >>See: >>http://www.earthstationroswell.com/site.htm >Hi Philip, >An architect I know from Brisbane has been involved with this. >He spent some months in the US earlier this year discussing ideas >with the project managers. The proposal is to start construction in >autumn this year and a likely finish date around mid-year 2007. >That's the latest he knows anyway. I have seen some of the very fancy sketches and heard some of the pitch. As I understand, from people in Roswell, these guys have put forth some very grandiose talk, taking full advantage of the fact that more than 2 million people have visited the International UFO Museum and Research Center in Roswell in the past 10 years. The Museum has purchased a big chunk of land in downtown Roswell and is raising funds for a new and enlarged facility. I am willing to bet that no Earth Station Roswell will be operating by 2007. As I hear it, they don't even own the land or have the money. Talk is cheap. They were even falsely claiming at one time that I and several others were fully behind them. We are not.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 23 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:24:23 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:33:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Gehrman >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:23:23 +0100 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:02:31 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? <snip> >>The whole subject of astrobiology is particularly volatile and >>fascinating given the contributions of people like Dr. David >>Darling (author of "The Extraterrestrial Encyclopedia - an >>alphabetical reference to all life in the Universe" (2000) and >>"Life Everywhere - The Maverick Science of Astrobiology" (2001)) >>and Dr. Simon Conway Morris Professor of Evolutionary >>Palaeobiology at the University of Cambridge. >>>From my book "HAIR of the ALIEN" (pg. 247): >>"... Simon Conway Morris ... in Life's Solution: Inevitable >>Humans in a Lonely Universe" (using) our best evidence for life, >>our own on planet Earth, (argues) against the prevailing >>scientific evolutionary paradigm, he states that because of the >>ubiquity of evolutionary convergence, not only does life have an >>extraordinary propensity for navigating multiple pathways to >>precise biological solutions, but that it repeatedly reprises >>the same evolutionary solution, mediated powerfully by "the >>weirdest molecule in the Universe" - DNA. In short, Morris >>contends that on suitable planets out there the genetic tape of >>life will play out into more "inevitable humans." But, contends >>Morris, the rarity of Earth-like planets means that we are most >>likely living in a lonely universe. Others argue, however, that >>life is everywhere, driven by a "life principle" that favors the >>spread of life through the universe. >>To put it simply, the idea of humanoid-like aliens out there may >>not be as unlikely as you so confidently argue." <snip> >As my collegue John Rimmer also suggests you are clearly >misreading Morris's view that xenoids would be upright walkers >looking something vaguely like human beings as meaning that they >would be in fact humans I disagree with Peter. Morris is insisting that while convergent evolution on other planets may not produce humans, evolution there will create life- forms and because of convergence, some will be humanoid (human-like) and probably intelligent. But the conditions must be conducive to life in the first place. He thinks this is rare, therefore, the universe is a lonely place. >Morris's views are a minority, Not necessarily so. His views on extraterrestrial life may not be to the liking of the scientific establishment, but convergent evolution is a fact. Do you doubt this evolutionary mechanism? If so, try this link: http://www.thegreatstory.org/convergence.html "... at another level, the level that matters to me and surely to many others, the central issue is whether there would be "trees" reaching into the sky and plump "fruits" beckoning mobile creatures to swallow them and thus carry their progeny on a journey. What matters is whether there would be swimming and flying and running and slithering expressions of life, and even whether there would be a form who, like us, would come to know and celebrate the 13 billion year story of the universe." >and his beliefs that ET life >would be both rare and humanoid are driven as much by his >conservative Christianity as by science. Could you cite a source for this statement? >Conservative Christians >tend to have problems with ET life which other religions don't >because of the doctrine of the Incarnation, and of human's being >made in God's image. Jesus as a Klingon or Vulcan might be >acceptable, but a silicon shelled turtle swimming in seas of >bromine is just beyond the pale. What does this have to do with convergent evolution? >Morris' idea of convergent evolution falls at first hurdle >because it predicts lots of bipedal mammals here on earth, which >we don't find. There is one unrecognized bipedal creature from this earth and that's the bipedal creature being dissected in the Alien Autopsy. Until there's a better explanation, that creature should be thought of as an evolved monetreme. The mechanism responsible for her humanoid appearance is convergent evolution. >The views on evolution expressed by many astronomers are largely >old fashioned, and based on simplistic notions of progress _up >from the ape_. Modern views see evoltion as a bush not a ladder >and most defiantly with no preferred direction. And I suppose you can cite a source for this information. This scientific argument is really about whether there is purpose in the universe or whether it is all random chance. Convergent evolution gives scientists a hint that randomness is at least limited to a few possibilities for every niche >I note this anti-Darwinian, trend, which seeks to try and >alienate (pun intended) humankind from its biosphere, runs like >a thread through ufology. Please give examples. But again the argument is about random chance as opposed to purposeful action, not Darwin There are only so many ways life can react to chance variation, so successful strategies are repeated. This process creates convergence. All life is evolved, animated molecular machines, and there was never a machine created without a purpose. >Its dissent from the mainstream is >always in a reactionary direction, towards the comforting >beliefs of yesterday. This is nonsense! >Human beings (even if ET and a slightly >different shape) are the centre of everything and the _purpose_ >of evolution, rather than the accidental product of the >evolutionary process on one planet. Humans are not the purpose of evolution. Evolution is a way to assure that life continues, even though environmental calamities occur. Life is a continuation of matter (mother), and will arise in the universe whenever and wherever conditions are advantageous. It took less than five hundred million years for life to take hold on our earth, which was not an hospitable environment. This early life, after many near-death experiences,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 23 Re: Khoury Case - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:41:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:14:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Khoury Case - Clark >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:10:08 +0200 >Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:17:11 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:20:25 +0200 >>>Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>Perhaps you're speaking in an arcane language hard for the rest >>of us to follow, but if you mean what I think you mean - that it >>is rare for somebody who rejects UFOs as anomalous phenomena to >>be persuaded otherwise - that is simply false. To the contrary, >>it's quite common. I would guess, actually, that it happens >>pretty much daily. In fact, it's a cliche of UFO-reporting: "I >>never would have believed it if...." >Sorry, I am not for hair-splitting definitions, if only because >English is _not_ my native language. To me, a believer (in this >context) is any _ufologist_ who think that UFOs and abductions >are manifestations of non-human intelligencies. I'm sure, Luis, that your English is better than my Spanish. I meant no disrespect, and if I sounded as if I did, I apologize. I was simply trying to make a point: "Believer" is a meaningless word in this context. So is "skeptic". To start with, "believer" conflates, for example, Wendelle Stevens and Michael Salla with James McDonald and Peter Sturrock. Only a foolish or ignorant individual - or someone consciously employing the word for propagandistic purposes - would do so. "Skeptic," too, conflates Philip J. Klass and Robert Sheaffer with Marcello Truzzi and Henry Bauer. In fact, temperamentally and intellectually, Truzzi and Bauer are closer to McDonald and Sturrock than to Klass and Sheaffer, while the latter two are closer to Stevens and Salla. In any event, beyond that fundamental consideration, your definition falls short of adequacy. All it tells us is that "believers" are people you don't like. It doesn't even cover ufologists who think UFOs may be manifestations of otherworldly intelligences, while abductions may not be (I am hardly alone in that view). You're dealing in cliches and stereotypes, I'm afraid. >On the contrary, >a skeptic would be any _ufologist_ who think they are only >manifestations of our own mind, but nothing psychic, of course. >As ufologist, I mean anybody who has cared to investigate the >phenomena in depth, not simply a witness. In other words, a skeptic is a believer in conventional wisdom, while a believer is a skeptic of conventional wisdom. Considering what human history tells us about "conventional wisdom," I wouldn't bet my life savings on its cogency. I guess
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 23 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:06:17 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:17:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Reynolds >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:24:23 -0700 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:23:23 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:02:31 +1000 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? ><snip> >Humans are not the purpose of evolution. Evolution is a way to >assure that life continues, even though environmental calamities >occur. Life is a continuation of matter (mother), and will arise >in the universe whenever and wherever conditions are >advantageous. It took less than five hundred million years for >life to take hold on our earth, which was not an hospitable >environment. This early life, after many near-death experiences, >created the world we see today. Doesn't it seem purposeful to >you? Ed: I'm reading a bit of zealotry in your post from which the above comes. Does anyone know the purpose of evolution, or life, or UFOs? You might find Human Destiny by Lecomte du Nouy interesting. But even that divine book doesn't make for proof, of God, or Darwin's theory, or anything. We, and the great minds of all time, just have to say, if they are rational and honest, that we don't know.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 23 Re: Khoury Case - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:14:09 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:19:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Khoury Case - Chalker >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:10:08 +0200 >Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:17:11 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:20:25 +0200 >>>Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>>a) Bill seems to be one of the few (if any) examples of a >>>skeptic becoming a believer. >>What do you mean by "believer"? What do you mean by "skeptic"? >>Perhaps you're speaking in an arcane language hard for the rest >>of us to follow, but if you mean what I think you mean - that it >>is rare for somebody who rejects UFOs as anomalous phenomena to >>be persuaded otherwise - that is simply false. To the contrary, >>it's quite common. I would guess, actually, that it happens >>pretty much daily. In fact, it's a cliche of UFO-reporting: "I >>never would have believed it if...." >Sorry, I am not for hair-splitting definitions, if only because >English is _not_ my native language. To me, a believer (in this >context) is any _ufologist_ who think that UFOs and abductions >are manifestations of non-human intelligencies. On the contrary, >a skeptic would be any _ufologist_ who think they are only >manifestations of our own mind, but nothing psychic, of course. >As ufologist, I mean anybody who has cared to investigate the >phenomena in depth, not simply a witness. >>But of course, I suspect, you knew this all along and were just >>hoping to slip something through. >I was only trying to point out that according to Chalker, those >two abductions were responsible (in part, I suppose) for his >changing of mind about the origin of this phenomena. >On one hand, this means that they are solid enough (in his mind) >to justify the change... so they _do_ merit careful >consideration. >On the other hand, he has gambled his career on them, so might >be he will not be entirely impartial about them. Depending how >he reacts to critics, we will see. Luis, if you think that advocating taking a serious scientific look at cases like Kelly Cahill's and Peter Khoury's is gambling my career, then everyone who advocates interest in compelling cases and interest in the possibility that we are dealing with anomlous phenomena, is equally gambling their career. I am utilising these cases to support an approach - a scientific, forensic approach, mediated by things like DNA profiling etc. I hardly think that is a gamble. I think that is simply trying to improve the techniques we apply to examining such events. Impartiality? Sure I think the cases are important and worthwhile presenting. But if substantial evidence came along that proved they were entirely prosaic then then I and indeed I'm sure the witnesses would happly move on with their careers and lives. In both Kelly Cahill and Peter Khoury I have seen people who clearly want to understand what happened to them. For both at the moment the UFO model seem seems to be the best fit explanation. Like me I feel that each would happly embrace the certainty that comes with definitative answers. To date there are none. The only advantage (or disadvantage depending on one's point of view) they have is a degree of conviction that comes through their levels of personal experience with the phenomena they encountered. This is not about desperately defending a particular bias or belief. It is more about trying to gain certainty about what may have happened. The process involved in arriving at that certainty will certainly affect the way I mediate the understanding I have of the UFO mystery. In other words I let the evidence lead me to answers. I am not trying to force fit explanations. Thus you have noticed that I may change my mind about individual cases and the larger aspects of the UFO mystery based on evidence. I am not bogged down trying to defend a belief system. As for "critics", well I guess it depends on their approach. In your case the list of questions and issues you forwarded to me off list contribute to the kind of "critical" examining I am seeking of the data I am offering for examination. I fully intend to respond to them before I depart to China. I will respond on list to some of these matters because you raise them in your previous message. Because it is very late over here I'll call it a night!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 23 Re: Khoury Case - Reason From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:09:35 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:21:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Khoury Case - Reason >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:10:08 +0200 >Subject: Re: Khoury Case >To me, a believer (in this >context) is any _ufologist_ who think that UFOs and abductions >are manifestations of non-human intelligencies. On the contrary, >a skeptic would be any _ufologist_ who think they are only >manifestations of our own mind, but nothing psychic, of course. I don't want to get involved in this protracted discussion over alleged alien DNA, or whatever it is; but I do think this definition of "skeptic" is a clear abuse of language - and by that I mean any language in which the concept of "skeptic" has any meaning, not just English. What matters is whether ufologists, including those "who think [UFOs and abductions] are manifestations of our own mind", are postulating entities already known to science, or entities which are new to science. If psychological explanations of "UFOs and abductions" involve entities new to science (and from what I can see, nearly all of them do) then it really does not make sense
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 23 Canadian Midwest A Hotspot For UFO Action? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:35:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:35:40 -0400 Subject: Canadian Midwest A Hotspot For UFO Action? Source: Lloydminster Meridian Booster - Lloydminster, Alberta http://www.meridianbooster.com/story.php?id=3D179606 Monday August 22, 2005 Canadian Midwest A Hotspot For UFO Action? by Leo Pare Midwest residents are keeping their eyes on the skies this summer, with dozens of strange reports beaming into the local UFO research office. In November of 2004, paranormal believer Barb Campbell established Saskatchewan's first UFO research centre in her hometown of Maidstone, but she may have got more than she bargained for in her not-for-profit venture. Animal mutilations, strange lights, crop impressions and fireballs are among the 29 X-File-worthy reports the Northwest Saskatchewan UFO Research Centre has fielded since January of this year, and in 2004 the NWSURC reported more than 50 unusual incidents and sightings. All of this year's sightings have occurred in or around the communities of Gurnsey, Lanigan, Lloydminster, Maidstone, Melfort, Midale, Moose Jaw, North Battleford, Paradise Hill, St. Walburg, Prince Albert, Qu'Appelle, Regina, Saskatoon and Tisdale, but Campbell has also received reports from as far away as Idaho. "The beginning of the year seemed slow, but sightings have picked up this summer," said Campbell. "All my reports are pretty incredible - and I'm very interested in some of these cow mutilation cases." This past June, Paradise Hill rancher Ray Riguidel discovered one of his cows mutilated in surgical fashion on a pasture near his farm, and although he isn't prepared to point the finger at aliens, Riguidel swears whatever butchered the animal could not have been human. "When you see a cow go down, you go look, but I didn't have to look twice," said Riguidel in a previous interview with the Booster. "There was a guy with me, and we both popped our eyes. "I've heard about (cow mutilations) before, but it never really sunk in. But it's sunk in now. It's real." Fernand Belzil, a rancher from St. Paul, has been investigating and compiling information on cow mutilations for several years. Belzil visited Riguidel's farm after the mutilation discovery, where he took samples from the animal to be tested in a U.S. laboratory and he is still awaiting the results of those tests. An unnamed Maidstone-area witness recently spotted an object matching the description of another object suspected to be responsible for crop circles discovered in southern Saskatchewan earlier this year. And in Maidstone, an individual reported seeing an object resembling a satellite suddenly stop in the sky, turn on a very bright light for a few seconds, then switched it off again before continuing north. There have been several sightings in the Maidstone area since 1963 where witnesses reported seeing cylindrical, spherical, rainbow and cigar-shaped objects in the sky. When receiving a report, Campbell typically interviews the witness, visits the sight, and photographs any possible evidence of unusual activity, and every effort is made to eliminate the possibility of a hoax or false report. Witnessing several unusual sightings herself, Campbell said she has been a believer in the unknown for as long as she can remember, but many of the reports she receives each month continue to astound her. "I've always believed there is life out there beyond our world. As a kid, I saw things flying around, but I never thought of UFOs," she said. "I've always kept an open mind, but the more I learn about all this, it still blows my mind." Campbell will be speaking at the first-ever What The Frick Is Going On In Saskatchewan? conference in Saskatoon on Oct. 22. Joining her will be Belzil to discuss cattle mutilations, Beata Van Berkom will give a presentation on crop circles, and a man who calls himself Earthwalker will discuss and hear accounts of alien abduction. Campbell encourages anyone who has witnessed any unusual activity, recent or past, to contact her by phone at (306)893- 4009, or e-mail her at www.nwsurc.nul "I don't care how long ago it was. It's all very important," she said. "I'm looking for similarities and patterns. I'm not just collecting. I'm hoping that one day we'll know... What are these
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 23 What Were The Lights In The Sky? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:45:50 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:45:50 -0400 Subject: What Were The Lights In The Sky? Source: The Gloucestershire Echo - Cheltenham, UK http://tinyurl.com/dlqfv Tuesday, August 23, 2005 What Were The Lights In The Sky? Mysterious orange lights have been spotted above the skies of Cheltenham. Gloucestershire police are investigating the sightings and treating the incident as suspicious. Physics teacher Kevin Downes was running with his wife Alexandra in Winchester Way, Warden Hill, when they saw the lights at 10.30pm on Sunday. Kevin, 52, who used to teach at Dean Close School, said: "At first I thought they were fireworks. "Being a physicist I was fascinated what these orange lights were. There were about 12 of them and they kept moving across the horizon. "I then saw somebody pulling into their drive and approached him to look up at the sky, just in case we were seeing things. "He saw the lights too and got out the binoculars he uses for watching the horse racing. "The lights, which were shaped like the plough star constellation, stopped and hovered above us." He said they then dispersed and faded out. Ian Statham, managing director of Gloucestershire Airport in Staverton, said: "Lights on aircraft are red, white or green - not orange." Ursula Hughes saw the lights from Malvern Road, where she was hosting a dinner party with her husband Malcolm. Mrs Hughes, 67, said: "I looked out and saw these beautiful orange lights moving from the east. They flew in formation and look like little lanterns." Rod Salisbury, secretary of Cotswold Astronomical Society, said: "The only things that can be seen moving are meteors and they're not orange and they only move for a very short period before they burn up. "Satellites move but appear white, reflecting the light from the sun. They wouldn't appear for as long as 20 minutes."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 23 Re: Khoury Case - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:15:12 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:25:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Khoury Case - Hall >From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:09:35 +0100 >Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:10:08 +0200 >>Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>To me, a believer (in this >>context) is any _ufologist_ who think that UFOs and abductions >>are manifestations of non-human intelligencies. On the contrary, >>a skeptic would be any _ufologist_ who think they are only >>manifestations of our own mind, but nothing psychic, of course. >I don't want to get involved in this protracted discussion over >alleged alien DNA, or whatever it is; but I do think this >definition of "skeptic" is a clear abuse of language - and by >that I mean any language in which the concept of "skeptic" has >any meaning, not just English. >What matters is whether ufologists, including those "who think >[UFOs and abductions] are manifestations of our own mind", are >postulating entities already known to science, or entities which >are new to science. If psychological explanations of "UFOs and >abductions" involve entities new to science (and from what I can >see, nearly all of them do) then it really does not make sense >to regard the people who espouse such explanations as >"skeptics". >Cathy A good primer on UFO-related definitions and semantics for self- styled `skeptics' in the sense that Gonzalez uses the word can be found in my article "Conceptualizing UFOs". See:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 24 Re: Khoury Case - Gonzalez From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:56:17 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:13:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Khoury Case - Gonzalez >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:41:30 -0500 >Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:10:08 +0200 >>Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:17:11 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:20:25 +0200 >>>>Subject: Re: Khoury Case <snip> >To start with, "believer" conflates, for example, Wendelle >Stevens and Michael Salla with James McDonald and Peter >Sturrock. Only a foolish or ignorant individual - or someone >consciously employing the word for propagandistic purposes - >would do so. >"Skeptic," too, conflates Philip J. Klass and Robert Sheaffer >with Marcello Truzzi and Henry Bauer. I do understand your problem. I have always considered myself an ufologist, and this 'label' got me very strange bed-fellows in the mind of the non-initiated. Nevertheless, for the reasons of my comparison, I believe it can be a useful distinction. >In any event, beyond that fundamental consideration, your >definition falls short of adequacy. All it tells us is that >"believers" are people you don't like. It doesn't even cover >ufologists who think UFOs may be manifestations of otherworldly >intelligences, while abductions may not be (I am hardly alone in >that view). You're dealing in cliches and stereotypes, I'm >afraid. Well, precisely, I am one of those ufologists who considers that many abductions (those of the "bed visitors" kind) are a phenomenon completely different from UFOs, even if neither one nor the other are manifestations of otherworldly intelligences, IMHO. You are wrong. I _do_ like sincere 'believers' (those who have reached such conclusion after a careful scrutiny of all the data available). After all, so am I, even if my conclusion is the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 24 Re: Khoury Case - Gonzalez From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:05:55 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:15:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Khoury Case - Gonzalez >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:14:09 +1000 >Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:10:08 +0200 >>Subject: Re: Khoury Case <snip> >>On the other hand, he has gambled his career on them, so might >>be he will not be entirely impartial about them. Depending how >>he reacts to critics, we will see. >Luis, if you think that advocating taking a serious scientific >look at cases like Kelly Cahill's and Peter Khoury's is gambling >my career, then everyone who advocates interest in compelling >cases and interest in the possibility that we are dealing with >anomlous phenomena, is equally gambling their career. I am >utilising these cases to support an approach - a scientific, >forensic approach, mediated by things like DNA profiling etc. I >hardly think that is a gamble. I think that is simply trying to >improve the techniques we apply to examining such events. Let's see. Advocating taking a serious scientific look at UFO and abduction cases is something ufologists have done from the very beginning. I fully agree on this. But to me, you have gone a step beyond, insisting that after applying some scientific tools to your case, the alien/extraterrestrial explanation is the only one convincing. That is your gamble. >Impartiality? Sure I think the cases are important and >worthwhile presenting. But if substantial evidence came along >that proved they were entirely prosaic then then I and indeed >I'm sure the witnesses would happly move on with their careers >and lives. In both Kelly Cahill and Peter Khoury I have seen >people who clearly want to understand what happened to them. For >both at the moment the UFO model seem seems to be the best fit >explanation. Like me I feel that each would happly embrace the >certainty that comes with definitative answers. To date there >are none. The only advantage (or disadvantage depending on one's >point of view) they have is a degree of conviction that comes >through their levels of personal experience with the phenomena >they encountered. This is not about desperately defending a >particular bias or belief. It is more about trying to gain >certainty about what may have happened. The process involved in >arriving at that certainty will certainly affect the way I >mediate the understanding I have of the UFO mystery. In other >words I let the evidence lead me to answers. I am not trying to >force fit explanations. Thus you have noticed that I may change >my mind about individual cases and the larger aspects of the UFO >mystery based on evidence. I am not bogged down trying to defend >a belief system. Good. I think the same about myself, if only others will agree! >As for "critics", well I guess it depends on their approach. In >your case the list of questions and issues you forwarded to me >off list contribute to the kind of "critical" examining I am >seeking of the data I am offering for examination. I fully >intend to respond to them before I depart to China. I will >respond on list to some of these matters because you raise them >in your previous message. Because it is very late over here I'll >call it a night!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 24 Re: Khoury Case - Gonzalez From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:16:50 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:17:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Khoury Case - Gonzalez >From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:09:35 +0100 >Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:10:08 +0200 >>Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>To me, a believer (in this >>context) is any _ufologist_ who think that UFOs and abductions >>are manifestations of non-human intelligencies. On the contrary, >>a skeptic would be any _ufologist_ who think they are only >>manifestations of our own mind, but nothing psychic, of course. >I don't want to get involved in this protracted discussion over >alleged alien DNA, or whatever it is; but I do think this >definition of "skeptic" is a clear abuse of language - and by >that I mean any language in which the concept of "skeptic" has >any meaning, not just English. Well, if you have a better term, let me know it. >What matters is whether ufologists, including those "who think >[UFOs and abductions] are manifestations of our own mind", are >postulating entities already known to science, or entities which >are new to science. If psychological explanations of "UFOs and >abductions" involve entities new to science (and from what I can >see, nearly all of them do) then it really does not make sense >to regard the people who espouse such explanations as >"skeptics". Psychological explanations of UFOs and abductions _do_ involve ideas new to science, if only because Psychology is a young science (and some still discuss if it is really a science). But we are "skeptics" in the sense that (as in my limited usage of the word) we do not think you have to appeal to the existence of non-human intelligences to finally explain them. Science have not all the answers yet, but when it got them, they would be not so much surprising. For instance, and I do not want to start a new debate, I am convinced that Randles/Estes/Come hypothesis is a valid one for explanation of a lot of the so-called abduction
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 24 Paranormal Classification System From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:23:39 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:21:16 -0400 Subject: Paranormal Classification System ----- From: jnthnwilde <jnthnwilde.nul> To: forteana.nul Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:23:25 -0000 Subject: [forteana] paranormal classification system (OPINIONS REQUESTED) Due to the large and largely disorganized nature of my paranormal reports archives, I have come up with a new form of classification system for myself. Its loosely based on the Vallee Classification system for paranormal phenomena. I would be delighted to hear reader input on the merits & flaws of the following categories. some of you might think that the various categories seem somewhat vague in their labeling. This was done for the sake of avoiding classification bias. Due to the nature of paranormal phenomena, and their unusual and mostly unfathomable connections, I think it unwise to make the categories in which to fit such phenomena too narrow. It could cause misidentification. Here it is: Pyramided Classification System: 1.Anomalies involving transient sound, heat & light effects. 2.Anomalies involving formed physical & spiritual manifestations. Subsection1: Witness interaction with manifestation. Subsection2: Witness physically or mentally affected by manifestation. 3.Anomalies involving lasting physical effects. 4.Anomalies involving aerial craft. Sub1: witness interaction with craft and occupants. Sub2: witness physically/mentally affected by craft. Classification is categorically progressive. Thus, a topic placed under category 4 may fit only under that category or it may maintain traits from all or some previous categories. This eliminates the need for placing a particular event into multiple categories independently.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 24 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:49:21 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:24:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Gehrman >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:06:17 -0500 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:24:23 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>Humans are not the purpose of evolution. Evolution is a way to >>assure that life continues, even though environmental calamities >>occur. Life is a continuation of matter (mother), and will arise >>in the universe whenever and wherever conditions are >>advantageous. It took less than five hundred million years for >>life to take hold on our earth, which was not an hospitable >>environment. This early life, after many near-death experiences, >>created the world we see today. Doesn't it seem purposeful to >>you? >Ed: >I'm reading a bit of zealotry in your post from which the above >comes. Rich, "Zealotry"? In what sense? I'm just stating the facts. I'm not even Jewish! Where do you disagree, specifically, with what I posted? What part in "above" do you disagree with? >Does anyone know the purpose of evolution, or life, or UFOs? I don't and never wrote that I did. The question that I was asking was simple: is life purposeful or is it just a meaningless set of random events. I think it's clear which side of this argument I'm on. As for UFO, I argue that they are crafts from a civilization that evolved here, millions of year ago. They are subject to the same environmental constraints we are. Sometimes these crafts are driven by Monotremes. I only have one example: the alien autopsy creature footage and the footage of the debris from the craft that crashed. That should suffice., but it doesn't, a continuing mystery to me. Why do you refuse to believe that I might be correct? >You might find Human Destiny by Lecomte du Nouy interesting. Sure I might. Did you? Perhaps you might explain to us how you think ol' Lecomte might add to this discussion. >But even that divine book doesn't make for proof, of God, or >Darwin's theory, or anything. We, and the great minds of all >time, just have to say, if they are rational and honest, that we >don't know. We try to know, don't we? Isn't that what science is all about? Isn't this discussion an attempt at that? >We don't know anything for sure... that's the only thing we seem >to know... seem being the operative word. I'll tell you one thing you can know for sure: the alien autopsy is real footage of a real creature who crashed in a dry lake bed about 10 miles SW of Socorro on May 31st, 1947. Until
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 24 Re: Earth Station Roswell? - Harrison From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:21:39 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:28:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Earth Station Roswell? - Harrison >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:25:18 -0300 >Subject: Re: Earth Station Roswell? >>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:08:24 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Earth Station Roswell? >>>From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:06:07 +0100 >>>Subject: Earth Station Roswell? >>>Does anyone know anything about the planned Earth Station Roswell? >>>See: >>>http://www.earthstationroswell.com/site.htm >>An architect I know from Brisbane has been involved with this. >>He spent some months in the US earlier this year discussing ideas >>with the project managers. The proposal is to start construction in >>autumn this year and a likely finish date around mid-year 2007. >>That's the latest he knows anyway. >I have seen some of the very fancy sketches and heard some of >the pitch. As I understand, from people in Roswell, these guys >have put forth some very grandiose talk, taking full advantage >of the fact that more than 2 million people have visited the >International UFO Museum and Research Center in Roswell in the >past 10 years. The Museum has purchased a big chunk of land in >downtown Roswell and is raising funds for a new and enlarged >facility. >I am willing to bet that no Earth Station Roswell will be >operating by 2007. As I hear it, they don't even own the land or >have the money. Talk is cheap. They were even falsely claiming at >one time that I and several others were fully behind them. We >are not. Hi Stanton & List I love the concept its a great tourist attraction, but if Roswell City Council allow this to go ahead it will take business away from the city center - the hub of nearly all UFO memorabilia and restaurant attractions. I know I've been there. I think a "great deal" more thought and consideration must be given to present business in the town center as this project could send a lot of them to the wall. This is just my opinion
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 24 Unusual Soybean & Cattle Corn Formations In Ontario From: Paul Anderson - CCCRN News <cccrnnews.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:03:36 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:31:22 -0400 Subject: Unusual Soybean & Cattle Corn Formations In Ontario CCCRN NEWS E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network August 23, 2005 http://www.cccrn.ca _____________________________ Unusual Soybean And Cattle Corn Formations In Ontario Two new interesting 'formations' just reported to CCCRN Ontario in the last few days..... Dresden, Ontario - August 20 Found by farmer. Circular patch, approximately 5.2 metres (17 feet) diameter, in soybean. Plants appeared "dead", not flattened or swirled. "V-shape" inside circle of unaffected plants. All other plants in 100-acre field appeared normal. Farmer theorized it may be "spot-bombing" re Monsato. Similar to the soybean circle found last year at Staples, Ontario (again possible lightning damage). Lynden, Ontario - August 15 Found by CCCRN Ontario representative Joanna Emery. Irregular shape (RDA), approximately 7.6-9 metres (25-30 feet across), in cattle corn. While not geometric in shape as most previous formations in cattle corn here in Canada and the US, some of the same unusual features have again been seen - highly ruptured nodes, with multiple large cavities on some stalks (none seen in stalks outside of formation), some stalks "sheared off" or snapped at second node, some stalks still standing and unaffected, some stalks flattened at ground, some stalks pulled up by the roots and some areas of layering. There is also a 9- metre (30-foot) "path" of flattened stalks ending in a small egg-shaped bare patch of soil about 3x4.5 metres (10x15 feet) in size, making the formation a sort of "quasi- dumbbell" shape. Both "formations" are being listed in the Other Circular Phenomena in Canada Archive on the CCCRN web site, as they are not "standard" crop formations given their unusual physical characteristics. Additional information and photos will be posted soon. There is also a third possible report, which having not been confirmed on the ground yet, is still being listed as a rumour. A "round, 13-segmented formation" was found in a satellite image of a farming area in Richmond, British Columbia on August 19 (south of Vancouver and west of the Abbotsford- Agassiz-Mission "hot spot" the last few years), using Google Earth. A subsequent search using the similar GlobeXplorer program found the same feature in the same (enclosed) location, although that image was dated June 2, 2004, making it more likely this is some sort of permanent farming or irrigation-related feature. Two of the Google Earth and GlobeXplorer images can be seen here: http://www.cccrn.ca/richmond05a.jpg http://www.cccrn.ca/richmond05b.jpg On-site confirmation of whatever this feature actually is to come soon. Regardless, this process shows the value in using satellite imagery, either to obtain aerial images of known formations, or even the possible discovery of new ones. Meanwhile, we still wait for "normal" crop circle reports for this year... _____________________________ CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent free to your e-mail
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 24 Former Minister Of Defence To Address Toronto UFO From: Victor Viggiani - ZlandCommunications <zland.nul> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:07:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:58:49 -0400 Subject: Former Minister Of Defence To Address Toronto UFO Toronto - Ontario, Canada MUFON Central Canada and ZlandCommunications are pleased to announce Mr. Paul Hellyer's participation in Exopolitics Toronto Symposium on UFO Disclosure and Planetary Directions at the University of Toronto's Convocation Hall Sunday September 25th. The Symposium is open to the public. Paul Hellyer has had a long and distinguished career with particular emphasis on national defense. He held a number of positions culminating in his appointment as Minister of Defense under prime Minister Lester Pearson. He is a long standing opponent of the weaponization of space and is a supporter of the Space Preservation Treaty. Mr. Hellyer will address the Symposium's theme: Why Information Concerning Extraterrestrial-Related Phenomena And Government Involvement With These Issues Is Still Being Withheld From The Public By Specific Western Nations. Some call this the UFO Cover-up. Others call it a truth embargo. In either case Mr. Hellyer's well documented and comprehensive perspectives on such topics as Free Trade, Globalization, the inequitable distribution of wealth, the failure of banking systems and the weaponization of space will affix a compelling urgency to the far-reaching global implications of UFO/ET disclosure. Mr. Hellyer possesses a unique vantage point from which to share his insights and knowledge with journalists, academics and citizens on matters relating to the UFO/ET disclosure question. By participating in the Toronto Exopolitics Symposium Mr. Hellyer joins a growing list of important government figures around the world willing to speak directly to this most controversial and profound issue. Canada can play a major role in the truth process, and Mr. Hellyer's involvement will increase the impact of the Symposium. Journalists and other media representatives who wish to learn more about Paul Hellyer s participation are invited to contact the symposium's Media Director, Victor Viggiani, for pre-conference press interviews, press passes or questions. Ticket Orders - Available On Line Order on-line by visiting the symposium s web site: http://www.exopoliticstoronto.com/tickets.html or by going directly to University of Toronto TIX web site at: http://www.uofttix.ca/view.php?id=70 This venture is a co-production of MUFON CENTRAL CANADA and ZlandCommunications. The text of this release may be distributed freely. Victor Viggiani
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 24 UFO 'Expert' Speculates About Strange Lights From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:04:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:04:40 -0400 Subject: UFO 'Expert' Speculates About Strange Lights Source: The Independent - Gallup, New mexica http://www.gallupindependent.com/2005/august/082305ufo.html Tuesday August 23, 2005 UFO 'Expert' Speculates About Strange Lights [image] By Bill Donovan Staff Writer GALLUP =97 Local UFO "expert" Robert Allen got noticeably excited when he got his first look at photos of the unexplained phenomenon that appeared over these skies last week. "I'm getting goosebumps," he said, adding that these may be the clearest photos taken of a UFO in decades. The photos were taken by Lyle Jeff, a 17-year-old student who lives in Standing Rock, a small Navajo community about 35 miles north of Gallup. The photos show something but just what that something is will probably be talked about in UFO circles for years if not decades. To Allen, they appear to be positive proof that a UFO wandered through these skies last week and may have crashed into a field near Standing Rock. The photos show colors outlined in the night sky, bright yellows, and oranges and reds. They don't show a spaceship but according to Allen, they show the ship's erratic pattern through the skies and one, which looks like a giant V in glowing colors, shows the underside of the ship as it went overhead. Allen said he observed the strange sight himself one night last week, seeing it from his home in Williams Acres. The object appeared in the night sky going across his line of vision for more than 90 seconds. "That's extremely rare for something to be on view that long," he said. Most sightings are for only a few seconds. In this case, he watched as the object went west to east, disappearing at times and blinking its lights at other times. Could it possibly be a helicopter? "No," said Allen, pointing out that the object didn't make any noise when it went overhead. Also the light patterns were nothing like a helicopter. Could it possibly be a weather balloon? "No," said Allen. What kind of weather balloon, he said, goes in erratic patterns like the object he and apparently dozens of other people in this area saw last week. That's another sign that this sighting may go down as one of the most significant sightings in recent UFO history the number of people who sighted it and were amazed by what they saw. Jeff said he and others in his community had observed the object in the sky for five straight nights. On Friday, he got a camera and took several shots of what he saw. His mother, Stephanie, called The Independent on Monday, and said that other families were saying that the object appeared to have gone beyond a hill north of Standing Rock and landed. To Allen, however, the only explanation of what he saw in the photos was a spaceship that was having some problems and had to make a forced landing. On Monday, he called Lyle Jeff and quizzed him on what he saw and went and got directions to his house so he could make a detailed investigation of the area to see if something did in fact land in the fields near the Navajo community. There have been other landings of alien spacecraft reported in UFO circles over the year and he said he knew what to look for scorched earth in the form of a circle, showing where the spacecraft landed and then took off. And signs of radiation that had been emitted from the spacecraft as it landed. "Maybe it never did take off," he said. "Maybe it's possible that the craft is still there on the ground." No matter what people saw and think they saw, Allen said the sightings deserved to be thoroughly investigated to try to determine its origins, not only for the sake of the people who looked up into the night sky last week and saw something strange, but because of the millions of people who will be hearing of this over the next week. A Los Angeles radio station has already talked to Allen after hearing of these reports, and he said he will be interviewed on the station for an hour today on what was seen and how it may be greeted by UFO experts and fans in coming weeks, months and years. But Allen said that if it was observed over several nights last
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 24 Re: Earth Station Roswell? - Frola From: Robert Frola <ufologist.nul> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:10:52 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:06:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Earth Station Roswell? - Frola >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:25:18 -0300 >Subject: Re: Earth Station Roswell? >>From: Sheryl Gottschall <gottscha.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:08:24 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Earth Station Roswell? >>>From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:06:07 +0100 >>>Subject: Earth Station Roswell? >>>Does anyone know anything about the planned Earth Station Roswell? >>>See: >>>http://www.earthstationroswell.com/site.htm >>Hi Philip, >>An architect I know from Brisbane has been involved with this. >>He spent some months in the US earlier this year discussing ideas >>with the project managers. The proposal is to start construction in >>autumn this year and a likely finish date around mid-year 2007. >>That's the latest he knows anyway. >I have seen some of the very fancy sketches and heard some of >the pitch. As I understand, from people in Roswell, these guys >have put forth some very grandiose talk, taking full advantage >of the fact that more than 2 million people have visited the >International UFO Museum and Research Center in Roswell in the >past 10 years. The Museum has purchased a big chunk of land in >downtown Roswell and is raising funds for a new and enlarged >facility. >I am willing to bet that no Earth Station Roswell will be >operating by 2007. As I hear it, they don't even own the land or >have the money. Talk is cheap. They were even falsely claiming at >one time that I and several others were fully behind them. We >are not. Don't you love politics! The land in question is opposite MacDonalds.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 24 Demons & Aliens From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:57:36 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:12:01 -0400 Subject: Demons & Aliens Hello List, T Peter Park and Brenda Denzler draw attention to an area where official 'science' and 'religion' intertwine, and which if examined has a gaping hole in the center to which science and religion both turn a blind eye - that is, when they're not obsessed with it. That lacuna is the area of ghosts, demons & spirits, and might include grays, other ETs and abductions etc. If we check real history we find that there've been intervals (Dark Ages?) where both 'scientists' and 'theologians' have become obsessed with "spirits" and "aliens" - the implication being that these were autonomous and from "outside" of both science and religion. So those seeking more power or gold (how things change!) tried alchemy, pacts with devils, Black Magic etc. I.e. in UK early members of the Royal Society (of 'scientists') notably Boyle, Glanville Browne etc., are on record as believing in ghosts, devils, spirits, witches _and_ in a monotheist Deity. At the same time religionists also claimed rights in that "terrra incognito". In 1884 theologian the Rev. Lee wrote "the supernatural interwoven by religious rites... into public life has invariably exercised a vast and beneficial influence on both." and further stressed the need for "beliefs of a future state, the existence of bright and glorious angels on the one hand, of dark and fallen spirits on the other" to preserve 'an ordered society' (think he meant - 'to keep the poor in their place'). And, though I hesitate to shock you T Peter, the indications are that we're in a Dark Age today, with politicians, pervy Bishops and security agencies and rocket scientists alike secretly obsessing with Black Magic and but suppressing public discussion of Aliens or ET - you could check "CIA" in Perceptions Subindex and follow external links. There exists a huge body of evidence of anomalous phenomena of all kinds, check 'poltergeists' and 'UFOs' for example, which 'science' and 'theology' pretend to ignore - officially. So they publicly declare the whole area is anathema to both science and religion - perhaps because it exposes their deep ignorance of reality. Ironic if that's where the "truth" is to be found! Cheers Ray D
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 24 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:01:07 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:13:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Reynolds >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:49:21 -0700 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:06:17 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? <snip> >I'll tell you one thing you can know for sure: the alien autopsy >is real footage of a real creature who crashed in a dry lake bed >about 10 miles SW of Socorro on May 31st, 1947. Until >'ufologists' figure that out, you and them will continue to not >"know anything for sure...". Ed: It's your certitude that makes me envious. You don't doubt certain things.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 24 Re: Earth Station Roswell? - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:02:07 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:16:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Earth Station Roswell? - Kaeser >From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:21:39 +1000 >Subject: Re: Earth Station Roswell? >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:25:18 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Earth Station Roswell? <snip> >>I have seen some of the very fancy sketches and heard some of >>the pitch. As I understand, from people in Roswell, these guys >>have put forth some very grandiose talk, taking full advantage >>of the fact that more than 2 million people have visited the >>International UFO Museum and Research Center in Roswell in the >>past 10 years. The Museum has purchased a big chunk of land in >>downtown Roswell and is raising funds for a new and enlarged >>facility. >>I am willing to bet that no Earth Station Roswell will be >>operating by 2007. As I hear it, they don't even own the land or >>have the money. Talk is cheap. They were even falsely claiming at >>one time that I and several others were fully behind them. We >>are not. >I love the concept its a great tourist attraction, but if >Roswell City Council allow this to go ahead it will take >business away from the city center - the hub of nearly all UFO >memorabilia and restaurant attractions. >I know I've been there. >I think a "great deal" more thought and consideration must be >given to present business in the town center as this project >could send a lot of them to the wall. I was in Roswell during the 50th Anniversary Event (1997) and it was a real circus, with a good time had by all. It was chance to network, meet researchers and for many of us a chance to see one of the places we've all read and heard so much about. But the atmosphere, while good for the economy of Roswell - which views this as a primary means of boosting the economy - it does little to aid in the search for the truth and could indeed lend support to the eternal skeptics. But the issue of who controls the UFO economy in Roswell has
