UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Re: Breakthroughs In Genetics Leads To Secret Of From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:29:55 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:53:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Breakthroughs In Genetics Leads To Secret Of >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 12:22:35 EST >Subject: Breakthroughs In Genetics Leads To Secret Of Aging >http://pub.ucsf.edu/magazine/200305/kenyon.html >http://elixirpharm.com/index.html >I'm in admiration of Dr. Cynthia Kenyon of UCSF. >She's got more kudos than Luke Skywalker. >Any of you following the advances in genetics and biochemistry >should know of her groundbreaking work in uncovering the genetic >mysteries of aging. She has literally broken the code and proved >by adjusting two genes DAF-2 and DAF-16 that she's been able to >increase health and life span by 6X in worms and further >experimentation extended health and life in mice and other >creatures. >You can read all about it at the URLs above. <snip> >The reason I bring this up in relation to Ufology is in relation >to the ETH and or past super civilization theory. >My point being that the first thing an advanced civilization is >going to do with their technologies is what life is always >trying to do: Stay alive as long as it can. This is referred to, in my Abduction book, as "incremental immortality". With modern medicine and organ replacement technology, the first person to live more than 200 years could be alive now. But, what does he/she have to look forward to? A life of joy or misery? If no one dies is no one born, or does the human race expand to fill the universe (are there no limits)? Or do we run into some race that has "been there and done that" and they whip us back into the stone age? Even if extended life is achieved without too much radical change in the human body, can the human brain cope with 200 or more years of experiences? (I'm far less than 200 years old, yet my brain is already "dumping" information.) Ultimately the body is replaced by machinery/computers that support the brain as the only evidence of a "person".... and there are those who think that the brain will be replaced by a computer as well (upload the meat computer to a silicon computer). Matrix, art thou far behind? <snip> >Suppose a civilization did or does achieve this and beings live >to incredible ages and health, that changes the focus of what to >do with all that time on one's hands. We may, may be dealing >with beings who don't think in such miniscule spans of time like >decades as we do but in terms of millenia or longer to achieve >goals. The mind boggles to imagine perhaps mindsets that think >in eons. >If you've got forever to get around to something you have the >luxury of taking your time to make sure things are done right. >We think of terraforming planets but that doesn't happen >overnight. Could take an eon or less or more. We think of star >travel and if you've got forever to get where you want to go 10, >20, 50 years may be to an immortal being likened to our waiting >for the dryer to finish it's cycle. Hmmmm... live forevever... learn everything... do everything (in virtual space if not in real space)... and then what?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Re: The Term Mothership - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:53:12 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:56:40 -0500 Subject: Re: The Term Mothership - Lehmberg >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 17:52:53 +0000 >Subject: Re: The Term Mothership >The use of the term mothership has to be looked at in context, >and here it is used to describe a large object with satellite >objects, as used in popular UFO literature. Why go to all these >convoluted lengths to try to find other origins. >I think the extent to which ufology had permeated popular >culture, as far back as the mid 1950s, is underestimated. My >first encounter with the term was as a tiny child when there >were flying saucer kiddy rides in the Lewis's department store >in Manchester (c late 1953 to early 1955) >Americans may not realise that, unlike in the States, George >Adamski's first book was a runaway best seller in the UK, and >was serialised and featured across the press. Donald Keyhoe's >second book was another big seller, especially in the mass >market Arrow edition. >If these cases are so weak as Don suggests, why is so much time >being spent arguing about them, or about the state of the >eyesight of witnesses from cases 40 or more years ago. Is this >because there are no good modern cases? See? This is exactly what I'm talking about. If these old cases can still be 'debated', the klasskutxian bemoans, then how
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Re: New FUFOR Monograph On Ramey - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:53:08 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 10:58:35 -0500 Subject: Re: New FUFOR Monograph On Ramey - Kaeser >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:21:07 EST >Subject: Re: New FUFOR Monograph On Ramey <snip> >Doc, I'm pleased to announce I can't find the link to the >report mentioned. Mayhaps I've overlooked something on the site >but could you post a direct link to where this new report is >located on your site? Hi Greg, The Fund's site is not being updated very promptly, as others have pointed out, and this report was just published in the past month or so. That report, and Richard Hall's update to UFO Evidence, are two new reports not mentioned on the web site yet.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Re: The Term Mothership - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:56:10 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 15:45:27 -0500 Subject: Re: The Term Mothership - Clark >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 17:39:48 +0000 >Subject: Re: The Term Mothership >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:47:23 -0600 >>Subject: Re: The Term Mothership - Clark >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 20:56:34 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: The Term Mothership Patient and gentle Listfolk: >>>It is in the interest of people who wish for UFOs to remain a >>>mystery to attempt to downplay the degree to which UFO imagery >>>and language has entered the popular domain - although I agree >>>that it might be that sometimes psycho-social ufologists may >>>overplay the argument. As Sigmund Freud didn't say: sometime a >>>phallic symbol is just a cloud-cigar. It is in the interest of people who wish for UFOs to be easily explainable to attempt to exaggerate the degree to which UFO imagery and language have entered the popular domain. When they can't document that huge role in mass consciousness, they just start making up stuff. Thus, psychic - otherwise known as psychosocial - ufology. John made a number of claims which he cannot back up. I and others brought forth empirical evidence why his speculations are unlikely to be true, in response to which he offers - here's a shock - further speculations. If psychosocial ufology hangs on so thin a thread that it becomes vital to prove that Gill got "mothership" from UFO jargon, then maybe it's time to hang up psychosocial ufology. >>>I'm greatly impressed by the on-line indexing tools which allow >>>you and others to do word searches amongst numerous obscure >>>newspaper articles. However, I suspect (and please show me, if >>>I'm wrong) that the newspapers indexed here are probably not the >>>ones which would have most of the speculative articles about >>>flying saucers in them. And how would you know? Coverage of UFO matters in these publications, as a search will document, is considerable, even massive. The newspapers range from elite media such as the London Times and New York Times to small-town weeklies. We also find that the one arguably (or dubiously) UFO-related word Father Gill used to describe his sighting is virtually nonexistent as a ufological phrase; it has other meanings in mainstream discourse. There is no reason to believe, beyond ex cathedra pronouncements from pelicanists, that Gill ever had anything but the slightest knowledge of popular UFO lore. >>If you're interested in what else John Rimmer has to say, go >>back to his original post. (I've clipped the rest to save space >>and patience.) You will see that in response to clear and >>specific evidence about the rare use of "mothership" in >>mainstream discourse, he offers up yet more unverifiable >>speculation and engages in continued shameless guesswork and >>arm-waving mind-reading. >>If you want to know why I am not a pelicanist, read my posts >>(and Chris Aubeck's, David Rudiak's, and Greg Sandow's) in this >>and the Gill Sighting thread. Then read John's words, and then >>know why the rest of us have rejected psychic ufology as a >>useful research tool. >If people can be bothered to go back over this increasingly >life-sapping thread to see what my previous post said, they will >note another superb example of "Clarkian Snippery", in which, >when replying to a post, the serious question, which most >deserves an answer, is neatly excised in Clark's reply. You may >think this is because he does not have an adequate reply. I >could not possibly comment. There is no such question, serious or otherwise. Rimmer raises a false issue - not, sadly, for the first or even hundredth time; in this instance I am accused, hilariously, of "wish[ing] to portray UFO witnesses as 'saucer virgins.'" As anybody with any brains understands, I was addressing the Gill case specifically, where I (along with others) demonstrated with empirical evidence and his own testimony that Gill was indeed ufologically naive. As for witnesses generally - not the subject of discussion till John fished this red herring out of the rhetorical stream - it is obvious that some witnesses are not naive, while most probably are in varying degrees. (I recently spoke with two local people who recounted a close encounter with fairly staggering implications, of which they were entirely - and I mean entirely - oblivious.) It does seem apparent, though, that pelicanists exaggerate the degree to which UFO consciousness exists and manifests in broader, mainstream society, to which UFOs are, for all but a tiny handful of us, a matter of, at best, modest concern or thought. In Gill's case, Rimmer gets all huffy about my alleged indifference to psychosocial or cultural influences, oblivious to the implicit reality that Gill was indeed affected by them; they just didn't happen to be ufological ones, but mainstream cultural references (here nautical jargon). As Greg Sandow has remarked (and as John has remained tactfully silent in response to), empirical demonstration of psychosocial speculations is virtually never a part of the pelicanist argument. As I have had occasion to remark on a few occasions in the past, this is literary criticism, not science. No wonder the wheels of psychosocial ufology continue to spin year after
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Re: The Term Mothership - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:23:50 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 15:47:28 -0500 Subject: Re: The Term Mothership - Clark >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 17:52:53 +0000 >Subject: Re: The Term Mothership >The use of the term mothership has to be looked at in context, >and here it is used to describe a large object with satellite >objects, as used in popular UFO literature. Why go to all these >convoluted lengths to try to find other origins. Well, Peter, how about this one?: No empirical evidence so far demonstrated, not to mention Gill's own testimony, supports the notion that "mothership" is anchored in "popular UFO literature." Why is it that the securing of empirical evidence bearing on a question is "convoluted lengths"? Is it because the pelicanist prefers the far easier method - just making stuff up that sounds good? >I think the extent to which ufology had permeated popular >culture, as far back as the mid 1950s, is underestimated. My >first encounter with the term was as a tiny child when there >were flying saucer kiddy rides in the Lewis's department store >in Manchester (c late 1953 to early 1955) Born one year before Arnold's sighting of nine magical pelicans, I had only the vaguest awareness of UFOs until 1957, when I causally purchased Ruppelt's book (through a multi-book introductory offer from the Science Fiction Book Club). To the end of her days, my aunt thought I was interested in something called "NFOs"; she was never able to grasp the concept of UFOs. So what? These anecdotes have nothing to do with anything. We're addressing the case of Father Gill, and that has nothing to do with you, me, or my aunt. And why, incidentally, is it that pelicanists reject all anecdotal testimony - except, of course, when it's their own anecdotal testimony, as above?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 UFO Formation Over San Jose Costa Rica From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 12:25:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 15:49:06 -0500 Subject: UFO Formation Over San Jose Costa Rica INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology October 31, 2005 ================================================================ SOURCE: Planeta UFO DATE: October 31, 2005 On October 29, 2005, six people who were sunbathing around a pool in a private club in San Jose, the capital of Costa Rica, witnessed the transit of a number of luminous objects (between 10 and 12, according to witnesses) in a north to south formation and heading east-west. These objects would stop, start, break formation and resume the aforementioned formation yet again, following their trajectory. The weather in Costa Rica has been cloudy and it was precisely at noon on Friday that the skies cleared up. The sighting had a duration of 10 minutes and the airport's radar had no contact whatsoever. There have been no other witnesses to the event outside the club.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Re: Breakthroughs In Genetics Leads To Secret Of From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:32:14 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 15:50:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Breakthroughs In Genetics Leads To Secret Of >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 12:22:35 EST >Subject: Breakthroughs In Genetics Leads To Secret Of Aging >I'm in admiration of Dr. Cynthia Kenyon of UCSF. >Her research is rapidly changing our future as a species and >perhaps in years to come her discoveries will actually increase >our health and life spans to remarkable ranges. This isn't dream >technology, she's been able to prove it time and again and the >foundations of these new technologies are here now. >The reason I bring this up in relation to Ufology is in relation >to the ETH and or past super civilization theory. >Suppose a civilization did or does achieve this and beings live >to incredible ages and health, that changes the focus of what to >do with all that time on one's hands. We may, may be dealing >with beings who don't think in such miniscule spans of time like >decades as we do but in terms of millenia or longer to achieve >goals. >We think of star >travel and if you've got forever to get where you want to go 10, >20, 50 years may be to an immortal being likened to our waiting >for the dryer to finish it's cycle. For some peculiar reason, extended life spans never seems to factor into thinking of ETH skeptics or SETIist when it comes to the possibility of interstellar travel by aliens. This is what I call "The aliens are always dumber than the humans" syndrome. Humans might do it (or do it already), but never the aliens. Thus humans might achieve interstellar travel but not the aliens (Carl Sagan actually used this argument). Humans might find other forms of life by carefully targeting their searches, but not aliens (another Sagan argument). Humans use advance bases near targets of interest, but never aliens (used in the skeptical argument that small UFOs couldn't possibly fly interstellar distances). Humans go on extended migrations and forever leave their own home behind, but never the aliens, etc., etc. Humans have been whizzing through space around the sun for millions of years not going any place in particular. The lesson here is that it doesn't matter much how long the journey is when there is plenty to do and one can make replicas to carry on (multigenerational travel). Not too long ago, sailors used to go on 5-year voyages for little more than some rum and a few coins at the end. When you think that the average lifespan was only about 35 back then, this was a considerable percent of their life. Thus 50 years to the nearest star at 10% light speed as a percentage of life wouldn't be any different if one lived to be 350. Of course, star travel might also be accomplished by robotic representatives or partly biological androids that could have "lifespans" in the thousands of years. 50 years, as you say, would seem like nothing. However, as Bruce Maccabee points out in a darkly humorous essay on his website, extended lifespan has its costs (I think the essay is titled, "Welcome to the future--uggh!" Extended lifespan also brings up visions of rigid police states to stop the birth of children to prevent overpopulation. Do we really want a world with hardly any children? Or it might produce mass genocide to drastically reduce the population, with the "immortals" (probably the superrich and powerful) in charge. It could produce intellectual and moral stagnation, as the immortals set in their ways and with a firm grip on power prevent any changes to the existing order. Death is the great equalizer and sometimes the only way to get rid of very powerful and ruthless people. (The Stalins and Hitlers of this world are very hard to dislodge.) Shorter lifespans do have their advantages.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Re: UpDates List Politics - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:30:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 15:53:31 -0500 Subject: Re: UpDates List Politics - Kaeser >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:45:09 -0300 >Subject: Re: UpDates List Politics [was: Zamora's Eyeglasses] >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 00:38:10 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Zamora's Eyeglasses <snip> >>Debating dictates that both sides take opposite sides of the >>question, one side of which is wrong. I just wonder why you >>always pick the wrong side? >Dunno, just one of those crazy things! An interesting discussion. I think the key to this question lies in the goals of each side in the 'debate'. In a traditional debating contest, both sides have predefined positions and they are judged on their ability to score "points" against the arguements put forth by the opposition. In my opinion, UpDates is a 'discussion' List, rather than a "debating" List, but our discussions often take on the aspects of a 'debate'. In most discussions, neither side is open to being convinced that their position is in error. In my decade of reading the Update List, I've yet to see anyone go through a paradigm shift in beliefs as a result of the discussion put forth. It may have happened, but they were very
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Re: Passive Radar - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:52:23 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 15:55:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Passive Radar - Smith >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 20:32:06 +0100 >Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:36:11 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>Subject: Re: Passive Radar >Please feel free to talk in percentages. Again, I am basing it only on the reading cases (randomly selected at that!). UFO reports in which people call radar towers to figure out what the thing is and are told it is an airplane... these I am not including in the dataset mainly because I doubt such cases ever are reported since they are "explained". How many people go back to the radar records (which are likely dumped after a short period of time) using FOIA and correlate a UFO sighting with the radar data? Very few (<1%). I am talking only about UFO cases in which the UFO remains unexplained after the report is published and, in the description of the report, "someone" calls the tower to ask if anything is on radar. I would suspect that >95% of the radar operators say nothing is on radar to explain the UFO sighting AND nothing is even on the radar. I think if there were co- incidental unexplained radar contact this would be a VERY big deal and really be headline news. Instead, we "always" get the "nothing shows up on radar" story. I did qualify this in that we do not know if "nothing" really did show up on radar. Also, I agreed active radars are not perfect so it might miss something based on coverage, weather and other reasons. My whole point is that radar _may_ not be the panacea everyone wants it to be regarding UFOs. It certainly should not be the reason people _don't_ try other UFO field research tools because they are "waiting" for passive or even active radar. >>The cases of where >>there was an actual radar blip matching a TRUFO visual >>sighting seem very small. >Really? How small? How many cases are there? Which cases? What >population are you starting from, and how have you arrived at >this residue? As I said above, <5% based on my gut feel of reading reported cases. I will be happily corrected by those wielding UFO databases. >>Can we trust the airport responses? Who knows? >>If you do trust them you end up with "mostly" stealth ET tech >>(even given possible radar hardware/operational/conditions >>problems). If you don't trust them, you have no data. >I'm sorry, but this all seems like excuses not to undertake >proper study of the data or the problem. This whole thread began with my desire to have active and current UFO field research going on using existing "cheap" tools (e.g. automated computer imagery) and Sparks said passive radar was the only way to go and that my recommendation was invalid. >I don't know anything >tangible about your "airport responses" or stealth ET. What I do >know is that we have credible and sometimes detailed reports of >radar and radar/visual events that I can't explain to my >satisfaction, and in context with the generality of Unknowns in >the database they argue that at least one "new empirical >phenomenon" (probably more) is likely. I agree that a small percentage of UFO sightings could be picked up with active or passive radar. The question is whether the cost benefit ratio worth it. In the long run it is, but people seem to want short term results. >If I was one of Peter's billionnaires, I'd fork over some cash. If the billionaire is not subject to the same pressures as a corporation or other interest that has strong links with the government, they should obviously chip in. Problem is that most folks with deep pockets get it via government interaction and are deeply affected by negative influences in that area. >>In the end, more data is required to see if it is justified to >>use active or passive radar for UFO research since it is so >>costly. >Yes of course data are required. We can't prove that the problem >is worth funding. This is Catch 22 because the purpose of the >experiment is to get the data to do this! We can only use >persuasion and good judgement. Peter Davenport has encountered >apathy or suspicion or both. But we have to argue the case >positively. Competition for funds constrains all areas of new >science. Actually, existing passive radar research _should_ have confirmatory UFO data within it that can be used to encourage investment. Also, obviously the historical UFO cases of optical and radar confirmation should be used to show that it can happen, but also we need to show why added radar (active or passive) will make any difference when these past cases did not change the world as we hope the passive radar would when tied to optical data. >>It reminds me of "GhostHunters" where they have a very >>expensive thermal imaging camera, but rarely get decent "ghost >>images" from it. >Since no work has even been planned yet isn't it a bit early to >talk in ruefully amused tones about the failure rate of passive >radar surveillance? This was merely an example of investing most or alot of your resources into a measuring device which has a low probability of "catching" the phenomenon. The same thing occurs in the medical world where we could go into the doctors office with a cold but they could test you for every known disease. It would be nice to know if you are _not_ infected by a rare disease and if the testing device is cheap, a great screening tool, but since it is likely to give a zero positive result on all the infections (except a cold) and the cost is likely very high, it may not be worth it to test everything. This may not be acceptable to the few people whose lives are saved by finding a rare disease, but in general it is the most practical approach. >>Hummmm. Well, we shall see. RF has never been my strong suit. >>It seems devilishly hard to use received weak signals. >Er... ? What else is radar but a device to use received weak >(incredibly weak!) signals? I don't understand you. Comparatively speaking, an optical signal is very strong and an active radar signal even though reflected off a distant object is likely very strong since the active radar is generating a EMF strong pulse. The passive radar commonly desires the relatively weak continuous signal (compare to an active radar pulse) from a signal source not designed to be good for passive radar. Also, this weaker signal must go through and reflect off all sorts of things as well as the UFO and then pass through more stuff (weather) to the receiving antenna. It seems to me that passive radar must use weaker signals unless the military has a clear channel specifically tuned, calibrated modulated, strength signal for its use. >>If you have >>a nice clear channel source, then it would be much less of a >>problem. I am sure the military has some nice systems, but they >>can afford their own signal generator (at their own desired >>signal design, deployed whereever they want). >I don't think you grasp the nature of the opportunistic passive >radar systems that we've been talking about, the kind that have >been widely studied for research _and_military_ applications. >They don't use dedicated signal generators. They are _designed_ >to use ambient "signals of opportunity" from commercial sources >- generally FM radio or TV. Multistatic active radar is another >ball-game. Yes, I do. But just because the radar is called passive, does not mean it only uses AM/FM stations. I read somewhere which I can't find after some Googling, that the military satellite tracking system uses passive radar with emitting stations around the country. Maybe I misread it, but it seems possible. >>The interesting thing is that Davenport has gotten zero support >>from deep pocketed folk and academic institutions have given >>him the cold shoulder. Whether this is because of pressure due >>to the government wanting this technology "limited" . . . >I really think this is a nonstarter. The principles, hardware and >processing algorithms that we have talked about and referred to >are all public domain and have been for many years. Peter has >been trying to sell a project based on already-implemented >"white" technology and open source research. Obviously there is >classified work too but we don't have access to that and we >aren't talking about it. Yes, I know this. But explain the lack of interest. You can easily find articles in the Internet about concerns of passive radar making Stealth aircraft vunerable and hoopla about selling such systems to certain nations. Maybe regular folk _can_ build one, but the government isn't likely to make it easy or desirable to support this. >>or whether they want "real UFO data" limited is unclear. >Government pressure to stop passive radar work in order to >corral UFO data? I hardly think so. Just trying to come up with a reason for no funding. >It can't be stopped anyway. >R and D is going on all over the world, at an increasing rate, >in all sorts of civil and military applications that we know >about, never mind those that we don't. They might as well try to >stamp out the sale of binoculars to prevent aircraft >identification. Yes, I agree that its out of the bottle. But I am not privvy to behind the scenes mechanations in this research/development. >>The cheapest way is to use academic data streams somehow >Yes, as I said this might be done provided the pitch for access >or partnership is sufficiently cunning and done through the most >conservative of ufological channels. Exactly. >>(hopefully it has not been TOO filtered). >Too filtered? More covert government censorship of academic data >sets? Whilst I'm all for great caution, I have the feeling that >you are looking around for problems to justify your initial >disbelief in this technology. No conspiracies, just technology. If the science automatically filters out things they don't want to look for or need to look for then we won't get data of any use. This is either based on antenna design, hardware sensitivity, software design, storage, etc. Its not because they saw a UFO and erased it based on government requirements. They may just look at a meteor pattern and erase other data to save storage space.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Re: Gill Sighting - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 18:54:38 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 15:56:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Gill Sighting - Rimmer >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:06:13 -0800 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >Well for once Christopher Allen is right and I stand corrected. >However, this still doesn't change the fact that Gill denied >reading UFO literature and "mother ship" in a UFO context was >very rarely used in mainstream newspapers in the U.S. This is >based on electronic searches of newspapers, not proclamations of >fact backed up by nothing from the likes of Rimmer and Allen. >Like I said previously, their "evidence" amounts to little more >than reading Gill's mind and somehow knowing that Gill was >already familiar with UFO motherships even though Gill said he >wasn't. I second Jerry Clark's statement that "psychic Ufology" >is pretty useless if not laughable. The significant phrase above is "mainstream newspapers in the U.S." I do not have any psychic abilities, but what evidence, psychic or otherwise, do you have that Gill read American newspapers, more specifically those which happen to be indexed in the search engines you have access to? As Peter Rogerson has pointed out in another post, popular UFO imagery was widespread in Britain in the 1950s, perhaps more so than in America, especially in the popular weekly newspapers and magazines which are unlikely to be indexed.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 14:13:25 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 15:57:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Boone >From: Nigel Watson <nigelwatson1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:30:47 +0000 >Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 13:39:00 EDT >>Subject: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? <snip> >So far this List has mentioned the 'big' UFO movies but as >Kottmeyer has pointed out it is the small B-movies that often >feature elements that have unwittingly infiltrated abduction and >UFO stories. >Nigel Watson Ah! Reminds me of a UFO flick I saw in college. I stayed up late one night and the Late Show at CBS 2 in New York ran "The Bamboo Saucer". That one took me by surprise. I had later read it was banned or taken out of circulation after it's release for some reason. It's about group of U.S. scientists who must infiltrate Red China to retrieve a saucer hidden in an old abandoned Catholic church. A team of Soviet scientists and commandos are sent too and the two teams work together to solve the mystery whilst the Red Chinese troops close in. Very, very, interesting goings on occur as the mathematicians use old fashioned slide rules and paper to solve the riddles of the ship's flight and guidance and general operations. A nice suspense thriller at that! A must have! I'm off to the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 A Nice Synchronicity From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:22:39 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 15:59:57 -0500 Subject: A Nice Synchronicity I thought I'd share this synchronicity. I've recently returned from a brief lecture tour in California, where I gave talks to MUFON Orange County, MUFON Los Angeles and the San Diego UFO Society. I'd finished my first presentation on the evening of October 19 and was in the local Denny's in Costa Mesa, with about a dozen of the people from the Orange County talk. It was about 11.30pm and we were discussing the relationship between science fiction and ufology. I was making the point that while some sceptics claim that UFO witnesses and abductees are influenced by science fiction, one can cite numerous examples of where science fiction draws its material from ufology. At that point, my cell phone rang and the caller apologised for calling so early. I said that as I was in California it was late, not early. The caller was from a BBC radio station. A story had appeared in the UK media about paranormal belief. Various percentages were cited for belief in UFOs, alien abduction, time travel, ESP and other strange phenomena. One theory being put forward for belief in such phenomena was that TV programs like Doctor Who or Star Trek were at least partly responsible. Would I be available to do an interview over the phone? I don't mean to imply anything spooky by citing this synchronicity, but the audience in Los Angeles appreciated it when I shared it with them the following evening and I thought you might like it too.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Secrecy News -- 10/31/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 14:15:42 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:01:48 -0500 Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/31/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 101 October 31, 2005 ** WHITE HOUSE NAMES NEW PFIAB MEMBERS ** FITZGERALD ON LEAKS AND THE ESPIONAGE ACT ** SECRET DHS TRANSPORTATION STRATEGY DRAWS FIRE ** SASC REPORT ON THE 2006 INTEL AUTHORIZATION ACT ** MISCELLANEOUS RESOURCES WHITE HOUSE NAMES NEW PFIAB MEMBERS President Bush has announced the names of a dozen individuals whom he will appoint to the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board (PFIAB), the White House intelligence oversight body. Stephen Friedman, an investment banker and a previous PFIAB member, will serve as the next PFIAB chairman. Other appointees include former congressman Lee Hamilton and former National Reconnaissance Office director Martin Faga. See the full list in this October 27 White House announcement: http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2005/10/wh102705.html PFIAB "provides advice to the President concerning the quality and adequacy of intelligence collection, of analysis and estimates, of counterintelligence, and of other intelligence activities. The PFIAB, through its Intelligence Oversight Board, also advises the President on the legality of foreign intelligence activities," according to a description on the White House web site. As an intelligence oversight mechanism, PFIAB is inherently flimsy. It provides no public accountability to speak of. Yet given the diminished state of congressional intelligence oversight today, PFIAB has arguably become more important than ever. Recently, for example, the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) was able to uncover a series of investigative violations committed by the FBI because of a provision requiring agencies to report such violations to the PFIAB's Intelligence Oversight Board. There is no requirement that the violations be reported to Congress. "It's because of section 2.4 [of executive order 12863, requiring reports to the PFIAB IOB] that we got the recent documents of alleged abuse by the FBI under the Patriot Act," said Marc Rotenberg of EPIC. See the documents here (3.1 MB PDF file): http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/usapatriot/foia/iob.pdf FITZGERALD ON LEAKS AND THE ESPIONAGE ACT The section of the Espionage Act that prohibits the unauthorized disclosure of national defense information is "a difficult statute to interpret," said Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald. "It's... a statute you ought to carefully apply." Mr. Fitzgerald, who announced the indictment of Vice Presidential chief of staff I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby on perjury and other charges last week, acknowledged widespread concerns about using the Espionage Act to punish leaks to the media of classified information, such as the identity of CIA officer Valerie Plame. "I think there are people out there who would argue that you would never use that [i.e. the Espionage Act] to prosecute the transmission of classified information because they think that would convert that statute into what is in England, the Official Secrets Act." "I don't buy that theory, but I do know you should be very careful in applying that law because there are a lot of interests that could be implicated in making sure that you pick the right case to charge that statute," Mr. Fitzgerald said at his October 28 press briefing on the Libby indictment. Although the Espionage Act has not been invoked in Fitzgerald's ongoing investigation, using it to punish leaks remains a live issue in the prosecution of two former officials of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee for allegedly mishandling classified information. (See Secrecy News, 10/19/05). The potential use of the Espionage Act to punish leakers was addressed lately by Morton Halperin, myself and Larry Johnson in "Complexity of Prosecuting Leakers Stirs Concern" by Larry Abramson, NPR Morning Edition, October 28: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4979174 SECRET DHS TRANSPORTATION STRATEGY DRAWS FIRE In an increasingly familiar complaint, the Department of Homeland Security was criticized for classifying its National Strategy for Transportation Security, a move which rendered it inaccessible to state and local governments, emergency responders and the public. "What use is it if the people who have to adapt to it don't know anything about its existence or what it says?" asked former Sen. Slade Gorton (R-WA) in testimony before a subcommittee of the Senate Judiciary Committee last week. "Are there elements in an overall transportation plan that we shouldn't broadcast to the world?" Sen. Gorton continued. "I'm sure there are." "But the existence of the plan and what people who are in the private sector need to know about the plan in order to carry out its recommendations-- of course they shouldn't be classified." "The difficulty here in the United States... is the ease with which information is classified; the temptation once it's classified not to share it, often even with other agencies and the like; and the extreme difficulty of getting declassified. This is just a particular example," Sen. Gorton said. The controversy was reported in "U.S. in dark on security plan" by Lisa Friedman, Los Angeles Daily News, October 27: http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_3154426 SASC REPORT ON THE 2006 INTEL AUTHORIZATION ACT The pending intelligence authorization act for fiscal year 2006 was reviewed and modified by the Senate Armed Service Committee in a new report on the bill. Most of the Committee's changes are classified, but the unclassified report describes several actions that generally reflect Defense Department interests. The amended bill would specify that the authority of the Director of National Intelligence over human intelligence does not extend to tactical intelligence; would limit the authority of the inspector general of the intelligence community with respect to matters within the jurisdiction of the Pentagon inspector general; and would advance a controversial freedom of information exemption for operational files of the Defense Intelligence Agency. It would also shorten the duration of a pilot program permitting intelligence agency access to official Privacy Act records from four years to two years. See the Senate Armed Services Committee report on the 2006 intelligence authorization act, Sen. Rept. 109-173, October 27, 2005, here: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_rpt/srpt109-173.html MISCELLANEOUS RESOURCES A variety of noteworthy publications, some widely reported and some not, have been issued in recent days, including these: The National Intelligence Strategy of the United States, which incongruously proposes "the growth of democracy" as an intelligence objective, was issued by the Director of National Intelligence on October 25: http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2005/10/dni102505.html The indictment of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby on perjury, obstruction of justice and other charges was announced in an October 28 news release: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/10/libby.pdf A copy of the indictment itself is here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/jud/libby_indict.pdf U.S. policy towards Africa during the Nixon Administration is the subject of a new volume of declassified government records published in the State Department's official Foreign Relations of the United States series. The full text, published only online, is here: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/nixon/e5/ Foreign language capability and regional expertise shall "be considered critical competencies essential to the DoD mission," a new Department of Defense Directive states. See DoD Directive 5160.41E, "Defense Language Program," October 21, 2005: http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/d5160_41.pdf Government access to criminal history records to determine an individual's suitability for participation in highly classified special access programs is addressed in DoD Instruction 1304.23, "Acquisition and Use of Criminal History Record Information for Military Recruiting Purposes," October 7, 2005: http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/i1304_23.pdf The pilots and support personnel who engaged in paramilitary operations as part of the CIA "proprietary" known as "Civil Air Transport" and "Air America" from 1946 through 1976 are not considered to have been "active duty" military personnel for purposes of benefits provided by the Department of Veterans Affairs, the Secretary of the Air Force has determined. See this October 18 Federal Register notice: http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2005/10/fr101805.html _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 14:23:23 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:03:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Boone >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 13:14:54 -0400 >Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 13:39:00 EDT >>Subject: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? ><snip> >>As for the documentaries, any single one would you pick? >>So, what are your choices and why? >I still like my UFOs ARE Real from 1979 and still available. >It includes interviews with Betty Hill, Marjorie Fish, Travis >Walton and Mike Rogers, Dr. Bruce Maccabee, Dr. George >Mitchell >(Ohio State U. Astronomer), Dr. James Harder, Dr. Richard >Haines, Major Jesse Marcel Sr., Colonel Lawrence Coyne, >myself, >stuff about the Iranian Jet Case, Astronaut Gordon Cooper,the >Catalina Island and 4 corners footage, a number of stills, a >nuclear rocket in operation as well as the electromagnetic >submarine in motion etc., etc. I tried to keep out the Billy >Meier segment, the only one I didn't endorse. I was co-script >writer, consultant, travel planner, on location, etc. >This film covers a great deal of ground with outstanding people >and was filmed in California, Arizona, Louisiana, Ohio, >Tennessee, New Hampshire, etc. I like it better than my 2 >volune >"Flying Saucers ARE Real", though it is now available as a 2 >volume DVDand includes footage shot at the Kennedy space >center. >Another TV documentary I liked was "The UFO Incident" with >James >Earl Jones and Estelle Parsons playing Barney and Betty Hil as >shown on NBC. No UFO library would be complete without your documentaries Mr. Friedman! I always wait til you're on a talk show when you offer your package discounts! Problem is soon as I buy something I end up giving it to someone who needs to see and read the materials! I keep the autographed ones! I have two "Crash at Corona"s left. One is autographed from the 50th Anniversary at Roswell. I'll mosey on over to your site again as it's too tempting not to. "The UFO Incident" is a must have too. Did they put out a deluxe edition on DVD yet? It would be great if they did with commentary from cast, crew, UFO investigators and friends of Mr. and Mrs. Hill. That movie doesn't cover all the details but it's awesome! It's well directed and superbly acted and the ending is one where it doesn't paint the authorities as overbearing mystery monsters. Just guys trying to do their job with a mystery they hadn't solved at the time. That "Fire in the Sky" had one of the scariest endings in years but from what I've read it's a Hollywood recreation and inaccurate. Acting in it and direction and effects are outstanding though. Best thing about a good UFO movie or documentary is if it gets people discussing the subject and researching on their own to make up their own minds. I think it would be cool if Jerome Clark's encyclopedia were turned into a DVD set. Interactive at that so students could reference and know the cases and terminologies. Thar's money in them UFOs and we need more films and especially
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 14:32:46 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:04:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Boone >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 12:04:26 -0500 (Eastern Standard >Time) >Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 13:39:00 EDT >>Subject: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? ><snip> >On September 12, 2001 I got an e-mail from a UFO investigator >who wanted to know further details about the film documentary >'Alien Technology' (NYIIFVF Award Winner, LA 2001) which >was >scheduled to be shown in Manhatten (about 4 miles north of >WTC) >tonight. A very small advertisement in The Living Arts section >of the 'The New York Times', for Monday, September 10, 2001 >titled 'Item' had this to say: >Despite Federal Government attemptes via the National Security >Act to prevent its first public screening, "Alien Technology" 48 >minute Documentary hosted by Stacy Keach will commence as >scheduled on: Wednesday, September 12th, 7:00 PM at: >Clearview >Theater 239 E. 59th St. (between 2nd and 3rd Ave.) Admission >$10 >Nyfilmvideo.com Ticketweb.com 1(866) 468-7619 >According to this same UFO investigator, 'Alien Technology' >(directed by Scott McClintock) includes vintage newsreel >footage >and interviews with Pentagon insiders. Harvard's psychiatrist >and alien abduction expert, the late Dr. John Mack, is also >interviewed. >When I phoned Clearview Theater in New York City after the >911 >attack at the nearby WTC complex and the Pentagon in >Washington, >D.C. (coincidence or government cover-up?) to ask if the >showing >of this UFO documentary would be resheduled, no one there I >spoke with knew anything about the 'Alien Technology' film >documentary! >You can try to order a copy directly from the producer (Scott >McClintock at Nile River Productions Inc.) but I have never got >my own copy of this film in the mail after I ordered and pre- >paid for it in June of this year. In case my original order was >lost in the mail, I have just reordered this film. Since I have >now paid for two copies of 'Alien Technology', if I get two I >will be happy to give one to you to add to your small but >growing DVD UFO collection. Wow! That's an eye opener for sure Nick! It's sounds like a must have documentary for sure! Gotta have it! We also need to look into why was the documentary of such concern by the NSA? Is that authenticated that they did that? What data is presented that would ruffle their feathers? We should all try to order a copy and confirm whether any shenanigans occur during the shipping process. Does anyone actually have a copy? What about foreign documentaries? I know Japan has numerous ones but haven't seen any. France, Russia, China? Matter of fact the Russian film and documentary producers should realize they could make a good grubnitz or two with a well done project. Especially in the abduction arena. If their abductee/contactee data correlates with others that adds seasoning to the stew for sure.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Koi From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:18:08 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:08:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Koi >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 13:39:00 EDT >Subject: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? >I'm sitting here at my desk looking at the ever growing row of >DVDs and noticed the the only UFO based movies so far collected >are: >The Day The Earth Stood Still by Robert Wise, Roswell by Paul >Davids and Close Encounters Of The Third Kind by Spielberg. ><snip> Greg, I'm not sure how many of them you'd consider to be UFO based movies, but I've cut and pasted below a list of the movies that I've currently included in the draft UFO/SETI chronology that I'm working on. As with other entries in the draft chronology, the selection is generally based on frequency of discussion in UFO/SETI books (rather than artistic merit ...). To avoid irritating those that aren't interested, I've merely included the basic list of movies. If anyone wants the deleted details and references just let me know. (These will in any event be included in the substantial extract from the UFO chronology which is should be ready for (free) circulation within the next few weeks, after over two years work). The date and title should be enough to find further details anyway. Credits and other details are included in the relevant Internet Movie Database (imdb) entries online at: http://www.imdb.com/search By the way, it is interesting to note that my selection has rather limited overlap with the list of UFO movies compiled by Chris Rutkowski at: http://www.geocities.com/thecynicalview/ufomovies.htm Chris Rutkowski's list is definitely worth a look since it includes short comments on the relevant films. In terms of DVDs that I'd recommend buying, you've already got two of my personal favourites (The Day the Earth Stood Still and Close Encounters of the Third Kind). Other films near the top of a personal UFO Top Ten would have to include the 1953 War of the Worlds and (a slightly more quirky selection) Earth vs. the Flying Saucers Relevant current entries in the draft chronology include the entries for the following: 1950.0000 Movie: - Destination Moon 1950.0000 Movie: - The Flying Saucer 1951.0000 Movie: - The Day the Earth Stood Still 1951.0000 Movie: - The Man From Planet X 1951.0000 Movie: - The Thing from Another World 1953.0000 Movie: - Invaders from Mars 1953.0000 Movie: - It Came From Outer Space 1953.0000 Movie: - The War of the Worlds 1955.0000 Movie: - This Island Earth 1956.0000 Movie: - Earth vs. the Flying Saucers 1956.0000 Movie: - Forbidden Planet 1956.0000 Movie: - Invasion of the Body Snatchers 1956.0000 Movie: - Unidentified Flying Objects (UFO) 1957.0000 Movie: - Invasion of the Saucer Men 1958.0000 Movie: - The Blob 1959.0000 Movie: - Plan 9 from Outer Space 1960.0000 Movie: - Village of the Damned 1964.0000 Movie: - Firelight 1966.0000 Movie: - Invasion 1968.0000 Movie: - 2001: A Space Odyssey 1968.0000 Movie: - Five Million Years to Earth 1972.0000 Movie: - Solaris 1975.0000 Movie: - The Night That Panicked Americans 1975.0000 Movie: - The Rocky Horror Picture Show 1975.1020 TV Movie: - The UFO Incident 1976.0000 Movie: - The Man Who Fell to Earth 1977.0620 TV broadcast : Alternative 3 1977.0000 Movie: - Close Encounters of the Third Kind 1977.0000 Movie: - Star Wars 1978.0000 Movie: - Invasion of the Body Snatchers 1979.0000 Movie: - Alien 1980.0000 Movie: - Hangar 18 1982.0000 Movie: - E.T.: the Extraterrestrial 1982.0000 Movie: - The Thing 1984.0000 Movie: - Starman 1988.0000 Movie: - Alien Nation 1989.0000 Movie: - Communion 1993.0000 Movie: - Body Snatchers 1993.0000 Movie: - Fire in the Sky 1993.0000 Movie: - Invasion of the Body Snatchers 1994.0000 Movie: - Stargate 1994.0731 TV Movie: - Roswell 1995.0000 Movie: - Species 1996.0000 Movie: - Independence Day 1996.0000 Movie: - Mars Attacks! 1996.0000 Movie: - The Arrival 1997.0000 Movie: - Conspiracy Theory 1997.0000 Movie: - Contact 1997.0000 Movie: - Men In Black 1999.0000 Movie: - Mission to Mars 2002.0000 Movie: - Signs
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Re: Spellbound By Sky Lights - Allan From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:45:18 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:13:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Spellbound By Sky Lights - Allan >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 12:51:16 -0800 >Subject: Re: Spellbound By Sky Lights >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 23:12:42 -0700 >>Subject: Re: Spellbound By Sky Lights >>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 2:48 PM >>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Spellbound By Sky Lights >"A story Thursday [actually Friday] on mysterious lights in the >sky mistakenly attributed one of the lights to the planet Venus, >which actually sets in the west each evening, on the opposite >side of the sky from Mars." >I felt this didn't go far enough, since it still leaves the >impression that Mars had something to do with it. I emailed >Perlman again and reiterated the reasons why Mars should be >discounted as well (it was in the wrong part of the sky and >doesn't move, like the multiple objects in the Chronicle >photographer's photographs obviously did). I said further >clarification was needed from the Chronicle. I copied this to >the reader's rep who handles the "corrections". This time I've >heard nothing back. >In my email, I also again pointed out that Fraknoi is with >CSICOP and has a history of UFO debunkery. UFOs, in true >CSICOPIAN fashion, he labels "pseudoscience," along with such >things as astrology and creationism. (The guilt by association >tactic.) I also pointed out to Perlman that this wasn't the >first time CSICOP reps have used misplaced or invisible planets >to debunk UFO sightings, and specifically mentioned the 1986 JAL >Alaska incident where Phil Klass and CSICOP initially claimed >the UFOs were Mars and Jupiter. >>Judging from his instant response, my guess is that he got an >>earful from a lot of people besides me and is probably rather >>embarrassed about being taken in by CSICOPian Fraknoi. As I said >>before, Perlman is usually a very good science writer and seems >>fair and level-headed. >However, I suspect he is just going to let things stand as they >are and not issue any further retractions. I doubt Perlman >belongs to CSICOP, but he did write a puff-piece on them a few >years ago on their holy crusade against "pseudoscience": >Fraknoi's claim that Venus and Mars explain this latest UFO >sighting is a Klassic example of CSICOPIAN pseudoscience in >action yet again. I'm against true pseudoscience as much as the >next educated person, but using pseudoscience to supposedly >battle pseudoscience is truly ironic. Well done! Honestly! Why and how a professional astronomer (Andrew Fraknoi) could get the planetary positions so wrong amazes me and should amaze others too. Assuming he was quoted correctly, Fraknoi certainly ought to put the record straight and admit his cock-up.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Re: Gill Sighting - Allan From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:45:32 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:14:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Gill Sighting - Allan >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:06:13 -0800 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 23:09:20 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:19:51 -0700 >>>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>>I also took a gander at Keyhoe's popular 1953 book, "Flying >>>Saucers from Outer Space," which actually has an index. Again, >>>no "motherships." >>Have a look at Keyhoe's account of the December 6, 1952 Gulf of >>Mexico radar-visual case (in chapter IX). He refers to >>"mothership" at least three times. Twice it appears as two >>words, in the third instance it is a hyphenated word. (UK >>paperback edition). In his next book "The F.S. Conspiracy", >>Keyhoe refers to the sighting as "The Gulf of Mexico Mothership >>case" when conversing with a skeptic. >Well for once Christopher Allen is right and I stand corrected.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Former US Ambassador To Speak At ET Conference From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:46:52 -1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:17:26 -0500 Subject: Former US Ambassador To Speak At ET Conference Aloha List, Here's the latest press release for the forthcoming ET Civilizations & World Peace conference in Hawaii. Like the Hon Paul Hellyer, Ambassador John W. McDonald is another distinguished individual brave enough to come forward and speak to the topic of visiting ETs and the implications for world peace. The Ambassador has long been an innovator in international politics and has been a key figure behind the development of citizen diplomacy. His co-authored book, Multi- track Diplomacy (www.imtd.org) is a standard for many university courses, and I had the pleasure of having the Ambassador do a guest lecture in one of my graduate classes in Multi-track Diplomacy while teaching at American University. One of the most exciting aspects of the Ambassador's presentation will be on how the presence of ET civilizations will affect World Peace and International Diplomacy. In peace, Michael Salla *** Press Release: Ambassador John McDonald confirms to speak at the Extraterrestrial Civilizations & World Peace Conference. June 9-11, 2006, Big Island, Hawaii. [Kona, Hawaii, October 31, 2005] Ambassador John W. McDonald is a man who has devoted a lifetime to the art of peacemaking. An illustrious icon in the field of international diplomacy, he has spent over 55 years championing projects related to world peace issues and affairs. Therefore, the Exopolitics Institute is extremely honored to present Ambassador McDonald as our latest addition to the extraordinary speaker list for the Extraterrestrial Civilizations & World Peace Conference in June 2005. A career diplomat for the U.S. Foreign Service over a 40 year period, John McDonald was appointed Ambassador twice by President Carter and twice by President Reagan to represent the United States at various UN World Conferences. Mr. John McDonald is currently Chairman and co-founder of the Institute for Multi- Track Diplomacy, in Washington D.C., which focuses on national and inter-national ethnic conflicts. Deeply familiar with the challenges confronting the establishment of peace around the globe, Ambassador McDonald will address the conference topic of the implications of extraterrestrial civilizations and the establishment of world peace. Ambassador McDonald is the fourteenth confirmed speaker and only two speakers remain to be announced to complete our group of conference presenters. Coming Soon --pre/post conference events, including workshops, seminars and dolphin boat swim excursions will be added to the ET Civilizations and World Peace Conference website over the coming months. Conference seating will be limited, so plan your vacation and reserve your conference pass today! Other recent additions to our speaker list include Carlos Diaz, a Mexican contactee famous for filming the =8Cships of light=B9 and promoting peace and children=B9s education initiatives around the world. Also, J.Z. Knight, founder of the Ramtha School of Enlightenment, author of several books, and a featured speaker in the movie "What the Bleep Do We Know" will share her insights as a presenter. Ms. Knight has been addressing audiences around the globe and receiving standing ovations over her dynamic presentations on spirituality, enlightenment, extraterrestrials and other related topics. Conference information and registration can be found at: http//:www.etworldpeace.com We all can make a difference and help to effect this planetary change toward a new vision of peace and compassion. New advances in quantum physics are confirming what mystics and sages have stated for eons, we all create our own reality - so take a few moments to visualize world peace today and every day. Dr. Michael Salla, the Exopolitics Institute and I look forward to creating and sharing a remarkable, inspiring and educational conference experience for all. In Peace, Angelika Whitecliff Conference Co-organizer The Exopolitics Institute is a non-profit organization based in Kealakekua, Hawaii dedicated to studying the key political actors, institutions and processes associated with credible
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Re: Scientists Find Pyramids In Europe - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:06:04 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:18:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Scientists Find Pyramids In Europe - Balaskas >From: Joachim Koch <lists.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:21:57 +0100 >Subject: Re: Scientists Find Pyramids In Europe >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:36:22 EDT >>Subject: Scientists Find Pyramids In Europe <snip> >>Source: One News - TV New Zealand >>http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411366/622605 >>Oct 27, 2005 >>Archaeologists Find European Pyramid >I found a small video clip about that on: >http://www.infocast.dk/jp/jp.php?id=1172 Hi Everyone! If this is correct, it would be the first example of a massive ancient pyramid built in Europe. There are many smaller ones, including the tall and relatively very well maintained pyramid I saw near the ancient wall of Rome during my first visit to Italy back in 1981. http://tinyurl.com/afx3l In addition to the pyramids in Egypt (two friends and I explored the inside of the Great Pyramid south of Cairo by ourselves and we even crawled inside a cramped and very dark air shaft using a cigarette lighter to see where we were going) there are many others in the Americas, China (see URL below) http://www.earthquest.co.uk/china/china.html and similar massive triangular shaped structures in other parts of the world including the Pacific Ocean off Japan (see other URL below). http://www.morien-institute.org/images/Yonaguni2.jpg Even if the suspected pyramid in Bosnia proves to be a natural geological structure, the ages and the general shapes of these known pyramids which all postdate the Tower of Babel seem to verify the accounts in ancient texts, including the Bible, that Noah's sons migrated to different parts of the world and established new civilizations. The fact that these civilizations all came into existence quickly and all roughly at the same time may be just a big coincidence to some rather than proof of an ET intervention or role in this global catastrophic event in human history, but when one also considers that these civilizations had very similar customs, beliefs, traditions and architecture
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Fly To The Moon In A Balloon! From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 03:59:52 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:20:57 -0500 Subject: Fly To The Moon In A Balloon! The following extract is from: http://www.jpaerospace.com/atohandout.pdf It looks like a novel, simple, and viable project to explore the solar system. The main web site is at: http://www.jpaerospace.com Where there are details of progress so far. ----------------------------------------- The atmosphere as a ladder to space. Balloons have carried people and machines to the edge of space for over seventy years. JP Aerospace is developing the technology to fly a balloon or more accurately, their relative, the airship.directly to orbit. Flying an airship directly from the ground to orbit is not practical. An airship large enough to reach orbit would not survive the winds near the surface of the Earth. Conversely, an airship that could fly from the ground to upper atmosphere would not be light enough to reach space. The resulting configuration is a three-part architecture for using lighter-than-air vehicles to reach space. The first part is an atmospheric airship. It will travel from the surface of the Earth to 140,000 feet. The vehicle is operated by a crew of three and can be configured for cargo or passengers. This airship is a hybrid vehicle using a combination of buoyancy and aerodynamic lift to fly. It is driven by propellers designed to operate in near vacuum. The second part of the architecture is a suborbital space station. This is a permanent, crewed facility parked at 140,000 feet. These facilities, called Dark Sky Stations (DSS), act as the way stations to space. The DSS is the destination of the atmospheric airship and the departure port for the orbital airship. Initially, the DSS will be the construction facility for the large orbital vehicle. The third part of the architecture is an airship/dynamic vehicle that flies directly to orbit. In order to utilize the few molecules of gas at extreme altitudes, this craft is big. The initial test vehicle is 6,000 feet (over a mile) long. The airship uses buoyancy to climb to 200,000 feet. From there it uses electric propulsion to slowly accelerate. As it accelerates it dynamically climbs. Over several days it reaches orbital velocity. Both the climb to orbit and reentry are slow controlled processes. No high reentry heating, no big fuel tanks to explode. Once in orbit, the airship is a spacecraft. With its solar/electric propulsion, it can now proceed to any destination in the solar system. It is happening now. This is not fanciful speculation. The project is now over two decades in development with over eighty real hardware test flights and countless development tests. It is being built completely with existing technology. It's being built now. The high altitude airship has been built and is awaiting test flights. Several Dark Sky Station platforms have been built and flown. Every piece of equipment for this system has been carried to 100,000 feet and tested in the environment. The first crewed DSS is scheduled to fly in eighteen months. The ion engine 120,000 foot flight test for the orbital airship will be flown in the next five months. It's being paid for now. This new way to space has not and will not require a massive pile of capital to accomplish. Each component has its own business application and funding source. It is a pay-as-you-go system. For example, funding the atmospheric airship was provided by the Department of Defense for use as a reconnaissance vehicle. The DSS has multiple customers in the telecommunications community. When?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 PRG Update - November 1, 2005 From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG.nul> Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 01:09:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:28:42 -0500 Subject: PRG Update - November 1, 2005 PRG Paradigm Research Group PRG Update - November 1, 2005 X-Conference 2005 The 2005 Conference Photo Gallery is now posted. If anyone has photos from the 2005 event they would like included, please email or mail them to PRG. See: www.paradigmclock.com/X-Conference/Gallery.htm PRG Awards for 2005 The PRG Hall of Fame page has been updated with the 2005 inductees. The PRG Awards page has also been updated for 2005. Of note is the page for Lt. Col. Philip Corso which includes documents obtained via the Freedom of Information Act which confirm his military career, education, citations and commendations. Critics and debunkers have questioned his background. They were wrong. See: www.paradigmclock.com/halloffameportal.html and: www.paradigmclock.com/PRG_Awards.htm Exopolitics Column "Exopolitics: Words and Metaphors - The Men in Gray" was just published in UFO Magazine. PRG welcomes suggestions for additional "Men in Gray" to be added to a list in development. See: www.paradigmclock.com/paradigmarticlesindex.html X-Conference 2006 A date for a 2006 conference has not yet been set as funding is still being sought to underwrite outstanding accounts and the financial requirements for a successful third event. The X- Conference was not created as a "business venture." It was intended to be an extension of the truth advocacy process. A third conference will be held if it can be conducted at a level impacting the disclosure process. ________________________________________________________ Paradigm Research Group E-mail: ParadigmRG.nul URL: www.paradigmclock.com Cell: 202-215-8344 4938 Hampden Lane, #161 Bethesda, MD 20814 _________________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 1 Montana Blue Mountain Sightings From: Judy Mickelson <ufolady.nul> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 03:12:14 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 16:34:12 -0500 Subject: Montana Blue Mountain Sightings On Oct.18, my husband and I were coming out of a restaurant, when he said, oh, look at that, what is it? I turned and looked towards the Rocky Mountains called Blue Mountain and there was a very large and very bright something hovering over the Mtns. This was around 6:30pm and it was starting to get a bit dark. We stood and watched it for about a minute and now and then we would turn to look again and it was still there. It tilted and we got a sight of a triangular shaped ship. We couldn't stand there all night so we left. When we got home, we live on the 2nd floor of a 3 floor apt. complex and sometimes I can see a lot from up there but I couldn't even get a glimpse because a white cloud came over our section of the sky. I said, well, show is over. The next night, Oct. 19, we were driving out in the same area to do some shopping, when my husband said, look above the Blue Mountains again, is that the same ship we saw last night? I looked up and said, well it sure looks like it. It was huge and very bright. By the way the Mtns sit in the southern night sky. What was so odd about this sighting was the fact that we had had a pink sunset that evening, and there was a very long and thick looking chemtrail and it was a brilliant pink! It made it look as if it was under the hovering ship. Just a very strange sight in our sky. When we got home that evening around 7:30pm, I looked for the ship but all I could see was that chemtrail still there. We see a lot of chemtrails during the day and night time too, so it isn't that unusual to see one but this time the circumstances were a bit odd. This is not the end of this story. A friend of mine called me on Thurs. Oct.20 to talk and I said, wait, until you hear what we saw Tues and Wed! She said, what and I told her our story and she said, oh, for heavens sake, we saw a huge bright light hovering over our mtns up here. They live in Corvallis, Mt which is about 40 miles from where we live in Missoula, Mt. She said, my husband and I were sitting on our deck and he was dozing off, when I saw this coming closer and closer. I thought, what the heck is that and I nudged him awake and he said, oh, it's just a star. She said, star my foot, it is much bigger than that! She said, it was slowly coming over the top of us and suddenly stopped and hovered over us and our house. She went on to say that she could make out that it was a black triangular ship and only stayed for about 30 seconds, when it suddenly shot across the sky and it was gone. They live in the country and do not have any close neighbors so they get a picturesque night sky every night. No lights around to close out the stars or any thing. This is still not the end of my story. My girlfriend and I went to St.Ignatius, Mt on Oct 21,to pick up my medication and we met 2 friends at the Malt Shoppe for lunch. One of them had brought her daughter with her and she suddenly pulled out 2 pictures and threw them on the table. She said to me, what do you think of that, Judy? I picked one of them up and was looking at a black sky with a bright white cloud with a ship coming partially out of the cloud! I said, wow, where did you get this? We took it at our place a week ago. It was very impressive. I said, wait until you hear what we saw this week and also what Barb saw in Corvallis! Another friend who was there said, oh, come on, you didn't see another ufo did you? I never see one and I live in the country too! I laughed and said, we saw one two nights running, how do you like that?! Then I went on to tell them about ours and Barbs sightings. Jane says, when did you see the first one? I said, on Tues about 6:30 PM or so, why? She said, well, around 7PM, I was out in the garden and for some reason I looked up and there was the biggest brightest thing hanging over the Mission Range! The thing was huge and so bright it would knock your eyes out! We all said, man, what is going on. She said, I don't know but it hung around up there for about a couple of minutes and then just disappeared. I told them, I think we have all been visited, don't you? Yessss,we all replied. This is the end of mine and their tales! Did we call anyone and tell this to say the fellow in Seattle, Wa. No we didn't. We just thought it was an odd sort of week. A note: there is a UFO corridor that extends from Missoula down to Corvallis and Darby, Mt so some of this isn't unusual here, however it was an unusual set of circumstances for all of us to see a triangular ship visiting all of us around the same time.It will probably never happen again, although, I have seen triangular ships 2 years prior to this one so for me, it's
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 Re: The Term Mothership - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:13:02 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:05:08 -0500 Subject: Re: The Term Mothership - Ledger >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 17:52:53 +0000 >Subject: Re: The Term Mothership <snip> >Americans may not realise that, unlike in the States, George > Adamski's first book was a runaway best seller in the UK, >and was serialised and featured across the press. Donald >Keyhoe's second book was another big seller, especially in >the mass market Arrow edition. >If these cases are so weak as Don suggests, why is so much >time being spent arguing about them, or about the state of >the eyesight of witnesses from cases 40 or more years ago. >Is this because there are no good modern cases? I'm assuming that I'm the Don you are referring to, Peter. When I mentioned weak cases I certainly wasn't referring to Zamora's encounter. And there are good cases these days. But I find they don't get the hearing that the older cases did. These days there doesn't seem to be the resources to call upon as in the days of NICAP or the early days of MUFON. Now it's do it all on your own.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 Re: Breakthroughs In Genetics Leads To Secret Of From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 16:09:58 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:08:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Breakthroughs In Genetics Leads To Secret Of >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:32:14 -0800 >Subject: Re: Breakthroughs In Genetics Leads To Secret Of >Aging >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 12:22:35 EST >>Subject: Breakthroughs In Genetics Leads To Secret Of Aging <snip> >For some peculiar reason, extended life spans never seems to >factor into thinking of ETH skeptics or SETIist when it comes to >the possibility of interstellar travel by aliens. This is what >I call "The aliens are always dumber than the humans" >syndrome. <snip> >Shorter lifespans do have their advantages. >So be careful what you wish for. Thanks for the chuckles Dave Rudiak. Well needed! I agree with you there. We need to think in terms of the logical progression of survival. Although there appear to be drawbacks to extended life and also memory, the limitations of increased population, controlled birth rates etc. are the downside. That's given that during these forays into immortality that some smart guy doesn't spend time on coming up with a way to get people to behave and think with reason and commons sense. People behave badly due to fear. Plain and simple. Fear of loss of this or that. Mainly food, sex, housing, etc. When there is plenty people generally chill out except that few who are unable to get rid of their fear of loss or attack. Those are the nuts to watch out for. We also assume the sum of our intellect and minds are based on brain matter. There's far enough proof that it's not the brain matter as there are numerous clinical cases of people without higher brain matter due to injury, disease, genetics and still have triple digit IQs. Heck, there's tons of everyday evidence of people with all the brain matter the good lord gave em' and none of the common sense that should go with it. Maybe we're immortal already just changing identities to wipe out each lifetime's losses and foul ups. Would be quite a burden I reckon to remember each past life's deaths and boo boos. Grief might overtake one.. But let's look on the sunny side of the street here for once. One day we will beat 'body death' and perhaps discover a way to embue our consciousness into artificial life forms. As our awareness and responsibility increase we might be able to handle a body or two or three. Distance doesn't seem to be a barrier as some cell research indicates as well as quantum physics experiments. Invading a planet may not be as wham bang as sci-fi writers imagine. Perhaps an invasion is on a long term basis. Less collateral damage and more time to build immune resistant and aesthetic body forms. Just make your androids and set em' on automatic. With a universe as big as this one and theoretically an endless supply of universes we're not likely to run out of room or supplies. It's mastering the basic hurdles that count here. Think outside the box. Think way outside the box. We beat longevity and travel problems we beat processing
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 Beam Me Up Godly Being From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:13:16 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:13:16 -0500 Subject: Beam Me Up Godly Being Source: Slate.Com http://www.slate.com/id/2129111/?nav=3Dtap3 Oct. 31, 2005 Beam Me Up Godly Being Is alien abduction real=97or a creation of Hollywood? By Karen Olsson A few years ago, Harvard University could claim not one but two sets of researchers studying, of all things, alien abduction. Naturally=97this being academia=97a sharp divide separated the two camps. As chronicled by the New York Times Magazine and Psychology Today, members of the psychology department alleged that people's memories of extraterrestrial transport and unsavory probing could be explained by normal science=97i.e., that controlled experiments were able to come up with a list of terrestrial factors that added up to an "abduction experience." Over at Harvard Medical School, meanwhile, maverick psychiatrist John Mack had interviewed abductees and concluded that their experiences belonged to a mystical realm that science couldn't explain. Abductees' stories had convinced him that a "universal intelligence" resides in the cosmos, as he wrote in his 1994 best seller Abduction. The dispute at Harvard was a reflection, however baroque, of a long-standing divide within psychology, one dating back at least to the days of another Harvard professor interested in the supernatural, William James. On the one side you had the experimentalists who designed tests to support their claims about mind and memory; on the other, a clinical researcher primarily interested in interpreting subjects' narratives rather than the results of lab experiments. It seems the aliens have since left the campus: Mack died last year, while Susan Clancy, the psychology department researcher who originally interviewed and tested abductees, accepted a fellowship in Nicaragua. Now, though, Clancy has published a short, popular account of her research, Abducted: How People Come To Believe They Were Kidnapped By Aliens. The funny thing about Clancy's book is that it begins by trumpeting the virtues of science over superstition but ends up veering into Mack territory. Not that she thinks her subjects were truly nabbed by diminutive intergalactic sex researchers=97far from it. But in trying to make sense of their experiences, she ultimately relies on their personal narratives more than on the results of her laboratory tests, and she credits those narratives as meaningful, even if not literally true. Finally, she wants to say something general about the nature of belief. Abduction memories reflect peoples' desire to find the purpose of life: "Being abducted may be a baptism in the new religion of this millennium." E.T., meet Rick Warren. Book cover Is there any consensus about the psychology of alien abduction? Prior research has yielded a few insights, some of which are hardly surprising: People who believe they've been abducted tend to be fantasy-prone and eccentric, for one. On the other hand, they don't tend to be crazy. Most abductees are regular Joes, with decent jobs; though they have varying levels of education, they are predominantly white and middle class. In addition to an appetite for fantasy, researchers have identified several mental phenomena that often accompany a person's belief that she's been abducted: One is sleep paralysis, a relatively common experience during which the brain and the body desynchronize briefly before waking up. The body remains paralyzed (as it is during REM sleep) while the mind enters a state between sleeping and waking, in which some people hallucinate. The theory goes that a subset of the hallucinators, primed by popular culture to believe in visits from otherworldly kidnappers, interpret their experiences as abductions. Continue Article The second contributing factor is the mind's capacity to create false memories, particularly under hypnosis=97which is how many abduction "memories" have been retrieved. In fact, it was the study of false memory and trauma that led Clancy to the aliens. She started graduate school in the mid-'90s, as psychologists were duking it out over the validity of "recovered" memories, and signed on to assist two professors with a study of sexual- abuse victims. The professors gave subjects lists of words to memorize=97"sugar," "candy," "sour," "bitter"=97that were all related to another word, "sweet," that was not on the list. People who had allegedly recovered memories of sexual abuse while in therapy, it turned out, were more likely than a control group to remember "sweet" as having been on the list=97that is, to produce false memories in the lab. Of course, this did nothing to prove whether the women's abuse memories were themselves false, and Clancy and her colleagues were roundly attacked by victims' advocates and other scientists. So, the researchers went looking for another set of subjects=97people whose memories were assumed by most people to be false=97and they wound up with alien abductees. Again, their work revealed that abductees were also more likely to misremember words than a control group. Alas, they were attacked on the same grounds: How dare you question the veracity of other people's firsthand experiences? It's impossible to disprove these experiences. But what's interesting is how many seem to have been largely shaped by popular culture. Speculation about extraterrestrial beings is ancient, but "alien abduction" as we know it originated in the 1960s, after a New Hampshire couple named Betty and Barney Hill claimed to have been kidnapped by extraterrestrials. Betty was a fan of movies like Invaders From Mars. Her story inspired a best-selling book, a TV movie, and Steven Spielberg's Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Many more people began to report abductions, which in turn led to more books and movies, which led to more people claiming to have been abducted=97in a sense, it was Hollywood that had abducted them. In a chapter of The Varieties of Religious Experience called "The Reality of the Unseen," William James attested to the existence of a "sense of reality" distinct from the other senses, in which "the person affected will feel a 'presence' in the room, definitely localized, facing in one particular way, real in the most emphatic sense of the word, often coming suddenly, and as suddenly gone; and yet neither seen, heard, touched, nor cognized in any of the usual 'sensible' ways." As evidence, James produces several firsthand accounts from people who were visited by "presences" late at night. These have a familiar ring: They sound just like stories from alien abductees, minus the aliens. Objects of belief, James says, may be "quasi-sensible realities directly apprehended." Clancy doesn't quite grant reality status to aliens, but on the other hand, Abducted devotes much more space to abductees' stories than to her lab results. That's probably at least in part because the stories=97both those that the abductees tell and the ones she tells about her research=97are much more entertaining than research protocols; this is a book aimed at a general audience. But it's also because narrative is a better vehicle for understanding why people believe what they do than a set of lab results is. When it comes to the ambitious project of explaining the why and wherefore of "weird beliefs," Clancy's book doesn't tell us too much more than James did: People believe in this stuff because it seems real to them, more real than any reasoning about sleep paralysis or the unreliability of memories produced during hypnosis. But Clancy goes on to assert, muddily, that people conjure up aliens to satisfy religious desires (unlike James, who did not grant religion status to perception of "presences"). People's imagined contacts with aliens, she speculates, arise from "ordinary emotional needs and desires. We want to believe there's something bigger and better than us out there. And we want to believe that whatever it is cares about us, or at least is paying attention to us. Being abducted by aliens is a culturally shaped manifestation of a universal human need." To conclude that alien abduction is a religious experience seems a stretch. (Admittedly, I have not yet been contacted.) And it also seems a cop-out, since Clancy is not religious and didn't study the religious tendencies of her subjects. Instead, her research hints at=97but does not ultimately tell us much about=97the way in which pop culture permeates even our subconscious minds. However you want to categorize alien abduction, the fact that pop culture schlock fills our dreams may be the eeriest part of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 Aliens Sighted Saturday In Belleville From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:17:21 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:17:21 -0500 Subject: Aliens Sighted Saturday In Belleville Source: The Monroe Times - Monroe, Wisconsin, USA http://www.themonroetimes.com/o1031puf.htm Monday, October 31, 2005 Aliens Sighted Saturday In Belleville By Mike Leverton The Times BELLEVILLE -- Humans, aliens and other extraterrestrials gathered Saturday in Belleville for the community's annual UFO Day. The event has been going strong in Belleville since UFOs were sighted there Jan. 16, 1987. Lindsay Brockert, a member Belleville Chamber of Commerce event planning committee, said several different sources reported unidentified flying objects flying between Belleville and New Glarus. "If you're driving along (Wisconsin) 69 up the hill before Belleville, they were sighted to the left of that," Brockert said. "A Belleville police officer saw them and his partner saw them. Then different people looking out their windows all saw them, too." The police officers reported seeing flashing red, blue and white lights suspended about 1,000 feet in the air about two miles south of the bluffs. Eventually, the lights moved to the southwest, accelerating until they were quickly out of sight. On March 6, 1987, several Belleville citizens again reported seeing UFOs, this time in the afternoon sky and cigar-shaped. Between January and April 1987, there were more than a dozen reports of UFO activity from Belleville and New Glarus residents. Bob and Barb Belle, also of Belleville, said a group near Elgin, Ill., that verified UFO sightings, actually confirmed there were objects that flew over Belleville in January. "There were sightings all over the world about that same time," Bob said. Bob, a former teacher, said he once had a student in Arlington Heights, Ill., write a story about UFOs after researching several UFO stories. "It was very interesting at that time because no one really talked about UFOs." Saturday's UFO Day included a haunted ride for kids, a parade, a craft fair, a quilt fair, the UFO Fun Run, pumpkin decorating, a chili cook-off and a monster costume ball. Held on Halloween weekend, the event drew a mixture of costumes, including witches with their faces painted green, a young Pharaoh, three girls dressed as chickens, a vampire, Batman and an alien with four eyes. In the middle 1990s, Belleville made a proclamation concerning UFOs, Brockert said, naming itself the "UFO Capital of the World." Mike Leverton can be reached at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 Classifications To Account for 'Alien' Life From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:24:31 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:24:31 -0500 Subject: Classifications To Account for 'Alien' Life Source: Physorg.Com http://www.physorg.com/news7700.html October 31, 2005 Book Expands Biological Classifications To Account for 'Alien' Life What would you call an alien if you encountered it on the street tomorrow? What if that alien didn't come from another world but rather was created in a laboratory right here on Earth and functioned differently from other Earth life? Either way, Peter Ward has the beginnings of an answer. In a new book, the University of Washington paleontologist puts forth an expanded "tree of life," or biological classification system, to account for a variety of life forms that would not fit in the current system. Among them are viruses, long considered to be non-living bits of protein and nucleic acid but which Ward argues are as alive as the many parasites that infect humans and other organisms. The revamped classification system also would include life based on RNA instead of DNA, and life found away from Earth that likely would be based on silicon or elements other than the carbon- hydrogen-oxygen-nitrogen mixture that is the backbone of life on Earth. "To get to DNA life you had to go through non-DNA life, which we no longer have," Ward said. "But just because a type of life goes extinct doesn't mean you don't classify it. Otherwise you wouldn't have dinosaurs on the tree of life. And until now there hasn't been any place to put RNA life." In the current popular classification system the highest levels are three domains =96 bacteria, archaea and eukarya, the last of which includes all animals. Ward's plan places those three domains within a larger dominion, which he calls "terroan" to signify Earth origins. Another dominion he calls "ribosa" because it is based on ribonucleic acid, or RNA. Other dominions could be formed to cover life discovered to have a different base than DNA or RNA. The dominions would be placed within broader classifications called "arborea," which contain life that does not mix with that of other arborea. The Earth arborea would contain all life forms found on this planet and other arborea would contain life found away from Earth. Ward presents his new model in a book called "Life As We Do Not Know It: The NASA Search for (and Synthesis of) Alien Life," published by Viking and being released Thursday. The new system is already necessary, he said, because "alien" life has been created in laboratories on Earth. That includes microbes with at least one amino acid beyond the 20 in the DNA of native Earth life, or organisms that have been genetically modified, Ward said. It also includes some life forms that have been modified to be much simpler than what is normally found on Earth. "We may never find other life away from Earth, but we have already made aliens on this planet and we will continue to do so at an increasing pace," he said. "In the last five years we've come to realize that we can make microbial life in a lot more ways than Mother Earth did." Ward believes that if life is found away from Earth, at least some could be based on elements such as silicon, perhaps in combination with carbon. Because environments are far colder on moons and planets farther from the sun, he said, it is less likely that life on the moons of Saturn and Jupiter, for instance, will use water as Earth life does. Instead, those organisms are more likely to use compounds such as ammonia that remain liquid at very low temperatures. Ward is one of several faculty members in the UW's groundbreaking graduate program in astrobiology. The program, the first of its kind, started in 1998 with a grant from the National Science Foundation and has since been bolstered by funding from the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Students work in a variety of areas, such as astronomy, microbiology and oceanography, to prepare themselves for the search for life away from Earth. Ward also was a co-author, with UW astronomer Donald Brownlee, of a popular book called "Rare Earth," published in 2000. The book advanced the idea that simple microbial life might be very common in the universe but complex life is probably so rare and dispersed that Earth inhabitants might never encounter another intelligence. Ward said his beliefs haven't changed from the basic "Rare Earth" premise, but it is becoming clearer that simple life found away from Earth could take forms not previously expected. That's already happening in Earthbound laboratories. "I hope people will wake up and realize this is a whole new biology," Ward said. "There's going to be a zoo of aliens on Earth in the next two decades just from what we make."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 28 Reports Of UFO Sightings In Wales From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:30:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:30:10 -0500 Subject: 28 Reports Of UFO Sightings In Wales Source: The Western Mail - Wales, UK http://tinyurl.com/8km9m Oct 31 2005 28 Reports Of UFO Sightings In Wales Paul Rowland Western Mail The Ministry of Defence has investigated 28 official reports of UFO sightings in Wales in the past three years. The close encounters include a black object hovering over Rhyl, a flying disc over Newport and a spinning craft with legs spotted in the skies above the Valleys. The figures, released under the Freedom of Information Act, show that there were seven sightings in 2002, eight in 2003, four in 2004 and nine so far this year. An MoD spokesman said it would be a waste of money to investigate the sightings fully, but believed there were
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 Re: The Term Mothership - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 21:43:44 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:41:08 -0500 Subject: Re: The Term Mothership - Rimmer >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:56:10 -0600 >Subject: Re: The Term Mothership >As Greg Sandow has remarked (and as John has remained tactfully >silent in response to), empirical demonstration of psychosocial >speculations is virtually never a part of the pelicanist >argument. As I have had occasion to remark on a few occasions >in the past, this is literary criticism, not science. No wonder >the wheels of psychosocial ufology continue to spin year after >year without ever getting anything but polemical traction, and >barely even that.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Adams From: Brian Adams <ufosource.nul> Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 15:29:57 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:42:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Adams >From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:18:08 -0000 >Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? >Relevant current entries in the draft chronology include the >entries for the following: <snip> Add 1984-85 to the list an American TV miniseries called "V". Those reptilians disguised as humans really impressed me.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 Re: Scientists Find Pyramids In Europe - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:06:20 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 10:26:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Scientists Find Pyramids In Europe - Boone >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:06:04 -0500 (Eastern Standard >Time) >Subject: Re: Scientists Find Pyramids In Europe >>From: Joachim Koch <lists.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto >><ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:21:57 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Scientists Find Pyramids In Europe >>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:36:22 EDT >>>Subject: Scientists Find Pyramids In Europe ><snip> >>>Source: One News - TV New Zealand >>>http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411366/622605 >>>Oct 27, 2005 >>>Archaeologists Find European Pyramid >>I found a small video clip about that on: >>http://www.infocast.dk/jp/jp.php?id=1172 ><snip> >Even if the suspected pyramid in Bosnia proves to be a natural >geological structure, the ages and the general shapes of these >known pyramids which all postdate the Tower of Babel seem to >verify the accounts in ancient texts, including the Bible, that >Noah's sons migrated to different parts of the world and >established new civilizations. The fact that these civilizations >all came into existence quickly and all roughly at the same time >may be just a big coincidence to some rather than proof of an >ET >intervention or role in this global catastrophic event in human >history, but when one also considers that these civilizations >had very similar customs, beliefs, traditions and architecture >too (just like these pyramids), this to me is very compelling >evidence that all human "races" are very closely related - and >continue to be of special interest to ETs, both then and now. >Nick Balaskas Thanks for the links Nick Balaskas. I had a link to a startling website that had images produced by the U.S. Navy of large pyramids off the U.S. Eastern continental shelf. Some way out there in the ocean with straight lines leading from one pyramid to another. Then trickling off toward the Caribbean. I've got to have those images in my files somewhere so I'll dig around. Very startling stuff. Shows either at one time the oceans either weren't there or receded or perhaps even that before the Atlantic Ocean formed there were structures built that eventually ended up under the ocean. There's no telling as each year we push the human history dates back further. I had to toss out just about everything I had learned in college about the hominids alone due to recent discoveries. However, I'm not one for the ETH as the foundation of these architectural achievements. No proof nor evidence whatsoever other than cave paintings and ancient manuscripts that could be interpreted all over. Bottom line is, pyramids are all over. Older than previously thought and that changes things quite a bit. The Bosnian pyramids are manufactured structures as the latest stories describe the stairs discovered leading into them. We still fathom at how ancient civilizations moved such immense stones and placed them so accurately. We do have cranes and such to lift and place massive weight as evidence of how we hoist and place the Space Shuttle on top of a 747. Perhaps the mechanisms used in days of old have now rusted or were dismantled. The giant stones were lifted somehow or perhaps liquified and poured into a mold. We don't know yet I'm far from even remotely assuming some alien was responsible. We don't know how smart folks were in antiquity. There could have been massive quantum leaps in awareness and technology due to diet, genetics, safer environments. Given enough time and rest people can come up with all sorts of nifty things. The only things holding us back are the constant persistence of our cultural, religious, political delusions we drum up to wedge between us. We could make Earth a paradise in no time if we all worked together but some of us are so insane we infect others through force and threat of force. Do you believe what you believe because you've observed it for yourself or did someone force you to believe it through threat of injury, loss of comraderie? We need to bury our vanities and deal with our collective insanities or we'll never make it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 22:16:18 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 10:29:05 -0500 Subject: Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors - Hall Wendy Connors has very generously turned over to me some five hours of oral history interviews she conducted with me a few years back, in the form of digital video cassettes. A Canadian List member has volunteered his time to edit the tapes and produce a DVD master which I can then have duplicated and offer for sale. I would also like to have a VHS version. The catch is that I can ill afford the costs of duplication, and so am seeking sponsors. Anyone who cares what I have to say about the UFO subject and my role in research and investigations from my 50-year perspective (please, please, don't break down the doors... easy now, no stampede) is invited to contribute to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 Re: Fly To The Moon In A Balloon! - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:17:20 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 10:37:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Fly To The Moon In A Balloon! - Boone >From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 03:59:52 -0000 >Subject: Fly To The Moon In A Balloon! >The following extract is from: >http://www.jpaerospace.com/atohandout.pdf >It looks like a novel, simple, and viable project to explore the >solar system. The main web site is at: >http://www.jpaerospace.com <snip> Awesome! If we're just finding out about it might it have been in use for the past 50+ years already? Reminds me of a joke I saw on the old "Mr. Peabody" cartoon show. In that episode Peabody and his boy Sherman went back in time to thwart an invasion of England during WWII. After the escapade Peabody tells Sherman that the Brits had an escape plan. They would pile their entire population into a balloon and make haste. Sherman, querying Peabody's account was told by Peabody, "What? You've never heard of 'One Nation In Dirigible'?'
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 Re: Passive Radar - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 21:55:44 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 10:46:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Passive Radar - Balaskas >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:52:23 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >Subject: Re: Passive Radar <snip> >I am talking only about UFO cases in which the UFO remains >unexplained after the report is published and, in the >description of the report, "someone" calls the tower to ask if >anything is on radar. I would suspect that >95% of the radar >operators say nothing is on radar to explain the UFO sighting >AND nothing is even on the radar. I think if there were co- >incidental unexplained radar contact this would be a VERY big >deal and really be headline news. Instead, we "always" get the >"nothing shows up on radar" story. <snip> Hi James! During a recent visit to the solar neutrino observatory (SNO) deep underground in Sudbury (located about a 5 hour drive north of Toronto), I noticed that their detection instruments were picking up signals of many other mysterious energetic particles in addition to the neutrinos which originate from the Sun. Since the energies of these mysterious particles were not within the range of energies for neutrinos which they were interested in, they were simply ignored! This practice is not uncommon by researchers and especially by operators of commerical equipment such as airport radars systems. Back in the 1970s when I got interested in getting my private pilot's license, the flying club I was a member of was given a tour of the air traffic control (ATC) tower at Toronto (now Pearson) International Airport. I asked the head air traffic controller if they ever detected anything unusual on radar. I was told that when he was working at ATC in Gander(?) back in the 1950s, they would frequently detect objects moving at Mach 3 or three times the speed of sound. We now know that the secret SR-71 Blackbird was flying back then. Now (the 1970s), we detect objects moving at Mach 9 he said, which he concluded were more advanced aircraft that are still secret. Modern airport radars have filters to eliminate everything not behaving within the usual characteristics of commercial aircraft, including the occasional truck that used to be picked up in the past when radar bounced off the ground, etc. Like the specialized detection instruments at SNO, just because UFOs are no longer picked up by modern airport radars is that these instruments are not designed or used to detect them so when we read "nothing showed up on radar" after a UFO was reported in the sky, this is not entirely correct. One personal example is the statements by people on the ground at the airport in Cayo Coco, Cuba who witnessed a red light moving low over the airport which caused our aircraft to abort its landing. When I spoke to the flight crew about the reason for the evasive actions taken by our pilot (was it to avoid a possible collision with a UFO?) they dismissed it as faulty equipment. Below is a recent UFO sighting over the Toronto area reported by Chris Rutkowski which could turn out to be "a VERY big deal and really be headline news" if someone bothered to ask if either Toronto ATC radar or the aircraft anticollision radar system present in many modern airliners detected this UFO. Without asking, this sighting can easily and resonably be explained as a distant meteor if it was seen close to the horizon (even trained observers such as pilots can mistakenly interpret such a distant meteor as an object at the same cruising altitude). Toronto, ON 21 October 2005 1057Z, (0657 local EDT) Four pilots of two different commercial airliners reported to the Toronto Air Traffic Control Centre that they had observed a "shiny, silver object" flying at an altitude of approximately 30,000 feet. The object disappeared from sight heading eastward over Lake Ontario in a matter of seconds. The sky was clear and the visibility was excellent at the time. >Yes, I do. But just because the radar is called passive, does >not mean it only uses AM/FM stations. I read somewhere which I >can't find after some Googling, that the military satellite >tracking system uses passive radar with emitting stations around >the country. Maybe I misread it, but it seems possible. Canadian amateur and professional are pioneers in this new and growing hobby of passive radar, especially the use of a network of radio stations to allow them to not only to detect meteors and other fast moving objects in our upper atmopshere which ionize the air around them, like the Space Shuttle on re-entry, but to also determine their original trajectories in space. Avoid trying to reinvent the wheel by checking out the web site below for details and further leads. http://www.gsoft.com.au/skiymet.html Philip Gebhardt of Pickering, Ontario (just east of Toronto) is an expert on this subject and has written an excellent article titled 'Radio Detection of Meteors' for the 'Observer's Handbook 2005' of the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada of which I am a Life Member. Check out his web site below. http://www.odxa.on./meteor.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 New UFO Sightings Map: 1948-1949 From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 00:22:32 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 10:48:02 -0500 Subject: New UFO Sightings Map: 1948-1949 Hello All: I just put up a new UFO Sightings map for North America. Sandwiched between the wave years of 1947 and 1950, are the two slow years of 1948 and 1949. Those two years were very slow in this database, averaging about 1/5 the sightings listed for 1947 and 1950, and easily ignored. To highlight the sightings I did list, the borders and coasts on the map are darkened to a nice Halloween orange color. Both years are combined on a single map. "1949" in the upper RH corner refers to the last chronological record retrieved. I was a toddler when these events took place. A few further observations are on the web page: http://www.larryhatch.net/NAM4849.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 Filer's Files #45 - 2005 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 05:31:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 10:57:44 -0500 Subject: Filer's Files #45 - 2005 Filer's Files #45 -- 2005 George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International November 2, 2005, Webmaster ChuckWarren www.nationalufocenter.com Galactic Civilization brought our DNA This week's files cover: Did a Galactic civilization seed Earth, Shuttle videotapes UFOs over the Pacific Ocean. In addition, witnesses saw UFOs over California, Florida, Hawaii, Illinois, Michigan, Nevada, New Jersey, Utah, and Washington. Many witnesses saw objects in Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Canada, Costa Rica, Italy, Peru, and the United Kingdom. The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world. These Files assume that extraterrestrial intelligent life not only exists, but my hypothesis is that of the over one hundred UFOs reported each week, many represent alien craft. The United States Air Force Project conducted a worldwide investigation of UFOs from 1947 until December 1969 and disbanded its investigative team, so we are continuing the investigation. An Intelligent Galactic civilization Francis Crick, the discoverer of DNA, and Nobel Prize winner published a book which subscribed to the theory of intelligent design, that our universe was not simply the result of a series of chemical accidents. He states, "Life did not evolve first on Earth, a highly advanced civilization became threatened so they devised a way to pass on their existence. They genetically- modified their DNA and sent it out from their planet on bacteria or meteorites with the hope that it would collide with another planet. It did, and that's why we're here." The DNA molecule is the most efficient information storage system in the entire universe. The immensity of complex, coded and precisely sequenced information is absolutely staggering. The DNA evidence speaks of intelligent, information-bearing design. Complex DNA coding would have been necessary for even the hypothetical first =91so-called=92 simple cell(s). Our DNA was encoded with messages from that other civilization. They programmed the molecules so that when we reached a certain level of intelligence, we would be able to access their information, and they could therefore "teach" us about ourselves, and how to progress. For life to form by chance is mathematically virtually impossible. Astronaut Buzz Aldrin the second man to walk on the Moon was interviewed on the Science Channel show last week called, "The First on the Moon The Untold Story" and announced that on the third day of travel from Earth the entire crew saw and filmed a UFO, some two hundred thousand miles from Earth on July 19, 1969. Buzz states, "There is something out there, that was close enough to be observed. And what could it be?" The announcer states, "Traveling along side Apollo 11 was a curious object like this one filmed on a later mission that was not part of their own rocket it could only be one thing; a UFO. Based on the above testimony, and the knowledge that our satellites are picking up UFOs several times a week, we can assume that our Solar System is part of the territory of an advanced Galactic civilization. It would also seem logical that an advanced civilization would build bases on many planets and moons. The more than five hundred UFO reports we receive each month point to underground and undersea bases on both Earth or a spaceship orbiting relatively close to Earth and Mars. The large number of penetrations of our atmosphere by UFOs indicate an alien Mothership must be relatively close to Earth. An area of equal gravity exists about two-thirds of the distance between Earth and our Moon. This is where the astronauts now admit they were inspected by a UFO. Edgar Mitchell the sixth man to walk on the Moon has also stated he knows there is other intelligence in the universe. We should search for evidence of alien bases on Earth, Mars and the Moon since it only reasonable to assume the UFOs are coming from an area relatively close. Lights and other anomalies have been reported by astronomers for hundreds of years. Huge spaceships could also be used to carry smaller scout craft, or satellites to watch Earth. An alien intelligence that exists in our general area of space would likely require food, water and minerals to carry on their civilization. Our research indicates aliens have been observed taking on water, collecting food stuffs including fish, capturing animals and mining for minerals. Additionally our atmosphere includes oxygen needed for breathing. Many of the craft penetrate over the poles and move along the coasts. They are frequently seen above power lines and thunderstorms. If they take on too much electrical energy we have power blackouts. They are often seen entering and leaving bodies of water indicating undersea bases. We can further speculate a galactic civilization would likely have only a few small bases difficult to detect. They may have developed sophisticated camouflage systems to prevent high quality photographic study of their craft. They would likely need to forage for food, minerals and water. Therefore, the most likely place for bases on Earth would be undersea or in remote mountainous areas. By watching where the craft enter and leave the US should provide clues to the location of these bases. Off the coasts of California, Maine, North Carolina, Washington, Florida, Argentina, Australia, Canada, Japan, and UK seem likely spots based on frequent reports. Project Proves UFOs in space Dr. Oren Swearingen (DDS) of Texas and Flint of Belgium spotted anomalies during the STS-114 Shuttle mission. They had been watching "live" NASA Select TV coverage of the STS-114 mission. Both of these men saw a high speed UFO conducting maneuvers in space over the Pacific Ocean between Hawaii and the West Coast. These men referred to what they had seen on their television screens simultaneously at 13:54 GMT, 6 August 2005. The incident inspired them to write Jeff Challender with a request that he review his VHS tape for the time in question. Dr Swearingen also sent me a copy of the tape for review. A 41 frame animated GIF is centered on the final 55 seconds of the sequence containing the anomaly. In the original VHS tape, played at normal speed, this object seemed to come to a stop, and reverse itself. But research shows that it flew though the field of view, and made a long curving swing to the right. As the Sun rose higher toward the end, the clouds over the ocean far below were illuminated. In the final frames, the arcs of milky light which moved as the camera moved, were caused by the Sun lighting up the optics in the camera. Jeff was able to enlarge the anomalous object 500% and then cut it from the original 720x480 frame. This object maneuvered in an intelligent manner and conducts a 180 degree turn, proving it is operating with its own power. Thanks to Jeff Challender =A9 2005. Please go to see the extraordinary video at. "ttp://www.projectprove.com/Arts/114u/114u.php California discs and triangular craft ALL ACROSS STATE -- Residents across California and people as far east as Las Vegas reported seeing strange lights in the sky late Wednesday, October 27, 2005. San Francisco resident Tim Sinclair said the lights appeared to be near the cross at the top of Mount Davidson Park. Sinclair, who lives near the park, described them as a series of solid lights that appeared to be hovering. When viewed through binoculars, the lights appeared to vibrate, he said. According to military spokesman at Vandenberg, Travis and Edwards Air Force Bases there were no military aircraft in the sky or test missile launches that would have caused the lights. The Federal Aviation Administration's West Coast office had no reports of the lights and no aircraft were unaccounted for. "ttp://www.sfgate.com/cgi- bin/article.cgi?f=3D/c/a/2005/10/27/BAG7VFEOC81.DTL EAST OF MODESTO -- On my way to work in the mornings I have been seeing some unusual activity over the Sierras. At 7:20 AM, on October 12, 2005, when I noticed several jets moving south and north over the mountains. Then I saw a brilliant crescent-like object 35 degrees above the horizon. The jets seemed to be skirting near the UFO, but the crescent object flew higher. Suddenly, a spherical UFO shot out of the crescent-like object and flew up. As the sphere moved upwards, the crescent stopped moving, and began to fade away until you could no longer see it. The sphere moved up until it looked like a bright star, then it gradually faded. On October 14, 2005, I decided to take my camera with me and I took some interesting pictures. Thanks to Brian Vike MODESTO -- R. David Anderson writes, "I have been setting my camera for a night time exposure of three seconds, and at that setting I have been getting pictures of orbs. I have been taking pictures at night at a park and cemetery where there have been reports of strong paranormal type activity. In this picture there are three bright orbs that arch in front of a tree. When I studied these pictures and zoomed up on the individual orbs, they looked to be very geometric and seemed to have a square in the center. This is very unusual for a light source to display such properties. I have gotten so many pictures with orbs that I have created a separate page at my web site on this topic. To see www.ufobase.net MENDOCINO =96 Wanda, a licensed professional reports, "We were laying in bed looking out the window on October 8, when Wanda said, =91"Look at the moon coming over the hill." I said, It doesn=92t come up in the south!" Then a cluster of white lights appeared over the ridge and left, a huge glow was on the other side of the mountain. I couldn=92t go up there for some reason, since I had a feeling of helplessness. It was about 1000 yards away so we went over the next morning and there was a 25 feet in diameter burned spot on the back side of the hill. We saw no tracks. This location is 20 miles from anyone and in the mountains so I don=92t know who I could take a soil sample to. The light glow kept dimming and disappeared after about 45 minutes. Wanda saw what she thought was a shooting star when the glow disappeared. Thanks to Wanda. Florida two UFOs near Lake Wales BOK TOWER GARDENS =96 Two witnesses On September 11, 2005, at Noon 50 Miles East of Tampa report, "We recently returned from vacation and took many pictures of the tower and noticed a triangular shaped object to the left of the tower. It is yellow and appears to have a red line running through it. There is also an object near the triangle, but we can't make that out. The odd thing is that we took two pictures of the tower and this object appears on the second picture only. We didn't notice any object at the time and there was no wind. Investigator's Notes: A high resolution scan reveals that one object is triangular shaped with a red circle in the middle. The other object also appears to be a triangle from a different angle. I don't believe that the objects are birds, kites, balloons, etc. The witnesses sent me a print of a photo taken right before the above photo. No anomalies are seen in that photo. Therefore the anomalies are unlikely to be due to any debris on the lens of the camera. He used a Nikon F55 camera with a Nikon 70-300 mm lens to take the photos. Given current information I have no explanation for the objects in this photo. Thanks to UFO Northwest "ttp://www.ufosnw.com/lkwalesfl9112005.htm Hawaii photographs by Navy Chief KANEOHE BAY =96 A US Navy Chief stationed in Honolulu was taking photos of the picturesque scene and did not see the UFO flying in the images on October 21, 2004, at 2 PM. Three photos with UFOs are available at: http://www.ufoevidence.org/newsite/sightingdetail.asp?ID=3D3935 Thanks to Jason Dunn and UFO Evidence Illinois moving lights continue CHICAGO -- A Police Officer reports, "I saw a red light moving across the sky very slowly and totally silent at 4 AM, while walking my dog near Midway Airport It was a very clear morning on South Normandy Street when I saw a red light in the sky which was moving slowly from southwest to northeast on October 2, 2005.. I see airplanes all the time, but this did not appear to be an airplane because it was just a RED light which didn=92t flicker on and off like on an airplane. There was absolutely no engine noise. Later, I read in the Southtown Newspaper about people who saw similar lights. Thanks to Peter Davenport Michigan White Sparkler Type Object CONSTANTINE -- I was pulling out of the parking lot of the college on September 19, 2005, at 9 PM, and I saw a sparkler type light. The best way to describe the way it moved is like a child with a Fourth of July white light sparkler moving it in their hand while walking around. The light had a jerking movement, at a medium pace speed. It flew over the college parking lot and headed toward the town. A few times it looked as though the light had stopped and then came back like it was losing power. I followed it to the end of the college drive. The light was bright and a giant sparkler flying at 10 mph in a waving line at 15 to 20 mph, not as high as a jet. Thanks to Brian Vike Mississippi UFO imaged GULFPORT =96Several photos were taken of anomalous objects on Pass Road, the morning after Katrina. These objects do not appear in any other photo I took that morning so I have ruled out any problem associated with the camera. This is the first of two photos that appear to have UFOs in them - Look to the dark anomaly on the right top of this photo - taken with a digital camera (Canon) - just north of what used to be U.S. Highway 90. Thanks to Dr Warren M. Holdenbach Former State MUFON Director for Mississippi Nevada big orbs explode LAS VEGAS =96 "There is a lot of activity around here almost on a daily basis and last night October 30, 2005, was no exception. I will give you some details along with a few photos I took. Due to a car accident I have trouble sleeping and about 3:15 AM, on October 29, 2005, I had gotten out of bed and happened to see a a huge glowing orange ball 750 feet high in my backyard. . With my arm extended the object was the size of a tennis ball. It was extremely bright and staying solid and flying slowly east. I ran inside and awakened my friend Candice and when she saw it she could not even speak. It was still moving very slowly at about ten mph. I took about four pictures with different patterns from one picture to the next. I also took a close up per your suggestion. When I took the last picture something ejected from the object and two seconds later a bright flash lit up the sky followed by an explosion right after. It must have been pretty low because you could see smoke from the explosion. The explosion awakened my 11 year old son and he came outside to see. It began to fade out then back in again. It lasted for about 25 minutes total. This is exactly the same thing I saw on two other occasions. The flash and explosions are kind of scary. Thanks to Scott New Jersey triangle and disc CHERRY HILL -- Three white objects in triangle formation hovered, then the objects flew away from each other at high speed on October 3, 2005, at 11:15 PM. I saw a triangle shape made of three distinct objects hovering in the sky. I was driving at the time, and eventually slowed down to make special note of this object. It hovered for over a minute, followed by the objects flying off into separate directions. This quickly told me it was not a solid triangle with three lights. I could only track one of them flying to the west, which shot off at high speed. The objects themselves were all circle/ball shaped with a large bright white center. They all had small blinking red lights around this central white area. They were as big as a dime held at arms length. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com COOKSTOWN =96 "My name is Frank and around 10:30 AM, on October 17, 2005, I was sitting on my porch and saw a shiny silver sphere hovering for about three minutes." I ran to get my spotting scope to see it up close but when I came back it was gone. It was so cool to see it just hovering in mid air on a bright sunny day. Thanks to Frank... Oregon UFO photographed by truckers HIGHWAY 12 -- Jeff Challender reports, "In eastern Oregon near the Idaho state line a truck driver took this photo with his cell phone camera." He was riding on the passenger side of the cab, and took the picture through the right side window. The dark rectangular objects are the right side truck mirrors, and the light colored block along the right border of the picture is a reflection on the inside of the window. I spoke with the witness over the phone about his sighting and he stated that he and the driver, who was at the wheel, were approaching some hills and noticed the object in the sky up ahead. As they neared the location, the object was "hopping around above the hills in a flight pattern like a buzzing housefly below a thin cloud layer." The man further stated that an acquaintance in the U.S. Navy looked at the photograph, and tried to match the object with a known aircraft, failing to do so. The Navy man also told him that no conventional aircraft has lights of the blue color seen in the picture. The witness was very upset over the sighting at the time, and it took him over two months to feel comfortable reporting it. May God Bless you and yours. Thanks to Jeff Challender Utah UFO photographed by surveyors FOUNTAIN GREEN -- Mike K. reports, "The object was seen in the mountain range just directly south of mount Nebo near Nephi, Utah and two miles southwest of Fountain Green on September, 16, 2005." I was with two other co-workers setting up a GPS base station-when I noticed an object projecting a soft glowing light. I pointed it out to my co-workers and they both agreed it was not a helicopter since it made no sound and was too big to be one. We were at 8500 feet and the object was southeast of us about two miles away at 7000 feet altitude. It appeared as a dot of light with a metallic sheen around the light. The object traveled up the ridge of the mountain range across from us at a lower elevation and began hovering in the same spot for 15 to 20 minutes. I rushed back to the helipad where the helicopter dropped us off and grabbed my digital camera and zoomed in on it to get a better look at it. There was a soft glow of light or energy emitting from the centre of the object in a gyrosycronis pattern. It was a top shaped craft of some sort that flew near us from 8:30 to 9:00 AM, so the sun was to the east on the other side of the craft low in the horizon. I would say the object was about 15 to 20 meters wide and can not be explained by any conventional man-made or natural objects? Views on UFOs, before and after sighting: I find that with the trillions of galaxies in the universe that we would be ignorant to think that there are no civilizations that have developed the technology to fold space and travel in speeds we could not even fathom with our infantile technology . Reported To: MUFON Washington More Orange Lights SUMNER =96 I=92ve been seeing an orange light in the sky for 3 days and nights now. The first night, October 2, 2005, it was following a brilliant white light and the orange light was there in the daylight, too. Second night it was there barely moving from its spot and still there in morning. Third night it was shooting an orange beam of light and suddenly another orange light would appear under the beam and then the top light would blink and jump - there were also 3 to 4 other lights that showed up, orange light gone in morning. Tonight it was blinking with a red light on it. Thanks to Skywatch-International, http://www.skywatch- Brazil videotape BUENOS AIRES -- Ricardo E D'angelo reports, "During four consecutive years, my little observatory has captured UFO flotillas over the city. The first time occurred October 16,1999, producing a great deal of electrical energy in my neighborhood. Several people and friends, observed this in a moment. I ran to the porch of my house and observed the craft. I noticed the cars were stopped, and their motors were not running or starting. At 17:00 hours, I could see in the sky a UFO, spherical and metallic brown in color. I was near a girl friend, who had a video camera in hand. But upon lifting the videocam to record the mysterious UFO, the battery discharged in seconds, at that exact moment. Also, we felt a very strong headache which affected us. After four years of showing and giving this video to Astronomers and many investigators, the video was finally shown publicly and in some small fractions on the TV. Thanks to Ricardo E D'angelo www.glaucoart.com.ar Bolivia UFO wave continues OVER ORURO -- "Oruro is undergoing an UFO flap", said UFO specializt Alvaro Munguia Becker after witnessing and evaluating the recordings and photographs provided by journalists and citizens alike, taken since October 8. The ufologist reached our capital city yesterday and examined photos by journalists and citizens at the Private Business Federation. Munguia expressed admiration over the quality of the images and for those who took them. The ufologist did not venture if whether these were beings from other worlds or alien vessels or from other dimensions. However, similar images have been analyzed in Spain, the UK and the USA. "They fully match, and in closing we can say that the images taken by a varied group of individuals must be digitally analyzed in order to determine the number of pixels, color, heat and everything that these images might represent, eliminating all atmospheric or meteorological phenomena, ballistic missiles or advanced technology aircraft," he added. This sittings commenced on October 8 and we are now on the 29th of October still recording UFOs. Source: http://www.lapatriaenlinea.com/index.php?option=3Dcom_content&task =3Dview&id=3D13516&Itemid=3D1 Canada more sightings TORONTO =96 On October 6, 2005, around 1 AM, I observed a bright red light that appeared to be hovering somewhere above the lakeshore in downtown Toronto, slightly east of the Toronto City Center airport. I was about 2-3 km away from the lakeshore when observing this object. I was watching for probably five minutes and then it just vanished completely. Thanks to Brian Vike BURNABY, B.C. -- While I was walking home on October 18, 2005, on Kingsway Highway at 7:30 p.m. I saw a circle of blinking lights on my street that goes downhill towards wooded Oakland Drive. The lights went around in a circle and then briefly joined in the middle and then darted outwards again for another round. This kind of a dance of lights, under a layer of cloud, kept following me as I walked downhill. They seemed to pause over the road outside of my home. A plane moved silently past the strange configuration of lights. I was very happy to get inside my home and call it a day. Thanks to Brian Vike www.hbccufo.com OSHAWA, ONTARIO -- Paul Michael Shishis writes, "On Wednesday, October 19, 2005, I pulled into the parking lot at the Oshawa Civic Recreational Centre at 9:30 PM and I witnessed a neon green perfectly round orb appear about 50 feet + above the building's roof. The speed was about 90 mph, diving towards the roof as to hit it. At arm=92s length it was larger than a baseball. The orb turned right towards the south just before hitting the roof and disappearing. I have also noticed that when Mars is close to Earth I see these orbs like Aug. 2003. and May. Mars is close again now. Thanks again, for providing important data for folks like us. Thanks to Paul Michael Shishis Costa Rica luminous objects SAN JOSE -- On October 29, 2005, six people who were sunbathing around a pool in a private club in the capital of Costa Rica, witnessed the transit of 10 to 12 luminous objects in formation heading west. These objects would stop, start, break formation and resume formation yet again, following their trajectory. The weather in Costa Rica has been cloudy and it was precisely at noon on Friday that the skies cleared up. The sighting lasted for ten minutes but the airport's radar did not admit to a contact. Thanks to the Planeta report with translation (c) 2005. Institute of Hispanic Ufology. Tehran Iran, Dogfight Mortimer reports that on October 25, 2005 - 10:46 AM 'For the first time, General Parviz Jafari, one of the Iranian Air Force F-4 pilots who actually flew the chase mission, describes one of the most credible of all UFO encounters, the famed "Tehran Dogfight." He give us his firsthand account of personally chasing this UFO across the skies over Tehran. This interview, conducted by Whitley Strieber and Dr. Roger Leir, is a worldwide first. No pilot who participated in the dogfight has ever come forward before. 'Listen as General Jafari describes from firsthand experience what the UFO looked like, and how it felt to chase it, and experience the bizarre events that transpired in the cockpit of his jet. There have been few other firsthand reports like this from pilots, and this is by far the most frank, the most complete and convincing such report ever recorded.' (Dreamland audio stream). http://vista.streamguys.com/strieber/102205.wma Editors Note: I briefed this report to the Commander of 21st Air Force and his staff in 1976. Our planes were operating daily into Tehran and this incident was taken very seriously and investigated by both the US and Iranian Air Force. Italy UFO over the Vatican VATICAN -- Image taken on October 16, 2005 at The Vatican (Rome- Italy) by a Mexican tourist identified only with the initials E.F.T.R. using a Canon EOS Digital camera was employed and it is likely to be one of the so-called "invisible UFOs" as the witness did not see the object at the time that the photograph was taken. Thanks to http://www.analuisacid.com Translation (c) 2005, IHU. Special thanks to Prof. Ana Luisa Cid, Mexico Peru photo of possible alien LIMA -- Don Ware writes, "I=92m forwarding photos taken by Alfa Bidondo while in the Hotel San Remo in Lima. He was there as a speaker from Argentina at the 2nd World UFO Forum of Peru. You may want to share the image #161, appearing in his digital camera while set on automatic, with your audience. Image # 166 is apparently related but quite blurry and less interesting. This image was not seen visually, but at another time while in the room Alfa and a member of the host organization, Alpha Y Omega, both saw an anomalous light appear between them. Alfa and his brothers are noted for the interaction on camera and video of inter-dimensional beings and ships appearing while he meditates. Thanks to Noe' - UFO Researcher of Alpha Y Omega and Don Ware. www.peruufo.com UK Walien invasion: MoD probes UFOs WALES -- Matt Withers, Icnetwork reports that on October 30, 2005, that Wales is being invaded by little green men, with the Ministry of Defence probing a new UFO sighting every six weeks. MoD records show 28 official reports of UFO sightings over the past three years. They include objects with legs spinning over the Valleys, a flying disc over Newport and a large black object hovering above Rhyl. The MoD says there are probably "rational explanations" for the sightings, but it would be a waste of money to examine further. But alien experts say many of the sightings cannot be explained so easily and need examining. The figures, released under the Freedom of Information Act, show seven sightings in 2002, eight in 2003, four in 2004 and nine so far this year. Julie Monk, Director of Air Staff at the MoD, said they examined UFO reports only to check if foreign aircraft had entered UK airspace. She said: "Unless there is evidence of a potential threat to the UK from an external source, and to date no UFO report has revealed such evidence. we do not attempt to identify the precise nature of each sighting reported to us. "We believe that rational explanations, such as aircraft lights or natural phenomena, could be found for them if resources were diverted for this purpose, but it is not the function of the MoD to provide this kind of aerial identification service. "It would be an inappropriate use of defence resources if we were to do so." But Cardiff-based Ufologist Chris Fowler said there were facilities available to probe the sightings. He said: "Some of them I think straightaway sound like it's misidentification of planes, but some of them sound quite interesting. "The people who pilots report sightings to are called UK Airprox, who are staffed by a mixture of civil and military experts in their fields, so they actually have got the facilities to look into these things. "There are credible sightings. And either these are ours, which mean we've got technology far more powerful than the ones we know about, or they're somebody else's. I don't know more than that." Earlier this year it emerged a spate of UFO sightings in Wales prompted a secret Ministry of Defence investigation. Thanks to matt.withers http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_objectid=3D16 311677&method=3Dfull&siteid=3D50082&headline=3Dwalien-invasion--mod- probes-ufo-sightings-name_page.html Visit The Skywatch-International Web Site http://www.skywatch-international.org/ Michigan MUFON UFO Meeting George Filer will be speaking at the Michigan MUFON UFO Meeting on Sunday, November 6, 2005, at 1 PM. Walli's East Restaurant in Flint, Michigan. Contact Bill Konkolesky State Director Michigan MUFON wjk.nul (248).515.-9568 Filer's Files: Worldwide Reports of UFO Sightings Major George A. Filer USAF (Ret) & David E. Twichell are happy to announce the release of our new book. If you like Filer's Files newsletter and his monthly report in the MUFON Journal, you'll love the book! It is a collection of some of the most thought provoking UFO sighting and abduction reports from around the world by average citizens, trained observers, astronauts and U.S. presidents =96 with articles by Linda Moulton Howe and Michigan MUFON's State Director, Bill Konkolesky and more. Donate to Filer's Files to receive CD Your donations do make a difference in my ability to bring you the latest news! So you won't miss a single breaking news story or the increased evidence for UFO and life in the universe. George A. Filer has been bringing you the latest in UFO news since 1995, on radio, television and the Internet. Annual Membership is only $25 for 52 weekly intelligence reports. Don't miss the latest images of UFOs from Earth and Mars. Subscribe today and receive a free UFO Photo CD. Be sure to ask for the CD, Send check or money order to: George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055. You can also go to: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for majorstar.nul You may use Paypal, Visa, American Express, or Master Charge. MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership includes the Journal and costs only $45.00 per year. To join MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask questions contact MUFONHQ.nul or HQ.nul Filer's Files is copyrighted 2004 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue. These reports and comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to majorstar.nul Sending mail automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 C.D. Jackson & Robert E. Hohmann? From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 09:44:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 11:07:42 -0500 Subject: C.D. Jackson & Robert E. Hohmann? I am having trouble digging out background information on these two IBM engineers (C.D. Jackson and Robert E. Hohmann) who met with Betty and Barney Hill in the early 1960s. They may be dead. I know they published a paper at an American Rocket Society
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 Re: The Term Mothership - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 09:47:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 11:09:28 -0500 Subject: Re: The Term Mothership - Sandow >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 21:43:44 +0000 >Subject: Re: The Term Mothership >>As Greg Sandow has remarked (and as John has remained tactfully silent >>in response to), empirical demonstration of psychosocial speculations >>is virtually never a part of the pelicanist argument. As I have had >>occasion to remark on a few occasions in the past, this is literary >>criticism, not science. No wonder the wheels of psychosocial ufology >>continue to spin year after year without ever getting anything but >>polemical traction, and barely even that. >And the wheels of neo-ETH ufology have got us precisely where? We've gotten detailed, remarkably objective studies of many UFO cases, based on field research, careful examination of witness testimony, and science. It's ironic that with very few exceptions, skeptics have drawn on these studies, drawing conclusions from them without contributing any new information of their own. (New theories, either about particular cases or
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 Re: The Term Mothership - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 09:26:17 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 11:11:19 -0500 Subject: Re: The Term Mothership - Lehmberg >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 21:43:44 +0000 >Subject: Re: The Term Mothership >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:56:10 -0600 >>Subject: Re: The Term Mothership >>As Greg Sandow has remarked (and as John has remained tactfully >>silent in response to), empirical demonstration of psychosocial >>speculations is virtually never a part of the pelicanist >>argument. As I have had occasion to remark on a few occasions >>in the past, this is literary criticism, not science. No wonder >>the wheels of psychosocial ufology continue to spin year after >>year without ever getting anything but polemical traction, and >>barely even that. >And the wheels of neo-ETH ufology have got us precisely where? Well, but for the noisily obtuse and insentient negativism, plus the gleeful support of a thoroughly corrupted mainstream by conflicted persons such as yourself and an undead Philip Klass, I suspect we'd already be well down an efficacious path pioneered by people like James McDonald, A.J. Hynek, and Richard Hall, et sig al, Mr. Rimmer. Be not proud, _or_ insinuating, Sir. Pardon the hyperbole, but for you and Phil we'd be living in pressurized cities on the "Dark" side of the moon and constructing a living ring with the detritus t'wixt Mars and Jupiter... _be_ ashamed.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 Re: Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors - From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 09:36:20 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 11:14:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors - >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 22:16:18 +0000 >Subject: Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors >Wendy Connors has very generously turned over to me some five >hours of oral history interviews she conducted with me a few >years back, in the form of digital video cassettes. A Canadian >List member has volunteered his time to edit the tapes and >produce a DVD master which I can then have duplicated and offer >for sale. I would also like to have a VHS version. >The catch is that I can ill afford the costs of duplication, and >so am seeking sponsors. Anyone who cares what I have to say >about the UFO subject and my role in research and investigations >from my 50-year perspective (please, please, don't break down >the doors... easy now, no stampede) is invited to contribute to >the project via PayPal (dh12.nul) or check (a.k.a., >cheque), or money order. Contributors of at least $50 will >receive one or more copies of the finished product. >- Richard Hall
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 2 Secrecy News -- 11/02/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:41:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 11:16:56 -0500 Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/02/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 102 November 2, 2005 ** SECRECY NEWS NEEDS YOUR HELP ** SENATE MOVES INTO RARE CLOSED SESSION ** A LEXICON OF SECRECY ** AIR FORCE GLOSSARY ** A MILITARY GUIDE TO TERRORISM IN THE TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY SECRECY NEWS NEEDS YOUR HELP The Federation of American Scientists Project on Government Secrecy needs your support. The FAS government secrecy web site was cited repeatedly yesterday on Cable News Network after the Senate went into secret session. You can "learn more about the secret sessions we've been talking about," reporter Jacki Schechner told CNN's Wolf Blitzer two or three times throughout the afternoon, "through this website -- FAS.org. This is the Federation of American Scientists. On the left hand side of the page, there's a link for government secrecy....It'll tell you everything you need to know about secret sessions." It's no secret. On a normal weekday (without prompting from CNN), more than 70,000 distinct visitors come to the FAS web site to view hundreds of thousands of archived documents. Over 11,000 individuals now subscribe to Secrecy News directly, and innumerable others receive it through secondary distribution. But the future of this enterprise is not assured. Several of the philanthropic foundations that have provided the principal support for the FAS Project on Government Secrecy for the past 15 years have reduced or withdrawn their funding of our work, or redirected their support for open government advocacy to other organizations. If you derive value from our publications and our web site, and if you wish to do so in the future, please help to sustain our work. Tax-deductible donations may be made online here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp Checks (payable to Federation of American Scientists, earmarked for Secrecy News) may also be mailed to FAS Secrecy News, 1717 K Street NW, Suite 209, Washington, DC 20036. SENATE MOVES INTO RARE CLOSED SESSION In an extraordinary procedural maneuver that exposed partisan tensions over intelligence oversight, Senate Democrats forced the Senate into a rare closed session for more than two hours until they won agreement from the majority to get a progress report on the status of the Senate Intelligence Committee's long-deferred review of pre-war intelligence on Iraq. The Senate floor debate preceding and following the closed session featured unusually blunt statements on the quality of intelligence oversight of a sort not usually voiced in official proceedings. Sen. Jay Rockefeller, Vice Chair of the Intelligence Committee, said the Bush White House had orchestrated a deliberate evasion of oversight responsibilities by the Republican majority. "It is apparent to me that the White House has sent down the edict to the majority... that the Congress is not to carry out its oversight responsibilities in detention, interrogation, and rendition matters, ... as it would bring uncomfortable attention to the legal decisions and opinions coming from the White House and the Justice Department in the operation of various programs," Sen. Rockefeller said. "We have agreed to do what we already agreed to do," replied Sen. Pat Roberts, the Intelligence Committee Chair, "that is, to complete as best we can phase II of the Intelligence Committee's review of prewar intelligence in reference to Iraq." A task force of six Senators will report by November 14 on the anticipated completion date of the Intelligence Committee review. See the full text of the November 1 Senate floor debate before and after the historic closed session here: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_cr/s110105.html "Since 1929, the Senate has held 53 secret sessions, generally for reasons of national security," according to a 2004 report on the subject by the Congressional Research Service, whose availability on the FAS web site was noted repeatedly on CNN during the course of the secret Senate session. See "Secret Sessions of Congress: A Brief Historical Overview," updated October 21, 2004: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RS20145.pdf A LEXICON OF SECRECY The very words by which official secrecy policy is formulated and carried out are often obscure to the outsider. They embody a latent knowledge of statute and regulation, policy and practice that cannot be inferred from the words themselves. An excellent new publication helps "the outsider," i.e. the ordinary citizen of the United States, to comprehend the vocabulary of government information policy, and to discover its genealogical roots in official documents. >From "access" and "accountability" to "Yankee White" and "Xn," author Susan Maret, an adjunct professor of library science at the University of Denver, provides a concise definition of terms as well as links to official sources. Dr. Maret's Lexicon is published for the first time on the FAS web site. See "On Their Own Terms: A Lexicon with an Emphasis on Information-Related Terms Produced by the U.S. Federal Government" by Susan Maret, Ph.D., November 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/library/maret.pdf AIR FORCE GLOSSARY Another notable contribution to the understanding of official government language is a newly updated glossary of Air Force terminology. "Airmen should be able to clearly articulate their thoughts, ideas, and commands to each other by using a common operational language," according to the glossary, which is published by the U.S. Air Force. Roger that. See "Air Force Glossary," Air Force Doctrine Document 1-2, 6 September 2005: http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/usaf/afdd1-2.pdf A MILITARY GUIDE TO TERRORISM IN THE TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY A comprehensive military textbook on terrorism has just been reissued by the U.S. Army. Based on open sources, the 280 page volume (with four large supplements), provides a synthetic account of the nature and history of terrorism, its operational characteristics, the threat it poses to U.S. military forces, and the future of terrorism. The publication was prepared "under the direction of the U.S. Army Training and Doctrine Command, Assistant Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence-Threats." A copy was obtained by Secrecy News. See "A Military Guide to Terrorism in the Twenty-First Century," version 3.0, 15 August 2005: http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/terrorism/index.html _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Re: The Term Mothership - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:49:58 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 11:44:59 -0500 Subject: Re: The Term Mothership - Clark >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 21:43:44 +0000 >Subject: Re: The Term Mothership >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:56:10 -0600 >>Subject: Re: The Term Mothership Hi, John, >>As Greg Sandow has remarked (and as John has remained tactfully >>silent in response to), empirical demonstration of psychosocial >>speculations is virtually never a part of the pelicanist >>argument. As I have had occasion to remark on a few occasions >>in the past, this is literary criticism, not science. No wonder >>the wheels of psychosocial ufology continue to spin year after >>year without ever getting anything but polemical traction, and >>barely even that. >And the wheels of neo-ETH ufology have got us precisely where? I'm glad to see that you don't dispute my characterization of psychosocial ufology. I'm not sure what you mean by "neo-ETH ufology." Ordinary ufology is less theory-driven than its psychosocial counterpart; thus "neo-ETH ufology" doesn't seem more than a polemical concept. Well, it does characterize a lot of 1950s ufology, actually, which did have a heavy focus on interplanetary (specifically Martian) visitation. Since you don't seem to be discussing history, however, I guess that's beside the point you're apparently trying to make. As I wrote in "Extraterrestrial Hypothesis and Ufology" (UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd ed., pp. 374-93), where I note the relatively small amount of serious discussion the ETH has received in the UFO literature, ufologists tend to focus on specifics, thus the pragmatic approach of investigation, documentation, and analysis over the sort of theory, abstraction, and sweeping commentary that dominate the pages of, say, Magonia. In that regard, there has indeed been progress, as any reader can determine for him- or herself by turning to Keyhoe's The Flying Saucers Are Real (1950), followed up immediately by Richard Hall's essential The UFO Evidence II (2001). We do know far more about the phenomenon's contours, patterns, and quirks than we did when we started. As for science, which - as ufology manifestly does not - has the resources to uncover (over time, not likely two days into the initiation of inquiry) The Answer, it needs to pick up where the Condon Committee left off. Unfortunately, as far as I can see, that is unlikely to happen in my or your lifetime. Until that happens, ufology's progress will continue incrementally. And now, a question for you: Why have you yet to respond to the following post or even to acknowledge its existence?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Re: Gill Sighting - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 09:30:12 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 12:47:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Gill Sighting - Rudiak >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:45:32 -0000 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:06:13 -0800 >>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 23:09:20 +0100 >>>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:19:51 -0700 >>>>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>>>I also took a gander at Keyhoe's popular 1953 book, "Flying >>>>Saucers from Outer Space," which actually has an index. Again, >>>>no "motherships." >>>Have a look at Keyhoe's account of the December 6, 1952 Gulf of >>>Mexico radar-visual case (in chapter IX). He refers to >>>"mothership" at least three times.... >>Well for once Christopher Allen is right and I stand corrected. >Thanks for your admission. But why only "for once"? Isn't it >possible I might have been right twice or more?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Re: Gill Sighting - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:21:12 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 12:48:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Gill Sighting - Rudiak >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 18:54:38 +0000 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:06:13 -0800 >>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >The significant phrase above is "mainstream newspapers in the >U.S." I do not have any psychic abilities, but what evidence, >psychic or otherwise, do you have that Gill read American >newspapers, more specifically those which happen to be indexed >in the search engines you have access to? >As Peter Rogerson has pointed out in another post, popular >UFO imagery was widespread in Britain in the 1950s, perhaps more >so than in America, especially in the popular weekly newspapers >and magazines which are unlikely to be indexed. >Even if Gill had not read Adamski, and I see no reason to doubt >that, this does not mean that he would have been hermetically >sealed from all UFO reports, articles and news items. Did I hear that right? For years John Rimmer has been insulting Americans as gullible UFO believers who started the whole UFO craze in 1947, whereas the British were supposedly more educated and sophisticated and didn't fall for the stuff like the Yanks did. Now when arguing the Gill case, the Americans were the sophisticates all along and it was the Brits that were the gullible UFO rubes. Rimmer's sudden change of heart seems to have been prompted by being mugged with the reality that the American mainstream press was barely using the term "mothership." Thus Father Gill's subconcious must have been contaminated by the British press instead: "...popular UFO imagery was widespread in Britain in the 1950s, perhaps more so than in America..." Some might criticize Rimmer for being inconsistent. Let's be more generous and just say that psychosocial Ufology is very
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Re: Passive Radar - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:53:22 -0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 12:52:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Passive Radar - Shough >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:52:23 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 20:32:06 +0100 >>Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 10:36:11 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >>>Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>Please feel free to talk in percentages. James Just to remind ourselves what we are talking about: Your optical proposals aside (valuable in their own right I'm sure), you asserted that the existing evidence indicates that if there are interesting unknowns they probably represent a "radar transparent technology" because visual reports are very rarely corroborated by active radar. You opined that passive radar had no clear advantage over active and some disadvantages. From these premises you then concluded that radar in general, and a passive radar array in particular, is not likely to be very effective in getting info about interesting unknowns. In my opinion there are a few arbitrary assumptions and circularities in there that need to be unpicked. >Again, I am basing it only on the reading cases (randomly >selected at that!). UFO reports in which people call radar >towers to figure out what the thing is and are told it is an >airplane... these I am not including in the dataset mainly >because I doubt such cases ever are reported since they are >"explained". How many people go back to the radar records (which >are likely dumped after a short period of time) using FOIA and >correlate a UFO sighting with the radar data? Very few (<1%). Obviously we never were interested in conventional aircraft identified straight off the radar screen. >I am talking only about UFO cases - quite - >in which the UFO remains >unexplained - by whom? - after the report is published - by whom? - >and, in the >description of the report, "someone" calls the tower to ask if >anything is on radar. What confidence can I have that this "dataset" of unidentified stories you have read in unidentified places represents a population of well-reported and well-investigated visual Unknowns from which we can infer anything reliably about the radar-visibility of TRUFOs near airports? >I would suspect that >95% of the radar >operators say nothing is on radar to explain the UFO sighting >AND nothing is even on the radar. Then we need proportionately better reason, in general, to include these incidents in our dataset. How do I know that your sources are not newpaper stories and paperback pot-boilers full of the various assorted balloons, stars, kites, birds, ground lights, meteors and what have you that make up the bulk of raw reports? Just because a story gets published and "somebody" says it can't be explained doesn't make it so. Why should I be _surprised_ that "95%" of your cases lack radar corroboration? >I think if there were co-incidental unexplained radar contact this >would be a VERY big deal and really be headline news. Instead, >we "always" get the "nothing shows up on radar" story. Not if we read the right sources, we don't. You appear to be looking at newspaper headlines. You should be looking at sources like Blue Book. I can't argue with your "always" and "95%" very effectively because, although you said you wanted to talk in percentages and not absolutes you don't quantify "always" and 95% of an unidentified population of unstated size is meangless. If you'd combed through Brad Sparks' catalogue of BB Unknowns, for example, and claimed an excess of anomalous radar "failures" therein, then we could have something to talk about. Even if we were to grant (for the sake if argument) that your unspecified population of reports is thoroughly filtered and only includes well-reported and well-investigated cases, we would have to exclude other reasons why radar confirmation may not be forthcoming from local airports before we get to speculations about "radar transparent UFO technology". >I did qualify this in that we do not know if "nothing" really >did show up on radar. Also, I agreed active radars are not >perfect so it might miss something based on coverage, weather >and other reasons. Yes. >My whole point is that radar _may_ not be the panacea everyone >wants it to be regarding UFOs. It certainly should not be the >reason people _don't_ try other UFO field research tools because >they are "waiting" for passive or even active radar. True, it shouldn't be an excuse. But I don't know who wants radar to be a panacea. Working from the best evidence available to us there appear to be interesting phenomena in the atmosphere which are at least some of the time radar reflective. Some of the best evidence for these phenomena _is_already_ radar evidence. But we don't know enough because those relatively few fortuitous radarscreen incidents that we get to know about are remote from us and imperfectly reported even in the best cases. There's a place for optical tools as well as passive and active radar. But the potentia; advantages and accessibility of a passive radar array and the richness of cross-correlated doppler information it offers could, if we get lucky, dramatically increase what we know. And remember that any result is a result, even a negative one. >>>The cases of where >>>there was an actual radar blip matching a TRUFO visual >>>sighting seem very small. >>Really? How small? How many cases are there? Which cases? What >>population are you starting from, and how have you arrived at >>this residue? >As I said above, <5% based on my gut feel of reading >reported cases. I will be happily corrected by >those wielding UFO databases. This is 5% of what seems to be an unfiltered set of raw stories you read where "someone" might have mentioned calling their local airport when they saw something. I've read those stories too. But we should expect most of these cases to be Knowns anyway. A meaningful radar failure rate would have to be argued from careful study of putative Unknowns where one has strong reasons for believing that a phenomenon was present which ought to have been detected, and this depends on numerous factors related not just to the phenomenon but to the radar type and function and operating/reporting issues. >>>Can we trust the airport responses? Who knows? >>>If you do trust them you end up with "mostly" stealth ET tech >>>(even given possible radar hardware/operational/conditions >>>problems). If you don't trust them, you have no data. >>I'm sorry, but this all seems like excuses not to undertake >>proper study of the data or the problem. >This whole thread began with my desire to have active and >current UFO field research going on using existing "cheap" tools >(e.g. automated computer imagery) and Sparks said passive radar >was the only way to go and that my recommendation was invalid. Bottom line is we "know" that UFOs are potentially both optical emitters and radar reflectors, but we also "know" that they may not be either of these all the time, and we know next to nothing about whether they are isotropic emitters/reflector, what ranges of RCS or luminance we have to deal with etc. So there's plenty of room for instrumentation at all wavelengths. All tools will have limits (optical triangulation of light sources limited essentially to nighttime for example) and would benefit from complimentary approaches. A network of computer-controlled cameras and the latest sophisticated image processing software might well capture amazing quantities of latent information, just like passive radar, but would it really be "cheap"? Both need investment of confidence, time, energy and money. I don't see that one excludes the other. <snip> >Also, obviously the historical UFO cases of optical >and radar confirmation should be used to show that it can >happen, but also we need to show why added radar (active or >passive) will make any difference when these past cases did not >change the world as we hope the passive radar would when tied to >optical data. I already discussed some specific possible advantages of a passive radar array in other posts. >>>It reminds me of "GhostHunters" where they have a very >>>expensive thermal imaging camera, but rarely get decent "ghost >>>images" from it. >>Since no work has even been planned yet isn't it a bit early to >>talk in ruefully amused tones about the failure rate of passive >>radar surveillance? >This was merely an example of investing most or alot of your >resources into a measuring device which has a low probability of >"catching" the phenomenon. The same thing occurs in the medical >world where we could go into the doctors office with a cold but >they could test you for every known disease. The same thing occurs with a computerised optical tracking network. >It would be nice to >know if you are _not_ infected by a rare disease and if the >testing device is cheap, a great screening tool, but since it is >likely to give a zero positive result on all the infections >(except a cold) and the cost is likely very high, it may not be >worth it to test everything. This may not be acceptable to the >few people whose lives are saved by finding a rare disease, but >in general it is the most practical approach. The answer to this problem (which militates against any investment in UFO studies, radar or optical) may lie in exploiting existing data - as we both agree - recovered as a side-benefit from more conventional research. >>>. . . RF has never been my strong suit. >>>It seems devilishly hard to use received weak signals. >>Er... ? What else is radar but a device to use received weak >>(incredibly weak!) signals? I don't understand you. >Comparatively speaking, an optical signal is very strong and an >active radar signal even though reflected off a distant object >is likely very strong since the active radar is generating a EMF >strong pulse. The passive radar commonly desires the relatively >weak continuous signal (compare to an active radar pulse) from a >signal source not designed to be good for passive radar. Also, >this weaker signal must go through and reflect off all sorts of >things as well as the UFO and then pass through more stuff >(weather) to the receiving antenna. It seems to me that passive >radar must use weaker signals unless the military has a clear >channel specifically tuned, calibrated modulated, strength >signal for its use. Again you imply that the passive use of signals-of-opportunity is impractical from basic radar principle. I repeat again, as Peter Davenport also emphasised: passive radar is tested real- world technology and has been researched/developed for a wide range of applications including air defence _using_ambient_communications_signals. Other types of multistatic passive and semi-passive systems also exist, some of which use dedicated emissions. Your point about the high power of pulse radar misses the mark. The significant issues are not the peak power in the pulse but the _average_ power and the _dwell time_ of the target in the beam. That is, the peak power in the pulse is high, yes, but averaged over time the actual power is very small. Typical ratios of prf to pulse width are in the order 100:1, because the pulse has to be short (for range resolution) and the transmitter has to be switched off for most of the time because the antenna is given over to listening. So averaged over the dwell-time in any one sweep the total energy on target will be only about 1/100 the emitted peak power. And because an active surveillance radar only samples a target once per rotation, the dwell time itself is only tiny - a point target is inside a 2 degree beam with a 6-second scan rate for only about 0.03 second, so in this case we take the already diminished 1/100 average power and apply a _further_ factor 1/180 to get the average power incident on the target compared with the peak power. A passive radar using continuous signals does not incur this degradation - the average power in a continuous wave source _is_ the "peak" power - and (in the above example) the same receiver in a multistatic passive role can afford an incident signal 18,000 times as weak as the peak transmitter power for the same range performance when used in a monostatic active role. The power in ambient FM and TV signals and other sources is quite high enough. And then there are other factors which I also mentioned previously and won't drag up again except to emphasise the importance of the forward scatter region for passive radar compared with the typical backscatter in a monostatic active radar. Just about any target at all (howsoever stealthed and whatever its aspect) has a very large RCS by resonance in the forward scatter region, so even if it's hard to detect by traditional backscatter a passive array can pick it up. >>>If you have >>>a nice clear channel source, then it would be much less of a >>>problem. I am sure the military has some nice systems, but they >>>can afford their own signal generator (at their own desired >>>signal design, deployed whereever they want). >>I don't think you grasp the nature of the opportunistic passive >>radar systems that we've been talking about, the kind that have >>been widely studied for research _and_military_ applications. >>They don't use dedicated signal generators. They are _designed_ >>to use ambient "signals of opportunity" from commercial sources >>- generally FM radio or TV. Multistatic active radar is another >>ball-game. >Yes, I do. But just because the radar is called passive, does >not mean it only uses AM/FM stations. Er, but the ones that do, or can, are the ones we're talking about! Of course passive radar can exploit active radar signals if you want it to (different specialised applications, different limitations). The point is it can be parasitical on anything, including FM radio, TV, GPS, etc. >I read somewhere which I >can't find after some Googling, that the military satellite >tracking system uses passive radar with emitting stations around >the country. Maybe I misread it, but it seems possible. This is irrelevant, except to the extent that any emitted signal source (no matter who emits it or why) becomes another signal-of-opportunity for anybody else's passive radar array. >>>The interesting thing is that Davenport has gotten zero support >>>from deep pocketed folk and academic institutions have given >>>him the cold shoulder. Whether this is because of pressure due >>>to the government wanting this technology "limited" ... >>I really think this is a nonstarter. The principles, hardware and >>processing algorithms that we have talked about and referred to >>are all public domain and have been for many years. Peter has >>been trying to sell a project based on already-implemented >>"white" technology and open source research. Obviously there is >>classified work too but we don't have access to that and we >>aren't talking about it. >Yes, I know this. But explain the lack of interest. You can >easily find articles in the Internet about concerns of passive >radar making Stealth aircraft vunerable and hoopla about selling >such systems to certain nations. Maybe regular folk _can_ build >one, but the government isn't likely to make it easy or >desirable to support this. Since you accept that we are talking about open-source info on unclassified white technology which is already implemented for civilian research and commercial products, can you explain how "the government" is supposed to make it difficult and undesirable for billionaires to fund it? I just can't quite see this. Reasons for reluctance to fund Peter's proposals (not necessarily lack of interest as such) are not hard to imagine - it's not a safe subject, possible kudos but also tremendous risk. Rich people aren't necessarily idiots. You have to think of risk like an auditor - it's not just probability of failure, but probability of failure multiplied by impact of consequent damage to a personal or business reputation. Putting your name and cash behind a "saucer hunt" that's a bust might call in question your financial judgement in the eyes of future business associates. And unfortunately a proposal from Peter naturally offers far less "cover" and plausible deniability than would be the case if it were coming from a conservative accredited academic insitution. I suggest that the focus of any future pitch should be on working towards a parnership or access agreement with such academic researchers, freeing potential investors to calculate risk by the possibility of success multiplied by the impact of consequent benefits. <snip> >>>The cheapest way is to use academic data streams somehow >>Yes, as I said this might be done provided the pitch for access >>or partnership is sufficiently cunning and done through the most >>conservative of ufological channels. >Exactly. >>>(hopefully it has not been TOO filtered). >>Too filtered? More covert government censorship of academic data >>sets? Whilst I'm all for great caution, I have the feeling that >>you are looking around for problems to justify your initial >>disbelief in this technology. >No conspiracies, just technology. If the science automatically >filters out things they don't want to look for or need to look >for then we won't get data of any use. This is either based on >antenna design, hardware sensitivity, software design, storage, >etc. Its not because they saw a UFO and erased it based on >government requirements. They may just look at a meteor pattern >and erase other data to save storage space. I see what you mean. Yes that is all true. Hopefully if one could arrange participation in advance of the experiment or the operational deployment then these unwanted filters can be designed out or bypassed. >Again, I must state that I believe the technology works and can >be used in non-realtime mode to gather data. I just feel that it >is not the savior for Ufology and real field research can be >done right now without it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Volunteers Required For Sleep Paralysis Research From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:55:35 -0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:00:32 -0500 Subject: Volunteers Required For Sleep Paralysis Research Source: www.telegraph.co.uk/connected Why people believe in alien abductions (Filed: 01/11/2005) Roger Highfield invites you to help scientists understand the X Files phenomenon <snipped due to copyright notice, see below> {full article at http://tinyurl.com/c92qw ) If you have had sleep paralysis and would like to take part in research, contact Julia Santomauro (j.santomauro.nul). You can participate in another study by Prof Tore Nielsen and Liza Solomonova of the University of Montreal, and Dr Don Donderi of McGill University who are studying the links between dreams and emotional memories. Visit
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 1 Copy Body Snatchers In The Desert Uncorrected From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 13:06:36 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:02:08 -0500 Subject: 1 Copy Body Snatchers In The Desert Uncorrected Listerions, I still have one copy of Nick Redfern's 'Body Snatchers In The Desert' It is an autographed pre-publishing Uncorrected Proof version. After this there will be no more so get it while you can. It will be first come, first served The price is $12.50 USA and Canada and $16.50 all other countries. Prices include tax and shipping by snail-mail To order (PayPal only) visit http://terrygroff.com/dfwmufon/books/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Re: UpDates List Politics - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 00:59:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:07:12 -0500 Subject: Re: UpDates List Politics - Ledger >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 19:21:41 +0000 >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: UpDates List Politics >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:45:09 -0300 >>Subject: Re: UpDates List Politics [was: Zamora's Eyeglasses] <snip> >>Once again we are back into debating mode. I believe the point I >>was making was about the Zamora case, not all of them. After all >>that's the subject heading of this thread. I would not classify >>myself as an eager believer, so for a change, you are right. >I wonder why you are so opposed to the idea of debating? I thought this was one of the main functions of this List. Thirty four years of listening to it in a Legislature-first 18 as a Hansard recordist and the last 16 as the Director for Legislative TV. In most repsects I found little to recommend it. Some of the best debating points were made by the opposition members who lost in the long run to the government's superior seat numbers and votes. Obviously in this case the best does not win but where a vote is not required the best debator wins over the audience. I referred to the courts where closing arguments often sway the the jury in the face of the facts. >>>I suggest you go back in the archives and read my previous >>>posts. On second thoughts, no, there are just too many of them, >>>and packed full of opinions (and sometimes even facts). Ah, facts. We all offer opinions, but those should be supported by common sense. Often we see just vague speculation that just mudies the water rather than knocking down the merits of the case or further illuminating it. >>I have read your stuff, but you have a penchant for debunking >>cases that many of us don't take seriously to begin with. There >>is much to read and so little time. I applaud you for offering up >>facts, however. >How interesting. I wonder what the cases are that "many of us don't take seriously"? I think the case I have discussed most on this List, and the one I have spent most time in learning about, is Trindade. Is this one of the ones you mean? No. I have no opinion one way or the other on this case. This is my first reading of your comment on this thread re my remarks so I'll have to go checking your online Magazine for those vetted therein that I would not have given any credit as a sound case in the first place. Sorry, I've had company for the last three days >>>>You seem satisfied with just assigning degeneratory motive >>>>to anyone not readily supportive of ridiculous conjecture or >>>>theories. >>>>Debate seems a useless tool when trying to get at the truth >>>>of this phenomenon. Obviously the best debater would win, >>>>but that's not the point. Winning an argument is a poor >>>>substitute for proof if the facts suffer in the process. >>>>Debate is the purview of courts and legislatures who often >>>>get it wrong. >I still cannot understand what you mean by this. Do you deny that debate is a very valuable tool for arriving at the truth? The best debater can only win if they also have the facts and evidence behind them. I do not see that there is any contradiction between winning the argument and presenting the facts. I don't agree that debate is the sole prerogative of courts and legislatures. In fact I think that the times when they get it wrong are mostly the times when true debate is curtailed. The greatest degree of debate, I would suggest, does take place in these two venues. Universities engage in debating but is limited to a very low percentage as compared to parliament [in our case ranging from about 35 -168 hours per week, depending on the stage of the sitting of the legislature and the will of the government to ram through a bill or budget. I'm not suggesting that debate is useless but that it has a low degree of priority in the investigative method. >>>>The "eager believer" comment is an attempt to win points by >>>>derision and thereby hopefully weaken a case and enhance >>>>your own position, not through the presentation of facts but >>>>by ridiculing of the presenter of the facts. It's an old >>>>ploy but it simply amounts to tripe. >No, the 'eager believer' comment was a response to a silly comment intended to denigrate those of us who actually want to dig a little deeper than facile assumptions - and I'm sure that includes you. Can't argue there. >>Lately I've noted your attempts to be more reasonable in your >>arguments and questions-the latter not as loaded with sarcasm. I >>don't expect you to blindly see my side, or acquiesce to my >>paradigm, that would be foolish and and in the broader sense >>across the field of the phenomenon, dangerous. I don't think >>anyone wants that, at least I don't. >I regard sarcasm as a tool, to be used when required, but not otherwise. Yeah, but that wears thin, as does the penchant for some to play devil's advocate. >>Debating dictates that both sides take opposite sides of the >>question, one side of which is wrong. I just wonder why you
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Shadowing Jimmy Carter's UFO Legacy From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 02:20:11 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:20:35 -0500 Subject: Shadowing Jimmy Carter's UFO Legacy Shadowing Jimmy Carter's UFO Legacy By Larry W. Bryant After appearing Nov. 2, 2005, on the NBC-TV morning show "Today" (in which he declared that the Bushites' WMD-intelligence claims leading up to Iraqnam were "manipulated, at least" to keep the public off guard), former-President Jimmy Carter journeyed over to Aisle No. 131 of the Cosco discount store in Arlington, Va., just several hundred yards from the Pentagon. There, he set about autographing, for a line of hundreds of Carter-book lovers, his latest tome - titled Our Endangered Values: America's Moral Crisis, a hard-back item bargain-priced at $14.95 (which, coincidentally, happens to be the price of my own book - UFO Politics At The White House: Citizens Rally 'round Jimmy Carter's Promise - published last year in an expanded edition by Galde Press, Inc.). You had to have been there to appreciate the setting. I did attend. And I knew I was headed for trouble the minute I got instructions from a clerk at the store's entrance: "If you're here for Carter's book-signing, go to Aisle 131." And: "Is that a book in that bag, Sir?" Upon my saying "yes," she advised that Uncle Jimmy is forbidden to sign any of his books not purchased from her store. Whereupon, I explained that the book happens to be one of my own compositions. She waved me on. Of course, I was intent on having Carter sign _my_ book (while offering him an extra copy of it as a keepsake). As the line of hopeful signature recipients snaked along through one aisle after another, I was getting the distinct impression that my objective might get deterred by all the oppressive gate-keeping thereabouts. An especially eager clerk was working the crowd at one corner to instruct us as to precisely which page we should select for His Highness's signature. Then, as I arrived within 25 feet of Carter's bunker in Aisle 131, I got a full view of his entourage of bodyguards and other Cosco-ordained gate-keepers, one of whom demanded to know where my copy of the Carter book was. I showed her _my_ book, explaining that I was here to get his signature on _that_. She semi-shrugged and allowed me to hold my position in line. When I neared Jimmy's table (which was set so far from the line that no-one could readily reach out to shake his hand, much less ask him a question or two), one of the young women assigned there took my book and, upon seeing that it wasn't Carter's, returned it to me, declaring that "you can get only _his_ book signed." When Carter heard that, he responded: "I'll sign it." As he proceeded to do so, I handed him the other copy, asking if he'd ever seen it. He shook his head "no," and I then added, "Please keep that copy, Sir." He quickly shoved that copy beneath the cloth-draped table - as if the thing might bite him and not let go. Signature in hand, I quickly made my way back to fresh air. A few observations: (1) All the gate-keeping made it seem as if Jimmy's book could create a riot if not shielded by a curtain of security. Someone there had forgotten that this place was COSCO, not Colombia. (2) This shielding of the former president from his constituency (some of whom were bearing multiple copies of his book) diminishes both him and them. (3) I lament my failure to acquire enough space-and-time to pose one simple question to the gentleman from Georgia: "Do you plan to write a book about your UFO-policymaking days, Sir?" (4) This reverse-book-signing event offers lots of irony - e.g.: when the original edition of the book (via the Invisible College Press) appeared, I parceled out a few free copies, one of which I snail-mailed to Plains, Ga., ATTN: Jimmy Carter. I never heard from him direct, but a few weeks later, in early 2002, I received a form-styled postcard from the Carter
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Mack On Iraq Terrorism & Unusual Phenomena From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:46:28 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:46:28 -0500 Subject: Mack On Iraq Terrorism & Unusual Phenomena Source: American Chronicle - Beverly Hills, California, USA http://tinyurl.com/dndam November 2, 2005 With Knowledge Of Iraq, Terrorism And Unusual Phenomena, John Mack, M.D., Speaks To Us Now By Steve Hammons John E. Mack, M.D., was a Pulitzer Prize-winning author, Harvard Medical School professor, psychiatrist and contributed to the understanding of the Iraq region, terrorism and unconventional phenomena. Mack died Monday, Sept. 27, 2004, in London after being struck by a motorist. His contributions to a wide range of discussions and topics are worth revisiting. His background includes experience and expertise in psychiatry, human behavior, social dynamics, terrorism, unconventional phenomena and Iraq and the surrounding region�s history. For those interested in these topics, one good place to start is the John E. Mack Institute Web site at: http://johnemackinstitute.org/ The Web site is rich in resources about topics that Mack was involved in. The Web in general is rich with information about his research. Lawrence Of Arabia And The Iraq War When he was killed, Mack was in London attending and speaking at a conference about T.E. Lawrence, Lawrence Of Arabia. Lawrence was the topic of the book that won Mack the Pulitzer Prize for biography in 1977, A Prince of Our Disorder: The Life of T.E. Lawrence. As a student of Lawrence, Mack was familiar with Iraq and the era of British colonialism in that region of the world. Lessons Mack learned from his studies of Lawrence, that era and region may be valuable for us today. Mack also closely followed the Iraq war and wrote about it. When the Iraq war started, he wrote several essays on the subject, some published in newspapers. Mack had grave misgivings about the U.S. invasion of Iraq. And, from his research and knowledge of the days of British colonialism in that region, he had good reasons to be concerned. An observer of human societies, including American society, Mack wondered aloud about the reasons for the Iraq war and about the outcomes. The Psychology Of Terrorism After the 9/11 attacks, Mack contributed to the four-volume study The Psychology of Terrorism, applying his knowledge and experience in psychiatry and human behavior. Those interested in terrorism, intelligence and psychological operations (PSYOP) might find this collection a very valuable piece of open source intelligence (OSINT) in our fight against global terrorism. Efforts at global public diplomacy might also benefit from the views and information contained in The Psychology of Terrorism. Also contributing to this published work were many respected scholars, academics and clinicians from around the world. They joined together to contribute to this collection edited by Chris E. Stout. Stout was previously an advisor to the White House and representative to the United Nations. The Psychology of Terrorism provides information, intelligence, knowledge and understanding for those working to develop effective ways to respond to terrorism. The contributors, including Mack, explored a wide range of terror-related elements and factors including historic contexts, group dynamics, social, psychological, behavioral, forensic, psychopathological and evolutionary issues. Global viewpoints on bias, prejudice, racism and hate are also presented. Additional topics covered: Comparing terrorists and cultists, beliefs about bioterrorism, state terrorism, countering international terrorism using perspectives from international psychology and on the role of resilience in terror's aftermath. Among the contributors are current and past officers of the American Psychological Association, World Psychiatric Association, World Federation for Mental Health, Psychologists for Social Responsibility, American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law, and the Middle East Psychological Network. Authors include scholars from Harvard University, Mount Sinai School of Medicine and the Disaster Mental Health Institute, as well as National University of Colombia, Comprehensive Medical Center in Dubai, United Arab Emirates, and the Maagalim Institute of Psychotherapy and Counseling in Tel-Aviv. Reports Of UFO Abductions Mack was widely known for his study of persons who claimed to have been abducted by "aliens" and UFOs. Although he came to no firm conclusions about these claims, he did assert that these people did not seem to suffer from clinical mental disorders that would cause them to imagine or lie about these kinds of reports. He seemed to suspect that there was some kind of truth to these people�s experiences. As a respected Harvard psychiatry professor when he became interested in UFO abduction reports, he was subjected to disrespect by some professional peers. The topic of the existence of UFOs, let alone abduction of humans by "visitors," has scared away many researchers who feared they would be ridiculed. Mack conducted clinical psychiatric interviews with many persons who claimed to have been abducted and taken aboard apparent spacecraft. He found that most of these people were normal and did not suffer from hallucinations, delusions or other psychiatric problems of this kind. His books on the topic of so-called alien abduction reports and these are widely read and widely available, including "Passport to the Cosmos: Human Transformation and Alien Encounters" and "Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens." Dr. Mack�S Passing Mack might want his passing to trigger new efforts at understanding the human mind and human condition. That the Iraq war is continuing, with the many difficulties and casualties involved, would probably trouble him. But he might not be surprised about these outcomes. His writings and warnings early on in the Iraq war told us of the problems involved. That terrorism continues to be a threat probably would not surprise him either. From his involvement in the international collaboration in The Psychology of Terrorism, he knew it was an extremely complex situation that would not be easily or quickly resolved. And of UFO and abduction reports, he might wonder what this strange phenomena means. He might be curious about when and how more light will be shed on this mystery. From his current desk, he might even be in a position himself to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Where Have All the Martians Gone? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:51:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:51:25 -0500 Subject: Where Have All the Martians Gone? Source: Los Angeles City Beat- Los Angeles, California, USA http://www.lacitybeat.com/article.php?id=3D2829&IssueNum=3D126 11-02-05 Where Have All the Martians Gone? What the world needs now is an alien revival By Mick Farren "Intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic regarded this earth with envious eyes and slowly and surely drew their plans against us." =96H.G. Wells hat the disappearance of the aliens should occur almost concurrently with the inauguration of George W. Bush may be pure coincidence. Or perhaps the ETs, seeing the shape of things to come, simply fired up their saucers and split. A third explanation might be that, in this new American century, the public mood changed. We now have Al Qaeda, bird flu, and the surface temperature of the Atlantic to worry about, and, with Dick Cheney as VP, who needs conspiracy scenarios about little gray bald guys from Zeta Reticuli? Not that the aliens vanished without trace. The History and Discovery channels still have their UFO shows, and black triangles still buzz the highways of Belgium, but, all in all, the alien business isn=92t what it was in the halcyon days of Bill Clinton. Back in the roaring =9290s, you couldn=92t walk into a 7- Eleven without finding luminous green candy containers shaped like extraterrestrials. The X-Files =96 along with The Simpsons =96 turned Fox into a real TV network. Roswell, New Mexico, parlayed a supposed interplanetary mishap into a thriving tourist industry. And the Lil=92 Ale Inn =96 out on Route 375 by Rachel, Nevada =96 sold beer and shots to the crowds who wanted to know what the aliens and the Pentagon were scheming up inside Area 51. A entire ET intervention chronology was assembled, from prehistoric genetic manipulation to the sellout of humanity at a secret 1954 night meeting between Dwight Eisenhower and off- world "Nordics." It all seemed too good merely to return to the twilight web-culture of extreme paranoids. Evidence suggests, however, that sections of showbiz hoped to see a 2005 alien renaissance triggered by Steven Spielberg=92s War of the Worlds. Maybe it=92s again coincidence that CBS readied the alien intrusion show Threshold, and NBC unveiled Surface, featuring weird sci-fi thingies from the ocean depths, but a coattail from a Spielberg hit wouldn=92t have hurt either series. And any gambler would have backed WOTW to the hilt to succeed. In previous incarnations, War of the Worlds has regularly provoked reaction. The original 1897 H.G. Wells serialization in Pearson=92s magazine put Wells on the literary map, and touched a societal nerve, at a time when the British Empire was uneasy about who really ruled the waves. The Orson Welles CBS radio production for Halloween 1938 threw the U.S. into mass hysteria. In less well known incidents, a 1944 replication of Welles=92s prank in Chile caused widespread panic, and, in 1949, a radio station in Ecuador was burned to the ground after doing the same thing. Minor scares occurred after local radio adaptations in Buffalo, New York, in 1968, and in Providence, Rhode Island, in 1974. The original 1953 movie version created no hysteria but did make producer George Pal a special-effects legend. Unfortunately, the new WOTW =96 despite Dakota Fanning and a $100- million-plus budget =96 also lacked visible attendant hysteria, save that of Tom Cruise, and, although his behavior was extreme, even for a Scientologist, it couldn=92t make the 2005 remake a legend. Okay, so it=92s grossed $234 million to date, but that=92s chump change in the ET /Star Wars league, and the film did nothing for any alien revival, or those who hoped for peripheral profit. Among the disappointed has to be Sourcebooks Inc., which refurbished its excellent The War of the Worlds: Mars=92 Invasion of Earth, Inciting Panic and Inspiring Terror from H.G. Wells to Orson Welles and Beyond for a movie-driven readership. Containing both the complete Wells novel and the Howard Koch script of the Welles broadcast, bios of both Wells and Welles, a concise history of human fascination for the Red Planet, essays by Ben Bova and Ray Bradbury, and a CD of the CBS radio show plus related interviews, this cool WOTW companion surely proves that, for the dedicated enthusiast, no cloud =96 even of black Martian death gas =96 comes without a silver lining. Watch: Mars was at its closest proximity to Earth last weekend
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Abduction Reports Are Rising On TV From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:56:07 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 16:56:07 -0500 Subject: Abduction Reports Are Rising On TV Source: Lexington Herald Leader - Lexington, Kentucky, USA http://tinyurl.com/8t9kf Nov. 03, 2005 Alien Abduction Reports Are Rising =97 As Seen On TV By Amy Wilson Herald-leader Staff Writer A few quick questions: Have you seen beams of light come into your room through a window? Have you ever woken up startled? Do you have chronic sinusitis? Do you have to sleep against a wall? Ever been afraid of your closet? Have ringing in your ears? A fear of doctors? Had the feeling you were going crazy? Are you aware of the cosmos, interested in ecology, the environment, vegetarianism? Did you answer "yes" to one or more? The good news is, welcome to the club. The bad news is, according to a study conducted in 2002 by the Roper Center for Public Opinion, these are a few of 58 positive indicators that you might be one of the 3.7 million Americans who say they have been abducted by aliens. Even better news? There's about to be a bunch more of you. It seems that you can Google "alien abduction," read big books, do extensive research and still come up with one conclusion: The more TV you watch, the more knowledge you have of the appearance and behavior of abducting aliens. And the more knowledge you have, the more likely you are to be abducted. Or think you've been abducted. Or are willing to try to convince the rest of us that you've been abducted, experimented on, had your eyes pulled out, your private parts probed and your nose implanted with some kind of thing that only the aliens can find on careful review. So with the loyal sci-fi audience success of the new alien- themed dramas Threshold on CBS and Invasion on ABC - last week, they netted 6 million and 3 million viewers, respectively - the aliens might be coming soon to a back road, bedroom or bus station near you. Ever since 1966, when Betty and Barney Hill first went public with a tale of aliens sampling their DNA, there has been a virtual epidemic of alien takings. The abduction of the Hills made big news at the time. In 1961, the couple had reported only seeing bright lights. But in 1966, when they went to a hypnotist, Betty revealed her brave endurance of a painful nose probe and, as if that weren't enough, she gave researchers a star map she'd glimpsed while aboard the ship. Barney was a little less specific under hypnosis. So the practitioners asked him to draw a picture of his abductors. He did: big bald head, little slanty black eyes, no mouth, skinny. Today, it's a kind of prototype of creatures known by alien experts as "grays." Thing is, Barney's description was exactly what the aliens had looked like on an episode of The Outer Limits. That episode, "The Bellaro Shield," had aired a little more than a week before Barney drew his picture. Many believers According to the Roper poll - which, it should be noted, was conducted for the Sci-Fi Channel - "two-thirds of Americans say they think there are other forms of intelligent life in the universe, and nearly half say they think UFOs have visited the earth in some form or that aliens have monitored life on earth. In fact, more than one in three believed that humans have interacted with extraterrestrial life forms." As to alien kidnappings and probings, "one in five Americans say that abductions have taken place." And among those who believe in abductions, one-third claim to have experienced, or know someone who has experienced, a close encounter. Elizabeth Loftus, the much-acclaimed psychologist at the University of California-Irvine who successfully debunked the theory of repressed memory, said television "gives visual plausibility to an abduction explanation" for any number of things - nightmares, moles on our skin, loneliness, sexual abnormalities. People simply want to understand why they are experiencing some abnormal, frightening or confusing things. In the 1980s, those same symptoms were typically explained away as "suddenly remembered sexual abuse," she said. It depended, she said, on which kind of therapist was consulted. "If you were steered to a satanic therapist, it was Satan doing it," she said. "If you went to an alien-abductionist therapist, it was the aliens. If you went to a therapist who believed everything stemmed from forgotten child or sexual abuse, bingo, that was it." Loftus, who has served as an expert witness on many such cases, has proved in the laboratory that such memories can be implanted. The problem in those cases, she says, is that there is no evidence that any of that - the alien abduction, the sexual abuse, the satanic visitation - ever occurred. (No doubt, she said, tragic and horrible sexual abuse does occur, but rather than being repressed, it is vividly remembered. The kind that needs to be "suggested" to a patient is something else altogether.) Susan Clancy, a psychologist at Harvard University, agreed. In her just-published book, Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped by Aliens, Clancy postulates that increased claims of abduction are "false memories," which are not the same as lies. They are created explanations, maybe even a part "of a larger spiritual quest," she said. "They're looking for answers to something bigger. They are looking for a meaning they don't get from science." And where do they get the palette? In the 1950s and '60s, Clancy said, aliens were represented in movies as robots or serpents, but the Outer Limits-Barney Hill drawing won the day. That's who people see. That's who they expect to see. "Today," Clancy said, "my 2-year-old, who can't tell you the difference between a dog and a cat, can pick out the right alien. TV taught her that." Eerie coincidences So where does this leave the famous Stanford, Ky., abduction case - which many believers cite as the one that can't be explained away - nearly 30 years after its original telling? On Jan. 6, 1976, Mona Stafford, Louise Smith and Elaine Thomas, three ordinary rural Kentucky women, reported that they had been driving on U.S. 27, 35 miles from Liberty, their hometown, when their car came under the control of outside forces, they said. A glowing laserlike beam sucked them off the road. Then things kind of went blank. When the women came to, they said, they found themselves in the car - but all were missing about 90 minutes of their memories. They called the police the next day. Their story was in all the papers. Polygraphed, they were unshakable. Coincidentally, The UFO Incident, an NBC-TV movie starring James Earl Jones as Barney Hill and Estelle Parsons as Betty, was first shown Oct. 20, 1975, just 10 weeks before the eerie episode on U.S. 27. In fact, the number of reported UFO abductions after that television movie aired simply mushroomed. Also, the National Enquirer tabloid had offered a cash prize of $100,000 for definitive proof of extraterrestrial life, but in 1976, the year of the U.S. 27 incident, the prize was bumped to $1 million. In the decade before 1975, there had been 50 abduction-type reports - about five a year. From 1976 to 1978, the rate was about 50 a year. Still, the Kentucky case remained famous because the women - two are now dead and one moved west, where she could talk about the experience and not be ridiculed, she said - stuck to their story. The academic who hypnotized them and the Lexington police lieutenant who polygraphed the trio are both dead. The Mutual UFO Network investigator who interviewed them is likewise unreachable. Abduction reports tend to come in waves, almost as if they are the fashion. Why? Because socially, the experience has no downside. Unlike people who are sexually abused or who are victims of satanic rituals, alien abductees tend to be proud and talkative about the experiences. It makes them special. It has done something else, Harvard's Clancy said. Three good decades of TV and movies have made aliens less scary than, say, terrorists. So we embrace them, especially now. ABC and NBC, the networks behind Invasion and Threshold, are counting on it. Have you been abducted? To view the list of 58 positive indicators for alien abduction, go to: http://groups.msn.com/ProjectUFO-AbductionSupportCenter/abductionsigns2.msnw
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Starry Fight From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:09:36 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:09:36 -0500 Subject: Starry Fight Source: Miami New Times - Miami, Florida, USA http://www.miaminewtimes.com/Issues/2005-11-03/news/metro5.html Thursday, November 3, 2005 Starry Fight Oh heavens! A brilliant Cuban exile takes top billing in the intelligent design debate By Mariah Blake Guillermo Gonzalez was a science whiz, the kind of kid classmates eye with awe =97 or scorn =97 as they fumble with their beakers in chemistry class. While a senior at Hialeah-Miami Lakes High, he interned at Cordis Laboratories, where he helped build a device that measures temperature in pacemakers. And he made it to the finals of Westinghouse, the mother of all student science competitions, with a contraption that measured how ice and water conduct electricity. But his true passion was for the stars. While other boys played baseball and chased girls, he was reading astronomy books and viewing distant planets from the back yard of his Hialeah home. And it wasn't just comets Gonzalez glimpsed through the lens of his 200-pound telescope. "It was as if, by discovering the universe, I was discovering something about God," he recalls. Gonzalez's whiz-kid days are now behind him; he is 41 years old and teaches astronomy at Iowa State University. But his life has continued to follow the twin tracks of faith and science. A year ago, those tracks collided in a book called The Privileged Planet: How Our Place in the Cosmos Is Designed for Discovery. In it he argues that a supreme being designed our planet to support both human life and scientific inquiry. While it has received scant attention in his hometown, the book =97 and a documentary based on it =97 has made national headlines and earned Gonzalez one of thirteen senior research fellow spots at the Discovery Institute, the brain center of the intelligent design movement, which argues that Darwin got it wrong. Life is too complex to be an evolutionary fluke. Gonzalez has expanded the debate out into the cosmos. And his ideas have stirred a controversy that has embroiled the nation's pre-eminent scientific institution and major research universities. The conflict is part of a nationwide struggle over intelligent design that is playing out most visibly before a Pennsylvania judge and may eventually reach the Supreme Court. The stakes are high. Advocates say intelligent design is science and deserves a spot in our public-school classrooms. Opponents =97 among them most scientists =97 disagree. "They're using semantics and half-truths to paper a wall," says James Randi, a renowned Fort Lauderdale skeptic and one of Gonzalez's most vocal critics. "But it's only cardboard under that paper. Don't lean on it. Intelligent design is not science, it's theology." Guillermo Gonzalez was only four years old when his family fled Cuba in 1967. The Castro regime had confiscated all of their belongings, so they stepped off the plane in Miami with only the clothes they were wearing. When the clan settled in Opa-locka, it was the early days of space travel and, like many boys his age, Gonzalez became obsessed with the Apollo missions. One of his earliest memories is watching the night launches from his front yard. "The rocket plume was so bright," he recalls, "you could see it hundreds of miles away." At age seven, Gonzalez received his first telescope as a Christmas present. Not long after that, he and his family moved to the modest home in Hialeah where his mother and sister live to this day. The low-slung building, with its russet trim and a Saltillo-tiled porch, sits on a large corner lot, surrounded by juniper, bougainvillea, and ferns. Gonzalez dissected lizards and frogs in the back yard and fished water from a nearby canal so he could inspect protozoa and algae under a microscope. But outer space remained his first love. In his early teens, he saw an eight-inch Newtonian refractor telescope advertised in the Miami Herald and bought it for $350. Then he and his father, an auto mechanic, built an observatory in the back yard using wood scraps they scavenged from local warehouses. It was a boxy frame structure with particle board walls, musty carpeting, and a rollaway metal roof. The telescope sat perched on a concrete pedestal in the middle of the room. Neighbors remember Gonzalez as a quiet, studious boy. "You hardly knew he was over there," recalls Edith Vargas, who lives next door. "All day he studied like crazy. And he spent his nights staring up at the sky." When he made his presence known, it was by asking Vargas to switch off the lights in her house so he could get a better view of the stars. Gonzalez was never spoon-fed faith. His parents, while nominally Catholic, rarely attended church. But from the beginning there was a spiritual dimension to his interest in space. "I just had this intuitive sense that there was something behind the universe," he explains. While a student at Hialeah-Miami Lakes, he recalls, he began exploring evangelical Christianity and going to Bible studies organized by one of his teachers. He later began attending a nondenominational evangelical church. In 1983 Gonzalez graduated from high school and moved to Tucson to attend the University of Arizona. It was the first time he had ever left Florida. "Going away was a big deal," he says. "But the University of Miami didn't have an astronomy program, and Tucson is the astronomy capital of the world." Besides, U. of A. had offered a four-year full-tuition scholarship. Gonzalez went on to earn a Ph.D. in astronomy at the University of Washington in Seattle. Then, in 1995, he traveled to Asia to do postdoctoral research at the Indian Institute of Astrophysics in Bangalore. There he had an encounter that lasted less than a minute but shaped the course of his career. It began with a train trip to an impoverished village called Neem Ka Thana, in India's northern desert. The morning after his arrival, he and a team of other scientists set up their equipment in the grassy playground of a local school. It was a clear, crisp day. And just after 9:00 a.m., the sun began slinking behind the moon. For a moment its rays shimmered like a cut diamond. Then, for 51 seconds, it disappeared except for a glowing corona. The temperature dropped 21 degrees and distant planets blazed into view. This was the first and only total solar eclipse Gonzalez had seen, and it dazzled him. Afterward, he recalls, he began to consider that many of the same factors allowing intelligent life to flourish on Earth =97 among them the large size of our moon and our distance from the sun =97 also made these rare astrological events possible. At the same time, he began thinking about the breakthroughs scientists had made by viewing eclipses =97 which include discovery of the element helium and confirmation of Albert Einstein's theory of general relativity. "You can call [all of this] a coincidence," he explains. "But I went further and said, 'Well, what if it's not a coincidence?'" These musings would evolve into The Privileged Planet, the book that would land Gonzalez on the culture war's front lines. The year after his India trip, Gonzalez heard about a conference that would bring together a fledgling coalition of scientists and academics who believed life bore the thumbprint of a Creator with a capital C. He decided to attend the event, called Mere Creation, at Biola University in Los Angeles in October 1996. The gathering came at a key moment. A six-year-old Seattle-based organization called the Discovery Institute had just launched its Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture to support researchers and academics looking for evidence of Creation. And Lehigh University biochemist Michael Behe had just published Darwin's Black Box, which introduced "irreducible complexity" =97 the notion that biological systems are too intricate to be the result of unguided evolution. Both developments helped lay the foundation for the movement that would become known as intelligent design. Gonzalez left the event feeling as if he had found his niche. While he once thought the universe was teeming with beings, he was beginning to think mankind might be alone in the cosmos. He also began to believe that the search for extraterrestrial intelligence, called SETI by astronomers, was an effort to discredit biblical accounts of creation. "It is no secret that most SETI advocates are also anti-theists," he wrote in a letter to a Website for Christian academics. "Atheists strongly ... support SETI, because the discovery of other intelligent beings in the Milky Way would show once and for all that we are not special.... It is only a small step, then, to discredit the Judeo-Christian worldview." Gonzalez went public with some of his ideas in a July 1997 op-ed he wrote for the Wall Street Journal. In it he argued that the evidence surfacing for life on Mars and Jupiter's moon Europa was flimsy, and the chances of ever finding life on other planets was exceedingly slim. The argument was pure science, except for the closing. It read: "We should not be asking: 'Are we alone?' We should instead be asking: 'Why are we here?'" Gonzalez, who has published more than 60 peer-reviewed papers, had never before hinted at his belief that the universe might have been created for a purpose. He simply didn't think his fellow scientists would be receptive. "There's almost a complete censorship of that point of view," he says. The Wall Street Journal editorial caught the eye of Jay Richards, vice president for research at the Discovery Institute. In 1999 Richards contacted Gonzalez, then a 35-year- old assistant professor at UW. Over lunch, Gonzalez told Richards his theory that our planet was designed not only to sustain intelligent life but also to foster scientific discovery. Richards encouraged him to apply for a grant from the John Templeton Foundation =97 which supports research on the intersection of faith and science =97 to develop the concept. Gonzalez did, and was awarded $58,000. Richards eventually began urging Gonzalez to write a book about his design theory. But Gonzalez had trouble, so he asked Richards to sign on as co-author. Richards agreed, and they began working on the project in 2001. By then, Gonzalez had secured a tenure-track position at Iowa State University. They published The Privileged Planet in March 2004. That September, Illustra Media, which specializes in intelligent design films, produced a documentary based on their work and began airing it on PBS stations. These developments were hailed by intelligent design advocates. "The book and film have expanded the intelligent design debate into a new arena," explains Discovery Institute president Bruce Chapman. "Most of the discussion has involved evolution =97 life on Earth. Gonzalez's work has shifted it into the field of ... how the universe has developed." Before long, the book was being translated into Spanish; the film into Mandarin, Cantonese, and Czech. Gonzalez's work garnered little attention outside the intelligent design community, though. That is, until May 28, when the New York Times ran a brief story saying that the Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History was hosting and cosponsoring the official premiere of the film in exchange for a $16,000 donation from the Discovery Institute. Shortly thereafter, James Randi, a MacArthur Award-winning skeptic from Fort Lauderdale, caught wind of the showing. Randi, a former magician, debunks supernatural and paranormal claims from his Davie Road headquarters, a hacienda-style building crowded with superstitious trinkets. Among them: statues of Bigfoot, a Scientology "e-meter," and a chunk of slate with a tiny winged skeleton etched into it =97 "proof," Randi explains, "that fairies existed in prehistoric times." The building also houses an ample library, where books are arranged alphabetically from alien abduction and alchemy to witches. Intelligent design literature is shelved under C for creationism. Randi dashed off a letter to the Museum of Natural History's director. "That you would sell your integrity for $16,000 is not merely incomprehensible," he seethed, "but also shameful." He also offered to pay the museum $20,000 to drop the film. Then he ran a story on his online newsletter about the showing. It warned that "the creationists are flailing about trying to borrow or steal validation from science" and urged readers to bombard the Smithsonian with e-mails. Days after Randi posted his missive, the museum began trying to distance itself from the film. Lucy Dorrick, associate director for special events, sent a message to the Discovery Institute, saying, "Upon further review, the Museum has determined that the content of the film is not consistent with the mission of the Smithsonian Institution's scientific research." The museum also withdrew cosponsorship and announced it would not accept the Discovery Institute's $16,000 fee. But the film would nevertheless be shown. Gonzalez and Richards believe the Smithsonian was responding to the e-mail campaign Randi unleashed. "He got people all heated up," Gonzalez grumbles. "His pronouncements were so hysterical; you would think I was saying the Earth didn't revolve around the sun." The Smithsonian's backpedaling made headlines in the Washington Post, the New York Times, Science Magazine, and Christianity Today, among other publications. Randi, who was interviewed for several stories, applauded the move, but scientists were vexed that the museum was moving ahead with the showing. Days before The Privileged Planet was to air, the top brass of the American Institute of Physics and six other major scientific organizations sent a letter urging the Smithsonian to drop the film. The American Geophysics Union, which represents researchers in the earth, space, and atmospheric sciences, went a step further, urging its 43,000 members to write Smithsonian board members directly. "The Smithsonian is a kind of gateway. It's the public's front door into science," explains Martha Heil, a spokesperson for the AIP. "So it's enormously troubling for it to show a film advocating intelligent design, a movement with the stated goal of overthrowing scientific materialism." Nevertheless, The Privileged Planet aired June 23. Afterward, the 300 attendees =97 among them National Geographic Television COO Ken Ferguson and U.S. Congressman John Culberson (R-Texas) =97 crowded into the Smithsonian's Hall of Gems for a reception. The Smithsonian dustup led some of Gonzalez's colleagues at Iowa State to worry that the university would be seen as a center of intelligent design research. And in late July, three professors drafted a petition urging the university to reject all attempts to represent intelligent design as science. It began circulating August 2, the day after George W. Bush made intelligent design the talk-show topic du jour by declaring it should be given a place alongside evolution in public schools. "Both sides ought to be properly taught," he explained, "so people can understand what the debate is about." All told, the professors collected some 130 signatures and submitted them to the university president. Gonzalez's name never appears in the document. "We saw this as attacking the idea, not the person," explains Hector Avalos, who helped organize the petition drive. But William Dembski, another senior fellow at the Discovery Institute and perhaps the best-known intelligent design theorist, suggests that the broadside was intended to destroy Gonzalez's career. "What's next? Petitioning Guillermo to turn in his telescope?" he quipped. In early September, the Discovery Institute issued a scathing press release. It contended that the petition =97 which it called "a blatant attack on academic freedom" and proof that "the Darwinist inquisition is spreading" =97 was circulated by "a small group of narrow-minded ... faculty members." A couple weeks later, the American Association of University Professors sent a letter applauding the professors for protecting academic freedom by standing up against intelligent design advocates. The controversy has continued to dog Gonzalez, even when he's ventured off his home campus. On September 28 he gave a lecture about The Privileged Planet at the University of Northern Iowa. A few days earlier, parents and school board members from Dover, Pennsylvania, began their high-profile court battle over intelligent design. The case has invited comparison to the one that ended in 1987 with a Supreme Court ban on teaching creationism in public-school science classes. Gonzalez's presentation was sponsored by Sigma Xi, an international science and engineering society, a fact that stirred outrage. In the weeks before Gonzalez's arrival, some faculty members began circulating a petition similar to Iowa State's and collected more than 100 signatures. The day of the event, students distributed anti-intelligent design pamphlets. And Gonzalez's talk, delivered to a standing-room-only crowd, was followed by a heated question-and-answer session. His next presentation, at Truman State University in Missouri this past October 5, also sparked fervent debate. Gonzalez has done his best to keep the controversy from his mother and sister in Hialeah. "I don't want them to know that my career is in danger," he explains. But privately he worries that the squabbles will jeopardize his chances of receiving tenure. He also puzzles over the firestorm his work has created. "I'm just a regular scientist who believes in God and has remained open to evidence of design in the universe," he says, his voice
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Re: Passive Radar - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:25:52 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:21:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Passive Radar - Smith >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 21:55:44 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:52:23 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >>Subject: Re: Passive Radar Good points you make and quite valid about filtering of data. So maybe all these UFOs are able to be picked up using radar, just not airport radar with its filters. >One personal example is >the statements by people on the ground at the airport in Cayo >Coco, Cuba who witnessed a red light moving low over the airport >which caused our aircraft to abort its landing. When I spoke to >the flight crew about the reason for the evasive actions taken >by our pilot (was it to avoid a possible collision with a UFO?) >they dismissed it as faulty equipment. You mean they said it showed up on radar? >Toronto, ON 21 October 2005 1057Z, (0657 local EDT) Four pilots >of two different commercial airliners reported to the Toronto >Air Traffic Control Centre that they had observed a "shiny, >silver object" flying at an altitude of approximately 30,000 >feet. The object disappeared from sight heading eastward over >Lake Ontario in a matter of seconds. The sky was clear and the >visibility was excellent at the time. No big deal except if it went straight up! >Canadian amateur and professional are pioneers in this new and >growing hobby of passive radar, especially the use of a network >of radio stations to allow them to not only to detect meteors >and other fast moving objects in our upper atmopshere which >ionize the air around them, like the Space Shuttle on re-entry, >but to also determine their original trajectories in space.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Re: Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:02:00 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:29:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors - Hall >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 09:36:20 -0600 >Subject: Re: Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 22:16:18 +0000 >>Subject: Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors >>Wendy Connors has very generously turned over to me some five >>hours of oral history interviews she conducted with me a few >>years back, in the form of digital video cassettes. <snip> >>The catch is that I can ill afford the costs of duplication, and >>so am seeking sponsors. <snip> >>- Richard Hall >I'm in for a 100, Sir... and I'll compose a review of same. >alienview.nul >www.AlienView.net >AVG Blog -- http://alienviewgroup.blogspot.com/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Re: Fly To The Moon In A Balloon! - Scheldroup From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:47:47 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:37:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Fly To The Moon In A Balloon! - Scheldroup >From: Joe McGonagle <joe.mcgonagle.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 03:59:52 -0000 >Subject: Fly To The Moon In A Balloon! >The following extract is from: >http://www.jpaerospace.com/atohandout.pdf >It looks like a novel, simple, and viable project to explore the >solar system. The main web site is at: >http://www.jpaerospace.com Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6495951/#041119b Nov. 19, 2004 The California-based venture had been working with the U.S. military to build a balloon-based, near-space platform for surveillance and communication, but the test program suffered a big setback when high winds ripped up JP's test balloon in West Texas - as we reported back in June. Since then, the Pentagon's program has shifted into its second phase in Oregon, but without JP as a partner. John Powell, who heads JP Aerospace, said he decided not to sign on for the second phase. "We just lost our shirts on the first one," he told me this week. "We also want to use it as a launch platform for our high- altitude rockets," he said. ----- Source: http://www.jhu.edu/news/home05/jul05/blimp.html Johns Hopkins University July 19, 2005 Students Steer a Blimp to Test Near Space Military Technology
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Taurid Fireballs From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 19:56:25 -0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:52:58 -0500 Subject: Taurid Fireballs Source: NASA Science News http://tinyurl.com/bnfez 11.03.2005 Fireball Sightings Earth is orbiting through a swarm of space debris that may be producing an unusual number of nighttime fireballs. November 3, 2005: "I thought some wise guy was shining a spotlight at me," says Josh Bowers of New Germany, Pennsylvania. "Then I realized what it was: a fireball in the southern sky. I was doing some backyard astronomy around 9 p.m. on Halloween (Oct. 31, 2005), and this meteor was so bright it made me lose my night vision." Bowers wasn't the only one who saw the fireball. Lots of people were outdoors Trick or Treating. They saw what Bowers saw ... and more. Before the night was over, reports of meteors "brighter than a full moon" were streaming in from coast to coast. Astronomers have taken to calling these the "Halloween fireballs." But there's more to it than Halloween. The display has been going on for days. [illustration] Right: The bright light behind the clouds is a fireball photographed Nov. 2, 2005, by Mark Vorhusen of Germany. [More] On Oct. 30, for example, Bill Plaskon of Jonesport, Maine, was "observing Mars through a 10-inch telescope at 10:04 p.m. EST when a brilliant fireball lit up the sky and left a short corkscrew-like smoke trail that lasted about 1 minute." On Oct 28, Lance Taylor of Edmonton, Alberta, woke up early to go fishing with five friends. At about 6 a.m. they "noticed a nice fireball. Then 20 minutes later there was another," he says. On Nov. 2 in the Netherlands, "The sky lit up very bright," reports Koen Miskotte. "In the corner of my eye I saw a fireball about as bright [as a crescent moon]." And so on=85. What's happening? "People are probably seeing the Taurid meteor shower," says meteor expert David Asher of the Armagh Observatory in Northern Ireland. Every year in late October and early November, he explains, Earth passes through a river of space dust associated with Comet Encke. Tiny grains hit our atmosphere at 65,000 mph. At that speed, even a tiny smidgen of dust makes a vivid streak of light--a meteor--when it disintegrates. Because these meteors shoot out of the constellation Taurus, they're called Taurids. [illustration] Above: a Taurid fireball photographed Oct. 28, 2005, by Hiroyuki Iida of Toyama, Japan. Most years the shower is weak, producing no more than five rather dim meteors every hour. But occasionally, the Taurids put on quite a show. Fireballs streak across the sky, ruining night vision and interrupting fishing trips. Asher thinks 2005 could be such a year. According to Asher, the fireballs come from a swarm of particles bigger than the usual dust grains. "They're about the size of pebbles or small stones," he says. (It may seem unbelievable that a pebble can produce a fireball as bright as the Moon, but remember, these things hit the atmosphere at very high speed.) The rocky swarm moves within the greater Taurid dust stream, sometimes hitting Earth, sometimes not. "In the early 1990s, when Victor Clube was supervising my PhD work on Taurids," recalls Asher, "we came up with this model of a swarm within the Taurid stream to explain enhanced numbers of bright Taurid meteors being observed in particular years." They listed "swarm years" in a 1993 paper in the Quarterly Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society and predicted an encounter in 2005. It seems to be happening. When should you look? You might see a fireball flitting across the sky any time Taurus is above the horizon. At this time of year, the Bull rises in the east at sunset. The odds of seeing a bright meteor improve as the constellation climbs higher. By midnight, Taurus is nearly overhead, so that is a particularly good time. Right: Click on the image to view a full-sized sky map. [More] According to the International Meteor Organization, the Taurid shower peaks between Nov. 5th and Nov. 12th (details). "Earth takes a week or two to traverse the swarm," notes Asher. "This comparatively long duration means you don't get spectacular
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Re: Gill Sighting - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:12:54 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:55:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Gill Sighting - Rimmer >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:21:12 -0800 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 18:54:38 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>The significant phrase above is "mainstream newspapers in the >>U.S." I do not have any psychic abilities, but what evidence, >>psychic or otherwise, do you have that Gill read American >>newspapers, more specifically those which happen to be indexed >>in the search engines you have access to? >>As Peter Rogerson has pointed out in another post, popular >>UFO imagery was widespread in Britain in the 1950s, perhaps more >>so than in America, especially in the popular weekly newspapers >>and magazines which are unlikely to be indexed. >>Even if Gill had not read Adamski, and I see no reason to doubt >>that, this does not mean that he would have been hermetically >>sealed from all UFO reports, articles and news items. >Did I hear that right? For years John Rimmer has been insulting >Americans as gullible UFO believers who started the whole UFO >craze in 1947, whereas the British were supposedly more educated >and sophisticated and didn't fall for the stuff like the Yanks >did. I think you must be confusing me with the other John Rimmer. I can't ever recall calling Americans "gullible UFO believers", although of course a goodly number are, as indeed are far too many of the inhabitants of my own fair islands. Perhaps you could trawl through my hundreds of thousands of posts on this auspicious List, and quote the one you had in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Koi From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 21:06:49 -0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:57:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Koi >From: Brian Adams <ufosource.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 15:29:57 -0600 >Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? >>From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:18:08 -0000 >>Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? >>Relevant current entries in the draft chronology include the >>entries for the following: ><snip> >Add 1984-85 to the list an American TV miniseries called "V". >Those reptilians disguised as humans really impressed me. >http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086822/ >Brian Adams Hi Brian, Don't worry - I hadn't forgotten about "V". The chronology lists TV series (including mini-series) separately from movies - e.g. Star Trek, The Invaders, Dr Who, Intruders etc. The entry for "V" is : "1984.1000 TV mini-series: "V" begins broadcasting". Episode guide and other details available online at: http://www.tvtome.com/V/ Since the list of references I've noted for discussion of the TV mini-series "V" in UFO/SETI books is relatively short, I'll cut and past it below for anyone that wants to refresh their memory or see what comments have been made about it. Andrews, George C in his "Extra-Terrestrial Friends and Foes" (1993) at pages 238-239 (in Chapter 11) of the Illuminet Press softcover edition. Andrews, George C in his "Extra-Terrestrials Among Us" (1986) at pages 27-28 (in Chapter 1) of the Llewellyn softcover edition, at pages 31-32 of the Llewellyn paperback edition. Birnes, William in his "The UFO Magazine UFO Encyclopedia" (2004) at page 319 (in an entry entitled " 'V', The Series") of the Pocket Books softcover edition. Forstchen, William in "Making Contact" (1997) (edited by Bill Fawcett) at page 257 (in Section 4) of the Morrow hardback edition. Kottmeyer, Martin S in "The Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters" (2001) (edited by Ronald Story) at pages 489-490 (in an entry entitled "Reptoids") of the New American Library softcover edition, at page 479 of the pdf edition (with the same page numbering in the Microsoft Word edition). Kottmeyer, Martin S in "The Mammoth Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters" (2001) (edited by Ronald Story) at page 589 (in an entry entitled "Reptoids") of the Robinson softcover edition. Plait, Philip in his "Bad Astronomy" (2002) at pages 251, 252 (in Chapter 24) of the Wiley softcover edition. Randles, Jenny in her "The Complete Book of Aliens and Abductions" (1999) at page 130 (in Part 4) of the Piatkus hardback edition. Rux, Bruce in his "Hollywood Vs. the Aliens" (1997) at pages 299-300 (in Chapter 6) of the Frog softcover edition. Turner, Karla in her "Into the Fringe" (1992) at page 93 (in Chapter 5) of the Berkley paperback edition. (Most of the movies in the list I posted a few days ago are discussed in far more UFO/SETI books than there are discussions of "V"). I think it is Plait's book ("Bad Astronomy") which is most critical of the basic idea in "V" that aliens would come to Earth to steal the water from the Earth's oceans. (From memory, he asks why aliens would bother taking water from a planet when this would require having to lift the mass of water against that planet's gravity when you could instead get water from comets etc). That prompts the question of why extraterrestrials might in fact want to come to Earth. Stanton Friedman has presented a list of 26 motivations for interstellar travel in: (a) "The Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters" (2001) (edited by Ronald Story) at pages 34-35 (in an entry entitled "Alien Motives") of the New American Library softcover edition, at pages 33-34 of the pdf edition (with the same page numbering in the Microsoft Word edition). (b) "The Mammoth Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters" (2001) (edited by Ronald Story) at pages 38-39 (in an entry entitled "alien motives") of the Robinson softcover edition. That list is in turn discussed (and criticized) by Martin S Kottmeyer in the same books at: (a) "The Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters" (2001) (edited by Ronald Story) at page 440 (in an entry entitled "Problem of Noncontact") of the New American Library softcover edition, at page 431 of the pdf edition (with the same page numbering in the Microsoft Word edition). (b) "The Mammoth Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters" (2001) (edited by Ronald Story) at page 530 (in an entry entitled "Problem of Noncontact") of the Robinson softcover edition. I recently gave into the temptation to buy "V" on DVD. For those of you that need some help with the considerable difficulties involved in suspending disbelief when watching "V" some limited assistance (or at least entertainment) can be gained from reading about the article Dale Russell (a paleontologist) wrote in 1982 an article exploring the hypothetical evolution of the dinsosaur Troodon (also known as Stenonychosaurus inequalis). (Russell, D. A. and Sequin, R. "Reconstruction of the small Cretaceous theropod Stenonychosaurus inequalis and a hypothetical dinosauroid," Syllogeous, volume 37, pages 1-43 (1982).) Dale Russell's article is discussed in a number of books. Current references in the draft Chronology are listed below. (I'd note that the David Darling discussion being available online): Andrews, George C in his "Extra-Terrestrials Among Us" (1986) at pages 217-218 (in Chapter 7) of the Llewellyn softcover edition, at page 247 of the Llewellyn paperback edition. Blum, Howard in his "Out There" (1990) at pages 204-205 (in Chapter 29) of the Simon & Schuster hardback edition, at pages 225-227 of the Pocket Star paperback edition. Craft, Michael in his "Alien Impact" (1996) at page 128 (in Chapter 7) of the St Martin's Paperbacks paperback edition. Darling, David in his "The Extraterrestrial Encyclopedia" (2000) at pages 103-104 (in the entry entitled "dinosaurs, intelligent") of the Three Rivers softcover edition. Darling, David in his online encyclopedia, "The Encyclopedia of Astrobiology, Astronomy and Spaceflight" (2003) in the entry entitled "dinosaurs, intelligent". The relevant entry is available online at: http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/D/dinosaurintell.html Kottmeyer, Martin S in "The Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters" (2001) (edited by Ronald Story) at page 489 (in an entry entitled "Reptoids") of the New American Library softcover edition, at page 478 of the pdf edition (with the same page numbering in the Microsoft Word edition). Kottmeyer, Martin S in "The Mammoth Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters" (2001) (edited by Ronald Story) at page 588 (in an entry entitled "Reptoids") of the Robinson softcover edition. Oliver, Bernard M in an interview in David W Swift's "SETI Pioneers : Scientists Talk About Their Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence" (1990) at pages 108-109 (in the unnumbered chapter entitled "Bernard M Oliver") of the Arizona hardback edition. Ridpath, Ian in his "Life Off Earth" (1983) at pages 102, 103
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Many Unusual Fireball Sightings From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 16:46:05 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:58:33 -0500 Subject: Many Unusual Fireball Sightings Hi Everyone! Although someone has predicted that the 2005 annual Taurid meteor shower around this time of the year will produce a higher rate of "shooting stars", including many much brighter fireballs that light up the night sky, those many unusual fireballs reported well before the peak of this meteor shower are very likely not associated with this annual event. See NASA Science News for November 3, 2005 for further details.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Philip Klass Letter Found From: Richard Dolan <keyhole.nul> Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:10:57 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:00:29 -0500 Subject: Philip Klass Letter Found Greetings, Last month, while I was at the Canadian National Archives, in Ottawa, Ontario, I found an interesting letter from the recently deceased UFO debunker, Philip J. Klass. This letter was apparently previously unknown. I suspect that it would be of interest to some people in the UFO field, and I put it on my website last week, at: http://keyholepublishing.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 The Klass Letter On Friedman From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:42:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:02:39 -0500 Subject: The Klass Letter On Friedman Errol and List, I was emailed [as were many of you] a message by Richard Dolan re his posting of the letter Phill Klass sent to The Herzberg Institute [Canada] badmouthing Stan Friedman's planned move to Canada. A scan of that letter letter was posted on Rich Dolan's his website. http://keyholepublishing.com I responded with some of my suspicions re Klass's second career. See below: It's my opinion that Klass was an associate "spook" for the US military or some other agency similar in makeup and aspirations. As Klass was the senior editor of one of the most respected aero-space magazines in the world he was stratigically placed to do the most damage with the credentials to imply and denigrate. In return I suspect that he was likely fed material-unavailable to other like magazines- for AW&ST making him a valuable asset to that magazine. A stipend was likely added to sweeten the pot. This deal probably escalated in content and remunerative benefits [possibly wheels were greased for his publications] as time passed. Any takers?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 3 Re: Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors - From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 16:53:17 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:04:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors - >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:02:00 +0000 >Subject: Re: Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 09:36:20 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 22:16:18 +0000 >>>Subject: Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors >>>Wendy Connors has very generously turned over to me some five >>>hours of oral history interviews she conducted with me a few >>>years back, in the form of digital video cassettes. ><snip> >>>The catch is that I can ill afford the costs of duplication, and >>>so am seeking sponsors. ><snip> >>>- Richard Hall >>I'm in for a 100, Sir... and I'll compose a review of same. >You are most generous of heart and spirit, even though badly >mistaken of mind. (-; Hmmm... I'll accept that gratefully, Sir, and report that you have ample idiosyncratic credit remaining.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 Re: Gill Sighting - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:15:51 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 07:36:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Gill Sighting - Clark >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:12:54 +0000 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:21:12 -0800 >>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 18:54:38 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>>Even if Gill had not read Adamski, and I see no reason to doubt >>>that, this does not mean that he would have been hermetically >>>sealed from all UFO reports, articles and news items. >>Did I hear that right? For years John Rimmer has been insulting >>Americans as gullible UFO believers who started the whole UFO >>craze in 1947, whereas the British were supposedly more educated >>and sophisticated and didn't fall for the stuff like the Yanks >>did. >I think you must be confusing me with the other John Rimmer. I >can't ever recall calling Americans "gullible UFO believers", >although of course a goodly number are, as indeed are far too >many of the inhabitants of my own fair islands. >Perhaps you could trawl through my hundreds of thousands of >posts on this auspicious List, and quote the one you had in >mind? This is indeed hilarious. I have been reading Magonia probably longer than anybody who doesn't edit the magazine, and the ridicule directed against American ufologists - synonymous with gullible twits - is one of the publication's principal and recurrent themes. So much so, in fact, that I've pointed on this List to the (unconscious or otherwise) anti-Americanism implicit in this strange obsession. When I've mentioned the matter, Magonians have responded only with a feeble and notably convictionless show of indignation. The very mention of "American ufologist" (aka "rude colonial") is sufficient occasion for rounds of hearty Blimpish laughter at the Skeptics Club in the Pelican Pub. (I believe the Skeptics alternates nights with the Drones Club, if my information is correct, or at least occupies an adjoining room in the establishment. I have no information, however, on whether there are food fights at the Skeptics Club, or whether members include Gussie Fink-Nottle, Bingo Little, Catsmeat Potter- Pirbright, and Bertie Wooster; if so, they have not published under their own names in the pelicanist literature.) >Tootle pip
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman - Chichikov From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:26:21 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 07:39:03 -0500 Subject: Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman - Chichikov >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:42:03 -0400 >Subject: The Klass Letter On Friedman <snip> >It's my opinion that Klass was an associate "spook" for the US >military or some other agency similar in makeup and aspirations. >As Klass was the senior editor of one of the most respected >aero-space magazines in the world he was stratigically placed to >do the most damage with the credentials to imply and denigrate. >In return I suspect that he was likely fed material-unavailable >to other like magazines- for AW&ST making him a valuable asset >to that magazine. A stipend was likely added to sweeten the pot. >This deal probably escalated in content and remunerative >benefits [possibly wheels were greased for his publications] as >time passed. If the UFO phenomenon does turn out to be a real one and not fiction, our common world-view is not going to be the only casualty. Many careers will also suffer, and some public figures will have pinned jackass ears on themselves, if not devil's horns.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 19:30:39 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 08:00:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Boone >From: Richard Dolan <keyhole.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:10:57 -0500 >Subject: Philip Klass Letter Found >Greetings, >Last month, while I was at the Canadian National Archives, in >Ottawa, Ontario, I found an interesting letter from the recently >deceased UFO debunker, Philip J. Klass. This letter was >apparently previously unknown. I suspect that it would be of >interest to some people in the UFO field, and I put it on my >website last week, at: >http://keyholepublishing.com Outstanding! Hats off to you Richard Dolan! I've said this many times before, when a researcher goes into character assassination it invalidates any data they bring forth. How can there be an objective study when one's mind is already made up? Beat to that when one engages in such low brow attacks on a fellow scientist. This evidence you've presented washes out everything Klass has presented. Vindictive, spiteful and hateful attacks on the researcher not the research shows where the real intention comes from. I won't even lower myself to attack Klass. That would be a validation of what he did. Sure Ufology can use some good counterpoints to keep an even keel but not end up in the gutter like some politicals. Glad I ruined my reputation and credibility on my own, it makes
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 Re: Abduction Reports Are Rising On TV - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 19:45:37 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 08:02:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction Reports Are Rising On TV - Boone >Source: Lexington Herald Leader - Lexington, Kentucky, USA >http://tinyurl.com/8t9kf >Nov. 03, 2005 >Alien Abduction Reports Are Rising - As Seen On TV >By Amy Wilson >Herald-leader Staff Writer Outstanding! Thanks Stuart Miller! I was hoping for a story like this after reading the Shostak article at Space.com with it's own poll. 3.7 million Americans feel they've been abducted? That's not a fad, that's an epidemic! I expect any day now some psychiatrist teamed up with Merck to come up with some new drug to handle this. Have they made up a new malady yet? 3.7 million people with sleep paralysis? That's scary! This article proves they're grasping at the shadows of straws. These attempts at invalidating abductees' testimony are so pathetic I expect the Blue Fairy to show up and promise to make them real boys. Oh wait, Blue Fairy arrives at night, mysterious lights, dreamlike quality... Oh gosh! Pinocchio was an abductee! Merck's gonna put out a 'Blue Fairy Pill' to help abductees! Now that there's money in it I'll bet they will. Dr. Clancy is scaring me. Not because of her research but that she's allowed to do research. This is a crying shame. Probably 100 million Americans will swear up and down that an angel helped them at some time during any given year and you don't see Harvard putting out a blanket statement about them having some mental disorder or phenomenon. Because if they did, millions of peace loving Christians would hunt them down and wear out both knee caps kickin' their butts. Finally, after all these years, skeptibunking is dying from chronic pitifulness.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 Re: Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors - From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 19:56:35 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 08:04:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors - >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 22:16:18 +0000 >Subject: Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors >Wendy Connors has very generously turned over to me some >five >hours of oral history interviews she conducted with me a few >years back, in the form of digital video cassettes. A Canadian >List member has volunteered his time to edit the tapes and >produce a DVD master which I can then have duplicated and >offer >for sale. I would also like to have a VHS version. >The catch is that I can ill afford the costs of duplication, and >so am seeking sponsors. Anyone who cares what I have to say >about the UFO subject and my role in research and >investigations >from my 50-year perspective (please, please, don't break down >the doors... easy now, no stampede) is invited to contribute to >the project via PayPal (dh12.nul) or check (a.k.a., >cheque), or money order. Contributors of at least $50 will >receive one or more copies of the finished product. >- Richard Hall I too shall chip in Mr. Hall. Sure I may not agree with everything you bring forward but I agree with 99% :) With all the time and effort and self sacrifice you've put in to this field it's the least I can do. I'm so surprised how many pals of mine in animation, comics, and sci-fi are fans of yours but won't admit to UFO interests in public. You've got some very, very, popular fans! That comes from respect. This also brings to mind something of importance I've been working on for a while. Corporate sponsors for the top ufologists. Heck, the skeptibunkers get all kinds of money why not the pioneers and adventurers who have been spending their own money? I've said before and will say again some of the most engaging and humorous people I've met are in ufology. The skeptibunkers are the boring lot. About as much personality as last week's gruel. I'll be meeting soon with some pals who represent many of the major corporations from around the world. We get together now and then and toss around ideas for sponsorships and charities etc. I haven't met with them in a while but my track record for successful campaigns is flawless. I will mention ufology and with all the UFO related movies, tv shows, books etc. raking in the dough, I'll emphasize the importance of those who blazed the way. I don't expect to show up at the next UFO conference and seeing ufologists plastered with Valvoline and Pepsi stickers like a NASCAR racer but I'm sure the amount companies spend on one commercial is more than goes into the ufologists rebel alliance in a decade.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 Re: Passive Radar - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 11:38:45 -0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 08:07:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Passive Radar - Shough >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 21:55:44 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:52:23 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >>Subject: Re: Passive Radar ><snip> >>I am talking only about UFO cases in which the UFO remains >>unexplained after the report is published and, in the >>description of the report, "someone" calls the tower to ask if >>anything is on radar. I would suspect that >95% of the radar >>operators say nothing is on radar to explain the UFO sighting >>AND nothing is even on the radar. I think if there were co- >>incidental unexplained radar contact this would be a VERY big >>deal and really be headline news. Instead, we "always" get the >>"nothing shows up on radar" story. ><snip> >During a recent visit to the solar neutrino observatory (SNO) >deep underground in Sudbury (located about a 5 hour drive north >of Toronto), I noticed that their detection instruments were >picking up signals of many other mysterious energetic particles >in addition to the neutrinos which originate from the Sun. Since >the energies of these mysterious particles were not within the >range of energies for neutrinos which they were interested in, >they were simply ignored! This practice is not uncommon by >researchers and especially by operators of commerical equipment >such as airport radars systems. <snip> >Modern airport radars have filters to eliminate everything not >behaving within the usual characteristics of commercial >aircraft, including the occasional truck that used to be picked >up in the past when radar bounced off the ground, etc. Like the >specialized detection instruments at SNO, just because UFOs are >no longer picked up by modern airport radars is that these >instruments are not designed or used to detect them so when we >read "nothing showed up on radar" after a UFO was reported in >the sky, this is not entirely correct. Hi Nick Yes, exactly so. As I've argued more than once before, the ways a modern radar display is designed to sanitize and systematize the signal (by SSR, synthetic displays etc) and to suppress the noise (circular/elliptical polarisations and other anti-clutter tools) are not always helpful for us and could effectively add up to an anti-UFO filter! Some interesting (maybe even risky) things could be rejected by this technology. Also the way primary radar skin paints and SSR transponder codes are computer-integrated on ATC scopes allows operators to selectively switch off targets. SSR replies are plotted as identical symbols with ident and altitude attached. Skin paints from the primary radar are often considered irrelevant or even a nuisance, and according to glider pilots for example - who worry about not (usually) having transponders and rely on their sometimes-weak skin paints - they find that these codes are routinely _turned_off_ by controllers. In very busy periods even non-commercial SSR codes are sometimes turned off! No UFOs then, either. >One personal example is >the statements by people on the ground at the airport in Cayo >Coco, Cuba who witnessed a red light moving low over the >airport which caused our aircraft to abort its landing. When >I spoke to the flight crew about the reason for the evasive >actions taken by our pilot (was it to avoid a possible collision >with a UFO?) they dismissed it as faulty equipment. Intriguing. I wonder when this happened and what the "equipment" was? There were many problems reported with the TACAS on-board collision avoidance radar during the early 90s. Vide this press story: "Air traffic controllers urged Congress yesterday [08 Oct 91] to suspend installation of the new Traffic Alert Collision Avoidance System in the cockpits of commercial aircraft, contending that they cause chaos in control towers. But Federal Aviation Administration officials said problems with the system - including a tendency to warn of "phantom'' aircraft that do not exist - either have been resolved or are near resolution. Barry Krasner, president of the national Air Traffic Controllers Association, told the House Transportation Subcommittee on Investigations that from May to September, pilots and controllers reported 590 incidents of malfunctioning involving the alarms, which are designed to warn pilots when they are on a potential collision course with another aircraft. [San Francisco Chronicle, 09 Oct 91]" >Below is a recent UFO sighting over the Toronto area reported >by Chris Rutkowski which could turn out to be "a VERY big deal >and really be headline news" if someone bothered to ask if either >Toronto ATC radar or the aircraft anticollision radar system >present in many modern airliners detected this UFO. I believe the modern TACAS anti-collision system is a beacon- triggered system like SSR or IFF, not a primary radar, and it issues avoidance instructions to the pilot. I don't think there's any sort of video display (though presumably data are recorded for inquiry purposes) and it wouldn't detect a UFO anyway if it didn't carry another TACAS. >Without asking, this sighting can easily and resonably be >explained as a distant meteor if it was seen close to the >horizon (even trained observers such as pilots can mistakenly >interpret such a distant meteor as an object at the same >cruising altitude). >Toronto, ON 21 October 2005 1057Z, (0657 local EDT) Four pilots >of two different commercial airliners reported to the Toronto >Air Traffic Control Centre that they had observed a "shiny, >silver object" flying at an altitude of approximately 30,000 >feet. The object disappeared from sight heading eastward over >Lake Ontario in a matter of seconds. The sky was clear and the >visibility was excellent at the time. Possibly an early Taurid? This is interesting in view of the apparent increase in Taurid fireball reports in this shower as mentioned in another post. Just a wild guess of course in the absence of more information. <snip> >Canadian amateur and professional are pioneers in this new and >growing hobby of passive radar, especially the use of a network >of radio stations to allow them to not only to detect meteors >and other fast moving objects in our upper atmopshere which >ionize the air around them, like the Space Shuttle on re-entry, >but to also determine their original trajectories in space. >Avoid trying to reinvent the wheel by checking out the web site >below for details and further leads. >http://www.gsoft.com.au/skiymet.html This Australian meteor radar is very interesting but is not a passive radar. It is an interferometric receiver (like a phased array) which uses its own dedicated HF/VHF transmitter sited at the receiver location and working only by direct backscatter. It is is basically an ordinary active monostatic radar for all-sky surveillance. This does not have the benefits of a passive array. >Philip Gebhardt of Pickering, Ontario (just east of Toronto) is >an expert on this subject and has written an excellent article >titled 'Radio Detection of Meteors' for the 'Observer's >Handbook 2005' of the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada >of which I am a Life Member. Check out his web site below. >http://www.odxa.on./meteor.html >Also, see the December 1997 issue of 'Sky & Telescope', page >108 for more information. Good stuff. In fact if you google "radio meteor scatter" you'll get over 100,000 hits. One interesting page is the Global Meteor-Scatter Network at: http://aio.arc.nasa.gov/~leonid/Global-MS-Net/ "Global-MS-Net is a global network of automatic meteor counting stations, which uses the technique of forward meteor scatter to monitor the level of meteor activity. The network is made possible by a consortium of amateur radio meteor observers." While we're at it here are some more sources bearing on passive r adar issues that we've been discussing (some URLs, some need googling): 1) Lockheed Martin Mission Systems "Silent Sentry", commercial passive surveillance radar 2) Automatic Target Recognition using Passive Radar, Shawn Herman and Pierre Moulin "This research explores the classification capabilities of an automatic target recognizer operating in conjunction with a passive radar system. Our industrial partner in this work is the Silent Sentry development team at Lockheed Martin Mission Systems in Gaithersburg, MD. Because Silent Sentry is a commercially available passive radar, Lockheed Martin is able to inform us of both real-world difficulties and realistic operating characteristics of these sorts of tracking systems." 3) Region-enhanced Passive Radar Imaging, Mujdat Cetin and Aaron D. Lanterman. "Abstract: We adapt and apply a recently-developed region- enhanced synthetic aperture radar (SAR) imagereconstruction technique to the problem of passive radar imaging. One goal in passive radar imagingis to form images of aircraft using signals transmitted by commercial radio and television stations thatare reflected from the objects of interest. This involves reconstructing an image from sparse samples of its Fourier transform." This is work funded jointly by NATO and DARPA, published by the IEE. http://ssg.mit.edu/group/mcetin/publications/cetin_IEE_RSN05.pdf . 4) A new approach to a multistatic passive radar sensor for air defense, Koch, V., Westphal, R., Diehl GmbH & Co., Roethenbach; Record of the IEEE 1995 International Radar Conference, 1995, Alexandria, VA, USA., "Abstract: A method to apply the latest technology in global navigation satellite systems (GNSS), in particular the U.S. NAVSTAR GPS (Navigation System for Timing and Ranging Global Positioning System) and the Russian GLONASS (Global'naya Navigatsionnaya Sputnikovaya Sistema), as a silent multistatic or parasitic radar for air defense is described. These satellite systems serving as navigational aids are well suited for low power radar applications due to the similarity and compatibility of the transmitted satellite signals with modern radar signals, such as spread spectrum modulation and pseudo random noise (PRN) codes. Preliminary flight tests with airships, jet and propeller aircraft, helicopter and anti tank missiles to study effects have been conducted." 5) Multistatic passive radar imaging using the smoothed pseudoWigner-Ville distribution, Yong Wu, Munson, D.C., Jr. Dept. of Electr. & Comput. Eng., Illinois Univ., Urbana, IL. Proceedings, 2001 International Conference on Image Processing, Thessaloniki, Greece "Abstract: We investigate passive radar imaging of aircraft using reflected TV signals. We apply a smoothed pseudo Wigner- Ville distribution (SPWVD) based SAR imaging algorithm to two different scenarios. In the first simulation, a multistatic VHF- band dataset generated by fast Illinois solver code (FISC) is used. In the second simulation, a more realistic simulated passive radar dataset is used. A set of instantaneous images is produced by our algorithm. They have higher resolution and show more detail and features of the aircraft than can be obtained by direct Fourier reconstruction (DFR). The set of images provides more visual information about the target and helps to estimate its shape and features. This study suggests that the SPWVD-based imaging might be useful in passive radar imaging and target classification." 6) Validation Through Comparison: Measurement and Calculation of the Bistatic Radar Cross Section (BRCS) of a Stealth Target L. G=FCrel, H. Ba ci, J. C. Castelli, A. Cheraly, and F. Tardivel Department of Electrical and Electronics Engineering Bilkent University, TR-06533 Bilkent, Ankara, Turkey ONERA, Electromagnetism and Radar Department BP 72 92322 Ch=E2tillon CEDEX, France Short title: Bistatic RCS of a Stealth Target. Extract: "RCS is a function of various parameters, such as the frequency, directions of incidence and scattering, and polarization. When the directions of incidence and the scattering are the same, the resulting RCS values are called monostatic RCS. Bistatic RCS (BRCS) [Glasier, 1989; Blyakhman and Runova, 2001] is due to the more general case, namely, when the directions of incidence and scattering are not necessarily the same. This is the kind of RCS obtained by a bistatic radar that uses antennas at different locations for transmission and reception [Hanle, 1986]. The concept of bistatic radar is not new since the earliest radars were of this type. However, recently there is renewed interest in bistatic radars due to their ability to detect stealth targets [Boyle and Wasylkiwskyj, 1994]. Furthermore, bistatic and passive radars employing transmitters of opportunity, such as television broadcasting transmitters [Howland, 1999; Poullin and Lesturgie, 1994], have recently emerged as exciting possibilities. A good understanding of the BRCS that is obtained by various types of bistatic radars for different targets is imperative for the development and optimization of such radars." This is a NATO sponsored study. 7) Passive Radar and the Low Frequency Array Frank D. Lind, MIT Haystack Observatory, John D. Sahr, Department of Electrical Engineering, University of Washington "ABSTRACT: The proposed Low Frequency Array will be a powerful new radio telescope operating in the 15 to 240 MHz range. LOFAR will be a fully digital instrument with tens of thousands of antennas and receivers. In the currently proposed configuration LOFAR will also be capable of operating as a high performance passive radar system using FM radio stations as signals of opportunity. In this mode of operation LOFAR will observe geophysical targets such as ionospheric irregularities and meteor trails with high resolution in range, velocity, azimuth, and elevation. These phenomenon may be important to the operation of LOFAR as a radio telescope because of their potential to interfere with astronomical observations." 8) The Wikipedia entry is a very good summary http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_radar 9) Celldar Cellphone Radar System, Roke Manor Research/BAE Systems: "During 2001 we combined our expertise in radar technology and cellular radio to develop CELLDART, a groundbreaking technique that uses the reflection of digital telephone signals from the sides of aircraft or boats to detect and track their movement. "Using demonstrator equipment, we have shown that CELLDART can detect large aircraft over hundreds of kilometres, providing there is a cell phone network present to illuminate the targets. "Initial CELLDART Trials: The first trials were conducted back in November 2001. It was from the success of these trials that a CELLDART development programme was started. During these trials both aircraft and cars were successfully detected and tracked. "CELLDART Trials Equipment: 2 x Siemens GSM Phones acting as receivers for the base station signal and the reflected signal from the target. 2 x Yagi aerials 1 x PC, Standard desktop machine. 200KHz AD converters to digitise signals receive from the GSM phones. "In initial trials the target aircraft flew in from 2km away at various speeds. Since the initial trials, further trials have been successfully conducted. In these more recent trials the CELLDART demonstrator has detected and tracked as targets: Ground vehicles, Civil aircraft, Combat aircraft." http://www.roke.co.uk/sensors/stealth/celldar.asp And of course . . . 9) USING MULTISTATIC PASSIVE RADAR FOR REAL-TIME DETECTION OF UFO'S IN THE NEAR-EARTH ENVIRONMENT Peter B. Davenport, Director, National UFO Reporting Center, Seattle, Washington Astract: "The author proposes a system for the remote, real-time detection of UFO's in the near-Earth environment, using passive, multi-static, frequency-modulated (FM) radar. The system capitalizes on the use of multiple, time-synchronized radio receivers to capture high-frequency radio signals reflected from a target. The time-lapse between received signals, together with three-dimensional Doppler-shift analysis, permits calculation of a target's location, velocity, acceleration, flight path, and other parameters, possibly to include target size estimation. Signal analysis of the reflected signal, combined with analysis of target characteristics, will permit discrimination between suspected UFO's, and targets of terrestrial origin, e.g. aircraft, satellites, space debris, meteor trails, upper atmospheric conditions, weather phenomena, migratory birds, the Moon, etc.. One application proposed may allow detection of UFO's out to a range of at least 27,600 kilometers from the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 November 1 & 2 2005 Mexican UFO Reports From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 06:54:44 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 08:12:24 -0500 Subject: November 1 & 2 2005 Mexican UFO Reports INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology November 3, 2005 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Source: www.analuisacid.com Date: November 3, 2005 Mexico: UFO Reports From November 1 And 2, 2005 November 1, 2005 =46rom Mexico City's Claver=EDa district comes the report of a large flying object that was accompanied by a smaller "escort" according to the eyewitness report of Gustavo Casasola, a renowned sky watcher. Gustavo managed to find that it was a very large sphere that remained static for over an hour after heading for the volcano area (Editor: this is the area of the Popocatepetl and Iztaccihuatl volcanos at the southern end of Anahuac valley). Subsequently, a report was recevied from Ricardo Antonio Morales, who reported a shining spherical object from the Coyoac=E1n district as it hung suspended in the sky, noting that its intensity diminished as airliner went past at approximately 13:00 hours. Slightly later, Victor Gabriel Gonzalez was able to videotape the aforementioned event from the town of Tepexpan in Mexico State, reporting that the sphere remained in the sky until 17:45 hours. November 2, 2005 At 8:30 a.m., Ana Luisa Cid witnessed the transit of an elongated luminous object through her window. The object made back-and-forth movements which were captured on videotape for a few minutes from Mexico City's northern region. She subsequently received a report from Salvador Guerrero, advising her that a flotilla of spheres had been recorded at 15:20 hours and noting that the contingent was flying at a high altitude toward the Iztaccihuatl volcano. At night, young Ricardo Antonio Morales reported his sighting of a large green luminous sphere over the Mexico-Puebla Highway, witnessed by the passengers on the bus in which he rode toward the port city of Veracruz. Prof. Cid mantained permanent cell phone contact with Morales and was able to pick up on the excitement of those present, suggesting that the take some photos, which he did. These will be provided after they have been developed, in the hopes that they meet with the necessary characteristics for timely publication. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 Fireballs Seen Over Germany Spark UFO Speculation From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 08:25:29 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 08:25:29 -0500 Subject: Fireballs Seen Over Germany Spark UFO Speculation Source: Reuters http://tinyurl.com/d8oza Fri Nov 4, 2005 Fireballs Seen Over Germany Spark UFO Speculation BERLIN (Reuters) - Numerous sightings of massive fireballs in the skies over Germany this week have led to an upsurge in reports of UFOs, but scientists believe the cause could be a bizarre annual meteor blitz. According to the Web site of the U.S. National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), such fireballs have been reported elsewhere in the world and may also be due to the fact that the Earth is now orbiting through a swarm of space debris. Many people in Germany have noticed the fireballs, said Werner Walter, an amateur astronomer in Mannheim who runs a Web site on unexplained astronomical phenomena and a hotline for reports on unidentified flying objects (UFO). "The last reported sighting was yesterday at 7:30 p.m. (1830 GMT) in a corridor near the border of the Netherlands," he told Reuters in a telephone interview. "This week we have had at least 15 emails and phone calls from people reporting these fireballs," he said. "Some people said it looks like something out of a science fiction horror film." In addition to a possible meteor streak, Walter said amateur and professional astronomers were considering the possibility that the blitz was the result of a "falling satellite or UFOs." "It is possible that they are UFOs, which are after all things which we cannot explain," he said. NASA's science Web site http://science.nasa.gov mentions reports of recent fireball sightings in the United States, Canada, the Netherlands, North Ireland and Japan. It includes images of the fireballs, which one man likened to a spotlight. Walter described them as "super-large, colored fireballs that shoot with the speed of lightning through the sky". However, the NASA Web site quotes meteor expert David Asher from
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman - Burns From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:18:39 -0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 11:22:04 -0500 Subject: Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman - Burns >From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:26:21 -0500 >Subject: Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:42:03 -0400 >>Subject: The Klass Letter On Friedman ><snip> >>It's my opinion that Klass was an associate "spook" for the US >>military or some other agency similar in makeup and aspirations. >>As Klass was the senior editor of one of the most respected >>aero-space magazines in the world he was stratigically placed to >>do the most damage with the credentials to imply and denigrate. >>In return I suspect that he was likely fed material-unavailable >>to other like magazines- for AW&ST making him a valuable asset >>to that magazine. A stipend was likely added to sweeten the pot. >>This deal probably escalated in content and remunerative >>benefits [possibly wheels were greased for his publications] as >>time passed. <snip> Don, Pavel EBK, Listers Just another example of the real level of interference in the research and credibility of researchers. We only see the disgusting tip of the iceberg when comes to behaviour of the likes of Klass/Clarke/Roberts and other variances of slime to numerous to mention who hangout in the corner of lists Those of you who know me well, and know of what I have had to endure at the hands of the necromancer offspring of Klass. Will know that this has made me boil mainly because Klass is not around to face the music or the lawyers certainly in the case of Stanton Friedman if previous ufological history teaches me anything. It is about time that the debunkers started acting like adults in the way the approach the subject. Or maybe its time to start having a few of these liars and libellers in court to teach them the lesson of proper and appropriate behaviour. As it stands these related stains on the blanket of ufology have been allowed to say pretty much what they have wanted without any action being taken. Something needs to be done or the behaviour, the lies, the libellers, the slander against real ufologists will continue and increase. These guys think that they can say what they like about anyone and get away with it WHY? Because they have been getting away with it. Every lie against research and researchers that is allowed to go un-challenged is a little bit more damage to the subject. Gives the debunker the chance to say something else a bit worse. Certainly I know at least one person in the UK who nearly lost there shirt over things said quite a few years ago. Maybe its about time to hurt one of these creatures in the pocket the next time they come out with something that they really should not have said. It would at least make the debunkers choose there words more carefully and maybe check a few facts out before engaging gob or fingers. Being as polite requests for proper debate don't seem to be of interest to them. As I said, we have had the curtain pulled back for a few minutes and we can see how disgusting the behaviour is behind closed doors for those of us who fall victim to this kind of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 Argentine Water Tanks Again Mysteriously Emptied From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:23:42 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 11:25:27 -0500 Subject: Argentine Water Tanks Again Mysteriously Emptied INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology November 4, 2005 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Source: CIUFOS-La Pampa (Raul Oscar Chaves) Date: November 3, 2005 ARGENTINA: WATER TANKS MYSTERIOUSLY EMPTIED ONCE MORE [Editor's Note: One of the most startling aspects of the 2002 cattle mutilation wave in Argentina was the disappearance of tremendous amounts of water from the large cisterns known as "tanques australianos" (literally, Australian tanks) in Argentina's cattle ranching communities. Entire swimming pools were drained empty in Santa Rosa, Argentina, around this same time. As a curious aside to this situation, psychic Silvia Browne, a regular guest on TV's Montel Williams Show and radio's Coast to Coast with George Noory, mentioned a year ago that a similar swimming pool draining in the USA had been brought about "by UFOs". Food for thought.-- SC] In the early morning hours of October 31, 2005, 70,000 liters of water were found to be missing from a tank habitually employed to provide livestock with water.. Miguel Garrone, who leases the "La Caba=F1a" ranch, says that the tank was filled to the maximum on Saturday evening and was found completely empty in the early morning hours of Monday. No signs of breakage or filtration were found, nor signs of moisture in its perimeter that could provide an answer to such a strange phenomenon. The livestock rancher indicated his astonishment, stressing that this is not the first time that such an event occurs in the area. The ranch is located some 15 km south of Parera, La Pampa, on Provincial Route No. 9. It is worth noting that on July 2, 2005, in a ranch belonging to Adolfo Ziegenfhus, some 4 km from Quetrequ=E9n and 12 km from Parera, another 70,000 liters of water vanished in a similar fashion -- mysteriously and at night -- without any trace ever being detected nor the existence of a leak or filtration that would justify the missing water ever being found. Some time ago, mutilated animals were also found in this region, an event that coincided with the draining of water tanks. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 Re: Passive Radar - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:07:01 -0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 13:20:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Passive Radar - Shough >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:25:52 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 21:55:44 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:52:23 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >>>Subject: Re: Passive Radar <snip> >>One personal example is >>the statements by people on the ground at the airport in Cayo >>Coco, Cuba who witnessed a red light moving low over the airport >>which caused our aircraft to abort its landing. When I spoke to >>the flight crew about the reason for the evasive actions taken >>by our pilot (was it to avoid a possible collision with a UFO?) >>they dismissed it as faulty equipment. >You mean they said it showed up on radar? When the flight crew talk of "faulty equipment" after an evasive manoeuvre this makes me think they may have been referring the onboard TACAS collision avoidance system, which issues a warning instruction when it picks up a nearby beacon. A UFO would not "show up" in that case (a phantom warning might). But maybe Peter can expand on this story. >>Toronto, ON 21 October 2005 1057Z, (0657 local EDT) Four pilots >>of two different commercial airliners reported to the Toronto >>Air Traffic Control Centre that they had observed a "shiny, >>silver object" flying at an altitude of approximately 30,000 >>feet. The object disappeared from sight heading eastward over >>Lake Ontario in a matter of seconds. The sky was clear and the >>visibility was excellent at the time. >No big deal except if it went straight up! What if it went underneath them? Or between them? Or accelerated from zero? Or crossed the entire sky on a flat trajectory? Lots of anomalous behaviour that doesn't involve "straight up". >>Canadian amateur and professional are pioneers in this new and >>growing hobby of passive radar, especially the use of a network >>of radio stations to allow them to not only to detect meteors >>and other fast moving objects in our upper atmopshere which >>ionize the air around them, like the Space Shuttle on re-entry, >>but to also determine their original trajectories in space. >To risk being a Gloomy Gus, although I am sure passive radar can >pick up ionization trails, there is no assurance that UFOs >generate them. No way can passive radar even see the meteor >"body" just its trail. Peter is just illustrating one widespread type of application of passive radar. You seem to be under the misapprehension here that passive radar needs ionisation trails to be useful - that the "body" of a UFO (whatever it is) would not be detectable unless it generates a plasma trail. This is completely wrong. Obviously tiny individual dust particles hundreds of miles away are not going to be detected by any radar, active or passive, unless they are causing plasma trails, but this is just irrelevant. As for whether UFOs do associate with plasmas: There is no assurance, you say. Well, we aren't in the business of assurances here. If we had assurance that "UFOs generate ionization trails" than we would have the sort of knowledge that would obviate all this debate. We don't, we only have evidence and inferences. There are no assurances that there are anomalous light sources optically trackable on vertical ascents into space, are there? That's why you advocate optical tracking - to provide the assurances of this. You can't offer assurances yourself, but you can and do argue the hopelessness of passive radar cover from inferences about airport radar performance with respect to UFOs can't you? Well as I've said, your inference and argument are flawed in that respect. They are also flawed here: You have to look at the best of the evidence we have, such as it is, as a gui de to future action, and there _is_ evidence that some events we presently call UFOs are associated with ionisation effects - any "assurance" is in the future, what we can hope will come from just the sort of study and experiment that you seem to want to discourage. So as it happens the long wavelengths typically exploited would make passive radar very well placed to detect ionisation of the air in connection with UFOs; but this is a side issue. Passive radar scores on other things: cheap hardware; no licensing issues; immunity to deception jamming; near-continuous update rate; efficient forward-scatter echoes due to multistatic
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 Corporate Sponsorship [was: Hall Oral History From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:30:31 -0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 13:22:18 -0500 Subject: Corporate Sponsorship [was: Hall Oral History >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 19:56:35 EST >Subject: Re: Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 22:16:18 +0000 >>Subject: Hall Oral History Project Needs Sponsors <snip> >I'll be meeting soon with some pals who represent many of the >major corporations from around the world. We get together now >and then and toss around ideas for sponsorships and charities >etc. I haven't met with them in a while but my track record for >successful campaigns is flawless. >I will mention ufology and with all the UFO related movies, tv
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 11:55:25 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 13:25:10 -0500 Subject: Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman - Boone >From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:18:39 -0000 >Subject: Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman >>From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:26:21 -0500 >>Subject: Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:42:03 -0400 >>>Subject: The Klass Letter On Friedman ><snip> >Don, Pavel EBK, Listers >Just another example of the real level of interference in the >research and credibility of researchers. We only see the >disgusting tip of the iceberg when comes to behaviour of the >likes of Klass/Clarke/Roberts and other variances of slime to >numerous to mention who hangout in the corner of lists >Those of you who know me well, and know of what I have had >to >endure at the hands of the necromancer offspring of Klass. Will >know that this has made me boil mainly because Klass is not >around to face the music or the lawyers certainly in the case of >Stanton Friedman if previous ufological history teaches me >anything. >It is about time that the debunkers started acting like adults >in the way the approach the subject. Or maybe its time to start >having a few of these liars and libellers in court to teach them >the lesson of proper and appropriate behaviour. As it stands >these related stains on the blanket of ufology have been allowed >to say pretty much what they have wanted without any action >being taken. >Something needs to be done or the behaviour, the lies, the >libellers, the slander against real ufologists will continue and >increase. >These guys think that they can say what they like about anyone >and get away with it WHY? Because they have been getting >away >with it. <snip> >Maybe its about time to hurt one of these creatures in the >pocket the next time they come out with something that they >really should not have said. <snip> >Max Burns A-freakin-men! I'm fortunate in that I have a literal army of lawyers as friends, fam, godchildren. I'm swimming in lawyers. I was pre- law in college as well. Many are top-top prosecutors, judges etc. and we discuss law and procedure every day. I must spend at least five or more hours a day in legal banter and services. Being in the arts it's a must have considering the historical exploitation of creators in the arts as well as the sciences. Don't even get me started on what happens to inventors and their patents! It's an international crisis to say the least. Skeptibunkers should be banned only if their data is coupled with hostile remarks, invalidating remarks, character assassination, and threats. It's proof positive they have no argument and considering the ever growing rebellion against today's media and government lies and threats it's a fair bet to say enough is enough. We're dealing with a subject that has ruined people's lives because they exercised their birthrights as citizens of this country and I for one won't stand for it. I know the debunking game to a 'T'. You don't want any parts of me when I'm riled up and having had to live through the riots of the 60's I'm not about to lay down for anybody. My entire life has been fighting against gangsters and government sponsored thugs, corporate monsters etc. A guy gets tired of fightin' sometimes. In all the years of studying UFOs and seeing first hand the abuse researchers, abductees, witnesses, whistleblowers and the like have gone through I've about had it with the skeptibunkers. It's healthy to have good objective research and debate to avoid some of the nonsense that occasionally springs up around this subject but the numbers speak for themselves as far as the public is concerned. UFOs are not some passing fancy. The skeptibunkers better get ready for it 'cause we're about to make it real round these parts as the kids say. I will admit, many of the lawyers I know won't touch the subject as they've worked for the government. Others won't touch it as they aren't science oriented. The criminal defense attorneys are still trying to figure out DNA. Trying to get them to fathom star travel, multi-dimensional phenomena and such is a bit much. All I can do is buy the books and DVDs and send them to the websites of the serious researchers. One big burst of hope is that during the last debate on UFOs two top Constitutional lawyers after watching some of the specials on The Learning Channel or Discovery Channel up and just declared the abduction problem and UFO air craft as real as anything else and was 'nolo contendre' as far as they were concerned. It is time to attack as harshly as we're attacked yet the opposition knows it takes money and that the majority of ufologists don't have black budget, corporate sponsorship, nor religious backing capital. Ufology has been and still is a 'David vs. Goliath' type of battle. The oppositions #1 weapon is ridicule. Not facts, but ridicule. Me, I can take ridicule coming from the tough streets of New York. I can dish out ridicule too. Matter of fact as a writer I get paid to write jokes. I can 'snap' with the best of them and in several languages at that! Yes, defamation, libel, slander should be dealt with without quarter. That goes both ways though. If as a ufologist you pepper your data with such you too should face the plank. Science and base emotions do not a mixture make. Team up, pool resources and attack, attack, attack! No matter how amusing it may be to hear or read from the media that we're 'tinfoilers' or 'space cases' remember that every culture has some weird belief they can't prove but move on those beliefs. Without weird, we wouldn't have wonder. The argument is over. UFOs are real, people are being abducted. We're being lied to by our own government
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 Arthur Exon From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 12:20:06 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 13:27:03 -0500 Subject: Arthur Exon Good Morning List All - For those of you who haven't heard... BGen (Ret) Arthur Ernest Exon, in 1960 was chief of ballistic missiles, Directorate of Operations, HQ USAFE, responsible for establishing the Jupiter for NATO in Italy and Turkey. And on a more personal note... Russ Estes, who co-authored The Abduction Enigma, Faces of the Visitors, and Spaceships of the Visitors, and who was a California documentarian, died of complications of Diabetes
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 BG Lovekin From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 12:33:26 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 13:30:07 -0500 Subject: BG Lovekin Good Morning List, All - In my search for documentation on Brigadier General Stephen Lovekin of Army National Guard Reserves (whatever that might be), I have been unable to locate a record to verify this claim. At this point all that means is that of the various resources I used, which included a telephone discussion with those at the National Guard Bureau in Washington and several on line sites that provide biographies of general officers, his name has not come up. The National Guard Bureau did say that their records are not complete prior to 1995 so there is wiggle room there. And, I will assume that Lovekin, if he was a general would know that there really isn't a National Guard Reserve (though I do believe that those who have never served with either the Army Reserve or the National Guard might not understand the difference). If anyone has had any luck in chasing down this fellow, I would appreciate knowing what has been learned. I did find the website for an attorney with this name but there is no mention of his
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 Secrecy News -- 11/04/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 12:34:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 13:32:12 -0500 Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/04/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 103 November 4, 2005 ** REGULATING DETAINEE INTERROGATION (CRS) ** WORLD LAW BULLETIN ** THANKS ** PHILIP AGEE ON AGENT IDENTITIES ** NATIONAL INFRASTRUCTURE PROTECTION PLAN (DHS) ** A HISTORY OF U.S. ARMY BANDS REGULATING DETAINEE INTERROGATION: A CRS ANALYSIS The amendment introduced by Senator John McCain to regulate the interrogation of enemy detainees and to prohibit their "cruel, degrading and inhuman treatment," which was overwhelmingly approved in the U.S. Senate on October 5 and awaits a House- Senate conference, is analyzed by the Congressional Research Service in a new report. See "Overview and Analysis of Senate Amendment Concerning Interrogation of Detainees," November 2, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/intel/RS22312.pdf Concern over U.S. policy on detainees has been galvanized worldwide most recently by a Washington Post story by Dana Priest on November 2 that revealed the existence of secret prisons operated by the Central Intelligence Agency in Eastern Europe and elsewhere. "We are told that not a single member of the Appropriations Committee and not a single member of the staff have been told by the CIA that that had been going on," said Rep. David Obey in a statement on the House floor November 3. WORLD LAW BULLETIN The World Law Bulletin is a monthly publication of the Directorate of Legal Research at the Law Library of Congress. It provides "over 500 updates on foreign law developments annually." But it only provides them to members of Congress and their staff. Like that other Library of Congress organization, the Congressional Research Service, the Directorate of Legal Research does not provide the public with direct access to its products. This ought to change. But such a change will require the permission and the direction of the Joint Committee on the Library of Congress. The Joint Committee has been notoriously reluctant to permit direct public access to CRS reports, forcing the public to adopt other means to acquire them. But the products of the Law Library such as the World Law Bulletin are closer to pure research and typically possess even less advisory content than do CRS reports, and it may therefore be easier to win official approval for their broad publication. In the meantime, a recent copy of the World Law Bulletin, from May 2005, may be found here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/wlb0505.pdf On rare occasions, the LOC Directorate of Legal Research has received permission to publish some of its other reports. The most recent case was an exhaustive 400 page study on the Hague Convention on International Child Abduction, dated June 2004, and available here (2.5 MB): http://www.loc.gov/law/public/reports/child_abduction.pdf THANKS Thanks to those Secrecy News readers who responded to our appeal in the last issue with financial support and heartening words. We'll persevere. PHILIP AGEE ON AGENT IDENTITIES Philip Agee, the renegade CIA officer whose efforts to publicly expose CIA employees working under cover around the world in the 1970s led to the enactment of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982, says he now opposes such activities and specifically disdains the disclosure of CIA officer Valerie Plame's name by senior White House officials. "I had my reasons for revealing the identities of agents and the White House had different ones," Agee said. "However, I am now categorically opposed to making their names public." Agee's remarks were quoted in the Greek newspaper To Vima tis Kiriakis on November 2, as translated by the CIA's Foreign Broadcast Information Service. NATIONAL INFRASTRUCTURE PROTECTION PLAN (DHS) The Department of Homeland Security has issued a draft National Infrastructure Protection Plan for public comment by December 5. The 175 page document, announced in the Federal Register on November 3, is intended to provide a "comprehensive, integrated national plan for the protection of critical infrastructures and key resources." A copy of the draft Plan, with instructions and a form for submitting comments, may be found on this page: http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dhs/index.html The document is fairly dense and its precise import is a little hard to discern. Rick Blum of the advocacy coalition OpenTheGovernment.org pointed to a table on page 65 where, under the heading "Privacy and Constitutional Freedoms," it reads "No actions under this category." "I think that sums it up," he quipped. A HISTORY OF U.S. ARMY BANDS Several months ago (05/19/05), Secrecy News published an item about military bands that some readers considered to be insufficiently enthusiastic. "I have just two words for you," wrote one gentleman. "Glenn Miller." By way of penance, we offer a newly revised and astonishingly detailed History of U.S. Army Bands, published for use in courses offered by the U.S. Army. "The first mention of a military musical organization used in the connection of battle in the United States Army occurred at the celebration held after Ethan Allen and his Green Mountain Boys captured Fort Ticonderoga on 10 May 1775." "A fife and Drum Corps performed at this celebration." See "A History of U.S. Army Bands," U.S. Army Element, School of Music, Norfolk, VA, updated October 2005: http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/armybands.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 Re: Corporate Sponsorship - Boone From: Geg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 14:31:53 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 15:18:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Corporate Sponsorship - Boone Hi Listers, Does anyone have a list of all the non profit UFO groups? If so please forward. I've gotten some pretty fast responses from colleagues in the corporate world who think it would be a hoot to delve into the UFO arena. UFOs are BIG money in entertainment it seems :) Problem is the people doing the grunt work don't get the recognition. Also, a friend wanted to emphasize the importance of you all working as a group and not frayed into individualism. Also, those who produce books, or have been published, documentaries etc. hold on to your hats. The only way this is going to work is if you researchers can bury the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Watson From: Nigel Watson <nigelwatson1.nul> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 19:43:00 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 15:42:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Watson >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 13:39:00 EDT >Subject: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? >I'm sitting here at my desk looking at the ever growing row of >DVDs and noticed the the only UFO based movies so far collected >are: >The Day The Earth Stood Still by Robert Wise, Roswell by Paul >Davids and Close Encounters Of The Third Kind by Spielberg. <snip> Hi, Readers of the List might like to read the following articles by Martin Kottmeyer on the subject of UFO movies and their impact on ufology: Space Bug A Boo Boo at: http://www.talkingpix.co.uk/Article_Spacebugaboo.html Spawn of Inseminoid at: http://www.talkingpix.co.uk/Spawn.html and his classic Gauche Encounters (Bad films and the UFO Mythos) at: http://www.talkingpix.co.uk/ArticleGaucheEncounters.html In my article Flying Saucer Visions I note that: The visions of filmmakers and UFO witnesses have to varying degrees consciously and unconsciously articulated with varying degrees of success the concerns of humanity. There is a two-way interaction between film art and UFO observations. Unfortunately ufologists have tended to ignore the influence of the cinema on our perception of the UFO phenomenon whilst filmmakers have largely ignored the wealth of material within the UFO literature that could bring new insights into the human condition onto the cinema screen. See it at: http://www.talkingpix.co.uk/Flying%20Saucer%20Movies.html Readers can also read about this topic in 'UFOs and Ufology' and my booklet Seeing and Believing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 Re: Passive Radar - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:04:08 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 15:44:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Passive Radar - Smith >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:07:01 -0000 >Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:25:52 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >>Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>No big deal except if it went straight up! >What if it went underneath them? Or between them? Or accelerated >from zero? Or crossed the entire sky on a flat trajectory? Lots >of anomalous behaviour that doesn't involve "straight up". Okay. >>To risk being a Gloomy Gus, although I am sure passive radar can >>pick up ionization trails, there is no assurance that UFOs >>generate them. No way can passive radar even see the meteor >>"body" just its trail. >Peter is just illustrating one widespread type of application of >passive radar. You seem to be under the misapprehension here >that passive radar needs ionisation trails to be useful - that >the "body" of a UFO (whatever it is) would not be detectable >unless it generates a plasma trail. This is completely wrong. >Obviously tiny individual dust particles hundreds of miles away >are not going to be detected by any radar, active or passive, >unless they are causing plasma trails, but this is just >irrelevant. Well, I must have misunderstood/misrembered the technical reports I read. If you say that the passive radar is really detecting the meteor bodies thermselves, then I will go along with you until I read otherwise when I get a chance to look again at the literature. >As for whether UFOs do associate with plasmas: There is no >assurance, you say. Well, we aren't in the business of >assurances here. If we had assurance that "UFOs generate >ionization trails" than we would have the sort of knowledge that >would obviate all this debate. We don't, we only have evidence >and inferences. It moot if passive radar doesn't need ionization trails to see objects at very high altitudes. I can see how such trails aren't needed for nearby objects. I think I misunderstood the actual size of the meteors being "seen". If all they can see are the ionization trails, but they deduce it is caused by a tiny meteor, then that makes sense. >There are no assurances that there are anomalous light sources >optically trackable on vertical ascents into space, are there? >That's why you advocate optical tracking - to provide the >assurances of this. All I can say is that numerous witness cases show such lights going vertically. Optically, we have a alot of support for UFO behavior that can happen. Ionization is less "knowable" given we can't see these (with a certainty at least). >You can't offer assurances yourself, but you >can and do argue the hopelessness of passive radar cover from >inferences about airport radar performance with respect to UFOs >can't you? I didn't say it was hopeless to use passive radar. I am just saying you need some hope and lots of money. >Well as I've said, your inference and argument are >flawed in that respect. They are also flawed here: You have to >look at the best of the evidence we have, such as it is, as a >gui de to future action, and there _is_ evidence that some >events we presently call UFOs are associated with ionisation >effects - any "assurance" is in the future, what we can hope >will come from just the sort of study and experiment that you >seem to want to discourage. Yes, a little evidence does exist. I don't want to discourage. It would be great to get a broad swath of data from every kind of instrument at eveyr frequency. But who will fund this effort? Its always been out of our own pockets. >So as it happens the long wavelengths typically exploited would >make passive radar very well placed to detect ionisation of the >air in connection with UFOs; but this is a side issue. Passive >radar scores on other things: cheap hardware; no licensing >issues; immunity to deception jamming; near-continuous update >rate; efficient forward-scatter echoes due to multistatic >architecture; opportunity for multi-aspect RCS analysis, 3-D
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 4 Re: Gill Sighting - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 20:16:32 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 15:47:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Gill Sighting - Rimmer >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:15:51 -0600 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:12:54 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>I think you must be confusing me with the other John Rimmer. I >>can't ever recall calling Americans "gullible UFO believers", >>although of course a goodly number are, as indeed are far too >>many of the inhabitants of my own fair islands. >>Perhaps you could trawl through my hundreds of thousands of >>posts on this auspicious List, and quote the one you had in >>mind? >This is indeed hilarious. I have been reading Magonia probably >longer than anybody who doesn't edit the magazine, and the >ridicule directed against American ufologists - synonymous with >gullible twits - is one of the publication's principal and >recurrent themes. It is certainly true that Jerry has been reading MUFOB/Magonia for longer than anyone on Earth. However, he seems to be surviving the experience quite well. An inspiration to us all. >So much so, in fact, that I've pointed on this List to the >(unconscious or otherwise) anti-Americanism implicit in this >strange obsession. When I've mentioned the matter, Magonians >have responded only with a feeble and notably convictionless >show of indignation. The very mention of "American ufologist" >(aka "rude colonial") is sufficient occasion for rounds of >hearty Blimpish laughter at the Skeptics Club in the Pelican >Pub. I have on many occasions commented on the difference in approach between British and American ufologists. It is clear that American ufology is much more ETH-oriented than British ufology, at least amongst the active figures. I think that this is because there is perhaps a less critical attitude to witness testimony in the US than there is in Britain, which may have something to do with national attitudes. I think this is a subject worth discussing. I do not regard it as anti- Americanism. I also think there is a very important difference between sceptical attitudes on either side of the Atlantic. As I have remarked previously, most British sceptical ufologists have 'risen through the ranks', i.e. have started off assuming the ETH was a valid explanation for UFO reports, but the more they have found out, the more sceptical they have become. On the other hand, most American ufological skeptics seem to have come from the subject from the outside, like Klass and Menzel. I think this is a matter of some interest, and worthy of discussion. >(I believe the Skeptics alternates nights with the Drones Club, >if my information is correct, or at least occupies an adjoining >room in the establishment. I have no information, however, on >whether there are food fights at the Skeptics Club, or whether >members include Gussie Fink-Nottle, Bingo Little, Catsmeat >Potter- Pirbright, and Bertie Wooster; if so, they have not >published under their own names in the pelicanist literature.) Indeed, all splendid chaps who enliven our evenings with their witty repartee, accurate bread-roll throwing, and always ready to steal a policeman's helmet on Boat Race night (for which or regular pub in Putney is conveniently placed). Anyone who wants to can tootle along this coming Sunday 6th Nov., to The Railway, just by Putney railway station, and join in the merriment. We have over they years had a number of visitors from the USA, who seem to have enjoyed themselves and not noticed our wicked anti- Americanism. >>Tootle pip >Which leads me to believe that since you speak the language, you
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 5 Arthur Exon Death From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 17:29:05 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:08:41 -0500 Subject: Arthur Exon Death >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 12:20:06 EST >Subject: Arthur Exon Good Morning List All - For those of you who haven't heard... BGen (Ret) Arthur Ernest Exon, in 1960 was chief of ballistic missiles, Directorate of Operations, HQ USAFE, responsible for establishing the Jupiter for NATO in Italy and Turkey died in July. Somehow those important last words were cut off the message I
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 5 Re: Gill Sighting - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:59:22 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:10:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Gill Sighting - Clark >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 20:16:32 +0000 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:15:51 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:12:54 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting Sigh, John, >I have on many occasions commented on the difference in approach >between British and American ufologists. It is clear that >American ufology is much more ETH-oriented than British ufology, >at least amongst the active figures. That is pretty simplistic, and it is also why discussion with you guys is always an exercise in frustration. The "difference in approach between British and American ufologists" is that the former (at least the pelicanist division) are almost entirely theory- driven, while American ufologists are pragmatists more focused on investigation and documentation than on the sort of airy, lit-crit speculation and ex cathedra prouncement that fill the pages of Magonia. I'd take one case study from a James McDonald or a Walt Webb or a Brad Sparks or a Bill Weitzel or a Jennie Zeidman or a Ted Bloecher - virtually none, incidentally, even mentioning the ETH in the briefest passing - over any hundred Magonian excursions into windy guesswork any day. What sane observer looking for substantive information on which to arrive at an informed conclusion wouldn't? That is also why you are so obsessed with the ETH, because you can't imagine that we aren't as theory-obsessed as you are. I would say, at the most conservative estimate that I can possibly offer, that 99 out of 100 references to the ETH I encounter in my life as a ufologist are expressed by Magonians. As I need to point out once again for Listfolk if not for you since you apparently aren't paying attention, an extensive review of the literature has shown that there is relatively little serious discussion of the ETH in the UFO literature. For specifics, I refer Listfolk to my entry/essay "Extraterrestrial Hypothesis and Ufology" in The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd ed. I am willing to wager that a considerable percentage of ETH discussion in the past 25 years of ufology has been in Magonia's pages. Magonians are uniquely bonkers on the subject. In my life as an anomalist, my interest for some years has not been in the ETH but in other areas, about which I have written a number of essays by now, conducted a considerable amount of research, and devoted much thought. Thus, I find your ETH obsession - it is you, not I, who bring it up, it often feels like, at every other breath - a tremendous bore and distraction, frankly. Or maybe the idea is to make the debate so tedious that you'll lull all readers into deep slumber and at last Magonians, as the last ones still awake, can finally declare triumph. >I think that this is >because there is perhaps a less critical attitude to witness >testimony in the US than there is in Britain, which may have >something to do with national attitudes. I think this is a >subject worth discussing. I do not regard it as anti- >Americanism. Spare us the transparent fiction of a "less critical attitude to witnesses." In fact, I see no evidence of that at all. What I do see on your end is simple, endless repetitive rejection of anything you don't want to hear. Witness or witnesses report a structured craftlike object with extraordinary performance characteristics, and all you need to declare is that he, she, or they couldn't have seen any such thing and thus were in error. Convention wisdom wins, and discussion ends. That has nothing to do with "critical attitudes" and everything to do with the sort of dogmatic orthodoxy that David Hufford wittily calls the "tradition of disbelief." Nor does it have anything to do with psychology or sociology, which - employed as something other than a rhetorical device by lay debunkers - would also shed light as much on rejection of heretical anomalous claims as on acceptance of them. But rejection is not an area so-called psychosocial ufologists have any interest in exploring. At one time on this List, we were treated to the amusing and revealing spectacle of pelicanists actually _denying_ that ridicule has figured prominently and influentially in the evolution of the UFO controversy. Ridicule as a major element of the psychological and social response to UFO reports is a subject in which Magonians have no interest and which figures not at all in the publication's contents, functioning like the elephant everyone pretends not to notice sitting in the living room. Another difference between American ufologists and British pelicanists is that the former have a deeper appreciation of the complexity, phenomenological and cultural, of the issues we deal with. We try to tie our ideas to evidence that we can demonstrate (such as, most recently; the empirically demonstrable meaning of the phrase "mothership" in popular discourse), and we make no claims to certain knowledge we don't possess. In other words, we just don't automatically press the "believe" button the way pelicanists robotically press the "disbelieve" button. That is why you are unable to communicate your beliefs in any persuasive way to those who don't already share them. That's why you are left to blame others for their skepticism, and falsely to judge them gullible and stupid when in fact they're too smart, experienced, and critical- minded to believe you. And their attitudes, whatever they are, toward the visiting spacecraft with which you are so obsessed have nothing to do with it. It's just that they know the difference between a good argument and actual evidence as opposed to their opposites, and you don't appear to. In reality, as anyone knows, witnesses tend to get some things right, while they sometimes get other things wrong. Every pragmatic ufologist knows that and takes care to bring that into consideration. The same can be said of ball-lightning researchers, except that you would never use arguments against the existence of BL that you employ against the existence of UFOs. Yet BL, more than UFOs, is something whose claim to existence is almost wholly dependent on eyewitness testimony. As the Australian plasma physicist John Lowke, a world-class authority on the phenomenon of BL, says in defense of his belief: "Though... I have never seen the phenomenon personally, I find that there is no question that ball lightning exists. I have talked to six eyewitnesses... and think there is no reasonable doubt as to the authenticity of their observations. Furthermore, the reports are all remarkably similar and have common features with the hundreds of observations that appear in the literature." So, it turns out, your real problem - unless Magonia is suddenly going to turn on BL as fiercely as it did on UFOs - is not with eyewitness testimony but with heretical perception. >I also think there is a very important difference between >sceptical attitudes on either side of the Atlantic. As I have >remarked previously, most British sceptical ufologists have >'risen through the ranks', i.e. have started off assuming the >ETH was a valid explanation for UFO reports, but the more they >have found out, the more sceptical they have become. On the >other hand, most American ufological skeptics seem to have come >from the subject from the outside, like Klass and Menzel. I >think this is a matter of some interest, and worthy of >discussion. I can't imagine it would be a very interesting discussion, since the conclusions are drearily the same and as question-begging. There isn't a penny's worth of difference between Magonia pelicanists and debunker pelicanists. Same wing-flapping, same avian squawking. Same desire to affirm conventional wisdom and to avoid heterodox positions at any and all cost. And the same psychosocial forces - prominently the disbelief tradition - leading the march. And, by the way, in many cases the same claim to movement from initial belief to subsequent disbelief. And now let's remind Listfolk of the posting you are again neglecting to address or even acknowledge. It's here: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/oct/m28-031.shtml Everything you need to know about why Magonians are fundamentally unserious is outlined in Greg Sandow's post. No
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 5 Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 21:12:40 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:14:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Fleming >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 19:30:39 EST >Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found <snip> >I won't even lower myself to attack Klass. That would be a >validation of what he did. Sure Ufology can use some good >counterpoints to keep an even keel but not end up in the gutter >like some politicals. Karl Rove could have learned a thing or two from Klass. Klass defamed someone to an important group of people without the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 5 Friday Phenomena UFO Conspiracy? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:21:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:21:38 -0500 Subject: Friday Phenomena UFO Conspiracy? Source: KLAS-TV - Las Vegas, Nevada, USA http://www.klastv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4076714&nav=168Y Nov 5, 2005 Friday Phenomena: UFO Conspiracy? George Knapp Investigative Reporter Is there a government conspiracy to hide UFOs? Most of us have heard about the infamous Roswell incident in which a flying saucer supposedly crashed in the desert of New Mexico. Some UFO researchers say Roswell wasn't the only UFO to crash. In fact, they say there have been dozens. Some of the world's best-known UFO speakers are in Las Vegas this weekend for a conference devoted to crashed discs. The I- Team's George Knapp has more in our Friday Phenomena report Roswell New Mexico, 1947, something strange crashed in the desert. The military at first said it was a flying saucer from outer space. The story was then changed to a weather balloon, and it's been changed a few more times since. Researchers who've spent decades looking into the case still believe the first story, and, they suspect, there have been many other similar crashes. Ryan Wood, UFO crash researcher, said, "The best cases are the ones where we have multiple witnessess, some physical evidence, and multiple investigations by a variety of people over a long period of time." Wood has written a new book about an estimated 74 UFO crashes, including one that allegedly occurred near Kingman, Arizona in the early 50s. This weekend, 16 of the world's best-known UFO researchers are in Las Vegas to unveil their latest findings and argue about the evidence. The Third Annual UFO rash Retrieval Conference at the Embassy Suites doesn't only look for evidence of crashes but for answers about what happened to the debris. Wood and many other researchers believes there is a secret government organization - - Majic or Majestic 12 - that keeps a lid on the story and the debris, some of which allegedly ended up at Nevada's Area 51 military base. Ryan Wood admits that some of these stories might be made up, either by oddballs or by disinformation agents. Colonel John Alexander (Ret.) said, "I've talked to some of the most senior people in government and have found no evidence there was even one." Former Army intelligence Col. John Alexander, with extensive contacts in military circles and an interest in UFOs, says he can't buy the idea that there have been so many crashes. "It seems inconceivable to me that this hyper-advanced technology came a trillion miles to crash in our backyard once, let alone that this stuff keeps falling down." Alexander acknowledges that there is a lot of interest in UFOs among high-ranking military and intelligence officials and that information is exchanged because he was one of them. But it's personal, not institutional. Wood says just because ETs are more advanced doesn't mean they're infallible, so crashes could occur. Mainly, he says, people should find out for themselves by hearing the experts. Wood says, "You can judge for yourself whether you think it's baloney or the truth." As a side note, one of the best documented UFO crash cases is from Cape Girardeu, Missouri, the hometown of a certain Eyewitness News anchorman.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 5 Here Goes Another Confession From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:35:41 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:35:41 -0500 Subject: Here Goes Another Confession Source: The Sun News - Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, USA http://tinyurl.com/azzvs Fri, Nov. 04, 2005 Here Goes Another Confession Issac J. Bailey A Different Perspective I have another confession to make, though am doing it (a bit) reluctantly because my first confession - that I drive the speed limit in the left lane - generated months worth of e-mails and voice mail messages. But I'll be brave and just confess: I believe in aliens... or at least the concept of aliens. I don't know if they are little green men from Mars or purple dinosaurs from Pluto. And I don't know if they would befriend us like the one in E.T. or want to exterminate us like those in my all-time favorite movie, Independence Day. In our ever-expanding universe, it makes sense to assume that we aren't alone. Now let me exit stage right and give the floor - and a share of the ridicule - to Suzanne Van Atten, a frequent visitor from Atlanta, and Keith Ellison, who works at the Surfside Beach Wal- Mart Supercenter. Neither Van Atten nor Ellison necessarily believes in aliens, but they both saw something recently that has friends laughing at them. They saw a UFO over the Atlantic. Both described seeing an unexplained light show about two weeks ago. A similar sighting was reported a couple of years ago. Officials and experts then said such sightings could be caused by lightning storms or military exercises that involve the use of flares. I don't want to know the official explanation from two weeks ago. When it comes to aliens, the less you know, the more intriguing. "There were four bright orange lights, all in a row. Then a light on the left faded and a light on the right became visible," is how Van Atten remembers seeing it from a Garden City Beach balcony. Ellison said he and his wife saw the lights as they drove over the bridge in Socastee. "I told people I worked with when I got to work and no one believed me," Ellison said via e-mail. "It was kind of funny in a way cause associates were walking around with styrofoam hats with wires poking out or they were wearing masks and throwing [flying discs], shouting, 'Watch out, it's a flying saucer!' But then again, I felt kind of humiliated." Van Atten, a 20-year veteran journalist who was in town writing a travel book, at first hesitated before responding to my questions. She sent the newspaper an e-mail titled "I'm Not Crazy!" wondering if others had seen the lights. "Obviously it is an unidentified flying object to me because I don't know what it is," she said. "It is sort of embarrassing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 5 Life as We Do Not Know It From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:40:42 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:40:42 -0500 Subject: Life as We Do Not Know It Source: The Seattle Times - Seattle, Washington, USA http://tinyurl.com/d4cby Friday, November 4, 2005 Book Review Life as We Do Not Know It: Making astrobiology less alien to laymen By Fred Bortz Special to The Seattle Times Peter Ward's latest offering, "Life as We Do Not Know It: The NASA Search for (and Synthesis of) Alien Life" (Viking, 288 pp., $25.95), aims to unravel science's most profound questions: What is life, and where does it exist? Despite its weighty subject matter and some original scientific proposals, this challenging volume is eminently readable. Ward is the author or co-author of several previous books, including (with Donald Brownlee) "Rare Earth" and "The Life and Death of Planet Earth, " and his comfortable style delivers ample doses of personal warmth and humor along with a wealth of information and dazzling speculation. As a leader in the growing field of astrobiology, which investigates processes on other worlds that could lead to or result from Earthlike life, Ward, a professor at the University of Washington, draws on the work of colleagues in the 15 research institutions that operate worldwide under the umbrella of the NASA Astrobiology Institute. The book is a fascinating guided tour that begins in the varied environments and laboratories of our own planet (including some where researchers are creating synthetic life) and then proceeds to the most likely and a few unlikely bodies of the solar system where evidence of past or present life may be found. Over the past 30 years, scientists have discovered microbes that flourish in Earth's hottest, coldest and harshest conditions. These "extremophiles" prove that life arises and thrives in a much broader range of environments than people once thought possible =97 not unlike those on Mars or elsewhere in the solar system. Conditions on Earth favor DNA and carbon-based life, but astrobiologists know that there are non-Earthlike variations of the DNA scheme. They also envision life founded on different chemistries, such as silicon-based molecules called silanes, which might flourish in unearthly realms. Approximately half of the book is devoted to examining how and where such life might arise today or have arisen earlier in the history of the solar system. Ward leaves no solar-system world unvisited, though he quickly dismisses most of them. He allots a number of pages to the possibility of life floating high in the sulfuric-acid-laced clouds of Venus. But as expected, Mars gets the most attention outside of Earth. The Red Planet may have once had a climate suitable for the evolution of simple multi-cellular carbon-based life. Today, bacterial life beneath its surface is conceivable, and ancient Martian bacterial life would certainly have left its signature in the rocks. Scientists' favorite place to look for current life beyond Earth is beneath the ice covering a global ocean on Jupiter's moon Europa. Ward argues that a better bet would be Saturn's largest satellite, Titan, with its thick atmosphere and hydrocarbon lakes. In perhaps the book's most vivid section, he describes an astronaut's imagined view of one of Titan's craters: "a phantasmagoric wonderland of hydrocarbon fluid, ice, sludge, and rock, all arrayed in frozen glory ... Steaming geysers of methane venting from the warmer interior instantly freeze and then fall as black organic snow ... " That rich and dynamic environment might be just what life needs. Astrobiologists like Ward imagine carbon-based Titan life with either ammonia or water as its vital solvent. The moon's extreme conditions might even favor silicon-based life. He proposes sending a biochemist there to find out. Though such a trip is certainly not on NASA's immediate agenda, Ward's suggestion makes sense for the long term. Before that, astronauts will return to the Earth's moon and then head for Mars. Both missions will seek signs of life's beginnings. Geologists on the moon will collect ancient pieces of Earth and other planets, transported there by asteroid bombardment during the earliest epoch of the solar system's history. Ward's choice for the first scientist on Mars would be a paleontologist who could dig up a few fossils. By the time readers finish this captivating book, they will have no doubt that he wishes he were young enough to sign up for the job. Several of physicist Fred Bortz's previous and upcoming books for young readers (www.fredbortz.com) discuss past discoveries and the future of astrobiology.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 5 Public Split On Alien Invaders & Spooky Specters From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:47:13 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:47:13 -0500 Subject: Public Split On Alien Invaders & Spooky Specters Source: SETI Institute - Mountain View, California, USA http://tinyurl.com/cgsa7 November 3, 2005 Public Split on Alien Invaders and Spooky Specters by Seth Shostak Senior Astronomer SETI Institute Monday night was Halloween, so I spent a couple of hours dosing the neighborhood kids with carbohydrate treats. Most of the diminutive petitioners at my door were intent on being scary, and therefore dressed themselves as ghouls, goblins, or politicians. I enjoyed these juvenile impersonators, but it never occurred to me to believe that these kids were mimicking real entities (excepting, of course, the politicians). However, my skeptical mood seems to be out of synch with that of my neighbors. A just- released Gallup poll notes that 37% of Americans believe that =93houses can be haunted.=94 Our counterparts in Canada and Britain share this level of belief in a demon-infested world, and roughly a quarter of those surveyed reckon that folks can hear from, or communicate mentally, with the dead. Neither the decided dearth of exhibits on haunting science at the local museum, nor the absence of refereed journals on ectoplasmic studies in the university library seem to matter. The lack of celebrity interviews with dead people in Time or Newsweek is irrelevant. A large chunk of the populace believes =96 and that=92s that. Now you could contend that all of this is pretty harmless. Honestly, if people like to think that spirits are bunking down in the condo next door, so what? The housing market=92s still strong. But this disposition to superstition gets people=92s knickers in a twist when it brushes up against science, for it=92s here that credulity eases from the supernatural to the pseudoscientific. According to Gallup, a quarter of Americans think that astrology can affect people=92s lives. The Astronomical Society of the Pacific, noting the work of Jon Miller of the International Center for the Study of Scientific Literacy at the Chicago Academy of Sciences, reports that one in five Americans isn=92t sure whether the Sun revolves around the Earth or the other way =91round. Now if you=92re an astronomer, these things rankle, because they ignore the 500 years of sweat-equity we=92ve expended to unravel the physics of the solar system. And even aside from this blatant disregard for the efforts of academe, you might legitimately argue that it=92s a bad idea to have astrologers exert control in =96 say =96 the White House or the Tsar=92s palace. However, there was some good news (at least for scientists) in the latest Gallup sampling. When asked =93do you believe that extraterrestrial beings have visited Earth at some time in the past,=94 51% said no. That fraction has risen. In a 1990 poll, 41% said no, and in 2001, 38%. Is the difference significant? If you did your statistics homework in college, you=92ll recall that, in a random sample, the error is roughly the reciprocal of the square root of the number of people polled. Now that=92s a tough sentence to parse, but put it this way: Gallup polled about one thousand people. The square root of 1,000 is 32, and the reciprocal is 1/32, or 3%. That=92s the error the pollster quotes. So the point is that the fraction of people who are skeptical about alien visitation (51%) is really significantly more than the roughly 40% who gave this answer in past polls. Now I remind you that this bit of math assumes that the group of people polled was random, which is to say typical and representative. It=92s dead easy to find a non-random sample, and get results sure to elevate your eyebrows. Rob McConnell, who hosts a radio show called =93The X Zone,=94 recently did Internet surveys on two questions: do you believe in ghosts, and did American astronauts really walk on the moon. To the first question, 77% of the respondents said yes, and to the second (to which an astounding 19 thousand people replied) 93% said no! Get this: the respondents believe in ghosts, but don=92t think NASA put people on the moon. On the one hand you have uncorroborated eyewitness testimony about noises in the attic, and on the other a decade of effort by tens of thousands of engineers and scientists, endless rocket hardware, thousands of photos, and 840 pounds of moon rock. It=92s almost enough to make you think that the =93X Zone=94 failed to query a random sample. These sorts of polls, which invariably show the shortcomings of Homo sapiens=92 ability to make deductions based on repeatable, objective evidence, are nothing new. Indeed, they may be difficult to eradicate, since, as children, we fabricate intuitive theories to deal with the unobservable. This explains much of the world for us, but also, as an English astronomer pointed out to me, leads us to assume that it is inhabited by magical forces =96 a point of view that the polls continue to reveal as highly ingrained. While ghostly ghouls and chats with departed relatives are one thing, scientific proof of a major new phenomena is something else. So I=92m trying to look on the bright side. Despite years of =93The X Files=94 and Fox specials, the public seems less prone to believe that aliens are visiting Earth. That, at least, suggests
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 5 Why The UFO-Detector Is Important From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:54:31 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:54:31 -0500 Subject: Why The UFO-Detector Is Important Source: American Antigravity http://tinyurl.com/b7u5k 10/28/2005 Why the UFO-Detector Is Important By Tim Ventura You're walking out to the car, expecting yet another uneventful trip to work. It's winter, and the sky is dark: making the light in the sky stand out against a background of stars. Something about it seems out of place - it shimmers a bit, and seems to dance in front of your eyes. Your imagination jumps at the possibilities - is this is? Could it be some kind of alien ship? Is this going to be your UFO experience? After a second, your rational mind takes over, and comes up with a list of easy explanations: it could be Venus, or landing lights at the nearby airport, or maybe it's just a star after all.... What if you knew? Dr. Ron Milione, a PhD Electrical Engineer specializing in military communications systems, believes that he has the answer...and for $375, you can have it to. I like Ron - he's an easy-going fellow, and despite his technical knowledge and impressive credentials, he takes an easygoing attitude towards life that's hard not to agree with. He works by day at BAE Systems as an Engineering Project Manager on Combat-ID Systems, moonlights after-hours and weekends with a variety of interesting projects, and the occassional alt-science, UFO, or paranormal convention. Two weeks ago he sent out a few photos of a recent trip to Montaulk, and this week he's been talking with the legendary John Hutchison about building a scale-replication of the Philadelphia Experiment. The reason he built the detector should be obvious - it's a magnetometer-based design to measure an EM signature and record it on a chart for later analysis. The idea draws from his daytime experience in engineering, and after-hours passion for alt-science & the paranormal. He's described the workings of the device pretty well online, and in all honesty it's not the technology that makes it impressive - nor is it the application. What makes this device profound is the fact that it has the potential to once and for all end the debate about UFOs. Over the last 50 years, the UFO phenomenon has evolved into an all-out brawl between mainstream science & advocates of UFOs as being vehicles from another world. Ask either side what the truth is, and they'll pull out reams of paper to show you that they're correct - congressional reports citing mass-hysteria, Majestic documents describing ET-autopsies, and psychological tests conclusively demonstrating that UFO-abductees are either sane or crazy, depending on who sponsored the tests. At the end of the day, though, all that we have is paper - making UFOs into a modern pseudo-religion that becomes "an issue of faith". UFOs aren't about faith, though: If they're here, we should be able to detect them. The skeptics would say that we already do detect them - our imagination turns clouds, stars, planets, and shadows into alien craft that never existed in the first place. It's back to faith, because all of our current methods of UFO-spotting rest on subjective methods of analysis that seem unreponsive to any argument either for or against. So in reality, it's possible that Ron Milione's done more than just build a detector - this device could also be a tie-breaker, because the magnetometer is the beginning of a new type of measurement that relies on the EM-characteristics of a craft, and not just the reported shape, speed, or other arguable factors. Nobody's going to argue a reading like 16.56 megahertz, and if a value like that repeatedly shows up in UFO sightings but never appears from aircraft, then we can take this measurement as a means to both understand how they work, and how to refine the equipment to tell us more. Milione's done something else as well: he's found a simple device that both critics and advocates can agree on. If witness testimony is unreliable, then let's base our observations on multi-spectrum analysis to find discrepancies that the naked eye might not see. Also, it's equally possible that if UFOs don't exist, this tool will serve as a means to counteract overly- imaginative perceptions. Not every light in the sky is an ET mother-ship, and knowing that something's not a UFO could be equally as important as knowing that something else is. The current model uses a chart-recorded, but Milione's already talking about the possibility of building smaller, lighter units that could display an actual image on a screen through a laptop interface. Would be worth a thousand bucks to buy a tool for detecting, photographing, and performing spectral analysis on UFOs? You bet! Compared the kind of camera-equipment that die- hard UFO buffs often purchase, that's chump-change to open up a completely new spectrum for analysis. Even more interesting are the long-term possibilities: including linking a series of these small, inexpensive detectors on the Internet to not only detect UFOs, but track their movements over large areas, and report trends encompassing large geographies. Picture the same thing that it takes months to plot using today's spreadsheets, displayed in a real-time map online. The technology for large-scale shared-processing projects like this are already here, thanks to innovative software design like the kind used in SETI at Home or the massively-parallel online cancer research project. Taking this even a step farther out, and you begin to realize that if you can capture & analyze EM signatures, then it also means that you can not only detect UFOs, but classify them into types by their unique electromagnetic characteristics. Who knows what something like this could tell us? Would it turn out that most of those lights in the sky that we're questioning really are just stars, or will it turn out that ET is far more prevalent in our airspace than we ever guessed? It's been said that some questions were never meant to be answered, but I don't think that this is one of them. Depending on the data, it could mean bad news for Prophet Yahweh, good news for the Disclosure Project, or a final validation for the thousands of abductees
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 5 Do Space Aliens Have Souls? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 08:06:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 08:06:39 -0500 Subject: Do Space Aliens Have Souls? Source: Catholic News Service - Washington, DC, USA http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0506301.htm Vatican Letter Nov-4-2005 Do Space Aliens Have Souls? Inquiring Minds Can Check Jesuit's Book By Carol Glatz Catholic News Service VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Galaxy-gazing scientists surely wonder about what kind of impact finding life or intelligent beings on another planet would have on the world. But what sort of effect would it have on Catholic beliefs? Would Christian theology be rocked to the core if science someday found a distant orb teeming with little green men, women or other intelligent forms of alien life? Would the church send missionaries to spread the Gospel to aliens? Could aliens even be baptized? Or would they have had their own version of Jesus and have already experienced his universal or galactic plan of salvation? Curious Catholics need not be space buffs to want answers to these questions and others when they pick up a 48-page booklet by a Vatican astronomer. Through the British-based Catholic Truth Society, U.S. Jesuit Brother Guy Consolmagno has penned his response to what he says are questions he gets from the public "all the time" when he gives talks on his work with the Vatican Observatory. Titled "Intelligent Life in the Universe? Catholic Belief and the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligent Life," the pocket- sized booklet is the latest addition to the society's "Explanations Series," which explores Catholic teaching on current social and ethical issues. Brother Consolmagno told Catholic News Service that the whole question of how Catholicism would hold up if some form of life were discovered on another planet has piqued people's curiosity "for centuries." He said his aim with the booklet was to reassure Catholics "that you shouldn't be afraid of these questions" and that "no matter what we learn, it doesn't invalidate what we already know" and believe. In other words, scientific study and discovery and religion enrich one another, not cancel out each other. If new forms of life were to be discovered or highly advanced beings from outer space were to touch down on planet Earth, it would not mean "everything we believe in is wrong," rather, "we're going to find out that everything is truer in ways we couldn't even yet have imagined," he said. The Book of Genesis describes two stories of creation, and science, too, has more than one version of how the cosmos may have come into being. "However you picture the universe being created, says Genesis, the essential point is that ultimately it was a deliberate, loving act of a God who exists outside of space and time," Brother Consolmagno said in his booklet. "The Bible is divine science, a work about God. It does not intend to be physical science" and explain the making of planets and solar systems, the Jesuit astronomer wrote. Pope John Paul II once told scientists, "Truth does not contradict truth," meaning scientific truths will never eradicate religious truths and vice versa. "What Genesis says about creation is true. God did it; God willed it; and God loves it. When science fills in the details of how God did it, science helps get a flavor of how rich and beautiful and inventive God really is, more than even the writer of Genesis could ever have imagined," Brother Consolmagno wrote. The limitless universe "might even include other planets with other beings created by that same loving God," he added. "The idea of there being other races and other intelligences is not contrary to traditional Christian thought. "There is nothing in Holy Scripture that could confirm or contradict the possibility of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe," he wrote. Brother Consolmagno said that, like scientists, people of faith should not be afraid of saying "I just don't know." Human understanding "is always incomplete. It is crazy to underestimate God's ability to create in depths of ways that we will never completely understand. It is equally dangerous to think that we understand God completely," he said in his booklet. He told CNS that his booklet tries to show "the fun of thinking" about what it would mean if God had created more than life on Earth. Such speculation "is very worthwhile if it makes us reflect on things we do know and have taken for granted," he said. He said asking such questions as "Would aliens have souls?" or "Does the salvation of Christ apply to them?" helps one "appreciate what it means for us to have a soul" and helps one better "recognize what the salvation of Christ means to us." Brother Consolmagno said he tried to show in the booklet that "the church is not afraid of science" and that Catholics, too, should be unafraid and confident in confronting all types of speculation, no matter how "far out" and spacey it may be. For science fiction fans, Trekkies, or telescope-toting space enthusiasts, the booklet's last chapter reveals where there are references to extraterrestrials in the Bible. Brother Consolmagno said the Bible is also replete with references to or descriptions of "nonhuman intelligent beings" who worship God. For example, he said the Scriptures talk about angels, "sons of God" who took human wives, and "heavenly beings" that "shouted for joy" when God created the earth. The booklet, however, offers no "hard and fast answers" to extraterrestrial life, since such speculation is "better served by science fiction or poetry than by definitions of science and theology," he wrote. He said the booklet is meant "to put a smile on your face" and, perhaps, make people think twice about who could be peeking at Earth from alien telescopes far, far away. - - - Editors: Readers in the United States and Canada can order this booklet and other CTS publications through the society's Web site, www.cts-online.org.uk, or by e-mail, orders.nul-online.org.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 5 Re: Argentine Water Tanks Again Mysteriously From: Glennys Mackay <gem60.nul> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 22:54:06 +1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 08:24:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Argentine Water Tanks Again Mysteriously >From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 09:23:42 -0500 >Subject: Argentine Water Tanks Again Mysteriously Emptied >INEXPLICATA >The Journal of Hispanic Ufology >November 4, 2005 <snip> This article sure rings a bell... When I was out investigating some sightings in the Northern Territory last July with a friend from Adelaide, and one from Alice Springs, we went to an aboriginal community that backs on to the MacDonald ranges. Its situated directly over the hill from Pine Gap, and signs tell that trespassers will be prosecuted. Only people living on the community have a right to be there. Well this particular lady used to often come into Alice and visit our friend Keith at the police station to inform him that "they are back and the buggers have emptied our water tank again" or else it would the their dam. We have been out several times doing night watches in this area and have seen some very strange anomalies over the ranges. The Pine Gap boundaries were extended another 30 kilometres several years ago. At the moment I am investigating some sightings and encounters on a cattle station in Northern Territory. This particular station is 2,400 square kilometres and has a lot of cattle men working on it. As they sleep out under the stars most nights, they tell me they see some pretty strange lights in the sky. They have had these lights come down to the camp site, hovering over the trees on many a night. They've taken photos and some (in their terms) some pretty weird looking people have shown up in some of the photos. They also see a lot of Min Min Lights that follow them, even during the day time. They get spooked at times by them, they are about the size of tennis ball up to the size of a basket ball or bigger. In one area of the property they have had a herd of cattle (last year) wind up dead, with no perceivable markings to indicate they were attacked by dingoes or other predators. There was no blood - even more strange - and no foot prints of any other animal around them.... Peter just said they bulldozed the cattle into a heap and burned them. I am now awaiting to see the photos as they have to be sent to me and this could take several days or more as they are pretty isolated. The Aborigines tell of the Star People visiting at night and sometimes take their women and girls.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 5 Re: Do Space Aliens Have Souls? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:09:53 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 11:34:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Do Space Aliens Have Souls? - Hatch >Source: Catholic News Service - Washington, DC, USA >http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0506301.htm >Vatican Letter Nov-4-2005 >Do Space Aliens Have Souls? Inquiring Minds Can Check Jesuit's Book >By Carol Glatz Catholic News Service >VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Galaxy-gazing scientists surely wonder about what kind of impact finding life or intelligent beings on another planet would have on the world. >But what sort of effect would it have on Catholic beliefs? Would Christian theology be rocked to the core if science someday found a distant orb teeming with little green men, women or other intelligent forms of alien life? Would the church send missionaries to spread the Gospel to aliens? Could aliens even be baptized? Or would they have had their own version of Jesus and have already experienced his universal or galactic plan of salvation? <snip> An odd question, but not a silly one. As a (very ex) Catholic, I would have to say that any intelligent beings elsewhere in the cosmos would have no less of a soul than any human. Maybe a bit more depending on their intelligence. Would you deny a dog has a soul? I mean the dog who sins by peeing behind the curtains and stealing your tuna sandwich? Its the definition of 'soul' that I am playing with. If you or anyone means some spiritual entity which survives the death of the body, I'm skeptical, and very sadly so. I would much prefer to believe in some kind of survival, but see no compelling evidence. If you mean the wonderful 'spirit' of consciousness which animates us all, at least until the nth beer, then there is no argument at all. On a purely materialistic basis, one might argue that a machine, sufficiently sophisticated and complex, could gain a 'soul' or sorts... i.e. a consciousness that recognizes its own unique existence... to be a 'person' for lack of better words, an entity capable of saying, to itself, "I compute therefore I exist"... rather than some mindless soul-less exchange of signals. Interesting studies have been done with animals and mirrors. Some primates figure out that their 'opponent' is nothing more than a reflection, implying a 'sense of self' absent in parakeets for example. The machine-soul matter is philosophical, but definitely food for thought. The stark lines between man and machine could become hopelessly blurred if this has any merit. It might even have relevance to ufology. I would expect that a natural born alien elsewhere, would have as much 'soul' as anyone on this List. His religions (if any) could be as laughable as ours. Some of the duller ones might ask the very same question: whether hypothetical humans (choose a color, not green) have souls or not.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 5 Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:56:35 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 11:37:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Hatch >From: Richard Dolan <keyhole.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:10:57 -0500 >Subject: Philip Klass Letter Found >Greetings, >Last month, while I was at the Canadian National Archives, in >Ottawa, Ontario, I found an interesting letter from the recently >deceased UFO debunker, Philip J. Klass. This letter was >apparently previously unknown. I suspect that it would be of >interest to some people in the UFO field, and I put it on my >website last week, at: >http://keyholepublishing.com Hello Richard: It took a while, the page doesn't download fast on a slow dial-up connection like I have. It finally came in regardless. Kudos for the find, I'm impressed. Formerly, I held the view that Klass was an honest skeptic, but the letter you found undercuts all that. What I see is a secret and mean spirited message intended to damage Stanton Friedman and his efforts, all without his knowledge. Friedman and I have our own disagreements, Roswell mainly, government conspiracies maybe, but those differences are entirely beside the point. What I fear I see is an attempt to poison the waters, so that Stan Friedman and others like him are unable to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 5 Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:02:06 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 11:39:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Boone >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 21:12:40 -0600 >Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 19:30:39 EST >>Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found ><snip> >>I won't even lower myself to attack Klass. That would be a >>validation of what he did. Sure Ufology can use some good >>counterpoints to keep an even keel but not end up in the gutter >>like some politicals. >Karl Rove could have learned a thing or two from Klass. Klass >defamed someone to an important group of people without the >victim even knowing about it until after Klass went on to his >reward in the hearafter (which I'm sure Klass didn't believe in, >him being a professional skeptic and all). He had no legal >entanglements of the sort Mr. Rove now finds himself in due to >his character assassination activities. Aw don't worry bout Klass goin' on to his reward. I'm sure when he got to the pearly gates there was a sign on them that said: "Sorry, if you're that Klass guy you can't come in because we don't exist."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 5 Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman - Allan From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 16:05:33 -0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 11:42:35 -0500 Subject: Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman - Allan >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:42:03 -0400 >Subject: The Klass Letter On Friedman >I was emailed [as were many of you] a message by Richard Dolan >re his posting of the letter Phill Klass sent to The Herzberg >Institute [Canada] badmouthing Stan Friedman's planned move to >Canada. A scan of that letter letter was posted on Rich Dolan's >his website. >http://keyholepublishing.com >I responded with some of my suspicions re Klass's second career. >See below: >It's my opinion that Klass was an associate "spook" for the US >military or some other agency similar in makeup and aspirations. >As Klass was the senior editor of one of the most respected >aero-space magazines in the world he was stratigically placed to >do the most damage with the credentials to imply and denigrate. >In return I suspect that he was likely fed material-unavailable >to other like magazines- for AW&ST making him a valuable asset >to that magazine. A stipend was likely added to sweeten the pot. >This deal probably escalated in content and remunerative >benefits [possibly wheels were greased for his publications] as >time passed. >Any takers? I am not a taker. Klass's letter was uncalled for and an uncharitable and unnecessary pre-emptive strike at a man's possible future UFO activities in Canada. However, that does not in any way imply what Don Ledger suggests above. People should now compare the letter's contents with what Alfred Lehmberg had to say in his post of September 25, (entitled "Memory without Klass"). Note certain phrases Lehmberg quoted from Klass's description of Friedman: "uber-charlatan", "undesirable element they were getting ready to allow into their country", "destabilising UFO believer", "insidious threat", "security and stability of their country were they to allow Stanton Friedman.... to immigrate", "Klass was trying to poison Mr Friedman's Canadian [?] well before he got there", "restrict Mr Friedman's movements", "egregiously intrude on Mr Friedman's civil rights", and so on. None of these phrases appear in the Klass letter (although the reference to "snake oil salesman" does appear), nor can they be implied from what Klass actually wrote. For Mr Lehmberg to suggest Klass was trying to warn Canada about the "undesirable element" they were allowing into the country is preposterous. Further, the Canadian NRC does not, I believe, have any say in who is allowed to enter their country, either temporarily or permanently. This would come under another department. Also, the said letter was not, as Lehmberg writes, written to the NRC itself, but to an individual working within it who was clearly someone with an interest in UFOs and who may have had certain "UFO responsibilities", as the letter says. (Else why would Klass have written such a letter?) I assume this letter was written just before "The Roswell Incident" was published, else Klass would almost certainly have mentioned Stan Friedman's principal role in researching that best-selling book. As I say, Klass' letter was uncalled for, but Mr Lehmberg should now correct his gross dis-, or mis-, information about what Klass actually wrote. If they were taken from Richard Dolan's
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 5 UFO Audio For The Holidays From: Wendy Connors <fadeddiscs.nul> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 09:42:35 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 12:01:28 -0500 Subject: UFO Audio For The Holidays Greetings to the Listarians, The holiday season approaches and there are many researchers who might want to fill a few stockings this year. From now until December 15th, I offer Audio History of Ufology compilations from the archive at half of the normal donation request. I made a supply of the compilations and am need of rebuilding supplies for next year. Get your orders in soon, as the Project Blue Book disc is the last compilation of this series. Next year I will be compiling selected cases from the Robert Gribble collection (1st NUFORC cases) to make available to researchers. They will be a little different in scope, as I will include not only the audio track, but photos and documentation of each case. Of course these documents will be redacted of witness names, etc. However, the case file will be complete otherwise.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 5 Re: Passive Radar - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 12:05:57 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 13:28:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Passive Radar - Smith >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:53:22 -0000 >Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:52:23 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Passive Radar >Just to remind ourselves what we are talking about: Your >optical >proposals aside (valuable in their own right I'm sure), you >asserted that the existing evidence indicates that if there >are interesting unknowns they probably represent >a "radar transparent >technology" because visual reports are very rarely >corroborated by active radar. I have been set straight by Balaskas. Although I had mentioned the filtering aspect of airport radar data before, for some reason I did not apply it to all these anecdotal "not on radar" sightings. >From these premises >you then concluded that radar in general, and a passive >radar >array in particular, is not likely to be very >effective in >getting info about interesting unknowns. In my opinion >there are a few arbitrary assumptions and circularities in >there that need to be unpicked. I agree _now_ that there may not be enough of a dataset to make my conclusion. >>Again, I am basing it only on the reading cases(randomly >>selected at that!).UFO reports in which people call radar >>towers to figure out what the thing is and are told it is an >>airplane I am talking only about UFO cases >>in which the UFO remains unexplained >>after the report is published >- by whom? - Where most reports ends up. What seems to happen most (>80% of the cases) is that the UFO report is published and is never explained. The rest are explained as something likely (10%) and definitely (10%). Just my gut feel. Anyone got better statistics? Who takes the reins and answers UFO cases? Does their work get published? Most published UFO reports are left to flap in the wind. >>and, in the >>description of the report, "someone" calls the tower to >>ask if anything is on radar. >What confidence can I have that this "dataset" of >unidentified >stories you have read in unidentified places represents a >population of well-reported and well-investigated visual >Unknowns from which we can infer anything reliably >about the radar-visibility of TRUFOs near airports? Well, given that I said I have done not statistical analysis, then I see no reason to be so critical. Do I write down every UFO case I read from newspapers, Internet news sources, Filer's Files, Davenport's database? Sorry, I don't have such discipline. But ANYONE can acquire a gut feel (given _some_ long term memory skills) of what one reads. The irritation of "nothing was on radar" did not occur with only _one_ UFO report (news story), but occurred over years. I have no need to "prove" this. >>I would suspect that >95% of the radar >>operators say nothing is on radar to explain the UFO >>sighting >>AND nothing is even on the radar. >Then we need proportionately better reason, in general, >to include these incidents in our dataset. How do I know >that your >sources are not newpaper stories and paperback >pot-boilers full of the various assorted balloons, stars, >kites, birds, ground >lights, meteors and what have you that make up the >bulk of raw reports? Just because a story gets published >and "somebody" says it can't be explained doesn't make >it so. Why should I be _surprised_ that "95%" of your >cases lack radar corroboration? I am not saying that every UFO report even tries to call the airport radar. Clearly they don't. But of those that do call, the response is the same. Balaskas says they filter out such data. I "remember" reading that stationary objects (helicopters) disappear from such radar. Pretty lame behavior, but maybe they have their reasons for doing this. So the only UFOs that could show up on airport radar are those that behave like airplanes. Somehow I can't believe this. But all this shows is that is is really important to understand the instrument data source which I think most people do not (at least I didn't) who read these vexing UFO "not on radar" reports. >>I think if there were co-incidental unexplained radar >>contact this would be a VERY big deal and really be >>headline news. Instead,we "always" get the "nothing >>shows up on radar" story. >Not if we read the right sources, we don't. You appear to >be looking at newspaper headlines. You should be >looking at sources like Blue Book. Its been a while since I looked at good _old_ Blue Book. >I can't argue with your "always" and "95%" very >effectively because, although you said you wanted to >talk in percentages and >not absolutes you don't quantify "always" and 95% of >an unidentified population of unstated size is meangless. >If you'd combed through Brad Sparks' catalogue of BB >Unknowns, for example, and claimed an excess of >anomalous radar "failures" >therein, then we could have something to talk about. Actually, you said I should "feel free to talk in percentages". So actually, I am trying to accede to your request for sake of discussion. If you have done the statistic analysis verifying the worthiness of radar as applied to UFO research, then it should be valuable data to support Davenport's quest for passive radar funding. >Even if we were to grant (for the sake if argument) that >your unspecified population of reports is thoroughly >filtered and only includes well-reported and well- >investigated cases, we would have to exclude other >reasons why radar confirmation may not be >forthcoming from local airports before we get to >speculations about "radar transparent UFO technology". Okay, as I said Balaskas explanation seems to address this. >>My whole point is that radar _may_ not be the panacea >>everyone wants it to be regarding UFOs. It certainly >>should not be the reason people _don't_ try other >>UFO field research tools because >>they are "waiting" for passive or even active radar. >True, it shouldn't be an excuse. But I don't know who >wants radar to be a panacea. I think Sparks previous responses showed that he felt passive radar was the ONLY way to go. Also, the lack of instrumented UFO field research in recent decades (based on laziness I expect) will not be addressed/helped by people expecting a new device to come someday to "solve everything". >Working from the best evidence available >to us there appear to be interesting phenomena in the >atmosphere which are at least some of the time radar >reflective. Some of the best evidence for these >phenomena _is_already_ radar evidence. But we don't >know enough because those relatively few >fortuitous radarscreen incidents that we get to know about >are remote from us and imperfectly reported even in >the best cases. There's a place for optical tools as >well as passive and active >radar. But the potentia; advantages and accessibility of a >passive radar array and the richness of cross-correlated >doppler >information it offers could, if we get lucky, dramatically >increase what we know. And remember that any result >is a result, even a negative one. Fine, it couldn't hurt to try active and passive radar. But I fear that people will think that unless they have such appliances, its no use doing _any_ research. >>The cases of where there was an actual radar blip >>matching a TRUFO visual sighting seem very small. >>..... <5% based on my gut feel of reading >>reported cases. I will be happily corrected by >>those wielding UFO databases. >This is 5% of what seems to be an unfiltered set of raw >stories you read where "someone" might have mentioned >calling their local airport when they saw something. I've >read those stories too. But we should expect most of >these cases to be Knowns anyway. "Most"! Really! Such presumptions! Well, I won't ask for percentages. >A meaningful radar failure rate would have to be argued >from careful study of putative Unknowns where one has >strong reasons for believing that a phenomenon was >present which ought to have been detected, and this >depends on numerous factors related not just to the >phenomenon but to the radar type and >function and operating/reporting issues. Yes, but unless this data is provided to investors to show some chance of success, why should they invest in passive or any radar? >Bottom line is we "know" that UFOs are potentially both >optical emitters and radar reflectors, but we also "know" >that they may not be either of these all the time, and we >know next to nothing about whether they are isotropic >emitters/reflector, what ranges of RCS or luminance we >have to deal with etc. So there's plenty of room for > instrumentation at all wavelengths. All tools will >have limits (optical triangulation of light sources limited >essentially to nighttime for example) and would benefit >from complimentary approaches. A network of >computer-controlled cameras and the latest sophisticated >image processing software might well capture amazing >quantities of latent information, just like passive radar, >but would it really be "cheap"? Both need investment >of confidence, time, energy and money. I don't >see that one excludes the other. I concede ANY radar would be nice to have. Lidar, acoustic, EMF data too would be nice. Cost is key to getting somebody to do something. You see all these amateur ghost hunters with their dinky EMF meters, but at least they are trying! Optical systems for UFO research may cost as much as $10K for three triangualtion sites,but radar is much more expensive! $10K is not too bad for someone (retired) to while away his time trying to gather data on UFOs. $100K is for the big league, which never seems to step up to the plate for some reason. >>Also, obviously the historical UFO cases of optical >>and radar confirmation should be used to show that it can >>happen, but also we need to show why added radar (active >> or passive) will make any difference when these past >>cases did not change the world as we hope the passive >>radar would when tied to optical data. >I already discussed some specific possible advantages of a >passive radar array in other posts. Maybe so, but the context of my question was not addressed. Look at all the "great" optical+radar sightings/reports/ cases from whatever terrific respectible source you want to name. What difference does adding radar to the data make or even having it? Did it make any difference to those cases? UFOs are STILL an unaccepted, fringe thing, even with the few decent optical/radar cases, so apparently having this kind of data makes NO difference. >>... was merely an example of investing most or alot of >>your resources into a measuring device which has a low >>probability of catching the phenomenon. The same >>thing occurs in the medical world where we could go >>into the doctors office with a cold but >>they could test you for every known disease. >The same thing occurs with a computerised optical >tracking network. True, but how much would you pay? Are you willing to waste >$100K for no results rather than $10K for no results? Its a cost benefit ratio sort of thing. >The answer to this problem (which militates against any >investment in UFO studies, radar or optical) may lie in >exploiting existing data - as we both agree - recovered as a >side-benefit from more conventional research. True, unless they filter out the data we want! Which Balaskas seems to imply is done in his post. >Since you accept that we are talking about open-source >info on unclassified white technology which is already >implemented for civilian research and commercial >products, can you explain how "the government" is >supposed to make it difficult and >undesirable for billionaires to fund it? I just can't quite see >this. Just because something is "open-source" does not give it a free rein for anyone to do. Chemical formulae for explosives can be had from an encyclopedia, but does the ATF want you to make it by the ton? I was really just grasping at straws for an explanation. Billionaires do not act in a vacuum. They are easily swayed by their best interest, how do you think most get to be billionaires? If the government wants them to not support passive radar development for UFOs, then they are likely to not fight them. Your only hope is to find real rebels like Sorros or Hugh Hefner or Larry Flint and others who either "hate" or "disrespect" the "Man". >Reasons for reluctance to fund Peter's proposals (not >necessarily lack of interest as such)are not hard to imagine- >it's not a safe subject, possible kudos but also tremendous >risk. Rich people aren't necessarily idiots.You have to think >of risk like an auditor - it's not just probability of failure, >but probability of failure multiplied by impact of consequent >damage to a personal or business reputation. >Putting your name >and cash behind a "saucer hunt" that's a bust might call in >question your financial judgement in the eyes of future >business associates. Billionaires do not get rich by _not_T taking risk! Research into UFOs can easily be framed such that it could be a highly profitable enterprise (new physics that may cause some UFO sightings could be used for revolutionary energy generation or storage for instance). Your assessment seems to portray these rich folk as meek and timid when it is clear most are bold else (unless via inheriting the money) how did they get their fortune? >And unfortunately a proposal from Peter naturally >offers far less "cover" and plausible deniability than would be >the case if it were coming from a conservative accredited >academic insitution. I suggest that the focus of any future >pitch should be on working towards a parnership or access >agreement with such academic researchers, freeing potential >investors to calculate risk by the possibility of success >multiplied by the impact of consequent benefits. Yes, academic links would be better and less "UFO" and more "geophysical phenomena research" would really help. >>No conspiracies, just technology. If the science >>automatically filters out things they don't want to look >>for or need to look for then we won't get data of any >>use. This is either based on antenna design, hardware >>sensitivity, software design, storage, >>etc. Its not because they saw a UFO and erased it based on >>government requirements. They may just look at a >>meteor pattern and erase other data to save storage space. >I see what you mean. Yes that is all true. Hopefully if one could >arrange participation in advance of the experiment or the >operational deployment then these unwanted filters can be >designed out or bypassed. Yes, such in-depth understanding of the design and setup is absolutely required to understand the exact capabilities of the system. Calibrations with test "UFOs" launched at known locations would be very helpful, though its hard to mimic Mach 5 vehicles! >>Again, I must state that I believe the technology works >>and can be used in non-realtime mode to gather data. >>I just feel that it is not the savior for Ufology and >>real field research can be done right now without it. >Can a useful program of computerised optical tracking be done >"right now"? Or does this, too, still require getting funding >and cooperation from interested sponsors and academic or >industry partners to develop and implement? Oh yes, it can be done right now! Using present day computers and cameras and software. Sure a little work must be done on the software end, but the nice thing is that it is easy to simulate the data streams from the cameras to test the software adequately prior to automated use. Academic access would always be nice, but it is not needed. All you need is someone with ~$10K extra in his bank account and adequate sites (good field of view for three sites... if your own big ranch, no problem, but for us city folk its a bother getting three sites to set up at a large enough baseline without folk stealing/tampering with the equipment) and adequate time to assemble the equipment. You don't even need realtime processing to start with, but it would be nice to evolve into it as experience is gained. Regarding the software, its pretty simple and based on motion detection methods. Here is an example. http://sonotaco.com/ http://sonotaco.com/sample/ "UFOCapture is a Motion Detect Time Shift Video Capture software. UFOCapture automatically starts recording at a few seconds before the start of a movement, and ends a few seconds after the end of the movement. UFOCapture inputs video signals via DirectX video capture devices, such as USBcam, DVcam, PCI- video input board, PCI-TV- tuner. Using PCI-video input board, any video source ,such as IR-Video camera, Ultra Hi Sensitivity Video camera can be used. UFOCapture runs on Windows XP (over 2GHz CPU is required). UFOCapturePro is a shareware. 30Days free trial. (AVI/WMV 720*480 max with 4 detect areas ,Noise reduction
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 5 Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:10:39 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 13:33:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Lehmberg >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:56:35 -0800 >Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found >>From: Richard Dolan <keyhole.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:10:57 -0500 >>Subject: Philip Klass Letter Found >>Last month, while I was at the Canadian National Archives, in >>Ottawa, Ontario, I found an interesting letter from the recently >>deceased UFO debunker, Philip J. Klass. This letter was >>apparently previously unknown. I suspect that it would be of >>interest to some people in the UFO field, and I put it on my >>website last week, at: >>http://keyholepublishing.com <snip> >What I fear I see is an attempt to poison the waters, so that >Stan Friedman and others like him are unable to >learn anything. I find that frightening. Moreover, Mr. Hatch, I suspect Mr. Klass' furious activity in such a fashion is more indicative of 'something' being there,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 6 Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:14:17 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 08:19:49 -0500 Subject: Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman - Lehmberg >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 16:05:33 -0000 >Subject: Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:42:03 -0400 >>Subject: The Klass Letter On Friedman >>I was emailed [as were many of you] a message by Richard Dolan >>re his posting of the letter Phill Klass sent to The Herzberg >>Institute [Canada] badmouthing Stan Friedman's planned move to >>Canada. A scan of that letter letter was posted on Rich Dolan's >>his website. >>http://keyholepublishing.com >>I responded with some of my suspicions re Klass's second career. >>See below: >>It's my opinion that Klass was an associate "spook" for the US >>military or some other agency similar in makeup and aspirations. >>As Klass was the senior editor of one of the most respected >>aero-space magazines in the world he was stratigically placed to >>do the most damage with the credentials to imply and denigrate. >>In return I suspect that he was likely fed material-unavailable >>to other like magazines- for AW&ST making him a valuable asset >>to that magazine. A stipend was likely added to sweeten the pot. >>This deal probably escalated in content and remunerative >>benefits [possibly wheels were greased for his publications] as >>time passed. <snip> >Klass's letter was uncalled for and an uncharitable and >unnecessary pre-emptive strike at a man's possible future UFO >activities in Canada. However, that does not in any way imply >what Don Ledger suggests above. >People should now compare the letter's contents with what Alfred >Lehmberg had to say in his post of September 25, (entitled >"Memory without Klass"). Note certain phrases Lehmberg quoted >from Klass's description of Friedman: >"uber-charlatan", "undesirable element they were getting ready >to allow into their country", "destabilising UFO believer", >"insidious threat", "security and stability of their country >were they to allow Stanton Friedman.... to immigrate", "Klass >was trying to poison Mr Friedman's Canadian [?] well before he >got there", "restrict Mr Friedman's movements", "egregiously >intrude on Mr Friedman's civil rights", and so on. >None of these phrases appear in the Klass letter (although the >reference to "snake oil salesman" does appear), nor can they be >implied from what Klass actually wrote. For Mr Lehmberg to >suggest Klass was trying to warn Canada about the "undesirable >element" they were allowing into the country is preposterous. >Further, the Canadian NRC does not, I believe, have any say in >who is allowed to enter their country, either temporarily or >permanently. This would come under another department. Also, the >said letter was not, as Lehmberg writes, written to the NRC >itself, but to an individual working within it who was clearly >someone with an interest in UFOs and who may have had certain >"UFO responsibilities", as the letter says. (Else why would >Klass have written such a letter?) >I assume this letter was written just before "The Roswell >Incident" was published, else Klass would almost certainly have >mentioned Stan Friedman's principal role in researching that >best-selling book. >As I say, Klass' letter was uncalled for, but Mr Lehmberg should >now correct his gross dis-, or mis-, information about what >Klass actually wrote. If they were taken from Richard Dolan's >presentation at a conference, then Dolan should also issue a >correction. I respectfully agree only to disagree, Sir. My comments stand.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 6 Re: Public Split On Alien Invaders & Spooky From: Carol Buckallew <clbuckallew.nul-tel.net> Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 11:13:55 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 08:32:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Public Split On Alien Invaders & Spooky >ource: SETI Institute - Mountain View, California, USA >ttp://tinyurl.com/cgsa7 >Nvember 3, 2005 >ublic Split on Alien Invaders and Spooky Specters >by Seth Shostak >Senior Astronomer >SETI Institute <snip> >These sorts of polls, which invariably show the shortcomings of >Homo sapiens=92 ability to make deductions based on repeatable, >objective evidence, are nothing new. Indeed, they may be >difficult to eradicate, since, as children, we fabricate >intuitive theories to deal with the unobservable. This explains >much of the world for us, but also, as an English astronomer >pointed out to me, leads us to assume that it is inhabited by >magical forces -- a point of view that the polls continue to >reveal as highly ingrained. I believe the paragraph above says it all as to why Seth wrote this piece of trash. Basically calling anyone that believes aliens are here and the experiences they had were real are whacky and worse, he just uses nice words to say so. But this is the sort of talk people want to hear, it calms them after all here's this expert, he knows of what he speaks. We best stop watching those crazy documentaries about abductions and proof of ships setting down on the ground and all those crazy lights in the sky are military aircraft. And why wouldn't they believe this? All UFO researchers can do is fight among themselves and or with hold information to stay on top of some imaginary pile of crap. How are you helping any of us that had these experiences, do you stand behind us? No. You need two or more witnesses, you need marks on the ground or on bodies and even then, right along with the debunkers, you think we could easily put those marks on ourselves or put those marks on the ground? UFO researchers need more proof than anyone else something really happened because they are all so afraid someone's lying and could make them look bad. Well let me tell you, that leaves the rest of us out in the cold. All I see is arguing and mistrust among UFO researchers, which does nothing but serve the purpose of people like Seth, it's used against all of you all the time. People usually get involved in projects that are for the long haul for three reasons, two of which are about the same and they are, because to them it's important and what ever subject it is they love to do. If it is mostly they love to do it that means they care about anyone that is also involved. If it's none of the above it's for only one reason personal gain and let me tell you-all many, many people believe the personal gain because that's the message being sent, no matter whether its true or not. What's obvious is its clear to see there are those on this List and about every other aspect of Ufology that love to keep experts arguing back and forth because they know that's all they will get done. One good example is Father Gill and what he saw. It's been many years since I read the account from Gill but what comes to my mind first is his character, he was after all a man of God, not a liar. The next thing is he saw something big, he saw beings on this big thing hanging in the sky. Yet people here have to disagree. Petty stuff is all this has turned out to be, without consideration for the experiencer - again. Don't like what you read here, I must be telling the truth cause it's the hardest to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 6 Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:54:05 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 08:35:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Clark >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:56:35 -0800 >Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found >>From: Richard Dolan <keyhole.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:10:57 -0500 >>Subject: Philip Klass Letter Found Larry and Listfolk, >Formerly, I held the view that Klass was an honest skeptic, >but the letter you found undercuts all that. Klass was "honest" only in the sense that he was sincere in his phobic rejection of the UFO phenomenon. In my long experience and observation of him, he was not honest in the sense in which honesty is applied to intellectual integrity. I refer Listfolk to my obituary of him in the current issue of CUFOS' International UFO Reporter (pp. 27-28). >What I see is a secret and mean spirited message intended to >damage Stanton Friedman and his efforts, all without his >knowledge. >What I fear I see is an attempt to poison the waters, so that >Stan Friedman and others like him are unable to >learn anything. I find that frightening. This little episode is hardly an isolated one in Klass's career. It is likely, I think, that there are others of which we will learn in due course and no doubt others which will forever remain hidden. There was, of course, the notorious ufology-is- tantamount-to- Communism episode http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/debunk1.htm which Klass did not want known. He actually threatened to sue the University of Nebraska when an employee exposed the incident. Reading the nasty letter concerning Friedman, I was reminded of a comparable incident with Allen Hynek. For years Allen was astronomy consultant to McGraw-Hill, the venerable science and technology publisher. One day, according to an account I had from Allan Hendry not long afterwards, Klass called Hynek's editor and demanded to know why McG-H had a "UFO nut" on its payroll. He encouraged the editor to fire him. The editor was at first taken aback, then amused. As soon as he got Klass off the phone, he called Hynek to recount the bizarre
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 6 Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 14:22:48 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 08:47:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Boone >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:10:39 -0600 >Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:56:35 -0800 >>Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found >>>From: Richard Dolan <keyhole.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:10:57 -0500 >>>Subject: Philip Klass Letter Found <snip> >Moreover, Mr. Hatch, I suspect Mr. Klass' furious activity in >such a fashion is more indicative of 'something' being there, >than 'something' not being there. Yes! That's about the size of it Lehmberg! If thar wuddn't a mouse in the house, there wouldn't be a squeak from the rat :)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 6 Re: Gill Sighting - Harney From: John Harney <magonia.nul> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:00:59 -0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 08:42:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Gill Sighting - Harney >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:59:22 -0600 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 20:16:32 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>I have on many occasions commented on the difference in approach >>between British and American ufologists. It is clear that >>American ufology is much more ETH-oriented than British ufology, >>at least amongst the active figures. >That is pretty simplistic, and it is also why discussion with >you guys is always an exercise in frustration. <snip> >That is also why you are so obsessed with the ETH, because you >can't imagine that we aren't as theory-obsessed as you are. I >would say, at the most conservative estimate that I can possibly >offer, that 99 out of 100 references to the ETH I encounter in >my life as a ufologist are expressed by Magonians. As I need to >point out once again for Listfolk if not for you since you >apparently aren't paying attention, an extensive review of the >literature has shown that there is relatively little serious >discussion of the ETH in the UFO literature. >For specifics, I refer Listfolk to my entry/essay >"Extraterrestrial Hypothesis and Ufology" in The UFO >Encyclopedia, 2nd ed. I am willing to wager that a considerable >percentage of ETH discussion in the past 25 years of ufology has >been in Magonia's pages. Magonians are uniquely bonkers >on the subject. Yes, but you can't leave out the theory without being logically inconsistent. You can't make any sense out of the data you are studying unless you have some kind of theory. And if you do not subscribe to the ETH, how could you write the following? >Spare us the transparent fiction of a "less critical attitude to >witnesses." In fact, I see no evidence of that at all. What I do >see on your end is simple, endless repetitive rejection of >anything you don't want to hear. Witness or witnesses report a >structured craftlike object with extraordinary performance >characteristics, and all you need to declare is that he, she, or >they couldn't have seen any such thing and thus were in error. If you say they could have seen such things, and they were not misperceptions, then where could these "structured craftlike objects" be from but some other planet? It seems it's okay to _imply_ the ETH so long as you don't spell it out. However, you can't have it both ways; either you take these "structured craft" reports as being literally true and thus subscribe to the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 6 Re: Passive Radar - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 20:34:43 -0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 08:49:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Passive Radar - Shough >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:04:08 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:07:01 -0000 >>Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:25:52 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >>>Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>>To risk being a Gloomy Gus, although I am sure passive radar`can >>>pick up ionization trails, there is no assurance that UFOs >>>generate them. No way can passive radar even see the meteor >>>"body" just its trail. >>Peter is just illustrating one widespread type of application`of >>passive radar. You seem to be under the misapprehension here >>that passive radar needs ionisation trails to be useful - that >>the "body" of a UFO (whatever it is) would not be detectable >>unless it generates a plasma trail. This is completely wrong. >>Obviously tiny individual dust particles hundreds of miles`away >>are not going to be detected by any radar, active or passive, >>unless they are causing plasma trails, but this is just >>irrelevant. >Well, I must have misunderstood/misrembered the technical >reports I read. If you say that the passive radar is really >detecting the meteor bodies thermselves, then I will go along >with you until I read otherwise when I get a chance to look >again at the literature. All you have to do is read what I just wrote there in plain sight! Obviously the absolute polar opposite of what you are imagining I said. I'll repeat it: "Obviously tiny individual dust particles hundreds of miles away are not going to be detected by any radar, active or passive, unless they are causing plasma trails, but this is just irrelevant." The active clause in that sentence remains the last one. >>As for whether UFOs do associate with plasmas: There is no >>assurance, you say. Well, we aren't in the business of >>assurances here. If we had assurance that "UFOs generate >>ionization trails" than we would have the sort of knowledge that >>would obviate all this debate. We don't, we only have evidence >>and inferences. >It moot if passive radar doesn't need ionization trails to see >objects at very high altitudes. I can see how such trails aren't >needed for nearby objects. I think I misunderstood the actual >size of the meteors being "seen". If all they can see are the >ionization trails, but they deduce it is caused by a tiny >meteor, then that makes sense. This is more of the same misunderstandings of what remains an irrelevance. Nick's focus (sorry, I wrote "Peter" by mistake before; apologies to Nick & Peter Davenport) on the meteor radar (which as I pointed out is not a passive radar anyway) seems to have fixated you on this issue. I've been trying to explain why it is a side issue so as to encourage discussion of passive radar, but not very effectively as it seems the misunderstandings just get consolidated. >>There are no assurances that there are anomalous light sources >>optically trackable on vertical ascents into space, are there? >>That's why you advocate optical tracking - to provide the >>assurances of this. >All I can say is that numerous witness cases show such lights >going vertically. Optically, we have a alot of support for UFO >behavior that can happen. Well, all _I_ can say is that numerous reports have radar targets travelling at thousands of mph or hovering or following aircraft etc. etc. We have support for radar UFO behaviour that can happen, too. If you recall, I mentioned that certain features of witness accounts suggest ionisation effects only as one (minor) example of evidence that might favour long-wave passive radar cover over microwave active radar, but you objected that we needed prior "assurance" that such effects existed before this could count as an argument in favour of passive radar. Yet witness evidence of lights going vertically is not an assurance that future optical tracking will validate this behaviour. I hope you see the underlying logical equivalence of our positions now. >Ionization is less "knowable" given we >can't see these (with a certainty at least). I have to repeat, no one said anything about requiring ionisation for effective use of passive radar. Again, this is a misunderstanding of a very secondary issue. I hope we can get past this to refocus on the main issues. >>You can't offer assurances yourself, but you >>can and do argue the hopelessness of passive radar cover from >>inferences about airport radar performance with respect to >>UFOs can't you? >I didn't say it was hopeless to use passive radar. I am just >saying you need some hope and lots of money. >I don't want to discourage. >It would be great to get a broad swath of data from every kind >of instrument at eveyr frequency. But who will fund this >effort? Its always been out of our own pockets. >Yes, passive radar may be useful and interesting. I hope you >can get funding. Well I'm not involved in it, just a bystander supportive of Peter Davenport's idea and efforts. I think more of us could be. As far as I can see his has been a rather lone voice, as Brad Sparks pointed out originally at the start of this thread. You reasonably said "I just feel that it is not the savior for Ufology and real field research [meaning optical tracking] can be done right now without it." Maybe, but I'm still interested in an answer to the question I posed back to you a few days ago: 'Can a useful program of computerised optical tracking be done "right now"? Or does this, too, still require getting funding
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 6 Re: Gill Sighting - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 21:02:37 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 08:52:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Gill Sighting - Rimmer >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:59:22 -0600 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 20:16:32 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:15:51 -0600 >>>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:12:54 +0000 >>>>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >Sigh, John, Jerry, all the sighs you have expended on me over the years. And all the times you've promised you'd never respond again to my vaporings. It looks like we're locked in a never ending Moebius- strip of mutual disappointment. >>I have on many occasions commented on the difference in approach >>between British and American ufologists. It is clear that >>American ufology is much more ETH-oriented than British ufology, >>at least amongst the active figures. >That is pretty simplistic, and it is also why discussion with >you guys is always an exercise in frustration. >The "difference in approach between British and American >ufologists" is that the former (at least the pelicanist >division) are almost entirely theory- driven, while American >ufologists are pragmatists more focused on investigation and >documentation than on the sort of airy, lit-crit speculation and >ex cathedra prouncement that fill the pages of Magonia. I'd take >one case study from a James McDonald or a Walt Webb or a Brad >Sparks or a Bill Weitzel or a Jennie Zeidman or a Ted Bloecher - >virtually none, incidentally, even mentioning the ETH in the >briefest passing - over any hundred Magonian excursions into >windy guesswork any day. What sane observer looking for >substantive information on which to arrive at an informed >conclusion wouldn't? I make no apology for Magonia being theory-driven. We have had fifty years of the wonderful, detailed case studies of the types you adore. I have read hundreds of them over the 37 years I have been involved in ufology. In themselves they can be interesting, and they certainly describe many puzzling cases. But where, after all that effort, have they got us? Precisely nowhere. You may think investigation and documentation an end in itself, but on it's own it's no more more less fruitful than what you amusingly describe as 'literary criticism'. Apparently we just have to keep adding to the pile documentation until at some future date, when all List subscribers are safely dead, a new scientific elite will make sense of them. >That is also why you are so obsessed with the ETH, because you >can't imagine that we aren't as theory-obsessed as you are. I >would say, at the most conservative estimate that I can possibly >offer, that 99 out of 100 references to the ETH I encounter in >my life as a ufologist are expressed by Magonians. As I need to >point out once again for Listfolk if not for you since you >apparently aren't paying attention, an extensive review of the >literature has shown that there is relatively little serious >discussion of the ETH in the UFO literature. Come off it, mate! 99 out of 100 references that you read to the ETH are in Magonia? If you're reading list is that limited, you need to get out more. And exactly what "extensive review of the literature" is this, exactly? Oh, I see, it's Jerry Clark's "extensive review of the literature": >For specifics, I refer Listfolk to my entry/essay >"Extraterrestrial Hypothesis and Ufology" in The UFO >Encyclopedia, 2nd ed. I am willing to wager that a considerable >percentage of ETH discussion in the past 25 years of ufology has >been in Magonia's pages. Magonians are uniquely bonkers >on the subject. Absolutely nothing in MUFON UFO Journal, or IUR then? Stan Friedman never mentions it in his hundreds of lectures? Complete absence of any discussion at all those wonderful UFO conferences? >In my life as an anomalist, my interest for some years has not >been in the ETH but in other areas, about which I have written a >number of essays by now, conducted a considerable amount of >research, and devoted much thought. Thus, I find your ETH >obsession - it is you, not I, who bring it up, it often feels >like, at every other breath - a tremendous bore and distraction, >frankly. Or maybe the idea is to make the debate so tedious that >you'll lull all readers into deep slumber and at last Magonians, >as the last ones still awake, can finally declare triumph. The only times I ever mention it, are when you perform the amazing intellectual contortion of suggesting that UFOs represent objectively-existing, structured crafts, that have characteristics beyond anything constructed on earth. Then I ask how you can justify this position without also accepting the ETH. And they you refuse to answer and go on about me being "obsessed" with the ETH. Notice that I never raise this matter with any other List contributor. >>I think that this is >>because there is perhaps a less critical attitude to witness >>testimony in the US than there is in Britain, which may have >>something to do with national attitudes. I think this is a >>subject worth discussing. I do not regard it as anti- >>Americanism. >Spare us the transparent fiction of a "less critical attitude to >witnesses." In fact, I see no evidence of that at all. What I do >see on your end is simple, endless repetitive rejection of >anything you don't want to hear. Witness or witnesses report a >structured craftlike object with extraordinary performance >characteristics, and all you need to declare is that he, she, or >they couldn't have seen any such thing and thus were in error. Oh dear, "structured craft-like object" again - but nobody mention the ETH. Yes, Jerry, I do declare that they couldn't have seen such a thing, and you do as well, because if they really did see a "structured craft-like object" it could be only one of two things. Either it's one of our "structured craft-like object" or it's someone else's. But you have already proclaimed that it's not one of ours, and wild horses couldn't pull the admission from you that it's someone else's, so the only solution you are admitting was that the witnesses didn't see a "structured craft- like object", but just something that looked like "structured craft-like object". Which is what I said in the first place. >Convention wisdom wins, and discussion ends. That has nothing to >do with "critical attitudes" and everything to do with the sort >of dogmatic orthodoxy that David Hufford wittily calls the >"tradition of disbelief." Mention of David Hufford, five points. Amazingly, I have also read a lot David Hufford's writings, and he's not talking about what you seem to want to make us think he's writing about. >Nor does it have anything to do with psychology or sociology, >which - employed as something other than a rhetorical device by >lay debunkers - would also shed light as much on rejection of >heretical anomalous claims as on acceptance of them. But >rejection is not an area so-called psychosocial ufologists have >any interest in exploring. So UFO reports have nothing to do with psychology or sociology? Hmm, I might say that conventional ufological wisdom wins and discussion ends. >At one time on this List, we were >treated to the amusing and revealing spectacle of pelicanists >actually _denying_ that ridicule has figured prominently and >influentially in the evolution of the UFO controversy. Ridicule >as a major element of the psychological and social response to >UFO reports is a subject in which Magonians have no interest and >which figures not at all in the publication's contents, >functioning like the elephant everyone pretends not to notice >sitting in the living room. I have said before, Jerry, that I would be most interested in publishing an article on the role of ridicule in the development of ufology. Maybe you could suggest someone who might like to write it. >Another difference between American ufologists and British >pelicanists is that the former have a deeper appreciation of the >complexity, phenomenological and cultural, of the issues we deal >with. We try to tie our ideas to evidence that we can >demonstrate (such as, most recently; the empirically >demonstrable meaning of the phrase "mothership" in popular >discourse), and we make no claims to certain knowledge we don't >possess. In other words, we just don't automatically press the >"believe" button the way pelicanists robotically press the >"disbelieve" button. I found nothing 'empirically demonstrable' about Gill's use of the word 'mothership' in the recent discussion. Both sides of the argument were based on speculation and assumption. It's just that I - as you might expect- found my speculation and assumption more convincing than yours; and you - as I might expect - found to the contrary. >That is why you are unable to communicate your beliefs in any >persuasive way to those who don't already share them. That's why >you are left to blame others for their skepticism, and falsely >to judge them gullible and stupid when in fact they're too >smart, experienced, and critical- minded to believe you. And >their attitudes, whatever they are, toward the visiting >spacecraft with which you are so obsessed have nothing to do >with it. It's just that they know the difference between a good >argument and actual evidence as opposed to their opposites, and >you don't appear to. You won't believe this Jerry, but sometimes I can go for as long as, oh, twenty minutes, without thinking about visiting spaceships. >In reality, as anyone knows, witnesses tend to get some things >right, while they sometimes get other things wrong. Every >pragmatic ufologist knows that and takes care to bring that into >consideration. >The same can be said of ball-lightning researchers, except that >you would never use arguments against the existence of BL that >you employ against the existence of UFOs. Yet BL, more than UFOs, >is something whose claim to existence is almost wholly dependent on >eyewitness testimony. As the Australian plasma physicist John Lowke, >a world-class authority on the phenomenon of BL, says in defense of >his belief: >"Though... I have never seen the phenomenon personally, I find >that there is no question that ball lightning exists. I have >talked to six eyewitnesses... and think there is no reasonable >doubt as to the authenticity of their observations. Furthermore, >the reports are all remarkably similar and have common features >with the hundreds of observations that appear in the >literature." > >So, it turns out, your real problem - unless Magonia is >suddenly going to turn on BL as fiercely as it did on UFOs - is >not with eyewitness testimony but with heretical perception. I think we've had this ball-lightning argument before, indeed subsequently Martin Shough wrote an interesting piece for Magonia about it. I'm not going to turn on ball lighting fiercely, but I am aware of the many problems involved in proving its existence, and I do believe that there is a minority scientific viewpoint that still has doubts about its nature. >>I also think there is a very important difference between >>sceptical attitudes on either side of the Atlantic. As I have >>remarked previously, most British sceptical ufologists have >>'risen through the ranks', i.e. have started off assuming the >>ETH was a valid explanation for UFO reports, but the more they >>have found out, the more sceptical they have become. On the >>other hand, most American ufological skeptics seem to have come >>from the subject from the outside, like Klass and Menzel. I >>think this is a matter of some interest, and worthy of >>discussion. >I can't imagine it would be a very interesting discussion, since >the conclusions are drearily the same and as question-begging. >There isn't a penny's worth of difference between Magonia >pelicanists and debunker pelicanists. Same wing-flapping, same >avian squawking. Same desire to affirm conventional wisdom and >to avoid heterodox positions at any and all cost. And the same >psychosocial forces - prominently the disbelief tradition - >leading the march. And, by the way, in many cases the same claim >to movement from initial belief to subsequent disbelief. I still find it interesting that most of the prominent sceptics in the UK have arisen through the UFO field, often changing their views as they undertook more investigations; whereas in America the prominent skeptics have approached the subject from outside. This is not to say, of course, that no American ufologists have evolved to a sceptical position through their researches. >And now let's remind Listfolk of the posting you are again >neglecting to address or even acknowledge. It's here: >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/oct/m28-031.shtml I did comment on this, but either my email didn't transmit properly or was not posted on the List for some reason. I cannot actually see anything in the posting that needs a reply, as it seems to be Mr Sandow's opinion on my lack of knowledge, to which he is perfectly entitled, even in the absence of empirical evidence. I am however puzzled by his line: "And now, for a change, we have some actual research. Data! Facts!" What Data! Facts! Is he referring to. >Everything you need to know about why Magonians are >fundamentally unserious is outlined in Greg Sandow's post. No >wonder you avoid that post as if it were a toxic substance. No
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 6 Re: Friday Phenomena UFO Conspiracy? - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 17:52:46 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 08:53:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Friday Phenomena UFO Conspiracy? - White >Source: KLAS-TV - Las Vegas, Nevada, USA >http://www.klastv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4076714&nav=168Y >Nov 5, 2005 >Friday Phenomena: UFO Conspiracy? >George Knapp >Investigative Reporter <snip> >Colonel John Alexander (Ret.) said, "I've talked to some of the >most senior people in government and have found no evidence >there was even one." Former Army intelligence Col. John >Alexander, with extensive contacts in military circles and an >interest in UFOs, says he can't buy the idea that there have >been so many crashes. "It seems inconceivable to me that this >hyper-advanced technology came a trillion miles to crash in our >backyard once, let alone that this stuff keeps falling down." Col. John Alexander was informed by me, and several others, about the five unclassified, relatively ancient, anyone-can- have-them electronic harassment weapons which operate silently, through walls, and don't require any implants in the target, in the late 1990s. http://www.shoestringradio.net/5techs.htm It was interesting that he never directly commented on those devices, preferring to shift the conversation over to "no evidence that government carries on electromagnetic anti- mind/body research" at the then current time. Shortly after that, he appeared on Art Bell, and solemnly proclaimed there is "no evidence" that any electronic weapons exist which can attack the mind and nervous system. _Twice_ on two different dates. I called him a liar as a result, and that got me in trouble, so let me say that John Alexander clearly showed himself as "less
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 6 Re: Public Split On Alien Invaders & Spooky From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 18:05:16 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 08:55:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Public Split On Alien Invaders & Spooky >Source: SETI Institute - Mountain View, California, USA >http://tinyurl.com/cgsa7 >November 3, 2005 >Public Split on Alien Invaders and Spooky Specters >by Seth Shostak >Senior Astronomer >SETI Institute <snip> >Neither the decided dearth of exhibits on haunting science at >the local museum, nor the absence of refereed journals on >ectoplasmic studies in the university library ... "Absence of refereed journals" can indicate there is nothing to hauntings. It can also indicate a deliberate, arbitrary, illogical, and I must say arrogant, decision by the scientific power structure that phenomena they can't all re-create on demand are not worthy of study, and/or, simply don't exist. Kind of like the "absence of refereed journals" on ufology. Besides refereed journals, the scientific method as preached
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 6 Re: C.D. Jackson & Robert E. Hohmann? - Mackay From: Glennys Mackay <gem60.nul> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 10:15:14 +1000 Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 08:59:58 -0500 Subject: Re: C.D. Jackson & Robert E. Hohmann? - Mackay >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 09:44:10 -0400 >Subject: C.D. Jackson & Robert E. Hohmann? >I am having trouble digging out background information on these >two IBM engineers (C.D. Jackson and Robert E. Hohmann) who met >with Betty and Barney Hill in the early 1960s. They may be dead. >I know they published a paper at an American Rocket Society >Meeting in 1962, but not much else. Should be resume type info >somewhere. Hi Stanton, While lecturing in Dallas last September, a lady gave me a DVD of the last interview that was done with Berry Hill before she passed. The lady was the one who interviewed and recorded their meeting. It is a very interesting interview, we are led to believe that there was only one main encounter, the way she tells it, they were ongoing up until she passed away. I will check to see if she makes any mention to these to people and get back to you.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 6 Re: Why The UFO-Detector Is Important - Maccabe From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 00:04:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 09:03:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Why The UFO-Detector Is Important - Maccabe >Source: American Antigravity >http://tinyurl.com/b7u5k >10/28/2005 >Why the UFO-Detector Is Important >By Tim Ventura >You're walking out to the car, expecting yet another uneventful >trip to work. It's winter, and the sky is dark: making the light >in the sky stand out against a background of stars. Something >about it seems out of place - it shimmers a bit, and seems to >dance in front of your eyes. Your imagination jumps at the >possibilities - is this is? Could it be some kind of alien ship? >s this going to be your UFO experience? After a second, your >rational mind takes over, and comes up with a list of easy >explanations: it could be Venus, or landing lights at the nearby >airport, or maybe it's just a star after all.... >What if you knew? >Dr. Ron Milione, a PhD Electrical Engineer specializing in >military communications systems, believes that he has the >answer...and for $375, you can have it to. I like Ron - he's an >easy-going fellow, and despite his technical knowledge and >impressive credentials, he takes an easygoing attitude towards >life that's hard not to agree with. He works by day at BAE >Systems as an Engineering Project Manager on Combat-ID Systems, >moonlights after-hours and weekends with a variety of >interesting projects, and the occassional alt-science, UFO, or >paranormal convention. Two weeks ago he sent out a few photos of >a recent trip to Montaulk, and this week he's been talking with >the legendary John Hutchison about building a scale-replication >of the Philadelphia Experiment. >The reason he built the detector should be obvious - it's a >magnetometer-based design to measure an EM signature and record >it on a chart for later analysis. The idea draws from his >daytime experience in engineering, and after-hours passion for >alt-science & the paranormal. He's described the workings of the >device pretty well online, and in all honesty it's not the >technology that makes it impressive - nor is it the application. >What makes this device profound is the fact that it has the >potential to once and for all end the debate about UFOs. There have been numerous attempts t detect UFOs with magnetic detectors ranging from super simple (compass that breaks a light beam when it rotates due to a UFO field) to the expensive and complicated like a proton magnetometer,. There is no guarantee that UFOs are accompanied by large enough magnetic fields to be detected at reasonable distances. On the other hand,. just because you detect a magnetic field does not mean you can see the UFO that goes along with it!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 7 Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 01:38:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 09:26:05 -0500 Subject: Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman - Ledger >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 16:05:33 -0000 >Subject: Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:42:03 -0400 >>Subject: The Klass Letter On Friedman >>I was emailed [as were many of you] a message by Richard >>Dolan re his posting of the letter Phill Klass sent to The >>Herzberg Institute [Canada] badmouthing Stan Friedman's >>planned move to Canada. A scan of that letter letter was >>posted on Rich Dolan's his website. >>http://keyholepublishing.com >>I responded with some of my suspicions re Klass's second >>career. See below: >>It's my opinion that Klass was an associate "spook" for the >>US military or some other agency similar in makeup and >>aspirations. As Klass was the senior editor of one of the >>most respected aero-space magazines in the world he was >>stratigically placed to do the most damage with the >>credentials to imply and denigrate. In return I suspect that >>he was likely fed material-unavailable to other like >>magazines- for AW&ST making him a valuable asset to that >>magazine. A stipend was likely added to sweeten the pot. >>This deal probably escalated in content and remunerative >>benefits [possibly wheels were greased for his publications] >>as time passed. >>Any takers? >I am not a taker. >Klass's letter was uncalled for and an uncharitable and >unnecessary pre-emptive strike at a man's possible future UFO >activities in Canada. However, that does not in any way imply >what Don Ledger suggests above. Really Christopher, An icon for you, was he. In this instance, you don't try to destroy a man's reputation by attempting to get the Canadian government to deny him access to this country [Christ we've let in known murderers who have then murdered, been captured and deported and let back in again] you forward some coy accusations in a letter to those that he might interrelate with in the scientific field. Since both Klass and McNamara had long associations with the field of electronics and engineering and probably met at some lecture some time before, Klass took the opportunity to contact an acquaintance and ply his trade. >"uber-charlatan", "undesirable element they were getting ready >to allow into their country", "destabilising UFO believer", >"insidious threat", "security and stability of their country >were they to allow Stanton Friedman.... to immigrate", "Klass >was trying to poison Mr Friedman's Canadian [?] well before >he got there", "restrict Mr Friedman's movements", "egregiously intrude on Mr Friedman's civil rights", and so >on. Not part of my question. Take that up with Al. >None of these phrases appear in the Klass letter (although the >reference to "snake oil salesman" does appear), nor can they >be implied from what Klass actually wrote. For Mr Lehmberg to >suggest Klass was trying to warn Canada about the >"undesirable element" they were allowing into the country is >preposterous. >Further, the Canadian NRC does not, I believe, have any say in >who is allowed to enter their country, either temporarily or >permanently. This would come under another department. Also, >the said letter was not, as Lehmberg writes, written to the >NRC itself, but to an individual working within it who was >clearly someone with an interest in UFOs and who may have had >certain "UFO responsibilities", as the letter says. (Else why >would Klass have written such a letter?) See below: http://quark.physics.uwo.ca/~drm/history/space/w_s07.html Click around and see the extent of the NRC-Herzberg Institute of Astrophysics. the links will take you all over the map, rocketry, comm. satellites, marine sciences, astronomy..... The National Research Council's long scientific arm has extended into many facets of Canadian life and not only did, but does employ and interrelate with hundreds if not thousands of scientific persuasions in this country and around the world. It has been hooked into military research through the various incarnations of Canada's Defense Research Board [with links into DARPA in the US], Astronomy, Physics, and yes indeed the Fireball and Meteor filtering function of UFO reports forwarded by various astronomers around Canada, the RCMP, other police agencies, the military and all during the time that Klass was practicing a little character assassination. But from what we've seen recently Stan wasn't the only bystander to get caught in the blast of Klass's odd vitriolic pursuit of UFO investigators. Perhaps you should ask yourself why he would take such a fanatical approach in his oft times ludicrous attempts at disproving various UFO reports and the phenomenon in general. What was in it for Phil Klass? He was so fanatical and ham fisted with his counter arguments that even some of his fellow CSICOPers quit the fellowship in disgust and he promptly attacked them. >I assume this letter was written just before "The Roswell >Incident" was published, else Klass would almost certainly >have mentioned Stan Friedman's principal role in researching >that best-selling book. Squirrel tracks, Christopher. Stay with the bear tracks. >As I say, Klass' letter was uncalled for, but Mr Lehmberg >should now correct his gross dis-, or mis-, information about >what Klass actually wrote. If they were taken from Richard >Dolan's presentation at a conference, then Dolan should also >issue a correction. Why? Rich Dolan presented the letter for you to read. It amazes me as to why people [usually those in debunk mode] get so huffy when Klass's inappropriate behavior become an issue. Either this man was off the rails or he was being driven by commitment. I hope no one suggests that it was all in order to bring the truth to the people.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 7 Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Morton From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 06:26:44 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:12:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Morton >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> >To: UFOUpdates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 21:12:40 -0600 >Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 19:30:39 EST >>Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found <snip> >>I won't even lower myself to attack Klass. That would be a >>validation of what he did. Sure Ufology can use some good >>counterpoints to keep an even keel but not end up in the gutter >>like some politicals. >Karl Rove could have learned a thing or two from Klass. Klass >defamed someone to an important group of people without the >victim even knowing about it until after Klass went on to his >reward in the hearafter (which I'm sure Klass didn't believe in, >him being a professional skeptic and all). He had no legal >entanglements of the sort Mr. Rove now finds himself in due to >his character assassination activities. I've read that Karl Rove has been active in that arena for over 35 years, including the Watergate scandal, and could have given Phil Klass a few lessons. Food for Pelicans: 1. Was Philip Klass wearing his glasses when he wrote that letter? 2. Had he seen a television program or read a book where someone wrote a similar letter, and imagined that he wrote one too? 3. Were the planets Mars and Venus, dancing together on the Eastern horizon at midnight, distracting Philip? Check with CSICOPian astronomer Andrew Fraknoi for more details on this probability. Food for the rest of us: I've believed for decades that Phil Klass, the non-pilot editor of Aviation week magazine, was a nasty, underhanded agent of the government. He was worse than some of the Watergate crowd who liked to play "dirty tricks" (Donald Segretti) on political opponents in the good old USA in the 1970s to prevent a fair Presidential election and help to ensure Nixon's re-election. Once they ordered 200 pizzas to be delivered (and paid for) to the opposition; sometimes they just ordered a load of rich, black dirt to be dumped on the front lawn of an opposing politico's home; or placed large orders of liquor for DNC meetings. Sophomoric, but there was much worse in that category: Fake letters and false rumors designed to cause headlines and major headaches for candidates, etc. Chuck Colson had his boys break into a psychiatrist's office, looking for dirt on Daniel Ellsberg, and Nixon himself ordered the IRS to harass Larry O'Brien - the head of the Democratic National Committee. Lawsuits, investigations, resignations, indictments, and prison sentences followed. To some degree, non-pilot, non-scientist Klass was the Segretti/Colson/Nixon of the UFO-debunking world. The letter proves the "nasty, underhanded" part of it beyond a shadow of a doubt. The "agent of the government" aspect might never be proven with a smoking-gun document, but read between the lines of everything he wrote, and that aspect of Phil's life will slowly materialize before your eyes. From a post on UpDates by Matthew James Didier, also posted at: http://www.torontoghosts.org/scienceandklass.htm ----- The Last Will And Testament Of Philip J. Klass: To ufologists who publicly criticize me... or who even think unkind thoughts about me in private, I do hereby leave an bequeath: The UFO Curse: No matter how long you live you will never know any more about UFOs than you know today. You will never know any more about what UFOs really are, or where they come from. You will never know any more about what the U.S. Government really knows about UFOs than you know today. As you lie on your own death-bed, you will be as mystified about UFOs as you are today. And you will remember this curse. ----- Why would a true skeptic issue a "curse"? This curse reads like a gloating prediction from one who knows something the rest of us don't. We won't know more about natural, mundane explanations for UFOs in the future than we do now? Why would there be anything more to know about scientifically correct explanations? Hasn't Phil already explained-away UFOs? This doesn't make any sense - unless there's more to it than Phil is telling us, and those "explanations" weren't really valid explanations at all. And "...What the U.S. Government really knows about UFOs..."? Now, how would Uncle Phil know what the US Government really knows about UFOs? Was he in contact with the US Government regarding the subject of UFOs and what it really knows?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 7 UFO Review - Issue 13 From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 12:25:52 +0000 (GMT) Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:33:59 -0500 Subject: UFO Review - Issue 13 UFO Review issue 13 is now available at: http://www.uforeview.net As usual, either of the the two top left hand buttons on the site, both marked "Current Issue", depending on which format you want. Both the PDF file and the Word doc are of a similar size at 2.1 MB. Amazingly, it's still free. Probably boosted by two recent major conferences, Cryptozoology appears to be on an upswing at the moment and interviews with Loren Coleman seem to be appearing all over the place. Not like this one though. This is an in depth look at Loren's career from his childhood, his family, his upbringing, his initial interest, his influences, his books, his relationships with Keel and Sanderson, and the similarities in many ways between Ufology and Cryptozoology. He also tells us why he won't be shooting Bigfoot when they eventually meet. Dr. Michael Salla speaks - just a few words. A Close Encounter. By Andrew Pike FRAS. Did the astronomical reassurances a few months back that Asteroid 2004 MN4 would miss this planet on April 13th 2036 put your mind at rest? Oh dear. Pikey scares you witless. Well, he did me. Linda Moulton Howe. An exhaustive and comprehensive interview with Linda who talks at length and with passion about cattle mutilations and what they=92re about and what they=92re not about, her career, Rick Doty, her critics, and the Government. Linda speaks openly and frankly and this interview reminds us again of her professionalism and commitment and very extensive experience. By coincidence, Cattle Mutilations An interview with Daisy the Cow. Tough stuff. The Hendaye Connection Another quite outstandingly well written and referenced article by Kithra on the Hendaye Cross, Fulcanelli, Galactic Superwaves and Mother Shipton=92s prophecies The Dam Acne Column Our resident Fortean specialist reports on a case of a UFO spotted at the centre of the universe in Harpenden. Sadly, not all is as it seems though. Sigh. Interview with Dr. Robert Farrell You write a book and self publish it. Then what do you do to get the word out? Wendy Colleen Gastl follows Dr. Farrell as he tours the States promoting his book "Alien Log". Searching For The Truth Dennis Balthaser=92s excellent commentary Dossier: Mysterieux felins en promenade Vous irriter juste, nous avons un article dans une langue que vous ne pouvez pas comprendre probablement. Et pourquoi pas! Notre Christain Mace de cher ami =E9crit au sujet de grands chats et =E0 ce qu'ils se l=E8vent. Meaningful Contact; George Adamski and the Contactees as Social Reformers by A.J. Gulyas. In part a response to Sheryl Gottschall=92s excellent piece in our last issue, this is a brilliantly written, easy to read, partial MA thesis that looks at the Contactee movement from a sympathetic yet objective perspective. Review of The Why Files - a look at the redesigned site since Clive Denton took over as webmaster. Review of the Probe International Conference, St Annes, Blackpool in October. Should conference organisers really give me free tickets and allow me in?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 7 Sounds From Space From: Kelly Freeman <Khfflsciufo.nul> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 11:03:25 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:13:47 -0500 Subject: Sounds From Space EBK and List, I don't know if this particular site has already been presented to the List or not, but in case it hasn't, those interested can go to; http://www-pw.physics.uiowa.edu/space-audio Weird stuff. The Saturn radio emissions are particularly interesting.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 7 The Shady Debunker Link From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 17:06:52 -0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:17:51 -0500 Subject: The Shady Debunker Link Errol and dear listers In the light of the latest back door behaviour being revealed concerning Stanton Friedman and the former high priest of debunker-land Klass. Naturally the disciples of Klass are still very much alive and kicking and soon hopefully screaming. My suggestion is that every time one of is looking around the web and we encounter what I can only term Debunker nonsense, or personal attacks such as the attack against Friedman, myself and many others that have happened and are currently happening. Then forward the link to the email below. I will then at the start of each month arrange the links into date received order write a brief description of what each link is and post this page to the list. The shady debunker link email can also be used as a debunker data base for bile that is propagated on the net against ufologists and is available to all. Maybe I could run it for a couple of months then someone else from the List could run it. It is only a simple matter of me telling the mail password they change it run it for a couple of months and then pass it on another List member. Obviously shady debunkers need not apply The email is set up and ready, so I ask the List send your shady debunker links to Shady Link the_shady_debunker_link.nul> Shady Link add it to your address book, to take part its a simple as click clck. The debunkers are well organised, well funded, well published, and well connected. This tool could give a much broader and detailed overview of the groupings and modus operandi of the debunkers as a interacting collective against the truth. I will collate the first two months who would like to run the account from January for a couple of issues? Comments and suggestions please to:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 7 Re: Why The UFO-Detector Is Important - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 12:34:04 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:21:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Why The UFO-Detector Is Important - Smith >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Sent: Nov 5, 2005 7:54 AM >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Why The UFO-Detector Is Important >Source: American Antigravity >http://tinyurl.com/b7u5k >10/28/2005 >Why the UFO-Detector Is Important >By Tim Ventura <snip> >Dr. Ron Milione, a PhD Electrical Engineer specializing in >military communications systems, believes that he has the >answer...and for $375, you can have it too. I like Ron - he's >an easy-going fellow,and despite his technical knowledge and >impressive credentials, he takes an easygoing attitude towards >life that's hard not to agree with. He works by day at BAE >Systems as an Engineering Project Manager on Combat-ID >Systems,moonlights after-hours and weekends with a variety of >interesting projects, and the occassional alt-science, UFO, or >paranormal convention. He also is part of the "technology team" on Ghosthunters/ TAPS (The Atlantic Paranormal Society). He was on Coast-to-Coast about EMF detectors for ghosts. I guess when you have all his credentials and are willing to "go weird" then there is a big market for you. >Two weeks ago he sent out a few photos of a recent trip to >Montaulk, and this week he's been talking with >the legendary John Hutchison about building a scale-replication >of the Philadelphia Experiment. I won't let this be counted against him too much. >The reason he built the detector should be obvious - it's a >magnetometer-based design to measure an EM signature and >record it on a chart for later analysis. The idea draws from his >daytime experience in engineering, and after-hours passion for >alt-science & the paranormal. He's described the workings of the >device pretty well online, and in all honesty it's not the >technology that makes it impressive - nor is it the application. >What makes this device profound is the fact that it has the >potential to once and for all end the debate about UFOs. I have no problem with someone making a buck, but I do have a problem with erroneous assumptions. The assumptions here is that all UFOs give off a specific EMF signature. Yes, it would be nice if this is the case, but unless he shows us that he has correlated a few UFOs to these signatures, then save your money! Also, he needs to be monitoring the sky to see how many UFOs he missed (did not show up with EMF). Magnetometers have been used for many decades to look for UFOs with mixed results. This does not mean they are to be ruled out. However, he really needs to _prove_ that his bargain basement device will detect UFOs in an acceptable rate. For instance, we need to know whether it detects very (ultra) low frequency EMF, because some researchers have detected these fields with some UFOs captured on optical equipment. >Over the last 50 years, the UFO phenomenon has evolved >into an all-out brawl between mainstream science & >advocates of UFOs as being vehicles from another world. .. <snip> >...At the end >of the day, though, all that we have is paper - making UFOs >into a modern pseudo-religion that becomes "an issue of faith". This is weird because I was thinking this last week. It is interesting that field research may not be needed because of faith. For instance, even if we could assemble all the instruments we needed and gathered all the data we could that showed that UFOs were from other planets, it would STILL not be accepted by some people. Essentially, they must experience it themselves. From this viewpoint, field research becomes a tool for _self_ enlightenment rather than an attempt to prove it to anyone. Also obvious is that the requirements for each person for "prove" is different, so a person using his eyes to see a UFO may be enough proof and is essentially their "field research". They may not even try to explain the UFO as prosaic phenomena. Other folk need more instruments and data to reach the same conclusion. >UFOs aren't about faith, though: If they're here, we >should be able to detect them. The skeptics would say >that we already do detect them - our imagination turns >clouds, stars, planets, and >shadows into alien craft that never existed in the first place. >It's back to faith, because all of our current methods of >UFO-spotting rest on subjective methods of analysis that >seem unreponsive to any argument either for or against. Sorry, Mr.Ventura but this is wrong. UFO "spotting" is a far cry from serious UFO field research. Optical triangulation should be adequate to eliminate subjectivity. >So in reality, it's possible that Ron Milione's done more >than just build a detector - this device could also be a tie- >breaker, because the magnetometer is the beginning of a new >type of measurement that relies on the EM-characteristics of a >craft, and not just the reported shape, speed, or other arguable >factors. I don't think so. Yes, UFO reports can be questionable. But serious UFO field research using triangulation would not be arguable (although it may be unacceptable). EMF data is valuable, I just need to see either its design specs or its application results. >Nobody's going to argue a reading like 16.56 megahertz, >and if a value like that repeatedly shows up in UFO sightings >but never appears from aircraft, then we can take this >measurement as a means to both understand how they work, >and how to refine the equipment to tell us more. But if it is designed to omit a key part of the spectrum or detects one kind of polarized EMF rather than another or a number of other issues, then negative results can erroneously dissuade further instrument developments in this area. >Milione's done something else as well: he's found a simple >device that both critics and advocates can agree on. If witness >testimony is unreliable, then let's base our observations on >multi-spectrum analysis to find discrepancies that the naked eye >might not see. Assumption (again): ALL UFOs give off EMF detectable using HIS EMF instrumentation. >Also, it's equally possible that if UFOs don't >exist, this tool will serve as a means to counteract overly- >imaginative perceptions. Not every light in the sky is an ET >mother-ship, and knowing that something's not a UFO could be >equally as important as knowing that something else is. Oh, yes, this tool can be used to make everyone think that a _real_ UFO must not be a UFO because it didn't give an alarm. Not good! <snip> >Even more interesting are the long-term possibilities: including >linking a series of these small, inexpensive detectors on the >Internet to not only detect UFOs, but track their movements >over large areas, and report trends encompassing large >geographies. Picture the same thing that it takes months to plot >using today's spreadsheets, displayed in a real-time map online. First, prove that a UFO has a EMF signature. Then go for all this other stuff. Still, I have a problem with the fact they they seem to only be interested in EMF radiating UFOs. <snip> >Whatever the case may be, it may also give us closure on the >UFO issue, and let us once again move on with our lives. I don't >know about you, but for me that's worth $375 bucks. No way! All the UFOs with no EMF signature going to be brushed under the rug? Move on with our lives? Who's stuck? As the end of the day, the question is why bother? If we had complete proof of alien origin of UFOs, then where does that get us? Its the same place as where we would get if we found Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster, or a huge range of other anomalous pheneoma. If the next step was to establish contact with these alien UFOs, then that would be very productive, however, since they seem to not institute these contacts (and knowledge of their existence doesn't affect their behavior), then it seems a waste of time (unless you just like the scientific "search for knowledge" or just want to prove it for yourself). For a maximum bang for the buck it seems that proving "ghosts" is the biggest one since we all must die sometime and it seems kind of important to know if this world is all we have. But then