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 24 Remember The 'Flying Men' Of 1948? From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:18:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:26:09 -0400 Subject: Remember The 'Flying Men' Of 1948? Here's an article that reminds me of the flying men sighted over Washington State, in January and April of 1948. Long ago dug out the original source material and wrote about them as "winged weirdies," as I recall. - Loren ----- Source: Ananova News http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1512284.html Wednesday, August 24, 2005 Superman Spotted In Serbia Serbian authorities are investigating reports of a real-life Superman after people claimed to have seen a cloaked figure flying over their houses. Hundreds of residents in Ljubovija described seeing a cloaked person flying above buildings "as if he had an invisible engine on his back" and changing directions while in mid-air, local daily Blic reported. One local said: "It was like something out of Superman or Batman. No one has any rational explanation for what we all
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 25 Re: Khoury Case - Reason From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:35:44 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:54:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Khoury Case - Reason >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 23:16:50 +0200 >Subject: Re: Khoury Case >Well, if you have a better term, let me know it. I guess "believers in psychological explanations" or some such would probably do. But I really think the responsibility to come up with a suitable term rests with you, not with me. I certainly don't think you're entitled to hijack or abuse a term which already has a clear meaning. >Psychological explanations of UFOs and abductions _do_ involve >ideas new to science, if only because Psychology is a young >science (and some still discuss if it is really a science). But >we are "skeptics" in the sense that (as in my limited usage of >the word) we do not think you have to appeal to the existence of >non-human intelligences to finally explain them. Hang on a minute - on what basis do you assume that explanations involving novel psychological processes are more "skeptical" than explanations involvong non-human intelligences? Would a believer in non-human intelligences therefore be entitled to describe themselves as "more skeptical" because they did not have to appeal to novel psychological processes? Come on Luis, this is ridiculous. >Science have >not all the answers yet, but when it got them, they would be not >so much surprising. Not surprising to whom? I for one would be extremely surprised if some of the psychological theories I've encountered - those which assume the brain operates as a kind of universal narrative constructor, for instance - come anywhere near reality. >For instance, and I do not want to start a >new debate, I am convinced that Randles/Estes/Come hypothesis is >a valid one for explanation of a lot of the so-called abduction >phenomena.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 25 Re: Khoury Case - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:25:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:57:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Khoury Case - Clark >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:56:17 +0200 >Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:41:30 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:10:08 +0200 >>>Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:17:11 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: Khoury Case >>>>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:20:25 +0200 >>>>>Subject: Re: Khoury Case Hi, Luis, >>To start with, "believer" conflates, for example, Wendelle >>Stevens and Michael Salla with James McDonald and Peter >>Sturrock. Only a foolish or ignorant individual - or someone >>consciously employing the word for propagandistic purposes - >>would do so. >>"Skeptic," too, conflates Philip J. Klass and Donald Menzel >>with Marcello Truzzi and Henry Bauer. >I do understand your problem. I have always considered myself an >ufologist, and this 'label' got me very strange bed-fellows in >the mind of the non-initiated. Nevertheless, for the reasons of >my comparison, I believe it can be a useful distinction. I disagree respectfully. "Believer" implies that the individual came to a particular conclusion out of a desire, possibly quasi-religious, certainly naive, to embrace the concept of extraterrestrial (or other alien) visitation for reasons other than rational and empirical ones. It is a loaded, even insulting term which should be employed only by those who consciously intend to give offense. If you don't (and I am sure you are honestly so asserting), then I urge you to drop the phrase. The debate between thoughtful proponents and thoughtful doubters is about what constitutes proper evidence, a point on which genuinely curious inquirers can reasonably -- and, even more important, productively -- disagree. (Also implicit in the discussion, of course, are differing philosophical ideas of the possible, a largely intuitive sense which humans possess in all areas of life, not just anomalistics; science itself is driven by conflicting views of the possible, after all.) Believers and disbelievers, on the other hand, are what I think of as fundamentalists, holders of unshakable faiths which are ultimately impervious to falsification or even modification. Here the debate is not about evidence, which is not at issue except for rhetorical and propagandistic uses, but about who possesses superior virtue. Though often disguised rhetorically as rationality or intelligence, the argument is in truth always a moral one. That's why, for example, believers accuse prominent debunkers of being government disinformation agents, while debunkers charge that believers, at least those who aren't too dumb to cross the street unassisted, are at heart cynical exploiters of public credulity. Of course, being called "sincere" by a debunker is another kind of insult: a condescending one, spoken always as if to a child. The problem actually is that _both_ sides are "sincere" by this definition. Neither side can imagine it could
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 25 Local Accepted By Hopi Chiefs From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:04:14 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:04:14 -0400 Subject: Local Accepted By Hopi Chiefs Source: NBC News Channel Six - TV - Pocatello, Idaho http://www.kpvi.com/index.cfm?page=nbcheadlines.cfm&ID=28023 Aug 21, 2005 Local Accepted By Hopi Indian Chiefs Do flying saucers really exist? One local man who spoke with Tammy Scardino says he believes they do and offers this explanation. Paul Solem says he's the only white man to ever be accepted by late traditional Hopi Indian chiefs. Paul Solem, Self-Proclaimed Prophet: "And they finally accepted me after a great conference amongst all the elders; and that divided the tribe." The 83-year-old Fort Hall resident has traveled the world, lecturing about the Hopi Indian warning and the flying saucer message. Saturday, he spoke with Blackfoot residents about his experiences. He claims he telepathically communicates with spaceships on a regular basis. To prove it, at the end of each lecture he calls for a flying saucer to make a visual pass overhead. "You see, a lot of people don't know that we're visited in our atmosphere actually by extra-terrestrial beings that are dimensional - they live in another dimension. So, the heat of the planets or the cold of Pluto, that has nothing to do with it." Solem's message does not end with the idea that we're not alone in the universe. He also tells of the Hopi prophecy, a prophecy that foretells of a fire in the sky that cannot be put out. That fire, he contends, will be caused by an explosion of plutonium and spent uranium at the Idaho National Laboratory. In the midst of this great holocaust, he says the true white brother will survive the great fire, to bring on purification day. "The political set-up will be divinely overthrown throughout the earth, because it's all corrupt. I don't care where you go." While the Hopi Indians may have abandoned their traditional past, Solem carries on the message to all who is willing to listen.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 25 Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood - From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:07:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood - >From: Bill Hamilton<skyman22.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:35:50 -0700 >Subject: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood <snip> >It was refreshing to see a film sans debunkers and one that >should lay to rest that anyone videotaped or saw 'flares' on the >night of March 13, 1997 or January 14, 1998 or earlier or later >sightings of the orbs and triangles seen over the Phoenix area >as I have contended in my book and Dr. Kitei has contended in >hers. The scientific facts are irrefutable - I take that back - >refutable by those who wish to continue to debate. While I was unable to take advantage of the kind invitation from Dr. Kitei's group to attend the local premier here in Phoenix, I have heard that the production was well done and quite convincing. What most people don't realize, is that March 13, 1997 was not a solitary sighting. In reality, it is an important instance of what clearly is an ongoing phenomenon. More importantly, theanomalies that are now occurring here, are now being tracked and documented. Publicizing the results of this work is currently not in the best interest of science; however, I think sharing a couple recent examples in this forum won't hurt. The first video may be of particular importance, as it includes the appearance of flares while documenting some anomalous lights. The first couple minutes of this video was taken in the process of documenting a bright stationary light that seemed to have another light slowly orbiting about it. After observing this for a time, a group of flares suddenly appear at what looks to be a location directly above these lights, which respond in kind by disappearing. The result makes for an interesting and valuable example of the diifferences between these spherical lights and the more dynamic illumination produced by chemical combustion which has a sloppy appearance. www.worldblend.net/worldblendbu/PHXLIGHTS/Lightthenflare3m.wmv Second clip shows a light popping in and out of sight, then appears for a final time in a grand finale. www.worldblend.net/worldblendbu/PHXLIGHTS/ShootStrng.wmv >Warner is considering releasing it nationwide in theaters near >you. We haven't had a documentary film on UFOs appear in >theaters in a long, long while. Interesting... it would seem the subject of UFOs has joined the ranks of Reality TV in regards to what the Studios/Networks view as products that are in demand. >Kudos to Dr. Lynne I'll ditto your kudos and raise you a bravo. Rob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 25 Secrecy News -- 08/24/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:33:53 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:10:08 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/24/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 81 August 24, 2005 ** NSPD 43: DOMESTIC NUCLEAR DETECTION ** NETHERLANDS: ANNUAL REPORT ON INTELLIGENCE ** SELECTED CRS REPORTS NSPD 43: DOMESTIC NUCLEAR DETECTION In a characteristically unilateral action, the Bush Administration last April used a National Security Presidential Directive (NSPD) to establish the Domestic Nuclear Detection Office (DNDO) within the Department of Homeland Security, the purpose of which is to coordinate the detection of nuclear materials for illicit use. But Congress, expressing dissatisfaction with the President's unilateral move, sharply reduced proposed funding for the new Office. "On April 15, 2005, the President signed a joint presidential directive establishing the office, NSPD-43/HSPD-14, 'Domestic Nuclear Detection'," said DNDO Acting Director Vayl Oxford in testimony before the House Homeland Security Committee on June 21. This was the first public acknowledgment that the DNDO had been established by means of a national security presidential directive. (Noted by Jeffrey Lewis of ArmsControlWonk.com.) The full text of NSPD 43 has not been publicly disclosed, but a copy of the associated fact sheet may be found here: http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/nspd/nspd-43fs.html Both the House and Senate Appropriations Committees criticized the way in which the DNDO had been established and both cut $100 million from the Office's proposed $227 million budget for 2006. Creation of the DNDO is an example "of action being taken before thoughtful planning despite the seriousness of the problems being addressed," the Senate Appropriations Committee averred (Sen. Report 109-83). "Hasty solutions are fostering an apparent false sense of security." "The Committee strongly agrees with the importance of improving nuclear detection capabilities and coordination, but is troubled by the manner in which this initiative has been handled." Sen. Joseph Lieberman (D-CT) complained about the "lack of consultation on the proposed reorganization," and itemized his specific concerns in a 9 page letter to the Department of Homeland Security on June 10. See: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_cr/lieberman061005.pdf The White House largely dismissed the congressional criticism and complained in a July 11 statement that "making a large portion of DNDO funds contingent upon further congressional review may delay improvements in the Nation's capability to defend against catastrophic threats." "This initiative is a top priority of the Administration," the White House said. NETHERLANDS: ANNUAL REPORT ON INTELLIGENCE The General Intelligence and Security Service (AIVD) of the Netherlands has just released an English translation of its 2004 annual report, providing a Dutch perspective on national and international security matters. "In 2004 the Netherlands was hit by a terrorist attack: the murder of film-director Theo van Gogh," the report begins. "The possibility of an attack had been anticipated for some time, in view of the threat emanating from radical Islamist terrorism. The fact that an attack indeed took place has underlined the vulnerability of our society." The report provides a parallax view on issues of international concern and presents an interesting complement to the assessments of U.S. intelligence agencies. The AIVD, which appears relatively free of the indiscriminate secrecy that has tended to erode the performance of U.S. intelligence, reports matter-of-factly on its annual budget expenditures (p. 69). The vestigial Central Intelligence Agency, by contrast, still argues that even 50 year old budget figures are too sensitive to be disclosed. A copy of the 2004 annual report of the AIVD, published in English translation on August 21, may be found here: http://www.fas.org/irp/world/netherlands/aivd2004-eng.pdf SELECTED CRS REPORTS New or newly acquired reports of the Congressional Research Service, obtained by Secrecy News, include the following: "Nuclear Arms Control: The U.S.-Russian Agenda," updated August 8, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/IB98030.pdf "Postal Reform Bills: A Side-by-Side Comparison of H.R. 22 and S. 662," updated August 4, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32903.pdf "The Vietnam-U.S. Normalization Process," updated June 17, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IB98033.pdf "Public Safety Communications: Policy, Proposals, Legislation and Progress," updated June 8, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RL32594.pdf "POWs and MIAs: Status and Accounting Issues," updated June 8, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/IB92101.pdf "Tactical Aircraft Modernization: Issues for Congress," updated June 3, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/IB92115.pdf "North Korea's Nuclear Weapons Program," updated June 3, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/IB91141.pdf "Exemptions from Environmental Law for the Department of Defense: An Overview of Congressional Action," June 2, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RS22149.pdf "Cuba: Issues for the 109th Congress," updated May 25, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL32730.pdf "Foreign Aid: Understanding Data Used to Compare Donors," updated May 23, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RS22032.pdf "Flag Protection: A Brief History and Summary of Recent Supreme Court Decisions and Proposed Constitutional Amendment," updated May 19, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/95-709.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 25 Richard Hall Resigns From FUFOR From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:39:59 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:14:00 -0400 Subject: Richard Hall Resigns From FUFOR Continuing my gradual withdrawal from the UFO field (both physically and psychologically), I have submitted my resignation as a Board Member to the chairman of the Fund for UFO Research and in the future will devote far less of my time to the subject and that will be in other places. My reasons for this are too complex to explain in a short message, but basically I think FUFOR is moribund. Speaking as a founding member and past chairman, FUFOR currently is being poorly led, is out of touch with the pulse of the field, and has lost its focus on the central mission that it was established to accomplish. I regret having to say this. In recent years Rob Swiatek, as secretary-treasurer, has been trying to carry an impossible load while employed full time in his professional job, and he has been primarily responsible for the one good thing that FUFOR has accomplished in recent years: production of some very good publications that, unfortunately, few people are aware of. Due to apparent poor leadership and abysmal communications, the Fund web site seldom is updated, does not include the information on most of the new publications, and Fund supporters no longer receive regular Quarterly Reports as they are supposed to. Except for those publications, the Fund has almost nothing to offe anymore. I will continue to publish the Journal of UFO History, post information on the UFO page of my web site: www.hallrichard.com and occasionally chime in here on this List - mostly to express my dismay at the demise of any semblance of real 'ufology' in the sense of scientifically oriented, careful, critical assessment of data. Today I had the misfortune of having my attention attracted to an obviously fake document about Roswell posted by Robert and Ryan Wood (the IPU document), and reported breathlessly by Linda Moulton Howe. I propose an annual award for the most gullible ufoologist of the year. Lots of candidates out there ready to believe totally
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 25 Re: Gauche Encounters - Morton From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:14:42 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:03:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Gauche Encounters - Morton >From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 06:06:45 -0400 >Subject: Gauche Encounters >Hi, >Gauche Encounters, Martin Kottmeyer's long unpublished but much >quoted essay about bad movies and the UFO mythos is now >available to view on the Talking Pictures website at: >http://www.talkingpix.co.uk/ArticleGaucheEncounters.html >Cheers >Nigel Watson Wow. What a crackerjack analysis by Kottmeyer. And no pesky surprises or complicated analysis to chew on, either! What is this psychological concept called - the belief that fictional ideas and images absorbed from various media, causing subsequent nightmares, scars and bruises, are actually true? How about "Fictophrenia with Contusions"? What about nightmares of "real" events depicted in the media? I propose the term "NullusReportusRealia". The situation where fictional ideas do NOT cause nightmares and are not reported to a therapist are more problematic. For example, I wonder how many people who've seen The Wizard of Oz report nightmares of being pursued by a witch and a monkey army through the Haunted Forest. Or ordered by a witch to give her those ruby slippers before the hourglass runs out. We just never hear of patients saying, "Doc, I keep having these frightening dreams, night after night, of a witch demanding that I give her my ruby slippers... Then Auntie Em appears, but she can't hear me..." These would be cases of "NullusReportusFictia" for which science probably has no explanation, but need not concern us here. As long as a theory addresses 1/3 of the issue while ignoring other invalidating aspects, it's a good theory. No proof is required as long as considerable evidence can be piled on the pet-theory side. This is similar to the way some police forces operate in certain countries: If the thief was a man who drove a car, all the police need to do is find any man driving any car, and they have their culprit. This has worked quite well in a number of countries, and there's never been a need to obtain additional evidence of culpability or bother with a trial. I congratulate Kottmeyer on finding the culprit causing the abduction reports, and identifying these victims of Fictophrenia with Contusions. Investigating people with NullusReportusRealia and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 25 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:05:00 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:05:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Gehrman >From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:01:07 -0500 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:49:21 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>I'll tell you one thing you can know for sure: the alien autopsy >>is real footage of a real creature who crashed in a dry lake bed >>about 10 miles SW of Socorro on May 31st, 1947. Until >>'ufologists' figure that out, you and them will continue to not >>"know anything for sure...". >It's your certitude that makes me envious. You don't doubt >certain things. >I, on the other hand, take the view of Montaigne: What do I >know? Rich, But aren't you trying to know? If not, what's the point of being on this List? The reason that I'm certain of the AA film is that for the last ten years I've studied its detail, from every possible angle. I've searched for and found the crash site described by the cameraman and had material from this site scientifically analyzed. I've collaborated with other interested folks, and discussed the subject until the cows came home. So yes, I'm quite sure that Ray Santilli and the cameraman are telling the truth about the AA, and that it is footage of a real event. I theorize that the creature is a monotreme by comparing the visible features of the creature with a general description of monotremes. My theory that UFO are from an earth-evolved civilization resulted from closely examining the AA debris and realizing that the craft couldn't have been a starship. I've also studied the similarity between the script found on the I- beams and the writing from ancient texts. I guess what I'm hinting at is that "knowing" takes time and effort, or as
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 25 Re: Remember The 'Flying Men' Of 1948? - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:04:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:17:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Remember The 'Flying Men' Of 1948? - Maccabee >From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:18:45 -0400 >Subject: Remember The 'Flying Men' Of 1948? >Here's an article that reminds me of the flying men sighted over >Washington State, in January and April of 1948. Long ago dug >out the original source material and wrote about them as "winged >weirdies," as I recall. > - Loren ----- >Source: Ananova News >http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1512284.html >Wednesday, August 24, 2005 >Superman Spotted In Serbia >Serbian authorities are investigating reports of a real-life >Superman after people claimed to have seen a cloaked figure >lying over their houses. >Hundreds of residents in Ljubovija described seeing a cloaked >person flying above buildings "as if he had an invisible engine >on his back" and changing directions while in mid-air, local >daily Blic reported. >One local said: "It was like something out of Superman or >Batman. No one has any rational explanation for what we all >saw."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 25 Re: An Open Question To The List - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:54:58 -1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:45:47 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Salla >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:58:54 -0300 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:03:13 -1000 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:26:59 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:18:21 -1000 >>>>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List <snip> >>There is no mention in your statement of a "cosmic watergate" to >>hide the truth orchestrated by the most senior levels of >>government. Essentially you were replicating the rigorous >>scientific method advocated by Hynek and McDonald in terms of >>UFO sightings and affirming the importance of documentation for >>UFO research. I don't see any difference between you and >>Hynek in terms of the methodology you used in arriving at your >>conclusions which was my point. >Michael, in case you hadn't noticed Watergate took place during >the second term of Richard Nixon. He resigned in August, 1974. >Not being psychic, I naturally didn't use the term "Cosmic >Watergate in 1968. Furthermore, in case you hadn't noticed, the >FOIA didn't produce a lot of government UFO documents until well >after 1974. That is why I referenced my 2005 paper which does >take advantage by referral to the fine work by Bruce Maccabee, >Brad Sparks, Peter Gersten and many others in shaking loose >government UFO documents.You should have noticed that I also >referred to deception by the Air Force in my 1968 paper. The term 'Cosmic Watergate' of course was coined after Nixon's resignation. However, the concept "Cosmic Watergate" has been commented upon much earlier by those such as Donald Keyhoe in the Flying Saucer Conspiracy where the conspiracy to hide evidence concerning the ETH was clearly described. As for 'deception' by the Air Force you say in your 1968 paper: "This data, which most people have never seen or even heard of, is published in a document entitled, Project Blue Book Special Report Number 14, which was completed in 1955 and has never been made readily available. The low percentage of Unknowns since that time is the direct result of deception on the part of the U.S. Air Force whose entire approach since that time has been based upon the assumption that everything can be identified." The deception you refer to concerns the USAF offering explanations for "unknowns". That is certainly deceptive and you are right to point it out. However, what Keyhoe had been refering to much earlier was something that was imposed by the highest level of the US military to systematically repress all data on the ETH and UFOs. Keyhoe was the first major UFO researcher to advocate a "cosmic watergate" though of course the term was coined much later and Keyhoe just referred to the "flying saucer conspiracy" - a rose by any other name... >>Your public advocacy of a "Cosmic Watergate" appears to have >>come much later, and certainly long after Donald Keyhoe had >>publically come forward to reveal his own version of it in the >>Flying Saucer Conspiracy (1955) and subsequent works. In that >>sense, you are correct to point out the substantive difference >>in the conclusions reached between you and Hynek and McDonald. >>Nevertheless, despite these substantive differences in your >>conclusions, you shared the same methodology in developing >>your conclusions. >Yes, we all three are interested in facts and data, theset don't >seem to concern you at all. I have never said facts and data don't matter or concern me. I have continuously pointed out that facts shouldn't just be viewed as 'hard evidence' and that 'soft evidence' is also admissable for rigorous UFO research. There is much data that comprises 'soft evidence' in the form of whistleblower testimony that is vitally important that is largely ignored by UFO researchers. >>As far as your theory of a 'Cosmic Watergate' is concerned based >>on your documentary research in substantiating the >>Roswell/Corona crash and several of the Majestic documents, I >>congratulate you for excellent work in these regards. You will >>find no criticism from me in that regard. However, I do question >>the appropriateness of a methodology which makes documentation >>the inflexible foundation for all UFO research. That is >>misplaced since "cosmic watergate" can only be maintained >>through the manipulation and removal of documentation. That is >>the only sensible means for enforcing security against potential >>whistleblowers. >Sorry again, Michael, but you are totally neglecting the heavily >censored UFO documents by the CIA and NSA, the lies from the >FBI. These don't relate to Roswell and MJ-12.You are also >neglecting classification. Ok Stan, you make a good point. The question is whether a secrecy system based on outright deception, censoring of FOIA documents, and a compartmentalized classification system is enough to maintain secrecy over five decades concerning the ETH? After all, these were the things used to keep the Manhattan Project secret so why wouldn't they succeed with the ETH/UFOs? I think the main difference was that the Manhattan Project occurred during war conditions when national survival was at stake. It would become harder to prevent unauthorized disclosures by personnel directly involved in various projects associated with recovered ETVs, captured EBEs, etc., as the decades passed on. For example, many of the witnesses from Steven Greer's Disclosure Project were motivated by the belief that decades long secrecy is unconstitutional and the public has a right to know. It is logical to conclude that those on the secret committees (eg., MJ-12) running ET affairs understood the danger posed by unauthorized disclosures by those personnel not deterred by the conventional penalties for classified projects. In that case it would have been necessary to develop a system whereby those participating in such projects would not have a paper trail to document their training and/or service for such projects. That is very logical and I think any group of people (MJ-12) sitting down together to stratagize what would be the most effective means of maintaining the Cosmic Watergate would conclude that manipulating and removal of documentation would be necessary as the deception spanned over several decades, and more employees became disgruntled with the continued secrecy. Conceptually then, it is necessary to conclude that document manipulation/tampering for the credentials/records of personnel in the covert projects would have been necessary and was introduced at some point. >>I think it very rational for the national security system to >>have set up a 'cosmic watergate' where documentation for workers >>can be removed or altered in order to prevent and contain >>unauthorized disclosures. >You have been making this wild claim for some time now and have >provided no evidence to substantiate it. My claim is not wild but a logical corollary of how to maintain a cosmic watergate over a number of decades with an increasingly disgruntled number of personnel involved in such projects. I think it very illogical and naive not to assume that tampering and alteration of documents concerning personnel involved in covert projects involving ETVS/EBEs would have become standard policy at some point to minimize the damage posed by unauthorized disclosures. >>This is precisely what whistleblowers >>such as Clifford Stone, Bob Lazar allege, and you are on the >>record for regarding such a claim as 'bunk'. >You have not established that these allegations are anything but >bunk. I established that Lazar didn't go to MIT or Cal >Tech..That MWKruvant didn't obtain any of the degrees he >claimed. Kevin Randle has dealt with Stone's background >enlargement . You keep making unsubstantiated claims. Bob Lazar, Michael Wolf, Clifford Stone, Daniel Burisch, Dan Sherman, Daniel M. Salter, etc., are just a few who claim that their records were removed/altered as a result of their participation in such projects. These are serious claims and need to be seriously explored and not rejected a priori due to the absence of documents to conclusively validate their backgrounds. I have to remind you that many still believe that there is sufficient evidence to substantiate the credentials of each of these whistleblowers despite the documents that substantiate specific activities they performed during their service/employment. >>Your idea that >>"cosmic watergate" can be maintained by systematic lying and >>that document tampering/removeal does not occur, is illogical. >>The internal logic of your position is inconsistent which shows >>you have not thought threw the logical consequences of your own >>conclusions. The cosmic watergate cannot be maintained just by >>systematic lying, it also requires systematic tampering and >>manipulation of documentation. >Another proclamation. with no data. You seem to have left out >the word withholding on grounds of National Security. You have >not shown systematic tampering or manipulation of documentation. >Note the whiteout on the NSA UFO documents. I have repeatedly cited the claims of whistleblowers who say documents concering their training and appointments were tampered with. Each of these whistleblowers does provide varying degrees of data to support their case. You may argue the data is inconclusive or insufficient to persuade you but it is still data that some including myself take very seriously given the nature of the Cosmic Watergate. >>That is the reason why we can't >>rigidly use documentation as the exclusive threshold for UFO >>research otherwise we'll dismiss all the testimony of >>whistleblowers such as Stone, Lazar who have much to reveal >>about covert projects. >So we should automatically accept that they can't establish >their own backgrounds? The simplest explanation is that they are >lying about their backgrounds and therefore one must be wary of >anything they say about their so called activities. >In case you hadn't noticed 2005 is 37 years after my >congressional testimony. Did you compare mine with Hynek's and >McDonald's? >Stan Friedman This is where your position is inconsistent and falls apart. You argue that a Cosmic Watergate exists but do not account for how an essential requirement for maintaining it for over five decades would be to prevent unauthorized disclosures by those employed in the covert ETV/EBE projects. Manipulating/removal of documents concerning the training, education and appointments of personnel would be vital to maintaining operational security. This would be necessary due to the higher chance of unauthorized disclosure as more employees become disgruntled over the secrecy system as it continued over the decades. The compartmentalized classification would prevent perhaps 95% of unauthorized disclosure but not the 5% of mavericks willing to face the penalites for coming forward for a system they believe is unconstitutional. That fits the personality profiles of whistleblowers like Clifford Stone, Bob Lazar, Daniel Burisch, Dan Sherman, etc. In order to prevent such a contingency, committees such as MJ-12 would have implemented a system that prevented those working on classified ETV/EBE projects having this included in their service records, education or employment. The evidence for this is the testimonies of those I've cited above who are coming forward in increasing numbers.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 25 Two New UFO/Astronomical Displays From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 03:31:05 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:51:17 -0400 Subject: Two New UFO/Astronomical Displays Hello all: I've long had up two histograms showing relative positions of planets during UFO sightings. The first one breaks down the positions of Venus with respect to Earth, in terms of stellar or sidereal longitudes: http://www.larryhatch.net/VENSPROX.html No big surprises there, pretty much a random distribution with 'bulges' on either side of the '12 hours zone' when Earth and Venus are on the same side of the Sun. I'm tempted to write that off as Venus misidentifications in spite of all efforts to filter out junk like that. The second one is for Mars, and much the same: http://www.larryhatch.net/MARSPROX.html except that sightings tend to increase here after Earth has passed Mars by some weeks or months. (All planets rotate counter-clockwise around the Sun as seen from the North Star.) One new display is the same thing for Jupiter: http://www.larryhatch.net/JUPTPROX.html There is a pronounced spike in sightings at 'zone 6' when Earth and Jupiter are 90 degrees apart in terms of stellar longitude. That spike results mostly from sightings waves in June/July 1952 (USA) plus October 1954 in France. A similar spike at zone 15 shows the effects of June/July 1947, plus several flaps combined between 1960 and 1972. This seems odd. One might expect a more random distribution. The second new display is for Saturn - Earth, and has yet another spike: http://www.larryhatch.net/SATRPROX.html this time at 'zone 22' when Earth passed Saturn in orbit by 5 months or more, and is nearly on the opposite side of the Sun. If this is hard to visualize, think of two wheels, one inside the other, rotating a different and unrelated rates. At random times, a randomly located spot on the inner wheel shoots out a blot of ink which sticks to the outer wheel. You would expect a random distribution of spots on the outer wheel, but UFO sightings come in waves and flaps, great and small. The Saturn anomaly (if that's what it is) results from a coincidence of 3 separate major UFO sightings waves in 1947 and 1957 in North America, plus 1954 in Europe, each of those at a different time of the year here. Other waves from 1950, 1952, the 1960s and 1973 are so scattered that they don't seem to show in the histogram. Comments and questions are welcomed, as always.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 25 Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell Theory From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:28:11 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:28:11 -0400 Subject: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell Theory Source: Steve Bartholomew's Charged Barticle Site http://chargedbarticle.org/truth_about_roswell.htm May 3, 2005 The Truth About Roswell I don't know if this story is true. All I can say is, it sounds plausible to me. I got it second hand, and the person who told me about it has since died. (In a very strange manner, but that's another story.) According to my informant, whom I will call Bill, his uncle had served as a surgeon in the U.S. Army from 1942 until 1952, when he retired and went into private medical practice. I never learned Bill's uncle's real name, but I will call him Captain Malone. That was his rank in 1947, when he was stationed in Roswell, New Mexico. Bill himself was told the story many years after the fact, when Captain Malone was in a nursing home dying of emphysema and still smoking whenever he had the chance. Bill said his uncle had never been the same man after events at Roswell. He carried a load of guilt with him all his life, but he had to tell at least one person before he died. I am going to relate this story in the first person, as if I am Bill talking to my uncle. This is almost word for word the way I heard it. * * * * * "You may think you know what really happened at Roswell," my uncle said. He coughed again. "But you don't. Nobody does, because the Government has done a really great job of disinformation. Do you know what disinformation is? It's the same thing a stage magician does, when he gets the audience to watch his right hand (Nothing up my sleeve!) when he is actually doing something with his left hand, or with his foot, or maybe it's his assistant off to one side who's doing something. "I was attached to General LeMay's SAC bomber squadron at Roswell, the only nuclear strike force in the World at the time. On July 2, 1947, I had just got back from a long training flight. As flight surgeon, I was supposed to monitor the crew's vital signs and make sure they were in good health. I was also supposed to watch out for possible radiation exposure. In other words, there wasn't a hell of a lot to do on those flights. They were long, boring, and usually exhausting. "When we landed at Roswell, I heard something was up. There was word about some kind of accident, and I was asked to remain on standby rather than leave the base. I didn't find that strange, since that sort of thing happens all the time in the Service. But next day, all Hell broke loose. "Now, there are generally speaking two divergent viewpoints about the incidents at Roswell. There is the Right Wing and the Left Wing. The Right Wingers believe everything the official stories tell them, no matter how many times the stories change. It was all a hoax or a mistake, or some kind of helium balloon and so on. "The Left Wingers all think the Government is flat-out lying, and it was a flying saucer that crashed in the desert, maybe two or three of them. Gotta be Aliens from outer space, or why all the secrecy? "It never seems to occur to anyone that maybe the Left Wing and the Right Wing are both wrong." The Captain had to pause for awhile to breath some O2. He seemed to take a few minutes to gather his recollections and think about what he was telling me. "Do you remember that movie, Alien Autopsy? It was on Fox TV a few years ago. Big news story for awhile. It was being promoted by that Brit producer, Santilli, who claimed he got the film from a former Army photographer. It was supposed to be a documentary of an autopsy of a space alien, one of the Roswell crash victims. "Well, oddly enough, the Right Wing and the Left Wing (at least most of the Left Wing) both agree on one opinion: that the film is a fake. The Right Wingers believe it's a fake because there are no space aliens. The Left Wingers doubt it mainly because the corpse on the table doesn't look exactly like what they think an alien should look like. "Now, I can't swear to it one way or the other, since I wasn't there when the film was made. But I don't see any reason to think it's fake. Based on what I saw, it's either an authentic film, or it's a good reenactment. "But it doesn't have anything to do with space aliens." At this point, Captain Malone said he wasn't feeling well and needed to take a break. I promised to come back as soon as possible, but it wasn't till more than a week later that I found the time. Fortunately, he was having a good day next time I saw him. He took up the story exactly where he had left off. "Now remember," he said, "this was in 1947. Do you know what else was going on in 1947? Most Americans even today have a lot of denial about what their own government has been doing ever since World War II. Have you read any history at all? If you have, you must know that the U.S. Government imported a lot of Nazi rocket scientists from Germany to work on the space program, even before the War was over. "What is less well known is that we also imported some Nazi doctors who had been running experiments in concentration camps. That was when the U.S. started getting involved in the same nasty business. Fact is, there's a long list of things we have done to our own citizens without their knowledge or consent. Truman authorized the CIA in 1947. He said later that was the biggest mistake he ever made. "The CIA carried out experiments giving huge doses of LSD and other drugs to our own military. They tried out poison gas on our own sailors and dropped supposedly harmless bacteria in the New York subway. They injected people with plutonium to see what would happen, they let people die of syphilis, they tested atomic bombs in Nevada knowing the fallout would land on Americans. I could go on and on, but you know what I'm talking about. Agent Orange, depleted uranium. "Of course, our Government doesn't do things like that, does it? Only the bad guys, like the Nazis and the Commies do stuff like that. You know not one individual has ever faced criminal charges for doing those things. "Now, think about what happened at Roswell, New Mexico in 1947. Anyone should be able to figure it out. Except that the Government did such a masterpiece of misdirection. I was there myself, I saw what happened, and it even took me some time to figure it out. "You know what had occurred only a few days before. June 24, Mt Rainier, Washington: Kenneth Arnold reports seeing nine objects shaped like flying wings and moving faster than anything else in the air at the time. It was a slow news day, so the wire services made a big deal out of them. Suddenly, flying saucers were all over the newspapers and magazines and on the radio. You know TV didn't come along until about a year later, when the first sets with their one-inch screens started showing up in stores. But of course the military was already using it in a few secret projects. "The point is, everybody was having jitters about flying saucers. Nobody was sure what they were =96 maybe a Russian secret weapon stolen from the Nazis, maybe an American device. The War was less than two years past. Not many were talking Outer Space as yet. "Now, Major Marcel was not in the loop. He was a lower level intelligence officer with SAC. So obviously no one had clued him in on any top secret projects or experiments that might be going on a few miles away at White Sands. So he made a natural mistake. There were no markings or insignia. He didn't know the wreckage belonged to us. "I was supposed to get a day off after that long training flight. But then reports started coming in of a crash in the desert, with casualties. I was one of the first people to get there, to view the bodies. There were two of them, wearing blue uniforms without any kind of markings. The bodies looked pretty much like the one in that autopsy film. "The wreckage looked something like a flying wing, like what Arnold described. It wasn't a balloon, nor was it an aircraft. I good a good look at it. It was a glider." Here my uncle took another break, to rest for a few minutes. I suspect he really just wanted to give me time to stew over that last statement and its implications. When he was ready to start talking again, he sounded sure of what he was telling me. "Marcel jumped the gun. He put out a press release saying we had found a 'flying disc.' He believed it was probably some kind of Russian experiment. I made arrangements to get the bodies back to the base immediately, rather than leave them out in the desert any longer. Someone else on the staff telephoned a local civilian undertaker to order coffins. The bodies were all under five feet tall, so we needed a special size casket. I got ready to do some blood tests and examinations prior to autopsy. "Then the next day, the Brass came down like a ton of, well, brass. Maximum security. Marcel had to retract the news release. Suddenly the base was swamped with special Project people, who started fanning out to talk to civilians, getting them to clam up somehow. I was ordered to go nowhere near the casualties again, or look at the wreckage, or even think about it. It never happened. Everything got carted off to Wright Patterson, where I guess that film was made. "Now, can you figure out what this was all about? You might come close if you read the official explanations. The first story was the weather balloon. Of course no one believed that. Years later, they had to change the story once or twice. What's interesting is that the official releases were all somewhat close to the truth, close enough to be plausible, but not too close. "There was Project Mogul. That really existed. It was a high altitude balloon project that didn't have anything to do with weather predicting. Only problem about that, someone double checked and found out there was no Mogul launch for about two weeks before the Roswell incident. "Then they had to come up with an explanation for the small bodies. Easy: We were using crash test dummies dropped from balloons. Witnesses saw the dummies, thought they were real. They really did drop dummies out of airplanes, but not for several years after Roswell. "What was really clever about these stories was that they all had elements of fact in them. But not too many facts. At the same time, Disinformation was at work. The intelligence people were secretly encouraging stories about aliens and flying saucers. Phony information was leaked to people they knew would talk. The alien story wouldn't go away. It got so deeply imbedded in folk legend that when that Alien Autopsy film was released, the public could consider only two possible explanations: Hoax or space ships. "What made the Government's job easier was that no one even wanted to think about the obvious explanation. "Do you want to think about it, Bill? Have you figured it out yet?" The Captain put his hands on his knees and sat staring at me for a minute, till I began to feel uncomfortable. I had to admit that, no, I had not figured it out, despite all the clues he had given me. He sighed. "People want to think that we're always the good guys. Not like those Nazi scientists, who carry out experiments on human beings." It was my turn to sit and stare for a minute. "You mean, those small bodies were=85" "Crash test dummies," he said. "Live ones." Then he gave a little shrug. "Well, not that they crashed on purpose. That wasn't the intent. The reason for the experiment was to find out what happens when humans are exposed to high altitude conditions for a long period. You remember those Nazi scientists who were running the space program? Prior to 1947, not many humans had visited the stratosphere. A V2 rocket could only get up there for a few minutes. We were still flying in Mustangs and B-29's. The only way to get to that altitude for any length of time was in a balloon with a pressurized cabin. "The scientists were worried about things like cosmic rays, solar radiation, and meteors. They also wanted to see how much of a shield a pilot would need from a nuclear power plant =96 they were already thinking about atomic rockets and so forth. "So they started sending volunteers up in high altitude balloons, in gondolas with radioactive isotopes aboard. The gondolas themselves were really balloon-launched gliders, shaped like flying wings. They were light weight, but made of high-tech plastics developed by the Nazis during the war. The idea was, when it was time to bring the volunteers back down, the gondola would be released and guided down by remote control. It could glide for hundreds of miles and land anywhere in the desert. "But the part I didn't like =96 and the reason this has all been kept secret since 1947 =96 was where they were finding their volunteers. Of course they didn't want to risk an expensive and highly trained test pilot. There was hardly any training necessary. And of course, they wanted people with small bodies that didn't weigh much =96 and most important, people who would never be missed. "They were easy to find. In those days, people with severe disabilities or birth defects and no money or family didn't have too many options. They could join a carnival and be in the freak show, they could beg in the streets. Or they could spend their lives in a State-run charity home. I believe these volunteers were recruited from all three sources. I think some of them were mentally retarded as well as physically impaired. When that Autopsy Film came out, there was speculation about Turner's Syndrome. I don't know, that might have been one of the problems. There used to be a lot of birth defects, from drug use and industrial chemicals. I heard one of the volunteers had a mother who used to work in a radium dial watch factory. "Can't you imagine the recruiter's sales pitch? You don't have to spend the rest of your life in this place after all. You can have a real job, become a test pilot, and help your country. Plus a good salary and medical benefits. Just sign here. Of course, no one must know. This is Top Secret. Whoever was running the Poor Farm wasn't about to object." I interrupted the Captain to ask him about some peculiar things I remembered seeing in the Alien Autopsy film. "Those strange looking internal organs, you mean? They were not organs. I'm not sure exactly what they were. You may remember that the body on the table had no belly button. The reason was that it had been removed in a previous surgical operation, to insert an implant. I believe it was a sponge containing a drug or chemical, but I'm not sure of its purpose. On the other hand, it may have been a tumor. And then of course there were the contact lens implants, that were supposed to protect against UV. "You may recall the film showing wreckage parts. There was the 'I' beam, clearly stamped "VIDEO TV." And the metal plates designed to fit six fingered hands. They were not control devices, they didn't have any switches attached. Their only function was to contact the volunteer's hands, so they could read data like temperature, pulse rate and skin resistance. If the volunteer failed to touch the plates on command, it would mean either he was no longer conscious, or the equipment had failed. In which case the gondola would be automatically released and flown down. "I'm not sure exactly what happened on the first of July. I know there had been an electrical storm. I think that may have damaged the balloons and screwed up their guidance equipment. I believe there were several different craft in the air at the same time. I know there were at least two separate crashes. "But no one at SAC had a clue. We were not part of the Project. Major Marcel took one look at the wreckage and thought, "Unconventional Aircraft." He immediately connected it in his mind with those flying saucer stories that were all over the country. He jumped the gun by putting out a press release. "Next day, of course, Washington came down hard and clamped the lid on. I had one good look at the bodies and the wreck, then the Professionals took over. And they made it clear to everybody that if we ever talked about it, we'd all be in deep doo-doo. "So now you know why they destroyed all the records from Roswell for that year. Removed every bit of wreckage, shredded every memo and telegram. Sometimes I wonder if they would have terminated everyone on the base, if they hadn't thought they need SAC. It wasn't because of interplanetary aliens. It was because they didn't want the public to find out what they had done." My uncle stared off into the distance. By now he was out of breath. "Sometimes I wonder," he said, "if they learned anything useful from that experiment." And that's about all that Bill had to tell me. If this story has upset or offended you, I can only say I hope it's not true. Personally, I'd prefer to believe in Space Aliens. ~~Bart For more historical background, take a look at this: www.healthnewsnet.com/humanexperiments.