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 7 Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 14:18:21 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:22:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Clark >From: Nigel Watson <nigelwatson1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 19:43:00 +0000 >Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 13:39:00 EDT >>Subject: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? Nigel, >There is a two-way interaction between film art and UFO >observations. Unfortunately ufologists have tended to ignore the >influence of the cinema on our perception of the UFO phenomenon >whilst filmmakers have largely ignored the wealth of material >within the UFO literature that could bring new insights into the >human condition onto the cinema screen. An obvious question in response to the sweeping assertions above: If science-fiction films can trigger vivid hallucinations which those who experience them mistake for actual real events, other kinds of films must also stimulate comparably vivid and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 7 Recent FUFOR Publications From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 05:34:56 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:27:30 -0500 Subject: Recent FUFOR Publications All- The Fund for UFO Research and the Center for UFO Studies are discussing the concept of combining their sales and marketing process, which has resulted in the lack of promotion for a number of publications that were recently completed. These discussions are, unfortunately, taking longer than expected. In some cases there were only a limited number of copies printed for the MUFON Symposium in July, and additional copies are now being prepared. The Fund's web site is being updated to include information on these new publications, but I wanted to make sure those on this list were aware of them: ----- "Grass Roots UFOs: Case Reports From the Timmerman Files" by Michael D. Swords. For the more than 12 years from 1980 to 1992, John Timmerman of the Center for UFO Studies journeyed across the U.S. and several other countries to present a UFO photo exhibit in almost 100 malls, universities, and other venues. The photo exhibit was eye-catching, and many people came up to John to relate their own, mostly undocumented, UFO encounters. He audiotaped each of the almost 1200 interviews, and this volume presents perhaps 400 of the best cases-all as delightfully summarized by Dr. Swords. The vast repertoire of the UFO phenomenon is represented here, from simple fly-bys to radar cases, close encounters, crashed saucers, and high strangeness events. In addition, Dr. Swords has illustrated many of the cases with his own well-executed line drawings. The result is a fascinating volume that revives the excitement and awe of the UFO phenomenon. Perfectbound, 251 pages, illustrated. $22.00, postpaid "UFO Sightings in the New Millennium" by Richard Hall. In case you're wondering whether UFO sightings still are occurring now that a new century has begun, the answer is yes! and the author presents a representative sampling of dozens of cases reported since January 1 of 2000. Although most of these sightings have not been formally investigated, Mr. Hall instituted a rigid filtering process and selected only those reports exhibiting "typical" UFO behavior-such as right-angle turns and hovering- and/or shapes that avoided mundane categorization as airplanes, balloons, stars, or meteors. Center-stapled, 30-plus pages. $9.00, postpaid "A Search for Meaning in the Ramey Document From the Roswell UFO Case" by James Houran. A famous photograph of Gen. Roger Ramey taken during the time period of the alleged 1947 UFO crash near Roswell, New Mexico, shows him clutching a document in his hand. The words on the document are almost legible; could they relate to the supposed UFO crash in the desert? Numerous UFO researchers have tried numerous techniques to enhance the text to readability; however, consensus on the wording has been elusive. This technical report summarizes the approaches taken to date by previous researchers to resolve the document's content as well as-more importantly-the results of new research initiatives undertaken by several independent photoanalysts who examined the photograph. Center-stapled, 70 pages, illustrated. $12.00, postpaid "UFOs Exposed: The Classic Photographs" by Rob Swiatek. Relatively few good photographs of UFOs have been taken over the decades; these few have been reproduced widely in many publications over the years, but oftentimes with little accompanying commentary as to their origins or the results of any photoanalysis done upon them. Rob Swiatek has attempted to rectify this oversight with a volume containing full-page reproductions of many classic UFO photographs (some in color) alongside concise narratives detailing the circumstances surrounding the taking of the photos and the subsequent photoanalytic investigations of them. Center-stapled, 32 pages, glossy, illustrated. $23.50, postpaid "Alien Invasion or Human Fantasy? The 1966-67 UFO Wave" by Richard H. Hall. In retrospect, it turns out the 1966-1967 UFO wave was one of the largest of all time, "the mother of all UFO waves," as Richard Hall puts it in this comprehensive report on the sightings of that time. It began in earnest in March of '66, and when it ended, the University of Colorado UFO Study-the so- called Condon Committee-was in full swing investigating the phenomenon. The repercussions from that wave continue to this
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 7 The Truth Is In MetroWest? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:49:02 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:49:02 -0500 Subject: The Truth Is In MetroWest? Source: Metro West Daily News - Framingham, Massachusetts - USA http://tinyurl.com/8sove Monday, November 7, 2005 UFO Sightings By Peter Reuell Daily News Staff The truth is out there. But... in MetroWest? Though it may not seem like a hotbed of alien activity, Bay State residents in recent years have reported hundreds of UFO sightings, including dozens in MetroWest. From Framingham to Franklin, folks have reported seeing everything from strange lights in the sky to actually encountering flying saucers, complete with alien beings inside. Despite Hollywood's focus on sites like Area 51 and Roswell, N.M., Peter B. Davenport, director of the Seattle-based National UFO Reporting Center, said UFO sightings are an international phenomenon. The group's Web site includes reports from all 50 states, as well as Canada and far-flung locales including Latvia, Bangladesh and Outer Mongolia. "This is a phenomenon that's not limited to the Southwest," Davenport said last week. "It's important to recognize that UFOs are real objects and they are capable of covering immense distances over a short period of time. They (can) go wherever they wish, and they do." But while the NUFORC's site lists 50 MetroWest sightings over the last three decades, local officials say exactly what folks are seeing remains a mystery. "Very rarely will we get calls from someone who sees something unusual or unexplained in the sky," Framingham Police spokesman Lt. Vincent Alfano said last week. "We'll look. If somebody said I see something strange over Learned's Pond, we would call the area car and tell them to look... and if they see anything we would do something." Exactly what they'd do, though, is tough to say. "I've been here 18 years and I cannot remember a call of anyone stating that," he said. "Certainly, investigating anything of that magnitude is far beyond the resources of the Framingham Police Department." "You basically... you log it," Milford Police Chief Thomas O'Loughlin agreed. "Sometimes there is an answer. People see lights and this and that and it turns out the state police helicopter was up in that neighborhood." That's not to say O'Loughlin doesn't get the occasional... interesting report. "I've not had the UFOs, but I've had the 'They're shooting lasers at me' calls," he said. "In my career, I've probably had the laser thing a dozen times. "I've had the cases where an individual claimed 'they' put a microchip in their body, and they're monitoring what they do and where they're going." How's he handle it? "Try to divert them to some good mental health services," he said. Part of the difficulty in trusting amateur reports, said Kelly Beatty, editor of the Cambridge-based Night Sky magazine, is simply that most people aren't particularly familiar with what goes on in the night sky. In recent weeks, Beatty said, Mars has been especially bright in the eastern sky. But to someone who doesn't realize what they're seeing, it may be easy to believe the strange light is a UFO. "Picture somebody who has an apartment that faces east and every night they eat dinner... and suddenly there's this dazzlingly bright thing there," he said. "It's not part of the night sky, so obviously it must be a UFO. "At some level, we've been conditioned by 'X-Files' and 'Unsolved Mysteries,'" Beatty added. "These kind of shows just drop in aliens as if it's scientifically, not only plausible, but likely." Scientifically, though, UFOs have some pretty tough hurdles to get over, said David Aguilar, director of public affairs at the Harvard Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. "No hardcore astronomer or astrophysicist will put any credence whatsoever to UFOs," Aguilar said. "The physics just don't work. If you're going to assume these are creatures that travel through space...this would have to be a whole new sort of physics we just don't know about." That's not to say he's written off the phenomena. Before landing at Harvard, he investigated UFO sightings for a science center in California, and while most could be explained, a small percentage simply remained a mystery. "No matter how hard I tried, there was no way to explain what they saw," he said. "I would say I'm a neutral skeptic, because I haven't been able to explain so many. However, skeptic doesn't mean I'm negative, because there is enough chaff in the radar that there may be something there." "I think it's become a cult icon," Boston University astronomy professor James Jackson said. "You see something unexplained in the sky, what the man on the street is going to think... it must be one of those UFO things." The simple fact is that while life is probably out there, it just hasn't reached us yet.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 7 he Eats Ice-Cream Cones & Searches For ET From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 18:02:07 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 18:02:07 -0500 Subject: he Eats Ice-Cream Cones & Searches For ET Source: Puna NewsLine - Puna, India http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=155774 Newsline Special November 5, 2005 Contact: Meet Jill Tarter, Jodie Foster plays her in the movie based on Carl Sagan's Bestseller She Eats Ice-Cream Cones And Spends Her Life Searching For ET Rituparna Bhuyan Carl Sagan's bestseller, Contact, was made into a movie in 1997 in which Jodie Foster played the role of the ice-cream cone- eating chief protagonist Ellie Arroway. Yet, after all these years, you just can't miss the similarities Ellie shares with her real-life role model Jill Tarter, on whom Sagan based most part of the character. "Sagan wrote a book about a woman who does what I do," says Tarter, Director of the California based Centre for Search for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence (SETI) Research, who was here to attend the just-concluded Square Kilometre Array conference. As you see her smile, her body language and hear that authoritative yet soothing voice, you realise Foster did a flawless job in the movie. But the similarities between Ellie and Jill goes beyond physical resemblances. Both are astronomers who look for signs of extra terrestrial life. Moreover, both their fathers encouraged them to take up astronomy but passed away when they were young. "Carl, who was a colleague, invited me to a cocktail party in 1985. There, he and his wife Ann Druyan surprised me by saying that I might recognise a character in his latest novel. I laughed and said, �as long as she doesn't eat ice-cream cones for lunch.' But I was very wrong." For Tarter, her father was the centre of her universe. "His death was incredibly traumatic for me," she recollects and adds how it wasn't easy for a young woman like her in those days to take up astronomy. "Carl included experiences that were not atypical for women of my age going into a male-dominated scientific profession. The background of the novel was descriptive of women who were my age and went through cultural and gender biases. Carl knew a lot of it." Ask her about the movie though and Tartar is all charged up. "Being with Jodie on the sets was amazing. She is really a kind woman." But Contact, the movie, had its share of flaws. Use of earphones to hear signals intercepted by a radio telescope and walkie-talkies to communicate was wrong. "We look at computers to analyse signals and never ever use walkie- talkies near radio telescopes because it interferes with the signals." So, are we alone? "It's not about belief. The universe appears to be bio-friendly. If indications were otherwise, I will be less eager to work on the project. ...Boy, if I could be part solving this question, it would be fantastic." When will we have contact? "I would love to know that myself." But Tarter sounds a word of caution. For, to intercept signals from extra terrestrial civilisations, our own civilisation should last long. The reason being these signals (if there are any) are travelling with the speed of light for thousands of years, will be from a past era by earth standards. But Tartar doesn't believe there'll be physical contact with aliens. "The tyranny of light speed is going to be very hard to manage as it requires huge amounts of energy. Even if it occurs, it won't be horrific. If such technologically advanced alien civilisation managed to last long enough to develop interstellar
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 7 Why They Think Of Aliens From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 18:11:23 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 18:11:23 -0500 Subject: Why They Think Of Aliens Source: The Washington Times - Washington, DC, USA http://washingtontimes.com/books/20051105-101711-4599r.htm November 6, 2005 Books Why They Think Of Aliens By Carol Herman Abducted: How People Come To Believe They Were Kidnapped By Aliens By Susan A. Clancy Harvard University Press, tk, 179 pages First, how can you not love a book that begins this way: "Will Andrews is an articulate, handsome, forty-two-year-old. He's a successful chiropractor, lives in a wealthy American suburb, and has a strikingly attractive wife and twin boys, age eight. The only glitch in this picture of domestic bliss is that his children are not his wife's - they are the product of an earlier infidelity. To complicate matters further, the biological mother is an extraterrestrial." From this startling and unapologetically funny beginning, Susan A. Clancy leads readers into what soon becomes a very serious and respectful study of people who are absolutely certain that they have been removed from their familiar surroundings by non- earthly beings. In "Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped by Aliens," the lead title of Harvard University Press' fall catalogue, Ms. Clancy, a postdoctoral fellow in psychology at Harvard, states quite clearly early on that it is not her aim to prove that these people were abducted - to the contrary, she does not believe these abductions ever took place - but that we can learn why these people believe that they have been. The study of this belief, unshakable in most cases, leads Ms. Clancy to make some compelling observations about recovered memory, fear, science, faith, reason, the human condition and, inevitably, aliens. Ms. Clancy writes that during Will Andrews' abductions (he has memories of being taken away several times), "he became close to his 'alien guide,' - a streamlined, sylph-like creature." Although they didn't communicate verbally, he feels they became 'spiritually connected' and their connection resulted in a number of babies." This is a book built on case histories such as Will's. Ms. Clancy conducted lab studies of 20 "believers," interviewed 12 in their homes or on the phone, and spoke to roughly 25 more abductees at conferences. She is moved by many of their stories, upset by more than a few, but the compilation makes for unusual and fascinating reading especially when combined with Ms. Clancy's persuasive interpretations and explanations. She sets out her game plan early on, stating that she will answer the following questions: "How and why does someone choose to study this phenomenon? What is the source of the abduction experience? If it didn't happen, then why are all the stories so similar? If it didn't happen, then why do so many disparate people believe it did?" And then she sets about her work. To answer the first question, Ms. Clancy notes that she began studying people with recovered memories of sexual abuse but soon discovered that "I hated the controversy, and I hated being seen as a secret enemy of all those people who had shared their painful memories with me. But then a safer way to study the creation of false memories turned up." Alien abduction. After placing ads seeking subjects in newspapers "Have you been abducted by aliens?" numerous calls came in. Most of the calls were from local TV stations, radio shows, and newspapers curious to know why Harvard was interested in aliens. Some were from ticked-off Bostonians ("Doesn't Harvard have better ways to spend all its [darn] money?") A few painful calls came from Latin Americans who misunderstood the ads and thought we were looking for illegal immigrants abducted by U.S. border patrols. One call was from an alien. After the beep, there was silence. As I hovered in the doorway, the machine emitted a static-like sound, followed by about twenty seconds of punctuated atonal beeping. There was an eerie syntax, almost a cadence, to the noise, and it ended with a prolonged hissssssssss. It was no less creepy the tenth time I played it . . . ." Ms Clancy is a witty writer, and that provides a pleasant counterpoint to what she discovers along the course of her research, starting with a phenomenon called "sleep paralysis," an experience in which people wake up for a few moments and find themselves unable to move. Ms. Clancy writes that "About 20 percent of the population has had at least one episode of this type accompanied by hallucinations." Compounding this phenomenon is hypnosis, a technique that people who have encountered the inexplicable often turn to, along with therapy. Trouble is that hypnotism, can make these people subject to suggestions that only compound their difficulties. Rather than providing insight into their experiences, hypnosis can add to their troubles. One subject reports, "In my first energy session, I was asked to relax and was put into a trance state. What was weird is that I was expecting to see my grandmother abusing me and instead, all of a sudden, I see a ship hovering outside my window . . . I see creatures walking toward the house." So who are these abductees ? Ms. Clancy writes, "It depends. If I compare them to the well-educated readers of university press books like this one, then the abductees are about 1.5 standard deviations from the norm, on a continuum I'll tentatively label 'weirdness.' But if I compare them to other groups I've had close contact with - serious vegetarians, yoga enthusiasts, artists, Hollywood actors, psychologists, Internet entrepreneurs, or my family - they really don't look all that different." Ms. Clancy is particularly adept at showing how popular culture, particularly movies and television have influenced reports of alien abduction. She writes "[alien abduction reports] began only after they were featured on TV and in the movies. Abduction accounts did not exist prior to 1962 (UFOs did and aliens in space did, but aliens coming to Earth to abduct humans did not.") I have a friend, the soul of probity for the most part, who claims to have seen a UFO during the war. His wife, at a different time, saw something else that to her mind could only be explained as something from outer space. It could be that with enough research into those past events, some logical explanation might be found. Or not. But alien abduction Ms. Clancy's writes, "is one of the possible plots that cannot be objectively verified . . . ." Alien abductions work really well because no one can say for sure that they didn't happen, and questions like 'How did you float through the door?' or 'Why didn't anyone else see the space ship?' can be answered with appeals to the aliens' technological superiority."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 7 Solarion Visits Parts Of New Mexico From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 18:21:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 18:21:35 -0500 Subject: Solarion Visits Parts Of New Mexico http://www.slowmotiondoomsday.com/enchantment.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 7 Theory and Pragmatism [was: Gill Sighting] From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:04:14 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 20:40:13 -0500 Subject: Theory and Pragmatism [was: Gill Sighting] >From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:00:59 -0000 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:59:22 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 20:16:32 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting John, >>For specifics, I refer Listfolk to my entry/essay >>"Extraterrestrial Hypothesis and Ufology" in The UFO >>Encyclopedia, 2nd ed. I am willing to wager that a considerable >>percentage of ETH discussion in the past 25 years of ufology has >>been in Magonia's pages. Magonians are uniquely bonkers >>on the subject. >Yes, but you can't leave out the theory without being some kind >of theory. And if you do not subscribe to the ETH, how could you >write the following? >>Spare us the transparent fiction of a "less critical attitude to >>witnesses." In fact, I see no evidence of that at all. What I do >>see on your end is simple, endless repetitive rejection of >>anything you don't want to hear. Witness or witnesses report a >>structured craftlike object with extraordinary performance >>characteristics, and all you need to declare is that he, she, or >>they couldn't have seen any such thing and thus were in error. There is nothing wrong with theory, of course. My problem is with an approach determined almost _entirely_ by theory and in which theory overwhelms actual data. Magonian approaches typify the latter, focusing far more on speculation than on investigation. In America, by way of contrast, pro- and anti-ETH investigators, as well as agnostics on the issue, are able to produce case studies of individual sightings of comparable worth, because whatever their private instincts about ultimate causes, they agree that theory needs to take a distinctly second place behind their desire for good information and documentation. >If you say they could have seen such things, and they were not >misperceptions, then where could these "structured craftlike >objects" be from but some other planet? It seems it's okay to >_imply_ the ETH so long as you don't spell it out. However, you >can't have it both ways; either you take these "structured >craft" reports as being literally true and thus subscribe to the >ETH, or you regard them as misperceptions and subscribe to the >PSH. Either way, why not be open about it? In the absence of solid evidence (such as the tracking of a craftlike observation from its point of origin in outer space to its appearance in terrestrial airspace) more or less unambiguously pointing to an extraterrestrial source, American ufologists tend to treat sightings as anomalous observations which they seek to document and whose dynamics they attempt to understand. It is, as I've already noted, a pragmatic approach rather than a theoretical one, which does not depend -- for one example - on unprovable claims about how ET visitors would or would not behave, and of course it properly keeps the attention on data. The ETH may or may not be an implicit explanation, but it is one
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 7 Re: Do Space Aliens Have Souls? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 02:48:46 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 20:42:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Do Space Aliens Have Souls? - Boone >Source: Catholic News Service - Washington, DC, USA >http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0506301.htm >Vatican Letter Nov-4-2005 >Do Space Aliens Have Souls? Inquiring Minds Can Check >Jesuit's Book >By Carol Glatz >Catholic News Service >VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Galaxy-gazing scientists surely wonder >about what kind of impact finding life or intelligent beings on >another planet would have on the world. Wasn't there an episode of the popular cartoon series, South
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Are Abductees Certified Yet? From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:13:25 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:08:33 -0500 Subject: Are Abductees Certified Yet? http://tinyurl.com/8t9kf We've seen the story above about the latest polling data on abductees and the psychiatrists who blanket diagnose them. Are they 'certified crazy' yet? Have the authorities finally come up with a new 'mental disorder' to dump all abductees, witnesses, whistleblowers and afficianados into? Is it only me that feels with the massive numbers of people who will admit to having been abducted, that soon some new mental illness will be voted into the DSM-IV which stands for Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders? I'm just waiting, waiting for Harvard to look at those millions of abductees and the probable 5 million more who won't publicly admit it and see a potential unprecedented consumer base for some new drug or mandatory drug/incarceration. Just think. With Dr. Mack out of the picture to defend against them, the psychiatric industry can bust a move where they make anything associated to abduction a 'mental illness' requiring mandatory drugging or some 'snakeoil' treatment like multi- flavored Prozac or Xanax. It's too tempting not to do! In the not too distant past, talking about UFOs would get one tossed into a mental hospital. I know as a fact as I grew up near several massive psych hospitals and that was in a UFO hotspot. People are still scared of retribution from the authorities and the psychiatric/pharmaceutical cartels. It's a freakin' shame and it's best to sleep with one eye opened unless Harvard comes up with a 'cyclops sleep paralysis' explanation. Stay frosty cause I'm telling you guys they're gonna push for this drug treatment crap any day now.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Gill Sighting - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:18:11 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:24:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Gill Sighting - Lehmberg >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 21:02:37 +0000 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:59:22 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 20:16:32 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>>Sigh, John, <snip> >>Everything you need to know about why Magonians are >>fundamentally unserious is outlined in Greg Sandow's post. No >>wonder you avoid that post as if it were a toxic substance. No >>wonder you're trying to disappear it into the memory hole. >Jerry, your rhetoric is getting almost Lehmbergian! Elevated to the status of mocking insult by what passes for the dissembling opposition... I _have_ arrived. Errol, please
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Passive Radar - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 14:23:53 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:28:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Passive Radar - Shough >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 12:05:57 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:53:22 -0000 >>Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:52:23 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>Just to remind ourselves what we are talking about: Your >>optical proposals aside (valuable in their own right I'm >>sure), you asserted that the existing evidence indicates that >>if there are interesting unknowns they probably represent >>a "radar transparent technology" because visual reports >>are very rarely corroborated by active radar. >I have been set straight by Balaskas. Although I had mentioned >the filtering aspect of airport radar data before, for some >reason I did not apply it to all these anecdotal "not on radar" >sightings. No, and I can't resist pointing out that I had myself previously asked you to (10/28/05) when pointing out that "detection failure might still be explained in conventional ways [such as] radar nulls and shadows, anti-clutter filters, staffing/reporting and other operational issues etc". But now that you've been "set straight by Balaskas" I suppose it's official! That's one pillar of your two-pillar argument removed then. We'll have to come back to the other one in a minute. >>From these premises you then concluded that radar in general, >>and a passive radar array in particular, is not likely to be very >>effective in getting info about interesting unknowns. In my >>opinion there are a few arbitrary assumptions and >>circularities in there that need to be unpicked. >I agree _now_ that there may not be enough of a dataset to make >my conclusion. OK - I think. But, reading on, you still seem to hold to that conclusion (that evidence of radar effectiveness in UFO detection is very weak). The other main pillars on which it rested was: "my gut feel from many years of reading is that there are a small number of radar/optical sightings". >>>Again I am basing it only on the reading cases (randomly >>>selected at that!).UFO reports in which people call radar >>>towers to figure out what the thing is and are told it is an >>>airplane I am talking only about UFO cases >>>in which the UFO remains unexplained >>>after the report is published >>- by whom? - >Where most reports ends up. What seems to happen >most (>80% of the cases) is that the UFO report >is published and is never explained. The rest are >explained as something likely (10%) and >definitely (10%). Just my gut feel. Anyone >got better statistics? Being "never explained" because they just lie around in forgotten newspapers, or because possible explanations are conflicted and unproven, is not the same as being a reliable Unknown. This is the distinction between Unknown and Insufficient Information, which is a basic methodological issue thrashed out by early investigators donkeys years ago and really nobody who has any perspective on the problem should need reminding about that today. But perhaps it's because, as Don Ledger remarked recently, these days it's all "do it yourself" - Blue Book and civilian counterparts with well-organised and well-vetted investigator networks have gone or declined, and reporting routes no longer end up in a clearing-house of systematically filtered investigations but are frayed out and dissipated in collections of half-digested stories, whilst at the same time our opportunities to hear every last babbled syllable of this breaking UFO news "as it happens" 24/7 are multiplied by instant email, list posts and internet sites. So it is that most of the reports you are including in your ill-defined "dataset" are, as I conjectured, stories remembered "from newspapers, Internet news sources, Filer's Files" etc (your words below). Forming general impressions from this flood of raw stuff is risky. Those impressions can only be validly transferred onto the residue of filtered Unknowns if you believe before hand that the hard(ish)-core Unknowns are just the tail end of the same statistical population. Well as ufologist we entertain (presumably, don't we?) a reasonable doubt that this is true, in which case you have to use a little more finesse in the way you make inferences from one group to another - i.e., because the population of all reports (Knowns, plus Insufficient Information, plus Unknowns) contains a high percentage of objects that have the characteristics of stars (say) doesn't mean that the population of knowns has the same proportion of star-like characteristics (vide, e.g., the classic Battelle study of early Blue Book cases that Stan Friedman likes to bring up). All respectable researchers of all shades of opinion have agreed on the basis of decades of collective experience that the majority of unfiltered raw reports which get to the stage of being investigated prove to be explainable. This is another absolutely basic principle. If even this has not been learned, then maybe nothing has. But you can surely see that though you might read a lot of stories over the years where people see lights but get disappointed when they phone their local airport for radar confirmation, there's a long way to go before concluding that the UFO phenomena in the Unknown category are "radar transparent", and this has to do with more than anti- clutter filters. As I tried to explain, the first filter to apply is the statistical one that most lights people see in the sky, if investigated, do turn out to be Knowns, so you _have_to_ use the working assumption that probably the majority of those stories you've read in newspapers and on the internet would - if they were to be thoroughly investigated - turn out to be stars, planets, meteors, advertising planes, and what have you. This is really very uncontroversial stuff from paragraph one of any sensible scientifically-oriented study that's ever been written in the last 50 years. Only having eliminated those Knowns would you then be in a position to start examining the residue of reports for a possible unexplained failure rate in local airport radar detection of TRUFOs. At this stage, after taking account of the various psychological/operational factors that might make a "no" report over the phone to an exciteable witness more likely than a "yes" (staffing and workload, nuisance factor, reluctance to get involved etc) you _might_ end up with a reasonable suspicion that there ought to have been more radar confirmations than were admitted. Might. You'd _then_ start thinking about limitations endemic to these particular types of active radar and the ATC role in which they are being used (including various anti-clutter techniques that might play a part), and _maybe_ you would conclude that there was a real failure rate in detecting TRUFOs using (in such an ad hoc way) these labour-intensive, isolated, monostatic, SSR- transponder-dominated, single-frequency, microwave pulse radars, with very short dwell-times, very low sample rates, minimum ranges, anti-clutter polarisation filters, etc etc.. And if you did, well, you might feel that a better result was possible using (in a systematic way) computer-networked, multistatic, non-transponder-dominated, multiple-frequency, meter-length, continuous wave radars, with indefinite dwell- times, high sample rates, no minimum range and no unwanted target filters. Oh hey, that's a new passive radar array isn't it? So your anecdotal argument against passive radar, when deconstructed, rationalised and reconstructed at its best, becomes, if anything, an argument in favour of passive radar. >Who takes the reins and answers UFO cases? Does their work get >published? Most published UFO reports are left to flap in the >wind. Exactly so. As I said, that doesn't make them strong evidence for anything. That's the point. >>>and, in the >>>description of the report, "someone" calls the tower to >>>ask if anything is on radar. >>What confidence can I have that this "dataset" of unidentified >>stories you have read in unidentified places represents a >>population of well-reported and well-investigated visual >>Unknowns from which we can infer anything reliably >>about the radar-visibility of TRUFOs near airports? >Well, given that I said I have done not statistical analysis, >then I see no reason to be so critical. Isn't it a fair question? Why is it unreasonably critical of me to ask you to justify your statistical assertions with statistical arguments? >Do I write down every >UFO case I read from newspapers, Internet news sources, Filer's >Files, Davenport's database? Sorry, I don't have such >discipline. But ANYONE can acquire a gut feel (given _some_ >long term memory skills) of what one reads. The irritation of >"nothing was on radar" did not occur with only _one_ UFO report >(news story), but occurred over years. I have no need to >"prove" this. Oh well then, let's all just agree to accept one another's gut feelings and dump all this tedious insistence on detailed case studies and logical clarity. Why bother with instrumented research either? It's all just annoying pedantry when we can rely on gut feelings isn't it? Of course you don't have to "prove" that you have acquired a poor impression of radar UFO evidence. That's just a subjective self-report that we are bound to accept. But if you want other people to trade in their different impressions for your own new one, then of course you do have to be prepared to "prove" it - or at least to substantiate it with a reasonable case - otherwise who cares what you say? >>>I would suspect that >95% of the radar >>>operators say nothing is on radar to explain the UFO >>>sighting AND nothing is even on the radar. >>Then we need proportionately better reason, in general, >>to include these incidents in our dataset. How do I know >>that your >>sources are not newpaper stories and paperback >>pot-boilers full of the various assorted balloons, stars, >>kites, birds, ground >>lights, meteors and what have you that make up the >>bulk of raw reports? Just because a story gets published >>and "somebody" says it can't be explained doesn't make >>it so. Why should I be _surprised_ that "95%" of your >>cases lack radar corroboration? >I am not saying that every UFO report even tries to call the >airport radar. Clearly they don't. Where on earth do I suggest that you are saying this? >But of those that do call, the response is the same. Oh dear. After having conceded that your impression gained from stories of airport radar no-shows was probably unsupported and anecdotal, you're now back to your old opinion I think. Somehow you now "can't believe" even the admirable Balaskas any more: >Balaskas says they filter out such data. I "remember" reading >that stationary objects (helicopters) >disappear from such radar. You're thinking of Moving Target Indicators, which are a standard anti-clutter tool on almost all surveillance pulse radars. >Pretty lame behavior, but maybe they >have their reasons for doing this. Not lame behaviour, misunderstanding. MTI or MTD is designed to eliminate static clutter, not helicopters, and in general use is not going to eliminate helicopters because the phase detection is sensitive to very tiny interpulse range differences measurable in fractions of wavelength (centimetre). In the first place the bulk drift or bulk oscillation of a hovering helicopter will rarely be so small that the doppler MTI will "see" no phase shift, and so it wouldn't eliminate it, unless you badly wanted it to; and in the second place, even a helicopter hovering utterly motionless would return phase shifted pulses due to the blade speeds of lift and tail rotors and these would defeat a zero-doppler filter The real problems with MTI come in because you risk eliminating some high-speed targets as well, due to tangential fade - that is, the filter works on the _range_rate, and the coarser your MTI threshold the more often targets on non-radial tracks with arbitrary speeds will show a sub-threshold range rate. These will then drop off the screen. So to prevent aircraft under your control dropping out at inconvenient moments you aren't often going to set the threshold very high. On the other hand you don't want it very low either, because clutter echoes have a certain doppler bandwidth - i.e. although absolutely fixed ground clutter would be removed by a zero-doppler filter in reality the ground has things like waving trees on it, sea clutter has a component due to moving waves, and hail and snow showers contain moving particles. So in practice you'd set your MTI to reject targets with radial velocities less than a few knots and accept a non-zero but small rate of aircraft drop-out due to tangential fade. (A more sophisticated system used on many radars is Moving Target Detection. This uses a bank of filters to analyse the doppler bandwidth of signals into amplitudes as a function of frequency, and the narrow peaks caused by displacements of point targets can then be discriminated from the broader spreads due to area targets with internal motion, so planes can be separated from weather or ground clutter. - apologies for the digression but I find this stuff interesting!} >So the only UFOs that could >show up on airport radar are those that behave like airplanes. >Somehow I can't believe this. Well surprise surprise, I agree with you, up to a point! I think Balaskas' comment that "modern airport radars have filters to eliminate everything not behaving within the usual characteristics of commercial aircraft" is overstated, although it is a factor - some anti-clutter techniques might prejudice the detectability of some types of anomalous targets some of the time. But the most significant thing about modern ATC radar is the dependence on SSR transponder identification codes, and the consequent demotion of skin-paint targets to second-class status during periods of heavy workload. As I mentioned in another post, it appears that these skin paint codes are sometimes simply turned off. >But all this shows is that is is >really important to understand the instrument data source which >I think most people do not (at least I didn't) who read these >vexing UFO "not on radar" reports. I couldn't argue with that. Consider this question too: Would you care to guess at the number of reports of odd radar echoes where somebody went outside to look at the sky and saw nothing visually? These are stories that are counter-instances of your thesis, and they are common enough that one ought not to ignore them. Of course, most of these turn out to be rather weak cases that might be UFOs or might be explainable as AP or multiple-trip echoes or noise tracks etc, and they get forgotten. Just like the generality of no-radar visual reports that you adduced as evidence, in fact. It would be interesting to see a comparison of the statistics. >>>I think if there were co-incidental unexplained radar >>>contact this would be a VERY big deal and really be >>>headline news. Instead,we "always" get the "nothing >>>shows up on radar" story. >>Not if we read the right sources, we don't. You appear to >>be looking at newspaper headlines. You should be >>looking at sources like Blue Book. >Its been a while since I looked at good _old_ Blue Book. The point is that it would help to focus our argument on some coherent "dataset" whose properties can be relatively well defined and where there is some consistency of reporting and investigative methods and protocols. To dismiss the data as "old" is no argument at all. Your alternative seems to be no data, just vague impressions. >>I can't argue with your "always" and "95%" very >>effectively because, although you said you wanted to >>talk in percentages and >>not absolutes you don't quantify "always" and 95% of >>an unidentified population of unstated size is meangless. >>If you'd combed through Brad Sparks' catalogue of BB >>Unknowns, for example, and claimed an excess of >>anomalous radar "failures" >>therein, then we could have something to talk about. >Actually, you said I should "feel free to talk in percentages". >So actually, I am trying to accede to your request for sake of >discussion. Oh so I'm urging you unwillingly to talk in percentages and therefore you can't be held responsible? You said (10/29/05) "I can't really talk in absolutes when it comes to UFOs. I can only talk in percentages". Fine. However you did _not_ talk in percentages, but continued to assert that the number of cases where airport radars failed to pick up TRUFOs was statistically significant without offering any quantities or statistical reasoning at all. That's why I had to invite you to talk in meaningful %, but actually you still haven't. >If you have done the statistic analysis verifying the >worthiness of radar as applied to UFO research, then it >should be valuable data to support Davenport's quest for >passive radar funding. Remember that the negative statistical argument (the proportion of visual sightings supported by radar reports is anomalously small, indicating - you claimed - that radar was probably _not_ a worthy tool for UFO research) was introduced by you, not me. It is you who should have "done the analysis" isn't it? For my part, although I have spent a lot of time on studying and cataloguing radar cases I haven't (yet) done any meaningful statistical work on a large scale (only a few crude breakdowns). But I've criticised the logical foundations of your argument, meaning I have no good reason at present to expect that the results of a study would support you. You do have such an expectation (that old "gut feel"), but it's up to you to support your own case with statistics. >>Even if we were to grant (for the sake if argument) that >>your unspecified population of reports is thoroughly >>filtered and only includes well-reported and well- >>investigated cases, we would have to exclude other >>reasons why radar confirmation may not be >>forthcoming from local airports before we get to >>speculations about "radar transparent UFO technology". >Okay, as I said Balaskas explanation seems to address this. Only in part. My own prior answer to you already addressed this very point - within the wider point that any real detection failure rate is nested within several layers of technical, operational and reportorial issues and would need to be dug out, not guessed at. >>>My whole point is that radar _may_ not be the panacea >>>everyone wants it to be regarding UFOs. It certainly >>>should not be the reason people _don't_ try other >>>UFO field research tools because >>>they are "waiting" for passive or even active radar. >>True, it shouldn't be an excuse. But I don't know who >>wants radar to be a panacea. >I think Sparks previous responses showed that he felt passive >radar was the ONLY way to go. Also, the lack of instrumented >UFO field research in recent decades (based on laziness I >expect) will not be addressed/helped by people expecting a >new device to come someday to "solve everything". There has been instrumented field research. Ray Stanford's is a case in point. Maybe the results - negative and/or positive - have for some reason just not been discussed and disseminated enough. I know there are claims of significant images (I believe Ray was in Ireland recently to talk about recent successes but I haven't heard any detail). But to address your corollary: passive radar is not a "new device that may come someday" except in the same sense as your computerised optical triangulation stations. Both already exist; both already have commercial versions. Passive radar has some proven utility, more proven potential; indeed as you point out there may already be latent UFO-related data in some of the research results already kicking about. Dedicated implementation for UFO studies is awaited in both cases, and in both cases would require some further work which is almost entirely in the software. >>Working from the best evidence available >>to us there appear to be interesting phenomena in the >>atmosphere which are at least some of the time radar >>reflective. Some of the best evidence for these >>phenomena _is_already_ radar evidence. But we don't >>know enough because those relatively few >>fortuitous radarscreen incidents that we get to know about >>are remote from us and imperfectly reported even in >>the best cases. There's a place for optical tools as >>well as passive and active radar. But the potentia; >>advantages and accessibility of a passive radar array and >>the richness of cross-correlated doppler >>information it offers could, if we get lucky, dramatically >>increase what we know. And remember that any result >>is a result, even a negative one. >Fine, it couldn't hurt to try active and passive radar. But I >fear that people will think that unless they have such >appliances, its no use doing _any_ research. I don't think so. I don't think many people have any real interest in or appreciation of the idea, more's the pity. Those who already "know" what UFOs are (or aren't) and are happy swapping the latest anecdotes will only be interested at the stage where results are already in, when they'll begin crowing or whingeing depending on whether their prejudices are flattered or not. The ones who are already doing serious research (of various other kinds) are going to carry on doing it. They aren't going to go gooey-eyed over the prospect of optical tracking or passive radar and give up. >>>The cases of where there was an actual radar blip >>>matching a TRUFO visual sighting seem very small. >>>..... <5% based on my gut feel of reading >>>reported cases. I will be happily corrected by >>>those wielding UFO databases. >>This is 5% of what seems to be an unfiltered set of raw >>stories you read where "someone" might have mentioned >>calling their local airport when they saw something. I've >>read those stories too. But we should expect most of >>these cases to be Knowns anyway. >"Most"! Really! Such presumptions! Well, I won't ask for >percentages. You can. I refer you to any of the major reputable sources in the literature for estimates. If you prefer guesstimates, they will all say "most", and that's all I need to establish here. As I said, this is basic introductory stuff >>A meaningful radar failure rate would have to be argued >>from careful study of putative Unknowns where one has >>strong reasons for believing that a phenomenon was >>present which ought to have been detected, and this >>depends on numerous factors related not just to the >>phenomenon but to the radar type and >>function and operating/reporting issues. >Yes, but unless this data is provided to investors to show some >chance of success, why should they invest in passive or any >radar? Pardon me, but _you_ are the one who advanced a case, without providing data, as to why they _shouldn't_ invest! If you now accept that your case was flawed, then by all means, yes, please, let us move ahead to discuss data that might argue a positive case for passive radar (not "any radar"). I just don't sense any real interest or encouragement from your side! >>Bottom line is we "know" that UFOs are potentially both >>optical emitters and radar reflectors, but we also "know" >>that they may not be either of these all the time, and we >>know next to nothing about whether they are isotropic >>emitters/reflector, what ranges of RCS or luminance we >>have to deal with etc. So there's plenty of room for >>instrumentation at all wavelengths. All tools will >>have limits (optical triangulation of light sources limited >>essentially to nighttime for example) and would benefit >>from complimentary approaches. A network of >>computer-controlled cameras and the latest sophisticated >>image processing software might well capture amazing >>quantities of latent information, just like passive radar, >>but would it really be "cheap"? Both need investment >>of confidence, time, energy and money. I don't >>see that one excludes the other. >I concede ANY radar would be nice to have. We are talking about a very particular type of radar for particular reasons that have been listed often enough. Continuing to bring in "any radar" is just muddying the waters. >Lidar, acoustic, EMF >data too would be nice. Cost is key to getting somebody to do >something. You see all these amateur ghost hunters with their >dinky EMF meters, but at least they are trying! Optical systems >for UFO research may cost as much as $10K for three >triangualtion sites, but radar is much more expensive! Is it? How much more expensive? It all depends on the scope of your objective, it seems to me. Obviously a massively-integrated continent-wide real-time 3-D tracking network could take serious time and money (as would an equivalent optical tracking network - needing more than three sites!), but covering a flap area need not be costly. The hardware is cheap. Using Celldar, for instance, you could provide hard evidence of radio-scattering objects flying in a local area (coverage cells of each mast in the order of 10 miles across) to corroborate visual reports by means of a few cellphones, some yagi aerials, an analogue- digital converter and a desktop PC. Perhaps this could be started as a small-scale trial, and then expanded ultimately indefinitely with fast internet connections as and when further time and money permit. >$10K is not too bad for someone (retired) to while away his >time trying to gather data on UFOs. $100K is for the big >league, which never seems to step up to the plate for some reason. I don't know where $100k comes from. But as I said, it may not be necessary to do everything at once. And of course we're not considering here the posthumous use of latent data in academic research datasets etc that might be done without even the cheap hardware. >>>Also, obviously the historical UFO cases of optical >>>and radar confirmation should be used to show that it can >>>happen, but also we need to show why added radar (active >>>or passive) will make any difference when these past >>>cases did not change the world as we hope the passive >>>radar would when tied to optical data. >>I already discussed some specific possible advantages of a >>passive radar array in other posts. >Maybe so, but the context of my question was not addressed. >Look at all the "great" optical+radar sightings/reports/ cases >from whatever terrific respectible source you want to name. >What difference does adding radar to the data make or even >having it? Did it make any difference to those cases? Of course it does. It makes a difference to me. More importantly it made a difference to many scientists becoming active in the field, partly as a result of these cases, who have themselves made a difference. If there were no such cases it would be a less physically intriguing problem. How can you possibly say that well-reported official radar-visual cases are pointless, whereas internet anecdotes about Mrs. Jones seeing a light and phoning the local airport are a meaningful dataset? You want to "change the world": Have photographs of funny lights "changed the world"? According to your definition, no. What then is the point of your optical tracking stations? What difference does it make to have more images of funny lights? Think carefully about your answer . . . >UFOs are STILL an unaccepted, fringe thing, even with >the few decent optical/radar cases, so apparently having >this kind of data makes NO difference. "this kind of data". You see, I dont think you really grasp the operational and physical difference between getting occasional operator reports from some active radar, and a computer cross- correlated datastream from a passive radar array. The advantages of data harvested tyhrough a networked passive radar array, compared with relying on picking up sporadic incidents occurring within range of existing monostatic radars and which happen to get reported to us, are enormous. I refuse to rehearse every damn detail yet again. Read up. But the analogy should be obvious: surveillance with a passive multistatic radar array is to sporadic monostatic radar reports as a computer-controlled optical tracking network is to sporadic monoscopic photo images. >>>... was merely an example of investing most or alot of >>>your resources into a measuring device which has a low >>>probability of catching the phenomenon. The same >>>thing occurs in the medical world where we could go >>>into the doctors office with a cold but >>>they could test you for every known disease. >>The same thing occurs with a computerised optical >>tracking network. >True, but how much would you pay? Are you willing to waste >>$100K for no results rather than $10K for no results? Its a >cost benefit ratio sort of thing. We don't really have reliable figures fdor any real-world costed proposal. I don't know where your $100k comes from. I think something could grow organically from small-scale trials. The whole point of passive radar is its cheap hardware and network flexibility. You don't have to build averything at once. Also there's the academic partnership angle etc. >>The answer to this problem (which militates against any >>investment in UFO studies, radar or optical) may lie in >>exploiting existing data - as we both agree - recovered as a >>side-benefit from more conventional research. >True, unless they filter out the data we want! Which Balaskas >seems to imply is done in his post. Well Balaskas was obviously talking (as I explained) about ATC radars, not research radars, and most importantly _not_about_passive_radars! The design goals of ATC radars are specialised. Other active radars are specialised in different ways. Multistatic passive radar is a different ball game yet again. You obviously aren't going to use research data gained from inappropriate instruments designed to filter out the data you want. What would be the point of that? >>Since you accept that we are talking about open-source >>info on unclassified white technology which is already >>implemented for civilian research and commercial >>products, can you explain how "the government" is >>supposed to make it difficult and >>undesirable for billionaires to fund it? I just can't quite >>see this. >Just because something is "open-source" does not give it a free >rein for anyone to do. Chemical formulae for explosives can be >had from an encyclopedia, but does the ATF want you to make it >by the ton? Tell me what part of a Celldar passive radar system falls foul of federal statutes in your country? Is it the phones? The yagi aerials? The desktop PC? And in case you're confused about radio emissions, I say once again - a major benefit of passive radar is the complete absence of licensing issues because you don't emit anything. <snip discussion about the motives of billionaires> >>Can a useful program of computerised optical tracking be done >>"right now"? Or does this, too, still require getting funding >>and cooperation from interested sponsors and academic or >>industry partners to develop and implement? >Oh yes, it can be done right now! Using present day computers >and cameras and software. Sure a little work must be done on >the software end, but the nice thing is that it is easy to >simulate the data streams from the cameras to test the >software adequately prior to automated use. >Academic access would always be nice, but it is not needed. All >you need is someone with ~$10K extra in his bank account and >adequate sites (good field of view for three sites... if your >own big ranch, no problem, but for us city folk its a bother >getting three sites to set up at a large enough baseline >without folk stealing/tampering with the equipment) and >adequate time to assemble the equipment. You don't even >need realtime processing to start with, but it would be nice to >evolve into it as experience is gained. Well you know, all of this sounds excellent and if you substitute "antennas" for "cameras" I think you describe a pretty good case for a passive radar array. >Regarding the software, its pretty simple and based on motion >detection methods. Here is an example. >http://sonotaco.com/ >http://sonotaco.com/sample/ >"UFOCapture is a Motion Detect Time Shift Video Capture >software. UFOCapture automatically starts recording at a few >seconds before the start of a movement, and ends a few seconds >after the end of the movement. UFOCapture inputs video signals >via DirectX video capture devices, such as USBcam, DVcam, PCI- >video input board, PCI-TV- tuner. Using PCI-video input board, >any video source ,such as IR-Video camera, Ultra Hi Sensitivity >Video camera can be used. UFOCapture runs on Windows XP (over >2GHz CPU is required). UFOCapturePro is a shareware. 30Days >free trial. (AVI/WMV 720*480 max with 4 detect areas ,Noise >reduction modes .....) UFOCaptureFree is a freeware (AVI 320*240)" >Thanks for your information about passive/active radar. I admit >its hard to seep into my brain, but if I read it a few more >times and think about it maybe I can "get" it. You're welcome. The UFOCapture design sounds fascinating. I could easily imagine a relatively cheap systen of automated optical _and_ passive radar detection working hand in hand, each vastly augmented by the other. It probably only needs one well-
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Theory and Pragmatism [was: Gill Sighting] - From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:52:28 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:35:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism [was: Gill Sighting] - >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 21:02:37 +0000 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:59:22 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 20:16:32 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting <snip> Sigh, John, >I make no apology for Magonia being theory-driven. Thank you for conceding the obvious. Beyond that, I'll try to keep this as short as I can, and since we have dealt with just about everything before, I'll spare readers further discussion of most of it. >We have had >fifty years of the wonderful, detailed case studies of the types >you adore. I have read hundreds of them over the 37 years I have >been involved in ufology. In themselves they can be interesting, >and they certainly describe many puzzling cases. But where, >after all that effort, have they got us? Precisely nowhere. This is silly. We have documented extraordinary anomalies, despite the severe constraints under which ufologists operate. In other words, we are dealing with a complex scientific problem without access to science's resources. One would like to know what other complex scientific problem has been solved by unfunded nonscientists, and this is not to mention fierce resistance and ridicule that discourage professionals from involving themselves in UFO research projects. (That's a subject, by the way, we at CUFOS are particularly expert, from our experience of dealing with scientists and academics who have quietly come to us with their horror stories.) Still and all, progress in documentation and understanding, if of course no final answers, has been accomplished. When, as will happen inevitably, science decides to devote more than the six months of scientific study that it has given the phenomenon since 1947, progress and understanding will accelerate, and the literary-criticism approach favored by Magonia will be mostly forgotten, remembered only as an odd episode in the history of the various psychosocial responses to the phenomenon. >>Convention wisdom wins, and discussion ends. That has nothing to >>do with "critical attitudes" and everything to do with the sort >>of dogmatic orthodoxy that David Hufford wittily calls the >>"tradition of disbelief." >Mention of David Hufford, five points. Amazingly, I have also >read a lot David Hufford's writings, and he's not talking about >what you seem to want to make us think he's writing about. In fact, as I repeat yet again - I take it you can't actually be bothered to _read_ what I've written - you're flat wrong (as usual). Once more: Hufford, whom I have met personally and with whom I have corresponded, has told me, to the contrary, that I am among the few who actually understood his argument. He expressed amusement - deeming it evidence that the argument in his book The Terror That Comes in the Night is right on the money - to see those who, like you, held his argument to be a _validation_, not a devastating criticism, of the disbelief tradition. I urge all Listfolk to read this book, which is still in print though published in 1982 (by the University of Pennsylvania Press). It is one of the most important ever written on the subject of anomalies, society, and science, and it could not be more un- Magonian in spirit, and that's not just because of its emphasis on the empirical as opposed to the theoretical. To the contrary, Hufford demonstrates why adherence to dubious "conventional" theories may hinder our understanding of the true causes of unusual experiences. Hufford would, for example, render into your mincemeat your complacent rejection of all eyewitness testimony bearing on anomalous claims. He and I think very much alike, and he has praised my reading of his book (expressed initially in a long essay/review in the March 1983 issue of Fate) as well as my general approach to ufology and anomalistics. Here are Hufford's words from the back cover of The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd ed. Allow me to quote: "Clark's UFO Encyclopedia, a work of monumental proportions, brings together an enormous quantity of material, well organized, lucidly written and accompanied by extensive lists of references. Clark not only surveys reports and publications; he provides very solid discussion, analyzes and weighs arguments, and places events in their historical context. This book will be an indispensable reference work for many, many years." (Speaking of which, I might mention here that there is a possiblity that, at long last, the complete UFO Encyclopedia may be reissued in an affordable trade-paperback edition. If this happens, I will of course so inform Listfolk.) >I have said before, Jerry, that I would be most interested in >publishing an article on the role of ridicule in the development >of ufology. Maybe you could suggest someone who might like to >write it. Now, how many years has Magonia been published, claiming to represent a psychological and sociological approach, _without one article that discussed the huge role of ridicule_? Does one need further proof that the pretentiously monickered "psychosocial hypothesis" is just a polite name for pedestrian debunking? And, one might add, ridicule, of which Magonia has applied more than its share to the discussion of UFO issues? I guess it makes sense that since Magonia is part of the problem, it is not going to critique the problem. Since we've been over and over the other issues you raise, I'll just let them go this time, out of consideration for everybody else's time and patience. Suffice it to say I remain as unmoved and unpersuaded as ever by your assorted beliefs, assertions, dives, ducks, and contortions. I have addressed them many times in the past, in the unlikely case that readers will have a burning desire to look up the relevant postings in the archives. There is also my entry "Psychosocial Hypothesis" in the UFO Encyclopedia 2 (pp. 749-59). >>And now let's remind Listfolk of the posting you are again >>neglecting to address or even acknowledge. It's here: >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/oct/m28-031.shtml >I did comment on this, but either my email didn't transmit >properly or was not posted on the List for some reason. I cannot >actually see anything in the posting that needs a reply, as it >seems to be Mr Sandow's opinion on my lack of knowledge, to >which he is perfectly entitled, even in the absence of empirical >evidence. I can't resist quoting Greg Sandow's words which you claim - with, one presumes, a straight face (or perhaps you have a deeper, more ironic humor than I give you credit for) - do not require any substantive reply. I'll let the rest of you judge: "Often enough in the past I've noted how believers in the psychosocial hypothesis ignore standard social science methodology. All, of course, while claiming to be rational and scientific. They start with assumptions about how widespread UFO imagery and ideas might be. Assumptions, of course, that they haven't checked. They don't even think of seeking measurements of how prevalent these things might be. Then they make assumptions about how ideas and images spread, and how they influence people. Assumptions, that, once again, might have no basis in standard social science theory. They don't think to check the literature to find out how social scientists have theorized about these things, or how data may or may not support particular theories. And now, for a change, we have some actual research. Data! Facts!" [Greg refers to the discussion of the phrase 'mothership' in Father Gill's testimony concerning his famous UFO sighting, where several of us were able to show why Gill's assertion that he didn't get the phrase from UFO jargon is quite likely true. On the other hand, debunkers, on this List and elsewhere, had claimed - without being able to provide supporting evidence - that he could have gotten it only from UFO literature.] "It's just amazing how cavalier skeptics can be about social science, sociology in particular. (Though their ignorance of psychology - sometimes extending even to a lack of basic common sense about people - is pretty notable, too. If psychology is a social science, that is; not sure that's quite the proper classification.). If I started blabbering about physics the way
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:58:29 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:39:09 -0500 Subject: Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman - Boone >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 01:38:27 -0400 >Subject: Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman >>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 16:05:33 -0000 >>Subject: Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 18:42:03 -0400 >>>Subject: The Klass Letter On Friedman >>>I was emailed [as were many of you] a message by Richard >>>Dolan re his posting of the letter Phill Klass sent to The >>>Herzberg Institute [Canada] badmouthing Stan Friedman's >>>planned move to Canada. A scan of that letter letter was >>>posted on Rich Dolan's his website. >>>http://keyholepublishing.com <snip> >>As I say, Klass' letter was uncalled for, but Mr Lehmberg >>should now correct his gross dis-, or mis-, information about >>what Klass actually wrote. If they were taken from Richard >>Dolan's presentation at a conference, then Dolan should also >>issue a correction. >Why? Rich Dolan presented the letter for you to read. It >amazes >me as to why people [usually those in debunk mode] get so >huffy >when Klass's inappropriate behavior become an issue. Either >this >man was off the rails or he was being driven by commitment. I >hope no one suggests that it was all in order to bring the truth >to the people. Well said there Don Ledger! What about CSICOP's response to this Klass letter? In full, who was Klass associated with/working for at this time? Anyone from these groups, magazines etc. respond to this revelation of his character? Because of this letter, everything, everything Klass put forth is now officially invalidated far as I'm concerned. Dolan has proven that there's still information yet to be brought to light. If this Klass letter is any indication of what's still buried in some file box somewhere we're all due for some awesome surprises that will once and for all show who is and has been behind the blatant attacks and coverups of ufologists, abductees, witnesses, and whistleblowers. Ironically, thanks to Dolan, Klass's own words sealed the fate of his dark legacy and validated Mr. Friedman and other ufologists in one fell swoop.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: C.D. Jackson & Robert E. Hohmann? - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 11:07:32 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:41:44 -0500 Subject: Re: C.D. Jackson & Robert E. Hohmann? - Friedman >From: Glennys Mackay <gem60.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 10:15:14 +1000 >Subject: Re: C.D. Jackson & Robert E. Hohmann? >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 09:44:10 -0400 >>Subject: C.D. Jackson & Robert E. Hohmann? >>I am having trouble digging out background information on these >>two IBM engineers (C.D. Jackson and Robert E. Hohmann) who met >>with Betty and Barney Hill in the early 1960s. They may be dead. >>I know they published a paper at an American Rocket Society >>Meeting in 1962, but not much else. Should be resume type info >>somewhere. >Hi Stanton, >While lecturing in Dallas last September, a lady gave me a DVD >of the last interview that was done with Berry Hill before she >passed. >The lady was the one who interviewed and recorded their meeting. >It is a very interesting interview, we are led to believe that >there was only one main encounter, the way she tells it, they >were ongoing up until she passed away. I will check to see if >she makes any mention to these to people and get back to you. Glennys: I am working to do an update with Kathy Marden, Betty's niece. I know that Hohmann and Jackson met with Betty and Barney early on and did some further investigation. They were the ones who, having heard the story, pointed out that there seemed to be some time missing and mentioned hypnosis.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 UFO Photos That Resemble Everting Sphere From: Erik Albrektson <jaspub.nul> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 11:02:19 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:43:14 -0500 Subject: UFO Photos That Resemble Everting Sphere Having viewed innumerable videos and photos of alleged UFO's in recent years I have been struck by a certain similarity between many of them. There appears to be a distinct subset of UFO's that can be described as a generally spherical or oblong fuzzy blob of light that continually evolves through a succession of shapes, all of them variations on a sphere (frequently squashed) surrounded by a belt of other spheres or oblong globes. Those of you who pay attention to this stuff know what I'm talking about. The link takes you to a remarkable animation of an everting sphere (a sphere that turns itself inside out). Probably is pure coincidence but I have seen UFO photos that resemble virtually every stage of an everting sphere.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Theory and Pragmatism [was: Gill Sighting] - From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 12:56:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:47:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism [was: Gill Sighting] - >From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:00:59 -0000 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:59:22 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >Yes, but you can't leave out the theory without being logically >inconsistent. You can't make any sense out of the data you are >studying unless you have some kind of theory. And if you do not >subscribe to the ETH, how could you write the following? >>Spare us the transparent fiction of a "less critical attitude to >>witnesses." In fact, I see no evidence of that at all. What I do >>see on your end is simple, endless repetitive rejection of >>anything you don't want to hear. Witness or witnesses report a >>structured craftlike object with extraordinary performance >>characteristics, and all you need to declare is that he, she, or >>they couldn't have seen any such thing and thus were in error. >If you say they could have seen such things, and they were not >misperceptions, then where could these "structured craftlike >objects" be from but some other planet? It seems it's okay to >_imply_ the ETH so long as you don't spell it out. However, you >can't have it both ways; either you take these "structured >craft" reports as being literally true and thus subscribe to the >ETH, or you regard them as misperceptions and subscribe to the >PSH. Either way, why not be open about it? John, I can just imagine the horse manure that would be forthcoming [little green men, space brothers, space aliens] if Jerry said he subscribed to the ETH. That of course means the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis as an explanation for the phenomenon often referred to as UFOs [that's flying saucers for you, John] or any other deprecating handle you can hang on them. In fact many UFOs can be ascribed to the ETH; they then become IFOs such as space junk, meteors, fireballs, rocket boosters and decaying satellites. If you are trying to get someone to admit that they believe that those phenomenon defined as being unexplainable, intelligently controlled, non terrestrial objects, are intelligently controlled then I suggest you use ETIH [Extraterrestrial Intelligence Hypotheseis] as the term more likely to to define the what's behind the unexplained. If it's any help, I believe that the hard core sightings [in particular airborne encounters - and go research them yourself] which can't be explained as the prosaic are likely the result of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: C.D. Jackson & Robert E. Hohmann? - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 01:17:38 +1100 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:52:14 -0500 Subject: Re: C.D. Jackson & Robert E. Hohmann? - Chalker >From: Glennys Mackay <gem60.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 10:15:14 +1000 >Subject: Re: C.D. Jackson & Robert E. Hohmann? >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 09:44:10 -0400 >>Subject: C.D. Jackson & Robert E. Hohmann? >>I am having trouble digging out background information on these >>two IBM engineers (C.D. Jackson and Robert E. Hohmann) who met >>with Betty and Barney Hill in the early 1960s. They may be dead. >>I know they published a paper at an American Rocket Society >>Meeting in 1962, but not much else. Should be resume type info >>somewhere. >While lecturing in Dallas last September, a lady gave me a DVD >of the last interview that was done with Berry Hill before she >passed. >The lady was the one who interviewed and recorded their meeting. >It is a very interesting interview, we are led to believe that >there was only one main encounter, the way she tells it, they >were ongoing up until she passed away. I will check to see if >she makes any mention to these to people and get back to you. I'm been busy of late and thus have missed parts of this discussion, but the Jackson & Hohmann saga is addressed in some detail in an interesting piece by Mike Swords in the International UFO Reporter (IUR), Vol. 29, No. 4, July 2005, "Radio Signals from Space, Alien Probes, and Betty Hill". Apologises if this has already been brought up.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Passive Radar - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:10:54 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:58:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Passive Radar - Smith >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 20:34:43 -0000 >Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:04:08 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>Well, I must have misunderstood/misrembered the technical >>reports I read. If you say that the passive radar is really >>detecting the meteor bodies thermselves, then I will go along >>with you until I read otherwise when I get a chance to look >>again at the literature. >All you have to do is read what I just wrote there in plain >sight! Obviously the absolute polar opposite of what you are >imagining I said. I'll repeat it: "Obviously tiny individual >dust particles hundreds of miles away are not going to be >detected by any radar, active or passive, unless they are >causing plasma trails, but this is just irrelevant." The active >clause in that sentence remains the last one. Alright already! According to you, passive radar does not need to rely upon an ionization trail to detect a meteor. Clearly, such trails should help "see" objects, large or small (dust). However, I think the problem here (or at least that I am having) is that I do not know the "resolution" of this radar as a function of distance. As it currently exists, can passive radar really be used to detect "alien UFO type sized UFO bodies" at satellite orbit distances or is it limited to 50 miles or what? What is the size vs distance function regarding passive radar? >Nick's focus on the meteor radar >(which as I pointed out is not a passive radar anyway) seems to >have fixated you on this issue. I've been trying to explain why >it is a side issue so as to encourage discussion of passive >radar, but not very effectively as it seems the >misunderstandings just get consolidated. Okay. Meteor "radar" is not passive radar, although passive radar can be used to detect meteors. Fine, lets move on to the size versus distance capability of passive radar. >>All I can say is that numerous witness cases show such lights >>going vertically. Optically, we have a alot of support for UFO >>behavior that can happen. >Well, all _I_ can say is that numerous reports have radar >targets travelling at thousands of mph or hovering or following >aircraft etc. etc. We have support for radar UFO behaviour that >can happen, too. If you recall, I mentioned that certain >features of witness accounts suggest ionisation effects only as >one (minor) example of evidence that might favour long-wave >passive radar cover over microwave active radar, but you >objected that we needed prior "assurance" that such effects >existed before this could count as an argument in favour of >passive radar. Yet witness evidence of lights going vertically >is not an assurance that future optical tracking will validate >this behaviour. I hope you see the underlying logical >equivalence of our positions now. I think it best to leave out ionization because you say it is not needed for passive radar. Lets just assume that any ionization that occurs is too infrequent to be consequential in trying to design field research experiments. You are right that just because something happened in the past does not mean it will happen in the future. But obviously you have frequency/percentage of specific types of occurances to rely upon. Given the bulk of optical sightings and the mere smattering (you call "numerous") of radar cases (but which are correlated to optical objects), I still think there is a cost benefit ratio such that maximum payback is via optical data with reduced levels of payback for radar, EMF, gravity,etc (in roughly that order). Its not that active or passive radar is not worth doing, but that in a cost restricted environment that the field of Ufology finds itself, you must spend frugally. >>I don't want to discourage. >>It would be great to get a broad swath of data from every kind >>of instrument at eveyr frequency. But who will fund this >>effort? Its always been out of our own pockets. >>Yes, passive radar may be useful and interesting. I hope you >>can get funding. >Well I'm not involved in it, just a bystander supportive of >Peter Davenport's idea and efforts. I think more of us could be. >As far as I can see his has been a rather lone voice, as Brad >Sparks pointed out originally at the start of this thread. At least we are talking about it. Most seem to ignore it. Odd, but it could be due to something I was thinking about regarding faith. If people are satisfied with their beliefs then they do not need any more/better evidence. Thus no more field research. Which is quite different from "ghost hunters" in that there is a growing group of folk who need to prove or know or experience "the other side". They go out in their primitive ways to do field research, but from our standpoint, the motivation/driving force is the really interesting part (which seems lacking in UFOlogy). These folk are not content to read about and speculate on the old "ghost cases", but rather want to capture proof in EMFs, EVPs and photos. Is it to prove that ghosts exist to eveyone else? I don't think so. I think they really want to "know" that the phenomena is real based on their own personal observations. UFOs are not like that. For Ufology, it seems like one side "knows" they exist, therefore more data is unneeded. All that is required is public acknowledgement and acceptance (by public officials?). But this is only a public relations job, not a research job, since UFOlogy has many cases that should be irrefutable to bring to the public's attention. The other side (skeptics?) doesn't believe UFOs exist but they can't get much energy or organizational life force by being negative. The only real people in Ufology who are left to do field research are those who have fairly open minds. >You reasonably said "I just feel that it is not the savior for >Ufology and real field research [meaning optical tracking] can >be done right now without it." Maybe, but I'm still interested >in an answer to the question I posed back to you a few days >ago: 'Can a useful program of computerised optical tracking be
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 The Material World Abduction Program From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 19:09:51 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:05:25 -0500 Subject: The Material World Abduction Program The following link should take you to information about last Thursday's BBC Radio 4 program on the alien abduction phenomenon: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/thematerialworld.shtml If you click on the following link, you should be able to listen to the program. Select "Material World, The" and then click on "Listen": http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/progs/listenagain.shtml
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Secrecy News -- 11/07/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 14:25:41 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:08:09 -0500 Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/07/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 104 November 7, 2005 ** LEVIN: NEW INFO SHOWS WHITE HOUSE MISSTATED IRAQ INTEL ** LATEST ISSUES OF WORLD LAW BULLETIN ** INADVERTENT DISCLOSURES OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS INFO ** LEAK OF THE WEEK ** MILITARY MEDICINE LEVIN: NEW INFO SHOWS WHITE HOUSE MISSTATED IRAQ INTEL Even as the Bush Administration was claiming that Iraq aided al Qaeda's chemical and biological weapons efforts, the source for those claims was deemed unreliable by U.S. intelligence, according to a release from Senator Carl Levin. "Newly declassified information from the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) from February 2002 shows that, at the same time the Administration was making its case for attacking Iraq, the DIA did not trust or believe the source of the Administration's repeated assertions that Iraq had provided al-Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training," the November 6 news release said. "Additional newly declassified information from the DIA also undermines the Administration's broader claim that there were strong links between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda." A copy of Senator Levin's release and the supporting documents, which were reported in the New York Times and the Washington Post on November 6, may be found here: http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2005/11/levin110605.html Pentagon spokesman Lawrence DiRita, quoted on CNN, said that the DIA report Levin cited was taken "out of context, without the analysis or any other indication as to how it may have factored in." Democratic members of the Senate Intelligence Committee outlined their expectations for the conduct of an investigation into the Administration's handling of pre-war intelligence at a November 4 press briefing. See this release: http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2005/11/rock110405.html LATEST ISSUES OF WORLD LAW BULLETIN The three most recent issues of World Law Bulletin, produced by the Law Library of Congress but not publicly disseminated, have been obtained by Secrecy News. Topics addressed include "Israel's Construction of a Barrier in the West Bank and the Impact of the International Court of Justice Advisory Opinion" (October 2005), "Women's Rights Under Shari'ah (Islamic Law)" (August 2005), "Recent Developments in the European Union," and much more. See: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/wlb/index.html INADVERTENT DISCLOSURES OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS INFO Between May and August 2005, Department of Energy reviewers examined approximately 2.9 million pages that had been declassified and made publicly available at the National Archives, and they found 140 pages containing classified nuclear weapons information that should not have been disclosed. DOE described its findings in general terms in an August 2005 report to Congress that has just been released in declassified form. See: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/inadvertent18.pdf DOE expects to complete its review of publicly released records at the National Archives next year, officials told historians at a meeting in College Park last week. LEAK OF THE WEEK Speaking at a conference in San Antonio, Deputy Director of National Intelligence Mary Margaret Graham said that the total U.S. intelligence budget is now $44 billion, U.S. News and World Report wrote in its November 14 Washington Whispers column. See "This Time We Know Who the Leaker Is" (the third item): http://tinyurl.com/b92e5 According to the CIA, disclosure of such aggregate budget information causes serious damage to U.S. national security and compromises intelligence sources and methods. But it hard to find anyone who seriously believes that. The bipartisan 9/11 Commission recommended that the aggregate and individual agency intelligence budgets be routinely disclosed each year. MILITARY MEDICINE A selection of military manuals on emergency medicine and related topics, from war psychiatry to emergency childbirth, can now be found on the FAS web site. Most of this material replicates standard first aid literature, but it has also has some features that are unique to the military or otherwise distinctive. "Army Field Manual 8-50 ('Bandaging and Splinting') is almost 50 years old, but it is the most comprehensive reference on applying bandages and splints that I know of," said Paul Schumacher, who shared his copy of the document. "Only a 4000 year old Egyptian mummy maker could have written a better manual on this subject," he said. See: http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/milmed/index.html _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: C.D. Jackson & Robert E. Hohmann? - Koi From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 20:10:18 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:10:29 -0500 Subject: Re: C.D. Jackson & Robert E. Hohmann? - Koi >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 09:44:10 -0400 >Subject: C.D. Jackson & Robert E. Hohmann? >I am having trouble digging out background information on these >two IBM engineers (C.D. Jackson and Robert E. Hohmann) who met >with Betty and Barney Hill in the early 1960s. They may be dead. >I know they published a paper at an American Rocket Society >Meeting in 1962, but not much else. Should be resume type info >somewhere. Hi Stan, I'm not sure how much there will really help, but I have a few relevant references. I assume that the paper you already know about is "An Historic Report on Life in Space: Tesla, Marconi, Todd", which C D Jackson and R E Hohmann presented to the Americian Rocket Society meeting on 13-18 November 1962. That paper considered whether radio signals reported by Nikola Tesla, Guglielmo Marconi and David Todd between 1899 and 1924 "are the result of random noise, electrical leaks, or the effects of various diathermy machines, or whether the signals are authentic". The text of the relevant paper is available online at the following link: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1998/nov/m23-015.shtml That paper is discussed on the NIDS website at the link below (which includes some discussion of an attempt to find information on C D Jackson): http://www.nidsci.org/articles/dialog_jh.php The paper is also discussed by Tom Allen, in his "The Quest: A Report on Extraterrestrial life " (1965) at pages 40-50 (in Chapter 3) of the Chilton hardback edition. However, the relevant 10 page discussion is solely concerned with that paper and does not discuss C D Jackson and R E Hohmann themselves. The only other reference I currently have noted in my draft Chronology to discussion of their paper is to the brief discussion by John G Fuller in his "The Interrupted Journey" (1966) at pages 41-42 (in Chapter 3) of the Dial hardback edition, at page 60 of the Dell paperback editions, at pages 64- 65 of the revised Corgi paperback edition. Fuller's discussion begins by noting: (a) "Robert Hohman, a staff scientific writer on both engineering and science for one of the world's most notable corporations in the electronic industry" and (b) "C D Jackson, a senior engineer of the same company". (From other references, the relevant corporation is obviously IBM.) Not exactly a full resume on either individual. However, the relevant chapter in "The Interruped Journey" also quotes a relatively extensive extract from a letter written by R E Hohmann on 3 November 1961 to Mr and Mrs Hill to introduce C D Jackson and himself. Unfortunately, Fuller's quote omits appears to omit some material following the first two sentences. I presume the omitted material includes some information about Mr Jackson and Mr Hohmann along the lines that you are looking for (albeit, obviously, covering only up to 1961). Also, Vallee discusses Hohmann (and giving briefly mentions the same letter of 3 November 1961) in fairly dismissive terms in his "Forbidden Science: Journals 1957-1969." (1992) at pages 269, 272-273, 274-278 (in Chapter 14, journal entries for 1967.0531, 1967.0609 and 1967.0612) of the North Atlantic Books hardback edition, at pages 273, 277-278, 278-282 of the 1996 abridged Marlowe paperback edition. I presume that some members of this List will have a copy of the relevant letter dated 3 November 1961 and can provide you with any relevant information on C D Jackson and R E Hohmann which appears in the material (omitted by John Fuller) that immediately follows the first two sentences of the letter.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:33:49 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:13:30 -0500 Subject: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? http://www.greatdreams.com/Falcon-Richard-Doty.htm I totally missed this interview of Mr. Doty on C2C earlier this year. I'll have to go back into the archives and listen in. The website above however gives some chilling look into this matter of Mr. Bennewitz. I won't go further as many of you are well heeled in it. I'm just curious as to the pro level analysis of the data on the site.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 UFOs Mars & Space Science From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 20:54:20 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:15:04 -0500 Subject: UFOs Mars & Space Science Science radio show 'The Naked Scientists' recently ran a UFO segment, including a feature on the Rendlesham Forest UFO incident. The following link should take you to details of the show, including information about how to download a recording of the program: http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/shows/2005.10.30.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Who Was Philip J. Klass? From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:21:40 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:18:18 -0500 Subject: Who Was Philip J. Klass? Listfolk: I have been following recent posts concerning Philip J. Klass. Few are flattering, and that's fine, because there is much not to like about the way Klass conducted his business. On the other hand: I am discouraged to see speculations, as unconnected to demonstrable evidence as the sweeping pronouncements of pelicanists, that charge Klass with being a government agent tasked to debunk UFOs - in which, one surmises, we are to think he privately knew to exist. Unless someone can produce some actual reason to believe this - and in the four decades Klass participated in the UFO discussion no one has ever brought forth any such - reasonableness and a sense of proportion demand that we accept Klass for who he surely was: a man who held fiercely, even fanatically, and with utter conviction to a point of view most of us would judge to be profoundly wrong-headed. It is easy, albeit self-serving, to convince ourselves that those who disagree with us can't possibly believe what they say they believe, and that they only pretend otherwise for some hidden and unworthy reason. That's why UFO proponents are often depicted, by the way, as cynical, money-grubbing exploiters of public credulity, knowing all the while that UFOs are nonsense. One undeniable fact of human experience, however, is that people do indeed embrace beliefs that we find hard to accept or understand. From my considerable experience of him, I can only conclude that Klass's was no false identity; his principal problem was, if anything, an excess of sincerity. That's why he was who he was. Unlike a mature adult (and Klass always struck me, and not me alone, as something of a child), he could not imagine that he could be wrong about _anything_. Criticize Klass all you want - I've done probably more than my share over the years - but address his genuine failings, not the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 18:13:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:37:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Maccabee >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:54:05 -0600 >Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:56:35 -0800 >>Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found >>Formerly, I held the view that Klass was an honest skeptic, >>but the letter you found undercuts all that. >Klass was "honest" only in the sense that he was sincere in his >phobic rejection of the UFO phenomenon. In my long experience >and observation of him, he was not honest in the sense in which >honesty is applied to intellectual integrity. I refer Listfolk >to my obituary of him in the current issue of CUFOS' >International UFO Reporter (pp. 27-28). Klass was often not honest in his presentation of explanations. He claimed he had never fond a case that didn't have a prosaic explanation. Well, "any explanation in a storm" I suppose. (Debunking rule #1: any explanation is better than none). He'd never answer the question, what if the explanation makes no sense? The most egregious example of this is his explanation of the flashing light movie film section of the 1978 New Zealand sightings. I proved conclusively and sent him the proof, that the film could not possibly show the flashing red light on top of the airplane. Nevertheless, in his third book, UFOs The Public Deceived (in which he deceived the public) he claimed that the film images, which show color change from dim red and orange to bright white,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 05:44:48 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:42:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Sparks >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:04:14 -0600 >Subject: Theory and Pragmatism [was: Gill Sighting] >>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:00:59 -0000 >>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:59:22 -0600 >>>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 20:16:32 +0000 >>>>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting <snip> >>Yes, but you can't leave out the theory without being some kind >>of theory. And if you do not subscribe to the ETH, how could you >>write the following? <snip> >There is nothing wrong with theory, of course. My problem is >with an approach determined almost _entirely_ by theory and in >which theory overwhelms actual data.=C2 Magonian approaches typify >the latter, focusing far more on speculation than on >investigation. In America, by way of contrast, pro- and anti-ETH >investigators, as well as agnostics on the issue, are able to >produce case studies of individual sightings of comparable >worth, because whatever their private instincts about ultimate >causes, they agree that theory needs to take a distinctly second >place behind their desire for good information and >documentation. As I have argued here on UFO UpDates many times over the years theory and observation must go hand in hand. One must not dominate and overwhelm the other. Yet American UFO studies all but shut out theoretical work. Whereas the Magonia approach shuts out _both_ observation and theory development. Valid scientific theories (or hypotheses) must be testable against empirical observations and Magonia's "psychosocial" notions are unfalsifiable by any scientific empirical test, certainly none proposed by Magonia contributors (let us know of any). Magonia "theorizing" is not true scientific theory development because the way it is presented it is untestable and unfalsifiable, it cannot be refuted by any conceivable set of facts because excuses are always made to bail it out when uncomfortable facts are brought forth (much like ETH discussions here on UpDates, always rescued from falsification by Arthur Clarke's dictum about advanced civilization so advanced its technology is indistinguishable from magic to us). And Magonia is never confused by mere lowly "facts" because its collective mind is already made up, UFOs are bunk and that is that. Magonia's anti-empirical anti-scientific method is exemplified by the recent case of Rev. Gill's "mothership" phraseology. When Jerry Clark and Dave Rudiak investigated the actual empirical data of "mothership" word usage to test the Magonia theory that Gill got the phrase from reading Adamski or other contactee literature, as well as testing against Gill interview data, all this was brushed aside as insufficient to falsify the theorized Adamski connection. I pointed out that no other Adamski-ite words or contactee concepts or phrases appeared in Gill's reporting, but to no avail. <snip> >In the absence of solid evidence (such as the tracking of a >craftlike observation from its point of origin in outer space to >its appearance in terrestrial airspace) more or less >unambiguously pointing to an extraterrestrial source, American >ufologists tend to treat sightings as anomalous observations >which they seek to document and whose dynamics they >attempt to understand. Well, American UFO researchers have done very little to study UFO dynamics and points of origin in space of departing and entering UFOs from deep space, since I am the first person in known UFO history to calculate such trajectories and apparent points of origin, going back to my posting here on UFO UpDates on Aug. 11, 2001, and published in VSD magazine, concerning the Roswell object's trajectory. I believe meteoriticist-astronomer Lincoln LaPaz preceded me back in 1947 but he never published such trajectory calculations, which were probably submitted to the military as classified information. See: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/aug/m11-007.shtml Stanford University astrophysicist Peter Sturrock has found a statistical correlation with UFO sightings and 21 hours Right Ascension, but no indication of Declination. (See JSE paper, Fall 2004. Jacques Vallee and I have separately critiqued this finding; one thing I urged was the need for radiant trajectory calculations based on specific cases, which would give us Declination of Celestial Latitude data not just RA.) Interestingly, Sturrock's 21 hrs RA peak in UFO cases happens to correlate with the Roswell object, in the sighting originally associated with the famous alleged UFO crash, as I published back in 2001: My projected radiant or origin point on the celestial sphere of the Roswell object sighted by the Wilmots at 9:50 PM MST on July 2, 1947, was approximately 21 hours Right Ascension (RA), - 30degs Declination (Dec), which was fairly near the solar system orbital ecliptic plane as well as the moon. Here are some more deep space points but for the first time we have some data not on entry points or radiants but _departure_ target points in deep space of UFOs apparently leaving earth's atmosphere at escape velocity. These are some of the best multi- witness visual UFO cases in history (not all of them are best cases), some of which I've previously posted on. The times given are at the _end_ of the sightings when the UFOs disappeared into space. April 24, 1949. 3 miles N of Arrey, New Mexico (at 32degs52.5' N, 107degs19.5' W). 10:34 a.m. (MST). Charles B. Moore theodolite sighting with 4 Navy balloon tracking crew. Distance uncertain as there was no triangulation, therefore terminal velocity might have been about 13,000 mph at about 14 miles altitude, accelerating at about 50 g's, or about 130,000 mph at 140 miles at 500 g's, etc. Projected target radiant at 5degs ascent angle, assuming disappearance by distance, at 20degs azimuth is in deep space at approximately 9 hrs Right Ascension +55degs Declination. Dec. 16, 1953. 3 miles WNW of Agoura, Calif., (at 34degs 9.75mins N, 118degs47mins W). 5:05 p.m. (PST). This is the sighting by famed Lockheed U-2 aircraft designer Clarence "Kelly" Johnson and an independent crew of his top engineers and test pilots aboard a Lockheed aircraft whom he did not know at the time were also watching the same 200-foot black wing- shaped object, hovering at about 15,000 feet for 6 minutes, which suddenly took off in a shallow climb over the Pacific, disappearing in about 10-13 seconds to the aircraft observers but in 90 seconds to Johnson with 8x binoculars who was thus able to see the departure for about 8x longer time. The two sets of observations provide triangulation data for 130 g's acceleration to about 25,000 mph escape velocity at 90 miles altitude. Projected target radiant at ascent angle of about 5degs at about azimuth 270degs is at 17 hrs Right Ascension +2degs Declination. Jan. 2, 1954. Toms River, Marlton, Woodbury, and Surf City (39degs40mins N, 74degs10mins W), New Jersey. 12:05 a.m. Hynek used triangulation data from dozens of witnesses to calculate a departure velocity of about 90,000 mph (thanks to Mary Castner of CUFOS for digging out these files otherwise no one would know a thing about it, Hynek never published it). Projected target radiant at ascent angle of about 5degs at about azimuth 225degs is at 22 hrs Right Ascension -30degs Declination. Oct. 7, 1958. Alexandria, Virginia (at 38degs47.9minsN, 77degs 2.6mins W). 6:03 p.m. (EDT). This is the multiple-witness triangulation daylight sighting of a Saturn-shaped metallic object about 500 feet in diameter spotted by the Defense Dept's top R&D official, the Special Asst for Research & Engineering to the Asst Secretary of Defense. It was independently sighted by an airline pilot, thus providing a triangulation at the optimum right angles to the hovering UFO, which took off at high speed disappearing by distance by accelerating at some 80 g's to about 72,000 mph peak terminal velocity at about 200 miles altitude. Projected target radiant at ascent angle of about 30degs at about azimuth 180degs is at 17 hrs Right Ascension -20degs Declination. I do not see any obvious pattern in the trajectories with respect to the earth's orbit in terms of using the earth's velocity as a energy boost (they are scattered in direction towards or away from the sun, or actually pointed behind the earth thus losing earth velocity advantage, or just out-of-plane entirely). "They" do not seem to need earth's 67,000 mph velocity to help travel around. To sum up these UFO cases provide entry and exit origin points on the celestial sphere in outer space as follows (note in most cases I have rounded RA's to the nearest hour and Declinations to the nearest 5degs or 10degs): July 2, 1947. Roswell, NM. Radiant FROM: 21 hrs RA -30degs Dec. April 24, 1949. Arrey, NM Departure TO: 9 hrs RA +55degs Dec. Dec. 16, 1953. Lockheed. Departure TO: 17 hrs RA +2degs Dec. Jan. 2, 1954. New Jersey. Departure TO: 22 hrs RA -30degs Dec. Oct. 7, 1958. Alexandria/DoD. Departure TO: 17 hrs RA -20degs Dec. Notice that even on this small sample two pairs are fairly close to each other within about 20degs: (a) The Roswell and NJ cases at about 21-22 hours RA at about the same Declinations. (b) The Lockheed and DoD cases both at about 17 hours RA and only about 22degs apart in Declination.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Chichikov From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:22:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:46:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Chichikov >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:13:25 EST >Subject: Are Abductees Certified Yet? <snip> >I'm just waiting, waiting for Harvard to look at those >millions of abductees and the probable 5 million more who won't >publicly admit it and see a potential unprecedented consumer >base for some new drug or mandatory drug/incarceration.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Stevenson From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 12:58:17 +0000 (GMT) Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:48:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Stevenson >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:13:25 EST >Subject: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >http://tinyurl.com/8t9kf >We've seen the story above about the latest polling data on >abductees and the psychiatrists who blanket diagnose them. >Are they 'certified crazy' yet? Have the authorities finally >come up with a new 'mental disorder' to dump all abductees, >witnesses, whistleblowers and afficianados into? >Is it only me that feels with the massive numbers of people >who will admit to having been abducted, that soon some new >mental illness will be voted into the DSM-IV which stands for >Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders? >I'm just waiting, waiting for Harvard to look at those >millions of abductees and the probable 5 million more who won't >publicly admit it and see a potential unprecedented consumer >base for some new drug or mandatory drug/incarceration. >Just think. With Dr. Mack out of the picture to defend against >them, the psychiatric industry can bust a move where they make >anything associated to abduction a 'mental illness' requiring >mandatory drugging or some 'snakeoil' treatment like multi- >flavored Prozac or Xanax. >It's too tempting not to do! In the not too distant past, >talking about UFOs would get one tossed into a mental >hospital. <snip> >People are still scared of retribution from the authorities >and the psychiatric/pharmaceutical cartels. <snip> >Stay frosty cause I'm telling you guys they're gonna push >for this drug treatment crap any day now. Tell me about it Greg. Enforced UK mental hospital stays. Bunged up with anti-psychotics and anti depressants since 1970 and I am still
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Venusian Dreams? From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 14:20:13 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:50:55 -0500 Subject: Venusian Dreams? Dear Jerome Clark, I have just read your interesting article titled, Venusian Dreams, in the last International UFO Report, and I would like to ask you a couple of questions: 1) You mentioned Samuel Eaton Thompson's case. I have it dated in 1947, but you mention a 1950 date. Is yours the right one? Who got Arnold's tapes about the case? They would be a magnificent input for Wendy Connors' project. 2) You mentioned a Swedish man's story, commenting that ufologist Hakan Blomqvist considered everyone involved was sincere. Can you give me some references?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:33:11 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:55:54 -0500 Subject: Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman - Kaeser >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:58:29 EST >Subject: Re: The Klass Letter On Friedman <snip> >Ironically, thanks to Dolan, Klass's own words sealed the fate >of his dark legacy and validated Mr. Friedman and other >ufologists in one fell swoop. Klass wasn't exactly among his friends on this List and I suspect the impact of this letter's confirmation will have little impact on his memory. Dolan has confirmed a letter that had been rumored to exist, but the revelation doesn't really change the world or open up doors to new information. Klass was (IMO) a mean-spirited promoter of truth, as he defined it, and used whatever means necessary to limit the impact of those he felt were snake-oil salesmen and profiteering promoters. His viewpoint was supported by others and he was a colorful spokesman who eventually personified the view of traditional science (or at least the subset that paid his salery). But I also think its a mistake to think that the discovery of this letter is any kind of validation. I think that would only be true if Klass had some special knowledge and was deliberately misleading the public. I've seen no reason to believe that Klass was anything more than what he appeared to be, and I can only
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 The Meaning Of Hoax From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:08:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:08:34 -0500 Subject: The Meaning Of Hoax Source: The New Criminologist - UK http://www.newcriminologist.co.uk/news.asp?id=3D-2038573242 04 November 2005 The Meaning Of Hoax Cheyenne Southerlin As an artist, reading was an avoided hobby, and as these past few years I've had a "cram-course" in current events, I struggled to pass College English Comp with a "D" feeling quite lucky to terminate the misery, and (please!) as soon as possible. Maybe twenty years ago I read an article of how the US Government was planning to stage a "Second Coming of Christ" in that the government would actually land a secretly built and designed, "UFO" and a person would come out of the UFO claiming to be "Christ." The event would be staged for those already in power to gain more power over the people. Many American children are programmed nearly from birth to believe the unbelievable, in the existence of invisible creatures including Santa Claus, Easter Bunny and others, when strict and well-presented studies of World and American history may be more to their advantage. Many folks believe in UFOs and late night radio documents many stories. The fact that "more intelligent life" exists outside our atmosphere is hopefully truth, considering the mess our World is currently enduring. I certainly hope very smart aliens are "out there" intercepting the insanity and messages sent via satellites, into "outer-space," particularly via internet. http://www.anomalous-images.com/astroufo.html If so they're probably seated in comfortable space-ships, eating popcorn, candy, and laughing their one-eyed, pear-shaped purple heads off. However, I believe our Air Force and government probably has secret technology, and since distrust of this and any government in these days seems to be status quo, it's good to screen whatever is heard, seen, or written for possible "Truth." What's your reality? In the year 2000, I was renting a farm and spotted something very strange in the sky. The object was huge, cigar-shaped, long and almost rectangular and moving far too slow for it's size and altitude. A friend beside me, already intoxicated before noon, saw the object when I pointed to the strange "ship" in the sky. His eyes became rather large, as he gazed at the object, he became quiet for a moment, then shook his head saying, "I didn't see that." I couldn't control my laughter. Being one who wouldn't believe in a UFO unless invited inside and probed by aliens, common sense and realistic thinking forced personal meditation. The only "earthly" object which could "fly" so slowly at those altitudes, cigar-shaped and without wings, would be the "Goodyear Blimp," this particular shape perhaps built and designed in Hollywood -or elsewhere. In the movie, "The Wizard of Oz," the "Wizard" was nothing more than a common man seeking power, hiding behind a curtain, to be exposed by a little dog. Imagine that. And later we found he wasn't intelligent enough to fly the balloon! I had a white dog once, while living in the country. For the children, and on special occasions, I would dye the dog with food coloring. Sometimes "Ruff" would be a polka-dot, multi- colored Easter Beagle, and other times he'd be solid, bright dazzling pink. The children at school loved him. Once dyed a beautiful, turquoise blue, I'd allowed Ruff to play in the yard and later met a neighbor, a local cowboy and farmer. "I drove up the hill one day in my truck and seen a blue dawg in yer yard. When I seen that blue dawg, I threw a whole dang Fifth o' Jack Daniels Whiskey out the dern' window." Fortunate to have met a South African, I was able to view comedy movies from that country staged much as our "Candid Camera." In one spot, two huge speakers were well-hidden along the highway on either side of an area frequented by a despised predator, the traffic cop. As the policeman sat comfortably, waiting for an approaching, financially rewarding speeding vehicle, a sound- switch was flipped and an unbelievably loud race-car sound approached from the eastern direction and then the loud roar of the vehicle diminished in the westerly direction. The policeman, once enjoying his comfortable, relaxed position, and baffled the vehicle was apparently moving so fast he hadn't seen it, scrambled, grabbing his hat, jumped in his car and proceeded to catch the invisible law-breaker. It was nearly a Southern Andy Griffith, "Barney Fife" story, and one of the funniest staged events I'd ever seen. When George Bush, Sr. spoke of "The New World Order," some fifteen years ago on TV, it was unsettling. There was a peculiar shimmer in his eyes, and at that time I wondered how it would all "line up" and who would stand "first" in order. What's the plan? "Hoax" is a word defined by Merriam Webster's online dictionary as: Main Entry: 1hoax Pronunciation: 'hOks Function: transitive verb Etymology: probably contraction of hocus : to trick into believing or accepting as genuine something false and often preposterous synonym see DUPE - hoax=B7er noun Difficult to read between the lines of repetitive babble in opinionated "National News," and with every "gate," be it Watergate, Filegate, Troopergate, it seems the same, old, inter- connected career politicians and commentators continuing operations. Some get caught with their hands in the cookie jar, and others don't. But somehow there's always a way to legally weasel around confusion and controversy when facing impending doom. The same, old news story will monopolize TV screens for months, infiltrating and saturating minds, creating "opinion forums" to take to the office, or spark controversy in the neighborhood. Court cases are enduring, trials ongoing, until finally the story dissipates, leading to the next drama. The outcome of the story, if broadcast, will be the topic of discussion all over the country, story and outcome sometimes misunderstood, and the actual conclusion may be less sensational than the initial media blast. What I've found in these days and times, is the only truth we know is what we personally know, and sometimes even that may be questionable. Is, is, is is is is, is...... it a bird? Is.... is.... is is is... it a plane? No! It's "Super-Pickle," silly! Haven't you heard about Super-
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Many Forms Of Intelligence Can Help Efforts From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:16:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:16:10 -0500 Subject: Many Forms Of Intelligence Can Help Efforts Source: The American Chronicle - Beverly Hills, California, USA http://tinyurl.com/br63q November 7, 2005 Many Forms Of Conventional, Unconventional Intelligence Can Help Our Global Efforts By Steve Hammons People around the world are facing many challenges and asking many questions. Some are down-to-Earth and conventional concerns. Some are more unconventional, spiritual and metaphysical questions. In some cases, the conventional and metaphysical merge. For example, many of the people waging war now, on one side or the other, claim to believe they are doing it for spiritual reasons, for Heaven and for God. The real-life bullets, bombs, killing and torture are being done for religious reasons, they claim. And, of course, God is on their side. The larger psychological and spiritual lives of people, nations and cultures are also part of the basic aspects of everyday living. Philosophies of life, of right and wrong, combine with decisions to work for peace, fight in war, choose to hate, choose to love. Intelligence, too, plays a key role. Intelligence in the sense of tactical and strategic information. Intelligence in terms of the ability of individuals to think clearly, logically and independently. Intelligence about the human race and our history. Intelligence about the natural world, science and how the universe works. Intelligence about what is really going on, both those things in plain sight and found in �open source intelligence (OSINT)� and things that are hidden, covert and behind the veil. THE INTELLIGENCES OF AMERICA In past decades, the United States and the American people were often looked to as sources of many of these kinds of intelligences. Now, the image of the United States around the world is a mixed one. On one hand, the U.S. is still a land of economic opportunity, personal liberty and cultural creativity. On the other hand, some seem to see the U.S. as economic exploiter and imperial aggressor. According to some recent surveys, the people of many nations do not now have a favorable view of the U.S. Or, to be more clear, they don�t have a favorable view of U.S. foreign policy and some aspects of the way the U.S. Government and society have been working in recent years. It�s fair to say that many Americans feel the same way. Immediately after the trauma of the 9/11 attacks, America felt unified and purposeful. Now, a majority of Americans report in surveys that they do not believe the U.S. is going in the right direction. What this means when broken down into specifics is unclear. Undoubtedly some of the factors include the invasion of Iraq and the subsequent guerilla war, inaccurate prewar information that was used to justify it, the suspected real reasons for the Iraq war, the deaths of over 2,000 U.S. troops and injuries to over 15,000, the accompanying torture of prisoners, questions about whether the 9/11 attacks were what they appeared to be and other issues. American cultural influences, too, get mixed reviews at home and internationally. These influences are diverse and have many aspects to them. Some movies, TV and pop music are, arguably, not the most enlightening and uplifting creations. However, there are much deeper and more authentic factors in American culture, though we do not always see them and the international community does not always learn about them. As a result of concerns that America is no longer as widely viewed as a leader, but sometimes rather as a danger in one way or another, efforts in �public diplomacy� have been launched. Some of these endeavors are aimed at the international community. And many similar communications efforts have targeted American citizens. Obviously, the situation is far deeper than simply a public relations problem. And it will require more than PR spin and psychological operations (PSYOP). RAISING OUR SIGHTS AS HUMANS In the 20th century and in the previous centuries of human existence on this Earth, we have waged war, killed each other and destroyed. Humans have also loved, created beauty and discovered knowledge of all kinds. These behaviors sometimes occur in waves, sometimes simultaneously, sometimes in no apparent pattern. However, we like to think, hope and pray that the human race has made progress over the centuries. That we have learned. That we are more intelligent in many ways. That we understand more about the nature, Earth, the creatures on it, the universe and how things work in it. That we have advanced as a species and as creatures in this universe of ours. Is this wishful and delusional thinking? Are we, as a race, still primitive barbarians? Fearful, dangerous, prone to destroy rather than to build, to hate rather than to love? It seems clear that the human race has not yet advanced to a level where we can be sure we have left these very dangerous characteristics behind, or at least turned the corner. As a race, we still seem to frequently kill each other, with whatever weapons are available, small and large. The detonation of nuclear weapons, whether �loose nukes� in the hands of terrorists or nuclear weapons launched by misguided government officials could create damage we can barely imagine. Biowarfare and bioterrorism could unleash weapons just as terrible. A goal then, might be to raise our sights. No, I don�t mean shooting the enemy in the head instead of the chest. I mean gaining scientific and metaphysical intelligence that can contribute to the advancement of the human race. Getting to the next level. Even making a breakthrough of some kind. To accomplish this successfully, we can make good use of OSINT, PSYOP, spiritual viewpoints, military tactics and strategies, and communication and education modalities. INTEGRATING THE UNCONVENTIONAL AND CONVENTIONAL Military or other kinds of special operations forces are tasked to deal with unconventional situations and using unconventional means. These efforts are done side by side with conventional approaches. Likewise, unconventional intelligences blend with conventional intelligences. They work side by side and represent a continuum of information, perspectives and opportunities. For example, �remote viewing� would surely fall into the category of an unconventional approach to intelligence gathering, communication and understanding. At least it is unconventional in our modern cultures. In ancient Native American Indian philosophy and psychology, for example, getting valid intelligence information from dreams, vision quests, animal spirits and similar sources was considered normal. Remote viewing, a name given to a fairly specific protocol of methods and guidelines, was developed by the U.S. Army, CIA, Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and private scientific contractors. They are certainly not the first people to discover than sometimes information coming from deep within can be quite valid and quite helpful. Another example of reports of useful unconventional experience might be those people who have had near-death experiences (NDE) when they have been clinically dead or mighty close to it. They report going through a tunnel of light, of meeting loved ones who�ve passed on. Of getting to a very, very nice place. Even reports of UFOs might offer some opportunity to get a perspective on the human condition. Millions of people all over the world are fascinated by this topic. From China to India, from Russia and Europe to the United States people report encounters with UFOs from far away, and from close range. The intelligence agencies and militaries of many nations have conducted significant investigations into UFOs, as have scientists. Some of what they have learned has been made public and is available in OSINT sources in books, movies and on the Web. It�s probably accurate that not all knowledge about UFOs is OSINT. That is, all the information about this phenomena is not out in the open. How do we integrate these unconventional matters with the serious and deadly real-life challenges we face? How can intelligence of this kind help us with wars, peace, power struggles between nations and cultures, natural disasters, disease, starvation, poverty, energy crises? The first step might be seeking information, knowledge and intelligence about the conventional and unconventional. Common denominators, common ground might emerge. OSINT tools, platforms and methods of communication, education and empowering PSYOP might be identified and deployed. Conflict resolution could result. Conflict resolution and maybe something greater, maybe something bigger. Maybe something more
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Researcher Challenges Movies Unscientific Aliens From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:23:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:23:35 -0500 Subject: Researcher Challenges Movies Unscientific Aliens Source: PhysOrg.com http://www.physorg.com/news7949.html November 07, 2005 Researcher Challenges Movies Unscientific Aliens Is there life on other planets? And if so, are they the little green men of science fiction? Professor Ian Stewart from the University of Warwick thinks there is life on other planets and while it could be little and green, it�s highly unlikely to be anything we would recognise as men. Despite our fascination with science fiction it seems our imagination rarely extends beyond pointed ears and different coloured skin when we picture alien races. Now an exhibition at London�s Science Museum addresses just what alien life might look like when it develops on planets with different physical and chemical properties to our own. Apply scientific principles and alien life might be very alien indeed. As a scientist who is also a science fiction writer, Professor Stewart was one of the early advisors to the Exhibition and is uniquely positioned to comment on what alien life could really be like! Professor Stewart argues that popular culture fails miserably to give us anything approaching a scientifically sound idea of what an alien could look like. Many authors and film-makers simply rely on making their aliens in our humanoid image such as Star Trek's Mr Spock or Klingons. Even when a bit more imagination is used science is ignored in favour of simply reproducing the cosyily familiar such as the teddy bear like Ewoks in the film Return of the Jedi, or the remarkable resemblance of ET to the size and behavior patterns of a human toddler. When they are not being cuddly The aliens on our TV and film screens have become a "quasi-scientific stand-in" for ghosts, ghouls and fairies, or modern-day bogeymen or drawing on our phobias of real and mythical animals like spiders, snakes and dragons. The most famous unscientific dragon shaped alien comes from the Alien series which has an unlikely life cycle which faces a number of serious scientific problems as Professor Stewart says: "The dragonesque alien queen lays her eggs, which are apparently about the size of a football, in the open where they apparently wait for thousands of years for a spaceship to land near them. When it does, any that have survived hungry egg-eaters for all that time hatch out. They have the immediate ability to invade terrestrial mammalian hosts and live inside them, where the nutrients are just right for them. How did they become able to avoid our tissue-recognition immune system? Or how to design just the right local anaesthetic so that the host doesn't know he's got an object the size of his heart - extra - in his chest? Are they turned to people, in fact, or are they general-purpose parasites - a concept that would make any parasite specialist scream?" Professor Stewart argues that "We've got to get away from all those comfortable ideas that aliens will be just like us, except for a few minor differences that don't challenge our imagination. - real aliens will be very alien indeed." The truly alien may inhabit planets utterly different from earth. Many different habitats can theoretically support life, not just a water and oxygen based planet. Anywhere that physical matter exists and there is an energy source could lead to the development of something of sufficient complexity that we would categorise it as "life". Even on earthlike planets life could be very different - The development of spines and skeletons is, he says, an evolutionary accident that could well be unique to Earth. "If you ran Planet Earth again, the chances are you wouldn't get vertebrates. You wouldn't get creatures with a jointed spine."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:36:36 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:36:36 -0500 Subject: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics Source: UFO*BC - Vancouver, Canada http://www.ufobc.ca/Beyond/exopolitics.htm Nov 5, 2005 Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics By Gord Heath [image] Paul Hellyer, a former Minister of Defence in the Pearson Government, has announced his belief that UFOs are real and that the US is developing weapons systems for space which are to be used against alien craft entering earth's airspace. He voiced his opinions at the recent "2005 Toronto Exopolitics Symposium". Exopolitics is a new term used to describe the study of the politics of extraterrestrial contact. It is usually discussed in a context which assumes that enough evidence exists from existing UFO reports to conclude that some UFOs are craft that are piloted by beings originating from other planets and solar systems. Hellyer's comments received some coverage in the national media and stirred some interest and reaction from the public, mostly from those who have some interest in UFOs. [_Much_ more at site]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Brigadier General Lovekin From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 08:58:31 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 10:44:52 -0500 Subject: Brigadier General Lovekin Good Morning List, All - I am still trying to find information about BG Lovekin. What I have learned is that he is, indeed, an attorney who has a practice in North Carolina. According to the abbreviated biography there, he was born in August 1940 and graduated from Catawba College in 1964. According to other information, he entered the Army in 1958 and worked from 1958 to 1961 at the White House in the Army Signaling Agency (ASA). He worked with both presidents Eisenhower and Kennedy. Apparently he is (was) a member of the North Carolina National Guard serving as a JAG. Here are the problems. According to Greer and Salla, he was a member of the Army National Guard Reserve. I don't know what that is. The National Guard and the Army Reserve are two separate organizations. There are some less than official civilian groups that take on the appearance of the National Guard. Here in Iowa there is something called the Iowa State Guard which has no real authority but suggests that it is a state "militia" and will assist the National Guard in times of emergence. Lovekin might belong to something like that, though I have found nothing to support that idea. If Lovekin is a real brigadier general, he certainly would know the difference. As such, I would think he would correct this mistake about the organization and has had plenty of time to do so. That I found no correction is interesting. I believe that the reference of the Army Signaling Agency is a reference to the real Army Security Agency which is responsible for the security of White House communications. The real problem here is his age. Those assigned to the White House are normally senior soldiers, high ranking enlisted men and women with specialized skills and training and not kids right out of basic training. There is no Army Signaling Agency. These mistakes makes his story suspect. Lovekin said that he was a young officer, which also is suspect. Yes, there have been some very young officers in the Army. I was a warrant officer at 19, having completed over a year of training as a helicopter pilot. So, Lovekin could have been an 18 year old lieutenant, but I suspect he was not. I also find the timing of his exit from the Army and his graduation from college to be a little quick. Yes, people get through college in three years. I made it in a little over three. Lovekin would have had to leave the Army, enter college immediately and rush through his under- grad work. Possible. Finally, I can find no official biography on him. General officers normally have these available and in today's world they are normally assessable through the web. The National Guard Bureau told me they had nothing on him, but also said that if he retired from the National Guard prior to 1995, they might not have anything. They could tell me that he is not currently on the active list and had not retired in the last ten years. So, all I have been able to find are some dubious claims that are not currently supported by any independent facts. Lovekin could have been an 18 year old lieutenant, but I don't think so. He could have been assigned to the White House, but those assignments normally are given to senior people with special skills. Lovekin was neither senior nor had special skills. He could have been (or is) a general in the National Guard, but there currently no evidence to support this claim. I plan to continue the search. I know that Joe Stefula had written to the Adjutant General of North Caroline attempting to verify the claim that Lovekin was (is) a general but has heard nothing. If anyone can shed some light on this, I would appreciate it. As it stands now, it doesn't seem that Lovekin is who he claims to be. Of course, a couple of documents, and we might learn the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Venusian Dreams? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 08:01:12 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 10:57:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Venusian Dreams? - Clark >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul>, >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 14:20:13 +0100 >Subject: Venusian Dreams? Hi, Luis, >I have just read your interesting article titled, Venusian >Dreams, in the last International UFO Report, and I would like >to ask you a couple of questions: Thank you for your interest in the article. A full account of Samuel Eaton Thompson's story, under the title "Thompson Contact Claim," appears in The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd ed., pp. 893-95. Here are the relevant bibliographic citations: Arnold, Kenneth. "How It All Began." In Curtis G. Fuller, ed. Proceedings of the First International UFO Congress, 17-29. New York: Warner Books, 1980. "Centralian Tells Strange Tale of Visiting Venus Space Ship in Eastern Lewis County." Centralia [Washington] Daily Chronicle (April 1, 1950). Chenowith, Maurene. Letter to Isabel L. Davis (August 5, 1956). Clark, Jerome. "The Coming of the Venusians." Fate 34,1 (January 1981): 49-55. The tape of the Arnolds's interview with Thompson has disappeared, unfortunately. A transcript of the interview survives, however. My Fate article, the first comprehensive account of a story that was little known heretofore, was based on the tape and the transcript.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? - From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 05:47:22 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:18:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? - >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:33:49 EST >Subject: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >http://www.greatdreams.com/Falcon-Richard-Doty.htm >I totally missed this interview of Mr. Doty on C2C earlier this >year. I'll have to go back into the archives and listen in. >The website above however gives some chilling look into this >matter of Mr. Bennewitz. I won't go further as many of you are >well heeled in it. I'm just curious as to the pro level analysis >of the data on the site. Well, it seems that Mr. Doty is still well versed in the art of lying. When I told his co-author Robert Collins that Rick was on C-2-C, Bob phoned Rick to ask him about it and guess what? He denied that it was him. I had to send Collins a voice track from the show before he would believe it was Doty. This got him angry as his best buddy lied to him! In my book, this casts a large shadow on all statements made by Doty about Paul Bennewitz and Linda Howe, especially when Doty said he had been in the "Dulce facility" himself at LANL and his story of his presence at an interview with EBE-2 is in the book he co-authored (he denies co-authoring it too, saying he only contributed material). Read the book: Exempt From Disclosure.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Why UFOs Crash? From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:05:31 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:15:25 -0500 Subject: Why UFOs Crash? Except maybe in the pages of Charles Fort, I have seen no one suggest that UFO crashes might be the result of warfare between antagonistic UFO 'forces'. It's an explanation for why highly advanced technology might fail.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 10:53:16 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:24:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Ledger >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>To: UFO UpDates - >Toronto <ufoupdates.nul>Date: Mon, 7 Nov >2005 15:21:40 -0600 Subject: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >I have been following recent posts concerning Philip J. Klass. >Few are flattering, and that's fine, because there is much >not to like about the way Klass conducted his business. On the >other hand: >I am discouraged to see speculations, as unconnected to >demonstrable evidence as the sweeping pronouncements of >pelicanists, that charge Klass with being a government agent >tasked to debunk UFOs - in which, one surmises, we are to >think he privately knew to exist. >Unless someone can produce some actual reason to believe this >- and in the four decades Klass participated in the UFO >discussion no one has ever brought forth any such - >reasonableness and a sense of proportion demand that we accept >Klass for who he surely was: a man who held fiercely, even >fanatically, and with utter conviction to a point of view most >of us would judge to be profoundly wrong-headed. >It is easy, albeit self-serving, to convince ourselves that >those who disagree with us can't possibly believe what they >say they believe, and that they only pretend otherwise for >some hidden and unworthy reason. That's why UFO proponents are >often depicted, by the way, as cynical, money-grubbing >exploiters of public credulity, knowing all the while that >UFOs are nonsense. >One undeniable fact of human experience, however, is that >people do indeed embrace beliefs that we find hard to accept >or understand. From my considerable experience of him, I can >only conclude that Klass's was no false identity; his >principal problem was, if anything, an excess of sincerity. >That's why he was who he was. Unlike a mature adult (and Klass >always struck me, and not me alone, as something of a child), >he could not imagine that he could be wrong about _anything_. >Criticize Klass all you want - I've done probably more than my >share over the years - but address his genuine failings, not >the ones you may be spinning out of suspicion, paranoia, >resentment, and whole cloth. Hi Jerry, Since I'm the one who asked the question as to whether Klass might have been more than just a dedicated debunker but perhaps a spook with a mission, I guess I should answer this. First, suspicion - this I admit is the only thing I have to go on at present and I won't be going there for very long. I have no real interest in Klass other than his peculiar and rancorous behavior toward the phenomenon and its researchers. Paranoia - let's leave that off the table as inflammatory, I have no reason to be paranoid about Klass's actions, I've come too late to the fair for Klass to have been affective against me or to my study of the phenomenon other than as a study his squirrely attitude, over the top in fact, on the subject of UFOs. Klass it seems had a healthier dose of paranoia than do I. Resentment - does not apply either. I have greater resentment against some in this field [one in particular-and you know who that is] whom are supposed to be my brothers-in-arms than I do against any skeptic or debunker. At any rate, I'm more inclined to see Klass's actions as greater than the sum of the whole with even more interest now since I read your 1992 article, The Debunkers vs. the UFO Menace; or, Is Ufology Tantamount to Communism? which was another eye-opener for me. What surprises me though, Jerry, is your comment taken as a whole, "Criticize Klass all you want - I've done probably more than my share over the years - but address his genuine failings, not the ones you may be spinning out of suspicion, paranoia, resentment, and whole cloth." More now than ever from the reading I've done, I was surprised to find that Klass's actions, in so many cases, were not just annoying and simple minded but repugnant as well. Equally surprising is your defense of him. Might I add that neither of us has any proof of, in my case the theory that he might have been working - on the side - in the interests of either the military or intelligence communities, nor do you have proof that he wasn't? Wrong-headed or not - and I don't think you have the necessary proof to access that-not in my case or in general - the question needed asking as it did/does for Menzel, Condon and others.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:11:44 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:37:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Boone >From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 12:58:17 +0000 (GMT) >Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:13:25 EST >>Subject: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >>http://tinyurl.com/8t9kf >>We've seen the story above about the latest polling data on >>abductees and the psychiatrists who blanket diagnose them. >>Are they 'certified crazy' yet? Have the authorities finally >>come up with a new 'mental disorder' to dump all abductees, >>witnesses, whistleblowers and afficianados into? >>Is it only me that feels with the massive numbers of people >>who will admit to having been abducted, that soon some new >>mental illness will be voted into the DSM-IV which stands for >>Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders? >>I'm just waiting, waiting for Harvard to look at those >>millions of abductees and the probable 5 million more who won't >>publicly admit it and see a potential unprecedented consumer >>base for some new drug or mandatory drug/incarceration. >>Just think. With Dr. Mack out of the picture to defend against >>them, the psychiatric industry can bust a move where they make >>anything associated to abduction a 'mental illness' requiring >>mandatory drugging or some 'snakeoil' treatment like multi- >>flavored Prozac or Xanax. >>It's too tempting not to do! In the not too distant past, >>talking about UFOs would get one tossed into a mental >>hospital. ><snip> >>People are still scared of retribution from the authorities >>and the psychiatric/pharmaceutical cartels. ><snip> >>Stay frosty cause I'm telling you guys they're gonna push >>for this drug treatment crap any day now. >Tell me about it Greg. >Enforced UK mental hospital stays. Bunged up with >anti-psychotics and anti depressants since 1970 and I am still >alive despite all recommendations to die from the abduction >experiences and side effects from these medications. >Anyone for some treatment for Delusions? Colin, I believe you 100%. Matter of fact it's been people from the UK and France who've told me of the horrors they undergo on a daily basis. I had no clue to the magnitude til Jeff Rense told me about it years ago and I had to do my own research. It's a problem of global magnitude for going on a couple hundred years now. I didn't know how bad it was in the UK. At least Prince Charles lambasted the use of psychiatric drugs on kids. Any opposing viewpoint to the status quo can land one in a padded cell or worse from what I've studied. It's a sinister business and a sloppy attempt at science to say the least. If there really was a Sith Cult it would be psychiatry. My eyes got opened when I was doing a live chat for a magazine on American Online. The fans, guests would argue about everything under the sun 24/7. Then one day I chose the topic of psychiatry and I was stunned when 99.9% of the people there tore into psychiatry! Nobody liked it. Their horror stories just floored me. It was the only time they all agreed on something! No fly by night characters either. Many were professionals in various fields and a wide cross section of the human populace at that! Heck, Satan got a higher approval rating than psychiatry. Real Frankenstein stuff there for sure. And I wouldn't be surprised if some form of forced doping for the religious groups wasn't on the drawing board. But to keep things focused, keep a weather eye out for some form of validation from the psychiatric community that anything ET is going to be voted in as a new disorder and that some drug will be deployed. There's too much money in it for them not to. Heck, if they just made some dumb announcement that a certain drug alleviates the stress of an abduction they'd make a fortune. Just think if just $50 a month for a prescription to 10 million? That'd be the biggest windfall in psychiatric history.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:13:25 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:39:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Boone >From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 07:22:22 -0500 >Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:13:25 EST >>Subject: Are Abductees Certified Yet? ><snip> >>I'm just waiting, waiting for Harvard to look at those >>millions of abductees and the probable 5 million more who won't >>publicly admit it and see a potential unprecedented consumer >>base for some new drug or mandatory drug/incarceration. ><snip> >Double or triple that by adding people who have had religious >experiences. Canada might be the first to do it. Pavel, Now that is scary!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics - From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 05:35:19 -1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:42:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics - From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 4:36 AM Subject: UFO UpDate: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >Source: UFO*BC - Vancouver, Canada >http://www.ufobc.ca/Beyond/exopolitics.htm >Nov 5, 2005 >Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >By Gord Heath >[image] <snip> >[_Much_ more at site] >http://www.ufobc.ca/Beyond/exopolitics.htm <snip> Thank you for forwarding this story on Paul Hellyer. I think Hellyer's emergence is significant to UFO researchers for a number of reasons. First, as a former senior politician he will have significant influence with the current cadre of Canadian politicians who begin to think about the UFO phenomenon. Having a senior politician come forward to declare his views based on his own significant political career, will help shape the views of others who seriously question what has been Canada's official UFO policy. Second, Hellyer relied on none other than Philip Corso to come forward with his views. Corso's testimony was confirmed by Hellyer's confidential conversation with a retired USAF general who said that everything Corso claimed was true and more. This certainly adds to weight of evidence supporting Corso's testimony in terms of official documents putting him in the key positions he claimed to have served in. Third, Hellyer demonstrates the approach that many senior politicians will take to the UFO phenomenon. They are not likely to be impressed by the data base of UFO sightings accumulated by many researchers, but are more likely to be convinced by the testimony of a whistleblower whose identity is informally confirmed through one's system of contacts. This in my view points to emergence of exopolitics as the more suitable approach to the indisputable government cover up of UFO data and the ETH. I think that the issue of whistleblower testimony again emerges as an important source of data since senior politicians are likely to give more credence to their inside contacts verifying whistleblower testimony than what is reported in the mass media concerning UFO sightings. If there is one or more retired USAF generals saying off the record to senior politicians that Corso was genuine, this will silently continue to shape perceptions of politicians courageious enough to inquire about the UFO phenomenon. Hellyer is the first of many politicians who will openly come forward to support many views that are at the heart of the exopolitics approach.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Passive Radar - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:31:19 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:45:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Passive Radar - Smith >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 14:23:53 -0000 >Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 12:05:57 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >>Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>I agree _now_ that there may not be enough of a dataset >>(radar data) to make my conclusion (that using radar >>is likely to be successful).. >OK - I think. But, reading on, you still seem to hold to that >conclusion (that evidence of radar effectiveness in UFO >detection is very weak). Yes, I still _feel_ it is weak (but maybe not "very weak"). You offer numerous arguments that I will not repeat here but are quite valid that I really should base my dataset on well researched cases rather than raw reports. I have read many radar-optical UFO case reports and they are very impressive, much more so than optical/no radar. Even if the number of radar visible UFOs are smaller than 100%, this additional data stream adds much credence to such cases. So, although I _will_ still be pessimistic (its my nature) about being able to catch _most_ alien-type UFOs on passive/ active radar, I think its a very nice thing to be able to do if you have enough money to get one. >snip< >Oh well then, let's all just agree to accept one another's gut >feelings and dump all this tedious insistence on detailed case >studies and logical clarity. Why bother with instrumented >research either? It's all just annoying pedantry when we can >rely on gut feelings isn't it? I have personal reasons for research. Not the quest of science or money or fame. But I am beginning to wonder whether it is worth it. >Of course you don't have to "prove" that you have acquired a >poor impression of radar UFO evidence. That's just a subjective >self-report that we are bound to accept. But if you want other >people to trade in their different impressions for your own new >one, then of course you do have to be prepared to "prove" it - >or at least to substantiate it with a reasonable case - >otherwise who cares what you say? Usually when I voice an opinion, I am more interested in learning what others believe than in convincing others of my beliefs. I have been trying to learn from your educated remarks. You have been kind enough to clarify some issues with radar which I hope others have benefited from as well. I look at this as an excellent opportunity to hear from you about this topic. I am sorry I could not be a more sufficient "foil" to argue/debate. >Would you care to guess at the >number of reports of odd radar echoes where somebody went >outside to look at the sky and saw nothing visually? So are radar UFOs only "real" if they are optically confirmed? >Oh so I'm urging you unwillingly to talk in percentages and >therefore you can't be held responsible? You said (10/29/05) "I >can't really talk in absolutes when it comes to UFOs. I can only >talk in percentages". Good catch. I should have checked what I wrote. What I think I meant was ... UFOs do not exhibit absolute behaviors and one must talk about their behavior in terms of percentages. Since I can only guess at these percentages, I was disinclined to do so. Sorry for wording it confusingly. >>If you have done the statistic analysis verifying the >>worthiness of radar as applied to UFO research, then it >>should be valuable data to support Davenport's quest for >>passive radar funding. >Remember that the negative statistical argument (the proportion >of visual sightings supported by radar reports is anomalously >small, indicating - you claimed - that radar was probably _not_ a >worthy tool for UFO research) was introduced by you, not me. It >is you who should have "done the analysis" isn't it? For one thing, I doubt I have said passive radar is "not a worthy tool for UFO research". I am sure it can be used for some percentage of UFOs. You seem to assume a high percentage, whuile I assume a low percentage. But I never said no percentage. Do you want to assume all UFOs are radar visible unless proven otherwise by passive radar data? There are a wide variety of optical phenomena and likely many electrical phenomena that cannot be imaged with any kind of radar. >>Yes, but unless this data is provided to investors to show some >>chance of success, why should they invest in passive or any >>radar? >Pardon me, but _you_ are the one who advanced a case, without >providing data, as to why they _shouldn't_ invest! If you now >accept that your case was flawed, I don't think I even had a "case". Don't think investors are listening to _me_! Firstly, I have been saying that when a person has no fat cat investors, the first thing they want to buy for UFO field research is not going to be a passive radar unless he is pretty well off. Second, I suspect that it is only "truth in advertising" that one make an effort to provide evidence to an investor the anticipated radar contact success rate as derived from past active radar (do we even have ANY passive radar data of UFOs?). If you want to sell this idea to investors on the basis that it doesn't matter what percentage of UFOs are radar visible, then fine! I hope you can do so! Maybe they will accept it. If I had a million dollars, _I_ would likely invest even with a 5% likelihood of picking up optical UFOs (not airplanes, meteors, etc) on radar, but that's just me after winning the lottery. If the investors have enough money, this all is a non-issue. But if they are steel-eyed, hard bitten, skeptical investors, then its different. You seem to think I am saying "no UFOs are radar visible" and that my "case" is that its useless to have passive or active radar for these reasons. This is wrong! I am saying it costs alot for radar. I want radar! Please someone give me one! But given the priorities of spending, can I afford one? No. Will investors buy one? I don't think so because I do not have the patience to deal with them. How does one convince them? Maybe a great sales scheme or a dynamic personality. >then by all means, yes, >please, let us move ahead to discuss data that might argue a >positive case for passive radar (not "any radar"). I just don't >sense any real interest or encouragement from your side! I want one but can never afford one. >>I concede ANY radar would be nice to have. >We are talking about a very particular type of radar for >particular reasons that have been listed often enough. >Continuing to bring in "any radar" is just muddying the waters. Well, maybe you are restricted to passive radar but don't count me as that way. I will continue to yearn for either type radar as a "luxury" item. >How much more expensive? It all depends on the scope of >your objective, it seems to me. Greater than $100K >Using Celldar, for >instance, you could provide hard evidence of radio-scattering >objects flying in a local area (coverage cells of each mast in >the order of 10 miles across) to corroborate visual reports by >means of a few cellphones, some yagi aerials, an analogue- >digital converter and a desktop PC. Perhaps this could be >started as a small-scale trial, and then expanded ultimately >indefinitely with fast internet connections as and when further >time and money permit. I look forward to seeing it in Best Buy or Radio Shack. >>$10K is not too bad for someone (retired) to while away his >>time trying to gather data on UFOs. $100K is for the big >>league, which never seems to step up to the plate for some >>reason. >I don't know where $100k comes from. But as I said, it may not >be necessary to do everything at once. And of course we're not >considering here the posthumous use of latent data in academic >research datasets etc that might be done without even the cheap >hardware. $100K is an estimate for new/nonmass produced/high tech products (not consumer level). If Ford was putting it in all their cars, then the price would go down to <$10K. Latent data in academic databases are worthy to examine. Deep understanding of the instruments is required. >How can you possibly say >that well-reported official radar-visual cases are pointless, >whereas internet anecdotes about Mrs. Jones seeing a light and >phoning the local airport are a meaningful dataset? I can easily say it. The reason is because nothing _has_ changed even with outstanding optical/radar UFO sightings/data/cases. Why is that? Maybe the investors will be interested. Well, it seems you think the active radars that were used were not good enough. Hummmm. Yes, witness reports are pretty useless compartively. But why throw them out altogether? >You want to "change the world": Have photographs of >funny lights "changed the world"? According to your >definition, no. What then >is the point of your optical tracking stations? What >difference does it make to have more images of funny >lights? Think carefully about your answer . . . I personally do not want to change the world. However, when on considers the expediture of investor resources, one wishes to get the maximum benefit. Images of "funny lights" (nice derogatory term...where did _that_ come from?) have not really "changed the world" unless in a very minimal incremental way, culturally. Radar UFOs certainly have not changed the world. Oddly, combined radar and optical UFO sightings have not changed the world. The point is why are we even bothering if the research makes no difference? If we get another radar/optical UFO case or 100 of them, how does this affect the world? Sure we can do scientific research for research/science's sake, but as an engineer I prefer tangible benefits. For my optical tracking station (and I say "my" because I can only speak for myself), I do not need investors and am not doing it for fame or money or science or prestige or a SciFi channel show. Its personal. But when you need investors, you cannot be personal. >>UFOs are STILL an unaccepted, fringe thing, even with >>the few decent optical/radar cases, so apparently having >>this kind of data makes NO difference. >I refuse to rehearse every damn detail yet again. Read up. Okay, so passive radar _is_ the panacea. So much better than active radar. Just throw out those old radar/optical cases, because they really aren't worth anything. >>Just because something is "open-source" does not give it a free >>rein for anyone to do. Chemical formulae for explosives can be >>had from an encyclopedia, but does the ATF want you to make it >>by the ton? >Tell me what part of a Celldar passive radar system falls foul >of federal statutes in your country? Is it the phones? The yagi >aerials? The desktop PC? If its range is 10 miles, probably no regulations are violated. But then, I am no expert on the various US security laws. We'll wait and see what happens. >>Thanks for your information about passive/active radar. I admit >>its hard to seep into my brain, but if I read it a few more >>times and think about it maybe I can "get" it. >You're welcome. The UFOCapture design sounds fascinating. I >could easily imagine a relatively cheap systen of automated >optical _and_ passive radar detection working hand in hand, each >vastly augmented by the other. It probably only needs one well- >off individual to get excited about this. The more I think about >it, the more I wish I wasn't poor :-) I wish I could be so optimistic as you about the "cheapness" of passive radar. Sure, I am not able to estimate the costs very well, but with all new technology that is not consumer- level,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:07:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:51:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Friedman >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 05:44:48 EST >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:04:14 -0600 >>Subject: Theory and Pragmatism [was: Gill Sighting] >>>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:00:59 -0000 >>>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting <snip> >>>Yes, but you can't leave out the theory without being some kind >>>of theory. And if you do not subscribe to the ETH, how could you >>>write the following? ><snip> >>There is nothing wrong with theory, of course. My problem is >>with an approach determined almost _entirely_ by theory and in >>which theory overwhelms actual data.=C2 Magonian approaches typify >>the latter, focusing far more on speculation than on >>investigation. In America, by way of contrast, pro- and anti-ETH >>investigators, as well as agnostics on the issue, are able to >>produce case studies of individual sightings of comparable >>worth, because whatever their private instincts about ultimate >>causes, they agree that theory needs to take a distinctly second >>place behind their desire for good information and >>documentation. >As I have argued here on UFO UpDates many times over the >years theory and observation must go hand in hand. One must >not dominate and overwhelm the other. Yet American UFO >studies all but shut out theoretical work. Whereas the Magonia >approach shuts out _both_ observation and theory development. >Valid scientific theories (or hypotheses) must be testable >against empirical observations and Magonia's "psychosocial" >notions are unfalsifiable by any scientific empirical test, >certainly none proposed by Magonia contributors (let us know of >any). >Magonia "theorizing" is not true scientific theory development >because the way it is presented it is untestable and unfalsifiable, >it cannot be refuted by any conceivable set of facts because >excuses are always made to bail it out when uncomfortable >facts are brought forth (much like ETH discussions here on >UpDates, always rescued from falsification by Arthur Clarke's >dictum about advanced civilization so advanced its technology >is indistinguishable from magic to us). And Magonia is never >confused by mere lowly "facts" because its collective mind is >already made up, UFOs are bunk and that is that. >Magonia's anti-empirical anti-scientific method is exemplified >by the recent case of Rev. Gill's "mothership" phraseology. When >Jerry Clark and Dave Rudiak investigated the actual empirical >data of "mothership" word usage to test the Magonia theory that >Gill got the phrase from reading Adamski or other contactee >literature, as well as testing against Gill interview data, all >was brushed aside as insufficient to falsify the theorized >this Adamski connection. I pointed out that no other Adamski-ite >words or contactee concepts or phrases appeared in Gill's >reporting, but to no avail. <snip> The above is truly an outstanding posting of facts and data. Would that there were more. Budd Hopkins paraphrased Carl Sagan's comment "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" to "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary investigation". Brad has done this in spades.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:43:36 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:53:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? - Boone >From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 05:47:22 -0800 >Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:33:49 EST >>Subject: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>http://www.greatdreams.com/Falcon-Richard-Doty.htm >>I totally missed this interview of Mr. Doty on C2C earlier this >>year. I'll have to go back into the archives and listen in. >>The website above however gives some chilling look into this >>matter of Mr. Bennewitz. I won't go further as many of you are >>well heeled in it. I'm just curious as to the pro level analysis >>of the data on the site. >Well, it seems that Mr. Doty is still well versed in the art of >lying. When I told his co-author Robert Collins that Rick was on >C-2-C, Bob phoned Rick to ask him about it and guess what? >He >denied that it was him. I had to send Collins a voice track from >the show before he would believe it was Doty. This got him >angry >as his best buddy lied to him! >In my book, this casts a large shadow on all statements made >by >Doty about Paul Bennewitz and Linda Howe, especially when >Doty >said he had been in the "Dulce facility" himself at LANL and his >story of his presence at an interview with EBE-2 is in the book >he co-authored (he denies co-authoring it too, saying he only >contributed material). Read the book: Exempt From Disclosure. >Bill Moore isn't exactly Mr. honest either. Oh, I'm off to the store to get me a copy of your book! I have got to read this for myself! Is it listed on your site? I don't wanna go to Amazon or Ebay when I can get one directly from you. Please list your site and any info for us newbies to this drama.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:46:26 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:56:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Clark >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 10:53:16 -0400 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:21:40 -0600 >>Subject: Who Was Philip J. Klass? Hi, Don, >>One undeniable fact of human experience, however, is that >>people do indeed embrace beliefs that we find hard to accept >>or understand. From my considerable experience of him, I can >>only conclude that Klass's was no false identity; his >>principal problem was, if anything, an excess of sincerity. >>That's why he was who he was. Unlike a mature adult (and Klass >>always struck me, and not me alone, as something of a child), >>he could not imagine that he could be wrong about _anything_. >>Criticize Klass all you want - I've done probably more than my >>share over the years - but address his genuine failings, not >>the ones you may be spinning out of suspicion, paranoia, >>resentment, and whole cloth. >Since I'm the one who asked the question as to whether Klass >might have been more than just a dedicated debunker but perhaps >a spook with a mission, I guess I should answer this.... >Equally surprising is your defense of him. Might I add that >neither of us has any proof of, in my case the theory that he >might have been working - on the side - in the interests of >either the military or intelligence communities, nor do you have >proof that he wasn't? I didn't have you particularly in mind when I wrote this post. I am sorry you thought this was directed at you. The charge that Phil Klass was a secret agent has been around for a long time, and this is not the first time I've addressed it. See, for a recent example, my obituary in the current issue of International UFO Reporter. In any event, I don't see how this amounts to a "defense" of Klass, in your word. To the contrary, it is the charge that he was a disinformation agent that amounts to a defense. It makes him a conscious, rational actor, however lamentable those actions, and not the sometimes out-of-control, near-comic goofball I and others observed and interacted with. A friend, now deceased, who used to work at CSICOP headquarters told me that CSICOP head Paul Kurtz's attitude toward Klass was something like, "Yeah, he's a nut, but at least he's _our_ nut." It helps, too, to know something about the dynamics of the debunking movement, as exemplified by CSICOP (though not only by it), over the past three decades. Klass represented an approach, to paraphrase Barry Goldwater's notorious speech at the 1964 GOP convention, in which extremism in defense of rationalism is no vice. Klass was hardly the only debunker who has operated on that principle. If no evidence exists to support the allegation that Klass's had a secret life as a government agent - and it doesn't - the hypothesis becomes an unnecessary one. We simply don't need it to explain his behavior. Don't give the guy too much credit, Don.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 P-47: SITU's Bob Warth Has Died From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:58:48 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:58:48 -0500 Subject: P-47: SITU's Bob Warth Has Died From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul> To: PROJECT-1947.nul Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:16:59 -0500 Subject: SITU's Bob Warth Has Died The Society for the Investigation of the Unexplained was founded by Ivan T. Sanderson. SITU's journal was Pursuit, and the editor from 1980 onward was Bob Warth. I've been informed, indirectly from his wife, via former SITU member Bob Durant that Warth died on Halloween, October 31, 2005. Bob Warth died from a hemorrhage secondary to undiagnosed colon cancer. Warth was a long-time supporter of Fortean thought, and counted among his many friends, old line SITUers, as well individuals such as Uri Geller. Bob's effort to try to rejuvenate the journal Pursuit in 1995 were unsuccessful, although many of us old guard of the SITU were behind his efforts.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 12:39:18 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 13:26:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Kaeser >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:21:40 -0600 >Subject: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >Listfolk: >I have been following recent posts concerning Philip J. Klass. Few are flattering, and that's fine, because there is much not to like about the way Klass conducted his business. On the other hand: >I am discouraged to see speculations, as unconnected to demonstrable evidence as the sweeping pronouncements of pelicanists, that charge Klass with being a government agent tasked to debunk UFOs - in which, one surmises, we are to think he privately knew to exist. Hi Jerry, Don Berliner of the Fund for UFO Research saw this post and had a few comments to add to the mix: ----- "There is some circumstantial evidence supporting the theory that Klass was a government agent. He made his debut in the UFO field in the summer of 1966, when Aviation Week published his two-part series "explaining" all UFO sightings as electrical phenomena, e.g. plasmas. At the same time, he began breaking a long string of stories about classified Government avionics research and development. This not only made Klass' reputation, but it played the major role in giving tthe magazine the nickname of 'Aviation Leak'". "When accused of being a Government agent, Klass always insisted
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Gill Sighting - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 16:33:43 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 13:28:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Gill Sighting - Rimmer >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:18:11 -0600 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >Elevated to the status of mocking insult by what passes for >the dissembling opposition... I _have_ arrived. Errol, please >have my suite prepared and instruct the British UpDates wenches >provide me the finest muffins and bagels in all the land. Alfred, Let me save you a lot of trouble. The finest beigels in all the Kingdom are to be had at the 24 Hour Beigel Bake on Brick Lane,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: The Material World Abduction Program - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 12:43:16 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 13:37:59 -0500 Subject: Re: The Material World Abduction Program - Velez >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 19:09:51 -0000 >Subject: The Material World Abduction Program >The following link should take you to information about last >Thursday's BBC Radio 4 program on the alien abduction >phenomenon: >http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/thematerialworld.shtml >If you click on the following link, you should be able to listen >to the program. Select "Material World, The" and then click on >"Listen": >http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/progs/listenagain.shtml Well done, Nick! I only wish there more programs that dealt with this difficult subject as fairly, objectively and open- minded as this one did. It is a source of frustration for me that after so many years the conversation/buzz on the topic of abduction remains on a distinctly rudimentary level. The surface of the subject has been scratched to death. I suppose I'll just have to resolve to go to my death bed another victim of Phillip Klasse's 'curse.' It would be most refreshing to see the investigation, finally, taken to the next level. The pioneering work of Hopkins, Jacobs, Fowler and Mack, et al, needs to be expanded and followed-up. If indeed there exists such things as implants then let's take some CAT scans or x-rays. The sheer numbers of people reporting the phenomena should be more than enough justification for the larger academic community to involve itself and launch an investigation into the matter. Preferably one whose results are not preordained - as in Harvard not wasting much time after John's death in getting this latest tripe about sleep-paralysis out to the public. There is a strong almost concerted drive-to-the-hoop, recently, to iterate and reiterate the sleep paralysis explanation for reported cases of kidnapping by UFO occupants. I say "concerted" because like a paid commercial spot, suddenly this SP explanation is appearing repeatedly, popping up everywhere in all kinds of media. Radio, the Internet, newsprint, TV presentations, few avenues that afford mass exposure for the theory have been ignored. I worked with Budd Hopkins - and on my own - long enough to know with a degree of certainty that there are people and reports which cannot be so easily dismissed. (Sleep paralysis) Cases where sleep paralysis does not apply in any way, shape or form. We need to demand a 'concerted multi-disciplinary investigation' into some of the stronger cases/reports. Budd has cases involving policemen, ranking military personnel, a psychiatrist and several others that would be prime candidates for closer scrutiny by independent investigators. When or if that all will happen remains well over the horizon and out of sight for now. I don't see it happening anytime soon. Shame. It's a shame for us - we never got any help in our plight - and a shame for the scientific community for its failure to investigate what has to be one of the most frightening and compelling phenomenon in human history. One day, the truth will out. It would just be nice to have some reliable answers before I depart this mortal coil. Screw Klass and his 'curse'. Thanks for allowing me this brief rant and for lending your sane, open-minded and intelligent voice to this issue of abduction. Speaking as an abductee with a lifetime of conscious memories of these events, I appreciate your time and efforts.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: SITU's Bob Warth Has Died - Coleman From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 13:13:07 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 13:41:43 -0500 Subject: Re: SITU's Bob Warth Has Died - Coleman >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:58:48 -0500 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Subject: UFO UpDate: P-47: SITU's Bob Warth Has Died >From: Loren Coleman <lcoleman.nul> >To: PROJECT-1947.nul >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:16:59 -0500 >Subject: SITU's Bob Warth Has Died >Warth died on Halloween, October 31, 2005. Sadly, with the loss on Tuesday, November 1, 2005, of Richard Greenwell - known for his edited books on UFOs with Ronald Story, and his ISC organizational work in cryptozoology - this is indeed, a sad week. http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/richard-greenwell-1942-2005/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: ho Was Philip J. Klass? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 14:45:38 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 15:01:44 -0500 Subject: Re: ho Was Philip J. Klass? - Ledger >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:46:26 -0600 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 10:53:16 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:21:40 -0600 >>>Subject: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>One undeniable fact of human experience, however, is that >>>people do indeed embrace beliefs that we find hard to >>>accept or understand. From my considerable experience of >>>him, I can only conclude that Klass's was no false >>>identity; his principal problem was, if anything, an >>>excess of sincerity. >>>That's why he was who he was. Unlike a mature adult (and >>>Klass always struck me, and not me alone, as something of >>>a child), he could not imagine that he could be wrong >>>about _anything_. Criticize Klass all you want - I've done >>>probably more than my share over the years - but address >>>his genuine failings, not the ones you may be spinning out >>>of suspicion, paranoia, resentment, and whole cloth. >>Since I'm the one who asked the question as to whether Klass >>might have been more than just a dedicated debunker but >>perhaps a spook with a mission, I guess I should answer >>this.... >>Equally surprising is your defense of him. Might I add that >>neither of us has any proof of, in my case the theory that >>he might have been working - on the side - in the interests >>of either the military or intelligence communities, nor do >>you have proof that he wasn't? >I didn't have you particularly in mind when I wrote this post. >I am sorry you thought this was directed at you. The charge >that Phil Klass was a secret agent has been around for a long >time, and this is not the first time I've addressed it. See, >for a recent example, my obituary in the current issue of >International UFO Reporter. >In any event, I don't see how this amounts to a "defense" of >Klass, in your word. To the contrary, it is the charge that he >was a disinformation agent that amounts to a defense. It >makes him a conscious, rational actor, however lamentable >those actions, and not the sometimes out-of-control, >near-comic goofball I and others observed and interacted with. >A friend, now deceased, who used to work at CSICOP >headquarters told me that CSICOP head Paul Kurtz's attitude >toward Klass was something like, "Yeah, he's a nut, but at >least he's _our_ nut." >It helps, too, to know something about the dynamics of the >debunking movement, as exemplified by CSICOP (though not only >by it), over the past three decades. Klass represented an >approach, to paraphrase Barry Goldwater's notorious speech at >the 1964 GOP convention, in which extremism in defense of >rationalism is no vice. Klass was hardly the only debunker who >has operated on that principle. >If no evidence exists to support the allegation that Klass's >had a secret life as a government agent - and it doesn't - the >hypothesis becomes an unnecessary one. We simply don't need >it to explain his behavior. Don't give the guy too much >credit, Don. After I sent this Jerry, I reread it and noted that I probably came across as decrying Klass as a hard-core agent and that wasn't my intent, either in response to your reply or in my original question to the list. Allow me clarify. Klass came to AW&ST in 1954 during the McCarthy era and the middle of House Un-American Activities Committee deliberations. It appears he was a undescerning patriot which some of his writing tends to support [re: your article The Debunkers vs. the UFO Menace; or, Is Ufology Tantamount to Communism? at: http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/debunk1.htm Perhaps it was reflected in his musings back then, possibly during his tenure at General Electric. GE had it's share of Top Secret work and I'm sure as an engineer, Klass came in contact with some of it and may even have had some low-level government clearance in that regard where his work as an Electrical Engineer touched on Top Secret projects. What if his strong patriotic stance caught the attention of those looking for an advocate and who was now about to begin a career with an aviation and aerospace magazine? Without trying to enlist him would they not have been able to simply appeal to his patriotism and perhaps share their "concerns" about the direction that this flying saucer thing was taking and how there was some reason to suspect the Soviets were behind the scare mongering? Mind you we don't want our agency of perhaps air force associated with this line of thought, but if you used your "expertise" and knowledge of the aerospace industry to counter some of these hard-to-discount cases-which tend to embarras us and lend comfort to the Soviets-then we would be very appreciative of your efforts. Klass then gets in return inside information about military projects that would become public anyway but he gets the "scoop" and other rails are greased for him in other aerospace endeavors. In other words he's a bird dog for "whomever" with inside sources but is not inside himself. But he's riding the high of his own patriotism and perceived connection to in-the-know movers and shakers of military or civilian intelligence. I like the Air Force this myself. My use of spook was pure laziness and an attempt to circumnavigate the remarks I've just made. Personally, I don't see this as being a stretch for Klass. But you and others knew him better than me, by a factor to the 10th power at least. But if he was as suggested by your statement, "That's why he was who he was. Unlike a mature adult (and Klass always struck me, and not me alone, as something of a child), he could not imagine that he could be wrong about _anything_." then all the more reason for his type of personality to get sucked in, like the guy running around with a pretend police badge because the police asks him to keep his eyes open. Again, I expect to go nowhere with this thread other than to explore the possibilities. It was many years after Menzel's death when Stan Friedman found out about his intelligence connections or at least his clearance. Best,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 8 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:02:46 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 15:03:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Clark >From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 12:39:18 -0500 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:21:40 -0600 >>Subject: Who Was Philip J. Klass? Hi, Steve and Don, >>I am discouraged to see speculations, as unconnected to >demonstrable evidence as the sweeping pronouncements of >pelicanists, that charge Klass with being a government agent >tasked to debunk UFOs - in which, one surmises, we are to think >he privately knew to exist. >Don Berliner of the Fund for UFO Research saw this post and had >a few comments to add to the mix: >"There is some circumstantial evidence supporting the theory >that Klass was a government agent. He made his debut in the UFO >field in the summer of 1966, when Aviation Week published his >two-part series "explaining" all UFO sightings as electrical >phenomena, e.g. plasmas. At the same time, he began breaking a >long string of stories about classified Government avionics >research and development. This not only made Klass' reputation, >but it played the major role in giving tthe magazine the >nickname of 'Aviation Leak'". >"When accused of being a Government agent, Klass always insisted >that he had never taken a penny from the Government. He never, >to my knowledge, denied taking valuable information in exchange >for his anti-UFO tirades." All of this depends on how one defines "government agent." If one defines that phrase as meaning somebody who's on the payroll to spy on and disrupt ufologists, Klass was certainly not that. Or at least zero demonstrated evidence supports that suspicion. On the other hand, he was very much a creature of the military- industrial complex. I recall a particularly funny episode once, when in the middle of a scandal about Pentagon "overruns" (less politely, horrendous price-gouging on things like contracts for toilet seats), Klass emotionally defended the practice on the grounds that these guys were to be respected because they beat the Communists and it was not for us, as mere citizens and taxypayers, to question their actions. Beyond that, Klass's politics were, no surprise, far to the right. He was temperamentally authoritarian. I have no doubt that if some ufologist accidentally stumbled upon a national-security secret (such as information about an advanced, experimental military aircraft), Klass would not have hesitated - secretly, naturally - to inform the FBI or whatever relevant federal police agency and to encourage investigation and, if possible, arrest of said ufologist. That, however, is not the same as Klass's being a "government agent" in the ordinarily understood sense of the phrase. For that, no evidence has ever been shown to exist, and moreover, as I've stated elsewhere, it is not a hypothesis necessary to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Koi From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:28:31 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:09:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Koi >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:21:40 -0600 >Subject: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >Listfolk: >I have been following recent posts concerning Philip J. Klass. >Few are flattering, and that's fine, because there is much not >to like about the way Klass conducted his business. On the >other hand: >I am discouraged to see speculations, as unconnected to >demonstrable evidence as the sweeping pronouncements of >pelicanists, that charge Klass with being a government agent >tasked to debunk UFOs - in which, one surmises, we are to think >he privately knew to exist. >Unless someone can produce some actual reason to believe this - >and in the four decades Klass participated in the UFO >discussion no one has ever brought forth any such - >reasonableness and a sense of proportion demand that we >accept Klass for who he surely was: a man who held fiercely, >even fanatically, and with utter conviction to a point of view >be most of us would judge to profoundly wrong-headed. Hi Jerry, While I agree with the thrust of your email, I thought it (just about) worth mentioning that Bill Cooper claimed to have seen documents demonstrating that Klass was a CIA agent. See the following in William Cooper's "Behold a Pale Horse" (1991) at pages 226, 228 (in Chapter 12) of the Light Technology softcover edition: "Philip Klass is an agent of the CIA. This was stated in the documents I saw between 1970 and 1973. One of his jobs as an aviation expert was to debunk everything to do with UFOs. All military commanders were instructed to call him to gain information on how to debunk and/or explain UFO contacts and/or sightings to the public and/or the press if and when the need arose..." (As you may know, I tend to restrict my activities on this List to providing references rather than opinions. However, I can't refer to Bill Cooper's views without noting that there are, um, some credibility issues in relation to a number of his statements and allegations against numerous researchers). Since the discussion about Klass seem to have been rumbling on since his death, I thought some members of the List might be interested in a list of further references to discussions of Klass. These are set out below. I would highlight the 28 page discussion by Travis Walton in his "Fire In The Sky : The Walton Experience" (1997) which is (as one might expect given the context) highly critical of Klass - see pages 141 (in Chapter 10), 272-274, 277, 279-280 (in Chapter 16), 285-292, 295-302, 343-344, 358-359, 370 (in the Appendix) of the Marlowe & Co softcover edition. By the way, in relation to your on-going debates with John Rimmer I'm not entirely comfortable with the apparent implicit assumption on both sides that John represents all British ufologists. We Brits come in a variety of shapes and sizes. (I admit, however, to sharing John's view that the best bagels in Britain are to be found in Brick Lane in east London. I'm not so convinced about his views on where to find the best curries, and some of his views on ufology). All the best, Isaac Koi Baker, Alan in his "The Encyclopaedia of Alien Encounters" (1999) at page 137 (in an entry entitled "Klass, Philip Julian") of the Virgin hardback edition. Barry, Bill in his "Ultimate Encounter" (1978) at pages 146 (in Chapter 11), 167-180 (in Chapter 14) of the Corgi paperback edition. Blum, Howard in his "Out There" (1990) at pages 214-220 (in Chapter 31) of the Simon & Schuster hardback edition, pages 237- 243 of the Pocket Star paperback edition. Clark, Jerome in his "The UFO Encyclopedia: 1st edition: Volume 1 - UFOs in the 1980s" (1990) at pages 150-151 of the Apogee hardback edition in an entry entitled "Klass, Philip Julian (1919- )". Clark, Jerome in his "The UFO Encyclopedia: The Phenomenon from the Beginning - 2nd edition" (1998) at pages 564-566 of Volume 1:A-K (in an entry entitled "Klass, Philip Julian (1919- )") of the Omnigraphics hardback edition. Clark, Jerome in his "The UFO Encyclopedia: The Phenomenon from the Beginning - 2nd edition" (1998) in Volume 2:L-Z at pages 597-598 (forming part of an entry entitled "McDonald, James Edward (1920-1971)") of the Omnigraphics hardback edition. Cohen, Daniel in his "The World of UFOs" (1978) at page 80 (in Chapter 10) of the Lippincott hardback edition. Conroy, Ed in his "Report on Communion" (1989) at pages 204 (in Chapter 6), 332, 333 (in Chapter 9) of the Avon paperback edition. Cooper, William in his "Behold a Pale Horse" (1991) at pages 226, 228 (in Chapter 12) of the Light Technology softcover edition. Darling, David in his online encyclopedia, "The Encyclopedia of Astrobiology, Astronomy and Spaceflight" (2003) in the entry entitled "Klass, Philip J". The relevant entry is available online at: http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/K/Klass.html Dolan, Richard M in his "UFOs and the National Security State: Volume 1" (2000) at page 403 (in Chapter 7) of the Keyhole softcover edition, at pages 309-310 of the 2002 revised Hampton Road softcover edition. Edelson, Edward in his "Who Goes There?" (1978) at page 82 (in Chapter 7) of the NEL paperback edition (with the same page numbering in the NEL paperback edition combining this book and Chris Boyce's "Extraterrestrial Encounter). Edwards, Frank in his "Flying Saucers - Here and Now!" (1967) at pages 94-95 (in Chapter 8) of the Bantam paperback edition. Emmons, Charles F in his "At The Threshold: UFOs, Science and the New Age" (1997) at pages 86-87 (in Chapter 5), 229-230 (in the Appendix, entitled "Ufologist Case Studies / Biographies) of the Wild Flower Press softcover edition. Fowler, Raymond E in his "Casebook of a UFO Investigator" (1981) at pages 19-20 (in Chapter 2) of the Prentice-Hall hardback edition. Friedman, Stanton in an interview in "UFOs And The Alien Presence: Six Viewpoints" (1991) (Edited by Michael Lindemann) at page 14 (in Chapter 1) of the 2002 Group softcover edition. Friedman, Stanton T in his "Top Secret - MAJIC" (1997) at pages 119-126 (in Chapter 7) of the Michael O' Mara hardback edition. Hall, Michael David in his "UFOs : A Century of Sightings" (1999) at page 302 (in Chapter 7) of the Galde Press softcover edition. Hall, Richard in his "Uninvited Guests" (1988) at pages 115-116 (in Chapter 6), 184-185 (in Chapter 12) of the Aurora Press paperback edition. Holzer, Hans in his "The UFOnauts" (1976) at page 16 (in Chapter 1) of the Fawcett Gold Medal paperback edition. Hynek, J Allen and Vallee, Jacques in their "The Edge of Reality" (1975) at page 230 (in Chapter 8) of the Henry Regnery hardback edition. Keel, John in his "Disneyland of the Gods" (1988) at page 28 (in the unnumbered chapter entitled "A Short History of Boobery") of the I-Net softcover edition. Lyne, William P in his "Space Aliens from the Pentagon" (1995) at pages 212-213 (in Chapter 8) of the Creatopia Productions softcover edition. Meaden, Terence in his "The Circles effect and its Mysteries" (1989) at page 98 (in Chapter 7) of the Artetech hardback edition. Moseley, James and Pflock, Karl in their "Shockingly Close to the Truth!" (2002) at pages 229-230 (in Chapter 10), 323-324 (in Chapter 18) of the Prometheus hardback edition. Quintanilla, Hector (Major) in his unpublished manuscript entitled "UFOs: An Air Force Dilemma" (copyright 1974) at page 22 of the manuscript, at page 35 of the NIDS pdf version available free on-line on various websites, including at the following link: http://www.nidsci.org/pdf/quintanilla.pdf Randles, Jenny in "The UFO Conspiracy" (1987) at pages 104-105 (in Chapter 17) of the Barnes & Noble hardback edition. Randles, Jenny in her "Abduction" (1988) at page 195 (in Chapter 10) of the Hale hardback edition (with the same page numbering in the Headline paperback edition). Ritchie, David in his "UFO : The Definitive Guide" (1994) at pages 119-120 (in an entry entitled "Klass, Philip (1919- )") of the MJF hardback edition. Sachs, Margaret in her "The UFO Encyclopedia" (1980) at pages 172-173 (in an entry entitled "Klass, Philip J.") of the Corgi softback edition. Saunders, David R and Harkins, R Roger, with lengthy extract, in their "UFOs? Yes!" (1968) at page 178 (in Chapter 17) of the Signet paperback edition. Schnabel, Jim in his "Dark White" (1994) at pages 92-112 (Chapter 6 generally), 114 (in Chapter 7), 279 (in the Epilogue) of the Hamish Hamilton softcover edition. Shostak, Seth in his "Sharing The Universe" (1998) at page 137 (in Chapter 7) of the Berkeley Hills softcover edition. Slater, Philip in his "The Wayward Gate: Science and the Supernatural" (1977) at pages 70, 79 (in Chapter 3) of the Beacon hardback edition. Spencer, John and Spencer, Anne in their "Fifty Years of UFOs" (1997) at page 63 (in the unnumbered chapter entitled "1957- 1967") of the Boxtree hardback edition. Stanton, L Jerome in his "Flying Saucers : Hoax or Reality?" (1966) at page 20 (in Chapter 1) of the Belmont paperback edition. Story, Ronald in "The Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters" (2001) (edited by Ronald Story) at pages 300-301 (in an entry entitled "Klass, Philip J") of the New American Library softcover edition, at pages 293-295 of the pdf edition (with the same page numbering in the Microsoft Word edition). Story, Ronald in "The Encyclopedia of UFOs" (1980) (edited by Ronald Story) at page 198 (in an entry entitled "Klass, Philip J.") of the NEL hardback edition. Story, Ronald in "The Mammoth Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters" (2001) (edited by Ronald Story) at pages 360-361 (in an entry entitled "Klass, Philip J") of the Robinson softcover edition. Thompson, Keith in his "Angels and Aliens: UFOs and the Mythic Imagination" (1991) at page 180 (in Chapter 13) of the Fawcett softcover edition. Tonnies, Mac in his "After the Martian Apocalypse" (2004) at page 249 (in Chapter 11) of the Paraview Pocket Books softcover edition. Vallee, Jacques in his "Forbidden Science: Journals 1957-1969." (1992) at pages 242-243 (in Chapter 14, journal entry for 1967.0206) of the North Atlantic Books hardback edition, at pages 246-247 of the 1996 abridged Marlowe paperback edition. Walton, Travis in his "Fire In The Sky : The Walton Experience" (1997) at pages 141 (in Chapter 10), 272-274, 277, 279-280 (in Chapter 16), 285-292, 295-302, 343-344, 358-359, 370 (in the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 43 From: John Hayes <John.nul> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 19:36:20 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:12:46 -0500 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 43 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan.nul> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 10, Number 43 November 9, 2005 Editor: Joseph Trainor E-mail: Masinaigan.nul Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ LUMINOUS UFOs SIGHTED IN LUDLOW, SHROPSHIRE, UK On Sunday, October 23, 2005, at 8:45 p.m., eyewitness Sharon F. was "looking at Clee Hill from Ludlow," Shropshire, UK when she and her companions "saw a long line of colour-changing lights above Clee Hill. As the frame of reference, Clee Hill is about 600 meters (1,980 feet), and the objects appeared to be about 200 feet above" the summit. "We watched it for ten minutes. Then we decided to drive two minutes away to get binoculars for a better view. On returning, the objects had disappeared. Nothing was vicible in the sky, as there was complete low cloud cover." Sharon described the lights as "a long line of lights visible below the cloud level, changing colour, these appeared to be red, blue, green and orange." "I was very interested to hear that somebody nearby had had a sighting within two days of this." Sharon added, noting that the Shropshire Star had reported a UFO in the vicinity of the motorway A5 on October 22, 2005. (Email Form Report) LARGE LIVESTOCK TANK MYSTERIOUSLY DRAINED OF WATER IN ARGENTINA "In the early morning hours of (Monday) October 31, 2005," approximately "70,000 liters of water were found to be missing from a tank habitually employed to provide livestock with water." The bizarre incident took place on a ranch located 15 kilometers (9 miles) south of Parera in central Argentina's La Pampa province, just off Provincial Route 9. According to ufologist Scott Corrales, "One of the most startling aspects of the 2002 cattle mutilation wave in Argentina was the disappearance of tremendous amounts of water from large cisterns known as 'tanques australianos' (literally, 'Australian tanks'-S.C.) in Argentina's cattle ranching communities. Entire swimming pools were drained empty in Santa Rosa, Argentina at the same time." "Miguel Garrone, who leases the La Cabana ranch, says the tank was filled to the maximum on Saturday evening," October 29, 2005, "and was found completely empty in the early morning hours of Monday," October 31, 2005. "No signs of breakage or filtration were found, not signs of moisture in the perimeter that could provide an answer to such a strange phenomenon." "The livestock rancher indicated his astonishment, stressing that this is not the first time that such an event has occurred in the area." "It is worth noting that on July 2, 2006, on a ranch belonging to Adolfo Ziegenfhus, some 4 kilometers (1.3 miles) from Quetrequen and 12 kilometers (7 miles) from Parera, another 70,000 liters of water vanished in a similar fashion-mysteriously and at night-without any trace ever being detected, not the existence of a leak or filtration that would justify the missing water ever being found." (Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Raul Oscar Chavez de CIUFOS-La Pampa para estas noticias.) UNUSUAL FIREBALL SEEN IN RICHMOND, VIRGINIA On Monday, October 31, 2005, at 9:30 p.m., Martha Jones was outdoors in Richmond, the state capital of Virginia, when she spotted an unusual object in the night sky. "It approached from the west and was headed east," Martha reported, "It was a very low fireball with a shrewoosh sound. It was yellow and orange in color, circular at the head with a long flakey tail. I'd say it was about a couple of thousand feet up and flying at about 150 miles per hour. It scared the (deleted) out of me!" "It wasn't reported in the local media. I don't see why not." (Email Form Report) OVAL UFO SPOTTED IN MAMMOTH SPRING, ARKANSAS On Saturday, October 29, 2005, at 7:35 p.m., the eyewitness, Mrs. McNeely, was at her home in Mammoth Spring, Arkansas, she reported, "when my husband called me onto our front deck to see a 'bright light in the sky.' Our horses were in the front pasture and seemed very uncomfortable." "The light was extremely bright, oval to round, and stationary. There were no clouds in the sky this evening, and few stars, none bright. No detectable wind as the tree branches were not moving." "The light was a fair distance away, at least three of four miles (5 to 6 kilometers). The object appeared to move closer, then away-remaining stationary for 15 to 20 minute intervals between shifts in position. The object did not appear to be a plane, helicopter or any other form aircraft familiar to us." "The last time we stepped outside to observe the object was after midnight, when it disappeared completely. It just flicked out of sight." (Email Form Report) ORANGE-WHITE UFO SIGHTED OVER LAKE IN JACKSON, MICHIGAN On Wednesday, November 2, 2005, at 8 p.m., eyewitness Kevin Fisher spotted a mysterious "bright white and orange light in the sky either zipping or staying still. It either went behind the tree line or disappeared." Kevin was at Gilletes Lake in Jackson, Michigan when he spotted the UFO on the west side of the lake. "It was a white orange color. I have been seeing them for the past year. I think one night when I was at the warehouse in Parma last year, a UFO came over the hill and it was white, then turned orange, and then it hit me with a spotlight." "Then I woke up on my couch in my barn office. Missing time. I think I'm now being watched every now and then." "The UFO was very slow except when I called other witnesses to look at it. Then it took off, but some of the witnesses did see it. I've had multiple sightings during the past few years." (Email /Form Report) NUMEROUS LARGE FIREBALLS SEEN OVER BERLIN "Numerous sightings of large fireballs over Germany this week have led to an upsurge in reports of UFOs, but scientists believe the cause is a bizarre annual meteor blitz." "Many people in Germany have noticed the fireballs, said Werner Walter, an amateur astronomer in Mannheim who runs a Web site on unexplained astronomical phenomena, with a hotline for reports of unidentified flying objects." "'The last reported sighting was yesterday (Thursday, November 3, 2005) at 7:30 p.m. in a corridor along the border with the Netherlands,'" Walter reported. "'This week, we have had at least 15 emails and phone calls from people reporting fireballs,' he said, 'Some people said it looks like something out of a science fiction film.'" "In addition to a possible meteor shower, Walter said amateur and professional astronomers were considering that the blitz was the result of a 'falling satellite or space junk.'" "NASA's science Web site mentions reports of recent fireball sightings in the United States, Canada, the Netherlands, Northern Ireland and Japan." "Walter described them as 'super-large, colored fireballs that shoot with the speed of lightning through the sky.'" "However, the NASA Web site quotes meteor expert David Asher from the Armagh Observatory in Northern Ireland as saying that people 'are probably seeing the Taurid meteor shower.'" "Taurids are meteors that shoot out of the constellation Taurus." The shower peaks during late October and early November each year. (See the Suddeutsche Zeitung for November 4, 2005, "Fireballs spark talk of UFOs.") Well, that's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-UFO Roundup." See you next time! UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2005 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com Home to UFO Roundup, Encounters With Aliens On This Day, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert Rosales), Filer's Files, UFO News UK and more... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers. If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received the bulletin in error, please write to:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? - Miller From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:52:31 +0000 (GMT) Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:14:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? - Miller >From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 05:47:22 -0800 >Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:33:49 EST >>Subject: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>http://www.greatdreams.com/Falcon-Richard-Doty.htm <snip> >Well, it seems that Mr. Doty is still well versed in the art >of lying. When I told his co-author Robert Collins that Rick >was on C-2-C, Bob phoned Rick to ask him about it and guess >what? He denied that it was him. I had to send Collins a >voice track from the show before he would believe it was >Doty. This got him angry as his best buddy lied to him! >In my book, this casts a large shadow on all statements made >by Doty about Paul Bennewitz and Linda Howe, especially when >Doty said he had been in the "Dulce facility" himself at LANL >and his story of his presence at an interview with EBE-2 is >in the book he co-authored (he denies co-authoring it too, >saying he only contributed material). Read the book: Exempt >From Disclosure. >Bill Moore isn't exactly Mr. honest either. Bill, Rick Doty is my most favourite person in the whole world. I won't hear a good word said about him. I read a summary of the C2C interview on the web site at the time and the weird thing about it was that apparently, in concluding the interview, Doty said he really did believe that ET was visiting Earth. That struck me as a very odd thing to say when in the previous hour or whatever, he had been blathering on about sitting face to face with an alien and that they liked strawberry ice cream and Tibetan music. It was almost as if the listener was expected to know that the whole interview was rubbish but at the end, those were his real thoughts. If you heard the interview Bill, was that how it came across? Also, is he bonkers or is he just having a laugh? I'll rephrase that; Is Mr. Doty suffering from some sort of pathology or has
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Dolan From: Richard Dolan <keyhole.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:08:46 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:17:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found - Dolan >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:56:35 -0800 >Subject: Re: Philip Klass Letter Found >>From: Richard Dolan <keyhole.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:10:57 -0500 >>Subject: Philip Klass Letter Found >>Greetings, >>Last month, while I was at the Canadian National Archives, in >>Ottawa, Ontario, I found an interesting letter from the recently >>deceased UFO debunker, Philip J. Klass. This letter was >>apparently previously unknown. I suspect that it would be of >>interest to some people in the UFO field, and I put it on my >>website last week, at: >>http://keyholepublishing.com >Hello Richard: >It took a while, the page doesn't download fast on a slow >dial-up connection like I have. It finally came in regardless. >Kudos for the find, I'm impressed. >Formerly, I held the view that Klass was an honest skeptic, but >the letter you found undercuts all that. >What I see is a secret and mean spirited message intended to >damage Stanton Friedman and his efforts, all without his >knowledge. >Friedman and I have our own disagreements, Roswell mainly, >government conspiracies maybe, but those differences are >entirely beside the point. >What I fear I see is an attempt to poison the waters, so that >Stan Friedman and others like him are unable to >learn anything. I find that frightening. Hi Larry, Sorry about the long loading time for the file on Klass's letter. I decided to make the jpeg size as large as I reasonably could, simply so that people could have as high-res of a version of it as possible. It's hard to deny that the letter was below the belt. Also, it surely does appear to be in keeping with other actions by Klass over the years. However, I should take this opportunity to make a correction to my piece, brought to my attention by Ray Boeche. I had mistakenly written that the 1983 conference sponsored by MUFON at the Univ. Nebraska did proceed despite Klass's intervention. Ray corrected me on this - it was indeed cancelled.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics - From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:16:51 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:27:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics - >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 05:35:19 -1000 >Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >>Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 4:36 AM >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >>Source: UFO*BC - Vancouver, Canada >>http://www.ufobc.ca/Beyond/exopolitics.htm >>Nov 5, 2005 >>Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >>By Gord Heath <snip> >Thank you for forwarding this story on Paul Hellyer. I think >Hellyer's emergence is significant to UFO researchers for a >number of reasons. <snip> >Third, Hellyer demonstrates the approach that many senior >politicians will take to the UFO phenomenon. They are not likely >to be impressed by the data base of UFO sightings accumulated by >many researchers, but are more likely to be convinced by the >testimony of a whistleblower whose identity is informally >confirmed through one's system of contacts. This in my view >points to emergence of exopolitics as the more suitable approach >to the indisputable government cover up of UFO data and the ETH. Hi Michael! I enjoyed reading Gord Heath's article on UFO*BC (although I thought Paul Kimball's comments regarding Hellyer were extreme and focused on attacking the messenger instead of his message). I agree with you that Paul Hellyer's public testimony regarding UFOs is important, not just to UFO researchers, but to all of us. Much more will be revealed about UFOs in Hellyer's 13th (and final) book. Paul Hellyer may not have been particularly interested in UFOs during his term as Minister of National Defense but this was not because the subject matter was never brought up. Ministers are always very busy with many other more urgent matters so even if UFOs posed a possible threat to us, his generals and subordinates would deal with it. For example, when President Richard Nixon threatened to send troops into Canada to protect "U.S. interests" during the FLQ crisis of 1970, Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau invoked the Wars Measures Act to quickly end this 'crisis' thereby preventing this U.S. overreaction which could have evolved into a war between Quebec and the rest of Canada against the U.S. Also, on two occasions in 1950 U.S. military aircraft intentionally dropped nuclear bombs and dentonated then in the air over Canada. In both of these examples, the Ministers of National Defense at the time were not aware or fully briefed of these incidents. Hellyer was a close friend of Dr. Peter Millman, a National Research Council astronomer (a pioneer in the radio detection and tracking of meteors), who along with Wilbert B. Smith was involved in both 'Project Magnet' and 'Project Second Story', two Canadian Government UFO projects. He was aware of other non- government UFO projects, including the secret flying saucer (not the Avrocar) being built by A.V. Roe Canada just outside Toronto. In a letter to Grant Cameron from Dr. Millman at NRC dated 2 October 1987 - from the UFO archives at the University of Ottawa - he claimed "...I have no recollection of any conversation with...[Hellyer] where UFOs were even mentioned." In this same letter he wrote "...I was very familiar [1943-1946] with the handling of large masses of top-secret material.", and "When I agreed to take over the UFO file from DND [Department of National Defense] in 1968 at the request of our Minister, the Hon. C.M. Drury, it was on the understanding that I would not be required to handle classified material. Although Hellyer and Millman used to see each other regularly at church on Sundays, he also wrote "I certainly had heard vague rumours about some attempt to build a UFO landing site in western Canada [CFB Suffield in the 1950s] ...I certainly cannot tell the DND side of the story...". Later this year I have been promised a CD with the complete index of all of Millman's papers and personal correspondence. If what the head archivist and the work-study student from Algonquin College have seen so far is any indication, there are a lot of things about incredible UFOs and ETs that Millman was aware of which was not made public. This CD together with Hellyer's book should reveal a lot more about UFOs and their
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 14:36:13 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:00:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Clark >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 14:45:38 -0400 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:46:26 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 10:53:16 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:21:40 -0600 >>>>Subject: Who Was Philip J. Klass? Hi, Don, >>If no evidence exists to support the allegation that Klass's >>had a secret life as a government agent - and it doesn't - the >>hypothesis becomes an unnecessary one. We simply don't need >>it to explain his behavior. Don't give the guy too much >>credit, Don. >After I sent this Jerry, I reread it and noted that I probably >came across as decrying Klass as a hard-core agent and that >wasn't my intent, either in response to your reply or in my >original question to the list. >Allow me clarify. >Klass came to AW&ST in 1954 during the McCarthy era and the >middle of House Un-American Activities Committee deliberations. >It appears he was a undescerning patriot which some of his >writing tends to support [re: your article The Debunkers vs. the >UFO Menace; or, Is Ufology Tantamount to Communism? at: >http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/debunk1.htm >Perhaps it was reflected in his musings back then, possibly >during his tenure at General Electric. GE had it's share of Top >Secret work and I'm sure as an engineer, Klass came in contact >with some of it and may even have had some low-level government >clearance in that regard where his work as an Electrical Engineer >touched on Top Secret projects. >What if his strong patriotic stance caught the attention of >those looking for an advocate and who was now about to begin a >career with an aviation and aerospace magazine? Klass's definition of "patriotism" was not and is not my own, and I'm sure not yours, either. He defined patriotism as loyalty to the state in its most rigid, armed, and authoritarian aspects. I think that temperamentally he was attracted to the military, the Defense Department, and the corporate entities with which they interact and prosper in what Eisenhower called the military-industrial complex. Klass belonged to a generation of right-wing journalists attracted to an illiberal brand of anti-Communism which led a number to enlist in Sen. McCarthy's crusade. >Without trying to enlist him would they not have been able to >simply appeal to his patriotism and perhaps share their >"concerns" about the direction that this flying saucer thing was >taking and how there was some reason to suspect the Soviets were >behind the scare mongering? If there is a big UFO cover-up (how I feel about that depends generally upon what the phase of the moon is at the moment, or how many cups of coffee I happen to have consumed), I doubt very much that Klass knew of it. That said, yes, he could well have been a useful idiot in a cover-up's service. His Pentagon contacts could have pumped him for information without betraying their true purpose. Klass could honestly have thought that he was "merely" reporting on prying, potentially disloyal ufologists who might accidentally (or purposely) expose some classifed aviation-technology project while hunting, say, for crashed saucers. Based on what he remarked to the University of Nebraska, too, he probably didn't appreciate ufologists' lack of proper reverence for U.S. government pronouncements. Klass actually stated to me that no patriotic American could ever believe a President would lie. As I say, he was in many ways a child. And not a charming one. I appreciate your clarification, Don. It appears that we're largely in agreement, just using slightly different language and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:17:06 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:02:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Rudiak >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:02:46 -0600 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 12:39:18 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:21:40 -0600 >>>Subject: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>I am discouraged to see speculations, as unconnected to >>demonstrable evidence as the sweeping pronouncements of >>pelicanists, that charge Klass with being a government agent >>tasked to debunk UFOs - in which, one surmises, we are to think >>he privately knew to exist. >>Don Berliner of the Fund for UFO Research saw this post and had >>a few comments to add to the mix: >>"There is some circumstantial evidence supporting the theory >>that Klass was a government agent. He made his debut in the UFO >>field in the summer of 1966, when Aviation Week published his >>two-part series "explaining" all UFO sightings as electrical >>phenomena, e.g. plasmas. At the same time, he began breaking a >>long string of stories about classified Government avionics >>research and development. This not only made Klass' reputation, >>but it played the major role in giving tthe magazine the >>nickname of 'Aviation Leak'". >>"When accused of being a Government agent, Klass always insisted >>that he had never taken a penny from the Government. He never, >>to my knowledge, denied taking valuable information in exchange >>for his anti-UFO tirades." >On the other hand, he was very much a creature of the military- >industrial complex. I recall a particularly funny episode once, >when in the middle of a scandal about Pentagon "overruns" (less >politely, horrendous price-gouging on things like contracts for >toilet seats), Klass emotionally defended the practice on the >grounds that these guys were to be respected because they beat >the Communists and it was not for us, as mere citizens and >taxypayers, to question their actions. Beyond that, Klass's >politics were, no surprise, far to the right. He was >temperamentally authoritarian. >I have no doubt that if some ufologist accidentally stumbled >upon a national-security secret (such as information about an >advanced, experimental military aircraft), Klass would not have >hesitated - secretly, naturally - to inform the FBI or whatever >relevant federal police agency and to encourage investigation >and, if possible, arrest of said ufologist. >That, however, is not the same as Klass's being a "government >agent" in the ordinarily understood sense of the phrase. For >that, no evidence has ever been shown to exist, and moreover, >as I've stated elsewhere, it is not a hypothesis necessary to >explain the man's strange behavior. So Klass' psychological profile was of a far-right authoritarian, i.e. fascistic, plus being a lying, bombastic bully, backstabber, and character assassin, seemingly lacking empathy or a conscience, i.e. sociopathic. Those sound like virtual job requirements for a secret government black ops propagandist. Decent people with even minimal moral scruples need not apply. Like a number of others, my gut feeling is that Klass was a government spook or asset, even if proof is lacking. Even if not officially on the payroll, he could be paid off through regular leaks of aviation information to enhance his position at Aviation Week, plus landing a number of book deals. If he received large sums of money in book advances (instead of the normal pittance that most authors receive from publishers), that alone would tell us a great deal. I have also noticed for some time that many (though certainly not all) UFO debunkers seem to fit a very similar psychological profile. One could start with Menzel. CSICOP seems to be full of them. That doesn't mean they are all spooks, but there is something very odd and extremely unsettling about the identical
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:33:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:03:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - White >From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 12:58:17 +0000 (GMT) >Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? <snip> >Tell me about it Greg. >Enforced UK mental hospital stays. Bunged up with >anti-psychotics and anti depressants since 1970 and I am still >alive despite all recommendations to die from the abduction >experiences and side effects from these medications. >Anyone for some treatment for Delusions? I'm for treating _psychiatrists_ for delusions, psychiatrists who delude themselves into thinking they have a mandate to be 'thought police', instead of their legitimate purpose of helping people with such serious mental problems that they literally
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:29:12 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:10:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Sparks >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 14:45:38 -0400 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:46:26 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 10:53:16 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:21:40 -0600 >>>>Subject: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <snip> >>Klass represented an >>approach, to paraphrase Barry Goldwater's notorious speech at >>the 1964 GOP convention, in which extremism in defense of >>rationalism is no vice. Klass was hardly the only debunker who >>has operated on that principle. That's the best explanation of all. <snip> >Klass came to AW&ST in 1954 during the McCarthy era and the >middle of House Un-American Activities Committee deliberations. >It appears he was a undescerning patriot which some of his <snip> And he did virtually _nothing_ on UFO's for all those 12 years from 1954 to 1966. How do you explain that? >What if his strong patriotic stance caught the attention of <snip> >simply appeal to his patriotism and perhaps share their <snip> >inside sources but is not inside himself. But he's riding the >high of his own patriotism and perceived connection to <snip> >all the more reason for his type of personality to get sucked in, >like the guy running around with a pretend police badge because >the police asks him to keep his eyes open. Klass' politics were left-liberal until the 80's when he married an anti-communist Hungarian gal and then he shifted to the right. He held Nixon in contempt over Watergate, constantly joking and criticizing the right and its conspiratorial views. Klass fit right in with the left-liberal politics of CSICOP and its parent org the American Humanist Association, hardly the bastion of right-wing politics. In the early 60's Klass had secret meetings with a Soviet GRU intelligence officer Cdr. Vtorigin (Klass called him "KGB") on his yacht so that he could evade FBI surveillance of Vtorigin, as he admitted to various people in the 70's. Klass told several UFO researchers that he found suspicious people asking questions after his meetings with Vtorigin and he thought these were FBI agents prowling around. This picture of Klass does not sound like some super-patriot right-winger eager to use his "pretend police badge" to turn in alleged spies and subversives, but that he was one of those that a super-patriot would be turning in! Klass told these FBI surveillance stories to prove that as a journalist he had the right to talk to whomever he wanted! That is a very liberal progressive viewpoint, stressing freedom of the press, free speech, freedom of association, strong civil liberties ACLU-type viewpoint, the antithesis of your "police" stooge caricature of Klass. Even by telling these stories Klass was encouraging the subversive notion that people _should_ do as
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 17:22:52 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:11:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rimmer >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 12:56:47 -0400 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism [was: Gill Sighting] >>From: John Harney <magonia.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 19:00:59 -0000 >>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:59:22 -0600 >>>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>Yes, but you can't leave out the theory without being logically >>inconsistent. You can't make any sense out of the data you are >>studying unless you have some kind of theory. And if you do not >>subscribe to the ETH, how could you write the following? >>>Spare us the transparent fiction of a "less critical attitude to >>>witnesses." In fact, I see no evidence of that at all. What I do >>>see on your end is simple, endless repetitive rejection of >>>anything you don't want to hear. Witness or witnesses report a >>>structured craftlike object with extraordinary performance >>>characteristics, and all you need to declare is that he, she, or >>>they couldn't have seen any such thing and thus were in error. >>If you say they could have seen such things, and they were not >>misperceptions, then where could these "structured craftlike >>objects" be from but some other planet? It seems it's okay to >>_imply_ the ETH so long as you don't spell it out. However, you >>can't have it both ways; either you take these "structured >>craft" reports as being literally true and thus subscribe to the >>ETH, or you regard them as misperceptions and subscribe to the >>PSH. Either way, why not be open about it? >John, (Note: This is the other Pelicanist John replying) >If it's any help, I believe that the hard core sightings [in >particular airborne encounters - and go research them yourself] >which can't be explained as the prosaic are likely the result of >some ETI. It's not a stretch for me. But feel free to begin your >proclamation by denigration and let's see where it leads. I will make no such proclamation. I have always said that, although I do not agree with them, proponents of the ETH, or (ETI, which I accept is a more accurate label) have adopted a logical position. It is people who adopt the curious position that some UFO reports are the result of sightings of "structured craft" which have characteristics which demonstrate that they
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? - Bishop From: Greg Bishop <exclmid.nul> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 20:44:29 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:19:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? - Bishop >From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 05:47:22 -0800 >Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:33:49 EST >>Subject: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>http://www.greatdreams.com/Falcon-Richard-Doty.htm Bill and Greg, I checked this site. There are some little-known (possible) facts here. There are also some complete errors. A couple of examples: Bennewitz did not contact guards at Kirtland and ask them to keep him informed about sightings at the base. A civilian cannot do this. Leo Sprinkle did not hypnotize Myrna Hansen over a "period of three months." His first visit was on May 7, 1980, where Hansen was hypnotized once, perhaps twice. His second and final visit was on June 3rd. Dr. Sprinkle did not agree with the direction that the hypnosis sessions were going and the influence that Paul Bennewitz had on Hansen's recall. Sprinkle personally told me this in an interview I conducted for "Project Beta," and I reported it. Who is the Dee Finney whose note is at the top of the Bennewitz page? I also looked at their main page. At the top is a quote from Sean Morton, which to my mind is a very bad sign. The rest of the page deals with end-times prophecies and other new age philosophy tinged with a conspiratorial bent. While this is not bad in itself, it puts much of the research and cited facts on this site into serious question. >>I totally missed this interview of Mr. Doty on C2C earlier this >>year. I'll have to go back into the archives and listen in. You should. I didn't plan it, and Doty pretty much took over the interview after the first half-hour. My impression was that the some of things he said were true, others might be, and some were probably complete fabrications. Citing "inside information on ETVs myself because of group affiliations, friends and personal experiences" Ms. Finney says she "personally heard so many lies in this interview." If this woman had met Rick Doty in the 1980s, (and he hadn't been "outed") I daresay that she would have defended anyone who came along later who said he was lying, since Doty would have cultivated her trust, just as other anonymous sources have muddied the waters since. >>The website above however gives some chilling look into this >>matter of Mr. Bennewitz. I won't go further as many of you are >>well heeled in it. I'm just curious as to the pro level analysis >>of the data on the site. Looking around on the internet and using only the information that agrees with your preconceptions is not the sort of analysis or research that will convince anyone outside of others who agree with you. Further down the page, there's even a swipe from one of the sites that uses my image and announcement of my talk (the NUFOC convention I think), even though it's obvious that the person didn't read my book. >Well, it seems that Mr. Doty is still well versed in the art of >lying. When I told his co-author Robert Collins that Rick was on >C-2-C, Bob phoned Rick to ask him about it and guess what? >He >denied that it was him. I had to send Collins a voice track from >the show before he would believe it was Doty. This got him >angry >as his best buddy lied to him! Collins asked me about this and tried to get me to give him Doty's home number so that he could check up on it. I couldn't do this because if he was asking for the number, I couldn't be sure if Doty just didn't want to talk to him. Collins seemed to think that there were TWO Richard Dotys floating about. Doty was apparently unhappy about how Collins presented his evidence and almost backed out of the project. Who's fooling who and who do you trust? If you think Doty co-authored the book, how can you trust anything in it? >In my book, this casts a large shadow on all statements made >by >Doty about Paul Bennewitz and Linda Howe, especially when >Doty >said he had been in the "Dulce facility" himself at LANL and his >story of his presence at an interview with EBE-2 is in the book >he co-authored (he denies co-authoring it too, saying he only >contributed material). Read the book: Exempt From Disclosure. Where has he denied co-authoring it? The book makes things very plain by heading Doty's lengthy chapter with his byline. The rest of the book was written by Collins' as far as I know. I must add that it is an essential addition to the library of anyone interested in this issue, no matter what you choose to believe. >Bill Moore isn't exactly Mr. honest either. That's his reputation, but look at what he admitted to doing. Is that a lie too, or are you just listening to things that agree with your preconceptions again? Why admit any of this? It could and did destroy his reputation in the UFO community. Why ruin a good thing? The paranoid view would be that he was TOLD to come clean. That isn't the case. Unless that's a lie too. While I was working on the Bennewitz book, I talked to one researcher who was one of the champions of the John Lear/ Bill Cooper Bennewitz-inspired rumors in the late 1980s. When I told him what I was finding in my research, he said, "Well, I knew that all along." Hindsight makes heroes of anyone who wants to protect his reputation. A lot of patience and a willingness to collect information quietly are probably the best guarantees against falling for disinfo schemes. I noted in "Project Beta" that disinfo flatters the recipient with supposed inside information while skillfully interjecting falsehoods designed to lead the mark away from the "truth" whatever that may be. If you're looking for the truth, you have to be sure that you don't blind yourself for a number of other factors that may be exposed in the search for your truth. Disinfo people are very good at playing on this weakness. The most trusted source may have an agenda that is not in your best interest. Please keep this in mind when talking to those who claim bona-fides and give you information on the sly. Looking at recent developments, I fear the Bennewitz scenario is going to be recreated in the next few months or years, with a whole new cast of characters and the same end result: confusion, a lot of posturing and jockeying for prominence amongst researchers, and in the end, ridicule or indifference from the general public. Again. Best, Greg Bishop
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Second New UFO Sightings Map 1953 - 1956 From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 03:50:38 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:24:06 -0500 Subject: Second New UFO Sightings Map 1953 - 1956 Hello all: Here's another new UFO Sightings Map, for four fairly slow years between major waves, 1953 through 1956 combined. http://www.larryhatch.net/NAM5356.html Compared to earlier maps, I see activity moving into more remote regions with sparse populations. Arizona finally shows activity, along with rural Minnesota and the Dakotas. The page is small and fast loading.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Saturn's Slowed Rotation? From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:04:28 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:25:14 -0500 Subject: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? Has anyone seen an explanation for the slowing of Saturn's rotation as measured by Cassini-Huygens? Please see:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 13:17:05 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:27:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Dickenson >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 14:36:13 -0600 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <snip> >... Klass could honestly have thought that he >was "merely" reporting on prying, potentially disloyal >ufologists who might accidentally (or purposely) expose some >classifed aviation-technology project while hunting, say, for >crashed saucers. <snip> Hi Jerome, That phenomenon - a slur of somehow being 'disloyal' - doesn't only exist for ufologists. In the physical sciences, in social investigations, even when checking the financial (`taxation') stance of a society, I've found the same reflex response. Does it tell us something of our frail human condition? Or just of the mind-set of "authority" and its hangers-on? Cheers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 13:31:21 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:37:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Dickenson >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:33:22 -0500 >Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? ><snip> >I'm for treating _psychiatrists_ for delusions, psychiatrists >who delude themselves into thinking they have a mandate to be >'thought police', instead of their legitimate purpose of helping >people with such serious mental problems that they literally >can't look after themselves. <snip> Hello Eleanor and All, I've heard three prominent psychiatrists, in in-depth interviews, confess they'd been attracted to psychiatry by the thought of "power over the mind". And, when you get down to it, that's just another facet of the unbalanced nature of all those who need power over others. If someone invented a machine that truthfully analyzed a person's mental stability - it would be suppressed by order of "authority", especially by psychiatrists. Guess why? Cheers Ray D
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Chichikov From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:47:20 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:44:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Chichikov >From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:28:31 -0000 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >Hi Jerry, >While I agree with the thrust of your email, I thought it (just >about) worth mentioning that Bill Cooper claimed to have seen >documents demonstrating that Klass was a CIA agent. See the >following in William Cooper's "Behold a Pale Horse" (1991) at >pages 226, 228 (in Chapter 12) of the Light Technology softcover edition: >"Philip Klass is an agent of the CIA. This was stated in the >documents I saw between 1970 and 1973. One of his jobs as an >aviation expert was to debunk everything to do with UFOs. All >military commanders were instructed to call him to gain >information on how to debunk and/or explain UFO contacts and/or >sightings to the public and/or the press if and when the need >arose..." <snip> I should think that someone in Mr. Klass's line of work would find it very difficult not to have some sort of official or unofficial contact with one government security service or another. That would not mean he had to be an 'agent' of one of them, although in an informal sense he might have been considered an agent of influence. How could anyone in his profession be completely independent of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? - Burns From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 14:00:17 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:46:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? - Burns >From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:04:28 -0500 >Subject: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? Pavel,EBK, Listers, >Has anyone seen an explanation for the slowing of Saturn's >rotation as measured by Cassini-Huygens? Please see: >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4640641.stm That is interesting, other news, today in Geneva there is a meeting happening to discuss the suggestion by the US to get rid of GMT/Solar time. The reason for this is that the Earths rotation has also slowed and they keep having to adjust the planets atomic clocks to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 14:01:54 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:48:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? - Dickenson >From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:04:28 -0500 >Subject: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? >Has anyone seen an explanation for the slowing of Saturn's >rotation as measured by Cassini-Huygens? Please see: >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4640641.stm Hi Pavel, No, but most likely explanation is hinted at in the article although not fully explored. I.e. that different latitudes and different layers, of Saturn's (fluid) surface rotate at different rates - as happens with the Sun. The current opinion is that Jupiter, and maybe Saturn also, possibly has a very small, very fast rotating, `metallic' (maybe fluid) core. Something similar - Earth's core's very fast rate of rotation "slipping" when compared with the larger (fluid) mantle. Trouble is - it might mean a magnetic-pole flip for us fairly soon. Cheers Ray D
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? - From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 06:02:11 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:51:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? - >From: Greg Bishop <exclmid.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 20:44:29 -0800 (PST) >Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 05:47:22 -0800 >>Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:33:49 EST >>>Subject: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>>http://www.greatdreams.com/Falcon-Richard-Doty.htm >Bill and Greg, <snip> >>Well, it seems that Mr. Doty is still well versed in the art of >>lying. When I told his co-author Robert Collins that Rick was on >>C-2-C, Bob phoned Rick to ask him about it and guess what? >He >>denied that it was him. I had to send Collins a voice track from >>the show before he would believe it was Doty. This got him >angry >>as his best buddy lied to him! >Collins asked me about this and tried to get me to give him >Doty's home number so that he could check up on it. I couldn't >do this because if he was asking for the number, I couldn't be >sure if Doty just didn't want to talk to him. Collins seemed to >think that there were TWO Richard Dotys floating about. Doty was >apparently unhappy about how Collins presented his evidence and >almost backed out of the project. Who's fooling who and who do >you trust? If you think Doty co-authored the book, how can you >trust anything in it? Doty did not co-author the book, but contributed material to the book, one of which is his story of being present at an interview with EBE-2. Doty was unhappy with material in the book that were contributed from other sources. He wrote to me saying: "I was not the co-author of Collin's book, I think all that has been stated. I contributed to the contents but don't agree with all of it. Rick" I don't fully trust any of them to tell you the truth. I have determined that they tell the truth then load it with misdirectors or, if you will, disinformation. I can usually tease this out, but not in all cases. >>In my book, this casts a large shadow on all statements made >by >>Doty about Paul Bennewitz and Linda Howe, especially when >Doty >>said he had been in the "Dulce facility" himself at LANL and his >>story of his presence at an interview with EBE-2 is in the book >>he co-authored (he denies co-authoring it too, saying he only >>contributed material). Read the book: Exempt From Disclosure. >Where has he denied co-authoring it? The book makes things very >plain by heading Doty's lengthy chapter with his byline. The >rest of the book was written by Collins' as far as I know. I >must add that it is an essential addition to the library of >anyone interested in this issue, no matter what you choose to >believe. Doty stands by his contribution about the EBEs and LANL. >>Bill Moore isn't exactly Mr. honest either. >That's his reputation, but look at what he admitted to doing. Is >that a lie too, or are you just listening to things that agree >with your preconceptions again? Why admit any of this? It could >and did destroy his reputation in the UFO community. Why ruin a >good thing? The paranoid view would be that he was TOLD to come >clean. That isn't the case. Unless that's a lie too. I knew Bill Moore and don't listen to things that just agree with my preconceptions. I would rather use perception than preconception. I have had Bill lie to me directly about Dulce, New Mexico. He may have been following the dictates of his involvement with Falcon at the time. Nevertheless, the info he game me was bogus. This is the problem with dealing with intel and counter-intel operatives. Now, how would I know anything about this? I know a little having served in USAF Security Service and reporting to the NSA with a TS/Crypto clearance. I, myself, was given a cover story to tell the public if asked about my work which was in the field of intelligence. <snip> >P.S. I was involved in a scary auto accident this weekend. I >escaped with minor injuries. The other driver was a Russian >immigrant. Is somebody trying to shut me up? Some would jump >immediately to this conclusion. Perhaps I'm willfully ignorant, >but I don't think so. Sorry about your auto accident. California streets and freeways are hazardous to one's health. I see maniacs on the freeways every day I drive to work.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? - From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 06:04:05 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:53:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:52:31 +0000 (GMT) >Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 05:47:22 -0800 >>Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:33:49 EST >>>Subject: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>>http://www.greatdreams.com/Falcon-Richard-Doty.htm ><snip> >>Well, it seems that Mr. Doty is still well versed in the art >>of lying. When I told his co-author Robert Collins that Rick >>was on C-2-C, Bob phoned Rick to ask him about it and guess >>what? He denied that it was him. I had to send Collins a >>voice track from the show before he would believe it was >>Doty. This got him angry as his best buddy lied to him! >>In my book, this casts a large shadow on all statements made >>by Doty about Paul Bennewitz and Linda Howe, especially when >>Doty said he had been in the "Dulce facility" himself at LANL >>and his story of his presence at an interview with EBE-2 is >>in the book he co-authored (he denies co-authoring it too, >>saying he only contributed material). Read the book: Exempt >>From Disclosure. >>Bill Moore isn't exactly Mr. honest either. >Bill, >Rick Doty is my most favourite person in the whole world. I >won't hear a good word said about him. >I read a summary of the C2C interview on the web site at the >time and the weird thing about it was that apparently, in >concluding the interview, Doty said he really did believe that >ET was visiting Earth. That struck me as a very odd thing to say >when in the previous hour or whatever, he had been blathering on >about sitting face to face with an alien and that they liked >strawberry ice cream and Tibetan music. It was almost as if the >listener was expected to know that the whole interview was >rubbish but at the end, those were his real thoughts. If you >heard the interview Bill, was that how it came across? >Also, is he bonkers or is he just having a laugh? I'll rephrase >that; Is Mr. Doty suffering from some sort of pathology or has >he forgotten he no longer works for AFOSI? Or does he still >think we're all idiots? Stuart, He is able to shift from one foot to another depending on his
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? - From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 06:05:40 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:55:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? - >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:43:36 EST >Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 05:47:22 -0800 >>Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:33:49 EST >>>Subject: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>>http://www.greatdreams.com/Falcon-Richard-Doty.htm <snip> >>In my book, this casts a large shadow on all statements made >by >>Doty about Paul Bennewitz and Linda Howe, especially when >Doty >>said he had been in the "Dulce facility" himself at LANL and his >>story of his presence at an interview with EBE-2 is in the book >>he co-authored (he denies co-authoring it too, saying he only >>contributed material). Read the book: Exempt From Disclosure. >>Bill Moore isn't exactly Mr. honest either. >Oh, I'm off to the store to get me a copy of your book! >I have got to read this for myself! Is it listed on your site? I >don't wanna go to Amazon or Ebay when I can get one directly >from you. Please list your site and any info for us newbies to >this drama. Greg, You can order the book directly from Collins at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Passive Radar - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 14:12:47 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:57:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Passive Radar - Shough >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 12:10:54 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 20:34:43 -0000 >>Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:04:08 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>>Well, I must have misunderstood/misrembered the technical >>>reports I read. If you say that the passive radar is really >>>detecting the meteor bodies thermselves, then I will go along >>>with you until I read otherwise when I get a chance to look >>>again at the literature. >>All you have to do is read what I just wrote there in plain >>sight! Obviously the absolute polar opposite of what you are >>imagining I said. I'll repeat it: "Obviously tiny individual >>dust particles hundreds of miles away are not going to be >>detected by any radar, active or passive, unless they are >>causing plasma trails, but this is just irrelevant." The >>active clause in that sentence remains the last one. >Alright already! According to you, passive radar does not need >to rely upon an ionization trail to detect a meteor. Clearly, >such trails should help "see" objects, large or small (dust). No no no. I wish you wouldn't persist in attributing to me exactly the opposite of what I just said! I frankly don't understand this and will give up trying to communicate the point after this last repetition: Meteor-size dust particles "are not going to be detected by any radar, active or passive, unless they are causing plasma trails". How much plainer can I be? There is, as I mentioned, a frequency dependency in radio scatter from ionisation. In _general_ this favours passive radar arrays exploiting VHF over typical microwave when it comes to detecting phenomena which do happen to cause ionisation (like meteors, say, or aurorae, or some of the things we call UFOs). For a given electron density the former will tend to get stronger backscatter signals. That's all. >However, I think the problem here (or at least that I am having) >is that I do not know the "resolution" of this radar as a >function of distance. As it currently exists, can passive radar >really be used to detect "alien UFO type sized UFO bodies" at >satellite orbit distances or is it limited to 50 miles or what? >What is the size vs distance function regarding passive radar? The size-distance relation you want can't be stated easily. This is a bit like me asking you "How far can an optical telescope see a light?" Kinda depends doesn't it? On the power of the illuminator, and the target RCS at that frequency - which depends on all sorts of variables, not just geometric area - how many illuminators you are using, how many receivers you have and how these are disposed in relation to the illuminators. We can make some guesses about some of these things, but really it's a fishing expedition because we don't know what we're looking for. Ranges reported for a/c targets in typical systems with FM or TV illuminators are up to several hundred km. One example of commercial specs:- the Silent Sentry package in a "mid-range system configuration" is rated at 220 km range for a 10m^2 target at 100 MHz (the RCS varies with the wavelength being exploited at the time) and continuously scans a 90 degree sector to 50 degs elevation using a phased array of aerials that sits on the side of a van. The computer builds track information by analysing the different frequencies scattered by the target. With just one illuminator (only one FM station signal in the area) it produces coarse 2-D tracks, which is greatly refined if there are 2 signals; with 3 signals, one van can generate complete 3-D tracks. It uses commercial off-the-shelf hardware. It has been trialed with various kinds of aircraft, rockets and re-entry vehi cles. Figures for actual target resolution are not given in the material I have, but it is sold as maintaining position, velocity and acceleration data on over 200 target tracks, updated 8 times per second. But remember Silent Sentry is not a multistatic receiver array, just a single passive receiver site using multiple FM illuminators. In a networked multiple receiver array "range" is limited only by the radio (or TV or cellphone or GPS) coverage, and this is essentially saturation from sea level to space, so yes, you could track "alien UFO type sized UFO bodies" (whatever that is) out to orbit or anywhere, in principle. The Manastash Ridge bistatic passive radar at Washington U began studying the structure of the ionosphere E-layer over 100km up (slant ranges of around 500 km) using FM broadcasts many years ago. (It also detects local aircraft of course - and ground echoes from the mountains - but is not designed for that kind of surveillance.) Sahr's and Lind's LOFAR array is designed to map E-layer structure in detail at meter scales and track meteors or other upper-atmosphere phenomena over huge areas with thousands of antennas on baselines hundreds of km long. But without defining what "UFO bodies" means to us, we are asking a completely open question. Without knowing answers in advance (else we should not need to be doing field research) we are presumably interested in a range of possible radar- detectable phenomena - say, unexpected refractive index anomalies, echoes due to wierd ball-lightning or sprite-type events, or those "alien type bodies" (which are exactly how big, by the way, and constructed of what materials and surface textures?) all the way to things we can't presently imagine. >>Nick's focus on the meteor radar (which as I pointed >>out is not a passive radar anyway) seems to >>have fixated you on this issue. I've been trying to explain >>why it is a side issue so as to encourage discussion of >>passive radar, but not very effectively as it seems the >>misunderstandings just get consolidated. >Okay. Meteor "radar" is not passive radar, although passive >radar can be used to detect meteors. Fine, lets move on to the >size versus distance capability of passive radar. I've given some examples. You can also check the various references I listed before. >>>All I can say is that numerous witness cases show such lights >>>going vertically. Optically, we have a alot of support for >>>UFO behavior that can happen. >>Well, all _I_ can say is that numerous reports have radar >>targets travelling at thousands of mph or hovering or >>following aircraft etc. etc. We have support for radar UFO >>behaviour that can happen, too. If you recall, I mentioned >>that certain features of witness accounts suggest ionisation >>effects only as >>one (minor) example of evidence that might favour long-wave >>passive radar cover over microwave active radar, but you >>objected that we needed prior "assurance" that such effects >>existed before this could count as an argument in favour of >>passive radar. Yet witness evidence of lights going vertically >>is not an assurance that future optical tracking will validate >>this behaviour. I hope you see the underlying logical >>equivalence of our positions now. >I think it best to leave out ionization because you say it is >not needed for passive radar. Lets just assume that any >ionization that occurs is too infrequent to be consequential in >trying to design field research experiments. Some things we "know" best about UFOs are that they are reported to emit lots of light, stall cars, interfere with radio transmission etc. These are all rather suggestive. Given these features, and since we have strong reason from elsewhere in geophysics to think that there are types of luminous plasma phenomena flying around, which are at best only very poorly understood in some cases, probably not at all in others, and which therefore overlap to an unknown extent with any category of "UFOs" we use as a template for our design, I don't think we should assume this is an inconsequential issue. However, happily, passive radar tends to be quite favourable for these types of echoes, and might produce useful data. >You are right that just because something happened in the past >does not mean it will happen in the future. No that's not what I said or meant. We don't "know" that it happened in the past. There are _witness_descriptions_ of lights seeming to go straight up to space. Whether there really are phenomena that do this remains to be demonstrated by the likes of your optical triangulation. That was your example of a crucial _future_ evidence test possible with optical triangulation. You'd said that... oh well never mind. >But obviously you >have frequency/percentage of specific types of occurances to >rely upon. Given the bulk of optical sightings and the mere >smattering (you call "numerous") of radar cases (but which are >correlated to optical objects), I still think there is a cost >benefit ratio such that maximum payback is via optical data >with reduced levels of payback for radar, EMF, gravity,etc (in >roughly that order). Yes there there are huge numbers of optical sightings. People are reporting them to newspapers every day. Few of these lights in the sky end up as interesting Unknowns; some are positively identifiable, mostly they just fade away as "insufficient info" cases, maybe this, maybe that. Very few of them have radar corroboration. There are huge numbers of radar sightings too, and most of these would be "insufficient info" as well. Very few of them have visual corroboration. We used to hear about a great many more than we do now of course, when there was a centralised official record. But military technicians and ATC controllers don't phone the local newspaper every time they see an odd blip, and the small number that we do get to hear about have got through the various electronic, operational and reportorial filters I discussed before, whereas the funny-looking star phoned in to the Neasden Advertiser by an astonished milkman doesn't have to go through all these hoops. Maybe if it did the situation would look more symmetrical. So it's not so easy to say we know about too few good radar sightings. Better perhaps to say we know about too _many_ poor optical ones, and then focus on the more reliable cases of both kinds that occur in the area of the overlap. Then the number of good radar-visuals, as a proportion of the number of good visual-only and good radar-only cases, doesn't look so small. As for cost-effectiveness per UFO of optical v. passive radar this remains to be seen, but you have to factor in the potential richness of information gained. A single 3-D optical tracking of a bright light in the local sky might be quite easy. A single 3- D passive radar tracking could be too, when all you might need is a few simple receivers and a laptop. Both methods might contain little useful information other than trajectory. But don't forget to divide your optical bits-per-second rate by the effective down-time due to cloudy weather and daylight etc.; meanwhile the radar is working day and night, whatever the weather. It also works even if the target is not luminous of course, when your optical trackers just stare blindly at the sky. The radar data also contains latent information on the target gained from multiple aspects at multiple frequencies. With the optical, extending your coverage over the horizon with additional optical trackers would incur significant cost per bit gained, because your unit cost is high. With passive radar you can extend your network coverage at minimal cost because your added aerials are cheap. The latent information on target RCS at different frequencies and aspects now goes up exponentially. But as you add more optical trackers all you do is refine the trajectory of the light. You can get more optical information on luminance, spectral analysis etc., and push down your detection threshold to get the faint lights, but this adds new hardware sophistication which costs money. It isn't as clear to me as it is to you that optical compares favourably with passive radar in terms of cost per bit. (I agree that gravity is way down the list!) >Its not that active or passive radar is not worth doing, but >that in a cost restricted environment that the field of Ufology >finds itself, you must spend frugally. certainly. >>>I don't want to discourage. It would be great to get >>>a broad swath of data from every kind >>>of instrument at eveyr frequency. But who will fund this >>>effort? Its always been out of our own pockets. >>>Yes, passive radar may be useful and interesting. I hope you >>>can get funding. >>Well I'm not involved in it, just a bystander supportive of >>Peter Davenport's idea and efforts. I think more of us could >>be. As far as I can see his has been a rather lone voice, as >>Brad Sparks pointed out originally at the start of this thread. >At least we are talking about it. Most seem to ignore it. Absolutely. I'm learning about it by thinking about it. I wasn't as informed as I am now when we started this.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Passive Radar - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 14:17:40 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:59:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Passive Radar - Shough >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:31:19 -0500 (EST) >Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 14:23:53 -0000 >>Subject: Re: Passive Radar >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 12:05:57 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >>>Subject: Re: Passive Radar <snip> Hi James I hope we can at some point reach a gentlemanly accommodation on these matters. It might not be today though :-) >>Would you care to guess at the >>number of reports of odd radar echoes where somebody went >>outside to look at the sky and saw nothing visually? >So are radar UFOs only "real" if they are optically confirmed? No! Didn't I say "most of these [reports of odd radar echoes where somebody went outside to look at the sky and saw nothing visually] turn out to be rather weak cases that might be UFOs or might be explainable as AP or multiple-trip echoes or noise tracks etc, and they get forgotten"? This is just a fact - we don't know what the hell most of them are. The vast majority of radar cases I've tried to evaluate end up as "insufficient information", very few as definite "knowns" or as "unknowns". This parallels the case with visual reports. There are a few strong radar cases where nothing was seen in circumstances where you might expect an "object" to be seen; mostly you can't infer anything from the fact the nothing was seen, because there were no observers in the right place at the right time or it was cloudy or things like this. Similarly, you may be able to point to a few strong visual cases of an apparent solid object where everything suggests that it ought to have been radar painted, but wasn't; however mostly we won't be able to infer anything from a lack of radar report, because we don't know for sure that the operator was looking, or that there wasn't a null in the coverage, or if the altitude was wrong, and so on. I've actually already talked about this in my reply to your other post that I just sent and I think it covers the ground. >Do you want to assume all UFOs are radar visible unless proven >otherwise by passive radar data? There are a wide variety of >optical phenomena and likely many electrical phenomena that >cannot be imaged with any kind of radar. I just wish we could unconfuse these issues long enough to get a grip on them! Of course I don't assume "all UFOs are radar visible unless proven otherwise". It baffles me that you could infer such a thing. I'm trying not to assume anything. I don't know what "all UFOs" are. Of course there are optical phenomena that can't be radar imaged (just as there are radar phenomena that can't be optically imaged), and "likely" there are many electrical phenomena we don't understand. This is what I pointed out to _you_: there's lots of possible stuff out there, and a widespread passive radar array has lots of potential for learning more about many of them - aliens included! <snip> >>How can you possibly say >>that well-reported official radar-visual cases are pointless, >>whereas internet anecdotes about Mrs. Jones seeing a light and >>phoning the local airport are a meaningful dataset? >I can easily say it. The reason is because nothing _has_ changed >even with outstanding optical/radar UFO sightings/data/cases. >Why is that? Maybe the investors will be interested. This is fatuous. Obviously "nothing has changed" in the sense you mean - no subset of cases of any kind has yet "proven the case" for UFOs by changing the scientific consensus or whatever your indicator is. That doesn't mean that all subsets of cases are equally (non)evidential, or that all are equally (un)persuasive. If all we had was Mrs. Jones' light (no disrespect to any Mrs.Jones out there!) then the subject would be a great deal less intriguing (to me and to many others) than it is. >Well, it seems you think the active radars that were >used were not good enough. Hummmm. Meaningless. >Yes, witness reports are pretty useless compartively. But why >throw them out altogether? Fantastic nonsense! Whoever remotely implied such a thing? You're losing touch with reality my friend. >>You want to "change the world": Have photographs of >>funny lights "changed the world"? According to your >>definition, no. What then >>is the point of your optical tracking stations? What >>difference does it make to have more images of funny >>lights? Think carefully about your answer . . . >I personally do not want to change the world. However, when on >considers the expediture of investor resources, one wishes to >get the maximum benefit. Images of "funny lights" (nice >derogatory term...where did _that_ come from?) have not really >"changed the world" unless in a very minimal incremental way, >culturally. Radar UFOs certainly have not changed the world. >Oddly, combined radar and optical UFO sightings have not >changed the world. The point is why are we even bothering if >the research makes no difference? The literature is full of meaningless snapshots of "funny lights" as you well know. The term is appropriate. They generally prove nothing and contain minimal information. They don't add up to a strong case that further optical surveillance will bear fruit. Why are you bothering to advocate optical tracking if research will make no difference? And don't say that optical tracking is new technology whereas radar is old hat and has been proved useless. First it hasn't (some atrocious statistical fallacies have inflated this idea in your mind), and second _multistatic_passive_radar_ is different technology, with the potential to produce radar evidence of a different order from that available occasionally to us in the past, as I've tried in vain to indicate. >If we get another radar/optical >UFO case or 100 of them, how does this affect the world? Sure >we can do scientific research for research/science's sake, but as >an engineer I prefer tangible benefits. You mean like Menzel, "nothing short of a tangible relic"? Perhaps you mean that more abstractly, in the sense of reliable data, but if so scientific research is the only route to such tangible benefits. Again, as to how passive radar studies might "affect the world", I already answered all this but you've snipped the passage where I described why it is a radar advance equivalent to the optical advance that you hope for from your tracking stations: "the ... difference between getting occasional operator reports from some active radar, and a computer cross- correlated datastream from a passive radar array. The advantages of data harvested tyhrough a networked passive radar array, compared with relying on picking up sporadic incidents occurring within range of existing monostatic radars and which happen to get reported to us, are enormous. . . . the analogy should be obvious: surveillance with a passive multistatic radar array is to sporadic monostatic radar reports as a computer-controlled optical tracking network is to sporadic monoscopic photo images." >For my optical tracking station (and I say "my" because I can >only speak for myself), I do not need investors and am not doing >it for fame or money or science or prestige or a SciFi channel >show. Its personal. I'm delighted that you're going to have one and eagerly await results. If they're positive and you do prove the presence of anomalously moving lights then they will greatly accelerate the development of passive radar surveillance to help find out what they are. >But when you need investors, you cannot be personal. >>>UFOs are STILL an unaccepted, fringe thing, even with >>>the few decent optical/radar cases, so apparently having >>>this kind of data makes NO difference. >>I refuse to rehearse every damn detail yet again. Read up. >Okay, so passive radar _is_ the panacea. So much better than >active radar. Just throw out those old radar/optical cases, >because they really aren't worth anything. More complete fantasy! You can't possibly imagine that I ever advocated either of those two positions for an instant. >>>Just because something is "open-source" does not give it a free >>>rein for anyone to do. Chemical formulae for explosives can be >>>had from an encyclopedia, but does the ATF want you to make it >>>by the ton? >>Tell me what part of a Celldar passive radar system falls foul >>of federal statutes in your country? Is it the phones? The >>yagi aerials? The desktop PC? >If its range is 10 miles, probably no regulations are violated. >But then, I am no expert on the various US security laws. We'll >wait and see what happens. Huh??? This discussion is now at an end. You are apparently incapable of understanding what passive radar is, so continued discussion of its relative performance merits etc are sadly but obviously pointless. >On a personal level, can you tell me why you think it is >important to do UFO field research? Because from evidence that I have read and studied hard over many years, and also from one (low defeinition) personal sighting experience, I am taken to the brink of believing that there is something remarkable of a physical nature out there (there are other complex levels to the UFO issue I know, which take me to a similar place but appear harder to test objectively), but I still can't hand on heart say that I am absolutely sure of it. I'm very frustrated and find it hard, but worthwhile, to attempt to maintain a neutral position. I'd like to be able to get off the damn fence. It would frankly be as much of a relief (I think) to be finally persuaded deep down that there is nothing as that there is something. I envy those
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Five Alien Abduction Tales Cartoons Noir? From: Steven Miles Lewis <elfis.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 08:28:44 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:03:19 -0500 Subject: Five Alien Abduction Tales Cartoons Noir? This is an older movie that I only saw just recently. Similar in tone to some of the Spike And Mike Twisted Animation shorts, this collection of cartoons collects among other things, stories of abductees told in their own words and animated from drawings they've made. Included among the abduction narrators is Linda Napolitano (aka Cortile) telling some of her story (minus the stalking security guys and supposed UN figurehead). This was of course my personal favorite among the cartoons featured and I thought the animation was particularly interesting given the subject matter. I was surprised by this film mostly because I'd never even heard it existed but also because I was unaware of Linda's story finding an audience beyond Budd's books and lectures. I saw her at the Albuquerque, New Mexico MUFON conference in 1992 but thought she pretty much only spoke at events with Budd. Hopkins is in this short tangentially but not much. Anyone else seen this? I'd be curious to know what our list artists think of the animation... Greg Boone, have you seen this? SMiles Online quotes below... ""Abductees," five true tales of alien abduction told using a wide range of animated techniques" "Paul Vester cuts between grainy live action and various animated styles to illustrate "interviews, hypnotic regression tapes, and original drawings" by supposed alien abduction victims. The array of animated visuals remains less than the sum of its parts, and the viewer is left with the feeling that Vester has exploited his unimpressive subjects." "Abductees - Paul Vester, USA? Date? All the films on this disc are odd, but this one clearly has a plan, if not a plot. Several alien abduction testimonials (heard in authentic- sounding tape recordings) are illustrated with animations that appear to mimic the scribbled drawings provided by the abductees themselves. This provides an interesting dimension to the phenomenon that is the flying saucer cult, because the abductees's visions reflect more of their own psychological
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 An Example Of Rick Doty's Slight Of Hand From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 06:51:57 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:05:15 -0500 Subject: An Example Of Rick Doty's Slight Of Hand An example of Rick Doty's slight of hand: ----- From: Paul McGovern To: RICK DOTY ; Capt Bob Collins, Ret, USAF ; Victor Martinez Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 18:08 Subject: Re: "AnonymousI" reveals more EYE-OPENING details on the human/ET program You should know all this Rick Doty. I know you were briefed back in 1983. You want me to prove it? Your ignorance is sickening to me. Why do you play this part? You want people to think you are the uninformed but I know different. You should be supporting our efforts in getting this stuff released. That is, if you are the real Richard Doty. I had an experience with Rick Doty and Collins after the Feb 27th show on coast to coast. I was sure it was Rick and he said so after, but Collins forwared me a message with Rick saying something like "It happened again like last time, I tried to call in and set the record straight but couldnt' get through". -----
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics - From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:14:16 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:06:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics - >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:16:51 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >Also, on two occasions in 1950 U.S. military >aircraft intentionally dropped nuclear bombs and dentonated then >in the air over Canada. In both of these examples, the Ministers >of National Defense at the time were not aware or fully briefed >of these incidents.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:15:54 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:07:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Boone >From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 13:31:21 +0000 >Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:33:22 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >><snip> >>I'm for treating _psychiatrists_ for delusions, psychiatrists >>who delude themselves into thinking they have a mandate to be >>'thought police', instead of their legitimate purpose of helping >>people with such serious mental problems that they literally >>can't look after themselves. ><snip> >Hello Eleanor and All, >I've heard three prominent psychiatrists, in in-depth >interviews, confess they'd been attracted to psychiatry by the >thought of "power over the mind". >And, when you get down to it, that's just another facet of the >unbalanced nature of all those who need power over others. >If someone invented a machine that truthfully analyzed a >person's mental stability - it would be suppressed by order of >"authority", especially by psychiatrists. >Guess why? Right on there Ray D! We've all been taken for saps by this mind control nonsense of psychiatry. That's what it is basically, governmental sponsored mind control. I am going to scan through the DSM again to see if there are any mental illnesses that cover UFO abduction stories. Just recently I heard from a veteran cop here in Hollywood that psychiatrists the world over are gonna get a mudhole stomped in them within the next year or two. Seems family centers, military, public servants got the run around from psychiatrists that really raised folks' ire. I didn't know about it til last night. I don't know what the psychiatrists did, but buddy, are they sure in for it now! I still say the key to this entire UFO mystery will be found in the dark catacombs of psychiatric institutions. They got the best data and probably used it to strongarm the military, politicians, and press. I remember clearly as a kid growing up near huge psych facilities, that the fastest way to disappear into a rubber room was to mention UFOs. It was literally a daily terror. You could joke about them or mention a movie or comic book, but inquire about them? If you didn't have strong family ties with lots of shootin' irons you ran a good risk of being turned into a zombie at that lobotomy table for sure. We put the pressure on the psychiatric machine, and you'll get the goods on UFOs. Believe me, it's gonna happen far sooner than we think ;)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:28:17 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:08:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Boone >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:33:22 -0500 >Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 12:58:17 +0000 (GMT) >>Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? ><snip> >>Tell me about it Greg. >>Enforced UK mental hospital stays. Bunged up with >>anti-psychotics and anti depressants since 1970 and I am still >>alive despite all recommendations to die from the abduction >>experiences and side effects from these medications. >>Anyone for some treatment for Delusions? >I'm for treating _psychiatrists_ for delusions, psychiatrists >who delude themselves into thinking they have a mandate to be >'thought police', instead of their legitimate purpose of helping >people with such serious mental problems that they literally >can't look after themselves. >Eleanor White A-Men Ms. White! I know I can always count on you to tell it like it is! I hope one day you get to speak before Congress and give them 'what fer!'. I come from a long line of family where the women are famous for speaking their piece and kickin' butt til their kneecaps wear out. I draw on that strength a lot and believe you me I can cuss out a double jawed sailor on a Saturday night! Which is what I aim to do from now on when discussing UFOs. Why? Because people respect 'anger'. Howard Stern, Rush Limbaugh, and the rest of the talk show elite mirror the sentiments of the public and getting angry or 'mad as hell' gets attention. Fortunately I don't think we'll be tolerating Mr. Limbaugh's nonsense much longer. Anyway, I expect any day now a literal army of moms and dads to literally go postal on psychiatry worldwide. That's one of the reasons for the France Riots. Don't believe the press about muslim radicals etc. I have people there in France and they told me a lot of the fighting is over social program enforcements that don't do jack. Especially psychiatric treatment that's forced on the poor and on moms with kids. Not to mention the senior citizens who have been getting leaned on. I didn't know the hierarchy there got a kickback for every citizen they got on medication. Same here in the U.S. I've read. I'll betcha' the final battle over the UFO mysteries will be found in the dark recesses of psychiatry/mind control.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:59:47 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:09:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Smith >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 05:44:48 EST >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >Well, American UFO researchers have done very little to study >UFO dynamics and points of origin in space of departing and >entering UFOs from deep space, since I am the first person in >known UFO history to calculate such trajectories and apparent >points of origin, going back to my posting here on UFO UpDates >on Aug. 11, 2001, and published in VSD magazine, concerning the >Roswell object's trajectory. I believe meteoriticist-astronomer >Lincoln LaPaz preceded me back in 1947 but he never published >such trajectory calculations, which were probably submitted to >the military as classified information. See: >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/aug/m11-007.shtml This is an interesting idea.... that you could follow the UFO trajectories to their point of origin. I would have thought that any civilization capable of travelling such interstellar distances (with incumbent huge energy usage) would have more than enough such energy for measley interplanetary travel. Also, based on UFO behavior that depicts a somewhat random walk kind of flight path, I would never have thought it would be easy to trace them back to their point of origin. Especially given the chance that they have an orbitting "mothership" which could be anywhere in orbit, but not stationary. The conjecture reminds me of the old "UFO" TV show where the UFOs always came from the same direction in interplanetary space (always past the Moon too!). Another problem is that does this presuppose a straightline trajectory rather than ballistic or orbital trajectory? A straight line trajectory implies vast availability of energy, but if this is the case, random directional changes are possible. If the UFO must perform "orbital" or ballistic trajectories, then UFO movement "directions" are harder to translate into point of origin data. Also, if the UFO changed directions prior to final approach (an hour before sighting or 1 minute before), then any correlation is not related to point of origin, but rather a fixed "approach/guidance" solution (e.g. :"Computer, take us in on standard approach") Assuming that some/most UFOs have a certain apparent "target" for departure or origin, do you think its due to a nominal flight solution or do you really think this shows the direction of their "base"? >Here are some more deep space points but for the first time we >have some data not on entry points or radiants but _departure_ >target points in deep space of UFOs apparently leaving earth's >atmosphere at escape velocity. These are some of the best multi- >witness visual UFO cases in history (not all of them are best >cases), some of which I've previously posted on. The times given >are at the _end_ of the sightings when the UFOs disappeared into >space. I appreciate you bringing up these cases because some seem very important to me based on their quality. The real problem I have is given the excellence of these cases, why has the scientific community not accepted the UFO phenomena as worthy of pursuing? Is it because the cases cannot be easily repeatable? Or do they dismiss the cases as too "old" and of uncertain pedigree? If these cases are not enough to "prove" that UFOs are real (and likely ET related), then exactly what _is_ needed in terms of future field research? And it occurs to me again that given the current ability to detect meteors using some type of radar, that there _must_ be _some_ anomalous signals in there of UFOs heading in or outbound. How can we get access to and use this data? >snipped some cases< >Jan. 2, 1954. Toms River, Marlton, Woodbury, and Surf City >(39degs40mins N, 74degs10mins W), New Jersey. 12:05 a.m. Hynek >used triangulation data from dozens of witnesses to calculate a >departure velocity of about 90,000 mph (thanks to Mary Castner >of CUFOS for digging out these files otherwise no one would know >a thing about it, Hynek never published it). >Projected target radiant at ascent angle of about 5degs at about >azimuth 225degs is at 22 hrs Right Ascension -30degs >Declination. I am not sure about this case. Are you saying the witnesses had adequate time measurements and observation instruments to gather the triangulation data, or did Hynek deduce this information based on standard witness observations? >Oct. 7, 1958. Alexandria, Virginia (at 38degs47.9minsN, 77degs >2.6mins W). 6:03 p.m. (EDT). This is the multiple-witness >triangulation daylight sighting of a Saturn-shaped metallic >object about 500 feet in diameter spotted by the Defense Dept's >top R&D official, the Special Asst for Research & Engineering to >the Asst Secretary of Defense. It was independently sighted by >an airline pilot, thus providing a triangulation at the optimum >right angles to the hovering UFO, which took off at high speed >disappearing by distance by accelerating at some 80 g's to about >72,000 mph peak terminal velocity at about 200 miles altitude.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Follow Up To May 2005 Puerto Rican Triangular UFO From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 11:00:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:12:58 -0500 Subject: Follow Up To May 2005 Puerto Rican Triangular UFO INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology November 9, 2005 ================================================================ Follow Up: Puerto Rico's Mysterious Triangular UFO Incident by Jose A. Martinez Echevarria and Willie Durand Urbina Project Argus- Puerto Rican Experimental Research Group, Inc. The Puerto Rican Experimental Research Group, Inc. has continued its investigations into this case, which has resulted in a variety of contrasting opinions within the Puerto Rican UFO community and abroad. As a group committed to its research, we want to be very cautions with what we turn over to the media without having first verified the sources and the persons we have interviewed. We ascertain that the data is analyzed and evaluated in a responsible matter. Unscrupulous individuals having no connection to this investigation have taken it upon themselves to become agents of disinformation in the media. Since they have not had the [entire] case in their possession, we have delayed greatly in publishing it since it came into our hands in May 2005, in order to carry out proper field research. Certain details have emerged suggesting the [involvement of] many individuals and researchers unconnected to this case. As soon as [PRRG Director] advised me of the ca se a month later (giving the reader an idea of the manner in which the case was kept under wraps), he told me not to issue any reports pending his go-ahead, and I agreed to do this until the time he told me that his telephone had been tapped by an unknown agency, something that the original witness was also experiencing. Immediately, Mr. Durand gave me the green light to report the all available information before it was too late and the only evidence in our possession eliminated or seized. The case number of the [unauthorized wiretap] is ASO2, as received by Mr. Alturo of the Puerto Rico Telephone Company. He gave Mr. Durand a number to report this wiretap (1-888-241-0734) and the confirmation number for the complaint was 002. Five days later, Mr. Durand received a call of unknown provenance, as his Caller ID box was unable to register that the phone was blocked. The agency tapping the phone was never identified. There is a person in the media inserting words ("An Independence Day type craft") where they were not present in the original report. Thus it can be seen how disinformation arises. The Second Interview Eyewitness's Brother: My brother was on the "Milla de Oro" about to take the expressway to San Juan. He was driving with three other guys as passengers. Beside him [on the road] was a green Mitsubishi and behind him was a red care. All of the cars around him stopped. All of them! The cars stopped, the drivers got out of their vehicles to look [at the object]. He wanted to get closer to the object to see it better and tried to follow it, matching its speed. The object then increased speed until the car was trying to follow it at 95 MPH. The object eventually vanished at high speed. Willie Durand: What was the object like? Eyewitness's Brother: It was a brilliant object, very luminous and triangle-shaped. Willie: Do you know if your brother felt some warmth on his skin? Eyewitness's Brother: No, only noise, like the buzzing of bees..ZZZZZ...could be heard. Willie: The object then followed a course toward the airport? Eyewitness's Brother: Yes, it took the "Milla de Oro" as if toward San Juan, and the airport is very close to San Juan. Wilfredo was there, who managed to see it much more closely. Especially if you're in the airport, you can see it better, as its a clear zone that allows for better visibility. [Omitted: information has been suppressed in this part of the interview] Eyewitness's Brother: There are more witnesses who work as security guards. They saw the object much nearer. The security guards from this other location say that the object flew over them. [Omitted: information has been suppressed in this part of the interview] Willie: There's a magnetic field in that area [Omitted]. There's considerable geomagnetic activity at that location. Eyewitness's Brother: Oh, really? How do you know that, Willie? Willie: Yes, we have all of the equipment and had already made measurements in that particular area. We conducted tests and its quite large, covering all the way to the Hiram Bithorn stadium. [The area] is rich in sightings of this type. Eyewitness's Brother: Look, right now I'm in Orocovis at a place where all of the local residents tell me that they've seen military aircraft that fly to a certain point of a river. I've been to that river, and they fly circles over the area as though looking for something. After a while they go away, then two more return and continue circling before leaving. Willie: How's your brother doing? What are his impressions after this sighting? Eyewitness's Brother: Well, he tells me that a friend of his who works in a carpentry shop keeps saying: "Hell, you really saw that?" But he says that "he's rather frightened by the whole thing". Willie: Your brother hasn't brought up his experiences again? Eyewitness's Brother: Well yes, he's spoken with some of his friends and with me, as well as some fellows my brother was with when they saw the triangular craft and have discussed the subject at length at work. Willie: Wilfredo tells me that the object is larger than two ball parks. What can you tell me about what your brother saw that morning? Eyewitness's Brother: Well yes, it was very large, my brother says. A tremendous object. Willie: You told me that there was a girl who'd also seen this triangular object. I can't recall if it was you or Wilfredo who told me. Eyewitness's Brother: Yes, I told you. She works in Campo Rico as a manager for a food store, but she's completely adamant about not talking. She doesn't want to come out on TV or the radio. She's completely negative about discussing the subject. I'll give you her number and see if maybe you get the information or an interview out of her. Willie: All we want is the information. We won't use her name or personal data. Eyewitness's Brother: Besides, she saw the triangular object from Paseo de la Princesa (Ed. - a promenade in old San Juan, some 7 miles from the airport). Wille: Thanks for the information you've given me. This sheds a bit more light on this strange situation. We're hoping that more eyewitnesses come forward. I hope to see you soon. We'll be holding a meeting and you're invited. Noteworthy Elements Observed: Parameters for Research 1. Two days prior to the sighting, the eyewitness had a conversation with a female co-worker who confided to him that she had been abducted several times by these vehicles. 2. Analyze the encounter and how the conversation came about. 3. Two days following the conversation, the sighting occurs. 4. Research into the surroundings of this witness's case is pending. 5. 14 days later, he was hospitalized in intensive care for a strange illness. 6. His car was later stolen from his house; the vehicle's paint had radioactive evidence. 7. He purchased another car and had an accident at the same place that the sighting occurred, breaking both legs. 8. Telephone lines belonging to Willie Durand, members of the group, and eyewitnesses, are tapped. 9. Willie Duarnd is expecting phone calls to see how many witnesses actually saw this craft. 10. Hold in-depth conversations with airport staff. 11. Agents with the Tactical Squad of the Puerto Rican Police report to Willie Durand's home in Floral Park (San Juan, P.R.) asking to see him. He identified himself, asking what they wanted, what were the charges, etc. The agent courteously tells him that nothing is amiss, but inquires as to the ownership of the vehicle parked outside, mentioning the evening that Willie visited the place where Wilfredo's UFO sighting took place. Willie Durand writes the following: "These events have been repetitive and I am trying to tie up the loose ends. I am researcher in the best possible meaning of the word, being of sound mind and with a sense of responsibility when it comes to writing and describing the arc of these events. A map of the trajectory of this artifact through the skies of the Puerto Rican capital is being prepared. Expect it to be released soon. This interesting case remains open and there is further research to be done and more interviews to be conducted.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 13:11:28 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:15:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Ledger >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:33:22 -0500 >Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 12:58:17 +0000 (GMT) >>Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? ><snip> >>Tell me about it Greg. >>Enforced UK mental hospital stays. Bunged up with anti- >>psychotics and anti depressants since 1970 and I am still alive >>despite all recommendations to die from the abduction >>experiences and side effects from these medications. >>Anyone for some treatment for Delusions? >I'm for treating _psychiatrists_ for delusions, psychiatrists >who delude themselves into thinking they have a mandate to be >'thought police', instead of their legitimate purpose of helping >people with such serious mental problems that they literally >can't look after themselves. Both Dave Jacobs and myself presented papers at a conference in Halifax, NS. During one conversation I asked him if any of the abductees he interviewed were psychiatrists or psychologists. He answered, "Quite a few". It appears "They" are equal opportunity abductors.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? - Velez From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 12:40:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:42:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? - Velez >From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:04:28 -0500 >Subject: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? >Has anyone seen an explanation for the slowing of Saturn's >rotation as measured by Cassini-Huygens? Please see: >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4640641.stm Hi Pavel, What astronomers and physicists know about the workings of the cosmos can be stored in a thimble. With room to spare! We are learning something new about our cosmic neighborhood everyday. For instance... it was discovered recently that the speed of rotation of the sun actually increases ever so slightly, nothing on the order of 'minutes', during sunspot maximum. Granted that the difference in the rotational speed of Saturn between the 70's and now is startling. However, given how very little we know, it 'could be' that planetary forces are at work that we currently know little or nothing about. Also, different 'belts/zones' on Jupiter are known to rotate at different speeds, I'm sure the same is true on Saturn or any of the other gas giants. If, as the experts suspect, the discrepancy in rotational velocity proves to be due to differences in zonal rotational speeds on the planets surface, the whole 'mystery' component disappears in an instant. It's amazing what shedding a little light on a subject will do for our understanding of it. I wish someone would do that with UFO occupant abductions.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Secrecy News -- 11/09/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 12:48:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:44:16 -0500 Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/09/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 105 November 9, 2005 ** LEAK INQUIRY SOUGHT IN SECRET PRISON STORY ** NO LEAK INQUIRY SOUGHT IN INTEL BUDGET DISCLOSURE ** CIA RESISTS RELEASE OF JFK ASSASSINATION RECORDS ** DOD DIRECTIVE ON INTELLIGENCE INTERROGATION ** NAVY DIRECTIVE ON WHISTLEBLOWER PROTECTION ** A BRIEF HISTORY OF US COMMUNICATIONS INTELLIGENCE LEAK INQUIRY SOUGHT IN SECRET PRISON STORY Republican leaders of Congress yesterday called upon the congressional intelligence committees to conduct a joint inquiry into the disclosure that the CIA is detaining and interrogating prisoners at secret locations abroad, as reported November 2 by Dana Priest of the Washington Post. "As you know, if accurate, such an egregious disclosure could have long-term and far-reaching damaging and dangerous consequences, and will imperil our efforts to protect the American people and our homeland from terrorist attacks," wrote Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist and Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert. "The leaking of classified information by employees of the United States government appears to have increased in recent years, establishing a dangerous trend that, if not addressed swiftly and firmly, likely will worsen," they wrote. See their November 4 letter (signed November 8) here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/11/leaklet.pdf NO LEAK INQUIRY SOUGHT IN INTEL BUDGET DISCLOSURE As far as could be determined, no official inquiry has been initiated into the public disclosure of the total size of the classified U.S. intelligence budget by a senior intelligence official, first reported by U.S. News and World Report this week. No complaints have been filed, no polygraph exams will be administered, no one will be fired. Far from causing "serious damage to the national security," which is the standard for Secret-level classification, this leak just doesn't matter -- which is another way of saying that this information should not be classified. The secrecy of the total intelligence budget figure is widely viewed as a charade that has nothing to do with real national security concerns. As such, it is the foremost example of a large but unquantified volume of needlessly classified information that is wrongly withheld from the public. See "Official Reveals Budget for U.S. Intelligence" by Scott Shane, New York Times, November 8: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/08/politics/08budget.html See also "Intelligence Budget is $44 Billion" by Stephen Losey, Federal Times, November 8: http://federaltimes.com/index2.php?S=1227613 CIA RESISTS RELEASE OF JFK ASSASSINATION RECORDS More than 40 years after the JFK assassination, the Central Intelligence Agency is refusing to release certain assassination-related records that it holds. "We are asking for discovery of JFK assassination records related to the late George Joannides, chief of the Psychological Warfare Branch of the CIA's Miami Station in 1963," said Jefferson Morley, a researcher and Washington Post writer who is pursuing the CIA records. "The CIA has acknowledged that it has an unspecified number of documents about Joannides' activities in the summer and fall of 1963 but says it will not release any of them for reasons of 'national security'," he explained. A conference on the matter will be held at DC District Court next Wednesday. The case has garnered significant outside support. "As published authors of divergent views on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, we say the agency's position is spurious and untenable," wrote some two dozen assassination specialists in a joint letter on the Morley case. ("It's probably the first time ever that George Lardner and Oliver Stone agreed on a JFK question," Morley told Secrecy News.) The CIA refusal "defies the will of Congress. It obscures the public record on a subject of enduring national interest. It encourages conspiracy mongering. And it undermines public confidence in the intelligence community at a time when collective security requires the opposite." See "Blocked," New York Review of Books, August 11, 2005: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18193 DOD DIRECTIVE ON INTELLIGENCE INTERROGATION "All captured or detained personnel shall be treated humanely, and all intelligence interrogations, debriefings, or tactical questioning to gain intelligence from captured or detained personnel shall be conducted humanely, in accordance with applicable law and policy." So states a new Department of Defense Directive issued last week. The directive applies to all DoD personnel and contractors, but not to other agencies such as the CIA. It was first reported by the New York Times. See "DoD Intelligence Interrogations, Detainee Debriefings, and Tactical Questioning," DoD Directive 3115.09, 3 November 2005: http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/d3115_09.pdf NAVY DIRECTIVE ON WHISTLEBLOWER PROTECTION "No person may take, or threaten to take, an unfavorable personnel action (including a referral for mental health evaluation), or withhold, or threaten to withhold, a favorable personnel action in reprisal against any member of the Armed Forces for making or preparing to make a protected communication, including an allegation of sexual harassment or unlawful discrimination, to one authorized to receive the communication." This is U.S. Navy policy as defined in a new Instruction from the Secretary of the Navy. See "Military Whistleblower Reprisal Protection," SecNavInst 5370.7C, 14 October 2005: http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/navy/secnavinst/5370_7c.pdf A BRIEF HISTORY OF US COMMUNICATIONS INTELLIGENCE The National Security Agency has reviewed and declassified most -- but not all -- of a 1952 history of communications intelligence. "Prior to 1917 United States activity in the field of Communications Intelligence was sporadic, and there is little record of it," begins the study, which was originally classified TOP SECRET SUEDE. A newly declassified version was released by NSA to FOIA requester Michael Ravnitzky on October 27. See "A Brief History of Communications Intelligence in the United States" by Capt. Laurance F. Safford, USN (Ret.), March 1952: http://www.fas.org/irp/nsa/safford.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Acceptance Of Or Belief In Aerial Phenomena From: Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:34:00 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:48:47 -0500 Subject: Acceptance Of Or Belief In Aerial Phenomena Listers. The subject of phenomena was addressed by author, Martin Ebon. Though the following quote, so far as I know, wasn't applied to aerial phenomena, perhaps it may encompass the subjects of these discussions on the UpDates List: "For there is likely to be just as much wishful thinking, prejudice, emotion, snap judgment, naivete, and intellectual dishonesty on the side of orthodoxy, of skepticism, and of conservatism, as on the side of hunger for and belief in the marvelous. The emotional motivation for irresponsible disbelief is, in fact, probably even stronger - especially in scientifically educated persons, whose pride of knowledge is at stake--than is other persons the motivation for irresponsible belief. In these matters, nothing is so rare as genuine objectivity and impartiality of judgment - judgment determined neither by will to believe nor by the will to disbelieve, but only by the will to get at the truth irrespective of whether it turns out to be comfortably familiar or uncomfortably novel, consoling or distressing, orthodox, or unorthodox." I enjoy the spirited discussions of the UpDates List, though certain statements much try the patience of others surely as much as my own in light of the above, Martin Ebon, quote. Though I have no investigatory experience, I have garnered much from the experience and knowledge of those who do, who also participate in the UpDates List discussions. With a nod to Jerry Clark, thanks to you all.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 13:52:48 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:52:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Fleming >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 14:36:13 -0600 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <snip> >If there is a big UFO cover-up (how I feel about that depends >generally upon what the phase of the moon is at the moment, or >how many cups of coffee I happen to have consumed), I doubt very >much that Klass knew of it. That said, yes, he could well have >been a useful idiot in a cover-up's service. His Pentagon >contacts could have pumped him for information without betraying >their true purpose. Klass could honestly have thought that he >was "merely" reporting on prying, potentially disloyal >ufologists who might accidentally (or purposely) expose some >classifed aviation-technology project while hunting, say, for >crashed saucers. Whether or not there was or is a big conspiracy, It's my impression that Klass has gotten extraordinarily deferential treatment from the news media. The New York Times virtually nominated him for sainthood in their obit. They even referred glowingly to his (wrong) explanation of the 1987 JAL incident: "His answers could be as specific as pointing to the unusual brightness of Mars and Jupiter in 1987 to explain a Japanese pilot's report of a flying saucer, and as general as his observation that people taken by aliens have never reported returning with a souvenir." It turned out that Klass was the one doing the misidentifying; Mars and Jupiter were in the wrong part of the sky to be the objects that the flight crew reported. Klass will, of course go down in history as the man who invented the rule that if aliens exist, then they ought to be giving out free souvenirs. ("I was abducted and all I got was this lousy tee shirt"). You've got to pay to get Klass' obit from the NYT website, but someone copied it to a Space.Com message board at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:08:48 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:54:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? - Shough >From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:04:28 -0500 >Subject: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? >Has anyone seen an explanation for the slowing of Saturn's >rotation as measured by Cassini-Huygens? Please see: >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4640641.stm Hi Pavel Apparently the rotation measurements are inferred from mapping the motion of radio emission hotspots, and as this motion is governed by the planet's magnetic field it could be that what is changing is the relationship between ther magnetic field and the planetary interior. See the analysis team press release July 2004 at http://www.uiowa.edu/~ournews/2004/june/062804saturn-rotation.html "Although Saturn's radio rotation period has clearly shifted by a substantial amount over the 24 years since the Voyager measurements [said Don Gurnett, head of the Iowa U team], I don't think any of us could conceive of any process that would cause the rotation of the entire planet to actually slow down. So it appears that there is some kind of slippage between the deep interior of the planet and the magnetic field, which controls the charged particles responsible for the radio emission." He suggests that the solution may be tied to the fact that Saturn's rotational axis is nearly identical to its magnetic axis, differing by an angle of only one degree. Jupiter, which has its magnetic axis tilted by a more substantial 10 degrees relative to its rotational axis shows no comparable irregularities in its radio rotation period. Writing in the May 1985 issue of "Geophysical Research Letters," Alex J. Dessler, a senior research scientist at the Lunar and Planetary Laboratory, University of Arizona, argued that the magnetic fields of gaseous giant planets, such as Saturn and Jupiter, are more like that of the sun than of the Earth. The sun's magnetic field does not rotate as a solid body. Instead, its rotation period varies with latitude. Commenting on the work of Gurnett and his team, Dessler said, "This finding is very significant because it demonstrates that the idea of a rigidly rotating magnetic field is wrong. Saturn's magnetic field has more in common with the sun than the Earth. The measurement can be interpreted as showing that the part of Saturn's magnetic field that controls the radio emissions has moved to a higher latitude during the last two decades." "I think we will be able to unravel the puzzle, but it's going to take some time. With Cassini in orbit around Saturn for four years or more, we will be in an excellent position to monitor long-term variations in the radio period, as well as investigate the rotational period using other techniques," Gurnett says. The radio sounds of Saturn's rotation - resembling a heartbeat - and other sounds of space can be heard by visiting Gurnett's Web site at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Filer's Files #46 - 2005 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 15:22:45 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 18:05:48 -0500 Subject: Filer's Files #46 - 2005 Filer's Files #46 - 2005 George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International November 8, 2005, Web www.georgefiler.com NASA Astronauts saw UFOs This week's files cover: Mars has methane that may be biogenic, Earth passe through space debris, NASA Astronauts saw UFOs. In addition, witnesses saw UFOs over Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, New York, Pennsylvania, Texas, and Virginia. Many witnesses saw UFOs in Argentina, Australia, Canada, the Caribbean Sea, Mexico, and the United Kingdom. The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world. These Files assume that extraterrestrial intelligent life not only exists, but my hypothesis is that of the over one hundred UFOs reported each week, many represent alien craft. The United States Air Force Project conducted a worldwide investigation of UFOs from 1947 until December 1969, when it disbanded its investigative team. We are continuing the investigation. Mars Methane May Be Biogenic Life This Hubble image is the sharpest view of Mars ever taken from Earth - the Martian north pole is at the top, near the centre of the bright polar cap (Image: JPL) New observations of the Martian atmosphere show no trace of sulphurous fumes and rules out active volcanoes as the source of the Red Planet's mysterious methane, but fails to resolve the question of where the methane comes from. Methane breaks down when exposed to sunlight, so its discovery in the Martian atmosphere two years ago meant that something on the planet was continually producing more of the gas. Most astronomers suspected its presence was the result of a geological process, while a few suggested the methane was the signature of past or present life. To try to narrow the range of possibilities, Vladimir Krasnopolsky, who studies planetary atmospheres at the Catholic University of America in Washington, turned a powerful infrared spectrometer towards Mars. He targeted sulphur dioxide - the volcanic gas that should be easiest to spot. Earth's volcanoes release methane, but they generate thousands of times more sulphur dioxide, which has an even shorter atmospheric lifetime than methane - just two years. So finding sulphur dioxide would mean volcanic vents on Mars were actively releasing the gas, and presumably methane as well. However, high-resolution measurements revealed no trace of Martian sulphur dioxide. From that, Krasnopolsky calculated that Mars' atmosphere could contain no more than one part per billion of the gas. This in turn means that Martian volcanoes can be releasing no more than one seven-hundredth as much sulphur dioxide as terrestrial volcanoes - and far too little methane to sustain the levels recorded in the Martian atmosphere. I can't rule out a geological source of methane" because there are many conceivable mechanisms, Krasnopolsky told New Scientist, but =E2=80=9Dthis makes biological methane more plausible". "You want to resort to biogenic sources as the last possible alternative," Lyons told New Scientist, noting that methane fluxes on Mars are six to seven orders of magnitude smaller than on the Earth, which possesses an abundance of organic-origin methane. Thanks to Skywatch International http://www.skywatch- international.org/ Earth passes through space debris The bright light behind the clouds is a fireball photographed Nov. 2, 2005, by Mark Vorhusen of Germany. Thanks to NASA. The Earth is passing through the space debris known as the Taurids meteor shower. On November 2nd in the Netherlands, "The sky lit up very bright," reports Koen Miskotte. "In the corner of my eye I saw a fireball about as bright as a crescent moon." "People are probably seeing the Taurid meteor shower," says meteor expert David Asher of the Armagh Observatory in Northern Ireland. Every year in late October and early November, he explains, Earth passes through a river of space dust associated with Comet Encke. Tiny grains hit our atmosphere at 65,000 mph. At that speed, even a tiny smidgen of dust makes a vivid streak of light - a meteor - when it disintegrates. Because these meteors shoot out of the constellation Taurus, they're called Taurids. Hidden within the dust meteors could be larger ones that cause damage to Earth and could be mistaken for UFOs. NASA Astronauts Saw UFOs In 1962 NASA was formed in 1958 and from the start a number of its astronauts and test pilots testified to sighting UFOs or craft of undetermined origin. Initially, Joseph Walker was the first to announce a sighting - he told the National Conference on the Peaceful Uses of Space Research in 1962 that he had an aerial encounter with two disc- shaped objects the previous month. He had actually filmed the encounter. In April 1962, NASA pilot, Joseph Walker, filmed five cylindrical and disc-shaped objects from his X-15 aircraft. Another test pilot, reported an incident involving a formation of UFOs while flying at 314,000 feet. NASA refused to reveal any evidence that might substantiate the pilots' claims - photographs or films were never released.. Many anomalous objects captured are caught on video during Shuttle Missions: See: http://www.thewhyfiles.net/shuttle.htm (Includes a number of audio/video files) Peace, Geoff Richardson www.thewhyfiles.net Arizona Sighting of an Unknown YUMA - Saturday night October 29, 2005, around 10:45 PM, we were driving north on Highway 95 headed to Fortuna Road which is 14 miles from Yuma Proving Grounds. My husband and I saw some lights over the field near the road. There were four lights on one side, then a gap with four lights on the other that were connected to a wood post carrying electrical wires. As we got closer we could see it was just hovering there. Two more lights came on in the middle of it. Then it rolled off to the right and was flying very low. It was twenty feet off the ground. Then it rocked from side to side. Right wing down and then left wing down. I asked my husband, a USMC aircraft maintenance officer with a Bronze Star from Afghanistan, 18 years on the job and two conflicts deep, if I should call the police. He slowed down to 35 mph, it went up and turned around and shined the two middle lights brightly on us and the other car on the road which had a flat front tire and would not stop. He was probably also scared. It flew next to us at 35 mph, and my husband sped off at up to 85 mph and it was still next to us. The car with the flat started flashing high and low beam lights as if they did not want us to leave them behind. It followed us to our turn and then the craft turned around again and went back. My husband has worked on pretty much all the aircraft in the Corps. We heard no engine noise and it was not until I realized that planes do not fly next to you at 35 miles per hour that I got scared. YPG is a hot spot for sightings My husband enlightened me that there were no flashing lights like a plane or chopper. I went back the next day and there were two huge military trucks parked on the other side of the road that drove off as I was coming up. Thanks to Brian Vike www.hbccufo.com California - A Huge Sphere of Light ORANGE COUNTY - Ed Brooks writes, "I have had numerous sightings in the last four months on a weekly and sometimes daily basis.=E2=80=9D I took this photo in California not Las Vegas as reported last week. For accuracy I believe this is important. I was awakened again last night, November 3, 2005, at about 11:40 pm, to a loud explosion and ran out back and sure enough there was the orange orb. I have trouble sleeping and about 3:15 AM, on October 29, 2005 I had gotten out of bed and happened to see a huge glowing orange ball 750 feet high in my backyard. With my arm extended the object was the size of a tennis ball. It was extremely bright and staying solid and flying slowly east. I ran inside and awakened my friend Candice and when she saw it she could not even speak. It was still moving very slowly at about ten mph. I took about four pictures with different patterns from one picture to the next. I also took a close up per your suggestion. When I took the last picture something ejected from the object and two seconds later a bright flash lit up the sky followed by an explosion right after. It must have been pretty low because you could see smoke from the explosion. The explosion awakened my 11 year old son and he came outside to see. It began to fade out then back in again. It lasted for about 25 minutes. The flash and explosions are kind of scary. This time the sky was covered with low clouds and the orange orb rose upward this time to be engulfed by these clouds. There is no other sound but this time the neighbor's dogs were whining and scratching at their owner's door. Thanks to Ed Brooks OAKLAND - I had gone over to a friend's house for a light party with videos on October 29, 2005. The movie just started and I glanced out the window for a moment at 8 PM, just in time to see a ball of white light, too large to be a comet, go down in a falling pattern. It seemed fairly far-off, and I know I wasn't imagining it because I could see that when it went behind trees and buildings, it wasn't visible. Nobody else saw it, but when I mentioned that I saw something like a massive comet falling, a few people brought up a series of light sightings from just days before. I wonder if they have a connection. Has anyone else noticed, out of mere curiosity, that radio stations and speakers lately have been getting weird beeping noises? Not high pitched or low down, but an alto-tone? Almost like a Morse code. I'm not the only one who's heard it; whenever I'm in a car or listening to a music program and it comes on, I wait until someone else brings it up to see if I'm the only one hearing it, and I'm not. Probably no correlation, but I still would like to know what it is. Thanks to Brian Vike EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE - The Air Force's second Bell-Boeing CV- 22 Osprey, arrived at Edwards on October 27, 2005, two months earlier than the contract's due date. The first Air Force Osprey was delivered for electromagnetic testing to NAS Patuxent River, Md. on September 16, 2005. The third CV-22 is due in 2006, and the Air Force Operational Test and Evaluation Center will use these first three aircraft to conduct an Operational Utility Evaluation next summer. The CV-22 is the Special Operations Forces (SOF) variant of the tilt-rotor aircraft that has vertical take-off and landing ability like a helicopter, and provides operational flexibility from small landing zones then flies at high-speed (230 knots). The Air Force and U.S. Special Operations Command plan to procure 50 CV-22s to conduct day or night long-range infiltration, exfiltration and re-supply of special operations forces. Thanks to Air Force Office of Public Affairs Release #011105 Editor's Note: the ability of the Osprey to hover may confuse people with UFOs. Colorado metallic oval or cylinder STRASBURG - On a clear day two witnesses noticed an object shining in daylight sky at 6:20 PM, on October 2, 2005. The sun was about 40 degrees from the object and through binoculars the object was clearly reflecting the sun and was visible for 15 minutes. It then split into three objects, or two smaller sections left main object for a short distance, then, all three appeared to move directly away and disappear in three seconds. The other witness to this is an engineer at Rocky Mountain Arsenal and a total skeptic. After seeing this object he is not so sure! Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Florida - Slow Flying Black Triangle GAINESVILLE - I was getting in my car and movement overhead caught my eye on October 20, 2005, at 6:14 PM. I spotted a very slow moving and very low overhead craft that was absolutely enormous. At first when I recognized the dark triangular shape, I thought perhaps it was a stealth bomber, but realized it wasn't possible as it was so low, moving so slowly, and did not make a sound. It was silent on a perfectly clear night with the stars shining. It was an hour after sunset and the moon was rising. The object was barely visible but had very dim lights around its edges- roughly as bright as the dimmest stars, that distorted the background sky to conceal itself. It flew due east and I watched as it passed over the roof of the adjacent building. I followed the best I could but I had no luck and nearly got in an accident. Incidentally, I have a BS in psychology. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Kentucky Bell-Shaped Object HILLSBORO - The witness reports seeing a bell-shaped object at 7:30 PM, on October 29, 2005, while typing on the computer. During previous sightings the light has appeared to change shape and pulse in response to a large flashlight blinking white or red. It was higher in the sky and a little farther west than in previous sightings. A similar light was observed on the evening of October 18, and 26. This evening the light did not respond to the flashing lights and remained stationary for about 45 minutes. I thought it might be Mars, but it began to descend (two 2 thumb widths from the horizon) and "float" westward. It took about ten minutes for it to move west too far to be seen. The sky was clear and the temperature was about 40 degrees Fahrenheit. Thanks to Brian Vike www.hbccufo.com Editor's Note: All planets and stars appear to move 15 degrees per hour as the Earth spins. Michigan - Intersecting Lights and Oval WESTLAND - I saw three lines of lights in a intersecting formation slowly flying over my house at about the same level as a helicopter would fly on October 16, 2005, at 9:20 PM, but it wasn't a helicopter. I would know because I've lived next to Detroit metro for three years and I've seen many planes and helicopters but nothing like this! It was the size of a football field but there was nobody I could see, just lights. Also there was no sound. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com WIXOM - The witness spotted an oval-shaped object that was floating above several farm buildings on October 17, 2005, at 10 PM. It hovered slowly along the roof line of each shed, and was almost silent, except for a muted staccato noise, that sounded like clucking? Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Missouri - Strange Orange Light BRUMLEY - The witness reports, "My son 32 and I (56) both saw a strange light that would move near us, then move back out on October 27, 2005, at 3 AM. This went on for about six minutes. It was flying at mid sky to the west. We live in Miller County Missouri, far back in the woods. We have seen many things up here over the past few years, but this is the first I have reported to anyone. There was no sound, but it was not an aircraft or helicopter. Thanks to Brian Vike www.hbccufo.com New York City - Huge Black Triangle BRONX - I was working as an over night security guard for a beer distribution company on November 10, 2001. I noticed for more than over a month lights that seem to appear at random times after midnight over a building located in front of the facility. These lights resembled those of a brilliant roman candle They sparkled on a massive scale over the building in front of the facility. I observed this night after night from my security booth. I decided to take a closer look, when I approached the front entrance I saw that out of these sparkles appeared a huge black triangle. I was frightened by the size of this craft which hovered directly above me and was heading east at a very slow speed and most importantly very silent tempo. It was as wide as a six story building and as long as a twelve story building and was about nine stories up in the sky. I paced backwards as this craft was right above me and I was speechless. I thought I could possibly be an abductee. The craft was literally pitch black and the only light was a white signal light at the tip of its nose. Bush was in town on that weekend to address the victims of that disaster I truly believe that I am one out of a few in New York who pay attention to the signs in the sky. Thanks to Brian Vike www.hbccufo.com Pennsylvania - Circular Lights JONESTOWN - I was driving to work the night of October 19, 2005 and around 9:15 PM, a bright circular light appeared in the sky. Then one after another they just lit up in a row across the sky. Then they disappeared and I could see blinking lights from 6 to 10 aircraft flying all around like they were chasing each other. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com LANCASTER COUNTY - Mindy Gerber sent me this photo and e-mail from Robert Kaetzel. I took these pictures at a pretty high resolution. I have an Olympus E20N digital camera with zoom lens. The photos were taken on October 1, 2005 some time between 1:30 PM and 2:30 PM. I didn't see anything at the time. I was just taking some photos of the Amish working in the fields from a distance. We were on the Strasburg railroad between Route 741 and Route 30. I am not one to see things in my photos. Over in the right hand side of the photo near the ground is what appears to be a metal sphere. The image actually looks pretty good zooming in at about 400-600%. I didn't hear any noise. Feel free to use the photos in any way you want. Thanks to Robert Kaetzel and Mindy Gerber. Texas - Formation Sighting ARLINGTON - A man and woman called to report witnessing a peculiar yellow light in the northern sky, viewed from their location in the center of Arlington on October 16, 2005, at 10:30 PM. They reported that the flare seemed to simply accelerate straight away from them, moving to the north. Carswell AFB to the north of Arlington is open. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Virginia - Red and White Lights VIRGINIA BEACH - I was standing at the window at the front of my house talking on the phone to my sister on October 16, 2005, at 10:30 PM. I saw lights red and white blinking. The object was hard to see but a good size, it was very low as it was behind the trees in the near distance. I asked her to go outside to see if she could hear or see anything and she couldn't, I said it's right over near your house and you can't see or hear anything? No she couldn't, so it couldn't have been a helicopter and it hovered low to the ground for about a minute. My sister said she noticed the air kind of foggy by her house, at that time but nothing was seen or heard. It was a clear night so I don't know why it would be foggy? Anyway my husband and son also were looking out the window and they couldn't figure out what it was either, but my husband who always tries to make sense of any situation could not for this one, he knew it was a real object with lights. Then all of a sudden it moved off sideways and disappeared among the trees. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Washington DC Please take a minute to view this film short "A Close Encounter @ The US Capitol". It is a film created from actual event images taken in HD. This sample is by far, the best type and quality of any other samples currently on the market. I invested three years in studying these objects. The objects generated texture bitmaps unlike anything I have ever seen or encountered in any software on the current market. I also animated some of the films sequences to show by example, what I saw that night at the US Capitol. I will apologize in advance to avoid any possible confrontation due to psychological impairments caused by the graphic nature of this film sample. I ask that you have an open mind and accept the facts as they are presented. I must mention that the original image presentation is in Avid HD, and is too large to be sent over the web in its original form (HDDV). Thanks to WG Allen Argentina: Water Tanks Emptied "LA CABARA RANCH - CIUFOS-La Pampa (Raul Oscar Chaves) reports, "In the early morning hours of October 31, 2005, a 70,000 liters tank of water used to provide liquid to livestock was found to be missing. Miguel Garrone, who leases the "La Caba=C3=B1a" ranch, says that the tank was filled to the maximum on Saturday evening and was found completely empty in the early morning hours of Monday. There were no signs of breakage, leakage, nor signs of moisture in its perimeter that could provide an answer to the mysterious disappearance. The astonished livestock rancher indicated that this is not the first time tanks have been emptied. The ranch is located some 15 km south of Parera, La Pampa. On July 2, 2005, in a ranch belonging some 4 km from Quetrequ=C3=A9n another 70,000 liters of water vanished in a similar fashion. Mutilated animals were also found in this area in this region. [Editor's Note: One of the most startling aspects of the 2002 cattle mutilation wave in Argentina was the disappearance of tremendous amounts of water from the large cisterns known as "tanques australianos" (literally, Australian tanks. Entire swimming pools were drained. Psychic Silvia Browne, a guest on TV's Montel Williams Show said, a US swimming pool was drained "by UFOs".- SC] Translation (c) 2005. Scott Corrales, IHU. Ross writes, "These photos clearly show the similarities of the UFOs I've been filming here 5 years and still seeing daily. Most interesting is the streaming footage I took of a green glowing orb in the day., a good 10mins or more that's now been matched by another viewing my material to views as seen by the US Air Force when chasing UFOs. Beyond similar one can border on exact! Do you have any thoughts on the propulsion currently on these types of craft? Would you like to see my footage that would add more clarity to the question as this thing hovered in front of me over ten minutes in the bright midday sun? Attached are four comparison views of four various types of craft seen world wide, my pictures are all stored on file with dates an extensive properties, most were taken before the comparison view pictures seen world wide were even shot, solving any issues ,but proving one thing over all. What is happening in Australia is mighty big as the amount of footage of various craft filmed in the same location shows! Again I hope these maybe posted by you to show the public an give them the opportunity to see Australia has very active and ongoing phenomena on a daily level in north Queensland Australia. Thanks to Ross http://www.asoulartphenomena.com Canada - Sightings TORONTO - I saw something that struck me as very odd on November 2, 2005, at 6:42 PM, while out for a walk with my infant son. At 6:42 PM, out of the corner of my eye I spotted a white streak that upon focusing on it went across the horizon till it was obscured by trees. This seemed whiter and brighter than a meteor or a shooting star. Thanks to Brian Vike HALIFAX, NOVA SCOTIA - The witness was out having a smoke on a balcony over looking the Bedford Basin and the Mackay Bridge on November 2, 2004, around 11:15 PM. The witness was looking up and something caught the witnesses eye. It had a three angled chevron shape. It was completely silent, and dark and didn't appear to be lit up. The witness noticed a red sort of diamond shapes on it. This was nothing like an aircraft and flew in half an arc, flew a barrel roll and then it disappeared. Thanks to Brian Vike www.hbccufo.com Brian Vike HBCC UFO Research is driving the 12 hours to Kelowna, British Columbia to take part in the filming of the Kelowna Missing Time Case. It will be a two day shoot and he will most likely arrive back home November 7, 2005. Caribbean Sea T-33s chase UFO WEST INDIES - A formerly classified Air Intelligence Information Report #112 states: During the period 9 through 13 March 1958, three unexplainable radar contacts were made by equipment located in the West Indies. (Probably at Ramey AFB, Puerto Rico.GF) according to recently released Air Force Documents. On two occasions, aircraft were vectored into the area the radar sites, with negative results. Interrogation of the scope operators has indicated that returns were strong and easily distinguished from cloud formations. Returns were definite when associated with clouds. Generally the tracks were triangular with speed of movement very erratic. Movement appears at times to evasive action. The incident of 9/10 March was tracked by gun laying radar. During the period of observation, radar maintenance personnel checked out the system completely. In addition, a lock was broken, however, this equipment immediately picked up target and locked on. A second tracking radar situated on Tobaga Island, locked on the return. Target generally remained in same area half way between the radar sites. Personnel stationed at sites reported seeing red and green lights but no noise was associated with the lights. Visibility was good. A commercial flight volunteered to investigate target and was vectored to a hundred yards of the target, but reported negative sighting. Target faded out at 0208 R on 10 March. At 10:12 search radar reported unidentified target and a T-33 jet was sent to investigate with negative results despite being in the immediate area of the targets. Contact was lost at 14:15R. Air Intelligence Information Report 112. Thanks to investigator Henry= Schuren Editors Note: Numerous reports have been received from Puerto Rico and Venezuela with UFOs reported diving and exiting the Caribbean Sea. The T-33 that I flew with a max speed of 600 mph is often considered the most widely used jet trainer in the world. Chile Photos of UFOs VILLA DEL MAR - These are the UPI photos of the object photographed over Vi=C3=B1a Del Mar and Valparaiso on Sunday, October 30, 2005. Thanks to Scott Corrales Institute of Hispanic Ufology www.inexplicata.us Mexico: Images of Luminous UFOs MEXICO CITY - In the Claverea District comes the report of a large flying object on November 1, 2005, that was accompanied by a smaller "escort" according to the eyewitness Gustavo Casasola. The large sphere remained static for over an hour then headed for the Popocatepetl Volcano. Later Ricardo Antonio Morales, reported a shining spherical object from the Coyoac=C3=A1n district noting that its intensity diminished as airliner went past at 13:00 hours MEXICO CITY - This video recording was made on November 2, 2005, at 8:30 AM, for two minutes using a Sony TRV-340 camera. Ana Luisa Cid witnessed the transit of an elongated luminous object. The unidentified object engaged in back-and-forth motions, occasionally giving the appearance of moving in reverse. Later, she received a report from Salvador Guerrero, advising that a flotilla of spheres had been recorded at 15:20 hours, flying at a high altitude toward the Iztaccihuatl volcano. At night, Ricardo Antonio Morales and passengers on his bus reported sighting of a large green luminous sphere over the Mexico-Puebla Highway enroute to Veracruz. Prof. Cid maintained cell phone contact with Morales and heard the excitement of those present. Three different cameras picked up the UFOs. www.analuisacid.co Translation (c) 2005. Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU). Special thanks to Ana Luisa Cid, Mexico. TEPEXPAN - The first sighting was a white-hued spherical object near the tollbooth on 0ctober 16, 2005. The object entered into a cloud bank. Later Salvador Guerrero and Victor recorded two UFOs around 5 PM, that were suspended near a hill on the way to Teotihuacan. The witnesses described them as "resembling sting rays.=E2=80=9D Two hours later, an object of indefinite shape crossed the sky that was red in color and traveled at high speed southeast. Multiple UFO sighting reports have issued from the town of Tepexpan. Based on these events, Salvador and this author visited this location on October 16 in order to conduct a skywatch. Photos courtesy Salvador Guerrero and V=C3--ctor Thanks to Inexplicata The Journal of Hispanic Ufology Slightly later, on November 1, 2005, Vctor Gabriel Gonzalez was able to videotape the aforementioned event from the town of Tepexpan in Mexico State, reporting that the sphere remained in the sky until 17:45 hours. UK Abduction ENFIELD - Stephen Clementson writes, "Enfield is not too far away from here, and the sighting logic fits with the general scheme regarding the BBC. They used night-sight equipment to video strange crop circle activity near Winchester, back in 1991.=E2=80=9D They felt that it was too politically sensitive to broadcast, so they switched to a negative stance. In other words, they knew all about this weird stuff before I had investigated the area. Then, in 1992, I found it for myself, complete with UFOs. I've got news for the BBC... I'm not screaming with fear at the prospect of meeting alien entities. My wife is an abductee, complete with body marks. BBC has returned to a 1940s-style method of UFO denial, inclusive of the suggestion - although they is careful not to make the assertion - that abductees have bizarre mental health abnormalities. In other words, they are suggesting that abductees are a bit on the nutty side. The BBC are being careful to omit any contradictory evidence, such as, or similar to, the painful scoop marks on my wife's ankle. stephen.clementson.nul Thanks to Stephen Clementson UFO Defense Tactics: Weather Shield to Chemtrails by A. K. Johnstone PhD. Four stars according to Barnes & Noble.com. UFO Casebook relates that it is "information packed.=E2=80=9D Chosen as one of the ten best UFO books of 2002, by Anomalous Book List, it is available walmart.com, amazon.com, Sales.nul or 1-800-938- 1114 Is the government creating a weather shield to deter UFOs from entering the earth's atmosphere? Take a look at the evidence. Michigan MUFON Meeting FLINT - Last Sunday, I spoke at the Michigan MUFON Meeting, and greatly enjoyed the friendship and support shown by this excellent group. Their generous contributions will help enable these files to continue. David Twichell and Bill Konkolesky State Director Michigan MUFON invited me to speak and introduce our new book. Filer's Files: Worldwide Reports of UFO Sightings Major George A. Filer USAF (Ret) & David E. Twichell are happy to announce the release of our new book. If you like Filer's Files newsletter and his monthly report in the MUFON Journal, you'll love the book! It is a collection of some of the most thought provoking UFO sighting and abduction reports from around the world by average citizens, trained observers, astronauts and U.S. presidents. This is a review of many of the best cases in the last several years. The book is $13.95 plus $3.05 shipping Send check to address below or Paypal Donate to Filer's Files to receive CD Your donations do make a difference in my ability to bring you the latest news! So you won't miss a single breaking news story or the increased evidence for UFO and life in the universe. George A. Filer has been bringing you the latest in UFO news since 1995, on radio, television and the Internet. Annual Membership is only $25 for 52 weekly intelligence reports. Don't miss the latest images of UFOs from Earth and Mars. Subscribe today and receive a free UFO Photo CD. Be sure to ask for the CD, Send check or money order to: George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055. You can also go to: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for majorstar.nul You may use Paypal, Visa, Master Charge,or American Express. UFO Earth Mysteries Conference Congress will be held November 12 & 13, 2005. We have exciting speakers who will share their stories and their research. Bordentown, New Jersey .The Days Inn , 1073 US Highway 206 (near I-295 and the New Jersey Turnpike) Days Inn - 609-298-6100 MUFON UFO JOURNAL - For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership includes the Journal and costs only $45.00 per year. To join MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask questions contact MUFONHQ.nul or HQ.nul Filer's Files is copyrighted 2004 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue. These reports and comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to majorstar.nul Sending mail automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 16:54:49 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 18:08:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Boone >From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:47:20 -0500 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:28:31 -0000 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>While I agree with the thrust of your email, I thought it (just >>about) worth mentioning that Bill Cooper claimed to have seen >>documents demonstrating that Klass was a CIA agent. See the >>following in William Cooper's "Behold a Pale Horse" (1991) at >>pages 226, 228 (in Chapter 12) of the Light Technology >>softcover >>edition: >>"Philip Klass is an agent of the CIA. This was stated in the >>documents I saw between 1970 and 1973. One of his jobs as >>an >>aviation expert was to debunk everything to do with UFOs. All >>military commanders were instructed to call him to gain >>information on how to debunk and/or explain UFO contacts >>and/or >>sightings to the public and/or the press if and when the need >>arose..." ><snip> >I should think that someone in Mr. Klass's line of work would >find it very difficult not to have some sort of official or >unofficial contact with one government security service or >another. >That would not mean he had to be an 'agent' of one of them, >although in an informal sense he might have been considered >an >agent of influence. >How could anyone in his profession be completely independent >of >all official influences? There's nothing necessarily - or >perhaps unusually - sinister about that. >Ask Judith Miller. >Pavel Well said there Pavel! There's no telling whom Klass was affiliated with on or off the books. Why put him on the books when there's plausible deniability at the ready? There are all kinds of associations with the intelligence groups some official, some not. Some just a 'wink and a grin' and a surprising number of traffic and parking tickets that suddenly disappear. He was too convenient to have around and all at just the right times. In addition, it's a shame that the mainstream press that courted him for decades didn't do as well a job as Mr. Dolan has done in uncovering one shady area of Klass's character. Anyone on this list is a high candidate for some sort of association with the intelligence communities domestic and foreign. Deeds, not words, define that to a 'T'. Bottom line for me is something Stanton T. Friedman said to us way back in the early '80's at a lecture at Dutchess Community College in downstate NY. He acknowledged a Ms. Fish for her contribution to Ufology and emphasized the importance of one 'doing one's homework' and that rang a bell that's still reverberating to this day. Dolan did his homework. I too shall endeavor to do the kind of investigation and homework I was well trained to do now that my schedule is clearing up. Believe you me, when I get on a critter's tail, that critter gets caught.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 17:03:34 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 18:10:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? - Boone >From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 06:05:40 -0800 >Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:43:36 EST >>Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 05:47:22 -0800 >>>Subject: Re: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:33:49 EST >>>>Subject: Bennewitz & Doty What's The Real Deal? >>>>http://www.greatdreams.com/Falcon-Richard-Doty.htm ><snip> >>>In my book, this casts a large shadow on all statements made >>>>by >>>Doty about Paul Bennewitz and Linda Howe, especially when >>>Doty >>>said he had been in the "Dulce facility" himself at LANL and his >>>story of his presence at an interview with EBE-2 is in the book >>>he co-authored (he denies co-authoring it too, saying he only >>>contributed material). Read the book: Exempt From >>>Disclosure. >>>Bill Moore isn't exactly Mr. honest either. >>Oh, I'm off to the store to get me a copy of your book! >>I have got to read this for myself! Is it listed on your site? I >>don't wanna go to Amazon or Ebay when I can get one directly >>from you. Please list your site and any info for us newbies to >>this drama. >Greg, >You can order the book directly from Collins at: >http://www.ufoconspiracy.com/reports/efd_book.htm >Bill Awesome! I'm all over that! Can't wait to read it. Also, I was surfing the popular Winamp website where people broadcast radio and their own tv shows! One of note is one that deals primarily with 911. Some very no-nonsense DVDs and documentaries and news spots there to be had! I thought that with books like yours, the many DVDs and CDs that the rest of the Ufologists have, if you all just whipped up an hour or two each of content you could broadcast your own promo material on a 24/7 basis. That way folks can know of the materials they can purchase plus get the air dates of upcoming appearances on tv/radio as well as events. The URL to this particular broadcast is: http://216.69.170.35:4420;stream.nsv To view it, you'll need winamp free player at www.winamp.com I'm sure it would be a hit!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: The Material World Abduction Program - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:16:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 18:11:30 -0500 Subject: Re: The Material World Abduction Program - White >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 12:43:16 -0500 >Subject: Re: The Material World Abduction Program <snip> >The sheer numbers of people reporting the phenomena should be >more than enough justification for the larger academic community >to involve itself and launch an investigation into the matter. Two little stumbling blocks: Academic salaries and pensions.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 17:37:21 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 18:14:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Boone >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 13:11:28 -0400 >Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:33:22 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? <snip> >Both Dave Jacobs and myself presented papers at a >conference in >Halifax, NS. During one conversation I asked him if any of the >abductees he interviewed were psychiatrists or psychologists. >He >answered, "Quite a few". It appears "They" are equal >opportunity >abductors. Don Ledger, I'm laughing so hard I can hardly see. Of course the psychiatrists who were abducted were suffering from sleep paralysis or did Dr. Clancy miss them during her 'scientific' investigation? I kid you not, it's become far too clear this UFO enigma has been stymied by the criminals rampant in the psychiatric industry. From as far back as Dr. Forrestal to present day abductees, witnesses, whistleblowers, and investigators who've been victims of or threatened by the use of psychiatric treatment and incarceration. It's in that field alone this mystery will be solved, mark my words. It's been the #1 weapon since the dawn of this phenomenon and even when psychiatrists like Dr. Jacobs and Dr. Mack and several others prove that it's not some delusion, the general quackery of psychiatry tries to beat them down. I for one would love to hear more of what Dr. Jacobs has to say nowadays. Hope he'll be on C2C soon. btw, if C2C devoted all it's time to pounding down on the UFO issue, in a matter of weeks the publicity and disclosures would be so overwhelming people would be talking and acting on it all day long. We cannot fight this fight peacemeal.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 9 Re: An Example Of Rick Doty's Slight Of Hand - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 22:20:28 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 18:16:07 -0500 Subject: Re: An Example Of Rick Doty's Slight Of Hand - Hall >From: Bill Hamilton <skyman22.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 06:51:57 -0800 >Subject: An Example Of Rick Doty's Slight Of Hand >An example of Rick Doty's slight of hand: >From: Paul McGovern >To: RICK DOTY ; Capt Bob Collins, Ret, USAF ; Victor Martinez >Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 18:08 >Subject: Re: "AnonymousI" reveals more EYE-OPENING details on the >human/ET program >You should know all this Rick Doty. I know you were briefed back in >1983. >You want me to prove it? Your ignorance is sickening to me. Why >do you play this part? You want people to think you are the >uninformed but I know different. You should be supporting our >efforts in getting this stuff released. That is, if you are the >real Richard Doty. >I had an experience with Rick Doty and Collins after the Feb >27th show on coast to coast. I was sure it was Rick and he said >so after, but Collins forwared me a message with Rick saying >something like "It happened again like last time, I tried to >call in and set the record straight but couldnt' get through". >I think he was implying that it was an imposter, but that wasn't >true. He likes to backtrack on a lot of things he says. >-Bill Hamilton Bill, So please explain to me why any of you waste even 30 seconds of your time with obvious liars, frauds, and manure spreaders like Doty, the self-styled birds, or any of the others whose reputations for honesty are the pits? One of their purposes clearly is to distract and disinform us, and as long as you play
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 10 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:43:23 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:13:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Friedman >From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:47:20 -0500 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:28:31 -0000 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <snip> >I should think that someone in Mr. Klass's line of work would >find it very difficult not to have some sort of official or >unofficial contact with one government security service or >another. >That would not mean he had to be an 'agent' of one of them, >although in an informal sense he might have been considered an >agent of influence. >How could anyone in his profession be completely independent of >all official influences? There's nothing necessarily - or >perhaps unusually - sinister about that. >Ask Judith Miller. Let's not forget that the Church Committee investigation of the CIA back in the 1970s clearly indicated that the CIA used many journalists. Klass would have been prime meat. Degree in Electrical Engineering, great cover at Av Week, able to attend technical conferences, see what our guys were saying that they shouldn't, and who was asking pointed questions. He had a very fast typewriter, was unmarried most of his professional life, and lived in DC. Has anybody else besides me - and Larry Bryant - filed FOIA
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 10 Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 22:32:15 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:16:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Dickenson >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 13:11:28 -0400 >Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >Both Dave Jacobs and myself presented papers at a conference in >Halifax, NS. During one conversation I asked him if any of the >abductees he interviewed were psychiatrists or psychologists. He >answered, "Quite a few". It appears "They" are equal opportunity >abductors. Hi Don, That's interesting - maybe because, when I was questioning the physical health statistics of doctors - on another List - in UK & USA, someone volunteered that USA psychiatrists have a staggeringly high suicide rate. He quoted a _very_ high percentage. He couldn't give sources and that sort of info seems hard to find - maybe with reason. Cheers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 10 Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 22:31:18 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:24:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Dickenson >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:28:17 EST >Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? <snip> >I'll betcha' the final battle over the UFO mysteries will be >found in the dark recesses of psychiatry/mind control. Right Greg, I have to admit that idea for an "analyst-machine" maybe came from Philip K Dick - his "The Clans of the Alphane Moon" came out again in SF Masterworks a while ago. Seem to remember that had a ironic ending too. Cheers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 10 Re: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? - Chichikov From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 18:02:18 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:13:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? - Chichikov >From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 14:01:54 +0000 >Subject: Re: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? >>From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:04:28 -0500 >>Subject: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? >>Has anyone seen an explanation for the slowing of Saturn's >>rotation as measured by Cassini-Huygens? Please see: >>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4640641.stm >No, but most likely explanation is hinted at in the article although not fully explored. I.e. that different latitudes and different layers, of Saturn's (fluid) surface rotate at different rates - as happens with the Sun. <snip> Ray, Isn't seven minutes worth of momentum in so large a body a lot of momentum to dump? I wonder about the presence of a massive body nearby - clearly an uninformed and unruly idea - but intriguing, to me at least.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 10 Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:28:07 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:15:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Friedman >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 17:37:21 EST >Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 13:11:28 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? <snip> >>Both Dave Jacobs and myself presented papers at a >conference in >>Halifax, NS. During one conversation I asked him if any of the >>abductees he interviewed were psychiatrists or psychologists. >He >>answered, "Quite a few". It appears "They" are equal >opportunity >>abductors. >Don Ledger, I'm laughing so hard I can hardly see. >Of course the psychiatrists who were abducted were suffering >from sleep paralysis or did Dr. Clancy miss them during her >'scientific' investigation? >I kid you not, it's become far too clear this UFO enigma has >been stymied by the criminals rampant in the psychiatric >industry. From as far back as Dr. Forrestal to present day >abductees, witnesses, whistleblowers, and investigators who've >been victims of or threatened by the use of psychiatric >treatment and incarceration. >It's in that field alone this mystery will be solved, mark my >words. It's been the #1 weapon since the dawn of this phenomenon >and even when psychiatrists like Dr. Jacobs and Dr. Mack and >several others prove that it's not some delusion, the general >quackery of psychiatry tries to beat them down. >I for one would love to hear more of what Dr. Jacobs has to say >nowadays. Hope he'll be on C2C soon. >btw, if C2C devoted all it's time to pounding down on the UFO >issue, in a matter of weeks the publicity and disclosures would >be so overwhelming people would be talking and acting on it all >day long. >We cannot fight this fight peacemeal.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 10 Nuclear Bombs Over Canada [was: Paul Hellyer...] From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:38:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:18:56 -0500 Subject: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada [was: Paul Hellyer...] >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:14:16 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:16:51 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >>Also, on two occasions in 1950 U.S. military >>aircraft intentionally dropped nuclear bombs and detonated then >>in the air over Canada. In both of these examples, the Ministers >>of National Defense at the time were not aware or fully briefed >>of these incidents. >You do mean that the nuclear bombs were dropped because prior to >an aircraft crash and did not have their plutonium core in them >so they did not undergo thermonuclear explosion, right? Hi James! The U.S. B-50 bomber which dropped a nuclear bomb over the St. Lawrence River a few miles down the river from Quebec City originated in Goose Bay, Labrador, a U.S. Strategic Air Command base. In 1950 Goose Bay had plenty of Mark 4 nuclear bombs just like the ones the U.S. dropped over Canada that year. The massive blasts were not nuclear but from the 5000 pounds of chemical explosives which vapourized the nuclear bombs. The nuclear bomb detonated off British Columbia earlier that same year was dropped by a B-36 on an exercise bombing run towards Russia from Carswell AFB in Texas (where Jesse Marcel had brought the Roswell UFO crash debris a couple of years earlier to General Roger Ramey who posed with it for photographers). Since this happened during the Cold War years, which in 1950 turned hot with the start of the war in Korea, it makes little sense to me why in both incidents orders were given to drop and destroy their expensive and scarce payload if it was only a dummy bomb without a fissionable core. The false U.S. cover stories at the time may have avoided embarrassing the U.S. and Canadian governments (Canada was supposedly free of all nuclear weapons) but I believe this resulted in exposing Canadians to high levels of nuclear fallout. Since Canada accepted the U.S. explanations without question, no radiation monitoring tests were performed at the time. What does all this have to do with UFOs? If the truth about these nuclear incidents could be kept secret from the public by both the U.S. and Canadian governments until now, we can expect to learn a lot more about UFOs/ETs and Canada's reversed engineered flying saucer project from high level and respected sources such as our past Minister of National Defense, Paul Hellyer. On page 58 of Randall Whitcomb's book 'Avro Aircraft & Cold War Aviation' there is picture of a ackward looking John Frost standing indoors next to a serious faced General Arthur Trudeau who is wearing dark sunglasses. We all know from Lt. Col. Philip Corso's book, 'The Day After Roswell', that this General was with the U.S. Army's Foreign Technology branch that possessed alien technology. John Frost was the chief engineer for the secret 'Project Y' (and the much less secret Avrocar used to distract public attention) and although he worked for A.V Roe Canada in Malton (Toronto), his research was initially funded by the U.S. Army. Although I have yet to confirm this, there is reason to believe that after WWII John Frost met and worked with the mysterious Dr. Meithe who designed and built flying saucers for the Germans that were based on knowledge acquired from crashed UFOs. I was not there in 1950 when three nuclear bombs were lost (the third during a plane crash in California) and like you, I only rely on the documentation that is available to the public. Maybe you or others on the list are better qualified to answer your
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 10 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:19:06 -0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:20:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Shough >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 05:44:48 EST >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:04:14 -0600 >>Subject: Theory and Pragmatism [was: Gill Sighting] >Magonia's anti-empirical anti-scientific method is exemplified >by the recent case of Rev. Gill's "mothership" phraseology. >When Jerry Clark and Dave Rudiak investigated the actual >empirical data of "mothership" word usage to test the >Magonia theory that Gill got the phrase from reading >Adamski or other contactee literature, as well as testing >against Gill interview data, all this was brushed aside as >insufficient to falsify the theorized Adamski connection. >I pointed out that no other Adamski-ite words or contactee >concepts or phrases appeared in Gill's reporting, but to no avail. Hi Brad My position on this affair is this: There is direct evidence that Gill did not get this phrase "from reading Adamski" (his self-report), and there is no direct evidence that Gill got this phrase from any other UFO-related source. Clark and Rudiak have proved that there was ample opportunity for him to have got the phrase from sources in the general non-UFO culture and it is possible that he did. However it is also true that it is possible for him to have heard it (via Normal Cruttwell) from a UFO source, because Cruttwell (his own self-report) was familiar with Adamski, had the literature, showed the Adamski photos to native witnesses in the area, was a close friend of Gill, and had discussed UFOs with him before the Boianai events. In other words it's quite possible that Gill heard the phrase used in both senses. But all this means is that if he did hear Cruttwell use it then it would already have been a familiar phrase in an analogous usage, and any possible recent exposure to it would only make it more natural that it should come to mind on July 26 1959. So we can't infer from Gill's using it that he was in some unusual state of ufosis that night. <snip> Moving on to the other cases. A terrific list, and an outstanding argument at the link you provided to support LaPaz's likely presence in connection with Roswell. You could well be right. Surely they wouldn't have need LaPaz to do trajectory reconstructions to locate a downed balloon train? If he was there doing a job of work, then it must have been something else, presumably observed from multiple locations like a fireball. I suppose we have no guarantee that this was "the Roswell object" but it is suggestive. Re the Clarence Johnson case, I note you use an ascent angle of 5 degs elevation and departure azimuth of 270 degs. A couple of questions: 1) Are you bisecting the two estimated lines of sight (255 degs from Agoura and 285 degs from a position SW of Long Beach) to get that azimuth? 2) Did anyone at either location estimate any elevation angle(s)?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 10 Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Stevenson From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:35:30 +0000 (GMT) Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:23:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Stevenson >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:11:44 EST >Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 12:58:17 +0000 (GMT) >>Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 09:13:25 EST >>>Subject: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >>>http://tinyurl.com/8t9kf <snip> >>>Stay frosty cause I'm telling you guys they're gonna push >>>for this drug treatment crap any day now. >>Tell me about it Greg. >>Enforced UK mental hospital stays. Bunged up with >>anti-psychotics and anti depressants since 1970 and I am >still >>alive despite all recommendations to die from the abduction >>experiences and side effects from these medications. >>Anyone for some treatment for Delusions? >Colin, >I believe you 100%. Matter of fact it's been people from the >UK and France who've told me of the horrors they undergo on a >daily basis. I had no clue to the magnitude til Jeff Rense >told me about it years ago and I had to do my own research. >It's a problem of global magnitude for going on a couple >hundred years now. >I didn't know how bad it was in the UK. At least Prince >Charles lambasted the use of psychiatric drugs on kids. >Any opposing viewpoint to the status quo can land one in a >padded cell or worse from what I've studied. >It's a sinister business and a sloppy attempt at science to >say the least. >If there really was a Sith Cult it would be psychiatry. >My eyes got opened when I was doing a live chat for a magazine >on American Online. The fans, guests would argue about >everything under the sun 24/7. Then one day I chose the topic >of >psychiatry and I was stunned when 99.9% of the people there >tore into psychiatry! Nobody liked it. Their horror stories >just floored me. It was the only time they all agreed on something! >No fly by night characters either. Many were professionals in >various fields and a wide cross section of the human populace >at that! Heck, Satan got a higher approval rating than >psychiatry. >Real Frankenstein stuff there for sure. And I wouldn't be >surprised if some form of forced doping for the religious >groups wasn't on the drawing board. >But to keep things focused, keep a weather eye out for some form >of validation from the psychiatric community that anything ET is >going to be voted in as a new disorder and that some drug will >be deployed. There's too much money in it for them not to. Heck, >if they just made some dumb announcement that a certain drug >alleviates the stress of an abduction they'd make a fortune. >Just think if just $50 a month for a prescription to 10 >million? >That'd be the biggest windfall in psychiatric history. Well Greg I was going to do a lengthy reply but decided just to say my elder Brother who is a dispensing Pharmacist, and my
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 10 Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Stevenson From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:03:55 +0000 (GMT) Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:26:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Stevenson >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:15:54 EST >Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >>From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 13:31:21 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >>>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:33:22 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >>><snip> >>>I'm for treating _psychiatrists_ for delusions, psychiatrists >>>who delude themselves into thinking they have a mandate to be >>>'thought police', instead of their legitimate purpose of helping >>>people with such serious mental problems that they literally >>>can't look after themselves. >><snip> >>Hello Eleanor and All, >>I've heard three prominent psychiatrists, in in-depth >>interviews, confess they'd been attracted to psychiatry by the >>thought of "power over the mind". >>And, when you get down to it, that's just another facet of the >>unbalanced nature of all those who need power over others. >>If someone invented a machine that truthfully analyzed a >>person's mental stability - it would be suppressed by order of >>"authority", especially by psychiatrists. >>Guess why? >Right on there Ray D! >We've all been taken for saps by this mind control nonsense of >psychiatry. That's what it is basically, governmental >sponsored mind control. I am going to scan through the DSM >again to see if there are any mental illnesses that cover UFO >abduction stories. <snip> >I still say the key to this entire UFO mystery will be found >in the dark catacombs of psychiatric institutions. They got the >best data and probably used it to strongarm the military,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 10 Re: Five Alien Abduction Tales Cartoons Noir? - From: Carol Rainey <csrainey1.nul> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:14:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:31:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Five Alien Abduction Tales Cartoons Noir? - >From: Steven Miles Lewis <elfis.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 08:28:44 -0600 >Subject: Five Alien Abduction Tales Cartoons Noir? >This is an older movie that I only saw just recently. Similar in >tone to some of the Spike And Mike Twisted Animation shorts, >this collection of cartoons collects among other things, stories >of abductees told in their own words and animated from drawings >they've made. Included among the abduction narrators is Linda >Napolitano (aka Cortile) telling some of her story (minus the >stalking security guys and supposed UN figurehead). This was of >course my personal favorite among the cartoons featured and I >thought the animation was particularly interesting given the >subject matter. >I was surprised by this film mostly because I'd never even heard >it existed but also because I was unaware of Linda's story >finding an audience beyond Budd's books and lectures. I saw her >at the Albuquerque, New Mexico MUFON conference in 1992 but >thought she pretty much only spoke at events with Budd. Hopkins >is in this short tangentially but not much. >Anyone else seen this? I'd be curious to know what our list >artists think of the animation... Greg Boone, have you seen >this? >Online quotes below... >"Abductees, five true tales of alien abduction told using a >wide range of animated techniques" >"Paul Vester cuts between grainy live action and various >animated styles to illustrate "interviews, hypnotic regression >tapes, and original drawings" by supposed alien abduction >victims. The array of animated visuals remains less than the sum >of its parts, and the viewer is left with the feeling that >Vester has exploited his unimpressive subjects." > >"Abductees - Paul Vester, USA? Date? All the films on this disc >are odd, but this one clearly has a plan, if not a plot. >Several alien abduction testimonials (heard in authentic- >sounding tape recordings) are illustrated with animations that >appear to mimic the scribbled drawings provided by the abductees >themselves. This provides an interesting dimension to the >phenomenon that is the flying saucer cult, because the >abductees's visions reflect more of their own psychological >states than any real events that may have happened to them. Or >maybe they were all abducted and probed nasally and genitally by >these little almond-eyed guys from saucers right out of Ray >Harryhausen. A thoughtful piece that could have used a little >more context; perhaps this was an intentional ploy to remain >neutral on its subject." Hi, Steve, I know the film producer, Paul Vester, and was present during some of the production of the short animation called "Abductees." I think it's a wonderful piece of animation - a very creative way to allow abductees to tell their own stories (no matter how brief or fragmentary). If I remember correctly, four abductees whom Budd had worked with were featured and each story was done by a different animator in a different style to allow us to feel the individuality of each case. Some of the animations of the UFO occupants were based directly on an abductee's drawing of his/her experience.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 10 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Chichikov From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:52:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:33:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Chichikov >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:43:23 -0400 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >Let's not forget that the Church Committee investigation of the >CIA back in the 1970s clearly indicated that the CIA used many >journalists. >Klass would have been prime meat. Degree in Electrical >Engineering, great cover at Av Week, able to attend technical >conferences, see what our guys were saying that they shouldn't, >and who was asking pointed questions. All of which is suggestive but circumstantial. Although Mr. Klass's qualifications may have been of interest to some agency or other, it doesn't necessarily mean that there was actually a connection, or that he was approached with a proposal, to be accepted or rejected. Furthermore, if I had been tasked, formally or informally, to debunk UFOs, I would have assumed that there must be some reality to the phenomenon.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 11 Carbondale UFO chroinicals - Entry #4 From: Matt Graeber <Matthewgraeber.nul com> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 13:52:41 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 11:50:59 -0500 Subject: Carbondale UFO chroinicals - Entry #4 The Carbondale UFO Crash Chronicles Entry No. 4(RE: Visit to Lackawanna County by Mary Sutherland - June 26, 27, & 28, 2005) THE BUFO DOCUMENTARY ON CARBONDALE and OLYPHANT, PA. Was it just "another flash in the pond"!? (A Rebuttal) Welcome back to the Carbondale UFO Crash Chronicles. It's been thirty-two years ago since the Carbondale saga began but, it's only been about two weeks since we've taken our third plunge into the murky depths of BUFOnian thought and investigative fantasy. However, BUFO's Mary Sutherland and her husband Brad have somewhat recently visited Carbondale, the Russell Park Pond, Olyphant, Dunmore, Scranton, and the Pocono Mountains, too. Why, you may ask? Apparently, Mary's whirlwind three day visit included her shooting a documentary film about the 1974 Carbondale UFO crash and it's dreadful cover up. She also interviewed a young woman who was alleged to have been a child-at-the-time eyewitness to the military's secretive recovery operations at the site. Mary even informs us that she's spoken with yet another child-at-the-time eyewitness who was sitting in the Saint Rose of Lima Cemetery on the very cold and dark night of November 9th, 1974- when, suddenly, a firey UFO came streaking down from the sky and crashed smack dab into the pond... (ploop!) What a tragic end to an intergalactic voyage. As you may recall from reading previous chronicle entries, newspaper archival accounts of the incident, and some of BUFO's own posts, one of the three teenage boys who tossed the lantern into the pond back in 1974 also confessed to having made up the entire story about a firey objectfalling to Earth and sinking in the water. There never was a firey object seen in the sky by the teenage trio. However, BUFO dismisses this confession and clings to the fact that the other two boys are sticking to their orginal story. Yet, this same mathematically-based BUfoological is not applied to the fact that two of the three primary UFO field investigators at the scene in 1974 proclaimed the incident to be a hoax. I guess the word of two out of three juvenile delinquents carries far more weight with the folks at BUFO. Mary hasn't told us this recently-discovered lad's complete story yet but, it will be interesting to learn why this "kid" was in the cemetery alone and unattended on the night of November 9th, 1974. But, then again, it might be equally interesting to know why the young woman, who was also a child at the time, claims to have been there and was reportedly standing in the same cemetery with her mother and sister- when they could have easily been safe and warm at home (next door to the pond property, according to BUFO), watching the alleged UFO recovery events unfold. One wonders if a prudent mother would bundle up her little daughters and take them hand-in-hand to stand in a freezing cold cemetery from about 8:30 P. M. to 3:00 A. M. to watch the military (who were not actually there, as a search of newspaper archives confirm, along with UFORIC, ISIS Center and MUFON/APRO UFO group reports and Carbondale Police Documents) and the police authorities recover a UFO from the defunct DeAngelis Company coal breaker's silt pond. One wonders, where was this child's father? Why would he not have questioned the logic and wisdom of doing such a thing? What's worse, this female juvenile eyewitness doesn't agree with Mrs. Sutherland's own pair of UFO investigators about the time of the recovery operations. She defiantly says to them,"I was there... where you?" (Well, at least one of them claims he was there. ) Hmm, it now appears that a total of "six" alleged eyewitnesses were there and never saw one another... oh, make that seven. I almost forgot about Mary's poetic UFO field investigator Frank Scassellati - he was there too - but perhaps a little bit earlier in the evening. (I know that doesn't add up to seven eyewitnesses, but I'm saving the story of two additional 1974 eyewitnesses that BUFO's ace investigators haven't mentioned discovering yet. Their story sharply differs from the others too!) Amazingly, four or five of the eyewitnesses allowed about three decades to slip by before reporting their observations - that is up until the time when BUFO's Hannivig and Scassellati started beating the bushes and flushing them out with "pleas" for witnesses to come forward posted on the internet for BUFO. So, too, while all these excellent observers seem to have completely missed seeing one another at the cemetery and the pond - they all claim to have observed strange activities at the site and appear to have quite "different stories" to tell about it. (Perhaps, parroting portions of BUFO's own "convuluted versions" of the shadowy event which appears at their many websites and links. But, in all fairness, I must mention that it could possibly be that a couple of these witnesses actually did see several "civilian" workmen removing a piece of damaged heavy equipment (i. e., construction machinery), from the area on a low-boy tractor trailer Sunday morning the 10th of November1974 at approximately 5:30-6:00 A. M. Doing so on "light-traffic" days and times is a common practice within the constructuion and demolition industries. So far, BUFO has been speculatively linking the incident at the pond to a UFO crash, a submersible UFO that dodged police bullets fired at it, a soviet missile crash, a portion of a soviet missile crash, a radioactive something or another in the water, a time and space portal that may have opened up into another dimension, unspecified paranormal activities, and of course, the cover-up lantern too. So, one can easily see how a youthful BUFO posts reader might be as confused about the matter as the BUFOonians themselves appear to be. It's really quite difficult to believe that with all the news accounts and published reports on the Carbondale incident, BUFO's Mary Sutherland and her investigators are "Not buying it!", and continuiing to claim that there's a well-organized"cover up" going on at Carbondale, Pennsylvania. Indeed, a cover up that has been so effectively executed for over thirty years, that the true story of the UFO crash never became as well known as the Roswell incident. (i. e., Mr. Hannivig believes that the Carbondale incident has been "kept localized" - he suggests that is evident by the fact that the Carbondale UFO crash story hasn't appeared on national television like the Roswell story). According to Hannivig's Ufoological thinking, that fact more or less clinches his arguementthat it's been covered up. Hannivig also suspects that the Carbondale crash story is more important than the Roswell incident, and may be the most important event of the 20th. and 21st. centuries! But, Mary, Ron and Frank agree that they're "going to change that"; for Mary "wants" people to think, "Roswell/Carbondale!" (see Scranton Times Tribune interview posted at BUFO's website concerning Mrs. Sutherland's recent visit to Carbondale). Moreover, the folks at BUFO "probably" have some sort of explanation in mind for these eyewitness report inconsistancies, contradictions, and discrepancies. And, they have even explained why some ofthe townspeople of Carbondale have developed (and apparently passed down), a sort of "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder" that beset their community as a result of being confronted with the dreadfully-shocking realization that a UFO had crashed in the pond at Russell Park in 1974. (i. e., they refused to believe it! It was just too-too much for them to bear is the gist of a recent BUFO posting). Indeed, the trauma must have been so severe that even the children of these aging eyewitnesses haven't dared to come forward with their "memories" of what Mom and Pop said about the long-ago saucer incident. BUFO's highly informative and "educational" posting on P. T. S. D. is very well-written and it's text vaguely reminded me of a Verterans Administration publication I once read. I think it was a phamplet. Yet, earlier posts penned by BUFO's Ronald Hannivig proclaim that any Carbondalean over forty-five years of age would remember the UFO incident as if it had happened only yesterday - it's too bad that Hannivig hasn't polled this specific age group for potential "adult" eyewitnesses. Doing so may have spared him and Frank Scassellati a lot of internet "appeal" writing for witnesses to come forward... after all, Hannivig thinks there's probably "thousands" of eyewitnesses still living in Carbondale and the surrounding communities. Hmmm, 31 from 45 leaves 14... yeah, that's right! Carbondaleans presently forty-five years old would have been about fourteen years old when the incident occurred. That's a lot older than the child-at-the-time eyewitnesses Mary Sutherland is presenting and attempting to pass off to the public as "star-witnesses". I'm surprised that BUFO's eyewitness "tikes" recall anything at all about November of 1974 - with the exception of the fact that Santa was coming to town soon and it was best to go to bed on time, be good, and eat all your veggies! So, we are expected to accept BUFO's (P. T. S. D. ) psychiatric diagnosis of thecommunity of Carbondale, and not to consider the "possibility" that BUFO's Mary Sutherland, Ron Hannivig, Frank Scassellati may be experiencing a "shared fantasy" entirely of their own making. Including the notions that they are not only first class UFO investigators, poets, investigative journalists, and objective researchers; but reliable amatuer psyschiatrists as well! (Isn't the practice of community-wide psychiatric diagnostics a wonderful Ufoological investigative tool?) However, one shouldn't hold Mr. Scassellati too responsible for his participation in the group's nonsensicaal behavior... as he's informed me that he's never claimed to be a poet, (other's had done that for him) and he's not a professional UFO expert/investigator at all... as he does that sort of thing purely as a hobby. Wouldn't it be "refreshing" to hear those humble words from the lips of contemporary throng of UFO/abduction experts? Then, of course, there is the very sad problem of Mary's rather pointed and sarcastic comments about the "Lanern Explanation's Viability". Mary shows us a photo (in her recent posting concerning her visit),of a lantern which she says an eyewitness at Carbondale gave her. She goes on to explain that this lantern's flame would be immediately extinguished if it were tossed into the pond. She argues that if the flame has no oxygen it can't possibly burn and therefore, cannot possibly be the source of the light which was observed beneath the water during the 1974 incident. She says, "P L E A S E, let's not be RID-iculous", alluding to the fact that two of the three original UFO field investigators, Mr. Douglas K. Dains (Dr. J. Allen Hynek's representative at the scene), myself, and the police authorities' statements claiming that a lantern was indeed the object beneath the pond's surface are less than truthful. (i. e., with Mary's Chief Inspector Clouseau-like logic she believes she's managed to debunk the debunkers and the Carbondale mystery lives on!)Now comes the fun part..... First of all, Mr. Dains and I were both UFO "proponents" at the alleged crash site, not skeptics or debunkers. And the "fatal flaw" with Mary's "proof" is that her posted lantern is not the same lantern as the one which was tossed into the pond by three teenage boys 31 years earlier. The lantern she displays is of similar design, perhaps even an earlier model of the lamp; but, what she "describes" is a kerosene lantern, not a 6-volt heavy duty "battery-powered" lamp like the one I examined at the pond back in 1974. As you know, batteries do not require oxygen to light a lantern - they light a bulb not a flame; and either Mary and her pair of saucer sleuths are woefully unaware of what they're talking about, or else Mary's completely ignorant regarding the nature of "key physical evidence" which was recovered from the pond during the '74 Carbondale incident. Of course, there's a third possibilty to consider too but, that reqires a little deeper and far less agreeable contemplation about the "veracity challenged" Mrs. Sutherland... Hmmm... Do the words "Disingenuous" and "Crafty" come to mind here. (?) Perhaps we should grant Mary and her ace investigators the benefit of a doubt and attempt to establish what she and her saucer sleuths may have known about the hoax lantern, and when they probably knew it. The specifics on the lantern have been a matter of "public record" since 1974 The UFORIC report even described it's twin- bulb assembly and manufacturer'spatent number. The lantern was illuminated by a "6-volt heavy duty battery", and carried the band name "Homart" (i. e., it was a Sears-Roebuck product), manufactured by the Conger Lantern Company of Portland, Oregon. Much of the same information appears in the 1974 MUFON/APRO report of Mr. Douglas K. Dains, and that of Ms. Mary Schmitt's ISIS Center report. Various portions of that information also appeared in many newspaper accounts of the incident, various UFO group newsletters, Magazine articles, Radio and TV reports, police records and a lenghty essay/report which I shared with Mrs. Sutherland back in early 2004- Not to mention the original report on the matter which I sent to the Carbondale Police Department in1974- and a dupicate that I sent to the Carbondale Historical Society in 2004, after Rick Fisher, who was falsely identified by BUFO asone of Frank Scassellati's friends had contacted me concerniing when I might be sending it along. That lenghty and detailed essay can be found at: http://magonia.mysite.wanado-members.co.uk/ms55.htm The story of the "Cover up" that BUFO is talking about appears at several of BUFO's sites and links pertaining to "carbondalerussian" - and it is also located at Mary's http:www.burlingtonnews.net/carbondale.html site. (Be sure to check out the story of her visit to Carbondale by clicking on the big green link block. While reading Mary Sutherland's description of a kerosene lantern on the right side of the page, take a peek on the left side of the same BUFO page and you'll see Ms. Lisa Schencker's Scranton Times article - in which Ms. Schencker (a staff reporter), decsribes the latern(from 1974 newspaper archival records), as being a 6 volt battery-operated lamp. Hmmm, Might that mean Ms. Schencker is unwittingly in on the cover up too? Additionally, there is Mary's interview with Scranton Times Staff Reporter Ms. Lias Schencker to consider: In which Mary "Apparently forgets" to mention that if it wasn't a UFO that crashed into the pond in '74, her investigator's have been "repeatedly" telling her that it may have been a Soviet missile, and Mary's been posting that story for quite some time. BUFO "borrowed" the Soviet missile yarn from the late Robert D. Barry of the presently defunct 20th Century UFO Bureau. Robert D. Barry (a. k. a. Bob Barry), was the visibly emotional individual who was actually something of a loose cannon at the 1974 scene of the inciden, and is also known for his claims concerning someone's seeing alien bodies at the Kecksberg,PA. UFO crash of 1965. (Some seasoned Ufologists who knew Barry privately joked that the middle initial in his name stood for "Dubious!") I informed Mrs. Sutherland about the problems with Mr. Barry's Soviet missile story and his questionable reputation over a year ago. I even advised Mary and her investigators on how they might"verify" what I said. Obviously, Mary and her colleagues have chosen to ignore that privilaged, friendly and insightful information. Mr. Barry's 1974 report on the Carbondale incident has served as the "nucleus" of BUFO's "UFO Cover up" stories - as well as the "Petition" they plan to present to the Pennsylvania Congressional Delegation requesting a Government Accounting Office inquiry into the alleged UFO crash and its cover up. (What a complkete waste of tax dollars that would be... but, then again, BUFO would get some free publicity out ofhte story). Moreover, Barry also included dead aliens in his 1978 yarn about yet another saucer crash about 90 miles away form Alamagordo, New Mexico in 1962. At that time,(1978) Barry appears to have completely "forgotten" to mention the Kecksberg, Carbondale, Roswell and Aztec, NM. UFO incidents to the UPI journalist. So, it seems that a certaim amount of absent-mindedness afflicts some of the self-appointed UFO experts from tine to time during press interviews. I wonder if there's such a malady as A. T. P. I. S. D. or, "At The Press Interview Stress Disorder? Of course, back in early 1978, the Roswell story didn't have any alien bodies in the report senario yet; and Barry seems to have been far more interested in trying to convince the UPI journalist that the 1977 movie "Close Encounters of the Third Kind", was based on 70% fact. (In government sponsored preparation for the public to become aware that we have visitors from outer space). Somehow, the idea that filmmaker Steven Speilberg may have read a UFO book or two to give his film a bit of authenticity seems to have completely eluded Mr. Barry's critical thought processes. (This is a very common example of Ufoological thinking). One may recall from reading previous Carbondale Chronicle entries that Ufoological thinking is characterized by "quantum leaps of illogical assumption" and the pursuit of careless and ridiculous investigative methods. But, all is not for naught. For Mary and her investigators photographed "Super-Charged Orbs" in the St. Rose of Lima Cenetery (Adjacent to the pond), and although I thought they looked suspiciously like tiny insects on the wing caught in a camera's flash... Mary and her small band of Marymen also witnessed some extoplasm (fortunately, no one was slimed!). I'm not sure about this point but, I thought Super-Charged Orbs are usually fitted with dual exhaust pipes... but, then again, I never enrolled for any college courses in "Orbology" so, I may be mistaken. The BUFOonians also seem to feel that there's a "Portal" or gateway into another space and time continuum at the cemetery; which may be how the UFOs slip in and out of our airspace so swiftly and undetected? Naturally, Mary and her colleagues saw UFOs during her very brief visit. (what a curious and extraordinarly "lucky" cooincidence). As you may already know, according to Mary quite a bit of of UFO and paranormal activity has been taking place around her UFO/Paranormal gift shoppe back home in Burlington,Wisconsin too. However, a rival UFO group in Wisconsin actually paid a private investigator to keep an eye on Mary's store for a week or so, just to see if UFO and Paranormal activities were actually going on there. The P. I. saw nothing unusual, and no police reports existed concerning recent UFO and/or paranormal incidents during the time of Mary's numerous sightings and incident claims. When confronted with this apparent contradiction, Mrs. Sutherland flat-footedly replied (words to the effect), that it makes prefect sense that people would report incidents of this type to her (not the Burlington Police Department), because she operates a UFO/Paranormal center. Then, it was off to nearby town of Olyphant, where Mary, Ron and Frank's friend John Peruka had "discovered" that the town is actually located near the "Center of the Universe". He also discovered that we mere mortals are made up of timy pyramids of light. I doubt that these pyramids use kerosene or batteries to glow but, then again, I hadn't taken any classes in "Pyramidology"either. Well, Mary and her husband Brad have now returned to the delightfully enchanting and strangely romantic city of Burlington,Wisconsin- and Mary's documentary film on all of the above will probably be available at her Online Store in the very near future. Mary hopes to return to Carbondale and perhaps sponsor a UFO conference... Moreover, her Documentary will also be available to the media for a possible cable TV Special on the Carbondale/Olyphant mysteries. Since Mary's star eyewitnesses were child-at-the-time UFO observers, it's also possible that Mary's documentary might be appealing to the producers of TV shows like Sesame Street which has a much larger viewing audience than most cable channels. Moreover, I'm certain that Kermit the frog and his main squeeze Miss Piggy, would love to hear all about BUFO's pond stories. At the present moment, the bottom line appears to be that Mary Sutherland and her colleagues desire to make the words Roswell and Carbondale synonymous or, $ynonymou$ (take your pick). But, I feel she'd be far better off working on making BUFO into an "objective/credible" souce of UFO information. FLASH! Rick Fisher of Paranorrnal, Pa. has very recently contacted me and denied being a member, associate or colleague of Frank Scasslatti's or Ron Hannivig's. He says that much of the information pertaining to him which is posted on BUFO sites, is both inaccurate and misleading. Well, discuss this latest development a bit further in a future chronicles entry. OFFICIAL NOTICE and DISCLAIMER: Previous entries of the Carbondale UFO Crash Chronicles may mention posted information and messages that no longer appear at the BUFO sites and links; as they have been altered since Mary Sutherland's "Momentous" visit to Carbondale and Olyphant on June 26-27-28th of 2005, and since the Chronicle entries have appeared at UFO UpDates. Those wishing to examine the previous BUFO posts for research purposes may be able to obtain "excerpted copies" from Mrs. Sutherland directly, as her posts are copyrighted and I doubt that she would appreciate my providing you with them. However, if Mary turns your requests down. There is a distinct possibilty that since she has removed those old posts from her CobWeb Sites they may fall under the ruling of "Public Domain"on published research papers, reports and nonsensical drivel... so, ask me again and I'll see what I can do. As always, the author of the Carbondale UFO Crash Chronicles is soley responsible for this journal's contents.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 11 MIT Study Do Tinfoil Helmets Really Work? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 11:57:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 11:57:06 -0500 Subject: MIT Study Do Tinfoil Helmets Really Work? Source: The National Business Review - Auckland, New Zealand http://tinyurl.com/8ls2e 10-Nov-2005 MIT Study: Do Tinfoil Helmets Really Work? Tech humour, really, move along, nothing to see here Engineers at the Massachussetts Institute of Technology have published results: http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/ showing that tinfoil helmets, prized in many circles for an assumed capacity to resist mind control rays from aliens and governments, may actually amplify the controlling signals. There's only one problem: The humour of the engineers is so deadpan, the findings are likely to be cited ad infinitum in conspiracy and UFO journals. The abstract for the profusely illustrated study says: "Using a $250,000 network analyser, we find that although on average all helmets attenuate invasive radio frequencies in either directions (either emanating from an outside source, or emanating from the cranium of the subject), certain frequencies are in fact greatly amplified. These amplified frequencies coincide with radio bands reserved for government use according to the Federal Communication Commission (FCC). Statistical evidence suggests the use of helmets may in fact enhance the government's invasive abilities. We theorize that the government may in fact have started the helmet craze for this reason." The study contains recommendations for the construction of helmets that will work more efficiently as well as detailed results on the examination of three classic helmets, the Classical, the Fez, and the Centurion. One finding, raising entirely new fields of speculation, is that certain frequencies enhanced by the helmets are in the hands of multi-national corporations. The researchers did not, however, delve into the critical question of whether one should construct hats with the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 11 Sky Is The Limit For UFO Hunters From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:01:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:01:27 -0500 Subject: Sky Is The Limit For UFO Hunters Source: The Redditch Advertiser, Worcestershire, UK http://tinyurl.com/8ls2e Thursday 10 November 2005 Sky Is The Limit For UFO Hunters Cataloguing unexplained activities in the night skies above the UK has been the 11-year project of Alvechurch couple John Hanson and Dawn Holloway. They have spent more than a decade researching and compiling accounts of unidentified flying objects since 1940 ready for a four-volume publication. With a working title of Haunted Skies, the book features in- depth accounts of unexplained objects in the sky presented chronologically. "We have included a lot of stuff that has never been covered before," said Mr Hanson. The 58-year-old retired policeman explained he first became interested in the subject after speaking to some fellow officers about something they had seen in the night skies over Birmingham in the early 1990s. He and his partner then started to look at other stories - often in newspapers - and used telephone directories to contact the people who had reported the sightings. The stories flooded in from all over the country, with accounts from former servicemen, pilots and policemen, as well members of the public. "There is nothing better than speaking to someone first hand," said Mr Hanson. "It's rather exciting talking to senior airmen who have seen some amazing things." However, the couple have also followed up their fair share of hoax stories, including one where a man photographed discs on his car windscreen and claimed they were UFOs. "We are firm believers that you can only form your own opinions by doing your own research," said Mr Hanson, of Red Lion Street. The couple are now looking for a talented graphic artist to help them design a book cover. "We want the quality of the artwork to reflect the quality of the book," said Mr Hanson. Anyone interested in offering their artistic services to the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 11 Aliens Or Pie In The Sky? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:07:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:07:30 -0500 Subject: Aliens Or Pie In The Sky? Source: The Cambridge Evening News - Cambridgeshire, UK http://tinyurl.com/az7pd Thursday 10 November 2005 [Images & Side Bars] Aliens - Or Pie In The Sky? Blue and white circular objects reported in the sky, shooting stars falling to the ground, a silver grey rod flying over a small town - it sounds like a scene from Close Encounters of the Third Kind. But an exclusive News investigation has discovered normally quiet and unassuming small towns such as Huntingdon, Girton, Ely and St Neots are a hotbed of extra terrestrial activity. Ten UFOs have been reported in Mid-Anglia in the past three years according to the Ministry of Defence, which revealed the figures after the News made a request under the Freedom of Information Act. But is this an invasion of little green men or a figment of fertile imaginations? Four lights, one brighter than the others, seen in the skies over Ely in February last year could be a signal from extraterrestrials that has travelled millions of lightyears to get here using physics we do not yet understand. Or it could be a plane. The British UFO Research Association (BUFORA) has investigated reports of flying saucers, abduction, crop circles and all things alien since 1964. Robert Rosamond, the group's chairman, said most sightings can be rationally explained. "Some are everyday like aircraft, military or civilian, or astronomical phenomena like shooting stars," he said. "And they can be very rare like geological glowing balls of light. All these can be mistaken by people for UFOs. We find that 95 per cent of all reports can be explained." Cambridgeshire seems to be a highway to the restaurant at the end of universe in the past 20 years, if reports are to be believed. Teenager Jamie Wilks said he saw a strange craft defy the laws of gravity in Vinery Road at 10.30pm in August 1994. The 14-year-old and his friends claimed they saw "strange pin- pricks" zipping backwards and forwards in the sky, followed by what looked like some sort of craft emerging from behind a cloud. "I'm convinced it wasn't a plane," said Jamie. "Planes don't move like it was moving. It was defying the laws of physics." Leslie Woodbridge was convinced he saw an alien craft while driving across the Fens near Ely early one morning in November 1987. "I thought it was an aircraft, but its shape, speed and colour soon convinced me it was something far more strange," he said. "I wasn't dreaming. It was incredible - the most fascinating thing I've seen in my life." Mr Rosamond says BUFORA tried to be as scientific as possible while investigating possible UFOs. "There are a few people who will hound you out a room if you say a sighting might not be UFO but we tried to be as objective as possible," he insists. "We are neither pro-UFO nor anti-UFO. We look at each case individually and we try to look at the broad aspects of the phenomenon." "Ufology", as it has been dubbed, takes in many other subjects, such as psychology, the sciences and astronomy, adds Mr Rosamond. "We have all had individual cases where there is no obvious rational explanation but they are very rare. We never close a case and as we learn more it is possible phenomena we don't understand now can be explained later," he said. Hollywood has also played its part. BUFORA files from the 1980s are bulging following the release of Stephen Spielberg's 1977 blockbuster Close Encounters of the Third Kind and his later hit ET, says Mr Rosamond. "We have files going back to 1924, and the stereotype image of grey aliens you can see on everything from the bottom of skateboards to TV commercials came from the US. Prior to that there was nothing in the UK," he adds. Since Roswell, when an alien craft allegedly crashed in New Mexico in 1947, reports of UFOs grew but over the past 15-years interest in little green men has died and sightings have dwindled. Mr Rosamond says: "We are keeping an open mind. We will keep searching for answers." An Ministry of Defence spokeswoman said: "A combination of civil and military radar installations provide a continuous real-time 'picture' of UK airspace. "Any threat to the UK Air Defence Region would be handled in the light of the particular circumstances at the time (it might, if deemed appropriate, involve the scrambling or diversion of air defence aircraft). "Reports provided to us of 'UFO' sightings are examined within this department, but consultation with air defence staff is considered only where there is sufficient evidence to suggest a breach of UK air space. "The vast majority of reports we receive are very sketchy and vague. Only a handful of reports in recent years have warranted further investigation and none revealed any evidence of a threat. "The MoD does not have any expertise or role in respect of 'UFO/flying saucer' matters or to the question of the existence or otherwise of extraterrestrial lifeforms. "We remain totally open-minded, but to date we know of no evidence which substantiates the existence of these alleged
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 11 The Truth Is Way Out There From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:23:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:23:35 -0500 Subject: The Truth Is Way Out There Source: The Pine Journal - Cloquet, Minnesota, USA http://tinyurl.com/9pdrv Wednesday, November 09th, 2005 Stein's Lines The Truth Is Out There... Way Out There Scott Stein The Pine Journal You may not realize it, but our lovely planet is right now going through a bunch of space garbage. At least that's what the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) is saying. They were responding to an increasing number of reports coming from Germany describing =93massive fireballs=94 in the sky. Such is the phenomena UFO sightings are born from. German amateur astronomers have spotted the fireballs over the past month, leading to a dramatic increase in the number of people reporting seeing UFOs. People aren't just seeing them in Germany, however. Reports of fireballs in the sky have also increased in Canada, the U.S., Ireland, the Netherlands and Japan. NASA's Web site http://nasa.gov mentions reports about the sightings. Scientists say people are probably seeing the annual Taurid meteor shower, which shoots off from the constellation Taurus and reaches their peak at this time of year. That's not the only theory, however. Other people have suspected falling satellites, or, my personal favorite, UFOs. The balls of fire have been described as =93something out of a science fiction horror film,=94 and if they are a boring old meteor shower, I much prefer the UFO theory. Frankly, it's more fun this way. I've never been much of a believer in UFOs, probably because I hate to think this is the best place to vacation in the galaxy. But a strange thing happens to you when you start looking into it =96 it starts to make sense. I've never had an extra-terrestrial experience and, honestly, I don't want to. I shake bad enough when a see a buck come out of the brush. I can't imagine what I'd do if I saw a UFO. But there are some darn good reasons why UFOs would come here. Here are just a few. 1. Curiosity. Why do you go on vacation? You want new experiences. Scaring the dickens out of earthlings would be interesting and fun, especially in you were a teenage alien. 2. Resources. Water, minerals, oil (wouldn't that be something) =96 all reasons for aliens to visit us. 3. To give advice. Maybe they just want to tell us to quit ruining the planet and killing each other... or else. 4. Genetic manipulation. Our race needs all the help we can get, frankly. 5. Invasion. I tend to disagree with this one. If they wanted to, they could have done it already. Our species isn't that smart or capable of defending ourselves. Look at all the reality television we watch. In summary, I don't know what the fireballs in the skies are. I leave it to you to draw your own conclusions, except to say that if UFOs did want to visit us and didn't really want us to believe they were here, wouldn't they come during an annual meteor shower, knowing that NASA and all the other PhDs would tell us to quit worrying?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 11 Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:41:37 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:22:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? - Boone >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:28:07 -0400 >Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 17:37:21 EST >>Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? <snip> >For the record, James Forrestal was not "Dr." and Dr. David >Jacobs is a historian and not a psychiatrist or psychologist . Thanks for clearing that up Mr. Friedman.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 11 Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:57:07 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:24:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Smith >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:38:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:14:16 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >>Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >The U.S. B-50 bomber which dropped a nuclear bomb over the St. >Lawrence River a few miles down the river from Quebec City >originated in Goose Bay, Labrador, a U.S. Strategic Air Command >base. In 1950 Goose Bay had plenty of Mark 4 nuclear bombs just >like the ones the U.S. dropped over Canada that year. The >massive blasts were not nuclear but from the 5000 pounds of >chemical explosives which vapourized the nuclear bombs. >The nuclear bomb detonated off British Columbia earlier that >same year was dropped by a B-36 on an exercise bombing run >towards Russia from Carswell AFB in Texas... >Since this happened during the Cold War years, >which in 1950 turned hot with the start of the war in Korea, it >makes little sense to me why in both incidents orders were given >to drop and destroy their expensive and scarce payload if it was >only a dummy bomb without a fissionable core. http://www.thebulletin.org/article.php?art_ofn=nd99norris_024 http://www.portaec.net/library/peace/1950_bomber_crash_in_bc.html Of course, anything we say is based on second(third or more) hand data. In both cases, the aircraft had engine trouble and the warheads had no fissionable material in the warheads. There are likely a few reasons for destroying the warhead separately. The best I can think of is that it is better to destroy the warhead if it contains secret information within the hardware to make such devices. Also, maybe they thought if they got rid of the heavy bomb weight, they could make it to safety. >The false U.S. cover stories at the time may have avoided >embarrassing the U.S. and Canadian governments (Canada was >supposedly free of all nuclear weapons) but I believe this >resulted in exposing Canadians to high levels of nuclear >fallout. Since Canada accepted the U.S. explanations without >question, no radiation monitoring tests were performed at the >time. I think back then, atomic testing fallout was very much underemphasized. But any radiation from the crashes you describe seems small. >What does all this have to do with UFOs? If the truth about >these nuclear incidents could be kept secret from the public by >both the U.S. and Canadian governments until now, we can expect >to learn a lot more about UFOs/ETs and Canada's reversed >engineered flying saucer project from high level and respected >sources such as our past Minister of National Defense, Paul >Hellyer. It would be interesting to see what, if anything, is said about UFOs in past declassified documents. But whether we can believe anything they say is another issue. >We all know from Lt. Col. Philip >Corso's book, 'The Day After Roswell', that this General was >with the U.S. Army's Foreign Technology branch that possessed >alien technology. <snip> >Although I have yet to confirm this, there is >reason to believe that after WWII John Frost met and worked with >the mysterious Dr. Meithe who designed and built flying saucers >for the Germans that were based on knowledge acquired from >crashed UFOs. Good luck on your researches. I have little faith in these kind of stories. >I was not there in 1950 when three nuclear bombs were lost (the >third during a plane crash in California) and like you, I only
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 11 Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:24:50 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:27:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Friedman >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:38:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:14:16 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >>Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:16:51 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >>>Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >>>Also, on two occasions in 1950 U.S. military >>>aircraft intentionally dropped nuclear bombs and detonated then >>>in the air over Canada. In both of these examples, the Ministers >>>of National Defense at the time were not aware or fully briefed >>>of these incidents. >>You do mean that the nuclear bombs were dropped because prior to >>an aircraft crash and did not have their plutonium core in them >>so they did not undergo thermonuclear explosion, right? >Hi James! >The U.S. B-50 bomber which dropped a nuclear bomb over the St. >Lawrence River a few miles down the river from Quebec City >originated in Goose Bay, Labrador, a U.S. Strategic Air Command >base. In 1950 Goose Bay had plenty of Mark 4 nuclear bombs just >like the ones the U.S. dropped over Canada that year. The >massive blasts were not nuclear but from the 5000 pounds of >chemical explosives which vapourized the nuclear bombs. >The nuclear bomb detonated off British Columbia earlier that >same year was dropped by a B-36 on an exercise bombing run >towards Russia from Carswell AFB in Texas (where Jesse Marcel >had brought the Roswell UFO crash debris a couple of years >earlier to General Roger Ramey who posed with it for >photographers). Since this happened during the Cold War years, >which in 1950 turned hot with the start of the war in Korea, it >makes little sense to me why in both incidents orders were given >to drop and destroy their expensive and scarce payload if it was >only a dummy bomb without a fissionable core. <snip> Nick, Do you have some sources? I don't understand what you have said about the nuclear bombs. Did they have nuclear cores or not? How could there be fallout if there was no nuclear chain reaction? I believe it may have been common practice to carry dummy nuclear weapons since they were so heavy and could effect fuel usage, maneuverability etc. B-29's had to have special bomb bays because of the weight of the old nuclear weapons. One was also dropped accidentally out of a plane in New Mexico. No nuclear fallout. A B-52 went down with 4 as I recall... off Spain. Jesse Marcel and General Ramey in the pictures we see from J. Bond Johnson are with phony balloon wreckage not Roswell