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Secrecy News -- 08/25/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:54:49 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:07:36 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/25/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 82 August 25, 2005 ** PENTAGON ORDERS "NO COMMENT" ON BRAC ** DCI GOSS ADDRESSES CIA EMPLOYEES (SEPT 2004) ** ODDS AND ENDS FROM CRS PENTAGON ORDERS "NO COMMENT" ON BRAC Acting Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon England directed senior Pentagon officials this week not to comment on the recommendations of the Defense Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) Commission, which is currently holding its final hearings. "It's important that Department of Defense personnel refrain from answering questions or providing comments regarding the Commission's recommendations," England wrote in an August 23, 2005 memo. See: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/08/dod082305.pdf All inquiries should be referred to DoD spokesman Michael Wynne, Mr. England wrote. On August 24, Mr. Wynne issued the following statement: "We will begin to carefully review the commission's recommendations, and will have no comment on specific commission actions this week." DCI GOSS ADDRESSES CIA EMPLOYEES (SEPT 2004) The text of a speech given by Director of Central Intelligence Porter Goss at his first meeting with CIA employees last September was finally approved for public release by the CIA last month, and disclosed this week. To the untrained eye, the speech appears to be an awkward attempt by the new Director to establish rapport with a suspicious audience, filled out by page after page of hollow rhetoric. "My plan is very simple. It's for a dedicated focus on Mission, Capabilities, and Success," DCI (now DCIA) Goss said. But the Washington Post, which independently obtained the text of the speech last October, said then that it "offers the most extensive insight into [Goss's] plans for the agency since he took over and all but shut down CIA communications with the public." (WP, 10/22/04). A copy of the newly released September 24, 2004 speech to CIA employees is available here: http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/goss092404.pdf "I know that everything I say, or don't say, today is going to be interpreted in a lot of ways," Mr. Goss said ambiguously. ODDS AND ENDS FROM CRS A few more recent reports of the Congressional Research Service obtained by Secrecy News include: "Defense Procurement: Full Funding Policy -- Background, Issues, and Options for Congress," updated June 28, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL31404.pdf "Macedonia (FYROM): Post-Conflict Situation and U.S. Policy," updated June 17, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL32172.pdf "Oman: Reform, Security, and U.S. Policy," updated June 28, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS21534.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 34 From: John Hayes <John.nul> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:15:53 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:12:15 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 34 My apology for the late delivery of the bulletin and lack of updates on the UFOINFO website. I have been without an Internet connection since Monday morning and had to wait until today for a new cable box to be installed - John @ UFOINFO. ========================== Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan.nul> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 10, Number 34 August 24, 2005 Editor: Joseph Trainor E-mail: Masinaigan.nul website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ TWO LUMINOUS UFOs SEEN IN THE CRIMEA In the wake of last week's Reptoid encounter, ufologists in Crimea, an autonomous region in the south of the Ukraine bordering the Black Sea, have set up skywatches on a nightly basis. And twice their vigilance has paid off. On Tuesday, August 9, 2005, at approximately 2:45 a.m., ufologist Anton A. Anfalov was at Kanaka Yar, a ravine between the villages of Rybachye and Privetnoye, near Alushta, with his binoculars and camcorder ready. Suddenly, Anton reported, "I saw an unidentified flying object in the southeastern part of the sky. The object revealed itself by a bright flash of yellow light. The flash was remarkably bright. Then, in five to six seconds, a second flash occurred, and, in another five to six seconds, the third. The object was definitely moving from east to southeast." "After three flashes of bright phosphorescent white light, I saw no more flashes. This is impossible for it to be an airplane because it was at such a high altitude. I also saw numerous conventional aircraft passing overhead, using the Alushta air corridor towards Simferopol Airport." On Friday, August 12, 2005, at 9:40 p.m., Anton returned to his hilltop lookout overlooking Kanaka Yar and "saw a very bright red-yellowish flash of light under the Ursa Major (also known as the Big Dipper--J.T.) constellation. It was hardly a meteor, not having any tail, and very unlike the large number of meteors I have seen over the years." Anton added that Kanaka Yar is well-known to Ukrainian ufologists. "In October 1990, at 11 p.m., local shepherd Nikolai Obornev and hunter Valery Nikolayev reported an amazing close encounter" at the ravine "with 'numerous bodies of light' hovering over the Karadi-Yaila plateau, which then 'dropped out of sight.'" (Many thanks to Anton A. Anfalov for this news story.) CANADIAN UFO FLAP CONTINUES IN THE WEST On Tuesday, August 2, 2005, at 10:30 p.m., Marge P. spotted a UFO while in the backyard of her home in Langenburg, Saskatchewan, Canada (population 1,119). The object was approaching from the northwest, she reported. "It was a very bright white light, so bright I recall raising my arm to protect my eyes. Just as quick as it appeared, it disappeared to the north. The light seemed to turn north and then went out. It was a white round bright light." "I'm not sure what speed it moved at, but it was very high in the sky." Langenburg, Sask. is on Provincial Highway 16 about 40 miles (64 kilometers) east of Regina. On Sunday, August 21, 2005, at 3 a.m., Jack M. was in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada (population 616,306) when he saw a strange object in the sky, "moving from west to east, then it stopped. Moved a little bit to my right as I was facing west." "Well, I have to say I don't believe it until I see it," Jack explained, "But right now, it's 5:04 a.m. on August 21, 2005, and I've been watching three lights in the sky for the past two hours that I just can't explain. They are continually going up, down, left, right, but generally staying in the same area of the sky. They are a little brighter than any star, but you can tell they're much closer." "I have a 6.3 megapixel digital camera but I couldn't see anything with it because there are too many lights around here. But I did get a closer look with my 7 X 35mm binoculars." "I first spotted the one because it was moving like a satellite. But then it stopped and, within the next 15 minutes, I noticed the other two. I had five friends witness this phenomenon. Thought I'd just pass this information on. Two were white, and the other one looked more orange than white, which was the closest to me." (Email Form Reports) SPEEDY UFO SIGHTED OVER SAN FRANCISCO STADIUM On Saturday, August 13, 2005, at 10:30 p.m., David Wernette "was at a Dave Mathews Band concert at Giants Stadium in San Francisco" when he saw "a single object fairly low in the sky over the bay. The object moved north rapidly, then hovered in the sky, then gained altitude and dropped behind some cloud cover." "Until it got dark, there was this heavy foglike cloud cover, but it partially broke up as it got late. I watched many planes make the trek across the sky, and then what I thought was an awesome meteor" appeared "quite low in the sky to the west. It was a solid white light which did not diminish or grow in intensity as it zipped on a course almost due north for a few seconds. It then paused and changed altitude very rapidly, forming a quick and very tight loop in the sky, after which it continued to gain altitude until I lost sight of it in some patchy cloud cover." "I've never seen a man-made craft move with such speed or manueverability, and I was left dumbfounded. The sequence of events was less than 10 seconds, so I didn't get a chance to get my friends' attention to show it to them." "I was the only witness that I know of." "The object was at about a 20-degree angle from (above) the horizon, with a maximum speed of over 3,000 miles per hour, or at least five times the speed of the nearby planes. Its color was a white light, too distant to tell about any shape or size." (Email Form Report) "SAUCER SUNDAY" SEES TWO UFO EVENTS IN UK Two UFO sightings were reported in UK on August 21, 2005, making it a "Saucer Sunday" for the British Isles. On Sunday, August 21, 2005, at 12:45 p.m., Louise Jackson was outdoors, enjoying "a sunny day" in the Northwood Hills of Middlesex, UK when she spied "a tiny bright white sphere approaching from the south to the southeast." "The bright white sphere moved extremely steady and slowly, hardly at all at times," she reported, "Possibly there were two other objects--two bright longer objects-- in the northwest and southeast of the sky but moving very fast. The object briefly veered once each and then disappeared." Later the same Sunday, at 6:35 p.m., eyewitness S.B. was at Wakefield, West Yorkshire, UK when he spotted a UFO "travelling from the south." "On a relatively clear summer's evening, I looked up and saw a black object that was continually changing shape. It appeared to be flipping over on itself. It seemed to be very high up and travelling slowly. I was not able to tell how large or how small the object was. There was no noise." "I went indoors and got some binoculars and, when I went back outside, I managed to find the object (again) as it hadn't moved that much in the sky. It wasn't easy to focus on the object as my hands were shaking." "It wasn't round or cylindrical in shape but possibly was triangular. I followed the object for five to eight minutes and in this time it flashed a bright light a couple of times, although this could have been a reflection of the sun." S.B. added that the UFO's shape-changing "could be caused by the object turning, I suppose." (Email Form Reports) ARREST WARRANT ISSUED FOR INGRID RIMLAND-ZUNDEL Ingrid Rimland-Zundel, 69, of Pigeon Forge, Tennessee (population 5,083) has been named in an arrest warrant sworn out in Germany, which reportedly charges her with Holocaust denial. Rimland-Zundel is the wife of Ernst Zundel, 66, the "outcast ufologist" now a prisoner in Mannheim, Germany and facing trial on the same charge. Zundel was deported from Canada in early March 2005 after being held for two years without trial in Toronto's Metro West Detention Center. Zundel's case was recently taken over by the Landgericht, and authorities in Germany set the trial date for Tuesday, November 8, 2005. In her most recent communique, Ingrid said she had planned to visit Germany to support her husband during the trial but, because of the arrest warrant, this is no longer possible. "I should also add that an arrest warrant in Germany has been sworn out against me, as well, which means that I will not be able to attend the trial in Germany...Stand by for a Zundel Holocaust Trial Number 3, to be fought on the soil of Germany." Zundel was the defendant in two sensational Holocaust trials in Canada during the 1980s. Germany has charged Zundel with 14 counts of violating its laws against Holocaust denial, based on material Zundel had posted on his Web site. "These letters were legal in Canada, where most of them were written, thanks to the (Canadian) Supreme Court ruling in 1992 giving Ernst the right to say what he believes to be the truth," Ingrid wrote, "And they are legal in the United States, based on the First Amendment to the (USA's) Constitution. They were NOT written in Germany, where draconian laws are locked in place that serve the State of Israel and not the German people." Ingrid Rimland-Zundel herself is of German ancestry. She was born in the Ukraine, then part of the old Soviet Union, in 1936, to a Volksdeutsch (ethnic German) farm family whose Mennonite ancestors had settled on the steppes in the Seventeeth Century. Like her husband, she lived under Hitler's Third Reich during World War II, and her family fled the Ukraine on the heels of the defeated Wehrmacht in 1943. After the war, Ingrid's family lived in Germany for a couple of years and then emigrated to South America, "to the rain forests of Paraguay," as she wrote in her Web site autobiography. Here she married her first husband and had children. In 1960, Ingrid emigrated first to Canada and then, in 1967, to the USA, where she enrolled in college, eventually earning her Ed.D. degree. She worked in social services, particularly in Special Education and Migrant Education for children. She also spent years on "the rubber-chicken circuit" as an after-dinner speaker to groups as diverse as the American Association of University Women, the Federated Women's Club and the Rotary Club. Ingrid first met Zundel while a guest on his radio talk-show. In January 1995, she became the webmaster of his Zundelsite, which the German authorities have accused of Holocaust denial. Zundel's contribution to ufology consists of his two books, Secret Nazi Polar Expeditions (1978) and Hitler at the South Pole (1979), in which he discussed UFOs, free energy, alien technology, ancient cities hidden under the ice and the possible existence of an Antarctic Reich. (Many thanks to Ingrid Rimland-Zundel, Zebulon Pritchard and William Gordon for these news items.) From the UFO Files... 1954: BOAC AIRLINER SEES A UFO MOTHERSHIP This was one of the strangest and most intensely- debated UFO cases of your editor's childhood. I first came across it in Ray Palmer's old magazine Flying Saucers in the late 1950s, and it's been republished many times since. Here's what happened: On June 29, 1954, at 4:55 p.m., a British Overseas Airway Corp. (BOAC) airliner started her engines at Idlewild Airport (now John F. Kennedy International Airport--J.T.) in Queens, the eastern borough of New York City, preparing for an overnight flight across the Atlantic to London. "Captain James Howard, one of BOAC's most experienced skippers, was in command." The plane was a four propellor-engine Boeing Stratocruiser (a civilian version of the World War II American bomber, the B-29 Superfortress--J.T.), with the call sign Centaurus. The Stratocruiser took off at precisely 5 p.m., heading east along the south shore of Long Island, and then north over Connecticut and Rhode Island. "Dinner had been served on board, and some of the passengers had gone to bed." (Editor's Note: The Stratocruiser had a Pullman-type sleeping area and a "club car" with a bartender where the bomb bays were in a B-29.) "It was at 9:05 p.m. Labrador time that Captain Howard first sighted the UFOs. He observed that there was one big object with six smaller ones in attendance. He pointed them out to his co-pilot, First Officer Lee Boyd, who flew with the famous (RAF) Pathfinder Force during World War II. Lee had already spotted them." "The objects were about 5 miles (8 kilometers) off from the Centaurus, lined out parallel to their own line of flight. A big craft maintained center position while the smaller ones preceded and followed it 'fore and aft.'" "These UFOs stayed parallel with the Centaurus for 80 miles (130 kilometers). From time to time the big object changed shape, or appeared to do so--or possibly, as Captain Howard has suggested, altered its angle of flight, giving the appearance of changing shape, and while this was going on, the smaller objects changed their positions around it." "They checked with Goose Bay (Labrador, Canada) to see if any other formations of fighter aircraft or anything else was in the area, and they were given a negative reply. Goose Bay informed them that they were sending a (Royal Canadian Air Force) fighter up to investigate." "Meanwhile, the big object had changed shape from its original inverted pear shape to what looked like a flying arrow. It seemed to be closing in on them but it didn't. Instead, it changed its appearance again until it resembled a giant telephone receiver the size of an ocean liner." "By this time, in addition to the skipper and Lee Boyd, other members of the crew were observing the objects: George Allen, navigating officer; Douglas Cox, radio officer; Dan Godfrey, engineering officer; and Bill Stewart, the other engineering officer who was also a veteran flyer" with many flight hours logged aboard four- engined AVRO Lancaster bombers in World War II. "Additionally, Daphne Webster, the stewardess (today they're called flight attendants--J.T.) also saw the UFOs and said afterwards: 'I have been flying for two years and have never seen anything like it before.'" "Just before the (RCAF) jet interceptor arrived on the scene, the objects began to disappear. Captain Howard asked what had happened to the smaller ones. According to George Allen, who had been watching them the whole time, 'It looked to me as though they went inside the big one.'" "Captain Howard related that he told the incoming jet pilot over the radio of their gradual disappearance, culminating in the departure of the large object at tremendous speed." "Altogether, a crew of eight, plus fourteen out of his 51 passengers, saw the objects which remained in parallel flight positions with the Centaurus, accompanying them for eighteen minutes over a distance of eighty miles." "Captain Howard wrote in the December 11, 1954 issue of Everybody's Weekly, 'It was a solid thing. I'm sure of that, maneuverable and controlled intelligently--a sort of base (mother) ship linked somehow with those smaller attendant satellites.'" "'There is no rational explanation--except on the basis of space ships and flying saucers. On that basis, it must have been some weird form of space ship from another world.'" "'If so, then another world was watching the Centaurus as it flew over Labrador that night in June (1954)--watching, waiting maybe. For what? One day we shall know and that day, I'm sure, will be pretty important for the human race. I hope I'm here to see it.'" (See the book The Flying Saucer Story by Brinsley Le Poer Trench, Ace Books, Inc., New York, N.Y., 1966, pages 34 to 36.) Well, that's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home- -UFO Roundup." See you next time. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2005 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com Home to UFO Roundup, Encounters With Aliens On This Day, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert Rosales), Filer's Files, UFO News UK and more... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers. If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received the bulletin in error, please write to:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Reynolds From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:59:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:15:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Reynolds >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:05:00 -0700 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:01:07 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? <snip> >>...I take the view of Montaigne: What do I >>know? >But aren't you trying to know? If not, what's the point of being >on this List? <snip> >... I guess what I'm hinting at is that "knowing" takes time and >effort, or as Montaigne also wrote: "To make judgements >about great and high things, a soul of the same stature is needed..."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Re: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 18:31:58 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:17:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:28:11 -0400 >Subject: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell Theory >Source: Steve Bartholomew's Charged Barticle Site >http://chargedbarticle.org/truth_about_roswell.htm >May 3, 2005 >The Truth About Roswell >I don't know if this story is true. All I can say is, it sounds >plausible to me. I got it second hand, and the person who told >me about it has since died. (In a very strange manner, but >that's another story.) >According to my informant, whom I will call Bill, his uncle had >served as a surgeon in the U.S. Army from 1942 until 1952, when >he retired and went into private medical practice. I never >learned Bill's uncle's real name, but I will call him Captain >Malone. That was his rank in 1947, when he was stationed in >Roswell, New Mexico. >Bill himself was told the story many years after the fact, when >Captain Malone was in a nursing home dying of emphysema and >still smoking whenever he had the chance. Bill said his uncle >had never been the same man after events at Roswell. He carried >a load of guilt with him all his life, but he had to tell at >least one person before he died. >I am going to relate this story in the first person, as if I am >Bill talking to my uncle. This is almost word for word the way I >heard it. <snip> >"You may think you know what really happened at Roswell," my >uncle said. He coughed again. >"But you don't. Nobody does, because the Government has done a >really great job of disinformation. Do you know what >disinformation is? It's the same thing a stage magician does, >when he gets the audience to watch his right hand (Nothing up my >sleeve!) when he is actually doing something with his left hand, >or with his foot, or maybe it's his assistant off to one side >who's doing something. >And that's about all that Bill had to tell me. If this story has >upset or offended you, I can only say I hope it's not true. >Personally, I'd prefer to believe in Space Aliens. Don't worry, Bart, your friend Bill is pulling your leg. Sounds like very bad science fiction with content as might be authored by Rich Dolan. Let's have a little contest. I applied some basic logical analysis and found at least six internal inconsistencies
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Re: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:57:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:19:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell On Thursday, August 25, 2005, at 01:28 PM, UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote: >Source: Steve Bartholomew's Charged Barticle Site >http://chargedbarticle.org/truth_about_roswell.htm >May 3, 2005 >The Truth About Roswell >I don't know if this story is true. All I can say is, it sounds >plausible to me. I got it second hand, and the person who told >me about it has since died. (In a very strange manner, but >that's another story.) <snip> What a load of rubbish!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Mystery Of 'Dragons' Over Tibet Solved From: Tliuk4.nul Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:44:08 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:28:31 -0400 Subject: Mystery Of 'Dragons' Over Tibet Solved [Non-Subscriber Post] Your orignial article: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/aug/m09-013.shtml Hi, I just want you guys to know that the mystery of the tibet dragon was solved by me. I posted the satelite images of the exact location on where the photo of the dragon was taken and it turns out to be an icy river, I hope you guys would correct that article , thnx. Heres the links 1. the forum where it was solved: http://www.solid07.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=125793&st=0&#entry2233359 2. images locations: http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a204/tliu8295/tibetdragon.jpg http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a204/tliu8295/tdragon5.jpg http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a204/tliu8295/tdragon4.jpg http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a204/tliu8295/tdragon3.jpg
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Re: Gauche Encounters - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:06:24 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:30:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Gauche Encounters - Velez >From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:14:42 EDT >Subject: Re: Gauche Encounters >>From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 06:06:45 -0400 >>Subject: Gauche Encounters >>Gauche Encounters, Martin Kottmeyer's long unpublished but much >>quoted essay about bad movies and the UFO mythos is now >>available to view on the Talking Pictures website at: >>http://www.talkingpix.co.uk/ArticleGaucheEncounters.html >Wow. What a crackerjack analysis by Kottmeyer. And no pesky >surprises or complicated analysis to chew on, either! >What is this psychological concept called - the belief that >fictional ideas and images absorbed from various media, causing >subsequent nightmares, scars and bruises, are actually true? How >about "Fictophrenia with Contusions"? >What about nightmares of "real" events depicted in the media? I >propose the term "NullusReportusRealia". >The situation where fictional ideas do NOT cause nightmares and >are not reported to a therapist are more problematic. For >example, I wonder how many people who've seen The Wizard of Oz >report nightmares of being pursued by a witch and a monkey army >through the Haunted Forest. Or ordered by a witch to give her >those ruby slippers before the hourglass runs out. We just never >hear of patients saying, "Doc, I keep having these frightening >dreams, night after night, of a witch demanding that I give her >my ruby slippers... Then Auntie Em appears, but she can't hear >me..." These would be cases of "NullusReportusFictia" for which >science probably has no explanation, but need not concern us >here. >As long as a theory addresses 1/3 of the issue while ignoring >other invalidating aspects, it's a good theory. No proof is >required as long as considerable evidence can be piled on the >pet-theory side. >This is similar to the way some police forces operate in certain >countries: If the thief was a man who drove a car, all the >police need to do is find any man driving any car, and they have >their culprit. This has worked quite well in a number of >countries, and there's never been a need to obtain additional >evidence of culpability or bother with a trial. >I congratulate Kottmeyer on finding the culprit causing the >abduction reports, and identifying these victims of Fictophrenia >with Contusions. >Investigating people with NullusReportusRealia and >NullusReportusFictia would be a waste of time since no one knows >who they are, and no psychological trauma has been reported. Hi Dave, Somebody once asked Mel Brooks to tell him the difference between comedy and tragedy. Brooks responded, "A tragedy is when I get a tiny pin-prick on the end of my finger. Comedy is when an old lady falls into an open man-hole. So the answer is simple, if it happens to me, it's tragedy, if it happens to somebody else, it's comedy!" As with so many funny things, the more tragic the truth is that it is based on, the _funnier_ it can be. So many of the 'theories' that people have come up with to explain away abduction reports are weirder (almost) than what we are reporting! Good response, Dave. Well said... and funny.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:26:36 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:43:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood - White >From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:05:10 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood <snip> >Publicizing the results of this work is currently not in the >best interest of science; I would think that if genuine, unbiased science is being done, publicizing every single step of the process would have
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Re: An Open Question To The List - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:39:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:44:06 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - White >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:54:58 -1000 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List <snip> >>You have not established that these allegations are anything but >>bunk. I established that Lazar didn't go to MIT or Cal >>Tech..That MWKruvant didn't obtain any of the degrees he
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Friedman From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:05:28 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:46:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Friedman >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:05:00 -0700 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Rich Reynolds <rrrgroup.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:01:07 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:49:21 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>I'll tell you one thing you can know for sure: the alien autopsy >>>is real footage of a real creature who crashed in a dry lake bed >>>about 10 miles SW of Socorro on May 31st, 1947. Until >>>'ufologists' figure that out, you and them will continue to not >>>"know anything for sure...". >>It's your certitude that makes me envious. You don't doubt >>certain things. >>I, on the other hand, take the view of Montaigne: What do I >>know? >Rich, >But aren't you trying to know? If not, what's the point of being >on this List? >The reason that I'm certain of the AA film is that for the last >ten years I've studied its detail, from every possible angle. >I've searched for and found the crash site described by the >cameraman and had material from this site scientifically >analyzed. I've collaborated with other interested folks, and >discussed the subject until the cows came home. So yes, I'm >quite sure that Ray Santilli and the cameraman are telling the >truth about the AA, and that it is footage of a real event. >I theorize that the creature is a monotreme by comparing the >visible features of the creature with a general description of >monotremes. My theory that UFO are from an earth-evolved >civilization resulted from closely examining the AA debris and >realizing that the craft couldn't have been a starship. I've >also studied the similarity between the script found on the I- >beams and the writing from ancient texts. I guess what I'm >hinting at is that "knowing" takes time and effort, or as >Montaigne also wrote: "To make judgements about great and high >things, a soul of the same stature is needed..." I think there are enough reports opf truly huge space carriers so as to suggest that they are the star ships whereas the much smaller earth excursion modules run around in the atmosphere but get home on the carriers..... Think of high performance navy jets based on huge aircraft carriers..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Re: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell From: Robert Gates <rgates8254.nul> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:54:31 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 11:49:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Sent: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:28:11 -0400 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell Theory >Source: Steve Bartholomew's Charged Barticle Site >http://chargedbarticle.org/truth_about_roswell.htm >May 3, 2005 >The Truth About Roswell >I don't know if this story is true. All I can say is, it sounds >plausible to me. I got it second hand, and the person who told >me about it has since died. (In a very strange manner, but >that's another story.) >According to my informant, whom I will call Bill, his uncle had >served as a surgeon in the U.S. Army from 1942 until 1952, when >he retired and went into private medical practice. I never >learned Bill's uncle's real name, but I will call him Captain >Malone. That was his rank in 1947, when he was stationed in >Roswell, New Mexico. Listers, In essence we have a story that is admittedly second and even third hand. To top it off, the dude who unloaded the story to this guy is now dead, so nobody actually knows what the dead guy knows, or can it be independently verified. <snip> >"I was attached to General LeMay's SAC bomber squadron at >Roswell, the only nuclear strike force in the World at the time. >On July 2, 1947, I had just got back from a long training >flight. As flight surgeon, I was supposed to monitor the crew's >vital signs and make sure they were in good health. I was also >supposed to watch out for possible radiation exposure. In other >words, there wasn't a hell of a lot to do on those flights. They >were long, boring, and usually exhausting. Ah, another jewel encrusted helmet. LeMay wasn't in command of SAC at this point. As I recall he was over Air Material Command until later >"Now, there are generally speaking two divergent viewpoints >about the incidents at Roswell. There is the Right Wing and the >Left Wing. The Right Wingers believe everything the official >stories tell them, no matter how many times the stories change. >It was all a hoax or a mistake, or some kind of helium balloon >and so on. >"The Left Wingers all think the Government is flat-out lying, >and it was a flying saucer that crashed in the desert, maybe two >or three of them. Gotta be Aliens from outer space, or why all >the secrecy? Political BS injected above. <snip> >"Do you remember that movie, Alien Autopsy? It was on Fox TV a >few years ago. Big news story for awhile. It was being promoted >by that Brit producer, Santilli, who claimed he got the film >from a former Army photographer. It was supposed to be a >documentary of an autopsy of a space alien, one of the Roswell >crash victims. I believe UFO mag is running an expose on the so called Alien Autopsy..... <snip> >"You may recall the film showing wreckage parts. There was the >'I' beam, clearly stamped "VIDEO TV." And the metal plates >designed to fit six fingered hands. They were not control >devices, they didn't have any switches attached. Their only >function was to contact the volunteer's hands, so they could >read data like temperature, pulse rate and skin resistance. If >the volunteer failed to touch the plates on command, it would >mean either he was no longer conscious, or the equipment had >failed. In which case the gondola would be automatically >released and flown down. Wasn't this the hoax tent footage? <snip> >My uncle stared off into the distance. By now he was out of >breath. I too am out of breath... that another third hand tale that can't be verified has floated to the surface... yet again another jewel encrusted helmet.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Re: Richard Hall Resigns From FUFOR - Burke From: John Burke <isunburn.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:00:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Richard Hall Resigns From FUFOR - Burke >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:39:59 +0000 >Subject: Richard Hall Resigns From FUFOR >I propose an annual award for the most gullible ufoologist of >the year. Lots of candidates out there ready to believe totally >fabricated stories. Perhaps this award might be a statue of a Falcon and a Condor
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Strange Lights Over Thomasville From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:26:49 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:26:49 -0400 Subject: Strange Lights Over Thomasville Source: The Thomasville Times - Thomasville, Alabama http://tinyurl.com/8fact August 26, 2005 Strange Lights Over Thomasville By Arthur McLean Editor Alex Cassity of Midway is a God-fearing man, so when he saw strange lights in the sky over his home Thursday his first thought was it was the second-coming. Cassity�s second thought was that it might be a military test. "It was really something," he said. "but my first thought was, the Lord�s coming," he laughed. What Cassity saw were bright lights in the sky, falling to earth. He and his wife had returned home from playing Dominoes with family. After they parked the car, Cassity said he saw a single bright light high above in the sky. "It was a clear sky, and I told my wife to look up," he said. The couple saw two more lights appear and then a series of four lights appear in quick succession. "Boom, boom, boom," he said, "they looked like four-pointed stars." "The flare itself was a golden illumination, and it was quite large and well up in the sky." Jean Hutto also saw the lights from her home just south of Thomasville, further to the east. "The looked like fireworks falling to the ground," she said. "I called and asked my daughter if they were shooting fireworks, and she thought I was crazy, but I know what I saw." Hutto said she heard airplanes circling overhead and had heard them for several nights. No one is claiming they saw a UFO, however. Cassity�s explanation that the lights were flares from a military airplane are probably the most likely explanation. Military jets can be heard flying over Clarke County, and military aircraft use bright flares as a countermeasure against heat-seeking missles. During training, it is possible that a military aircraft may have launched the flares during an exercise Thursday night. Maxwell-Gunter Air Force Base in Selma does not operate jets and officials with Columbus Air Force Base were not available for comment on the flare phenomena. Another possible explanation would be the Leonid meteor showers, which light up the night sky during this time of year, but the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Filers Files #35 - 2005 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:13:57 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:48:43 -0400 Subject: Filers Files #35 - 2005 Filer's Files #35 =96 2005, George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International August 25, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com More UFO Photos This week's files cover: Astronaut Edgar Mitchell claims ET is here, UFO at Chicago Air Show, and Alien Rock: The Rock 'N' Roll ET Connection UFOs were seen over Alabama, Arizona, California, Ohio, and Washington. Sightings were also reported in Canada, Cuba, Mexico, and the United Kingdom. The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world and in space. Many people claim it is impossible for UFOs to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep an open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate each week. I personally chased a UFO over England while in the Air Force and know something strange is in our skies. FATE Magazine 2005 UFO Special lists the 100 Most Influential People in Ufology Today. George Filer, East Coast director of MUFON, is the man behind "Filer's Files," a weekly roundup of UFO reports from around the world. "Filer's Files" appears in the MUFON UFO Journal as well as on the Internet and is required reading for anyone interested in the subject. He is a regular guest on Sightings with Jeff Rense. UFOs and NASA FATE Magazine - Rob Simone writes, "One of the primary goals of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) is to discover new life in the universe." From the many images captured by their cameras and the growing testimony of their astronauts, it seems intelligent life has been discovered and is trying to discover us. Mitchell's Testimony Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 astronaut, was the sixth man to walk on the Moon. He has spoken out on the subject of UFOs and how the extraterrestrial issue is handled in some circles of the government: I have met with credible professionals within two governments who have testified to their own firsthand experiences with close encounters. They include members of military intelligence and government whose official duties involved the extraterrestrial presence. As is expected, they were all bound by strict security oath agreements which prevented them from disclosing any of this. Mitchell has also stated that military personnel with whom he has spoken have seen actual alien bodies in the course of their duties. Dr. Mitchell appeared as a guest on my talk show recently and I asked him about the continuing coverup, conspiracy, and truth embargo related to the UFO phenomenon. He had this to say: There has been, as we both know, considerable effort within most governments to suppress this information and to limit what is being said about it. Let's hope that it's coming to an end. Thanks to Fate Magazine Aug 2005 Editor's Note: Edgar told me essentially the same thing privately when we were part of a Disclosure Project Television show. He said other astronauts had seen UFOs and evidence of alien life. When James Lovell on board Apollo 8 command module came out from behind the dark side of the moon and said for everyone to hear, "We have been informed that Santa Claus does exist!" Obviously there is a hidden meaning in those words that are not difficult to decipher. He also told me to read the Dead Sea Scrolls that they explained what was going on. I said, "Do you mean the Sons of Darkness fighting the Sons of Light? He smiled and shook his head. While he was on the moon many photos had unusual lights in the background that NASA explained as reflections of light on the camera lens, but lights moved? Quietly Star Wars is being built The largest and most expensive weapons program in the US defense budget costing 8.5 Billion dollars is the National Missile Defense (NMD) program. It is designed to develop and deploy an operationally effective weapons system to protect the United States against limited ballistic missile threats, including accidental or unauthorized launches or Third World threats. The so called Star Wars program may also be designed to be used against UFOs? The primary mission of National Missile Defense is to defend all 50 states of the United States against a threat of a limited strategic ballistic missile attack from a rogue nation. Such a system would also provide some capability against a small accidental or unauthorized launch of strategic ballistic missiles from more nuclear capable states. Part of the new missile defense system is being constructed at Fort Greely, Alaska. Global space dominance is coming a reality. The country that dominates space will likely dominate the world. Triangles reported in England and in Oregon William Puckett UFOs Northwest writes, "I post the reports myself and it takes a lot of time particularly with graphics and pictures. I have about 20 reports that I haven't had a chance to post since there has been a lot of activity in England and in Oregon. Many people are sighting the large silent triangles. Thanks to William Puckett UFOs Northwest Alien Rock: The Rock 'N' Roll ET Connection Mike Luckman writes, "I've asked my publisher, Simon and Schuster, to send you a copy of my breakthrough new book, "ALIEN ROCK: THE ROCK 'N' ROLL EXTRATERRESTRIAL CONNECTION" (VH1/Pocket Books), which covers the 50-year plus link between Elvis, the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, David Bowie, Jimi Hendrix and other rock icons with alien intelligences. One chapter is devoted to UFO abductions of prominent rock stars including Jerry Garcia of the Grateful Dead, Rick Wakeman of Yes, Dave Davies of the Kinks, Sammy Hagar of Van Halen, Cat Stevens, Nina Hagen and Phoebe Snow. Rock star Michael Jackson wants to build a space port in the Arizona desert for the aliens to land. The New York Post called "ALIEN ROCK" required reading. VH1 said that "ALIEN ROCK" is "the most unusual book on rock 'n' roll ever published." I've been getting a terrific amount of mileage on the book from the media. I would appreciate it if you would please run one or more stories on it in your Filer's Files. Because of the big names involved, I'm convinced that "Alien Rock" could serve as the impetus for a worldwide UFO movement with rock stars in the vanguard. That's why I'm organizing the Signal to Space concerts that hopefully will begin next summer. The concerts will beam a musical message of peace to the Moon, Mars and other targets in our solar system and beyond in the hope of receiving a response from extraterrestrials. International superstars will perform. The concerts are planned for Berlin, New York, Tokyo and possibly West Africa. Thanks to Mike Luckman (212) 995-0384 e-mail: nebula2002.nul Air Force Thunderbirds have accident More than 2 million people attended the Chicago Air and Water Show and some spectators claim they saw a UFO just prior to the Air Force Thunderbirds precision flying team F-16 fighter jets touch during their flight on Saturday, August 20, 2005. The mishap sent a missile rail from one of the aircraft plunging into Lake Michigan about 2,500 feet from spectators on the North Avenue Beach. The shaken Thunderbirds canceled their aerial performance only fifteen minutes into their 45 minute routine. Nobody was hurt, and the six Thunderbird aircraft safely returned to the Gary Jet Center. The show for Sunday was also canceled. The falling missile rail is shown in the photo strangely appears as a cylinder shaped object that may have been mistaken for the UFO. High-speed choreographed stunts that bring wings as close as 18 inches apart are inherently dangerous, particularly when UFOs show up to observe. The 4-foot-long missile rail (Circled)appears much larger in the photo. A similar air show in the Ukraine interrupted by a UFO caused the deaths of over a hundred spectators. Also, a UFO penetrated a group of World War II fighters over Goodwood, England on September 6, 2003. Alabama aircraft observes chrome ball HUNTSVILLE =96 The witness was flying home with a business associate in his private plane on August 19, 2005. He is a pilot, so he was at the controls on a four person Piper Aircraft at 6:10 PM, when I was looking out the window towards the ground and noticed below us a chrome ball, or maybe a Mylar balloon? It basically looked sort of chrome in color and round. It was 500 to 1000 feet away because we had recently had a plane pass under us and the pilot said he was about 1000 feet below us. It began to move up and sort of toward us. The pilot did not see this, and I did not mention it to him since I was embarrassed. We would have passed by it, if it was a slow rising balloon. It didn't act like a balloon anyway. It was rising slow at first, but within maybe 3-6 seconds or so, it rose up to the same altitude as our plane, and then moved sideways as if it were parallel with us. It then moved in the opposite direction we were flying. I had to turn my head backward to watch it move by through the back seat area glass. It moved by us, and then shot up really fast and vanished. Basically within about 10 seconds or so from the moment I saw it, it rose up to our level, was about 100 feet away (when at our level), moved sideways (like going the opposite direction as us), then swooped upwards (a lot faster than it was moving before) and vanished. I was a little scared and asked our position. He stated we were above Huntsville, Alabama at 6000 feet. I'd say it was maybe 5 to 20 feet in diameter??? Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO RESEARCH http://www.hbccufo.org Arizona photo plus bright flashing object PHOENIX -- The witness was going through some tape that he took on July 31,= 2005, at 2:41 PM, with his girlfriend. They were facing east when they saw= an object traveling southeast towards Sky Harbor. The witness reports, "It= was moving quite quickly and was pulsing or flashing a silver flash as I= taped the object for several minutes. "It appeared to morph into a more= cloudy mass until it completely disappeared in the cloud it was heading to.= to." Thanks to Mike c.2005 M. Di Silvestro . Two Unusual Bright Flashing Objects. To view video footage: http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D3013 PINETOP -- William Puckett writes, "I received this photo from a friend, yesterday, who knows the movie producer that took the photo back in July 2, 1985." The photographer did not see the object until the film was developed. This photo bears some resemblance to the photo of an object taken at Oak Harbor. See story below in Washington. The object in this photo does not fit any conventional objects. I doubt if this photo was hoaxed or digitally doctored given that it was taken in 1985 .Thanks to http://www.ufosnw.com California UFOs continue ORANGE COUNTY =96 At 9:45 PM, a family of four was out on their patio and saw a bright yellow circular light on August 13, 2005. It was an overcast night and the parents noticed a bright light as it faded in and out and then saw two other objects appear and crisscross each other. These also disappeared while the main one pulsed. They then reappeared on the other side of the horizon and zigzagged again in a V shape. The Mother states, "During this time my two kids came out to see what was happening, and they saw the lights appear and disappear in another part of the sky with the V shape in downward zigzag before they faded across the horizon. " They flew at speeds that is unmatched by our planes. The main light seemed to melt slightly down and then up as it pulsed. The family witnessed this event for ten to fifteen minutes. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO RESEARCH http://www.hbccufo.org MODESTO -- Steven Rauchman states, " I am writing about the striking image of the multi-light cylinder-shaped craft reported in your newsletter #30 by R. David Anderson. The craft appears identical to one photographed over France in 1990. In addition to the cylinder shape, notable are the two rows of lights, or spheres, on opposing sides of the cylinder, and their number. The French photo clearly shows 14 on each side. The Anderson photo shows the identical number of lights/spheres, although the ones in the middle are either "off" or not visible, for whatever technical reasons. Wouldn't it be a boon to Ufology, if all the major collectors of images were to share a common database? A traveling collection of UFO photographs and films (as works of art) would be an enormous commercial draw worldwide. Here is the link: http://www.ufoevidence.org/photographs/section/1990s/Photo278.htm Thanks to Steven Rauchman, Toronto MODESTO -- Between 9:30 and 10 PM,on August 18, 2005, R. David Anderson observed many jet planes circling around the area. I took several pictures towards the areas where the planes were circling. Toward the West, as the jets were circling, I noticed another object moving away in a Southerly direction. This did not appear to be a plane. It was a white spheroid ( although in the picture it does appear to be a bit more triangular ). The jets were out at a wider radius from this UFO, and therefore were not in the photo. These jets were circling the object for over two minutes. I did get a picture of the jets in another picture. I have not included this however. Thanks to R. David Anderson SONORA =96 Dr. Mark Olsen writes, "Another triangular object appeared over Sonora on August 16, 2005." The object was spotted by my brother's girlfriend and she asked us what it was. When we looked at it, it appeared to be an object with two lights like a barbell moving to our right, towards the south. The object was to our Northeast beyond and just above the tree line. When I began recording the object on my Sony Handicam, the object actually had three lights in what looked like a triangular formation. I recorded the object until losing it behind a tree and the building next door. Thanks to Dr. Mark Olsen Idaho object with circular blinking lights PRIEST RIVER -- A couple of witnesses report seeing a small object with circular blinking lights almost every night. The lights are usually red, white and blue, although sometimes it blinks only one color. The lights get intensely brighter when the witness is very near and it looks saucer shaped. I also see random white lights near it, slowly moving across the sky, that suddenly take off at amazing speed. The witness claims she sees objects regularly, and all I have to do is scan the area around me for a while and I eventually see one trying to hide behind a tree. Sometimes it's in plain view, but slowly works its way behind a tree. I thought I was going crazy until my fianc=E9 finally started to notice them. He was absolutely floored the other night when we spotted it partially behind a tree and extremely low. My fianc=E9 said as soon as I walked out the door, the object quickly darted to the other side of the tree blinking more rapidly. It moved towards the shop and he said it looked like a little saucer with lights blinking around it. He was amazed. They seem to follow my every move. I have shown only a few people and they also confirm I am not crazy. It's really starting to freak me out. I am obsessed with finding out what this is and why it follows and watches me. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO RESEARCH http://www.hbccufo.org Ohio George Ritter's Photos FOSTORIA =96 George Ritter took video of a UFO on August 10, 2005, that is being investigated. Peter Michel writes, "I'll leave the analysis to you and others however, I used a variety of filters and adjustments to bring about these results." My main concern is that I could probably make a bird or a bug look like a typical UFO shape using Photoshop so to make sure we are not fooling ourselves, please send me a few known images of bugs and birds so I can apply the same process. If I get the same results, we know we are "creating" UFOs with Photoshop. If I cannot recreate the saucer or disc shapes, then there may be something more to the images. The original is on top, bas relief is the second, emboss is third, and grad-thre is fourth. Thanks to Peter Michel. Lens-artifact-wing: appears to be a lens artifact "wing" - I used an artistic filter to bring this out. Editor's Note: Investigation of the videos taken almost daily by George Ritter continues. The videos frequently do show birds and insects in addition to the apparent UFOs. Washington woman snaps photo of UFO OAK HARBOR -- William Puckett writes, "The object was captured in a digital photograph on May 14, 2005, at 1:18 PM (object is fuzzy). It appears to be about 400 feet above a barge being towed on the Puget sound, about 3 miles off the Western shore of Whidbey Island Naval Air Station, Whidbey Island, about 35 miles northwest of Seattle. The camera was pointed about 280 degrees magnetic from my front yard about 180 feet above sea level. Camera info: Pentax Optio 30, image is 2048 x 1536 pixels. I only see what appears to be a V shape in the side facing the camera, if it's only a cloud, it's an unusual one. When I took the picture, I did NOT see the object. I only noticed it when I was browsing through my pictures. Investigator's Notes: When I first looked at the photo that the witness sent I thought that perhaps the blurry image (time exposure) could be an airplane. After looking at the photo the "plane explanation" doesn't fit. (There is no evidence of a fuselage and wings.) The object is blurred which means that it was moving fast. I also don't think that the object was a bird or a cloud. The unknown fact is we don't know how far away the object was because of lack of reference points. The object appears metallic, disk shaped, and has a protrusion coming out of the top. Thanks to William Puckett UFOs Northwest Web: http://www.ufosnw.com ANACORTES =96 The witnesses were taking the Washington State Ferry from Sidney BC. on July 22, 2005, at 1 PM, when they observed a Silver sphere with a silver flange horizontally around it. My wife Sara and my cousin Jerry and his wife Linda accompanied me on a sunny day with no clouds when we saw the stationary craft above the hilltops of one of the islands. It was about 20-30 feet in diameter. We were about of the way to Anacortes when we observed the object to the north of us. It appeared to be two or three miles away. Thanks to Brian Vike http://www.hbccufo.org Wisconsin three strange objects FREDERIC -- My wife put the camcorder on the deck and propped it up with a towel on August 13, 2005, because we were having so much activity that we were bound to catch something on film. I personally saw three different types of craft that day with my binoculars. HBCC UFO Research Note: Brian Vike writes, "It appears that things have not settled down for this Wisconsin family. There is something of interest in the video footage sent. Footage and photos are c. S.R.L. 2005. To view video clip: http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D3010 Australia numerous sightings... Lilly writes, "This was on our TV on July 25, 2005, Glenn Connley stated, "Are we alone? Are we alone?" For the first time the accounts of people who believe there is something else out there are being made public. Dominic McNarmara was an electrical engineer and head of the Australian UFO Research Centre. He spent several years unlocking hundreds of restricted files from the government's top secret national archives, detailing UFO sightings from outback drunks to military personnel. According to the unlocked files, Woomera, in outback South Australia, had the highest rate of UFO sightings of anywhere in the world. There were even some people who said they had been beamed up and taken aboard friendly flying saucers. Woomera is an isolated, restricted government-owned military region where the Australian Department of Defence had tested its aircraft, weaponry and rockets for decades. As the military watched the skies they saw a lot more than their own planes. Now found and declassified, secrets are revealed, like the night the air force tested a plane called the Canberra. "Both people gave their reports. This object descended, came across the flight path of the Canberra, matched its speed, tracked with it, and departed at a speed over 3600 miles an hour," Mr. McNamara said. "In the early 1950s that just wasn't possible," he added. Mr. McNamara said there was little doubt many of the 1800 files were hidden or made difficult to find. Thanks to Australian UFO Research Network: www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn Canada more photos and sightings WESTERN OSHAWA, ONTARIO =96 The witness states, "I would like to report a UFO sighting that was extremely close to my position, they don't get much closer than this!" I was sky watching on Saturday night August 13, 2005, when I saw an amazing roundish, white star flashing ever so slightly, flying along north of my position. Here's the kicker, this object was very low, between 100 to 150 feet above the ground and maybe as close as 100-200 feet away. The speed of the object was around 80-100 mph and flashing with a star's whitish blue intensity. It was two to five feet in diameter and its flight path was east to west, towards Whitby. It did have an ever so slight, up and down waving movement. I had only a window of about 3-4 seconds to view this star-like object. I recorded the time at exactly 11:26 PM, EST. How much closer will "they" get? Thanks to Brian Vike DRYDEN, ONTARIO -- On August 1, 2005 about 2:50 AM, the witness awoke as he could not sleep and walked out on to the deck on a gorgeous night, and spotted two lit up discs above his housing subdivision. He jumped out of his chair and states, "They started to move south slowly across the sky. The one on the left moved sideways and then back again." They made no noise as they slowly continued moving south towards the yacht club docks. Then they flew out of my view after 40 seconds. They were about two or three thousand feet off the ground, I still can't believe it myself since that night I have been reading like crazy on UFO sightings. Thanks to Brian Vike West Vancouver to Coquitlam, B.C.