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 11 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:52:10 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:30:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Clark >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 18:29:12 EST >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 14:45:38 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 10:46:26 -0600 >>>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <snip> Hi, Brad, >Klass' politics were left-liberal until the 80's when he married >an anti-communist Hungarian gal and then he shifted to the >right. He held Nixon in contempt over Watergate, constantly >joking and criticizing the right and its conspiratorial views. >Klass fit right in with the left-liberal politics of CSICOP and >its parent org the American Humanist Association, hardly the >bastion of right-wing politics. As a lifelong, card-carrying liberal, I know something about other liberals. Most of my friends, including people - mostly non-ufologists - who knew Klass, are or were also liberals. No one of them has ever described Klass as a "left-liberal." That is one thing he certainly was not. He was not even a "right- liberal" or a "center-liberal." Beginning in 1976 or so, I exchanged literally hundreds of letters with Klass, and not once did he express a point of view one could characterize remotely as liberal, much less "left- liberal" (by which adjective/noun I suppose you mean something like a perspective one might find generally in The Nation or The Progressive). Klass also would quote from various magazines he read, and they were _never_ liberal or left journals. To the contrary, his favorite magazine, judging by the frequency with which he cited it, was the right-wing National Review (which, by the way, was never enthusiastic about Nixon, judging him an opportunist and not a true conservative; NR, to its credit, also opposed lunatic right conspiracy theories and early on rejected the John Birch Society). Klass, who never changed his mind about anything, did not have to marry a woman from Soviet-dominated Eastern Europe to discover the right-wing brand anti-Communism and a McCarthyite style. During the Watergate era, when a different Republican party was in control of the country, many Republicans came to see Nixon as corrupt and out of control. This really was not an ideological issue. One leading Republican who all but openly despised Nixon, and who used colorful language to express his detestation, was Barry Goldwater, with William Buckley essentially the founding father of the modern American political movement calling itself conservatism. By the time of Watergate, Nixon had many enemies on among conservatives, moderates, and liberals alike. There was, in other words, no ideological litmus test involved here. Moreover, to this day many rightwingers even think of Nixon as something of a dangerous liberal. By the time he was elected President, conservative allegiance to Nixon was no more than a marriage of convenience. They had no illusion that he was among the true believers. CSICOP itself was and is not particularly a liberal group. Its chairman Paul Kurtz voted, for example, for Reagan and - at least when I was paying attention to him - was essentially a neoconservative and a hard- line anti-Communist. The CSICOP people I knew and interacted with were all over the ideological map, and some were simply not much interested in politics (such as my late friend Gordon Stein). The only sorts of people you wouldn't find among CSICOPs were and are members of the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 11 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 00:56:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:40:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Ledger >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 14:36:13 -0600 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 14:45:38 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <snip> >Klass's definition of "patriotism" was not and is not my own, >and I'm sure not yours, either. He defined patriotism as loyalty >to the state in its most rigid, armed, and authoritarian >aspects. I think that temperamentally he was attracted to the >military, the Defense Department, and the corporate entities >with which they interact and prosper in what Eisenhower called >the military-industrial complex. Klass belonged to a generation >of right-wing journalists attracted to an illiberal brand of >anti-Communism which led a number to enlist in Sen. McCarthy's >crusade. Unrestrained, uncritical and unquestioned patriotism serves non but those looking out for their own self interest. The worst thing that can happen is they get into power with a majority. >>Without trying to enlist him would they not have been able to >>simply appeal to his patriotism and perhaps share their >>"concerns" about the direction that this flying saucer thing was >>taking and how there was some reason to suspect the Soviets were >>behind the scare mongering? >If there is a big UFO cover-up (how I feel about that depends >generally upon what the phase of the moon is at the moment, or >how many cups of coffee I happen to have consumed), I doubt very >much that Klass knew of it. Though he could have been adding to the result if there is. >That said, yes, he could well have been a useful idiot in a >cover-up's service. His Pentagon contacts could have pumped him >for information without betraying their true purpose. Klass >could honestly have thought that he was "merely" reporting on >prying, potentially disloyal ufologists who might accidentally >(or purposely) expose some classifed aviation-technology project >while hunting, say, for crashed saucers. Hide in plain sight. >Based on what he remarked to the University of Nebraska, too, >he probably didn't appreciate ufologists' lack of proper >reverence for U.S. government pronouncements. Klass actually >stated to me that no patriotic American could ever believe a >President would lie. As I say, he was in many ways a child. And >not a charming one. Cripes everyone lies, particularly the president. Can you imagine trying to keep state and political secrets without lying? The man must have been a child. >I appreciate your clarification, Don. It appears that we're >largely in agreement, just using slightly different language and >emphasis. With a couple of FOIAs in the works possibly more information will be forthcoming. Brad surmises that Klass was not trusting of his government in some respects and actually could have been investigated by the FBI, which does not necessarily get him off the hook. With the devious trail laying that goes on in the spook world and the fact that various agencies won't cooperate or share information with each other, who knows whether Klass was being exploited by one of them while keeping it from others and Klass himself, for that matter.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:49:00 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:16:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rimmer >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:19:06 -0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 05:44:48 EST >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>Magonia's anti-empirical anti-scientific method is exemplified >>by the recent case of Rev. Gill's "mothership" phraseology. >>When Jerry Clark and Dave Rudiak investigated the actual >>empirical data of "mothership" word usage to test the >>Magonia theory that Gill got the phrase from reading >>Adamski or other contactee literature, as well as testing >>against Gill interview data, all this was brushed aside as >>insufficient to falsify the theorized Adamski connection. >>I pointed out that no other Adamski-ite words or contactee >>concepts or phrases appeared in Gill's reporting, but to no >avail. >My position on this affair is this: There is direct evidence >that Gill did not get this phrase "from reading Adamski" (his >self-report), and there is no direct evidence that Gill got this >phrase from any other UFO-related source. Clark and Rudiak have >proved that there was ample opportunity for him to have got the >phrase from sources in the general non-UFO culture and it is >possible that he did. >However it is also true that it is possible for him to have >heard it (via Normal Cruttwell) from a UFO source, because >Cruttwell (his own self-report) was familiar with Adamski, had >the literature, showed the Adamski photos to native witnesses in >the area, was a close friend of Gill, and had discussed UFOs >with him before the Boianai events. Which is pretty much what I was saying. The really interesting
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:12:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:19:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Kaeser >From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:52:39 -0500 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:43:23 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>Let's not forget that the Church Committee investigation of the >>CIA back in the 1970s clearly indicated that the CIA used many >>journalists. >>Klass would have been prime meat. Degree in Electrical >>Engineering, great cover at Av Week, able to attend technical >>conferences, see what our guys were saying that they shouldn't, >>and who was asking pointed questions. >All of which is suggestive but circumstantial. Although Mr. >Klass's qualifications may have been of interest to some agency >or other, it doesn't necessarily mean that there was actually a >connection, or that he was approached with a proposal, to be >accepted or rejected. >Furthermore, if I had been tasked, formally or informally, to >debunk UFOs, I would have assumed that there must be some >reality to the phenomenon. Pavel, Most of the Klass discussion is going to be based on opinion, with the exception of the paper trail he left behind. But, IMO, Klass was driven by the challenge of defeating the theories and arguments of his opponents, using whatever (semi)logical concept he can come up with. If he couldn't attack or challenge the evidence, then he'd challenge or attack the witnesses or researchers involved. There wasn't a question of searching for truth or an attempt to clear up a mystery, but his actions were of a boxer taking jabs at his opponent and hoping for a knock-out. I believe that Stanton Friedman developed a list of rules that skeptics appear to follow in their efforts, and they were based on his involvement Klass. Of course, as we've seen in this thread, Klass didn't think a lot of Friedman, so the feeling was certainly mutual. I do find it a bit amusing that even in death, Klass has become a central focus for ufologists and he can probably sit back and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 New Articles Posted at Fatemag.com From: John Zupansic <webmaster.nul> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:27:30 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:21:19 -0500 Subject: New Articles Posted at Fatemag.com Hello Three new articles have been posted at Fatemag.com that may be of interest to you and to the UFO UpDates List. Alien Artifacts in the Solar System? By Curt Sutherly http://www.fatemag.com/2005_11art1.html Dr. James McDonald's Fight for UFO Science by Ann Druffel http://www.fatemag.com/2005_11art3.html As Time Goes By: Time Distortions and the UFO Experience By Tim Swartz http://www.fatemag.com/2005_11art2.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Watson From: Nigel Watson <nigelwatson1.nul> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 14:01:07 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:23:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Watson >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 14:18:21 -0600 >Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? >>From: Nigel Watson <nigelwatson1.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 19:43:00 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? >>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 13:39:00 EDT >>>Subject: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? >>There is a two-way interaction between film art and UFO >>observations. Unfortunately ufologists have tended to ignore the >>influence of the cinema on our perception of the UFO phenomenon >>whilst filmmakers have largely ignored the wealth of material >>within the UFO literature that could bring new insights into the >>human condition onto the cinema screen. >An obvious question in response to the sweeping assertions above: >If science-fiction films can trigger vivid hallucinations which >those who experience them mistake for actual real events, other >kinds of films must also stimulate comparably vivid and >realistic hallucination of non-UFO phenomena? What are they, >and where is the evidence? If we are totally sceptical about the existence of aliens and UFOs visiting our planet then it is obvious that films on this topic are interacting with our belief systems related to this topic. I think it is a mistake to think that a specific UFO film will cause or immediately 'trigger' sightings or experiences, but films can help shape or reinforce our perceptions of the 'real' world. They are part of our wider experience of the world and they can hit a chord with certain individuals who might be overtly influenced by such films along with other media like UFO books, websites and magazines. Hollywood cinema and series like the X-Files have made a rich breeding ground for grooming would- be abductees. If I had to make a choice it seems more reasonable to me that films are helping to trigger experiences that people mistake as real rather accepting the 'evidence' supplied by abduction believers.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Cattle Mutilation In Parera Argentina From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 10:46:04 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:25:03 -0500 Subject: Cattle Mutilation In Parera Argentina INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology November 11, 2005 ----- Source: Ciufos-LaPampa Date: 11.11.05 Argentina: Cattle Mutilation in Parera In a field located some 5 km from the community of Parera, Province of La Pampa, an Aberdeen Angus cow was found mutilated some days ago, presenting an incision that covered part of its head, upper and lower maxillary on the left side of the head, and missing some teeth and its tongue. Livestock rancher Armando Giraudo noted that he was surveying his herd as usual and noted the absence of an animal. He would find it dead at the rear of the field, against the barbed wire fence.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Re: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? - Scheldroup From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:02:35 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:29:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? - Scheldroup >From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:04:28 -0500 >Subject: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? >Has anyone seen an explanation for the slowing of Saturn's >rotation as measured by Cassini-Huygens? Please see: >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4640641.stm >Pavel Saturn reaches perihelion every 29.45 years which it did on (July. 26, 2003). Its magnetosphere may be slightly more susceptible to disturbances due to its slightly smaller distance to the Sun or possible side-effect induced by radiation pressure acting on its Magnetosphere. Either way, it's bound to be an difficult scenario to model, since we have all come to learn how well these exaggerated whether forecasts can be even become in our own little neighborhood from one day to the next. John --- http://www.umich.edu/news/?Releases/2005/Feb05/r022405 A second, viewpoint paper called, "Saturn's Variable Magnetosphere," by Hansen and Gombosi, who is chair of the College of Engineering's department of Atmospheric, Oceanic and Space Sciences, reviews key findings from the other Cassini teams, including new information that contradicts data gathered 25 years ago, when the space craft Voyager passed by the planet. --- Dec. 17, 2002, http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/13dec_saturn.htm Earth and Saturn will have their closest encounter in nearly 30 years. 1.2 billion km from Earth is special because that's when Saturn and the sun are on opposite sides of the sky. Astronomers call this "opposition." When the sun sets, Saturn rises and it's up all night. Saturn at opposition is close to Earth (see the diagram below) and therefore bright. Below: Saturn is "at opposition" when it and the sun are on opposite sides of Earth. The size of Earth's orbit is exaggerated for clarity. Saturn is 9 1/2 times farther from the sun than Earth. Oppositions of Saturn come every 13 months or so. This one is the best in nearly 30 years because Saturn is also *near perihelion* (July. 26, 2003) - its closest approach to the sun. Adams explains: "Saturn's 30-year orbit is not a perfect circle. It has the shape of an ellipse with one side 6% closer to the sun than the other. When Saturn is closer to the sun it's also closer to Earth... and we get a great view." --- June 05, 2003 Saturn's Winds Slowing Down http://tinyurl.com/daeh3 It seems things are settling down on Saturn, at least when it comes to weather. A report published today in the journal Nature indicates that the speeds of winds on the gas giant have decreased by 42 percent over the past two decades. The changing orientation of the planet with respect to the sun prevents large sections of it from receiving radiation for long periods, and differential heating (and the resulting differences in pressure) creates wind. --- July. 26, 2003 http://www.space.com/spacewatch/saturn_guide_031205.html Saturn Closest to Sun Saturn takes 29.42 years to orbit the Sun. Its path is not quite circular, and it was just on July 26 that Saturn reached its closest point to the Sun on that orbit, called perihelion. --- December 31, 2003 Saturn Closest to Earth 748.3 million miles (1.2 billion kilometers) http://www.space.com/spacewatch/saturn_guide_031205.html On New Years Eve the Lord of the Rings will be closer to Earth and brighter than at any time in three decades. All month long skywatchers can enjoy Saturn at its finest. A similar opportunity won't come again for another 30 years. Correction: This article originally stated that on New Year's Eve 2003, Saturn would be closer to Earth than at any time since December 1973 and that it would not come closer to Earth again until January of 2034. However, even closer approaches will occur in December 2031 and December 2032. On Christmas Eve in 2032 Saturn will be about 1.7 million miles (2.7 million kilometers) closer to Earth than it was on New Year's Eve 2003. This article has been updated to reflect the correction. --- June 28, 2004 Saturn Rotation Slowing http://tinyurl.com/573k2 Based on radio astronomy observations conducted between April 29, 2003 and June 10, 2004 (well over a year .) by the Cassini Radio and Plasma Wave Science Instrument, NASA has just announced (June 28, 2004) a new period for Saturn's internal rotation: 10 hours, 45 minutes, 45 seconds (with a formal error of "plus or minus 36 seconds" .). -- January 13, 2005 Saturn Close to Earth 750 million miles away http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005/12jan_saturn.htm When the sun sets on Thursday, January 13th, a golden star will rise in the east. Soaring overhead at midnight, it will be up all night long, beautiful and eye-catching. That "star" is Saturn.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Aldrich From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 02:17:12 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:32:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Aldrich >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:38:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:14:16 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >>Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >>>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 15:16:51 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >>>Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >>>Also, on two occasions in 1950 U.S. military >>>aircraft intentionally dropped nuclear bombs and detonated then >>>in the air over Canada. In both of these examples, the Ministers >>>of National Defense at the time were not aware or fully briefed >>>of these incidents. > >>You do mean that the nuclear bombs were dropped because prior to >>an aircraft crash and did not have their plutonium core in them >>so they did not undergo thermonuclear explosion, right? >The U.S. B-50 bomber which dropped a nuclear bomb over the St. >Lawrence River a few miles down the river from Quebec City >originated in Goose Bay, Labrador, a U.S. Strategic Air Command >base. In 1950 Goose Bay had plenty of Mark 4 nuclear bombs just >like the ones the U.S. dropped over Canada that year. The >massive blasts were not nuclear but from the 5000 pounds of >chemical explosives which vapourized the nuclear bombs. >The nuclear bomb detonated off British Columbia earlier that >same year was dropped by a B-36 on an exercise bombing run >towards Russia from Carswell AFB in Texas (where Jesse Marcel >had brought the Roswell UFO crash debris a couple of years >earlier to General Roger Ramey who posed with it for >photographers). Since this happened during the Cold War years, >which in 1950 turned hot with the start of the war in Korea, it >makes little sense to me why in both incidents orders were given >to drop and destroy their expensive and scarce payload if it was >only a dummy bomb without a fissionable core. >The false U.S. cover stories at the time may have avoided >embarrassing the U.S. and Canadian governments (Canada was >supposedly free of all nuclear weapons) but I believe this >resulted in exposing Canadians to high levels of nuclear >fallout. Since Canada accepted the U.S. explanations without >question, no radiation monitoring tests were performed at the >time. >What does all this have to do with UFOs? If the truth about >these nuclear incidents could be kept secret from the public by >both the U.S. and Canadian governments until now, we can expect >to learn a lot more about UFOs/ETs and Canada's reversed >engineered flying saucer project from high level and respected >sources such as our past Minister of National Defense, Paul >Hellyer. >On page 58 of Randall Whitcomb's book 'Avro Aircraft & Cold War >Aviation' there is picture of a ackward looking John Frost >standing indoors next to a serious faced General Arthur Trudeau >who is wearing dark sunglasses. We all know from Lt. Col. Philip >Corso's book, 'The Day After Roswell', that this General was >with the U.S. Army's Foreign Technology branch that possessed >alien technology. John Frost was the chief engineer for the >secret 'Project Y' (and the much less secret Avrocar used to >distract public attention) and although he worked for A.V Roe >Canada in Malton (Toronto), his research was initially funded by >the U.S. Army. Although I have yet to confirm this, there is >reason to believe that after WWII John Frost met and worked with >the mysterious Dr. Meithe who designed and built flying saucers >for the Germans that were based on knowledge acquired from >crashed UFOs. >I was not there in 1950 when three nuclear bombs were lost (the >third during a plane crash in California) and like you, I only >rely on the documentation that is available to the public. Maybe >you or others on the list are better qualified to answer your >question with certainty. Nick, I notice that you previously casually mentioned: "Also, on two occasions in 1950 U.S. military aircraft intentionally dropped nuclear bombs and dentonated then in the air over Canada. In both of these examples, the Ministers of National Defense at the time were not aware or fully briefed of these incidents." Both of these were accidents. However, you failed to indicate, until challenged, that only the high explosives on the weapons was dentonated. In both cases the nuclear cores were not in place. It was not possible to have a nuclear denotation! As far as "intentional" destruction, yes, decisions made when confronted with an imminent crashes not premeditated several weeks before. I find you parsing of words and mis-representations of two accidents irresponsible! For those interested here are two partial lists of military nuclear accidents: http://www.atomicarchive.com/Almanac/Brokenarrows_static.shtml http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_nuclear_accidents Before I left German in 1991 I saw a new Nuclear Accident/Incident manual. Surprisingly, in this unclassified document were descriptions of a number US nuclear accidents were presented. The Special Weapons NCO who had 17 years experience in nuclear weapons at all levels of command noted that he knew about a number of the accidents described from classified information and briefings, some were new to him and some he knew about were not among the accidents described in the manual. No doubt there are more incidents which are still classified. As for stationing nuclear weapons in Canada, a listing of deployments by country is available in the recently declassified document: History of the Custody and Deployment of Nuclear Weapons: July 1945 through September 1977 Appendix B, titled "Chronology Deployment by Country 1951-1977." http://www.thebulletin.org/article.phpart_ofn=nd99norris_024#2 As far as blanket statements that the Canadian knew nothing about such and such, without thorough research such statements are made from ignorance and are non-starters. During my research into the JANAP 146/CIRVIS I read thousands of pages of air defense documents concerning detailed consultation between Canadian and US officials. Every little aspect of the proposed coordination was hashed out over and over again. Detailed basing agreements were worked out. I suspect that such agreements on nuclear basing were worked out. No documentation or research is presented to support the contention that Canadian were ignorant of nuclear weapons basing just sweeping statements. Fallout monitoring was done all over the world, and as I remember from my research in Canadian newspapers in Canada also! Any increase from a damaged weapon crashing on Canadian soil and releasing nuclear material would have shown up. I remember the feud over the BOMARC missile, the Conservative government in Canada didn't want it, Kennedy's pressure interferrance in the election was reflected in a US newspaper political cartoon showing Kennedy push a button in Washington and launching the PM being launched on a BOMARC missile. Another one showed Kennedy and Pearson wearing Kennedyques garb in a bar and holding a beer mug with the words BOMARC. Pearson is saying, "put a head on it," referring to accepting the nuclear warhead. Again, here was a public debate about stationing of nuclear weapons. I am certainly glad to knew that Paul Hellyer has confirmed that every word of Corso's book is true. So there is indeed a vast defense "star wars" network holding ET at bay. It is ashame that the Canadian defense ministry was so obtuse at the time that they could not have detected the building and supplying of same from their own intelligence network. I now know why I like ufology so much. Nowhere else could you
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:03:41 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:36:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Friedman >From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:52:39 -0500 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:43:23 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>Let's not forget that the Church Committee investigation of the >>CIA back in the 1970s clearly indicated that the CIA used many >>journalists. >>Klass would have been prime meat. Degree in Electrical >>Engineering, great cover at Av Week, able to attend technical >>conferences, see what our guys were saying that they shouldn't, >>and who was asking pointed questions. >All of which is suggestive but circumstantial. Although Mr. >Klass's qualifications may have been of interest to some agency >or other, it doesn't necessarily mean that there was actually a >connection, or that he was approached with a proposal, to be >accepted or rejected. >Furthermore, if I had been tasked, formally or informally, to >debunk UFOs, I would have assumed that there must be some >reality to the phenomenon. Of course. I didn't say the case has been made. Only that it is plausible. He bragged about friendship with the head of NSA. I have filed some FOIA requests now that privacy can't protect
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Irritating UFO Flare-Ups From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:39:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:39:38 -0500 Subject: Irritating UFO Flare-Ups Source: The Creswell Chronicle - Creswell, Oregon, USA http://www.thecreswellchronicle.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=3D756 November 11, 2005 Irritating UFO Flare-Ups By Scott Staats When trying to get a good night's sleep in the outdoors, there's nothing more irritating than the occasional flare up of UFOs. On a recent campout in southern Oregon, my wife and I had an interesting experience. We camped about six miles down a rough, bumpy dirt road near Hart Mountain in search of a boulder field full of Native American petroglyphs and pictographs. We found the site and set up camp. The writings depicted bighorn sheep, elk, geometric designs, human forms and even a few figures that resembled astronauts or aliens with space helmets and antennae. I guess these early artists had quite a creative mind as well as a creative hand. After walking through the rocks and seeing most of the writings, we had supper and got in the tent. A crescent moon descended over the western horizon and the high desert darkness set in. Somewhere in the distance a coyote howled (not really but it makes for a better story). At about that time, military aircraft began flying overhead from a nearby Air Force base, breaking the silence of the sacred grounds. Just as I was about to doze off, a flash of light lit up the tent. I looked out the tent window and saw a huge bright light in the sky just over the ridge. As the light slowly winked out, another appeared right next to it. As that one expired, another appeared farther down the ridge. It was like nothing I've ever seen before. I told my wife to look out the window. Seconds later, more lights appeared farther down the ridge and seemed to be coming closer. The white saucer-shaped light made us think of two possibilities =96 this was some kind of new craft the military was testing or it was a pod of UFOs. When you see something so real, yet so unreal, the mind congers up all kinds of strange and frightful possibilities. Maybe it was the ancients coming back to check on their sacred ground and they had discovered invaders in their territory. We had visions of little gray or green men appearing outside the tent and making us get in their ship. Who knows, maybe a cruise around the galaxy would be exciting, I thought. A worse possibility yet, a strange craft lands next to the tent and a military general and a handful of men in black come out and tell us that we "didn't see any of this." Then we are whisked off to some "black prison" in Turgurgestan. After seeing about a dozen of these lights, they vanished about the same time the military craft stopped flying. When the last light went behind the ridge, the area had an eerie glow. The night became dark and silent once again. I dozed off that night with visions of alien implants dancing in my head. I was in no mood to be poked, prodded or probed. I was never one to have nightlights nearby as I went to sleep and this was no exception. We lay there awake for quite a while just waiting for another bright light over the tent that never came =96 at least not that we can remember. At one time we wondered about getting in the car and heading out of there. Of course we wouldn't have time to take any of the camping gear with us. I imagined the slow, bumpy drive back the deserted road with the craft following right over us. We would never get away. So we decided to stay put and face whatever came our way. This, of course, would be difficult with my head buried in the sleeping bag. As the hours passed, I lay there and watched Orion and Mars rise over the rim and move slowly across the night sky. I must have gotten a little sleep since my next recollection was waking to the early dawn light. As we had breakfast, we wondered if we had really seen those lights. After driving up to the Hart Mountain refuge headquarters later that morning, I talked with a biologist there and mentioned all the military aircraft flying overhead last night. I asked in a nonchalant manner (so as not to come across as a loony from Roswell) if there were ever any weird lights seen in the sky. The biologist replied, "Oh yeah, the military plays war games and shoots flares at each other." (I later wondered if this "biologist" wasn't covering up the truth to protect the secrets of the mountain). In light of this new information that these lights were just military flares, we laughed out loud. Then it came across as a big letdown. Here we thought we were actually seeing real live UFOs and they turn out to be the result of some flyboys' war
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Dr. James McDonald's Fight For UFO Science From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:44:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:44:39 -0500 Subject: Dr. James McDonald's Fight For UFO Science Source: FATE Magazine - Lakeville, Minnesota - USA http://www.fatemag.com/2005_11art3.html November 2005 =09 Dr. James McDonald's Fight For UFO Science by Ann Druffel Dr. James E. McDonald was a bold and articulate scientist who publicly entered the UFO research field in the spring of 1966. He had studied UFO reports privately in his home town of Tucson, Arizona, from 1958 to early 1966, and had come to the conclusion that UFOs were "a serious question that was being neglected by science." In April 1966, McDonald put his career, scientific reputation, and personal life on the line for the cause of UFO research. He pursued the subject for the next five years, tapping his numerous high-level contacts in science, government, and the military. He made great strides among the scientific community, persuading many highly-placed authorities that UFOs must be treated as a serious problem. Respected Scientist In 1966 McDonald was at the peak of his scientific career. He was only 45, yet he was respected internationally as an eminent atmospheric physicist with impeccable credentials. He was chief physicist at the Institute of Atmospheric Physics (IAP) on the campus of the University of Arizona at Tucson, as well as a brilliant professor of meteorology. He was also a valued member of the U.S. Navy's Stormfury Project, and served on the National Academy of Sciences Panel for Weather and Climate Modification. His distinguished list of publications in top-rated, refereed scientific journals was second to none. Yet he still found time for his wife Betsy and their six children. McDonald had a sense of responsibility to the public that few scientists shared. He believed that science existed to serve the people, not to live in ivory towers, and he often spoke out boldly on scientific problems that impacted the public. He was an ecological pioneer, one of the first scientists to sound the alarm regarding damage to Earth's fragile ozone layer. McDonald was a cordial man who made friends easily among the scientifically-oriented lay researchers in UFO community. In turn, he was admired for his carefully-crafted hypothesis regarding UFOs: that some UFOs were physical, unidentified aeroforms from unknown sources. McDonald was interested in "occupant sightings" also, which involved unknown creatures viewed by reliable witnesses near landed UFOs, but realized that such sightings involved psychological aspects that he did not feel qualified to research. He reasoned that the scientific community must first be convinced of the existence of those unidentified aeroforms that resembled physical craft. Afterwards, well-funded interdisciplinary study could address what he called "these peripheral aspects." Something Even More Bizarre His prominence as an atmospheric physicist made him a logical source to receive UFO reports from a curious public. Puzzled witnesses found him to be a gracious, interested professional who did not disregard or laugh at their reports. Like all conscientious researchers, he found conventional explanations for most, but a certain residue of unexplained sightings puzzled and intrigued him. It was the unsolved one-half of one percent=97the true "unknowns"=97that he came to regard as the greatest scientific problem of his time. McDonald explored all possible hypotheses to explain the most puzzling sightings, and he came to the very tentative conclusion that the extraterrestrial hypothesis was the "least unsatisfactory hypothesis." Early in 1966, he presented eight possible hypotheses, including the suggestion that UFOs might be some type of unknown parapsychological phenomenon. This was an era when the very words "parapsychology" and "psychic phenomena" were anathema in the halls of science. McDonald's impeccable reputation protected him, but he took the advice of trusted colleagues and dropped the tentative parapsychological hypothesis. Later on, however, he stated in his public talks that, if UFOs were not extraterrestrial, they could be something "even more bizarre." Three Problems In the 1950s and '60s, objective UFO researchers faced three main problems: convincing policymakers that UFOs were worthy of serious, funded study; dealing with the wild tales of contactees that took attention away from serious research; and coping with the possibility of an official government coverup of UFO matters. With McDonald's help, documentation surfaced to prove that the Air Force's Project Blue Book, ostensibly engaged in studying UFO reports, was in fact a public relations scheme whose main purpose was to convince the public that UFOs were all misidentifications of conventional objects. Unlike most of his UFO colleagues, however, McDonald was never convinced that a true coverup existed, preferring to think of government inaction as a "grand foul-up." Nevertheless, he joined forces with his colleagues in attacking the problem on all three fronts. Working with contacts forged by the research organization NICAP (National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena), McDonald was instrumental in putting together the first and only public congressional hearing on the UFO problem. He testified personally with five other scientists, including J. Allen Hynek, Leo Sprinkle, and Carl Sagan. McDonald urged government funding of a national monitoring network of radar, satellite, and other advanced technology to determine beyond a shadow of a doubt whether unidentified aeroforms were invading earth's atmosphere. McDonald met the contactee problem head-on as well. Regarding contactees as "promoters," he ignored them whenever he could, but spoke out boldly against them when the situation warranted it. With unfailing logic, backed with engaging humor, he participated in a few public debates with those who told wild stories of encounters with blond-haired UFO occupants and exciting rides to far-off planets. McDonald slowly lured media attention away from the contactees and back onto objective researchers like himself. Science and Politics McDonald received funding for his conventional studies from the Office of Naval Research. Remarkably, he was briefly permitted to use one of his ONR contracts for UFO research. No working scientist up to that time (or since, to our knowledge) had received government funding to conduct UFO investigations. McDonald concentrated on cases that held out promise of empirical evidence: radar-visual cases, confirmed photo cases, and landing traces. However, his ONR contract was taken away in 1967 through the efforts of skeptics such as Philip J. Klass, who protested that the Navy and Department of Defense "was using public funds for fringe subjects." Klass, an arch-skeptic, hassled and disputed McDonald at every turn. Dr. Donald Menzel, a prominent Harvard astrophysicist and author of books debunking UFOs, was another powerful enemy. But McDonald continued on undaunted, with a minuscule, one-year NASA grant and his own private funds. Through his direct efforts, a UFO study group was formed in the prestigious American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA) and a major scientific UFO symposium was held by the renowned American Academy for the Advancement of Science (AAAS). Then the prestigious National Academy of Sciences (NAS) agreed to fund McDonald in a one-man study. For the first time, the scientific establishment seemed on the verge of accepting UFOs as a subject for serious study. The government UFO coverup seemed to be cracking. But on the very day his funding was to begin, the U.S. government announced a broad-based, half-million-dollar UFO study to be conducted by university teams, on which neither McDonald nor Hynek were asked to serve. The NAS abruptly withdrew its offer. The government study, led by eminent physicist Dr. Edward Condon, at first seemed to be a serious attempt to solve the UFO question. Very soon, however, it became evident that the Condon Committee was to be another debunking program. McDonald's public statements disclosing this made Condon another mortal enemy. Objective scientists on Condon's staff had done competent investigation into good UFO reports, and McDonald discovered that they had managed to slip 30 good "unidentified" cases into Condon's Report when it was published in 1969. He attempted to access the Committee's files, but Condon deceptively insisted that he had burned them. McDonald redoubled his efforts, determined to write a book about the false conclusions in the Condon Report and also to point out the importance of the 30 "unidentified" cases. Surveillance and Harassment =46rom 1968 through 1970, inexplicable occurrences vexed McDonald. On airline trips his luggage was frequently "lost" and returned later, rifled through. A briefcase containing sensitive reports by military UFO witnesses was stolen off an airliner under mysterious, unexplained circumstances. McDonald was followed around Tucson by curious unmarked cars, and other signs of silent surveillance puzzled him. His persistence and perseverance brought him through these trials, but he began to privately suspect, with good reason, that government agents might be monitoring him. He confided his concerns only to a few close friends. In September 1969, one of McDonald's daughters was raped and nearly murdered on the Harvard campus. The details of the attack were unexplained, and McDonald's repeated attempts to clarify them led to intense frustration. In December 1969, NICAP was destroyed as an effective UFO research organization through infiltration by the CIA and FBI. Through all these frustrations, McDonald continued to doubt that an official government coverup existed. Because of his own scientific honesty, he refused to believe that the United States would let a scientific question of such stunning proportions go unstudied. In his private journals, discovered by his wife, McDonald wrote: "If any competent scientists & engineers took a close look at UFO phenomenology they'd immediately know it's futile to figure it out with anything less than all the world's scientific resources=85. Hence, long since [they] would have brought in large blocs of hi caliber talent, and they'd break it out into the open scientific arena, since [science] --wouldn't stand for nationalistic secrecy on UFO's! And always I come back to =91Why not competent coverup?' =91Why No Talent?' [The] Only sensible answer is that authorities lost track of the whole problem years ago." Public Humiliation On March 2, 1971, the full force of government ridicule was abruptly brought against McDonald in the most public arena of all=97an open hearing before the House Appropriations Committee at which McDonald was testifying against government plans to build fleets of supersonic transports (SSTs). McDonald's research had convinced him and a few other scientists that fleets of SSTs would irreparably damage earth's ozone layer, leading to higher levels of skin cancer. Three of the Committee members, particularly Rep. Leon Conte, taunted him about his interest in UFOs, misrepresenting his research and provoking open laughter among attendees. This devastating public ridicule affected McDonald deeply; to some of his colleagues he seemed despondent. However, he quickly regained his equanimity and continued researching the ozone question, retaining the support of scientific peers. He even wrote an eloquent letter to Conte, endeavoring to persuade him to accept UFOs as a valid scientific problem. A few weeks before these hearings, McDonald had told two close colleagues in the UFO field that he was very close to learning the answer to UFOs, and was holding discussions at "the highest level" of government. He explained that he was not free to discuss the details, but would soon be able to reveal what he knew. McDonald's handwritten UFO journals contain notations up to March 17, 1971. Project Blue Book had been disbanded, and the best of its radar-visual UFO files had been declassified. McDonald had promptly traveled to Maxwell AFB in Alabama to study and copy them. He was amazed at the of information they contained: empirical evidence, the precious seeds of proof, which seemed to have been ignored by the government for 24 years. McDonald's Death McDonald departed the UFO field as suddenly as he had entered. In June 1971, this intrepid, tireless man died, apparently by his own hand, under circumstances that have never been fully explained. McDonald was still interviewing UFO witnesses shortly before his death, but it was evident that something had happened. He no longer confided to chosen colleagues that he was privy to high- level information about UFOs, and as a result he did not seem so sure of an imminent solution. Had he himself been the victim of a cruel government hoax? McDonald made his first suicide attempt on April 9, 1971, but it went awry, leaving him virtually blind. He fought his way back with the aid of his family and colleagues, and learned to cope with the affliction. He returned to work. But on June 12, he apparently tried suicide again and succeeded. Although his death was blamed on depression, McDonald remained rational up to the very end. He continued his work and left detailed plans outlining projected academic projects for a full year, including the writing of two books. UFO researchers have hypothesized that he was assassinated by covert forces in government. If this is true, his own disbelief in a government conspiracy may have helped bring about his tragic death. Though the physical UFO phenomenon continues to this day, an aura of ridicule still surrounds the subject. A new type of contactee abounds, and their stories of abductions, hybridizations, and secret underground bases are accepted without proof by a portion of the public and some prominent researchers. The sudden loss of McDonald, ufology's most credible exponent, made it untenable for the scientific community to continue giving it credence. It is still a scientific question crying out for solution. McDonald's Legacy McDonald's last request was that his voluminous UFO files be kept together until a proper repository could be located. Few researchers were given access to them until the 1990s, when Betsy McDonald authorized a biography of her late husband. Betsy worked closely with me on this project, granting access to heretofore unknown materials and clarifying questions that had puzzled the UFO field since 1971. McDonald's UFO journals, his personal notes on classic cases, and his lengthy letters to government, military, and scientific authorities show the man in all his brilliance. A collection of his talks, interviews with witnesses, and other recordings have survived the years in audiocassette form. These are presently being converted into CDs and archived in the University of Arizona Library at Tucson with the aid of a FUFOR grant. All of McDonald's UFO records are now in the Personal Collections Section of the University of Arizona Library at Tucson, available to the public. James McDonald's research and careful hypotheses are now part of ufological history. He is with us once again, and we can listen=97and learn. --- Ann Druffel is a freelance writer and researcher who lives in Pasadena, California. She is the author of Firestorm! Dr. James E. McDonald's Fight for UFO Science.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Maussan Sees Maya Link In UFOs From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:53:00 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:53:00 -0500 Subject: Maussan Sees Maya Link In UFOs Source: The Union-Tribune, San Diego, California http://tinyurl.com/bkskq November 10, 2005 =09 He Sees Maya Link In UFOs, Natural Disasters By Pablo Jaime Sainz Union-Tribune Katrina. Rita. Wilma. The earthquake in Pakistan. These devastating natural disasters are part of the change the world is undergoing, something the Maya foretold thousands of years ago. That's according to Jaime Maussan, a popular investigator of UFO phenomena in Mexico. What's more, he said, a Maya prophecy predicts radical changes for the year 2012 that will alter the history of the planet. Maussan will be at the California Center for the Arts, Escondido tomorrow to present a conference titled "La Profec=EDa," where he said he will explore how the Maya predicted the future through their knowledge of astronomy. "There are indications that the Maya had knowledge of this 5,000 years ago," he said, referring to the natural disasters. "The question is: Who told them?" He theorizes that extraterrestrials somehow contacted the Maya, who were able to develop an understanding of events to come. Someone looking at Maussan's resume would not have prophesied his involvement with UFOs. The Mexico native received a bachelor's degree in radio and television studies from Miami University in Ohio. In the 1970s and '80s, he was considered one of Mexico's leading investigative journalists, working in that country's version of "60 Minutes." In 1991, he became interested in the wave of UFO sightings Mexico experienced after that year's solar eclipse. Since then, the 52-year-old has become Mexico's most popular UFO investigator, thanks to his weekly television program, "Third Millennium," and interviews in popular variety shows like "Otro Rollo." Maussan said his interest in the Maya began after he investigated the mysterious designs that had been carved into fields in England, designs similar to Maya symbols. Why does he think the Maya can predict the future? The subject is a little complicated, because it is based upon codices and the Maya calendar, he explained from his home in Mexico City. The first Maya prophecy is about "no-time," a 20-year period called the "katum" =96 part of a great solar cycle 5,125 years long, he said. This "no-time" period stretches from 1992 to 2012. The Maya prophesied that at that time, ever more intense sunspots would appear on our stellar neighborhood and that, starting in 1992, humanity would enter a last great period of introspection. He said the natural disasters around the globe are delivering lessons about the power and limits humans have to control their world. "We have to prepare for the climactic changes that are on the way. San Diego and other coastal cities could be lost. We face the possibility of a catastrophe in this sense," he said. "We are in a period of very great and important change." So what's the use in knowing all of this? "We must show more loyalty to one another, more solidarity among ourselves." Not everyone in Mexico buys Maussan's message. Some plainly call him a fraud. Dino de Labra is a journalist and investigator, who hosts the Tijuana radio program "Cosmic Sphere," which deals with UFOs and paranormal phenomena. He said Maussan's work is nothing more than marketing. "He's only succeeding in titillating the audience. UFOs are a great business," said De Labra, whose program can be heard on both sides of the border. "When someone investigates these matters, it's not just about making money, but also nourishing people's spirituality, of awakening their conscience. Maussan shows only blurry videos. It's nothing that nourishes people's spirit. "Maussan is an entertainer," de Labra concludes. Pablo Lonnie Pacheco works for the Astronomical Society of the Alfa Planetarium in Monterrey, the most prominent such facility in northern Mexico. He has debated Maussan several times on television. Pacheco said what bothers him is that Maussan is creating a panic to make money. "He's a charlatan," he said. "He takes advantage of people's ignorance. He sees UFOs everywhere. Maussan lost a great deal of credibility last year, when he maintained that the asteroid Toutatis would crash into the Earth, Pacheco said. "Most people are ignorant about astronomy. Maussan presents it in a fun and creative way, and that's how he gets them hooked," said Pacheco, who has a column on the Astronomical Society's Web site titled "Las Maussandas," dedicated to refuting Maussan's statements. There is little dispute that Maussan is a draw. He virtually sold out four presentations he made Oct. 28 and 29 at Tijuana's Centro Cultural. Maussan's work is well known by investigators in the United States. Mel Podell, director of the Mutual UFO Network in San Diego, an organization that investigates sightings in the region, said he has followed Maussan's career for several years. "Maussan is a believable person, a serious person we can rely on," said Podell, calling Maussan Latin America's pre-eminent UFO researcher. "The work he is doing to keep people informed is good." Maussan himself said he leaves it up to the audience to decide what to believe. "I am just a journalist trying to find answers to these phenomena. I present the evidence. Each person must decide what they believe and what they cannot." Pablo Jaime Sainz is a contributor to the Union-Tribune's weekly
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:10:46 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 10:50:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Clark >From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:28:31 -0000 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:21:40 -0600 >>Subject: Who Was Philip J. Klass? Hi, Isaac, >While I agree with the thrust of your email, I thought it >(just about) worth mentioning that Bill Cooper claimed to have >seen documents demonstrating that Klass was a CIA agent. See the >following in William Cooper's "Behold a Pale Horse" (1991) at >pages 226, 228 (in Chapter 12) of the Light Technology softcover >edition: >"Philip Klass is an agent of the CIA. This was stated in the >documents I saw between 1970 and 1973. One of his jobs as an >aviation expert was to debunk everything to do with UFOs. All >military commanders were instructed to call him to gain >information on how to debunk and/or explain UFO contacts and/or >sightings to the public and/or the press if and when the need >arose..." >(As you may know, I tend to restrict my activities on this >List to providing references rather than opinions. However, I >can't refer to Bill Cooper's views without noting that there >are, um, some credibility issues in relation to a number of his >statements and allegations against numerous researchers). Anything that Bill Cooper - a sociopath and a pathological liar - ever claimed, you could bet good money that the opposite was true. He also publicly charged that I am a government agent - channeling space people once did the same, by the way) - and he went on to threaten me in the sort of incendiary prose in which he was wont to express himself. As the circumstances of his demise (for but one example) attest,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Psychiatry & UFOs [was: Are Abductees Certified From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 21:23:38 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 10:56:06 -0500 Subject: Psychiatry & UFOs [was: Are Abductees Certified >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:41:37 EST >Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:28:07 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? >>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 17:37:21 EST >>>Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? ><snip> >>For the record, James Forrestal was not "Dr." and Dr. David >>Jacobs is a historian and not a psychiatrist or psychologist . >Thanks for clearing that up Mr. Friedman. >With all your experience in Ufology, do you have a viewpoint on >psychiatry's role in it? Complicated question. Ben Simon was an outstanding psychiatrist when he was treating the Hills. I was very frustrated by his not asking a number of questions he could have asked if he knew anything about UFOs. However, I think he was very careful and certainly didn't put any pro-UFO words in their mouths. That he did the hypnosis sessions makes them much more solid - especially with his ability to induce amnesia after each session so they couldn't talk to each other about what was going on. I strongly suspect that psychiatrists would have been asked in the 1940s to guess what public reaction both in the USA and overseas would be to any announcements about alien visitors. I haven't seen any such report, but suspect that there is one... maybe a classifed portion of the Brookings report. I am reading Susan Clancy's really terrible book about abductions. She is of course a psychologist with so much ignorance and bias, that I think her ilk does a lot of harm. Over and over again she insists there are no aliens. Not good for mental health of the people nor for the rest of society. The selective choice of data is something to behold. Really propagandist. John Mack was, I believe, of considerable assistance to his patients. He did have trouble with the concept of actual interstellar travel and didn't know much about physical traces, etc., which might have helped his patients some. Bert Schwarz was a very special psychiatirst who had guts to look into many different aspects of the UFO problem. Surely an entirely negative attitude by ignorant professionals, like Clancy, is of no use in the search for truth, and will help inhibit efforts by other professionals. Who needs noisy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 23:35:43 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:00:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Balaskas >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:57:07 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:38:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 10:14:16 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >>>Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >>The U.S. B-50 bomber which dropped a nuclear bomb over the St. >>Lawrence River a few miles down the river from Quebec City >>originated in Goose Bay, Labrador, a U.S. Strategic Air Command >>base. In 1950 Goose Bay had plenty of Mark 4 nuclear bombs just >>like the ones the U.S. dropped over Canada that year. The >>massive blasts were not nuclear but from the 5000 pounds of >>chemical explosives which vapourized the nuclear bombs. >>The nuclear bomb detonated off British Columbia earlier that >>same year was dropped by a B-36 on an exercise bombing run >>towards Russia from Carswell AFB in Texas... >>Since this happened during the Cold War years, >>which in 1950 turned hot with the start of the war in Korea, it >>makes little sense to me why in both incidents orders were given >>to drop and destroy their expensive and scarce payload if it was >>only a dummy bomb without a fissionable core. >http://www.thebulletin.org/article.php?art_ofn=nd99norris_024 >http://www.portaec.net/library/peace/1950_bomber_crash_in_bc.html >Of course, anything we say is based on second (third or more) >hand data. Yes, according to Robert S. Norris, William M. Arkin and William Burr in 'Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists', November/December 1999, pages 26-35, the article in the first web site you give as a reference does say: "At the same time, another secret operation involved the transfer of non-nuclear components to Canada in July and August of 1950. SAC sought permission to move a number of Mark IV non- nuclear assemblies to Goose Bay, Labrador, as well as to deploy three bomber and two refueling squadrons to the north, closer to Soviet targets." But according to Duane Bratt, 'Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists', March/April 2002, pages 44-50, it goes much further: "Clearwater's second book, U.S. Nuclear Weapons in Canada, describes the nuclear weapons that the United States stored at its bases in Newfoundland and the Canadian arctic from 1950 until 1971: "The first known presence of nuclear weapons in Canada came in September 1950, when the [U.S. Air Force] stationed eleven Mk4 'Fat Man'-style atomic bombs at Goose Bay, Newfoundland."" "U.S. bombers equipped with nuclear weapons also made overflights of Canadian territory, a practice authorized as early as 1948. A major focus of U.S. Nuclear Weapons in Canada is command and control. Washington was not committed to consulting with Ottawa, let alone obtaining its consent to use nuclear weapons; its only obligation was to inform." Your "non-nuclear assemblies" became "eleven Mk4 'Fat Man'-style atomic bombs" that were stationed at Goose Bay, where the B-50 that dropped and detonated the nuclear bomb east of Quebec City originated from! Of course anything we read and believe will be based on second (third or more) hand information since we both were not there in 1950. >In both cases, the aircraft had engine trouble and the warheads >had no fissionable material in the warheads. >There are likely a few reasons for destroying the warhead >separately. The best I can think of is that it is better to >destroy the warhead if it contains secret information within the >hardware to make such devices. Also, maybe they thought if they >got rid of the heavy bomb weight, they could make it to safety. Thanks for playing the part of "Devil's Advocate" by giving the reasons you believe that there were no fissionable material in the two nuclear bombs dropped and detonated over Canada in 1950. Yes, both U.S. bombers had major mechanical problems and the pilots could not control their aircraft. What was the accepted practise if a crash landing was inevitable? The live bombs are dropped over a non-populated area and the crew parachutes to safety. This is was exactly what happened in the B.C. nuclear incident and would have also happened with the Quebec nuclear incident if the pilots did not manage to gain control of their bomber making a safe landing at an airport possible. The B-29 bomber carrying a nuclear bomb that crashed in California, also in 1950, was a landing accident so their nuclear bomb was not dropped and detonated like the two in Canada. Do not forget that is was Canada that mined, refined and shaped the uranium which it gave to the U.S. to build the nuclear bomb that they dropped on Hiroshima in 1945 that helped to end the war with Japan. Although Canada never build its own nuclear bombs (there is a rumour that one was indeed built by CARDE in Vacartier, Quebec which was ordered immediately disassembled by Prime Minister Mackenzie King after he learned of it), it was a nuclear power after WWII and the first nation to design and build a nuclear reactor for electrical power production. Blowing up a nuclear bomb over Canada so that American nuclear secrets did not fall into enemy hands does not make any sense, especially since Canada was a military allie and a friend of the U.S. during WWII and afterwards too by joining NATO in 1949 - one year before the U.S. nuked us twice! >>The false U.S. cover stories at the time may have avoided >>embarrassing the U.S. and Canadian governments (Canada was >>supposedly free of all nuclear weapons) but I believe this >>resulted in exposing Canadians to high levels of nuclear >>fallout. Since Canada accepted the U.S. explanations without >>question, no radiation monitoring tests were performed at the >>time. >I think back then, atomic testing fallout was very much >underemphasized. But any radiation from the crashes you describe >seems small. Yes, America did expose its troops and even its own citizens who were not informed of the risks of nuclear fallout from nuclear test within the U.S. but if the dangers of radioactive fallout was very much underemphasized, it was not because of ignorance. The U.S. knew all about the effects of "black rain" that fell and eventually killed the lucky Japanese who were not vaporized by the two nuclear bombs they dropped on two Japanese cities. One of the reasons why other nuclear powers eventually ceased above ground nuclear tests is because of the fallout. Until China finally stopped nuclear testing in the atmosphere in 1980, fallout from the Chinese nuclear explosions was reaching as far as the U.S.! If those two bombs dropped and detonated over Canada had nuclear cores, and there is no reason to believe otherwise based only on what the Americans told Canada (they covered-up and continued to lie about what crashed in Roswell in 1947, didn't they?), then Canadians were not informed and place in grave danger from the radioactive fallout. Radiation tests performed many years later did not detect any appreciable levels of radiation that could be directly attributed to the two nuclear bombs the U.S. dropped and detonated over Canada but neither is radioactive fallout present in the two Japanese cities that the U.S. dropped and detonated nuclear bombs over. >>What does all this have to do with UFOs? If the truth about >>these nuclear incidents could be kept secret from the public by >>both the U.S. and Canadian governments until now, we can expect >>to learn a lot more about UFOs/ETs and Canada's reversed >>engineered flying saucer project from high level and respected >>sources such as our past Minister of National Defense, Paul >>Hellyer. >It would be interesting to see what, if anything, is said about >UFOs in past declassified documents. But whether we can believe >anything they say is another issue. I suspect there is a connection between secret nuclear tests and UFOs sightings. Wilbert B. Smith who built a "reduced binding" instrument believed that nuclear explosions half way around the world could create reduced binding between atoms that would cause buildings to collapse and airplanes to fall out of the sky (Smith suspected that a few unexplained crashes in Canada, including Captain Mantell's F-51 aircraft after its close encounter with a UFO in 1948). >>We all know from Lt. Col. Philip >>Corso's book, 'The Day After Roswell', that this General was >>with the U.S. Army's Foreign Technology branch that possessed >>alien technology. ><snip> >>Although I have yet to confirm this, there is >>reason to believe that after WWII John Frost met and worked with >>the mysterious Dr. Meithe who designed and built flying saucers >>for the Germans that were based on knowledge acquired from >>crashed UFOs. >Good luck on your researches. I have little faith in these kind >of stories. Thanks James. I too would have little faith in such stories if it weren't for the fact that there are just too many separate and unrelated sources that suggest otherwise for me to dismiss it. >>I was not there in 1950 when three nuclear bombs were lost (the >>third during a plane crash in California) and like you, I only >>rely on the documentation that is available to the public. Maybe >>you or others on the list are better qualified to answer your >>question with certainty. >Its probably in archives somewhere for the taking. Somewhere I still have a newspaper clipping about the new facts recently made available to the public and the Quebec Government which shows that the U.S. lied about the two live nuclear bombs they dropped and detonated over Canada. If such documents were archived somewhere as they should, we would not have waited nearly half a century later to find out the truth. I wonder what new truths about UFOs will be revealed to us in the decades
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 00:37:38 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:07:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Balaskas >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:24:50 -0400 >Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:38:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics <snip> >>The U.S. B-50 bomber which dropped a nuclear bomb over the St. >>Lawrence River a few miles down the river from Quebec City >>originated in Goose Bay, Labrador, a U.S. Strategic Air Command >>base. In 1950 Goose Bay had plenty of Mark 4 nuclear bombs just >>like the ones the U.S. dropped over Canada that year. The >>massive blasts were not nuclear but from the 5000 pounds of >>chemical explosives which vapourized the nuclear bombs. >>The nuclear bomb detonated off British Columbia earlier that >>same year was dropped by a B-36 on an exercise bombing run >>towards Russia from Carswell AFB in Texas (where Jesse Marcel >>had brought the Roswell UFO crash debris a couple of years >>earlier to General Roger Ramey who posed with it for >>photographers). Since this happened during the Cold War years, >>which in 1950 turned hot with the start of the war in Korea, it >>makes little sense to me why in both incidents orders were given >>to drop and destroy their expensive and scarce payload if it was >>only a dummy bomb without a fissionable core. <snip> >Do you have some sources? I don't understand what you have said >about the nuclear bombs. Did they have nuclear cores or not? How >could there be fallout if there was no nuclear chain reaction? My original source, which I shared with everyone on the List and can still be found in the UFO UpDates Archives, is a newspaper article that appeared in the February 20, 2000 issue of Toronto's The Sunday Sun below. The comments in square brackets are mine. ----- Yanks Dropped Nuke Eggleton confrims 1950 incident over St. Lawrence River MONTREAL (CP) - Engine trouble forced an American pilot to detonate a disarmed nuclear bomb over the St. Lawrence River 50 years ago, Defense Minister Art Eggleton has admitted. At the time, Canadian government officials claimed the incident merely involved three coventional 225-kilogram bombs . [And you thought our friends south of the 49th only participated in coverups.] The pilot, flying a B-50 bomber from Goose Bay, Nfld., to the U.S. on Jan. 10, 1950, experienced engine trouble near Riviere-du-Loup in Quebec's Lower St. Lawrence region. Needing to shed some cargo, he looked 3,300 metres below [or 10,000 feet for our U.S. readers] and checked his radar to determine that no boats were sailing nearby, Eggleton said in a letter to Bloc Quebecois MP Paul Crete, obtained by Quebec City's Le Soleil. The pilot then followed orders and dropped a 2,000-kilogram Mark IV nuclear bomb, which contained explosives but lacked its nuclear component. [Or so we are told by the same previously truthful sources...] To avoid the danger of having active explosives fall into the river, the Mark IV was detonated about one kilometer from the ground, triggering a deafening blast that sent a thick cloud of yellowish smoke billowing into the air. Residents living near the shore said they felt the ground shake. Eggleton's letter came in response to Crete's request for the information. Because the bomb lacked a plutonium or uranium nucleus, its explosion did not endanger the environment, Eggleton's letter said. [Oh yeah, then what about all those giant fish in the St. Lawrence River which are the size of whales? Okay, so they are whales but with no radiation monitoring equipment like that we later had to monitor the radioactive dust fallout from Chinese above ground nuclear explosions carried by the wind into Canada, how would we be able to say anything about the damage to the environment or to Canadians with any certainty?]. The day after the blast, officials from the external affairs department were quoted in newspapers saying they would launch a full investigation because the U.S. was not authorized to transport active bombs over Canada. [So what did U.S. bomber pilots carry in their holds while frequently stopping off at Canadian bases during the Cold War if not active bombs? Could it be that the Liberals in power didn't want the truth be known that they were involved in a little Free Trade of their own - U.S. nylons and cigarettes for Canadian back bacon and whiskey?]. But three days after the blast, A.D.P. Heeney, undersecretary of state for external affairs, wrote that he hadn't filed a complaint with the U.S. ambassador because the Canadian military was aware of the U.S. operation. [Makes you wonder if something bigger than a little Mark IV nuclear bomb that accidently blew up which both countries decided was better to ignore. Maybe the boys top side may have something to say about this particular aircraft incident too...] ----- As you are very well aware, a nuclear chain reaction leading to an explosion is not the only way to create radioactive fallout. Large quantities of chemical explosions can be used to pulverize pieces of hard to obtain radioactive Uranium-235 or Plutonium (or easier to get radioactive Strontium-89 or Strontium-90) into fine particulate matter that can easily be carried by the wind. This is the principle behind the radiological bomb or a "poor man's atomic bomb". >I believe it may have been common practice to carry dummy >nuclear weapons since they were so heavy and could effect fuel >usage, maneuverability etc. B-29's had to have special bomb bays >because of the weight of the old nuclear weapons. It is easier and much cheaper to use skids or pallets of sandbags to properly load bombers so pilots can experience the different take-off and maneuverablity characteristics of flying a fully loaded bomber. The B-29 has an empty weight of about 69,000 lbs and a maximum overload capacity of 133,500. The heaviest of the two nuclear bombs dropped on Japan weighted only 10,300 lbs. >One was also dropped accidentally out of a plane in New Mexico. >No nuclear fallout. A B-52 went down with 4 as I recall... off >Spain. Jesse Marcel and General Ramey in the pictures we see >from J. Bond Johnson are with phony balloon wreckage not Roswell >crash debris. Unless the powerful chemical explosives surrounding the nuclear core or the self destruct explosives go off or there is a violent crash landing, like the B-52 that impacted the ground at Thule, Greenland in 1968 splitting open several of the nuclear bombs it wascarrying, there will be no radioactive fallout. Although there is still some doubt as to the origin of that alleged flying saucer wreckage photographed along with General Ramey, the contents of that telex in his hand could still prove
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 02:39:02 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:52:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Gates >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:24:50 -0400 >Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada <snip> >Nick, >Do you have some sources? I don't understand what you have said >about the nuclear bombs. Did they have nuclear cores or not? How >could there be fallout if there was no nuclear chain reaction? Stan, Listers, Stan is correct that there is no "fallout" as that word is defined... however what happens is the HE portion of the bomb goes off (as it did in the case of New Mexico and other cases) and the resulting explosion of conventional HE spreads some radioactive material in the area of the detonation... say several hundred feet max. As I recall from my Cold War history work, to get a chain reaction going you have to have a perfect explosion so to speak. If the explosive does not go off correctly, or one piece of the explosive material is missing you don't get a "nuclear explosion" but you get a rather large conventional explosion that fragments the U-238 or Plutonium and spreads it around the blast site.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Re: MIT Study Do Tinfoil Helmets Really Work? - From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:45:49 +0000 (GMT) Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:53:44 -0500 Subject: Re: MIT Study Do Tinfoil Helmets Really Work? - >Source: The National Business Review - Auckland, New Zealand >http://tinyurl.com/8ls2e >10-Nov-2005 >MIT Study: Do Tinfoil Helmets Really Work? >Tech humour, really, move along, nothing to see here >Engineers at the Massachussetts Institute of Technology have >published results: >http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/ >showing that tinfoil helmets, prized in many circles for an >assumed capacity to resist mind control rays from aliens and >governments, may actually amplify the controlling signals.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:05:29 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:56:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Lehmberg >From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> >Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:12:39 -0500 >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <snip> >I do find it a bit amusing that even in death, Klass has become >a central focus for ufologists and he can probably sit back and >smile knowing that he has them all up in arms. He wanted to be a >central figure in the debate, and somehow he still is. Certainly not an enviable focus, or a kindly one. Certainly not one that is respected by the remotely balanced or revered by any but the most conflicted pelicanistic juice-sucker. Certainly not a focus that any but the most corrosively sociopathic would ever appreciate for themselves... Verily... if old Uncle Phil took the barest intimation of pleasure from his diseased legacy that you suggest? He was a much sicker piece of human waste that even _I_ would have allowed for him. The only thing he could _ever_ be is an adequate example of how _exactly_not_ to be. Socially dissolute. Cognitively boxed. Logically corrupt. A liar, a cheat, and honor's thief. I'd expect no different in eulogy if I'd performed in a similar fashion, and mere death won't save Philip Klass from me. I don't take kindly to curses from beyond the grave, and won't. alienview.nul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Re: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 15:40:09 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:06:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? - Dickenson >From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 18:02:18 -0500 >Subject: Re: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? >>From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 14:01:54 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? >>>From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 07:04:28 -0500 >>>Subject: Saturn's Slowed Rotation? >>>Has anyone seen an explanation for the slowing of Saturn's >>>rotation as measured by Cassini-Huygens? Please see: >>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4640641.stm >>No, but most likely explanation is hinted at in the article >although not fully explored. I.e. that different latitudes and >different layers, of Saturn's (fluid) surface rotate at >different rates - as happens with the Sun. >Isn't seven minutes worth of momentum in so large a body a lot >of momentum to dump? >I wonder about the presence of a massive body nearby - clearly >an uninformed and unruly idea - but intriguing, to me at least. Hi Pavel, Hey, not so unruly maybe. It seems that could also be a reasonable explanation for several other oddities, like the cycles of extinctions in Earth's geological record; of anomalous precession among Solar System's planets (try "Synchronization of the Solar System" in Google); of the abrupt cut-off of our second "asteroid belt" the Kuiper Belt, which indicates "something" is sweeping / using that space; of indications that Sun might have a distant dancing partner, maybe a brown dwarf or small star, way beyond the Oort Cloud, our uncharted third "asteroid belt"; and maybe other discrepancies we haven't been told about. On the other hand, we don't know if observers have measured that rotation change at exactly the same latitude - because Saturn's fluid surface probably rotates at decreasing rates from equator to poles; or even if the surface regularly `boils away' and re- accretes throughout Saturn's `year' - because an outer `skin' would rotate slightly slower than an inner one. Which all just shows what we don't know. Cheers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:00:58 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:08:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Hatch >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:49:00 +0000 >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>Magonia's anti-empirical anti-scientific method is exemplified >>>by the recent case of Rev. Gill's "mothership" phraseology. >>>When Jerry Clark and Dave Rudiak investigated the actual >>>empirical data of "mothership" word usage to test the >>>Magonia theory that Gill got the phrase from reading >>>Adamski or other contactee literature, as well as testing >>>against Gill interview data, all this was brushed aside as >>>insufficient to falsify the theorized Adamski connection. >>>I pointed out that no other Adamski-ite words or contactee >>>concepts or phrases appeared in Gill's reporting, but to no >>>avail. >>My position on this affair is this: There is direct evidence >>that Gill did not get this phrase "from reading Adamski" (his >>self-report), and there is no direct evidence that Gill got this >>phrase from any other UFO-related source. Clark and Rudiak have >>proved that there was ample opportunity for him to have got the >>phrase from sources in the general non-UFO culture and it is >>possible that he did. >>However it is also true that it is possible for him to have >>heard it (via Normal Cruttwell) from a UFO source, because >>Cruttwell (his own self-report) was familiar with Adamski, had >>the literature, showed the Adamski photos to native witnesses in >>the area, was a close friend of Gill, and had discussed UFOs >>with him before the Boianai events. >Which is pretty much what I was saying. The really interesting thing about this thread was the desperation by the neo-ETHers to show that Gill was totally ignorant about anything to do with UFOs, lest he appear as a tainted witness. Hello John: Personally, I don't care if Fr. Gill actually picked up the term 'mothership' from flying saucers (his own denials of that notwithstanding) or from someplace else. I would expect a man of the cloth to have his antennas up for 'paranormal' doings, at least no surprises here if so. None of this takes away from his report of a highly unusual experience, one corroborated by numerous others and well documented now. I would not consider Gill a 'tainted witness' whether he read Adamski or not. Fact is, he clearly distanced himself from Adamski and company, and had no use for that stuff (Orthon the Venusian etc.) at all. He dismissed that as trash, as I do. What is material, is whether Fr. Gill and company saw something truly anomalous or not. I haven't made up my mind, maybe I never will. I only object to lengthy, unnecessary and tendentious side issues. Nevertheless, and just for grins, I would like a definition for 'neo-ETHer'. Is there some discernible dividing line between neo-ETHers and paleo-ETHers? I hope it isn't simply a matter of age [burp!]. I'm not getting any younger. BTW: I suspect the name Orthon came from Ortho, a line of bottled garden products, insecticides mainly, from Standard Oil of California (Chevron). I remember a bottle like that in the garage of this same house, half a century ago in the Adamski era. Combine that with the 'on' from nylon, orlon or electron and Adamski had a fine Venusian name.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:14:53 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:10:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Rudiak >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:43:23 -0400 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:47:20 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:28:31 -0000 >>>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? ><snip> >>I should think that someone in Mr. Klass's line of work would >>find it very difficult not to have some sort of official or >>unofficial contact with one government security service or >>another. >>That would not mean he had to be an 'agent' of one of them, >>although in an informal sense he might have been considered an >>agent of influence. >>How could anyone in his profession be completely independent >>of all official influences? There's nothing necessarily - or >>perhaps unusually - sinister about that. >>Ask Judith Miller. Judith Miller was either a willing participant or a patsy in White House disinformation schemes. In any case, she is now history, having just resigned (more likely pushed out) from the New York Times. >Let's not forget that the Church Committee investigation of >theCIA back in the 1970s clearly indicated that the CIA >used many journalists. >Klass would have been prime meat. Degree in Electrical >Engineering, great cover at Av Week, able to attend technical >conferences, see what our guys were saying that they >shouldn't, and who was asking pointed questions. As I recall, the Church Committee discovered that 500 journalists were on the CIA's payroll. That's a very good way for them to manipulate public opinion on all sorts of matters, not just UFOs. The infiltration of the CIA into the body politic probably extended well beyond the journalism community. Have a look at Roy Craig's "UFOs: An insider's view of the official quest for evidence." Just for the record, this is a 95% UFO debunking book, full of the usual snide comments about "UFO buffs," "UFO believers," "the will to believe," and so on. The following quote from Craig is in a chapter titled "Cloak and Dagger Work," in which Craig ridicules claims of a coverup, film confiscation, people being sworn to secrecy, etc. But in the middle of this, he lets this slip (p. 175): "The CIA, established by the National Security Act of 1947 with the stipulation that it would have no internal security functions, was, by 1951, secretly recruting scientists to 'take any job you want, with any university, corporation, or department--just report to us and collect a decent income.' Their recruiter said those words to me, in sworn secrecy, when I was about to receive a graduate degree from Iowa State University. The thought that some member of our project [Condon Commission] could be reporting secretly to the CIA was, therefore, in itself not irrational." Thus Craig was saying that the CIA was recruiting scientist spies and assets right out of college, when they were young and impressionable, and probably also poor. They also seemed to be guaranteeing them a good job plus extra money on the side. It was a classic Faustian bargain. They set you up for life, but they owned your soul in exchange. I have to wonder how many of these people who signed on later regreted it, realizing they were snitching on their colleagues and being used as front men for the CIA. The Church Committee I don't remember delving into this other aspect of CIA infiltration. But according to Craig's remarks, the academic and business communities would also have been full of CIA assets. Maybe when we see some academic debunking UFOs under the guise of science, we should be wondering if this is really an independent opinion, or another example of what the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:37:10 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:11:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rudiak >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:49:00 +0000 >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:19:06 -0000 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 05:44:48 EST >>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>My position on this affair is this: There is direct evidence >>that Gill did not get this phrase "from reading Adamski" (his >>self-report), and there is no direct evidence that Gill got this >>phrase from any other UFO-related source. Clark and Rudiak have >>proved that there was ample opportunity for him to have got the >>phrase from sources in the general non-UFO culture and it is >>possible that he did. >>However it is also true that it is possible for him to have >>heard it (via Normal Cruttwell) from a UFO source, because >>Cruttwell (his own self-report) was familiar with Adamski, had >>the literature, showed the Adamski photos to native witnesses in >>the area, was a close friend of Gill, and had discussed UFOs >>with him before the Boianai events. >Which is pretty much what I was saying. The really interesting >thing about this thread was the desperation by the neo-ETHers to >show that Gill was totally ignorant about anything to do with >UFOs, lest he appear as a tainted witness. The really interesting thing was the desperation with which the British neo-psychosocio (sociopsycho?) Ufologists (debunkers?) were trying to show tht Gill was a tainted witness, employing nonexistent statistics about 1950s British media UFO mania, and, of coure, their usual standby of mindreading.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 12 Re: Psychiatry & UFOs From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:36:22 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:17:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 21:23:38 -0400 >Subject: Psychiatry & UFOs [was: Are Abductees Certified Yet?] >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:41:37 EST >>Subject: Re: Are Abductees Certified Yet? <snip> >>With all your experience in Ufology, do you have a viewpoint on >>psychiatry's role in it? >Complicated question. Ben Simon was an outstanding >psychiatrist >when he was treating the Hills. I was very frustrated by his not >asking a number of questions he could have asked if he knew >anything about UFOs. However, I think he was very careful and >certainly didn't put any pro-UFO words in their mouths. That he >did the hypnosis sessions makes them much more solid - >especially with his ability to induce amnesia after each >session so they couldn't talk to each other about what was going >on. >I strongly suspect that psychiatrists would have been asked in >the 1940s to guess what public reaction both in the USA and >overseas would be to any announcements about alien visitors. I >haven't seen any such report, but suspect that there is one... >maybe a classifed portion of the Brookings report. >I am reading Susan Clancy's really terrible book about >abductions. She is of course a psychologist with so much >ignorance and bias, that I think her ilk does a lot of harm. >Over and over again she insists there are no aliens. Not good >for mental health of the people nor for the rest of society. The >selective choice of data is something to behold. Really >propagandist. >John Mack was, I believe, of considerable assistance to his >patients. He did have trouble with the concept of actual >interstellar travel and didn't know much about physical traces, >etc., which might have helped his patients some. >Bert Schwarz was a very special psychiatirst who had guts to >look into many different aspects of the UFO problem. >Surely an entirely negative attitude by ignorant professionals, >like Clancy, is of no use in the search for truth, and will help >inhibit efforts by other professionals. Who needs noisy >negativists? Thanks, again, for an on-the-money answer Mr. Friedman. Dr. Mack was indeed a rare one. I asked him once what sort of bedside manner one should have when dealing with abductees. He brightened up and made it a point of great importance to treat them with care and dignity. I have video of that spot. It was during the Roswell 50th Anniversary. One of our staff, Carol Deniker a hypnotherapist was able to ask him the technical side of hypnotherapy and he made sure we got what he meant. Dr. Simon indeed broke new ground and was caring. Glad you pointed him out. Last week everyone seemed to be pounding down on psychiatrists. When popular talk show host Alex Jones stomped the psychiatrists a mudhole he was echoing many talk show hosts and surprisingly to me, many, many journalists from print to tv laid into psychiatry too. The number one reason abductees, witnesses and whistleblowers I've interviewed and have on tap, won't testify is due to their fear of psychiatric retribution. I didn't know 'til interviewing them most had undergone some form of horrid treatment in their lives or knew someone who had after revealing UFO information. I've never had to undergo any psychiatric nor psychological evaluations nor treatment, so I was ignorant. I'd studied psychology in high school and college and while in college found something distasteful about it. Growing up near huge psychiatric centers where I saw on a daily basis patients so far gone they didn't have a chance without public assistance. I must know a dozen or more people alive today a few passed on who were there in Roswell during '47 and have tales to tell but their fear of psychiatrists makes gleaning any more info like pulling teeth. It's the same story for many UFO incidents I know could put an end to many mysteries. Yet that fear of padded rooms, electro-shock, lobotomies, drugs, sends them off the rails. Mind you, they'll fight to the last over prayer in schools or evolution vs. creationism but you mention UFOs and it's whispers and shudders. We really need to look at how many abductees, witnesses, whistleblowers and researchers have had to suffer threats of psychiatric institutionalism, institutionalism, mandatory at that. It appears to be a long, long term weapon and hindrance to acquiring raw data. In today's society, as it's been for 100 years I'd bet, people threaten one another with 'having someone committed' over any conflict. I've seen it happen on a regular basis and it's a mark, like the 'Scarlet Letter' on a person. I'm betting that with the present assault on the criminals and negativists within the psychiatric community welling up into the tidal wave I see forthcoming, someone is going to talk. Dr. Clancy's book is ridiculous, but since you're reading it like I am, don't you wonder how the heck she got her credentials? It's a pitiful attempt at investigation and science. How did she pass muster? Where are her colleagues who should be lambasting her for such sloppy work? It's about mind control for public control. Our society's actions are being determined by evaluations from one area of pseudo-science. Too easy for payoffs and political influence. It's the only power that can unseat a president or judge or governor. No checks and balances there. Harvard should be ashamed of itself. I still say psychiatry is the primary stumbling block and primary villain in the UFO arena. It's tough getting FOIA regarding data on psychiatry as many victims have privacy issues under medical care. I'm not saying all psychiatrists and psychologists are evil. Psychiatry and psychology are two different things, yet psychiatry over the past 100 years or more has been a Frankenstein's Monster for far too long. Any UFO researcher whether pro or con will be able to testify how their venturing into the UFO arena has gotten them glances and quips of 'Are you nuts?', 'People believing in aliens? They're crazy!'. You lose before you begin!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 13 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:30:53 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 20:35:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Lehmberg >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:14:53 -0800 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <snip> >Maybe when we see some academic debunking UFOs >under the guise of science, we should be wondering if this is >really an independent opinion, or another example of what the >1953 CIA's Robertson Panel recommended, using authority figures >to debunk UFOs. None dare call it 'conspiracy' and then risk some foul 'hypocrisy'? For the elected to preclude the best interests of electing is the very definition of criminal governance, isn't it? Is it not rank betrayal of the trust by _any_ other name?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 13 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:51:18 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 20:37:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Clark >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:37:10 -0800 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:49:00 +0000 >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism <snip> >The really interesting thing was the desperation with which the >British neo-psychosocio (sociopsycho?) Ufologists (debunkers?) >were trying to show tht Gill was a tainted witness, employing >nonexistent statistics about 1950s British media UFO mania, and, >of coure, their usual standby of mindreading. >Gill said he made up the word "mothership" on the spot. That's >as close as we are ever likely to get as to why he used the >term. Claiming he previously overheard the term and it was >buried deep in his subconscious is nothing but wild-ass >speculation at best, hence the desperate part. David, There is a lesson to be learned from pelicanists' frantic but failed effort to link Gill's use of "mothership" with UFO literature. You will recall their insistence, based on nothing except deeply held beliefs and instincts, that Gill - his own testimony to the contrary - could have gotten the phrase only from ufological jargon. When we demonstrated otherwise with actual evidence, they - here's a shock - didn't pause for one second's blink. We're back to the same stuck record on a pelicanist phonograph player long overdue for replacement. One need not claim psychic powers to have predicted that. And speaking of the psychic: The incident serves as an object lesson, underscoring the conclusion that so-called psychosocial ufology is not science (as Greg Sandow elegantly observed on this List on October 28, to thunderous pelicanist silence), it's just mind-reading. Maybe a better name for it would be clairvoyant ufology. And maybe it's time simply to let them continue to gaze into the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 13 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:56:21 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 20:40:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Hatch >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:10:46 -0600 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:28:31 -0000 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <snip> >>I can't refer to Bill Cooper's views without noting that there >>are, um, some credibility issues in relation to a number of his >>statements and allegations against numerous researchers). >Anything that Bill Cooper - a sociopath and a pathological liar >- ever claimed, you could bet good money that the opposite was >true. He also publicly charged that I am a government agent - >channeling space people once did the same, by the way) - and he >went on to threaten me in the sort of incendiary prose in which >he was wont to express himself. >As the circumstances of his demise (for but one example) >attest, Wild Bill did not just _threaten_ physical violence. I >was glad not to be there when the accusations spewed out of his >mouth. Hello Jerry, Isaac... Something strange here. I am still, still confusing Richard Doty with Bill Cooper. Why is that? Is it because I focus so much on acorns, that I can't tell a crow from a blue-jay any more? This is nothing new. Ever since 1980 I could never keep them straight. Is this just me (no surprise) or am I missing something? (no surprise there either). The only things I see in common are contemporary emergence (1980s) via the then upcoming computer Bulletin Board Services (BBS) and that they are or were both so full of shit. Please let me know if I missed anything. I'm sure I did.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 13 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Chichikov From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 13:41:23 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 20:43:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Chichikov >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:03:41 -0400 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:52:39 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>All of which is suggestive but circumstantial. Although Mr. >>Klass's qualifications may have been of interest to some agency >>or other, it doesn't necessarily mean that there was actually a >>connection, or that he was approached with a proposal, to be >>accepted or rejected. <snip> >Of course. I didn't say the case has been made. Only that it is >plausible. He bragged about friendship with the head of NSA. I >have filed some FOIA requests now that privacy can't protect >him. >Stan Friedman Stan, It seems to me that anyone who would brag publicly about friendship with a high-ranking intelligence official would be very poor agent material. Naturally, it would be highly significant if one could discover that a person had actually been tasked by an official organ to debunk UFOs. Why would such an organization go to the trouble of debunking popular mythology, unless it wasn't entirely mythological? I think it unlikely that an organization which used the services of someone as an agent would respond positively to a request for information, even if that agent were deceased. They would thereby put themselves out of business. Isn't it possible that Philip Klass was simply one of those people who are enraged by the very idea of UFOs, to the extent that they will pour scorn and contempt on the notion and everyone associated with it? Perhaps not gentlemanly to proceed in that way, it's true, but not conspiratorial. I am sorry to hear that you were possibly the object of a defamatory letter. Those are very ugly indeed, and should be condemned. At the same time, one should note that Philip Klass is now
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 13 Re: Psychiatry & UFOs - Watson From: Nigel Watson <nigelwatson1.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 18:57:53 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 20:46:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs - Watson >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:36:22 EST >Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs >I still say psychiatry is the primary stumbling block and >primary villain in the UFO arena. It's tough getting FOIA >regarding data on psychiatry as many victims have privacy issues >under medical care. >I'm not saying all psychiatrists and psychologists are evil. >Psychiatry and psychology are two different things, yet >psychiatry over the past 100 years or more has been a >Frankenstein's Monster for far too long. >Any UFO researcher whether pro or con will be able to testify >how their venturing into the UFO arena has gotten them glances >and quips of 'Are you nuts?', 'People believing in aliens? >They're crazy!'. >You lose before you begin! Hi, There is plenty of justification to criticise psychiatry but it is a profession that has helped countless thousands of disturbed people and protected society from people with dangerous behaviour patterns. I don't think ufologists, especially abduction researchers, give enough attention to the psychological or psychiatric condition of their subjects. If they provide a story that the researcher wants to hear that seems sufficient. The problem is that this can reinforce the beliefs of people who would be better treated
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 13 Re: MIT Study Do Tinfoil Helmets Really Work? - From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 18:28:31 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 20:47:22 -0500 Subject: Re: MIT Study Do Tinfoil Helmets Really Work? - >From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:45:49 +0000 (GMT) >Subject: Re: MIT Study Do Tinfoil Helmets Really Work? >>Engineers at the Massachussetts Institute of Technology have >>published results: >>http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/ >>showing that tinfoil helmets, prized in many circles for an >>assumed capacity to resist mind control rays from aliens and >>governments, may actually amplify the controlling signals. >What they omit to tell you is that a wire attached to the helmet >and then to a good earthing point stops nearly all RF as it acts >as a complete Faraday Cage so long as you have just small eye >holes or small heavily leaded glass view panel :-) If it's sleep or study problems, then surely available foil-backed wall-paper would be a more convenient RF preventor? Don't forget the ceiling. As Colin says, you'd have to ensure each roll is connected to a common "earth" bar or wire which in turn connects to a good earth point (maybe the mains supply earth - but not always (some power generators have a `floating' earth at center-tap of transformer); but you can test with an ohm-meter to your own earth-spike, which could be a metal waste-pipe while it's carrying water to sewers). People do say that you get a really sound night's sleep in such rooms, shielded either by metallics, or, in one case, by being deep underground. We military pals used to discuss this when we worked in shielded surroundings, and there is a *different* ambience in those places. It would be interesting if sleep-experiments verified this.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 13 Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:02:47 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 20:49:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Hatch >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 02:39:02 EST >Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:24:50 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada > ... however what happens is the HE portion of the bomb goes >off (as it did in the case of New Mexico and other cases) and >the resulting explosion of conventional HE spreads some >radioactive material in the area of the detonation... say >several hundred feet max. <snip> Hello Robert Please tell me where in Canada USA atomic weapons were detonated so I can avoid those places. I am allergic to fallout. Longidude Latitude and month/year of detonation would be most appreciated.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 14 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 19:49:28 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:33:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rogerson >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:37:10 -0800 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:49:00 +0000 >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:19:06 -0000 >>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 05:44:48 EST >>>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>My position on this affair is this: There is direct evidence >>>that Gill did not get this phrase "from reading Adamski" (his >>>self-report), and there is no direct evidence that Gill got this >>>phrase from any other UFO-related source. Clark and Rudiak have >>>proved that there was ample opportunity for him to have got the >>>phrase from sources in the general non-UFO culture and it is >>>possible that he did. >>>However it is also true that it is possible for him to have >>>heard it (via Normal Cruttwell) from a UFO source, because >>>Cruttwell (his own self-report) was familiar with Adamski, had >>>the literature, showed the Adamski photos to native witnesses in >>>the area, was a close friend of Gill, and had discussed UFOs >>>with him before the Boianai events. >>Which is pretty much what I was saying. The really interesting >>thing about this thread was the desperation by the neo-ETHers to >>show that Gill was totally ignorant about anything to do with >>UFOs, lest he appear as a tainted witness. >The really interesting thing was the desperation with which the >British neo-psychosocio (sociopsycho?) Ufologists (debunkers?) >were trying to show tht Gill was a tainted witness, employing >nonexistent statistics about 1950s British media UFO mania, and, >of coure, their usual standby of mindreading. >Gill said he made up the word "mothership" on the spot. That's >as close as we are ever likely to get as to why he used the >term. Claiming he previously overheard the term and it was >buried deep in his subconscious is nothing but wild-ass >speculation at best, hence the desperate part. Gill uses the term _mothership_ when writing to Crutwell, who is collecting reports on flying saucers for Flying Saucer Review. Crutwell is well aware of Adamski's story, and believes it. Hence he notes with one witness _I asked him to draw it, but being uneducated not being used to drawing, he could not mkae a go of it. He drew a large circle with a smaller one on top, but it was obvious that the perspective was too much for him. When I drew my interpretation he said at once _yes like that_. Afterwards I showed him a photograph of Adamski's craft. His eyes lit up and he said _yes like that_ _ (UFOs in Two Worlds " p25) Crutwell is not only familiar with the story of George Adamski, but is a correspondent for Flying Saucer Review. Forget that magazine as it was in its Charles Bowen heyday, in 1959/60 it was edited by Brinsley Le Poer Trench, and crammed full of wild contact stories, including those of Cyril Hoskins aka T. Lobsang Rampa. Its therefore most probable that Gill in using the term mothership is simply using a term he has picked up from Crutwell. Remember Crutwell is Gill's friend and boss in the tight little world of the European ex pat in New Guinea, not some casual acquaintance. As for Gill's own report, all one can say is that involves something seen for a sustained period of time, several days in succession, usually taken to be the hallmark of the astronomical misperception. Alternative explanations in terms of a boat, a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 14 Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 15:09:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:35:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? - Maccabee >From: Nigel Watson <nigelwatson1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 14:01:07 +0000 >Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 14:18:21 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Which UFO Movie Would You Druther? >>>There is a two-way interaction between film art and UFO >>>observations. Unfortunately ufologists have tended to ignore the >>>influence of the cinema on our perception of the UFO phenomenon >>>whilst filmmakers have largely ignored the wealth of material >>>within the UFO literature that could bring new insights into the >>>human condition onto the cinema screen. >>An obvious question in response to the sweeping assertions above: >>If science-fiction films can trigger vivid hallucinations which >>those who experience them mistake for actual real events, other >>kinds of films must also stimulate comparably vivid and >>realistic hallucination of non-UFO phenomena? What are they, >>and where is the evidence? >If we are totally sceptical about the existence of aliens and >UFOs visiting our planet then it is obvious that films on this >topic are interacting with our belief systems related to this >topic. >I think it is a mistake to think that a specific UFO film will >cause or immediately 'trigger' sightings or experiences, but >films can help shape or reinforce our perceptions of the 'real' >world. They are part of our wider experience of the world and >they can hit a chord with certain individuals who might be >overtly influenced by such films along with other media like UFO >books, websites and magazines. Hollywood cinema and series like >the X-Files have made a rich breeding ground for grooming would- >be abductees. >If I had to make a choice it seems more reasonable to me that >films are helping to trigger experiences that people mistake as >real rather accepting the 'evidence' supplied by abduction >believers. I recall that when Close Encounters started showing in the theaters, CUFOS got a call from some enterprising writer who asked how many sightings there were as a result of the opening of the movie. It seemed as if he/she had already written an article about the (presumed) unpsurge in new sightings and only needed a number. Hynek (or whoever it was at the Center who took the call) and responded that there hadn't been any upsurge in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 14 Re: Psychiatry & UFOs - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 17:27:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:36:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs - White >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:36:22 EST >Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs <snip> >Dr. Clancy's book is ridiculous, but since you're reading it >like I am, don't you wonder how the heck she got her >credentials? It's a pitiful attempt at investigation and >science. How did she pass muster? Where are her colleagues who >should be lambasting her for such sloppy work? A-G-E-N-D-A! http://www.shoestringradio.net/patriotradio.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 14 Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 10:38:07 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:39:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Bourdais >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 02:17:12 -0500 >Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:38:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics <snip> >I now know why I like ufology so much. Nowhere else could you >see so many people drink their bath water in public. It is >better than watch Pat Robertson! Jan, and List Thank you for your information on nuclear accidents. BTW, do you read the IUR and the MUFON UFO Journal? Do you have
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 14 Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 05:52:13 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:41:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Sparks >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 23:35:43 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:57:07 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >>Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada <snip> >Somewhere I still have a newspaper clipping about the new facts >recently made available to the public and the Quebec Government >which shows that the U.S. lied about the two live nuclear bombs >they dropped and detonated over Canada.... So we're supposed to believe _you_ that there were accidental or deliberate nuclear weapon detonations over Canada in 1950 when no one else even in the anti-nuclear community has ever heard of such a thing or believes such nonsense? I'm sorry but all this is rank uninformed nonsense. The Mark 4 nuclear bombs could not be stored with the nuclear cores. The cores were only inserted just before they were to be fully detonated in nuclear explosions, which only the President could authorize. Your scenario would require that the aircraft crews spend hours working to insert the nuclear cores instead of just dropping the non-nuclear bomb assemblies - even assuming they had the nuclear cores on board the aircraft which they could not have had and did not have, as would be evident if you researched the actual history instead of trying to spout off whatever drivel will support contactee weirdo Wilbert Smith and liar- hoaxer Corso. In effect you would have to have us believe that Truman authorized a US nuclear attack on Canada! Ridiculous. The AEC and the military were on bad terms in the late 40's and the AEC did not allow the military to have possession of the fissile cores, in order to maintain "civilian control" of nuclear weapons. This "civilian control" was progressively relaxed over the course of the Korean War with the AF
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 14 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 12:23:27 -0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:42:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Shough >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:37:10 -0800 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:49:00 +0000 >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:19:06 -0000 >>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 05:44:48 EST >>>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>My position on this affair is this: There is direct evidence >>>that Gill did not get this phrase "from reading Adamski" (his >>>self-report), and there is no direct evidence that Gill got >>>this phrase from any other UFO-related source. Clark and >>>Rudiak have proved that there was ample opportunity for >>>him to have got the phrase from sources in the general >>>non-UFO culture and it is possible that he did. >>>However it is also true that it is possible for him to have >>>heard it (via Normal Cruttwell) from a UFO source, because >>>Cruttwell (his own self-report) was familiar with Adamski, >>>had the literature, showed the Adamski photos to native >>>witnesses in the area, was a close friend of Gill, and had >>>discussed UFOs with him before the Boianai events. >>Which is pretty much what I was saying. The really interesting >>thing about this thread was the desperation by the neo-ETHers >>to show that Gill was totally ignorant about anything to do with >>UFOs, lest he appear as a tainted witness. >The really interesting thing was the desperation with which the >British neo-psychosocio (sociopsycho?) Ufologists (debunkers?) >were trying to show tht Gill was a tainted witness, employing >nonexistent statistics about 1950s British media UFO mania, >and, of coure, their usual standby of mindreading. The really interesting thing to me is critical scientifically- informed discussion of the actual witness statements, documents and circumstances of the incident. It's noticeable that John Rimmer seems irresistably drawn only to the soft issues like the "mother ship" affair, which has been proven to be the weakest of weak strands of evidence. Obviously a committed psychosocialist would be. And admittedly Boianai will always have some "hard" ambiguity about it on this level, so maybe this is fair enough. But the really _really_ interesting thing would be to focus some critical scientifically-informed attention on the several other provocative cases brought up by Brad - and not for the first time - in this thread. A debate on theory v. pragmatism seems likely to end up as another way of avoiding discussion of nitty- gritty evidence. Any thoughts, from any part of the ufological spectrum, on the status of some of these cases? Or is it the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 14 Re: Recent FUFOR Publications - Frison From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 11:02:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:44:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Recent FUFOR Publications - Frison >From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 05:34:56 -0500 >Subject: Recent FUFOR Publications >The Fund for UFO Research and the Center for UFO Studies are >discussing the concept of combining their sales and marketing >process, which has resulted in the lack of promotion for a >number of publications that were recently completed. Does this also have to do with an apparent lack of response to publication orders which are made to FUFOR? I ordered publications from FUFOR on the 18th and 20th of this past July (totalling $60.00 U.S. funds) and, to date, have received nothing. Nor have I received any word as to whether the items I ordered are out of stock, have been shipped, or are being shipped at some future point - or what.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 14 Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 11:46:00 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:46:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Gehrman >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:24:50 -0400 >Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:38:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics >>The nuclear bomb detonated off British Columbia earlier that >>same year was dropped by a B-36 on an exercise bombing run >>towards Russia from Carswell AFB in Texas (where Jesse Marcel >>had brought the Roswell UFO crash debris a couple of years >>earlier to General Roger Ramey who posed with it for >>photographers). Since this happened during the Cold War years, >>which in 1950 turned hot with the start of the war in Korea, it >>makes little sense to me why in both incidents orders were given >>to drop and destroy their expensive and scarce payload if it was >>only a dummy bomb without a fissionable core. <snip> >... Jesse Marcel and General Ramey in the pictures we see >from J. Bond Johnson are with phony balloon wreckage not Roswell >crash debris. Stan, Nick, List, There is some evidence that Bond only took two of the FW photos, and the others were taken by somebody else, perhaps an Army photographer. While much of the debris material in the FW Ramey/Marcel photos is from a balloon and radar target, scattered in the debris pile is some material that seems to be different and has not been identified.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 14 Magonia Supplement No. 59 From: John Harney <magonia.nul> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 20:54:16 -0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:47:51 -0500 Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 59 The html edition of Magonia Supplement No. 59 is now available at: http://magsupp.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/ms59.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 14 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 18:37:46 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:51:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Friedman >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:10:46 -0600 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Isaac Koi <isaackoi2.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 19:28:31 -0000 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:21:40 -0600 >>>Subject: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>While I agree with the thrust of your email, I thought it >>(just about) worth mentioning that Bill Cooper claimed to have >>seen documents demonstrating that Klass was a CIA agent. See the >>following in William Cooper's "Behold a Pale Horse" (1991) at >>pages 226, 228 (in Chapter 12) of the Light Technology softcover >>edition: >>"Philip Klass is an agent of the CIA. This was stated in the >>documents I saw between 1970 and 1973. One of his jobs as an >>aviation expert was to debunk everything to do with UFOs. All >>military commanders were instructed to call him to gain >>information on how to debunk and/or explain UFO contacts and/or >>sightings to the public and/or the press if and when the need >>arose..." >>(As you may know, I tend to restrict my activities on this >>List to providing references rather than opinions. However, I >>can't refer to Bill Cooper's views without noting that there >>are, um, some credibility issues in relation to a number of his >>statements and allegations against numerous researchers). >Anything that Bill Cooper - a sociopath and a pathological liar >- ever claimed, you could bet good money that the opposite was >true. He also publicly charged that I am a government agent - >channeling space people once did the same, by the way) - and he >went on to threaten me in the sort of incendiary prose in which >he was wont to express himself. >As the circumstances of his demise (for but one example) attest, >Wild Bill did not just _threaten_ physical violence. I was glad >not to be there when the accusations spewed out of his mouth. Jerry is being too kind about Cooper. He was one of the nastiest guys around. He also accused Bruce Maccabee and Budd Hopkins and myself of being CIA agents. He claimed that my FUFOR MJ-12 grant came from the CIA as well. It was actually raised by FUFOR for specific use for my MJ-12 project. The list is very long of infractions of deceny and accuracy. He claimed he was a briefing officer for CINCPAC, but couldn't even pick out the name of his 'boss' from a list I gave of such commanders. He had no college background and was a hydraulics mechanic in the USAF and then an E-6 in the navy... hardly briefing officer material.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 14 Re: New Articles Posted at Fatemag.com - Faccenda From: Joe Faccenda <Uforth.nul> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 20:23:55 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:54:00 -0500 Subject: Re: New Articles Posted at Fatemag.com - Faccenda >From: John Zupansic <webmaster.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 11 Nov. 2005 12:27:30 -0600 >Subject: New Articles Posted at Fatemag.com >Scientists brave (or foolhardy) enough to try and conduct >proper research on the nature of UFOs have been unable >to find satisfactory answers as to why UFOs seem to >cause time distortions. Past interpretations of Einstein's >physics leave little room for localised time anomalies, >unless influenced by a gravitational massive object >such as a black hole From my own close encounter of an anomalous craft amongst the several things I noticed was a dense black area under the craft. It was not a colour, nor was it any kind of shading. Far fetched as it may sound the analogy of a 'black hole' or my understanding as a gravitational anomaly that sucks in light, would be closer to an explanation than any that I have found to date. If in this particular craft the power source was gravitational, then there may be a clue as to the perceived nature of this type of power source. That the by product for want of a better word may be a mini black hole.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 14 Re: Psychiatry & UFOs - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:07:35 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:56:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs - Boone >From: Nigel Watson <nigelwatson1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 18:57:53 +0000 >Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:36:22 EST >>Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs ><snip> >There is plenty of justification to criticise psychiatry but it >is a profession that has helped countless thousands of >disturbed >people and protected society from people with dangerous >behaviour patterns. >I don't think ufologists, especially abduction researchers, give >enough attention to the psychological or psychiatric condition >of their subjects. If they provide a story that the researcher >wants to hear that seems sufficient. The problem is that this >can reinforce the beliefs of people who would be better treated >by trained professionals rather than by ufologists who want >another best seller. Nigel Watson, I'm glad you're around. Well said. Yet, the problem is people here in the States do not want to go to a psychiatrist. It's a stigma and is far too often used against them. That's the point of this thread. People, we're only talking UFO subjects here, who have either been institutionalized or threatened with it for their disclosures. It hasn't been a pretty picture over the past 50 years. If the psychiatric community had done it's job in the first place we wouldn't be sitting here debating. Those of us who know for a fact these people aren't crazy wonder what's taking the 'trained professionals' you've mentioned from coming to this conclusion. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude these people aren't crazy or suffering from sleep paralysis, so why hasn't this issue been addressed properly? That's the point. Don't blanket the ufologists with not caring or looking for a sensational story. Although I may get into a heated debate with some ufologists now and then, I can stand up and say watching them in action with the public I've found them far more patient and caring than any so called professionals who are hired and appointed and elected to service the same people but do not. So again, it would be fine 'if' there were objective, professional help for abductees but there isn't. Only abductees who meet one another and support one another. It's a 'disease' that is like a hidden malady, like 'The Scarlet Letter'. Bottom line is your 'trained professionals' had their chance, screwed up royally, and as the menace grows they're trying to cover their tracks with slipshod research, blanket declarations and the usual invalidations and threats therein. There are, I'll admit, more psychiatrists and psychologists who are standing up and if they don't fall under the spectre of retribution from their colleagues they'll make headway the right way.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 14 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Chichikov From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:52:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:57:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Chichikov >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:30:53 -0600 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >None dare call it 'conspiracy' and then risk some foul >'hypocrisy'? For the elected to preclude the best interests of >electing is the very definition of criminal governance, isn't >it? Is it not rank betrayal of the trust by _any_ other name? Suppose, for the sake of argument, that there is a genuine UFO phenomenon involving incursions into national territory which the national government, charged with defending that territory and the welfare of its citizens, is unable to prevent? Suppose no one in that government even understands precisely what the phenomenon represents. Suppose there is no entity that the government can lodge protests with, put pressure on, form alliances diplomatic and military against? Given that the primary purpose of government is to protect the welfare and security of the citizenry, what recourse does that government have? Should it make a public announcement that it has lost control of national territory to an unknown, and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 14 Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Aldrich From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 01:07:19 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:59:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Aldrich >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 02:39:02 EST >Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:24:50 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada ><snip> >>Nick, >>Do you have some sources? I don't understand what you have said >>about the nuclear bombs. Did they have nuclear cores or not? How >>could there be fallout if there was no nuclear chain reaction? >Stan, Listers, >Stan is correct that there is no "fallout" as that word is >defined... however what happens is the HE portion of the bomb >goes off (as it did in the case of New Mexico and other cases) >and the resulting explosion of conventional HE spreads some >radioactive material in the area of the detonation... say >several hundred feet max. >As I recall from my Cold War history work, to get a chain >reaction going you have to have a perfect explosion so to speak. >If the explosive does not go off correctly, or one piece of the >explosive material is missing you don't get a "nuclear >explosion" but you get a rather large conventional explosion >that fragments the U-238 or Plutonium and spreads it around the >blast site. At least every quarter while I was assigned to the 4th Missile Command in Korea we practiced for nuclear accident/incident control ususally deploying a large force to secure a practise damaged nuclear weapon in very difficult terrian. Included in these exercise was firefighting. It was expected that the nuclear material might be spead by a damage weapon "leaking" nuclear material, burning of high explosives and an explosion involving high explosive only. Nuclear weapons have to be specifically armed to allow a nuclear explosion. This involve a specific physical and/or electronic operation. Otherwise, you may be able to denotate the high explosives, but not start a nuclear reaction. This is why with a large number of accidents there has never been a nuclear explosion. During 1950, the two man rule had not been perfected. The Mark 4 weapons were deployed to a number of locations without their nuclear cores. This was to insure civilian control. The two weapons involved in the 1950 Canadian accidents did not have nuclear cores. As to why the high explosives were denotated, it was possibly a safety measure to make sure they were denotated in a populated area. The explosion may have caused a lot of noise, but the danger if the bomb were merely jetisoned might have been greater. However, I am just speculating here and have no knowledge for the detonations. A number of weapons systems have nuclear capabilities. On reason for the retention of the 8 inch howitzer in the US and allies arsenals for so long was its nuclear capablity. With the end of the Cold War, this capability and the 8 inch howitzer itself was scraped. (The 8 inch is very accurate for an artillery weapon, but it has slower reaction time, requires more manpower than other systems which can move faster. The replacement systems for 8 inch do not have as a big signature on the battle field.) However, nuclear weapons are not the subject of this list as interesting as they may be. Apparently, as a proxy for the agrument that about who in government knows what and what is being covered up UFOs, nuclear weapons in Canada are suspose to demonstrate something about governments involvement in the UFO problem. As such it does not work very well. Especially, when the information is based on a few newspaper reports. Many governments which maintained weapons which are/were nuclear capable or which allowed US basing of such weapons tried to keep
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 14 BS In The Desert From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:07:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:07:10 -0500 Subject: BS In The Desert Kevin Randle has posted his response to Nick Redfern's book, Body Snatchers In The Desert, at his Blog: http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2005/11/bs-in-desert.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 14 The Road To Marfa From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:15:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:15:01 -0500 Subject: The Road To Marfa Source: The Sunday Herald - Glasgow, Scotland http://www.sundayherald.com/52809 13 November 2005 Mystery Lights, Camera, Action For Scots Filmmakers By Senay Boztas - Arts Correspondent To some people, they are the flickering signals of friendly aliens; to others they are just explosions of swamp gas or headlights reflected from a busy highway. But for a team of award-winning Scottish film-makers, the mysterious Marfa Lights, far away in Texas, are the inspiration for an audience-grabbing new film. Garfield Kennedy, director of the Emmy-winning 9/11 documentary Why The Towers Fell, is set to produce a road movie revolving around this US mystery, which attracts as many tourists and theories as the Loch Ness monster. The Road To Marfa, written and directed by Robbie McCallum, is being seen as an example of how Scottish filmmakers can access other funding sources and distributors by working in international partnerships. Currently in development with Raymond Martin, of the Texan firm Raygun Films, it has already attracted interest from the leading Scottish actor Gary Lewis, and is set to start shooting next year in Texas and New Mexico. A coming-of-age film, it features two young friends, the "low-income slacker" Sam and "internet- rich kid" Toby, who go on a road trip to combat their 20- something apathy and end up travelling to the Marfa Lights. The first recorded sighting of the phenomenon =96 which is now a major tourist attraction =96 was in 1883. Scientists have suggested the illuminations are caused by electrostatic discharge, swamp gas, or moonlight shining on veins of mica, a natural, glassy substance. Others believe the Marfa Lights are supernatural. One woman claimed that her father was saved from a blizzard when the "curious observers" lit him to the shelter of a cave. Kennedy, whose documentary The Grandparents is nominated for two Scottish Baftas at the ceremony in the Radisson SAS Hotel in Glasgow tonight, said the new Poinds Sterling 500,000 film can attract a wide international audience. "The Marfa Lights are the Texan equivalent of the Loch Ness monster =96 which Scotland should also be exploiting regularly to make a profit," he said. "I am not a believer in the supernatural, but I think that the audience will come with us for the mystical ending." He said that the Gangs Of New York actor Gary Lewis is keen to take a part as a car dealer if his schedule can fit around filming, while they will be approaching actors including Meatloaf for another key role. Professor John Brown, Astronomer Royal for Scotland and a professor of physics and astronomy at Glasgow University, said: "I have not heard of the Marfa Lights, but there are quite a variety of light phenomena, from the effects of marsh gases to
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 14 Re: MIT Study Do Tinfoil Helmets Really Work? - From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:12:11 +0000 (GMT) Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:19:22 -0500 Subject: Re: MIT Study Do Tinfoil Helmets Really Work? - >From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 18:28:31 +0000 >Subject: Re: MIT Study Do Tinfoil Helmets Really Work? >>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:45:49 +0000 (GMT) >>Subject: Re: MIT Study Do Tinfoil Helmets Really Work? >>>Engineers at the Massachussetts Institute of Technology have >>>published results: >>>http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/ >>>showing that tinfoil helmets, prized in many circles for an >>>assumed capacity to resist mind control rays from aliens and >>>governments, may actually amplify the controlling signals. >>What they omit to tell you is that a wire attached to the >helmet >>and then to a good earthing point stops nearly all RF as it >acts >>as a complete Faraday Cage so long as you have just small eye >>holes or small heavily leaded glass view panel :-) >If it's sleep or study problems, then surely available >foil-backed wall-paper would be a more convenient RF >preventor? >Don't forget the ceiling. >As Colin says, you'd have to ensure each roll is connected to >a common "earth" bar or wire which in turn connects to a good >earth point (maybe the mains supply earth - but not always >(some power generators have a `floating' earth at center-tap of >transformer); but you can test with an ohm-meter to your own >earth-spike, which could be a metal waste-pipe while it's >carrying water to sewers). >People do say that you get a really sound night's sleep in >such rooms, shielded either by metallics, or, in one case, by being >deep underground. We military pals used to discuss this when >we worked in shielded surroundings, and there is a *different* >ambience in those places. >It would be interesting if sleep-experiments verified this. Hi Ray There is also the home cooker hood carbon extract filter pad material being used, which has a low resistance normally, with wire threaded through at approx one inch spacing made into a complete head cover avoiding suffocation and sweat problems associated with full head oven baking foil cover. This methodology can be used whilst out and about worn under or within the material of a hat coverring most the head, including ears, with largish electolytic capacitor (wire to positive with negative insulated, not connected). Good if you use a mobile phone, CB or portable radio transmitter etc and get the whities (feeling of head fuzzy, numb, tingly whitishness). To line a full room with aluminium cooking foil is quite expensive and there is a problem with sheilding tv and radio signals to adjoining properties. A good point, mind you, of it is that extra heat insulation is provided lowerring heating
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 14 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:31:11 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:21:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Hall >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:14:53 -0800 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >Maybe when we see some academic debunking UFOs >under the guise of science, we should be wondering if this is >really an independent opinion, or another example of what the >1953 CIA's Robertson Panel recommended, using authority figures >to debunk UFOs. <snip> Why must everything be a conspiracy? Haven't we seen plenty of examples in human affairs (including academia) of simple
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 15 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:25:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:27:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Ledger >From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 13:41:23 -0500 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:03:41 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:52:39 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>All of which is suggestive but circumstantial. Although >>>Mr. Klass's qualifications may have been of interest to >>>some agency or other, it doesn't necessarily mean that >>>there was actually a connection, or that he was approached >>>with a proposal, to be accepted or rejected. ><snip> >>Of course. I didn't say the case has been made. Only that it >>is plausible. He bragged about friendship with the head of >>NSA. I have filed some FOIA requests now that privacy can't >>protect him. >Stan, >It seems to me that anyone who would brag publicly about >friendship with a high-ranking intelligence official would be >very poor agent material. Pavel, Jumping in here: Who claims that Klass was an agent? Bird dog would be more likely that case. Klass was probably in it for the juice never mind the odd payoff in information and favors. >Naturally, it would be highly significant if one could >discover that a person had actually been tasked by an official >organ to debunk UFOs. Why would such an organization go to the >trouble of debunking popular mythology, unless it wasn't >entirely mythological? That's exactly the point. >I think it unlikely that an organization which used the >services of someone as an agent would respond positively to a >request for information, even if that agent were deceased. >They would thereby put themselves out of business. >Isn't it possible that Philip Klass was simply one of those >people who are enraged by the very idea of UFOs, to the extent >that they will pour scorn and contempt on the notion and >everyone associated with it? Perhaps not gentlemanly to proceed >in that way, it's true, but not conspiratorial. >I am sorry to hear that you were possibly the object of a >defamatory letter. Those are very ugly indeed, and should be >condemned. At the same time, one should note that Philip Klass >is now unable to defend himself. Nor were any of the people he defamed over the years. We've only learned of a few. How many more are out there?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 15 Re: Psychiatry & UFOs - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:20:57 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:30:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs - Ledger >From: Nigel Watson <nigelwatson1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 18:57:53 +0000 >Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:36:22 EST >>Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs >>I still say psychiatry is the primary stumbling block and >>primary villain in the UFO arena. It's tough getting FOIA >>regarding data on psychiatry as many victims have privacy >>issues under medical care. >>I'm not saying all psychiatrists and psychologists are evil. >>Psychiatry and psychology are two different things, yet >>psychiatry over the past 100 years or more has been a >>Frankenstein's Monster for far too long. >>Any UFO researcher whether pro or con will be able to >>testify how their venturing into the UFO arena has gotten >>them glances and quips of 'Are you nuts?', 'People believing >>in aliens? They're crazy!'. >>You lose before you begin! >There is plenty of justification to criticise psychiatry but >it is a profession that has helped countless thousands of >disturbed people and protected society from people with >dangerous behaviour patterns. >I don't think ufologists, especially abduction researchers, >give enough attention to the psychological or psychiatric >condition of their subjects. If they provide a story that the >researcher wants to hear that seems sufficient. The problem is >that this can reinforce the beliefs of people who would be >better treated by trained professionals rather than by >ufologists who want another best seller. This is the usual tripe that comes when one doesn't have an strong argument. First of all there are no trained professionals in this regard [evidence the Clancey book] certainly not the psychiatric profession, the world's answer to voodooism and Shamanism. There are plenty of best selling books out there, by- the-way, by psychiatrists who have written about cases that have nothing to do with abduction. Go besmirch them. And besides, because you don't have the ability to write a bestseller yourself [or any other book for that matter] is no reason to have this vindictive envy of those that do. Psychiatry has the unique ability to make it up as it goes along without providing proof of psychosis or even proof of any cure of a psychosis. They say someone is cured, who can dispute it? Here's an example. John Douglas, FBI, one of the first to recognize the value of documenting the the MOs and what drives the serial killer which is now the Behavioral Sciences section of the FBI relates this story in one of his books. It was a best seller by the way-so he's obviously not to be believed. He tried to advise a psychiatrist who was treating a serial killer [SK], imprisoned for his crimes of killing a half dozen people, that the SK would kill again if released. Douglas and his fellow agents ahd spent a couple of years trying to capture the SK. The good doctor said that the man was cured and even refused to listen to the SK's case history stating that it would taint his objectiveness while working with the SK. Imagine any real doctor turning down a patient's case history. The SK was released as cured and killed a woman within 8 hours of his release. To my mind that psychiatrist should have been charged with aiding and abetting, but you know that didn't happen. Many of these people train in these institutions, prisons and mental hospitals and like my registered nurse [charge nurse] sister , now retired after 35 years, says they rattle around these places making pronouncements and pontificating, killing time until they can get out and set up a private practice which has little overhead and no restraints but a great income. While the "psychs" are still "training", she noted, the nurses spend half their time running interference, trying to keep these doctors from screwing up their meds and killing the patients. At best, psychiatry is an infant science where it is now suspected that violent psychosis is a condition of brain chemistry aided and abetted by child abuse-but not always the latter. As usual there are those in the psychiatric field, as in other professions, who are truly committed to their profession and are eager to learn and advance the science in directions that will be of value. I have no problem with this side of the profession because they recognize their own limitations and that of the field. Those of you flaunting the psycho social aspect of the phenomenon are dealing with soft logic at best with no impirical data to back it up, and are buying into the idea that those who
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 15 Secrecy News -- 11/14/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:43:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:38:49 -0500 Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/14/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 106 November 14, 2005 ** EPA PROPOSES TO REDUCE TOXIC RELEASE REPORTING ** PANDEMIC INFLUENZA: DOMESTIC PREPAREDNESS EFFORTS (CRS) ** THE MOSAIC THEORY AND THE FOIA ** AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION ON INFORMATION SECURITY ** THE TUPAC SHAKUR RECORDS COLLECTION ACT ** NSA AFFIDAVIT ON UFO SECRECY (1980) EPA PROPOSES TO REDUCE TOXIC RELEASE REPORTING The Environmental Protection Agency would sharply curtail public reporting of releases of toxic chemicals into the environment under a proposal published in the Federal Register on October 4. The EPA's Toxic Release Inventory (TRI), which was created in the wake of the 1984 Bhopal disaster in India, is a landmark achievement of the community "right to know" movement that pressed for improved public reporting of toxic chemical hazards. It has functioned successfully for nearly two decades, leading to significant reductions in releases of toxic chemicals. But now EPA proposes to drastically reduce the data collected and reported in the Toxic Release Inventory, beginning with a move to eliminate the current annual reporting requirement in favor of reporting every other year. Environmentalists and open government advocates decry the proposal. The shift to every-other-year reporting alone "would cut the TRI program in half," said Sean Moulton of OMB Watch. Other changes to the threshold for reporting, he said, would mean that "pollution information from almost 4,000 facilities would essentially disappear." In its October 4 Federal Register notice, the EPA said these changes are needed "to reduce the reporting burden associated with TRI reporting requirements." Critical background on the EPA proposal may be found in this Action Alert from OMB Watch: http://www.ombwatch.org/article/articleview/3117/1/396 The web site of the EPA's Toxic Release Inventory Program is here: http://www.epa.gov/tri/ PANDEMIC INFLUENZA: DOMESTIC PREPAREDNESS EFFORTS (CRS) A new report from the Congressional Research Service discusses preparedness for pandemic influenza, the impact of previous pandemics, and the possibility of a pandemic caused by the H5N1 avian flu strain. "If a flu pandemic were to occur in the next several years, the U.S. response would be affected by the limited availability of a vaccine (the best preventive measure for flu), as well as by limited availability of certain drugs used to treat severe flu infections, and by the general lack of surge capacity within our healthcare system." At the direction of Congress, CRS does not make its reports directly available to the public. A copy of the new report was obtained by Secrecy News. See "Pandemic Influenza: Domestic Preparedness Efforts," November 10, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/RL33145.pdf THE MOSAIC THEORY AND THE FOIA A new law review article examines the increasing use of the "mosaic theory" by government agencies to circumvent the disclosure requirements of the Freedom of Information Act. The "mosaic theory" refers to the notion that a compilation of unclassified items of information may, in the aggregate, tend to disclose a sensitive or classified fact, and that restrictions on disclosure of the compilation of unclassified information may therefore be warranted. "After years of doctrinal stasis and practical anonymity, federal agencies began asserting the [mosaic] theory more aggressively after 9/11, thereby testing the limits of executive secrecy and of judicial deference," writes David E. Pozen in the forthcoming issue of the Yale Law Journal. "Though essentially valid, the mosaic theory has been applied in ways that are unfalsifiable, in tension with the text and purpose of FOIA, and susceptible to abuse and overbreadth." The author reviews the development of the mosaic theory and its application in recent Freedom of Information Act litigation, concluding with a call for increased judicial scrutiny of mosaic claims. See "The Mosaic Theory, National Security, and the Freedom of Information Act" by David E. Pozen, Yale Law Journal, Vol. 115, No. 3, 2005 (preprint): http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=820326 AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION ON INFORMATION SECURITY The U.S. Air Force has updated its information security program to reflect the provisions of the amended executive order on national security classification and other policy changes. The new Air Force Instruction "prescribes and explains how to manage and protect unclassified controlled information and classified information." See Air Force Instruction 31-401, "Information Security Program Management," 1 November 2005 (87 pages, 1.9 MB PDF): http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/usaf/afi31-401.pdf THE TUPAC SHAKUR RECORDS COLLECTION ACT A bill modeled on the John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act would require the U.S. National Archives to establish a "Tupac Amaru Shakur Records Collection." The bill, introduced by Rep. Cynthia McKinney, is based on the premise that "all Government records related to the life and death of Tupac Amaru Shakur should be preserved for historical and governmental purposes." Tupac Shakur "was a highly influential, best-selling American hip hop artist, considered by many to be one of the greatest and most legendary rappers of all time," according to an entry in Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia. He was killed in a drive-by shooting in Las Vegas in 1996. Rep. McKinney's bill, which has no co-sponsors and no identifiable support, is unlikely to become law. A copy of the "Tupac Amaru Shakur Records Collection Act of 2005," H.R. 4210, introduced November 2, 2005, is posted here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2005/hr4210.html NSA AFFIDAVIT ON UFO SECRECY (1980) A classified affidavit originally filed by the National Security Agency in a 1980 lawsuit to justify the withholding of records on unidentified flying objects has now been largely declassified. In response to the lawsuit filed by Citizens Against Unidentified Flying Objects Secrecy for records pertaining to UFO phenomena, the NSA sought to withhold numerous records. The majority of these records, explained NSA official Eugene F. Yeates in 1980 in his affidavit, were communications intelligence reports that "are the product of intercept operations directed against foreign government controlled communications systems within their territorial boundaries." "Revealing the contents of these reports would disclose the capability of NSA to target these government controlled communication systems." The affidavit, originally classified Top Secret Umbra, was released in redacted form on November 3 in response to a Freedom of Information Act request from researcher Michael Ravnitzky. See "In Camera Affidavit of Eugene F. Yeates," Citizens Against UFO Secrecy v. National Security Agency, October 9, 1980 (redacted), here: http://www.fas.org/irp/nsa/yeates-ufo.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 15 Re: MIT Study Do Tinfoil Helmets Really Work? - From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:30:52 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:40:35 -0500 Subject: Re: MIT Study Do Tinfoil Helmets Really Work? - >From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 18:28:31 +0000 >Subject: Re: MIT Study Do Tinfoil Helmets Really Work? >>From: Colin Stevenson <colsweb.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:45:49 +0000 (GMT) >>Subject: Re: MIT Study Do Tinfoil Helmets Really Work? One thing I've observed is how much better I feel when there is a power outage. I don't know if its the sounds from all the computers or buzzing florescent lights or EMFs, but you can feel the difference. Also, it seems some people are more able to detect EMF than others. One person I know can "feel" radar guns or CB radios. Alot of conflicting data about this sort of thing. Some people
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 15 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:56:55 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:42:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rogerson >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:51:18 -0600 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:37:10 -0800 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:49:00 +0000 >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism ><snip> >>The really interesting thing was the desperation with which the >>British neo-psychosocio (sociopsycho?) Ufologists (debunkers?) >>were trying to show tht Gill was a tainted witness, employing >>nonexistent statistics about 1950s British media UFO mania, and, >>of coure, their usual standby of mindreading. >>Gill said he made up the word "mothership" on the spot. That's >>as close as we are ever likely to get as to why he used the >>term. Claiming he previously overheard the term and it was >>buried deep in his subconscious is nothing but wild-ass >>speculation at best, hence the desperate part. >David, >There is a lesson to be learned from pelicanists' frantic but >failed effort to link Gill's use of "mothership" with UFO >literature. You will recall their insistence, based on nothing >except deeply held beliefs and instincts, that Gill - his own >testimony to the contrary - could have gotten the phrase only >from ufological jargon. When we demonstrated otherwise with >actual evidence, they - here's a shock - didn't pause for one >second's blink. We're back to the same stuck record on a >pelicanist phonograph player long overdue for replacement. One >need not claim psychic powers to have predicted that. And >speaking of the psychic: >The incident serves as an object lesson, underscoring the >conclusion that so-called psychosocial ufology is not science >(as Greg Sandow elegantly observed on this List on October 28, >to thunderous pelicanist silence), it's just mind-reading. Maybe >a better name for it would be clairvoyant ufology. >And maybe it's time simply to let them continue to gaze into the >crystal ball while the rest of us attend to the actual business >of research, investigation, and empirically based analysis. That's right Jerry, it was just a happy coincidence that Gill's close friend Norman Crutwell was a correspondent of contactee loving, Trench edited FSR, and goes around talking about and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 15 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:04:45 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:15:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rimmer >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:51:18 -0600 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:37:10 -0800 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>The really interesting thing was the desperation with which the >>British neo-psychosocio (sociopsycho?) Ufologists (debunkers?) >>were trying to show tht Gill was a tainted witness, employing >>nonexistent statistics about 1950s British media UFO mania, and, >>of coure, their usual standby of mindreading. So I suppose you have all sorts of 'empirical evidence' about the complete absence of UFO imagery and information in British life in the 1950s, do you? Well let's see it, or else give those of us who were actually alive and sentient in Britain in the 1950s some credit for being able to see, hear and read what was going on around us at the time. >>Gill said he made up the word "mothership" on the spot. That's >>as close as we are ever likely to get as to why he used the >>term. Claiming he previously overheard the term and it was >>buried deep in his subconscious is nothing but wild-ass >>speculation at best, hence the desperate part. So you don't think it's possible that Gill may have got the phrase from his colleague the Rev. Norman Crutwell, who was a contributor to Flying Saucer Review, and had Adamski's book which he showed to all and sundry? >David, >There is a lesson to be learned from pelicanists' frantic but >failed effort to link Gill's use of "mothership" with UFO >literature. You will recall their insistence, based on nothing >except deeply held beliefs and instincts, that Gill - his own >testimony to the contrary - could have gotten the phrase only >from ufological jargon. When we demonstrated otherwise with >actual evidence, they - here's a shock - didn't pause for one >second's blink. We're back to the same stuck record on a >pelicanist phonograph player long overdue for replacement. One >need not claim psychic powers to have predicted that. And >speaking of the psychic: It is largely irrelevant where Gill got the phrase 'mothership' from, and at this distance in time we will never know, no matter how many computer indexes of newspapers you go through. I just happen to think that via Crutwell or some of the many articles in the British popular press is more likely than via some piece of nautical jargon. What is interesting is the way in which the neo-ETHers try to deny the widespread knowledge of UFOs amongst the general public. Only by assuming that nobody except a small number of UFO Experts has any detailed knowledge of the phenomenon, can they maintain their belief in the 'uncontaminated witness' who speaks nothing but the objective truth. >The incident serves as an object lesson, underscoring the >conclusion that so-called psychosocial ufology is not science >(as Greg Sandow elegantly observed on this List on October 28, >to thunderous pelicanist silence), it's just mind-reading. Maybe >a better name for it would be clairvoyant ufology. Well, it can join all the thunderous Clarkian silences when you've neatly <snipped> any awkward question I've asked you on this List. >And maybe it's time simply to let them continue to gaze into the >crystal ball while the rest of us attend to the actual business >of research, investigation, and empirically based analysis.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 15 Re: Psychiatry & UFOs - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:33:28 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:16:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs - White >From: Nigel Watson <nigelwatson1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 18:57:53 +0000 >Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs <snip> >There is plenty of justification to criticise psychiatry but it >is a profession that has helped countless thousands of disturbed >people and protected society from people with dangerous >behaviour patterns. >I don't think ufologists, especially abduction researchers, give >enough attention to the psychological or psychiatric condition >of their subjects. If they provide a story that the researcher >wants to hear that seems sufficient. The problem is that this >can reinforce the beliefs of people who would be better treated >by trained professionals rather than by ufologists who want >another best seller. If ufologists want to bring psychiatrists into the mix, I suggest using the technique used by vigilante stalking/electronic harassment targets: First locate an experienced lawyer with a mental health defence sub-specialty. Ask the lawyer to name some 'straight shooters' in the psychiatric ranks in the applicable geographic area.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 15 Re: Maussan Sees Maya Link In UFOs - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 22:58:54 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:20:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Maussan Sees Maya Link In UFOs - Hall I asked my friend Dr. John B. Carlson, founder and director of the Institute of Archeoastronomy at the University of Maryland and an expert on Mayan history and culture (currently holding a prestigious position at the Library of Congress in same), to comment on the Maussan story for posting here. John is a very literate guy and obviously replied in some haste, so please forgive his typos. His meaning will be crystal clear. - Dick Hall ----- From: John B. Carlson <tlaloc.nul To: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul Subject: Re: FW: UFO UpDate: Maussan Sees Maya Link In UFOs Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:26:41 -0500 Dick, This is the worst sort of non-sense. This man is a charlatan and/or a crazy. A real "schizo-ceramic" if you take my meaning. A great cycle in the ancient Maya calendar will click over in 2012 CE, but this man's statements are part of a group of New Age crazies whose rantings have no relationship whatsoever to the either the ancient or ligitimate contemporary Maya. I could give you some of the historical background to this particular cult, because I have fololowed it along from its beginnings, but it is a crock of balone at best. There is no
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 15 Grant Cameron & A "Person Of Interest" From: Bob Soetebier <xxxx.nul> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 23:27:03 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:23:35 -0500 Subject: Grant Cameron & A "Person Of Interest" When reading the following, do keep in mind Linda Moulton Howe's interview: http://tinyurl.com/9zou8 "09/08/2005 - Canadian UFO Researcher Blocked by U. S. Homeland Security From Speaking at NUFOC Conference, Hollywood" with Grant Cameron http://www.presidentialufo.com ----- Doug Thompson has recently found out that he has been targeted as a "person of interest" via the use of a "national security letter" by the Bush Administration. Thompson notes that this has been done "under the far-reaching provisions of the USA Patriot Act." (For the full details, read Doug Thompson's November 7, 2005, Capitol Hill Blue article, "An enemy of the state", at): http://tinyurl.com/7bwqt For much more detail on the on-going use of "national security letters," you can read Barton Gellman's November 6, 2005, front- page "Washington Post" article, "The FBI's Secret Scrutiny - In Hunt for Terrorists, Bureau Examines Records of Ordinary Americans", via this URL: http://tinyurl.com/72rzj Doug Thompson notes that he has worked on Capitol Hill where he "served as press secretary for two Congressmen and then Chief of Staff for another before joining the House Committee on Science & Technology." And that "During his stint at the House Committee on Science and Technology, Thompson worked on transfer of what was then DARPANet from the Department of Defense to the National Science Foundation, the beginnings of the Internet. Sensing the coming growth of the Internet, he started a web hosting and design company in 1994 and that same year launched Capitol Hill Blue as the web's first political news site." Thompson was an award-winning journalist at "The Roanoke Times" in Roanoke, Virginia, and "The Telegraph" in Alton, Illinois. His "work has appeared in a number of publications, including Esquire, Life, Look, National Geographic, Sports Illustrated, Paris Match, AFP, the Associated Press and Reuters." (For more bio info on Doug Thompson, also see, 'Who is this Thompson guy anyway?' at):
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 15 Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 01:34:17 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:25:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada - Balaskas >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 02:17:12 -0500 >Subject: Re: Nuclear Bombs Over Canada >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 20:38:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: Paul Hellyer And The Politics Of Exopolitics <snip> >>The U.S. B-50 bomber which dropped a nuclear bomb over the St. >>Lawrence River a few miles down the river from Quebec City >>originated in Goose Bay, Labrador, a U.S. Strategic Air Command >>base. In 1950 Goose Bay had plenty of Mark 4 nuclear bombs just >>like the ones the U.S. dropped over Canada that year. The >>massive blasts were not nuclear but from the 5000 pounds of >>chemical explosives which vapourized the nuclear bombs. >>The nuclear bomb detonated off British Columbia earlier that >>same year was dropped by a B-36 on an exercise bombing run >>towards Russia from Carswell AFB in Texas (where Jesse Marcel >>had brought the Roswell UFO crash debris a couple of years >>earlier to General Roger Ramey who posed with it for >>photographers). Since this happened during the Cold War years, >>which in 1950 turned hot with the start of the war in Korea, it >>makes little sense to me why in both incidents orders were given >>to drop and destroy their expensive and scarce payload if it was >>only a dummy bomb without a fissionable core. >>The false U.S. cover stories at the time may have avoided >>embarrassing the U.S. and Canadian governments (Canada was >>supposedly free of all nuclear weapons) but I believe this >>resulted in exposing Canadians to high levels of nuclear >>fallout. Since Canada accepted the U.S. explanations without >>question, no radiation monitoring tests were performed at the >>time. >>What does all this have to do with UFOs? If the truth about >>these nuclear incidents could be kept secret from the public by >>both the U.S. and Canadian governments until now, we can expect >>to learn a lot more about UFOs/ETs and Canada's reversed >>engineered flying saucer project from high level and respected >>sources such as our past Minister of National Defense, Paul >>Hellyer. >>On page 58 of Randall Whitcomb's book 'Avro Aircraft & Cold War >>Aviation' there is picture of a ackward looking John Frost >>standing indoors next to a serious faced General Arthur Trudeau >>who is wearing dark sunglasses. We all know from Lt. Col. Philip >>Corso's book, 'The Day After Roswell', that this General was >>with the U.S. Army's Foreign Technology branch that possessed >>alien technology. John Frost was the chief engineer for the >>secret 'Project Y' (and the much less secret Avrocar used to >>distract public attention) and although he worked for A.V Roe >>Canada in Malton (Toronto), his research was initially funded by >>the U.S. Army. Although I have yet to confirm this, there is >>reason to believe that after WWII John Frost met and worked with >>the mysterious Dr. Meithe who designed and built flying saucers >>for the Germans that were based on knowledge acquired from >>crashed UFOs. >>I was not there in 1950 when three nuclear bombs were lost (the >>third during a plane crash in California) and like you, I only >>rely on the documentation that is available to the public. Maybe >>you or others on the list are better qualified to answer your >>question with certainty. <snip> >I notice that you previously casually mentioned: >"Also, on two occasions in 1950 U.S. military aircraft >intentionally dropped nuclear bombs and detonated them in the >air over Canada. In both of these examples, the Ministers of >National Defense at the time were not aware or fully briefed of >these incidents." >Both of these were accidents. However, you failed to indicate, >until challenged, that only the high explosives on the weapons >was dentonated. In both cases the nuclear cores were not in >place. Greetings Jan! I was briefly stating the simple known facts - two U.S. bombers intentionally (regretably yes, but not accidently) released two nuclear bombs and detonated them over Canadian territory in 1950. Why violently blow up such scarce and valuable payloads if these nuclear bombs were little more than shells without their nuclear cores? Was it so advanced nuclear technology would not fall into the hands of their neighbour to the north - a country no less advanced in nuclear technology than the U.S.? Why did the U.S. lie about these two serious nuclear incidents at the time which compelled Canada not to investigate further or initiate any radioactive fallout testing immediately following these nuclear incidents? The U.S. Strategic Air Command base in Goose Bay, Labrador (where nuclear bombs were deployed by the U.S. in 1950) and the SAC base at Carswell AFB in Texas (of UFO crash at Roswell fame and home of the 7th nuclear bomb wing) were where both U.S. bombers that dropped nuclear bombs over Canada originated from. Can you tell me Jan why you believe that SAC bombers which could deliver a lethal nuclear retaliatory blow to the USSR on very short notice back in the 1950s would be armed and flying with nuclear duds? >It was not possible to have a nuclear denotation! I never claimed or implied there were any nuclear detontations over Canada, just that Canadians may have been exposed to high levels of nuclear fallout or radioactive particulate matter after the two nuclear bombs were vaporized in the air by very powerful conventional explosions. >As far as "intentional" destruction, yes, decisions made when >confronted with an imminent crashes not premeditated several >weeks before. >I find you parsing of words and mis-representations of two >accidents irresponsible! Which parsing of words or mis-representations in what I wrote suggests to you that the two nuclear bombs dropped over Canada in 1950 were premeditated events? If you want to accuse someone with irresponsibility over these serious nuclear incidents it should be the actions of the U.S. - and the inactions of Canada - at the time. >For those interested here are two partial lists of military >nuclear accidents: >http://www.atomicarchive.com/Almanac/Brokenarrows_static.shtml >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_nuclear_accidents >Before I left German in 1991 I saw a new Nuclear >Accident/Incident manual. Surprisingly, in this unclassified >document were descriptions of a number US nuclear accidents were >presented. The Special Weapons NCO who had 17 years experience >in nuclear weapons at all levels of command noted that he knew >about a number of the accidents described from classified >information and briefings, some were new to him and some he knew >about were not among the accidents described in the manual. No >doubt there are more incidents which are still classified. <snip> While working for the Canadian Government (nuclear arms control and disarmament) as a seismologist from 1989 to 1992 I used to report on the nuclear tests I detected using the Yellowknife Array (originally a DARPA funded project). Working with others on old seismic data we detected dozens of unreported and previously unknown nuclear explosions that occurred either outside the territories of the known nuclear powers or at locations very different from their known nuclear test sites. Although the web sites you provided with the lists of nuclear accidents are far from complete, I agree with you that there are many more such incidents that are still unknown to the public and are likely to remain this way for a variety of important reasons. >Fallout monitoring was done all over the world, and as I >remember from my research in Canadian newspapers in Canada also! >Any increase from a damaged weapon crashing on Canadian soil and >releasing nuclear material would have shown up. Just because radioactive fallout monitoring was carried out all over the world, the public would not necessarily have been informed (eg. any radioactivity monitored after the massive explosion in San Francisco Bay in 1944; any radioactivity detected from the alleged nuclear explosion in the Baltic Sea off Germany in 1944; any wind blown radioactivity over Japan from Korea in 1945 not associated with the two nuclear explosions over Hiroshima and Nagasaki; secret or unannounced above ground nuclear testing in New Mexico and Nevada from 1945 and on; etc.). At Port Hope, Ontario where the nuclear core for the bomb that the U.S. dropped on Hiroshima was refined, it also once employeed people to paint radioactive radium on watches with paint brushes that they would sometimes lick to produce fine tips when applying the radium paint on the watch faces. Some areas there are still considered too radioactive for human activity or habitation... >I am certainly glad to knew that Paul Hellyer has confirmed that >every word of Corso's book is true. So there is indeed a vast >defense "star wars" network holding ET at bay. It is ashame that >the Canadian defense ministry was so obtuse at the time that >they could not have detected the building and supplying of same >from their own intelligence network. Actually, according to an unnamed U.S. General, Paul Hellyer was told that "every word is true AND MORE". Also, the respected Canadian journalist Peter Jennings who produced the recent ABC documentary on UFOs also helped to convince Hellyer that UFOs are real. I admire Hellyer for going public with his beliefs about the alien visitors and that the real reason for the expensive Star Wars program was never to defend against Soviet missiles (otherwise why was President Reagan willing to share this advanced U.S. technology with the leader of the "Evil Empire", President Gorbachev) but as a first line of defense against these alien visitors. Thanks to Hellyer's courage to speak out about this in public, maybe the "time has come to lift the veil of secrecy" and to have an "informed debate about a problem that doesn't officially exist." . >I now know why I like ufology so much. Nowhere else could you >see so many people drink their bath water in public. It is >better than watch Pat Robertson! After many of my friends and colleagues got to see and hear Paul Hellyer's recent talk about UFOs at the University of Toronto on TV Ontario this past weekend, their attitude about UFOs changed
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 15 Re: Recent FUFOR Publications - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:19:31 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:26:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Recent FUFOR Publications - Hall >From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> >To: UFO Updates List <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 11:02:03 -0400 >Subject: Re: Recent FUFOR Publications >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 05:34:56 -0500 >>Subject: Recent FUFOR Publications >>The Fund for UFO Research and the Center for UFO Studies are >>discussing the concept of combining their sales and marketing >>process, which has resulted in the lack of promotion for a >>number of publications that were recently completed. >Does this also have to do with an apparent lack of response to >publication orders which are made to FUFOR? I ordered >publications from FUFOR on the 18th and 20th of this past July >(totalling $60.00 U.S. funds) and, to date, have received >nothing. Nor have I received any word as to whether the items I >ordered are out of stock, have been shipped, or are being >shipped at some future point - or what. >Sure discourages me from making any future orders! Eugene, This is not exactly fair of you, since I privately explained to you how I accidentally misplaced those orders. You in fact
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 15 Corso & Hellyer Star Wars Debate From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 04:34:39 -1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:28:50 -0500 Subject: Corso & Hellyer Star Wars Debate Aloha List, Here's the introduction to a short article on the conflicting positions taken by Former Canadian Defense Minister Paul Hellyer, and Col Philip Corso on the merits of Space Weapons. Since Hellyer cites Corso as a reliable source on the extraterrestrial presence and objects to Canada's participation in the Strategic Defence Initiative, it's worth contrasting the positions of the two on the merits of targeting extraterrestrial visitors. In peace Michael Salla ----- Exopolitical Comment # 39 - Philip Corso and Paul Hellyer: Initiating Public Debate Over the Weaponization of Space & targetting of Extaterrestrial Vehicles Colonel Philip Corso has recently become a renewed focus of interest in the UFO community due to him being cited by a former Canadian Minister of Defense, Paul Hellyer, as a reliable source of UFO information. According to Hellyer, a retired US Air Force general confirmed Corso's claims about extraterrestrial technologies described in his book The Day After Roswell. Along with confirmation from other confidential 'official' sources, Hellyer had the confidence to come forward to declare the existence of a high level government conspiracy to hide the truth about the UFO phenomenon and the extraterrestrial presence. See: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-38.htm Given his former cabinet level position in one of the Group of Eight nations, Hellyer's claims of such a cover up are nothing short of breath taking. His public emergence at a symposium titled "Exopolitics Toronto" represents a powerful fissure in the so far monolithic silence by public officials over the preponderance of evidence supporting a "Cosmic Watergate". In his speech, Hellyer discussed the profound policy implications of developing space weapons to target extraterrestrial visitors. Hellyer was opposed to what he perceived to be a U.S. military policy of depicting extraterrestrials as "the enemy", promoting the weaponization of space, and using advanced 'particle beam' technologies to target extraterrestrial vehicles. He cited the lack of rigorous public debate over the merits of such a national security policy as a major objection to it being covertly put in place. Hellyer's approach, however, contrasts with Philip Corso's own stated position on the merit of weaponizing space to deal with what Corso believed to be a genuine 'national security threat' posed by extraterrestrials. This article will explore the reasons why Corso supported such a view of extraterrestrials as the enemy; whether extraterrestrials do genuinely pose a national security threat to the U.S. or other countries; and the best response to Hellyer's profound policy question concerning the weaponization of space and targeting of extraterrestrials. -----
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 15 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:58:02 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:30:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Maccabee >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:51:18 -0600 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:37:10 -0800 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>The really interesting thing was the desperation with which the >>British neo-psychosocio (sociopsycho?) Ufologists (debunkers?) >>were trying to show tht Gill was a tainted witness, employing >>nonexistent statistics about 1950s British media UFO mania, and, >>of coure, their usual standby of mindreading. >>Gill said he made up the word "mothership" on the spot. That's >>as close as we are ever likely to get as to why he used the >>term. Claiming he previously overheard the term and it was >>buried deep in his subconscious is nothing but wild-ass >>speculation at best, hence the desperate part. >David, >There is a lesson to be learned from pelicanists' frantic but >failed effort to link Gill's use of "mothership" with UFO >literature. You will recall their insistence, based on nothing >except deeply held beliefs and instincts, that Gill - his own >testimony to the contrary - could have gotten the phrase only >from ufological jargon. When we demonstrated otherwise with >actual evidence, they - here's a shock - didn't pause for one >second's blink. We're back to the same stuck record on a >pelicanist phonograph player long overdue for replacement. One >need not claim psychic powers to have predicted that. And
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 15 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:00:46 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:31:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Hall >From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:52:01 -0500 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:30:53 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>None dare call it 'conspiracy' and then risk some foul >>'hypocrisy'? For the elected to preclude the best interests of >>electing is the very definition of criminal governance, isn't >>it? Is it not rank betrayal of the trust by _any_ other name? >Suppose, for the sake of argument, that there is a genuine UFO >phenomenon involving incursions into national territory which >the national government, charged with defending that territory >and the welfare of its citizens, is unable to prevent? Suppose >no one in that government even understands precisely what the >phenomenon represents. Suppose there is no entity that the >government can lodge protests with, put pressure on, form >alliances diplomatic and military against? >Given that the primary purpose of government is to protect the >welfare and security of the citizenry, what recourse does that >government have? Should it make a public announcement that it >has lost control of national territory to an unknown, and >possibly unknowable force? That it is helpless, in this case? >What would be the purpose of such an announcement? >Pavel
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 15 Re: Psychiatry & UFOs - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:16:55 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:34:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs - Boone >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:20:57 -0400 >Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs >>From: Nigel Watson <nigelwatson1.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 18:57:53 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs >>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:36:22 EST >>>Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs >>>I still say psychiatry is the primary stumbling block and >>>primary villain in the UFO arena. It's tough getting FOIA >>>regarding data on psychiatry as many victims have privacy >>>issues under medical care. >>>I'm not saying all psychiatrists and psychologists are evil. >>>Psychiatry and psychology are two different things, yet >>>psychiatry over the past 100 years or more has been a >>>Frankenstein's Monster for far too long. >>>Any UFO researcher whether pro or con will be able to >>>testify how their venturing into the UFO arena has gotten >>>them glances and quips of 'Are you nuts?', 'People believing >>>in aliens? They're crazy!'. >>>You lose before you begin! >>There is plenty of justification to criticise psychiatry but >>it is a profession that has helped countless thousands of >>disturbed people and protected society from people with >>dangerous behaviour patterns. >>I don't think ufologists, especially abduction researchers, >>give enough attention to the psychological or psychiatric >>condition of their subjects. If they provide a story that the >>researcher wants to hear that seems sufficient. The problem >>is >>that this can reinforce the beliefs of people who would be >>better treated by trained professionals rather than by >>ufologists who want another best seller. >This is the usual tripe that comes when one doesn't have an >strong argument. First of all there are no trained professionals >in this regard [evidence the Clancey book] certainly not the >psychiatric profession, the world's answer to voodooism and >Shamanism. There are plenty of best selling books out there, >by- >the-way, by psychiatrists who have written about cases that >have >nothing to do with abduction. Go besmirch them. And besides, >because you don't have the ability to write a bestseller >yourself [or any other book for that matter] is no reason to >have this vindictive envy of those that do. >Psychiatry has the unique ability to make it up as it goes along >without providing proof of psychosis or even proof of any cure >of a psychosis. They say someone is cured, who can dispute >it? >Here's an example. >John Douglas, FBI, one of the first to recognize the value of >documenting the the MOs and what drives the serial killer which >is now the Behavioral Sciences section of the FBI relates this >story in one of his books. It was a best seller by the way-so >he's obviously not to be believed. He tried to advise a >psychiatrist who was treating a serial killer [SK], imprisoned >for his crimes of killing a half dozen people, that the SK would >kill again if released. Douglas and his fellow agents ahd spent >a couple of years trying to capture the SK. The good doctor >said >that the man was cured and even refused to listen to the SK's >case history stating that it would taint his objectiveness while >working with the SK. Imagine any real doctor turning down a >patient's case history. The SK was released as cured and killed >a woman within 8 hours of his release. >To my mind that psychiatrist should have been charged with >aiding and abetting, but you know that didn't happen. Many of >these people train in these institutions, prisons and mental >hospitals and like my registered nurse [charge nurse] sister , >now retired after 35 years, says they rattle around these places >making pronouncements and pontificating, killing time until they >can get out and set up a private practice which has little >overhead and no restraints but a great income. While the >"psychs" are still "training", she noted, the nurses spend half >their time running interference, trying to keep these doctors >from screwing up their meds and killing the patients. >At best, psychiatry is an infant science where it is now >suspected that violent psychosis is a condition of brain >chemistry aided and abetted by child abuse-but not always the >latter. >As usual there are those in the psychiatric field, as in other >professions, who are truly committed to their profession and >are >eager to learn and advance the science in directions that will >be of value. I have no problem with this side of the profession >because they recognize their own limitations and that of the >field. >Those of you flaunting the psycho social aspect of the >phenomenon are dealing with soft logic at best with no impirical >data to back it up, and are buying into the idea that those who >"experience" are less than as sane as you are. That is >nonsense. Right on, Don Ledger! You sure can tell it like it is! There are indeed pros in the fields of psychiatry and psychology who are trying to make a difference! Problem is they have major hurdles to overcome. There's a lot of money to be made in mandatory prescriptions and a profit margin too tempting for most to turn away from. Here's a trick for those who may have tried to read the DSM online. The psychiatric poobahs don't like it when their bible is quoted I guess so the only way to see the inside of the DSM is to go to amazon.com and type in the search field: "Desk Reference to the Diagnostic Criteria From DSM-IV-TR" You can then use the 'mouseover' search function to search the book itself. Type in 'sleep paralysis' and see what comes up. Quite interesting. You won't find references to 'UFO', 'extraterrestrial' though. Last night however, a psychiatrist I know who has been following ufology for a few years read a few articles about Dr. Clancy's book. She told me that the issue of abduction has been on the table for a long time. Problem was they can't up and name a disorder 'alien abduction disorder'. They would lose funding and face some bizarre fudiciary nonsense. She says that abductees who are suffering can't get insured treatment so blanketing things under 'sleep paralysis' is an attempt to slip abductees into a bona fide treatment routine where they can get help and have insurance pay for it. She says the danger is that with the huge numbers of people who would qualify it would be a bonanza for the pharmaceutical giants and 'quick draw' doctors who know they'll make a mint prescribing drugs. Just think, let's say a hush- hush abdcutee treatment calls for a $50 a month prescription. The patient doesn't have to mention UFOs or aliens whatsoever, just skulk into mental health office either by their own volition or escorted by the court officer and snag up a bottle per month. If it were just a million people per month that would be a fortune. With recent estimates of 3-4 million or higher who knows? It's a sneaky way to sweep a problem under the rug and make a fortune at it with no opposition. The pharmaceutical companies make another fortune with a sugar pill, the validation of abduction gets hidden, the money flows right back to the politicos and pseudo-sciences that neglected to handle this problem in the first place. I'd expect any day now that ufologists worth their salt will be asked to endorse this foolishness and considering the money involved I wouldn't be surprised. I knew something was screwy when years ago a bunch of psychiatrists had asked me to endorse their treatments of abductees and I couldn't figure out why they would ask me. I was live online at the old Parascope forum at the time and recalled the horror stories abductees had been telling me for years. I flat out said no and the guests cheered me on. It was the guests who ran the psychs out of the chat room and I knew something was up then because the guests never would agree on any one subject but if you mentioned psychiatry they were ready to get a rope and a horse and find the nearest tree. Now I've had the chance to study and realize I was wrong for a long time and right for a long time. Good thing I was around people who didn't lay down but stood up.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 15 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:55:13 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:36:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Clark >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:56:55 +0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:51:18 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:37:10 -0800 >>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>>Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:49:00 +0000 >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>The incident serves as an object lesson, underscoring the >>conclusion that so-called psychosocial ufology is not science >>(as Greg Sandow elegantly observed on this List on October 28, >>to thunderous pelicanist silence), it's just mind-reading. Maybe >>a better name for it would be clairvoyant ufology. >>And maybe it's time simply to let them continue to gaze into >>the crystal ball while the rest of us attend to the actual >>business of research, investigation, and empirically based >>analysis. >That's right Jerry, it was just a happy coincidence that Gill's >close friend Norman Crutwell was a correspondent of contactee >loving, Trench edited FSR, and goes around talking about and >showing pictures of _Adamski's craft_. Note also the whole idea >of the _ufonauts_ waving like tourists at the witnesses is part
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:34:42 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:11:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Lehmberg >From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:52:01 -0500 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:30:53 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>None dare call it 'conspiracy' and then risk some foul >>'hypocrisy'? For the elected to preclude the best interests of >>electing is the very definition of criminal governance, isn't >>it? Is it not rank betrayal of the trust by _any_ other name? >Suppose, for the sake of argument, And that's the way we would have to approach it because the realities of governments under discussion supercede how good we want to feel about the _fables_ we manufacture in their regard or how good we want to continue the feel about those fables. Argument's "sake" is all that remains. >that there is a genuine UFO >phenomenon involving incursions into national territory which >the national government, charged with defending that territory >and the welfare of its citizens, is unable to prevent? Our first charge of government then is to facilitate ignorance of UFOs or our own cowardice in their regard, continue to justify outmoded prerogatives of an equally outmoded unelected leadership which continues to exist, and in this fashion continue the ridicule and dismissive denial of the last 60 years for another 60? >Suppose >no one in that government even understands precisely what the >phenomenon represents. Then maybe we could start by electing a few less leaders with double digit IQs! These persons facilitate scurvy people haters like Philip Klass to hound intellectual worthies like James McDonald to suicide. Maybe no one in government understands the phenomenon because no one in government _wants_ or _tries_ to understand the phenomenon. I say to these persons... lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way. >Suppose there is no entity that the >government can lodge protests with, put pressure on, form >alliances diplomatic and military against? Such a government had better come up with a better approach than denial, then! Denial does not address a _reality_ that rank and file people can see in the skies over their heads... and this must only work to delegitimize that government to that self-same rank and file more than it is presently deligitimized. >Given that the primary purpose of government is to protect the >welfare and security of the citizenry, ...And a damn fine job they've done of that, otherwise, nes't ces pas? >what recourse does that >government have? Why, to look further than the length of shiny noses shoved into their own coin-purses, and actually live up to the charters they presently only pay lip-service to! >Should it make a public announcement that it >has lost control of national territory to an unknown, and >possibly unknowable force? You argue from the absurd, Sir. You assign a government that does not really exist the task of an overnight admission it shall not make, to a population already hazarded more by the government itself than it is by any alien, I suspect. Your question's moot. >That it is helpless, in this case? It's not helpless. It is derelict. >What would be the purpose of such an announcement? You presume that this fictional government operates in the best interests of the governed, Sir. I suspect that happens rarely enough to be very unusual. Indeed, the trust is betrayed often enough by our corporate government to preclude the need for trusting these secret keepers at all. Moreover, putting off the ufological, I suspect, is like putting off a trip to the dentist. Should we wait until a simple filling has been turned into a root canal?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Re: Psychiatry & UFOs - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:40:03 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:15:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs - Boone >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:33:28 -0500 >Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs >>From: Nigel Watson <nigelwatson1.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 18:57:53 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs ><snip> >>There is plenty of justification to criticise psychiatry but it >>is a profession that has helped countless thousands of disturbed >>people and protected society from people with dangerous >>behaviour patterns. >>I don't think ufologists, especially abduction researchers, give >>enough attention to the psychological or psychiatric condition >>of their subjects. If they provide a story that the researcher >>wants to hear that seems sufficient. The problem is that this >>can reinforce the beliefs of people who would be better treated >>by trained professionals rather than by ufologists who want >>another best seller. >If ufologists want to bring psychiatrists into the mix, I >suggest using the technique used by vigilante >stalking/electronic harassment targets: >First locate an experienced lawyer with a mental health defence >sub-specialty. Ask the lawyer to name some 'straight shooters' >in the psychiatric ranks in the applicable geographic area. >Much better chance of getting someone honest involved. Wow! Eleanor White, I wanna be on your side next time there's a gang fight! I'll bet folks in your neck of the woods no better than to rile you up! :) You hit the nail on the head there about lawyers. I'm starting to think a team of a psychiatrist and a lawyer is akin to a Sith Lord and his Apprentice ala the Star Wars movies. I'm betting you know far more about the psychiatric treatment of abductees and psychiatry in general and if you would, please tell it on the mountain! It is the #1 stumbling block in getting people to testify. To add to how sinister this area is, an old timer, a veteran of WWII that I've known for many years admitted to me his fear of disclosing what he knows of Roswell, UFOs, etc. is due to the fact he's quite well off, a land owner of reknown and there are 'young whippersnappers' who would use anything to try to get him removed via a 'psychological' disorder of some sort. What really got me was he said one of his own kids would do him in just to get control. He couldn't disown the man as his wife would have gone to pieces but he keeps his distance. Can you imagine your own kids trying to commit you to take over a business or estate? Makes 'Snidely Whiplash' look like a camp sing along coach. His story mirrors many, many, abductees and witnesses I know. It's horrible how some people will lurk like vultures to get someone listed as insane or mentally unstable in order to rip them off. There's a few folks back home in NY I aim to have a word with as now I know that they drove people I know into a state of instability and used their psych credentials to do so. It's become a powerful, powerful tool of control and can unseat a president, an officer, a CEO or annul a marriage. People used to talk freely of their religious beliefs and mythologies. I remember listening to tales of the 'wee folk' as a kid and other stories. Now if you do some opportunist will try to get you certified? I'm waiting for the day when Pat Robertson or any of the televangelists will be branded as 'unstable' and hauled off the air.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:49:27 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:17:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Lehmberg >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:00:46 +0000 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:52:01 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:30:53 -0600 >>>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>None dare call it 'conspiracy' and then risk some foul >>>'hypocrisy'? For the elected to preclude the best interests of >>>electing is the very definition of criminal governance, isn't >>>it? Is it not rank betrayal of the trust by _any_ other name? >>Suppose, for the sake of argument, that there is a genuine UFO >>phenomenon involving incursions into national territory which >>the national government, charged with defending that territory >>and the welfare of its citizens, is unable to prevent? Suppose >>no one in that government even understands precisely what the >>phenomenon represents. Suppose there is no entity that the >>government can lodge protests with, put pressure on, form >>alliances diplomatic and military against? >>Given that the primary purpose of government is to protect the >>welfare and security of the citizenry, what recourse does that >>government have? Should it make a public announcement that it >>has lost control of national territory to an unknown, and >>possibly unknowable force? That it is helpless, in this case? >>What would be the purpose of such an announcement? >Very good suppositions, and a possible (even likely) scenario. >If you have a tiger by the tail, don't let go. Which is fine, Sir, until you get hungry, thirsty, or injured... then "just holding on" is as unrealistic as it is unlikely. Besides the suppositions made were based on too many unwieldy assumptions.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:03:38 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:26:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Ledger >From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:52:01 -0500 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:30:53 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>None dare call it 'conspiracy' and then risk some foul >>'hypocrisy'? For the elected to preclude the best interests >>of electing is the very definition of criminal governance, >>isn't it? Is it not rank betrayal of the trust by _any_ >>other name? >Suppose, for the sake of argument, that there is a genuine UFO >phenomenon involving incursions into national territory which >the national government, charged with defending that >territory and the welfare of its citizens, is unable to >prevent? Suppose no one in that government even understands >precisely what the phenomenon represents. Suppose there is no >entity that the government can lodge protests with, put >pressure on, form alliances diplomatic and military against? >Given that the primary purpose of government is to protect the >welfare and security of the citizenry, what recourse does >that government have? Should it make a public announcement >that it has lost control of national territory to an unknown, >and possibly unknowable force? That it is helpless, in this >case? Pavel, Well put. This has been my take on it for some time. It explains the silly US government and military statements, parroted here in Canada and the UK-as if they were in lockstep-that this phenomenon "...poses no threat to national security...". If they admitted that it did pose a threat then they would have to be actively seen combating this threat not only physically with assets [men and machines] but budgetarily as well. And they would have to show results and suffer the usual publicity into the bargain. One can only imagine the pandemonium that would have ensued had they admitted to such a threat back in the day. The threat of course is not necessarily any threat [at least on the surface] to mankind but the loss of face by the authority
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:27:49 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:30:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Clark >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:04:45 +0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:51:18 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:37:10 -0800 >>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >So I suppose you have all sorts of 'empirical evidence' about >the complete absence of UFO imagery and information in British >life in the 1950s, do you? Well let's see it, or else give those >of us who were actually alive and sentient in Britain in the >1950s some credit for being able to see, hear and read what was >going on around us at the time. You just won't give up, will you, John? Having lost the argument, you throw a red herring into the rhetorical stream. Where would psychosocial ufology be without this species of fish? >>There is a lesson to be learned from pelicanists' frantic but >>failed effort to link Gill's use of "mothership" with UFO >>literature. You will recall their insistence, based on nothing >>except deeply held beliefs and instincts, that Gill - his own >>testimony to the contrary - could have gotten the phrase only >>from ufological jargon. When we demonstrated otherwise with >>actual evidence, they - here's a shock - didn't pause for one >>second's blink. We're back to the same stuck record on a >>pelicanist phonograph player long overdue for replacement. One >>need not claim psychic powers to have predicted that. And >>speaking of the psychic: >It is largely irrelevant where Gill got the phrase 'mothership' >from, Well, that's good to know, though rather late in the discussion to concede as much. You've wasted a whole lot of our time in the meantime. >What is interesting is the way in which the neo-ETHers try to >deny the widespread knowledge of UFOs amongst the general >public. Ah, guess what kind of fish this is! We'll let "neo-ETHers," whoever or whatever they're supposed to be, pass, out of boredom with this tired rhetorical dodge. Let us go on to another rhetorical trick: "knowledge of UFOs," left conveniently undefined. What is "knowledge of UFOs" as opposed to "awareness of UFOs"? Awareness of UFOs is, as we all know, widespread. Knowledge of UFOs, on the other hand, demands precise language and definition, as Greg Sandow - in the post John keeps not responding to - has already noted. In Gill's case, there was awareness of UFOs, but there was not much knowledge of them at the time of the sighting (and not a great deal later, according to Gill's testimony, which not even debunkers have challenged). In my daily life - I am sure this is true of all Listfolk - I run into people all the time with awareness of UFOs, but few outside ufology with actual knowledge of the arcana of the subject. Most of us would define "UFO knowledge" as education in the subject through reasonably extensive reading, thought, and exposure to the relevant information. "UFO awareness," on the other hand, is something else, comparable to, say, one's "awareness" of string theory or hiphop culture (or whatever) versus one's "knowledge" of it. As Greg Sandow has observed, claims that arcane knowledge and images from ufology pervade society are empirically testable through the methodologies of psychology and sociology, in which so-called psychosocial ufologists have never demonstrated much interest or appreciation, opting instead for the model of literary criticism. In the specific case of Father Gill, this hypothetical arcane knowledge of UFOs could not be demonstrated. It does not follow, of course, that _no_ UFO witness possesses arcane UFO knowledge; the lesson is that such knowledge needs to shown with actual evidence and that things about UFO witnesses, as with all human beings, are not so simple that they can be declared as true an ocean away and without real data bearing on the question. >>The incident serves as an object lesson, underscoring the >>conclusion that so-called psychosocial ufology is not science >>(as Greg Sandow elegantly observed on this List on October 28, >>to thunderous pelicanist silence), it's just mind-reading. Maybe >>a better name for it would be clairvoyant ufology. >Well, it can join all the thunderous Clarkian silences when >you've neatly <snipped>any awkward question I've asked you on >this List. Ah, this sorry and tedious dodge again, declared but never demonstrated. Besides being boring, it's hypocritical, coming as it does from someone who just can't seem to get around to addressing the deeply pertinent issues raised by Greg Sandow bearinag on the very legitimacy of so-called psychosocial ufology. For those who may have missed it, here once more is what Greg has to say: http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2005/oct/m28-031.shtml >>And maybe it's time simply to let them continue to gaze into the >>crystal ball while the rest of us attend to the actual business >>of research, investigation, and empirically based analysis. >Yes. But as you tell us, we'll all be dead and buried before >anyone is able to make any sense out of it. Thank you; you have eloquently outlined the difference between you and me. I believe that the answers to complex scientific questions are best addressed by trained scientists with full access to the resources (including extensive funding) that scientists need and which they employ in investigating phenomena. You believe, on the other hand, that the answers can be arrived at by guessing as you go along, your guesses all shaped by your antipathy to the very question being addressed. Temperamentally, I am patient. I hope to be alive when science decides to devote more than six months to UFO inquiry (at the end of which time it was left with a series of deeply puzzling, still unsolved, and highly suggestive cases; see, for example, the Condon report) and is allowed to do its work. The wheels of science turn slowly - after centuries science still doesn't understand ball lightning; biologists still debate the mechanisms of evolution (proof, according to creationist pelicanists, that evolution is a fiction), and so on and on and on and on and on - but eventually, in most cases, they reach their destination. Unlike pelicanism, science does not pretend to false certainty, which is one reason pelicanists have so little interest in it. Much more fun to make sweeping assertions about things they can't demonstrate, even if they're so simple as the origins and meanings of the term "mothership," denigrate all those who
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Re: Gill Sightings - Reason From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 17:40:47 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:32:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Gill Sightings - Reason >From: Manuel Borraz <maboay.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 10:57:29 +0100 >Subject: Re: Gill Sightings I don't have time to get into detailed correspondence over this, especially as the visual perception issues are really old stuff, so I'll try to make this quick: >- It is possible to establish more or less evident >correspondences between supposed UFOs and celestial bodies. >- But the more important thing is that_the_positions_of_the_ >two_main_UFOs_match_quite_well_the_positions_of_the_two_ >brightest_ (by far)_heavenly_bodies_ that could be observed, >that is, Venus and Jupiter. >Quite a "coincidence", isn't it? Well, not necessarily. These sorts of matches are of doubtful value unless one states explicitly in advance what the allowable error term is, and exactly what will and what won't be considered a match. Has anyone done this? (Cf the Marjorie Hill star map controversy.) >On the first sketch map, we find the "mother ship" in the NWW, >just where Venus was located. On the other hand, the "overhead >UFO" appears to be towards the SEE or SE on the first two >sketches (Jun. 26) and the SWW on the third one (Jun. 28), >matching reasonably well the positions of Jupiter, whose angular >elevation was high indeed (around 80=BA on Jun. 26, and 60=BA - >that's also "overhead" for most observers- on Jun. 28). (For many people, any elevation greater than 45 degrees can count as overhead.) The other problem here is that Gill himself had already identified the "UFO" as being in the direction of Venus. And that means, whether he was right in his identification of Venus or not, there are no degrees of freedom with regard to the location of the "UFO". So this correlation has no evidentiary value, being post hoc rather than ad hoc. >So the story repeats again with Jupiter. The "overhead UFO" >could be directly identified as Jupiter if it were not for being >described on Jun. 26 as a sort of disk having 5 panels of bright >"windows" on near edge and a total apparent size of 1 inch >across (at arm's length)... >Concerning the estimates of size, we must consider the >following. Remember that these estimates have been one of the >"hard" arguments against an astronomical background for the >sightings. >We are said that, in the seventies, Father Gill estimated the >object with waving occupants to have the width of five moons >lined up end-to-end. This amounts to approx. 1 inch at arm's >length. But in 1959 Gill's notes, this UFO with the "men" >onboard was "full hand-span at arm's length (8 inches) when >U.F.O's at closest", while the "overhead UFO" cited above had an >apparent size of 1 inch across and the smaller objects had 1/2 >inches across. The question we have to ask here is, did Gill arive at this latter estimate by holding his full hand-span out at arm's length, or did he simply guess what a full hand-span held out at arm's length would look like? I think we can safely asssume the latter, because this kind of error is extremely common and I've referred to it on previous occasions. In fact it's a direct result of size constancy. The problem, as I've pointed out before, is that the brain is not set up to derive estimates of angular diameter from estimates of size, but to do exactly the opposite. If you want to get a reliable estimate of angular diameter, then you have to get the observer to estimate size and distance and calculate the ratio between them, or you need to get the observer to compare the unidentified object to some other object which is currently visible. The error here is due to the mode of questioning, not the unreliability of the observer. >There is still a third estimation of angular size. The next day >to the sighting, Gill worked out the dimensions of the big UFO >assuming the figures on it were our size. In daylight, he got >four men to stand away until they reached about the size that >the "men" in the UFO appeared to be. Finally, he concluded that >the object was about 450 feet away (when closer) and some 35 >feet across. Thank you - this is something else I didn't know. And after this topic came up on Updates I was looking for precisely this information. But I couldn't find estimates of distance, only altitude. I think this pretty much rules out Venus. >Though not stated by Gill, this implies an angular size of >4.45=BA, that is, almost 9 moon's widths or 1.75 inches at arm's >length. Note the differing values. All in all, I see no reason >to be confident of Gill's estimates of angular size. Well, you're talking about an error factor of less than 2. You obviously think this is pretty shocking, but we have to remember the visual part of the brain is a pattern-recognition system, not a laser ranger-finder. And I don't think an error factor of less than 2 is at all bad, particularly when there is a 15+ year gap between the estimates. For a 35' diameter object, that corresponds to a range of distances between 150 to 270 yds, for an object seen at night, with no peripheral distance cues. That's the difference between somewhere down the road and somewhere a bit further down the road. By contrast, even if you allow an apparent angular diameter for Venus of a quarter of a degree (which is pretty generous) your Venus identification entails an error factor of, at minimum, 10 to 18 - the difference between somewhere down the road, and somewhere well over a mile away. The visual system tend to work with qualitative estimates, not
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Re: Gill Sighting - Reason From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 17:55:00 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:34:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Gill Sighting - Reason >From: Manuel Borraz <maboay.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 18:40:56 +0200 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting <snip> >"When they [the objects] were stationary, they were a dull >yellow, perhaps slightly orange in colour. The luminosity was >not as bright, and that made their shape stand out very >distinctly. However, as they moved, they became more intense in >luminosity, in brightness, and as they went up and became more >bright, they did appear as they got higher, at one glance, like >a bright planet, or something like that. And that was the reason >for mistaking it for Venus, confusing it with Venus, that first >night." (Gill's talk, Oct. 28, 1959) >Clearly, the perceptual clues were luminosity changes and the >presence/absence of "halos" around the objects, just possible >effects of clouds upon the light from bright stars and planets, >if these were involved. Thanks for this information, which I hadn't seen before. However, as presented here, your comments make no sense. If the perceptual clues to altitude were luminosity changes, then the objects should have appeared less bright when they ascended, not more. Also, if the objects were in fact planets, then their apparent shape should have been a function of their brightness, since it's optical defects due to brightness which create the illusion of shape. The apparent shape of the objects should have been most
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Re: Maussan Sees Maya Link In UFOs - Myers From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:27:38 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:36:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Maussan Sees Maya Link In UFOs - Myers >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 22:58:54 +0000 >Subject: Re: Maussan Sees Maya Link In UFOs >I asked my friend Dr. John B. Carlson, founder and director of >the Institute of Archeoastronomy at the University of Maryland >and an expert on Mayan history and culture (currently holding a >prestigious position at the Library of Congress in same), to >comment on the Maussan story for posting here. >John is a very literate guy and obviously replied in some haste, >so please forgive his typos. His meaning will be crystal clear. >----- >From: John B. Carlson <tlaloc.nul >To: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul >Subject: Re: FW: UFO UpDate: Maussan Sees Maya Link In UFOs >Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:26:41 -0500 >Dick, >This is the worst sort of non-sense. This man is a charlatan >and/or a crazy. A real "schizo-ceramic" if you take my meaning. >A great cycle in the ancient Maya calendar will click over in >2012 CE, but this man's statements are part of a group of New >Age crazies whose rantings have no relationship whatsoever to >the either the ancient or ligitimate contemporary Maya. >I could give you some of the historical background to this >particular cult, because I have fololowed it along from its >beginnings, but it is a crock of balone at best. There is no >serious research here. It denigrates the true cultural heritage >of the Maya peoples and that is the real shame of such crass >fabrication. It doesn't eveen make a good fantasy novel. We are talking about Jaime Maussan here, folks. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Re: Recent FUFOR Publications - Frison From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:45:23 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:43:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Recent FUFOR Publications - Frison >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:19:31 +0000 >Subject: Re: Recent FUFOR Publications >This is not exactly fair of you, since I privately explained to >you how I accidentally misplaced those orders. You in fact >replied that it really didn't matter because you were away at >the time. Please set the record straight on this. Indeed, Dick, this needs setting straight! This is not a complaint against you or the fund. No one on this List should take it as such. I sent an e-mail to Steven Kaeser off-list long before your post, which read: [start quote] Damn it... I was hoping this wouldn't get posted to UpDates! The first time I wrote this message, I inadvertantly clicked the 'reply' button (as a force of habit) when intending to send it to you off-List. I forgot that your post originally went to UpDates and I absent mindedly treated it (days later when I went to reply to you off-List) as a message that you had sent to me personally. I didn't catch the mistake until minutes after I had clicked the send button and by then it was too late. It took it three days to show up on UpDates and I figured that I was going to 'luck out' with it not getting posted (I regularly have problems both sending and receiving posts from UpDates). This was not something I wanted to be made public! Deep apologies to you and FUFOR." [end quote] As you can see, this is something I was trying to check on in private. It was not intended for this List. You did your part in it, Dick, and I was more than satisfied with your response. As I said to you at the time, these things happen. It was no big deal - and actually a good thing at the time. I really started counting only after you had sent things on to the Fund. It's what has been happening (or not happening) since then that is discouraging. Your misplacing the orders was not a problem and was actually a blessing because I was away for an extended period at the time. But it has been more than two months since you advised me that you were forwarding the orders to the Fund for belated processing and, according to the time period stated on FUFOR's website that one should wait before checking on orders, enough time has passed that I should have received something. It has now exceeded the proper 'time to wait' period even when starting from the date you sent the orders on to the Fund. The frustrating part is that I had made several attempts to communicate with the Fund but was not being answered. No one was replying to my efforts to check on the status of my orders; this was what was discouraging. Even allowing for the time you misplaced the orders, Dick, enough time has elapsed that I should have received something. Starting only from the point you rectified misplacing the orders, the advised time to wait before checking has again been exceeded. It was prudent to check on them - and I did try - but no one was responding. Hence, my discouragement. But it was not intended to be a public affair. My 'post' was intended off-List for Steven Kaeser, who brought up that CUFOS and FUFOR were discussing combining certain aspects of their operations - resulting in lack of promotion of certain new publications. Hitting the 'reply' button through habit and not paying enough attention caused it to appear on UpDates. Again, sincere apologies to those affected!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 19:07:01 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:48:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rogerson >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:55:13 -0600 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:56:55 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 11:51:18 -0600 >>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:37:10 -0800 >>>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>>>Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:49:00 +0000 >>>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>The incident serves as an object lesson, underscoring the >>>conclusion that so-called psychosocial ufology is not science >>>(as Greg Sandow elegantly observed on this List on October 28, >>>to thunderous pelicanist silence), it's just mind-reading. Maybe >>>a better name for it would be clairvoyant ufology. >>>And maybe it's time simply to let them continue to gaze into >>>the crystal ball while the rest of us attend to the actual >>>business of research, investigation, and empirically based >>>analysis. >>That's right Jerry, it was just a happy coincidence that Gill's >>close friend Norman Crutwell was a correspondent of contactee >>loving, Trench edited FSR, and goes around talking about and >>showing pictures of _Adamski's craft_. Note also the whole idea >>of the _ufonauts_ waving like tourists at the witnesses is part >>and parcel of this space brothers philosophy. >They just won't give up, will they? Not until you address the point. Gill's stories don't come unbidden, they are in response to a request from Crutwell. Crutwell goes around showing all and sundry pictures of flying saucers and talking about _Adamski's_craft_. Crutwell and Gill are close enough friends to refer to each other by first name (which for Englishmen of their class and generation, even if now tempered by a dose of Australian egalitarianism, means they are close friends indeed). They are part of a very small community of _respectable_ Europeans in a colonial situation, they have to at least pretend
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Alien Artifacts In The Solar System? From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:56:51 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:30:35 -0500 Subject: Alien Artifacts In The Solar System? While I like to consider the possibility of artifacts orbiting Earth, I have some problems with the FATE article which is promulgating the old "mysterious satellite" or "mystery satellite" or "mystery moon" story of 1960. Excerpt from FATE article "The mystery of the LDEs took an added twist in February 1960 when a mysterious blip appeared on radar operated by the North American Air Defense System, which is today NORAD. The blip was of an object with an estimated mass of 15 metric tons flying in a polar orbit. It was tracked for three weeks and caused considerable pandemonium within the Department of Defense. Then it vanished as abruptly as it had appeared. Months later, a story was circulated that the mystery object was the second-stage booster for the top-secret Discoverer V surveillance satellite, launched into polar orbit on August 13, 1959. Alas, the Discoverer second stage was nowhere near the estimated size of the mystery satellite. In fact, the entire fully-fueled Thor-Agena rocket used to launch the Discoverer had a mass of only 8,470 pounds (less than four metric tons), a fraction of the suspected mass of the unidentified object." Error #1 The original AP newpaper account from Feb 11,1960 mentions the "15 tons" idea (no where else is it ever mentioned): "In this rumor stage, there were reports the object was far heavier than anything the United States had put up perhaps weighing as much as 15 tons...." "The official announcement, describing it as slightly smaller than carrier rocket used for Discoverer satellites, downgraded rumors as to its size...." "This object is slightly smaller than the US Discoverer carrier rockets of which six are now in orbit in a somewhat similar path." So unless someone has special access to some other documents, the "15 tons" was only a rumor. Practically speaking, it is very difficult to estimate mass of an orbiting object unless detailed knowledge of the air density, projected area of the object is known. And they used "metric tons" as well! If anyone has any data supporting 15 tons metric or otherwise, let me know. Error #2 About it flying in polar orbit. This is a very loose term which many have thought to mean directly over the poles. In a Feb 12, 1960, AP article it says, "The Navy trackers estimate the object is circling the earth every 104.5 minutes, sweeping over parts of the United States on some of its orbits. They calculate its egg-shaped orbit swings it 1074 miles from the earth at its farthest point and brings it to within 134 miles at closest range. It crosses the equator at an approximate angle of 79 degrees. If it were in a true north- south polar orbit, the angle would be 90 degrees." So, it is a near polar orbit at best Error #3 About the claim that it was tracked for 3 weeks and then disappeared and that it caused pandemonium. From the Feb 11, AP article... "Navy tracking stations first spotted the object about three weeks ago, but the Defense Department said nothing about it. There was no official comment until after word was published Wendesday (Feb 10, 1960) that the Pentagon was buzzing with "what is it?" speculation." Buzzing and pandemonium are quite different. Its not clear where they got the pandemonium idea. The 3 weeks is sort of right (the term is used), but where they ever got the idea that the object disappeared is totally baffling because this is never stated in any news article about this object. Error #4 About it taking months for an explanation, this is rubbish! As early as Feb 20, 1964, the UPI submitted this story: "The mystery satellite circling the earth in a polar orbit apparently is an American-launched obj'ect and not any Soviet spying device after all. Faulty readings of delicate radar tapes were blamed today for previous suspicions that the voiceless satellite was of Russian origin, possibly a seeing eye to spy on this country." "The Defense Department said Tuesday the object, first reported two weeks ago, most probably is the ejection capsule from America's Discoverer V satellite launched Aug. 13, 1959. The capsule was designed for recovery, and was ejected from the rocket, but never reentered the atmosphere." "Largest error in the radar readings was the initial Feb. 10 statement that the mystery object was about 19 feet long. It actually is only three by two feet, the size of the Discoverer capsule." "Defense officials said a few faulty readings could have caused the error. The object at first was thought to be a rocket cylinder tumbling through space, they said, and when the size now believed correct was shown, it was thought the cylinder was pointed toward the earth". The AP had this story on Feb 24, 1960: "The Defense Department thinks it has solved the mystery of the mystery satellite: It probably is part of a Discoverer rocket that was supposed to come back to earth but didn't. "The Department said Tuesday it came to this conclusion after continuing study by Navy and Air Force tracking stations. The existence of the silent satellite, tumbling in a nearly polar orbit, was announced Feb. 3. " "There was much speculation about it, including theories that it was a Soviet spy satellite or that it was a tiny natural moon nobody had noticed before. The Soviet Union denied having anything to do with it. " "The Defense Department anouncement said it is believed his vehicle most probably is the ejected recovery capsule of Discoverer V launched into polar orbit in August 1959." "This capsule was programmed to be ejected downward and backward by a retro-rocket which imparts to the capsule a velocity of about 1300 to 1400 feet per second with respect to its carrier rocket." "It is known that the Discoverer V capsule was ejected. However, the carrier rocket probably was not in the proper position for ejecton toward the earth. The energy imparted by the retro-rocket was such as to provide an orbit similar to that of the unidentified satellite."' Error #5 Comparing the "estimated" weight of the object (i.e.15 tons) to the Discoverer V second stage is wrong because the "15 tons" was a rumor, not an estimate, and the mass of the the capsule was not even the same as the mass of the rocket. Omission #1: Regarding this "mystery object", UFO enthusiasts seem to omit the tumbling part which is always mentioned in the news articles on the topic. Tumbling doesn't sound too good in reference to an alien probe, does it? There must be an old analysis document out there describing the efforts of the military to explain the thing, along with data which should be declassified by now. Other Data Examination of the available orbital elements at: http://planet4589.org/space/elements/00000/S00026 for the Discoverer V capsule are interesting in that the data shows it launched prior to the Discoverer V rocket. However, I have been told that the likely error is that the year of the elements should have been for 1960 and not 1959. If one assumes that this is true, then the first available orbital element for the capsule is for Feb 15, 1960. Examining these provide the inclination of 78.728 degrees, apogee of 1076 miles (statute) and perigee of 129 miles with an orbit time of 104.25 minutes. This is fairly close to the values in the newspaper articles that the Navy claimed to have calculated (about 78 degree inclination, 104.5 minute orbit period, 1074 miles apogee, 134 mile perigee) since the exact date of their estimate is not given. Note that satellite orbital elements were updated in a non- uniform manner (especially the old ones) so it may have been days/weeks earlier sighted earlier. The next reported orbital element after this time was 14 days later (Feb 29) so conceivably with such a periodic data rate, the object may have been detected late in January . It is significant that after the Discoverer V capsule reentry attempt in August of 1959, no orbital elements were listed for the capsule until this Feb 15, 1960 date. On the other hand, the rocket body did have orbital elements from launch on August 14, 1959 to Sept 26, 1959 (two days prior to reentry). The firing of the retro rockets must have placed the satellite into such a high elliptical orbit to make it be lost to tracking for a long while. Conclusion Reading the actual newspaper stories rather than depending on Internet fabrications/interpetations cleared up a number of questions I had about the whole story. Still, it all comes down to whether you can trust the source of the data. In this case, the military provided the original story which got hyped up and then was explained fairly reasonably (if you trust them).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Re: Recent FUFOR Publications - Frison From: Eugene Frison <eugene.frison.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:59:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:32:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Recent FUFOR Publications - Frison >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:19:31 +0000 >Subject: Re: Recent FUFOR Publications >This is not exactly fair of you, since I privately explained to >you how I accidentally misplaced those orders. You in fact >replied that it really didn't matter because you were away at >the time. Please set the record straight on this. Regarding my earlier explanation, I wish to stress that my discouragement does not come as a result of any fault of Dick Hall's. He owned up to misplacing the orders and promptly wrote me a detailed explanation so that I kew the status of my orders. Dick was always courteous, thoughtful, and professional. My discouragement creeps in only from the point after my orders left his care - as the proper time to wait was again exceeded, no word on the status of my orders was ever sent, and my inquiries went unanswered. When Dick's involvement ended, so did my awareness of what was going on with my orders and the comfort I felt that things were being properly tended to. Having said all this, I wish to state that I'm sure the whole thing is just an oversight and will be remedied. Sure, I'm discouraged at the frustration of how these orders got hit by Murphy's law but no one should make a big deal out of this. Rob Swiatek and the people working on behalf of FUFOR work hard - very, very hard. Nowhere am I complaining against the Fund; if
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Uncensored Project Blue Book Microfilm Released From: William Wise <will.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:01:57 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:37:19 -0500 Subject: Uncensored Project Blue Book Microfilm Released Blue Book Archive Newsletter - 15 Nov 2005 Uncensored Project Blue Book Microfilm Released * First 10 Rolls of Uncensored Blue Book Microfilm Released * Zoom, Rotate, and Invert Images Using the Image Viewer * Upcoming Improvements and Microfilm Releases * Blue Book Archive Gets a Logo * Contact Information and How To Subscribe & Unsubscribe First 10 Rolls Of Uncensored Blue Book Microfilm Released When Project Blue Book was terminated in January 1970 its files were transferred to Maxwell Air Force Base (AFB) where they were made available upon request for public viewing until 1975. In 1975 these documents were microfilmed by the Air Force for internal use and then transferred to the National Archives (NARA) for eventual public release. Before microfilming these documents again for public release, however, the Air Force blacked out witness names and contact information in accord with its policy of protecting the privacy of witnesses. This was done despite the fact that the files had been available for copying and inspection by the public for many years without such deletions. In 1998 a set of the original unredacted Air Force microfilm was discovered at the National Archives and a copy was obtained by the Fund for UFO Research. In addition to witness names and information, it has been confirmed that these rolls contain some pages that are not on the standard NARA Project Blue Book microfilm rolls. Thanks to the efforts of the Fund for UFO Research and the Blue Book Archive the first ten rolls of uncensored "Maxwell" NARA microfilm are now available to researchers free of charge via the Blue Book Archive's Web site. These rolls include reports investigated from the beginning of Project Sign in 1947 through to the middle of June, 1952. They also contain a number of Project Sign, Grudge, and Blue Book reports including the Project Twinkle and Project Stork reports as well as Project Blue Book Special Report No. 14. Famous cases covered by these rolls include many cases discussed by Edward Ruppelt in his book "The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects" including: * The Lubbock Lights * The Fort Monmouth Radar Case * The Mariana Film * The Chiles-Whitted Sighting * The Gorman Case As always, the microfilm document scans hosted at our Web site are searchable within the limits afforded by current OCR technology. Navigate to the URL below to browse the new Maxwell microfilm collection. http://www.bluebookarchive.org/browse.aspx?Tab=5 In addition to on-line access, the NARA-Maxwell microfilm scans are also available for purchase at the Blue Book Archive's secure e-store. The document scans from each roll of NARA-Maxwell microfilm are provided on DVD in both PDF and TIFF format for only $14.95 USD plus shipping and handling. Please note that due to the relative historical importance of the NARA-Maxwell collection the decision was made to re-scan the microfilm in grayscale which dramatically increased the size of the resulting scans but provided greatly improved legibility. Also necessitating the use of grayscale scanning is the fact that the Maxwell microfilm is only available as 16mm microfilm as opposed to the higher-quality 35mm microfilm generally available from the National Archives. As a result of this decision the NARA-Maxwell scans are only available on higher- capacity DVD media and the cost of each roll is $14.95 instead of the usual $9.95 for scans sold on CD media. Zoom, Rotate, And Invert Images Using The Image Viewer As many researchers know, the quality and legibility of microfilm reproductions varies greatly from frame to frame and from roll to roll. To aid researchers trying to tease out additional legibility from faded, light-blasted, or otherwise poorly photographed documents we've added a new Image Viewer component that allows users to zoom, rotate, and invert images. In addition, we now use a high-quality bicubic resampling method to create the thumbnail and screen format page representations further increasing legibility even when simply browsing through document collections. Less noticeable improvements and bug fixes have also been made "under the hood". To access the Image Viewer from any page within the archive look for the link labeled "View in Image Viewer" in the upper right-hand portion of the screen or just click the page image itself. Upcoming Improvements And Microfilm Releases Upcoming Microfilm Releases Within the next few weeks we will be releasing NARA-Maxwell Roll 11 which includes reports from the famous Washington D.C. "Summer of the Saucers" sighting wave. As we have moved from automated roll scanning to a manual process you will notice yet another marked improvement in the quality of our microfilm scans. In addition, Project Sign Roll 7 and another roll from our "Other Official Microfilm" collection will also be available in the coming weeks, both thanks to the continuing generosity of Jan Aldrich from Project 1947. Improvements In Ocr Technology To Yield Better Search Results The Blue Book Archive recently acquired the latest version of Abbyy's market leading OCR (Optical Character Recognition) software, FineReader 8.0. Based on our testing the advertised 10-30% improvement in recognition accuracy is a fair assessment of the improvement we're likely to see when the new software is used to reprocess existing Archive content. In the next few weeks researchers should begin to notice better search results thanks to the application of this new software to existing Archive content. The Blue Book Archive Gets A Logo Since the archive first opened its virtual doors in January 2005 we've been looking for an attractive logo to help users identify Archive content and to display on various promotional items to help fund the addition of new content and features. While the promotional items are still a month or two away from being available we thought we'd share the new Blue Book Archive logo with you now. To view the new Blue Book Archive logo navigate to the following URL...and please let us know what you think! http://www.bluebookarchive.org/documentation/notify2.aspx Contact Information And How To Subscribe & Unsubscribe Please address all comments and questions to archivist.nul To unsubscribe from this newsletter just respond to this email stating your desire to be removed from our mailing list. If you did not receive this newsletter directly and would like to subscribe send an email to the aforementioned address stating your desire to be added to our mailing list. About the Blue Book Archive Newsletter The Blue Book Archive Newsletter is published irregularly by the Project Blue Book Archive to announce the release of new
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Ufologists Weigh In On Human Origin Debate From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:44:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:44:58 -0500 Subject: Ufologists Weigh In On Human Origin Debate Source: Yes! Weekly - Greensboro, North Carolina, USA http://tinyurl.com/ckcrz Nov 15 2005 Ufologists Weigh In On Human Origin Debate Amy Kingsley Staff writer Peggy Price, assistant director of the Mutual UFO Network of North Carolina, stands in the hallway of the Clarion Hotel, a candy-coated vision in her pink skirt suit and platinum confection hair. She sips water during the break between speakers at an all-day conference Nov. 6 sponsored by the group. "I've had ET and UFO experiences since I was a child," Price says. "When I was in college I switched from medicine to psychology to try to find some answers. Well, there are no answers." While she attended the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, she came home to find two gray-type aliens exploring her apartment. Shocked, she dropped her book bag and the aliens disappeared. Her eyes widen as she conveys the enormity of the experience. To her right, an older man tries to edge in on the conversation. Some aliens, he says, harvest eggs and sperm to create alien- human hybrids. Price, a network member since 1995, gently reaffirms that her experiences have all been innocuous. The man might be keyed up from the presentation he just witnessed led by Lloyd Pye, a professorial type with an interest in the star child and other unusual skulls. Those who have never heard of Pye might believe the human origin debate is confined to the theories of evolution, intelligent design and creationism. Not so, says Pye, a strident supporter of intervention theory and challenger of the mainstream scientific paradigm. A Texas couple gave Pye the star child skull in 2001. The eyes sit closer than a normal skull, the ears farther down. A line extends to the back of the meeting room of people who walk up to a front table to take their picture with a Styrofoam replica. The real skull is awaiting a battery of scientific tests in England. "We're never going to be treated with the same kind of respect," Pye says about his scientific work, "because this is something no one really wants the answer to." Instead of emerging from a primordial soup, or the hand of some divine being, Pye proposes that humans originated from some kind of intergalactic science project. Oblivious to the Napoleon Dynamite reference, he presents a liger (combination lion/tiger) as evidence of the power of genetic engineering. "Science would have you believe that mother nature [created us]," Pye said. "It isn't natural, it happened in a genetics lab." Pye has traveled the world spreading the gospel of intervention theory. He finds a credulous crowd in Greensboro; they hang on his every Power Point bullet. "Cheetahs are weird," he says. The tan portion of their coat is composed of dog fur, while the black spots are cat hair, he adds. Scientists have ignored this obvious evidence of prehistoric cloning because they cannot explain it. MUFON is a dedicated safe space for those who have had extraterrestrial experiences to share their stories without the fear of ridicule. Not all of the participants have had experiences; some are simply curious. David Boldman would speak after the break about his area of expertise, UFO trace evidence. Angel hair is a spider-webby substance often left when the flying objects leave the site. The former pilot stumbled onto the UFO scene in 1989 when he saw a glowing disc in the distance =97 something he knew was not an aircraft. Mainstream scientists have dismissed angel hair as blown spider webs, Boldman says, but there are structural differences. When handled, the substance becomes gelatinous and evaporates into the air, according to some experts. He and his associates have a sample of the substance that is awaiting electron microscope analysis. "Physically it's superficially similar to spider web," Boldman said. "But it has the unusual property of dissolving or disappearing." The topic of his lecture today will be more well-known trace evidence of UFO existence, crop circles. Not all of those who research the terrestrial phenomenon believe aliens create them. Boldman himself is ambivalent. "Of course I don't dismiss the idea of extraterrestrials," he said. "I think it would be more ridiculous if there weren't." Inside the meeting room, the attendees queue up to examine the comprehensive guide to aliens and their spaceships mounted on poster board to the right of the entrance. The images vary from childish UFO and alien drawings to sophisticated renderings. The board sports no photographs. Crowd banter ranges from breathless declarations of faith in aliens to jargon-laced ruminations on the scientific evidence that will finally convince skeptics. The atmosphere is at once heady and relaxed. "This is not a normal thing I can talk about in everyday conversation," Price says. "I live a double life. There is the life I have when I am at work, and there is MUFON." She adds that the group is open for membership, but in this room filled with believers, recruitment appears to be no hurdle. Like the spaceships that descend from the sky in search of human incubators, extraterrestrial believers will gravitate to MUFON's
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:52:13 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:20:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rimmer >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:55:13 -0600 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:56:55 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>That's right Jerry, it was just a happy coincidence that Gill's >>close friend Norman Crutwell was a correspondent of contactee >>loving, Trench edited FSR, and goes around talking about and >>showing pictures of _Adamski's craft_. Note also the whole idea >>of the _ufonauts_ waving like tourists at the witnesses is part >>and parcel of this space brothers philosophy. >They just won't give up, will they?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Re: Psychiatry & UFOs - Matteson From: Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:42:06 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:23:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs - Matteson >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 21:07:35 EST >Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs <snip> >There are, I'll admit, more psychiatrists and psychologists who >are standing up and if they don't fall under the spectre of >retribution from their colleagues they'll make headway the right >way. Hello Greg/List: Nobel prize winner (albeit NOT in psychiatry), Kary Mullis, in his 1998, Dancing Naked in the Mind Field, relates an odd experience involving missing time and an encounter, while at his weekend retreat far from the city. Some few professionals in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Dozens Of UFOs Reported Over Wales From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:28:52 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:28:52 -0500 Subject: Dozens Of UFOs Reported Over Wales Source: The Western Mail - Cardiff, Wales, UK http://tinyurl.com/9hjzq Nov 16 2005 Dozens Of UFOs Reported Over Wales Robin Turner Western Mail Dozens of UFOs that the Ministry of Defence cannot explain have been sighted in Wales in the past three years, the release of confidential papers has revealed. The MoD confirmed that a green, circular object seen hovering in one position over Mumbles in January 2002 was classed as a UFO. And another bright object seen hovering over West Swansea in January of this year is also being put down as a UFO. However, Julie Monk of the Ministry of Defence's Directorate of Air Staff made it clear a UFO classification simply meant no rational explanation for a sighting could be found, not that it was extra-terrestrial in origin. MoD figures show 28 reports of UFO sightings in Wales in the past three years cannot be explained. The close encounters include a black object hovering over Rhyl, a flying disc over Newport and a spinning craft with legs spotted in the skies above Rhondda. The figures, released under the Freedom of Information Act, show that there were seven sightings in 2002, eight in 2003, four in 2004 and nine so far this year. Whitehall-based Mrs Monk said, "The MoD examines any reports of UFOs it receives solely to establish whether what was seen might have some defence significance. "That is, whether there is any evidence the UK's airspace might have been compromised by an unauthorised aircraft. "Unless there is evidence of a potential threat to the UK from some external source, and to date no UFO report has revealed such evidence, we do not attempt to identify the precise nature of each sighting." Mrs Monk said rational explanations could be found for such sightings but it would be "an inappropriate use of defence resources" to go into great depth on each report. Instead, a number of the reports are simply classed as UFOs and a database of sightings in Wales has now been built up from 2002 onwards. Because of the large number of reports before 2002, the MoD says the cost of examining, logging and placing them all on a database would be too expensive. The MoD holds reports of UFOs in Wales going back 25 years. Cardiff-based UFO researcher Chris Fowler said, "There are credible sightings of unidentified objects in the sky. "Either these are our craft, which means we've got technology far more powerful than the ones most of us know about, or else they're somebody else's. I don't know more than that." There have been a number of UFO watching groups in Wales including the Welsh Federation of Independent Ufologists. The strangest report given to the federation involved a family travelling by car to the Great Orme on November 10, 1997. They could not account for several "lost" hours when they suddenly became aware of resuming their journey, according to investigator Margaret Fry. She was told of their account by a friend of the family. Margaret says the couple and their children where driving on the Bodfair/Landernog road when they found their car engulfed by a purple triangular craft. The next thing they remember is the purple craft had gone. She said, "But they could not account for considerable hours of time lost. "The father was having trouble afterwards with a top molar tooth and he had to go to the dentist. "A black unknown object fell out while he was at the dentist ... but he had no fillings." There was a raft of "cigar- shaped object" sightings in Pembrokeshire in the 1970s which prompted an RAF inquiry. And in January 1974 there were reports a spacecraft "as big as the Albert Hall" landed in the Berwyn Mountains. Last year, Alison Moore, 26, took footage of a floating disc in the sky above her Trehafod, Rhondda, home.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:26:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:26:06 -0500 Subject: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely Source: The Daily of The University of Washington-Seattle, USA http://tinyurl.com/8xggh November 15, 2005 UW Professors: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely A new book authored by two aUW professors says complicated life in the universe is rare, but not everyone is giving up By Tia Ghose Ever wondered how life began and whether there is life on other planets? You're not alone, but the curiosity rarely turns into a career. The UW astrobiology program gives hope to would-be professional stargazers. Astrobiology -- the study of life in the universe -- looks for scientific answers to questions like "How did life begin on this planet?" and "Are we alone in the universe?" The field builds on knowledge across several disciplines. UW biology professor Peter Ward and UW astronomy professor Donald Brownlee believe discovering intelligent aliens on other planets is unlikely. In Rare Earth, a book the two co-authored, they say the conditions needed for complex life are so narrow that microbial life may be common, but complicated life in the universe is likely rare. Not everyone in the astrobiology program has given up on finding extra-terrestrial intelligence. It is hard to know what conditions are necessary for life with only the example of terrestrial organisms, said astronomy professor Woody Sullivan. "To be in astrobiology, you have to be a little bit of an optimist, you have to be a speculator," Sullivan said. The UW graduate certificate program in astrobiology started in 1999 with funding from a National Science Foundation (NSF) grant, said Billy Brazelton, a graduate student in oceanography. The program also receives funds from the NASA Institute of Astrobiology and matching funds from the University. The NSF grant that funds the program will expire in five years. Because it is an interdisciplinary program, finding new funding for graduate students could be difficult, Brazelton said. "It's a very romantic concept, but to also be able to have funding to study it is a really special opportunity," said Jelte Harnmeijer, a graduate student in Earth and space sciences who studies 3.8 billion-year-old rocks in an attempt to understand how simple bacterial life on earth formed. Erosion has erased most traces of early organisms on Earth, so Harnmeijer's research takes him where the oldest rocks still have chemical evidence of this early life, including remote parts of Australia, South Africa and Greenland. According to the astrobiology program's Web site, students receive a traditional education in one of the participating departments -- aeronautics and astronautics, astronomy, atmospheric, Earth and space sciences, history (of science), microbiology and oceanography. Chasing down the origins of life takes knowledge from many different disciplines, so graduate students also take astrobiology and interdisciplinary classes, said astronomy graduate student Nathan Kaib. Brazelton studies a deep-sea thermal vent system called the Lost City. The 200-foot limestone towers house anaerobic microbial life that use methane and hydrogen for metabolism, he said. Brazelton hopes that by studying life in a strange environment on earth, he can understand better what life on other planets
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 16 Foil Hats Amplify Some Frequencies From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:43:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:43:54 -0500 Subject: Foil Hats Amplify Some Frequencies Source: Metro - London, UK http://www.metro.co.uk/metro/standard/article.html?in_article_id=3D1306 November 16th 2005 Mel Gibson Has a lot to answer for. The star of the Hollywood movie Signs appears to have got a few too many people thinking. In the 2002 sci-fi blockbuster, Gibson and his family don tin- foil hats to stop aliens controlling their minds. Now a group of scientists claim to have uncovered a US government plot to do the same thing (please, bear with us). They believe people's minds are 'invaded' by special radio signals. But wait, it gets better. The only way to block the messages is to wear 'protective' tin- foil hats. Experts from the highly respected Massachusetts Institute of Technology have put =A3144,000 of equipment to use trying to disprove the theory. They put an antenna on the head of a subject and emitted radio signals at different frequencies with and without the 'protective' hat. The report, On the Effectiveness of Aluminium Foil Helmets: An Empirical Study, found most frequencies were reduced by the 'helmet' but certain frequencies were amplified.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Strange Marks Found On Argentine Cattle From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:53:43 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 05:22:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Strange Marks Found On Argentine Cattle INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology November 16, 2005 ----- Source: CIUFOS-La Pampa Date: 11-16-05 Argentina: Strange Marks Found On Cattle At a ranch located in the jurisdiction of Winifreda, Province of La Pampa, 25 animals - belonging to a livestock operation of 50 bovines - were found with strange marks on the upper reaches of their left scapulas. These injuries were described as witnesses as "superficial flagellation", according to beekeeper Jose Bravo, who keeps his hives on the same premises. The marks, consisting in a perfect "circle" measuring some 5 cm in diameter, presented in their interior a sort of "burn mark" on the hide, leaving an image reminiscent of the effects resulting from "...the application of suction cups." It is worth noting the fact that the only means of ganing access to these premises is through a locked gate, and having inspected the site, no prints or trails that suggested the entry of motor vehicles near the affected pens were detected, neither around the animals nor the rest of the field. Finally, it should be noted that the person in charge of the ranch, who chose to remain anonymous, also found a mutilated cow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 07:21:38 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 05:20:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Lehmberg >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 19:07:01 +0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:55:13 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism <snip> >>They just won't give up, will they? >Not until you address the point. Gill's stories don't come >unbidden, they are in response to a request from Crutwell. >Crutwell goes around showing all and sundry pictures of flying >saucers and talking about _Adamski's_craft_. <snip> Wasn't this Gill Affair a courageous account of a quality person with a fine reputation and significant education, who, among other quality persons present, _knew_ where Venus was, and additionally, saw a silent hovering craft... upon which they were able to perceives occupants... even waving back and forth to one another? I suspect it's _that_ pushing a wrinkle in your boxers and over- bunching your chubbies, Mr. Rogerson, and not Mr. Clark's rational dismissal (not to _mention_ deconstruction) of questions contrived to distort a reality decidedly
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Chichikov From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:17:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 05:25:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Chichikov >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:03:38 -0400 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:52:01 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>Suppose, for the sake of argument, that there is a genuine UFO >>phenomenon involving incursions into national territory which >>the national government, charged with defending that >>territory and the welfare of its citizens, is unable to >>prevent? Suppose no one in that government even understands >>precisely what the phenomenon represents. Suppose there is no >>entity that the government can lodge protests with, put >>pressure on, form alliances diplomatic and military against? >>Given that the primary purpose of government is to protect the >>welfare and security of the citizenry, what recourse does >>that government have? Should it make a public announcement >>that it has lost control of national territory to an unknown, >>and possibly unknowable force? That it is helpless, in this >>case? >Pavel, >Well put. This has been my take on it for some time. It >explains the silly US government and military statements, >parroted here in Canada and the UK - as if they were in >lockstep- that this phenomenon "...poses no threat to national >security...". If they admitted that it did pose a threat then >they would have to be actively seen combating this threat not >only physically with assets [men and machines] but budgetarily >as well. And they would have to show results and suffer the >usual publicity into the bargain. Don, I really do intend suppositions. I have a strong hunch that there is a complex phenomenon occurring for which the convenient shorthand is 'UFO', but if someone were to show me tomorrow, conclusively, that it consists of misapprehensions and misunderstandings, I would accept that.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:17:59 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 05:30:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Hall >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:49:27 -0600 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:00:46 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:52:01 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <snip> >>>What would be the purpose of such an announcement? >>Very good suppositions, and a possible (even likely) >>scenario. If you have a tiger by the tail, don't let go. >Which is fine, Sir, until you get hungry, thirsty, or >injured... then "just holding on" is as unrealistic as it is >unlikely. Besides the suppositions made were based on too many >unwieldy assumptions. We may disagree about how reasonable or unreasonable the assumptions were (given my understanding of human nature they seem quite plausible to me); however, I am not saying whether the policy is good or bad, moral or immoral, defensible or indefensible. We tend to project our notions of right or wrong onto others, and to assume evil motives when the truth often is
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:32:23 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 05:32:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Clark >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:52:13 +0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:55:13 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:56:55 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>That's right Jerry, it was just a happy coincidence that Gill's >>>close friend Norman Crutwell was a correspondent of contactee >>>loving, Trench edited FSR, and goes around talking about and >>>showing pictures of _Adamski's craft_. Note also the whole idea >>>of the _ufonauts_ waving like tourists at the witnesses is part >>>and parcel of this space brothers philosophy. >>They just won't give up, will they? >Not when there's still people like you around, Jerry, who just >ignore the facts if they don't fit your theories. After all, any >mystery is better than an explanation. Pelicanists bring to mind the late Sen. Moynihan's famous admonition that while people have the right to their own opinions, they don't have the right to their own facts. That's the difference, in a nutshell, between the pelicanist and the empiricist. As we have had many occasions to observe, the latter are of the view that any answer, however evidence-deficient or outright wacky, is to be preferred to the concession of the obvious: that much about the UFO phenomenon, like much of the world and the universe generally, remains enigmatic. Better to sit in the cozy confines of the Sceptics Club at the Pelican Pub feeling warm and fuzzy about knowledge, even pretended knowledge, than to stand out in the cold breeze of reality and uncertainty.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:39:53 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 05:34:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Lehmberg >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:52:13 +0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:55:13 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:56:55 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>That's right Jerry, it was just a happy coincidence that Gill's >>>close friend Norman Crutwell was a correspondent of contactee >>>loving, Trench edited FSR, and goes around talking about and >>>showing pictures of _Adamski's craft_. Note also the whole idea >>>of the _ufonauts_ waving like tourists at the witnesses is part >>>and parcel of this space brothers philosophy. >>They just won't give up, will they? >Not when there's still people like you around, Jerry, who just >ignore the facts if they don't fit your theories. After all, any >mystery is better than an explanation. Awww! And you just missed on what _could_ have been an engaging imitation of GWB (abundantly guilty of what he would accuse?)...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Gill Sighting - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:58:54 -0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 05:36:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Gill Sighting - Shough >From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 17:55:00 -0000 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>From: Manuel Borraz <maboay.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 18:40:56 +0200 >>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting ><snip> >>"When they [the objects] were stationary, they were a dull >>yellow, perhaps slightly orange in colour. The luminosity was >>not as bright, and that made their shape stand out very >>distinctly. However, as they moved, they became more intense in >>luminosity, in brightness, and as they went up and became more >>bright, they did appear as they got higher, at one glance, like >>a bright planet, or something like that. And that was the reason >>for mistaking it for Venus, confusing it with Venus, that first >>night." (Gill's talk, Oct. 28, 1959) >>Clearly, the perceptual clues were luminosity changes and the >>presence/absence of "halos" around the objects, just possible >>effects of clouds upon the light from bright stars and planets, >>if these were involved. >Thanks for this information, which I hadn't seen before. >However, as presented here, your comments make no sense. If the >perceptual clues to altitude were luminosity changes, then the >objects should have appeared less bright when they ascended, not >more. Actually no. The suggestion is not that Gill interpreted changing relative brightness as being due to a constant absolute brightness varying as a direct function of distance. The idea here is that intervening thin cloud would diffuse and _enlarge_ the image, so the scaling would be by apparent size and you'd have objects becoming larger and dimmer (apparently descending) then smaller and brighter (ascending). >Also, if the objects were in fact planets, then their apparent >shape should have been a function of their brightness, since it's >optical defects due to brightness which create the illusion of >shape. The apparent shape of the objects should have been most >pronounced when the objects were at their brightest, not their >dimmest. I think haze diffusion is what is being suggested as generating angular size and apparent shape. When at its brightest and least diffused (clear sky, no cloud /haze) the naked eye image of a planet will be at its sharpest and least scattered, tending towards its true angular subtense (which is generally close to the lower limit of resolution of the eye) limited only by "optical defects due to brightness". When scattered through
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Alien Artifacts In The Solar System? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:25:37 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 05:42:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Alien Artifacts In The Solar System? - Ledger >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:56:51 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Alien Artifacts In The Solar System? <snip> >Conclusion >Reading the actual newspaper stories rather than depending on >Internet fabrications/interpetations cleared up a number of >questions I had about the whole story. Still, it all comes down >to whether you can trust the source of the data. In this case, >the military provided the original story which got hyped up and >then was explained fairly reasonably (if you trust them). >I still do not understand how the radar could have made such a >dramatic error in estimating the size of the object (the >newspaper accounts do not clear this up). I suppose a FOIA is in >order to get a better explanation. I find it hard to understand why NORAD's former self in 1960 would have been in a dither, evidence the newspaper reports of the time, when they had a possible explanation in the Discoverer V capsule or a tumbling booster, and then broadcast to the world that they had this retrieval method available to them. Quote: "Months later, a story was circulated that the mystery object was the second-stage booster for the top-secret Discoverer V surveillance satellite, launched into polar orbit on August 13, 1959." The Soviets weren't stupid, they would have figured out why the US was retrieving ejected capsules from a near-polar orbiting satellite, if their spy network wasn't already aware of its existence. Look at the number of years it took for the US to declassify the Top Secret cumbersome, turn of the [19th] century Mogal/Mogul balloon arrays for sniffing around the Soviet Union for nuclear explosions; and yet they out the polar orbiting, ejecting capsule type satellite technology to explain away an anomalous Near Earth satellite. It strikes me a bit odd as well that whenever there is a problem with size, speed and altitude, the previously state of the art radar become prone to errors then return to normal when the targeted anomalies go away. This object would have been tracked by dozens of radar arrays, not just one. The DEW line and Mid Continental lines were up and running and the Pine Tree Line was partially up and also under construction. So did they all go unserviceable at once? I note that that small detail is left out. I also note that there is no mention of repairs being done either. So this means the next fuzzy explanation would have been that it was the radar operators who suddenly went brain dead for three weeks and were unable to interpret their radar data. Comforting to know that all of them suffered the same thing at the same time. Apparently the soviets missed their window of opportunity there, eh? They could have owned the skies over Canada [the buffer zone] and the United States with this massive radar problem and inept operators. As an aside, aren't most polar orbiting satellites off-axis by
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Alien Artifacts In The Solar System? - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:22:42 -0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 05:56:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Alien Artifacts In The Solar System? - Shough >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:56:51 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Alien Artifacts In The Solar System? <snip> >"Largest error in the radar readings was the initial Feb. 10 >statement that the mystery object was about 19 feet long. It >actually is only three by two feet, the size of the Discoverer >capsule." >"Defense officials said a few faulty readings could have caused >the error. The object at first was thought to be a rocket >cylinder tumbling through space, they said, and when the size >now believed correct was shown, it was thought the cylinder was >pointed toward the earth". <snip> >I still do not understand how the radar could have made such a >dramatic error in estimating the size of the object (the >newspaper accounts do not clear this up). I suppose a FOIA is in >order to get a better explanation. The paragraphs you quote seem to contain a possible answer. The cylinder of a booster would be highly anisotropic reflector, as is the case with aircraft. (A big jet might have an RCS aspect ratio as large as 100:1 between side-on and head-on.) So if they had - or thought they had - good reason to believe that the object must be a certain booster stage they might assume from the estimated RCS that the cylinder happened to be oriented head on. The figure of 19 feet could simply be the known length of the booster stage. They would wait for the slow tumble to reveal a broadside aspect, progressively extending upper limits on the possible rate of tumble as this change didn't occur, until eventually accepting that the constant RCS had to be that of a smaller more isotropic reflector - the 2-3 foot capsule. There were interesting events at the new Thule BMEWS radar that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:46:47 -0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 05:58:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Shough >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:52:13 +0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:55:13 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:56:55 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>That's right Jerry, it was just a happy coincidence that Gill's >>>close friend Norman Crutwell was a correspondent of contactee >>>loving, Trench edited FSR, and goes around talking about and >>>showing pictures of _Adamski's craft_. Note also the whole >>>idea of the _ufonauts_ waving like tourists at the witnesses is >>>part and parcel of this space brothers philosophy. >>They just won't give up, will they? >Not when there's still people like you around, Jerry, who just >ignore the facts if they don't fit your theories. After all, any >mystery is better than an explanation. Hi John Speaking of ignoring facts, what about the rather challenging cases that Brad brought up near the beginning of this thread and which _nobody_ on this list seems to want to go near? Any thoughts on the triangulated sightings by a/c designer Clarence Johnson and a planeload of Lockheed test pilots and aerodynamicists? There's something there for everybody - if you don't fancy a physical science approach you could try the theory that they were all saucer-happy, influenced by the Lockheed
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Rimmer's 2006 Ufological Schedule From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:55:15 +0000 (GMT) Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 06:06:53 -0500 Subject: Rimmer's 2006 Ufological Schedule Source: Stuart Miller's Blog: UFO Disinfo R Us.com http://tinyurl.com/9pks7 Monday, November 14, 2005 The John Rimmer Ufological Schedule for 2006 by Stuart Miller John has recently been labelled a Ufological dinosaur on a UK message board. He is the publisher of a magazine called Magonia which has been going for quite a while and is a frequent poster to UFO UpDates where he indulges in long, tedious, and incredibly dull fencing with his bette noir, Jerry Clark. Every time though that John posts something to that List, he immediately has Alfred Lehmberg snapping at his heels, and even though for the most part he ignores Alfred, he nevertheless finds the whole experience extremely irritating. As a consequence, he has beome obsessed with both Clark and Lehmberg and seems unable to talk about anything else, and his mind has become muddled. John is also a sceptic when it comes to the ETH and appears to be extremely dubious as regards Ufology generally. His favourite instinctive response on a List is to pop up and claim that "All Ufologists are barking mad", an insightful comment I'm sure you'll agree and one which continues to impart the intellectual gravitas of a man who is proud to boast that he lives amongst dead people. He really does as his house is in a cemetery. I do not like seeing animals in distress and so as an act of kindness to John, I have taken the liberty of preparing his Ufological schedule for him for the next 12 months so that he can find his way forward and at least have the comfort of knowing what he is going to do before he does it. In late 2005, John has been winding down in a debate with Jerry Clark and a few others about the Father Gill sighting and whether or not Gill, who used the word "mothership" in his testimony could possibly have been influenced by Adamski or not. A concession here by those arguing that Gill had been isolated from such influences would open a wedge for John to further attack the credibility of Gill. As I indicated, riveting stuff. Of course, no ground was given by either side and so for the moment, the debate has run its course. But there's still a month and a half left of this year John and I figure that this truly fascinating debate could easily be rekindled again with just a modicum of effort. A possible source of further conversation could be whether Gill was wearing a hat when he sighted the UFO and whether in any way this affected his visibility. If he was wearing a hat, then the nature of the hat needs to be established as the sighting was in the evening and a black hat would have further decreased light reflectivity and absorption. This thread could take us through to Christmas and would be a suitable point at which to rest. Middle January in my opinion would be the best time to revisit one of John's favourites and a case which hasn't been touched for oooh, 18 months or so? I am of course referring to Trindale. Those of you who have experienced the sheer utter ennui of John, Jerry and others point scoring off eachother as they go backwards and forwards on the minutiae of this case will know what a treat they have in store. You might ask; what's left to discuss? I don't know for sure but I would like to help them if I can. Did, for example, the Almirante Saldanha have railings? Had they been cleaned? Were some of the witnesses perhaps looking at a reflection of the UFO displayed on these railings? Etc. This one could stretch on say from mid January through to the end of March. There would then be a respite for Easter and we could then move away from hard case fact to something more ethereal. John has recently contradicted himself. On UFO UpDates he has commented on the differences between UK Ufologfy and American Ufology while on the British message board Ufologyuk, he has claimed that there is no such thing as British Ufology. Intriguing. I am suggesting here that John runs two threads simultaneously on both boards, playing devil's advocate on both. This would of course be an exhausting experience as it could well run on right through the year and so for the sake of his mental health, I would suggest that these two threads be wound up sometime in mid summer, though I'll leave the exact date to John. That would be it for the year in terms of extended debate but I would also want to allow John precisely half a dozen additional windows so he can pop up suddenly on a board somewhere in that mad professor way of his and and shout that "All Ufologists are barking mad" which as explained before, he does regularly. I would be happy to leave those dates and choice of board entirely to John as after all, he is a grown man and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 NSA's UFO Investigations From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 06:17:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 06:17:53 -0500 Subject: NSA's UFO Investigations Source: Space.Com http://www.space.com/news/051116_nsa_ufo.html 16 November 2005 X Files Opened: The National Security Agency's UFO Investigations Unearthed By Leonard David Senior Space Writer There is one question that persistently circles the community of Unidentified Flying Object (UFO) true-believers: If the government has nothing to hide, UFO fans often ask, then why is it keeping so many UFO records under lock and key? "Well, it turns out that the government does have something to hide, but it has nothing to do with extraterrestrials," said Steven Aftergood, director of the Project on Government Secrecy at the Federation of American Scientists in Washington, D.C. A document has surfaced that had been stamped "Top Secret Umbra" =97 the codeword for the highest, most sensitive category of communications intelligence. The once-classified affidavit was originally filed by the National Security Agency (NSA) in a 1980 lawsuit to justify the withholding of records on UFOs. The document is largely declassified=97with certain sections cut out, ostensibly to protect employee names, and keep NSA technologies, skills, and foreign connections out of the limelight. The document=97In Camera Affidavit of Eugene F. Yeates: Citizens Against UFO Secrecy v. National Security Agency, October 9, 1980 =97 was released in redacted form on November 3 in response to a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request from researcher Michael Ravnitzky and posted on the website of the Federation of American Scientists. Foreign signals A read of the document yields insight into how a super-secret agency like the NSA became caught up in the UFO phenomenon. Created in November 1952, The National Security Agency/Central Security Service is America=92s cryptologic organization. It coordinates, directs, and performs highly specialized activities to protect U.S. government information systems and churns out foreign signals intelligence information. Being a high-tech organization, the NSA is a cutting-edge home for communications and data processing. It is also a center for foreign language analysis and research within the government. The just-released 1980 document explains that a total of 239 documents related to UFOs were located in NSA files, with 79 of those documents originating with other government agencies. One document is an account by an NSA official attending a UFO symposium. A healthy chunk of these reports were produced between 1958 and 1979. Deceptive data The titles of NSA-related UFO documents that are noted in the declassified document are intriguing, such as UFO Hypothesis and Survival Questions. Another title cited is UFO=92s and the Intelligence Community Blind Spot to Surprise or Deceptive Data. In this seven-page, undated, unofficial draft of a monograph authored by an unnamed NSA employee, the author reportedly points out what he considers to be "a serious shortcoming" in the NSA=92s communications intelligence (COMINT) interception and reporting procedures. That is, "the inability to respond correctly to surprising information or deliberately deceptive data." The unidentified author uses the UFO phenomenon to illustrate his belief that the inability of the U.S. intelligence community to process this type of unusual data adversely affects U.S. intelligence gathering capabilities. Within the pages of the newly-released affidavit=97and between sections of excised copy=97it shows NSA intercepted in 1971 communications between two aircraft and a ground controller discussing a "phenomena" in the sky, as well as radar screen observations, labeling what was viewed as "unidentifiable" objects. Other intercepted and decrypted reports of bright lights, luminous objects, and unidentified aircraft=97along with an elongated ball of fire=97scooting through the skies over non-U.S. countries are noted too. Intercept operations The 21-page affidavit makes clear that release of documents for public scrutiny, for a variety of reasons, "would seriously damage the ability of the United States to gather this vital intelligence information." Furthermore, how the NSA works with a network of foreign sources, organizations, and other governments to secure intelligence data would be adversely affected. The majority of these records, explained NSA official Eugene F. Yeates in the 1980 affidavit, were communications intelligence reports that "are the product of intercept operations directed against foreign government controlled communications systems within their territorial boundaries." New insight According to Aftergood, the newly declassified Yeates affidavit provides new insight into the types of records sought by UFO researchers that have been withheld by NSA. "Even with all of the deletions, one can get a sense of the enormous scale=97and the apparent success=97of the worldwide electronic intercept operations conducted by NSA at the height of the Cold War," Aftergood told SPACE.com. "Unfortunately it is not clear from the affidavit how the withheld documents might have related to UFOs," Aftergood said. "There must have been some connection in order for them to be within the scope of the original FOIA request=85but I have no idea what it was." But for those hungry to show a great government conspiracy is at work and that alien-driven UFOs routinely cruise through our skies, the just brought to light document won=92t help you. "The affidavit does not discount the UFO phenomenon=85it simply
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Psychiatry & UFOs - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:22:00 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 06:36:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs - White >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:40:03 EST >To: ufoupdates.nul >Subject: Re: Psychiatry & UFOs <snip> >I'm betting you know far more about the psychiatric treatment of >abductees and psychiatry in general and if you would, please >tell it on the mountain! It is the #1 stumbling block in getting >people to testify. I'm happy to report I _don't_ know a lot about psychiatry in general from personal experience! I do know that if you tell a psychiatrist you are being harassed by a group in your community who have been told vicious lies, such as the target is a pedophile, or, that you hear voices (do-able by modified radar signals for over 30 years) you are guaranteed at least forced medication, total discreditation, and often a bed in the local loony bin. Maybe some shock treatments thrown in for good measure. I also know that with a steady, purposeful but not 'glowering' manner, and using proven science and books on gang stalking, and a few refs to MKULTRA and the torture of children under that program, you can get a shrink _suddenly_ _very_ disinterested in talking to you, and you walk away! They really don't like hearing about crimes committed by their profession! Other than tapping the experience of mental health defence lawyers to identify honest psychiatrists (they do exist), I would say insisting on having someone who is articulate, polite, and very knowledgeable about the physical trace abduction cases _with_ an abductee when talking to a shrink is likely to keep the abductee out of trouble. Beyond that, I'm not an expert on psychiatry, but experienced mental health defence lawyers probably are. <snip> >Can you imagine your own kids trying to commit you to take over >a business or estate? Families of vigilante stalking/electronic harassment targets just _love_ to have the target locked up. Makes 'em feel that they have 'done the best they could' for the target, and that the target is 'getting the best help available', even if the target is shot full of haldol (terrible side effects) and being zapped with 90 volts across the skull (the average voltage used for shock treatment.) A few of our members did get turned over to the harassment thugs as a result of being first in line to inherit serious money. >His story mirrors many, many, abductees and witnesses I know. >It's horrible how some people will lurk like vultures to get >someone listed as insane or mentally unstable in order to rip >them off. There's a few folks back home in NY I aim to have a >word with as now I know that they drove people I know into a >state of instability and used their psych credentials to do so. Great work! >It's become a powerful, powerful tool of control ... Amen! It's really no different here than in the Soviet Union. The local psychiatrist who declared me sane said she really
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:34:19 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 06:39:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Rudiak >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:31:11 +0000 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:14:53 -0800 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>Maybe when we see some academic debunking UFOs >>under the guise of science, we should be wondering if this is >>really an independent opinion, or another example of what the >>1953 CIA's Robertson Panel recommended, using authority >>figures to debunk UFOs. ><snip> >Why must everything be a conspiracy? Haven't we seen plenty of >examples in human affairs (including academia) of simple >blindness, ignorance, prejudice, self-protection, fear of new >ideas? Or for that matter, honest disagreement? I don't recall saying anything about _all_ academic debunkers working for the CIA. The part that was snipped and you didn't respond to was: 1. The Church Senate investigation in the 1970s which found that some 500 journalists were on the CIA payroll. 2. Roy Craig's comment in his UFO debunking book that he was approached by CIA recruiters when he had just received his graduate degree and asked to be a CIA spy/asset in either academia or industry. (In fact, from Craig's remarks, it sounds like they were pretty much guaranteeing them positions in addition to extra money.) I would presume that Craig wasn't the only person so approached. Thus, like the journalists, there were probably large numbers of scientists also secretly employed by the CIA as spy/assets outside of the CIA proper. I might also add that both 1 & 2 are strictly illegal. The CIA was forbidden by law to engage in any domestic spying. But obviously they did, and it probably extended into other arenas as well, such as politics. I could further add that I personally experienced an example of domestic spying within the physics department at Berkeley back in 1970 during Viet Nam war protests following Kent State. Those of us who were involved in this don't know who employed this guy, but he sat in on a small meeting we had in a professor's office, representing himself as a grad student, and then clearly made a phone call to someone immediately afterward (he separated himself form the rest of the group, saying had something to attend to first). The plan was to go to Lawrence Livermore Lab and discuss the war and nuclear weapons' research with the scientists there in one of the public areas. But when the rest of us got to the lab 45 minutes later, they already knew we were coming and denied us entrance. So take your choice: the professor's office was bugged or this guy who nobody knew spied on us. This isn't paranoia. It's just plain fact. I think it is incredibly naive of you to think that such things did not go on, and this was just one relatively insignificant example. Now does this indicate that _all_ journalists and _all_ scientists who have debunked UFOs the past 50+ years worked for the CIA? No, of course not and I never said that, did I? But I also think it doesn't make sense that the CIA would secretly employ hundreds of journalists and scientists and then not expect anything in return from them. At least a few of them could be called into service as authority figures to debunk UFOs, just as the CIA's Robertson Panel recommended in 1953. Menzel is an obvious example. There is no clear proof he was a government UFO debunker, but there is clear documentation that he was a secret government consultant with a very high security clearance dating clear back to WWII. His public UFO debunking days began only months before the Robertson Panel and eventually included misrepresenting and lying about even his own puzzling UFO sightings in order to explain them away. Many of Menzel's "explanations" were so unscientific that they had Dr. James McDonald ripping his hair out. Why would a top- notch scientist like Menzel be so dishonest and unscientific? Indeed, that is the question. Ignorance or an honest difference of opinion? No, Menzel wasn't some common Internet goofball. Menzel must have known better. So again, what was the real motivation? Since organizations like the CIA had secret spy scientists and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely - From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:32:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 06:42:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely - >Source: The Daily of The University of Washington-Seattle, USA >http://tinyurl.com/8xggh >November 15, 2005 >UW Professors: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely >A new book authored by two aUW professors says complicated life >in the universe is rare, but not everyone is giving up >By Tia Ghose >Ever wondered how life began and whether there is life on other >planets? You're not alone, but the curiosity rarely turns into a >career. >The UW astrobiology program gives hope to would-be professional >stargazers. Astrobiology -- the study of life in the universe -- >looks for scientific answers to questions like "How did life >begin on this planet?" and "Are we alone in the universe?" The >field builds on knowledge across several disciplines. >UW biology professor Peter Ward and UW astronomy professor >Donald Brownlee believe discovering intelligent aliens on other >planets is unlikely. In Rare Earth, a book the two co-authored, >they say the conditions needed for complex life are so narrow >that microbial life may be common, but complicated life in the >universe is likely rare. >Not everyone in the astrobiology program has given up on finding >extra-terrestrial intelligence. It is hard to know what >conditions are necessary for life with only the example of >terrestrial organisms, said astronomy professor Woody Sullivan. > >"To be in astrobiology, you have to be a little bit of an >optimist, you have to be a speculator," Sullivan said. >The UW graduate certificate program in astrobiology started in >1999 with funding from a National Science Foundation (NSF) >grant, said Billy Brazelton, a graduate student in oceanography. >The program also receives funds from the NASA Institute of >Astrobiology and matching funds from the University. >The NSF grant that funds the program will expire in five years. >Because it is an interdisciplinary program, finding new funding >for graduate students could be difficult, Brazelton said. >"It's a very romantic concept, but to also be able to have >funding to study it is a really special opportunity," said Jelte >Harnmeijer, a graduate student in Earth and space sciences who >studies 3.8 billion-year-old rocks in an attempt to understand >how simple bacterial life on earth formed. >Erosion has erased most traces of early organisms on Earth, so >Harnmeijer's research takes him where the oldest rocks still >have chemical evidence of this early life, including remote >parts of Australia, South Africa and Greenland. >According to the astrobiology program's Web site, students >receive a traditional education in one of the participating >departments -- aeronautics and astronautics, astronomy, >atmospheric, Earth and space sciences, history (of science), >microbiology and oceanography. >Chasing down the origins of life takes knowledge from many >different disciplines, so graduate students also take >astrobiology and interdisciplinary classes, said astronomy >graduate student Nathan Kaib. >Brazelton studies a deep-sea thermal vent system called the Lost >City. The 200-foot limestone towers house anaerobic microbial >life that use methane and hydrogen for metabolism, he said. >Brazelton hopes that by studying life in a strange environment >on earth, he can understand better what life on other planets >might be like. >"If an unusual system on earth surprised us, then we would >definitely have trouble finding life on Mars," he said. Notice that the word UFO isn't mentioned and that the assumption is made that no matter where or how long ago life began anywhere else, there has been no migration and no colonization. This is despite the fact that there are stars billions of years older than the sun. What egos the academics have... almost as bad as Menzel expecting that, if there were visitors, they would want to talk to the National Academy of Sciences, of which both he and Condon were members. How can one evaluate probability on the basis of data on one planet or one solar system? Throw dice? I hope claims like these are brought up on Coast to Coast when I
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Dozens Of UFOs Reported Over Wales - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:33:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 06:44:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Dozens Of UFOs Reported Over Wales - White >Source: The Western Mail - Cardiff, Wales, UK >http://tinyurl.com/9hjzq >Nov 16 2005 >Dozens Of UFOs Reported Over Wales >Robin Turner >Western Mail <snip> >"A black unknown object fell out while he was at the >dentist... but he had no fillings."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 22:28:12 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 06:47:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rimmer >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:27:49 -0600 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:04:45 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>So I suppose you have all sorts of 'empirical evidence' about >>the complete absence of UFO imagery and information in British >>life in the 1950s, do you? Well let's see it, or else give those >>of us who were actually alive and sentient in Britain in the >>1950s some credit for being able to see, hear and read what was >>going on around us at the time. >You just won't give up, will you, John? Having lost the >argument, you throw a red herring into the rhetorical stream. >Where would psychosocial ufology be without this species of >fish? What are you talking about Jerry? I claim, from personal experience, that there was widespread UFO imagery in popular culture in Britain in the 1950s. You deny this, but offer no "empirical evidence", and instead start talking about red- herrings. To my mind that is almost the dictionary definition of a red-herring. >>>There is a lesson to be learned from pelicanists' frantic but >>>failed effort to link Gill's use of "mothership" with UFO >>>literature. You will recall their insistence, based on nothing >>>except deeply held beliefs and instincts, that Gill - his own >>>testimony to the contrary - could have gotten the phrase only >>>from ufological jargon. When we demonstrated otherwise with >>>actual evidence, they - here's a shock - didn't pause for one >>>second's blink. We're back to the same stuck record on a >>>pelicanist phonograph player long overdue for replacement. One >>>need not claim psychic powers to have predicted that. And >>>speaking of the psychic: What is this "actual evidence" you are blathering on about? We were discussing whether Gill came across the phrase 'mothership' in a ufological or nautical context. He said he hadn't read Adamski, which proves nothing (see Peter Rogerson's posting elsewhere on the list) but this doesn't provide evidence (or even better "empirical evidence") that he heard the word in a nautical context. My guess, on the balance of probabilities - Crutwell's fascination with Adamski and the widespread use of UFO imagery in Britain at the time (oh, sorry, that's a 'Red Herring') - is that he heard the phrase from a UFO context, but, as I said before: >>It is largely irrelevant where Gill got the phrase 'mothership' >>from, >Well, that's good to know, though rather late in the discussion >to concede as much. You've wasted a whole lot of our time in the >meantime. No Jerry, I only seem to have wasted your time, as you are incapable of letting any comment of mine go by without a long and involved argument. >>What is interesting is the way in which the neo-ETHers try to >>deny the widespread knowledge of UFOs amongst the general >>public. >Ah, guess what kind of fish this is! It's actually an empirical observation of the way people react on this List >We'll let "neo-ETHers," whoever or whatever they're supposed to >be, pass, out of boredom with this tired rhetorical dodge. Let >us go on to another rhetorical trick: "knowledge of UFOs," left >conveniently undefined. To summarise: ETHers are people who have decided that UFO reports represent sightings of solid structured objects which have characteristics which imply that they could not have been constructed on earth, and therefore claim that they must come from another planet. Neo-ETHers are people who have decided that UFO reports represent sightings of solid structured objects which have characteristics which imply that they could not have been constructed on earth, but will do anything rather than suggest that they come from another planet. Is that clear? >What is "knowledge of UFOs" as opposed to "awareness of UFOs"? >Awareness of UFOs is, as we all know, widespread. Knowledge of >UFOs, on the other hand, demands precise language and >definition, as Greg Sandow - in the post John keeps not >responding to - has already noted. In Gill's case, there was >awareness of UFOs, but there was not much knowledge of them at >the time of the sighting (and not a great deal later, according >to Gill's testimony, which not even debunkers have challenged). I have read this post, and quite frankly I can see nothing in it worth responding to, as it is merely Sandow's personal observation, but as you are as determined to waste my time as I am to waste yours, here goes: GS - Often enough in the past I've noted how believers in the psychosocial hypothesis ignore standard social science methodology. All, of course, while claiming to be rational and scientific. JR - Well, that's his opinion, can't see anything worth responding to there. GS - They start with assumptions about how widespread UFO imagery and ideas might be. Assumptions, of course, that they haven't checked. They don't even think of seeking measurements of how prevalent these things might be." JR - Is this any different from the neo-ETHers assumptions that UFO imagery is only accessible to the favoured few who read the works of Jerome Clark and contribute to UFO Internet lists? Presumably you have measurements on how narrowly confined UFO imagery was in Britain in the 1950s? GS - Then they make assumptions about how ideas and images spread, and how they influence people. Assumptions, that, once again, might have no basis in standard social science theory. They don't think to check the literature to find out how social scientists have theorized about these things, or how data may or may not support particular theories. JR - Is this meant to be the killer paragraph? Maybe I'm just not as impressed with "standard social science theory" as Mr Sandow is. Social scientists have produced numerous theories about the ways in which UFO imagery and ideas has spread and influenced people. Some of them have been posted on this list, often to a great deal of criticism. GS - And now, for a change, we have some actual research. Data! Facts! JR - What Data! Facts!? It's just amazing how cavalier sceptics can be about social science, sociology, in particular. (Though their ignorance of psychology - sometimes extending even to a lack of basic common sense about people - is pretty notable, too. If psychology is a social science, that is; not sure that's quite the proper classification.). If I started blabbering about physics the way they blabber about sociology, they wouldn't stop laughing for a week. JR - Again, Mr Sandow's opinion, to which of course, he is perfectly entitled. >In my daily life - I am sure this is true of all Listfolk - I >run into people all the time with awareness of UFOs, but few >outside ufology with actual knowledge of the arcana of the >subject. Most of us would define "UFO knowledge" as education >in the subject through reasonably extensive reading, thought, >and exposure to the relevant information. "UFO awareness," on >the other hand, is something else, comparable to, say, one's >"awareness" of string theory or hiphop culture (or whatever) >versus one's "knowledge" of it. Here's the nub. In order to be familiar with concepts such as "mother ships" one has to have the depth of knowledge displayed by Jerome Clark. In order to produce this remarkable argument he suggests that "most of us would define "UFO knowledge" as education in the subject through reasonably extensive reading, thought, and exposure to the relevant information." Well I for one wouldn't. You may like to think that there is a sort of ufological elite, with you and Greg Sandow, and Richard Hall and a few others, at the top, the likes of me somewhere just below the snow line, and then the vast mass of the population basking in ignorance. (I would suggest here that Mr Clark's introduction of string theory and hip-hop represents the production of a roseate piscine) This is just not so. People have a spectrum of knowledge about a subject ranging from total immersion to total ignorance. What evidence do you have that no- one, other that a person who read a wide range of specialist UFO literature, would have come across the term "mothership" in a UFO context in their general reading? And please don't mention the various Internet indexing tools unless you can demonstrate that they cover the kinds of popular newspapers and magazines that are most likely to print UFO related stories. In fact, let's widen this out a bit, as I think concentration on this one phrase hides the broader issue. Peter has pointed out one simple way in which people with no interest at in UFO would have been exposed to UFO imagery in Manchester in the 1950s, through a children's ride in a department store. I can't recall that the Liverpool branch of Lewis's had such an item, but there was certainly plenty of other UFO imagery around at the time, including, I remember an ice-cream van painted over with rockets, flying saucers, space-men in bubble helmets, etc. Martin Kottmeyer, in his various articles in Magonia, Magonia Supplement and elsewhere has chronicled this from the American perspective - I think there's a great deal of qualitative evidence in the material he has studied. Unfortunately no-one seems to have done such a comprehensive survey of UFO imagery in British popular culture, but as we are two countries divided by a common language, I am sure that a great deal of what Kottmeyer says applied in Britain as well, as most of the films, for instance, were distributed in Britain, along with popular magazines and children's comic books; as well as a range of home grown titles. >As Greg Sandow has observed, claims that arcane knowledge and >images from ufology pervade society are empirically testable >through the methodologies of psychology and sociology, in which >so-called psychosocial ufologists have never demonstrated much >interest or appreciation, opting instead for the model of >literary criticism. I haven't seen any of these empirically testable studies that UFO images don't pervade society, either. And notice the weasley use of the word 'arcane' above. >In the specific case of Father Gill, this >hypothetical arcane knowledge of UFOs could not be demonstrated. >It does not follow, of course, that _no_ UFO witness possesses >arcane UFO knowledge; the lesson is that such knowledge needs to >shown with actual evidence and that things about UFO witnesses, >as with all human beings, are not so simple that they can be >declared as true an ocean away and without real data bearing on >the question. 'Arcane', again. Well maybe Jerry thinks 'mothership' a particularly 'arcane' expression, I don't. And even if it was, don't forget that Gill was closely associated with a man who wrote articles for the 'arcane' Flying Saucer Review. And where does this "an ocean away" come from? Gill was British, I am British. Admittedly he was from the South Coast, and in the 1950s I was living in Liverpool, but as far as I know there is no ocean between those two points. Talk sense. >>>The incident serves as an object lesson, underscoring the >>>conclusion that so-called psychosocial ufology is not science >>>(as Greg Sandow elegantly observed on this List on October 28, >>>to thunderous pelicanist silence), it's just mind-reading. Maybe >>>a better name for it would be clairvoyant ufology. >>Well, it can join all the thunderous Clarkian silences when >>you've neatly <snipped>any awkward question I've asked you on >>this List. >Ah, this sorry and tedious dodge again, declared but never >demonstrated. Besides being boring, I'm sure it's very boring to be reminded of all the questions you've dodged over the years. Live with it. >it's hypocritical, coming as >it does from someone who just can't seem to get around to >addressing the deeply pertinent issues raised by Greg Sandow >bearinag on the very legitimacy of so-called psychosocial >ufology. See above. I can't see anything particularly pertinent there, except that Mr Sandow doesn't agree with me. I can live with that. >>>And maybe it's time simply to let them continue to gaze into the >>>crystal ball while the rest of us attend to the actual business >>>of research, investigation, and empirically based analysis. >>Yes. But as you tell us, we'll all be dead and buried before >>anyone is able to make any sense out of it. >Thank you; you have eloquently outlined the difference between >you and me. >I believe that the answers to complex scientific questions are >best addressed by trained scientists with full access to the >resources (including extensive funding) that scientists need and >which they employ in investigating phenomena. You believe, on >the other hand, that the answers can be arrived at by guessing >as you go along, your guesses all shaped by your antipathy to >the very question being addressed. If scientist had extensive funding to conduct research, where do you suggest they could start? Is the only reason they haven't got the funding the famous 'giggle-factor', or is it something deeper, like that they cannot see any potentially worthwhile approach? >Temperamentally, I am patient. I hope to be alive when science >decides to devote more than six months to UFO inquiry (at the >end of which time it was left with a series of deeply puzzling, >still unsolved, and highly suggestive cases; see, for example, >the Condon report) and is allowed to do its work. The wheels of >science turn slowly - after centuries science still doesn't >understand ball lightning; biologists still debate the >mechanisms of evolution (proof, according to creationist >pelicanists, that evolution is a fiction), and so on and on and >on and on and on - but eventually, in most cases, they reach >their destination. But scientists don't dispute the existence of ball lighting (you tell me), biologists don't deny the processes of evolution. We are not talking about complex details of generally accepted scientific principles, we are talking about the very existence of an unknown phenomenon, one which according to the neo-ETHers, is capable of producing "structured craft" with performance characteristics beyond anything yet built on earth. >Unlike pelicanism, science does not pretend to false certainty, >which is one reason pelicanists have so little interest in it. >Much more fun to make sweeping assertions about things they >can't demonstrate, even if they're so simple as the origins and >meanings of the term "mothership," denigrate all those who >dissent, and never give up the argument even after it's long >lost. Now _that_ is pathetic. Every day on this List I see "sweeping assertions" about things that cannot be demonstrated, such as the absence of any evidence that information about UFOs was widely spread in popular culture in Britain in the 1950s. I was there, I saw it. I see "sweeping assertions" that a missionary, whose immediate clerical superior was a contributor to Flying Saucer Review, would know nothing about UFOs. I see a desperation to claim that only people who studied UFOs in great depth would be exposed to concepts such as 'mothership'.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: BS In The Desert - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:29:26 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 06:52:11 -0500 Subject: Re: BS In The Desert - Gehrman >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:07:10 -0500 >Subject: UFO UpDate: BS In The Desert >Kevin Randle has posted his response to Nick Redfern's >book, Body Snatchers In The Desert, at his Blog: >http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2005/11/bs-in-desert.html Hi Kevin, Good article. I wonder if you could comment on the post I previously sent UpDates. List members didn't respond but I find it significant that Michael Maelstrom predicted Nick's thesis nine years before it was published. Ed ----- From UpDates post: "Below you'll find an excerpt from a letter sent to the Pentagon by Michael Maelstrom and cross-posted along related Fido and Internet forums during the week of March 18, 1996. For the full text, go to: http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/roswell.htm Seems the Redfern plotline has been around many moons. Has this been mentioned on the List before? William Sawers sent me a copy and that's the first I've heard of this prophecy. Ed --- Between 1994 and 1996, the Pentagon scanner-boys have been amassing public opinions on the Roswell case, with one goal in mind: to discover precisely which story todays generation will most-likely be willing to accept concerning Roswell. The data has been accumulated and the conclusion is that most people will accept a combination of the following factors: 1. High ranking U.S official covering up shady activities involving: a. inhumane experiments b. nuclear related c. sales of illegal weaponry d. incompetent/dangerous use of highly volatile material The story given above is a variation on the sort of story the U.S will try to release to the public in order to convince us all once and for all, the Roswell case was not an UFO.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 NSA UFO Affidavit From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:19:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:00:57 -0500 Subject: NSA UFO Affidavit ----- From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> To: Steven Aftergood <aftergood.nul> Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 8:34 PM Subject: NSA UFO Affidavit >From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:43:45 -0500 >Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/14/05 Steven: I am sorry to inform you that both your 14 Nov. Secrecy News and Leonard David's article about the NSA affidavit are grossly misleading. Here are some facts: 1. The affidavit was first released in response to an FOIA request in about 1981. It was about 75% blacked out. Judge Gerhardt Gesell who saw none of the NSA's 156 UFO documents, agreed they should not be released saying that The Public interest in Disclosure was far outweighed by the threat to national secuirty should the documents (he saw none) be released. The Court of Appeals agreed with the lower court, again not seeing any of the 156 documents. 2. In about 1996, the NSA in response to EO 12958 , decided to release a much less censored (perhaps only 20% though not as neat as your version)) version of the affidavit,and also released all 156 NSA UFO documents that had previously been withheld in their entirety. Unfortunately they were all almost completed censored, this time with white out so that typically only one or two lines per page could be read. From conversations with the NSA FOIA office, I gather they were unhappy with my showing the heavily redacted version of the affidavit on TV.It is impossible to believe that the 95+% of the documents dealt only with sources and methods. 3. In the mid 1980s I filed with the CIA a request for the 23 CIA UFO documents discovered by the NSA in response to Judge Gesell's order to search..These, of course, could not be released by the NSA. It took 2 years for the CIA to release 9 documents which were, believe it or not press abstracts of Eastern European newspaper articles about UFOs which the Soviets had the day they were released. I appealed their witholding of the 14 CIA UFO documents and after 3 years received portions of 4. On some pages all but 8 or 10 words were blacked out. On one page they said deny in toto.. couldn't find even 8 words to release... I filed again after 12958 and found no new words at all. In short then this is not new news, and, not to mention the 95%+ of the whited out documents, is very misleading. Where is the text of those? What is being witheld by the CIA?. So, yes, Steven, there is a cosmic Watergate. I should point out the 1969 comment by Air Force General Carroll Bolender that "Reports of UFOs which could affect national security are made in accordance with JANAP 146 or Air Force Manual 55-11 and are not part of the Blue Book System". The Air Force has never told the public that they had another channel besides Project Blue Book. I think some clarification is in order. If not, please let me know what is in the other CIA UFO documents and in the 95% + of the 156 NSA UFO documents. Most cordially, Stanton T. Friedman Nuclear Physicist www.stantonfriedman.com I had a Q clearance for 14 years and have been to 20 document archives. 506-457-0232 --- From: Aftergood, Steven To: Stanton Friedman Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 9:00 PM Subject: RE: NSA UFO Affidavit, resent
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Rendlesham 25th Anniversary From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 05:00:12 -0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:18:00 -0500 Subject: Rendlesham 25th Anniversary We are approaching the 25th anniversary of the Rendlesham Forest UFO incident. There's a lot of interest in this. Some ufologists are planning an anniversary vigil. The Forestry Commission is organising a commemorative event. Peter Robbins and Larry Warren are giving a series of talks. Media interest is building and I've already given some interviews on the subject, as has Georgina Bruni. But as the anniversary of Britain's most famous UFO event approaches, controversy rages, with believers and skeptics as polarized as ever. Many questions remain. Are some of the witnesses more credible than others? Are the radiation readings taken at the landing site significant? Were any sightings correlated by radar? What happened to the material taken to Ramstein? Was the base on a heightened state of alert? Do any of the skeptical theories (lighthouse, meteors, police car, etc) stand up to analysis? Are there USAF or MOD documents on the incident that have yet to be released? When I ran the British Government's UFO Project, I reopened the investigation into this incident. But I wasn't able to resolve the mystery one way or the other. The run up to the anniversary will be an interesting time for ufology, but for all the words written on this incident, one key question remains. 25 years on, what do we really know about the Rendlesham Forest UFO incident? Best wishes,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: BS In The Desert - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:13:14 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:14:41 -0500 Subject: Re: BS In The Desert - Bourdais >Kevin Randle has posted his response to Nick Redfern's >book, Body Snatchers In The Desert, at his Blog: >http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2005/11/bs-in-desert.html >ebk Ebk and List, Thank you to Kevin for this review, on which I agree entirely, as he knows already since we have exchanged views about it. I have gathered my own arguments,on Roswll and on the book, in an article which has been published in the last issue of the Mufon UFO journal. It is now on the web, in a slightly longer version, at: http://www.ovni.ch/home/frame4.htm I wish also to recommend reading the excellent article of Bob Durant in the last issue of IUR, Doty And The Body Snatchers.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 05:30:51 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:17:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Lehmberg >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:17:59 +0000 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:49:27 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 15:00:46 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <snip> >We may disagree about how reasonable or unreasonable the >assumptions were (given my understanding of human nature they >seem quite plausible to me); however, I am not saying whether >the policy is good or bad, moral or immoral, defensible or >indefensible. We tend to project our notions of right or wrong >onto others, and to assume evil motives when the truth often is >far simpler... and more human. Your realistic options are very >few when you have a tiger by the tail. Sir; We've spent a lifetime observing a furiously vicious beast, this tiger, effortlessly bends around to perform, with teeth and tongue, necessary cleanup duties on its own anal pore, and yet believe we are _remotely_ safe holding fast to its tail?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Rimmer's 2006 Ufological Schedule - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 05:37:10 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:19:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Rimmer's 2006 Ufological Schedule - Lehmberg >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:55:15 +0000 (GMT) >Subject: Rimmer's 2006 Ufological Schedule >Source: Stuart Miller's Blog: UFO Disinfo R Us.com >http://tinyurl.com/9pks7 >Monday, November 14, 2005 >The John Rimmer Ufological Schedule for 2006 >by >Stuart Miller >John has recently been labelled a Ufological dinosaur on a UK >message board. <snip> >I hope John that you appreciate this gesture for the kindness >that it is and I look forward to watching your performances in >the coming months. Alfred. Are you ready? Mr. Rimmer will be fine as long as he doesn't sneer. Past that I'll do everything _I_ can to drown him in the broccoli water.<g>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:56:31 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:22:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Hall >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:34:19 -0800 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:31:11 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:14:53 -0800 >>>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>Maybe when we see some academic debunking UFOs >>>under the guise of science, we should be wondering if this is >>>really an independent opinion, or another example of what the >>>1953 CIA's Robertson Panel recommended, using authority >>>figures to debunk UFOs. >>Why must everything be a conspiracy? Haven't we seen plenty of >>examples in human affairs (including academia) of simple >>blindness, ignorance, prejudice, self-protection, fear of new >>ideas? Or for that matter, honest disagreement? >I don't recall saying anything about _all_ academic debunkers >working for the CIA. David, I didn't say you did. >The part that was snipped and you didn't respond to was: I did respond; you just didn't get my message. (I snip, therefore I am.) >1. The Church Senate investigation in the 1970s which found that >some 500 journalists were on the CIA payroll. >2. Roy Craig's comment in his UFO debunking book that he was >approached by CIA recruiters when he had just received his >graduate degree and asked to be a CIA spy/asset in either >academia or industry. (In fact, from Craig's remarks, it sounds >like they were pretty much guaranteeing them positions in >addition to extra money.) I would presume that Craig wasn't the >only person so approached. Thus, like the journalists, there >were probably large numbers of scientists also secretly employed >by the CIA as spy/assets outside of the CIA proper. >I might also add that both 1 & 2 are strictly illegal. The CIA >was forbidden by law to engage in any domestic spying. But >obviously they did, and it probably extended into other arenas >as well, such as politics. Yes, I lived through those times and experienced my own incident of illegal activities by the CIA when they scrutinized me, then classified their report on me beyond my ability to obtain. I was spied upon by the CIA. By the way, I also worked on Sen. Frank Church's presidential campaign at a different time. <CIA spy in classroom incident snipped.> >So take your choice: the professor's office was bugged or this >guy who nobody knew spied on us. This isn't paranoia. It's just >plain fact. I think it is incredibly naive of you to think that >such things did not go on, and this was just one relatively >insignificant example. I didn't claim that such things do not go on. But they have to be understood in the context of the times. >Now does this indicate that _all_ journalists and _all_ scientists >who have debunked UFOs the past 50+ years worked for the CIA? >No, of course not and I never said that, did I? But I also think >it doesn't make sense that the CIA would secretly employ >hundreds of journalists and scientists and then not expect >anything in return from them. At least a few of them could be >called into service as authority figures to debunk UFOs, just as >the CIA's Robertson Panel recommended in 1953. Coulda been, but where's the evidence for it. My whole point is that you don't need to invoke a conspiracy when there are much simpler and very human alternative explanations available. >Menzel is an obvious example. There is no clear proof he was a >government UFO debunker, but there is clear documentation that >he was a secret government consultant with a very high security >clearance dating clear back to WWII. His public UFO debunking >days began only months before the Robertson Panel and eventually >included misrepresenting and lying about even his own puzzling >UFO sightings in order to explain them away. >Many of Menzel's "explanations" were so unscientific that they >had Dr. James McDonald ripping his hair out. Why would a top- >notch scientist like Menzel be so dishonest and unscientific? >Indeed, that is the question. Ignorance or an honest difference >of opinion? No, Menzel wasn't some common Internet goofball. >Menzel must have known better. So again, what was the real >motivation? Well, I knew and interacted with both men and I find it very far-fetched to think Menzel was any sort of paid government debunker. Why did he give such outrageous explanations? Because he was a fanatical disbeliever (like some on this list), so convinced that the whole subject was nonsense that he practically frothed at the mouth about it. We also had insight into his personality since some of his graduate students were NICAP members. I feel exactly the same about the Colorado UFO Project (Condon Report). It was not clearly and simply a government debunking effort (though some individuals helped it along in that direction). You have to look at the human beings for answers. It was a failure of humamn beings based on deep-seated prejudices. >Since organizations like the CIA had secret spy scientists and >journalists working for them, why is it so hard to believe that >a Menzel or a Klass could have been one of them?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Filer's Files #47 - 2005 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:56:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:35:04 -0500 Subject: Filer's Files #47 - 2005 Filer's Files #47 -- 2005 George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International November 15, 2005, Webmaster Chuck Warren www.nationalufocenter.com Mars Polar Ice is Melting This week's files cover: Pope Benedict says, "Creation Was an Intelligent Project by God," October's UFO 'Sightings Map, Earth's and Mar's Polar Ice is Melting, Mars alien artifacts, If It Isn't Aurora =96 What Is It? In addition, witnesses saw UFOs over California, Florida, Indiana, Missouri, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia. Many witnesses saw UFOs in Argentina, Canada, the Caribbean Sea, Mexico, Puerto Rico, and the United Kingdom. The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world. These Files assume that extraterrestrial intelligent life not only exists, but my hypothesis is that of the over one hundred UFOs reported each week, many represent alien craft. The United States Air Force Project conducted a worldwide investigation of UFOs from 1947 until December 1969, when it disbanded its investigative team. We are continuing the investigation. Pope says, "Creation Was an Intelligent Project by God!" VATICAN CITY =96 On November 10, 2005, Pope Benedict XVI waded into the evolution debate in the United States, saying the universe was made as an "intelligent project" and criticizing those who say its creation was without direction. The pope focused on scriptural readings that said God's love was seen in the "marvels of creation." He quoted St. Basil the Great as saying that some people, "fooled by the atheism that they carry inside of them, imagine a universe free of direction and order, as if at the mercy of chance. Reichmuth's October UFO 'Sighting Map' Steve Reichmuth writes," This is the raw data presented visually based on the excellent work performed by Peter Davenport NUFORC, and the MUFON CMS data bases. I hope this will provide you with a 'big picture' for all directors in their local areas. There was one entity sighting in Vaudreuil-Dorion, Quebec, Canada on October 26, 2005. Two witnesses - two entities - from the NUFORC data base.(see Canada below) The Tinley Park 'mini' flap' in West Chicago has continued full blast (that huge red blob on the map in the middle of West Chicago - so many symbols plotted it spills into surrounding counties due to physical constraints of the map itself!). Some 40 sightings in this area on October 1st alone! These are a continuing phenomenon from late September 2005. The reports read of similar objects (red lights)- in a similar mini-flap in Cleveland, Ohio in July 2005. These objects were seen by many again during the World Series baseball games in Chicago. I guess ET is a baseball fan? Contrasting, Houston has been relatively quiet. A humorous comment, but on a more serious note, this Chicago activity appears ominous. Contrasting just as remarkable is Seattle and northwest Washington state in October was very strangely quiet. This has been historically consistently a very busy area. Did they 'fly the coop' at that present time for Chicago? Assuming a degree of these reports are genuine ET craft...does this mean they have a limited number of craft with which to work? Phoenix, Arizona has shown a large concentration of sightings. Many around Surprise, Arizona. Second only to Chicago. The proportion of disk/oval sightings is up in comparison to other shapes compared to previous monthly weather maps. The number of triangle/boomerang objects sighted seems constant. In North Carolina and Kansas, note worthy are similar reports at the same time and location from both NUFORC and MUFON CMS data bases. The most remarkable sighting (to me) in October was in Houston, Texas, on October 15th. An older couple had a very close encounter with a large disk object (CE-2). It effected the couple and their pets. When they inspected their back yard that morning, being too upset to sleep or venture outside during the early morning in darkness, they immediately noticed the water level in their large back yard swimming pool had dropped 6 inches. I plotted this sighting as a 'landing' on the October map though this is inconclusive. It is conclusive however though there were physical traces left behind according to this report. "ttp://www.nuforc.org/webreports/047/S47045.html When I plot each map, a disturbing thought is always in the back of my mind. I always try to remain as objective as is possible, but the numerous sightings to me could also each represent an abduction of a human being too - reports by witnesses could actually be of a craft performing an abduction in progress, or an object entering or departing the scene? And these are only the ones witnessed & reported too. Tip of an iceberg? There is another subtle pattern emerging too I have noticed. A given shaped object (say triangles) will appear in usually two locations in separate states roughly 500 to 600 miles apart on the same date/night/morning - usually a few hours apart. If abductions are occurring here, could this mean the sightings correlated to abduction location/level of activity mean one object can only perform two (max. three?)abductions (either single or groups of individuals from one location) on any given night between dusk and dawn? There is still so much we do not know......yet! :) Another possibility that must always be considered also in the many Chicago sightings 'mini-flap' is the possibility of a mass Internet hoax being perpetrated? Local investigators, I am confident will pursue this raw data. Thanks to Steve Reichmuth Mufon Northern California SSD, NUFORC, and the MUFON CMS data bases. "Mars and Earth's Polar Ice is Melting Both Mars and Earth's Poles are melting at a surprising rate. Most scientists believe that humans, by burning fossil fuels such as coal and petroleum, are largely to blame for the increase in carbon dioxide creating a warmer Earth. If this is the real reason the Earth is warming something similar may be occurring on Mars. We are told Mars is a dead planet without any present volcanic or tectonic activity. This feature casts a shadow over the Martian terrain coming from a hex icon shaped opening indicating this may be an artificial power station or underground exhaust outlet. The possibility of intelligent Martians cannot be overlooked. There is another possibility that the heavy flare activity on the sun is causing the warming throughout the solar system. NASA reports for three Mars summers in a row, deposits of frozen ice near Mars' south pole have shrunk from the previous year's size, suggesting a climate change in progress." Because a Martian year is twice as long as an Earth year, the shrinking of the Martian polar ice cap has been ongoing for at least six Earth years. The shrinking is substantial. According to Michael Malin, principal investigator for the Mars Orbiter Camera, the polar ice cap is shrinking at "a prodigious rate." Mars Alien Artifacts Mars has hexagon openings that can be seen in Aerial photography from the Mars orbiting satellite JPL/NASA The structure shown below is located at a latitude of image center: 6.32 S 75.02 W This structure is Mars hexagon triangle, and imaged in 1999-06-14 at 06:56:29.58 The image is Traverse across east portion of Western Candor Chasma. /These files speculate that life once existed on Mars http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/ab1_m04/images/M0201705.html If It Isn't Aurora =96 What Is It? Geoff Richardson writes, "A recent weather satellite photograph shows the contrail of an aircraft leaving Area 51 in Nevada and progressing eastwards across the U.S., over the Atlantic and onward over Europe to Russia and China." Whatever the aircraft is, it is certainly capable of speeds of 8,000 m.p.h. plus =96 (calculations based on the distance and times of the satellite photographs show this.) Perhaps, despite the previous non-existence of any evidence which supported the existence of "Aurora", the satellite photographs do prove that an aircraft with incredible capabilities does exist and it is based in Area 51. Thanks to Geoff Richardson "ttp://www.thewhyfiles.net/aurora.htm UFO Report Released by US Air Force The National Military Command Center Washington DC 20301 Memo for Record - 29 October 1975 Subject: AFB Penetration 1. At 290200 EST AFOC informed NMCC that an unidentified helicopter, possibly two, had been sighted flying low over Loring AFB Maine, from Canadian territory with one helicopter landing briefly in proximity to a weapons storage area. Attempts to locate or identify the intruding helicopters by a National Guard helicopter were unsuccessful. 2. An Army Nation Guard helo was called in to assist in locating the unidentified helo (s). 3. NORAD was informed of the incident by SAC, requested and received authority from Canadian officials to proceed into Canadian airspace if necessary to locate the intruder. 4. At 0404 SAC Command Center informed NMCC that the army helo assisting on the scene had not sighted the unidentified helo(s) 5. A similar incident was reported at Loring the evening of 28 October 75. Signed C. D. Roberts Jr. Brigadier General, USMC\ Deputy Director for Operations NMCC Thanks to Henry J. Schuren Research California Cigar Shaped Light and sphere MODESTO -- I was taking pictures outside of a church located on 16th Street ( near I Street downtown )and in one of the takes about one half of the image was of sky. Upon viewing this particular photo, I noticed that there was an object in the upper right part of it. This object looked very interesting once I zoomed in closer on it. It looks like a spherical object that is surrounded by smaller objects that are arranged in a triangle around the sphere.I did not see this UFO, it merely was in the photo that I took. By the looks of it, I think that it would have been easily visible if one were looking in that location. I have also made an auto-enhanced copy of the large version, and this shows the solid objects more clearly and with higher definition Thanks to R. David Anderson Florida -- Five Hovering Bright Lights NAVARRE =96 On November 7, 2005, at 6:25p.m., I was sitting on my friends porch when out of the corner of my eye I saw five bright white lights to the northeast that hovered in formation for about five minutes, then slowly faded away. When the lights were spotted, I called another friend who was at his house, and he happened to have a camera to capture some of it on tape. Thank you to the witness for granting permission to run his fine video footage and the report._ Thanks to Brian Vike http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews=3Darticle=3D3479 Indiana Circular White Lights NEW ALBANY -- I always see them at the same place no matter what time of night it is. I take my girl friend home and we both see them. We saw them for a straight two weeks and that was four weeks ago. On November 10, 2005, now with a two week period of not seeing them we see them, we saw them again and they are twice of bigger light and we have no clue if they are UFOs, satellites. I don't think that they are planes since they are in the same spot every night. If anybody has any information to this sequence of sightings that we have please tell me through my e-mail and I will contact you shortly to reply with what you have told me. Thanks to Brian Vike, Director HBCC UFO Research Home. Footage copyright Missouri =96 Radars Fail ST. LOUIS -- When radar failed at Air Traffic Control Center early Wednesday, November 9, 2005 Olathe controllers helped watch the skies there for a short time. The cause of the problem was unclear. A large flock of migrating birds could be responsible. So could the weather. Whatever happened, the radar in Weldon Spring, Mo., read 3,000 to 5,000 objects flying over the area, overwhelming the system. The center there controls traffic for Lambert-St. Louis International Airport and other nearby airfields. The Air Route Traffic Control Center in Olathe took responsibility for St. Louis' air space for 15 minutes, until controllers there could switch to a backup system. Thanks to The Kansas City Star, James Hart http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/13127033.htm Nevada =96 Bright Orange Object RACHEL -- After enjoying a burger at the Little Ali-Inn, on the way to our truck we looked up into the sky and noticed a very bright orange, stationary light in the eastern sky on October 30, 2005 at 8 PM. We joked about UFOs and headed down Highway 375, and saw a bright orange light that was in the west now. It changed to yellow! Thanks to "ttp://www.tellmewhereonearth.com/ We stopped and focused on the lights with binoculars. They were pulsating bright yellow like molten, fiery, white-yellow metal with an aura of red around it. Suddenly there was another light smaller and a very bright yellow light that appeared about a foot away (our earthly perspective) to the left of the bigger fiery bright yellow light. We turned around to the east and there was another bright stationary light. We thought the big light must have moved to the east from the west while we were driving. We continued down the highway and were suddenly startled by something big and bat-like that just whizzed past. While we talked, another one whizzed by that was too big for bats. We stopped at a store in Alamo and the big bright light was still there, only bigger and brighter. Now, that was not a conventional airplane. Then it blinked out! Thanks to Brian Vike http://www.hbccufo.org New Jersey - 15 UFOs Around Diamond NJ TURNPIKE -- We were on the New Jersey Turnpike headed south coming from Newark on October 31, 2005, at 7 PM, when we noticed a bright star light with a lot of disc shaped objects surrounding the object and just hovering in the sky. They had three lights, two red ones on each side and a yellow one, they followed the bright star shaped object. It looked as if they were protecting the star. The sky was clear and we could see many stars but we couldn't really see the flying objects very well. All we noticed were like disc shapes and the lights and how they moved around the stars. There were around 15 disc shapes protecting the star and they just kept flying around or some were just standing still in the sky. Thanks to Brian Vike "ttp://www.hbccufo.org New York =96 Bright Lights POUGHKEEPSIE -- On Halloween, October 31, 2005, two college students observed a bright, orange light the size of a large planet from 6:00 to 7:30 PM. It was large and moving erratically for up to 30 minutes over Vassar College Farm. It was moving, stopping, hovering, then moving fast with great agility, going up and down, side to side, and in curving arcs with awkward angles. There was also a sharp, crisp, but slow-moving streak of light going across the sky and descending consistently in a straight line heading directly to the large orange object. It disappeared just before reaching the actual object. On the opposite horizon a new object moved erratically for two minutes as before and then suddenly grew to an overwhelming and startling appearance - this flash/flare was 2 seconds in length, after which it disappeared entirely. Finally, another bright orange orb appeared, moved consistently in one direction across a large portion of the sky before reversing direction, angling downwards towards the horizon. This object then grew in intensity and brightness and size, coming closer to the viewers and creating fear and panic for the viewers. Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com North Carolina - Disk JACKSONVILLE =96 The witness observed a bright disc shaped object with three red pulsating lights on the bottom for about 30 minutes on October 31, 2005, at 11:30 PM. MARS HILL -- I witnessed a cigar shaped object with a bright light center and an emerald green glow around it on October 31, 2005, at midnight. The object was traveling slow maybe 200 feet away and was 30 to 40 feet long. I watched as it was coming straight down but just as it was nearing the tree line the object "expanded" tremendously vertically and was as bright as 10 bolts of lightning. My husband saw the explosion part only. But we are stunned and I ran to see where this object had landed but there was no impact, smoke, or noise. Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com OHIO =96 Radio Claims Crash CLEVELAND-- Alan Caviness writes, "On November 10, at 6:45 PM, I caught a= couple minutes of a talk show that sounded like two guys discussing= something UFO-related on WTAM AM 1100. So, I locked in the station and= listened. I only heard a portion of what they were talking about, so= details are sketchy. This was a talk radio station, and two guys who were= basically talking to each other in the studio were mentioning a supposed= aerial UFO sighting then a crash. One of the guys said that on November= 9th that the US Army had moved into an area and closed off a section of= road or highway for several hours. What caught my attention was the word,= "Fostoria", popping up in the conversation several times. Newsroom Phone: 216-642-4636. Thanks toAlan Caviness Pennsylvania - Green Stream Of Light MT. PLEASANT =96 A bright that was moving south along Highway 119 south one mile past the Sony Plant when a passenger and I witnessed a bright green stream of light almost like a firework on October 31, 2005, on 9:10 PM. The night was clear with lots of stars in the sky. I'm calling it the tail of it seemed so long and it disappeared all of a sudden. Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Tennessee - Slowly falling, plasma-like object BRISTOL -- My mother and myself had just exited our home when we saw a very bright orange egg shaped light that at first appeared to be aircraft landing lights on October 31, 2005, on 7:40 PM. The misshapen glowing mass began descending slowly meandered downward(unlike a meteor) and seemed to "drip" orange fire like burning plastic. The object descended behind distant trees and we no longer saw it. My father contacted the local FAA office but unfortunately, they did not see this from their vantage point in the tower. We express our gratitude to Mr. Kim Shaffer, State Director for Eastern Tennessee, who can be reached at shaffer56.nul Texas an Oblong Object - No Wings SUNRISE BEACH -- I was sitting outside on November 10, 2005, scattering corn for the deer about 5:30 PM, and saw an oblong white object without any wings. It was moving pretty fast to the north without sound. I grabbed my camera and got two shots before it was gone. I saw this same thing yesterday. It is the small object to the right of the moon. I got these shots on my digital camera 315 hp. Thanks to Brian Vike, www.hbccufo.com Utah =96 Saucer Spotted SALT LAKE CITY -- At 11:52 PM, I was on my way to work east bound on State road SR-201 and saw a saucer shaped craft, emitting a glow of grey/white light climbing upwards from the valley floor into the clouds on October 31, 2005. The craft was about 5 to 10 miles away in front of me to the east south east and was small pea size at arm's length. The crafts starting point in the valley is unknown. The craft was out of sight in seconds. The clouds this night were small and separate from each other. Temperature was about 47 F. and no winds. Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Virginia -- Lights Emitted From A Triangle SUFFOLK -- I have witnessed a sphere of light twice, but tonight on October 31, 2005, on 11:30 PM, I had the closest encounter to date. Leaving my parents home around 11:15 PM, traveling down Constance Road, I spotted two very large and very bright spheres at about 600 feet off the ground. I pulled over to get a closer look and noticed they were moving directly toward me. While on the phone describing it to my Mother, the two spheres were actually lights on the underbelly of a very large triangle shaped craft. The craft had five lights, one on each rear corner, two on the front corner, and a red strobing middle light. It headed northeast toward Nansemond Parkway at about 10 mph. I'm a former Marine, so I don't scare easily. There was no jet or rotor propulsion sound. The next morning November 1, 2005, around 5:45 AM heading to work on Holland Road, I spotted three sphere shaped stationary objects, but realized it was the triangular shaped craft I saw only hours earlier. This time I heard a very low whistle or hum sound and saw a different light pattern underneath it's belly. There were three white lights at each corner, 1 red in the middle, and 1 red directly at the tail of the object. Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Washington =96 Summer Orbs My husband and I live and travel full time in our bus. This summer we stayed at a free, remote campground in Washington state. While there I took this photo of the full moon rising on the lake. Afterwards I noticed these orbs as well as the two other metallic looking objects in the sky, one is under the moon and the other behind the tree on the right (proving it is not a speck of dust). It was taken with a Cannon G1 digital camera. Thanks to: Jennifer Ratafia and Skywatch-International http://www.skywatch-international.org/ Argentina - Numerous Objects In The Sky Buenos Aires =96 Five people saw numerous flying objects on November 11, 2005. This time the mysterious appearance was for an hour and was captured on video tape. It was a very impressive demonstration. It was carried by several television channels and picked up on radar. Thank you to Info Ricardo E D'angelo www.glaucoart.com.ar =A9 2005 Ricardo E D'angelo. Canada Sightings VAUDREUIL-DORION, Quebec -- An undergraduate Science student at the University of McGill writes, "In mid summer of 2004, I was driving home from work around midnight in a rural area and saw in the light of my neighbors driveway two upright beings that stood at around 7-8 feet tall and did not appear to be clothed." They walked different then a human being. As I turned the corner, I had them in full view and they walked into my neighbor's driveway and disappeared. They may have gone into a 16 foot cedar hedge next to the driveway Tonight, October 26, 2005, my father asked my brother to bring the garbage out at around 9:30. To my surprise he came running to my room out of breath and recounted what he had seen in front of my neighbors driveway. To my surprise his sighting sounded very similar to mine accept for the fact that he only saw one being. Thanks to Peter Davenport www.UFOcenter.com GUELPH, ONTARIO -- This fellow delivers at our place of work, in Scarborough and on October 17, 2005, about 7:30 PM, he saw a distant "bright", white light, about a mile away that was moving slowly at about 2500 feet, characteristic of a Cessna plane. He watched in amazement of the bright light 's intensity moving towards him, that suddenly shot straight up the sky. The intense light faded with incredible speed and distance, in the next ten seconds was a pinprick of light. He saw the light blend in with the stars and lost sight of it. There is a definite pattern in my observations happening here. Another driver recently encountered his own sighting. This brings the count to eleven whom I have shared my experiences and sightings with and they have their own bonified sightings. These are "all" first timers on this subject to witness and I can only conclude, that whatever is around me. These forces of intelligence are not too shy to show off to other people. One fellow won't even talk to me anymore due to his encounter experienced with his girlfriend in Oshawa, over Lake Ontario in July 2004. I hope by sharing these sightings, investigators can utilize this data to show that something's really up! So I ask, where, and to whom does an experiencer go to with this? SCARBOROUGH -- I wanted to share that on November 8, 2005, at about 10:10 AM, I was talking with a courier driver, and spotted a rainbow prism ball forming. It appeared and faded twice in a matter of a couple of minutes. I have seen these, throughout this year. Thanks to Paul Michael Shishis Editor's Note =96 You're doing the right thing in reporting and making people aware of your sightings. I encourage you to send these files to everyone you know including military, politicians and scientists. Just ask them to keep an open mind and read them for awhile. I've found most people are amazed at the evidence we have collected for eight years from presidents, astronauts, scientists and people like yourself. Germany Fireballs BERLIN -- Numerous sightings of massive fireballs in the skies over Germany during the first week of November led to an upsurge in reports of UFOs, but scientists believe the cause could be a bizarre annual meteor blitz. NASA reports fireballs have been reported elsewhere in the world and may also be due to the fact that the Earth is now orbiting through a swarm of space debris. Many people in Germany have noticed the fireballs, said Werner Walter, an amateur astronomer in Mannheim who runs a Web site on unexplained astronomical phenomena and a hotline for reports on unidentified flying objects (UFO). It is possible that they are UFOs, which are after all things which we cannot explain," he said. Armagh Observatory in Northern Ireland reports people "are probably seeing the Taurid meteor shower". Mexico =96 UFOs Photographed MOTUL, YUCATAN -- In 2004, during a crafts exposition at the sheriff's office of San Pedro Chacabal, this material was furnished by a young man named Santiago to Prof. Silvestre Leal Campos of the SIRIO Research Group, stating that the image was taken by an archeologist from the town of Ticul. Their presence of the objects became known only upon developing the film. There are frequent sightings in this area of flying objects and tall, white-skinned and reddish haired humanoids. Research Credit: Grupo SIRIO Thanks to S. Corrales, IHU. Translation (c) 2005 and Ana Luisa Cid. Poland =96 UFO photographed WARSAW -- On September 30, 2005 this photo was taken at 19:30 hours over Poland of a disc shaped craft. nautilus.nul Puerto Rico - Saucer Takes Sea Water VIEQUES ISLAND --Witness Carlos Zen=97n is a Viequense fisherman who claims UFO/alien incidents have been occurring since at least 1996. He was fishing out at sea a couple of miles south of La Esperanza about 9 PM when he saw several very bright spheres of light come out from the top of CerroVentana Mountain. "These globes of light were of a blue-white hue and seemed to come right out from the top of the hill. They circled the hill and flew out to sea flying right over. You could hear a slight hissing from them. Later they returned to Playa Grande and Cerro Ventana, areas controlled by the US Navy, and disappeared inside the mountain. It was as if they had merged with the side of the mountain. Recent UFO photo courtesy of Reinaldo Rios Carlos states, "The most impressive event was when we encountered a huge object at night while out at sea fishing." I was with An'bal Corcino and his father who yelled, and I saw this huge craft came out from the sea near the Playa Grande lagoon, where the Navy's (Raytheon) ROTHR radar system is installed. "It was an extraordinary huge craft, immense, with many lights all around it. It was a flying saucer, a round disc- like craft, but really huge in size. It was clearly visible due to its size and the lights it had all over it, yellow, blue, and red lights. It was taking in water from the sea. The water at the sea's surface was swirling in a circle like a whirlpool. It seemed to be going up into the saucer in a column of water swirling like in a blender. It looked to be about 40 to 50 feet in diameter. A column of bright green light like a powerful spotlight, was coming out from under the object. The beam came out downwards, vertically and the water went up into the saucer through the beam of light. After that, the object flew away to the west at a fantastic speed and disappeared in a matter of seconds. "Many others have seen these flying saucers and the US Navy is secretly studying this advanced type of technology, possibly of alien origin. Snip. " Jorge Martin is the Editor of ENIGMAS del Milenio Magazine in Puerto Rico. He may be reached at: jmartin.nul (Tel. (787) 758-0692) UK Ministry of Defence UFO Reports. The figures below relate to the number of reports received by the Ministry of Defence in the last 20 years of aerial activity which was not immediately identifiable to the witness. ". We have all had individual cases where there is no obvious rational explanation but they are very rare. We never close a case and as we learn more it is possible phenomena we don't understand now can be explained later," he said. 1985 =96 177, 1986 =96 120, 1987 =96 150, 1988 =96 397, 1989 =96 258, 1990 =96 209, 1991 =96 117, 1992 =96 147, 1993 =96 258, 1994 =96 250, 1995 =96 373, 1996 =96 609, 1997 =96 425, 1998 =96 193, 1999 =96 229, 2000 =96 210, 2001 =96 203, 2002 =96 100, 2003 =96 99, 2004 =96 85, 2005 - 90. Hollywood has also played its part. BUFORA files from the 1980s are bulging following the release of Stephen Spielberg's 1977 blockbuster Close Encounters of the Third Kind and his later hit ET, says Mr Rosamond. "We have files going back to 1924, and the stereotype image of grey aliens you can see on everything from the bottom of skateboards to TV commercials came from the US. Prior to that there was nothing in the UK," he adds. Since Roswell, when an alien craft allegedly crashed in New Mexico in 1947, reports of UFOs grew but over the past 15-years interest in little green men has died and sightings have dwindled. Mr Rosamond says: "We are keeping an open mind. We will keep searching for answers." A Ministry of Defence spokeswoman said: "A combination of civil and military radar installations provide a continuous real-time 'picture' of UK airspace. "Any threat to the UK Air Defence Region would be handled in the light of the particular circumstances at the time (it might, if deemed appropriate, involve the scrambling or diversion of air defence aircraft). "The vast majority of reports we receive are very sketchy and vague. Only a handful of reports in recent years have warranted further investigation and none revealed any evidence of a threat. snip Thanks to Skywatch-International Web Site: http://www.skywatch-international.org/ Filer's Files: Worldwide Reports of UFO Sightings Major George A. Filer USAF (Ret) & David E. Twichell are happy to announce the release of our new book. If you like Filer's Files newsletter and his monthly report in the MUFON Journal, you'll love the book! It is a collection of some of the most thought provoking UFO sighting and abduction reports from around the world by average citizens, trained observers, astronauts and U.S. presidents. This is a review of many of the best cases in the last several years. The book is $13.95 plus $3.05 tax & shipping Send check to address below or Paypal Donate to Filer's Files to receive CD Your donations do make a difference in my ability to bring you the latest news! So you won't miss a single breaking news story or the increased evidence for UFO and life in the universe. George A. Filer has been bringing you the latest in UFO news since 1995, on radio, television and the Internet. Annual Membership is only $25 for 52 weekly intelligence reports. Don't miss the latest images of UFOs from Earth and Mars. Subscribe today and receive a free UFO Photo CD. Be sure to ask for the CD, Send check or money order to: George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055. You can also go to: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for majorstar.nul You may use Paypal, Visa, Master Card, or American Express. UFO Earth Mysteries Conference Congress will be held November 12 & 13, 2005. We have exciting speakers who will share their stories and their research. Bordentown, New Jersey .The Days Inn , 1073 US Highway 206 (near I-295 and the New Jersey Turnpike) Days Inn -- 609-298-6100 MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership includes the Journal and costs only $45.00 per year. To join MUFON or to report a UFO go to http://www.mufon.com/. To ask questions contact MUFONHQ.nul or HQ.nul Filer's Files is copyrighted 2004 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue. These reports and comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to majorstar.nul Sending mail automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:35:36 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:50:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Hall >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 05:30:51 -0600 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <snip> >>We may disagree about how reasonable or unreasonable the >>assumptions were (given my understanding of human nature they >>seem quite plausible to me); however, I am not saying whether >>the policy is good or bad, moral or immoral, defensible or >>indefensible. We tend to project our notions of right or wrong >>onto others, and to assume evil motives when the truth often is >>far simpler... and more human. Your realistic options are very >>few when you have a tiger by the tail. >Sir; >We've spent a lifetime observing a furiously vicious beast, this >tiger, effortlessly bends around to perform, with teeth and >tongue, necessary cleanup duties on its own anal pore, and yet >believe we are _remotely_ safe holding fast to its tail? I didn't say anything about 'safe' either. You seem not to understand my point. If you are human, have a tiger by the tail,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Australian Readers Digest Poll From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:59:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:59:45 -0500 Subject: Australian Readers Digest Poll Source: Australian Readers Digest http://tinyurl.com/7vhoa Extract from Australian Reader's Digest - July 2005 Out There RD Exclusive Poll Earth is part of the Milky Way =96 one galaxy among two hundred billion galaxies in the Universe. And each galaxy contains an average of four hundred billion stars. Our closest star, the sun provides the light and heat to support life as we know it. So is it that far-fetched to believe intelligence has developed elsewhere in space, within the glow of at least one other star? It=92s a question that intrigues and confounds. Without a definitive answer, how many of us choose to believe in aliens? To find out, we polled 750 adults nationwide*, posing a range of questions about aliens, UFOs, encounters and the openness of authorities to tell all they know. Here=92s some of what we uncovered. 84% of believers think aliens will be friendly Two-thirds of our overall sample =96 and a whopping 84 per cent of believers =96 told us that aliens are more likely to be our friends than foes. In fact, around half the believers feel so enamoured of extraterrestrial life forms that they would like the chance to meet one. And men are more likely than women to desire such an encounter. "There are bad and good aliens, just like the humans on Earth. Just watch out!" Male, 58, Victoria "If we ever encounter other beings I hope we don=92t kill first and ask questions later." Female, 54, Queensland Four out of five of us believe aliens exist "Do you think there are other forms of intelligent life in the Universe?" Eighty-one per cent said yes. Of these, around six in ten believe aliens are already monitoring what we do on Earth. Older people (50-59 years) are more likely than 18- to 29-year- olds to believe we=92re being watched. "I think there are [life forms in] universes outside this who probably wonder the same thing." Female, 45, NSW "I guess my philosophical view and my spiritual feeling is that it is more likely to be others, not just us." Male, 39, Queensland "I have a very open mind. I've never seen a million dollars, yet I know it exists."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 TV News Station Probing UFO Footage From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:02:56 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:02:56 -0500 Subject: TV News Station Probing UFO Footage Source: The Press-Telegram - Long Beach, California, USA http://www.presstelegram.com/news/ci_3224607 11/17/2005 TV News Station Probing UFO Footage By Tracy Manzer Staff writer LONG BEACH =97 Look, up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! What the heck is it? That's the question ABC-7 News has posed to Long Beach police and local military experts after getting a copy of a tape that shows an unidentified object flitting through our skies last year. The tape was made Dec. 25 by Long Beach Police Department helicopter pilots who caught sight of the glowing blob while on patrol around 11:30 p.m., said Sgt. David Cannan. Because the officers could not identify the object, they took video that was forwarded to a local military base for closer scrutiny. "We just asked them to take a look at it, in case it was a possible security issue," Cannan said. It was not, however, classified as an invasion by little green men, silver ones or any other kind of imaginable space beast, the sergeant assured. Julia Pfeiffer, a producer at Channel 7, said their news piece will take a look at the possible explanations for the item and the story will air either today or Friday. "We are approaching it fairly seriously," she said, "but we're not doing this to scare people." While neither military or local experts could tell the Press- Telegram what precisely the object was, theories include a possible prank or experimental military aircraft. This was especially common in the 1960s, after an article describing their construction appeared in a science magazine. And, according to one of several Web sites that explain how to build the balloons, "they do a good job of scaring the bejeebers out of many people." Cannan said the pilot's best guess was that it was a bag or balloon with a flare attached to it, which would explain the trailing sulfur-like light. In the tape, the brightly lit object looks as though it's traveling fast, but it could just be the effect of the helicopter orbiting the item at its speedy pace with the background flashing by, he said.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 17 Colin Andrews Selling His Files From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:10:23 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:10:23 -0500 Subject: Colin Andrews Selling His Files Source: The Western Daily Press - Bristol, UK http://tinyurl.com/amh8x 15 November 2005 For Sale: The Crop Circle Files He is the self-proclaimed world expert on crop circles who, in his time, advised everyone from Margaret Thatcher to Lawrence Rockefeller and Mel Gibson on the Wiltshire mystery. But now an apparently penniless Colin Andrews, for a decade the authoritative face of the crop circle phenomena, has this week embarked on an unseemly auction of his entire collection of crop circle research - enough to fill a large room - for a cool $250,000 (144,000 Pounds). The collection is being marketed on auction website eBay as a unique database of primary scientific evidence, including 35,000 original photographs, 650 video tapes, 3,000 books, 23 years of notes, recordings and graphics, and the original hard copies and negatives of everything Mr Andrews has ever done on the subject. Oh, and as if that was not enough, the lucky buyer walks away with the global copyright to everything in the collection. The collection is enough, Mr Andrews said, to fill a 20x20 storage room - although with an astonishing lack of Andrews's customary detail - he does not say whether it is 20 feet or 20 metres. Despite the 250,000 starting bid, Mr Andrews, who lived near Salisbury before moving to the US, had optimistically slapped a 500,000 price tag on his own website. But whatever price he wanted, it appeared early bidding had not been too brisk. As of yesterday, in fact, no bids had been forthcoming. It is the end of a 22-year odyssey for an unlikely hero of the mystical West. The former local government engineer shot to worldwide fame in 1990 as crop circle-mania took over the world. But since then, Mr Andrews has slowly withdrawn from the still- raging crop circle debate, and found himself ostracised from other, younger crop circle theorists - particularly after his announcement in 2000 that only 20 per cent of recorded crop circles were genuine - the rest being manmade. The researcher said he hoped the collection - which must be bought in its entirety - would go down in history. The sales pitch said: "This extraordinary record is the work of one man whose name is synonymous with crop circles." Mr Andrews said he is being forced to sell his life's work due to financial reasons. He said: "The reason the database, archives and libraries are being sold is that after all my personal funds
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:26:46 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 07:49:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Lehmberg >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:35:36 +0000 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 05:30:51 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? ><snip> >>>We may disagree about how reasonable or unreasonable the >>>assumptions were (given my understanding of human nature they >>>seem quite plausible to me); however, I am not saying whether >>>the policy is good or bad, moral or immoral, defensible or >>>indefensible. We tend to project our notions of right or wrong >>>onto others, and to assume evil motives when the truth often is >>>far simpler... and more human. Your realistic options are very >>>few when you have a tiger by the tail. >>We've spent a lifetime observing a furiously vicious beast, this >>tiger, effortlessly bending around to perform, with teeth and >>tongue, necessary cleanup duties on its own anal pore, and yet >>believe we are _remotely_ safe holding fast to its tail? >I didn't say anything about 'safe' either. You seem not to >understand my point. If you are human, have a tiger by the tail, >and are badly frightened, you are afraid to let go. You have no >real options. If you let go, it will likely be fatal. Still - it seems to me that it's been many decades holding that tail and the grasp we have on it slips steadily, anyway. This slip to oblivion accelerates with each year *elected* offices are held by double-deserting dry-drunks with delusions of grandeur, and the inevitability of that slip suggests another variable be introduced into the equation. How about taking a big hungry bite out of the tail? Say. How different would the future have been if McDonald had been allowed, buoyed on the support of scientists in a _position_ to support him against that proxy murderer Philip Klass... allowed to find his "Firestorm"? With respect Sir, I don't think you're trying very hard to see _my_ point.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: Rimmer's 2006 Ufological Schedule - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:09:31 -0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:12:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Rimmer's 2006 Ufological Schedule - Shough >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:55:15 +0000 (GMT) >Subject: Rimmer's 2006 Ufological Schedule >The John Rimmer Ufological Schedule for 2006 >by >Stuart Miller <snip> >In late 2005, John has been winding down in a debate with Jerry >Clark and a few others about the Father Gill sighting and >whether or not Gill, who used the word "mothership" in his >testimony could possibly have been influenced by Adamski or not. >A concession here by those arguing that Gill had been isolated >from such influences would open a wedge for John to further >attack the credibility of Gill. As I indicated, riveting stuff. >Of course, no ground was given by either side and so for the >moment, the debate has run its course. Stuart Thank you. Such a relief to see the UpDates bandwidth used for its proper and mature purpose (a truly riveting humoresque about John Rimmer's idle hours) instead of all this "incredibly dull" argument over matters of ufological fact and interpretation. But your description of a futile squaring-up by polarised protagonists is a caricature. There was a debate which did result in some actual research and the discovery of new facts. Perhaps you didn't see it if you were intent on the dynamics of the relationship between Mr. Rimmer and his transatlantic nemesis, but there was a middle ground in this "mothership" debate, and ground was given. >But there's still a month and a half left of this year John and >I figure that this truly fascinating debate could easily be >rekindled again with just a modicum of effort. A possible source >of further conversation could be whether Gill was wearing a hat >when he sighted the UFO and whether in any way this affected his >visibility. If he was wearing a hat, then the nature of the hat >needs to be established as the sighting was in the evening and a >black hat would have further decreased light reflectivity and >absorption. This thread could take us through to Christmas and >would be a suitable point at which to rest. I think your jibe simultaneously misses the mark in two directions, a) because John Rimmer will never tackle a case on the level of physics, optics, meteorology etc in the fashion you implicitly deride - as, what? nerdy? boffinish? pedantic? - would that he did) but instead will always be happier to respond in kind to your banter, and b) because the substantive issues thus marginalised by both of you in this odd suicide pact are the proper stuff of any worthwhile discussion. >Middle January in my opinion would be the best time to revisit >one of John's favourites and a case which hasn't been touched >for oooh, 18 months or so? I am of course referring to Trindale. >Those of you who have experienced the sheer utter ennui of John, >Jerry and others point scoring off eachother as they go >backwards and forwards on the minutiae of this case will know >what a treat they have in store. Ah the lofty condescension of those gifted with a higher vision and who gaze down with scorn on the plebeian swamp of "minutiae" (I jest, but that is how it sounds). You experienced sheer ennui. I on the other hand (one of those nameless "others" again) experienced perplexity and curiosity and decided to do some actual research as a result. http://trindade-island.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/trindex.htm >You might ask; what's left to >discuss? I don't know for sure but I would like to help them if >I can. Well if you don't know for sure you could always try finding out. I've tried to interest various people in finding out, including "the Johns", but few takers. >Did, for example, the Almirante Saldanha have railings? >Had they been cleaned? Were some of the witnesses perhaps >looking at a reflection of the UFO displayed on these railings? >Etc. If you'd ever actually studied the Trindade UFO photographs you would have seen the ship's railings there in the foreground. If you go to the link above you can find out about the height and gauge of the railings and almost anything else from deck plans and other photos (though I confess I neglected to look into how recently the deck had been swabbed, sorry). Before the research that was prompted by exchanges on this List I was as ignorant as you about the Trindade case. So there is a point to these debates, but it's like seeing fairies - it's not in plain sight
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely - From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:03:58 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:17:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely - >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:32:35 -0400 >Subject: Re: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely >>Source: The Daily of The University of Washington-Seattle, USA >>http://tinyurl.com/8xggh >>November 15, 2005 >>UW Professors: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely >>A new book authored by two aUW professors says complicated life >>in the universe is rare, but not everyone is giving up >>By Tia Ghose >>Ever wondered how life began and whether there is life on other >>planets? You're not alone, but the curiosity rarely turns into a >>career. >>The UW astrobiology program gives hope to would-be professional >>stargazers. Astrobiology -- the study of life in the universe -- >>looks for scientific answers to questions like "How did life >>begin on this planet?" and "Are we alone in the universe?" The >>field builds on knowledge across several disciplines. >>UW biology professor Peter Ward and UW astronomy professor >>Donald Brownlee believe discovering intelligent aliens on other >>planets is unlikely. In Rare Earth, a book the two co-authored, >>they say the conditions needed for complex life are so narrow >>that microbial life may be common, but complicated life in the >>universe is likely rare. >>Not everyone in the astrobiology program has given up on finding >>extra-terrestrial intelligence. It is hard to know what >>conditions are necessary for life with only the example of >>terrestrial organisms, said astronomy professor Woody Sullivan. >>"To be in astrobiology, you have to be a little bit of an >>optimist, you have to be a speculator," Sullivan said. >>The UW graduate certificate program in astrobiology started in >>1999 with funding from a National Science Foundation (NSF) >>grant, said Billy Brazelton, a graduate student in oceanography. >>The program also receives funds from the NASA Institute of >>Astrobiology and matching funds from the University. >>The NSF grant that funds the program will expire in five years. >>Because it is an interdisciplinary program, finding new funding >>for graduate students could be difficult, Brazelton said. >>"It's a very romantic concept, but to also be able to have >>funding to study it is a really special opportunity," said Jelte >>Harnmeijer, a graduate student in Earth and space sciences who >>studies 3.8 billion-year-old rocks in an attempt to understand >>how simple bacterial life on earth formed. >>Erosion has erased most traces of early organisms on Earth, so >>Harnmeijer's research takes him where the oldest rocks still >>have chemical evidence of this early life, including remote >>parts of Australia, South Africa and Greenland. >>According to the astrobiology program's Web site, students >>receive a traditional education in one of the participating >>departments -- aeronautics and astronautics, astronomy, >>atmospheric, Earth and space sciences, history (of science), >>microbiology and oceanography. >>Chasing down the origins of life takes knowledge from many >>different disciplines, so graduate students also take >>astrobiology and interdisciplinary classes, said astronomy >>graduate student Nathan Kaib. >>Brazelton studies a deep-sea thermal vent system called the Lost >>City. The 200-foot limestone towers house anaerobic microbial >>life that use methane and hydrogen for metabolism, he said. >>Brazelton hopes that by studying life in a strange environment >>on earth, he can understand better what life on other planets >>might be like. >>"If an unusual system on earth surprised us, then we would >>definitely have trouble finding life on Mars," he said. >Notice that the word UFO isn't mentioned and that the >assumption is made that no matter where or how long ago life >began anywhere else, there has been no migration and no >colonization. This is despite the fact that there are stars >billions of years older than the sun. >What egos the academics have... almost as bad as Menzel >expecting that, if there were visitors, they would want to talk >to the National Academy of Sciences, of which both he and Condon >were members. >How can one evaluate probability on the basis of data on one >planet or one solar system? Throw dice? >I hope claims like these are brought up on Coast to Coast when >I appear with Art Bell Sunday Night, November 20, 11PM-2AM, >Pacific Standard Time I first became aware of these two when they appeared on a program on PBS, which if memory serves was NOVA, which wouldn't surprise me. This is just the line of thinking that appeals to NOVA, egocentricity. Their parameters for the possibility of life are so narrow that nothing would make it through their filter. Additionally they had the Earth's atmosphere evolving to carbon dioxide within the next 350,000 years. That of course could happen if we don't begin making strides in our attitude toward the Earth's environment. But would we just allow this to happen? Of course not. In 350,000 years given our present rate of technological advances we would likely be moving planets around in our own Solar system. The lead-melter Venus will likely be an Terra formed Earth colony that has been teeming with human life for hundreds of thousands of years. That being the case, preventing the Earth's atmosphere from going C02 would be duck soup. This is the stake in the heart of Ward and Brownlee's theory. They seem to assume stagnation in human evolution. There's always the common supposition that we are going to blow ourselves up long before we can evolve which is strange because over mankind's 3 million year plus journey we've been slaughtering one another left and right but here we stand, 6 billion and counting. During the balance of this century there are going to be powerful incentives to get humans out into space, not the least of which is China's long range plans. But Ward and Brownlee suppose that we won't get past that 350,000 year countdown to a C02 atmosphere and that's where they lose me. In the last 200 years we've gone from horse drawn carriages to manned space flight, most of the being accomplished in the last 100 years. Technology is cascading, constantly evolving to the point where it's hard to keep up with advances. But that's just us in our infancy. Can anyone really believe that we are the only intelligence that's come along in the last 13.8 billion
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Secrecy News -- 11/17/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 10:52:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:19:12 -0500 Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/17/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 107 November 17, 2005 ** "LEAKED" INTELLIGENCE BUDGET FIGURE MAY BE WRONG ** AIR INTELLIGENCE AGENCY 2004 BUDGET DISCLOSED ** SECRET SESSIONS OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE (CRS) ** US MILITARY OVERSEAS BASING (CRS) "LEAKED" INTELLIGENCE BUDGET FIGURE MAY BE WRONG The public disclosure of the total intelligence budget figure by Deputy Director of National Intelligence Mary Margaret Graham at a conference two weeks ago produced outrage from some legislators who favor budget secrecy and triggered an official inquiry by the Office of the DNI. But the squabble over the disclosure is doubly odd since the reported $44 billion intelligence spending figure, which would be harmless if accurate, may be incorrect. "You can read these numbers a lot of different ways," one intelligence official told United Press International. "But I cannot put together any set of budgets in any configuration that comes to that ($44 billion) number." See "Leak Probe on Intelligence Budget Slip" by Shaun Waterman, UPI, November 14: http://www.upi.com/inc/view.php?StoryID051108-070926-9450r It is possible that the actual source of Deputy Director Graham's "disclosure" was a recent Washington Post story. The 2006 intelligence authorization act "carries about $44 billion for the 15 [intelligence] agencies and Office of the Director of National Intelligence," wrote Walter Pincus in "GOP Senators Look to Shift Spy Management From CIA," Washington Post, October 1, 2005. The Post figure refers to the 2006 intelligence budget authorization, not the amount of money actually appropriated, which is likely to be different. AIR INTELLIGENCE AGENCY 2004 BUDGET DISCLOSED Aside from formal secrecy, some intelligence agency budgets are shielded from prying eyes by baroque bookkeeping practices that nearly defy comprehension. For example, the budget of the US Air Force Air Intelligence Agency was nearly $1.3 billion in 2004, according to a newly disclosed Air Force briefing. But this total budget figure melded funding streams from multiple external sources, the briefing explained. "Two-thirds of our funding comes from non-Air Force congressional appropriations," including three National Foreign Intelligence Programs: the Consolidated Cryptologic Program (NSA), the General Defense Intelligence Program (DIA), and the National Imagery and Mapping Agency (now NGA). A copy of the unclassified briefing was provided to Secrecy News by William M. Arkin, who writes the Early Warning blog for the Washington Post (blogs.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning). See "AIA Mission Briefing," Air Intelligence Agency, February 2004 (PowerPoint file): http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/usaf/aia2004.ppt SECRET SESSIONS OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE (CRS) The Congressional Research Service has updated its accounts of secret sessions of Congress to reflect the secret session of the Senate on November 1 that addressed pre-war intelligence on Iraq. See "Secret Sessions of Congress: A Brief Historical Overview," updated November 3, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/secrecy/RS20145.pdf And "Secret Sessions of the House and Senate," updated November 3, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/secrecy/98-718.pdf US MILITARY OVERSEAS BASING (CRS) Another new Congressional Research Service report considers plans for relocating U.S. military bases abroad, and political developments that might affect those plans. "Host nations such as South Korea have begun to voice limits on the use of forces based in their country. Uzbekistan, one of the test cases for the new strategy, recently evicted U.S. forces from the base in that Central Asian nation. Some analysts argue this eviction was prompted from Russia and China, who have begun to express concern with U.S. expansion of influence in the region." See "U.S. Military Overseas Basing: New Developments and Oversight Issues for Congress," October 31, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33148.pdf _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely - From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 16:01:13 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:14:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely - >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:32:35 -0400 >Subject: Re: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely >>UW biology professor Peter Ward and UW astronomy professor >>Donald Brownlee believe discovering intelligent aliens on other >>planets is unlikely. In Rare Earth, a book the two co-authored, >>they say the conditions needed for complex life are so narrow >>that microbial life may be common, but complicated life in the >>universe is likely rare. >How can one evaluate probability on the basis of data on one >planet or one solar system? Throw dice? Right, and although there's a detailed critique of "Rare Earth" at perceptions exosci, a quote by Dan Simmons ("Ilium") "... in- system, toward the campfire" provoked a rethought. Quote "Some exobiologists point out that the only essential requirement for life to exist is a source of energy that can be used. If this is correct, then in principle it will be possible for life to exist almost any where in the Universe" - John Gribbin - "Companion to the Cosmos" ISBN 0-297-81725-6 [In "Deep Simplicity" (2004) Gribbin also noted recent findings that most of the 20 amino-acids which Earth life builds on, are "produced under the conditions that exist between the stars" - in deep space molecular clouds.] Hyron Spinrad (1970) noted "supermetallicity" of certain stars (recently confirmed in Milky Way), allowing Asimov to forecast "It is nine times to eighty one times more likely that intelligence has arisen earlier in the central region of our galaxy" ("richsun.txt" in Google) That's just focussing on CHON - carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen based life like us: luke-warm beings in a luke-warm zone - 'toward the campfire'. In areas of the Milky Way conditions might be such that silicon say, replaces carbon as the building block, or sulfur reactions take the place of oxygen burning. [BTW - note many sighting, contact reports, from hundreds of years ago to present day, mention 'sulfurous' smells - i.e. brimstane, hot coals, burnt cardbord, rotten eggs etc.] Even in our own Solar System there are regions in or around the gas giants where large amounts of hydrocarbons, large electro- magnetic field differences and large temperature differences give conditions where life could exist. We should also remember that the universe's basic energy field (maybe the strongest), which science calls vacuum or zero point energy, must intensify as you move out from the gas giants towards deep space. Hence more speculative thoughts (at "infospce.txt" then "friend- foe.txt") on 'self-organized' patterns of energy:- quote - "Such patterns are likely to arise in any dynamical system with suitable features ... spatial extension, a particular type of oscillatory local dynamic, and coupling rules for how one region influences its neighbors. ["The Collapse of Chaos" Professor Jack Cohen & Professor Ian Stewart ISBN 0-670-84983-9] Brownlee and Ward's book, looking only "toward the campfire" can't see even what's likely in our little clearing, and totally ignores what might be out in the forest. Cheers Ray D
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: BS In The Desert - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:01:35 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:20:54 -0500 Subject: Re: BS In The Desert - Balaskas >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:29:26 -0800 >Subject: Re: BS In The Desert >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:07:10 -0500 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: BS In The Desert >>Kevin Randle has posted his response to Nick Redfern's >>book, Body Snatchers In The Desert, at his Blog: >>http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2005/11/bs-in-desert.html <snip> >Good article. I wonder if you could comment on the post I >previously sent UpDates. List members didn't respond but I find >it significant that Michael Maelstrom predicted Nick's thesis >nine years before it was published. <snip> >"Below you'll find an excerpt from a letter sent to the Pentagon >by Michael Maelstrom and cross-posted along related Fido and >Internet forums during the week of March 18, 1996. For the full >text, go to: >http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/roswell.htm >Seems the Redfern plotline has been around many moons. Has this >been mentioned on the List before? William Sawers sent me a copy >and that's the first I've heard of this prophecy. <snip> >High ranking U.S official covering up shady activities >involving: >a. inhumane experiments >b. nuclear related >c. sales of illegal weaponry >d. incompetent/dangerous use of highly volatile material >The story given above is a variation on the sort of >story the U.S will try to release to the public in order to >convince us all once and for all, the Roswell case was >not an UFO. <snip> Greetings Ed! I too found Kevin Randle's review and comments of Nick Refern's latest book on the Roswell UFO incident to be good and I also agree with you that Nick Redfern's thesis was not original, although Nick was approached by some dubious sources with new information on what really happened in New Mexico in 1947. My recent post to the UFO UpDates list, 'Nuclear Bombs Over Canada', resulted in many responses both on and off the List. Although what I wrote about the two nuclear bombs that were dropped and detonated over Canada in 1950 was intended as an example of the extreme secrecy and lies about such incidents that even Ministers of National Defense are kept in the dark about what really happened, many of those who responded insisted that this nuclear incident had nothing to do with the subject of UFOs. After seeing the list above, I would argue that it just may have everything to do with UFOs! a. From recently released and previously secret documents, it is now known that early above ground nuclear tests were conducted by the U.S. in New Mexico, Nevada and even in the islands of the South Pacific where U.S. citizens and others were not told or lied to about the potential dangers of nuclear fallout. During some military exercises, even U.S. troops were postioned in close proximity to these above ground nuclear tests. Russian and Chinese troops and civilians were treated no differently. b. It is no secret that the Roswell UFO crash in 1947 and other major UFO incidents happened at restricted military or secret scientific installations that had nuclear facilities or nuclear bomb facilities. For example, in 1947 Roswell was home to the only nuclear-capable wing of the U.S. Air Force. Other examples are available through Todd Lemire, a MUFON investigator from Michigan who has researched the close connection between UFOs and nuclear facilities. c. It is now known that the U.S. deployed nuclear bombs in many other countries, some without their knowledge and/or permission. Also, it was through legal nuclear technology transfer from Canada to India, that it was able to build and explode its own nuclear bomb. There are many examples of illegal activities that have lead other nations such as Israel, South Africa, etc. to acquire nuclear material and/or technology that have allowed them to build and explode, in secret, their own nuclear bombs. d. The first nuclear chain reaction (not including what Nature accidently achieved in Gabon, Africa several billion years ago) was achieved by physicists at the University of Chicago in 1942, Stan Friedman's (and Carl Sagan's) alma mater. If this nuclear test under the west stands of Stagg Field was allowed to proceed further, they would have blown up the university and most of Chicago too. Other examples of incompetent and dangerous use of highly volatile material should include the U.S.'s solution to its disposal problems with tons of depleted uranium - dump it on other countries! This would have been the second time Chicago was destroyed, the first time was in 1871 when Chicago and dozens of other towns and cities in several mid-western states were simultanteously destroyed by fires that, according to witnesse accounts found in newspapers at the time, was caused by objects falling from space which, if true, would make Chicago the first major U.S. city destroyed by ET causes - an American Tunguska event! There are many other examples I could of mentioned above for each category but I hope that I made my point. If the Roswell UFO incident is eventually conclusively shown to have been a UFO(s) that were not manufactured here on Earth, it wouldn't rule out U.S. scientific/technological involvement in this incident or justify our conclusion that everything in Nick Redfern's book was wrong. Finally, as for those who insist that the nuclear bombs on the two U.S. bombers which dropped and detonated them over Canada in 1950 did not create any radioactive risk to Canadians since they had no nuclear cores, I want to ask them just how those many live nuclear bombs were transported to the U.S. SAC base at Goose Bay, Labrador. According to my Rand McNally you still cannot get there from the U.S. by road and I suspect a sea route through the icebergs of the North Atlantic and then along the long and narrow channel to Goose Bay would not be a safer way to transport their nuclear cores or complete bombs either. Since Canada did not perform tests immediately after these two nuclear incidents to determine the amount, if any, of radioactive fallout from these two nuclear bombs which were detonated (i.e. vapourized or pulverized with powerful conventional explosives) over Canada, what we either of us have to say now over half a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: Colin Andrews Selling His Files - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:57:15 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:22:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Colin Andrews Selling His Files - Boone >Source: The Western Daily Press - Bristol, UK >http://tinyurl.com/amh8x >15 November 2005 >For Sale: The Crop Circle Files >He is the self-proclaimed world expert on crop circles who, in >his time, advised everyone from Margaret Thatcher to Lawrence >Rockefeller and Mel Gibson on the Wiltshire mystery. But now an >apparently penniless Colin Andrews, for a decade the >authoritative face of the crop circle phenomena, has this week >embarked on an unseemly auction of his entire collection of crop >circle research - enough to fill a large room - for a cool >$250,000 (144,000 Pounds). Egad! Another researcher on the ropes! I'd had an idea for Colin that might have made him and his friends some serious coin but couldn't get hold of him. I passed the idea over to Nick Pope though.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:01:22 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:25:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Clark >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 22:28:12 +0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:27:49 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:04:45 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism Sigh, with due apologies to patient and gentle Listfolk: >What are you talking about Jerry? I claim, from personal >experience, It's startling to discover suddenly that a Magonian actually cites "personal experience" as authoritative and credible. This must be a first. By that, I don't mean the shameless inconsistency and hypocrisy, of course. Those are standard, but the insistence on the literal authority of "personal experience" as definitive is a new one. We all know, of course, what would happen if one of us claimed as authoritative, credible, and definitive our "personal experience" of a ball-lightning sighting or an extraordinary UFO encounter. Why is a pelicanist's "personal experience" supposed to be objectively meaningful, while somebody else's personal experience of an anomalous phenomenon isn't? That is, needless to say, merely a rhetorical question. >that there was widespread UFO imagery in popular >culture in Britain in the 1950s. You deny this, but offer no >"empirical evidence", and instead start talking about red- >herrings. To my mind that is almost the dictionary definition of >a red-herring. Speaking of examples of red herrings, you have just provided another one. As you well know, we were not talking about "widespread UFO imagery in popular culture in Britain in the 1950s." We were talking about the particular instance of the Gill CE3 (in which, it is by now glaringly apparent, you have a great deal invested), wherein the principal witness reported that he did not borrow the phrase "mothership" from UFO jargon. When you claimed that he _had_ to have gotten it from such, several of us demonstrated that in fact "mothership" was hardly a specifically ufologically term and its use in that context in popular (nonufological) discourse was and is rare. But you just can't let it go, can you? >>>>There is a lesson to be learned from pelicanists' frantic but >>>>failed effort to link Gill's use of "mothership" with UFO >>>>literature. You will recall their insistence, based on nothing >>>>except deeply held beliefs and instincts, that Gill - his own >>>>testimony to the contrary - could have gotten the phrase only >>>>from ufological jargon. When we demonstrated otherwise with >>>>actual evidence, they - here's a shock - didn't pause for one >>>>second's blink. We're back to the same stuck record on a >>>>pelicanist phonograph player long overdue for replacement. One >>>>need not claim psychic powers to have predicted that. And >>>>speaking of the psychic: >What is this "actual evidence" you are blathering on about? We >were discussing whether Gill came across the phrase 'mothership' >in a ufological or nautical context. He said he hadn't read >Adamski, which proves nothing (see Peter Rogerson's posting >elsewhere on the list) but this doesn't provide evidence (or >even better "empirical evidence") that he heard the word in a >nautical context. Speaking of blathering, you already told us - via use again of the psychic facilities that, in spite of their repeated employment, so often fail psychosocial ufologists - that you "doubted" Gill knew anything of nautical jargon. In response, I produced a quote in which he used nautical terminology. But you persist. You just can't help yourself, can you? >My guess, on the balance of probabilities - >Crutwell's fascination with Adamski and the widespread use of >UFO imagery in Britain at the time (oh, sorry, that's a 'Red >Herring') - is that he heard the phrase from a UFO context, but, >as I said before: >>>It is largely irrelevant where Gill got the phrase 'mothership' >>>from, >>Well, that's good to know, though rather late in the discussion >>to concede as much. You've wasted a whole lot of our time in the >>meantime. >No Jerry, I only seem to have wasted your time, as you are >incapable of letting any comment of mine go by without a long >and involved argument. But then if I let it go, you always whine that I ignore your dazzlingly insightful arguments because I can't answer them. In other words: When Jerry Clark replies to your assertions, it's because he's incapable of not replying to them. When Jerry Clark doesn't respond to your assertions, it's because he's incapable of producing a response. Ah, the pelicanist hatred of falsifiability, aka the pelicanist love of damned-if-they-do, damned-if-they-don't rhetorical strategy. >>>What is interesting is the way in which the neo-ETHers try to >>>deny the widespread knowledge of UFOs amongst the general >>>public. >>Ah, guess what kind of fish this is! >It's actually an empirical observation of the way people react >on this List Actually, an empirical demonstration of pelicanist rhetorical methods. As I have observed already, you are obsessed with theory and can't imagine that those who disagree with you don't share that obsession. Thus ETH - Extraterrestrial Heresy, apparently, in your conceptualization - is a continuing obsession of yours in any and all contexts, when the rest of us are simply trying to make a point and to bring what evidence exists to bear on a specific, generally small question. You'd rather "guess" and "doubt" (your words) which is why you are a guesser and more cautious ufologists try their best to be empiricists. >>What is "knowledge of UFOs" as opposed to "awareness of UFOs"? >>Awareness of UFOs is, as we all know, widespread. Knowledge of >>UFOs, on the other hand, demands precise language and >>definition, as Greg Sandow - in the post John keeps not >>responding to - has already noted. In Gill's case, there was >>awareness of UFOs, but there was not much knowledge of them at >>the time of the sighting (and not a great deal later, according >>to Gill's testimony, which not even debunkers have challenged). >I have read this post, and quite frankly I can see nothing in it >worth responding to, as it is merely Sandow's personal >observation, but as you are as determined to waste my time as I >am to waste yours, here goes: Folks, this will be fun! >GS - Often enough in the past I've noted how believers in the >psychosocial hypothesis ignore standard social science >methodology. All, of course, while claiming to be rational and >scientific. >JR - Well, that's his opinion, can't see anything worth >responding to there. Okay, I'll help you. You can't cite examples of "standard social science methodology" in your writing on the UFO phenomenon. Literary criticism is not standard social-science methodology. If you want to treat ufology as a problem in literary criticism, fine, but you ought to admit that's what you're doing. What the rest of us object to - those of us, in short, who see no evidence in your approach of psychology and sociology as actually practiced by psychologists and sociologists - is your continuing pretense to represent a "psychosocial" approach. Got that? You are no more a psychosociologist than I am an astrophysicist. The difference between you and me is that I don't pretend to be what I am not. >GS - They start with assumptions about how widespread UFO >imagery and ideas might be. Assumptions, of course, that they >haven't checked. They don't even think of seeking measurements >of how prevalent these things might be." >JR - Is this any different from the neo-ETHers assumptions that >UFO imagery is only accessible to the favoured few who read the >works of Jerome Clark and contribute to UFO Internet lists? >Presumably you have measurements on how narrowly confined UFO >imagery was in Britain in the 1950s? Is this supposed to be an answer, or just another red herring? In any event, the red herring is apparent - in the childishly transparent distortion of my point, understandable to any modestly intelligent reader, about UFO awareness vs. UFO knowledge - but the answer is nowhere. >GS - Then they make assumptions about how ideas and images spread, >and how they influence people. Assumptions, that, once again, >might have no basis in standard social science theory. They >don't think to check the literature to find out how social >scientists have theorized about these things, or how data may or >may not support particular theories. >JR - Is this meant to be the killer paragraph? Maybe I'm just >not as impressed with "standard social science theory" as Mr >Sandow is. Social scientists have produced numerous theories >about the ways in which UFO imagery and ideas has spread and >influenced people. Some of them have been posted on this list, >often to a great deal of criticism. Does this mean that you now openly reject "standard social- science theory" in favor of the lit-crit approach Magonia has used all these years? At least we've gotten that straight, I hope. >GS - And now, for a change, we have some actual research. Data! >Facts! >JR - What Data! Facts!? Exactly, John. You don't have a clue. Thanks for making our point. >It's just amazing how cavalier sceptics can be about social >science, sociology, in particular. (Though their ignorance of >psychology - sometimes extending even to a lack of basic common >sense about people - is pretty notable, too. If psychology is a >social science, that is; not sure that's quite the proper >classification.). If I started blabbering about physics the way >they blabber about sociology, they wouldn't stop laughing for a >week. >JR - Again, Mr Sandow's opinion, to which of course, he is >perfectly entitled. Does anybody on this List beyond fellow Magonians consider this an even remotely adequate response to Greg's point? Magonians, we see once again, claim the right not only to their own opinions (to which of course they are entitled) but to their own facts (to which they aren't). What's amusing is how confused they are about the distinction. In that sense, pelicanism is a whole lot closer to a rigid political ideology than to the social-science approach to which it claims at least rhetorical allegiance, at least when convenient (though not, as when Greg Sandow raises the obvious questions, when inconvenient). >>In my daily life - I am sure this is true of all Listfolk - I >>run into people all the time with awareness of UFOs, but few >>outside ufology with actual knowledge of the arcana of the >>subject. Most of us would define "UFO knowledge" as education >>in the subject through reasonably extensive reading, thought, >>and exposure to the relevant information. "UFO awareness," on >>the other hand, is something else, comparable to, say, one's >>"awareness" of string theory or hiphop culture (or whatever) >>versus one's "knowledge" of it. >Here's the nub. In order to be familiar with concepts such as >"mother ships" one has to have the depth of knowledge displayed >by Jerome Clark. Huh? Did you just make that up, John? Of course you did. Where else would you have gotten it except in befogged mind-reading? >In order to produce this remarkable argument he >suggests that "most of us would define "UFO knowledge" as >education in the subject through reasonably extensive reading, >thought, and exposure to the relevant information." Uh, yeah. Would anybody but a fiercely squawking pelicanist take issue with what ought to have been a thoroughly uncontroversial observation? >Well I for one wouldn't. You may like to think that there is a >sort of ufological elite, with you and Greg Sandow, and Richard >Hall and a few others, at the top, the likes of me somewhere >just below the snow line, and then the vast mass of the >population basking in ignorance. (I would suggest here that Mr >Clark's introduction of string theory and hip-hop represents the >production of a roseate piscine) Oh, dear. The squawks are growing deafening and no longer even pretend to be in the English language. At least it's good to learn that I am knowledgeable about string theory and hiphop culture as opposed to being, as I had thought, merely aware of them. I guess that I'm smarter than I thought. More likely, alas, John has suddenly defined knowledge downward. >This is just not so. People >have a spectrum of knowledge about a subject ranging from total >immersion to total ignorance. What evidence do you have that no- >one, other that a person who read a wide range of specialist UFO >literature, would have come across the term "mothership" in a >UFO context in their general reading? And please don't mention >the various Internet indexing tools unless you can demonstrate >that they cover the kinds of popular newspapers and magazines >that are most likely to print UFO related stories. Why should I employ "various Internet indexing tools" when their application only serves to undercut pelicanist guesswork and fantasy? What a party-pooper I am. I am sure I will not be asked to indulge in a pint or two with the lads of the Sceptics Club at the Pelican Pub. And you know how much I revere English beer. You really know how to hurt a guy, John. By the way, those of you who are not John Rimmer may have noticed CNN's use of the phrase "mother ship" in recent weeks in, of course, contexts having precisely nothing to do with George Adamski or even UFOs generally. None of this would have even registered with me if not for the strange ongoing List discussion. May we now fully expect John and fellow pelicanists to argue that this is yet further evidence of Adamski's vast influence on popular speech and imagery? See, for example, http://search.cnn.com/pages/search.jsp?query=mothership and for others, search "mother ship." Maybe CNN ought to be renamed the Adamski News Network. Perhaps John and Peter will demonstrate for us that somebody employed at CNN knows somebody who once read an Adamski book or heard of GA in a newspaper article or who had an Adamski-devotee uncle or, when young in Britain, passed an ice-cream truck with a mothership-and-saucers logo. >In fact, let's widen this out a bit, as I think concentration on >this one phrase hides the broader issue. Peter has pointed out >one simple way in which people with no interest at in UFO would >have been exposed to UFO imagery in Manchester in the 1950s, >through a children's ride in a department store. I can't recall >that the Liverpool branch of Lewis's had such an item, but there >was certainly plenty of other UFO imagery around at the time, >including, I remember an ice-cream van painted over with >rockets, flying saucers, space-men in bubble helmets, etc. More "personal experience." And, even worse, memory claimed as validation of personal experience. Magonians can be accused of many things, but intellectual consistency is not one of them. Apparently everybody else's memory is misleading and treacherous. Pelicanists are blessed, however, with memories whose very retrieval is its own validation of their accuracy. >Martin Kottmeyer, in his various articles in Magonia, Magonia >Supplement and elsewhere has chronicled this from the American >perspective - I think there's a great deal of qualitative >evidence in the material he has studied. Again, anecdotes and literary criticism are put up against the empirically verifiable. Kottmeyer is hardly a sociologist or a psychologist, but an interesting chronicler of pop-culture arcana and, less interestingly, a freewheeling speculator on cultural and social matters. In other words, your typical Magonian. So what else is new? I am clipping the rest of John's treatise because (1) it contains, as usual, nothing fresh, (2) I have a life and a living to make, and (3) frankly the relentless flapping of wings and squawking of beaks have lost whatever zoological, anthropological, dramatic, or clinical interest they once held for me. If John and Peter can't even concede that Father Gill was almost certainly right in his explanation of where "mothership" came from in his testimony (which I had naively thought was the point of the conversation), and if they have to invent all kinds of things that nobody ever said or thought in the course of List discussion of the issue, one can only conclude - perhaps no surprise at this point - that pelicanists are fundamentally unserious. Admittedly this is not, at this late stage, exactly a shocking conclusion, but perhaps it merits stating, even if it is only of the obvious. I am outta here. Future Rimmer contributions to this thread (not to all threads, just this one, which long ago ran out of any actual content or purpose) will be deleted unread so that I am untempted to respond to them and thus waste yet more of my - and everybody else's, including John's - valuable time. Now, you'll have to excuse me. I have an appointment with a Mr. Adamovich... or was it Adamski? ...something like that... who soon will be arriving near here on... what was the phrase he used? ...mmm ...a "mama craft"... "maternal steamliner"... mmm... something like that. A nautical phrase of some kind, I would guess. Not that I, a lifelong Midwesterner, would know
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:12:48 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:26:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Boone >From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:17:15 -0500 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:03:38 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:52:01 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <snip> >What I don't accept is rejection of the phenomenon on the >basis >of preserving the integrity of someone's world view, as in: >"that's preposterous, such things are impossible." >Pavel Pavel, I really look forward each day for your posts. You've the clarity and maturity that are refreshing in this field. Regarding Klass, however, our focus has been on whether he'd been a member of some secret U.S. group. Perhaps he was no where near that yet instead had associations with groups who had an agenda against ufology. Business and religious and other groups have had a long problem with the matter and perhaps domestically and or foreign his vehement gabblings were nothing more than to protect his and their
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:05:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:33:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Smith >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:46:47 -0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >Speaking of ignoring facts, what about the rather challenging >cases that Brad brought up near the beginning of this thread and >which _nobody_ on this list seems to want to go near? Any >thoughts on the triangulated sightings by a/c designer Clarence >Johnson and a planeload of Lockheed test pilots and >aerodynamicists? There's something there for everybody - if you >don't fancy a physical science approach you could try the theory >that they were all saucer-happy, influenced by the Lockheed >"contactee" tendency. Or are you content to go along with Blue >Book's "lenticular cloud"? What _do_ people do with these cases? We have two problems. 1) They happened a long time ago and since nothing became of them over the intervening years, you are almost guaranteed to have no further progress in them. So, an inertia sets in preventing further work via rationalization. 2) Who has the original facts/reports/data? Likely, they are lost and more rationalization can occur that without the original witnesses/data, nothing more can be done. Any cases that seem clearly ET related always seems to be ignored by "science", although some of these might still be "enjoyed" by the public. We can leave out the military because who knows what they really believe about anything. I mean, if cases like the Coyne-helicopter case of Oct 1973 where a cigar UFO made them increase altitude by 3000 ft instead of lose altitude (they were in a dive) with 4 crew witnesses are not taken seriously by "science" and the military then what is the use? So rather than hope these excellent (albeit dusty) cases can change anything, we need new fresh data similar to them, only
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: Alien Artifacts In The Solar System? - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 16:58:08 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:34:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Alien Artifacts In The Solar System? - Smith >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:25:37 -0400 >Subject: Re: Alien Artifacts In The Solar System? >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 14:56:51 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Subject: Alien Artifacts In The Solar System? >I find it hard to understand why NORAD's former self in 1960 >would have been in a dither, evidence the newspaper reports of >the time, when they had a possible explanation in the Discoverer >V capsule or a tumbling booster, and then broadcast to the world >that they had this retrieval method available to them. First, the Discoverer story up to Aug 1960 (XIV) was it was for scientific purposes (tissue samples, and even monkeys were scheduled for later flights). Somehow the story was finally blown after that date. So they had no reason to hide the information about the retrieval method, indeed they were bragging about it and its application for manned flight. As to why they were in a dither about explaining it, the observations did not match the known objects. The one Discoverer (VIII) up there had a significantly different inclination (80.65 deg). No other such satellites were up there. The small (300lb) capsule evidently was blasted into a very high orbit and was lost. For some reason, it was not within range of the radar prior to the incident so was "forgotten". When it got into range (by the objects orbit degrading), then they suddenly got surprised. Maybe they didn't have enough experience with such observations since only 25 satellites had been launched up to that time. >Quote: "Months later, a story was circulated that the mystery >object was the second-stage booster for the top-secret >Discoverer V surveillance satellite, launched into polar orbit >on August 13, 1959." >The Soviets weren't stupid, they would have figured out why the >US was retrieving ejected capsules from a near-polar orbiting >satellite, if their spy network wasn't already aware of its >existence. >Look at the number of years it took for the US to declassify the >Top Secret cumbersome, turn of the [19th] century Mogal/Mogul >balloon arrays for sniffing around the Soviet Union for nuclear >explosions; and yet they out the polar orbiting, ejecting >capsule type satellite technology to explain away an anomalous >Near Earth satellite. I must state that no one was outed anything. The USAF was making all sorts of publicity about the great science done with the Discoverer series from day one. But on Aug 20, 1960, they started to have to make some denials,UPI: "The Air Force flatly denied a published report the satellite had been crammed with secret sky spy gear." Nevertheless, it was pretty obvious the technology could be used for peaceful or military purposes as soon as it was first done (and it was not done in secret, but with publicity and all the failures revealed in the press). >It strikes me a bit odd as well that whenever there is a problem >with size, speed and altitude, the previously state of the art >radar become prone to errors then return to normal when the >targeted anomalies go away. It is odd. I think more work is needed to understand the real cause for the misinterpreted radar, the press accounts were poor. >This object would have been tracked by dozens of radar arrays, >not just one. The DEW line and Mid Continental lines were up and >running and the Pine Tree Line was partially up and also under >construction. So did they all go unserviceable at once? I note >that that small detail is left out. I also note that there is no >mention of repairs being done either. So this means the next >fuzzy explanation would have been that it was the radar >operators who suddenly went brain dead for three weeks and were >unable to interpret their radar data. Comforting to know that >all of them suffered the same thing at the same time. Apparently >the soviets missed their window of opportunity there, eh? They >could have owned the skies over Canada [the buffer zone] and the >United States with this massive radar problem and inept >operators. Maybe the range for those other radars were suborbital altitude only and not the altitude the "mystery satellite" had. (Apogee=1076 miles and perigee=129 miles). Interestingly, On Feb 13, 1960, is a report from UPI: "Secret Missile Gap Reported In Our Radar" "The Defense Department disclosed today that the U.S. system for discovering secret satellites could detect only those that approach to within less than 1,000 miles of the earth. A spokesman stated that there was a "gap" about 700 miles wide between two fan- shaped radar detection beams. A secret satellite could temporarily escape detection in the gap. The system, set up by the Navy in 1953, is called the space surveillance (Spasur) radar fence." So we see the 1000 miles again. But does the satellite need to be at apogee to be seen? Is it going to fast near perigee to be picked up on radar? I doubt it. Because of the inclination, the satellite should have been in range near its perigee many times as its orbit precesses around the Earth. Pretty weird. >As an aside, aren't most polar orbiting satellites off-axis by >about 10 degrees? They are still considered to be in polar
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: Gill Sighting - Reason From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 22:26:52 -0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:38:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Gill Sighting - Reason >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:58:54 -0000 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting <snip> >Actually no. The suggestion is not that Gill interpreted changing >relative brightness as being due to a constant absolute >brightness varying as a direct function of distance. The idea >here is that intervening thin cloud would diffuse and _enlarge_ >the image, so the scaling would be by apparent size and you'd >have objects becoming larger and dimmer (apparently descending) >then smaller and brighter (ascending). <snip> >I think haze diffusion is what is being suggested as generating >angular size and apparent shape. When at its brightest and least >diffused (clear sky, no cloud /haze) the naked eye image of a >planet will be at its sharpest and least scattered, tending >towards its true angular subtense (which is generally close to >the lower limit of resolution of the eye) limited only by >"optical defects due to brightness". When scattered through >diffusing cloud, the angular subtense of the image would be >enlarged, acquiring "shape" as it becomes dimmer (per unit >angular area). Ex hypothesi, that is. Ok, thanks for the additional information. I'm not sure that this really clears things up much though, at least as far as I'm concerned. As I understand it, ex hypothesi, it is haze diffusion which produces the apparent "halo" effect or illusion that the objects are lighting up the clouds from below. Now if you are saying that the apparent large size of the objects is due to this same haze diffusion, then it would appear that, ex hypothesi, the haze diffusion is being used to account for two quite separate and contradictory phenomena. How is this possible? Also, while it's certainly true that haze diffusion could generate a saucer shape and apparently enlarged image (although whether enlarged enough is another question), it's in the nature of haze diffusion that it blurs out the image (it is in effect a low-pass frequency filter). This means that any fine detail in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 18:52:16 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:41:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Sparks >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:56:31 +0000 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:34:19 -0800 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <snip> >>I don't recall saying anything about _all_ academic debunkers >>working for the CIA. <snip> >>1. The Church Senate investigation in the 1970s which found that >>some 500 journalists were on the CIA payroll. >I didn't claim that such things do not go on. But they have to >be understood in the context of the times. I have to agree with Dick here, we need better evidence and more direct evidence. I don't recall the Church Committee saying that 500 journalists were on the CIA "payroll" only that some hundreds had been listed as contacts for the CIA at some point or other in the previous quarter century. Few journalists were actually on CIA "payroll." Numerous businessmen, academics and foreign travelers have been contacts of the CIA Domestic Contact Service (by whatever name the unit has operated since OSS in WWII). That doesn't make them CIA "spies" or CIA employees on the Agency "payroll." CIA has had many academics and their institutions on paid consultant positions. Most have been hired by the "overt" directorates of the CIA, in Intelligence and Science & Technology. Does that make them covert agents or spies? One has to get a better grip on internal CIA organization and operational methods rather than speculating based on a monolithic "CIA" label as if everything "CIA" automatically means Bay of Pigs-type paramilitary ops or attempted assassinations. Start with the CIA directorate actually involved in clandestine and covert ops, the DO or Clandestine Service. To the contrary of any such implication of a clandestine aspect, the "CIA" Robertson Panel Report was the product of the CIA's "overt" side, the Office of Scientific Intelligence -- or more accurately was actually the product of the AF imposed on the CIA against OSI's wishes. The Robertson Panel and Report were manipulated by the AF to get what the AF wanted and then the report was buried for years by both AF and CIA with essentially zero effect (the AF having already decided long before Robertson, in July 1952, to convert Project Blue Book into a PR propaganda operation) . The Robertson Panel consisted of mostly outside academic consultants with no policymaking power and no command authority to issue directives ordering a UFO coverup, and no known coverup orders were ever issued in the name of the Robertson Panel or making any reference to it. You are going to have to explain how an "overt" CIA office such as OSI was actually carrying out clandestine domestic operations on the UFO subject, explaining what on earth OSI would be doing that for and how it could be within OSI's charter, and how OSI could get away with stepping on the toes of the actual "black" side of the Agency, the Clandestine Service, by conducting such covert ops. And then explain how OSI did all this after its charter got demoted by the DCI on Aug. 14, 1952, curtailing its authority and severely limiting its jurisdiction. The Robertson Panel was in Jan 1953.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 16:02:37 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:42:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rudiak >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 22:28:12 +0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:27:49 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 21:04:45 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>So I suppose you have all sorts of 'empirical evidence' about >>>the complete absence of UFO imagery and information in British >>>life in the 1950s, do you? Well let's see it, or else give those >>>of us who were actually alive and sentient in Britain in the >>>1950s some credit for being able to see, hear and read what was >>>going on around us at the time. >>You just won't give up, will you, John? Having lost the >>argument, you throw a red herring into the rhetorical stream. >>Where would psychosocial ufology be without this species of >>fish? >What are you talking about Jerry? I claim, from personal >experience, that there was widespread UFO imagery in popular >culture in Britain in the 1950s. You deny this, but offer no >"empirical evidence", and instead start talking about red- >herrings. To my mind that is almost the dictionary definition of >a red-herring. Another droll aspect to this whole tawdry debate is how John Rimmer falls back on personal 50-year-old memories as his sole defense to his claim. Yes, he distinctly remembers how widespread UFO imagery was in British popular culture back in the 1950s. Aren't these the same 50-year-old memories that debunkers like Rimmer are always haranguing us as being totally unreliable? I guess they are only unreliable if they fall on the "pro" side of the debate. If they support the debunking, then the memories are obviously always crystal clear and can be accepted on complete faith. It's just another example of a hypocritical debunker mirror world were white is black and black is white. Maybe if Rimmer would get off his duff and obtain real evidence, such as his own electronic database searches, he might actually convince some of us that his ancient memories have some basis in fact. In the meantime, his supporting "evidence" doesn't even