-- Just after sunset, the sky was still quite light towards the west August 20, 2005, at 8:57 PM, when my wife asked, "What the heck is that; its moving?" I looked over to the Cyprus Bowl in West Vancouver. I could see was what appeared to be a dark gray contrail hanging in the sky and extending about half a mile to the south. She kept saying, look, look, I watched it more closely then realized she was right. It was moving at a very high speed for a cloud. I took a look through my binoculars but it still just appeared to be a dark gray contrail. In less than a minute, it traveled east from over Cyprus Bowl to Heritage Mountain maintaining its shape, and not spreading out like most contrails do, when being blown by the wind. I noticed the other clouds north of the mountains were moving west, not west to east. When it got over Heritage Mountain it just faded away. I've never seen clouds do that. Seconds later a very large spectacular meteorite or fireball appeared in the sky over our building going north towards Heritage Mountain, before apparently burning out at the same spot where we last saw the contrail. It was much slower than normal meteorites. That was the same thing she used to see in the skies over Fiji. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO RESEARCH http://www.hbccufo.org RICHMOND, BRITISH COLUMBIA =96 Three witnesses on August 12, 2005, saw a dull yellow oval shaped object at 10:45 p.m. It flew slower than a shooting star and quicker than a small airplane. We saw it for about 7-10 seconds and then it disappeared towards the North Star. It seemed to have a headlight that illuminated itself. It was distinctly oval and unique. We all agreed at the same time that what we were looking at was a UFO. Thanks to Brian Vike FLEMINGTON PARK, TORONTO -- Agnes Sroczynski writes, "In the past two weeks, I have seen the same white light with small alternating red lights hovering in the sky, both over my house in Scarborough, and over Flemington Park". It usually arrives around 10 PM and sticks around well into the night, and appears to be the size of a personal vehicle, like a car or a stealth bomber. I've seen it as low as 11 story's off the ground, to so high up that it can almost be mistaken for a star. With binoculars it's possible to observe the red lights even when it is very high up. The last time I saw it was last night. My father saw it as well. My 35 mm camera went missing about a month ago, and I've been unable to take pictures, to my great disappointment. Thanks to Agnes Sroczynski TORONTO'S CHERRY BEACH -- Paul Shields writes, "Here is a picture taken after 6:30 pm on Friday August 5, 2005, on Cherry Beach, facing south towards the United States." I was fortunate to have my camera along to catch this one. I was attracted by the intensity of light just above Lake Ontario. The darker object is above and to the left of the bright light. There does appear to be a dark =91disc' shaped object, that in scale of size is just as big as the boat! Now after viewing this photo, what could be the craft's agenda with the sailboat? Could this picture have captured a possible abduction in progress, out 2-3 miles away from shore, in broad daylight?" I'll leave that with the reader to ponder, as I have seen enough to know. Paul reports, "My Father had a major heart attack on Aug.17,2005. His name is Angelo Shishis and he will soon cross over. I will miss him, when he leaves as I know he will watch over me and my Mother." Thanks to Paul Shields. Editor's Note: We'll pray for your Dad. Cuba red ball hovering over the bay SANTIAGO DE CUBA -- A friend and I were in Cuba looking out over the bay near Santiago de Cuba on November 15, 2000. We were in deck chairs and it was quite late at night around 11:15 PM.. We noticed a red light hovering over the bay and being that there was no point of reference, I could only guess at its size. I would say it was about two feet in diameter and maybe about 300 feet away? It was quite difficult to see sometimes and we would lose sight of it. It was there for close to thirty minutes. It was like the light you see from a laser pointer except in 3D. There isn't much south of us in the Caribbean sea except for Jamaica, and this certainly wasn't a boat as we would've seen other lights. We're 99% sure that this was a UFO and I've noticed more 'red balls' floating here and there over fields. Thanks to Brian Vike Mexico: UFO photographed MEXICO CITY -- We have received the following information from Prof. Ana Luisa Cid in Mexico. "Photo taken to the north of Mexico City by Gerardo Nieto Cid, 14, son of researcher Ana Luisa Cid. This photo was taken on August 17, 2005 at 11:51 hours with a 4 megapixel digital camera. "The strange structure was not visible to onlookers until the photos were checked on a computer. The original is preserved on a Kodak Digital Film 64 MB memory stick, along with the complete sequence of images taken that day. Thanks to Ana Luisa Cid. Translation (c) 2005. Scott Corrales, IHU. P.S. Just for you, I will mention, that Marduk is visible over Toronto for about two weeks now. Look for the huge orange-red star that appears as a cross through clouds. And now, please, recall that this has been discussed by the most reliable paranormal outlets, plus in the Book of Enoch and other ancient texts. UK an unusual flashing light DUNWICH, SUFFOLK =96 Three witnesses were watching satellites go over on a clear night August 5, 2005. They noticed jet planes and a separate bright flashing light tracking across the sky, west to east at first, flashing at non regular intervals of 1-4 seconds. I mistook it for a plane initially, but it was brighter than any star or satellite by about 5 times, and larger than any other visible body by about 5-10 times. It appeared to be at a very high altitude and we heard no noise. It was not a plane, as there were no other navigation lights, and it was much brighter/larger emission of light than any plane we had seen that evening. It only grabbed my attention when it shifted course several times, and appeared on a different heading with each flash. It exited our view 30 seconds later heading northeast. It was clearly visible and then disappeared. I have no idea what it was, but it did not behave like anything I have ever seen and I have spent quite a few nights watching stars and satellites track across the sky. Thanks to Brian vike Donate to Filer's Files to receive CD So you won't miss a single breaking news story or the increased evidence for UFO and life in the universe. Help solve the mysteries of the universe. We have been bringing you the latest in UFO news since 1995, on radio, television and the Internet. Your dollars do make a difference! We appreciate our loyal subscribers participation but we need everyone's help not just a few. Annual Membership is only $25 for 52 weekly intelligence reports. Don't miss the latest images of UFOs from Earth and Mars. Subscribe today and receive a free UFO Photo CD. Be sure to ask for the CD, Send check or money order to: George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055. You can also go to: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for majorstar.nul You may use Paypal, Visa, American Express, or Master Charge. REAL ESTATE Relocation Help! Get your free report and learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent to help you relocate, buy or sell a home. To get a free copy of this report e-mail me at: Majorstar.nul MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Re: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:22:03 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:54:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Date: Thursday, August 25, 2005 7:28 PM >Subject: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell Theory >Source: Steve Bartholomew's Charged Barticle Site >http://chargedbarticle.org/truth_about_roswell.htm >May 3, 2005 >The Truth About Roswell >I don't know if this story is true. All I can say is, it sounds >plausible to me. I got it second hand, and the person who told >me about it has since died. (In a very strange manner, but >that's another story.) To the List Unfortunately, the author, Bart, tells us that his informant is dead. And all documentation has been destroyed. Very convenient. By a strange coincidence, his story is dated May 3, less than two months before Nick Redfern's book, and it appears here some two months after the book. And, big surprise, it "reveals" almost the same story! However, it carries all the problems already exposed since the end of June on this list. >According to my informant, whom I will call Bill, his uncle had >served as a surgeon in the U.S. Army from 1942 until 1952, when >he retired and went into private medical practice. I never >learned Bill's uncle's real name, but I will call him Captain >Malone. That was his rank in 1947, when he was stationed in >Roswell, New Mexico. >Bill himself was told the story many years after the fact, when >Captain Malone was in a nursing home dying of emphysema and >still smoking whenever he had the chance. Bill said his uncle >had never been the same man after events at Roswell. He carried >a load of guilt with him all his life, but he had to tell at >least one person before he died. >I am going to relate this story in the first person, as if I am >Bill talking to my uncle. This is almost word for word the way I >heard it. >"You may think you know what really happened at Roswell," my >uncle said. He coughed again. >"But you don't. Nobody does, because the Government has done a >really great job of disinformation. Do you know what >disinformation is? It's the same thing a stage magician does, >when he gets the audience to watch his right hand (Nothing up my >sleeve!) when he is actually doing something with his left hand, >or with his foot, or maybe it's his assistant off to one side >who's doing something. When an anonymous informer begins to spin a strange tale and warns about the risk of disinformation, I always ask myself: who is disinforming? Especially when the story aims at demolishing Roswell. In my opinion, it does not take long to have the answer. Apart from all the critiques already made on the Redfern's story, let's try some more remarks here. >"I was attached to General LeMay's SAC bomber squadron at >Roswell, the only nuclear strike force in the World at the time. >On July 2, 1947, I had just got back from a long training >flight. As flight surgeon, I was supposed to monitor the crew's >vital signs and make sure they were in good health. I was also >supposed to watch out for possible radiation exposure. In other >words, there wasn't a hell of a lot to do on those flights. They >were long, boring, and usually exhausting. Why did he have to check the crews for radiation exposure? I thought it was well known that bombers, at least at that time, did not carry real atomic bombs for training flights. >"When we landyed at Roswell, I heard something was up. There >was word about some kind of accident, and I was asked to remain >on standby rather than leave the base. I didn't find that >strange, since that sort of thing happens all the time in the >Service. But next day, all Hell broke loose. Strange. I thought that the Roswell incident was kept very carefully under wraps on the base. >"Now, there are generally speaking two divergent viewpoints >about the incidents at Roswell. There is the Right Wing and the >Left Wing. The Right Wingers believe everything the official >stories tell them, no matter how many times the stories change. >It was all a hoax or a mistake, or some kind of helium balloon >and so on. >"The Left Wingers all think the Government is flat-out lying, >and it was a flying saucer that crashed in the desert, maybe two >or three of them. Gotta be Aliens from outer space, or why all >the secrecy? >"It never seems to occur to anyone that maybe the Left Wing and >the Right Wing are both wrong." <snip> That's a very schematic way of presenting the Roswell debate, to say the least. "Do you remember that movie, Alien Autopsy? It was on Fox TV a few years ago. Big news story for awhile. It was being promoted by that Brit producer, Santilli, who claimed he got the film from a former Army photographer. It was supposed to be a documentary of an autopsy of a space alien, one of the Roswell crash victims. >"But it doesn't have anything to do with space aliens." Here we go again with the Alien Autopsy! He was a poor handicapped fellow, subjected to horrible experiments! Not a Japanese, though. Apparently, the Japanese angle has been dropped this time. That's a good improvement of the Redfern's story. His belly button had been removed to place an implant. The weird organ inside was a sponge carrying a drug, or maybe it was a tumor. Who knows? And, of course, he had contact lense implants against UV. For the rest of the tale, let's just pick up a few more preposterous items in the story. Now, we have the mad Nazi doctors first in line, together with the Nazi rocket scientists, to resume their horrible medical experiments made in the concentration camps. It was the time of the Nuremberg trials, but never mind, lets'keep doing that, in White Sands. Arnold did not see flying saucers, but a squadron of super neo- Nazi secret planes. At Roswell, Major Marcel "was not in the loop". He was just the security officer of the base. No need to inform him, really. Marcel decided alone the press release. No need to ask Colonel Blanchard, who in turn went on vacation two hours after. The anonymous witness, as a doctor, was in the loop. He saw the bodies (who looked like the one in the Alien Autopsy movie) and the craft, a kind of flying wing. Poor Major Marcel knew nothing. So, he thought he had found a flying saucer. But it was a high altitude gondola piloted by remote control! The alien crash story was secretly encouraged as a cover-up, together with the release of the Alien Autopsy. Better have people believe in such a story than learning the "horrible truth" of Nazi experiments in White Sands, back in 1947.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Re: Richard Hall Resigns From FUFOR - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:14:20 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:56:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Richard Hall Resigns From FUFOR - Hall >From: John Burke <isunburn.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:01:34 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Richard Hall Resigns From FUFOR >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:39:59 +0000 >>Subject: Richard Hall Resigns From FUFOR >>I propose an annual award for the most gullible ufoologist of >>the year. Lots of candidates out there ready to believe totally >>fabricated stories. >Perhaps this award might be a statue of a Falcon and a Condor >perched upon a scoop of strawberry ice cream. Excellent suggestion. In the column I used to do for UFO Magazine (U.S.) I used to give out the Horse's Patooty Award, a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Re: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:19:05 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:57:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell >Source: Steve Bartholomew's Charged Barticle Site >http://chargedbarticle.org/truth_about_roswell.htm >May 3, 2005 >The Truth About Roswell >I don't know if this story is true. All I can say is, it sounds >plausible to me. I got it second hand, and the person who told >me about it has since died. (In a very strange manner, but >that's another story.) Wow! What a story! You forgot the part where Agent Mulder and Scully and Carl Kolchak arrive in the nick of time only to have all witnesses disappear and their bosses deny everything. :) Actually this isn't even me responding. It's the 'Alternate Universe' me. You can easily tell it's the 'Alternate Universe' me 'cause I have a goatee or is it a van dyke? Actually it's not even the 'Alternate Universe' me it's my 'Alternate Universe Evil Robot Duplicate Clone Shadow People' me. Well, I'll confess. It's really the 'Alternate Universe Evil Robot Duplicate Clone Shadow People Greg's second cousin twice removed's ex-girlfriend's chiropractor/actor who is writing this opinion. Stories that far removed are just that.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:31:00 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:59:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Gehrman >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:05:28 -0300 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:05:00 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? <snip> >>I theorize that the creature is a monotreme by comparing the >>visible features of the creature with a general description of >>monotremes. My theory that UFO are from an earth-evolved >>civilization resulted from closely examining the AA debris and >>realizing that the craft couldn't have been a starship. I've >>also studied the similarity between the script found on the I- >>beams and the writing from ancient texts. I guess what I'm >>hinting at is that "knowing" takes time and effort, or as >>Montaigne also wrote: "To make judgements about great and high >>things, a soul of the same stature is needed..." >I think there are enough reports opf truly huge space carriers >so as to suggest that they are the star ships whereas the much >smaller earth excursion modules run around in the atmosphere >but get home on the carriers..... Think of high performance navy >jets based on huge aircraft carriers.. Stan, I have no doubt that there are mother-ships and huge "space carriers", but we don't have footage their debris, so details can't be examined. And huge crafts flying through our sky doesn't necessarily mean that they are from other star systems. That's just your bias showing. The debris in the AA indicates that the civilization we're confronting is more advanced than us, but not so much that we can't imagine how these crafts operate; and they are vulnerable. There are many clues, if you look closely and realize that what you're looking at is really what crashed in Nogal Canyon. Your problem is that you still think the AA is a fake or hoaxed
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Re: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:38:44 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:02:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell >From: Robert Gates <rgates8254.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:54:31 -0400 >Subject: Re: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell Theory >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >>Sent: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:28:11 -0400 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell Theory <snip> >>"You may recall the film showing wreckage parts. There was the >>'I' beam, clearly stamped "VIDEO TV." And the metal plates >>designed to fit six fingered hands. They were not control >>devices, they didn't have any switches attached. Their only >>function was to contact the volunteer's hands, so they could >>read data like temperature, pulse rate and skin resistance. If >>the volunteer failed to touch the plates on command, it would >>mean either he was no longer conscious, or the equipment had >>failed. In which case the gondola would be automatically >>released and flown down. >Wasn't this the hoax tent footage? Robert, The debris from the craft was filmed in a tent, but this "tent" footage wasn't the hoax footage. The "hoaxed footage" was of doctor-like humans taking sausage-like material from an opening in what looks like a small doll or manikin. It was obviously
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Re: Mystery Of 'Dragons' Over Tibet Solved - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:43:59 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:03:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Mystery Of 'Dragons' Over Tibet Solved - Smith >From: Tliuk4.nul >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:44:08 EDT >Subject: Mystery Of 'Dragons' Over Tibet Solved >Hi, I just want you guys to know that the mystery of the tibet >dragon was solved by me. I posted the satelite images of the >exact location on where the photo of the dragon was taken and it >turns out to be an icy river, I hope you guys would correct that >article , thnx. Heres the links
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Secrecy News -- 08/26/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:26:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:41:15 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/26/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 83 August 26, 2005 ** ARMY WARNS AGAINST PLACING SENSITIVE INFO ONLINE ** INADVERTENT DISCLOSURE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS INFO ARMY WARNS AGAINST PLACING SENSITIVE INFO ONLINE In an internal message sent this month to "all Army leaders," U.S. Army Chief of Staff General Peter J. Schoomaker warned that sensitive military information is being posted by Army personnel on the internet and that "the enemy continues to exploit such information for use against our forces." He ordered increased attention to operational security to address the problem. "Some soldiers continue to post sensitive information to internet websites and blogs, e.g. photos depicting weapon system vulnerabilities and tactics, techniques, and procedures," Gen. Schoomaker wrote. "Such OPSEC [operational security] violations needlessly place lives at risk and degrade the effectiveness of our operations." Gen. Schoomaker appended a related February 2005 alert from the Vice Chief of Staff, who elaborated further: "The enemy is actively searching the unclassified networks for information, especially sensitive photos, in order to obtain targeting data, weapons system vulnerabilities, and TTPs [tactics, techniques, and procedures] for use against the Coalition. A more aggressive attitude toward protecting friendly information is vital to mission success. The enemy is a pro at exploiting our OPSEC vulnerabilities." "Remind all personnel that the enemy will exploit sensitive photos showing the results of IED strikes, battle scenes, casualties, destroyed or damaged equipment, and enemy KIAs as propaganda and terrorist training tools... We cannot afford to have our photos become training and recruitment tools for the enemy," the Vice Chief of Staff stated. "Get the word out and focus on this issue now," Gen. Schoomaker wrote. "I expect to see immediate improvement." A copy of Gen. Schoomaker's August 2005 message was obtained by Secrecy News. See: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/08/usa0805.html INADVERTENT DISCLOSURE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS INFO Upon reviewing 1.3 million pages of declassified records at the National Archives earlier this year, Energy Department officials found 76 pages of classified nuclear weapons-related information that were inadvertently released, according to a new report to Congress. As in similar surveys in the past, most of the inadvertently released classified records concerned historical nuclear weapons storage locations or stockpile quantities -- information that does not represent a current proliferation hazard. However, some of the records also included unspecified weapons design information. See "Seventeenth Report on Inadvertent Releases of Restricted Data and Formerly Restricted Data under Executive Order 12958," DOE Report to Congress, May 2005 (declassified version, August 2005): http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/inadvertent17.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 26 Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:12:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:40:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon - Balaskas >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:16:59 +1000 >Subject: Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:43:27 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon <snip> >>Unlike crops circles or physical evidence cases (such as the >>alien blonde hair strands that Bill Chalker and Whitley Strieber >>obtained and sent out for testing) where no UFOs are ever >>sighted... >Whitley Strieber was not involved in the case you refer to here >- namely Peter Khoury's 1992 recovery of hair samples, >documented in my book "Hair of the Alien". However I just >finished a prerecorded interview for Whitley Strieber's >Dreamland radio show, about the case, because he has just read >my book. Hi Bill! A different blonde hair was sent to author/host Whitley Strieber which eventually made its way to me. According to this other witness, the blonde hair came from the head of a human looking female alien from the Pleiades. I contacted you by e-mail asking for details on the DNA analysis you had just done on your "alien" blonde hair so I could arrange to have the same tests done with this one but I never got a reply from you. As a result DNA tests on this other blonde hair, which I still have in the original envelope it was mailed to me in, have yet to be done. As I have not read your book, maybe you can outline what DNA tests you had done on your blonde hair so that I can repeat the same tests with the hair I got through Whitley Strieber. This will better allow us to note any similarities or differences between these two "alien" hairs. >In the above comment you argue that the "alien" hair evidence >and Peter Khoury's 1992 case has no direct correlation with the >UFO phenomenon. While there was no evidence of a UFO hovering >over the house for this event, there is the matter of context. >This experience is certainly explicitedly connected to the alien >abduction phenomenon and is part of a series of experiences, >with include: >1964 - Lebanon - Peter Khoury's mother while nursing him at 28 >days old has a strange encounter with a tall blonde haired man >1971 - Lebanon - Peter Khoury with other children has a strange >encounter with an object with 2 people inside. Missing time >involved along with strange mark on the leg. >1988, February - Sydney, Australia - Khoury & his partner have a >UFO sighting >1988, July - Sydney, Australia - Khoury has an abduction >experience involving a needle probe, grey beings and short squat >creature - he has a scoop mark on his leg & a head wound related >to the needle insertion. >1992 July - Sydney, Australia - Khoury has his bizarre encounter >with the 2 strange women - one blonde haired nordic looking, the >other dark hair Asian looking. He recovers a hair sample, which >gets DNA tested by my APEG team - unusual DNA sequences found. >1992 November - Sydney, Australia - another abduction encounter >transported through a mirror - scoop mark found. <snip> Some of us may want to believe otherwise, but there is no direct correlation between what allegedly happened to Peter Khoury with the UFO phenomenon. Although I do not have actual statistics, nearly all of us have had at least one strange and unexplained experience in our lives comparible to or weirder than Peter Khoury's. Just ask family members, friends or colleagues at work and you will be surprised! Since nearly all of us can also recall seeing at least one UFO in our past, according to your reasoning this
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 27 Photo Analysis Requested From: Josh Presseisen <josh.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:20:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:42:55 -0400 Subject: Photo Analysis Requested Hello List, Here is a link to a photo that a friend sent to me about a year ago, taken near the Brooklyn Bridge and shot on a Canon 4 mega pixel camera: http://www.aliensthetruth.com/images/sightings/brooklyn_saucer.jpg I'm trying to rule out lense flare - I've seen many in my day, whether made in photoshop, or from the actual sun - as any comparison to other lense flares doesn't seem to match up. There were other photos shot that night, around the same area, but none have the same anomaly in them. The atmosphere around the object seems to jibe with the image also. Anyone care to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 27 Re: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:21:52 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:47:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell >From: Robert Gates <rgates8254.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 20:54:31 -0400 >Subject: Re: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell Theory >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >>Sent: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:28:11 -0400 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell Theory >>Source: Steve Bartholomew's Charged Barticle Site >>http://chargedbarticle.org/truth_about_roswell.htm >>May 3, 2005 >>The Truth About Roswell <snip> >>"You may recall the film showing wreckage parts. There was the >>'I' beam, clearly stamped "VIDEO TV." And the metal plates >>designed to fit six fingered hands. They were not control >>devices, they didn't have any switches attached. Their only >>function was to contact the volunteer's hands, so they could >>read data like temperature, pulse rate and skin resistance. If >>the volunteer failed to touch the plates on command, it would >>mean either he was no longer conscious, or the equipment had >>failed. In which case the gondola would be automatically >>released and flown down. >Wasn't this the hoax tent footage? No. The tent footage doesn't match the rest of the film in any way and is pretty obviously a hoax. The debris footage shows a table with various pieces of the crashed "whatever" being handled by a uniformed man whose face is not shown. The I beam mentioned does not say VIDEO TV on it. The letters on the I beams most closely resemble Phoenician writing, according to experts who have commented. It looks a lot like ancient Greek to me. While the "autopsy" footage was obviously taken with a hand-held camera, this footage was shot with a tripod-mounted camera equipped with electric motor (because there are continuous shots longer than the spring motor can take). Electric motor add-ons were available for the Filmo camera, and could be run from car batteries. I find this debris footage almost as interesting as the "autopsy" footage, since the items on the table do not look like the items described by the people who saw what Brazel found and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 27 Satellite Image 'Formation' - Richmond, BC From: Paul Anderson - CCCRN News <cccrnnews.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:32:53 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:50:35 -0400 Subject: Satellite Image 'Formation' - Richmond, BC CCCRN NEWS E-News from the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network August 26, 2005 http://www.cccrn.ca _____________________________ UPDATE - SATELLITE IMAGE 'FORMATION' - RICHMOND, BRITISH COLUMBIA A subsequent search using GlobeXplorer found the same image of the feature in the same (enclosed field) location, dated June 2, 2004 (on page above the image itself), which is identical to the Google Earth image, as well as another image from 2002 showing the same feature, albeit somewhat less distinctly, meaning the "formation" has been there for at least the last few years and is likely some sort of permanent farming or irrigation-related feature. Addendum: the feature has been identified as a garden maintained by the Nanaksar Gurdwara Gursikh Temple (Sikh). _____________________________ CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent free to your e-mail
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 27 Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood - From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 17:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:55:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood - >From: Rob Kritkausky >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:05:10 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood >>From: Eleanor White >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:26:36 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood >Publicizing the results of this work is currently not in the >best interest of science; >>I would think that if genuine, unbiased science is being done, >>publicizing every single step of the process would have >>absolutely zero effect on the result. There is far too much >>secrecy in this world, definitely inclusive of ufology. My fault for not expressing the situation more acuurately. It is not the data/work that requires secrecy. I am speaking in terms of site integrity. We have invested some time into identifying the area's potential variables, in hopes of accounting for them statistically. In addition, there is equipment which has to be left unattended at times. That being said, any publicity concerning the area would certainly result in some form of small scale tourism. If that were the case, I cannot think of any scenarios in which we would benefit scientifically from such attention. I realize discussions about geographical locations may sound like references to an entirely different subject then the one at hand. However, when the veil is finally lifted on this subject, don't be surprised if certain locations (with special geological characteristics) play a key role in the manifestation of this phenomenon. If I were interested in this subject, some key terms to research might include field-programmable gate array technology and Carbon Nanotubes. I agree with your position regarding secrecy by the way. However, balancing transparency in government with public public safety is a difficult responsibility of government. In fact, I
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 27 Re: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:35:20 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:58:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Incredible Story Backs Redfern's Roswell >Source: Steve Bartholomew's Charged Barticle Site >http://chargedbarticle.org/truth_about_roswell.htm >May 3, 2005 >The Truth About Roswell >I don't know if this story is true. All I can say is, it sounds >plausible to me. I got it second hand, and the person who told >me about it has since died. (In a very strange manner, but >that's another story.) >According to my informant, whom I will call Bill, his uncle had >served as a surgeon in the U.S. Army from 1942 until 1952, when >he retired and went into private medical practice. I never >learned Bill's uncle's real name, but I will call him Captain >Malone. That was his rank in 1947, when he was stationed in >Roswell, New Mexico. >Bill himself was told the story many years after the fact, when >Captain Malone was in a nursing home dying of emphysema and >still smoking whenever he had the chance. Bill said his uncle >had never been the same man after events at Roswell. He carried >a load of guilt with him all his life, but he had to tell at >least one person before he died. Sounds like a crock to me. If you are trying to determine the effects of very high altitude on people (test pilots) you have to go to high altitude... far above the storms that occur at 5 - 8 miles altitude. Storms would, of course, affect a glider... but who would be stupid enough to try to fly a glider through a storm. And, if a test pilot or pilots did that, the glider would have been disconnected from any balloon many minutes before and the glider and balloon would have been widely separated in space by the time they landed. The mention of "VIDEO.TV" as being on the little I beam sounds as if the story teller believes that the term "video" would have been used in 1947 when Television was a term just becoming known. (If anything, this is more of an indication of a hoax in the Santilli film... unless the inerpretation of the symbols is completely wrong, which is certainly a possiblity). The bit about the lack of belly button on the Santilli alien being a result of implantation of something in a deformed human's stomach makes little sense. In fact, the whole thing makes little sense. If there really was this doctor at Roswell and if any of his story is true he might have combined his recollections with his
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 27 Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood - From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:56:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:59:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood - >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:26:36 -0400 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood >>From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:05:10 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood ><snip> >>Publicizing the results of this work is currently not in the >>best interest of science; >I would think that if genuine, unbiased science is being done, >publicizing every single step of the process would have >absolutely zero effect on the result. There is far too much >secrecy in this world, definitely inclusive of ufology.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 27 Re: An Open Question To The List - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:00:22 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:02:10 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Friedman >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:39:10 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:54:58 -1000 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List ><snip> >>>You have not established that these allegations are anything but >>>bunk. I established that Lazar didn't go to MIT or Cal >>>Tech..That MWKruvant didn't obtain any of the degrees he >>>claimed. >I wonder if Bob Lazar would agree to take a physics exam >commensurate with his claimed degrees. One would think he might find his diploma and his MS thesis and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 27 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:14:51 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:05:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Friedman >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:31:00 -0700 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:05:28 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:05:00 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? ><snip> >>>I theorize that the creature is a monotreme by comparing the >>>visible features of the creature with a general description of >>>monotremes. My theory that UFO are from an earth-evolved >>>civilization resulted from closely examining the AA debris and >>>realizing that the craft couldn't have been a starship. I've >>>also studied the similarity between the script found on the I- >>>beams and the writing from ancient texts. I guess what I'm >>>hinting at is that "knowing" takes time and effort, or as >>>Montaigne also wrote: "To make judgements about great and high >>>things, a soul of the same stature is needed..." >>I think there are enough reports opf truly huge space carriers >>so as to suggest that they are the star ships whereas the much >>smaller earth excursion modules run around in the atmosphere >>but get home on the carriers..... Think of high performance navy >>jets based on huge aircraft carriers.. >Stan, >I have no doubt that there are mother-ships and huge "space >carriers", but we don't have footage their debris, so details >can't be examined. And huge crafts flying through our sky >doesn't necessarily mean that they are from other star systems. >That's just your bias showing. The debris in the AA indicates >that the civilization we're confronting is more advanced than >us, but not so much that we can't imagine how these crafts >operate; and they are vulnerable. There are many clues, if you >look closely and realize that what you're looking at is really >what crashed in Nogal Canyon. I can't find a connection between the AA and reports of huge high performance craft capable of speeds like 5400 miles per hour as observed on aircraft radar many years ago over Canada and 5-7 times the size of a 747 and heading up, up and away. Might I suggest that they don't originate on earth, regardless of the legitimacy of the AA footage? So maybe they are from local bases on the back side of the Moon, in the asteroid belt on a moon of Saturn... that still makes them of ET origin >Your problem is that you still think the AA is a fake or hoaxed >so you won't take the time to really examine the footage and see >what's there. Why is it my problem? You mentioned not a starship and I
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 27 Exopolitics Courses For Fall 2005 From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:32:09 -1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:09:35 -0400 Subject: Exopolitics Courses For Fall 2005 Aloha, I hope you excuse me for promoting my forthcoming Fall courses in Exopolitics that start in the week of Sept 5. I think they are samples of the kinds of courses one will eventually encounter in graduate University programs once there is open disclosure of the ET presence. So the courses are a way that prospective students and the instructor can analyze the extensive exopolitical data that exists. Now some researchers on this list will strongly disagree over the validity of 'exopolitical data'. Whistleblower testimonies for example are routinely ignored by most researchers. For example, I recently posted an update on further investigations of Charles Hall's testimony where David Coote found three independent witnesses to corroborate parts of Hall's story. See: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-36.htm Bruce Maccabee kindly supplied information corroborating evidence for parts of the interviews pertaining to widespread fear by guards/weather observers over the high strangeness in the Indian Springs area at Nellis AFB in the period of Hall's service: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/aug/m10-006.shtml This is important circumstantial evidence supporting Charles Hall testimony but it was ignored by others on the list. I think considering the testimony of Hall and other whistleblowers helps considerably in understanding the exopolitical situation before us in terms not only a "cosmic watergate" of secrecy, but also of secret agreements between government agencies and some extraterrestrial races. The course structure, content and evaluation is modeled on the graduate courses I have taught at American University, Washington DC.; George Washington University; and the Australian National University. So in that sense prospective students will find it similar to many online courses offered by universities. The main difference is that the content is 'exopolitics' which is still not considered a serious academic study at most universities, and there is no formal association with any accredited teaching center and so no credit is possible for current university students. The first course is "Citizen Diplomacy with Extraterrestrials" which examines the kinds of issues that private citizens have when establishing communications and interactions with visiting extraterrestrial races. Starting with the alleged Eisenhower meeting with ETs in 1954 (something supported by Charles Hall testimony), the data supporting the existence of 'official' galactic diplomacy with extraterrestrials is overwhelming in my view. I believe that rather than stop at efforts to disclose the truth of the secret diplomacy conducted by the "shadow government" (or the "secret government within the government" as Bill Clinton alleged to Sarah McClendon) we need to learn about the basics of 'citizen' or 'track two' diplomacy so they can initiate their own diplomatic initiatives with visiting extraterrestrials. I think that the exclusive focus on finding incontrovertible proof of the extraterrestrial presence no longer serves the purpose it once did and we now need to take action to directly mitigate the egregious effects of the current diplomatic agreements between the 'shadow government' and some extraterrestrial races. The second course is "Political Management of the Extraterrestrial Presence" This course examines how the extraterrestrial presence has been politically managed by major world governments since the early 1930's. The course begins by examining the foundations for the US and global management system from key political and global events concerning the presence of extraterrestrial visitors. The erosion of executive authority from the time of the Truman administration as a byproduct of the formation of a secret committee system to manage extraterrestrial affairs will also be examined. The way in which global cooperation has been institutionally supported to manage extraterrestrial affairs will also be analyzed. Finally, the course will focus on the contemporary management system set in place to deal with extraterrestrial affairs and maintaining the "Cosmic Watergate". Those interested can find out more about the two fall exopolitics courses at: http://www.exopolitics.org/Courses.htm Finally, I believe that those who thoroughly familiarize with the various issues concerning 'citizen diplomacy with extraterrestrials' or "political management of the ET Presence" through courses similar to those I'm conducting, will be best placed to deal with the challenges that lie ahead as we move into an era of open disclosure of visiting extraterrestrial
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 27 North Dakota Crop Formation - 08-19-05 From: Paul Anderson - CCRN <paulanderson.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 23:58:49 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:14:10 -0400 Subject: North Dakota Crop Formation - 08-19-05 Thanks to Chris Rutkowski (UFOROM) for the initial report yesterday: "Just heard about this site, near Northwood, North Dakota, about 30 miles SW of Grand Forks. Story is that a pilot flew over this field on Friday, 19 August, and it was bare, but when he came back a few hours later, the circles were there." Addendum: Nancy Talbott now has this update (forwarded by request): "August 26, 2005: BLT Research Team has received a report of a 5-circle "thought bubble" crop formation in mature wheat, near Northwood, North Dakota. Reports indicate it is now about 1 week old and the farmer has now cut the majority of the field (on August 22nd), leaving some standing crop around the formation. The first eyewitness reports indicate there were no tracks going into the field (pathway in aerial created by newspaper photographer). The largest circle is approximately 70' in diameter, the smallest 6-1/2' in diameter, and the lay in all circles is counter-clockwise. More details will be reported as the fieldworkers complete on- site investigation. Aerial photo: Mike Nichols. Ground photos: Brad Jensen." http://www.cccrn.ca/northwood05a.jpg http://www.cccrn.ca/northwood05b.jpg http://www.cccrn.ca/northwood05c.jpg Paul Anderson Director Canadian Crop Circle Research Network http://www.cccrn.ca (Note: I'm now using a modified version of my CCCRN News postings for relevant discussion groups or forums; the same
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 27 Salla & Stone [was: An Open Question To The List] From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:09:00 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:23:57 -0400 Subject: Salla & Stone [was: An Open Question To The List] >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:54:58 -1000 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:58:54 -0300 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 07:03:13 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:26:59 -0300 >>>>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:18:21 -1000 >>>>>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List <snip> >>>This is precisely what whistleblowers >>>such as Clifford Stone, Bob Lazar allege, and you are on the >>>record for regarding such a claim as 'bunk'. >>You have not established that these allegations are anything but >>bunk. I established that Lazar didn't go to MIT or Cal >>Tech... That MWKruvant didn't obtain any of the degrees he >>claimed. Kevin Randle has dealt with Stone's background >>enlargement . You keep making unsubstantiated claims. >Bob Lazar, Michael Wolf, Clifford Stone, Daniel Burisch, Dan >Sherman, Daniel M. Salter, etc., are just a few who claim that >their records were removed/altered as a result of their >participation in such projects. These are serious claims and >need to be seriously explored and not rejected a priori due to >the absence of documents to conclusively validate their >backgrounds. I have to remind you that many still believe that >there is sufficient evidence to substantiate the credentials of >each of these whistleblowers despite the documents that >substantiate specific activities they performed during their >service/employment. Dr. Salla, List, All... Since you have again brought up the name of Cliff Stone, I would like to point out that you never answered my response to your allegations a couple of weeks ago. Now, I understand that you have been busy with your house guest and his lecture and thought you might have missed my last post. With Errol's kind permission, I will re-submit it here. I think it points out why there are many of us who do not buy into the great document disappearance and why we have asked the tough questions of these alleged whistleblowers. So, returning to the Cliff Stone threat and his claims of having seen this guidebook to the ETs, and to some of his other claims, I post: >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 07:18:45 -1000 >Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC >>From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:03:23 EDT >>Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC >>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:01:17 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC ><snip> >>>Is someone who rants on and on about how the military go around >>>altering a person's academic credentials, revising and deleting >>>his personal life history as it suits them and, presumably, >>>destroying each and every record of this victim's achievements >>>(to say nothing of erasing the memories of all the academics >>>& colleagues who taught, or who worked with, the said victim), >>>all because the said person was on the verge of becoming a >>>'whistleblower', worth taking seriously? >>>Anyone who accepts that such things are possible can side with >>>Michael Salla. Anyone who does not (i.e. I presume, at least 99 >>>per cent of this List) will side with Brad Sparks. I know which >>>side I'm on. >>>CDA >>Dr. Salla is worth taking seriously, as Brad, Kevin, Stan Friedman, >>Josh Goldstein, Dick Hall, myself and others have done at various >>times, because its important to set the record straight for those who >>might wander by, here or elsewhere, and just get Dr. Salla's side of >>the story. He is also worth taking seriously simply because he is one >>of the main proponents of exopolitics, and its important for ufology >>to make a very clear, and public, distinction between the fringes - >>like exopolitics - and the serious study of the UFO phenomenon, just >>as it was important to make the distinction, years ago, between >>the contactees and the serious study of the UFO phenomenon. >>Kudos to Brad and Kevin for their recent efforts. <snip> >Paul Kimball cites researchers such as Brad Sparks, Kevin >Randall, Stanton Friedman, Josh Goldstein, Richard Hall and >himself as exemplary models for systematically defining the >parameters of the "Serious Study of the UFO phenomenon" in terms >of a 'scientific method' for studying UFO sightings, the >abduction phenomenon, FOIA documents, etc. It's worth pointing >out that aside from Stanton Friedman, none of these gentlemen >are scientists that enable them to authoritatively establish the >scientific method as championed as the exemplary model for UFO >research. In Stanton's case while he worked as nuclear >physicist, he doesn't have a PhD nor does he have a record of >peer reviewed publications in scientific journals. While Kevin >Randall does have a PhD, it's in psychology, not any of the >physical sciences cited as the model for the serious study of >the UFO phenomenon. Also, I am not aware of Dr Randall having >published psychology papers in peer reviewed psychology journals >or practiced clinical psychology. First, I would like to point out that I take trouble to make sure that I spell the names of those I address correctly. Sure, I sometimes screw it up, but not after I have had multiple exchanges with that individual. I not sure what Dr. Salla is implying here. That we who have advanced degrees should be ignored in favor of those who have high school diplomas? That somehow, because two of my advanced degrees are in psychology, I missed the classes on physical science. My undergraduate work was in anthropology, or more specifically, the high civilizations of Mesoamerica and the Central Andes with an emphasis on settlement patterns. I studied astronomy under Dr. James van Allen (yeah the radiation belt guy) but to be fair, he taught but a single class and was the chairman of the department. Most of the classes were taught by others. I have had, however, the opportunity to engage him in conversations about UFOs on a number of ocassions. I have been involved in a couple of psychology experiments and have published in peer reviewed journals. The one known to nearly everyone on this list is "Message in a Bottle Confounds in Deciphering the Ramey Memo from the Roswell Case", with Jim Houran. I will also point out that I have no desire to be a clinician and that many who have degrees in psychology use them in other arenas from research to industrial, and sports psychology. Maybe he'd like to trot out that old chestnut that I write science fiction so that my research should be suspect: though about half the members of the Science Fiction Writers of America are working scientists and no one from those other disciplines seemed concerned about it. But mostly, I have noticed that I have seen no response to my suggestions that Cliff Stone (who does have a high school diploma) and who has freely violated his security oaths and who has said that he has shared classified information with those not cleared to have it, now balks at telling us the new name for Project Moon Dust. I also await the proper name of the EBE guidebook so that I might use FOIA to request a copy since Dr. Salla has made it clear that Stone will not reveal classified information and therefore the document must be unclassified. Checkmate.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 27 Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:20:44 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:51:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Shell >From: Josh Presseisen <josh.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:20:29 -0400 >Subject: Photo Analysis Requested <snip> >I'm trying to rule out lense flare - I've seen many in my day, >whether made in photoshop, or from the actual sun - as any >comparison to other lense flares doesn't seem to match up. Lense flare? Lens flare. What I see is very typical lens flare caused by the bright lights below. The lens exhibits relatively high coma, which is what gives the flare this characteristic shape. No mystery here.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 27 Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:56:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Groff >From: Josh Presseisen <josh.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:20:29 -0400 >Subject: Photo Analysis Requested >Here is a link to a photo that a friend sent to me about a year >ago, taken near the Brooklyn Bridge and shot on a Canon 4 >mega pixel camera: >http://www.aliensthetruth.com/images/sightings/brooklyn_saucer.jpg >I'm trying to rule out lense flare - I've seen many in my day, >whether made in photoshop, or from the actual sun - as any >comparison to other lense flares doesn't seem to match up. >There were other photos shot that night, around the same area, >but none have the same anomaly in them. The atmosphere around >the object seems to jibe with the image also. Anyone care to >take a stab at it? The first thing I noticed was the object doesn't seem to have
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 27 Re: North Dakota Crop Formation - 08-19-05 From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:24:03 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:58:14 -0400 Subject: Re: North Dakota Crop Formation - 08-19-05 >From: Paul Anderson - CCRN <paulanderson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 23:58:49 -0700 >Subject: North Dakota Crop Formation - 08-19-05 >Thanks to Chris Rutkowski (UFOROM) for the initial report yesterday: >"Just heard about this site, near Northwood, North Dakota, >about 30 miles SW of Grand Forks. Story is that a pilot flew >over this field on Friday, 19 August, and it was bare, but when >he came back a few hours later, the circles were there." "A few hours later" sounds a bit sloppy to me. A private pilot would likely know within ten minutes or so of the time out and time back. A commercial pilot would know within minutes. Both have to keep logs noting their time off and time on. There's also the chance that the pilot missed seeing the crop circle on the first leg of the flight. What about altitudes and type of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 27 Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:48:44 +1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:01:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon - Chalker >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:12:18 -0400 >Subject: Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:16:59 +1000 >>Subject: Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon >>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:43:27 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) >>>Subject: Re: Fatima And The UFO Phenomenon ><snip> >>>Unlike crops circles or physical evidence cases (such as the >>>alien blonde hair strands that Bill Chalker and Whitley Strieber >>>obtained and sent out for testing) where no UFOs are ever >>>sighted... >>>Whitley Strieber was not involved in the case you refer to here >>- namely Peter Khoury's 1992 recovery of hair samples, >>documented in my book "Hair of the Alien". However I just >>finished a prerecorded interview for Whitley Strieber's >>Dreamland radio show, about the case, because he has just read >>my book. >A different blonde hair was sent to author/host Whitley Strieber >which eventually made its way to me. According to this other >witness, the blonde hair came from the head of a human looking >female alien from the Pleiades. I contacted you by e-mail asking >for details on the DNA analysis you had just done on your >"alien" blonde hair so I could arrange to have the same tests >done with this one but I never got a reply from you. As a result >DNA tests on this other blonde hair, which I still have in the >original envelope it was mailed to me in, have yet to be done. Hi Nick, I have no record of receiving any communication from you on the hair sample you describe coming from Whitley Strieber to you, other than the copy of this current message you sent me, off-List. That is why I thought you were connecting Whitley Strieber to the Khoury case, but now I see you are referring to an entirely different case - allegedly a "blonde hair... from the head of a human looking female alien from the Pleiades." I am not aware of this case at all and would be certainly interested in the details and what the chain of evidence and quality of the story appears to be. >As I have not read your book, maybe you can outline what DNA >tests you had done on your blonde hair so that I can repeat the >same tests with the hair I got through Whitley Strieber. This >will better allow us to note any similarities or differences >between these two "alien" hairs. The methodology on our first phase of the DNA testing - essentially mitochondrial DNA testing of a hair shaft with root, focusing on deviations from the human consensus - have been described in detail originally in IUR back in 1999 and has been online since then at at least these sites: A PDF copy of the "Strange Evidence" IUR article should be available at this link: http://www.cufos.org/strange_evidence.pdf Typed versions are at least at: http://www.theozfiles.com/strange_evidence11.html http://www.users.tpg.com.au/ufoesa/1992_abduction.html Review the methodology and see how you go. I hope that you are able to thoroughly establish the bonafides of the sample, particularly with respect to any controls that would be necessary to conduct, the chain of evidence, the context and other appropriate matters. The controls obviously would be pertinent to carry out on the party that directly provided the sample to you via Whitley Strieber. You would need to establish who may have handled the sample, if at all, for consideration of controls the appropiate controls. These may be ruled out in the washing steps, but it is important for obvious reasons to establish handling. If you run into problems I will try to assist, although I will be out of the country shortly for a couple of weeks. I know I and my associates would certainly like to assist where ever we can to get a credible testing of another bonafide sample. If there is an intact root then it would be worthwhile for you to consult the Phase Two testing protocols, again for mito DNA work, but we also undertook nuclear DNA work there as well. This information is carried in detail as an appendix in my book. If you are working in this field you will realise that there have been a lot of developments in this area of DNA testing. While replication or not per out test protocols would be worthwhile point from our point of view, the nature of the events per your particular sample, and the quality and extent of samples, may actually allow other testing alternatives, but it is not worthwhile for me to comment any further on possible options in the absence of any details about the circumstances surrounding your sample. >>In the above comment you argue that the "alien" hair evidence >>and Peter Khoury's 1992 case has no direct correlation with the >>UFO phenomenon. While there was no evidence of a UFO hovering >>over the house for this event, there is the matter of context. >>This experience is certainly explicitedly connected to the alien >>abduction phenomenon and is part of a series of experiences, >>with include: >>1964 - Lebanon - Peter Khoury's mother while nursing him at 28 >>days old has a strange encounter with a tall blonde haired man >>1971 - Lebanon - Peter Khoury with other children has a strange >>encounter with an object with 2 people inside. Missing time >>involved along with strange mark on the leg. >>1988, February - Sydney, Australia - Khoury & his partner have a >>UFO sighting >>1988, July - Sydney, Australia - Khoury has an abduction >>experience involving a needle probe, grey beings and short squat >>creature - he has a scoop mark on his leg & a head wound related >>to the needle insertion. >>1992 July - Sydney, Australia - Khoury has his bizarre encounter >>with the 2 strange women - one blonde haired nordic looking, the >>other dark hair Asian looking. He recovers a hair sample, which >>gets DNA tested by my APEG team - unusual DNA sequences found. >>1992 November - Sydney, Australia - another abduction encounter >>transported through a mirror - scoop mark found. ><snip> >Some of us may want to believe otherwise, but there is no direct >correlation between what allegedly happened to Peter Khoury with >the UFO phenomenon. I'm sure we can agree to disagree on this point. You may wish to consult the detailed case study I have provided of the Khoury events, most expansively detailed in my book "Hair of the Alien". I feel the events are of more than passing interest to the UFO field, but you are entitled to your conclusions, as I am to mine. >Although I do not have actual statistics, nearly all of us have >had at least one strange and unexplained experience in our lives >comparible to or weirder than Peter Khoury's. Just ask family >members, friends or colleagues at work and you will be >surprised! Since nearly all of us can also recall seeing at >least one UFO in our past, according to your reasoning this >would qualify us all as abductees/experiencers and potential >subjects of millions of other books similar to yours! If your associates have the same extensive profile of experiences and evidence as in the Khoury situation, then I suspect it would be somewhat beyond the average dynamic. I am well aware of lots of friends with experiences of various kinds, but few have the kind of complex array of experiences and evidence described by Khoury and some other abductees. Good luck with your investigation and proposed analyses. I hope you can keep us informed of the detailed results.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 27 Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:05:40 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 15:16:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Ledger >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:20:44 -0400 >Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested >>From: Josh Presseisen <josh.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:20:29 -0400 >>Subject: Photo Analysis Requested ><snip> >>I'm trying to rule out lense flare - I've seen many in my day, >>whether made in photoshop, or from the actual sun - as any >>comparison to other lense flares doesn't seem to match up. >Lense flare? Lens flare. >What I see is very typical lens flare caused by the bright >lights below. The lens exhibits relatively high coma, which >is what gives the flare this characteristic shape. >No mystery here. It's time lapse and the camera was jiggled. Wouldn't the flare
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 27 Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:34:21 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 15:18:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Hatch >From: Josh Presseisen <josh.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:20:29 -0400 >Subject: Photo Analysis Requested >Hello List, >Here is a link to a photo that a friend sent to me about a year >ago, taken near the Brooklyn Bridge and shot on a Canon 4 mega >pixel camera: >http://www.aliensthetruth.com/images/sightings/brooklyn_saucer.jpg >I'm trying to rule out lense flare - I've seen many in my day, >whether made in photoshop, or from the actual sun - as any >comparison to other lense flares doesn't seem to match up. >There were other photos shot that night, around the same area, >but none have the same anomaly in them. The atmosphere around >the object seems to jibe with the image also. Anyone care to >take a stab at it? Josh: I am definitely the wrong guy to ask. To my untrained eye, nevertheless, this looks like some sort of lens . optical effect. It is the blue color, the larger 'ghost' images around the apparent object that suggest this to me. I leave it to others of course, but I doubt that the blue 'saucer' was much more than something like a reflection. I could be wrong of course. It could be an ultra-violet street lamp, reflected off of a pelican and distorted by a temperature inversion, but I really doubt that too. I would vote for some arcane photographic artifact unless the (whatever) came down and started taking specimens.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 27 Re: Salla & Stone - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 06:29:20 -1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 15:21:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Salla & Stone - Salla >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:09:00 EDT >Subject: Salla & Stone [was: An Open Question To The List] >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:54:58 -1000 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:58:54 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List <snip> >Dr. Salla, List, All... >Since you have again brought up the name of Cliff Stone, I would >like to point out that you never answered my response to your >allegations a couple of weeks ago. Now, I understand that you >have been busy with your house guest and his lecture and thought >you might have missed my last post. With Errol's kind >permission, I will re-submit it here. I think it points out why >there are many of us who do not buy into the great document >disappearance and why we have asked the tough questions of these >alleged whistleblowers. >So, returning to the Cliff Stone threat and his claims of having >seen this guidebook to the ETs, and to some of his other claims, >I post: >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 07:18:45 -1000 >>Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC >>>From: Paul Kimball <Kimballwood.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:03:23 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Philip Corso & NSC >>>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:01:17 +0100 >>>>Subject: Re: Phillip Corso & NSC >><snip> >>>>Is someone who rants on and on about how the military go around >>>>altering a person's academic credentials, revising and deleting >>>>his personal life history as it suits them and, presumably, >>>>destroying each and every record of this victim's achievements >>>>(to say nothing of erasing the memories of all the academics >>>>& colleagues who taught, or who worked with, the said victim), >>>>all because the said person was on the verge of becoming a >>>>'whistleblower', worth taking seriously? >>>>Anyone who accepts that such things are possible can side with >>>>Michael Salla. Anyone who does not (i.e. I presume, at least 99 >>>>per cent of this List) will side with Brad Sparks. I know which >>>>side I'm on. >>>>CDA >>>Dr. Salla is worth taking seriously, as Brad, Kevin, Stan Friedman, >>>Josh Goldstein, Dick Hall, myself and others have done at various >>>times, because its important to set the record straight for those who >>>might wander by, here or elsewhere, and just get Dr. Salla's side of >>>the story. He is also worth taking seriously simply because he is one >>>of the main proponents of exopolitics, and its important for ufology >>>to make a very clear, and public, distinction between the fringes - >>>like exopolitics - and the serious study of the UFO phenomenon, just >>>as it was important to make the distinction, years ago, between >>>the contactees and the serious study of the UFO phenomenon. >>>Kudos to Brad and Kevin for their recent efforts. ><snip> >>Paul Kimball cites researchers such as Brad Sparks, Kevin >>Randall, Stanton Friedman, Josh Goldstein, Richard Hall and >>himself as exemplary models for systematically defining the >>parameters of the "Serious Study of the UFO phenomenon" in terms >>of a 'scientific method' for studying UFO sightings, the >>abduction phenomenon, FOIA documents, etc. It's worth pointing >>out that aside from Stanton Friedman, none of these gentlemen >>are scientists that enable them to authoritatively establish the >>scientific method as championed as the exemplary model for UFO >>research. In Stanton's case while he worked as nuclear >>physicist, he doesn't have a PhD nor does he have a record of >>peer reviewed publications in scientific journals. While Kevin >>Randall does have a PhD, it's in psychology, not any of the >>physical sciences cited as the model for the serious study of >>the UFO phenomenon. Also, I am not aware of Dr Randall having >>published psychology papers in peer reviewed psychology journals >>or practiced clinical psychology. >First, I would like to point out that I take trouble to make >sure that I spell the names of those I address correctly. Sure, >I sometimes screw it up, but not after I have had multiple >exchanges with that individual. >I not sure what Dr. Salla is implying here. That we who have >advanced degrees should be ignored in favor of those who have >high school diplomas? That somehow, because two of my advanced >degrees are in psychology, I missed the classes on physical >science. >My undergraduate work was in anthropology, or more specifically, >the high civilizations of Mesoamerica and the Central Andes with >an emphasis on settlement patterns. I studied astronomy under >Dr. James van Allen (yeah the radiation belt guy) but to be >fair, he taught but a single class and was the chairman of the >department. Most of the classes were taught by others. I have >had, however, the opportunity to engage him in conversations >about UFOs on a number of ocassions. >I have been involved in a couple of psychology experiments and >have published in peer reviewed journals. The one known to >nearly everyone on this list is "Message in a Bottle Confounds >in Deciphering the Ramey Memo from the Roswell Case", with Jim >Houran. >I will also point out that I have no desire to be a clinician >and that many who have degrees in psychology use them in other >arenas from research to industrial, and sports psychology. >Maybe he'd like to trot out that old chestnut that I write >science fiction so that my research should be suspect: though >about half the members of the Science Fiction Writers of America >are working scientists and no one from those other disciplines >seemed concerned about it. >But mostly, I have noticed that I have seen no response to my >suggestions that Cliff Stone (who does have a high school >diploma) and who has freely violated his security oaths and who >has said that he has shared classified information with those >not cleared to have it, now balks at telling us the new name for >Project Moon Dust. I also await the proper name of the EBE >guidebook so that I might use FOIA to request a copy since Dr. >Salla has made it clear that Stone will not reveal classified >information and therefore the document must be unclassified. >Checkmate. Aloha Dr Randle, (aka Captain Randle and soon to be Major Randle), I will never again mix up the famous Randle family name with the less distinguished Randalls. As for your competence as part of Brad Kimball's "A Team" for serious UFO research, I was pointing out that you do not have the empirical scientific background lauded as the ideal basis for the "Serious Study of the UFO phenomenon". The empirical study of "lights in the sky" as defined by Allen Hynek's The UFO Experience is very different to a PhD study in human or social psychology. Furthermore, being "involved in a couple of psychology experiments" is very different to a trained psychologist designing and implementing clinical studies into human or social psychology. You do not appear to have worked as a professional psychologist and thereby have minimal experience with the kinds of methodological issues professionals in pyschology and other social science disciplines constantly grapple with. If you had worked as a professional psychologist whether at a university or in a clinic, you would know that there is no consensus over what constitutes a "rigorous scientific method" thereby making the idea of an A-Team for the "Serious Study of the UFO phenomenon" nonsensical. I have not been ignoring you or Brad Sparks when it comes to Clifford Stone's claims. I have been continuing my research on his case and finding out more on his precise activities between 1974-1980 in terms of his FOIA requests and the discovery of Project Moon Dust. Since it has been alleged by Brad Sparks and supported by you that Stone "ripped off" Todd Roberts FOIA research on Project Moon Dust, I simply need to dig deeper to find out what happened in that period. When I do get more information, I will respond to the list with my findings. As for the name of the EBE Guidebook Clifford Stone discussed with me in my July inteview, he said it was a 3" thick "Guide" with over 1000 pages with medical and background data on 57 EBE races that he saw between 1979-89 when his handler, a mysterious 'Colonel', allowed him to look at it in that period. It appeared to fill the role of a first aid manual for injured EBEs based on different physiologies and medical needs. Since Stone claims to have been working on UFO crash retrieval teams since 1969 then it seems the EBE Guidebook was completed sometime in 1979. As for Stone violating his security oaths, I think you should not assume that someone that has broken security oaths with the release of some information is obliged to do the same with all classified information in his/her possession. It appears that Stone is constrained in how much he reveals to the general public and we are still trying to assess his credibility as a whistleblower over what he has revealed, rather than judging him for what he has not revealed. As far as the name of Project Moon Dust's successor is concerned, there are two levels of classification here. The first is the project itself which is undoubtedly classified as was initially the case with Moondust. As for the project name, it has been made clear to me that Stone is not prepared to make any public statementb of the project name either because it is classified or because he has given his word not to. I repeat, Stone's case needs to be assessed on the basis of information he can reveal rather than information he is constrained not to reveal. I think whistleblowers need to be acknowledged as being in a very precarious position and shouldn't be baited into
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: North Dakota Crop Formation - 08-19-05 - From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:47:08 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:05:03 -0400 Subject: Re: North Dakota Crop Formation - 08-19-05 - >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:24:03 -0300 >Subject: Re: North Dakota Crop Formation - 08-19-05 >>From: Paul Anderson - CCRN <paulanderson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 23:58:49 -0700 >>Subject: North Dakota Crop Formation - 08-19-05 >>Thanks to Chris Rutkowski (UFOROM) for the initial report yesterday: >>"Just heard about this site, near Northwood, North Dakota, >>about 30 miles SW of Grand Forks. Story is that a pilot flew > >over this field on Friday, 19 August, and it was bare, but when >>he came back a few hours later, the circles were there." >"A few hours later" sounds a bit sloppy to me. A private pilot >would likely know within ten minutes or so of the time out and >time back. A commercial pilot would know within minutes. Both >have to keep logs noting their time off and time on. There's >also the chance that the pilot missed seeing the crop circle on >the first leg of the flight. What about altitudes and type of >aircraft and flight? Hi Don, You could ask Chris or Nancy for further clarification, the original quote from Chris is exactly how he wrote it to me. This is also, of course, just a very preliminary report, there will be more info in the coming days I am sure, including the critical ground survey of course. Meanwhile, I did just also
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:47:18 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:13:27 -0400 Subject: Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures From: T. Peter Park <tpeterpark.nul> To: forteana.nul Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:42:58 -0700 Subject: [forteana] Jacques Vallee on alien abductions and "medical procedures" Friends, Forteans, Listmates, Jacques Vallee is certainly not a garden-variety smart-ass dogmatic UFO 'skeptdebunker' in the manner of the late Carl Sagan or Philip Klass. Indeeed, his popular 'image' in the ufology community is more that of a 'far-out', occult-leaning ufologist in the John A. Keel mold, offering a high-strangeness blend of UFOs, aliens, fairies, angels, demons, and religious miracles as manifestations of a single vast underlying mega- mystery. However, Vallee also came up with some wonderfully common-sensical reflections on abductions and alleged alien medical or reproductive procedures in Dimensions: A Casebook of Alien Contact (Chicago and New York: Contemporary Books, 1988). Vallee's observations should give pause to avid fans of Budd Hopkins and David M. Jacobs - and to many animal mutilation buffs. At the conclusion of Chapter 9, The Case Against Extraterrestrials, in Dimensions, Vallee wondered about the "medical procedures" reported by so many alleged alien abductees. "What kind of doctors," he asked, "are these, who need to induce such trauma in hundreds of patients to collect a little blood, a few embryos?" [Jacques Vallee, Dimensions, p. 268] "Any doctor today," Vallee pointed out, can "draw one cubic centimeter of blood without leaving a scar or a mark," enabling an analyst even to "determine if the patient used to have a Siamese cat when he was six years old." Molecular biology, still "a science in its infancy," was "already capable of providing incredible amounts of information from minute amounts of human cells." Using the "advanced paralyzing devices they possess," Vallee argued, it "should be simple" for "an extraterrestrial task force" to "raid the blood bank of any modern research hospital," where they would "also find collections of frozen embryos at various stages of development." [Vallee, Dimensions, p. 268] Vallee had the same skepticism about alleged alien hypnotic memory erasure techniques used on supposed abductees - which struck him as being as primitive and clumsy as their medical and reproductive procedures. He wondered "what kind of amateur psychologists" the ufonauts are "if any amateur hypnotist can readily uncover from the witness the details of an abduction that was supposed to be totally erased from his or her mind?" We have, Vallee noted, "mind control drugs that ensure permanent, selective memory loss," and asked, "wouldn't smart extraterrestrials know as much?" [Vallee, Dimensions, p. 268] In Vallee's view, the "interaction remembered by the witnesses," if it "was a real encounter," should be "treated at the symbolic level." It "does not," Vallee felt, "tell us anything about the extraterrestrial origin of the beings." The "idea that they must perform such experiments to enrich their race," Vallee argued, was "merely another contribution to the absurd character of the entire phenomenon" - absurd not in the sense of being non-existent, in Vallee's view, but in the sense of being something other than a series of physical occurrences involving technologically advanced extraterrestrial visitors. [Vallee, Dimensions, p. 269] Yes, the cattle mutilations, too! By Vallee's reasoning, if the "aliens" really need something from cattle, they could easily get it by one or two night-time raids on slaughterhouses. Or else, they could perhaps stage just a couple of mutilations or abductions of cattle, followed by cloning of the bovine cells or tissues specifically making the particular substances they needed! Yes, it is interesting, to say the least, that our age of alien abductions and cattle mutilations seems to have no reports of mysterious break-ins and thefts from blood banks, sperm banks, in vitro fertilization clinics, and slaughterhouses! As both Vallee and I feel, a few raids on blood and sperm banks, fertility clinics, and slaughterhouses should be so much easier, safer, more convenient, more economical, and less risky than hundreds or thousands of human abductions and animal mutilations, with their ever-present twin dangers of themselves being caught or at least seen and their would-be prey escaping! For all such reasons, Vallee felt that "the extraterrestrial theory is not good enough, because it is not strange enough to explain the facts." [Vallee, Dimensions, p. 269] Back in the early 1960's, I once read a story in Astounding Science Fiction about an alien called the "Nipe," somewhat resembling a human-sized praying mantis, that crash-landed on Earth. It proceeded to forage for materials, both inorganic and organic, to help it repair its space-ship. It broke into factories, warehouses, and also hospitals at night to steal the materials it needed. Law-enforcement officers began to notice a peculiar pattern in these break-ins and thefts, and also received occasional garbled, hysterical complaints from people who had seen a "monster" resembling a giant insect. Eventually, the "Nipe" was caught - and discovered to be not truly intelligent, but a sort of specialized "worker ant" of a hive- like insectoid alien race, with the specific genetically programmed function of piloting - and repairing - a spaceship, and hunting for any materials necessary for repairs! Well, we do not seem to have observed epidemics of break-ins similar to the "Nipe's" depredations, which we might expect if the ufonauts _were_ extraterrestrials interested in human and animal tissues, blood, and genetic material!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Ship's Logs? From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:21:12 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:15:40 -0400 Subject: Ship's Logs? ----- From: Peter Hassall <stunts.nul> To: forteana.nul Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:58:50 +1200 Subj: [forteana] Ship's logs? Does anybody know of any (preferably online) depository of ship's logs? Or a physical storage place where requests can be made? I am hoping to locate a copy of the log entry for the date of the Llandovery castle sighting of a huge UFO. But this research request could apply to other UFO, USO, sea monster,and similar fortean events. Getting copies of the original logs for relevant sighting dates could show if some cases were media/literary hoaxes (e.g. no entry at all in the original log) and/or give more detailed information on a case. After all, where do old ship's logs go? Regards, Peter
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: BUFORA Updating Vehicle Interference Project - From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:10:23 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:21:31 -0400 Subject: Re: BUFORA Updating Vehicle Interference Project - >From: Michael Hudson <Michaelwingham.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:38:25 EDT >Subject: BUFORA Updating Vehicle Interference Project >BUFORA are currently working on updating the Vehicle >Interference database previously published in 1979 as a >collection of 428 cases where UFOs were reported to interfere >with the operation of vehicles, engines, or electrical/magnetic >equipment by Falla, Geoffrey, edited by Charles F. Lookwood and >Anthony Pace. >We would appreciate any information you would have on any cases >involving Vehicle Interference full credit will be given to >original sources and a copy of the publication will be sent as >a thank you to all contributors. Hi Michael (and other members of the List) Apologies for the delayed response but I've been rather busy. I'm slightly surprised that your email has not generated any discussion on the List. Perhaps you've received private responses and contributions, or perhaps your email did not indicate sufficiently clearly what assistance is desired. After all, any information you would have on any cases involving Vehicle Interference covers a lot of ground. Is more information needed on cases covered in the 1979 BUFORA publication, or is the updating effort limited to finding references to discussions of additional cases? Is the effort limited to post-1979 cases? What sources have already been investigated? What researchers have been contacted for their input? What databases have already been consulted? Without answers to such questions, it is difficult to know how to assist. You may already be well aware of any points I could make, and I'm not a fan of spending time reinventing the wheel. However, I'm happy to give a few comments to get the ball rolling on this List. Basically, I'd like to show a bit of support for BUFORA efforts given that to a considerable extent the objectives stated on its research webpage (link below) echo my own previously stated views on developing various reference/working documents: http://www.bufora.org.uk/RD/research_projects.htm First things first. In terms of updating the 1979 BUFORA Vehicle Inference publication, for those that do not own that publication it would help to know more about the original version (e.g. (i) the cases already covered, (ii) the type of cases desired, and (iii) the details required for each case). It is much easier to comment on gaps than to start with a blank page. Fortunately, summaries of the 428 cases covered in the 1979 BUFORA catalogue are in fact available online at: http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/catalog/database/buforavehicleinterferencecat .asp However, it appears to me that the summaries at the above website may have been condensed (by Mark Cashman, who would himself be a useful resource for your project and well worth contacting) from fuller material in the BUFORA publication to fit the format adopted in the Temporal Doorway website. Is this right? How much more extensive (if at all) were the summaries in the BUFORA publication? In particular, did the BUFORA publication give any references for each of the incidents? Is there any chance that BUFORA will make the original publication available online so that those of us that want to help update it can see where we are starting from? Next, before conducting a review of the existing literature for further Vehicle Interference cases (or taking the step, which would be even more time and resource intensive, of seeking out vehicle interference cases not already recorded in the existing UFO literature) I'd begin by looking at relevant existing databases and catalogues. These include: (1) general databases which can be searched for vehicle interference cases; and (2) databases consisting entirely, or mainly, of vehicle interference cases. In relation to general databases, I have in mind (a) worldwide databases, and (b) national databases. The obvious worldwide databases include: UFOCAT and Larry Hatch's *U* Database. Both UFOCAT and the *U* Database were discussed (with, I think, contact/purcase details being included) in my outline email at: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/feb/m13-001.shtml UFOCAT - Relevant searches of UFOCAT include searches on the following Sub-Type Codes: 5E - EM Effect encounter reports without landing, 6E - EM Effect landing reports without outside occupants, 7E - EM Effect outside occupant reports without contact, and 8E - EM Effect contact reports. Apart from performing relevant searches of UFOCAT, UFOCAT is supplied with a number of Customised Lists. These are prepared prepared reports of various searches, one of which is entitled Electro-magnetic (EM) Effects. Many (but obviously not all) of these relate to vehicle interference cases. Just to give an idea of the scale of UFOCAT, the printout of the EM Effects Customized List is 75 pages long, with each of those 75 pages containing brief summaries of approximately 20 cases. Larry Hatch's *U* Database - Larry's database contains a matrix of attributes in relation to each report, one of which is fairly and squarely relevant to the BUFORA project. The VEH attribute in row 6 of the matrix relate to cases in which a vehicle is affected, including marks, burns or electo-magnetic effects. (The row 7 attribute of EME relates to electro-Magnetic Effect including those relating to cars, radios, lights, and instruments). Unfortunately, I can't give an indication of the number of cases found by searching Larry's databases for this attribute because I 've been unable to install that database from my old floppy onto the new computers I've recently bought for my office and home. However, Larry's a helpful chap and I'm sure he'd be prepared to give this sort of indication if you ask politely. Ignoring (for now) all the other global and local general databases, I'll turn to the databases focusing on: (a) Catalogues of electromagnetic-effects reports, and/or (b) Catalogues of vehicle interference reports. (a) Catalogues of electromagnetic-effects reports As always given my aversion to reinventing the wheel, when thinking about listing catalogues of electromagnetic-effects I'd start by looking for existing lists of such catalogues. When looking for lists of catalogues relating to various types of cases/evidence, I find it useful to start with the UFO Evidence website and Francis Ridge's Nicap website. In this instance: (i) The UFO Evidence website provides links to various relevant online articles and case listings: http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/emeffects.htm (ii) Francis Ridge's website's also provides a similar list of links to various online articles and case listings: http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/cat3.htm Turning to individual EM databases/catalogues, the ones that I'm aware of include the following: (i) Project 1947 EM Effects Catalog, which is discussed by Mark Cashman at: http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/catalog/emeffect/index.htm The relevant 1101 case summaries are available online at: http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/catalog/database/emeffectscat.asp (ii) Francis Ridge's list of EM effects cases. Available online at: http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/cat3List.htm (iii) NICAP's The UFO Evidence (Volume 1) contains a chronological list of EM cases in Section 8 (Special Evidence) in a subsection entitled Electro-Magnetic (E-M) Effects at pages 73-76. I hope no-one minds if I point out (yet again) that the entirety of The UFO Evidence (Volume 1) is available online, with the relevant chapter appearing at: http://www.nicap.org/ufoe/section_8.htm (iv) As an update to the list in The UFO Evidence (Volume 1) see Richard Hall's discussion in The UFO Evidence: Volume 2 - A Thirty Year Report (2001) (edited by Richard Hall) at pages 247-260 (in Section 7) of the Scarecrow Press hardback edition. (v) A couple of websites purport to have NICAP's Electro-magnetic Effects Associated with Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs) (June 1960) available on them, but I'm afraid that I can't get the document to appear. See: http://www.majesticdocuments.com/official/nicap.php http://www.ufoevidence.org/Files/NICAPReportEMEffectsofUFOs.pdf (vi) Potentially useful for further research is Francis Ridge's bibliography of articles relating to EM effects. It is available online at: http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/3bib.htm (b) Catalogues of vehicle interference reports Turning to the catalogues most directly focused on incidents relevant to the updating of BUFORA's vehicle interference catalogue, again I'd start by looking for lists of relevant databases/catalogues. The UFO Evidence website again has a relevant webpage. See the existing lists of Vehicle Interference catalogues on that website at: http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/vehicleinterference.htm In relation to individual catalogues of vehicle interference reports, I'm aware of the following. (I note in passing that the relatively quick comparison I've made of the cases listed in the following catalogues (and of the vehicle interference cases in the catalogues above) suggests that there is surprisingly limited overlap in the cases listed.): (i) I think the most frequently discussed catalogue of vehicle interference reports is Mark Rodeghier's UFO Reports Involving Vehicle Interference, A Catalogue and Analysis edited by Mimi Hynek and Sanna Hans Longden, (Center for UFO Studies, October, 1981). It is available online at: http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/ufo_reports/rodeghier/toc.html The case summaries within that report are in the section entitled Vehicle Interference Event Summaries at : http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/ufo_reports/rodeghier/1.html http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/ufo_reports/rodeghier/2.html http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/ufo_reports/rodeghier/3.html http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/ufo_reports/rodeghier/4.html That catalogue and analysis is discussed, for example, by: Clark, Jerome in his Strange Skies: Pilot Encounters with UFOs (2003) at page 180 (in Chapter 8) of the Citadel softcover edition. Hendry, Allan in his The UFO Handbook (1979) at page 259 (in Chapter 20) of the Sphere softback edition. Kanon, Gregory M in his The Great UFO Hoax (1997) at page 52 (in Chapter 4) of the Galde Press softcover edition. Randle, Kevin in his Scientific Ufology (1999) at page 210 (in Chapter 8) of the Avon softcover edition. (ii) The next most frequently discussed database is the BUFORA project which is being updated, i.e. Fallas, Geoffrey Vehicle Interference Project edited by Charles F. Lookwood and Anthony Pace, British UFO Research Association, 1979. As mentioned above, 428 case summaries based on BUFORA catalogue available online at: http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/catalog/database/buforavehicleinterferencecat .asp (iii) The only regional catalogue limited to vehicle interference cases that I know is Keith Basterfield's A Catalogue of Australian UFO Vehicle Interference Cases . That catalogue is available online at: http://www.project1947.com/kbcat/kbvehint0505.htm (iv) Richard Haines' has produced several analyses of EM effects on one particular type vehicle, i.e. aircraft. See the 2001 paper entitled A Preliminary Study of Sixty Four Pilot Sighting Reports Involving Alleged Electromagnetic Effects on Aircraft Systems online at: http://www.narcap.org/reports/emcarm.htm A 1992 paper by Richard Haines entitled Fifty-Six aircraft pilot sightings involving electromagnetic effects is available online. See: http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/92apsiee.htm (v) Several papers analyse vehicle interference reports. The most frequently discussed such paper is, I think, Donald Johnson's Effects of position & distance in UFO ignition interference cases (1983. Journal of UFO Studies, (old series volume 3)). That paper is available online at: http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/effectsposition.htm Whilst not including a catalogue of vehicle interference reports, Johnson's paper shows one possible type of analysis of the contents of such a catalogue (and also refers to several previous discussions of such reports). (vi) Similarly, James McCampbell wrote an article entitled UFO Interference with Vehicles and Self-Starting Engines, which was published in MUFON 1983 UFO Symposium Proceedings, at pages 45-59. It is available online at: http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/ufointerf.htm By the way, the full text of James McCampbell's book Ufology (1973) is available free on-line at the following link: http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/ufology.htm Chapter 5 of that book is entitled Electrical interference and includes a section on interference with internal combustion engines. (vii) Finallly, Francis Ridge's bibliography of articles relating to EM effects (referred to above) includes several other aricles relating directly to vehicle interference cases. Quickly glancing through the list at the link below, I've noted the four articles listed beneath the list: http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/3bib.htm UFOS: MORE ENGINE EFFECTS /McCAMPBELL /MUJ-203,04 /3 / VEHICLE INTERFERENCE CASES: A REVIEW /BASTERFIELD /MUJ-178,04 /3 / VEHICLE INTERFERENCE EFFECT |THOMAS |MUJ-233,03/3 / VEHICLE INTERFERENCE: CAUTIONARY COMMENT /JOHNSON /IUR-15-1,19 /3 / There are, of course, a large number of books that have included discussions of reports involving alleged EM effects (quite a few of which discuss alleged vehicle interference cases). I won't attempt to compile a list of such discussions, but if you want to find discussions potentially relevant to the BUFORA project then you could do worse than looking at the pages surrounding those listed in the references in my draft Chronology to the Levelland, Texas incident (which involved reports of interference with car headlights and engines, during the night of 2/3 November 1957 (1957.1102)) or looking at the links to various relevant documents and articles online at: http://www.nicap.org/leveldir.htm. Very few of the (approx 80-90) discussions of the Levelland sighting referred to in the draft Chronology are online. One of the exceptions is the discussion by James E McDonald in the Roush Hearing (the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Science and Astronautics Symposium on Unidentified Flying Objects on 1968.0729) at page 31 of the transcript of the Ninetieth Congress, Second Session, Number 7 and more detail in his prepared statement to the Roush Hearing at page 77. The complete transcript available free online at the following links: http://ncas.sawco.com/ufosymposium/contents.html http://www.project1947.com/shg/symposium/contents.html You may find discussions more focused on discussion of various vehicle interference cases in England by looking at the pages surrounding those cited in the references in my draft Chronology for the alleged truck stop incident involving Carl Farlow on the A338 road between Avon and Sopley (1967.1106). Michael, if you'd like to see the draft lists of references for Levelland and/or Carl Farlow then email me off-list. For a bit of sceptical balance, you may also be interested in the views expressed: (i) by Philip J Klass in his UFOs - Identified (1968) in Chapter 11 (entitled Electromagenetic Effects); (ii) in the Condon Report (Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying Objects, Edward U Condon (Director) and Daniel S Gillmor (Editor) (1969)) at pages 151-161 (in Section 3, Chapter 4 Indirect Physical Evidence, by Roy Craig) of the uncorrected version submitted to the Air Force (with the same page numbering in the 3 volume paperbound edition distributed by the National Technical Information Service, US Department of Commerce), at the few pages leading up to page 108 of the Vision hardback edition (with the same page numbering in the Bantam paperback edition). The first of these editions has the same page numbering as the edition available free online at the following links: http://ncas.sawco.com/condon/text/contents.htm http://www.project1947.com/shg/condon/contents.html Anyway, Michael, I wish you all the best with updating BUFORA catalogue. I hope the above is of some use, or at least prompts others to provide further information.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:11:48 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:23:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Shell >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:11:22 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested >The first thing I noticed was the object doesn't seem to have >picked up the slight jerk of the camera like the other lights >did. "The object" reflects a prejudice that there is something there. Not a sound approach. There is a well know optical aberration of lenses called coma. It is caused by undercorrected spherical aberration, which is quite common in consumer grade lenses.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Just The Stats Ma'am From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:21:08 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:24:42 -0400 Subject: Just The Stats Ma'am Polls and statistics speak for themselves. Gallup, Roper all have some interesting looks at UFOs. More in favor than against. That rubs raw with the news and government which is something that's very interesting. I know many of you have polls and statistics that outline who, what, where, and when and I recall attending several lectures where this info is put right in the lap of the public. Perhaps if we focus on these more and any of your books or papers where one can find these polls and statistics would be a great help. Letting the public know how many of them believe in this or that is calming as it goes hard against the grain of the stereotypes portrayed in the media.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Ouellette From: Ghislain Ouellette <gouellet.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 15:26:22 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:28:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Ouellette >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:20:44 -0400 >Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested >>From: Josh Presseisen <josh.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:20:29 -0400 >>Subject: Photo Analysis Requested ><snip> >>I'm trying to rule out lense flare - I've seen many in my day, >>whether made in photoshop, or from the actual sun - as any >>comparison to other lense flares doesn't seem to match up. >Lense flare? Lens flare. >What I see is very typical lens flare caused by the bright >lights below. The lens exhibits relatively high coma, which is >what gives the flare this characteristic shape. >No mystery here. Have to agreed with Bob, I checked the surrounding of the anomaly and everything looks normal, no tampering with the picture. To me its a lens-flare.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood - From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:52:57 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:08:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood - >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:56:12 -0400 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:26:36 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood >>>From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:05:10 -0700 (PDT) >>>Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood >><snip> >>>Publicizing the results of this work is currently not in the >>>best interest of science; >>I would think that if genuine, unbiased science is being done, >>publicizing every single step of the process would have >>absolutely zero effect on the result. There is far too much >>secrecy in this world, definitely inclusive of ufology. >If unbiased science is being done, then someone should, by now, >refuted my triangulations of distances to the "globes". Said >triangulations place the "Krzysten Arc" for example, about 60 - >80 miles south southwest of Phoenix. Bruce, Your triangulations are refuted by the evidence appearing in the film. It seems like Jim Diletosso's triangulation is more accurate than yours and places the string of lights in front of the Estrella Mountains where we have been telling you they were all along. Fox television technicians prove this in the movie when they took Mike's footage and turned up the gain enough to show the faint outline of the mountain crest above the lights that place the lights over the Gila Bend Indian reservation and in front of the Estrella Mtns and not 60 to 80 miles away near Ajo. There is enough other data in the film to kill the flare theory for good beside the info I gathered from the Air National Guard and the flare manufacturer. Also a flare expert was interviewed in the film and refutes the flare hypothesis. Also, as I verified, the mystery lights had no descending movement as flares do, no smoke, no flare glow, no resemblance to flares period.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: Exopolitics Courses For Fall 2005 - Jamieson From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:53:44 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:11:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Exopolitics Courses For Fall 2005 - Jamieson >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:32:09 -1000 >Subject: Exopolitics Courses For Fall 2005 >Those interested can find out more about the two fall >exopolitics courses at: >http://www.exopolitics.org/Courses.htm >Finally, I believe that those who thoroughly familiarize with >the various issues concerning 'citizen diplomacy with >extraterrestrials' or "political management of the ET Presence" >through courses similar to those I'm conducting, will be best >placed to deal with the challenges that lie ahead as we move >into an era of open disclosure of visiting extraterrestrial >races. As far as us having the answers to the mystery of UFOs, most of us live in a world of uncertainty. You do not, it appears. The detailed, and often clear, picture you offer in your course material (if it's similiar to the content of papers at: http://www.exopolitics.org is based on what a lot of us consider to be flawed stuff. (For example, recent comments on Dan Burisch were a complete waste of your time. George Knapp has already uncovered Burisch's real work history and Burisch has nothing to add - but fiction - to the UFO field.) Therefore, I think you're setting up conditions
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: An Open Question To The List - Hamilton From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:59:46 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:15:10 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Hamilton >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:39:10 -0400 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:54:58 -1000 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List ><snip> >>>You have not established that these allegations are anything but >>>bunk. I established that Lazar didn't go to MIT or Cal >>>Tech..That MWKruvant didn't obtain any of the degrees he >>>claimed. >I wonder if Bob Lazar would agree to take a physics exam >commensurate with his claimed degrees. Eleanor, Regardless of Lazar's expertise in physics, he continues to supply the needs of scientific labs and have contracts with the government and is becoming more successful everyday with his