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Mini-Men And Uncle Sam From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 17:51:35 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:41:44 -0500 Subject: Mini-Men And Uncle Sam ----- From: T. Peter Park <tpeterpark.nul> To: forteana.nul Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:46:00 -0800 Subject: [forteana] Mini-Men and Uncle Sam - and a tentative explanation? Friends, Forteans, Listmates, Yesterday I posted an article on Mini-Men And Uncle Sam, I originally wrote last year, describing one of the most bizarre and utterly puzzling of Fortean anomalies: encounters with tiny humanoids only a few inches to a foot and a half tall. For your convenient reference, I have copied it below. I called the Mini-Men an excellent example of what Fortean researcher Jerome Clark calls "experience anomalies" - experiences that are certainly possible for human beings to have, but of whose causes, mechanism, or dynamics we have at present not the slightest idea. However, I think I may have a tentative explanation of at least some of them. "Mini-Men" seem highly improbable as an 'ultra-dwarfed' or 'ultra-pygmy' race, subspecies, or offshoot of Homo sapiens, or indeed of any hominid species. They make even the recently discovered 3 1/2 foot tall Homo floresiensis "Hobbits" of Indonesia's Flores Island seem gigantic in comparison. The brains of "Mini-Men" would be far too tiny to possibly support the cultural behavior - wearing clothes and carrying tools or weapons - that has been generally reported for them. Now, studies of the internal brain-cases of Homo floresiensis skulls, indicating small but very complex brains, have shown that, if internally complex enough, brains the size of a chimpanzee's can support fairly complex cultural behavior, such as cooperative hunting and the making of stone tools and weapons. However, "Mini-Man" brains would seem to be several orders of magnitude even smaller than those of the Flores "Hobbits"! However, I think it's possible that at least some Mini-Men might be "tulpas" or "thought-forms," psychic projections in the form of telepathically projected hallucinations from the collective unconscious of a community - somewhat analogously, perhaps, to many "fairy" sightings, and some of the more bizarre "mystery beasts" like "Black Dogs." Some, as I just said, might be "fairy"-like psychic projections or "thought-forms" of a community. Others, however, might be a type of "astral projection" or "traveling clairvpyance" by a single "agent" or "projector." This would be the best explanation, for instance, of the 1945 Reneve sighting, where the diminutive but perfectly human- looking "petit bonhomme" seemed to be terrified of the priest. A mediaeval (judging by the "petit bonhomme's" clothing) peasant or pilgrim must have had an "out of the body" or "astral projection" experience where he psychically "traveled" ahead in time to 1945 and through some quirk briefly appeared to the priest as a diminutive figure - and himself briefly saw the priest as a terrifyingly giganticfigure! Something similar, too, may have happened at Ibagu=E9 in 1973. Four schoolboys searching for botanical specimens in a muddy riverbed saw four Mini-Men also seemingly searching for something. Could they have had a kind of "collective autoscopic hallucination" where they saw distorted and rediced images of themselves? However, the cases with physical traces, like the footprints of the 1976 Dunn NC "Coke Bottle Man" or the innards of the 1913 Farmersville TX green man torn apart by dogs, do present a real complication for my hypthesis, I admit, at any rate for those cases. Peace, T. Peter MINI-MEN AND UNCLE SAM Friends, Forteans, Listmates! A neighbor of mine in Garden City South, Long Island has a 10- or 12-inch-high wooden lawn ornament of Uncle Sam carrying an American flag that often startles me for a moment as I walk past the house. It looks just like a tiny little man, less than a foot tall, walking across the lawn! My neighbor's Uncle Sam ornament reminds me of one of the most curious of all Fortean anomalies: reported encounters with bizarrely tiny humanoids, 6 to 18 inches tall. Such "mini-men" were seen in Farmersville, Texas (1913), Reneve, France (1945), Canby, Oregon (1950), Ibagu=E9, Colombia (1973), Dunn, North Carolina (1976), and Moshav Amihud, Israel (1996). Three farm boys saw a nude, rubbery-looking "little man" in May 1913 near Farmersville, Texas. The incident was only publicized, however, in 1978, when the witness, Silbie Latham, was a grandfather. In 1913, Silbie was twelve years old, chopping cotton with his two brothers on the family farm. Hearing their dogs howling, they found a little man only 18 inches tall. He wore no clothes except a "little round hat" resembling a Mexican hat that seemed "built onto him." His arms hung down just beside him. Everything "looked like a rubber suit including the hat," The boys' dogs jumped on the little man and tore him to pieces, and he seemed to have human internal organs. Next day when the boys visited the spot where the bloody remains had lain, there was no trace of them. In January 1978, Silbie's grandson Lawrence Jones wrote the Chicago-based Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS) describing the incident, which had been discussed in the family for many years. In April, 1978, at CUFOS' request, Larry Sessions of the Fort Worth Museum of Science and History interviewed Silbie Latham at lenghth. (1) A French priest, who insisted on strict anonymity, saw a spear or staff-carrying little old man 15 or 17 centimeters (6 to 6 1/2 inches) tall in the late afternoon of April 20, 1945 while picking mushrooms on a roadside near Reneve, Cote d'Or, Burgundy, east-central France. The "petit bonhomme" appeared 70- 75 years old, a bit chubby, perfectly human-looking, frightened, and out of breath. He wore dark-red clothes, mittens, and boots covering his body, hands, and feet, leaving only his head bare, and carried a little "pike" or "staff" extending 2 centimeters (about an inch) above his head. He seemed to look at the priest with frightened curiosity and amazement. The priest thought for a moment of grabbing the little man and trying to communicate with him, but decided not to risk being wounded by the "pike." Finally, after about half a minute, the "petit bonhomme" disappeared into a nearby thicket without the priest having a chance to stop him. For 30 years, "M. l'abb=E9 X" kept his astonishing encounter to himself. in 1975, however, in the interests of science, he contacted a French ufological society, the "Groupement d'Etude de Ph=E9nomenes A=E9riens" ("Aerial Phenomena Study Group"). The G.E.P.A. sent a representative, Henry-Jean Besset, to Reneve to interview the priest, invited him to Paris to speak with other G.E.P.A. members, and had him show French ufologists the site of his original 1945 encounter in Reneve. (2) Kenneth Arnold, the pilot who saw the original "flying saucers" near Mount Rainier in June 1947, began investigating UFO's and other Fortean mysteries in his spare time. In April 1950, Arnold interviewed a Canby, Oregon woman about her "little man" sighting, repeating her story years later in a lecture on "How It All Began." University of Oregon graduate Ellen Jonerson, "a very intelligent person," saw a dark-skinned, 9- to 12-inch-tall "little man" wearing "a little romper and a sort of plaid shirt" walk with a "waddling" motion across her breezeway, pass under the running board of a car, and disappear. (3) Four schoolboys saw four tiny entities 8 inches tall on August 10, 1973 near Ibagu=E9, Colombia. The boys were searching for botanical specimens in a muddy riverbed, when they saw four small beings standing under a stone footbridge, apparently looking for something in the mud. They were dressed in white, with tiny gray caps on their heads. As the boys walked towards them, the little beings disappeared "as though by magic." The boys searched the area and found tiny footprints. I can't help but note the odd coincidence of four boys searching for botanical specimens seeing four "mini-men" also seemingly searching for something! (4) The best-known modern "mini-man" was probably the "Coke bottle man" seen near Dunn, North Carolina in October 1976 by an 8- year-old boy and a 20-year-old woman. Little Tonnlie Barefoot was playing in a cornfield near his home on October 12, when he saw a little man "not much bigger than a Coke bottle," wearing a black "German-type hat," a white tie, a blue top and trousers, and black boots. He reached for something in his pocket, froze, squeaked like a mouse, and ran off through the cornstalks, leaving behind footprints 2 1/4 long by 1 inch wide with bootmarks. Shirley Ann McCrimmon, coming home from a party just before daybreak on October 25, saw a little man with light-brown skin, wearing boots and a thin garment. He shone a tiny bright yellow light in her eyes, and ran away when she screamed. Dogs also barked at him. Footprints were again found, in hard ground, but none in the soft ground where he had stood, and in the cornfield the footprints ended abruptly. Interestingly, the Cherokee of the western Carolinas had legends of a race of little people called the Tsundige'wi "with very queer shaped bodies, hardly tall enough to reach up to a man's knee." However, the 1976 Dunn mini-men were of perfectly normal human appearance other than their diminutive size, in contrast to the "very queer shaped bodies" of the Tsundige'wi. (5) The Israeli press reported an encounter with a truly little green man, only two inches tall, in late 1996, from Moshav Amihud, a collective agricultural settlement in northern Israel. A 34-year-old woman, Ziona Damatai, and her brorher-in-law discovered him in their barn one day. Those who saw him were expecially puzzled by the greenish liquid he continuously oozed. He seemed to exude more liquid than his tiny body could be expected to contain. The little green man finally shattered into pieces when somebody toucjed with a stick. (6) As to what these mini-men could "really" be, I have no idea! They are, I think, an excellent example of what Fortean researcher Jerome Clark calls "experience anomalies" - experiences that are certainly possible for human beings to have, but of whose causes, mechanism, or dynamics we have at present not the slightest idea. Best regards, T. Peter REFERENCES (1) Janet Bord and Colin Bord, Unexplained Mysteries of the 20th Century (Chicago: Contemporary Books, 1989), pp. 146-147, citing Alex Evans, "Encounters with Little Men," Fate, November 1978, pp. 83-85; Jerome Clark, Unexplained! Strange Sightings, Incredible Occurrences & Puzzling Physical Phenomena , rev. edn.(Canton, MI: Visible Ink Press, 1999). pp. 443-444 (2) Henry-Jean Besset, "Le Petit Bonhomme de Reneve: Une enqu=EAte d'Henry-Jean Besset," Ph=E9nomenes Spatiaux (Paris: publication of G.E.P.A., the "Groupement d'Etude de Ph=E9nomenes A=E9riens"), No. 45, September 1975, pp. 21-27. [article courtesy of Jean-Luc Rivera] (3) Kenneth Arnold, "How It All Began," in Curtis Fuller, ed., Proceedings of the First International UFO Congress (New York: Warner Books, 1980), p. 26, quoted in Michael D. Winkle, "Monsters You Never Heard Of! Mini-Man" http://www.geocities.com/laxaria.miniman.html "Strange and Unexplained! - Fairies" http://www.skygaze.com/content/strange/Fairies.shtml (4) Bord and Bord, Unexplained Mysteries of the 20th Century, pp. 155, 322, citing Gordon Creighton, "Tiny Entities Reported in Colombia,"Flying Saucer Review, Vol. 21, No. 5, p. 33. (5) Bord and Bord, Unexplained Mysteries of the 20th Century, pp. 155-157, citing Fred H. Bost, "A Few Small Steps on the Earth & A Tiny Leap for Mankind," Pursuit, Vol. 10, No. 2, pp. 50-53. On the Tsundige'wi, see James Mooney, Myths of the Cherokee (Nashville, TN: Charles and Randy Elder, 1982 [originally published in the 19th Annual Report of the Bureau of American Ethnology,1900], p. 325, cited in Michael D. Winkle, "Haunted North Carolina: Up These Heights and Down These Hollows" <http://www.prairiehists.com/hollows.html>, which also quotes the Bords' account of the Dunn sightings, suggesting that the "Coke bottle man" may have been a modern manifestation of theTsundige'wi. Winkle cites the Dunn sightings in "Monsters You Never Heard Of! Mini-Man" as a close analogue to Ellen
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 22:26:46 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:46:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Friedman >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:56:31 +0000 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:34:19 -0800 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <snip> >>Since organizations like the CIA had secret spy scientists and >>journalists working for them, why is it so hard to believe that >>a Menzel or a Klass could have been one of them? >Because there are far simpler human explanations available and >they don't fit the profile. The simplest explanation is that Menzel was the designated debunker of MJ-12. He had written science fiction. His role would have been to keep scientists away from the subject. Somebody who knew him very well for decades told me would have enjoyed knowing that he was smarter than other people and he could fool them. It is interesting that an 8 page appreciation of him in Sky and Telescope after his death, and a much more recent 100th anniversary celebration of his birth, said nothing at all about his more than 30 years as a paid concultant with the NSA and its Navy predecessor as told to JFK in 1960, and his classified work for 30 companies and his TS Ultra clearance with the CIA and his work as a cryptographer. Did the graduate students you dealt with mention these details? Did McDonald or Hynek ever mention them?. My one run-in with him didn't give me a good opinion of him. That doesn't mean he wasn't debunking for the government and MJ-12. It is the easiest explanation for the crummy explanations. Remember Hynek favorably reviewed one of his books. Does anybody on the List know of anyone besides me who actually looked at his Harvard Archives papers, as well as his UFO correspondence at the American Philosophical Society Library in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 U.S. Move Beginning Of Slide To Obscurity From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:49:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:49:54 -0500 Subject: U.S. Move Beginning Of Slide To Obscurity Source: The Western Daily Press - Bristol, UK http://tinyurl.com/c39xy 15 November 2005 U.S. Move Was Beginning Of A Slide To Obscurity A Chance sighting of one of the earliest recorded crop circles in a West field in 1983 sparked a 22-year obsession for Colin Andrews, and led him on a journey from ordinary local government worker to American-based deep thinker. He gave up his job to devote his life to solving the puzzle, and as the number and complexity of the circles grew, Mr Andrews became the leading authority on the mystery, writing the first books on the subject and forming the first research organisation - the Circles Phenomenon Research International (CPRI). By the heady summer of 1990 - the year crop circles went from a West Country phenomenon to a global wonder - Mr Andrews was at the centre of the whirlwind. He headed up the massive - and so far unrepeated - research vigil over the Wiltshire fields with Japanese TV, the BBC and the Army. In the 1990s, he made a lucrative move to the US, but gradually other experts became more popular, and Mr Andrews' move to the US and work with Lawrence Rockefeller and Hollywood - he advised the makers of the movie Signs - alienated him from his roots in the crop circle community.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Bright Lights Small City From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:53:52 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:53:52 -0500 Subject: Bright Lights Small City Source: Helena Independant Record - Helena, Montana, USA http://www.helenair.com/articles/2005/11/18/top/a01111805_04.txt 11/18/05 Bright Lights, Small City By Alana Listoe IR Staff Writer Jon Axline, historian for the Montana Department of Transportation, doesn't necessarily study Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs) because he believes in them =97 but he does feel there is validity and worthiness in studying the history of the recorded sightings. "I'm really interested in the unusual history of the United States," Axline said. "The more unusual tells you a different side of the story. It shows people's fears during the time." Thursday night's presentation was the third time Axline, adjunct history professor at the University of Montana n Helena College of Technology, gave this speech, but on this occasion he says he was a bit nervous. "I woke up at 4 a.m. this morning thinking about it," he said. "The topic is unusual, so I'm a little nervous." There were few people in attendance, but those who did show up left with not answers, but possibly more questions. Axline's presentation, "Like Two Dimes in the Sky: The Great Falls Flying Saucer Film and the Cold War in Montana," focused on the flying saucer sightings of Nicolas Mariana, the manager of a Great Falls baseball team, in August of 1950. Mariana recorded about 20 seconds of color images of two bright circular objects passing in the sky =97 and he believed to his death the lights were UFOs. Mariana was a journalist and a Corporal in the Air Force, and, according to Axline, a well-known, honest and reliable member of the Great Falls community. Mariana passed on his footage to officials. To date, his recorded sightings remain classified as "unknown and unexplained." Many UFO sightings took place during this era and whether you believe it was Russian spies, reflections off jets from the Malmstrom Air Force Base, birds that glow or a government conspiracy, it is hard to reject what appears on film to indeed be flying saucers. Axline grew up believing in UFOs, but as he aged he became a skeptic. Today, he is willing to investigate and consider that it may be true. Axline, a published author, believes studying UFOs is a good historical subject and a legitimate field of study, even though his wife and mother don't share his enthusiasm. "I don't make a judgment on the issue," he said. "But you can't always be objective. UFOs are one of my guilty pleasures. I
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Is Huddersfield Really A UFO Hot Spot? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:58:43 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:58:43 -0500 Subject: Is Huddersfield Really A UFO Hot Spot? Source: The Huddersfield Daily Examiner - Yorkshire, U.K http://tinyurl.com/cs22d Nov 17 2005 Is Huddersfield Really A UFO Hot Spot? By The Huddersfield Daily Examiner ARE aliens visiting Huddersfield? It certainly seems so - according to the experts. Previously top secret files have been passed on to the Examiner through the new Freedom of Information Act. The Ministry of Defence reports detailed sightings of UFOs above our town. Further research has shown Kirklees is the most popular stop-off point in West Yorkshire for aliens. Between 2002 and 2004 there were four separate UFO sightings in the skies above Huddersfield and one nearby in Heckmondwike. There were 10 others across the rest of West Yorkshire including some in Leeds, Bradford and Todmorden. The list includes only sightings the MOD cannot explain. Shocked and amazed Huddersfield folk have described the UFOs as looking like "silver balls", "cigars" and even a "flying jellyfish". And just this week another bizarre sighting has occurred. Jon Lockwood, of Holme Moss, and his pal spotted some UFOs in the sky on Monday. Jon said: "A friend and I saw two orange lights stationary for several minutes either side of the mast, too low to be stars. "About an hour later we saw a brighter light in the sky again too low to be a star and it just disappeared in front of our eyes." Around the Christmas period in 2003 several sightings of UFOs were reported in the Huddersfield skies. Dawn Crossley even managed to capture some grainy footage on her camcorder but the MOD have not included these on the list which suggested there was some rational explanation.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:06:50 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 10:25:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Hall >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:26:46 -0600 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:35:36 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 05:30:51 -0600 >>>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>>We may disagree about how reasonable or unreasonable the >>>>assumptions were (given my understanding of human nature they >>>>seem quite plausible to me); however, I am not saying whether >>>>the policy is good or bad, moral or immoral, defensible or >>>>indefensible. We tend to project our notions of right or wrong >>>>onto others, and to assume evil motives when the truth often is >>>>far simpler... and more human. Your realistic options are very >>>>few when you have a tiger by the tail. >>>We've spent a lifetime observing a furiously vicious beast, this >>>tiger, effortlessly bending around to perform, with teeth and >>>tongue, necessary cleanup duties on its own anal pore, and yet >>>believe we are _remotely_ safe holding fast to its tail? >>I didn't say anything about 'safe' either. You seem not to >>understand my point. If you are human, have a tiger by the tail, >>and are badly frightened, you are afraid to let go. You have no >>real options. If you let go, it will likely be fatal. >Still - it seems to me that it's been many decades holding that >tail and the grasp we have on it slips steadily, anyway. This >slip to oblivion accelerates with each year *elected* offices >are held by double-deserting dry-drunks with delusions of >grandeur, and the inevitability of that slip suggests another >variable be introduced into the equation. How about taking a big >hungry bite out of the tail? Say. >How different would the future have been if McDonald had been >allowed, buoyed on the support of scientists in a _position_ to >support him against that proxy murderer Philip Klass... allowed >to find his "Firestorm"? >With respect Sir, I don't think you're trying very hard to see >_my_ point. I believe I do see your point and only wish there were something we could do about the situation. Where we disagree, I think, is in what can or should be done about it. The so-called Disclosure movement is rife with fraud and ax- grinding that can only make the situation worse. And when it comes to targets of our wrath, I would never expect anything better out of politicians who (with a few notable exceptions) are spineless wimps.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:37:59 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 10:27:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Hall >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:12:48 EST >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:17:15 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 12:03:38 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>>From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:52:01 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>What I don't accept is rejection of the phenomenon on the >basis >>of preserving the integrity of someone's world view, as in: >>"that's preposterous, such things are impossible." >Pavel, I really look forward each day for your posts. >You've the clarity and maturity that are refreshing in this >field. >Regarding Klass, however, our focus has been on whether he'd >been a member of some secret U.S. group. >Perhaps he was no where near that yet instead had associations >with groups who had an agenda against ufology. Business and >religious and other groups have had a long problem with the >matter and perhaps domestically and or foreign his vehement >gabblings were nothing more than to protect his and their >interests. Greg, I agree that Pavel's posts are clear and cogent. But when you make statements like those above about business and religion having a problem with UFOs, you need to cite some evidence. I have seen absolutely no evidence of either. A number of surveys have been done about religion and UFOs, and most religions have no problem whatsoever. The one exception is extreme fundamentalists because to them everything strange or unfamiliar is the Devil's work. (Actually in this case they may be right!). And when it comes to business, to borrow Budd Hopkins's joke, if
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Meteors May Cause Increase In UFO Reports From: William Bolt <ab5sy.nul> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 19:41:45 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 10:31:24 -0500 Subject: Meteors May Cause Increase In UFO Reports With the Taurid meteor shower, you may see an increase in UFO reports by those unaware of the shower taking place. ----- Source: Space Weather.Com http://spaceweather.com Space Weather News for Nov. 16, 2005 Big Sunspot: An impressive sunspot, "NOAA 822," has appeared on the Earth-facing side of the sun. Measured from end to end, it is wider than Jupiter, and it is crackling with M-class (medium- sized) solar flares. So far none of the explosions has hurled a coronal mass ejection toward Earth. Geomagnetic storms and auroras are possible, however, if this 'spot unleashes a major flare in the days ahead. TAURID FIREBALLS: The Taurid meteor shower, which peaked in early November and should be subsiding, continues to produce fireballs, according to reports submitted to the American Meteor Society. If you're outside at night this week, keep an eye on the sky for bright meteors. ----- Visit: http://spaceweather.com for more information and updates.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: BS In The Desert - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 10:46:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 10:35:09 -0500 Subject: Re: BS In The Desert - Friedman >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:01:35 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: BS In The Desert >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:29:26 -0800 >>Subject: Re: BS In The Desert >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 09:07:10 -0500 >>>Subject: UFO UpDate: BS In The Desert >Greetings Ed! >I too found Kevin Randle's review and comments of Nick Refern's >latest book on the Roswell UFO incident to be good and I also >agree with you that Nick Redfern's thesis was not original, >although Nick was approached by some dubious sources with new >information on what really happened in New Mexico in 1947. >My recent post to the UFO UpDates list, 'Nuclear Bombs Over >Canada', resulted in many responses both on and off the List. >Although what I wrote about the two nuclear bombs that were >dropped and detonated over Canada in 1950 was intended as an >example of the extreme secrecy and lies about such incidents >that even Ministers of National Defense are kept in the dark >about what really happened, many of those who responded insisted >that this nuclear incident had nothing to do with the subject of >UFOs. After seeing the list above, I would argue that it just >may have everything to do with UFOs! I don't understand why nuclear bombs and detonated are used in the same sentence - several times - when in fact there was no nuclear chain reaction.There was no nuclear detonation >a. From recently released and previously secret documents, it is >now known that early above ground nuclear tests were conducted >by the U.S. in New Mexico, Nevada and even in the islands of the >South Pacific where U.S. citizens and others were not told or >lied to about the potential dangers of nuclear fallout. During >some military exercises, even U.S. troops were postioned in >close proximity to these above ground nuclear tests. Russian and >Chinese troops and civilians were treated no differently. It has been known for years that nuclear weapons were actually detonated in many locations without adequate notice to the troops etc. >b. It is no secret that the Roswell UFO crash in 1947 and other >major UFO incidents happened at restricted military or secret >scientific installations that had nuclear facilities or nuclear >bomb facilities. For example, in 1947 Roswell was home to the >only nuclear-capable wing of the U.S. Air Force. Other examples >are available through Todd Lemire, a MUFON investigator from >Michigan who has researched the close connection between UFOs >and nuclear facilities. The Roswell UFO crash occured out in the boonies many dozens of miles from the Roswell Army Air Field. It did not occur at a secret or restricted nuclear facility. >c. It is now known that the U.S. deployed nuclear bombs in many >other countries, some without their knowledge and/or permission. >Also, it was through legal nuclear technology transfer from >Canada to India, that it was able to build and explode its own >nuclear bomb. There are many examples of illegal activities that >have lead other nations such as Israel, South Africa, etc. to >acquire nuclear material and/or technology that have allowed >them to build and explode, in secret, their own nuclear bombs. >d. The first nuclear chain reaction (not including what Nature >accidently achieved in Gabon, Africa several billion years ago) >was achieved by physicists at the University of Chicago in 1942, >Stan Friedman's (and Carl Sagan's) alma mater. If this nuclear >test under the west stands of Stagg Field was allowed to proceed >further, they would have blown up the university and most of >Chicago too. This is scaremongering balderdash. The pile used pieces of natural uranium in a high purity Carbon moderator pile.Hardly able to produce a nuclear weapon. Not nearly as easy as suggested here. >Other examples of incompetent and dangerous use of >highly volatile material should include the U.S.'s solution to >its disposal problems with tons of depleted uranium - dump it on >other countries! Please site some examples of depleted uranium being dumped on other countries. It has been used in shells used in Iraq and other places. Hardly the same thing. Please note the zillion tons of radioactive material being released at coal fired power plants world wide every year. >This would have been the second time Chicago was destroyed, the >first time was in 1871 when Chicago and dozens of other towns >and cities in several mid-western states were simultanteously >destroyed by fires that, according to witnesse accounts found in >newspapers at the time, was caused by objects falling from space >which, if true, would make Chicago the first major U.S. city >destroyed by ET causes - an American Tunguska event! >There are many other examples I could of mentioned above for >each category but I hope that I made my point. If the Roswell >UFO incident is eventually conclusively shown to have been a >UFO(s) that were not manufactured here on Earth, it wouldn't >rule out U.S. scientific/technological involvement in this >incident or justify our conclusion that everything in Nick >Redfern's book was wrong. I did a review of Nick Redfern's book that was published in UFO Magazine and is on my website at: www.stantonfriedman.com I certainly didn't suggest that everything in his book was wrong. Just the basic premises about both Roswell and radiation shielding for nuclear aircraft. >Finally, as for those who insist that the nuclear bombs on the >two U.S. bombers which dropped and detonated them over Canada in >1950 did not create any radioactive risk to Canadians since they >had no nuclear cores, I want to ask them just how those many >live nuclear bombs were transported to the U.S. SAC base at >Goose Bay, Labrador. According to my Rand McNally you still >cannot get there from the U.S. by road and I suspect a sea route >through the icebergs of the North Atlantic and then along the >long and narrow channel to Goose Bay would not be a safer way to >transport their nuclear cores or complete bombs either. Since >Canada did not perform tests immediately after these two nuclear >incidents to determine the amount, if any, of radioactive >fallout from these two nuclear bombs which were detonated (i.e. >vapourized or pulverized with powerful conventional explosives) >over Canada, what we either of us have to say now over half a >century after the fact nothing more than an academic debate. Nick, you're making it sound as though guns without bullets can be used to shoot people. Maybe they can be used to beat people to death... hardly the same thing. Sounds like a phobia about
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 60 Years And No Answers To Bermuda Mystery From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 10:52:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 10:52:10 -0500 Subject: 60 Years And No Answers To Bermuda Mystery Source: The Los Angeles Times - California, USA http://tinyurl.com/cbkgu November 18, 2005 60 Years Later, Still No Answers To Bermuda Mystery The House honors the 27 Navy airmen who disappeared in 1945 during a routine mission off Florida. =46rom Associated Press WASHINGTON =97 The disappearance of Flight 19, a Navy mission that began the myth of the Bermuda Triangle, is still unexplained but not forgotten 60 years later. The 27 Navy airmen who disappeared somewhere off Florida's coast on Dec. 5, 1945, were honored in a House resolution Thursday. Rep. E. Clay Shaw Jr. (R-Fla.) said he hoped the gesture would help bring closure for surviving families. What happened is the question that has befuddled, entertained and tormented skeptics and believers in the Bermuda Triangle, a stretch of ocean between Puerto Rico, Bermuda and Miami that some believe is an area of supernatural phenomena. "There's just so many weird things here that experienced pilots would have not acted this way," Shaw said. "Something happened out there." Five U.S. Navy Avenger airplanes left the Fort Lauderdale Naval Air Station on a routine training mission over the Bahamas. The five pilots and nine crewmen, led by instructor Lt. Charles Taylor, were to practice bombing and low-level strafing on small coral shoals 60 miles east of the naval station. They were then to turn north to practice mapping and then southwest, back home. The flight, which Navy pilots took three or four times a day, should have lasted three hours. According to radio reports overheard by ground control and other airplanes, the compasses on Taylor's plane malfunctioned 90 minutes into the mission. With no instruments to guide him over the open ocean, Taylor thought the flight had drifted off-course and was south over the Florida Keys. As a result, he directed the planes to fly due north to hit land. "He was not in the Keys, he was out in the end of the Bahama chain," said David White, who at the time was a flight instructor stationed at Fort Lauderdale. "When he went north, he was going out to the wide ocean." The mystery deepened when, a few hours later, a Navy rescue airplane, a Martin Mariner with 13 crewmen, also vanished. Though a passing ship reported seeing bright lights in the sky indicating what could be an explosion, no evidence of the Mariner was ever found. Several ocean expeditions, documentaries and books offer varying theories, ranging from paranormal activities to sightings of alien activity. The SCI-FI cable channel will broadcast a new documentary Nov. 27.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:27:07 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:02:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Ledger >From: Brad Sparks <RB47x.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 18:52:16 EST >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:56:31 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:34:19 -0800 >>>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? ><snip> >>>I don't recall saying anything about _all_ academic debunkers >>>working for the CIA. ><snip> >>>1. The Church Senate investigation in the 1970s which found that >>>some 500 journalists were on the CIA payroll. >>I didn't claim that such things do not go on. But they have to >>be understood in the context of the times. <snip> >Strangely, when I posted on UpDates earlier this year my quotes >from the Church Committee on COINTELPRO-type ops and how those >techniques seem to be getting applied to the UFO community right >to the present day by certain agencies, there was deafening >silence. At the risk of introducing a splinter thread re. the CIA and their international clones, I've brought this intelligence involvement myself on occassion and it attracted little interest. While writing Dark Object I delved into the origins of domestic intelligence in the US related to [actually driven by] Canadian/British Intel beginning back in 1939 and some of the curious links that continued after the war. All of it got cut from the final draft and explained as "it would be of no interest to the American reader."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:27:53 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:03:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rogerson >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:46:47 -0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:52:13 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:55:13 -0600 >>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 18:56:55 +0000 >>>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>>That's right Jerry, it was just a happy coincidence that Gill's >>>>close friend Norman Crutwell was a correspondent of contactee >>>>loving, Trench edited FSR, and goes around talking about and >>>>showing pictures of _Adamski's craft_. Note also the whole >>>>idea of the _ufonauts_ waving like tourists at the witnesses is >>>>part and parcel of this space brothers philosophy. >>>They just won't give up, will they? >>Not when there's still people like you around, Jerry, who just >>ignore the facts if they don't fit your theories. After all, any >>mystery is better than an explanation. >Hi John >Speaking of ignoring facts, what about the rather challenging >cases that Brad brought up near the beginning of this thread and >which _nobody_ on this list seems to want to go near? Any >thoughts on the triangulated sightings by a/c designer Clarence >Johnson and a planeload of Lockheed test pilots and >aerodynamicists? There's something there for everybody - if you >don't fancy a physical science approach you could try the theory >that they were all saucer-happy, influenced by the Lockheed >"contactee" tendency. Or are you content to go along with Blue >Book's "lenticular cloud"? Brad Sparks simply tosses out these lists of cases without providing any bibliographical references or details, so how could anybody comment meaningfully on them. Unless these cases were the subject of a detailed, multidisciplinary critical
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Looking For Book From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 08:06:40 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:06:59 -0500 Subject: Looking For Book Hi folks, Hope all is well with everyone. I'm hoping for some help here. I have just gone through a lot of my stuff after doing some remodeling and can't find a book. I'm hoping someone, somewhere out there has a copy or knows where I can get one. It was a self-published biography written by Sean David Morton about his life. He published it in the early ninties I believe and I can't recall the title. Anyhow, Russ Estes was going to send me a copy sometime ago when I originally had problems locating it. Please contact me directly if anyone knows where to find this book. Thanks!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: 60 Years And No Answers To Bermuda Mystery - From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:31:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:12:30 -0500 Subject: Re: 60 Years And No Answers To Bermuda Mystery - >Source: The Los Angeles Times - California, USA >http://tinyurl.com/cbkgu >November 18, 2005 >60 Years Later, Still No Answers To Bermuda Mystery >The House honors the 27 Navy airmen who disappeared >in 1945 during a routine mission off Florida. >From Associated Press >WASHINGTON =97 The disappearance of Flight 19, a Navy mission that began the myth of the Bermuda Triangle, is still unexplained but not forgotten 60 years later. <snip> >The SCI-FI cable channel will broadcast a new documentary Nov. 27. >[UFO UpDates thanks Loren Coleman and: > www.cryptomundo.com > for the lead] With the hype that is now taking place for the ne mini-series "Triangle" that the SciFi Channel is airing in December, I was suprised to see the reference to a "documentary" on the same subject. But premieres, as described, on November 27th at 9:00pm est. Viewers will be invited to: "Explore the mysterious phenomenon known as the Burmuda Triangle, in this groundbreaking scientific investigation sponsored by the Sci-Fi channel and hosted by MSNBC anchor Lester Holt." On the web site: http://www.scifi.com/trianglesecrets/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 18 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:51:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:02:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Sandow >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:27:53 +0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >Brad Sparks simply tosses out these lists of cases without >providing any bibliographical references or details, so how >could anybody comment meaningfully on them. Unless these >cases were the subject of a detailed, multidisciplinary >critical investigation at the time, they are likely to >forever remain in the _insufficient evidence_ or at best >_very puzzling if occured exactly as reported in the >literature_ category. I'm usually a fairly mild-mannered guy, but here I'll say that we're looking at a notable example of intellectual bad faith. If, Peter, you don't know the cases Brad puts forth, this might be because he knows the UFO literature and case record better than you do. He knows these things better than most of us. So a more intelligent response might be: "I don't know about this case, but certainly if it really is as Brad describes it, then it's something I ought to know about. Since, after all, I offer pronouncements about UFOs and ufology any time anybody offers me a dog biscuit. So, Brad, please tell me more. Where can I find the details of this case you mention?" And as for the multidisciplinary critical investigation, conducted at the time of the sighting, this is really monumental intellectual bad faith. We all know that such investigations didn't happen. That's one of the big problems UFO research faces, whether you think UFO reports show something anomalous, or even if you're a skeptic about that. (Because, after all, if the investigation isn't good enough to prove that something truly anomalous occurred, then how can it be good enough to prove that something anomalous _didn't_ happen? Notice, Peter, that I said "prove," so kindly don't wave the Occam's Razor flag at this point.) The question, Peter, would therefore be whether the data, as tentatively (and sometimes, after all, not so tentatively) established by whatever investigation might have taken place, is enough to make a reasonable person feel that the fuller investigation you ask for _ought_ to take place. Of past cases, if possible, but especially of cases unfolding right now. It's a delightful game - very self-empowering - to sit home and, like a kid sorting his baseball card collection, put cases in one category or another. But when one of those categories is "we don't know enough about this," and all potentially revelatory cases go in that category, and when one is satisfied with one's work after putting them there, then, I submit, we haven't actually learned anything about UFOs. But we have learned a lot about the kid with the baseball cards, whose real position, stripped of all the smirking evasions, would seem to be, "I don't know spit about what these cases might show, and I'm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 19 National Geographic TV's Chupa Doc From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 9:45:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 07:17:32 -0500 Subject: National Geographic TV's Chupa Doc We were invited to participate in a documentary on Chupacabras, part of the series, Is It Real? The program airs this week on the National Geographic Channel. Sunday, November 20 at 6:00 pm EST Monday, November 21 at 4:00 pm EST For repeat viewings, please check the National Geographic Channel schedule at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 19 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 20:54:21 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 07:19:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rimmer >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 16:02:37 -0800 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 22:28:12 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>What are you talking about Jerry? I claim, from personal >>experience, that there was widespread UFO imagery in popular >>culture in Britain in the 1950s. You deny this, but offer no >>"empirical evidence", and instead start talking about red- >>herrings. To my mind that is almost the dictionary definition of >>a red-herring. >Another droll aspect to this whole tawdry debate is how John >Rimmer falls back on personal 50-year-old memories as his sole >defense to his claim. Yes, he distinctly remembers how >widespread UFO imagery was in British popular culture back in >the 1950s. No, not my sole basis of the claim, I have plenty of documentary evidence in the form of old newspapers articles, etc., etc., that I could wave at you, but of course it would only be anecdotal. >Aren't these the same 50-year-old memories that debunkers like >Rimmer are always haranguing us as being totally unreliable? I >guess they are only unreliable if they fall on the "pro" side of >the debate. If they support the debunking, then the memories >are obviously always crystal clear and can be accepted on >complete faith. It's just another example of a hypocritical >debunker mirror world were white is black and black is white. Anyway, I'm glad that you and Jerry are now so happy to accept that memory is a very unreliable mistress. >Maybe if Rimmer would get off his duff and obtain real evidence, >such as his own electronic database searches, he might actually >convince some of us that his ancient memories have some basis in >fact. In the meantime, his supporting "evidence" doesn't even >merit being tossed in the laugh basket. It belongs in the loony >bin. I can't think of any database searches for ice-cream vans,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 19 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:37:39 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 08:44:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Balaskas >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:37:59 +0000 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:12:48 EST >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <snip> >>Regarding Klass, however, our focus has been on whether he'd >>been a member of some secret U.S. group. >>Perhaps he was no where near that yet instead had associations >>with groups who had an agenda against ufology. <snip> >A number of surveys have been done about religion and UFOs, and >most religions have no problem whatsoever. >The one exception is extreme fundamentalists because to them >everything strange or unfamiliar is the Devil's work. (Actually >in this case they may be right!). Hi Guys! I agree with Richard that most traditional religions have no problem with UFOs or intelligent beings not from this Earth. In fact, their beliefs demand that this be true. As for Klass being a member of some secret U.S. group, there is some things that we do know. According to Robert Sheaffer's article 'Philip J. Klass (1919-2005)' in the November/December 2005 issue of 'Skeptical Inquirer', on page 18 he writes: --- One unmistakable "Klassic" trait was his fearlessness. Phil always followed a Line of argument to its conclusion and argued all of it forcefully, no matter who might disagree or be offended. During the "missile gap" debates of the 1960s, Klass, using a pseudonym, wrote a series of reasoned articles that might of ended his career as an aerospace journalist had his identity leaked out. And when con-fronting UFO promoters, Phil was unstoppable. He delighted in the role he called "skunk at the garden party" at pro-UFO conferences that he frequently attended, naturally at his own expense." --- Although I too did not agree with most of Philip Klass' opinions or conclusions regarding the subject of UFOs and about certain specific UFO incidents, I know that for a new science to move forward and be taken seriously by others it must have its "Devil Advocates". Philip Klass played this role well and ufology owes him a big thanks. For those unfamiliar with Klass's ideas and contributions to ufology, you can still read about them in his 'Skeptics UFO Newsletter (SUN)' that he started in 1989 and publised every two months until he stopped in 2002 for health reasons. www.csicop.org/klassfiles/Home.html The same article on Klass by Sheaffer also talks about how Stanton Friedman lost a big bet to Klaas and, not mentioned in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 19 Re: 60 Years And No Answers To Bermuda Mystery - From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 21:51:30 -0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 08:46:38 -0500 Subject: Re: 60 Years And No Answers To Bermuda Mystery - >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Date: Friday, November 18, 2005 3:52 PM >Subject: 60 Years And No Answers To Bermuda Mystery >Source: The Los Angeles Times - California, USA >http://tinyurl.com/cbkgu >November 18, 2005 >60 Years Later, Still No Answers To Bermuda Mystery >The House honors the 27 Navy airmen who disappeared in 1945 >during a routine mission off Florida. >From Associated Press >WASHINGTON - The disappearance of Flight 19, a Navy mission that >began the myth of the Bermuda Triangle, is still unexplained but >not forgotten 60 years later. >The 27 Navy airmen who disappeared somewhere off Florida's coast >on Dec. 5, 1945, were honored in a House resolution Thursday. >Rep. E. Clay Shaw Jr. (R-Fla.) said he hoped the gesture would >help bring closure for surviving families. >What happened is the question that has befuddled, entertained >and tormented skeptics and believers in the Bermuda Triangle, a >stretch of ocean between Puerto Rico, Bermuda and Miami that >some believe is an area of supernatural phenomena. >The SCI-FI cable channel will broadcast a new documentary >Nov. 27. Lawrence Kusche offered a plausible answer in his 1980 book, The Disappearance Of Flight 19. But it is likely few people know about it, and even fewer have read it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 19 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 22:01:09 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 08:48:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Hall >From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:51:53 -0500 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:27:53 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>Brad Sparks simply tosses out these lists of cases without >>providing any bibliographical references or details, so how >>could anybody comment meaningfully on them. Unless these >>cases were the subject of a detailed, multidisciplinary >>critical investigation at the time, they are likely to >>forever remain in the _insufficient evidence_ or at best >>_very puzzling if occured exactly as reported in the >>literature_ category. >I'm usually a fairly mild-mannered guy, but here I'll say that >we're looking at a notable example of intellectual bad faith. >If, Peter, you don't know the cases Brad puts forth, this might >be because he knows the UFO literature and case record better >than you do. He knows these things better than most of us. So a >more intelligent response might be: "I don't know about this >case, but certainly if it really is as Brad describes it, then >it's something I ought to know about. Since, after all, I offer >pronouncements about UFOs and ufology any time anybody offers me >a dog biscuit. So, Brad, please tell me more. Where can I find >the details of this case you mention?" >And as for the multidisciplinary critical investigation, >conducted at the time of the sighting, this is really monumental >intellectual bad faith. We all know that such investigations >didn't happen. That's one of the big problems UFO research >faces, whether you think UFO reports show something anomalous, >or even if you're a skeptic about that. (Because, after all, if >the investigation isn't good enough to prove that something >truly anomalous occurred, then how can it be good enough to >prove that something anomalous _didn't_ happen? Notice, Peter, >that I said "prove," so kindly don't wave the Occam's Razor flag >at this point.) >The question, Peter, would therefore be whether the data, as >tentatively (and sometimes, after all, not so tentatively) >established by whatever investigation might have taken place, is >enough to make a reasonable person feel that the fuller >investigation you ask for _ought_ to take place. Of past cases, >if possible, but especially of cases unfolding right now. It's a >delightful game - very self-empowering - to sit home and, like a >kid sorting his baseball card collection, put cases in one >category or another. But when one of those categories is "we >don't know enough about this," and all potentially revelatory >cases go in that category, and when one is satisfied with one's >work after putting them there, then, I submit, we haven't >actually learned anything about UFOs. But we have learned a lot >about the kid with the baseball cards, whose real position, >stripped of all the smirking evasions, would seem to be, "I >don't know spit about what these cases might show, and I'm >perfectly happy that way."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 19 Re: 60 Years And No Answers To Bermuda Mystery - From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 17:39:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 09:27:14 -0500 Subject: Re: 60 Years And No Answers To Bermuda Mystery - >Source: The Los Angeles Times - California, USA >http://tinyurl.com/cbkgu >November 18, 2005 >60 Years Later, Still No Answers To Bermuda Mystery >The House honors the 27 Navy airmen who disappeared in 1945 >during a routine mission off Florida. >From Associated Press >WASHINGTON =97 The disappearance of Flight 19, a Navy mission that >began the myth of the Bermuda Triangle, is still unexplained but >not forgotten 60 years later. What puzzles me about this is that I'm fairly confident that at least the larger military aircraft of that era had automatic direction finders aboard. (ADFs.) With multiple aircraft, at least one should have had a working ADF, and been able to detect at least some strong commercial shore stations. A bearing on two of the stations should have given a relatively good fix to the trained pilots, who are familiar with dealing with bearings (azimuth readings relative to where the aircraft is pointed.) One would think that even a relatively inexperienced pilot, faced with fluctuating compasses, would switch on the ADF. Especially if there was confusion among those in the flight as
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 19 MJ-12 & Menzel [was: Who Was Philip J. Klass?] From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 23:00:56 -0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:11:20 -0500 Subject: MJ-12 & Menzel [was: Who Was Philip J. Klass?] >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 22:26:46 -0400 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 12:56:31 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 14:34:19 -0800 >>>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>Since organizations like the CIA had secret spy scientists and >>>journalists working for them, why is it so hard to believe that >>>a Menzel or a Klass could have been one of them? >>Because there are far simpler human explanations available and >>they don't fit the profile. >The simplest explanation is that Menzel was the designated >debunker of MJ-12. He had written science fiction. His role >would have been to keep scientists away from the subject. >Somebody who knew him very well for decades told me would have >enjoyed knowing that he was smarter than other people and he >could fool them. It is interesting that an 8 page appreciation >of him in Sky and Telescope after his death, and a much more >recent 100th anniversary celebration of his birth, said nothing >at all about his more than 30 years as a paid concultant with >the NSA and its Navy predecessor as told to JFK in 1960, and his >classified work for 30 companies and his TS Ultra clearance with >the CIA and his work as a cryptographer. Did the graduate >students you dealt with mention these details? Did McDonald or >Hynek ever mention them?. >My one run-in with him didn't give me a good opinion of him. >That doesn't mean he wasn't debunking for the government and >MJ-12. >It is the easiest explanation for the crummy explanations. >Remember Hynek favorably reviewed one of his books. >Does anybody on the List know of anyone besides me who actually >looked at his Harvard Archives papers, as well as his UFO >correspondence at the American Philosophical Society Library in >Philadelphia? No, I don't know anybody at all. But are we really going to regurgitate Menzel and MJ-12 again? So Menzel was "the designated debunker of MJ-12". And it is the "easiest explanation for the crummy explanations". What on earth has his long association with the NSA, for example, got to do with the Roswell crash? Or his knowledge of Japanese, or his knowledge of encryption? For decoding the writings and strange hieroglyphics on the wreckage, I suppose. Perhaps all those hidden Roswell papers you so desperately want to obtain are in cypher, encrypted by Dr Menzel. Yes, a good
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 19 Rendlesham Newspaper Article From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 08:00:29 -0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:42:47 -0500 Subject: Rendlesham Newspaper Article There's a double-page feature on the Rendlesham Forest UFO incident in today's Daily Express - one of the UK's best selling national newspapers. The paper commissioned me to write the article, which runs to about 2000 words. It's not available online yet, but I hope it will be shortly. If it's not, I'll post the text on my website in the next few days. There's growing media interest in this case in the run-up to the 25th anniversary. Best wishes,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 19 Richard Hall Video Biography Project From: Trevor Page <webmaster.nul> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 08:34:59 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:55:41 -0500 Subject: Richard Hall Video Biography Project Dear Listers, I wanted to announce that the Richard Hall video biography project is underway! Wendy Connors visited Richard and took some 5 hours of interview footage which I have received and I'm currently digitally editing into a finished product. I have volunteered my abilities and equipment to make this happen because I think Richard's history and experience are too important to lose and should be kept for posterity and it's my contribution to the UFO matter (aside from doing the website for Brian Vike). Perhaps Wendy's work is going into a new direction?! :) I will tell you that the footage taken will give you lots of insight into NICAP, the Colorado Project, Richard's views and opinions on the whole subject matter and a whole lot more. You're going to love it. I expect the project to take two or three months to complete depending on my other commitments at which time Richard will be selling the finished DVD. However, I am in need of some assistance. Since this project is a group effort - some music will be provided by some familiars on the UFO UpDates List - I would like to ask the List if they could provide me with any high-quality pictures or scans of NICAP board members, James MacDonald, the Condon Report book cover or any other images of important UFO cases that cannot be gleaned from the Internet for inclusion into the video.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 19 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 08:56:35 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 11:00:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Lehmberg >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:37:39 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:37:59 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 14:12:48 EST >>>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <snip> >One unmistakable "Klassic" trait was his fearlessness. It may be that you are not all that fearless going to Bedlam asylum and making 'sport' of whacking inmates (many more sane, of course, than the slack-jaws beating them) with sticks, I suspect. How well rewarded by the mainstream was this scourge of courage, and how brave does one have to be to _accept_ that reward? Moreover, what did one care _what_ the inmates of the asylum thought about them. The mainstream, I remind, incredibly successful at painting these people as abundantly invalidated, and the mechanism of their inexorable down-dumbing besides. How brave is it to pretend to be stepping forward while going backward all the time. Was it Unka Phil taught Michael Jackson to moonwalk? >Phil >always followed a Line of argument to its conclusion and argued >all of it forcefully, no matter who might disagree or be >offended. Argued fallaciously, unfairly, illogically, senselessly, and badly - dodgy conclusions based on the most ham-handed bias imaginable no matter who it destroyed or ruined >During the "missile gap" debates of the 1960s, Klass, >using a pseudonym, wrote a series of reasoned articles that >might of ended his career as an aerospace journalist had his >identity leaked out. How brave is it to snipe anonymously from around corners in comfortable defilade? Seems a little too much like having cake and eating it too. Cowardly, actually. >And when con-fronting UFO promoters, Phil >was unstoppable. Belligerently so. Insentiently so. Viciously so. John Bolton with an interest in UFOs and a slab of lip instead of moustache. >He delighted in the role he called "skunk at >the garden party" at pro-UFO conferences that he frequently >attended, naturally at his own expense." Why should a gleeful beater of asylum inmates be paid to beat the inmates? Besides, I suspect that he _was_ compensated for the prosecution of his 'interests' such as they tragically were. >--- >Although I too did not agree with most of Philip Klass' opinions >or conclusions regarding the subject of UFOs and about certain >specific UFO incidents, I know that for a new science to move >forward and be taken seriously by others it must have its "Devil >Advocates". Philip Klass played this role well and ufology owes >him a big thanks. Only the way you'd thank Satan for the metal-testing temptations of Christ, or Judas for fingering same and facilitating a very necessary crucifixion... No, Klass was a backstepping scourge, an intractable enemy of progressive thinking and intellectual liberalism, and an aggregate stain on humanity. Indeed, he is the very antithesis of what would be considered a respected ufological opposition. He should not be held out as a good example - ever! In my opinion. >For those unfamiliar with Klass's ideas and contributions to >ufology, you can still read about them in his 'Skeptics UFO >Newsletter (SUN)' that he started in 1989 and publised every two >months until he stopped in 2002 for health reasons. Right. The very next time I can't find the ipecac.<g> >www.csicop.org/klassfiles/Home.html >The same article on Klass by Sheaffer also talks about how >Stanton Friedman lost a big bet to Klaas and, not mentioned in >the article, how Friedman won another big bet from Klass. These >bets were wagered on UFO evidence and UFO disclosure. There you go! They'll only talk about what props up _their_ dodgy argument... _that_ evil rubric and the _usual_ pelicanistic pile of pompously putrescent pule. Philip Klass? No. Not even as a _bad_ example.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 19 Re: Rimmer's 2006 Ufological Schedule - Miller From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 15:04:56 +0000 (GMT) Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 11:07:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Rimmer's 2006 Ufological Schedule - Miller >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:09:31 -0000 >Subject: Re: Rimmer's 2006 Ufological Schedule >>From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 21:55:15 +0000 (GMT) >>Subject: Rimmer's 2006 Ufological Schedule >>The John Rimmer Ufological Schedule for 2006 >>by Stuart Miller Hello Martin ><snip> >>In late 2005, John has been winding down in a debate with >>Jerry Clark and a few others about the Father Gill sighting >>and whether or not Gill, who used the word "mothership" in >>his testimony could possibly have been influenced by >>Adamski or not. A concession here by those arguing that >>Gill had been isolated from such influences would open a >>wedge for John to further attack the credibility of Gill. >>As I indicated, riveting stuff. Of course, no ground was >>given by either side and so for the moment, the debate has >run its course. >Stuart >Thank you. Such a relief to see the UpDates bandwidth used for >its proper and mature purpose (a truly riveting humoresque >about John Rimmer's idle hours) instead of all >this "incredibly dull" argument over matters of ufological >fact and interpretation. >But your description of a futile squaring-up by polarised >protagonists is a caricature. There was a debate which did >result in some actual research and the discovery of new facts. >Perhaps you didn't see it if you were intent on the dynamics >of the relationship between Mr. Rimmer and his transatlantic >nemesis, but there was a middle ground in this "mothership" >debate, and ground was given. It might be as well to look at what I didn't say as much as what I did. I didn't suggest that this type of debate should stop, and neither was I suggesting it was worthless. It's true I did mock the content but I recognise that all the points raised are perfectly valid and are worthy of discussion. I would agrue that sometimes they trail on for a bit too long. To redress the balance slightly, the dynamics of the relationship between John and Jerry have been truly fascinating and at times, very enjoyable. There is no side to this when I say I admire the way Jerry is able to take what at first glance appears to be a perfectly reasonable response from John and turn it round so that John appears to be promoting another agenda altogether. Jerry's writing and debating skills, as well as his knowledge are very clear and have my respect. And I respect the fact that John returns, time and again, unbowed, impervious in the main to the barbs aimed at him, with fresh points and vigour. You are not alone when you say that you found the debates worth while in terms of increasing your knowledge of a case. Only a fool wouldn't learn something from two people well versed in the facts. But again I come back to my main point; ocassionally their relationship causes a debate to perhaps drag on for longer than makes for interesting reading. >>But there's still a month and a half left of this year John >>and I figure that this truly fascinating debate could >>easily be rekindled again with just a modicum of effort. A >>possible source of further conversation could be whether >>Gill was wearing a hat when he sighted the UFO and whether >>in any way this affected his visibility. If he was wearing >>a hat, then the nature of the hat needs to be established >>as the sighting was in the evening and a black hat would >>have further decreased light reflectivity and absorption. >>This thread could take us through to Christmas and would be >>a suitable point at which to rest. >I think your jibe simultaneously misses the mark in two >directions, a) because John Rimmer will never tackle a case on >the level of physics, optics, meteorology etc in the fashion >you implicitly deride - as, what? nerdy? boffinish? >pedantic? - would that he did) but instead will always be >happier to respond in kind to your banter, and b) because the >substantive issues thus marginalised by both of you in this >odd suicide pact are the proper stuff of any worthwhile >discussion. While I was having a go at John for being a bit predictable, you seem to be criticing him for a lack of range and shallowness. I'm happy to announce that John is not an idiot. He is not going to argue in an area where his knowledge base is weak. And yet there is enough substance there to have engaged you and others on this List for some very considerable time. There are limited takers for the type of debate you enjoy Martin. We don't all have science degrees. >>Middle January in my opinion would be the best time to >>revisit one of John's favourites and a case which hasn't >>been touched for oooh, 18 months or so? I am of course >>referring to Trindale. Those of you who have experienced the >>sheer utter ennui of John, Jerry and others point scoring >>off eachother as they go backwards and forwards on the >>minutiae of this case will know what a treat they have in >>store. >Ah the lofty condescension of those gifted with a higher >vision and who gaze down with scorn on the plebeian swamp of >"minutiae" (I jest, but that is how it sounds). You >experienced sheer ennui. I on the other hand (one of those >nameless "others" again) experienced perplexity and curiosity >and decided to do some actual research as a result. >http://trindade-island.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/trindex.htm >>You might ask; what's left to discuss? I don't know for sure >>but I would like to help them if I can. >Well if you don't know for sure you could always try finding >out. I've tried to interest various people in finding out, >including "the Johns", but few takers. You're the third person this week to complain about suggesting topics for discussion and meeting a muted response. Why might that be? It's not a rhetorical question. They don't come much better than the cases that Brad Sparks mentioned. >>Did, for example, the Almirante Saldanha have railings? >>Had they been cleaned? Were some of the witnesses perhaps >>looking at a reflection of the UFO displayed on these >>railings? Etc. >If you'd ever actually studied the Trindade UFO photographs >you would have seen the ship's railings there in the >foreground. You're giving me some cause for concern here Martin. >If you go to the link above you can find out >about the height and gauge of the railings and almost >anything else from deck plans and other photos (though I >confess I neglected to look into how recently the deck had >been swabbed, sorry). Before the research that was prompted >by exchanges on this List I was as ignorant as you about the >Trindade case. So there is a point to these debates, but it's >like seeing fairies - it's not in plain sight but visible out >of the corner of your eye, and if you don't want to believe >in it, you'll never see it. In the end Martin I offered an opinion, that's all. It has no more worth than that. The remedy is in my hands in as much as, if I don't care for what's placed in front of me via my computer screen, I have the option to delete it. The fact that in the main I don't (until read) says something. Although, I think I raised one or two valid points in what I wrote, for example John seemingly contradicting himself on two different Lists, perhaps my target was wrong. It is the dryness of some debates and their extended duration that bores me, although I think by implication at least, that point did come across. You're not here though for my entertainment alone. You can't please us all and if you have one
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 19 Heads-Up Incoming Iridium From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci.nul> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:38:59 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 11:12:03 -0500 Subject: Heads-Up Incoming Iridium From: Michael Ravnitzky <mikerav.nul> To: FOI-L.nul Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 00:44:20 -0500 Subject: Danger from Iridium Comsat reentry DOD Releases Data On Iridium Communications Satellite Re-Entry: Study Shows A 1 In 249 Chance Of Fatality By Michael Ravnitzky mikerav.nul After a five year delay, the Department of Defense has released several reports on the dangers posted by reentering Iridium Communications Satellites. The company managing the 74 satellites in the original cluster considered intentionally bringing the satellites to earth when the company was preparing to file for bankruptcy. Among the findings was that there was a one in 249 chance of a human fatality from falling debris. To get copies of these Iridium reentry studies, contact:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 19 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 07:42:36 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 11:22:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rudiak >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 20:54:21 +0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 16:02:37 -0800 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 22:28:12 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>Another droll aspect to this whole tawdry debate is how John >>Rimmer falls back on personal 50-year-old memories as his sole >>defense to his claim. Yes, he distinctly remembers how >>widespread UFO imagery was in British popular culture back in >>the 1950s. >No, not my sole basis of the claim, I have plenty of documentary >evidence in the form of old newspapers articles, etc., etc., >that I could wave at you, but of course it would only be >anecdotal. Wave ahead, or are you only bluffing? >>Aren't these the same 50-year-old memories that debunkers like >>Rimmer are always haranguing us as being totally unreliable? I >>guess they are only unreliable if they fall on the "pro" side of >>the debate. If they support the debunking, then the memories >>are obviously always crystal clear and can be accepted on >>complete faith. It's just another example of a hypocritical >>debunker mirror world were white is black and black is white. >Anyway, I'm glad that you and Jerry are now so happy to accept >that memory is a very unreliable mistress. Nice, changing what I said. What I did say is that skeptibunkers like you are inconsistent about this, decrying the reliability of ancient memories only when it suits their purposes. >>Maybe if Rimmer would get off his duff and obtain real evidence, >>such as his own electronic database searches, he might actually >>convince some of us that his ancient memories have some basis in >>fact. In the meantime, his supporting "evidence" doesn't even >>merit being tossed in the laugh basket. It belongs in the loony >>bin. >I can't think of any database searches for ice-cream vans, >kiddies' novelty rides and comic books, but I'm sure you must >have them at your fingertips, as you are so sure that British >popular culture in the 1950s was not laced with UFO imagery. Oh, so now it wasn't British newspapers, magazines, and UFO books that assaulted Father Gill with UFO imagery? Father Gill was instead a frequenter of ice-cream vans, kiddy novelty rides, and comic books? Is there also a suggestion here that Gill was one of those priests with a certain fondness for children?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 20 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:27:40 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 08:44:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Clark >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 07:42:36 -0800 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 20:54:21 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 16:02:37 -0800 >>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>>Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 22:28:12 +0000 >>>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>Anyway, I'm glad that you and Jerry are now so happy to accept >>that memory is a very unreliable mistress. >Nice, changing what I said. What I did say is that >skeptibunkers like you are inconsistent about this, decrying the >reliability of ancient memories only when it suits their >purposes. Of course, David, such a slippery (albeit hilariously transparent) rhetorical tactic is absolutely predictable. There would be pelicanists without this sort of thing. But you have almost have to feel sorry for them. What other recourse do they have? >One wonders what new lows of absurdity and innuendo Rimmer >will sink to.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 20 Re: Rendlesham Newspaper Article - Hale From: Roy Hale <roy.nul> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:11:37 -0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 08:46:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Rendlesham Newspaper Article - Hale >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 08:00:29 -0000 >Subject: Rendlesham Newspaper Article >There's a double-page feature on the Rendlesham Forest UFO >incident in today's Daily Express - one of the UK's best selling >national newspapers. >The paper commissioned me to write the article, which runs to >about 2000 words. It's not available online yet, but I hope it >will be shortly. If it's not, I'll post the text on my website >in the next few days. >There's growing media interest in this case in the run-up to the >25th anniversary. Hi Nick, Can you tell me if there is a complete database of UFO Sightings leading up to and after the UFO event at Rendelsham December 1980? Does BUFORA hold such a database, seeming they are the UK's biggest source of UFO public reporting? If so, how does one get access to it? What is the current opinion of today's UFO researchers, as to what went on at Rendelsham?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 20 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:03:38 -0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 08:48:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Shough >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:05:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:46:47 -0000 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>Speaking of ignoring facts, what about the rather challenging >>cases that Brad brought up near the beginning of this thread >>and which _nobody_ on this list seems to want to go near? >>Any thoughts on the triangulated sightings by a/c designer >>Clarence Johnson and a planeload of Lockheed test pilots >>and aerodynamicists? There's something there for everybody >>- if you don't fancy a physical science approach you could >>try the theory that they were all saucer-happy, influenced by >>the Lockheed "contactee" tendency. Or are you content to >>go along with Blue Book's "lenticular cloud"? >What _do_ people do with these cases? Mostly, nothing. But they are the crux of the problem. Nil desperandum! >We have two problems. >1) They happened a long time ago and since nothing became of >them over the intervening years, you are almost guaranteed to >have no further progress in them. So, an inertia sets in >preventing further work via rationalization. I agree it can be frustrating, but I think you are wrong to say that all the information in old cases has been thoroughly exhausted to no avail. I doubt if there is any single case of which this could be wholly true. Of the historical cases that I've been involved with studying in particular detail, the one common feature is just how much latent information there is lying around untapped. Cases where past research has been so profound that we're all reduced to twiddling our thumbs are rare. Generally we do twiddle anyway, but I certainly wouldn't advocate it. >2) Who has the original facts/reports/data? Likely, they are >lost and more rationalization can occur that without the >original witnesses/data, nothing more can be done. "Likely" is guesswork, and wrong in the case mentioned. This one was new to me, too, recently, so I tried to find out. The original reports are not lost. For starters, they are in a 15- page Blue Book file (good "old" Blue Book eh? <g>), an informative discussion of the case and its extensive background by Joel Carpenter (NICAP site) and a brief but detailed entry in Brad Sparks' Unknowns catalogue. >Any cases that seem clearly ET related always seems to be >ignored by "science", although some of these might still be >"enjoyed" by the public. We can leave out the military because >who knows what they really believe about anything. >I mean, if cases like the Coyne-helicopter case of Oct 1973 >where a cigar UFO made them increase altitude by 3000 ft >instead of lose altitude (they were in a dive) with 4 crew witnesses >are not taken seriously by "science" and the military then what is >the use? >So rather than hope these excellent (albeit dusty) cases can >change anything, we need new fresh data similar to them, only >with better "scientific" quality. Well we all want to "know" things for different reasons, but for those of us who are making judgements about second-hand evidence (as opposed to those who have had overwhelmingly doubt-busting personal experiences) the existing data is all we have by which to justify any course of action to ourselves, never mind others. If you already have these "excellent" cases that are "clearly ET related" then I guess the important questions are already answered for you and you don't need any deeper examination of the evidence or your own instincts, motivations and convictions about it. I still do. If you want only to make a case to yourself for $10,000 seed funding for an optical tracking network to satisfy what you described (in another thread) as a purely personal quest, then you've clearly already won the argument, so go and buy it. But if you want to make a case to someone else, then all you can adduce to buttress your argument is (by definition) existing data. Either way, as a matter of conscience or of practical persuasion, you are bound to do your best by the data there is. >Personally, no matter how many decimal points you put on >readings, I doubt science _can_ accept these UFOs are real and >alien. I don't know where this comes from. The prior questions of interest to me are: What manner of thing did Clarence Johnson & co see in December 1953? With what level of confidence can we say that we understand it? Labelling such cases as clearly ET- related cases of alien UFOs, period, indicates to me someone who has stopped thinking about these cases, just as have those hardened disbelievers who can't see any mileage in challenging them and so conveniently forget them. To my mind both sweep
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 20 Re: Gill Sighting - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:03:50 -0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 08:49:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Gill Sighting - Shough >From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 22:26:52 -0000 >Subject: Re: Gill Sighting >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:58:54 -0000 >>Subject: Re: Gill Sighting ><snip> >>Actually no. The suggestion is not that Gill interpreted changing >>relative brightness as being due to a constant absolute >>brightness varying as a direct function of distance. The idea >>here is that intervening thin cloud would diffuse and _enlarge_ >>the image, so the scaling would be by apparent size and you'd >>have objects becoming larger and dimmer (apparently >>descending) then smaller and brighter (ascending). ><snip> >>I think haze diffusion is what is being suggested as >>generating angular size and apparent shape. When >>at its brightest and least diffused (clear sky, no cloud /haze) >>the naked eye image of a planet will be at its sharpest and >>least scattered, tending towards its true angular subtense >>(which is generally close to the lower limit of resolution of the >>eye) limited only by "optical defects due to brightness". When >>scattered through diffusing cloud, the angular subtense of the >>image would be enlarged, acquiring "shape" as it becomes >>dimmer (per unit angular area). Ex hypothesi, that is. >Ok, thanks for the additional information. I'm not sure that >this really clears things up much though, at least as far as >I'm concerned. If you mean you're not sure it's the right explanation then I agree with you. I'm not sure either. I just thought that Manuel Boraz's argument was being misunderstood. >As I understand it, ex hypothesi, it is haze diffusion which >produces the apparent "halo" effect or illusion that the objects >are lighting up the clouds from below. Now if you are saying >that the apparent large size of the objects is due to this same >haze diffusion, then it would appear that, ex hypothesi, the >haze diffusion is being used to account for two quite separate >and contradictory phenomena. How is this possible? Well, as I said this is Manuel Boraz's point and not what "I am saying". But I venture to suggest that his response to you might be to quote Rev. Gill's sighting log to the effect that he did associate the occurrence of the "halo" with the descent and approach of the objects: "As they _descend_through_ the clouds light reflected like large halo on to cloud" [my emphasis]. I suppose it might be difficult for us, given the distance between us and Gill's original perceptions, to gauge at which point along the radius of the diffused patch of light a witness stops seeing an enlarged light source and starts seeing a surrounding halo. Evidently something induced Gill to conclude that the objects were descending, and it would seem strange to us if he had insisted that although they descended they remained the same angular size. He didn't say this of course, leaving us to infer that he thought they appeared larger as they descended, in the normal way, with the addition of a peripheral fuzziness where the "object" merged into its "halo". I don't necessarily insist on this myself, but I do think it would be much easier to rule out Boraz's argument if we could show that the "descents" of the objects involved significant angular motion, but it isn't clear that we can do that. >Also, while it's certainly true that haze diffusion could >generate a saucer shape and apparently enlarged image (although >whether enlarged enough is another question), it's in the nature >of haze diffusion that it blurs out the image (it is in effect a >low-pass frequency filter). This means that any fine detail in >the image, such as that arising from optical defects, which >might be misperceived as landing gear or waving astronauts, >would simply not be there to be misperceived. I agree with you that in respect of the "mother ship", as I've said several times, the extraordinary detail described within an image of reportedly large angular size seems grossly at odds with any kind of simple misperception of Venus due to cloud or optical defects. I can't explain this. And there are other factors that independently bear on the likelihood of such a "radical misperception". However I think Boraz's point, and the one I expanded on above, has to do with the several small secondary objects which are more vulnerable to this argument. I don't think any great detail was reported in these cases, they were just lights which Gill himself conceded were more star- or planet-like than the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 20 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 14:23:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 08:55:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Friedman >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:37:39 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <snip> >Although I too did not agree with most of Philip Klass' opinions >or conclusions regarding the subject of UFOs and about certain >specific UFO incidents, I know that for a new science to move >forward and be taken seriously by others it must have its "Devil >Advocates". Philip Klass played this role well and ufology owes >him a big thanks. >For those unfamiliar with Klass's ideas and contributions to >ufology, you can still read about them in his 'Skeptics UFO >Newsletter (SUN)' that he started in 1989 and publised every two >months until he stopped in 2002 for health reasons. >www.csicop.org/klassfiles/Home.html >The same article on Klass by Sheaffer also talks about how >Stanton Friedman lost a big bet to Klass and, not mentioned in >the article, how Friedman won another big bet from Klass. These >bets were wagered on UFO evidence and UFO disclosure. As might be expected based on past history, Robert Sheaffer was flat out wrong in his description of the agreements between myself and Phil Klass. I made the first payment of $100 in cash (_not_ $250) very publicly on the Lou Gordon TV show in Detroit, after Phil claimed that he was putting his money where his mouth was, which, of course, was not true. I made all 10 payments that were required or a total of $1000. I have no idea where Sheaffer came up with the false claim of $250 - for 20 years. Furthermore, there is absolute proof of this in a letter from Phil to me which accompanied his check for $1000 for proving him wrong about the type face on the Cutler-Twining memo. He said it should have been done in small elite type (he had 9 samples obtained by mail) rather than the large PICA type that was used. The offer was for $100 each for every genuine memo, letter, etc from the NSC offices done in the same size and style type as the CT. Unfortunately, he set a limit of 10. I sent him 14. In his letter he stated "This eases my conscience for having taken $1000 of your money in $100 annual increments as part of our $10,000 agreement". Of course as one might have expected, he had never been to the Ike Library. They had about 250,000 pages of NSC material. At least 3 typewriters had been used. The notion that one can extrapolate from 9 to 250,000 is typical of the intellectual bankruptcy of the pseudo science of anti-ufology. Both his March 3, 1989, letter (page C-8) and a copy of his check, (Page C-9)and our relevant correspondence are included in my "Final Report on Operation Majestic 12", 105 pages, 15th printing, July 2005, available from me at POB 958, Houlton, ME
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 20 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 19:02:23 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 08:58:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rogerson >From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:51:53 -0500 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:27:53 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>Brad Sparks simply tosses out these lists of cases without >>providing any bibliographical references or details, so how >>could anybody comment meaningfully on them. Unless these >>cases were the subject of a detailed, multidisciplinary >>critical investigation at the time, they are likely to >>forever remain in the _insufficient evidence_ or at best >>_very puzzling if occured exactly as reported in the >>literature_ category. >I'm usually a fairly mild-mannered guy, but here I'll say that >we're looking at a notable example of intellectual bad faith. >If, Peter, you don't know the cases Brad puts forth, this might >be because he knows the UFO literature and case record better >than you do. He knows these things better than most of us. So a >more intelligent response might be: "I don't know about this >case, but certainly if it really is as Brad describes it, then >it's something I ought to know about. Since, after all, I offer >pronouncements about UFOs and ufology any time anybody offers me >a dog biscuit. So, Brad, please tell me more. Where can I find >the details of this case you mention?" >And as for the multidisciplinary critical investigation, >conducted at the time of the sighting, this is really monumental >intellectual bad faith. We all know that such investigations >didn't happen. That's one of the big problems UFO research >faces, whether you think UFO reports show something anomalous, >or even if you're a skeptic about that. (Because, after all, if >the investigation isn't good enough to prove that something >truly anomalous occurred, then how can it be good enough to >prove that something anomalous _didn't_ happen? Notice, Peter, >that I said "prove," so kindly don't wave the Occam's Razor flag >at this point.) >The question, Peter, would therefore be whether the data, as >tentatively (and sometimes, after all, not so tentatively) >established by whatever investigation might have taken place, is >enough to make a reasonable person feel that the fuller >investigation you ask for _ought_ to take place. Of past cases, >if possible, but especially of cases unfolding right now. It's a >delightful game - very self-empowering - to sit home and, like a >kid sorting his baseball card collection, put cases in one >category or another. But when one of those categories is "we >don't know enough about this," and all potentially revelatory >cases go in that category, and when one is satisfied with one's >work after putting them there, then, I submit, we haven't >actually learned anything about UFOs. But we have learned a lot >about the kid with the baseball cards, whose real position, >stripped of all the smirking evasions, would seem to be, "I >don't know spit about what these cases might show, and I'm >perfectly happy that way." Excuse me, Martin Shough asked why we didn't comment on a set of cases provided by Sparks, who produced no details. I am not going to get into this 'hey Mr Skeptic explain this' sort of game. Time and again I have conceded that a good number UFO reports, along with lots of other paranormal and fortean stories, are very puzzling if they occured exactly as reported in the literature. Of course, I always add that that is a very big _if_ indeed. You are clearly narked because I refuse to accept your apparent thesis that puzzling UFO reports must be assumed to have an exotic origin unless someone can prove otherwise. Instead of fretting about the likes of Rimmer and me, you should be wondering why, in all these decades, ufologists have failed to interest any substantial section of the scientific community in their collections of puzzling stories. Could this be because ufolgists don't just want scientists and others who could make a useful contribution to have an unbiased look at the evidence, but rather to endorse the ufologists own beliefs If they fail to do this they will get denounced as pelicanists, white suited godlings, narrow minded bigots and the like. If they say something mildly approving then ufologists will go around trumpeting that the great Dr X has approved of all their pet ideas.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 20 The Lockheed UFO Case [was: Theory and Pragmatism] From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 21:40:23 -0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 09:09:32 -0500 Subject: The Lockheed UFO Case [was: Theory and Pragmatism] >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:27:53 +0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:46:47 -0000 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 20:52:13 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:55:13 -0600 >>>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism <snip> >>>>They just won't give up, will they? >>>Not when there's still people like you around, Jerry, who just >>>ignore the facts if they don't fit your theories. After all, any >>>mystery is better than an explanation. >>Hi John >>Speaking of ignoring facts, what about the rather challenging >>cases that Brad brought up near the beginning of this thread and >>which _nobody_ on this list seems to want to go near? Any >>thoughts on the triangulated sightings by a/c designer Clarence >>Johnson and a planeload of Lockheed test pilots and >>aerodynamicists? There's something there for everybody - if you >>don't fancy a physical science approach you could try the theory >>that they were all saucer-happy, influenced by the Lockheed >>"contactee" tendency. Or are you content to go along with Blue >>Book's "lenticular cloud"? >Brad Sparks simply tosses out these lists of cases without >providing any bibliographical references or details, so how >could anybody comment meaningfully on them. Unless these cases >were the subject of a detailed, multidisciplinary critical >investigation at the time, they are likely to forever remain in >the _insufficient evidence_ or at best _very puzzling if occured >exactly as reported in the literature_ category. "No references or details"? "As reported in the literature"? I think Brad Sparks' answer to you would be to point out that the original materials on this case have been publicly available in the Blue Book record for 30 years. I suspect that it would be a tremendous relief to you to look into this material and discover that you were really able to support that flagrant guesswork- diagnosis of "insufficient evidence". As it happens, I didn't know much about this case either until recently, but I made a point of finding out so as to be able to comment meaningfully. Your rather different choice of response strikes me as merely uncooperative, like the know-nothing "who cares" of a surly teenager. Below, FYI, is my own _preliminary_ analysis of this case. If your psychic guesstimate of the status of this case should happen to be correct, of course, then the only meaningful response you'll be able to make to this will be silence. But I promise not to convict you of inconsistency if you can think of anything worth saying. ----- The Lockheed Case, 16 Dec 1953 Martin Shough This analysis is based mainly on a summary by Brad Sparks from his catalogue of Blue Book Unknowns (though this is an added case; the original BB evaluation was "lenticular cloud") and Joel Carpenter's account at: http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/lockufoinc.htm which appears to reproduce the essential part of Johnson's original report and summarises those of independent witnesses. (Unfortunately a link from the NICAP page to the full 15-page Blue Book case file is no longer active, and the on-line Blue Book archive is not yet updated to 1953.) Clarence Johnson says the object viewed by he and his wife from near Agoura Hills was stationary and then climbed away from them at speed. He says he could infer this speedy recession from the rate of diminution of angular size, but nowhere (as far as I can discover) does he say unambiguously that he detected any transverse angular rate, either in azimuth or elevation. Brad Sparks has pointed out to me that Johnson's first mention of the object's position is "above a mountain in the west", whereas at the end of his report he gives a bearing "about 255 degrees" or about 15 degrees away from true west. I agree it is possible to interpret this as meaning that the object appeared initially stationary at 270 degs and then climbed away with a component of motion towards the south on departure. But there are problems with this in my opinion. Firstly, this implied trajectory somewhat to the south of due west is in the _wrong_direction_ to explain the fact that the simultaneous observers near Long Beach (south of Agoura) observed their object vanish on a line of sight away from them at 285 degress, or somewhat to the _north_ of due west (see below). For consistency, if these are triangulated sightings of the same object, Johnson should have described the object climbing away to his right, not to his left. Secondly Johnson says that it "disappeared in a long shallow climb on the bearing noted", this description coming after he has mentioned seeing the object "in the west" but before he has given us the "about 255 degrees". Arguably, the "bearing noted" here is the bearing _previously_ noted - i.e."in the west" - in which case he is not saying that the object moved laterally between first sighting and disappearance. It seems possible that Johnson is first giving us an approximate position ("west") to set the scene of his narrative, then refining the estimate of this bearing ("255 degrees") at the end. This would be consistent with Johnson's use of the crucial phrase "a long shallow climb on _the_ bearing [emphasis added]", indicating that the whole of the apparent motion took place on _one_ bearing, with no change in azimuth, i.e. directly away from him. Indeed of the two possible interpretations this is the one that minimises (to about 30 degrees) the possible inconsistency between the directions of recession reported from the two sighting locations. A "long shallow climb" directly away from Johnson does not guarantee any displacement in elevation either. An object in the sky above the horizon is obviously at some positive elevation to start with and sits on a rising line of sight. In fact Brad Sparks points out that there were mountains to the west of Johnson's position which would put his visual horizon at about 2 degrees, and an object in the sky "above a mountain in the west" must be somewhat higher than this (Sparks assumes ~5 degrees). If recession is being inferred from dwindling of angular size (as stated by Johnson) then "a long shallow climb" is consistent with a line-of-sight recession and a zero angular rate in elevation. I also don't find evidence that the WV-2 crew observed any angular displacement. The object appeared to remain stationary in the sky. They turned and flew towards it "for some time" without appearing to close range until Wimmer observed that it "seemed to be disappearing" and it dwindled "directly away from them", according to Joel Carpenter's account. In other words, both groups of observers appear to have seen a stationary dark shape in the sky over the post-sunset horizon, which didn't move laterally or vertically but vanished in place by dwindling away. Taken individually, and on the face of it, either of these observations could suggest a mirage image of some kind. Taken together, mirage images of the character described, seen simultaneously from remote locations (about 50 miles apart), do not add up to a problem-free hypothesis (see below); but the 30 degrees between lines of sight is a problem for the flying object hypothesis as well, if both parties did see the object apparently recede in line of sight. An airborne object receding directly away from observers at Agoura would have a southward component of motion for observers off Long Beach, and vice versa. It would have to exhibit a non-zero azimuth rate for one group or the other. Perhaps the actual course of the object's recession bisected the angle between the two sighting lines, and/or there was an azimuth rate which one or both of the observing parties failed to notice. Johnson was on terra firma with local landmarks and fixed his bearing by reference to a certain mountain and the estimated position of Pt. Mugu (the US Navy weapons test centre) on the coast, but the WV-2 crew were themselves on a moving plane over the ocean. Although they report flying towards the object when it disappeared it may be that a slight deviation in their course happened to conceal a southwards lateral drift of the receeding object during the 10+ secs of its disappearance, and an absence of fixed seamarks may have helped to make a small lateral motion difficult to detect. On the other hand, giving full weight to the qualifications of all the observers in this case, we could accept the implication of their separate reports that the object kept a constant bearing from both sites and investigate the possibility that the apparent recession was in each case an illusory interpretation of the fact that the image's angular size dwindled rapidly. If these were mirage images then the very similar character and behaviour of the images suggests that the two sightlines triangulate the true location of a common image source tens of miles out over the Pacific. To support this theory we would need to: 1) postulate that both lines of sight passed through similar anomalous optical propagation conditions over the sea to shoreward of the apparent location, having therefore a similar optical history; and 2) find a common image source at the triangulated location. As regards point 1): In general terms it is not impossible that the raypaths to both sighting locations had a similar optical history if the responsible inversion layer is of wide horizontal extent, as is commonly the case. They often span tens or even hundreds of miles. But maintenance of the narrow mirage angle is generally critically dependent on variables such as the viewer's elevation relative to the inversion layer, and his state of motion, and rapid disappearance is typically caused by changes in viewing position destroying the critical geometry of the mirage raypath. In this case, however, there is a close correspondence in the time and the character of the dwindling disappearance as seen by observers in very different states of stasis and motion, at different distances, on different bearings, and from very different (~14,000 ft) altitudes. It seems highly unlikely that what would (ex hypothesi) have been a strong inversion gradient could collapse simultaneously (within a minute or two) over a wide area of tens of miles.Yet the recorded absolute time of the disappearance at both sites is very close (possibly identical), and not only that: As Brad Sparks points out the factor 8 difference in _duration_ of the disappearance observed at the two sites accurately matches, both in magnitude and in direction, a factor 8 difference in visual acuity which would be introduced due to Johnson's use of 8x binoculars. In terms of a real object receeding from both observers this is an entirely natural relation; in terms of two very different mirage geometries, it is an unnatural relation and a remarkable coincidence. Turning to point 2): It is interesting that the cited bearings of 255 degs from Agoura Hills and 285 degs from a position SW of Long Beach would intersect over or close to Santa Cruz Island, one of the Channel Islands group, a mountainous island (up to ~2400 ft) 24 miles long (EW) by about 6 miles max. wide (NS), some 60 miles from Agoura and about 80 miles from the approximate area of the WV-2 off Long Beach. This is a coincidence that bears investigating. The island of Santa Cruz would be well beyond the normal visual horizon for a person at sea level. The top of the island's highest mountains at around 2400 feet would _just_ clear the horizon in normal propagation conditions for an observer at sea- level about 60 miles away, but extinction due to horizon haze and sky brightness would mean that this tiny sliver of distant mountain would normally be invisible on the mainland. However Johnson was presumably some height above sea level in Agoura Hills, and propagation conditions might have been far from normal. So we might wonder if this improved his chance of seeing a superior mirage of a portion of the island summits normally lying on or just below the horizon. The coast-to-coast width of the whole island projected at Agoura would be in the region of 7 degrees or so, assuming a direct line of sight, whereas the object as reported appears to have been between 0.1 and 0.05 deg in width. This is consistent with only the silhouetted peak of the island's central high terrain clearing the (super-refractive) optical horizon at Agoura and being projected into the sky as a "looming" mirage. Looming mirage images are typically reported as appearing to float detached and often inverted (crossing of raypaths due to the vertical gradient of refractivity) above the horizon. This seems a promising theory at first sight, but immediately runs into the difficulty that the sea horizon west of Agoura Hills would be obscured by coastal mountains. A detailed survey from the exact site would be desirable and I can't find a detailed topographical map of the area, but according to Brad Sparks the elevation of these summits is about 2 degrees from Johnson's location near Agoura, and Johnson himself says that he saw the object "above a mountain". Obviously Johnson could not see the sea horizon in this direction. Say the UFO was only 1 degree over the mountain so that the elevation of the image was only ~3 degrees, the implied displacement of the image of Santa Cruz would be several times the maximum superior mirage angle (~1.0 degree) due the largest optical refractive index gradients normally expected in the free atmosphere (Viezee, William, Optical Mirage, in: Condon 1968). Exceptional conditions will sometimes occur. But it would also appear to be necessary in this case that the mirage was due to an elevated inversion, an optical duct above the level of the mainland mountains (which were evidently outwith the duct and unaffected by mirage distortion), and the largest gradients do not normally occur in elevated inversions over mountainous coastal terrain, but in the first few meters of a stable atmosphere over low land or sea. So there is some a priori unlikelihood. The viewing geometry for the aircrew off Long Beach is very different. In this case, because the observers were at 14,000 ft, Santa Cruz island would have been well in front of, not beyond, the horizon. The coast-to-coast angular width of the island subtended at Long Beach is similar to the ~7 degrees subtended at Agoura (the profile of the island becomes a little broader for the more southerly location, but it happens to be proportionately further away so the intercepted angle would not be much different). But the normal visual horizon from the WV-2 at 14,000 ft would be about 145 miles, or almost twice the true distance of about 80 miles to Santa Cruz island (the tops of the mountains would just clear the visual horizon - geometrically speaking - from as far away as 200 miles). So the whole width of the island would be visible from the plane. Also the normal line of sight from the plane to a point on the sea 80 miles away would be slightly _below_ (in front of) the horizon at a depression angle of a couple of degrees below the 14,000 ft flight level. The UFO reportedly appeared to be at or above the level of the aircraft, which is qualitatively consistent with the aircraft flying within a mirage-forming layer and a superior mirage image of the whole island (probably distorted, i.e. compressed, in a vertical direction) appearing a couple of degrees _above_ the horizon. However this geometry again exceeds the critical angle for total reflection, usually considered to be <0.5 degrees, this time by about a factor 4. Also, a mirage image of the whole of Santa Cruz island would be a very large visual object, at least about 15x the angular width of the full moon. I don't find any angular size estimate in the case details available, but it is hard to imagine several highly experienced pilots and aeronautical experts seeing such a prominent mirage of a very familiar island without recognising it for what it was, especially given that it would of course appear immediately above the "real" island. So large an image would also be grossly inconsistent by a factor 170 with the rather small ~2.5 arcmin object simultaneously observed from Agoura, 20 miles _nearer_ the triangulated location, and a simple comparison of reports (which all parties did afterwards) would have strongly counterindicated the conclusion drawn collectively - and reported reluctantly - that they had observed a real flying object. If we could argue that the airborne observers (like the ground observers at Agoura) saw only the island mountain summits at around 2400 ft, not whole island, then we would find that the depression angle narrows to about 1.1 degrees, somewhat more acceptable for mirage, and the angular size inconsistency might also disappear. However for these observers at altitude in the WV-2 there is no intervening horizon that might select only the mountain tops. And even if such a looming image of part of an island in front of the observers' horizon were somehow detached (compressed and possibly inverted) due to an abnormal ray path, it can be questioned why the hugely larger and unaffected portion of the island image would not be visible simultaneously by the normal path. I can find no evidence that the object was described as hovering directly over Santa Cruz island, as it "should" have been if it was a superior mirage, though this could be investigated from the original reports. The airborne observers' judgement was that it was the size of a very large aircraft at "considerable" but unspecified distance and a little above their own flight level of 14,000 ft. At a distance of 80 miles (arguably "considerable" in the context) this altitude would put the object only about 3 degrees above the sea. Obviously this is only one possible solution of an equation in several unknowns, but it illustrates at least the order of magnitude. If the object was over Santa Cruz island then it and the island would have been very closely associated together in a visual field containing an empty expanse of sea and sky. If the island was visible at all one would certainly expect it to have been cited as a prominent reference, if not rapidly identified by the observers as the source of a mirage. If it is the case that Santa Cruz island is not given as a reference position, perhaps this is because its dark shape was rendered invisible against a dark sea? But this seems unlikely as the sun had only just gone below the horizon and the sky would still have been very bright. It might be possible to argue that the bulk of the island was cloaked in low cloud and/or horizon haze so that only a mountain range protruded, and that this was merged into its inverted mirage counterpart in the manner of a Fata Morgana, appearing like a detached lenticular object. Again, it is hard to imagine that none of these very experienced test pilots and aeronautical people would look for many minutes at a UFO appearing in the direction of a large island in their own "backyard" (no doubt a familiar navigation mark for the many flight tests conducted out of Pt. Mugu and elsewhere) without wondering where the island had vanished to and, rather quickly, connecting the two anomalies. Johnson was conscious of a risk to his hard-earned reputation by writing up a UFO report for General Putt (doing so "most reluctantly" according to Putt) and even if the aircrew didn't think of this in the heat of the moment, surely when they and Johnson compared notes afterwards and reconstructed their lines of sight it would have occurred to someone to say "Hang on, shouldn't this thing have been over the island?" In the absence of detailed weather reports for both winds and temperatures aloft, all we can say is that inversion conditions conducive to superior mirage are not uncommon off parts of the California coast, sometimes associated with warm air over land being advected out over cooler air near the ocean surface (the cool California current runs down the coast) and resulting in a temperature gradient increasing with altitude. It might be suspected that inversion layers of large horizontal extent would tend to favour hot summer days rather than the middle of December, even in California; but in general there is only a very small seasonal difference in the frequency of inversions on the coast of California, and in fact the frequency is a few percent higher during the winter months (Viezee, William, op. cit.). In terms of the Santa Cruz mirage theory, the angle of the image displacements in both cases would test theory limits, and the least unlikely source of such theory-testing displacements would always be an extremely bright concentrated light source, not a landscape sillhouette at dusk. As the viewing angle widens away from the critical mirage angle the amount of light transmissible by the refracted raypath drops catastrophically. So although individual instances of any effect can be observed far from the mean, the individual improbability rises rapidly, and the compound improbability rises even more rapidly because the circumstances of each case test the theory limits in different ways. How likely is it that closely similar extreme effects would be observed at the same time by observers with different locations, different velocities and different viewing angles? It could be significant that Johnson's object appeared "above a mountain". Could it have been a detached looming mirage of this nearby mountain peak? BUT 2 DIFFERENT MIRAGES then, one of the island seen from the WV-2 over the sea, the other of a mainland mountain peak west of Agoura seen by Johnson? How likely is it that bearings, times, durations, behaviour and appearance would all interlock as they do, given different image sources and totally different ray paths through different regions of atmosphere? What about BB's lenticular cloud then? Such clouds form in the lea of mountains and can sometimes have distinct and stable lens shapes. Winds force moist air to rise over the summit into a standing wave system where it cools and cloud condenses. Because the droplets are continually condensing at the front of the wave and evaporating at the back, the cloud can maintain average position for some time independently of the wind-driven motions of other clouds - as was observed by Johnson, in fact, who at one point tried to explain it to himself as a lenticular cloud (but rejected the idea). In the present case, in order to explain both sighting lines a cloud has to be somewhere near Santa Cruz island, and a "mountain wave cloud" of a similar kind could plume downwind of the island mountains. But the first problem is that we are to assume a well-defined and isolated cloud no more than about 250 feet across, whereas these clouds are usually large and occur in stacks or clusters. Secondly, could such a lenticular cloud over Santa Cruz be seen by the Johnsons from Agoura Hills at all without importing mirage effects as well? If the visual horizon at Agoura due to the local mountains is 2 degrees, and if the object seen "above a mountain" there is only 1 degree higher, then we have 3 degrees over the local geometrical horizon. Taking account the curvature of the earth, this means that at the distance of Santa Cruz the cloud would have to be at a minimum altitude of about 18,000 ft. This seems far too high for a lenticular cloud formed in a standing wave caused by the airflow over the low (<2400 ft) island mountains. Perhaps there was a low-level lenticular cloud over Santa Cruz, seen in direct line of sight by the WV-2 observers, which was simultaneously seen by a looming mirage raypath at Agoura Hills? No, because the airborne observers saw the object at a slight positive elevation, somewhat above their own flight level of 14,000 ft. This is consistent with the altitude implied by a non-refracted sighting line from Agoura, but not with a lenticular cloud caused by the Santa Cruz mountains. We can only retain the benefits of the lenticular cloud theory - stability of compact form and position - if we assume two different lenticular clouds, one seen over Santa Cruz Island from the air, another seen over the mainland mountains from Agoura Hills. Johnson did say that he saw his object "above a mountain" and at one point considered that it might be lenticular cloud. But that two such very unusual clouds would chance to occur many miles apart and be spotted simultaneously by remote observers is already very improbable. The simultaneous rapid dissipation of these clouds in two quite different atmosphere regimes (inland mountains and ocean island) is surely smaller still, and the compound probability of the whole scenario must be close to zero for all practical purposes. So we are left with one isolated, small elliptical "cloud", about 250 ft across, at about 18,000 ft, apparently not associated with a mountain lea wave and yet stable and well- defined, simultaneously attracting the attention of expert observers 50 miles apart who interpreted it as a solid aeroform, so black and distinct as to be noteably different from other clouds in the sky, showing no change of shape or position for about 5 minutes despite the west winds observed to be blowing the other clouds, and which quite suddenly begins progressively shrinking, disappearing to the naked eye in 10 secs (as seen from the aircraft) whilst an observer with 8x binoculars continues to monitor the progressive contraction of a tiny core for a further 80 seconds until the intercepted arc becomes too small even for the binoculars. Surely even a highly dynamic lenticular cloud forming in a mountain wave never behaved like this, and a patch of high cloud in the free atmosphere would spread and dissipate, not contract rapidly in this way. As for evidence which speaks to the reliability of the witness descriptions, we have in addition to the probity of expert witnesses Johnson's own escalation of hypotheses through "cloud" to "lenticular cloud" to "unknown" and his reluctance to be associated with a UFO as attested personally by general Putt and by Johnson's actions in seeking a discreet reporting route. Other miscellaneous possibilities: smoke cloud? vapour trail? aircraft flying away? experimental Navy drone from Pt. Mugu? deflating blimp!? nothing very attractive here, but a study of the full Blue Book file when Dec 1953 comes on-line might conceivably produce a new clue. In the meantime, the evidence favours some discrete unknown object or phenomenon in the air at the location triangulated, with the rider that there are features possibly suggestive of an unknown optical propagation effect. It isn't clear that these are necessarily mutually exclusive. There are some similiarities with other cases : the Centaurus 1954 case, Capt. Smith July 47 etc., where unidentified black silhouttes observed against the sunset sky do
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 20 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Reason From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 21:50:13 -0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 09:13:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Reason >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 22:28:12 +0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism <snip> >I have read this post, and quite frankly I can see nothing in it >worth responding to, as it is merely Sandow's personal >observation, but as you are as determined to waste my time as I > am to waste yours, here goes: >GS - Often enough in the past I've noted how believers in the >psychosocial hypothesis ignore standard social science >methodology. All, of course, while claiming to be rational and >scientific. <snip> >GS - Then they make assumptions about how ideas and images spread, >and how they influence people. Assumptions, that, once again, >might have no basis in standard social science theory. It might have helped if Mr Sandow had explained what he meant by "standard social science theory" and "standard social science methodology". Is "standard social science theory" some sort of comprehensive theory which unifies the whole of the social sciences? If so then there is no such theory, that I know of. Even within individual social sciences, theories are applicable only within very limited domains. To the extent there is any sort of standard theory in psychology, for example, it would probably be cognitivism, and this is really a paradigm rather than a theory. Cognitivism is the assumption (it really never was more than that) that the human brain works along the lines of the theories developed within artificial intelligence in the 1960s. Since these theories are now largely discredited, cognitivism itself is pretty much discredited everywhere except in psychology - and while in psychology it's still very much the majority position, it's increasingly in retreat even there. It probably is fair to say there is such a thing as "standard social science methodology", but this is usually taken to mean quantitative methodology, and to call this "standard" completely ignores qualitative approaches such as participant observation and ethnomethodology. While it's true that qualitative approaches are very much open to abuse, when used properly they are immensely valuable - Rosenhan's pseudo-patient study, for example, could not have been done by any sort of quantitative method. (This was the study in which researchers infiltrated psychiatric hospitals, and showed that psychiatric diagnosis could often have just as much to do with context and clinical expectation, as with patient-behavior.) In any case, the fact something is standard doesn't mean it's automatically correct. What matters is whether the method in question is genuinely empirical, and is based on observation and hypothesis-testing rather than ideology and subjective interpretation. In psychology, the most empirically based areas of research have tended to lose their theoretical connection to psychology and either spin off into separate disciplines, such as ergonomics, or become incorporated into other existing subjects - research in perception, for example, now has almost no theoretical association with psychology at all and is much more closely allied to neuroscience, even if many perception- researchers continue to work in psychology departments. Within psychology itself, the harder, more empirically based research has tended to focus increasingly on solutions to specific, narrowly-drawn problems which do not require a lot of theoretical generalization - or indeed much theory at all, of any kind. This sort of applied psychology is more of a technology than a science, and the fact that it operates almost independently of any kind of psychological theory is a pretty good indication of just how useless most of that theory has turned out to be. I don't subscribe to Magonia (or indeed to any other Ufological publication) so I can't say whether it's pro- or anti-empiricist. But the contributions I've read on this List from Magonia's writers do indeed seem to indicate a strong anti-empiricist bias. To this extent, I think Jerry Clark is right on the nail when he describes Magonia's method as literary criticism rather than (social) science. But I also think antipathy toward empiricism is deeply entrenched within a sort of liberal-arts intelligentsia which has been taught to admire science without ever really understanding what it is or how it works. I come across far too many intelligent, educated people who seem to think that science can be approached with the same sort of rationalism that is used in the Humanities - one is reminded of C S Lewis's remark about people whose education is neither classical nor scientific, but
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 20 Re: Richard Hall Video Biography Project- Hall From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 15:46:22 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:45:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Richard Hall Video Biography Project- Hall >From: Trevor Page <webmaster.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 08:34:59 -0500 >Subject: Richard Hall Video Biography Project Underway >Dear Listers, >I wanted to announce that the Richard Hall video biography >project is underway! >Wendy Connors visited Richard and took some 5 hours of interview >footage which I have received and I'm currently digitally >editing into a finished product. >I have volunteered my abilities and equipment to make this >happen because I think Richard's history and experience are too >important to lose and should be kept for posterity and it's my >contribution to the UFO matter (aside from doing the website for >Brian Vike). Perhaps Wendy's work is going into a new >direction?! :) >I will tell you that the footage taken will give you lots of >insight into NICAP, the Colorado Project, Richard's views and >opinions on the whole subject matter and a whole lot more. >You're going to love it. >I expect the project to take two or three months to complete >depending on my other commitments at which time Richard will be >selling the finished DVD. >However, I am in need of some assistance. Since this project is >a group effort - some music will be provided by some familiars >on the UFO UpDates List - I would like to ask the List if they >could provide me with any high-quality pictures or scans of >NICAP board members, James MacDonald, the Condon Report book >cover or any other images of important UFO cases that cannot be >gleaned from the Internet for inclusion into the video. >Your contribution will be fully credited and will make the >finished product worthy of space in your video library. And I want to thank Wendy Connors who went the extra mile (more like 1,000 miles) to conduct the interviews with me; Trevor Page for his generous offer to edit and produce a finished product; and a dozen or so others who have either pledged help of one kind or another for the project or sent contributions to support it. Many thanks to all of you. Though my contributions to ufology are not yet finished and I have at least one more major project on the back burner, I would prefer that my oral history be issued while I am still of comparatively sound mind rather than in my dotage. When they come and haul me away mutteing incoherently about skeptibunkers, New Age loonies, schlockumentary program producers, cowardly sciientists, and other such meanderings, it will be too late for maintaining my credibility via quasi-coherent commentary.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 20 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 11:44:06 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:47:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Clark >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 19:02:23 +0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 15:51:53 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:27:53 +0000 >>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >Excuse me, Martin Shough asked why we didn't comment on a set of >cases provided by Sparks, who produced no details. I am not >going to get into this 'hey Mr Skeptic explain this' sort of >game. An excellent idea, Peter. We all know how badly that's worked out for you in the past. >Instead of fretting about the likes of Rimmer and me, you should >be wondering why, in all these decades, ufologists have failed >to interest any substantial section of the scientific community >in their collections of puzzling stories. Could this be because >ufolgists don't just want scientists and others who could make a >useful contribution to have an unbiased look at the evidence, >but rather to endorse the ufologists own beliefs >If they fail to >do this they will get denounced as pelicanists, white suited >godlings, narrow minded bigots and the like. If they say >something mildly approving then ufologists will go around >trumpeting that the great Dr X has approved of all their pet >ideas. As opposed, of course, to pelicanists - who as we know _never_ denounce UFO proponents with unflattering names and characterizations - on the debunking pronouncements of skeptical scientists. It's morally and intellectually reprehensible, in the pelicanist code, for ufologists to cite favorable assessments, entirely admirable and acceptable for Magonians to trumpet unfavorable ones. You just can't be a pelicanist without that kind of double standard and that sort of dizzying rhetorical incoherence. >Must go now as I have some baseball cards to sort.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 20 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:35:23 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:49:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Sandow >From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 19:02:23 +0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >You are clearly narked because I refuse to accept your >apparent thesis that puzzling UFO reports must be assumed to >have an exotic origin unless someone can prove otherwise. Amazing. Absolutely amazing. Never have I said or implied any such thing. A small lesson in logic: I rejected the thesis that puzzling UFO reports can be assumed to have a non-exotic origin, unless someone can prove otherwise. It certainly doesn't follow that I therefore think these reports must be assumed to be exotic. Or let me state this in the form of two syllogisms. Faulty reasoning (which Peter, without any evidence, imagines that I do): We can't assume that puzzling UFO reports have a non-exotic origin. This UFO report is puzzling. Therefore we can assume that it has an exotic origin. Correct reasoning: We can't assume that puzzling UFO reports have a non-exotic origin. This UFO report is puzzling. Therefore we can't assume that it has a non-exotic origin.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 20 Clancy's Word-List Experiment Replicated From: Will Bueche <willbueche.nul> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 11:52:24 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:53:53 -0500 Subject: Clancy's Word-List Experiment Replicated Susan Clancy's Word-List Experiment Replicated; Results Not Consistent I planned to read this message from Prof. Christopher French on Errol's Strange Days last night, if we discussed Susan Clancy's particular word-list experiment ("DRM task"). I did not in fact read it because we did not discuss Clancy's experiment in any detail, so I thought I should pass it on to the List for the record. I asked Prof. French if his recent study of experiencers had replicated Susan Clancy's word list experiment, and if his result had been the same. I asked for his permission to share his response: ----- "...our attempt to replicate the Clancy et al. findings with our experiencers (not all of whom were abductees in the strict sense) did not reveal any significant differences between our experiencers and our control group on the DRM task. "As you're probably aware, I think Susan's views are probably correct re. such experiences (I wrote a very favourable review of her book for New Scientist). Having said that, although our questionnaire measures produced data consistent with her general approach, the DRM results, as I said, did not." "Best wishes, Chris" (Christopher French) ----- Clancy places a great deal of weight on her word-list experiment
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 20 Re: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely - From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:03:59 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:58:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely - >From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 16:01:13 +0000 >Subject: Re: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:32:35 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely >>>UW biology professor Peter Ward and UW astronomy professor >>>Donald Brownlee believe discovering intelligent aliens on other >>>planets is unlikely. In Rare Earth, a book the two co-authored, >>>they say the conditions needed for complex life are so narrow >>>that microbial life may be common, but complicated life in the >>>universe is likely rare. >>How can one evaluate probability on the basis of data on one >>planet or one solar system? Throw dice? <snip> >Brownlee and Ward's book, looking only "toward the campfire" >can't see even what's likely in our little clearing, and totally >ignores what might be out in the forest. Hi Guys! Our beliefs that intelligent life must exist throughout our vast universe found its scientific basis in 1966 in another highly speculative book, 'Intelligent Life In The Universe' by Iosif Shklovskii and Carl Sagan. Many decades later the new science of exobiolgy is still searching for the proof of what it preaches as fact. Yes, ufology does provide much very compelling (and arguably the strongest) evidence we have that extraterrestrial intelligent life not only exists but that "they" have already visited us here on Earth. Unfortunately, ufology still does not have any actual crashed UFO wreckage or ET alien bodies to present as proof, only the same ancedotal evidence as exobiologists. For a moment, let's set aside our own biases and personal beliefs and deal only with the undisputed facts (not just very reasonable assumptions and scientific deductions). We know of only one place in their entire universe where intelligent life does exist. This place is our own planet Earth (first important fact). In 1969 Apollo 12 astronauts brought back the TV camera on Surveyor 3 that had landed on the Moon in 1967. Back on Earth researchers were surprised to find living streptococcus bacteria within this TV camera! This was not the only time that micro-organisms subjected to the vacuum, high levels of radiation and extreme temperatures of space for long periods of time survived (second important fact). Now if we ever do find ET life or direct evidence of ET life (such as the alleged micro-fossils found in meteorites or in the lunar soil samples brought back by Luna 16, etc.) and it is not unlike what was once or is still found here on our planet, we must conclude that this life originated here on Earth. Anything more than this would be wishing thinking and not based solely on scientific facts. Earlier this year a very noteworthy paper was published in the Journal of the British Interplanetary Society (JBIS) titled "Inflation-Theory Implications for Extraterrestrial Visitation" whose authors, physicists Bernard Haisch, James Deardorff, Bruce Maccabee and Harold Puthoff are well known to us in ufology. What was overlooked by many was another equally noteworthy on a very similar topic that was also published in JBIS at about the same time. According to the author of this paper, physicist Claudius Gros, a single advanced spacefaring civilization in our galaxy could colonize nearly the entire Milky Way, including our stellar neighbourhood, in as little as 1 million years (a period of time much less than the age of the Earth which is estimated to be about 5 billion years). The fact that we would have easily detected such ET civilizations in our immediate neighbourhood of space (ignoring, of course, what was written in the Bible and other ancient texts which Carl Sagan believed could be evidence of such direct contact with ETs in the past) suggests to me that we are indeed unique and alone in the galaxy. Since I am also stubborn in my beliefs, which many of you share, I propose that WE are Gros' advanced spacefaring civilization in the Milky Way and that we not only still inhabit the Earth but our pre-historic "astronauts" ancestors - micro-organisms blown off the surface during the long period of bombardment by comets and asteroids that have left many visible scars on our home planet - all travelling at speed of several miles per second - have already contaminated every planet in the galaxy! Whether any of these other planets in our galaxy that were seeded with life from Earth eventually evolved advanced civilizations of their own is a really big leap of faith which certain scientific facts would rule this out competely! Maybe the authors of 'Rare Earth' are right and life in the universe is very precious and scarcer than gold! If intelligent ET beings (or angels?) are ever discovered out there, they could only have
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 20 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Smith From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 18:16:09 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 21:01:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Smith >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:03:38 -0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:05:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>1) They happened a long time ago and since nothing became of >>them over the intervening years, you are almost guaranteed to >>have no further progress in them. So, an inertia sets in >>preventing further work via rationalization. >I agree it can be frustrating, but I think you are wrong to say >that all the information in old cases has been thoroughly >exhausted to no avail. I doubt if there is any single case of >which this could be wholly true. Of the historical cases that >I've been involved with studying in particular detail, the one >common feature is just how much latent information there is >lying around untapped. Cases where past research has been so >profound that we're all reduced to twiddling our thumbs are >rare. Generally we do twiddle anyway, but I certainly wouldn't >advocate it. Some cases are so clearly obviously backed up with data and have all the hallmarks of being "ET" related, yet nothing ever came up with them. Did they change the common belief system? Did they make "science" sit up and take notice? No. They were left to molder, even though alot of good work may have been done on them. Oh, I am sure more work might be possible on them, but really, isn't it too late? Is there some level of research that can be done to convince "science" that this is worthy of investigation (if that is UFOlogy's goal)? >>2) Who has the original facts/reports/data? Likely, they are >>lost and more rationalization can occur that without the >>original witnesses/data, nothing more can be done. >"Likely" is guesswork, and wrong in the case mentioned. This one >was new to me, too, recently, so I tried to find out. The >original reports are not lost. For starters, they are in a 15- >page Blue Book file (good "old" Blue Book eh? <g>), an >informative discussion of the case and its extensive background >by Joel Carpenter (NICAP site) and a brief but detailed entry in >Brad Sparks' Unknowns catalogue. The fact is that although there may be alot of data somewhere, is it the "right" data to make a difference in the whole UFO area. The original cases would seem to be enough to justify dramatic interest and a sway of public opinion, yet this does not affect the paradigm of science, even giving them interest to research the topic. >>Any cases that seem clearly ET related always seems to be >>ignored by "science", although some of these might still be >>"enjoyed" by the public. We can leave out the military because >>who knows what they really believe about anything. >>I mean, if cases like the Coyne-helicopter case of Oct 1973 >>where a cigar UFO made them increase altitude by 3000 ft >>instead of lose altitude (they were in a dive) with 4 crew >>witnesses are not taken seriously by "science" and the >>military then what is the use? >>So rather than hope these excellent (albeit dusty) cases can >>change anything, we need new fresh data similar to them, only >>with better "scientific" quality. >Well we all want to "know" things for different reasons, but for >those of us who are making judgements about second-hand evidence >(as opposed to those who have had overwhelmingly doubt-busting >personal experiences) the existing data is all we have by which >to justify any course of action to ourselves, never mind others. Yes, but the problem I see is that we must have certain levels of trust built into this kind of work. How can anyone know these reports are true unless you can somehow verify it independently? They may be the best sounding reports anyone could have come up with, but did they happen or is it all just a story? Even with multiple witnesses, photos, whatever, can't it all be fudged for some reason. This becomes kinda of paranoid, but it relates to our fundamental assumptions of reality. Most of the time, we assume most of what we read or hear (in news) has some level of reality because it is too tedious to actually verify the facts independently. However, the same holds true for UFO cases. I, for instance, can independently verify that a recent UFO case is a NOSS triad observation, thus proving to me that the witnesses were fairly good observers. Sadly, its also proven to not be a UFO. >If you already have these "excellent" cases that are "clearly ET >related" then I guess the important questions are already >answered for you and you don't need any deeper examination of >the evidence or your own instincts, motivations and convictions >about it. I still do. If you agree on the objective reality of these past UFO cases, then you don't have to do anymore work. If I had not seen these kind of cases, I would simply shrug off UFOs as bunk. They indicate that something (likely ET related) is happening. But the problem still remains that if I do not experience this level of evidence myself, I must remain in a very trusting mode, which my experience in this world seems to indicate is not wise. >If you want only to make a case to yourself for $10,000 seed >funding for an optical tracking network to satisfy what you >described (in another thread) as a purely personal quest, then >you've clearly already won the argument, so go and buy it. But >if you want to make a case to someone else, then all you can >adduce to buttress your argument is (by definition) existing >data. Either way, as a matter of conscience or of practical >persuasion, you are bound to do your best by the data there is. True. But even the cases with no further research should be enough to convince investors. Since the past cases have not seemed to generated investor interest, then I must assume some weird sociological phenomena is going on. One in which people don't want to take a chance with a "silly" sounding idea. >>Personally, no matter how many decimal points you put on >>readings, I doubt science _can_ accept these UFOs are real and >>alien. >I don't know where this comes from. I only mean that no matter how well we take readings with our UFO field research, a firm, unshakable bias exists in "science" that precludes its consideration of UFOs as a worthy topic of research. Science moves by degrees so it may take centuries for it to come to terms with UFOs that are alien related. >The prior questions of >interest to me are: What manner of thing did Clarence Johnson & >co see in December 1953? But you may come up with the answer, we do not have enough information to know. A dead end. At what point would _you_ be able to say such a case was clearly alien? >With what level of confidence can we >say that we understand it? Labelling such cases as clearly ET- >related cases of alien UFOs, period, indicates to me someone who >has stopped thinking about these cases, All they really serve at this date is _inspiration_ to those who try/wish to believe in UFO as an ET phenomenon. If you can glean more data from them, fine. But when are you "done"? >just as have those >hardened disbelievers who can't see any mileage in challenging
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 20 Why UFO Cases Are Going To Win From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:38:23 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 21:04:40 -0500 Subject: Why UFO Cases Are Going To Win Hello List, Two emerging Blogs written by the same Author (Douglas Kern is a writer and lawyer in Columbus, Ohio.) In his article entitled "Internet Killed the Alien Star, it has come to my attention, the most single reason why UFO sightings have been spirling down is the apparently due to the rise of the Internet in the late nineties. "What the Internet gave, the Internet took away". So in search of further proof of these statements I researched other articles written by same author, when by golly I stumbled upon the second article found below entitled "Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win" This article also describe the rise of the Internet in the late nineties which corresponded to the rise of Inteligent Design, at least that's how I interpreted it. Thus we now have where the intersection meets namely, "The rise of the Internet in the late nineties resulting with the fall of many now famous Darwinian cases. What I later found to be interesting, is that by superimposing the subject matter of the top article by combining both articles together you get a whole new article, so in order to gain a little perspective about the bigger picture, here's what you do: In the article entitled "Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win" whenever you see the word "ID" substitute "UFO cases". It sure cleared up a big mess in my head, I hope it does the same for you. ----- http://www.techcentralstation.com/110905A.html Internet Killed the Alien Star By Douglas Kern Published 11/09/2005 Thus, the rise of the Internet in the late nineties corresponded with the fall of many famous UFO cases. Roswell? A crashed, top- secret weather balloon, misrepresented by dreamers and con men. The Mantell Incident? A pilot misidentified a balloon, with tragic consequences. Majestic-12? Phony documents with a demonstrably false signature. The Alien Autopsy movie? Please. As access to critical evidence and verifiable facts increased, the validity of prominent UFO cases melted away. Far-fetched theories and faulty evidence collapsed under the weight of their provable absurdity. What the Internet gave, the Internet took away. The Internet processes all truth and falsehood in just this fashion. Wild rumors and dubious pieces of evidence are quick to circulate, but quickly debunked. The Internet gives liars and rumor mongers a colossal space in which to bamboozle dolts of every stripe -- but it also provides a forum for wise men from all across the world to speak the truth. Over the long run, the truth tends to win. This fact is lost on critics of the blogosphere, who can only see the exaggerated claims and gossip. These critics often fail to notice that, on the 'net, the truth follows closely behind the lies. A great many of us accept Internet rumors and hoaxes in exchange for fast access to the truth. --- http://www.techcentralstation.com/100705C.html Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win By Douglas Kern Published 10/07/2005 4) ID will win because it can piggyback on the growth of information theory, which will attract the best minds in the world over the next fifty years. ID is a proposition about information. It contends that the processes of life are so specific and carefully ordered that they must reflect deliberate action. Put simply: a complex message implies an even more complex sender. Separating ordered but random data from relevant, purposeful data -- that is, separating noise from messages -- is one of the key undertakings of the 21st century. In nearly every field, from statistics to quantum physics to cryptology to computer science, the smartest people on the planet are struggling to understand and apply the unfathomable power of information that modern technology has bequeathed to them. We have only scratched the surface of the problem-solving power that the Internet and cheap computing power open to us. As superior intellects strive to understand the metaphysics of information, they will find the information- oriented arguments of ID increasingly sensible and appealing. ID will fit nicely into the emerging worldview of tomorrow's intellectual elite. This emerging worldview will take a more expansive view of science than does the current elite. Consider the "meme" meme. We all know what a meme is: a thought pattern that spreads from person to person and group to group like a viral infection spreading through a population. Yet memes cannot be bisected, or examined under a microscope, or "falsified" via the scientific method. Even so, we can make statements about memes with varying degrees of objective truthfulness. Is it possible to speak of a "science" of concepts? Right now, the scientific establishment says no. This unhelpful understanding of science will soon be discarded in favor of something more useful in the information age. ----- "UFO cases will fit nicely into the emerging worldview of tomorrow's
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 21 Abductees In The Jail House From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 03:30:34 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:23:49 -0500 Subject: Abductees In The Jail House The abductee situation is full of stories but one that I have had on the back burner for a long time is whether any abductees had been or are incarcerated in jails/prisons. Reason I bring this up is because I didn't ask the question but a story was told to me by pals who are corrections officers at the biggest prisons in the U.S. We were chatting about everyday events one night and when someone brought up the big triangle ships that just about everyone had seen in the area, one of the fellows just bowed his head and shook it and told me how he'd seen or heard of inmates who had been abducted right from the prison! Two other guys acknowledged this but it was funny that the abductors put them right back into their cells! When I go back home for a visit I'll ask the boys again as it's easier to do it face to face instead by phone or email. I figured abduction was abduction and the visitors didn't know the difference or felt a guy in stir was easier pickins. So I was wondering if anyone had read or researched abductees who were captured while incarcerated.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 21 Redfern Responds To BS In The Desert From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:09:19 +0000 (GMT) Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:27:29 -0500 Subject: Redfern Responds To BS In The Desert Nick Redfern has asked me to forward the following information to the List: ----- I no longer subscribe to UFO UpDates, but a friend emailed me today to say that there were apparently renewed posts on UFO UpDates re. my Body Snatchers book and that this focused on a couple of issues - one being that Kevin Randle had a review of my book at his Blog. It should be stressed that this review was in fact first published several months ago in FATE magazine and my 2-page reply to his review appeared in the same issue of FATE, too. Second, I was told that there were comments made on UpDates to the effect that the theory in my book first surfaced back in the 1990s. My book specifically addresses this fact and includes data on the similar data that surfaced many years before my book was published - such as the Popular Mechanics article from 1997, the data from Tim Cooper's nurse from 1990, etc. Third, I was told someone had commented on the fact that Bob Durant had written an article on the book for the latest issue of the International UFO Reporter. My extensive reply to the Durant article appears in the next IUR. By the way, I am working on an article that deals with Lincoln La Paz's proven links with the Fugo Balloon saga of WW2. The research for this has uncovered some very illuminating data re.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 21 Who's right Hoyle Dicke Anthropics Or I.D.-ers? From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:24:47 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:32:13 -0500 Subject: Who's right Hoyle Dicke Anthropics Or I.D.-ers? Science looked gloomily on the Universe, saying 1) it's going to collapse in a Big Crunch (& kept twisting data to fit that), 2) and even if it didn't collapse then it's doomed to die the "Heat Death" of lonely, cold stars finally winking out. Well, #1) has been disproved, the Universe is expanding too fast to collapse - ever. But #2) has still got everyone confused, pragmatists, anthropic fans and I.D. enthusiasts alike. Reason - Robert Dicke (quite reasonably) said `if we're looking at it, it's got to be old enough to have made the atoms of which organic beings are built' which was later taken (by some) to be the first "weak anthropic" argument. Subsequent stronger "anthropics" went all the way to '... therefore it was designed just for us humans', which you might agree is _not_ a necessarily logical conclusion (Hoyle seemed to be about half-way to that position). Dicke's time estimate for human existence was "not before ten billion years" - but didn't allow us much after that. He said that stars can make heavy atoms like carbon, oxygen, nitrogen & phosphorus about ten billion years from day zero - but he also thought that significantly later (say another five or ten billion years?) the stars will have exhausted their fuel, no further heavy atoms will be made, stars go out and so do we! Now things have changed :- First, it seems that "life" is more or less inevitable in our Universe; large groups of "bits" will always self-organize, first to dynamic patterns (sand-pile experiments), then to chemical patterns (deep-space clouds of organic molecules coincidentally forming the amino acids needed for all Earthlife), then to "life" and perhaps finally to "intelligence" (according to some science definitions we aren't intelligent yet, because we can't assure our own survival - a defining quality, apparently). [Incidentally, after "Chaos Theory' finally calmed down, comes some sort of excuse for sad human history - apparently _all_ self-organizing systems choose to develop (are forced to an `attractor') just this side of chaos. Might explain a lot.] Second, although downplayed att. (probably from ignorance), "jets" are forcing themselves on our attention. [Check: jets.html m87 jet or just m87 jet in Google Images for one that'll scare the hell out of any sensible observer, wherever he's standing.] Jets are pure plasma shooting out - from the N & S poles of neutron stars and even whole galactic cores - at relativistic speeds and for hundreds, maybe thousands of light-years. So? - So they redistribute matter at its most basic, to be re-used in star formation. [and I'm out on a limb flatly stating they're the _cause_ of spiral galaxies.] Which means Dicke's pessimistic "end-date" for humans doesn't apply (and never did). And one of the biggest `co-incidences' backing up the I.D. arguments has just evaporated. But all that might also mean the "Big Bang" is a bit further back than science says (and that Halton Arp might've had a point about red-shifts). Also, if you think about it, that a lot of other life-forms should be around, and that - toward galactic centers - they would've started a bit earlier than us (say a few millions, or billions of years or so?). Cheers Ray D [Most items above _could_ maybe be gleaned from "Collapse of Chaos" by Profs Stewart and Cohen, and "Deep Simplicity" by John Gribbin - but whether they would agree I'm not sure.]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 21 Re: Richard Hall Video Biography Project - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 05:00:28 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:33:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Richard Hall Video Biography Project - Lehmberg >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 15:46:22 +0000 >Subject: Re: Richard Hall Video Biography Project >>From: Trevor Page <webmaster.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 08:34:59 -0500 >>Subject: Richard Hall Video Biography Project Underway <snip> >- Richard Hall >P.S. Geez, I'm beginning to sound like Alfred Lehmberg! Which may not be an _entirely_ bad thing, given I have it on the very best authority that Mr. Hall considers me a fellow truth-seeker...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 21 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:56:02 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:56:02 -0500 Subject: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother Source: The Wichita Eagle - Wichita, Kansas, USA http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/nation/13214050.htm Sun, Nov. 20, 2005 Psychologist: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother By Richard Morin Washington Post Accounts of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens have one eerie similarity. When serious researchers like psychologist Frederick Malmstrom have asked self-proclaimed abductees what their out-of-this- world kidnappers looked like, they inevitably describe beings with large heads, big eyes, gray skin, smooth features, a barely visible or absent mouth and smallish bodies. Malmstrom, a visiting scholar at the U.S. Air Force Academy, now thinks he recognizes that face. It's Mommy -- or at least the image of a "prototypical female face" that's hard-wired into a baby's brain and helps newborns instantly respond to their mothers. Scientists have known for years that animals are born with certain visual recognition "templates" that help them survive. In one famous study, a scientist found that newly hatched chickens automatically cowered from shadows in the shape of a predator (such as a hawk) while the shadow of a nonpredator -- a goose -- elicited no such fearful response. There's similar evidence that human babies are programmed to react to a generalized face. Studies show that up until 2 months of age, an infant will react favorably to anything resembling a human face -- even a Halloween mask. In fact, when Malmstrom optically altered a photo of a woman in a way consistent with the characteristics of a newborn's vision -- astigmatism, an extremely shallow focal plane -- the resulting face looked remarkably like those big-eyed aliens drawn by self-declared abductees, he reports in the latest issue of the magazine Skeptic, which features scholarly articles on the paranormal and other extraordinary claims. Why do adults who claim to be abducted "see" their mothers, or at least this prototypical female face, and not some other important figure? Malmstrom says the answer has to do with another familiar
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 21 Intelligence By And For The People From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:03:43 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:03:43 -0500 Subject: Intelligence By And For The People Source: The American Chronicle - Beverly Hills, California, USA http://tinyurl.com/cwyox November 18, 2005 Intelligence By And For The People: Grassroots HUMINT, OSINT, PSYOP By Steve Hammons More people are now realizing that intelligence information is very important. It can save lives and keep the peace. Or, it can lead to war, death and destruction. It can be gathered and used honestly and with honor. Or, it can be an excuse for evil, and then twisted to be used as deception. Intelligence, like psychological operations (PSYOP), can be used to achieve success in positive endeavors, not just the dark manipulations we often associate with these terms. The word intelligence, as we know, can mean intelligence information as well as a person=92s intelligence. It can also refer to the intelligence of a course of action and have other similar kinds of meanings. These definitions are all useful to consider when thinking about intelligence. In any given situation, in our daily lives or in Washington, D.C., we might ask, was intelligence information accurate? Then, did intelligent people receive it? Was it used in an intelligent way and were intelligent courses of action carried out based on it? Although these questions are now on our minds regarding the 9/11 attacks and the Iraq war, they also apply to many situations for all of our day-to-day experiences and in our communities. Our military and intelligence services classify intelligence in many ways, based on the type of intelligence, how it is gathered and similar factors. Two of these are human intelligence (HUMINT) and open source intelligence (OSINT). These are areas that are receiving increased focus and funding and are considered to be valuable in the challenges we face now and in the future. HUMINT and OSINT have value not only for national security issues, but for all of us and in all types of efforts. Grassroots HUMINT can refer to the value we get from other people, friends, family and associates. OSINT can include the information we get from books, magazines, the Web, music, movies and other open sources. Valuable intelligence can be found from a very wide range of people, media and other sources. We can be not only receivers of HUMINT and OSINT, but providers and contributors. Those who make interpersonal, scientific, artistic, educational or other kinds of contributions are creators of HUMINT and OSINT. Some contributions can be quite valuable in many ways. The constructive outcomes of these efforts can be considered as a kind of PSYOP effect. In our personal lives as well as in national and international settings, these kinds of HUMINT and OSINT can be enriching and contribute to our growth and development. They can enhance understanding and communication. They can be used as positive PSYOP and public diplomacy that helps create and maintain peace and progress. I=92ll use my two novels as examples. When I started to write my first novel, =93Mission Into Light,=94 I wanted to include information and experiences I had been exposed to over the years. And I wanted to bring the information together in a way that made some sense, that gave readers useful intelligence. I began writing the book before 9/11, before the Iraq war and before the dangers facing Americans reached the levels we see today. Dangers from enemies foreign and domestic. That book was published in early 2001, and while finishing the sequel, =93Light=92s Hand,=94 the 9/11 attacks occurred. This changed the development of the second book, as it changed so much else in our lives. The 9/11 attacks initially focused our attention on terrorists, national security, our military and our leaders in Washington, D.C., And, correctly, our attention remains on these important subjects. At the same time, many people are also broadening the search for intelligence, and expanding the sources and methods of intelligence gathering. Not just our dedicated government and military intelligence officers =96 all of us. I, like many others, had been exposed to many kinds of experiences and information that seemed interesting. And, they sometimes seemed to be woven together in interesting ways. Unconventional topics seemed to often blend with more conventional subjects: The old post-World War Two Army Air Corps and the UFOs of the Roswell incident, recent Army Intelligence teams and ESP or =93remote viewing,=94 the Navy and the dolphins of the San Diego-based Marine Mammal Program, World War Two Navajo Code Talkers of the Marines and Japanese-Americans of the Army=92s Military Intelligence Service, the CIA and psychoactive mushrooms, quantum physics and concepts of God. Having been exposed to military special operations concepts at a relatively young age, I learned the value of being willing to tackle unconventional efforts in unconventional ways, using unconventional methods. So, these interesting and sometimes mysterious topics that our military and intelligence services had tackled seemed very worthy of research. Then, creating my own little piece of OSINT, HUMINT and PSYOP, I tried to create these two novels to try to gather useful intelligence, put it together in a platform that was clear and understandable and then disseminate it. =93Mission Into Light=94 and =93Light=92s Hand=94 were the results. The Joint Reconnaissance Study Group (JRSG) in the novels consists of ten women and men of a joint-service, secret quasi- scientific intelligence research group. Based in San Diego and under the command of an Air Force colonel, Tom O=92Brien, the nine other members are divided into three three-person teams. Team One includes Navy Commander Dan Wells, Navy Lieutenant Commander Jim Etienne and Air Force Captain Amy Mella. Team Two consists of Army Special Forces Colonel Ed Thompson, Special Forces Captain Bill MacNeil and a civilian, Mike Green. Team Three is a Marine Colonel Gene Voss, Air Force Major Karen Valdez and CIA officer Jennifer Thorsen. Their mission statement defines their objectives as follows: - - - The Joint Reconnaissance Study Group (JRSG) is a research entity designed to utilize the resources of the Department of Defense and national intelligence services in the missions to be defined by the Congress of the United States, Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the President of the United States. JRSG personnel will endeavor to investigate intelligence-related matters deemed relevant to the national security of the United States of America. Areas to be explored by JRSG will be regarded as TOP SECRET / SCI, using the compartmented code word BOONE. Need-to-know protocol will be in force. Study groups within JRSG will be compartmented to the degree necessary. Cross-fertilization of data and intelligence will be at the discretion of study group team members and the commanding officer of JRSG. Research and investigative findings will be compiled and interpreted by the senior officers on each team and submitted to the JRSG CO for communication to higher command authorities. Areas of Research: JRSG teams will conduct broad-based, yet narrowly focused research and investigations into areas as identified and directed by the JRSG CO. These areas will include, but will not be limited to, the following general categories: 1) Unidentified flying objects (UFOs). Alleged abductions of humans by same. Reported technology and method of operations. 2) Extra-sensory perception (ESP). Alleged perception of information available to human beings through means other than the five senses. 3) Near-death experience (NDE). Alleged contacts with Heavenly persons and afterlife-type phenomena reported by persons experiencing clinical death. 4) Research in sub-atomic and quantum physics and how these fields may affect or illuminate the above areas. 5) DNA and other genetics studies and how these fields may affect or illuminate the above areas. 6) Native American culture and history and how it may affect or illuminate the above areas. 7) Cross-theoretical/cross-cultural religious and philosophical studies and how they may affect or illuminate the above areas. Methods and Goals: JRSG personnel will conduct field interviews and other information and intelligence gathering tasks as directed by the JRSG CO. JRSG teams will pursue intelligence and reconnaissance based on their investigative discretion and initiative. Senior officers Commander Daniel Wells, Colonel Edward Thompson, and Colonel Gene Voss will report directly to the JRSG CO. JRSG CO Colonel Thomas O'Brien will report directly to the National Security Council, Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the President of the United States. JRSG teams will endeavor to conduct reconnaissance on the seven general areas of study and maintain security of the intelligence collected. The JRSG will be granted the full cooperation of all military commands and civilian governmental agencies. Reports will be channeled from JRSG field teams to the JRSG CO on an as needed basis at the discretion of senior team officers. - - - The two novels are really one continuous story, trying to put together valuable HUMINT and OSINT into an easy-to-read and fun adventure that provides an enjoyable grassroots PSYOP experience for readers. The women and men of the JRSG also conduct investigations into current and future human evolution, deep-memory DNA theories, Navy dolphin projects, past and future Earth geological disasters, crop circles and other areas of interest. Connections between these areas are discovered as well as links to the past and the future of Earth and the human race. They try to put together pieces of a strange cosmic puzzle. They conduct urgent operations to understand emerging intelligence affecting the United States, the human race and planet Earth. Along the way, they meet Joe Bear, a World War Two Marine veteran of the Navajo Code Talkers. Joe helps them discover that several JRSG members have Native American roots in their family trees from different tribes. Mike Green and Captain Bill MacNeil find out they both have Cherokee in their backgrounds. Captain Amy Mella has Lakota bloodlines. Lt. Commander Jim Etienne has Iroquois in his genes and Major Valdez has Native American ancestry from Mexico. Other characters emerge in the story such as Dr. Brenda Carruthers, an anthropology professor at New Mexico State University who previously worked on similar classified projects. Mike Green=92s uncle, Army Special Forces Colonel Jack Allen plays a key role in urgent developments. Friends and allies emerge as JRSG members travel from San Diego to the Arizona Sonoran Desert, Sedona and Flagstaff, Arizona, the =93Four Corners=94 area, Durango, Colorado, in the southern Rockies, New Mexico and Oahu, Hawaii. Enemies and opponents also surface as the group uncovers dangerous threats to their investigation, to the United States, Earth and human civilization. The JRSG team faces experiences that are scientific, physical, mental, emotional and spiritual. The characters follow paths of discovery and knowledge to find new understanding of their nation, the human species, and the hoped-for breakthrough that will change the world. Sudden, seemingly miraculous events surprise even the most open- minded and hopeful members of the group. Or maybe these events and processes are just natural. Maybe Nature, Earth and the Great Spirit are revealing phenomena the human race is finally ready to understand. This is also a story of relationships between women and men, military and civilian, the intelligence community and the average American. It is an exploration of phenomena and mysteries that now rightly hold the interest and attention of millions of people worldwide. So, useful HUMINT, OSINT and PSYOP can come in many forms, and can be created and used by all of us. Novels, music, teaching and coaching, research, military efforts, scientific inquiry can call become very useful platforms for intelligence. Keep your eyes and mind open for good grassroots intelligence. The human race needs all the intelligence we can get our hands on. Steve Hammons is author of two novels about a secret research team investigating unconventional phenomena, the "Joint Reconnaissance Study Group." Mission Into Light and the sequel Light's Hand introduce readers to the ten women and men of the "JRSG" and their interesting adventures. Hammons serves as a research analyst at the "open source intelligence (OSINT)" Web site IntelDesk.com Visit the home page of his novels at the link below: Author's web site: http://navyseals.com/community/members/Ohio52/ View author's other articles:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 21 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:52:25 -0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:07:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Shough >From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 18:16:09 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:03:38 -0000 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>>From: James Smith <zeus001002.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 15:05:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >>>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism <snip> >Some cases are so clearly obviously backed up with data and have >all the hallmarks of being "ET" related, yet nothing ever came >up with them. Did they change the common belief system? Did they >make "science" sit up and take notice? No. They were left to >molder, even though alot of good work may have been done on >them. Oh, I am sure more work might be possible on them, but >really, isn't it too late? Is there some level of research that >can be done to convince "science" that this is worthy of >investigation (if that is UFOlogy's goal)? No it isn't too late, because in so many cases that good work wasn't done - because it wasn't allowed to be done - in the crucial historical period that formed the extant scientific mindset. There are tens, hundreds of thousands of pages of material in Blue Book, for example, most of which is completely unknown to almost everybody to this day. No proper systematic analysis has ever been done of this material. >>>2) Who has the original facts/reports/data? Likely, they are >>>lost and more rationalization can occur that without the >>>original witnesses/data, nothing more can be done. >>"Likely" is guesswork, and wrong in the case mentioned. This one >>was new to me, too, recently, so I tried to find out. The >>original reports are not lost. For starters, they are in a 15- >>page Blue Book file (good "old" Blue Book eh? <g>), an >>informative discussion of the case and its extensive background >>by Joel Carpenter (NICAP site) and a brief but detailed entry in >>Brad Sparks' Unknowns catalogue. >The fact is that although there may be alot of data somewhere, >is it the "right" data to make a difference in the whole UFO >area. The original cases would seem to be enough to justify >dramatic interest and a sway of public opinion, yet this >does not affect the paradigm of science, even giving them >interest to research the topic. We all know the complexity of the reasons for scientific disdain and it isn't a purely dispassionate response to the evidence. The various social and military intelligence conditions etc that dictated the situation we find ourselves in were born in the late 1940s and 1950s. Decades later those unique conditions are changed or swept away, different minds are maybe not hog-tied by those old agendas, and as we speak William Wise & co are pressing ahead with the tremendous BB on-line project (up to mid 1952 now). This will make what is, for all its limititations, incomparably the largest and most systematically organised database on the planet available for private scientific research for the first time. (And there are all kinds of possible avenues of research, remember, not just looking for aliens, from social science and military-historical to geophysical to cognitive/perceptual, so lots of ways into it that can legitimate study of this material.) <snip> >>>So rather than hope these excellent (albeit dusty) cases can >>>change anything, we need new fresh data similar to them, only >>>with better "scientific" quality. >>Well we all want to "know" things for different reasons, but for >>those of us who are making judgements about second-hand evidence >>(as opposed to those who have had overwhelmingly doubt-busting >>personal experiences) the existing data is all we have by which >>to justify any course of action to ourselves, never mind others. >Yes, but the problem I see is that we must have certain levels >of trust built into this kind of work. How can anyone know these >reports are true unless you can somehow verify it independently? >They may be the best sounding reports anyone could have come up >with, but did they happen or is it all just a story? Even with >multiple witnesses, photos, whatever, can't it all be fudged for >some reason. This becomes kinda of paranoid, but it relates to >our fundamental assumptions of reality. Most of the time, we >assume most of what we read or hear (in news) has some level of >reality because it is too tedious to actually verify the facts >independently. However, the same holds true for UFO cases. I, >for instance, can independently verify that a recent UFO case is >a NOSS triad observation, thus proving to me that the witnesses >were fairly good observers. Sadly, its also proven to not be a >UFO. As an antidote to pessimism, maybe recall that the scientific consensus on ball lightning was changed purely because of generational changes in attitude to theoretical possibilities, not because of new field research with optical trackers or passive radar either. Incrementally over a long period, all those old sporadic witness reports and photographs ceased to be dismissed as fakes and unprovable anecdotes and started to be treated as scientific data. The same things were said by parades of experts about earthquake luminescence too, so we're not in bad company. The psychosocially charged context of "UFOs" has amplified the difficulties, upping the stakes and spreading the polarisation of opinion across science and the whole of society, whereas battles about ball lightning rarely expanded outwith the special interest communities and were fought over a smaller front for fewer decades. But there is no qualitative difference and no reason to think a similar outcome impossible (provided the hope of progress is not completely thrown off the tracks in future years by worrying tremors of fundamentalist (anti)intellectual revolution all around us) >>If you already have these "excellent" cases that are "clearly ET >>related" then I guess the important questions are already >>answered for you and you don't need any deeper examination of >>the evidence or your own instincts, motivations and convictions >>about it. I still do. >If you agree on the objective reality of these past UFO cases, >then you don't have to do anymore work. If I had not seen these >kind of cases, I would simply shrug off UFOs as bunk. They >indicate that something (likely ET related) is happening. But >the problem still remains that if I do not experience this level >of evidence myself, I must remain in a very trusting mode, which >my experience in this world seems to indicate is not wise. I share your reservation about the level of much of the evidence we have been exposed to, and new direct evidence via field research is one route around this difficulty, but it isn't the exclusive route. My point is that almost any individual past case you care to delve into will reveal more than you thought, and the totality of latent information is gigantic. Never has this stuff been available freely to scientists worldwide before. The internet and electronic media has changed the landscape almost overnight. Pages of UFO investigations and analysis can be freely available and googled by anyone in the privacy their own home without embarrassment, no matter if they're an eminent professor or whatever their colleagues might think. And before, how was a scientist going to refernce case data that she could only get from saucer books, or at best from journals made suspect by association? With BB online and on disc, scientists will for the first time be able to extract and cite facts, figures and references from a publicly accessible database of original official records. >>If you want only to make a case to yourself for $10,000 seed >>funding for an optical tracking network to satisfy what you >>described (in another thread) as a purely personal quest, then >>you've clearly already won the argument, so go and buy it. But >>if you want to make a case to someone else, then all you can >>adduce to buttress your argument is (by definition) existing >>data. Either way, as a matter of conscience or of practical >>persuasion, you are bound to do your best by the data there is. >True. But even the cases with no further research should be >enough to convince investors. Since the past cases have not >seemed to generated investor interest, then I must assume some >weird sociological phenomena is going on. One in which people >don't want to take a chance with a "silly" sounding idea. Of course a weird sociological phenomenon has been going on, for fifty+ years. Weird actions and opinions on all sides of the debate have crippled it, encouraged and manipulated by all kinds of extra-scientific vested interests. Our challenge is to finally stop this by insisting on conscientious rigour in how we mediate between the evidence and those metaphorical or actual investors (sounds easy if you say it quick!) and by making the maximum information freely available to the maximum number of potential researchers - which is why the BB online archive is such a fantastic step change. >>>Personally, no matter how many decimal points you put on >>>readings, I doubt science _can_ accept these UFOs are real and >>>alien. >>I don't know where this comes from. >I only mean that no matter how well we take readings with our >UFO field research, a firm, unshakable bias exists in "science" >that precludes its consideration of UFOs as a worthy topic of >research. Science moves by degrees so it may take centuries for >it to come to terms with UFOs that are alien related. It isn't personally necessary, to me, that this is what science has to conclude in order for the effort to understand to have been worth it. Yes, whatever changed consensus appears will appear when it appears. How can we expect to dictate a timetable? All we can do is our best. >>The prior questions of >>interest to me are: What manner of thing did Clarence Johnson & >>co see in December 1953? >But you may come up with the answer, we do not have enough >information to know. A dead end. At what point would _you_ be >able to say such a case was clearly alien? Again that really _really_ is not, for me, the unique end point towards which all this is aiming. I don't know when or in what circumstances I might in future experience "closure" and decide that this UFO business is finally done and dusted. It might be at the point of saying "clearly alien" but that's only one absorption line in a spectrum of possibilities that goes out of my ken into areas of ultrathink and infrathink, and there is so much fine structure even inside that narrow line that it's daunting to contemplate. My approach is more pragmatic (an American-dominated philosophy, hurrah for the colonials! though I am an old Brit) :- try and order my ideas as clearly as possible to deal effectively with the information that exists, so that others are hindered by me
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 21 UFO Over Santiago del Estero Argentina From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:03:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:10:08 -0500 Subject: UFO Over Santiago del Estero Argentina INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology November 21, 2005 Source: Circulo Ufologico Riocuartense (COR) and Cronica (newspaper) Date: 11.21.2005 UFO OVER SANTIAGO DEL ESTERO A strange luminous object engaging in sudden movements in the sky was seen by eight police officers patrolling the locality of Malbran in Santiago del Estero, department of Aguirre, as was reported today. The phenomenon lasted for half an hour and was further witnessed by other residents of that community. Police officers from the locality were later able to ascertain that the phenomenon was seen by residents of the outlying towns, although no one has been able to explain the object's orgin. According to today's edition of the El Liberal newspaper, the incident took place last Saturday evening. It all began when officer Ariel Roldan and seven other men under his command rode together in a vehicle belonging to the Provincial Police. One of the officers traveling in the vehicle's payload alerted the others to the presence of a "large luminous object" in the sky. The intense white light moved "from one side of the vehicle to another", causing the law enforcement agents to pull over and get out of the vehicle to find out what was going on. They immediately lit flares and tried to approach, setting out along a local road, as was reported. However, the light made a sudden movement shortly afterward and left the area. According to the description subsequently offered by the police officers, the object had "a very powerful light" and flew at an estimated altitude of 4000 meters. After this strange experience, the officers were able to attest that they were not the only ones who had experienced it. Aside from verifying that a number of motorists driving through the area had seen the object, they learned that it had also been observed in several
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 21 UFO Over Necochea Argentina From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:59:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:12:13 -0500 Subject: UFO Over Necochea Argentina INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology November 21, 2005 Source: Planeta UFO Date: 11.20.05 Argentina: UFO Presence Over Necochea, Argentina [The following report was received this morning from INEXPLICATA contributing editor Guillermo D. Gimenez]: At approximately 23:40 hours on Sunday, November 20, 2005, a large multicolored object was seen over the seacoast facing the city of Necohcea in the extreme southeastern corner of the Province of Buenos Aires, Argentina. Numerous eyewitnesses on the coast were able to witness--after a very hot day-- the maneuvers of a large circular object over the sea and heading southward. The object issued a variety of lights colored blue, red, yellow and white without making any noise whatsoever. The object or ball of light was over the sea facing the city, finally heading south along the coast, becoming lost in the dark of night. Workers who were on the city of Necochea's breakwater at the time, in the Puerto Quequ=E9n-Necochea area, were also witnesses to this event, as they could see the object's maneuvers from said vantage point. "All of us were exhilarated as we worked at the tip of the breakwater - we could see the object, which emitted multicolored lights over the sea. Finally, after several minutes of observations, it lost itself heading toward Punta Negra in the darkness of the night." It should be noted that Punta Negra is a coastal community of the City of Necochea, receiving its name by the color of its sands, a consequence of high iron concentrations. The squad of workers, approximately 8 people, were working on the expansion of the city of Necochea's breakwater, working a 12 hour shift. When consulted, the local Airport reported that no aerial artifacts flew over the area, much less at that time of night. There is no doubt that many people witnessed this object, particularly all of those who were enjoying a very warm night facing the shores of Necochea.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 21 Puerto Rican Legislation To Combat False Alarms From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:00:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:14:55 -0500 Subject: Puerto Rican Legislation To Combat False Alarms INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology November 21, 2005 Source: Proyecto ARGUS Date: November 21, 2005 Hoaxers Beware: Puerto Rico Seeks to Enact Legislation to Combat False Alarms Senator Norma Burgos presented a bill that seeks to classify as a misdemeanor any fantasy "that provokes an unnecessary mobilization of the governmental machinery" Some may wonder if this may represent a corrective measure on the legislator=92s part, who perhaps became aware, finally that the mysterious "unpleasant" video that she mentioned so often =96 and which caused a mobilization of the governmental machinery =96 never existed. Don=92t be fooled. Senator Burgos is trying to fight against the Ghost Woman of Lajas. "Allegations of this manifestation mobilized hundreds of police officers due to the amount of curiosity seekers who reported to the location to witness the [alleged] events," complained Burgos, who introduced the bill along with senators Hector Martinez and Jose Emilio Gonzalez. When insisting on Video 59 =96 that is to say, the Ghost Woman =96 Burgos noted: "All of this commotion turned out to be a joke concocted by two people with the aim of frightening a third party."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 21 Project Paperclip Dark Side Of The Moon From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:47:26 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:20:30 -0500 Subject: Project Paperclip Dark Side Of The Moon Source: BBC News - London, UK http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4443934.stm Monday, 21 November 2005 Project Paperclip: Dark Side Of The Moon By Andrew Walker BBC News Sixty years ago the US hired Nazi scientists to lead pioneering projects, such as the race to conquer space. These men provided the US with cutting-edge technology which still leads the way today, but at a cost. The end of World War II saw an intense scramble for Nazi Germany's many technological secrets. The Allies vied to plunder as much equipment and expertise as possible from the rubble of the Thousand Year Reich for themselves, while preventing others from doing the same. The range of Germany's technical achievement astounded Allied scientific intelligence experts accompanying the invading forces in 1945. Supersonic rockets, nerve gas, jet aircraft, guided missiles, stealth technology and hardened armour were just some of the groundbreaking technologies developed in Nazi laboratories, workshops and factories, even as Germany was losing the war. And it was the US and the Soviet Union which, in the first days of the Cold War, found themselves in a race against time to uncover Hitler's scientific secrets. In May 1945, Stalin's legions secured the atomic research labs at the prestigious Kaiser Wilhelm Institute in the suburbs of Berlin, giving their master the kernel of what would become the vast Soviet nuclear arsenal. US forces removed V-2 missiles from the vast Nordhausen complex, built under the Harz Mountains in central Germany, just before the Soviets took over the factory, in what would become their area of occupation. And the team which had built the V-2, led by Wernher von Braun, also fell into American hands. Crimes Shortly afterwards Major-General Hugh Knerr, deputy commander of the US Air Force in Europe, wrote: "Occupation of German scientific and industrial establishments has revealed the fact that we have been alarmingly backward in many fields of research. "If we do not take the opportunity to seize the apparatus and the brains that developed it and put the combination back to work promptly, we will remain several years behind while we attempt to cover a field already exploited." Thus began Project Paperclip, the US operation which saw von Braun and more than 700 others spirited out of Germany from under the noses of the US's allies. Its aim was simple: "To exploit German scientists for American research and to deny these intellectual resources to the Soviet Union." Events moved rapidly. President Truman authorised Paperclip in August 1945 and, on 18 November, the first Germans reached America. There was, though, one major problem. Truman had expressly ordered that anyone found "to have been a member of the Nazi party and more than a nominal participant in its activities, or an active supporter of Nazism militarism" would be excluded. Under this criterion even von Braun himself, the man who masterminded the Moon shots, would have been ineligible to serve the US. A member of numerous Nazi organisations, he also held rank in the SS. His initial intelligence file described him as "a security risk". And von Braun's associates included: - Arthur Rudolph, chief operations director at Nordhausen, where 20,000 slave labourers died producing V-2 missiles. Led the team which built the Saturn V rocket. Described as "100 per cent Nazi, dangerous type". - Kurt Debus, rocket launch specialist, another SS officer. His report stated: "He should be interned as a menace to the security of the Allied Forces." - Hubertus Strughold, later called "the father of space medicine", designed Nasa's on-board life-support systems. Some of his subordinates conducted human "experiments" at Dachau and Auschwitz, where inmates were frozen and put into low-pressure chambers, often dying in the process. All of these men were cleared to work for the US, their alleged crimes covered up and their backgrounds bleached by a military which saw winning the Cold War, and not upholding justice, as its first priority. And the paperclip which secured their new details in their personnel files gave the whole operation its name. Sixty years on, the legacy of Paperclip remains as vital as ever. With its radar-absorbing carbon impregnated plywood skin and swept-back single wing, the 1944 Horten Ho 229 was arguably the first stealth aircraft. The US military made one available to Northrop Aviation, the company which would produce the $2bn B-2 Stealth bomber - to all intents and purposes a modern clone of the Horten - a generation later. Cruise missiles are still based on the design of the V-1 missile and the scramjets powering Nasa's state-of-the-art X-43 hypersonic aircraft owe much to German jet pioneers. Added to this, the large number of still-secret Paperclip documents has led many people, including Nick Cook, Aerospace Consultant at Jane's Defence Weekly, to speculate that the US may have developed even more advanced Nazi technology, including anti-gravity devices, a potential source of vast amounts of free energy. Cook says that such technology "could be so destructive that it would endanger world peace and the US decided to keep it secret
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Magonia Reviews From: John Harney <magonia.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:58:06 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 06:43:38 -0500 Subject: Magonia Reviews As it is not possible at present to update the Magonia web site, some material is now being archived on the Magonia Extra site. A new section has been started, for selected reviews from Magonia. The first review is one by Peter Rogerson of Bill Chalker's recent book, Hair of the Alien. It is available at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:04:14 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 06:46:42 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> Date: Monday, November 21, 2005 11:56 AM Subject: UFO UpDate: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >Source: The Wichita Eagle - Wichita, Kansas, USA >http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/nation/13214050.htm >Psychologist: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >By Richard Morin >Washington Post >Accounts of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens >have one eerie similarity. >When serious researchers like psychologist Frederick Malmstrom >have asked self-proclaimed abductees what their out-of-this- >world kidnappers looked like, they inevitably describe beings >with large heads, big eyes, gray skin, smooth features, a barely >visible or absent mouth and smallish bodies. >Malmstrom, a visiting scholar at the U.S. Air Force Academy, now >thinks he recognizes that face. It's Mommy - or at least the >image of a "prototypical female face" that's hard-wired into a >baby's brain and helps newborns instantly respond to their >mothers. Here we go! Another HA (Horse's Ass) "psychological" "explanation" from the psycho-socio debunking branch. Now the aliens resemble "Mommy." According to another HA psycho explanation from Martin Kottmeyer, they came from "Baby," i.e. a human fetus. (Unknown to most of us, human fetuses have lots of light and mirrors in the womb with which to gaze upon themselves, thus imprinting their own "alien" resemblance onto their unborn brain.) So is it "Mommy" or is it "Baby"? Take your pick. No doubt, the hard-core debunkers will insist both are simultaneously the correct explanation. >Scientists have known for years that animals are born with >certain visual recognition "templates" that help them survive. >In one famous study, a scientist found that newly hatched >chickens automatically cowered from shadows in the shape of a >predator (such as a hawk) while the shadow of a nonpredator - >a goose - elicited no such fearful response. >There's similar evidence that human babies are programmed to >react to a generalized face. >Studies show that up until 2 months of age, an infant will react >favorably to anything resembling a human face -- even a >Halloween mask. This is a good example of padding a theory with irrelevant nonsense. What does babies reacting to basic features of a face have to do with people having very elaborate alien abduction scenarios? >In fact, when Malmstrom optically altered a photo of a woman in >a way consistent with the characteristics of a newborn's vision >-- astigmatism, an extremely shallow focal plane -- the >resulting face looked remarkably like those big-eyed aliens >drawn by self-declared abductees, he reports in the latest issue >of the magazine Skeptic, which features scholarly articles on >the paranormal and other extraordinary claims. This is more utter bilge and irrelevancy. Infants tend toward higher astigmatism, but this is virtually gone by age 3. Higher astimatism will tend to distort shapes slightly. Thus a circle will appear to be slightly squashed into an oval. None of this will make for huge bald heads, tiny chins, huge black eyes, slit-like mouth, spindly body, etc. Infants also tend to have a near, almost fixed focal plane (typically around 1 meter from the eye), but accurate focal ability becomes very adult-like by age one, along with visual acuity. Basically, all that is being said here, is that young infants will tend to see things out-of-focus more at first and maybe a little distorted at first, but this changes rather rapidly as their vision matures. Again, none of this will make for huge bald heads, big black eyes, etc., when they look at "Mommy." If you don't believe me, take a picture of your favorite "Mommy" face, use a paint program to blur it as severely as you like, and maybe stretch it 10% horizontally or vertically to simulate a very severe astigmatism. Does anybody get the face of a "gray". No, what you see is a very blurry, slightly distorted, but still very human looking "Mommy." But if you're a lying debunker, this won't stop you. All it takes is a little propaganda to turn an obviously human face into an alien. Just use language like, "the resulting face looked remarkably like those big-eyed aliens." >Why do adults who claim to be abducted "see" their mothers, or >at least this prototypical female face, and not some other >important figure? Well, the grays do _not_ look like a "prototypical female face" no matter how blurred by bad focus or distorted by typical infant astigmatism, so the question is a nonstarter from the gitgo. >Malmstrom says the answer has to do with another familiar >feature of alien-abduction accounts. Virtually all of the cases >considered credible enough to study occurred when the abductees >reported they were either falling asleep, or they were >"remembered" while the subject was under hypnosis. As most of us know, this is another lie and more propaganda. A large percentage of abduction accounts occur with the person wide awake and are recounted without hypnosis. But just use the propaganda again. Ignore, the wide-awake, spontaneous recall cases and instead write, "Virtually all of the cases considered credible enough to study..." Then on some other day of the week, insist the "falling asleep" and hypnosis cases are not credible because the person was not fully conscious and not spontaneously recalling the event. Also be sure to assert the subjects were always being led by and trying to please the hypnotist. The wonderful thing about typical debunking is that it is so ridiculously easy. There is no need to be consistent or even slightly plausible. And that goes double for the HA psycho branch of debunkery. It's like getting a PhD by sending off your $75 to some Internet diploma mill. Why waste thousands of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:26:07 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 06:49:07 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:56:02 -0500 >Subject: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >Source: The Wichita Eagle - Wichita, Kansas, USA >http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/nation/13214050.htm >Sun, Nov. 20, 2005 >Psychologist: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >By Richard Morin >Washington Post >Accounts of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens >have one eerie similarity. >When serious researchers like psychologist Frederick Malmstrom >have asked self-proclaimed abductees what their out-of-this- >world kidnappers looked like, they inevitably describe beings >with large heads, big eyes, gray skin, smooth features, a barely >visible or absent mouth and smallish bodies. >Malmstrom, a visiting scholar at the U.S. Air Force Academy, now >thinks he recognizes that face. It's Mommy -- or at least the >image of a "prototypical female face" that's hard-wired into a >baby's brain and helps newborns instantly respond to their >mothers. <snip> I knew it! It's all my mom's fault! I always thought she looked a bit strange to me when I was young, with a huge, bulbous, hairless head, gigantic, piercing, terrifying black eyes resembling those of an oversized squirrel or an ant, no ears, no nose, a teeny mouth, no lips, no lipstick, no teeth, no tongue, no breath, no workable jaw, thin, grey skin, no hair to grab onto, no ear rings (no ears), no pendants or necklaces, no hand jewelry (rings or bracelets), no aroma or perfume, long, spindly arms, 6 fingers, no socks, no shoes, no nylons, no skirts or dresses or blouses, little animation, no playfulness, no talking, no singing or humming, no blowing in my face, no toys, no baby food, no breast feeding, no holding, no hugs, no kisses, no snuggles, no rocking back and forth, no lullabyes, and always with that same blank expression on her face while dressed in some kind of dark, skin-tight outfit that appeared to be bonded to her pale and lifeless, alien skin. Come to think of it, I must have had quite a few mothers like that - wordlessly floating me out of my crib, helping me walk, slamming me down on exam tables, performing certain experiments on me, etc. I think I'll wait until after the holidays are over to tell her how I saw her and her girlfriends when I was a mere baby, and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rogerson From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 23:26:40 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 06:51:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Rogerson >From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:35:23 -0500 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 19:02:23 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism >>You are clearly narked because I refuse to accept your >>apparent thesis that puzzling UFO reports must be assumed to >>have an exotic origin unless someone can prove otherwise. >Amazing. Absolutely amazing. Never have I said or implied any >such thing. >A small lesson in logic: I rejected the thesis that puzzling UFO >reports can be assumed to have a non-exotic origin, unless >someone can prove otherwise. It certainly doesn't follow that I >therefore think these reports must be assumed to be exotic. >Or let me state this in the form of two syllogisms. >Faulty reasoning (which Peter, without any evidence, imagines >that I do): >We can't assume that puzzling UFO reports have a non-exotic >origin. >This UFO report is puzzling. >Therefore we can assume that it has an exotic origin. >Correct reasoning: >We can't assume that puzzling UFO reports have a non-exotic >origin. >This UFO report is puzzling. >Therefore we can't assume that it has a non-exotic origin. >I would love to see Peter slip out of his testy rhetoric, and >state his arguments as syllogisms. I think we'd learn a lot that >way, about him, if not about UFOs. >Greg Sandow Well then I apologise for getting your views wrong. My own views are roughly that the term ufo is just a social label that people apply to a vast range of phenomena and experiences which puzzle them. People have all sorts of puzzling and anomalous experiences which they tend to interpret in the terms of the culture and times in which they live. I don't rule out the possibility that some of these experiences and phenomena may be generated by poorly understood or completely uncatalogued physical or psychological processes. Do these count as _exotic_, if not what would. Or is the word exotic just a euphemism for non human intelligences. In reality non exotic phenomena or processes might be more interesting that exotic ones. For example if some UFO reports are produced by sleep disorder phenomena affecting car drivers, these may give clues which could reduce accidents and save lives. If some abduction stories are means by which people can articulate feelings about their lives and society which they cannot speak of directly, then maybe they are saying something important which we should listen to. Again if some UFO reports are generated by poorly understood phenomena which also could cause accidents, or be new sources of energy, these are worth looking into. On the other hand a massively exotic hypothesis such as, say, that the whole universe is a vast computer
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 18:42:05 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 06:53:53 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >Source: The Wichita Eagle - Wichita, Kansas, USA >http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/nation/13214050.htm >Sun, Nov. 20, 2005 >Psychologist: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >By Richard Morin >Washington Post >Accounts of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens >have one eerie similarity. >When serious researchers like psychologist Frederick >Malmstrom >have asked self-proclaimed abductees what their out-of-this- >world kidnappers looked like, they inevitably describe beings >with large heads, big eyes, gray skin, smooth features, a barely >visible or absent mouth and smallish bodies. <snip> >Why do adults who claim to be abducted "see" their mothers, or >at least this prototypical female face, and not some other >important figure? >Malmstrom says the answer has to do with another familiar >feature of alien-abduction accounts. Virtually all of the cases >considered credible enough to study occurred when the >abductees >reported they were either falling asleep, or they were >"remembered" while the subject was under hypnosis. Okay, I've just about had it now. I'm one remark away from lettin' loose a bunch of cuss words that'd make a drill seargent run home to his momma's preacher's momma and cry. If every top ufologist doesn't come down on this story with a ton of bricks it's because they're part and parcel to this lame ass attempt at maintaining the status quo. Your worst enemies have raised their heads together like some 'Knucklehead Smith' form of the mythical hydra. I wouldn't send a copy of Skeptic Magazine to an Al Quaeda held captive to wipe his hindparts with. This sure put the 'it' in pitiful. Once again, the press and some headshrinker team up to try to call the shots by widely blanketing every abduction experience and putting a label on it. Cowardice, incompetence, control. Even when psychiatrists label abductees as non psychopathalogical as did the late Dr. Mack and even the Lucille Magillicutty of psychiatry, Dr. Susan Clancy, that doesn't get the headlines. It's like the powers that be 'want' abductees and ufologists and anyone interested in it labled nut cases. I've even heard top ufologists refer to people as "UFO nutcases". That helped the cause as much as lightin' one's own ass on fire. I'm sure the people who've suffered for decades really appreciated that. We need to let the public know they're not 'crazy'. No more than some throwbacks who bomb other countries looking for weapons that aren't there, then backpeddle to blame others for telling them that there were. There should be a vehement protest to this story and an admonishment to the press for not giving equal time by the professionals. It's a disgusting abuse of our rights as citizens of the U.S. and a foreboding of how sinister a world we're about to spiral in to if we don't stand up.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Randle From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:02:07 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 06:57:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Randle Good Evening List, All - So I'm watching Earth Vs The Flying Saucers yesterday and I hear one of the characters mention the "FOO" lights which is clearly meant to be the FOO Fighters... and then explain that these were ionizations of the atmosphere... in other words, in a science fiction movie that was made in 1956, they're talking about Phil Klass' famous explanation for UFOs. I doubt if this is where he
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Matteson From: Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:01:30 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 06:59:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Matteson Hi Don: >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:27:07 -0400 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >While writing Dark Object I delved into the origins of domestic >intelligence in the US related to [actually driven by] >Canadian/British Intel beginning back in 1939 and some of the >curious links that continued after the war. All of it got cut >from the final draft and explained as "it would be of no interest >to the American reader." Such a cavalier attitude. Not your fault of course; too bad no