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:25:02 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:17:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Shell >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:05:40 -0300 >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested >It's time lapse and the camera was jiggled. Wouldn't the flare >be more accentuated, practically washed out, during a time lapse >shot, Bob? Time lapse refers to multiple exposures with a time interval in between. This is just a slow shutter speed. The shape and characteristics of the flare are very standard and predictable, as I said in my earlier two posts. There is nothing there. It is a lens aberration.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Pea Fields Circles In Swift Current From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 13:27:47 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:19:19 -0400 Subject: Pea Fields Circles In Swift Current Two Circles in Pea Fields - Swift Current, Saskatchewan After a couple initial erroneous reports and a few interesting random or other non-flattened type formations in the last few months, the first 'standard' type crop circles for 2005 have been reported near Swift Current, Saskatchewan. Found around August 14 by a local rancher, two circles, 12 metres (39 feet) diameter each, in two separate pea fields approximately 0.6 kilometres (0.37 miles) apart. The circles are also approximately 29 kilometres (18 miles) from the site of a bull calf mutilation, found by the same rancher in the same time period. The mutilation was initially reported to Linda Moulton Howe by the rancher, who also reported the two circles, although he didn't necessarily imply or know of any connection (and neither does CCCRN at this time, for the record). According to the current report archives, this is the first known case of a formation(s) in pea plants in Canada. Currently under investigation by CCCRN Saskatchewan. Further details when available.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: Exopolitics Courses For Fall 2005 - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 13:31:48 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:21:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Exopolitics Courses For Fall 2005 - Hatch >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:32:09 -1000 >Subject: Exopolitics Courses For Fall 2005 >Aloha, >I hope you excuse me for promoting my forthcoming Fall courses >in Exopolitics that start in the week of Sept 5. I think they >are samples of the kinds of courses one will eventually >encounter in graduate University programs once there is open >disclosure of the ET presence. So the courses are a way that >prospective students and the instructor can analyze the >extensive exopolitical data that exists. Now some researchers on >this list will strongly disagree over the validity of >'exopolitical data'. Whistleblower testimonies for example are >routinely ignored by most researchers. Are these courses accredited elsewhere? My studies at SunTan college, CA counted for naught when I transferred for my Bachhanaila (or whatever) to San Hose State Party Institution back in the 1960s. I had to take Modern Music Theory all over again. No complaints here, I finally learned of a modern genius, from Hungary of all places. His name was Bela Bartok. A very good, simple and intelligent man, who lived under a repressive regime. For an easy taste of his genius, try his childrens' etudes called 'Microcosmos'. Best - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:18:02 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:23:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Hatch >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:05:40 -0300 >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested >>From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:20:44 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested >>>From: Josh Presseisen <josh.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:20:29 -0400 >>>Subject: Photo Analysis Requested >><snip> >>>I'm trying to rule out lense flare - I've seen many in my day, >>>whether made in photoshop, or from the actual sun - as any >>>comparison to other lense flares doesn't seem to match up. >>Lense flare? Lens flare. >>What I see is very typical lens flare caused by the bright >>lights below. The lens exhibits relatively high coma, which is >>what gives the flare this characteristic shape. >>No mystery here. >It's time lapse and the camera was jiggled. Wouldn't the flare >be more accentuated, practically washed out, during a time lapse >shot, Bob? Hello Don: _If_ its a photo/camera artifact (as I arm-chair suspect) then camera motion would naturally come out in the wash. If its a genuine flying saucer, something out of vogue these days (no matter how much I still like them) then yes I would expect a little side wash, meaning motion-blur. I don't enjoy saying this, but the clarity of the image and other details, all suggest to me some kind of camera matter. Said differently; I would not go into a courtroom claiming this was evidence of alien visitation. I wish things could be otherwise.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: An Open Question To The List - Goldstein From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 04:16:52 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:24:39 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Goldstein >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:00:22 -0300 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:39:10 -0400 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:54:58 -1000 >>>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >><snip> >>>>You have not established that these allegations are anything but >>>>bunk. I established that Lazar didn't go to MIT or Cal >>>>Tech..That MWKruvant didn't obtain any of the degrees he >>>>claimed. >>I wonder if Bob Lazar would agree to take a physics exam >>commensurate with his claimed degrees. >One would think he might find his diploma and his MS thesis and >tell us the name of his thesis advisor and how he could be going >to Pierce JC in Southern California at the same time as he was >at MIT near Boston. etc etc. ad nauseum.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:18:50 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:26:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Gehrman >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:14:51 -0300 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:31:00 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? <Snip> >>I have no doubt that there are mother-ships and huge "space >>carriers", but we don't have footage their debris, so details >>can't be examined. And huge crafts flying through our sky >>doesn't necessarily mean that they are from other star systems. >>That's just your bias showing. The debris in the AA indicates >>that the civilization we're confronting is more advanced than >>us, but not so much that we can't imagine how these crafts >>operate; and they are vulnerable. There are many clues, if you >>look closely and realize that what you're looking at is really >>what crashed in Nogal Canyon. >I can't find a connection between the AA and reports of huge >high performance craft capable of speeds like 5400 miles per >hour as observed on aircraft radar many years ago over Canada >and 5-7 times the size of a 747 and heading up, up and away. Hi Stan, You made the connection. But you're correct; there is no direct connection between the AA and "huge high performance craft capable of speeds like 5400". My information comes from examining the AA debris footage and one drawing made by the cameraman which shows the craft on the ground. I've concluded that the AA craft was not intended for star travel. Maybe it had a mothership. >Might I suggest that they don't originate on earth, regardless >of the legitimacy of the AA footage? So maybe they are from >local bases on the back side of the Moon, in the asteroid belt >on a moon of Saturn... that still makes them of ET origin Yes I agree. The craft (UFO) could be from anywhere in our solar system but not from other star systems. The humanoid appearance of the AA creature indicates that she originally faced environmental pressures similar to those primates faced and was probably honed by a niche similar to the one humans eventually occupied. >>Your problem is that you still think the AA is a fake or hoaxed >>so you won't take the time to really examine the footage and see >>what's there. >Why is it my problem? You mentioned not a starship and I >suggested they need not be, just be carried here by one. What in >the world does the footage have to do with huge mother ships? Because you brought it up in the first place. I stated quite emphatically that I didn't think that the AA craft was a star ship. You said that maybe it wasn't a starship but that it could have been carried by a mother star ship. I agreed but reminded you that even thought the AA craft might have had a mothership, that didn't mean that it was a star ship. I guess you've agreed
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: North Dakota Crop Formation - 08-19-05 - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:20:05 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:27:52 -0400 Subject: Re: North Dakota Crop Formation - 08-19-05 - Ledger >From: Paul Anderson <paulanderson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:47:08 -0700 >Subject: Re: North Dakota Crop Formation - 08-19-05 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:24:03 -0300 >>Subject: Re: North Dakota Crop Formation - 08-19-05 >>>From: Paul Anderson - CCRN <paulanderson.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 23:58:49 -0700 >>>Subject: North Dakota Crop Formation - 08-19-05 >>>Thanks to Chris Rutkowski (UFOROM) for the initial report yesterday: >>>"Just heard about this site, near Northwood, North Dakota, >>>about 30 miles SW of Grand Forks. Story is that a pilot flew >>>over this field on Friday, 19 August, and it was bare, but when >>>he came back a few hours later, the circles were there." >>"A few hours later" sounds a bit sloppy to me. A private pilot >>would likely know within ten minutes or so of the time out and >>time back. A commercial pilot would know within minutes. Both >>have to keep logs noting their time off and time on. There's >>also the chance that the pilot missed seeing the crop circle on >>the first leg of the flight. What about altitudes and type of >>aircraft and flight? >You could ask Chris or Nancy for further clarification, the original quote from Chris is exactly how he wrote it to me. This is also, of course, just a very preliminary report, there will be more info in the coming days I am sure, including the critical ground survey of course. Meanwhile, I did just also hear of some new circles in pea fields here in Canada (Saskatchewan), as well as a nearby cattle mute, so that will keep us busy also, more details soon. Hi Paul, I don't wish to involve myself to a great degree in this anomally but if there is a need to really nail down the time that this occurred and probably more importantly, the length of time it took to occur, then knowing the times and the point of departure and destination of the flight-and the return, the type of aircraft [this way you get the probable cruise speed] and the winds's speed and direction would all help. Altitude is determined by other factors such as it being commercial or private and aircraft type and airspace restrictions. Since most crop circles are suspected hoaxes, it seems to me that time is of real concern since it would take time to create them by a couple of people; certainly an hour or two in the case of the crop circle in question. Maybe Chris could flesh out the rest.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures - From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:56:56 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:32:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures - >From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:47:18 -0700 >Subject: Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures >From: T. Peter Park <tpeterpark.nul> To: >forteana.nul Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:42:58 -0700 >Subject: [forteana] Jacques Vallee on alien abductions and > "medical procedures" <snip> What if it is that simple though. That these objects are piloted by "'specialized worker ant[s]' of a hive-like insectoid alien race, with the specific genetically programmed function of piloting - and repairing - a spaceship, and hunting for any materials necessary for repairs!"? It need not be insectoid types either though they are common enough in abduction studies as are several other types of creatures. I share Vallee's puzzlement as to why these invasive procedures are performed when we - the supposed sub-intelligences - can find out so much from a single c.c. of blood. I have no problem with super intelligences - Kaku's 10 billion times more intelligent species capable of controlling planetary and star function - populating this universe so far ahead of us in intelligence that we couldn't even comprehend them, unless you want to throw a theological god into the mix. So possibly no longer being corporal they must rely on bio-robotics or reprogrammed "more intelligent species" to do their legwork, whatever that is and for whatever reason. Kaku, on UFOs Under Investigation noted that he would be far more impressed with an alien species argument that described said aliens as looking like octopi or some other none human looking species than say the Nordic Types. But then that opens another argument as to our own origins, meaning that in the end
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: Ship's Logs? - McGonagle From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 17:06:40 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:34:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Ship's Logs? - McGonagle >From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:21:12 -0700 >Subject: Ship's Logs? >----- >From: Peter Hassall <stunts.nul> >To: forteana.nul >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:58:50 +1200 >Subj: [forteana] Ship's logs? >Does anybody know of any (preferably online) depository of >ship's logs? Or a physical storage place where requests can be >made? <snip> Hello Terry/Peter, I can't answer the question, but I am sure that if you use the enquiry facility on the Maritime Museum webste at: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/ They will be able to assist.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 09:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:12:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Groff >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:11:48 -0400 >Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested >>From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:11:22 -0700 (PDT) >>Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested >>The first thing I noticed was the object doesn't seem to have >>picked up the slight jerk of the camera like the other lights >>did. >"The object" reflects a prejudice that there is something there. >Not a sound approach. >There is a well know optical aberration of lenses called coma. >It is caused by undercorrected spherical aberration, which is >quite common in consumer grade lenses. >The shape in the photo is a textbook example of lens flare in a >lens suffering from moderate coma. >Bob Shell OK, OK, maybe 'object' wasn't the best word. It's just that I see something there that didn't exhibit the same jerk of the camera that the other lights did. This, to me, means something
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 The 'Exopolitics Flap' From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:39:58 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:47:54 -0400 Subject: The 'Exopolitics Flap' Last night, on Errol's Strange Days... Indeed program, Stephen G. Bassett, Errol Bruce Knapp, and Victor Viggiani kind of 'squared-off' on the use of the new term Exopolitics. Stephen Bassett was in favour of using that term as a useful "hook" with which to grab public attention to the "truth embargo" imposed largely by the U.S. government. Errol, on the other hand, stated that coming up with yet a new term to add to the jumble of terms already in use in the field of ufology is not a good idea. And further, Errol decried the infusion of ideas into "exopolitics" which he feels are confusing at best, and discrediting at worst. At one point on this list, the term "space brothers" was mentioned. As a member of the general public, I don't find a thing wrong with 'exopolitics'.' Like many other fields of endeavour, it's not unusual to have different sub-fields within the umbrella term. 'Medicine' is a good example. Or 'law'. Ufology has sub-fields too, such as sightings, physical trace cases, detection by instrumentation, and abductions. As recently discussed on the List, I see two clearly separate sub-fields developing within the Exopolitics arena: - The efforts to break the truth embargo and bring about full disclosure of everything government knows about UFOs and ETs (my particular interest) - Discussion about how humanity might relate to ET civilizations, at the point where they establish full public contact. And _any_ field has quacks, medicine again being one example. If someone feels that certain individuals who are carrying out discussion and activity in one of the two exopolitical sub- fields above are promoting disinformation, how does that render the _term_ itself as somehow "bad" or discrediting? I'm thoroughly mystified as to why the term exopolitics causes such emotional reactions. I'm really delighted that people
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:51:50 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:52:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Ledger >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:25:02 -0400 >Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:05:40 -0300 >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested >>It's time lapse and the camera was jiggled. Wouldn't the flare >>be more accentuated, practically washed out, during a time lapse >>shot, Bob? >Time lapse refers to multiple exposures with a time interval in >between. This is just a slow shutter speed. >The shape and characteristics of the flare are very standard >and predictable, as I said in my earlier two posts. There is >nothing there. It is a lens aberration. >Case closed. I don't suppose you would have any photographic examples of the above that I could refer to? "Case closed" or not, I'd to see the " proof" of this coma abberation of the lens causing other lens flares of like images in other examples.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:02:18 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:55:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Ledger >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:18:02 -0700 >Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:05:40 -0300 >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested >_If_ its a photo/camera artifact (as I arm-chair suspect) then >camera motion would naturally come out in the wash. >If its a genuine flying saucer, something out of vogue these >days (no matter how much I still like them) then yes I would >expect a little side wash, meaning motion-blur. >I don't enjoy saying this, but the clarity of the image and other details, all suggest to me some kind of camera matter. >Said differently; I would not go into a courtroom claiming >this was evidence of alien visitation. I wish things could be >otherwise. Hi Larry, Camera matter is probably likely, if not a straight out hoax. I, personally, lean toward the latter. I've asked Bob if he could provide some examples of lens coma resulting in similar lens flare images. The percentage of light in the "flare" doesn't seem to jib with the brightness of the actual image and the "object" doesn't seem to be blurred to the degree of the rest of the image. So I'm in a position here of trying to present a hoax as an explanation but that would be shot down by a lens flare
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: An Open Question To The List - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:22:54 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:57:53 -0400 Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List - Friedman >From: Josh Goldstein <lovolution.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 04:16:52 -0700 >Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:00:22 -0300 >>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List >>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:39:10 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: An Open Question To The List <snip> >>>>>You have not established that these allegations are anything but >>>>>bunk. I established that Lazar didn't go to MIT or Cal >>>>>Tech..That MWKruvant didn't obtain any of the degrees he >>>>>claimed. >>>I wonder if Bob Lazar would agree to take a physics exam >>>commensurate with his claimed degrees. >>One would think he might find his diploma and his MS thesis and >>tell us the name of his thesis advisor and how he could be going >>to Pierce JC in Southern California at the same time as he was >>at MIT near Boston. etc etc. ad nauseum. >Stan, for the benefit of Eleanor White and others, didn't you >say years ago that you spoke with Lazar about physics matters >and that he did not know much? I said that Bob was interviewed by a Journalist from a Berkeley radio station who brought along a Stanford physicist in mufti so to speak. The physicist from time to time asked questions which Bob couldn't answer. The physicist said I would bet you Lazar doesn't show up tomorrow for the rest of the interview. He was right. Lazar was AWOL
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures - From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:23:21 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:59:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures - >From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:47:18 -0700 >Subject: Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures >From: T. Peter Park <tpeterpark.nul> To: >forteana.nul Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:42:58 -0700 >Subject: [forteana] Jacques Vallee on alien abductions and > "medical procedures" >Friends, Forteans, Listmates, >Jacques Vallee is certainly not a garden-variety smart-ass >dogmatic UFO 'skeptdebunker' in the manner of the late Carl >Sagan or Philip Klass. Indeeed, his popular 'image' in the >ufology community is more that of a 'far-out', occult-leaning >ufologist in the John A. Keel mold, offering a high-strangeness >blend of UFOs, aliens, fairies, angels, demons, and religious >miracles as manifestations of a single vast underlying mega- >mystery. However, Vallee also came up with some wonderfully >common-sensical reflections on abductions and alleged alien >medical or reproductive procedures in Dimensions: A Casebook of >Alien Contact (Chicago and New York: Contemporary Books, 1988). >Vallee's observations should give pause to avid fans of Budd >Hopkins and David M. Jacobs - and to many animal mutilation >buffs. >At the conclusion of Chapter 9, The Case Against >Extraterrestrials, in Dimensions, Vallee wondered about the >"medical procedures" reported by so many alleged alien >abductees. "What kind of doctors," he asked, "are these, who >need to induce such trauma in hundreds of patients to collect a >little blood, a few embryos?" [Jacques Vallee, Dimensions, p. >268] >"Any doctor today," Vallee pointed out, can "draw one cubic >centimeter of blood without leaving a scar or a mark," enabling >an analyst even to "determine if the patient used to have a >Siamese cat when he was six years old." Molecular biology, still >"a science in its infancy," was "already capable of providing >incredible amounts of information from minute amounts of human >cells." Using the "advanced paralyzing devices they possess," >Vallee argued, it "should be simple" for "an extraterrestrial >task force" to "raid the blood bank of any modern research >hospital," where they would "also find collections of frozen >embryos at various stages of development." [Vallee, Dimensions, >p. 268] >Vallee had the same skepticism about alleged alien hypnotic >memory erasure techniques used on supposed abductees - which >struck him as being as primitive and clumsy as their medical and >reproductive procedures. He wondered "what kind of amateur >psychologists" the ufonauts are "if any amateur hypnotist can >readily uncover from the witness the details of an abduction >that was supposed to be totally erased from his or her mind?" >We have, Vallee noted, "mind control drugs that ensure >permanent, selective memory loss," and asked, "wouldn't smart >extraterrestrials know as much?" [Vallee, Dimensions, p. 268] >In Vallee's view, the "interaction remembered by the witnesses," >if it "was a real encounter," should be "treated at the >symbolic level." It "does not," Vallee felt, "tell us anything >about the extraterrestrial origin of the beings." The "idea that >they must perform such experiments to enrich their race," Vallee >argued, was "merely another contribution to the absurd >character of the entire phenomenon" - absurd not in the sense of >being non-existent, in Vallee's view, but in the sense of being >something other than a series of physical occurrences involving >technologically advanced extraterrestrial visitors. [Vallee, >Dimensions, p. 269]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:28:54 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 17:03:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Friedman >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:18:50 -0700 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:14:51 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:31:00 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? <snip> >>>Your problem is that you still think the AA is a fake or hoaxed >>>so you won't take the time to really examine the footage and see >>>what's there. >>Why is it my problem? You mentioned not a starship and I >>suggested they need not be, just be carried here by one. What in >>the world does the footage have to do with huge mother ships? >Because you brought it up in the first place. I stated quite >emphatically that I didn't think that the AA craft was a star >ship. You said that maybe it wasn't a starship but that it could >have been carried by a mother star ship. I agreed but reminded >you that even thought the AA craft might have had a mothership, >that didn't mean that it was a star ship. I guess you've agreed >to that. So would you mind reexamining the AA debris footage and >tell us what you see. This beginning to sound like double talk..... Who is the cameraman and how did you get the drawing and how is it you determined that this pile of stuff was or wasn't from the stars? Did it say made by General Motors? My point was that there is no need for the small craft to have
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 19:51:46 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 17:05:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Dickenson >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:18:50 -0700 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:14:51 -0300 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:31:00 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? <snip> >You made the connection. But you're correct; there is no direct >connection between the AA and "huge high performance craft >capable of speeds like 5400". My information comes from >examining the AA debris footage and one drawing made by the >cameraman which shows the craft on the ground. I've concluded >that the AA craft was not intended for star travel. Maybe it had >a mothership. <snip> Just a theoretical suggestion - the feasible inter-stellar propulsion (rather than matter translation) would be an inertia drive - therefore a main ship would use amplified `universal' inertia of distant masses or galaxies, while small craft would have to use a `local inertia' drive opposing only the Earth's mass (hence the falling-leaf motion often described). So - if any inertia drives are used, even only locally, there has to be a mother-ship. Because, although same principle would enable both distant and local travel, it would be impractical (and dangerous) to use either for the `wrong' kind of travel. Cheers Ray D
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 28 Re: Ship's Logs? - Pope From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 20:57:22 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 17:07:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Ship's Logs? - Pope >From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:21:12 -0700 >Subject: Ship's Logs? >From: Peter Hassall <stunts.nul> >To: forteana.nul >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:58:50 +1200 >Subj: [forteana] Ship's logs? >Does anybody know of any (preferably online) depository of >ship's logs? Or a physical storage place where requests can be >made? >I am hoping to locate a copy of the log entry for the date of >the Llandovery castle sighting of a huge UFO. But this research >request could apply to other UFO, USO, sea monster,and similar >fortean events. Getting copies of the original logs for relevant >sighting dates could show if some cases were media/literary >hoaxes (e.g. no entry at all in the original log) and/or give >more detailed information on a case. Deck/Fair Logs for Royal Navy ships are kept, and if you're researching a UFO-related incident involving an RN vessel, you should contact the Ministry of Defence's UFO Project and make a request under the Freedom of Information Act. As with all FOIA requests, it should be as tightly focused as possible, giving the name of the ship concerned, and giving as narrow a window of dates as you can. I don't think this will help with the Llandovery Castle, as she'd apparently been decommissioned by the time of the alleged UFO incident: http://www.merchantnavyofficers.com/unioncastle3.html http://www.red-duster.co.uk/UNION17.htm You'll have to contact the commercial operators: http://www.union-castle-line.com/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:11:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:26:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Lehmberg >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:28:54 -0300 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:18:50 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? <snip> >My point was that there is no need for the small craft to have >come here directly on their own from another solar system since >that job is very likely performed by the big ones.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 Re: Exopolitics Courses For Fall 2005 - Salla From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 12:39:00 -1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:30:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Exopolitics Courses For Fall 2005 - Salla >From: Mike Jamieson <mike.jamieson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:53:44 -0700 >Subject: Re: Exopolitics Courses For Fall 2005 >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:32:09 -1000 >>Subject: Exopolitics Courses For Fall 2005 >>Those interested can find out more about the two fall >>exopolitics courses at: >>http://www.exopolitics.org/Courses.htm >>Finally, I believe that those who thoroughly familiarize with >>the various issues concerning 'citizen diplomacy with >>extraterrestrials' or "political management of the ET Presence" >>through courses similar to those I'm conducting, will be best >>placed to deal with the challenges that lie ahead as we move >>into an era of open disclosure of visiting extraterrestrial >>races. >As far as us having the answers to the mystery of UFOs, most of >us live in a world of uncertainty. You do not, it appears. Mike, there's an easy answer here for you. My professional background is that of a university educator. My goal in teaching university classes was to present to the students a variety of coherent frameworks for analysing different aspects of international politics. In presenting a course syllabus, any competent university professor needs to put together ALL the relevant material and to systematically analyse it. The goal is not to make the students believers of one school of thought or another, but to present the material in a coherent manner so students can decide for themselves what material to accept or reject. We can be uncertain about the specifics of some of the material, but have great confidence in the methodology for analysing the extensive material that is available and grows by the day. I've developed my own methodology for analysing all the available data on UFOs/ETH. The method I developed is described in my very first study paper which essentially tries to categorize and rank the different sources of evidence, and then look at the different conspiracy theories emerging from this data: http://www.exopolitics.org/Study-Paper1.htm So far, I've had no serious objection to my methodology, and any credible political scientist would do something similar in order to better analyse all the material which is vast. Furthermore, my background is different to many veteran UFO researchers who first became interested in UFO sightings and the empirical data for these. I was not interested in the UFO phenemonon until hearing Greer's Disclosure Press Conference in 2001. I found the whistleblower testimonies compelling and began reading as much material I could. In academia, it normally takes about 4-5 years to become proficient in a new area of study assuming one starts from scratch as occurred in my case. So that means that I'm presently still refining my method and learning to better substantiate the sources I use, as well as understand the seminal works in the field. My communications here on UFO UpDates with other researchers here has been very helpful since I've quickly learned what standards and methods they use and can refine my own in response. I don't claim to have certainty when it comes to answers about the UFO phenomenon but am confident that my research method is more appropriate than what is used by many of the veteran researchers. I think the way in which veteran UFO researchers routinely dismiss whistleblower and contactee data is major impediment to better understanding the UFO phenomenon. The general public are seeking answers to the ETH that the present "scientifically rigorous method" of UFO research fails to address. This is why UFO research is at a cross roads and alternative ways of conceptualizing this phenomenon such as Exopolitics are becoming more popular. >The detailed, and often clear, picture >you offer in your course material (if it's >similiar to the content of papers at: >http://www.exopolitics.org >is based on what a lot of us consider to be flawed stuff. (For >example, recent comments on Dan Burisch were a complete waste of >your time. George Knapp has already uncovered Burisch's real >work history and Burisch has nothing to add - but fiction - to >the UFO field.) Therefore, I think you're setting up conditions >for cognitive dissonance, and not helping us "deal with the >challenges ahead". I think the Dan Burisch case is an excellent example of the attitude of many UFO researchers who look for official documentation to substantiate whistleblower testimonies. Burisch claims to have a PhD from SUNY and to have worked on a variety of highly classified Majestic projects. Since Burish does not possess his PhD certificate and SUNY was not able to verify his PhD; and no documentation could be provided to substantiate his alleged classified work with Majestic-12, many researchers simply dismissed his case. This was especially after documents surfaced showing Burisch had worked as a probation office during the time he allegedly completed his PhD at SUNY, and later filed for bankruptcy. The case against Burisch is well summarized in the following: http://www.ufowatchdog.com/burischdirtbag.html However, a number of researchers have continued to investigate the Burisch case and have compiled an impressive database of documentation to substantiate his credentials and testimony. These researchers include Bill Hamilton, Ron Garner and Don Deppeller. Some of this material is now available online and examination of it demonstrates that Burisch does indeed have a PhD in in microbiology after all, see: http://www.tonicvision.tv/burisch/db_credentials2.html This is a significant development since it lends legitimacy to Burisch's claims of working for a covert Majestic project which paid for his SUNY education and ensured no public records were kept. Furthermore, Bill Hamilton has a forthcoming book that extensively examines the Burisch case and substantiates many of Burisch's claims, you can get an idea of Bill's current position by visiting: http://www.astrosciences.info/Aquarius.htm My own conclusion is that the evidence supporting Burisch's claims is credible and well worth analysing from an exopolitical perspective. I've written up my thoughts on the most recent developments concerning a court affidavit completed by Burisch at: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-37.htm Burisch's case is important since it reveals much information about how project managers in Maj-12 classified projects deal with employees and enforce security procedures. There is great information to be mined from the Burisch case for those willing to analyse the available evidence and not dismiss it a priori since official documentation from SUNY or government agencies is not forthcoming. It's not "cognitive dissonance" to get people to analyse cases involving whistleblowers/contactees who offer sincere accounts of their work or experiences to competent investigators; and in many cases have supporting evidence in the form of documentation, witnesses, etc. I think the challenges ahead involves accurately conceptualizing a "Cosmic Watergate" whose scope and depth is badly underestimated by many UFO researchers still seeking indubitable proof.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 20:39:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:32:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Shell >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:51:50 -0300 >Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested >I don't suppose you would have any photographic examples of the >above that I could refer to? I did some Googling, but couldn't find much. There is a definition of coma and a diagram here: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/geoopt/coma.html You will find some more about coma on the second page of this site, including an example of the same shape and type as in the photo in question: http://www.astrosurf.org/lombry/report-aberrations.htm If you have a university library nearby you may be able to find some illustrations in some optics texts. I know what come looks like because I used to test photographic lenses for PhotoPro magazine, and we put them on the optical bench at Optikos Corp. in Cambridge, MA. You can see coma clearly with a point source target. I've also seen it demonstrated at the Leica lens testing facility in Solms, Germany. We don't know the brand and model of camera used to make the images in question, but I assume a consumer camera rather than a pro camera, thus a lens with more optical aberrations. >"Case closed" or not, I'd to see the " proof" of this coma >abberation of the lens causing other lens flares of like images >in other examples. I couldn't find any photos exhibiting coma in my Google search. If you're more patient than me you might be able to find some. I
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Morton From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 21:27:33 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:33:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Morton >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:51:50 -0300 >Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Ledger >>From: <bob.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:25:02 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:05:40 -0300 >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested >>>It's time lapse and the camera was jiggled. Wouldn't the flare >>>be more accentuated, practically washed out, during a time lapse >>>shot, Bob? >>Time lapse refers to multiple exposures with a time interval in >>between. This is just a slow shutter speed. >>The shape and characteristics of the flare are very standard >>and predictable, as I said in my earlier two posts. There is >>nothing there. It is a lens aberration. >>Case closed. >I don't suppose you would have any photographic examples of the >above that I could refer to? >"Case closed" or not, I'd to see the " proof" of this coma >abberation of the lens causing other lens flares of like images >in other examples. Hi Don, I have to ask this: What difference does it make? If this were a photo of a mothership landing on the proverbial White House Lawn, crushing roses, frightening squirrels, and deflecting bullets and missiles from the rooftops, then yes, it would make a difference whether the photo were real, a lens flare, or a hoax. But this is just another photo of something resembling a hovering flying saucer, and gives us no additional information. Learning something from the photo if it's a saucer, seems unlikely. Learning something if it's a hoax is impossible. Learning something if it's a lens flare is also impossible. We're left with a shadow's shadow of nothing. We already know they exist; why fret about whether this particular photo shows a saucer or not? The only difference I can see it making is the fear(?) that it will make the rounds, be grabbed by the mainstream media, and presented to the public as an example of possible gullibility when it was only a lens flare. But they do that sort of thing all the time. The problem is not in the photo or any possible gullibility or misidentification so much as it is with the media and its agenda. You don't hear the media maligning biologists or veterinarians simply because some joker put horns on a mounted rabbit, called it a Jackalope, and nailed the thing to a bar wall. No one on this List has yet confirmed it as a saucer, so if interviewed by the press, they can say something like, "I don't know what it is, but at least one expert in photography has pronounced it to be a common lens flare, and a photoshop expert has found no evidence of tinkering. So it's probably a lens flare. I'll take their word for it."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood - From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 00:04:28 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:35:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood - >From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:52:57 -0700 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:56:12 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood >>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:26:36 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood >If unbiased science is being done, then someone should, by now, >refuted my triangulations of distances to the "globes". Said >triangulations place the "Krzysten Arc" for example, about 60 - >80 miles south southwest of Phoenix. >Your triangulations are refuted by the evidence appearing in the >film. It seems like Jim Diletosso's triangulation is more >accurate than yours and places the string of lights in front of >the Estrella Mountains where we have been telling you they were >all along. I have not seen Dilettoso's triangulation. If you are correct, then his triangulation should be published as a map along with information on how he determined the sightings lines from the locations of the three people who got videos, Krzysten, Kitei and Rairdon. >Fox television technicians prove this in the movie >when they took Mike's footage and turned up the gain enough to >show the faint outline of the mountain crest above the lights >that place the lights over the Gila Bend Indian reservation and >in front of the Estrella Mtns and not 60 to 80 miles away near >Ajo. I don't recall ever seeing the mountain crest. If this is correct it certainly wold be important. I wonder how they could get that anyway, considering that there was no backlighting of the mountains. Are you talking about the TV show that responded to the Discovery channel documentary analysis of the K video using the analysis by cognitech? Oddly enough, if it is true that the lights videotaped by Krszysten were in front of the Estrella range, then they weren't the lights videotaped by Kitei or by Rairdon because the sighting lines from Kitei and Rairdon crossed the Estrella range far south of where the Krzysten sighting line crossed the Estrellas, (As closely as I could determine, the same is true for Tom King's video sighting direction .) >There is enough other data in the film to kill the flare theory >for good beside the info I gathered from the Air National Guard >and the flare manufacturer. Also a flare expert was interviewed >in the film and refutes the flare hypothesis. >Also, as I verified, the mystery lights had no descending > >movement as flares do, no smoke, no flare glow, no resemblance >to flares period. I don't know what other data you refer to. As I showed in my analysis, the "globes of light" were not stationary. They moved downward a speeds comparable to falling flares (with parachutes) and they also moved to the left - to the east - consistent with the prevailing winds at the time. Also, when they appear they "fade in" and when they disappear (without being blocked by a mountain ridge) they fade out. They last many minutes, the longest ones up to about 5 mintues.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 Who Ya Gonna Call? From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 23:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:36:39 -0400 Subject: Who Ya Gonna Call? List, I was contacted by a lady in Vancouver and she's looking for someone to investigate some paranormal activity in her home. She didn't indicate the nature of the activity but I told her I would try to put her in contact with someone.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 Gold Coast AUFORN Public Meeting From: Diane Harrison <auforn.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:28:55 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:42:07 -0400 Subject: Gold Coast AUFORN Public Meeting AUFORN Public meeting this coming Friday night. Gold Coast: Southport Community Center First Friday of every second month: September 2nd Location: Lawson Street Start Time: 7.30 p.m finish 10.30 pm Admission: $7.00 Topic: UFO information UFOs around Australia UFOs around the world. Guest Speaker: Brian the crystal man with give a talk on "Crystals and their healing powers". And More: Alien Abductions & implants, a review. Dr Roger Leir, real footage of implant removal. We hope to see you there. For more details contact Robert: 07 55487205 - 0427164677 or call Dahl on the coast 07 55303221 or email auforn.nul or ufologist.nul For more information on Lectures and Public meetings visit: http://www.hypermax.net.au/~auforn/meetings.html ******************************************** Regards Diane Harrison The Australian UFO Research Network Australian Skywatch Director http://www.auforn.com P.O Box 738
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 Spanish UFOs 1990? From: Guy Reynolds <guidos942.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:40:11 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:46:18 -0400 Subject: Spanish UFOs 1990? I have an old colleague who had a pretty upsetting UFO experience in 1990. Does anyoney have any information about UFO activity between the island of Mallorca and the Spanish coast, off Alicante, between
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 Is There A UFO Freeway Above Earth? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:51:50 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:51:50 -0400 Subject: Is There A UFO Freeway Above Earth? Source: KOMO-TV - Seattle, Washington http://www.komotv.com/stories/38802.htm August 27, 2005 Is There A UFO Freeway Above Earth? By Corwin Haeck SKAGIT COUNTY - "We are not alone." UFO buffs have been saying so for decades. But now a Mount Vernon man says you don't have to believe in aliens. You can see their ships any night of the week with your own eyes. Ted Anderson says 50 miles above the earth, there's a veritable UFO expressway he calls the UFO Freeway Portal Location. "Myself and thousands of friends have been watching it since 1968," says Anderson. "Motherships come from other worlds to drop off their planetary ships to come to Earth." Where are they from? What's their purpose? Anderson can only speculate. "This is a security force created by some super being organization or civilization." He believes these ships are standing guard, literally protecting us from hostile aliens. And he says if you get out of the city and gaze up south of the Big Dipper, you can see the ships for yourself with the naked eye. "These red ships, they're there constantly." Anderson has created two Power Point presentations to help
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 Colorado Is Hub For Hush-Hush Aerospace Industry From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:58:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 07:58:13 -0400 Subject: Colorado Is Hub For Hush-Hush Aerospace Industry Source: The Casper Tribune - Casper, Wyoming http://tinyurl.com/7hdab Sunday, August 28, 2005 Colorado Is Hub For Hush-Hush Aerospace Industry By Roger Fillion Scripps Howard News Service AURORA, Colo. -- Call it the Area 51 of the Denver region. It's where hundreds of people are busy doing secretive work for Uncle Sam and who-knows-what other customers. You won't read about these high-tech, cloak-and-dagger projects in the newspaper or see them on the nightly news. Some participating in activities there don't return a reporter's calls, and they want little publicity. To be sure, this local version of Area 51 doesn't have a questionable reputation for performing experiments on the bodies of space aliens, as does the super-secret Air Force test center in the Nevada desert. What this locale does have is nearly 300,000 residents, numerous parks, golf courses and a mayor. Welcome to Aurora. At times a butt of local jokes, the 144-square-mile city actually is home to an aerospace-defense industry that's been generating jobs at a rapid clip. Much of the work is stamped "classified." Not even Aurora's top elected official knows exactly what's going on inside his city's borders. Mayor Ed Tauer, in fact, likes to joke to local aerospace- defense execs: "I have no idea what you're doing. But I'm damn glad you're doing it here." Eleven of these companies are known to have operations in Colorado's third-largest city. They are big ... and small: Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, Merrick and Paragon Dynamics, to name a few. Employees of these companies crunch and transmit satellite data that military brass and civilians can use to make tactical decisions. Some integrate computer systems and write software related to fighting terrorism. Others develop software that controls orbiting satellites. Still others design sophisticated headquarters for such customers as the U.S. Army Space Command in Colorado Springs. These 5,000-plus workers occupy a vital chunk of the Aurora economy. "Outside of retail, I would say the largest industry we have now is aerospace and aerospace-related," said Paul Tauer, who served as mayor from 1987 to 2003 before his son took charge. Aurora's mother ship, so to speak, is Buckley Air Force Base, a sprawling 3,200-acre facility on the city's outskirts. Those inside Buckley's guarded walls rely on a global constellation of spy satellites to keep an eye out for hostile missile launches around the globe. As a key military outpost, Buckley plays a big role in nurturing Aurora's aerospace industry. "Many of the satellite operations that go on there make Aurora a prime spot for aerospace operations," said Douglas Hartmann, CEO of Paragon Dynamics, an Aurora company itself cloaked in secrecy. The state has the No. 4 space economy in the nation with more than 142,500 jobs, according to recent data. The annual payroll totals $9.7 billion. Chalk it up to an expanding federal defense budget, particularly in the post-Sept. 11 era. Also, officials at the Aurora Economic Development Council have been busy wooing and keeping aerospace- related companies and their higher-paying jobs. Consider the case of Raytheon, Aurora's largest private employer, with 2,600 people. That's up about 600 since the start of 2003. And this year the Waltham (Mass.)-based aerospace- defense contractor unfurled plans to expand the company's already big Aurora footprint by adding a 150,000-square-foot building to house up to 750 employees. About 70 percent of the work done there is classified, but the work involves mainly ground-control systems that control civilian and military satellites. A 2002 contract for $1 billion was for building ground systems for the nation's new weather-satellite system. Northrop's approximately 1,000 Aurora employees perform sensitive work: Engineers and scientists develop algorithms and data-management techniques to collect and analyze data for military and spy operations. Its work force has expanded 30 percent in the past two years. Aurora was little more than a prairie outpost when the East Colfax Trust Co. platted the subdivision in 1889. Former Mayor Paul Tauer recalled Aurora as "a nice homey town" when he bought a house there in 1962. Retail was Aurora's dominant business at the time, with J.C. Penney, Woolworth's and grocers dotting the landscape. Many roads were dirt. An early aerospace tenant was Stanley Aviation, which relocated to Aurora from Buffalo, N.Y., in 1954. Founder Robert Stanley, a Navy test pilot, secured land with access to the former Stapleton Airport. (The adventurous Stanley died in a 1977 plane crash in the Bermuda Triangle.) Another early tenant was Merrick & Co., an engineering and architectural firm that serves the military. It also supplies high-tech geographic and mapping information. Sears Merrick co- founded the company in 1955 and relocated it to Aurora from Denver in 1973. The roots of nearby Buckley Air Force Base date to World War II. The base was named after 1st Lt. John Buckley, a World War II flier from Longmont. In 1941, Denver donated land to the War Department. The next year, a $7.5 million deal was signed to build 700 structures. Buckley has carried various names, including Denver Naval Air Station. It was renamed Buckley Air Force Base in 2000 and has been growing. More than 10,000 military and civilian types work there. In contrast to Hughes, Raytheon has sought to reach out to the local community, although much of the company's work remains off-limits to the public. "It's more of a public organization and much more engaged with the community," such as tutoring math and science in local schools, said Raymond Kolibaba, Raytheon vice president for space systems and the top executive for the company's Aurora operations. But that doesn't mean Aurora's aerospace-defense companies are throwing open their doors to the public. Asked how much of his company's Aurora activities are classified, Boeing spokesman Joseph Tedino fired back a two-word e-mail: "Nearly all." By the numbers What we know about Aurora, Colo.'s cloak-and-dagger industry: * 11 -- Number of aerospace-defense companies known to have operations in Aurora. * 5,000+ -- Number of people the companies employ
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 Now You See 'Em Now You Don't From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:06:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:06:04 -0400 Subject: Now You See 'Em Now You Don't Source: Terry Hansen's MissingTimes.Com http://www.themissingtimes.com/press.xhtml The Missing Times News Media Complicity In The UFO Cover-Up Now You See 'Em, Now You Don't How the U.S. government moved UFOs off the front page. By Terry Hansen Beginning in the late 1940s, thousands of reports of unidentified flying objects (UFOs) spilled onto the front pages of newspapers across the United States, much to the alarm of federal government officials who could provide no clear explanation as to what was taking place. In December 1952, H. Marshall Chadwell, assistant director of scientific intelligence, sent a memo to the CIA director warning that "unexplained objects at great altitudes and traveling at high speeds in the vicinity of major U.S. defense installations are of such nature that they are not attributable to natural phenomena or known types of aerial vehicles." An early intelligence estimate concluded UFOs were from outer space, but this alarming conclusion was quickly squelched by Air Force Chief of Staff General Hoyt S. Vandenberg who ordered all copies of the estimate burned. Many early UFO reports came from commercial airline pilots with extensive World War II flight experience. Some of these reports found their way into newspapers across the country, creating a sensation bordering on hysteria. In 1953, a Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) panel met to discuss what could be done about the situation. The panel�s chairman was Dr. H.P. Robertson, a top U.S. scientific-intelligence expert. After a brief discussion of some of the more heavily publicized cases, the "Robertson Panel," as it has come to be called, recommended what was effectively a domestic propaganda campaign of "training and debunking." The CIA, through its various media assets, intended to strip UFOs of the prominence they had achieved by casting doubt on the credibility of witnesses. Meanwhile, the government took measures to silence airline pilots. Under a document called JANAP 146, UFO reports were classified as vital intelligence data which pilots were required to report to military officials. Once such reports had been filed, it became illegal for pilots to talk about their UFO sightings with news reporters. To make certain the pilots kept quiet, the Air Force pressured airline companies to keep their employees silent. Hundreds of pilots protested this censorship but, in the end, decided it was better to keep their lucrative jobs than their civil liberties. The U.S. government also worked quietly behind the scenes to discredit ground-based UFO witnesses. In 1966, during a period of especially intense UFO activity across the nation, CBS TV joined the CIA�s battle for public mind share. As part of its "CBS Reports" documentary series, the prestigious TV network broadcast UFOs: Friend, Foe or Fantasy?, narrated by Walter Cronkite. The famous newsman told the American public that all UFO sightings, though they appeared mysterious at first, in fact had prosaic explanations. In short, CBS claimed, there was nothing to worry about. Most of the CBS program�s content was blatantly false and misleading, mainly because it had been supplied with help from a member of the CIA�s Robertson Panel, Dr. Thornton Page. (Page later confided his role in the CBS production to a CIA associate in personal correspondence discovered by sociologist Michael Swords in the Smithsonian Institution�s archives. Cronkite, via CBS, has declined to comment.) What CBS also didn�t tell the public, perhaps with good reason, was that UFOs were a far more serious matter than the U.S. government wanted Americans to know. In fact, they were a vital national-security problem. About the time CBS was telling the public that UFOs were nothing more than a popular delusion, some of these "delusions" were hovering over Minuteman nuclear missile sites in Montana and elsewhere. On March 16, 1967, glowing disk-shaped objects evidently disabled some 20 nuclear missiles near Great Falls, according to former Air Force missile officers. (Although sworn to secrecy at the time, the officers have since gone public. Their testimony is supported by Air Force documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act.) Similar events played out again in 1975 when UFOs revisited the area around Great Falls, often hovering over Minuteman missile sites, a fact openly acknowledged by an Air Force spokesman at the time. The sensational story was widely reported by Montana newspapers but ignored by national news organizations, even though the sightings continued for several months. How many other leading news organizations have cooperated with the covert CIA debunking program is unknown. Although the CIA admits planning such a program, it has given few details. Many leading news organizations maintained close working relationships with the CIA during this period, however, especially the New York Times. So perhaps it is not surprising that a content analysis of New York Times UFO news coverage shows Times coverage became progressively more slanted against UFO reality in the years following the Robertson Panel�s recommendations. One newspaper that was always eager to cover UFOs was the National Enquirer. The Enquirer had been founded in the early 1950s by Gene Pope, a 25-year-old former CIA psychological warfare division employee with the modern equivalent of $1.6 million burning a hole in his pocket. This raises the obvious question about the true reason for the often-ludicrous headlines UFO stories received in the Enquirer�s pages. The CIA wanted to debunk UFOs and the Enquirer�s coverage certainly contributed substantially to this goal. Was this coincidence or design? Answering this question definitively is hard because government records about Pope remain classified. By 1975, after decades of government spin control, the elite U.S. news media had pretty much agreed to stop chasing the UFO story. The Air Force had declared UFOs unimportant and physicist Edward Condon, a former weapons scientist, then at the University of Colorado, had said UFOs were total nonsense (over the objections of his research staff, some of whom quit in protest over his biased stance). Today, UFOs are commonly the stuff of popular culture but almost never treated as a topic of serious news, at least among the elite news organizations. Even the so-called alternative news media steer clear of the topic. Dr. Robertson could hardly have dreamed it would all work out so well.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 8 In 10 Say Aliens Real From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:35:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:35:54 -0400 Subject: 8 In 10 Say Aliens Real Source: The Daily Mirror - London, UK http://tinyurl.com/9kdoo 29 August 2005 8 In 10 Say Aliens Real Almost 80 per cent of us believe in aliens - and we think Nelson Mandela would best represent Earth in a close encounter. One in 15 people think they have seen a UFO, with most sightings coming from the North West, according to the Science Museum in London. It will host a new exhibition, the Science of Aliens, from October.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 Nonbeliever Probes 'Alien Encounters' From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:42:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:42:45 -0400 Subject: Nonbeliever Probes 'Alien Encounters' Source: The Boston Herald - Boston, Massachusetts http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=99952 Sunday, August 28, 2005 [Picture - Will Bueche, one of the subjects interviewed by Susan Clancy, claims aliens visited him.] Nonbeliever Probes 'Alien Encounters' By Jessica Heslam His last alien encounter occurred two years ago. Will Bueche said he was sleeping in his apartment when a small pair of bone-white creatures nudged him awake. "They appeared and held my hands in such a physical and griping way," said Bueche, 36, who lives in the Cambridge area. "The message was that they were real." Bueche is among millions of Americans who believe they've had an alien encounter. He was also interviewed by Harvard psycologist Susan Clancy for her new book, "Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped by Aliens." The book is set to hit stores in October. Clancy says there's no evidence that people are being abducted and experimented on by aliens. In fact, Clancy says she isn't even interested in aliens and has become a "reluctant scholar of alienology." What interested Clancy was that there was a group of people that had created "false memories." She wanted to understand more about how and why they created them. There's two types of believers, said Clancy, who has spoken to 100 in the last five years: those who suspect they were abducted and those who have vivid memories of it."Usually, people are looking to explain some sort of strange or unusual or unpleasant experience that has happened to them," Clancy said during a telephone interview from Nicaragua, where she is doing research. People want to know why they feel depressed, why they woke up in the night feeling terrified, why they have sexual problems, why they have strange marks on their bodies, why they have difficulty in relationships and so on, she said. Being abducted by aliens is a growing explanation people latch onto to explain unpleasant things. "For better or for worse, being abducted by aliens is a culturally available explanation for why we feel the way we do," Clancy said. During her research, Clancy, 36, found that people get abduction memories by undergoing some form of hypnosis or guided imagery therapy.The abductees were high-functioning, educated people with jobs and families, she said. The only common thread was that they were more creative, imaginative and fantasy-prone than others. "There is no data that indicates they are any more likely than the rest of us to suffer from any psychological disorders," Clancy said. Clancy doesn't tell her subjects she doesn't believe in alien abductions unless they ask her opinion when the study is done. Clancy's response is met with anger, a sarcastic smile or simply ignored. Bueche says the data Clancy has collected is valuable, but he doesn't agree with her conclusions. "I believe people have had alien encounters and experiences,"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 Teachers Spot 'Spy Plane' From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:46:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:46:59 -0400 Subject: Teachers Spot 'Spy Plane' Source: The Sunday Sun - Newcastle, Durham, UK http://tinyurl.com/7hzvh Aug 28 2005 Teachers Spot 'Spy Plane' By The Sunday Sun A mysterious cone-shaped object has been spotted hovering over houses in the North leading to speculation it was either a UFO or a spy plane. It was seen for five minutes above Carlisle before disappearing out of sight. UFO monitor Chris Parr, who is investigating the sighting, revealed he was alerted by two teachers. He said: "They were having their breakfast about 8.30am when they saw a silver object in the sky outside their kitchen window. "They thought it was about 100 metres or so above them and described it as cone- shaped. "The object was making a silent and fluid motion across the sky. They were adamant it was not a plane and I think it gave them a bit of a fright." Chris believes it is some sort of a spy plane and investigators are linking the sighting to the famous Rendlesham Forest case in 1980 where a "glowing" triangular object was seen by US Air Force police in the woods, near RAF Woodbridge in Suffolk.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 Northwood Abuzz About Crop Circles From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:53:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:53:00 -0400 Subject: Northwood Abuzz About Crop Circles Source: The Grand Forks Herald - Grand Forks, North Dakota http://tinyurl.com/9both Sat, Aug. 27, 2005 Rona Johnson Column Northwood Abuzz About Crop Circles Crop circles? I bet you never thought you'd see those words appear in one of my columns. Or, maybe you did. Either way, crop circles in a grain field just south of the Northwood Municipal Airport have caused a lot of commotion in the Northwood, N.D., area. The question that's on everyone's mind is, are the crop circles the work of aliens or hooligans? Or, was it the work of Mother Nature? Gary Butz, a retiree and airplane pilot, took to the sky in his Cherokee 140 when he heard about the crop circles to get a better look. He brought a friend along to take pictures of the phenomenon. He believes the crop circles showed up Sunday morning, but others say the crop circles appeared as early as Friday of last week. "I'm not saying this is legit," he said. "I'm not saying it isn't." But curiosity got the best of him and he went out to the field to measure the circles. He paced the largest circle and determined it was 66 feet in diameter. "Being a disbeliever (in aliens, that is), I was looking for a stake mark in the middle of the circle," Butz said. But he didn't find anything that looked like a stake had been pounded in the ground. Because the circles are perfectly round, Butz figured whoever, or whatever, created them would have needed to stake out the center and use something that was about 33 feet long to smash down the grain. Doesn't make sense Brian Erickson who rents the field where the circles appeared, doesn't understand, if the circles were created by aliens, why did they land in his field? "If I was an alien, I wouldn't have landed in a wheat field, I would have landed on the airport runway," he said. Erickson, who harvested the field but left a buffer zone around the crop circles, isn't saying that it was aliens who made the circles, but he's perplexed. "They are perfectly round, just like if you took out a tape measure," he said. "How do you flatten it to keep it from popping back up?" Erickson said he and his hired hand joked that they should look over their shoulders for aliens as they harvested the field. "But we didn't see anything," he said. Grady Thorsgard, another Northwood area farmer, also doesn't want to believe that it was aliens that created the crop circles. He's leaning more towards humans or Mother Nature, in the form of some kind of twister. "People say that nature couldn't do it, but I think that God's got a sense of humor too," he said. Penny Altendorf like everybody else, has no idea how the crop circles were formed, but she's just as curious as the next person. Altendorf, whose husband owns Northwood Aero-Spray at the airport, did the same thing that I did when I heard about the crop circles - jumped on the Internet. And after reading several articles on crop circles, neither one of us feels we are experts in the field. "Everyone has their own theory," she said. "It's just there, whether it happened on its own or someone did it." Butz doesn't care how the crop circles were formed, but as a member of the airport board, he's just happy to see all the attention the crop circles have attracted. "I'm on the airport board and I want more people to come out here and fly," he said. "Uh, oh, now it sounds like I did it. But if you knew me you'd know that I'm too lazy to do that."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Presseisen From: Josh Presseisen <josh.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:29:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:33:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Presseisen It may be a little too late in the thread, but for what its worth, the image is not a hoax. Its either a photographic anomaly or a UFO. The witness did not see the object before photographing it. She found it after downloading the photos to her computer. I'm working on obtaining the other images that were shot the same night that did not contain the anomaly. On the lense flare side of things - I don't believe that I have seen a lense flare that had perspective before. Lense flares usually face the camera, are splayed out in multiples, and are circular, not elliptical. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that one. Also, it looks as if the "object" is in the sky has some atmospheric or fog effects on it. Unfortunately, with just one photo, there is no way to verify anything without something physical, or a witness report. I just wanted to get everyone elses take on the photo, because I do not believe it is a lense flare - and its a fairly high resolution image.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood - From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 06:00:06 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:36:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood - >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 00:04:28 -0400 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood >>From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:52:57 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood <snip> >>If unbiased science is being done, then someone should, by now, >>refuted my triangulations of distances to the "globes". Said >>triangulations place the "Krzysten Arc" for example, about 60 - >>80 miles south southwest of Phoenix. >>Your triangulations are refuted by the evidence appearing in the >>film. It seems like Jim Diletosso's triangulation is more >>accurate than yours and places the string of lights in front of >>the Estrella Mountains where we have been telling you they were >>all along. >I have not seen Dilettoso's triangulation. If you are correct, >then his triangulation should be published as a map along with >information on how he determined the sightings lines from the >locations of the three people who got videos, Krzysten, Kitei >and Rairdon. >>Fox television technicians prove this in the movie >>when they took Mike's footage and turned up the gain enough to >>show the faint outline of the mountain crest above the lights >>that place the lights over the Gila Bend Indian reservation and >>in front of the Estrella Mtns and not 60 to 80 miles away near >>Ajo. >I don't recall ever seeing the mountain crest. If this is >correct it certainly wold be important. I wonder how they could >get that anyway, considering that there was no backlighting of >the mountains. Are you talking about the TV show that responded >to the Discovery channel documentary analysis of the K video >using the analysis by cognitech? Yes, I knew this was done, but had not seen it until the movie. Cognitech had moved the lights in the video, that is monkeyed with the K video to prove their case. Krszysten recognized this when he saw the marker light on the left moved further left. I had noticed how they left out the lowest lights on the right. >Oddly enough, if it is true that the lights videotaped by >Krszysten were in front of the Estrella range, then they weren't >the lights videotaped by Kitei or by Rairdon because the >sighting lines from Kitei and Rairdon crossed the Estrella range >far south of where the Krzysten sighting line crossed the >Estrellas, (As closely as I could determine, the same is true >for Tom King's video sighting direction .) Remember, I was there with Tom King with my own video camera and the first light (the double light on the far left in the K video) lit up at 9:45 and appeared through binoculars to be on the side or front of the mountain, but we did not have our cameras so we ran down to the car to retrieve them. By the time we set up I found my camera battery had burned out so Tom did the taping. The double light re-lit in the same spot at about 10 pm just before the rest of the array appeared. I then looked through Tom's telescope at the lights and noticed they were perfectly round without a corona. I scanned for planes and evidence of flares and there was none in view. We had some moonlight too. I will have to write to Jim to send me the triangulation he did from the 3 or 4 camera positions as I do not have a copy. I believe he included the Rairdon sightline, but if differs from yours. I do know for sure these lights were not flares and did not match the characteristics of the flares mentioned in the FOIA docs I received from the Air National Guard nor did it match the number of flares they released on that night (which was close to 60 LUU-2 magnesium flares). The Air Guard tried to re-enact their flare drop in 2000 and the video shows obvious flares, not even the same color or shape and drifting sideways back and forth as a flare does when hanging from a chute. The orbs we saw
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 Re: Who Ya Gonna Call? - Hayes From: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:00:15 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:40:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Who Ya Gonna Call? - Hayes >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 23:39:57 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Who Ya Gonna Call? >List, >I was contacted by a lady in Vancouver and she's looking >for someone to investigate some paranormal activity in >her home. She didn't indicate the nature of the activity >but I told her I would try to put her in contact with >someone. >Does anyone have any recommendations? Hi Terry, I've had a word with Brian Vike <hbccufo.nul> and he has a contact who does this sort of investigation. If you care to write to him with the details he will do the rest for you. Best wishes, John Hayes webmaster.nul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 29 Re: Ship's Logs? - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:26:56 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:43:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Ship's Logs? - Rogerson >From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:21:12 -0700 >Subject: Ship's Logs? >----- >From: Peter Hassall <stunts.nul> >To: forteana.nul >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:58:50 +1200 >Subj: [forteana] Ship's logs? >Does anybody know of any (preferably online) depository of >ship's logs? Or a physical storage place where requests can be >made? >I am hoping to locate a copy of the log entry for the date of >the Llandovery castle sighting of a huge UFO. But this research >request could apply to other UFO, USO, sea monster,and similar >fortean events. Getting copies of the original logs for relevant >sighting dates could show if some cases were media/literary >hoaxes (e.g. no entry at all in the original log) and/or give >more detailed information on a case. >After all, where do old ship's logs go? Surviving merchant navy log books for this period are held at the National Archives at Kew, along with crew lists. The NA however reports that usually only those with genealogical information (births, marriages and deaths at sea) have survived, the rest were discarded. The NA has some passenger lists for the Llandovery Castle but not for this voyage. See http://tinyurl.com/aakd5
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 30 Re: Spanish UFOs 1990? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:30:36 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:55:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Spanish UFOs 1990? - Hatch >From: Guy Reynolds <guidos942.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:40:11 +0000 >Subject: Spanish UFOs 1990? >I have an old colleague who had a pretty upsetting UFO >experience in 1990. >Does anyoney have any information about UFO activity between >the island of Mallorca and the Spanish coast, off Alicante, >between February and early May 1990. Hello Guy: I do have this gem, but not much else given the time and place: #15856: 1990/02/14 21:30h 03:00E 39:39N 3333 WEU SPN BLR SINEU,MALLORCA: 2/TRUCK: LUMn RECTANGLE HVRS:DLT THEN A SCR LAND in TREES BENEATH. Ref# 194 LUMIERES dans la NUIT.(LDLN France) Issue No.303 ...and I can't vouch for that, only cite the reference. There was a famous misidentified rocket re-entry in that area, probably a different era, and definitely pinned down as a soviet booster. For those particular months. Belgium as much busier.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 30 Re: Spanish UFOs 1990? - Feindt From: Carl Feindt <waterufo.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:34:15 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:59:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Spanish UFOs 1990? - Feindt >From: Guy Reynolds <guidos942.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:40:11 +0000 >Subject: Spanish UFOs 1990? >I have an old colleague who had a pretty upsetting UFO >experience in 1990. >Does anyone have any information about UFO activity between >the island of Mallorca and the Spanish coast, off Alicante, >between February and early May 1990. Hello Guy, UFOCAT PRN 124494 - Lumieres dans la Nuit #303 Feb. 14, 1990 SINEU, MALLORCA Luminous rectangular object hovers, delta, then a disc landed in trees underneath rectangle.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 30 Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:24:53 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:06:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? - Gehrman >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 15:28:54 -0300 >Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:18:50 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:14:51 -0300 >>>Subject: Re: Harvard Exorcising Its UFO Demons? >>>Because you brought it up in the first place. I stated quite >>emphatically that I didn't think that the AA craft was a star >>ship. You said that maybe it wasn't a starship but that it could >>have been carried by a mother star ship. I agreed but reminded >>you that even thought the AA craft might have had a mothership, >>that didn't mean that it was a star ship. I guess you've agreed >>to that. So would you mind reexamining the AA debris footage and >>tell us what you see. >This beginning to sound like double talk..... Stan, I'm sorry if I've been confusing. You made an important point and I was trying to elaborate. I agree with you that the AA craft could have come from a mothership. But a "starship" is not a possibility since travel between stars isn't possible, and hasn't been accomplished by any civilization, anywhere, under any circumstances, as far as we know. Kaku's pipe dreams will never become reality. In this case, ( travel between stars) our reach far exceeds our grasp. We can believe, on faith, that star travel is possible, but there is no evidence. Just as there is not a crumb of evidence for time travel, ghosts, god, or extra dimensions that we can access. We should work with what we have and what we know for sure and the simplest explanation possible: we share our planet and the solar system with at least one other civilization. This civilization evolved here and is subject to the same environmental forses and constraints as humans. Witness testimony and the AA give us some idea of the minimum we can expect: a wide variety of humanoid entities who ride around fast vehicles, that come in many shapes and sizes. >Who is the cameraman The cameraman is the person who filmed the Alien Autopsy footage. >and how did you get the drawing The drawings, depicting the craft, from two angles, were published in "Beyond Roswell" by Hesemann & Mantle. Haven't you seen them? I believe they were drawn from photos taken by the cameraman. The detail of terrain and the army trucks is just too accurate to be from memory. >and how is >it you determined that this pile of stuff was or wasn't from the >stars? Did it say made by General Motors? I used my gifts of observation and the, Discussion Of The Debris, by Dennis Murphy. I'm sure it would be quite obvious to you if you'd only take a good look >My point was that there is no need for the small craft to have >come here directly on their own from another solar system since >that job is very likely performed by the big ones.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 30 Sighting Over Dominican Republic From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:40:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:13:08 -0400 Subject: Sighting Over Dominican Republic INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology August 29, 2005 Source: Planeta UFO Date: August 29, 2005 Dominican Republic: UFO Sighting Over Santo Domingo (from a report by Ing. Carlos R. Pe=F1a) "At 12:50 pm today (08.29.05) I was able to witness a completely black UFO at an altitude of between 1000 and 3000 meters. I say this because the object flew between a low cloud (raincloud) and medium altitude cloud (white cloud). We know that rain clouds are usually at an altitude of between 1500 to 2500 meters, with the lowest ones at 1000 meters and the higher ones between 2500- 3000 meters. "The object was traveling from West to East and its shape was hard to describe. I was unable to define its shape, but I believe it was something at appeared to be vertical (sic). Something like the alleged "flying humanoids" seen in Mexico over recent months. I cannot relate it to any other object, such as balloons, birds, airplanes, etc. on account to its very strange shape. "Unfortunately I did not have time to a photograph, as the sighting lasted only some 40 seconds and I did not have a camera at hand. "The object was flying in an even, single-row movement, except for a moment in which it a maneuver resembling a soft curve, which I estimate at some 5-10 degrees. "I hope other people in my country saw the object and may therefore dispel any questions about the event. I will keep you
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 30 Re: Exopolitics Courses For Fall 2005 - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 19:40:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:28:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Exopolitics Courses For Fall 2005 - Maccabee >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:32:09 -1000 >Subject: Exopolitics Courses For Fall 2005 <snip> >For example, I recently posted an update on further >investigations of Charles Hall's testimony where David Coote >found three independent witnesses to corroborate parts of Hall's >story. See: >http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-36.htm >Bruce Maccabee kindly supplied information corroborating >evidence for parts of the interviews pertaining to widespread >fear by guards/weather observers over the high strangeness in >the Indian Springs area at Nellis AFB in the period of Hall's >service: Actually Hawk's testimony concerns events in the 1960's. If I recall correctly, the weather observers reported strangeness in the early 1950's. >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/aug/m10-006.shtml >This is important circumstantial evidence supporting Charles >Hall testimony but it was ignored by others on the list. I think >considering the testimony of Hall and other whistleblowers helps >considerably in understanding the exopolitical situation before >us in terms not only a "cosmic watergate" of secrecy, but also >of secret agreements between government agencies and some >extraterrestrial races. For those who didn't check the following web site, >http://brumac.8k.com/HawkTales I wrote: >If you download the above WORD file and move to pages >37 - 40 and page 43 you will find references go Indian >Springs ( near the National Test Site for atomic weapons >and also Area 51). According to Hawk, who worked out there >as a seismologist in the 60's, the guards were all afraid of >having to be patrolling outside at night in the Indian Springs >area. Hawk's testimony, based on interviews conducted >nearly 20 years ago, is consistent with the claims of weather >observers "A" "B" and "C" as related to the strange "fear" of the >area, said fear being explicitly related to UFOs. Hawk states t>hat he was told by a guard that "people disappear" in areas >such as this. >It seems to me that this opens another area for investigation: >interviews of guards and weather observers and anyone else >who might have spent time outside at night in the Indian >Springs area (also area 51, etc. and the vicinity of Nellis AFB).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 30 Re: Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures - From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:43:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:32:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures - >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:23:21 EDT >Subject: Re: Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures >>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:47:18 -0700 >>Subject: Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures <snip> >>In Vallee's view, the "interaction remembered by the witnesses," >>if it "was a real encounter," should be "treated at the >>symbolic level." It "does not," Vallee felt, "tell us anything >>about the extraterrestrial origin of the beings." The "idea that >>they must perform such experiments to enrich their race," Vallee >>argued, was "merely another contribution to the absurd >>character of the entire phenomenon" - absurd not in the sense of >>being non-existent, in Vallee's view, but in the sense of being >>something other than a series of physical occurrences involving >>technologically advanced extraterrestrial visitors. [Vallee, >>Dimensions, p. 269] ><snip> >The point should be obvious: It is to inflict trauma and >confusion, not to collect "scientific" data. Brad: Barbara: The Story Of A UFO Investigator by Peggy Fielding & Barbara Bartholic http://www.awocbooks.com/Book.cfm?b=19&f=r Barbara Bartholic and Jacque Vallee travelled together around
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 30 Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:30:22 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:33:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Shough >From: Josh Presseisen <josh.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:29:40 -0400 >Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested >On the lense flare side of things - I don't believe that I have >seen a lense flare that had perspective before. Lense flares >usually face the camera, are splayed out in multiples, and are >circular, not elliptical. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong >on that one. >Also, it looks as if the "object" is in the sky has some >atmospheric or fog effects on it. Josh Check Plate 6 in the Condon Report. It apparently shows a lens flare due to a streetlight in the bottom left of the frame. The
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 30 Re: Now You See 'Em Now You Don't - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 05:39:35 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:37:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Now You See 'Em Now You Don't - Sparks >Source: Terry Hansen's MissingTimes.Com >http://www.themissingtimes.com/press.xhtml >The Missing Times >News Media Complicity In The UFO Cover-Up >Now You See 'Em, Now You Don't >How the U.S. government moved UFOs off the front page. >By Terry Hansen <snip> Why is this being posted here now? What does it really add to our knowledge, if not in fact adding misinformation and standard UFO propaganda spin? This is not "The Missing Times" but the Missing Facts. Let me explain some of the facts missing from this poorly researched and biased account. >An early >intelligence estimate concluded UFOs were from outer space, but >this alarming conclusion was quickly squelched by Air Force >Chief of Staff General Hoyt S. Vandenberg who ordered all copies >of the estimate burned. It was _not_ an "intelligence estimate"!!! Do some research on what an intelligence estimate consists of, it's completely different from a military "estimate of the situation" which is a status report on a changing situation. An "estimate of the situation" is _not_ an "intelligence estimate"! This shows the incredible shallowness of what passes for "research" in the UFO field. Vandenberg did _not_ order all copies of the Estimate of the Situation burned! This is sloppy reading of our one and only source claiming anything was "burned," which is Ruppelt. All Ruppelt said was (p. 45 Doubleday ed.): "Some months later it was completely declassified and relegated to the incinerator. A few copies, one of which I saw, were kept as mementos...." Nowhere does Ruppelt say Vandenberg ordered anything at all, nothing about Vandenberg ordering copies "burned," nothing about "all copies" being burned (obviously they weren't since "a few copies" were not destroyed). Even the alleged "burning" (the word Ruppelt actually used was "incinerator") sounds more like a literary fluorish not meant to be taken literally as to the manner of disposal, and that all Ruppelt knew or thought he knew was that there was a standard destruction of extra copies carried out whatever way that was done. They could have been simply pulped and put into a landfill as the many tons of highly classified NSA documents have been disposed of over many decades. There is an entire developmental history behind the Air Materiel Command Intelligence Dept's "Estimate of the Situation" first drafted on Aug. 5, 1948, which is "missing" here. There were multiple drafts and the first rejection was at mid-command level in the Air Staff before it ever even reached Gen. Vandenberg the Chief of Staff. The EOTS paralleled the workup of the similarly TOP SECRET AIR 203 Study of Flying Discs by the Air Staff Directorate of Intelligence at the same time. This requires sophisticated historical analysis which again is entirely "missing" here. >In 1953, a Central Intelligence >Agency (CIA) panel met to discuss what could be done about the >situation. The panel=E2=80=99s chairman was Dr. H.P. Robertson, a top >U.S. scientific-intelligence expert. After a brief discussion of >some of the more heavily publicized cases, the "Robertson >Panel," as it has come to be called, recommended what was >effectively a domestic propaganda campaign of "training and >debunking." The CIA, through its various media assets, intended >to strip UFOs of the prominence they had achieved by casting >doubt on the credibility of witnesses. Huh? Once again we are treated to a monolithic theory that insists on remaining ignorant of the bureaucratic realities. The CIA was, and is, not a monolith but a huge bureaucracy with warring factions and an intense and complex internal politics. The CIA "overt side" sponsored the Robertson Panel. The CIA "covert side," or black ops directorate, managed the media propaganda assets. The Robertson Panel report was not even distributed to the CIA black ops directorate, the Clandestine Service! The "overt" office that sponsored the AF-imposed Robertson Panel, CIA Office of Scientific Intelligence (OSI), was not on good terms with the Clandestine Service because it was intruding on the CS's domain in a number of areas. And the idea of UFO groups being subversive organizations needing to be monitored and/or countered was planted on the CIA by the AF in a briefing in Aug 1952 given by a leading AF psych war expert Dr. Stefan Possony, long before the Robertson Panel was created or dreamed up. Funny business was going on long before the Robertson Panel that had nothing to do with the Panel. Anyone who bothers to study and understand the internal CIA politics would laugh at the notion that the Robertson Panel could order or direct the Clandestine Service to do anything, such as to manipulate the CS's media assets to mount a campaign to discredit the UFO subject. You'll have to do better than that to put together a credible scenario, one that comprehends the actual history and workings of the relevant agencies and key personalities. >Meanwhile, the government took measures to silence airline >pilots. Under a document called JANAP 146, UFO reports were >classified as vital intelligence data which pilots were required >to report to military officials. Once such reports had been >filed, it became illegal for pilots to talk about their UFO >sightings with news reporters. To make certain the pilots kept >quiet, the Air Force pressured airline companies to keep their >employees silent. Hundreds of pilots protested this censorship >but, in the end, decided it was better to keep their lucrative >jobs than their civil liberties. The whole JANAP 146 system of reporting was forced on a very reluctant AF by a retired Navy Cdr. Bernard Baruch Jr. who was well-connected through his internationally renowned diplomat father. Notice the Navy vs. AF opposition. If any of you really want to understand a substantial amount of the subterranean currents and politics of UFO's you'll pay more attention to the Navy vs. AF conflict and Keyhoe's Navy background, which made the paranoids in the AF highly suspicious. Jan Aldrich has done a fine investigation of the Baruch papers and the JANAP-146 CIRVIS history, which has revealed the true background of what was happening behind the scenes, beginning with Baruch's efforts starting in 1946. Baruch was a friendly acquaintance of Keyhoe who liked Keyhoe's UFO work and tried to help out behind the scenes. Baruch would send copies of Keyhoe's books to high officials such as the AF Director of Intelligence and got them to actually read the books. It took Baruch about two years from 1952 to 1954 of constant prodding and meetings with high-level AF and DoD officials to get the AF to agree to finally issue official orders setting up the CIRVIS reporting system under JANAP-146 and at Baruch's specific suggestion to include the airlines. It was Baruch's idea _not_ the AF's!! It was Baruch's idea to include the airlines in the reporting network and to specifically include UFO sighting reports!!! Not the AF's idea!!!! A friend of Keyhoe's (Baruch) is the one who pushed it _on_ the AF to include airline pilots, and to include UFO sightings! Baruch himself never knew why the AF was so reluctant. He was never told that the AF had enacted a sweeping overhaul of AF intelligence methodology to essentially throw out anecdotal sighting reports such as those Baruch now wanted the AF to make even more efforts to collect! Baruch was not cleared for the SECRET compartmented AF policy and was not told that the kind of reports he wanted systematically collected for intelligence analysis were deemed "worthless" by the AF which now wanted instrument measurements and recordings of technical data on foreign aircraft, missiles and UFO's. Baruch never succeeded in connecting the dots or figuring this out on his own, judging from the many years of puzzled correspondence in his papers. Because of Baruch's powerful contacts the AF finally decided it had to humor and placate him and the Navy by setting up the CIRVIS system under the JANAP-146 regs, but not taking it seriously. Baruch kept running into what was to him an inexplicably lackadaisical attitude by the AF to what he mistakenly thought was a "vital" source of intelligence, all those almighty "trained pilots." Every time Baruch thought he had finally closed the deal then something else would come up that seemed to undo it. Baruch kept arguing to the AF that the AF needed immediate reports of possible enemy attacks and that his CIRVIS system would help. But Baruch apparently did not understand that there were already "operational reporting" requirements in place for immediate reporting of signs of attack that long predated him and his CIRVIS system and needed no help from him or his JANAP-146 reg, which was superseded by the op reporting channels and regs. Somewhere along the line some friend or contact of Keyhoe's got their signals confused and thought that the standard classified information disclosure warnings printed in the (unclassified) JANAP-146 regulation, with their threats of punishment by 10 years in prison and $10,000 fines for disclosure, meant that the sighting info was classified (including UFO's) when in fact it only meant that the CIRVIS _report_ of the sighting, not the sighting details, would become classified. It was an admittedly subtle distinction easily misunderstood and one that the AF did try to take advantage of years later in order to shut up a few pilots who getting a lot of publicity but not in 1954 when none of this was even the AF's idea in the first place. (And legally a pilot report cannot be classified by a pilot who has no classification authority to classify it, so how would the report actually get classified? Just stamping "SECRET" on a document does not even make it classified, a classification decision has to be made by someone with the legal authority to do so.) As Baruch repeatedly pointed out to airline officials and the AF the CIRVIS reporting system was purely _voluntary_. But the classified disclosure penalties rattled people and made them think everything was not voluntary but _mandatory_. This was the height of the McCarthy era and everyone was a bit jumpy. They jumped to the conclusion that this was an AF trick designed to "muzzle" airline pilots and "silence" them from publicly revealing or discussing their UFO sightings. Any pilot who was worried about that could simply not report his sighting over CIRVIS and many did just that, refused to report. As I said before it was Keyhoe's Navy friend Baruch who pushed this whole JANAP-146 system on the AF and insisted on including civilian airline pilots and insisted on including UFO's within the reporting parameters. >...a content analysis of New York Times UFO news coverage >shows Times coverage became progressively more slanted against >UFO reality in the years following the Robertson Panel=E2=80=99s >recommendations. As I pointed above the CIA internal politics make this an absurd notion - that a bunch of scientists with no operational field experience in covert warfare would dictate to the experts on psych war across organizational boundary lines within the CIA. No way. >Dr. Robertson could hardly have dreamed it would all work out so >well.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 30 Ex-Special Constable Latest To Report UFO From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:40:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:40:35 -0400 Subject: Ex-Special Constable Latest To Report UFO Source: The Bracknell News - Bracknell, Berkshire, UK http://tinyurl.com/arddr Aug 30 2005 Ex-Special Constable Is Latest To Report UFO Sighting by Vicky Huntley More than a month after the Bracknell News series' first article about a flying saucer hovering above the Coppid Beech Hotel in Binfield, 67-year-old Janet Burrell contacted the hotline to say she had seen a UFO. Mrs Burrell, who lives in Priestwood, said she saw a UFO in the sky above Binfield around 30 years ago. The ex-special constable, who suffers from insomnia, said she saw the object one night when she was having trouble sleeping. She said: "There was a bright, bright light far away and I just looked at it out of the window and was mesmerised watching it. "I stayed there looking at it and looking at it and then it started to come closer and closer. Then it just hovered outside my bedroom window. It was really close; not so close that I could touch it but it was really close. "Then it sort of dropped down and turned away. There wasn't any sound. It was really amazing. I just wish my husband had woken up, then he would have seen it too." She added: "I was so amazed at what I had seen that I told everyone but nobody believed me." Mrs Burrell said that she gave up telling people about her sighting because no one believed her. She said: "When I told people they said that I'd had too much to drink." It was not until she saw other stories in the papers that she began to think about her experience again. She said: "It has brought it all back really, I hadn't thought about it for years.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 30 Now That's What I Call The Silly Season From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:44:05 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:44:05 -0400 Subject: Now That's What I Call The Silly Season Source: The Independent Online - UK http://news.independent.co.uk/media/article309105.ece 30 August 2005 Now That's What I Call The Silly Season It's one of the best-loved traditions of the British summer - the string of bizarre and fanciful stories that emerges to fill the gaps in the news pages each August. Ed Caesar looks back in wonder <snip> RIP UFO Since the Middle Ages, UFO sightings have formed the beating heart of silly season. But, as The Times, Guardian, and, erm, Independent reported, British UFO-sightings are now in troubled waters. The Cumbrian branch of British UFO Hunters is considering shutting down after a dearth of sightings in the North of England. Chris Parr, of BUFOH, said that sightings in Cumbria had diminished from 60 in 2003, to 40 in 2004, to none in 2005. "It means that the number of people keeping their eyes on the skies is greatly diminished... I put it down to the end of The X Files, a lack of military exercises in the area that would produce UFO sightings, and a lack of strange phenomena." But it's not all doom and gloom for UFO-twitchers. The Guardian reported how Russ Kellett, a "UFO researcher" has been excited by the "extraordinary level of UFO activity in Filey, North Yorkshire". Hang on, is that the same Filey, North Yorkshire, where a man spent two days in a gorse bush without knowing how he got there? The same Filey, North Yorkshire, where that man was described as looking "like he had been dropped there by a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 30 Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Shell From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:22:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:46:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Shell >From: Josh Presseisen <josh.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:29:40 -0400 >Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested <snip> >On the lense flare side of things - I don't believe that I have >seen a lense flare that had perspective before. Lense flares >usually face the camera, are splayed out in multiples, and are >circular, not elliptical. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong >on that one. It's lens, damn it! As I have said in my previous posts, it is simple lens flare from a lens suffering from the optical aberration known as coma.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 30 Re: Spanish UFOs 1990? - Olmos From: Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos <ballesterolmos.nul> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:08:00 +0200 (CEST) Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:48:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Spanish UFOs 1990? - Olmos >From: Guy Reynolds <guidos942.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:40:11 +0000 >Subject: Spanish UFOs 1990? >I have an old colleague who had a pretty upsetting UFO >experience in 1990. >Does anyoney have any information about UFO activity between the >island of Mallorca and the Spanish coast, off Alicante, between >February and early May 1990. In response to this query we have retrieved the information from our UFO case catalog database and we have found that the only known UFO sightings recorded in the mentioned area were on February 14 and 15, 1990 in the local Majorca village of Sineu, in the Baleares islands (Spain=B4s province in the Mediterranean sea). Our journal CUADERNOS DE UFOLOG=CDA, double issue 9-10, September-December 1990, printed an article by local researcher Paolo Zerbato about it. I will appreciate receiving (in private, if necessary) any available details of the sighting which originated this query, to add this information to our event register. Thanks and best regards,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 30 IU Scientists Debate Alien Existence From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:12:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:12:04 -0400 Subject: IU Scientists Debate Alien Existence Source: Indiana Daily Student - Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana http://www.idsnews.com/subsite/story.php?id=30631 Tuesday, August 30 IU Scientists Debate Alien Existence By Hannah Schroder Ten years ago, senior Adam Pollard thought he encountered aliens. He was camping, and one night he walked down to a lake. When he looked up in the sky, he saw lights moving from side to side. "It looked like something was floating around in the sky," he said. "I thought they were aliens because I'd formed an opinion of how it would look after I'd seen it on TV and read books about alien encounters." Most likely, Pollard didn't encounter aliens, but the mysterious lights in the sky made him wonder, "Do aliens really exist?" With many eyes turned to the sky recently for the launch of NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter and the landing of Space Shuttle Discovery, others might wonder the same thing. But according to IU researchers, that question can't yet be answered. "We just still don't know what's out there," said Lisa Pratt, an IU geology professor who's studying samples of subsurface Earth to determine what kind of life might exist on Mars. Although life has not been found outside of Earth, the seeds of life as we know it on Earth have been found all over the place. These include liquid water, carbon and energy sources, said Pratt. If life does exist in our own galaxy, it's most likely on Mars or one of the moons orbiting other planets in our solar system, said IU astronomy professor Richard Durisen. Mars' environment is the most similar to Earth's, and increasing evidence shows that large amounts of liquid water may exist on several moons. But when and if life is found outside Earth, it most likely won't resemble the E.T.-like creatures many picture when they think of aliens. "I don't think in terms of aliens being highly-advanced technological creatures," said Pratt. "For me, it's most likely the first aliens we encounter are (going to be) small, microbial organisms." While aliens could be single-cell organisms similar to ones on Earth, they could also be completely different than any life forms on Earth, said Durisen. And any intelligent life that may exist is probably a few galaxies away, he said. "My best guess is we don't live in a 'Star Wars' universe," Durisen said. "There aren't aliens flying around our universe." The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence Institute, a national organization, is looking for radio wave signals that could have been sent to Earth by intelligent creatures from other places in the universe. They haven't found any promising signals yet, but Durisen said it's always possible intelligent life does exist but doesn't want to contact us, or SETI is just missing the signals. Pratt said she sees no reason why intelligent life couldn't develop elsewhere the way it developed on Earth. Durisen said most of his students feel the same way. "That's something most people would like to believe, that we're not alone in this enormous universe." Pollard said he thinks it's highly likely there's other life in the universe, but he doesn't think it resembles humans. "I imagine some form of energy not made up of matter as we know it," he said. "I think it could be something that's unimaginable to us." Despite the questions that remain about what exactly life in the universe looks and acts like, Pratt said she's optimistic aliens will be found within current students' lifetimes. "That would probably be the most important scientific discovery ever," said Durisen. This semester, students taking AST-103: The Search for Habitable Planets taught by Durisen can decide for themselves whether aliens exist as they explore research about the possibility of life in the universe. Whatever the case, students shouldn't worry about alien encounters -- the scary kind they see in movies and read about in books -- said Pratt. "If the intent was malice it would have already occurred," she
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 30 UFO-Related Cartoons? From: Philip Mantle <philip.nul> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 18:44:08 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:20:47 -0400 Subject: UFO-Related Cartoons? Hi List, I just wanted to know if anyone had access to any good, funny UFO/ALIEN/ABDUCTION cartoons of any kind ?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 30 List Off-Line Until Friday P.M. From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:40:21 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:40:21 -0400 Subject: List Off-Line Until Friday P.M. The List will be off-line until Friday evening.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 31 Re: Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures - From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:17:17 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:50:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures - >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 21:43:42 -0400 >Subject: Re: Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:23:21 EDT >>Subject: Re: Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures >>>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul>To: >>>ufoupdates.nul Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 >>>10:47:18 -0700 Subject: Vallee On Abductions & Medical >>>Procedures ><snip> >>>In Vallee's view, the "interaction remembered by the >>>witnesses," if it "was a real encounter," should be >>>"treated at the symbolic level." It "does not," Vallee >>>felt, "tell us anything about the extraterrestrial origin >>>of the beings." The "idea that they must perform such >>>experiments to enrich their race," Vallee argued, was >>>"merely another contribution to the absurd character of >>>the entire phenomenon" - absurd not in the sense of being >>>non-existent, in Vallee's view, but in the sense of being >>>something other than a series of physical occurrences >>>involving technologically advanced extraterrestrial >>>visitors. [Vallee, Dimensions, p. 269] >><snip> >>The point should be obvious: It is to inflict trauma and >>confusion, not to collect "scientific" data. Good point in my estimation. But for what reasons? Maybe it's time to conjecture as to why. And I'm surprised the media or others haven't attempted to exploit Vallee's "absurd" observation as other than what he meant, that absurdity can be a part of the phenomenon, but not the nature of the phenomenon. Examples: Oxford Concise Dictionary- The absurd - that which is absurd, esp.human existence in a purposeless, chaotic universe. Absurdism [n], the belief that human beings exist in a purposeless, chaotic universe. There's an odd explanation of a word. It would appear that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 31 Ex-Special Constable Reports Sighting From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:54:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:54:27 -0400 Subject: Ex-Special Constable Reports Sighting Source: Bracknell News - Berkshire, UK http://tinyurl.com/95soo Aug 30 2005 Ex-Special Constable Is Latest To Report UFO Sighting Vicky Huntley More than a month after the Bracknell News series' first article about a flying saucer hovering above the Coppid Beech Hotel in Binfield, 67-year-old Janet Burrell contacted the hotline to say she had seen a UFO. Mrs Burrell, who lives in Priestwood, said she saw a UFO in the sky above Binfield around 30 years ago. The ex-special constable, who suffers from insomnia, said she saw the object one night when she was having trouble sleeping. She said: "There was a bright, bright light far away and I just looked at it out of the window and was mesmerised watching it. "I stayed there looking at it and looking at it and then it started to come closer and closer. Then it just hovered outside my bedroom window. It was really close; not so close that I could touch it but it was really close. "Then it sort of dropped down and turned away. There wasn't any sound. It was really amazing. I just wish my husband had woken up, then he would have seen it too." She added: "I was so amazed at what I had seen that I told everyone but nobody believed me." Mrs Burrell said that she gave up telling people about her sighting because no one believed her. She said: "When I told people they said that I'd had too much to drink." It was not until she saw other stories in the papers that she began to think about her experience again. She said: "It has brought it all back really, I hadn't thought about it for years. "I can only imagine it must have been some kind of UFO. My mouth
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 31 Re: Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures - From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:39:20 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:58:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures - >From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:47:18 -0700 >Subject: Vallee On Abductions & Medical Procedures >From: T. Peter Park <tpeterpark.nul> >To: forteana.nul >Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:42:58 -0700 >Subject: [forteana] Jacques Vallee on alien abductions > and "medical procedures" >Friends, Forteans, Listmates, <snip> >At the conclusion of Chapter 9, The Case Against >Extraterrestrials, in Dimensions, Vallee wondered about the >"medical procedures" reported by so many alleged alien >abductees. "What kind of doctors," he asked, "are these, who >need to induce such trauma in hundreds of patients to collect a >little blood, a few embryos?" [Jacques Vallee, Dimensions, p. >268] To all, I see at once a major flaw in Vallee's viewpoint. From what we know of abductions, they go far beyond a mere collection of blood and embryos. A most important aspect is, not only the extraction of eggs and sperm, but the implantation of embryos, later extracted again, live. Later, we have the presentation of hybrid babies to the mothers, and the attemps to create a sort of "bonding" between them, for whatever purpose. This is a much more complex procedure! So, the critiques of Vallee seem very narrrow, and they fall short of discarding the abduction phenomenon. >Yes, the cattle mutilations, too! By Vallee's reasoning, if the >"aliens" really need something from cattle, they could easily >get it by one or two night-time raids on slaughterhouses. Or >else, they could perhaps stage just a couple of mutilations or >abductions of cattle, followed by cloning of the bovine cells or >tissues specifically making the particular substances they >needed! Yes, it is interesting, to say the least, that our age >of alien abductions and cattle mutilations seems to have no >reports of mysterious break-ins and thefts from blood banks, >sperm banks, in vitro fertilization clinics, and >slaughterhouses! As both Vallee and I feel, a few raids on blood >and sperm banks, fertility clinics, and slaughterhouses should >be so much easier, safer, more convenient, more economical, and >less risky than hundreds or thousands of human abductions and >animal mutilations, with their ever-present twin dangers of >themselves being caught or at least seen and their would-be prey >escaping! For all such reasons, Vallee felt that "the >extraterrestrial theory is not good enough, because it is not >strange enough to explain the facts." [Vallee, Dimensions, p. >269] This critique of cattle mutilations is even weaker, because it's impossible put in doubt the phenomenon. From what we know, it is again a very complex one. To begin with, it is not obvious that the perpretators want to remain completly hidden . Vallee himself remarked the provocative aspect of cattle mutilations. Now, what is the alternative to alien operations? The idea of a secret military plan is absurd, just because it would so easy for them to buy cattle either alive or dead in slaughter houses. In addition, the phenomenon exists in various areas of he world, notably South America in recent years. On the other hand, it may make sense to suppose that, the same as for abductions, there is a military surveillance of cattle mutilations. And also a policy of cover-up, which may iclude spreading the idea that they are all secret military operations. It is less damaging than letting the truth come out. There is an analogy here with spreading crazy stories in order
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 31 Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Yturria From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:52:22 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:01:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Yturria >From: Bob Shell <bob.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:22:47 -0400 >Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested >>From: Josh Presseisen <josh.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:29:40 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested <snip> >>On the lense flare side of things - I don't believe that I have >>seen a lense flare that had perspective before. Lense flares >>usually face the camera, are splayed out in multiples, and are >>circular, not elliptical. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong >>on that one. >It's lens, damn it! >As I have said in my previous posts, it is simple >lens flare from a lens suffering from the optical >aberration known as coma. >Don't bother with getting the other images unless you >are just some masochist who likes to waste his time.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 31 Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Stevenson From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:11:34 +0100 (BST) Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:03:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested - Stevenson >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:11:22 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Photo Analysis Requested >>From: Josh Presseisen <josh.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 15:20:29 -0400 >>Subject: Photo Analysis Requested >>Here is a link to a photo that a friend sent to me about a year >>ago, taken near the Brooklyn Bridge and shot on a Canon 4 >>mega pixel camera: >http://www.aliensthetruth.com/images/sightings/brooklyn_saucer.jpg >>I'm trying to rule out lense flare - I've seen many in my day, >>whether made in photoshop, or from the actual sun - as any >>comparison to other lense flares doesn't seem to match up. >>There were other photos shot that night, around the same area, >>but none have the same anomaly in them. The atmosphere around >>the object seems to jibe with the image also. Anyone care to >>take a stab at it? >The first thing I noticed was the object doesn't seem to have >picked up the slight jerk of the camera like the other lights >did. Hi Josh, Terry and list had a look and enhanced. http://www.colsweb.com/brooklyn_saucer_lines.jpg it looks as if the saucer and a large square area was pasted into the original image indicated just inside the red square. Failing that there are what looks like very faint lazer lines showed black on my special monitor which shows very faint detail. There is no detail of the top of the UFO leading me to this conclusion. It could also be the Moon showing through a cloud hole. So if it was not pasted on it was produced by interference lazers near where the 2 black lines originate on the ground.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 31 Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood - From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:46:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:06:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood - >From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 06:00:06 -0700 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 00:04:28 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:52:57 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights Documentary In Hollywood <snip> >>>Fox television technicians prove this in the movie >>>when they took Mike's footage and turned up the gain enough to >>>show the faint outline of the mountain crest above the lights >>>that place the lights over the Gila Bend Indian reservation and >>>in front of the Estrella Mtns and not 60 to 80 miles away near >>>Ajo. >>I don't recall ever seeing the mountain crest. If this is >>correct it certainly wold be important. I wonder how they could >>get that anyway, considering that there was no backlighting of >>the mountains. Are you talking about the TV show that responded >>to the Discovery channel documentary analysis of the K video >>using the analysis by cognitech? >Yes, I knew this was done, but had not seen it until the movie. >Cognitech had moved the lights in the video, that is monkeyed >with the K video to prove their case. Krszysten recognized this >when he saw the marker light on the left moved further left. >I had noticed how they left out the lowest lights on the right. This is a "red herring" argument by Mike Krzysten who didn't understand the importance of the parallax effect resulting from the fact that the small tree like bush that appeared to "move" in the Cognitech test video was quite close to the camera as compared to the background. Specifically, the small bush/tree was about 50 ft from the camera as I recall while the hillside that appears in silhouette was several hundred to a thousand feet away and, of course, the lights of Phoenix were miles away and the "Ufo lights" were many miles away. Hence a small motion of just inches left or right by the video camera would create a "parallax shift" that made it look as if the tree was not in the correct location for exact duplication of the Krzysten video by the Cognitech videographer. I estimated that the Cognitech test camera (which may have been K's video camera) was probably within a foot of the location where K's camera had been that fateful night of March 13. Bottom line: Krzysten's argument or "complaint" against the Cognitech comparison video, a complaint that was picked up by the Fox TV commentator ("did someone alter the video?") is not pertinent to the discussion of how far away the "UFO globes" were. That argument relies on aligning the distant Phoenix city lights with the daytime photography of the Estrella range, and the city lights were many miles away (10-15?) so a camera position shift of a foot woudn't make any difference. >>Oddly enough, if it is true that the lights videotaped by >>Krszysten were in front of the Estrella range, then they weren't >>the lights videotaped by Kitei or by Rairdon because the >>sighting lines from Kitei and Rairdon crossed the Estrella range >>far south of where the Krzysten sighting line crossed the >>Estrellas, (As closely as I could determine, the same is true >>for Tom King's video sighting direction .) >Remember, I was there with Tom King with my own video camera and >the first light (the double light on the far left in the K >video) lit up at 9:45 and appeared through binoculars to be on >the side or front of the mountain, but we did not have our >cameras so we ran down to the car to retrieve them. By the time >we set up I found my camera battery had burned out so Tom did >the taping. The double light re-lit in the same spot at about 10 >pm just before the rest of the array appeared. I then looked >through Tom's telescope at the lights and noticed they were >perfectly round without a corona. I scanned for planes and >evidence of flares and there was none in view. We had some >moonlight too. It has been long known (for 5 years or more) that Tom King agrees with me (or I with him) that the lights were beyond the Estrellas and very probably flares burning at high altitude. >I will have to write to Jim to send me the triangulation he did >from the 3 or 4 camera positions as I do not have a copy. I >believe he included the Rairdon sightline, but if differs from >yours. Yes. I recall that during the spring of 2003(?) Jim Dilettoso said he was reviewing the whole case and would provide a definitive analysis the following summer. Haven't heard any results of that analysis. >I do know for sure these lights were not flares and did not >match the characteristics of the flares mentioned in the FOIA >docs I received from the Air National Guard nor did it match the >number of flares they released on that night (which was close to >60 LUU-2 magnesium flares). Of course, most of them could have been (obviously were!) dropped at lower altitudes. My suggestion is that they released flares at high altitude on the way "home" to Davis-Monthan AFB simply to get rid of the last unused flares. (According to press reports, they the Maryland National Guard A-10's were supposed to dump all flares before landing. Each plane carried 8. The "Krzysten Arc" consisted of 8 lights. Could have been a single plane dumping a "complete load." There was also a single light appearing below and to the left of the arc. It could have been a single from another plane. >The Air Guard tried to re-enact >their flare drop in 2000 and the video shows obvious flares, not >even the same color or shape and drifting sideways back and >forth as a flare does when hanging from a chute. The orbs we saw >were rock steady and stayed centered in the scope so I do not >know what downward motion you observed, but we did not observe >any at all. So far as I know, only Tom King has taken video of flares from long distance (25 miles or more) for comparison. He says his video of the flares looks the same as the images in the March 13 videos. Furthermore, he says he drove toward the January 1998 lights and verified what they were by getting close enough to see smoke. The January 1998 images of the "UFO" lights in the Krzysten (K), Kitei (referred to as "L" in the article on my web site), Rairdon and P (name confidential) videos all look like the images in the March 13 videos.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 31 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 35 From: John Hayes <John.nul> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 20:47:28 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:49:52 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 35 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan.nul> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 10, Number 35 August 31, 2005 Edtor: Joseph Trainor E-mail: Masinaigan.nul Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ ORANGE UFOs SIGHTED IN CROWNPOINT, NEW MEXICO "On Wednesday and Thursday nights," August 17 and 18, 2005, "both between 9:25 and 10 p.m., Stephanie Jeff of Crownpoint, N.M. reported seeing bright rotating lights appear suddenly in the sky and vanish just as mysterously." "'It was kind of scary at first,' said Jeff, who has never seen anything like that before. 'They were bright lights, kind of rotating.'" "The reddish-orange lights first appeared from the west on Wednesday, she said. After about a half hour, they vanished." "'I reported it to the Air Force,' Jeff said." "The following night (Thursday, August 18, 2005), she said, there were more planes than usual flying overhead. But about 9:30 p.m., the strange lights again emerged from the western sky. When a plane came too close, Jeff said, the lights went out and never returned." "To make sure she wasn't hallucinating, Jeff said she called her brother, Tony, in Dalton Pass and asked him to look outside." "'He said he saw two lights flying about,' Jeff said. "Crownpoint Police Capt. Steve Nelson said no unidentified objects have been reported to the police. He could not remember ever hearing of a local UFO sighting, Nelson said." "But Jeff knows she saw something." "'It wasn't a star, because it just came right out of the sky. It rotated, and was very bright when it was pointed at us,' Jeff said. 'And we know what an airplane looks like, we know the difference between the lights on a plane.'" "Reportings of unidentified flying objects are not uncommon. Some UFOs have been reported by prominent scholars. In 1949, Dr. Clyde Tombaugh, the discoverer of the planet Pluto, reported seeing a UFO over Las Cruces; four Air Force officers reported an unidentified flying object over Taos in 1952; and several motorists reported seeing a brightly-lit space craft land in a field near Springer, N.M. in 1996." "Reports of UFOs can be traced back thousands of years, even to ancient civilizations like Egypt and Babylon." "Jeff said her husband didn't want her to tell anyone about the unidentified lights. 'I bet a lot of people see things but are afraid to talk about it,' Jeff said, 'It's kind of cool, though. It's exciting. We'll definitely be watching to see if they come back again." Crownpoint (population 2,630) is just west of New Mexico Highway 371, located about 80 miles (128 kilometers) northwest of Albuquerque. (See the Gallup, N.M. Independent for August 20, 2005, "Crownpoint couple spots UFO twice." Many thanks to Steve Wilson Sr. for this newspaper article.) (Editor's Comment: And welcome to Fortean Explosion Week here at UFO Roundup . We've got it all this week. Ice chunks falling from the sky, alligators galore, out- of-place sharks, the Elmendorf Beast and even Jennifer Lopez. Not to mention a few new UFO sightings. At first I couldn't understand why we had an explosion of phenomena at this end of the month when Charles Fort's birthday is August 6. But then I learned that today is the birthday of actor Richard Gere, who starred in the 2002 jinx film The Mothman Prophecies. He turns 56 today. Happy Birthday, Richard...and watch out for falling ice chunks.) SIX ORANGE UFOs SEEN OVER HOBART, TASMANIA On Saturday, August 27, 2005, at 8:45 p.m., Dennis Speed was outdoors at his home in Lenah Valley, a suburb of Hobart, the capital of Australia's southernmost island state of Tasmania, when he saw a strange formation in the night sky. "They approached from the north," Dennis reported, "There were six of them. Six orange lights, the size of bright stars below cloud height in a scattered formation, moving slowly across the sky. There was no noise. Suddenly, they scattered about 500 metres (1,650 feet) apart. A white aura appeared in the sky around them as they moved through the clouds to the south. I estimated that they were at about 5,000 feet (1,500 meters). I observed them for a quarter of an hour (15 minutes), travelling, say, 30 kilometers (18 miles) in that time." Elsewhere in Hobart, up to nine orange UFOs were sighted. Phones were ringing off the hook at Hobart's UFO Investigation Centre. "Spokesman Keith Roberts said he received several calls last night but could not explain the phenomenon, which he did not see." (See the Sunday Tasmanian for August 28, 2005, "Phones ran hot at UFO Centre." Many thanks to Dennis Speed for his eyewitness report and the newspaper item.) TWO UFOs SPOTTED OVER TORONTO On Friday, August 26, 2005, eyewitness K.D. spotted two UFOs flying over downtown Toronto, Canada's largest city. He reported, "I saw two objects, one after the other with coloured lights that beamed illumination every few seconds as though the craft was changing its angle of attack. But they seemed to maintain a continuous height and speed. They were surrounded in a light haze (an aura similar to the one in Tasmania?--J.T.). Their estimated height (altitude) was over 7,000 feet (2,100 meters)." "The entire sighting lasted 2 to 3 minutes till the second craft disappeared from my line of sight flying over my building in the middle of downtown Toronto on Yonge Street. I was on my balcony, which faces south." "I have always been a sceptic of UFO sightings, but I know for sure that what I saw was two unidentified craft." (Email Form Report) WOMAN SEES TWO UFOs OVER DANVILLE, KENTUCKY On Tuesday, August 23, 2005, at 8:45 p.m., Crystal Elam reported, "I had just arrived home" in Danville, Kentucky (population 15,477) "and, being an avid sky watcher, I looked to the west. There were two star-like bright lights, the only ones out since it was still daylight here." "I went into the house for 30 minutes and came out again as it was turning dark. The two objects were still in the same location. I told my husband they looked like cat's eyes, and he agreed." "As I watched, one of the objects turned bright orange while the other stayed very bright white. My son came out, and I pointed it out to him and was looking myself as the orange one faded away and was gone. My first thought was that it went through a cloud cover, but the sky was clear." "A few seconds later, it came back brighter than before and still moving a little to the left, then to the right, and then up. It finally settled behind the same place it had started from. I had the feeling it was searching for something." "As I watched it, it repeated the fading, coming back and movement for one hour. In the pasture area where this was taking place, I could see a light way off in the trees. Around 10:45 p.m., the orange light just disappeared, as did the one on the ground. The white one disappeared at 10:50 p.m., and I saw neither one again, as I waited outside until 11:32 p.m." Danville, Ky. is on Highways 33 and 127, located about 35 miles (58 kilometers) south-southwest of Lexington. (Email Form Report) CROP CIRCLES APPEAR IN CANADA AND SWITZERLAND A crop circle measuring "5.2 metres (17 feet) in diameter" appeared in a soybean field in Dresden, Ontario, Canada (population 2,589). The circle's "plants appeared dead, not flattened or smashed. There was a V-shape inside the circle of unaffected plants. All other plants in the 100-acre field appeared normal. The circle was found by the farmer on Saturday, August 20, 2005." Dresden, Ont. is on Provincial Highway 78, located about 35 miles (58 kilometers) southwest of London, Ont. On Monday, August 15, 2005, "a circle 7.6 to 9 metres (25 to 30 feet) in diameter was found in a field of cattle corn in Lynden, Ontario, Canada," with some unusual features about the nodes. "Some stalks 'sheared off' or snapped at the second node. Some stalks were still standing; others were felled on the ground." The case is being investigated by Canadian cerealogist Joanne Emery. On Sunday, August 14, 2005, "two circles were found in pea fields by a local farmer in Swift Current, Saskatchewan, Canada (population 14,890). The two circles were 12 metres (40 feet) in diameter and were found in two separate pea fields approximately 0.6 kilometers (0.3 miles) apart." "These crop circles are also 29 kilometers (18 miles) from the site of a bull calf mutilation, found by the same farmer during the same time period. The mutilation case is being investigated by researcher Linda Moulton Howe." Swift Current, Sask. is on Provincial Highway 1 approximately 152 miles (254 kilometers) west of Regina. On Friday, August 19, 2005, "an astounding crop circle formation was discovered in front of the entrance building of Mystery Park" in Interlaken, Switzerland, on the shores of Lake Geneva. An exposition on crop circles was planned for the park, but "because of the mysterious appearance of a crop circle overnight, the event was cancelled." (Many thanks to Paul Anderson of Canadian Crop Circle Research Network and French ufologist Robert Fischer for these news stories.) Well, that's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home- -UFO Roundup." See you next time. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2005 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their Web sites and in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com Home to UFO Roundup, Encounters With Aliens On This Day, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert Rosales), Filer's Files, UFO News UK and more... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers. If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received the bulletin in error, please write to:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Aug > Aug 31 Filer's Files #36 2005 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 15:57:10 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:01:30 -0400 Subject: Filer's Files #36 2005 Filer's Files #36 -- 2005 George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International August 31, 2005, Web: www.georgefiler.com Is not an alien force already among us? President Reagan stated: "In our obsession with antagonisms of the moment, we often forget how much unites all the members of humanity. Perhaps we need some outside, universal threat to make us realize this common bond. I occasionally think how quickly our differences would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside this world. And yet, I ask you, IS NOT AN ALIEN FORCE ALREADY AMONG US?" President Ronald Reagan., Remarks made to the 42nd General Assembly of the United Nations., Sept. 21, 1987. The logical question is do Presidents have knowledge of alien life and their capabilities? President's Carter and Reagan claimed they saw UFOs. President Reagan started the anti-missile program called Star Wars asking the Soviet Union to join us in its development. This is the most expensive weapons system in the US arsenal and continues today. There is an old saying if you want to determine what is actually going on, follow the money. Both President's Bush and Clinton continued the Star Wars program now called the National Missile Defense Program. Again in 2005, this is the most expensive weapons program costing over eight and half billion dollars per year. It may be effective at shooting down UFOs... Time Magazine reports; George W. Bush expressed support for the idea of combining lessons in evolution with a discussion of "intelligent design" - the proposition that some aspects of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause or agent, as opposed to natural selection. It is a subtler way of finding God's fingerprints in nature than traditional creationism. "Both sides ought to be properly taught," said the President, who appeared to choose his words with care, "so people can understand what the debate is about... I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought." The President's position seems supremely fair-minded particularly if he has inside classified information on core events. What could possibly be wrong with presenting more than one point of view on a topic that divides so many Americans? But to biologists, it smacks of faith-based science. Interestingly, of all groups of scientists, biologists are the least likely to believe in a supreme being. Essentially the largest group of atheists are biologists and Darwin is the supreme being.. Darwin in his "Origin of Species" published in 1858, his famous theory of evolution, which predicted all living things could be traced through =E2=80=98reductionism' and =E2=80=98synthesism' to a common= ancient universal ancestor. Essentially the argument is did we all evolve from primordial soup or from intelligent design of extraterrestrials or messengers of God? Intelligent Design that essentially claims that life is too complicated to begin and change without an intelligent designer. That life was brought here from space. One mystery that provides evidence of intelligent design are these crop circles near Silbury Hill in England. Thanks to Steve Alexander. On August 7, 1996, NASA announced to the world that evidence of fossil bacteria and organic material had been found in one of the SNC meteorites that were believed to have come from Mars. President Clinton himself announced that this was one of the most important finds in scientific history. NASA's Gil Levin claims that the Viking Lander had found life on Mars based on their experiments in 1976. It is quiet likely that President Bush is also aware of the regular visits to Earth by extraterrestrials. The logical question is why are they here and do we need to stop them? This week's files cover: Intelligent Design, The Arctic ice is melting, and plastic rockets. UFOs were seen over Alaska, Arizona, California, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Ohio, Washington and West Virginia. Many sightings were also reported in Canada, Iraq, South Korea, Tibet, and the United Kingdom. The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world and in space. Many people claim it is impossible for UFOs to visit Earth, I ask you only to keep an open mind and watch the evidence we accumulate each week. I personally chased a UFO over England while in the Air Force and know something strange is in our skies. Plastic Space Ships Most household trash bags are made of a polymer called polyethylene and variants of that molecule are excellent at shielding the most dangerous forms of space radiation. Scientists have long known this but, the trouble has been trying to build a spaceship out of the flimsy stuff. NASA scientists have invented groundbreaking, polyethylene-based material called RXF1 that's even stronger and lighter than aluminum. "This new material is a first in the sense that it combines superior structural properties with superior radiation shielding properties. The safest way to go to Mars may be aboard a plastic spaceship? Protecting astronauts from deep-space radiation is a major unsolved problem because a round-trip could last as long as 30 months and be outside of Earth's the magnetic field. Some scientists believe "Going to Mars now with an aluminum spaceship is undoable," he believes. Plastic is an appealing alternative: Compared to aluminum, polyethylene is 50% better at shielding solar flares and 15% better for cosmic rays. Plastic-like materials produce far less "secondary radiation" than heavier materials like aluminum or lead. Secondary radiation comes from the shielding material itself. When particles of space radiation smash into atoms within the shield, they trigger tiny nuclear reactions. Those reactions produce a shower of nuclear byproducts=E2=80=94neutrons and other particles=E2=80=94that enter the spacecraft. It's a bit like trying to protect yourself from a flying bowling ball by erecting a wall of pins. You avoid the ball but get pelted by pins. "Secondaries" can be worse for astronauts' health than the original space radiation! RXF1 is remarkably strong and light: it has 3 times the tensile strength of aluminum, yet is 2.6 times lighter=E2=80=94impressive even by aerospace standards. "Since it is a ballistic shield, it also deflects micrometeorites." Thanks to NASA. Arctic ice at North Pole is disappearing! The current warming trends in the Arctic may shove the Arctic system into a seasonally ice-free state not seen for thousands of years. The substantial additional melting of Arctic glaciers and ice sheets would raise sea level worldwide, flooding the coastal areas where many of the world's people live. Melting sea ice has already resulted in dramatic impacts for the indigenous people and animals in the Arctic, which includes parts of Alaska, Canada, Russia, Siberia, Scandinavia and Greenland. The permanent ice in the ground could melt more dramatically in the future particularly if the sun continues to warm. During glacial periods, ice sheets extended into North America and Europe. During warmer periods the ice retreated in a self- feeding mechanisms as the white surface of sea ice reflected radiation from the sun. However, as sea ice melts, more solar radiation is absorbed by the dark ocean, which heats up and results in even more sea ice melting. This warming trend can result in exceptionally large Superstorm-like weather. This warming spike caused by a massive increase in methane in the atmosphere resulted in summer temperatures in the eighties at the North Pole. Later there was a sudden, dramatic change back to much colder weather. At this time, gigantic amounts of methane are out gassing from melting Siberian permafrost, and the polar melt is duplicating earlier conditions that led to sudden climate change. Expect more super storms like Hurricane Katrina. Our prayers go out to those caught in the storm. Arizona Several Objects Flashing PHOENIX -- The witness writes, "We are still steaming in the 112 degree temperatures today so I decided to work indoors on analyzing some of my recent videos and noticed that on August 20, 2005, at 3:31 PM, I captured my first day object of the year, but was surprised to see what else appeared in this video clip. I noticed that several objects were flashing so I slowed the video to 1/3 speed to see their movements and was caught by surprise. You can see that another object appears at the right of the screen heading towards the main object I was taping. The object on the right stops and waits for another object to pass in front of it moving extremely fast. There was very little wind and the altitude of these objects was over 5000 feet. I am confident that these objects are not balloons for the obvious reasons. Like the movement and the different directions these 3 objects are going. I also can't see this as pieces of paper being blown around in the wind since it wasn't windy that day. Birds and planes are also thrown out. What do you think? All footage and photos are =C2=A9 2005 RichG. You can view Richard's web site at: http://www.cnufos.com/ and video. Thanks to Brian Vike. To view footage: http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D30 68 California bright object in the daytime sky ESCONDIDO -- On August 22, 2005, I walked over to my garden and noticed an object that was lower and brighter than most that I've seen. I watched it for about 6 or 7 minutes and took about a dozen photos at 4:30 PM. At first I thought it was a plane, but it didn't move like one. It was traveling very slowly south- to-north, although the breeze at ground level was west-to-east. Here is the best of the photos along with a blowup to see what you think. In the blowup, you'll see some dark objects -- these are birds. Thanks to Brian Vike To view photos: http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D30 73 Illinois UFOs at Chicago Air Show While on the water in a friends boat on August 21, 2005, during the early portion of the Air and Water show in Chicago/MIG performance as the MIG banked in the air we looked up to see what at first looked like a silver orb hanging near the smoke trail from the MIG. The object hung there and while the five of us all watched, 1:30 to 3:30 we noticed it spinning and looking like it was morphing from a round object into two objects but still remaining attached and rotating end over end. As it rotated we could see the sun shine off the object at first as an orb shape, then as it seemed to show the texture of two orbs stuck together. It hung, although there was some wind and was definitely not a balloon, plane or bird. The sky was nearly completely clear. You couldn't miss the silver dot in the sky. Eventually it disappeared in front of our eyes after about 7 minutes. Later during a separate jet performance, I looked up in a different part of the completely empty blue sky to see a glowing silver orb which seemed to hang for a little longer eventually slowly getting smaller as we assumed it was gaining altitude slowly. There was a Chicago police boat right next to us and we pointed and showed them the location. They both (a male and female occupant saw the object and watched with us). We told them of the previous experience and they seemed to have no explanation of what we were looking at. I am more than sure some of the over 1 million people got video of this event. It was pretty amazing. Editor's Note - More than 2 million people attended the Show and spectators also claim they saw a UFO just prior to the Air Force Thunderbirds precision flying team F-16 fighter jets touched during their flight on Saturday, August 20, 2005. The mishap sent a missile rail from one of the aircraft plunging into Lake Michigan about 2,500 feet from spectators on the North Avenue Beach. The shaken Thunderbirds canceled their aerial performance only fifteen minutes into their 45 minute routine. Nobody was hurt, and the six Thunderbird aircraft safely returned to the Gary Jet Center. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO RESEARCH http://www.hbccufo.org Indiana Object Appearing As A Triangle PERU -- On my way home from work on August 19, 2005 the time was between 11:15 - 11:30 PM I noticed and an object and pulled over to start filming. I normally have a DV camera with me pretty much all the time since I have seen this object before but never could prove it. The craft was well below the cloud lining and moving north, then it changed direction to south. There was another approaching aircraft which was an airplane that was coming from the west. The craft appeared to be a triangle because of three dimly lit lights it had on all the time, two above and one on the bottom. When I viewed the film by frame its lights would be changing color. Then out of nowhere a reddish, pinkish light lit up to the left then that changed color to green. The top left light and bottom light at the same time flashed white then the top left would flash yellow or a blue. It just changed color when ever. But when you see the clip pay close attention to this its quick but its there! http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D30 38 Iowa Cigar a shinny metal tube ROCKWELL CITY -- I went out into my back yard to feed a few stray cats that have been hanging around, when I heard a jet plane flying overhead on August 7, 2005, at 8:30 AM. The sky was clear and bright so I could see the plane real good. It could of been a jet, because all my attention was on the other unknown object that the sun light was reflecting off so brightly. The plane looked mid sized, maybe a 12 seater and the UFO was just a little larger. At first I thought they were going to crash into each other. But the UFO was maybe about a few 100 ft below the plane. The plane was traveling normal speed, but the UFO was moving real slow. It looked like it was just floating, the only sound I remember hearing was from the plane. Whoever was in the plane should have seen it or else they were blind. The UFO was moving East and the plane was moving North. As the plane continued on the UFO just seemed to stop almost directly above me. So I rushed inside to grab my binoculars. It only took me less then 25 seconds. But when I rushed out and looked up, it was gone. I stayed outside and looked for it for about 30 minutes. But I never saw it again. But like I said, whoever was in that plane should have seen it. This happened over 2 weeks ago, so I may be off a little on the exact date, give or take a day or two. Also, I found a picture that someone else had taken that looked just like the one I saw except it was about 20% smaller as to how far away it was. Ohio video investigation FOSTORIA -- John E. Combest writes, "Based upon my current understanding of George Ritter's VHS video camera's capabilities, and the nature of the objects being photographed, I don't think any "better" camera would be of any greater use in obtaining stop-action of the objects. One of your photos of the crop duster seems to have obtained complete stop-action of the plane's propeller, and that shows me that your camera is suited to the purpose for which it is being used. It may be that Peter doesn't understand that what we are dealing with is NOT an image which has been blurred due to high speed, but is more likely blurred because the light from the objects is being greatly diffused by the powerful magnetic fields around the objects. If that is the case, then a 10,000 fps camera could not produce any better photo. I think there is not much way to improve on the camera and procedures you are using. I think the edge enhancement work by Peter may prove my point. More, later .Thanks to John E. Combest, Inspection Engineer Editor's Note: Notice possible UFO behind the aircraft. Nevada UFOs caught on film LAS VEGAS -- Around 2:00 PM,on Saturday, August 20, 2005, the witness began filming an oblong distortion/object. When the probe came into the frame an object does a half circle around the main UFO, moving slowly to the right, and hovers above a power line for 15 minutes. It then moves away slowly to the right until out of view. Through binoculars it looked like a golden piece of pop-corn, with blue coming off of one side. The camcorder picks up the distortion field, not what is seen with the eye or binoculars. I have seen many things this year. Visual effects, or tricks, are almost always played. I believe this is due to frequency or field generation. The video can be seen at www.lasvegasufo.com and are copywrited =C2=A9 2005. Thanks to Bryan Margetts and more on his video footage and Brian Vike.: http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D30 80 Oregon star-like diamond shape light CORVALLIS -- On August 5, 2005, the witness was facing east and noticed a very, very bright star-like light in the sky, diamond shaped, but obviously that's because of optics at 3:45 a.m. The star/planet was reddish and about a third of the way north of the horizon to the center of the sky, facing east/southeast. Anyway, this object was no doubt the brightest object in the sky, and soon began to startle me, and then I noticed it was moving northeast, but did not have blinking lights like that of a commercial aircraft. Soon the light began to decay but as it decayed the object seemed only to move faster and farther north into the night sky, tracing a quarter of the circumference of a circle. It wasn't a direct 90 or 45 degree angle turn. It was soft, but very fast. There was no noise to be heard in the silent hours of the night where I was, and it seemed to bright and too far away in the sky to be the average military jet. I'm not sure what it was, but nearly four hours into my 23rd Birthday, it was the highlight of that day. Washington UFO expressway SKAGIT COUNTY - KOMO-TV's Corwin Haeck writes, "We are not alone." UFO buffs have been saying so for decades. But now a Mount Vernon man says you don't have to believe in aliens. You can see their ships any night of the week with your own eyes. Ted Anderson says 50 miles above the earth, there's a veritable UFO expressway he calls the UFO Freeway Portal Location. "Myself and thousands of friends have been watching it since 1968," says Anderson. "Mothership's come from other worlds to drop off their planetary ships to come to Earth." Where are they from? What's their purpose? Anderson can only speculate. "This is a security force created by some super being organization or civilization." He believes these ships are standing guard, literally protecting us from hostile aliens. And he says if you get out of the city and gaze up south of the Big Dipper, you can see the ships for yourself with the naked eye. "These red ships, they're there constantly." http://www.komotv.com/stories/38802.htm Source: KOMO-TV - Seattle, Washington Thanks to Kim Shaffer UFO Casebook http://www.ufocasebook.com/ West Virginia Investigation CHARLESTON -- MUFON's K. David McCormick has investigated a sighting over the capital buildings on September 20, 2004, at 7:30 PM. The witness who is the shift supervisor the Capital Police left building #6 and was heading towards the capitol building proper to check the facility was locked down. Accompanied by a fellow officer, a flare was spotted in the sky, so he ran back to building #6 to get his binocular/camera. He could see a star-like object similar to Venus. This would have ended the sighting but multiple white objects were now moving towards them and picking up the orange colors of the setting sun. The objects varied slightly as they conducted maneuvers, hovering, circling each other, chasing aircraft and flying in a playful manner. They followed a east to west direction at high altitude. Some objects disappeared over building #1 as new objects arrived over building #6. The shift supervisor called two other policeman to come out to watch the UFOs, as other capital workers and a total of eight witnesses watched for at least ten minutes. The chief witness has a masters degree in Police Science and has worked in law enforcement for thirty years. He phoned Yeager Airport and the FAA for information on the objects but these were unproductive. Photographic evidence was taken at the time and this appears to be a valid sighting. Thanks to field Investigator K. David McCormick for and excellent report. Canadian sightings high Toronto, Ontario-- On August 19, 2005 at approximately 1:10 p.m. a large black kite shaped two dimensional object was seen above Bloor Street at St. George. I looked out the window and saw this massive thing. From about 2-3 km's away, it was above the office towers in downtown Toronto and was so big,I just suddenly noticed it. It would be a very large object, as a plane looks rather small in the air from a distance. I watched it float with the flat surface facing me. It slowly floated upwards and then turned on it's side - which is what shocked me. The object was two dimensional and hair-line flat. When it went sideways the thin black line glinted somewhat in the sun. The object then went higher and I lost sight of it as it went to the top of the window and out of view. I was at a conference literally being introduced to speak, so I could not go outside and confirm my sighting. I'm a lawyer and very logical person, but there was nothing on the news, in the papers, or on the net. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO RESEARCH http://www.hbccufo.org SCARBOROUGH, ONTARIO -- Paul Shishis writes, "I would like to report a strange sighting on Friday, August 26, 2005, at 2:15 PM. I was cutting the grass at my parent's home and looked up at the clear blue sky, using the neighbor's chimney to block out the direct sun rays. In observation, I could see the fluffy white seeds moving east to west. After about a minute, I noticed a long white object, that appeared "hooked shaped". This object appeared to be moving slowly towards the west. After about 10 seconds in view, the object stopped near the position of the sun, and was stationary for about 30 seconds. The shocking part of all this, was the object suddenly straightened out horizontally. Then in a blink of the eye, shot off in a westerly direction, in a incredible speed towards Toronto. I have never seen anything like this one before, as it defies logic, in shape and speed. As I sat for another 5 minutes. watching the sky, only the white seeds could be seen against the rich blue sky. I then later grabbed my camera hoping that it would return. I did notice single, high flying white objects, which could be seeds. I snapped a couple of pictures to illustrate, how I manage to capture with the naked eye, this hooked, white shaped object, by blocking the intensity of the sun. As for these round white high flying seeds, there may be objects that blend in for one's assumption. Eyes will continue to watch the skies, as it appears, in "fact", that intelligent objects above, are watching us. Thanks to Paul Shishis PORT AU PORT PENINSULA, NEWFOUNDLAND -- Two witnesses made their first sighting during a campfire at Piccadilly Park on the west coast of Newfoundland, where a couple and his wife's sister were camping. The witness states, "Looking up, I thought I saw a regular satellite, streaming southwest and became alarmed when I saw the shape of the =E2=80=98satellite' with my naked eye." The white "ball" had a blue-ish radiant aura surrounding it. I quickly pointed it out to the women watching and we observed it cross overhead, appearing to gain in size by about 50% until stopping completely among the constellations directly overhead. It was a large white ball, three times the size of Venus, but began to get smaller while moving to the right. It appeared to be getting further away. The women watching this and I then had a contest to see who could see it the longest, until just as small as the most perceptible star it was gone. Thanks to Brian Vike Port Alberni, B. C. -- I found out about the UFO sighting through a friend who works at one of our local stores here in town. They told me that an entire family watched, and video taped a strange object at 7:30 p.m. on August 15, 2005, and that Global TV had an interview with the family and ran the footage. So to start with, I thought I would place a short audio clip to the site of the young girl telling in her words what she witnessed. She was such a delightful child to speak with, I also spoke with the Mother and Father who explained the events also. Short audio clips can be found at: http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D3 031 PITT MEADOWS, B.C. -- The family was returning home from a party this past Sunday, August 21, 2005, and as we crossed over the Pitt River Bridge, a small silvery reflective...globe there was when I saw to the North, right beside the mountains? round object? It was pretty far away. I kept my eye on it as we took the back roads home; I was able to see it for at least five minutes. It hovered, never moving; it certainly wasn't a plane heading for us as we changed direction and would have seen it. It just hovered there as I watched it. Right before the tall trees came up to block my vision, it was almost as though the object was turning and showing its red side. I couldn't make it out clearer as the trees blocked my vision and when I could see past the trees again, it was gone. NORTH SURREY, B.C. --On August 22, 2005, the witness was watching a small plane flying east just below the clouds at noon, when he spotted a small shiny round object also flying east high above the clouds.The object looked just like a pearl, very shiny and beautiful. It was 1/4 inch in diameter if held at arm's length. Speed looked comparable to the plane, but with the difference in altitude it must have been many times faster. It was in sight for only a second or two before flying behind the clouds. I told my wife and pointed out where I last saw it and we waited to see if it crossed the next clear spot but it never reappeared. KEEFER LAKE, B. C. - CHBC Television Filmed an object on August 25, 2005, between 11:40 and 12:40 p.m. This is the second sighting at Keefer Lake and both times footage has been taken, one by the eyewitness and this time by CHBC television as they were doing an interview with the eyewitness who shot the footage on July 20, 2005 at noon. Bob from Keefer Lake reports "We have recorded another sighting less than an hour ago with four witnesses, while being interviewed by CHBC television at the time. Their camera was also able to record footage of the object of a UFO. They are taking the footages to the Kelowna office of NavCan for analysis. They tell me that it will be picked up by Global News tonight or tomorrow. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO RESEARCH http://www.hbccufo.org South Korea -- Several UFOs SEOUL -- Hee Joo Kim writes, "I watched three types of UFOs on August 20, 2005, in a clear sky with some clouds from 4 to 5:30 PM. My camera is Sony DSC-F707 attached with skylight filter. I went out to take a picture about 4 PM, near my house when I saw a very bright white and circular object move towards the west. It was not moving too fast, so I watched until it disappeared behind a cloud. I think that was about a few minutes. I took some pictures of that, but my camera was in Shutter Time priority mode. The shutter speed was 1/20th, so the image was too bright to analyze. The second sighting was a black disk type object that was very fast and too far away to take a picture. After downloading my camera I found only a black small point. The third time I took these photos of the UFO, hovering around my area. One UFO was right over on my place and very close. The UFO was on top of the ten meter wide road. So I took about 10 pictures. Fortunately, I succeeded to take four pictures. When I first watched the UFO, it was black and emulated a bright light intermittently and rotated left to right. After downloading the image files and opening them, the image of the UFO was close to a blue color. I watched the object for about 3 minutes. The UFO disappeared from my sight to the South." Thanks to HeeJoo Iraq photo of UFO? FOB DANGER --Charles E. Ratliff, 1SG writes, "I took this photo this AM because the parking lot was virtually empty, which is not that odd. As I looked at the photo on my computer, I noticed the object, which is possibly a bird, but as you enlarge the photo it does not look like a bird, but it is difficult to determine what it might be." The FOB Danger camera is the same digital Nikon CoolPix 5200 (5.1 megapixel) I used for an earlier submission. Thanks to Charles E. Ratliff, 1SG HHC, 250th Signal Battalion OIF III, FOB Danger Tibet Dragons fly again above Himalayas? Above the Himalayas. (www.dajiyuan.com) A photo of two peculiar dragon-shaped objects was taken from a plane flying over Tibet's Himalayas piqued many users' interest when displayed on a Chinese web site. The photographer is an amateur. On June 22, 2004, the photographer took a plane from Lhasa to fly back inland. When flying over the Himalayas, he accidentally caught these two "dragons" in a picture that he took. He called these two objects "the Tibet dragons." Looking at the photo, these two objects appear to have the characteristics of crawling creatures: The bodies seem to be covered by scales, the backs have spine-like protuberances, and also they have gradually thinning rear ends. Although the photo caught only a portion of the entire scene, it was sufficient to create the appearance of two gigantic dragons flying in the clouds. This photo, shown on some web sites such as post.baidu.com and other forums, aroused the web site visitors' curiosity. One person commented, "No wonder that China is the homeland of the dragon! Nature is truly mysterious and powerful,it can always produce spectacular sights beyond people's expectations." Is it possible there is an ancient civilization that we don't know about preserved in places that are sparsely populated?" "It really looks like the dragons in fables, and I really hope it is." In Chinese fairy tales, the dragon is a heavenly creature that can conceal or reveal itself. It ascends to heaven in the spring breeze and dives and hides in deep water in the autumn wind. It can promote clouds and bring about rain. It also became the symbol of imperial authority of emperors. Nearly all Chinese had fables and stories with dragons as the main subject, including sacrificial offerings to the dragons to implore timely wind and rain for good crops. Editor' Note: These type of clouds apparently develop into a shape like a dragon or do they exist?. England two UFO sightings NELSON / KOLBROOK (LANCASHIRE) Two sightings are reported by a 47 year old witness on August 18 and 22, 2005, at 4:50 PM and 10:34 AM, for two and four minutes. On Friday the object was very small in the shape of a circle or white cigar that sped off in a westerly direction at very high speed, gone in 15 seconds. On Sunday, the witness was waiting for a bus at Kelbrook Lancs, when he observed a white seagull or a glider going round in a very tight circle. It then stopped still for about twenty seconds and then sped off in a north westerly direction very, very fast. No seagull or glider would be capable of such a speed. The speed was similar to the craft he observed on Friday. He discussed the sighting with a fellow passenger who thought the object was probably a drone taking photographs. 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