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Re: BS In The Desert - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:58:21 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:04:26 -0500 Subject: Re: BS In The Desert - Balaskas >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 10:46:35 -0400 >Subject: Re: BS In The Desert >>From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:01:35 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >>Subject: Re: BS In The Desert <snip> >>d. The first nuclear chain reaction (not including what Nature >>accidently achieved in Gabon, Africa several billion years ago) >>was achieved by physicists at the University of Chicago in 1942, >>Stan Friedman's (and Carl Sagan's) alma mater. If this nuclear >>test under the west stands of Stagg Field was allowed to proceed >>further, they would have blown up the university and most of >>Chicago too. >This is scaremongering balderdash. The pile used pieces of >natural uranium in a high purity Carbon moderator pile. Hardly >able to produce a nuclear weapon. Not nearly as easy as >suggested here. Today I got an invitation to attend the special free concert performance of 'Copenhagen', a play about the meeting between German physicist Werner Heisenberg and his Danish counterpart, Niels Bohr in Nazi-occupied Copenhagen in 1941. Although it is not known what these two physicists talked about during this meeting which ended in disaster, I suspect it was about the building and using of a nuclear bomb. Although it is widely accepted by my physics colleagues that the first sustained nuclear chain reaction occurred at the University of Chicago in December 2, 1942, I would argue that the Germans at the University of Leipzig, where Heisenberg was testing a nuclear pile that consisted of powdered uranium and heavy water, beat the Americans by half a year! Once the German nuclear pile started to heat up rapidly and started to vibrate, Heisenberg and his aide rushed out of their lab just before an enormous explosion set the building on fire! I suspect that the secrecy that cloaked his nuclear experiments prevented Heisenberg from warning the members of the fire brigade and those living in Leipzig (a city south of Berlin) of the dangers of the radioactive fallout from this first, but still little known, nuclear explosion on June 7, 1942. The sustained nuclear reaction at the University of Chicago, if not shut down when it was, could have resulted in a similar meltdown and explosion that would have put millions of Americans living in Chicago at risk. >>Other examples of incompetent and dangerous use of >>highly volatile material should include the U.S.'s solution to >>its disposal problems with tons of depleted uranium by dumping >>it on other countries! >Please site some examples of depleted uranium being dumped on >other countries. It has been used in shells used in Iraq and >other places. Hardly the same thing. Please note the zillion >tons of radioactive material being released at coal fired power >plants world wide every year. On October 4, 1992, an El Al cargo Boeing 747 crashed and exploded in a residential complex of Amsterdam killing 43 people. Although questions still remained as to what the nature of the cargo aboard the EL Al plane was, the Dutch citizens and rescue crews were exposed to radioactive fallout from several hundred kilograms of depleted uranium carried as counterweights by this and all early Boeing 747s. In his paper in the December 1988 issue of 'Nature' American physicist Robert Parker showed that the high temperatures produced by the explosion of a Boeing 747 crash is enough to oxide the depleted uranium and create a cloud of radioactive dust that could poison up to 250,000 people that were around to breath it in. It is estimated that 340 tons of depleted uranium where scattered throughout Iraq and surrounding countries in the Middle East during the U.S. lead war in 1991. Another 34 tons were scattered throughout Yugoslavia and neighbouring European states in another U.S. lead war a few years later. The short term health effects of depleted uranium on U.S. and allied troops is well documented but the long term health effects of the people still living in those countries is unknown but is expected to cause many thousands, if not millions, of premature deaths. As for your statement that "zillions of tons of radioactive material being released at coal fired plants world wide every year", this is "scaremongering balderdash"! Yes, there is background radiation from certain elements (not depleted uranium) in the soil beneath your feet and even from the potassium rich banana that I had as a snack today but this is nothing compared to the willful and, in my opinion, criminal act by the U.S. of dumping uranium waste on other countries. >>If the Roswell >>UFO incident is eventually conclusively shown to have been a >>UFO(s) that were not manufactured here on Earth, it wouldn't >>rule out U.S. scientific/technological involvement in this >>incident or justify our conclusion that everything in Nick >>Redfern's book was wrong. >I did a review of Nick Redfern's book that was published in UFO >Magazine and is on my website at: >www.stantonfriedman.com >I certainly didn't suggest that everything in his book was >wrong. Just the basic premises about both Roswell and radiation >shielding for nuclear aircraft. There are still too many things about the modern UFO era and the start of the nuclear age, which both began around the same time involving many of the same players, that Nick Redfern, you or I don't know anything about to be able to make a final judgement
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:53:23 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:07:12 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >Source: The Wichita Eagle - Wichita, Kansas, USA >http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/nation/13214050.htm >Sun, Nov. 20, 2005 >Psychologist: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >By Richard Morin >Washington Post >Accounts of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens >have one eerie similarity. >When serious researchers like psychologist Frederick Malmstrom >have asked self-proclaimed abductees what their out-of-this- >world kidnappers looked like, they inevitably describe beings >with large heads, big eyes, gray skin, smooth features, a barely >visible or absent mouth and smallish bodies. <snip> >Why do adults who claim to be abducted "see" their mothers, or >at least this prototypical female face, and not some other >important figure? >Malmstrom says the answer has to do with another familiar >feature of alien-abduction accounts. Virtually all of the cases >considered credible enough to study occurred when the abductees >reported they were either falling asleep, or they were >"remembered" while the subject was under hypnosis. Barf! About 1/4 of the cases are remembered consciously. There are
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Re: Abductees In The Jail House - Aubeck From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:10:56 +0000 (GMT) Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:09:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Abductees In The Jail House - Aubeck >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 03:30:34 EST >Subject: Abductees In The Jail House >The abductee situation is full of stories but one >that I have had on the back burner for a long time is whether >any abductees had been or are incarcerated in jails/prisons. >Reason I bring this up is because I didn't ask the >question but a story was told to me by pals who are corrections >officers at the biggest prisons in the U.S. <snip> >I figured abduction was abduction and the visitors >didn't know the difference or felt a guy in stir was easier >pickins. >So I was wondering if anyone had read or researched >abductees who were captured while incarcerated. Hi Greg, According to official statistics, it is becoming increasingly probable that abductees will serve a jail sentence at some time in their lives. The U.S. Bureau of Justice stated, on June 30th 2004, that there were 2,131,180 Americans in jail. Of these, "713,990 were in local jails, 1,241,034 in state prisons, 169,370 in federal prisons and 6,786 in non-secure privately operated facilities." In recent history the number of prisoners in the U.S. seems to be increasing: 1992 1,295,150 1995 1,585,586 1998 1,816,931 2001 1,961,247 However, the reason I haven't been able to get a good night's sleep in months is that these clumsy little grey fellas are _renowned_ for dropping people miles from where they pick them up. Who knows what violent criminals are now on the loose because of alien intervention? It's highly worrying.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Re: Project Paperclip Dark Side Of The Moon - McCoy From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy.nul> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:35:14 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:20:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Project Paperclip Dark Side Of The Moon - McCoy >From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:47:26 -0700 >Subject: Project Paperclip Dark Side Of The Moon >Source: BBC News - London, UK >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4443934.stm > >Monday, 21 November 2005 Hello Listertions, I am a student of Aviation History. I have asked, why, if the Germans held all this mysterious Technology, didn't they in WWII erase Bomber Command and the Mighty 8th from the the skies? Why didn't the Me 262's wipe out the P-47s and P-51s? Well, for one thing, sheer numbers. Another was vulnerablility on takeoff and landing. Does any one know that the Max Mach number was Higher in a P-47 and a Spitfire than the 262? The Me 163, while an engineering tour de force, killed more of its pilots on landing than acutal combat? All of this vaunted Nazi engineering didn't exsist. Granted they had ideas, but no more so the Korolev, Goddard, Bell and Herman-Kelly Herman. Goring would've put his own Mama in a Concentration Camp to get UFO technology. Having had my own late father-in-Law, who was a Tanker in Patton's 3rd, experience the first attack by jet aircraft at Remagen Bridge, (mostly Arado 230 jet Bombers, some 262's). They _missed_ due to lack of training. Then the P-51's
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 03:55:49 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:38:12 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:26:07 EST >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:56:02 -0500 >>Subject: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>Source: The Wichita Eagle - Wichita, Kansas, USA >>http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/nation/13214050.htm >>Sun, Nov. 20, 2005 >>Psychologist: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>By Richard Morin Washington Post >>Accounts of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens >>have one eerie similarity. Hello Dave, Dave (and no doubt others..)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Author Discusses New Human Creation History From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:43:37 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:43:37 -0500 Subject: Author Discusses New Human Creation History Source: The Daily Nexus - UC Santa Barbara's Daily, California USA http://www.dailynexus.com/news/2005/10512.html November 21, 2005 Author Discusses A New History Of Human Creation by Matt Cappiello - Staff Writer Monday, Visitors to the Karpeles Manuscript Library last Saturday had a close encounter with an author who presented his theory that aliens are responsible for creating humans. Marshall Klarfeld, independent researcher and author of Adam: The Missing Link, spoke in downtown Santa Barbara at the Karpeles Manuscript Library at 1:30 p.m. Approximately 100 people attended the event, where Klarfeld presented his theory that aliens, using genetic engineering, created the first human beings 250,000 years ago. "We were the creation of advanced extraterrestrial beings called the Anunnaki," Klarfeld said. "This is a new history of mankind's creation... It needs to be examined by as many people as possible so we can know what the story really was." Klarfeld, who graduated from the California Institute of Technology with a degree in mechanical engineering, said evidence supporting his genetic engineering theory can be found in a collection of cuneiform tablets and "microscopically precise" cylinder seals found in modern-day Iraq. Cuneiform tablets are ancient tablets often found in the Middle East that are inscribed using a form of pictograph writing. "Much of the information we're talking about comes from information on cuneiform tablets," Klarfeld said. "There is a tremendous amount of physical and written evidence that tells this story." During his lecture Klarfeld cited ancient stone tablets as evidence for his theory, including the Epic of Gilgamesh. He said the epic - an ancient Sumerian story written on cuneiform tablets about King Gilgamesh - contains references to the Anunnaki and the creation of humans. "The Epic of Gilgamesh is a lesson to us about what happened," Klarfeld said. "The epic suggests that, in need of a distraction from Gilgamesh, the Anunnaki created the first human being." Klarfeld also referenced pyramids in Giza, Egypt, and large stones in Baalbek, Lebanon, as evidence for his theory. He said researchers do not know how ancient societies could have built such large landmarks, which suggests that they could have had some help from sources such as aliens. "I'm not sure we could do that today," Klarfeld said. "I'm a mechanical engineer. It's beyond my understanding how it can be done." Klarfeld said a cuneiform pictograph of Ishtar, the Babylonian goddess of love and war, shows an inscription on her helmet that translates as "goes far in the universe." He said this could prove ancient civilizations had contact with space-travelers. "This could be interpreted as a space helmet of some sort," Klarfeld said. Norman Cohan, director for the Karpeles Manuscript Library - which holds one of the nation's largest collections of manuscripts and also houses several of the cuneiform tablets Klarfeld referenced - said he thinks the lecture was timely, given the current debate about whether or not schools should teach evolution or more religious-based theories about the creation of mankind. He said he thinks people rarely consider the possibility that mankind could have originate in some other way. David Sampanis, who attended the lecture, said Klarfeld is just one of many scientists who think aliens are responsible for creating people. "It's not just his idea, he covered lots of common ground," Sampanis said. "There are tons of scientists synthesizing the same information." Mike Rubcic, a Summerland resident, said he thought the speech was very informative because it gave him a new way of thinking about how mankind came into being. "It was really an eye-opener," Rubcic said. "There are things
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 The Linda Moulton Howe Interview - Part I From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:53:59 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:53:59 -0500 Subject: The Linda Moulton Howe Interview - Part I Source: Phenomena Magazine http://tinyurl.com/dgyat November 22, 2005 Linda Moulton Howe on Her Career, Her Critics, and the Government In Her Own Words: The Linda Moulton Howe Interview By Stuart Miller Phenomena News Editor A lot of men don't like strong-minded women =96 they're just too intimidating and they can't mentally handle them. Linda Moulton Howe is one such woman, but then again, she's had to be. You rarely get anywhere in life pussyfooting around and as it's still, predominantly, a man's world, you have to play hard to achieve anything. And Linda has certainly achieved. Twenty six years in journalism and TV reporting and producing that has resulted in a list of awards for her work that won't fit on just one mantelpiece, she has forged a path in a wide diversity of subjects from science through to animal mutilations. And on more than one occasion she has so overwhelmed America with what she's produced that if you had touched her, you would have burnt your fingers. It is reasonable to describe her as a very successful journalist. Success naturally attracts criticism and sniping and there's certainly been a bit of that. Occasionally, Linda has made genuine errors of judgement but she wouldn't be alone by a very long way. But, hypocrisy is a much-valued human trait and we wouldn't want to detract from her critics. I found this interview interesting. I did want to make the point in our discussion that she wasn't just known for one topic and that she had successfully covered a number of different topics. That point is indeed made during the interview, more than once by Linda herself and yet I was very surprised, once we started talking, just how quickly we came round to animal mutilations. This subject is still very, very close to Linda's heart and one on which she speaks with great passion. SM: You went to Stanford and got a Masters degree in communication. I presume from that that you had it in your mind, when you went to college in the first place to eventually go into journalism? LH: Yes, I wanted to do what I did, which was to work in television, non-fiction, in documentaries and public affairs. SM: You've specialised in a number of different areas, in science, in the environment, and obviously in Ufology, etc. Is there=85 LH: No, I didn't specialise ever in my life in the word "Ufology". It's really irritating to me. I have always been a television producer, a documentary filmmaker, and an investigative reporter. That's my work. And one of the subjects that I investigated and produced a television show about was the animal mutilation phenomena affecting the United States, Canada, Australia and other parts of the world, in the summer and into the fall of 1979. That's the film A Strange Harvest. Prior to that for eleven years, I had received a National Emmy nomination, and other Emmies and a Peabody and a lot of awards for the work that I was doing in science and environmental reporting, which is what I had done before A Strange Harvest. The film is about a phenomenon that law enforcement and military and intelligence people, only off the record and not going before cameras, told me without any question and uncertain terms that the animal mutilation phenomenon of the world was linked to. This is their term, extraterrestrial biological entities. As a TV producer, documentary film maker and investigative reporter, the film that I produced that was first broadcast as a two hour special on the CBS station in Colorado was the exploration of what I learned trying to understand why these animals were being found, not only in Colorado but all over the world, with the same bloodless incisions. That was one of the hallmarks; no blood, no puncture marks from teeth or claws, no evidence of what is called natural predator attacks, and no tracks around the body of the animal, even those that were found on snow, wet sand, and powdery dust. We're talking about animals looking the same as if they had been laid down. SM: Would I be right in thinking though Linda that that was not the first documentary that you had produced. LH: Oh no. I had been doing documentaries since I graduated from Stanford in 1968. I went to work in news in Los Angeles, I was married and my husband went to Harvard and I was doing science and medical programming at WCVB-TV, the ABC station in Boston where I was a producer. Then we went to Denver where my husband was working for Time Inc. in their video division and I was hired to be director of Special Projects at the CBS station. By that time when I started the investigation into the animal mutilations in September 1979, I had been working as a TV producer and documentary filmmaker for eleven years. SM: Indeed, yes, that was really the point I wanted to make. Do you find that a lot of people make the assumption that you thought I'd made that you're only associated with cattle mutilations? LH: Yes, it's frustrating that out of the large number of news stories I have covered that the animal mutilation investigation became the benchmark of my investigative reporting career. But I guess it's because governments and law enforcement had pretty much convinced the public and media that the answers were predator or Satanic cults. When I concentrated on the actual physical evidence and eyewitness testimonies and reported straightforwardly at least one law enforcement official saying on the record he thought the perpetrators were "creatures not from this planet," I guess that was groundbreaking. But what I've learned over the past 26 years since beginning my animal mutilation investigation and the TV broadcast, A Strange Harvest, is that the word "Ufology" carries so much negative baggage. There have been in the last three years in Argentina and Chile alone at least 3,200 cases of animal mutilations reported to veterinarians and law enforcement in those countries. Veterinarians have gone on the record with the media and reports filed with SENASA, Argentina's version of our Dept. of Agriculture, that the excisions of many examined animals were subjected to high heat. But the instrument is not identified. That is exactly what I first reported with the help of pathologist and haematologist, Dr. John Altshuler. Dr. Altshuler had a respected career at the University of Colorado in Denver and then ran his own pathology and haematology lab for years until his untimely death in 2004 from a bicycle accident. Dr. Altshuler was brave enough, beginning in 1988, to help me research tissues from mutilated animals I collected in the field and returned to his lab. His findings and photomicrographs I reported for the first time in my book, An Alien Harvest =A9 1989. They were all saying that these incisions were being cut by something that was causing heat and it was Doctor John Altshuler who, looking under microscopes and taking photo micrographs, could show me that the collagen, the haemoglobin were being cooked at the very site of these incisions on the bodies of the animals that we were investigating. I think personally I have gone out into the field to more than a dozen of these animals to collect tissue and in some cases, grass and soil samples for biophysical examination. And once you have done that much field research and once you keep getting back from people who are outstanding in their field that you are dealing with something that is not easily explained, then you know that the original reports a decade earlier with law enforcement and others who are saying that we are dealing with creatures not from this planet, keeps being held up by the physical evidence we were investigating. That is the parallel track that I kept; how would anybody with a reasonable mind leave a subject in which the bottom line is that animals are being killed bloodlessly, without leaving tracks, around the world and that law enforcement and military and Intel working for the United States government link the bodies of animals around the world directly to some kind of non human presence. How do you ever leave that subject alone until the government admits it publicly? SM: So you feel you can't walk away until you've reached some sort of conclusion with it? LH: Well, it's a story that keeps going is, my point. There's not a single year since 1979 when I first started investigating the story, that there have not been so many unusual reports of animal deaths in this category around the world, including right now. There' are new cases right now and when we're talking about animal mutilations, why are they so unusual? Why do they stick out from anything that satanic cults do, what predators do, and disease? It's because all of these animals, whether it's in England where I've investigated cases there as well, it is the same thing. It is usually one ear, on the same side of the face that an eye is taken, on the same side of the face that half of the jaw flesh is taken, and often, it is a perfect half of the face, making it quite bizarre. The hide in the flesh is removed cleanly to the bone leaving nothing. Do this yourself; go and ask any veterinarian or a pathologist. If an animal is still warm to touch, which usually indicates it has been dead only zero to 12 hours, and you are looking at bone in that head, but there's not any flesh whatsoever on the bone, in the jaw and in that area, then you will hear the same thing I have heard, over and over and over again. It's not possible. The only way to get tissue off of bone is to boil it off. Okay, that didn't happen, so whatever it is that took that jaw flesh was doing so with some kind of instrument that can remove everything down to the bone. Another thing, which law enforcement asked me not to report back in the 70s and 80s as they wanted it to be one of those secret pieces of evidence that they had because they worry about copycats, whether its in humans, animals or whatever, was the fact that in case after case after case, one or two molars in the cow's jaw, were removed and always on the same side that the tissue of the eye and the ear were removed. And this was done cleanly, again without blood. The tongue in probably 95% of the cases was removed in a vertical cut deep within the throat, often upon necropsy showing that the trachea was removed along with the tongue. You would not know that if you did not have a necropsy done. In a few cases, in addition to the trachea being removed with the tongue, have also been necropsy reports of the oesophagus also being removed. And then as you move into the body of the animal, male or female, penis and scrotum on males, the udder and teats on the female in, I would say, at least the majority of cases have been excised. In the classic mysterious cases I'm talking about, the removal of the belly is either squarish, scalloped or circular. It's a very odd cut. Around any portion of the genitals and in the females, the vaginal tract is almost always taken with rectal tissue and in the male, also rectal tissue, and that gives you the classic repeated removal of tissue. There are sidebars to this in which in many cases, the tail of the animal is removed right up to the base of the tailbone. I have seen photographs of this very glassy appearance, cutting right through the tailbone. It's very odd and the tail is removed for whatever reason. And in some cases, there are what are called quarter inch wide by one inch to one and a half inch deep =96 many sheriffs that I talked to about this refer to them as being like biopsy punches =96 often from the briscuit, the neck, or even under the front legs of the animals. And it's very interesting that even right now as we speak, one of the mysteries of animal deaths in Calhan, Colorado in the United States this week has been the report of more than 16 horses found in an area that had repeated animal mutilations over and over, decade after decade. SM: Yes, I've seen that report. LH: And what is the big mysterious characteristic that they have found on all these horses? Like I was amazed to be reading that it is a quarter inch by one to two inches of what looks like a single hole and on X ray, they cannot find any bullets. Well that is consistent with the animal mutilations without the other tissue being taken on all these horses in Colorado. Why these variations in any given year and time, I have no idea. If we are dealing with a non human intelligence that is harvesting genetic material and fluids and whatever it is they are doing with earth life, it is beyond my comprehension and it has certainly been beyond the comprehension of the military and Intel people that I have talked to about what exactly is the agenda. But the bottom line is, everyone I have had off the record conversations with, including a Lieutenant Colonel in the army, admits that they know its extraterrestrial. The government does not want to admit it. They can't stop it, obviously, it's been going on for decades, maybe it's been going on for centuries under some other name, and the one thing that they don't want to open up to the public and the world is that a subject as repulsive as animal mutilations in every country and every hemisphere, over time there's been reports everywhere, that they don't want that to be the opening headline, "Sorry ladies and gentlemen, we've been hiding information from you about extraterrestrial biological entities interaction with our planet because we can't control animal mutilations. We can't stop this, we can't do that, we don't know exactly why they are here or where they are from." Which President, which Prime Minister wants to stand up in front of a thousand microphones and admit that? SM: Linda, you said very emphatically that you've been told repeatedly that it's an extraterrestrial source that is responsible for this. Have these people that have told you this ever told you how they come to know this? LH: Get a copy, a Jpeg of the book cover of The Day After Roswell c. 1997 by Lt. Col. Philip J. Corso, now deceased. In that book, he lays out very clearly the details he was privy to from his work in the Eisenhower administration about the fact, and these are his terms as well, that the animal mutilations were being conducted around the world by extraterrestrial biological entities. And I met him for the first time on July 4th 1997 at the 50th anniversary of the alleged Roswell crash at Roswell. Later on, after that event, he and I were able to talk privately in another location and also by phone. And he told me face to face that he had seen with his own eyes, highly classified documents with a date as early as 1951, during his work for the Eisenhower administration that were describing the unusual bloodless deaths of animals around the world, with the same signature of incisions, without blood, no tracks around the bodies of the animals and that was 1951, and these highly classified documents stated that the perpetrators were, quote, Extraterrestrial Biological Entities, unquote. That's what he told me before he died in 1998. SM: So in your mind, there is absolutely no chance that this is somehow connected with the American government, for one reason or another. LH: We're talking about worldwide, we're talking about cases documented even in Australia, going back to the earliest newspaper accounts in 1961 in Huntsville, Alabama. That's only ten years after Lieutenant Philip J. Corso said that he saw with his own eyes, documents dated 1951. The government of the United States would have what resources in 1951 to go around the world in both hemispheres, lifting animals from the ground, excising tissue and fluid and returning them without tracks and blood? You find the technology. SM: That's a fair point. With all the people you have talked to, has any motive ever been suggested? LH: Yes. Always the same. Genetic harvesting. SM: Why do they need so much? LH: I don't know. It falls into the category more of a food supply from the amount and the quantity. SM: Right. A few moments ago you were talking about newspaper reports of animal mutilations and cases which were not covered by the newspapers. Were you implying that there is at times an element of censorship going on here to minimize the number of accounts of this nature that appear in the media or am I drawing an inference that wasn't there? LH: What I have seen over the 26 years since I first started investigating this, as I said, I was a producer and documentary film maker and by the time I started investigating animal mutilations I had received numerous awards for my work and I'm saying, not as a pat on the back, that I had been producing and being honoured with journalistic awards for 11 years. I'm going to make a point out of this. There would be these spikes. There would be a whole flood of animal mutilations and then these stories would go away and then there would be another flood. There was such another flood in 1979 while I was working on a completely different documentary. Being my charge, my responsibility, my assignment was to always be staying up with what was happening in environmental issues, medical and scientific issues and this was happening all over the state of Colorado for which I was director of Special Projects at the CBS station. When I first learned about this story, and I know this is a circuitous answer but it's coming up to underscore what's happened in the media today and what I have seen evolve over the last 26 years, sometimes I have been stunned by the lack of courage of the media and editors to go against political restraints, that which is not politically acceptable. And that's even when they know that the explanations provided by the authorities and the government are completely bogus. And that the fact the media will buy into politically illogical explanations for phenomenon that are happening around them and will not spend money to investigate further has always astonished me, and that's where I'm headed, and I will try to make this brief. The first person who told me about the fact that there were all these mutilations was an audio man working for me on another documentary in that summer of 79. His name was Mark O'Kane. He had been working on a 20/20 ABC television network special. 20/20 had just come into existence and he told me they had shot over 100,000 feet of double system film and this was not a time of video tape. This was when you had a Nagra with a crystal sync that was umbilical to cameras and the audio man and camera man always had to be a team dancing around a story because you had to have the crystal sync keeping the audio running with the speed being synced up later on a machine and that's how we worked, that was how you got picture and sound. So to devote more than a 100, 000 feet to any story, it was an horrendous amount of money, time and effort. So that astonished me and the subject was Unusual Animal Deaths in the United States so as a television producer hearing that I said, "When is this going to air?" And he said, "Well I heard that it was dropped." And I replied, "You're saying that a network shot over 100,000 feet of double system and they dropped the story. Why?" And he said he didn't know. But he went on, "But the strange thing is Linda, we couldn't keep any batteries functioning on that entire shoot." That was a common problem I had. That was a common problem so many people covering animal mutilations have had for 30 years. Why I cannot tell you but batteries that should last for 4 or 6 hours can be put on a camera fresh and bang, in 20 minutes they're gone. And you can have 12 battery packs ready and every single one of them will experience the same thing. I do not know why but we had a constant problem which is exactly what he said 20/20 also had. That got my attention so I called up the executive producer in New York and I said that my name was Linda Moulton Howe and that I was director of Special Projects at the CBS station in Denver. My audio man on a documentary has said that he just worked with you on a shoot having to do with unusual animal deaths in the United States and that you shot over 100,000 feet of film and I wanted to find out what the status was. And to my surprise he said, "We dropped the story". I asked why and this was exactly his answer; "We're in the business of news and we could never get a hard answer." Now, if you're in my shoes, in a State in which these animals are dropping all over the place and you're hearing this from an executive in New York, wouldn't you want to find out what was behind all this? SM: Yes. LH: That's why, as director of Special Projects, I began what became the documentary A Strange Harvest which is definitely a strange harvest, and ten years later, I used the same title, changing the word Strange to Alien on the book, specifically and purposely, because in those ten years I had become absolutely convinced we were dealing with non humans, they were being seeing seen in broad daylight by ranchers, I talked to so many=85 SM: Can I stop you there. I've never heard that before. Are you saying=85 LH: It's in my books! SM: I'm sorry; I've never caught that before. LH: My gosh, yes. Newspaper reports in Colorado, I still have them and they're in my book, An Alien Harvest, and if you're hearing frustration, it's because I've tried to follow every journalistic tenet. I have tried to always have three or more eye witnesses for everything I have reported. Where I have been able to get photographs, where I've been able to get drawings, multiple eye witness accounts, I have reported them. There were newspaper accounts, one in Colorado in which a rancher is describing seeing a small being, I think it was more than one, float, that was the word in the newspaper article, float over his coral fence. SM: Good grief. LH: Oh, there's so many. I'm just astonished. If you go back, you really, really should get (laughing) An Alien Harvest And Glimpses of Other Realities Volume 1 for your own context of being able to do anything legitimate in this story, you really, really should see what's there in the facts. "When I think of the hundreds of people I have interviewed since 1979 about the global animal mutilation mystery, at least a dozen people have described seeing beams of light come out of something in the sky into pastures where animals are later found dead and mutilated. Some have even seen animals rise up in whatever the beam technology is, or being returned in the beam, or even dropped heavily to the ground from whatever the round, glowing aerial objects are that emit the beams. I've talked with law enforcement, this is an absolutely chilling case, he's now also deceased, a wonderful Sheriff called George Yarnell from Elizabeth Colorado which is very near Calhan, an area that has had animal mutilations in an intense way in cycles now for at least forty years. Sheriff Yarnell, who is in my film A Strange Harvest told me privately, he would not tell me on camera because so many sheriffs have had so many weird and strange encounters and they were afraid if they were ever on television or on radio or in the newspapers talking about what they had really seen and really experienced that they would be ridiculed, which also comes back to your original question; Why has the media totally avoided this subject? It is politically unacceptable and when people reported animal mutilations they were ridiculed, including law enforcement. So they always came up with other explanations. Satanic cults, predators, or disease, none of which has ever explained any of this. OK, so Sheriff Yarnell hired a pilot, the Sheriff of Albert County where Elizabeth is. He gets the OK with the aviation people, on a formal law enforcement investigation, to fly at night in pure darkness without any lights on the plane. And what are they looking for? They're trying to hide themselves, to camouflage themselves in the dark, to look for lights on the ground, because the one thing that every sheriff and every deputy that I've interviewed, and I interviewed them all over the place, they talked about the orange glowing lights or the white glowing lights that were always, always linked to animal mutilations, and that's what they were looking for. It's dark and all of a sudden the Sheriff said that the pilot almost screamed. It was a very loud yell and he sounded afraid. The Sheriff said he had been looking out of a window, looking for lights and the pilot yelled and screamed, "Look down". And when he looked down, in the darkness, somehow dark against dark, they were in a Cessna and he could see underneath them there was the circumference of a darker circle right below the plane, blotting out the ground. The pilot said, "There is something tracking, right below us." It scared Sheriff George Yarnell. SM: Is there any connection in your mind between cattle mutilations and human mutilations? LH: In the 26 years I have tried to understand the story, I have heard rumours, I've heard circumstantial descriptions, I have yet to see a single piece of forensic evidence, coroners report, medical report of any kind concerning human mutilations. SM: Right, so you don't think there's any connection there at all. LH: How could I report such a connection if there is no proof? SM: Just one other factor in this. A lot of people, when talking about cattle mutilations, will mention black helicopters. Is there anything in that as far as you're concerned or is it something that somebody's made up? LH: Oh no, they were an intimate part of animal mutilations. I'll give you two examples. Lou Sherodo, Chief Investigator in the District Attorney's office in Trinidad, Colorado; the crew and I were sitting across from him at 10:00 pm late one night. It was the only time we could get with him because his life was so overwhelmed with animal mutilation reports that he was going to. I was asking him the same question that I ask every single person that I talk with; who or what do you think is killing and mutilating these animals? And he was the first person in law enforcement to say on the record in front of a TV camera what everybody else had been telling me off the record. He said, "Other investigators and I have come to the conclusion that we are dealing with creatures not of this planet." All of that is in the documentary. Then he volunteered and went on to relate another strange part of this story. All of the black helicopters that are always reported being in the pastures, we had already talked about the orange lights and the white lights, and he said, "You tell me Linda, what black helicopter dissolves into a cloud?" Well, I heard from so many people in Montana and Wyoming and Colorado and Utah and all over the place in Canada, of people who had been watching what they thought was a silent, black helicopter, in a blue sky, that would just dissolve into white mist. You tell me what that is. Law enforcement didn't know what it was. But, I was pausing there for you to think about it but here is the conclusion that surfaced from so many in law enforcement; "We came to the conclusion that we were dealing with an intelligence than can camouflage itself as anything that it wants to that is here on earth, including black helicopters." That's in the film. That's been on the record since it was first broadcast in May of 1980 and we're talking in October of 2005, so for 25 years his words have been on the record.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Culture Briefs From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:01:37 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:01:37 -0500 Subject: Culture Briefs Source: The Washington Times - Washington D.C., USA http://washingtontimes.com/culture/20051120-112855-5578r.htm November 21, 2005 Culture Briefs Activist ideas "I'd like to burn you at the stake,' growled Betty Friedan at Phyllis Schlafly during a public debate over the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) at Illinois State University in 1973. Friedan and other feminists were unnerved by Schlafly. She was as sophisticated and accomplished as they were, but profoundly antifeminist. They tried everything to pass ERA and defeat Schlafly, from bribing state legislators to using witchcraft, but to no avail. "Conservative intellectuals did not simply plant the seed from which the grassroots grew, as the story usually goes, but watched the grassroots sprout up simultaneously and independently. "The intellectuals and activists then came together. Schlafly was a central figure in uniting these two indispensable components of the movement. By writing, speaking, and organizing seminars, she brought ideas to the activists." -- Bracy Bersnak, writing on "The Book on Phyllis Schlafly," Nov. 17 in the American Spectator online at www.spectator.org Not so strange "The UFO cultural moment in America is long since over, having gone out with the Clintons and grunge rock in the '90s. Ironically, the force that killed the UFO fad is the same force that catapulted it to super-stardom: the Internet. "In the days when USENET was something other than a spam swap, UFO geeks hit 'send' to exchange myths, sightings, speculations, secret documents, lies, truths, and even occasionally facts about those strange lights in the sky. Yet in recent years, interest in the UFO phenomenon has withered. "The Internet showed this particular emperor to be lacking in clothes. If UFOs and alien visitations were genuine, tangible, objective realities, the Internet would be an unstoppable force for detecting them. How could marauding alien kidnappers remain hidden in a nation with millions of webcams? "Just as our technology for finding and understanding UFOs improved dramatically, the manifestations of UFOs dwindled away. For an allegedly real phenomenon, UFOs sure do a good job of acting like the imaginary friend of the true believers. How strange, that they should disappear just as we develop the ability to see them clearly. Or perhaps it isn't so strange." -- Douglas Kern, writing on "Internet Killed the Alien Star," Nov. 9 in Tech Central Station at www.techcentralstation.com Art of rioting "Violence, and particularly violence as an expression of rebellion, occupies such a distinct place in the French aesthetic that this month's riots can hardly be called anything but, well, French. In France, violence is not merely romanticized... it is intellectualized as a legitimate manifestation of philosophical belief. This is linked strongly, of course, to the revolution and to the guillotine, one of the most macabre symbols of freedom ever conceived. ... In the 20th century, it was Jean-Paul Sartre who made the tradition modern. Violence, he wrote, is 'the beginning of humanity.' He does not seem to have mentioned what the end is. "Those rioting these past weeks did not seem to know what the end was, either, but their actions were new iterations of an old tradition. 'La poesie est dans la rue.' ... Sartre asserted the connection plainly: 'iolence ... is man recreating himself.' But violence itself is not the creation of anything; it is merely
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Brass & Dignitaries To Speak At Hawaii Conference From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:07:08 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:07:08 -0500 Subject: Brass & Dignitaries To Speak At Hawaii Conference Source: YahooNews http://tinyurl.com/7nxfo Nov. 21 2005 Big Brass & Dignitaries to Speak at Upcoming Hawaii Conference KONA, Hawaii, /U.S. Newswire/ -- What topic could possibly bring together a brigadier general, an ambassador who served under two presidential administrations, a celebrity and spiritual teacher recently featured in the popular movie, "What the Bleep do we Know", a Yale graduate lawyer, a doctor of mathematics, a cetacean expert, several authors and several seemingly average citizens with world changing experiences to share for a conference open to the public? Ask the founder of the Hawaii based Exopolitics Institute, Dr. Michael Salla, and he will answer that center stage revolves around the issue of creating exopolitical peace strategies. But what is Exopolitics? It is the scholarly study of the political implications of an extraterrestrial presence here on Earth. Sound like science fiction, well, it is not and next June 9-11, 2006 in Kona, Hawaii, an impressively credentialed group will convene in a three day public event to present factual information on this topic of: Extraterrestrial Civilizations and World Peace. Although California traditionally takes the lead in pioneering paradigm shifting ideas, this time the Big Island of Hawaii is setting the stage for leadership and peace building concepts that explores entirely new territory. Recently at a Toronto conference the former Canadian Defense Minister, the Hon. Paul Hellyer, opposed the weaponization of space and stated that an American Airforce General had confirmed the factual nature of the book entitled,"The Day After Roswell" by ret. Col. Philip Corso. This book details the American government's knowledge of extraterrestrial visitors. Now out in the open, this issue of an extraterrestrial presence and the importance of peace strategies will be examined in a ground breaking series of presentations sponsored by the Exopolitics Institute. Conference tickets and more information about this event are available online at: http//:www.ETWorldPeace.com Ambassador John W. McDonald, Founder and Chairman for the Institute for Multi-Track Diplomacy will be a featured speaker. Also General Stephen Lovekin, US Army National Guard JAG division will address the conference. Other presenters include J.Z. Knight, founder of the Ramtha School of Enlightenment, Italian photo-journalist Paola Harris, Alfred Webre, JD, Director for the Institute for Cooperation in Space, Dr. Thomas Hansen who was the founder of the Peace Exchange Foundation, archeological scholar and author Neil Freer, local dolphin researcher Joan Ocean, French author of "The Science of Extraterrestrials", Jean Ederman, Mexican photographer and contactee Carlos Diaz, author and ECETI founder James Gilliland, channel Darryl Anka, Disclosure Witness ret. Capt. Robert Salas, researcher ret. Lt. Col. Wendelle Stevens and conference convener, Dr. Michael Salla, author of "Exopolitics", and President of the Exopolitics Institute. The Exopolitics Institute is a non-profit organization launched in July 2005 and based in Kealakekua, Hawaii, is dedicated to studying the key political actors, institutions and processes associated with credible evidence that extraterrestrial races are visiting, monitoring or residing on Earth. For more information about the Institute please visit: http//:www.ExopoliticsInstitute.org Contact: Angelika Whitecliff, Conference Co-organizer, at: 1-808-443-8412 or Communications.nul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Boone From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:05:50 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:09:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Boone >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:02:07 EST >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >Good Evening List, All - >So I'm watching Earth Vs The Flying Saucers yesterday and I >hear >one of the characters mention the "FOO" lights which is clearly >meant to be the FOO Fighters... and then explain that these >were >ionizations of the atmosphere... in other words, in a science >fiction movie that was made in 1956, they're talking about Phil >Klass' famous explanation for UFOs. I doubt if this is where he >found his explanation, but listening to the discussion in the >film reminded me of what Phil had once said. That movie scared my cousins to death when we were kids. It was bad enough their mom grew up near Roswell during '47 too. I don't know if anyone's come up with it or not, but from now on when I run into someone who attempts to debunk something without facts to put on the table, there's only one name I'm going to call them: Klasshole. Maybe one day it'll reach beyond ufology and end up in the mainstream and get into the dictionary.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:58:57 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:07:56 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 03:55:49 -0800 >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:26:07 EST >>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:56:02 -0500 >>>Subject: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>>Source: The Wichita Eagle - Wichita, Kansas, USA >>>http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/nation/13214050.htm >>>Sun, Nov. 20, 2005 >>>Psychologist: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>>By Richard Morin Washington Post >>>Accounts of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens >>>have one eerie similarity. >Hello Dave, Dave (and no doubt others..) >This is a perfect example of why I try to stay out of >psychological discussions. Now _that's_ just a touch dissembling, isn't it, Mr. Hatch, given Mr. Morton's very reasonable reaction to some of the most bilious tripe I've seen proposed since Dr. Clancy's last cognitive flatulence of cut and run? Put yourself in his shoes. Besides... C'mon! "Staying out of it" is in no way indicated by suggesting reasons, and bad ones at that, _why_ you stay out of it. I should think that better time could be spent wondering why Mr. Morin (...a name just crying out for abuse, huh?) will likely get a lot of mainstream _boost_ for his slap-dash little effort while the giants in the field can't get the time of day.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:30:57 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:11:49 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:04:14 -0800 >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>Source: The Wichita Eagle - Wichita, Kansas, USA >>http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/nation/13214050.htm >>Psychologist: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>By Richard Morin >>Washington Post >>Accounts of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens >>have one eerie similarity. >>When serious researchers like psychologist Frederick Malmstrom >>have asked self-proclaimed abductees what their out-of-this- >>world kidnappers looked like, they inevitably describe beings >>with large heads, big eyes, gray skin, smooth features, a barely >>visible or absent mouth and smallish bodies. >>Malmstrom, a visiting scholar at the U.S. Air Force Academy, now >>thinks he recognizes that face. It's Mommy - or at least the >>image of a "prototypical female face" that's hard-wired into a >>baby's brain and helps newborns instantly respond to their >>mothers. ><snip> >The wonderful thing about typical debunking is that it is so >ridiculously easy. There is no need to be consistent or even >slightly plausible. And that goes double for the HA psycho >branch of debunkery. It's like getting a PhD by sending off your >$75 to some Internet diploma mill. Why waste thousands of >dollars and years of your life by actually working to get the >real thing? Thank you David Rudiak! The Washington Post has done something I'd thought only some tabloid might achieve. Now with them publishing articles that are obviously a pathetic attempt at invalidating abductees, the Post has reached a new low in journalism. Ben Bradley is probably turning over in his grave. With the psych community pouring on the shmaltz to prevent people from taking a good look at the abduction phenom, I have a new theory: Psychiatrists and psychologists are aliens from another planet whose sole purpose is to take over a planet by driving it's inhabitants insane and then when the inhabitants fight back they get locked up. Jeez, our worst enemy in ufology ever, has and continues to be the psychiatric/psychological/media cabal. We just beefed about this for the past several weeks on this list and now another 'scientist' comes up with another knuckledragger of a theory. Why, I've a mind to come up with my own 'psychological' answers to alien abduction. Get me, I'm gonna make like one of them psych eggheads: 1. Abductees are suffering from 'cathode residual imagery'. Ever since television became widely used the alien abduction theories arose. Due to the fact that the old cathode ray tubes used in television sets left a residual image the brain interprets as 'alien' and as the viewer becomes swept up in the narrative of anything broadcasted, the unconscious mind believes it to be real, yet in this case the imagery resembles that of the typical 'grey' alien often reported. 2. People claiming to be alien abductees are actually recalling and reinterpreting genetic memory moments as ameoba who were eaten by other ameoba. If you notice the abductee is often 'absorbed' into a space ship and experimented on. Much like an amoeba being eaten or attempted to be eaten yet escapes carrying with it a rudimentary memory that passes along the DNA collective consciousness. 3. Stories of alien abduction occur due to introduction of carbohydrate chains often associated with a modern western diet. Alien abduction reports rose in direct ratio of new candie and soda pop introduced after WWII. These new chains and combinations cause no harm in regular people, but in some cases where the subject hasn't been eating a proper diet or resting, hallucinations can occur. 4. Excessive radiation especially electrical radiation is the core of these alien abduction experiences. As powerlines began to spread throughout industrialized nations and household appliances nearby, people with unstable imaginations interpreted the excess electrical energy in accordance with imagery from their unconscious minds as 'alien' thus giving birth to this new phenomena of alien abduction. See? With a little imagination and some ten-dollar words, anyone can come up with another lame-ass psychobabbled excuse to throw out their own debunking theory and then write a book or start a lecture circuit. Sheesh, when are we gonna get with it and realize our worst enemies as a species are the ones who swear up and down are here to help us? If the press fell for this malarkey, what else did they fall for? All the senior tele-journalists are retired now or dead with Ted Koppel following. The Bush regime did it's job swell didn't it?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 How Old Are You In 'Martian' Years? From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:41:10 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:13:21 -0500 Subject: How Old Are You In 'Martian' Years? How Old Are You In 'Martian' Years? NASA's Spirit 1 Mars Year Old http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/spirit/20051121.html At least on Mars you're half the age you are on Earth. So next time one of you 50 year-olds are asked by some hottie blonde chick how old you are, say you're 25 and then under your breath say 'on Mars'. Congrats to NASA for the rover missions.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 44 From: John Hayes <John.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:36:49 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:57:07 -0500 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 10 Number 44 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan.nul> ========================== Please note that UFO Roundup is still being published on an occasional basis. Unfortunately Joe is still without Internet access and his computer is too old to be upgraded. Joe is currently relying on a combination of library Internet access and the assistance of friends to get a bulletin published. This situation will last for some time as he is not able to afford a new computer at the moment. John @ UFOINFO [==========] UFO ROUNDUP Volume 10, Number 44 November 23, 2005 Editor: Joseph Trainor E-mail: Masinaigan.nul Website: http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/ UFO FLAP BREAKS OUT IN AUSTRALIA On Saturday, November 12, 2005, at 10:40 p.m., eyewitness John Law was lying in bed at his home in Christies Beach, near Adelaide, South Australia when he saw a strange light approaching "from just a little south of east." "I was awake in bed, watching the stars through my bedroom window," John reported, "When the object entered the frame of the window, it was at least as bright as the moon, glowing, slightly reddened, round, more than half the apparent diameter of the moon. No debris or smaller bits falling off." "It was moving at the same speed that satellites do, or perhaps a little slower. My bedroom has a door to the outside, so I was able to rush outside and to watch from my back yard for about a minute. My house got in the way when I was 5 meters (16 feet) from a 3-meter (10-foot) high wall and looking directly west." "I ran to a new position further south to get a better angle. The object had disappeared, probably behind a big cloud continuous to the horizon, which, for me, was the trees across the road." "I was able to see a real satellite due west and near a horizon not obscured by trees that was tracking slightly north of west. I think the satellite and the object were on parallel courses but well-separated. My interpretation is that this object was a near-miss spherical object touching the earth's atmosphere." "If it was 100 kilometers (60 miles) high, then simple trigonometry gives its diameter as half a kilometer (500 meters or 0.3 miles-J.T.)." "I called for other people to come, but they were too late." On Wednesday, November 9, 2005, at 12 noon, eyewitness Alice Briggs was in the yard of her home approximately one mile (1.6 kilometers) outside of Ipswich, Queensland, Australia, when she spotted a Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) F-111 fighter-bomber on final approach. Grabbing her camera, Alice "took this picture of an F-111 going over my house, which is very close to RAAF Amberley (air base)." "I did not see the object until I magnified the photo, and the object appeared in the photo. As there was only the one plane we were watching in the sky, I'm interested to know what you think." On Sunday, November 20, 2005, at 12:15 a.m., Brenda Hodgson, 71, was asleep in her bedroom in Ballarat, a city in Victoria state, Australia when she was awakened by strange lights flashing on the wall. "I live alone, am 71 years old, and this phenomena was very frightening," Brenda reported, "My bedroom was lit up with bright lights, almost blue in colour, and accompanied by tapping sounds about one second apart outside my bedroom window at about 12:15 a.m. It last for about two minutes, then stopped. It seemed almost like a laser beam or something of that nature." "Could this have been some sort of UFO? I have not reported it, as I did not know who to contact." (Email Form Reports) MORE UFOs SIGHTED OVER UK On Friday, November 11, 2005, at 9:25 p.m., eyewitness C.T. reported, "I was standing in the garden and looked up and saw an object about 10 feet (3 meters) above the trees. It was coming from the left of the house" in Bedford, UK. "It came over my head, curved, and flew over neighbouring houses to my right." "It was very low, metallic, slightly fluorescent-no lights and no noise. It was silvery metallic, slightly luminous, looked like three joined together, a bit like a boomerang. I only had six seconds to take it in." "It looked like three in perfect unison. I saw two black lines going through it. No noise. Definitely solid. I looked up and saw this massive thing coming over trees next to me, then over houses, then it was gone." The same day, a few hours earlier at 6:20 p.m., eyewitness Allan Ashton spotted a UFO in Haydock, near Wigan, from the south side of the motorway M6. "I saw a large comet-like object appear to the right of my windscreen (windshield in the USA-J.T.) about 1.5 miles above the M6 in Haydock, near Wigan, traveling at least 600 miles per hour (1,000 kilometers per hour- J.T.). This could have been a comet, or possibly a meteorite, but the object's speed seemed to be too consistent for it to have been either one." "I only caught a glimpse of the object before it disappeared into a cloud, as it was traveling so fast. I know there were other witnesses as this was reported on (BBC) Radio One by listeners to Judge-Jules. Apparently, they were inundated with calls from witnesses in the Northwest and Midlands. But I have neither seen nor heard anything in the media since." (Email Form Reports) BOOMERANG-SHAPED UFO SEEN IN TACOMA, WASHINGTON On Monday, November 14, 2005, at 6:30 p.m., eyewitness M.R. "was standing on my back porch on the south side of my house" in Tacoma, Washington (population 193,356) when she noticed something strange "approaching from the north." "It was a full moon or a nearly full moon, and the sky was clear," she reported, "But the moon was behind me to the northeast, and I am aware that Mars was visible next to the moon. What I saw was not a planet." "From behind me and over my head, a large boomerang- shaped object-like a fat boomerang or a V-shaped object- passed over my head. It was difficult to tell how high in the air it was, but I estimate that it was maybe several hundred to 1,000 feet in altitude. It had no lights and made no sound, but I noticed it because I could see it, and the movement above caught my eye. The bottom of it (the UFO) appeared convoluted/uneven on the surface and against the black sky it appeared dark grey. It did not hover but steadily moved across the sky." "No mention on the TV news. However, a co-worker told me she saw something strange in the sky at around the same time or slightly earlier the same evening." (Email Form Report) LUMINOUS UFO HOVERS OVER A HOME IN BUFFALO, N.Y. On Monday, November 14, 2005, at 4 a.m., eyewitness R.J. and her 14-year-old daughter were "on top of the porch, smoking a cigarette like we always do, because we don't smoke in the house" when they saw a bizarre object "standing still in the air." "I was sleeping," R.J. reported, "She called me and said, 'Mom, Mom, come here! Look at this!' So I did. I never ever believe in this kind of stuff, but I became a believer that night." "I saw a fluorescent type light, like a fluorescent light bulb. It had three colors-red, blue and silver flashing lights-on it. This was not a plane. It was not a planet. I know the difference. Once the sun came up, it was gone. This was a UFO." "I took two pictures of it with my cell phone, but they're not real clear. You do see the lights, however. Me and my daughter saw this together. It don't matter what anyone thinks or believes. I know! I'm a believer now." "I wanted to call, but I thought they would think I was crazy. Now I wish I had." (Email Form Report) TWO WHITE UFOs SPOTTED IN HOLLY, MICHIGAN On Saturday, November 12, 2005, at 7 p.m., eyewitness Kim Peters, was outdoors in her hometown of Holly, Michigan (population 6,135) when she saw a strange light in the eastern sky. "As I was looking up at the sky," Kim reported, "I saw the moon. It was kind of cloudy, so it had a fuzzy look at it. I then saw two white balls moving that were right by the moon. These objects were fuzzy also (Meaning they were above the clouds-J.T.). One was larger than the other, one behind the other, going in a quick but smooth motion, and disappeared." Kim described the UFOs as "white round balls." "I don't know about the speed," she added, "Maybe as quick as a shooting star, but this was a little slower." (Email Form Report) MYSTERIOUS GREEN LIGHT BEAM SEEN IN DUBLIN, OHIO On Saturday, November 12, 2005, at 10 p.m., eyewitness Conner Viers was outdoors with some friends in his hometown of Dublin, Ohio (population 31,392) when the group "spotted something strange" heading "right towards us." "We were looking right at it," Conner reported, "A green beam of light that looked like a thick straight line as it flew through the sky. It was very fast. A green thick line with little dots in it. We estimated that it was 10,000 to 20,000 feet (3,000 to 6,000 meters) up. Speed was too fast for us to tell. Very fast. And then it disappeared." Dublin is a suburb of Columbus, Ohio, the state capital. (Email Form Report) Well, that's it for this week. Join us next time for more UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-UFO Roundup." See you then! UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2005 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their Web sites or in news groups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan.nul> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://www.ufoinfo.com/submit/sightings.shtml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> UFOINFO: http://www.ufoinfo.com Home to UFO Roundup, Encounters With Aliens On This Day, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Humanoid Sighting Reports (Albert Rosales), Filer's Files, UFO News UK and more... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers. If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received the bulletin in error, please write to:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <greg.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:36:05 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:59:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism - Sandow >From: Cathy Reason <CathyM.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 21:50:13 -0000 >Subject: Re: Theory and Pragmatism It might have helped if Mr Sandow had explained what he meant >by "standard social science theory" and "standard social >science methodology". Is "standard social science theory" >some sort of comprehensive theory which unifies the whole of >the social sciences? If so then there is no such theory, that >I know of. <snip> >It probably is fair to say there is such a thing as "standard >social science methodology", but this is usually taken to >mean quantitative methodology, and to call this "standard" >completely ignores qualitative approaches such as participant >observation and ethnomethodology. While it's true that >qualitative approaches are very much open to abuse, when used >properly they are immensely valuable - Rosenhan's >pseudo-patient study, for example, could not have been done >by any sort of quantitative method. (This was the study in >which researchers infiltrated psychiatric hospitals, and >showed that psychiatric diagnosis could often have just as >much to do with context and clinical expectation, as with >patient-behavior.) I have enormous respect for Cathy Reason, and I'm happy to have her questions and qualifications. I certainly didn't make myself very clear, no doubt because this isn't my area of expertise. She's right - I should have said "standard social science methodology," not "standard social science theory." And I didn't even need the word "standard." I could just have said "social science methodology." My complaint against skeptics when they touch on social science is that as a rule they don't use any methodology at all. They just say things like, "Images of aliens have been on TV and are seen in the movies. Here's someone who claims to have seen an alien. This person was influenced by that imagery." It doesn't seem to occur to the skeptics that this assertion needs to be proved. Or even that it could be proved. As I understand it, social scientists (or at least sociologists) can't put forth hypotheses without also at least suggesting some way in which the hypotheses could be tested. I recall, a while ago, a startling theory that legalized abortion in the US had led to a lower crime rate, because there were fewer unwanted children (who presumably wouldn't be brought up as carefully as wanted kids). I recall quite a bit of discussion about how this hypothesis could be established. What data would you need to support it? What data might refute it? But we don't see any such thing in ufology. Phil Klass insisted at great length to me that UFO waves are caused by the media. He cited as evidence a story about bigfoot in the Washington Post, which, he said, had been followed by a rash of alleged bigfoot sightings in the Washington, DC area. It seems reasonable enough to assume (though it's only an assumption) that the story brought forth the sighting reports. Though - as poor Phil couldn't comprehend - that assumption leaves unanswered the further question of whether the story led people to imagine they saw bigfoot, or -having had the sightings previously - to come forward with reports. Phil naturally assumed the former. But even if the assumption is correct, and the news story did provoke the sighting reports, it's still a long stretch to say that UFO waves are caused by media stories. Phil simply assumed this had to be true, and no methodological questions troubled his thinking. What was especially annoying, in this conversation, is that I was happy to grant the likelihood that media stories would provoke sighting reports. But that's not at all the same thing as saying that the sighting reports wouldn't exist at all without the media. Phil - and other skeptics - are perfectly reasonable when they put forth these theories, as long as they understand that they're theories. To me (and maybe Cathy can show me that I'm wrong) the standard sociological move would then be to consider how the theory could be proved, or refuted. But the skeptics don't normally do that.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Re: Abductees In The Jail House - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:27:37 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:02:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Abductees In The Jail House - Balaskas >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 03:30:34 EST >Subject: Abductees In The Jail House >The abductee situation is full of stories but one that I have >had on the back burner for a long time is whether any abductees >had been or are incarcerated in jails/prisons. >Reason I bring this up is because I didn't ask the question but >a story was told to me by pals who are corrections officers at >the biggest prisons in the U.S. >We were chatting about everyday events one night and when >someone brought up the big triangle ships that just about >everyone had seen in the area, one of the fellows just bowed his >head and shook it and told me how he'd seen or heard of inmates >who had been abducted right from the prison! Two other guys >acknowledged this but it was funny that the abductors put them >right back into their cells! <snip> >So I was wondering if anyone had read or researched abductees >who were captured while incarcerated. Greetings Greg! According to our ET history, you will recall that there are many such cases mentioned in the Bible, a collection of ancient books containing a wealth of facts about UFOs and their occupants who originated from the heavens above. The few examples below are from 'Acts (of the Apostles)', a book which describe the struggles the early experiencers/believers had in sharing the ET message with the rest of the world. 18 They arrested the apostles and put them in the public jail. 19 But during the night an angel of the Lord opened the doors of the jail and brought them out. 20 "Go, stand in the temple courts," he said, "and tell the people the full message of this new life." Acts 5:18-20 (NIV) 5 So Peter was kept in prison, but the church was eanestly praying for him. 6 The night before Herod was to bring him to trial, Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains, and sentries stood guard at the entrance. 7 Suddenly an angel of the Lord appeared and a light shone in the cell. He struck Peter on the side and woke him up. "Quick, get up!" he said, and the chains fell off Peter's wrists. 8 Then the angel said to him, "Put on your clothes and sandals." And Peter did so. "Wrap your cloak around you and follow me," the angel told him. 9 Peter followed him out of the prison, but he had no idea that what the angel was doing was really happening; he thought he was seeing a vision. Acts 12:5-9 (NIV) 25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening to them. 26 Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken. At once all the prison doors flew open, and everybody's chains came loose. Acts 16:25- 26 (NIV) I personally know of Orthodox monks at many new monasteries throughout North America who have "left this world" and confine themselves in their "cells" whenever they are not prayering or in meditation. Visits by non-human entities (angels or demons?) in their cells are not uncommon occurrences. When a growing number of the those in U.S. prisons are not there for murders or thefts but because of their beliefs (including many who were falsely convicted), although we may have forgotten them, God has not. Jesus told his followers 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. ... 40 The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Matthew 25:36,40 (NIV) Sightings of UFOs and accounts of alien abdcutions are nothing new and they cannot be understood in isolation of history. Unless we are sincerely searching for answers and are willing to allow our beliefs to be challenged and possibly changed in light of these and many other facts that we have ignored or
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 22 Re: Project Paperclip Dark Side Of The Moon - From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:00:19 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:05:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Project Paperclip Dark Side Of The Moon - >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:35:14 -0800 >Subject: Re: Project Paperclip Dark Side Of The Moon >>From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:47:26 -0700 >>Subject: Project Paperclip Dark Side Of The Moon >>Source: BBC News - London, UK >>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4443934.stm >>Monday, 21 November 2005 >Hello Listertions, >I am a student of Aviation History. >I have asked, why, if the Germans held all this mysterious >Technology, didn't they in WWII erase Bomber Command and the >Mighty 8th from the the skies? Why didn't the Me 262's wipe out >the P-47s and P-51s? >Well, for one thing, sheer numbers. Another was vulnerablility >on takeoff and landing. >Does any one know that the Max Mach number was Higher in a P-47 >and a Spitfire than the 262? The Me 163, Mach = air velocity (V) / speed of sound at sea level (A) (762.2 mph) or M =V/A M = V / 762.2 -- Supermarine Spitfire Maximum Speed and altitude records in a 45- degree dive. M =V/A M = 606 / 762.2 M = 0.79 Supermarine Spitfire Mk.XIVe at altitude 450 mph (721 km/h) M =V/A M = 450 / 762.2 M = 0.59 -- MESSERSCHMITT ME 262A "SCHWALBE" Maximum speed: Mach 0.70 - 0.84 http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap11.htm 540 mph. M =V/A M = 540 / 762.2 M = 0.70 -- http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0198c.shtml Also important to note are the findings of Willy Messerschmitt who had designed the Me 262. Messerschmitt conducted a detailed series of wind tunnel and flight tests to determine the maximum speed his creation could achieve. Flight tests included a series of dives similar to that experienced by Hans Mutke. Messerschmitt concluded that the Me 262 could not exceed Mach 0.86 without becoming completely uncontrollable. Any higher Mach number would generate a nose-down pitch so strong that the pilot would not be able to overcome it. This pitch would constantly increase the plane's dive angle to the point that the aircraft would disintegrate under the negative g-loads. The Royal Aircraft Establishment in the United Kingdom later confirmed these findings during Britain's evaluation of the Me 262 after the war. The RAE found that the maximum safe speed that could be attained was Mach 0.84, and any higher speed would result in a fatal, uncontrollable dive from which recovery was not possible. M =V/A 0.84 = V / 762.2 V = 0.84 x 762.2 V = 640.248 mph Maximum speed -- Heinkel He 162 A-2 Maximum speed http://www.powersims.mcmail.com/mar162.htm 840 km/h (522 mph) at 6000 m (19,685 ft); M =V/A M = 522 / 762.2 M = 0.68 -- http://www.kotfsc.com/aviation/he-162.htm 522 mph (840 km/h) at 19,685 ft (6000 m); http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_162 900 km/h 562 mph M =V/A M = 562 / 762.2 M = 0.73 -- http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Heinkel_He_162 900 km/h 562 mph -- Supermarine Spitfire Maximum speed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire#Specifications Mk.Ia 363 mph (582 km/h) M =V/A M = 363 / 762.2 M = 0.476 -- Mk.Vb 378 mph (605 km/h) M =V/A M = 378 / 762.2 M = 0.495 -- LF.IXe: 331 mph (529 km/h) near the ground, 401 mph (642 km/h) at altitude M =V/A M = 401 / 762.2 M = 0.526 -- HF.IXe: 321 mph (514 km/h) near the ground, 414 mph (662 km/h) at altitude 450 mph (721 km/h) M =V/A M = 450 / 762.2 M = 0.59 -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire Speed and altitude records in a 45-degree dive. During the spring of 1944, high-speed diving trials were being performed at Farnborough to investigate the handling of aircraft near the sound barrier. Because it had the highest limiting Mach number of any aircraft at that time, a Spitfire XI was chosen to take part in these trials. It was during these trials that EN 409, flown by Squadron Leader Martindale, reached 606 mph (975 km/h) in a 45-degree dive. M =V/A M = 606 / 762.2 M = 0.79 -- Republic P-47 Thunderbolt Maximum speed http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47.htm 433 mph. M =V/A M = 433 / 762.2 M = 0.568 -- http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap9.htm NORTH AMERICAN P-51D "MUSTANG" Maximum speed 437 mph. M =V/A M = 437 / 762.2 M = 0.57 >while an engineering >tour de force, killed more of its pilots on landing than acutal >combat? All of this vaunted Nazi engineering didn't exsist. Existed to little too late. >Granted they had ideas, but no more so the Korolev, http://www.astronautix.com/astros/korolev.htm Members of the team began to be repatriated on 3 April 1951. By October 1951 they were completely isolated and work basically stopped. The last member of the group returned to Germany on 22 November 1953. Groettrup made it to West Germany and was debriefed by the CIA in 1957, but provided some deliberately false information and downplayed the importance of the German work in order to avoid Russian retribution. The full story did not come out until the end of the century. >Goddard, >Bell and Herman-Kelly Herman. >Goring would've put his own Mama in a Concentration Camp to get >UFO technology. Having had my own late father-in-Law, who was a >Tanker in Patton's 3rd, experience the first attack by jet >aircraft at Remagen Bridge, (mostly Arado 230 jet Bombers, some >262's). They _missed_ due to lack of training. Then the P-51's >came and shot them down on landing. >If the Nazi's had the technology why didn't they use it?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 23 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:52:33 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:51:57 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >Source: The Wichita Eagle - Wichita, Kansas, USA >http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/nation/13214050.htm >Sun, Nov. 20, 2005 >Psychologist: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >By Richard Morin >Washington Post >Accounts of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens >have one eerie similarity. >When serious researchers like psychologist Frederick Malmstrom >have asked self-proclaimed abductees what their out-of-this- >world kidnappers looked like, they inevitably describe beings >with large heads, big eyes, gray skin, smooth features, a barely >visible or absent mouth and smallish bodies. >Malmstrom, a visiting scholar at the U.S. Air Force Academy, now >thinks he recognizes that face. It's Mommy -- or at least the >image of a "prototypical female face" that's hard-wired into a >baby's brain and helps newborns instantly respond to their >mothers. EBK, List, The original article is featured in the Skeptic magazine Vol. 11, No 4 http://tinyurl.com/excpm Frederick V. Malmstrom: Currently Visiting Scholar for Honor, USAF Academy, CO (1999- present). Psychology supervisor (Ohio, retired): Orient Correctional Institution, London Correctional Institution, Chillicothe Correctional Institution 1990-1999. Ohio psychology license #4360. Lt Colonel (retired), USAFR (1957-1996). Two combat tours Vietnam. Former assistant professor of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 23 Re: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely - From: Rob Kritkausky <robkrit.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 14:09:36 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:08:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely - >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:03:59 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely >>From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 16:01:13 +0000 >>Subject: Re: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely >>>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 18:32:35 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Discovering Life On Other Planets Unlikely >>>>UW biology professor Peter Ward and UW astronomy professor >>>>Donald Brownlee believe discovering intelligent aliens on other >>>>planets is unlikely. In Rare Earth, a book the two co-authored, >>>>they say the conditions needed for complex life are so narrow >>>>that microbial life may be common, but complicated life in the >>>>universe is likely rare. >>>How can one evaluate probability on the basis of data on one >>>planet or one solar system? Throw dice? <snip> >>Brownlee and Ward's book, lookin g only "toward the campfire" >>can't see even what's likely in our little clearing, and totally >>ignores what might be out in the forest. >For a moment, let's set aside our own biases and personal beliefs >and deal only with the undisputed facts (not just very reasonable >assumptions and scientific deductions). We know of only one place >in their entire universe where intelligent life does exist. This >place is our own planet Earth (first important fact). In 1969 >Apollo 12 astronauts brought back the TV camera on Surveyor 3 >that had landed on the Moon in 1967. Back on Earth researchers >were surprised to find living streptococcus bacteria within this >TV camera! This was not the only time that micro-organisms >subjected to the vacuum, high levels of radiation and extreme >temperatures of space for long periods of time survived (second >important fact). Nick, I would agre e that microbial life certainly seems to be a bit heartier than we imagined. Also, I agree that assumptions are more dependable when based on fact rather than personal beliefs or one's inclination. >Now if we ever do find ET life or direct evidence of ET life >such as the alleged micro-fossils found in meteorites or in the >lunar soil samples brought back by Luna 16, etc.) and it is not >unlike what was once or is still found here on our planet, we >must conclude that this life originated here on Earth. Anything >more than this would be wishing thinking and not based solely on >scientific facts. I think recent research in astrobiology and similar fields actually has given me reason to think just the opposite. It is certainly the case that earth life turns out to be much more dynamic and adaptable th an we previously thought. More important, is the fact that the universe exhibits the interesting properties of supra-synchrony and supra-spontaneity. That is, there are cosmic processes which self-assemble in the presence of matter under certain conditions. These conditions are by no means rare or improbable. Furthermore, this organization appears to be geared toward the promotion of (or evolution toward) bio-genesis. It would seem our solar system and to no lesser extent the universe, has been hard-wired for life. In addition, there have been several studies on impact mechanics that show that the ejecta produced by impacts that happens to escape a gravity well, does so at an angle that makes it highly unlikely to ever interact with the host body again. That being s aid, I think that there are several organisms on earth such as Pedomicrobium that are prime candidates for an extraterrestrial origin.(this is my opinion) In addition, from the photos I've seen and from the type and quantity of research being done by NASA in certain areas, I'm pretty convinced that NASA believes there is life on Mars in the form of bacteria in rock varnish. Regards, Rob Kritkausky
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 23 Newspaper Withdraws Colin Andrews Article From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:07:33 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:39:42 -0500 Subject: Newspaper Withdraws Colin Andrews Article ----- Original Message ----- From: Matthew Williams To: Matthew Williams Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 2:11 PM Subject: Fw: 'Western Daily Press' withdraw the lies in Andrews article and block readers comments . ----- Original Message ----- From: Colin Andrews To: Colin Andrews Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 12:42 AM Subject: 'Western Daily Press' withdraw the lies in Andrews article and block readers comments . Updated at 1900 hrs, U.S. Eastern time on 20th November, 2005 British Newspaper Forced To Remove Lies And Distortions About Colin Andrews The British Newspaper 'Western Daily Press' have been forced to remove lies and distortions about Colin Andrews that they published in the newspaper on the 15th of November 2005 and posted on their web site. Colin Andrews, one of the original and most credible researchers in the field of crop circle research is moving his attention onto his concerns for the environment and offering his complete twenty two year body of research for sale. It was his decision to make the database and archives available for sale that lead the newspaper to make a final attack his character. The original story was removed first thing Saturday morning the 19th November after Andrews spoke with the editorial staff late on the night of the 18th. Legal steps are being considered for the coming week. The original version has now been substituted with a new version, and without any explanation or apology. Also they have posted just one reader comment and blocked all new ones, although it is known that they have received many. http://tinyurl.com/bfc3s The original link with many messages of support for Andrews, received from around the world, have also been removed and substituted with an empty screen. I guess in these days of sloppy and biased journalism it's expecting just a little too much for even the 'Western Daily Press' to say sorry. That said, credit to them for removing the lies. Details about the database and the E-Bay auction can be
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 23 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Lan Fleming <lfleming6.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:06:15 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:43:17 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:04:14 -0800 >Fwd Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 06:46:42 -0500 >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Date: Monday, November 21, 2005 11:56 AM >Subject: UFO UpDate: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>Source: The Wichita Eagle - Wichita, Kansas, USA >>http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/nation/13214050.htm >>Psychologist: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>By Richard Morin >>Washington Post <snip> >>Malmstrom says the answer has to do with another familiar >>feature of alien-abduction accounts. Virtually all of the cases >>considered credible enough to study occurred when the abductees >>reported they were either falling asleep, or they were >>"remembered" while the subject was under hypnosis. >As most of us know, this is another lie and more propaganda. A >large percentage of abduction accounts occur with the person >wide awake and are recounted without hypnosis. Those are probably the cases that Malmstrom has decided lack credibility, since they conflict with the hypothesis that's getting him publicity in the Washington Post. The Post would certainly not print anything that pointed out any inconvient facts conflicting with editorial policy. A paper that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 23 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:54:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:47:24 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:30:57 EST >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:04:14 -0800 >>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother .>>Source: The Wichita Eagle - Wichita, Kansas, USA >>>http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/nation/13214050.htm >>>Psychologist: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>>By Richard Morin >>>Washington Post >>>Accounts of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens >>>have one eerie similarity. >>When serious researchers like psychologist Frederick Malmstrom <snip> >>The wonderful thing about typical debunking is that it is so >>ridiculously easy. There is no need to be consistent or even >>slightly plausible. And that goes double for the HA psycho >>branch of debunkery. It's like getting a PhD by sending off your >>$75 to some Internet diploma mill. Why waste thousands of >>dollars and years of your life by actually working to get the >>real thing? >Thank you David Rudiak! >With the psych community pouring on the shmaltz to prevent >people from taking a good look at the abduction phenom, I have a >new theory: >Psychiatrists and psychologists are aliens from another planet >whose sole purpose is to take over a planet by driving it's >inhabitants insane and then when the inhabitants fight back they >get locked up. >Jeez, our worst enemy in ufology ever, has and continues to be >the psychiatric/psychological/media cabal. We just beefed about >this for the past several weeks on this list and now another >'scientist' comes up with another knuckledragger of a theory. This modern psycho-debunking is just an extension to abductees of an earlier debunking of "plain vanilla" UFO/saucer sightings. In the American Asociation for the Advancement of Science debate published in 1970(?) there is a paper by Lester Grinspoon and ( ) Persky in which they argue that saucer shapes result from childhood memories of breasts (domed disc, etc. - look at the McMinnville object with the pole on the top - and cigar-shaped UFOs were childhood memories of... well, you guessed it. Freudian psychology can solve the mystery of saucer sightings. Grinspoon and Persky did not attempt to psychoanalyze radar sets or cameras, so I guess they would have to admit they didn't solve all the sightings.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 23 The Linda Moulton Howe Interview - Part II From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:53:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:53:34 -0500 Subject: The Linda Moulton Howe Interview - Part II Source: Phenmomena Magazine http://tinyurl.com/7co4m November 23, 2005 In Her Own Words: The Linda Moulton Howe Interview The Conclusion By: Stuart Miller Phenomena News Editor Stuart Miller concludes his in depth interview with Linda who talks at length and with passion about cattle mutilations and what they're about and what they're not about, her career, Rick Doty, her critics, the Government. Linda speaks openly and frankly and this interview reveals her professionalism and commitment. SM: I'm very interested in what happened a short time after A Strange Harvest was broadcast. Am I right in thinking that you drew some flack from some elements of the Intelligence services who were not happy with the exposure that you gave this subject? LH: That didn't surface until the HBO special that I left channel 7 to do for Home Box Office in 1983. And from 1983 to 1986, I got a real dose of how governments can make your life miserable when you are pushing against things they don't want out. Between the broadcast in 1980 and the signing of the contract with Home Box Office on March 21st. 1983, in those three years I was doing astronaut training in Colorado, I was doing radioactive water looking at uranium contamination of a water supply of a suburb of Denver, I was doing news, I was doing a whole lot of other things but, there was this parallel track that never stopped. After the broadcast, the mail was bringing brought in, in huge mailbags. The switchboard couldn't keep up with all of the phone calls. It was as if I had touched the hottest spot on the planet in terms of reaction coming not just from the United States but from literally around the world. Everybody saying, "I've never told anybody this before..." And it was a black helicopter that dissolved, a black helicopter that changed shape, a beam of light that came down over cows in a pasture, the red pulsing light a rancher who was out in his trailer watching animals saw that scared the living daylights out of him, and the next day they had a mutilated animal. All of these stories started coming in. The jump cut, if you want to say, from that explosion that didn't stop, put me into this parallel track. I'm doing all of this other work and then I'm doing the animal mutilation work to the best of my ability because the general manager said, "Linda, I know it's an important story and I know you're getting so much information and I end up getting an Emmy and other awards for that show as well, but you can't keep doing animal mutilations." That's when you work for somebody, then management has the right to say that. So I'm doing all this other work but I'm also trying to keep up privately, in my own time and with my own money with what is happening in the animal mutilation story. And eventually HBO came to me at the station and said to me, "We'd like to discuss contracting with you to do an hour beyond A Strange Harvest". They proposed the title; UFOs - The ET Factor and the rest is history as I have documented it in the book An Alien Harvest about exactly what happened. It's my understanding now, looking back, that it was a convergence. The government was keeping track of what I was doing but, remember, I kept on doing all these other stories and I was doing the animal mutilation research privately. I did a few news stories and I was allowed to do an update a year later, I think, or something like that, but I couldn't just keep doing animal mutilation reports. The station just didn't want it. So when HBO came to me, I already had such an enormous amount of private information that it made sense to me to do it and that's why I left the station and signed their contract. Well apparently, I was being watched and monitored in those three years between =9180 and =9183 and when whoever the spies were learned that I had signed the contract with HBO in New York and I was setting off now to do a national hour for Home Box Office, alarm bells went off and the fix was in; She's got to be stopped. And that was the whole Richard Doty/AFOSI story that I tell in great detail in Alien Harvest. SM: That Doty episode you regard as an attempt to stop you. LH: Oh yeah, to me, there's no question about it. Did I know that when I met there at the AFOSI office in Albuquerque on April 9, 1983? No. It was a meeting that was very important. People for some reason constantly ignore and eliminate the context and the time line of events and if you take away context and time line, then you are not anywhere near the truth. The context of the meeting at Kirtland Air Force base, Air Force Office Of Special Investigations was a meeting set up by Peter Gersten, New York attorney, the same attorney who had filed the very first Freedom of Information act law suit against the Central Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency, the Defence Intelligence Agency, the National Reconnaissance Organisation and other alphabet soup intelligence agencies in the United States. He was also the first attorney to use the very first FOIA that emerged in the second half of the 70s to try to extract UFO information from their files on behalf an organisation called Citizens Against UFO Secrecy. Barry Greenwood and Larry Fawcett ran that organisation. Larry Fawcett was a police officer in Connecticut. They had their own experiences, they knew that they were dealing with phenomena. They worked with Peter Gersten and this was a case that went all of the way to the Supreme Court of the United States and in camera, which was a private conversation between the judge and the lawyers, pieces of paper were released, and this is actually funny in retrospect. The lawyer had pushed so hard because, why? He would file to the NSA for all information concerning UFOs, unidentified flying objects, any acronym, any word, any phrase that would include the category of these flying discs. And he would get back a letter response from the NSA saying "We have no files but our records show that the CIA has 163". He'd go to the CIA and the CIA would send back a letter saying, "We have no files but our records show that the NSA has 21". And he got all of these letters, each one pointing a finger at another agency. This was how Gersten took this case to the Supreme Court, using the replies of the agencies fingering other agencies and it was on the strength of all of that that they had this in camera session because it came down to all of these agencies, fingered in all of this correspondence saying that it was in the interests of national security of the United States of America that these documents could not be released that were referenced by each other. And that was where, out of that FOIA suit, that it was forced out from all of those agencies all of those pages that were blacked out. These are pages that Stanton Freidman originally used in his presentation showing all of these solid black pages of a subject that is not supposed to exist. SM: I'm curious about one thing; why is Peter Gersten, who, to put it into simple, childish language, appears to be a good guy because he's pressing the government to release information that they don't want to release, involved in setting up a meeting with you and Rick Doty in Albuquerque? LH: How did it come about? I think, remembering back to that period, I think it was Larry Fawcett. Larry and I knew each other and also Budd Hopkins. Budd's book Missing Time had come out almost identically to mine. It was as if we were on parallel tracks. He was doing human abductions and I was doing animal mutilations. Harvest was broadcast for the first time on, I think, May 28th 1980 and Budd's book came out I believe at approximately the same. Budd Hopkins lived in Manhattan, Larry Fawcett lived in Connecticut, I'm out in Denver, Colorado. My film is broadcast, and it was like a bomb went off. So all of us became aware of each other at the same time in 1980. I was asked to present A Strange Harvest at the MUFON meeting in Houston I think June or July, 1980. And that's where I met for the first time a lot of these people who had been doing their own investigations. So between 1980 and March 21st 1983, in those three years I was in conversation with an awful lot of people about animal mutilations, human abductions, government knowledge cover up. So by that time it was no secret to those guys on the East Coast that I was at HBO doing this contract and I think it was very logical at the time, with people that I knew that Peter Gersten had contacted me and suggested getting together for dinner, which is what he proposed, with Patrick Huyghe, a writer, and the three of us had dinner in New York the night of the day I signed the contract with HBO. It was the most logical thing in the world. They were doing most of the hard investigation and I now have the challenge of doing an hour for HBO that can be based on the hardest evidence possible. =46rom his brief case Gersten pulled out correspondence from an air force officer, special investigations special agent named Richard C. Doty. And he shows me this correspondence and says, "This guy in Kirtland says that he has eye witnesses to a landing and an encounter between military security and beings coming out of a disc at Ellsworth air force base. We want to investigate it. Would you be interested in covering it?" Of course! He went on, "I will set up the meeting with Richard Doty who's been corresponding with us about this incident and you go and get the names of the eye witnesses and we will follow up, I as an attorney for Citizens Against UFO Secrecy. We will set up an itinerary of meetings in the area of Ellsworth and you can come with your crew and follow our investigation." That was what I wanted to do, follow a real investigation. It made perfect sense. The date and the time was set up with Richard Doty and I flew to Albuquerque as part of my development of the project and on April 9th 1983, I just thought I would be there for 15 minutes, get names and phone numbers and addresses and then go on my way to many other things that I had scheduled. Instead there was this astonishing presentation to me, taken from the draw of the table that Doty was sitting at, saying his superiors had asked him to show this to me, that I could not take notes but could ask him questions, and he redirected me to move from the chair I was sitting in while he handed me pages that he had been taking out of a manila envelope, of the Presidential briefing on UFOs. That was a turning point. Up until that moment of handing me an alleged briefing paper for the President of the United States of unidentified aerial craft, with all of the stuff that was in those pages, I was just doing what I'd always been doing. SM: What was going through your mind as you sat there reading it? LH: I was astonished, I was absolutely astonished and I said that to Doty and I wrote about this in the book. "Why are you showing this to me? Why aren't you showing this to 60 Minutes and the New York Times?" You know what his answer was? "They're enemies. They are considered enemies of the government." The bottom line was, I wasn't a complete na=EFve innocent standing there. What came across my mind then was, "Oh, it's much easier to take an independent producer and manipulate them then it is to the deep pocketed legal fees of the New York Times and 60 Minutes". Later on though, this is very important, this is another very important bead on the time line, I am astonished by what I read. I asked questions. When I left Albuquerque, I don't have any physical paper with me, I'm not given anything. I have what is in my mind and I wrote down copious notes that night in a notebook that I still have about what I had read. If their intention, and I believe it was their intention, looking back, that I would immediately run out to somebody, a TV station, a radio station or a newspaper and say, "Oh my god, this is what I've been shown at Kirtland", well, that's not my style. It may be others but that's not what I did. And I was totally silent. I even met with other researchers a few days later on another issue and I never said anything even to them. I had a responsibility, as a contracted producer, to communicate with HBO, and I did. I'm talking with Jean Abanater who was director of documentaries for HBO and I tell her about the meeting on the phone. Remember that the phone was one of the major ways that the government learned information and always has. I have to talk with HBO. I do not have endless resources to get on an airplane for private meetings. I talk with her on the phone with what I've been shown and I've been told that the government of the United States understands that I am working on this documentary for HBO and that they want me, to screen, at a private location on the East Coast, 600 feet, I think that's what they said, of film that had been taken at Holloman air force base when three craft not from Earth landed in a pre- arranged meeting for an exchange with our government, and the date I was given was April 25th 1964, and that it tied in to the Lonnie Zamora case and a whole bunch of things. And I'm telling her this and I said, "If I'm going to be given this kind of film for this HBO project, then this is becoming a much bigger deal then when I was in your office three weeks ago", and she agreed. She said, "Linda, if any of this is going to happen, we have to sit down with Michael Fukes and Bridget Potter (senior execs at HBO). We are going to have to have a meeting with them." And I understood because if we're moving into that kind of territory, well up to then the government had insisted that there were no UFOs and that we were alone in the Universe and they are sitting on film that they now want to drop into my lap that would be saying, "Yes, extraterrestrials have been here, they've gone" it was a whole other order. She wanted executives to understand where this was headed. I went back to New York in May but between the meeting in Kirtland and the meeting in New York which I think was May 18th, I have correspondence and copies to Richard Doty at AFOSI saying "I must have a letter of some sort, on a letterhead, confirming your intention of sharing film with me for this HBO project so I can present it at HBO." This was the only professional tack anybody could take. And the upshot of it was, I went to the meeting, I had left phone messages at the only phone number I had for Doty saying I would be in New York for this meeting, if this project is to go forward, I must have some letter of commitment, and of course, nothing. And Bridget Potter said, "I would never authorise funds for the project that you have now described to me unless you could bring to me the President of the United States, the Vice President, the Secretary of Defence and the Joint Chiefs of Staff to back you up." The government of the United States must have anticipated that that would be the response of executives at Home Box Office and that comes back to your other question. Why is it that all of these events that are taking place on this planet on a regular basis that fall into the category, sometimes dangerous, sometimes mysterious phenomenon that include global animal mutilations, and they are never covered because no one wants to be politically incorrect. No one wants to suffer being cut off from whatever they consider to be their "inside political sources". No one wants to have a black hole of research open up in front of them which may cost them millions of dollars. To finalise this piece on the last 26 years that has really astonished me, I had a close and good friend in an executive position at the ABC network in New York. This was after all of the disintegration at HBO with Bridget Potter saying that I had to bring to her essentially the administration of the United States. I felt that I wanted to try to keep going to tell the story through whoever and however I could. And I met with this executive and I showed him what I had and some of it was quite strong. This was a really good friend, not somebody who was going to yank a chain. I laid out the story and I was saying, "Would you hire me to produce this?" And he sat back in his chair and he said, "Linda. The entire ABC network does not have the money to take on the story that you're outlining because you're talking about going up against the United States government." SM: Do you think that the Holloman air force base film actually exists? LH: Absolutely. I've talked to many more than one person who have seen it. SM: Because it's been dangled before other people before and since, and yet at the last moment, it's always just pulled back. LH: Yes, because the government has now learned, by person by person by person, including Robert Emmenager and Jacques Vallee and others and Linda Howe. The government has to deal with professionals. A professional has a certain work ethic and you always report to your superiors who are funding you, what you are about to do. That stops projects. In the Emmenager case, he was working with a guy who worked for the CIA. They really thought they were getting the film. I know both and have talked to them. And it gets jerked at the last minute and what happens? The credibility of the project that you were working on with whatever the company, the network, the production company, it doesn't matter what it is, the credibility of the producer and the project goes down if you can't produce what has been promised. And they know it. SM: So they're in a win/win situation. You keep it internal but you work to professional standards and eventually you're going to be asked, "If we're going ahead with this project we need something a lot harder." You're unable to produce it because you get no response to phone calls etc. Or alternatively, if you'd rushed out of Albuquerque and started shouting about and writing about everything you'd just read and what had happened, you'd be made to look foolish then as well. LH: Absolutely. They have it down to a science from everything they did in World War 1 and World War 2. We're not dealing with foolish people. We're dealing with intelligence operations that came through the OSS. You're government, MI5 and MI6=85. SM: I know, we taught you how to do it. LH: Exactly. And so any reporter and any producer worth their salt who tries to take on a really, really difficult complex subject that is outside the balance of what your government or my government or any government has said that it doesn't exist, you're going to be hurt some way or another. SM: The pattern seems to be, and it's fairly obvious now, somebody writes a book or produces a documentary, you've mentioned yourself, Emmanager, Whitley Schrieber and others. LH: Don't forget Jacques Vallee. SM: Yes, he was approached too. Your head rises above the parapet, you start attracting a great deal of national or even international publicity and it almost seems to be a case of "We're going to swot you back down." LH: Well in my case, my answer was my silence and the fact that the subject that started me off on this investigation in the first place was animal mutilations. And so, my answer to everything that happened after the HBO meeting was to continue to do what I can, independently because I had left the station, and I took on work to do a whole bunch of different projects. So now I'm living as an independent producer and I have this huge, huge other story that I know is real and that the world in general is either scared of or doesn't have the guts to take it on. So how do I keep it going? Well, my answer to myself was, just keep going out into the field and keep doing investigations, forensic investigations on the animals with whoever will help. That is the strength. There was nothing about Richard Doty or anybody in the government that I as an independent producer needed in order to keep on investigating animal mutilations. They were happening and all you had to do was find somebody with medical expertise who would work and help in trying to look at the issue and report about it. So that's what I did. To me, the important contribution of my work, after doing A Strange Harvest was all the field work that got reported in the book and documentaries and TV segments and radio work I've done since, as well as my web site, Earthfiles. There is a gigantic amount of research and information dealing with hard evidence. It exists, it has never been challenged and I don't think there is any real resistance any more to the fact that animal mutilations continue and are highly strange, even if there is still not a government on the planet that will stand up at a microphone and say, "We are dealing with extraterrestrial biological entities" You instead get the words, "Unusual phenomena" or "Peculiar Phenomena" or "Peculiar" or "unusual animal deaths" and that is an enormous story that links to the lie that we're alone in the Universe. We're not. SM: Do you think, do you believe, that we will ever be told? LH: The question before that question is; when is it in the interests of governments to acknowledge that they have lied? SM: Very, very rarely, if ever. LH: And therefore the question as to when will this will be laid out in all of its gory detail to the world, well I don't know of any current administration where that would serve a purpose and that means that it may go on perhaps for another generation. But always waiting in the wings is the question, why is it, that whatever this is, what our own military people who served in World War 2 refer to as Extraterrestrial Biological Entities, why does it seem to be in the interests of that to remain silent? Anything that has the ability to pluck animals out of pastures around the world and return them bloodless and baffle veterinarians and pathologists has the ability to literally do the old clich=E9 and set down on the White House Lawn, in your country, anywhere. It has the ability to appear around the world and say, "Here we are" and it never does it. Why? That makes me nervous, frankly. Why is it that silence and obscurity seems to be serving two sides, the government side and the non-human intelligence side? SM: That's interesting because you open up a lot of doors with that. The implication, the conclusion from that statement is that there is an agreement. LH: Or an agenda on which both sides have decided that silence and obscurity serves both of them. As a human on this planet, for my entire life I have only had one goal and that it to try and understand facts and report them honestly and when you realise that your own government has come to the conclusion that it is not in the interests of national security to report anything about any of it truthfully makes me nervous. What are the agendas? What are the real agendas? SM: And presumably the conclusion is, it cannot be positive. LH: I just don't know. But I would say that the deeper you get into this, if you would read An Alien Harvest Glimpses Volume 1 and Volume 2 and call me back, I can pretty much say to that you will have encountered real, documented facts that will leave you wondering, "What in the world is the big picture here?" SM: What do you think of Ufologists? The reason I ask that question is that I am very aware that you do speak at a large number of Ufological conferences=85 LH: As an investigative reporter, I've investigated subjects for radio, television, books and now my web site. I'm not a Ufologist and I don't even know what that word means. SM: Sorry Linda, I wasn't saying that you were one=85 LH: But I don't know that anybody could even say there was a definition because when you come to this strange, squirly phrase, Unidentified Flying Objects, it has been, without question, one of the tacks on the part of the mis-informers to make the acronym and the words be loaded down with so much ridicule baggage that anybody who associates themselves with those words is loading themselves down with ridicule baggage. That's why it's self defeating to keep trying to put these gigantic subjects inside of those little words that have been dismissed and that is why I won't do it and I think it is a disservice to anybody who is trying seriously to look at the facts of what's happening on the planet. That's an acronym that goes back 60 years. SM: OK, I take your point and I'll rephrase the question. Would it be right to say that you attract more criticism from people interested in the subject of Ufology than in any other subject that you're interested in? LH: Am I criticised? Yes, although I don't know exactly why because I think my work speaks for itself. SM: That's really what I was getting at when I asked what you think of Ufologists. I accept you don't care for that term, and so on but it does seem to me that people are always sniping. LH: Well where would you say in your summary, what is the nature of the strongest sniping against me that you have heard? SM: It's basically professional in the sense that you've carried on with somebody, investigating them when to the people criticising you, it's been obvious that the game is up. I'm thinking of Burisch for example. LH: Oh that's a very, very complex subject and there are lots and lots of noise and attacks and there is still tremendous confusion about the Dan Crane/Dan Burisch story and it's going to be very interesting to see what George Knapp does. Are they Grifters? Maybe but Linda Howe recorded what was available from a man who just started speaking about his experience in Area 51 that people that I knew, off the record, said he was describing something that is real. And the first reports that I did, which were long before the bankruptcy, and I was the first one to report on that, when you go back again, time line and context, why is it that people will not look at things as they were evolving and emerging? The Dan Burisch story never has been and never will be simple. The guy is very, very odd. There are many odd things. And what is the reason that this Dan Burisch began speaking the way he did in 2003. What is the real reason? Is it part of another OSS/CIA/MI5/MI6 misinformation campaign? Is it wrong for you, for me, for anybody who is in the media to report and interview a man who is making these claims? Sure I did a lot of research about his background and found many things that gelled. Some things that didn't. Alright, why should I be lambasted for doing interviews with somebody that everybody was interested in? I do sometimes feel that if people were to put themselves in my shoes and the path that I have walked the last 26 years and what I have seen, and the foulness of how humans conduct themselves and the bashing of real stories that get close to the truth, I ask, who is doing this bashing? The bottom line is, Linda Moulton Howe can only do one thing; I put one foot in front of the other as I have for my entire life. I don't work for somebody, I'm not paid by some government. I'm actually trying to report facts. That's all I have ever done. I get bashed for that because there are a hell of lot of ulterior motives out there? Well, that's the world we're living in but it's not going to change me. It's not going to change what my perspective is in trying to report the facts. The facts may change and I will report changes in facts but no reporter existing can do other than that. You cannot anticipate the depths of deception of government. You just simply have to do the best you can to find facts and report them. SM: If you don't stick your neck out, you never get anywhere. LH: Yeah. You know, what can I tell you? If you were here for a week, I think that you would realise, that this is a really straight forward human being who works really damned hard, I love reporting, I love exploring the world and that's what makes me tick. I try to do as honest a job as I can and there are so many, many people now who want to destroy other people for reasons that are not clear and their numbers seem to increase. SM: I agree with you. Can I turn to what I hope is a happier subject. In 2003 you came to the UK. Am I right in thinking you spoke at the Glastonbury Symposium? LH: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was two years ago and I think it was the second or third time I've spoken there. SM: Am I right in thinking you took the opportunity to get round to some of the ancient sites? I've seen a picture of you standing in front of some stones somewhere. LH: I started going to England doing crop circle investigations in '92 and I was in England in '92, '93, '95, '97, '99, 2000. I think I was there in the summer of 2001 then 2003. SM: I hadn't realised you'd been here so often. LH: If you read my books (laughing again), my crop circle book is a series of stories from Linda Howe's journalistic point of view starting back in 1992 and the evolution of formations and a lot of the underlying themes that are there in the crop circles, and it's a book I think you'd find valuable. SM: Do you think the there is a connection between crop circles and animal mutilations? LH: In October 2005 I would find it hard to imagine that the same intelligence is responsible for both. I guess that's as honest a way as I can say. I don't know. I just know that there seems to be a profound intelligence working in mathematical ways that has astonished some mathematicians I've talked to, in the crop formations. The animals seem to be repulsive while the crop circles are beautiful. SM: Yes, one does have that contrast. Linda, I am going to read your books!! Thank you. Linda's web site is at www.earthfiles.com. Her books can be purchased from Linda's site at the Shop. -----
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 23 Mormon Mesa UFO Hot Bed From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:57:16 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:57:16 -0500 Subject: Mormon Mesa UFO Hot Bed Source: KLAS-TV Las Vegas, Nevada, USA http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4157195 Nov 23, 2005 Mormon Mesa: UFO Hot Bed George Knapp Investigative Reporter Nevada has long been a hotbed of UFO tales largely because our state is home to the Area 51 military base. But the eyes of the UFO world were on Southern Nevada even before Area 51 existed. A place called Mormon Mesa was alleged to be an UFO landing spot. And one man says he talked to ET's many times on the mesa. What is the flying saucer? Why do people see them? What's behind the daily reports all over the country?" The first great saucer waves of the late 40s and early 50s created a UFO hubbub that has never been matched. The nation had its eyes to the skies as it pondered the motives of the alleged visitors. With the Cold War as a backdrop, many worried about an ET invasion. In the midst of the hysteria, the so-called contactees emerged, people like George Adamski, who claimed frequent, peaceful encounters with the saucer people. Adamski's popularity inspired similar claims, including those of Truman Bethurum, a California highway worker who in 1952 went to work near Glendale, Nevada. An hour north of Las Vegas is a vast plateau known as Mormon Mesa. It's flat as a pancake and stretches for miles. The late Howard Hughes thought it would make for a dandy airport. Truman Bethurum says it was a landing strip of sorts. He claimed to have witnessed several UFO landings on Mormon Mesa, which he wrote about in a series of books. One account describes eleven visitations to Mormon Mesa in the early 50s. The first time it happened, he says, he got off work late at night and went to the top of the mesa, which was once a seabed, to search for fossilized shells. After taking a nap, he awoke to find himself surrounded by little people. In that first incident atop Mormon Mesa, Bethurum said he encountered 8 to 10 alien beings. They were between four and five feet tall, had olive skin that made them look like Italians, he said, wore uniforms similar to what's worn by Greyhound bus drivers, and they all spoke perfect English. Eventually, Bethurum said he was allowed to go inside the 300- foot flying saucer, which is where he met the captain of the ship, Aura Rhanes, whom he described as, quote, "tops in shapeliness and beauty." Aura told Bethurum all about her planet Clarion and its utopian virtues and hinted that we earthlings should clean up our act. When asked if there was no disease or death on Clarion, Truman Bethurum said, "They did not mention death. The woman captain said she expected to be around for 1,000 years. When the right time comes they would have a message to help us, with not one nation against another, but all nations together. Strife will not be a reality for very long." Although Bethurum's tale caused quite a stir, Mormon Mesa did not become a place of pilgrimage for UFO believers, as Area 51 did decades later. Eventually the contactees like Bethurum faded from public view, their stories of benign aliens replaced by darker tales of alien abductions. Other than his books, Bethurum never tried to cash in, and he admitted to the end it was a tough tale to swallow. Bethurum said, "I would not have believed my own mother if she had told me this thing could exist one second before I saw it. I would have laughed at her."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 23 December 9 Marks Kecksburg's 40th From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:03:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:03:30 -0500 Subject: December 9 Marks Kecksburg's 40th Source: Stan Gordon's Website http://www.westol.com/~paufo/kecksburg/anniversary.htm KECKSBURG - December 9, 2005 marks the 40th anniversary of the Kecksburg UFO incident. Expanded media coverage is expected as well as special events. Check back to this page as we cover this event and report new findings and opinions.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 23 Bob Pratt Passes From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:20:29 -0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:32:09 -0500 Subject: Bob Pratt Passes This is a very sad note. Bob Pratt, a great UFO researcher and a good friend, died last Saturday, November 19th. His death is a great loss for Ufology worldwide. Last Friday, Bob had a heart attack and by Saturday, he was gone. There will be a memorial service on Friday afternoon at his town, Lake Worth, Florida. Bob was a distinguished American writer, UFO researcher and journalist who was co-author of Night Siege: The Hudson Valley UFO Sightings, with J. Allen Hynek, and the author of UFO Danger In Brazil, translated and published here as Perigo Alien=EDgena no Brasil. It is very probable that no other foreign UFO researcher had more knowledge about the Brazilian Ufology as Bob Pratt. He had been to Brazil 13 times and was the kind of field investigator that really went to where the facts were to be researched. He helped a lot the Brazilian UFO researchers to best evaluate the dramatic incidents of alien attacks in the Northeast of the country and in the Amazon. Bob's interest in UFO Phenomena began when working for the National Enquirer, and was sent to many countries to investigate UFO sightings and ET contacts, such as Argentina, Bolivia, Canada, Chile, Japan, Mexico, Peru and Puerto Rico. Since 1975, he interviewed over two-thousand witnesses, many of them in Brazil. Bob wrote articles for several UFO and non-UFO magazines. He was, for several years, the editor of the renowned MUFON UFO Journal.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 23 Hypnosis Gets Positive Recognition From: William Wise <will.nul> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:37:16 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:35:42 -0500 Subject: Hypnosis Gets Positive Recognition Source: The New York Times - USA http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/22/science/22hypno.html?8dpc 11-22-2005 This Is Your Brain Under Hypnosis By Sandra Blakeslee Hypnosis, with its long and checkered history in medicine and entertainment, is receiving some new respect from neuroscientists. Recent brain studies of people who are susceptible to suggestion indicate that when they act on the suggestions their brains show profound changes in how they process information. The suggestions, researchers report, literally change what people see, hear, feel and believe to be true. The new experiments, which used brain imaging, found that people who were hypnotized "saw" colors where there were none. Others lost the ability to make simple decisions. Some people looked at common English words and thought that they were gibberish. "The idea that perceptions can be manipulated by expectations" is fundamental to the study of cognition, said Michael I. Posner, an emeritus professor of neuroscience at the University of Oregon and expert on attention. "But now we're really getting at the mechanisms." Even with little understanding of how it works, hypnosis has been used in medicine since the 1950's to treat pain and, more recently, as a treatment for anxiety, depression, trauma, irritable bowel syndrome and eating disorders. There is, however, still disagreement about what exactly the hypnotic state is or, indeed, whether it is anything more than an effort to please the hypnotist or a natural form of extreme concentration where people become oblivious to their surroundings while lost in thought. Hypnosis had a false start in the 18th century when a German physician, Dr. Franz Mesmer, devised a miraculous cure for people suffering all manner of unexplained medical problems. Amid dim lights and ethereal music played on a glass harmonica, he infused them with an invisible "magnetic fluid" that only he was able to muster. Thus mesmerized, clients were cured. Although Dr. Mesmer was eventually discredited, he was the first person to show that the mind could be manipulated by suggestion to affect the body, historians say. This central finding was resurrected by Dr. James Braid, an English ophthalmologist who in 1842 coined the word hypnosis after the Greek word for sleep. Braid reportedly put people into trances by staring at them intently, but he did not have a clue as to how it worked. In this vacuum, hypnosis was adopted by spiritualists and stage magicians who used dangling gold watches to induce hypnotic states in volunteers from the audience, and make them dance, sing or pretend to be someone else, only to awaken at a hand clap and laughter from the crowd. In medical hands, hypnosis was no laughing matter. In the 19th century, physicians in India successfully used hypnosis as anesthesia, even for limb amputations. The practice fell from favor only when ether was discovered. Now, Dr. Posner and others said, new research on hypnosis and suggestion is providing a new view into the cogs and wheels of normal brain function. One area that it may have illuminated is the processing of sensory data. Information from the eyes, ears and body is carried to primary sensory regions in the brain. From there, it is carried to so-called higher regions where interpretation occurs. For example, photons bouncing off a flower first reach the eye, where they are turned into a pattern that is sent to the primary visual cortex. There, the rough shape of the flower is recognized. The pattern is next sent to a higher - in terms of function - region, where color is recognized, and then to a higher region, where the flower's identity is encoded along with other knowledge about the particular bloom. The same processing stream, from lower to higher regions, exists for sounds, touch and other sensory information. Researchers call this direction of flow feedforward. As raw sensory data is carried to a part of the brain that creates a comprehensible, conscious impression, the data is moving from bottom to top. Bundles of nerve cells dedicated to each sense carry sensory information. The surprise is the amount of traffic the other way, from top to bottom, called feedback. There are 10 times as many nerve fibers carrying information down as there are carrying it up. These extensive feedback circuits mean that consciousness, what people see, hear, feel and believe, is based on what neuroscientists call "top down processing." What you see is not always what you get, because what you see depends on a framework built by experience that stands ready to interpret the raw information - as a flower or a hammer or a face. The top-down structure explains a lot. If the construction of reality has so much top-down processing, that would make sense of the powers of placebos (a sugar pill will make you feel better), nocebos (a witch doctor will make you ill), talk therapy and meditation. If the top is convinced, the bottom level of data will be overruled. This brain structure would also explain hypnosis, which is all about creating such formidable top-down processing that suggestions overcome reality. According to decades of research, 10 to 15 percent of adults are highly hypnotizable, said Dr. David Spiegel, a psychiatrist at Stanford who studies the clinical uses of hypnosis. Up to age 12, however, before top-down circuits mature, 80 to 85 percent of children are highly hypnotizable. One adult in five is flat out resistant to hypnosis, Dr. Spiegel said. The rest are in between, he said. In some of the most recent work, Dr. Amir Raz, an assistant professor of clinical neuroscience at Columbia, chose to study highly hypnotizable people with the help of a standard psychological test that probes conflict in the brain. As a professional magician who became a scientist to understand better the slippery nature of attention, Dr. Raz said that he "wanted to do something really impressive" that other neuroscientists could not ignore. The probe, called the Stroop test, presents words in block letters in the colors red, blue, green and yellow. The subject has to press a button identifying the color of the letters. The difficulty is that sometimes the word RED is colored green. Or the word YELLOW is colored blue. For people who are literate, reading is so deeply ingrained that it invariably takes them a little bit longer to override the automatic reading of a word like RED and press a button that says green. This is called the Stroop effect. Sixteen people, half highly hypnotizable and half resistant, went into Dr. Raz's lab after having been covertly tested for hypnotizability. The purpose of the study, they were told, was to investigate the effects of suggestion on cognitive performance. After each person underwent a hypnotic induction, Dr. Raz said: "Very soon you will be playing a computer game inside a brain scanner. Every time you hear my voice over the intercom, you will immediately realize that meaningless symbols are going to appear in the middle of the screen. They will feel like characters in a foreign language that you do not know, and you will not attempt to attribute any meaning to them. "This gibberish will be printed in one of four ink colors: red, blue, green or yellow. Although you will only attend to color, you will see all the scrambled signs crisply. Your job is to quickly and accurately depress the key that corresponds to the color shown. You can play this game effortlessly. As soon as the scanning noise stops, you will relax back to your regular reading self." Dr. Raz then ended the hypnosis session, leaving each person with what is called a posthypnotic suggestion, an instruction to carry out an action while not hypnotized. Days later, the subjects entered the brain scanner. In highly hypnotizables, when Dr. Raz's instructions came over the intercom, the Stroop effect was obliterated, he said. The subjects saw English words as gibberish and named colors instantly. But for those who were resistant to hypnosis, the Stroop effect prevailed, rendering them significantly slower in naming the colors. When the brain scans of the two groups were compared, a distinct pattern appeared. Among the hypnotizables, Dr. Raz said, the visual area of the brain that usually decodes written words did not become active. And a region in the front of the brain that usually detects conflict was similarly dampened. Top-down processes overrode brain circuits devoted to reading and detecting conflict, Dr. Raz said, although he did not know exactly how that happened. Those results appeared in July in The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. A number of other recent studies of brain imaging point to similar top-down brain mechanisms under the influence of suggestion. Highly hypnotizable people were able to "drain" color from a colorful abstract drawing or "add" color to the same drawing rendered in gray tones. In each case, the parts of their brains involved in color perception were differently activated. Brain scans show that the control mechanisms for deciding what to do in the face of conflict become uncoupled when people are hypnotized. Top-down processes override sensory, or bottom-up information, said Dr. Stephen M. Kosslyn, a neuroscientist at Harvard. People think that sights, sounds and touch from the outside world constitute reality. But the brain constructs what it perceives based on past experience, Dr. Kosslyn said.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 23 Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:42:50 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:10:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Clark >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:20:29 -0200 >Subject: Bob Pratt Passes >This is a very sad note. >Bob Pratt, a great UFO researcher and a good friend, died last >Saturday, November 19th. His death is a great loss for Ufology >worldwide. >Last Friday, Bob had a heart attack and by Saturday, he was gone. I am saddened to hear this. I didn't know Bob well, but on the handful of occasions I met him, I found him to be wonderful company. Besides his good sense of humor and wry outlook on life, he was an encyclopedia's worth of UFO knowledge, a large portion of it from his own investigations into extraordinary phenomena in Brazil and elsewhere. He had a sane, balanced, and mature perspective, and he was everything but the goggle-eyed true
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 23 Re: Hypnosis Gets Positive Recognition - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:28:31 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:22:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Hypnosis Gets Positive Recognition - Lehmberg >From: William Wise <will.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:37:16 -0500 >Subject: Hypnosis Gets Positive Recognition >Source: The New York Times - USA >http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/22/science/22hypno.html?8dpc >11-22-2005 >This Is Your Brain Under Hypnosis >By Sandra Blakeslee >Hypnosis, with its long and checkered history in medicine and >entertainment, is receiving some new respect from >neuroscientists. Recent brain studies of people who are >susceptible to suggestion indicate that when they act on the >suggestions their brains show profound changes in how they >process information. The suggestions, researchers report, >literally change what people see, hear, feel and believe to be >true. Folks; I offer this piece on same, with illustration! Wow! Eh? http://tinyurl.com/bakq2
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 24 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 13:07:43 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 08:28:35 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:54:27 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother <snip> >In the American Asociation for the Advancement of Science >debate published in 1970(?) there is a paper by Lester Grinspoon >and ( ) Persky in which they argue that saucer shapes result >from childhood memories of breasts (domed disc, etc. - look at >the McMinnville object with the pole on the top - and cigar- >shaped UFOs were childhood memories of... well, you guessed it. <snip>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 24 Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 14:14:00 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 08:33:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Hatch >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <gevaerd.nul> >Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:20:29 -0200 >Subject: Bob Pratt Passes >This is a very sad note. >Bob Pratt, a great UFO researcher and a good friend, died last >Saturday, November 19th. His death is a great loss for Ufology >worldwide. >Last Friday, Bob had a heart attack and by Saturday, he was gone. >There will be a memorial service on Friday afternoon at his >town, Lake Worth, Florida. >Bob was a distinguished American writer, UFO researcher and >journalist who was co-author of Night Siege: The Hudson Valley >UFO Sightings, with J. Allen Hynek, and the author of UFO Danger >In Brazil, translated and published here as Perigo Alien=EDgena no >Brasil. >It is very probable that no other foreign UFO researcher had >more knowledge about the Brazilian Ufology as Bob Pratt. He had >been to Brazil 13 times and was the kind of field investigator >that really went to where the facts were to be researched. He >helped a lot the Brazilian UFO researchers to best evaluate the >dramatic incidents of alien attacks in the Northeast of the >country and in the Amazon. <snip> AJ, This is terrible news, the first I heard of it. A definite loss for ufology. Bob helped me locate sightings in places the Brazilians can't find. (no offense intended). Just the antithesis of the armchair observer, he really got out into the field.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 24 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 19:34:48 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 08:35:27 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 03:55:49 -0800 >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >>From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:26:07 EST >>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 14:56:02 -0500 >>>Subject: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>>Source: The Wichita Eagle - Wichita, Kansas, USA >>>http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/nation/13214050.htm >>>Sun, Nov. 20, 2005 >>>Psychologist: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>>By Richard Morin Washington Post >>>Accounts of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens >>>have one eerie similarity. >Hello Dave, Dave (and no doubt others..) >This is a perfect example of why I try to stay out of >psychological discussions. >- Larry Larry - I didn't feel qualified to take the cogent, well-informed, logical and incisive approach of the others (responses sometimes worthy of framing!), so I simply took the easier, "good cop with a case of insanity" approach to Richard Morin's nonsense. Many of my points were a 90-degree tack into the theater of the absurd. I was sarcasically treating an asinine theory with partially asinine remarks, mixing typical childhood memories with genetic imprinting, and implying that I was agreeing with his theory that alien faces look like the genetic imprint of mommy we all carry with us from birth: A genetic imprint of an oversized squirrel with a squashed face, a 7000-watt lightbulb head, no nose, no ears, no lips, etc. Therefore my mom must have been an alien and presumably did the same things to me as aliens do to others. (Yes, I think I was abducted based on a series of powerful, strange dreams as an adult, involving floating, ugly people with enormous heads, thin gray skin, and large eyes, doctors and technicians, but have no good or bad memories of any specifics. If anything actually did happen, it doesn't bother me. I take the subject very seriously, but I also have a sense of humor about it - especially when it comes to posts by some academics whose VCR's are still flashing "12:00", and whose minds are still flashing "I'm out of the office right now, but please leave a message.") In most places, I fought absurdity with absurdity, using the weapon of humor. Two things I liked about Dr. John Mack, for example, is that 1) He treated the abduction experience with respect, and, 2) He provided _some_ comic relief (with an edge and a point) by telling one-liners such as, "You know you've been abducted when you go to sleep in Manhattan and wake up in a cornfield in Illinois." Maybe not material good enough for a comedy act at the Improv (he didn't quit his Day Job, fortunately), but probably very helpful and memorable for his audience, and put the "sleep hypnogognia" theory in its rightful place of "crazy ideas" using a left-hook punch of only 20 words. The only things different about my post, compared to Morin's
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 24 Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Aldrich From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 07:50:05 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 08:39:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Aldrich >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <gevaerd.nul> >Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:20:29 -0200 >Subject: Bob Pratt Passes >This is a very sad note. >Bob Pratt, a great UFO researcher and a good friend, died last >Saturday, November 19th. His death is a great loss for Ufology >worldwide. <snip> Some years back Tom Tulien and I interviewed Bob for the Sign Oral History Program of the Sign Historical Group. He was very happy with the result and his wife liked it and planned to use it after his passing as a remebrance of Bob. We told him we hoped that was far in the future. We met with Bob and his son at Lake Worth during another research trip, enjoying a long discussion of UFOs and gratefully accepting of some recordings and transcripts from his collection. Tom also travelled to Brazil with Bob where they talked with and interviewed a number of Brazilian researchers and UFO witnesses. Bob got on very well with most of his Brazilian colleagues. Bob was very supportive of the goals of the Sign Historical Group and shared much of his material with us. Farewell friend. Thank you for your support and help!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 24 Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Scheldroup From: John Scheldroup <jschel.nul> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 11:46:04 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:04:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Scheldroup >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <gevaerd.nul> >Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:20:29 -0200 >Subject: Bob Pratt Passes >This is a very sad note. >Bob Pratt, a great UFO researcher and a good friend, died last >Saturday, November 19th. His death is a great loss for Ufology >worldwide. <snip> This is extremely sad news. An e-mail that I sent to Bob this May was with regard to one his UFO reports that I had developed some interest in. It was a case file that Bob reported on, back in '75, up in my neck of the woods. That case file is at his website at: http://www.bobpratt.org/prettiest.html and titled Fleeing In Terror It mentions Sheriff's Deputy Jack Hunker - who happens to be the nephew of a family friend - and because the Aunt and myself share e-mail regularly, it was a somewhat simple matter to see if she recollected anything to do with this UFO story that Bob reported on, but as told to her by nephew Sheriff's Deputy Jack. She remembered it alright. She now lives in a senior's complex and I guess that she has even told a few of her lady friends in the building about her nephew's encounter in '75 with an hysterical woman that came across a UFO parked above a lonely country road. I have traveled on this road many times, it is part of our beautiful Wisconsin state forest land. Although my contact with Bob was brief, I could tell Mr. Pratt was one of the great reporters, sort of reminded me of Kolchak The Nightstalker, still wanting any leads at all as to this strange-bizarre occurrence that nearly scared this unfortunate woman to death. I really enjoy talking with him, I wish we would have had the time to share more. ----- From: Robert Pratt Thursday, May 12, 2005 10:07 AM Hello John. Sorry but I have not had any contact with Kathy or Deputy Hunker since my visit to the Superior-Duluth area in 1975. Also, Gene Lundholm, the man who helped me investigate that and other cases at that time, died a few years ago. If you ever do find her and get more details - such as what effect that sighting had on her in the years since - I would appreciate it if you would let me know what you learn. Thanks. Bob Pratt -----
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 24 Re: Spellbound By Sky Lights - McCartney From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio.nul> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 23:01:17 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:09:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Spellbound By Sky Lights - McCartney >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 12:51:16 -0800 >Subject: Re: Spellbound By Sky Lights >Perlman and the Chronicle issued the following partial >retraction yesterday (Saturday) under "Corrections": >"A story Thursday [actually Friday] on mysterious lights in the >sky mistakenly attributed one of the lights to the planet Venus, >which actually sets in the west each evening, on the opposite >side of the sky from Mars." Not long after David Rudiak wrote the post above, I listened to another UFO sighting unfold in the Bay Area not far from the nighttime lights that the San Francisco Chronicle reported. Before the incident is too old, I thought I would share it with the UFO Updates community. That Sunday I was working as a copy editor at The Reporter in Vacaville, which is roughly 30 miles northeast of Rudiak's East Bay residence. Starting at about 7:40 p.m., the California Highway Patrol dispatch in Vacaville began receiving calls about an unusual flying object. The dispatcher reported receiving three calls from the public about a "green cylinder with flames coming from it" that was flying in an erratic manner. At various times over the next half hour, the object was reported at different locations, generally to the west of Vacaville. One report placed the object at an elevation of 300 to 400 feet. According to the dispatcher, a ground unit reported "a visual" of the object near Red Top, but a helicopter and a fixed-wing aircraft that closed in on the location reported finding no aircraft. The Reporter's on-duty reporter brushed off the event. The next day, I made a few calls to see if I could come up with some additional information. Wayne Ziese of CHP public affairs contacted the nearby Travis Air Force Base for me, but they were unaware of any traffic at the time. Ziese said a number of witnesses had called the CHP to report unusual lights that appeared heading from the Central Valley west to the Coastal Range, but that CHP units were never able to find anything. I also called the Nut Tree Airport, a small general-aviation facility in Vacaville, but a manager had received no reports from local pilots of the mystery object. The sighting occurred over many counties four days after a Chronicle photographer captured images of two nighttime lights not far away. Alas, my stay at The Reporter was short-lived, and I won't be following up on the sighting. If someone with more time would like to track down the CHP trooper who reported a visual sighting of the object, please contact me off-list for a possible contact.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 24 Re: MJ-12 & Menzel - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254.nul> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 02:41:58 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:11:51 -0500 Subject: Re: MJ-12 & Menzel - Gates >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 23:00:56 -0000 >Subject: MJ-12 & Menzel [was: Who Was Philip J. Klass?] >>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 22:26:46 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? <brevity snip> >>Does anybody on the List know of anyone besides me who actually >>looked at his Harvard Archives papers, as well as his UFO >>correspondence at the American Philosophical Society Library in >>Philadelphia? >No, I don't know anybody at all. >But are we really going to regurgitate Menzel and MJ-12 again? >So Menzel was "the designated debunker of MJ-12". And it is the >"easiest explanation for the crummy explanations". >What on earth has his long association with the NSA, for >example, got to do with the Roswell crash? Or his knowledge of >Japanese, or his knowledge of encryption? For decoding the >writings and strange hieroglyphics on the wreckage, I suppose. Listers, The point being that Menzel was involved in highly classified activities that people didn't know about - in essence living a double life. I also seem to recall that all the while Oppenheimer was going through hell during his hearings and had his security clearence revoked, what is not generally known is Oppenheimer held code word clearences with other government enitys that weren't revoked and he continued to work with them even though his AEC clearence was yanked. In essence a double life. The bottom line is a secretive group, doing a national security project can and has existed in the past. Secrets are kept and will be kept. Also many people are involved in highly classified activitys and present a public face that is totally different then the one they show.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 24 Re: Abductees In The Jail House - Aubeck From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck.nul> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:19:41 +0000 (GMT) Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:17:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Abductees In The Jail House - Aubeck >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:27:37 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Abductees In The Jail House >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 03:30:34 EST >>Subject: Abductees In The Jail House >>The abductee situation is full of stories but one that I have >>had on the back burner for a long time is whether any abductees >>had been or are incarcerated in jails/prisons. <snip> >Greetings Greg! >According to our ET history, you will recall that there are many >such cases mentioned in the Bible, a collection of ancient books >containing a wealth of facts about UFOs and their occupants who >originated from the heavens above. >The few examples below are from 'Acts (of the Apostles)', a book >which describe the struggles the early experiencers/believers >had in sharing the ET message with the rest of the world. <snip> >Nick Balaskas Hi Nick, Although your quote from the Bible doesn't help Greg with his question (no UFO abductees are mentioned), you are right in implying that history is full of examples of 'people from the sky' who wind up captured by humans. Examples: c. 810 AD - Agobard, archbishop of Lyons, writes that he helped free 'four persons in chains, three men and one woman' who had allegedly fallen from skyships. 'They retained them in iron for some days, before they brought them before me, followed by the crowd, to have them stoned to death as they had been condemned, but after a long discussion, the truth finally triumphed after the many reasonings which I opposed to them.' As the people caught were shown to be humans, the tale actually fits the topic of the thread (I strongly recommend the excellent article on this episode by Jean- Louis Brodu, 'Magonia: A Re-evaluation,' published in Fortean Studies a few years ago). From the 11th century on we find quaint European stories of airships whose occupants were sometimes caught when they descended to Earth to free a spear or anchor. These were not abductees, mind, but people travelling in the sky. (See, for instance, the 'Speculum Regale,' composed around 1250 AD.) In the 19th century there were several instances of people who, after claiming to have fallen from the moon, or been taken for rides by mysterious airships, were then put away by the authorities. However, as I pointed out in my previous post, followers of Jacobs and Hopkins should expect many modern abductees to find themselves in jail at some time in their lives, for purely statistical reasons.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 24 Filer's Files #48 -- 2005 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar.nul> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:29:01 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:29:21 -0500 Subject: Filer's Files #48 -- 2005 Filer's Files #48 -- 2005 November 23, 2005 George A. Filer, Director MUFON Eastern Vice President of Skywatch International Webmaster Chuck Warren www.nationalufocenter.com Happy Thanksgiving Disc shot over Kyota, Japan This week's files cover: Thanksgiving History, Astronauts James McDivitt and Ed White saw UFOs, FBI's J Edgar Hoover wanted crash disk, Mars - Artificial Rectilinear Construction, and Creation Was an Intelligent Project. In addition, witnesses saw UFOs over Arkansas, California, Delaware, Florida, Louisiana, Montana, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, and Virginia. Many witnesses saw UFOs in Argentina, Australia, Canada, Mexico, and the United Kingdom. The purpose of these files is to report weekly the UFO eyewitness and photo/video evidence that occurs on a daily basis around the world. These Files assume that extraterrestrial intelligent life not only exists, but my hypothesis is that of the over one hundred UFOs reported each week, many represent alien craft. The United States Air Force Project conducted a worldwide investigation of UFOs from 1947 until December 1969, when it disbanded its investigative team. We are continuing the investigation. Happy Thanksgiving for New Nation George Washington during his first year as President established by proclamation Thursday, November 26, 1789, as "A Day of Public Thanksgiving and Prayer." Washington signed the decree on October 3, called "General Thanksgiving," that appointed the day to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God. Wwhile there were Thanksgiving observances in America both before and after Washington's proclamation, this represents the first to be so designated by the new national government. . At the start of the American Revolutionary War in 1775, General George Washington took command of the Continental Army to fight King George III of England, then the world's most powerful nation. The first general order issued to his pitifully few troops who had little hope of winning the war was: "The General most earnestly requires and expects a due observance of those articles of war established for the government of the army, which forbid profane cursing, swearing and drunkenness. And in like manner, he requires and expects of all officers and soldiers not engaged in actual duty, a punctual attendance of Divine Services, to implore the blessing of Heaven upon the means used for our safety and defense." At this time in American history, it is time to again implore the blessing of Heaven. We have a war in Iraq, with many sides claiming a belief in the God of Islam and the Christian God. A fight that has been going since the Crusades. Astronauts James McDivitt and Ed White Saw UFOs Astronaut and now General James McDivitt (ret.) insists the true stories of UFO sightings by astronauts have not been told. James claims that he and Ed White saw UFOs while flying aboard the Gemini 4 spacecraft on June 5, 1965. McDivitt tells how his capsule was rotating around and noticed something out in front that was a white cylindrical shape with a white pole sticking out of one corner of it. I couldn't tell how close it was and I couldn't tell what the size was --depth perception is not very good unless you know the size of the article you're looking at. "Two cameras were floating inside the spacecraft so I grabbed one of them and took a picture, Then I gabbed the other one and took a picture." McDivitt says the films were sent to Houston and he never really saw them again. It gave a white or silvery appearance as seen against the day sky. The spacecraft was over the Pacific Ocean, but he saw a UFO. The pictures released were definitely what he saw. NORAD claimed the closest satellite was 1600 miles away. McDivitt indicated that on one other occasion off the coast of China, he saw a "light" that was moving with respect to the star background. Ed White died January 27, 1967, at NASA Kennedy Space Center, Florida, in the Apollo spacecraft fire. FBI's J. Edgar Hoover Wanted Crashed Disc Memorandum for Mr. Ladd. Mr. (name blacked out) also discussed this matter with Colonel L. R. Forney of NID. Colonel Forney indicated that it was his attitude that inasmuch as it has been established that the flying disks are not the result of any Army or Navy experiments, the matter is of interest to the FBI. He stated that he was of the opinion that the Bureau, if at all possible, should accede to General Schulgen's request. SWR:JB J. Edgar Hoover wrote; "I would do it but before agreeing to it we must insist upon full across to discs recovered. For instance in the case the Army grabbed it and would not let us have at it for cursory examination." Also, in a memo to FBI Director, J. Edgar Hoover from the Washington FBI Office Dated March 22, 1950=E2=80=A6 "An investigator for the Air Force stated that three so-called flying saucers had been recovered in New Mexico. They were described as being circular in shape with raised centers and about 50 feet in diameter. Each was occupied by three bodies of human shape, but only 3 feet tall and dressed in metallic cloth of a very fine texture. Each body was bandaged in a manner similar to the blackout suits used by speed flyers and test pilots." (This memo was released in 1976 under the Freedom of Information Act. Mars - Artificial Construction There are strange artificial constructions on Mars on the southeast floor of the West Candor Chasma. These unusual rectilinear blocks appear artificial suggesting alien construction. The Arrow is not the only feature at Candor suggesting artificial origins. There are nearby hex icons and a skull like face. Knobby Remnants north of Cerberus Plains http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/ab1_m04/images/M0201705.html The hole in the structure or black dot is approximately 70 meters wide. Access the MOC images and ancillary data at http://marsartifacts.tripod.com/ Creation Was an Intelligent Project Joyce Sawtelle writes, last week Pope Benedict says, "Creation Was an Intelligent Project by God." Wow, today I read that someone in the Vatican has an issue with the Pope's point of view about intelligent design. That could get interesting. Anyway, I've never heard anyone claim that they have ever witnessed the process of one species morphing to become a different species, have you?? Not even one-celled organisms have been seen doing it, unless when a flu virus mutates into a different strain, but it isn't a different species. I'd really like to know if anyone has ever witnessed one species in the process of becoming another. If they have, maybe there is some basis for believing in evolution, but otherwise I simply cannot understand how come so many people swallow that theory hook, line and sinker; or why it is considered so "scientific"? Anyway, thousands and thousands of people have seen UFOs, but of course UFOs aren't accepted as science, whereas "evolution" is accepted. What's wrong with this picture? Really enjoying Filer's Files and look forward to it every week. Thanks to Joyce Sawtelle UFO Penetration Loring AFB, Maine -- Dr. Bruce Maccabee writes, The Air Force Operations Center informed the National Military Command Center that an unidentified helicopter, possibly two, had been sighted flying low over Loring AFB, Maine on October 29, 1975. This event, which was described in a Confidential Air Force document that was leaked to NICAP in the fall of 1976, provided the information "breakthrough" that alerted us to the sightings which occurred over 5 northern tier SAC bases in October and November 1975. The term "unidentified helicopter" was a cover term for a large, orange glowing object which, according to the document, exhibited a "clear intent" as it hovered near a weapon storage area. These sightings were reported on in detail in the book "CLEAR INTENT" by Fawcett and Greenwood published in the early 1980's. Note, by the way, that these flyover events were at about the same time as the Walton Abduction in Arizona. Thanks to Dr. Bruce Maccabee Arkansas Black Triangle LITTLE ROCK AIRPORT -- On October 6, 2005 a recent close-range (~200' horizontal, ~900' vertical) observation of one of the large, fully-lit machines near the flight line of Little Rock Airport, accompanied by a fully battle-ready Huey and a troop transport helicopter - great drawings, too: (http://www.hbccufo.org/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=3D3 217) California - Cigar Shaped Light MODESTO -- On November 9, 2005 around 6:30 p.m. I went outside and saw a large cigar shaped light, it wasn't moving much, but seemed to have some kind of twinkling lights on it. The lights may have been red. My grandson saw it and we called my husband to see it. It disappeared, he left and it came back. Very exciting. Thanks to Brian Vike VALENCIA -- On Sunday, November 6, 2005, at approximately 4 PM, my husband and I stepped out onto our balcony and heard an aircraft and saw what appeared to be a military transport. Flying or gliding behind and to the left and right of the tail were six or seven objects. The objects were too close to the aircraft to be escorting type aircraft. I thought the aircraft could be dragging balloons behind the craft to be release at some point during flight. The objects were black and round. My husband pointed out that we wouldn't be able to see balloons. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Delaware -- Orange Light ? NEWARK -- The witness reports seeing a red-orange light seen from the University of Delaware campus on November 7, 2005, at 10:30 PM. While walking back from class this evening, I noticed a bright, red-orange light in the south sky traveling north. At first, I though the light was an airplane, but it had no flashing lights. After about two minutes of watching the light dimmed to a barely visible white dot and headed east. It disappeared from my line of sight as some buildings were blocking the way. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Louisiana - Disk DENHAM SPRINGS -- The disk-shaped object was first sited moving at a very fast constant rate to the northwest on November 7, 2005, at 9:27 PM. The object was standing on edge and the periphery was circled with red and white lights of constant brightness without strobes or rotation. The object did not rotate. At arm's length, the disk was the diameter of my hand (about 2 1/2 inches). You had to be constantly moving your eyes to keep up with it but it had no sound. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Montana -Distinct Diamond Shape MILES CITY -- I was driving east on US highway 12, alone on November 5, 2005, at 7:00 p.m., a dark moonless evening, at 80 mph when I suddenly noticed two intense white lights flashing in front of me about 15 feet in front of my car. The lower light was about 15 feet above ground and there was another light directly above the lower light. Both lights were the same intensity and brighter than car headlights, and had a distinct diamond shape with sharp edges. The vertical diameter was about 3 inches. They were flashing in unison at intervals of about 1.5 seconds. They made no sound. It was clear that there was no craft involved and no physical connection between the lights was observed. The lights were apparently moving at 80 mph, like I was as the lights drifted toward the 3 o'clock position over the next 30 seconds; I stopped the car and viewed the lights, now stationary but still flashing at the same interval and still about 15 feet away from me. The lower light, about 15 ft above ground, was at the same height as the telephone or electrical wires on that side (the right side) of the road. Indeed, the lower light appeared to be directly on the wires. I continued to watch the blinking lights without changing frequency, size, brightness or position for about 3 minutes. They continued blinking until I rounded a curve which obscured my view. My reaction to the lights was intense intellectual interest (I am a MUFON Field Investigator for the state of Minnesota) but I remained calm and felt no physical sensations. The most obvious mundane explanation is an electrical discharge of some sort from the wires. The object remains unidentified. Thanks to Brian Vike www.UFOcenter.com . New Jersey Strange Lights BRIDGEWATER -- Around 8 PM, on November 7, 2005, at 10:30 PM, a cluster of lights was seen very low to the ground and moving much slower than traditional aircraft. I can say this with certainty because there were planes also airborne that were much higher and faster. These objects climbed one at a time like a plane taking off, but this inclined ascent was done from mid- air, not from the ground. In one instance, an ascending object appeared to come very close to a jet aircraft. About an hour later, I saw another cluster of lights in about the same area of the first cluster that resembled a constellation like the Big Dipper. This is my first UFO sighting. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com North Carolina Field Team Observations Due to continued orb activity in a UFO-active area in central North Carolina, the Carolina Group Research Project field team again photographed orb images occurring in the immediate vicinity of power lines on the property. Photographs taken around power lines once again suggest that orbs are attracted to them. Thanks to Alan Caviness Ohio -- UFO Below the Trees. FOSTORIA -- George Ritter took this image of a UFO just above the ground on October 31, 2005. Note second object behind trees.[]UFOs are often seen moving just above the tree tops or at extremely high altitudes apparently in an attempt to avoid accidents with aircraft. Thanks to George Ritter. Oklahoma - Missile KINGSTON -- On November 5, 2005, at 10:50 PM, a flying missile like yellow, orange object with a trail was seen at low altitude heading northwest. The sky was very clear with bright stars. We noticed three falling stars, one before the event and two after the event. We heard no noise, but a train was passing about 7 miles away. The object reminded me of a falling star, but orange/yellow in color and about 20 times larger. Also it was going in the opposite direction of a falling star. It had somewhat of a trail or tail following behind. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Pennsylvania - Stream of Light MT. PLEASANT -- A passenger and I witnessed a bright green stream of light almost like a fireworks flying south along Highway 119, and on October 31, 2005, on 9:10 PM. The night was clear with lots of stars in the sky. The tail of it was very long and it disappeared all of a sudden. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Oregon -- UFO Photos MCMINNVILLE -- Mrs. Trent was outside feeding her rabbits at about 7:45 PM, when she saw a very bright almost silver object silently approaching the farm on May 11, 1950. She called to her husband who did not answer, but grabbed her camera and took two photos before it rapidly accelerated away. They waited a few weeks to have the film developed then showed it two a few friends. Astronomer William Harmann analyzed the shots for the Condon Committee and concluded they were probably real. The object was analyzed to be 65 to 100 feet in diameter. Computer enhancement has revealed no sign of a fake. Rhode Island -- Loud Sounds CRANSTON -- we were inside our house and heard several loud jet like sounds that would stop and then start up again on November 5, 2005, at 11 PM, (exactly like the noises posted on 8/11/2004 in Cranston). The sounds are unexplained. Our suburban western Cranston neighborhood is fairly large and mostly quiet at night. It was an unusually warm night for November and also I noticed it was extremely misty and foggy when I went outside to check it out. I also heard many neighbors' dogs barking and my cat was checking it out in the window, too. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Peter Davenport, Director Texas - UFO Sighted Hovering HOUSTON -- My wife and I, who are both 50 year old professionals, were awakened at 4:32 AM, by a shuddering that was making our house vibrate and a single laser beam type of light that was flashing into our residence on November 15, 2005. I peered out the sliding glass doors and saw an oval shaped object, 50 to 60 feet long hovering over our swimming pool. My wife joined me ad we noted it was 25 to 30 feet high and was putting out a golden glow from its bottom. The craft had a very low golden sheen and looked almost transparent. You couldn't see thru the object but it was easy to miss it. The craft was within 60 feet from our 2nd floor balcony bedroom window. It was shuddering or vibrating in waves. We both were in shock and were afraid to make any sound. Our cats ran underneath the wooden deck that surrounds our swimming pool and our dog lay down with his head between his paws. We watched the craft hover for about five minutes, then it rose slowly almost straight up. The next morning, the water level of the swimming pool had dropped 6 inches from the time of the incident. That is really the only significant and viable impact the craft left besides the clocks all losing about 5 minutes. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Tennessee -- Triangle and Plasma BRISTOL -- My mother and I had just exited our home when we saw a very bright orange egg shaped light that at first appeared to be aircraft landing lights on October 31, 2005, on 7:40 PM. The misshapen glowing mass began descending slowly meandered downward (unlike a meteor) and seemed to "drip" orange fire like burning plastic. The object descended behind distant trees and we no longer saw it. My father contacted the local FAA office but unfortunately they did not see this from their vantage point in the tower. We express our gratitude to Mr. Kim Shaffer, State Director for Eastern Tennessee, who can be reached at shaffer56.nul NASHVILLE -- A business woman in Williamson County was driving home at about 9:30 PM, on May 17, 1999, when she rounded a curve on Concord Road to see objects hovering silently over a field near the road. She first thought that these objects were small planes going to crash then realized that she was witnessing a possibly otherworldly craft. She described the objects as having three white small lights that were totally flat black and non reflective. Also strange is the fact that these two objects were obviously separate due to her seeing stars between them but that they were in such close proximity, "one was parked inside the other" according to her testimony. I found this witness well educated and judge her highly trustworthy and sincere. As a side note, this sighting was followed a few weeks later by a reported crop formation on the same road, coincidence? Thanks to Kim Shaffer Utah -- Saucer Spotted SALT LAKE CITY -- At 11:52 PM, I was on my way to work east bound on State road SR-201 and saw a saucer shaped craft, emitting a glow of gray/white light climbing upwards from the valley floor into the clouds on October 31, 2005. The craft was about 5 to 10 miles away in front of me to the east south east and was small pea size at arm=E2=80=99s length. The crafts starting point in the valley is unknown. The craft was out of sight in seconds. The clouds this night were small and separate from each other. Temperature was about 47 F. and no winds. Virginia -- Sphere Lights Triangle SUFFOLK -- I have witnessed a sphere of light twice, but tonight on October 31, 2005 at 11:30 PM, I had the closest encounter to date. At 11:15 PM, traveling down Constance Road, I spotted two very large and very bright spheres at about 600 feet off the ground. I pulled over to get a closer look and saw they were moving directly toward me. I phoned my Mother, and saw the two spheres were actually lights on the underbelly of a very large triangular shaped craft. The craft had five lights, one on each rear corner, two on the front corner, and red strobing middle light. It headed northeast toward Nansemond Parkway at about ten mph. I'm a former Marine, so I don't scare easily. There was no jet or rotor propulsion sound. The next morning, around 5:45 AM heading to work, I spotted a triangular shaped craft and heard a very low whistle or hum and saw a different light pattern underneath its belly. There were three white lights at each corner, with one red light in the middle, and one red directly at the tail of the object. MOUNT PLEASANT -- The objects I had reported in January, February, and March returned on November 10, 2005, at 7:15 p.m. I do not know what they are but I have lots a pictures and another video. Six spheres appeared as bright white to a burning orange glowing just above the tree line or horizon here on the ancient old mountains of Spotsylvania County. The glowing objects or UFOs appear to hover with 5-6 stacked on top of each other in a going upward line like formation just above the horizon. They are in the direction of the Blue ridge Mountains. They appear here at around 7:15 PM, like clock work? These are very strange? I have many new pictures and one video short. Thanks to Brian Vike www.hbccufo.com Washington - Black Orb LYNNWOOD -- A black orb disappeared into the clouds heading north along Highway 99, on November 6, 2005, at 10:30 PM. I just stepped out of my car and as always I look to the sky and I happened to see a black orb quickly flying below the clouds. It flew in and out of the clouds but then just disappeared. I heard a sound like blowing air over the top of an empty bottle, but it disappeared when the object was above the clouds. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com Argentina: Police Spot UFO SANTIAGO DEL ESTERO -- A strange luminous object engaging in sudden movements in the sky was seen by eight patrolling police officers on November 19, 2005, according to The Journal of Hispanic Ufology. The phenomenon lasted for half an hour and was also witnessed by other residents. Police officers from the locality were later able to ascertain that the phenomenon was seen by residents of the outlying towns, although no one has been able to explain the object's origin. According to today's edition of the El Liberal newspaper, It all began when officer Ariel Roldan and seven other men under his command rode together in a vehicle and saw a "large luminous object" in the sky. The intense white light moved from one side of the vehicle to another, causing the law enforcement agents to pull over and get out of the vehicle to find out what was going on. They immediately lit flares and tried to approach, setting out along a local road, as was reported. However, the light made a sudden movement shortly afterward and left the area. The police claim the object had "a very powerful light" and flew at an estimated altitude of 4000 meters. Also, the chief of Pinto Station phoned them to ask if they had seen the unusual phenomenon. Translation (c) 2005. S. Corrales, IHU. Australia - Photos & Abduction? QUEENSLAND -- My name is Ross, and this picture was taken last week of an object as it looped like a yo-yo from the south, then turning off to head east where it "blinked out." This is another regular visitor over my home in North Queensland, where we see this at least once a month. It moves at times with great speed, while at other times it moves so slowly that any aircraft would stall out of the sky. Whatever velocity it travels, it creates no sound. The image is slightly enlarged. Thanks to Ross BANORA POINT -- Just letting you know I have been having some more concerns with the left nostril of my nose. For some strange reason, I am finding more and more blood in my left nostril each morning, although, my nose has never bled during the day, or when I am sleeping. There is no blood on my pillow or bed sheets. Also, to add more concern to the issue, I am now experiencing a constant aching pain deep in the inside of my nose. The pain is in the left nostril only, and has become so excruciating at times. I am considering even to be hospitalized. I am not sure if there may be a growth of some kind, but I will be visiting the doctors sometime this week to find what is causing the pain. Could it be them that are causing this? I am considering perhaps running my video camera on motion detector mode all night, just in case they do visit, like they must have before. I am getting less sleep at night. Work adds to the problem. I have told my mum and she thinks it might not be anything too serious. Whatever it is, I hope it goes away soon. Thanks to Brian Vike Mexico -- Image of UFOs MOTUL, YUCATAN --This image was taken in the state of Yucatan, Mexico, in the year 2004 during a crafts exposition at the sheriff's office of San Pedro Chacabal. This material was furnished by a young man named Santiago to Prof. Silvestre Leal Campos of the SIRIO Research Group, stating that the image was taken by an archeologist from the town of Ticul. Their presence became known only upon developing the film. There are frequent sightings in this area of flying objects and tall, white-skinned and reddish haired humanoids. Note: the images are clippings of the original photograph. Research Credit: Grupo SIRIO. Thanks to S. Corrales, IHU. Translation (c) 2005 and Ana Luisa Cid. U.K. - Diamond Shaped Object LEICESTER -- On November 8, 2005, at 22:20 hours a low flying circle of lights was seen flying below cloud level. The craft was probably twice the size of a passenger plane, and covered in mainly white lights with the odd colored one definitely red and I think green and blue. There were not many colored lights. This was a large very clear sighting of a round object covered in lights. It made no noise moving about the same speed as a plane. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director www.ufocenter.com BRIMSDOWN, ENFIELD -- We where up on the scaffold and could see something really weird in the sky. It was diamond shaped and very large; it looked as if it was being towed by another small plane but it seems unbelievable that something as big as that could be towed by a light aircraft on November 4, 2005, at 2.30 p.m. This thing was the size of a small building and the plane was just like a pin head in comparison. Surely the slightest bit of wind would have caused the plane to be dragged all over the place. I could not think of a single rational thing that this could have been other than some kind of UFO. I had trouble thinking it was an aero plane towing something because of the sheer size of it. Thanks to Brian Vike LIVERPOOL -- Bill Bimson, "I have just had a look at the video footage from Navarre, Florida after reading Filer's Files." It is very similar to footage that we have in England (see http://www.mara.org.uk/Halewood_LITS.htm and Witham, Essex July 9, 2005 http://www.mara.org.uk/Recent_news1.htm ). Unfortunately it is starting to look like these sightings may be caused by fire balloons (see http://www.geocities.com/timbo2049/fireballoons.htm ). Our latest footage sees something bright drop away from one of the lights which is probably either some burning wax from a candle or a burning piece of cotton wool soaked in alcohol. I have already contacted Brian Vike to let him know about this. Best Regards, www.mara.org.uk UK Ministry of Defense Reports Dr. Annamarie Johnstone writes, "I read the UK Ministry of Defence UFO Reports in Filer's File #47, noting that the largest number of sightings, there, occurred in 1996, followed by a diminishing number during each year since 1996." My double, daylight sighting of a UFO, just outside the Bangor Submarine Base, took place in October 1996. Then in 1997 and during each ensuing year through 2005, chemtrails have been seen during most clear days in Washington State. In my first book, UFO DEFENSE TACTICS, I described a weather shield theory, stating that chemtrails are sprayed to deter UFO surveillance by changing atmospheric conditions. If the Ministry of Defense UK statistics are valid, my hypothesis may be correct, chemtrails have been sprayed over the UK, as well, during the same period of time! Best regards, Annamarie Johnstone UFO Defense Tactics: Weather Shield to Chemtrails by A. K. Johnstone Ph.D. Four stars according to Barnes & Noble.com. UFO Casebook relates that it is "information packed." Chosen as one of the ten best UFO books of 2002, by Anomalous Book List, it is available walmart.com, amazon.com, Sales.nul or 1-800-938- 1114. Is the government creating a weather shield to deter UFOs from entering the earth=E2=80=99s atmosphere? Take a look at the evidence. Filer's Files: Worldwide Reports of UFO Sightings Major George A. Filer USAF (Ret) & David E. Twichell are happy to announce the release of our new book. If you like Filer's Files newsletter and his monthly report in the MUFON Journal, you'll love the book! It is a collection of some of the most thought provoking UFO sighting and abduction reports from around the world by average citizens, trained observers, astronauts and U.S. presidents. This is a review of many of the best cases in the last several years. The book is $13.95 plus $3.05 tax & shipping Send check to address below or Paypal Subscribe to Filer's Files to receive CD So you won't miss a single breaking news story or the increased evidence for UFO and life in the universe. Help solve the mysteries of the universe. We have been bringing you the latest in UFO news since 1995, on radio, television and the Internet. Your dollars do make a difference! We appreciate our loyal subscribers participation but we need everyone's help not just a few. Annual Membership is only $25 for 52 weekly intelligence reports. Don't miss the latest images of UFOs from Earth and Mars. Subscribe today and receive a free UFO Photo CD. Be sure to ask for the CD, Send check or money order to: George Filer, 222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055. You can also go to: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr for majorstar.nul You may use Paypal, Visa, American Express, or Master Charge. REAL ESTATE Relocation Help! Get your free report and learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent to help you relocate, buy or sell a home. To get a free copy of this report e-mail me at: Majorstar.nul MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL. A MUFON membership includes the Journal and costs only $45.00 per year. To join MUFON or to report a UFO see http://www.mufon.com/. To ask questions contact MUFONHQ.nul Filer's Files is copyrighted 2005 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the COMPLETE files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue. These reports and comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to majorstar.nul Sending mail automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to keep your name or e-mail confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 24 'ET' Moves South In Latest UFO Sighting From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:34:28 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:34:28 -0500 Subject: 'ET' Moves South In Latest UFO Sighting Source: The Ilford Recorder, Essex, UK http://tinyurl.com/brf4c 24 November 2005 'ET' Moves South In Latest UFO Sighting Another UFO has been spotted in the skies over Redbridge. Jindy Singh, 23, from Ilford said he saw a strange flashing light low in the sky around midnight on Thursday. The light began as a triangle-shaped object, but became rounder and flashed red, blue and white, he said. Mr Singh's sighting follows a spate of similar reports from seven people living in Hainault in September. Mr Singh, of Henley Road, Ilford, said: "It was a clear night and I thought it might be a plane or a helicopter," he said. "When I went back home, my sister and I stood outside to see if we could hear an engine, but it was quiet. "We watched it for about 10 minutes. "It was really bright and low over the sky in the direction of Loxford Park." Have you had a similar experience to Mr Singh?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 24 Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:42:16 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:42:16 -0500 Subject: Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings Source: PRWeb.Com http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/11/prweb314382.htm November 24, 2005 =09 Former Canadian Minister Of Defence Asks Canadian Parliament Asked To Hold Hearings On Relations With Alien "ET" Civilizations A former Canadian Minister of Defence has joined forces with three Non-governmental organizations to ask the Parliament of Canada to hold public hearings on with Alien "ET" Civilizations. Paul Hellyer, Canada=92s Defence Minister from 1963-67 under Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Prime Minister Lester Pearson, publicly stated: "UFOs, are as real as the airplanes that fly over your head." Hellyer warned, "The United States military are preparing weapons which could be used against the aliens, and they could get us into an intergalactic war without us ever having any warning. Mr. Hellyer went on to say, "I'm so concerned about what the consequences might be of starting an intergalactic war, that I just think I had to say something." "Time is on the side of open disclosure that there are ethical Extraterrestrial civilizations visiting Earth," a spokesperson for the Non- Governmental Organizations stated. "Our Canadian government needs to openly address these important issues of the possible deployment of weapons in outer war plans against ethical Extraterrestrial societies." OTTAWA, CANADA (PRWEB) November 24, 2005 -- A former Canadian Minister of Defence and Deputy Prime Minister under Pierre Trudeau has joined forces with three Non-governmental organizations to ask the Parliament of Canada to hold public hearings on Exopolitics -- relations with "ETs." By "ETs," Mr. Hellyer and these organizations mean ethical, advanced extraterrestrial civilizations that may now be visiting Earth. On September 25, 2005, in a startling speech at the University of Toronto that caught the attention of mainstream newspapers and magazines, Paul Hellyer, Canada=92s Defence Minister from 1963-67 under Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Prime Minister Lester Pearson, publicly stated: "UFOs, are as real as the airplanes that fly over your head." Mr. Hellyer went on to say, "I'm so concerned about what the consequences might be of starting an intergalactic war, that I just think I had to say something." Hellyer revealed, "The secrecy involved in all matters pertaining to the Roswell incident was unparalled. The classification was, from the outset, above top secret, so the vast majority of U.S. officials and politicians, let alone a mere allied minister of defence, were never in-the-loop." Hellyer warned, "The United States military are preparing weapons which could be used against the aliens, and they could get us into an intergalactic war without us ever having any warning. He stated, "The Bush administration has finally agreed to let the military build a forward base on the moon, which will put them in a better position to keep track of the goings and comings of the visitors from space, and to shoot at them, if they so decide." Hellyer=92s speech ended with a standing-ovation. He said, "The time has come to lift the veil of secrecy, and let the truth emerge, so there can be a real and informed debate, about one of the most important problems facing our planet today." Three Non-governmental organizations took Hellyer=92s words to heart, and approached Canada=92s Parliament in Ottawa, Canada=92s capital, to hold public hearings on a possible ET presence, and what Canada should do. The Canadian Senate, which is an appointed body, has held objective, well-regarded hearings and issued reports on controversial issues such as same-sex marriage and medical marijuana, On October 20, 2005, the Institute for Cooperation in Space requested Canadian Senator Colin Kenny, Senator, Chair of The Senate Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence, "schedule public hearings on the Canadian Exopolitics Initiative, so that witnesses such as the Hon. Paul Hellyer, and Canadian-connected high level military-intelligence, NORAD- connected, scientific, and governmental witnesses facilitated by the Disclosure Project and by the Toronto Exopolitics Symposium can present compelling evidence, testimony, and Public Policy recommendations." The Non-governmental organizations seeking Parliament hearings include Canada-based Toronto Exopolitics Symposium, which organized the University of Toronto Symposium at which Mr. Hellyer spoke. The Disclosure Project, a U.S.=96 based organization that has assembled high level military-intelligence witnesses of a possible ET presence, is also one of the organizations seeking Canadian Parliament hearings. Vancouver-based Institute for Cooperation in Space (ICIS), whose International Director headed a proposed 1977 Extraterrestrial Communication Study for the White House of former U.S. President Jimmy Carter, who himself has publicly reported a 1969 Close Encounter of the First Kind with a UFO, filed the original request for Canadian Parliament hearings. The Canadian Exopolitics Initiative, presented by the organizations to a Senate Committee panel hearing in Winnipeg, Canada, on March 10, 2005, proposes that the Government of Canada undertake a Decade of Contact. The proposed Decade of Contact is "a 10-year process of formal, funded public education, scientific research, educational curricula development and implementation, strategic planning, community activity, and public outreach concerning our terrestrial society=92s full cultural, political, social, legal, and governmental communication and public interest diplomacy with advanced, ethical Off-Planet cultures now visiting Earth." Canada has a long history of opposing the basing of weapons in Outer Space. On September 22, 2004 Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin declared to the U.N. General Assembly," "Space is our final frontier. It has always captured our imagination. What a tragedy it would be if space became one big weapons arsenal and the scene of a new arms race. Martin stated, "In 1967, the United Nations agreed that weapons of mass destruction must not be based in space. The time has come to extend this ban to all weapons..." In May, 2003, speaking before the Canadian House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs, former Minister of Foreign Affairs of Canada Lloyd Axworthy, stated "Washington's offer to Canada is not an invitation to join America under a protective shield, but it presents a global security doctrine that violates Canadian values on many levels." Axworthy concluded, "There should be an uncompromising commitment to preventing the placement of weapons in space." On February 24, 2005, Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin made official Canada's decision not to take part in the U.S government=92s Ballistic Missile Defence program. Paul Hellyer, who now seeks Canadian Parliament hearings on relations with ETs, on May 15, 2003, stated in Toronto=92s Globe & Mail newspaper, "Canada should accept the long-standing invitation of U.S. Congressman Dennis Kucinich of Ohio to launch a conference to seek approval of an international treaty to ban weapons in space. That would be a positive Canadian contribution toward a more peaceful world." In early November 2005, the Canadian Senate wrote ICIS, indicating the Senate Committee could not hold hearings on ETs in 2005, because of their already crowded schedule. "That does not deter us," one spokesperson for the Non- governmental organizations said, "We are going ahead with our request to Prime Minister Paul Martin and the official opposition leaders in the House of Commons now, and we will re- apply with the Senate of Canada in early 2006.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 24 The 'Alien In The Vault' At The Pentagon From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:17:08 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:43:58 -0500 Subject: The 'Alien In The Vault' At The Pentagon A few weeks ago I mentioned the computer scientist who had seen, as an air force officer, an 'alien in a tank.' Or so he said. I repeated this story when I heard it to an acquaintance of mine, who for years has been researching and writing an important annual report for State. The story amused him, and his first response was to say: Perhaps the body was one of our own experiments that went wrong. That surmise is in line with a recent hypothesis about Roswell. But then he continued: Of course, there are all those stories you hear about the alien in the vault at the Pentagon.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 24 SETI@home Killed Off From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:59:42 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:59:42 -0500 Subject: SETI@home Killed Off Source: The Inquirer - UK http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=27885 23 November 2005 SETI.nul Killed Off Placed in sarcophagus rises again By Nick Farrell Distributed computing experiment SETI.nul will be switched off on December 15 as it becomes part of the Berkeley Open Infrastructure for Network Computing (BOINC). BOINC has been developed at UC Berkeley as a framework for volunteer computing projects like SETI.nul According to a press release, those who are currently using SETI.nul are being asked to visit here for instructions. The workunit totals of users and teams will be frozen at that point, and the final totals will be available on the web. The BOINC site will allow boffins to build other volunteer computing projects in areas like molecular biology, high-energy physics, and climate change study. A spokesSeti said that those who want to keep looking for aliens can do so, but they will also be able to donate computer time studying climate change or other BOINC projects.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 24 Mysterious 'Booms' Rattle Israeli Homes From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 10:06:28 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 10:06:28 -0500 Subject: Mysterious 'Booms' Rattle Israeli Homes Source: YnetNews.Com - Israel http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3173415,00.html 11.22.05 Mysterious 'Booms' Rattle Homes Raanan Ben-Zur Residents report hearing loud blasts in different parts of country, claim their homes shook as result; IDF says in response no unusual military activity that may have caused blasts detected, Seismology Institute says no earthquakes recorded; Rita from Herzliya: I don�t buy it. They should just tell us what is causing these shockwaves and blasts Just three weeks after dozens of readers from across Israel told Ynet about unusually loud �booms� and tremors throughout the night, residents again reported hearing loud boom-like sounds in different parts of the country Tuesday, mainly in coastal regions, claiming their homes shook as a result. Police officials confirmed people reported they heard �explosions,� but added that the source remains unknown. The IDF said in response that no unusual military activity that may have caused the �explosions� was detected, and the Seismology Institute said no earthquakes were recorded. Rita, a resident of Herzliya in central Israel, said, �Suddenly the entire house began to shake; even our cat felt it and began to act in a peculiar manner. It lasted for a few seconds. It was as if someone was forcefully rattling the home�s windows and doors.� 'I don't buy it' However, she said she did not hear any explosions. �The rumbling was similar to last month�s incident, but then it took place at nighttime and we were able to hear the blasts, which were strong,� she said. �Last time they said it was ultra-sonic booms from planes that flew over the Gaza Strip. I don�t buy it. They should just tell us what is causing these shockwaves and blasts. It is getting a bit scary because we do not know what the source is.� Most of those who reported of the blasts reside in the Sharon region, in central Israel; they said the shockwaves came from the direction of the sea. Last month Ynet readers offered several explanations for the mysterious blasts - from an alien invasion to underground nuclear tests. The IDF said at the time the blasts may have resulted from a rare combination of IAF activity over Gaza and a unique weather conditions. An Israel Air Force officer said at the time, �this is an unusual phenomenon in which cold and warm layers are alternately
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 24 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 15:43:58 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 11:55:45 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:54:27 -0500 >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother ><snip> >In the American Asociation for the Advancement of Science >debate published in 1970(?) there is a paper by Lester Grinspoon >and ( ) Persky in which they argue that saucer shapes result >from childhood memories of breasts
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 25 Re: The Lockheed UFO Case - Shough From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 18:02:53 -0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:42:41 -0500 Subject: Re: The Lockheed UFO Case - Shough For any Listerions who may be interested: I opined a few days ago that some features of this case still remained suggestive of superior mirage, in particular an absence of evidence of angular displacement. I argued that the "long shallow climb" described by Johnson would be consistent with a line-of-sight recession and a zero angular rate in elevation. However, Brad Sparks has drawn my attention to evidence from Johnson's report which changes my opinion. Johnson says: "As soon as I was given the glasses, I ran outside and started to focus the glasses on the object, which now was moving fast on a heading between 240=B0 and 260=B0. When I got the glasses focused on the object, it was already moving behind the first layer of haze." I now agree with Sparks that Johnson was, beyond reasonable doubt, describing a change in elevation when he described this "long shallow climb", because only this can explain his statement that he watched it move behind one of the "several thin layers of clouds or haze". In my opinion this is made especially convincing because Johnson elsewhere tells us that the direction of apparent departure of the object away from him (roughly W) was opposite to the direction in which the clouds were moving under the influence of the wind. If the clouds had been moving west then they would have been moving down the sky, and it would have been at least possible for a stationary object to give the illusion of rising behind a cloud when in fact a layer of cloud moving in front of it was actually falling. Even in that case, the angular rate of descent of a band of cloud near the horizon (in contrast to a cloud overhead) would be very small as matter of simple geometry, and during the seconds it took Johnson to run outside with his binoculars the cloud band could only have moved very little. But because the clouds were moving E any cloud movement that _was_ perceptible would have been movement _up_ the sky, and so any relative movement of a stationary object could have given an illusion of a descent, but not of a climb. Hence the object must have had a real positive angular rate in elevation which is calibrated for us quite nicely by the fact of its "moving behind" the approaching cloud as it appeared to climb away. On this ground alone we have to dismiss the already- strained theory of a mirage image. Also, I understand that a more accurate reconstruction based on aircraft speeds and course bearings given in the Blue Book file indicates the lines of sight from Agoura Hills and the WV-2 crossing not quite over Santa Cruz Island, as I suggested, but in the area of Anacapa Island, another much smaller island a little to the east, placing the location initially about 60 miles from the WV-2, reducing to about 40 miles, and no more than 40 miles from Agoura. This seems to be supported by the positional reference given by copilot Roy Wimmer that the object appeared to be hovering somewhere "east of Santa Cruz island" (i.e. displaced to the right of the island as they looked), which tends to further spoil the theory of an extraordinary mirage image of the Santa Cruz mountains (Anacapa is a chain of small islets only reaching a few hundred feet above sea level). Finally, I'm persuaded that the absence of observed lateral motion from both observing sites could be consistent in detail with two triangulated sighting of a mobile object receding westward. The key to this is the timing. Johnson's description of the climb out observed through binoculars still (as I argued before) does not allow us to infer any lateral motion, even though I now concede that there was vertical motion. But remember that Johnson did not see the start of the climb. He broke off observing to take the binoculars from his wife and then ran outside, and by the time he got the glasses on the object it was "already moving fast". This activity presumably took some seconds. For the observers on the aircraft however there was no such hiatus, and they saw the object from the moment it started to move. But in just 10 secs it dwindled below their naked-eye visibility on a heading of about 285 degrees. Meanwhile Johnson was taking the binoculars outside and missing this initial part of the object's motion. About the time he picked up the object again in his 8x binoculars it was already being lost to naked-eye sight from the aircraft. So it turns out that the approximately 30-degree bend in the object's course necessary to offer roughly line of sight motion for both groups of observers is another feature of the case that works as a test of the close internal consistency of the report details. As Brad Sparks apparently has a comprehensive treatment of this whole case in preparation, I don't propose to pursue my analysis any further just now until he produces it or until the full Blue Book file comes available. But as it stands now, the probability of any combination of lenticular cloud(s) and/or mirages causing simultaneous sightings by these multiple expert observers at
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 25 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 18:03:12 -0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:43:55 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 15:43:58 +0000 >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:54:27 -0500 >>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >><snip> >>In the American Asociation for the Advancement of Science >>debate published in 1970(?) there is a paper by Lester Grinspoon >>and ( ) Persky in which they argue that saucer shapes result >>from childhood memories of breasts >Ah! Motherships! And cigars disgorging scoutships? I forbear from expanding on the observation that "Scouting" is something usually done by small boys sent out on missions by upright figures of male authority! But didn't Grinspoon and Persky also propose that there was unusual heat in the debate between sceptics and non- sceptics because it functions as a medium of expression for
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 25 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 15:40:02 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:10:50 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 15:43:58 +0000 >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:54:27 -0500 >>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >><snip> >>In the American Asociation for the Advancement of Science >>debate published in 1970(?) there is a paper by Lester Grinspoon >>and ( ) Persky in which they argue that saucer shapes result >>from childhood memories of breasts >Ah! Motherships! He also rather hilariously claimed that the large cigar shaped craft were phallic symbols... so "father ships". There wasn't
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 25 How To Prove Someone Else Is Stupid From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 14:25:03 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:28:30 -0500 Subject: How To Prove Someone Else Is Stupid Source: Scott Adams' The Dilbert Blog http://tinyurl.com/bydft 11-22-05 Results Of Why I'm Stupid A few days ago I invited the readers of my blog to tell me why I'm stupid. The results are in. If you are new to the Internet, allow me to explain how to debate in this medium. When one person makes any kind of statement, all you need to do is apply one of these methods to make it sound stupid. Then go on the offensive. 1. Turn someone's generality into an absolute. For example, if someone makes a general statement that Americans celebrate Christmas, point out that some people are Jewish and so anyone who thinks that ALL Americans celebrate Christmas is stupid. (Bonus points for accusing the person of being anti-Semitic.) 2. Turn someone's factual statements into implied preferences. For example, if someone mentions that not all Catholic priests are pedophiles, accuse the person who said it of siding with pedophiles. 3. Turn factual statements into implied equivalents. For example, if someone says that Ghandi didn't eat cows, accuse the person of stupidly implying that cows deserve equal billing with Gandhi. 4. Omit key words. For example, if someone says that people can't eat rocks, accuse the person of being stupid for suggesting that people can't eat. Bonus points for arguing that some people CAN eat pebbles if they try hard enough. 5. Assume the dumbest interpretation. For example, if someone says that he can run a mile in 12 minutes, assume he means it happens underwater and argue that no one can hold his breath that long. 6. Hallucinate entirely different points. For example, if someone says apples grow on trees, accuse him of saying snakes have arms and then point out how stupid that is.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 25 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 13:57:48 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 16:49:02 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 15:43:58 +0000 >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:54:27 -0500 >>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >><snip> >>In the American Asociation for the Advancement of Science >>debate published in 1970(?) there is a paper by Lester Grinspoon >>and ( ) Persky in which they argue that saucer shapes result >>from childhood memories of breasts
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 25 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:30:29 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 16:54:26 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 19:34:48 EST >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 03:55:49 -0800 >>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >>>From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:26:07 EST >>>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother <snip> >>>>Source: The Wichita Eagle - Wichita, Kansas, USA >>>>http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/nation/13214050.htm >>>>Sun, Nov. 20, 2005 >>>>Psychologist: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>>>By Richard Morin Washington Post >>>>Accounts of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens >>>>have one eerie similarity. >>Hello Dave, Dave (and no doubt others..) >>This is a perfect example of why I try to stay out of >>psychological discussions. >>- Larry >Larry - >I didn't feel qualified to take the cogent, well-informed, >logical and incisive approach of the others (responses sometimes >worthy of framing!), so I simply took the easier, "good cop with >a case of insanity" approach to Richard Morin's nonsense. <snip> Hello Dave, and thanks for writing. I certainly didn't mean to cast asparagus your way! I try to economize on words. Maybe I should have said that Richard Morin's theories (and similar) are what send me out of the room when psychology rears its head, real or bogus. All I know about psychology is the little retained from general education course(s) required decades ago on my way to a music degree. What I DO know is that relatively few people will pretend expertise in say physics, chemistry, mathematics and the like in a public forum [famous crackpots aside mind you!] They know damned well they will get shot to pieces, and it won't take long. In psychology however, virtually anyone can come up with the most insane BS and get away with it for a little while. The stock Grey Alien as a hard-wired mother image? Why not an ANT trying to snack on your lollypop? The resemblance would be better. Morin is telling us more about himself than anything useful about abductions. This must drive genuine psych people nuts. Psychology is a science after all, even if 98% of what the dumb- sh** public thinks psych is, is totally wrong. Personally I feel much more secure, perhaps falsely so, when nuts-and-bolts matters are being kicked around.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 25 Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Gevaerd From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:31:49 -0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 17:05:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Gevaerd >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:42:50 -0600 >Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:20:29 -0200 >>Subject: Bob Pratt Passes >>This is a very sad note. >>Bob Pratt, a great UFO researcher and a good friend, died last >>Saturday, November 19th. His death is a great loss for Ufology >>worldwide. >>Last Friday, Bob had a heart attack and by Saturday, he was gone. >I am saddened to hear this. I didn't know Bob well, but on the >handful of occasions I met him, I found him to be wonderful >company. >Besides his good sense of humor and wry outlook on life, he was >an encyclopedia's worth of UFO knowledge, a large portion of it >from his own investigations into extraordinary phenomena in >Brazil and elsewhere. He had a sane, balanced, and mature >perspective, and he was everything but the goggle-eyed true >believer of debunking stereotypes. Bob Pratt was one of >ufology's unsung heroes. Indeed! The man was one of the greatest UFO researchers I have
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 25 Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Gevaerd From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:34:57 -0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 17:09:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Gevaerd >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 14:14:00 -0800 >Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <gevaerd.nul> >>Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:20:29 -0200 >>Subject: Bob Pratt Passes <snip> >AJ, >This is terrible news, the first I heard of it. >A definite loss for ufology. Bob helped me locate sightings in >places the Brazilians can't find. (no offense intended). Even to us Brazilians, Larry. Bob told to many of us Brazilian UFO researchers where to find and how to better investigate very significant cases that probably would never be known without his personal efforts. No offense taken at all, my friend.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 25 Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Gevaerd From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:39:30 -0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 17:14:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Gevaerd >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 07:50:05 -0500 >Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <gevaerd.nul> >>Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:20:29 -0200 >>Subject: Bob Pratt Passes >>This is a very sad note. >>Bob Pratt, a great UFO researcher and a good friend, died last >>Saturday, November 19th. His death is a great loss for Ufology >>worldwide. ><snip> >Some years back Tom Tulien and I interviewed Bob for the Sign >Oral History Program of the Sign Historical Group. He was very >happy with the result and his wife liked it and planned to use >it after his passing as a remebrance of Bob. We told him we >hoped that was far in the future. >We met with Bob and his son at Lake Worth during another >research trip, enjoying a long discussion of UFOs and gratefully >accepting of some recordings and transcripts from his >collection. >Tom also travelled to Brazil with Bob where they talked with and >interviewed a number of Brazilian researchers and UFO witnesses. >Bob got on very well with most of his Brazilian colleagues. >Bob was very supportive of the goals of the Sign Historical >Group and shared much of his material with us. >Farewell friend. Thank you for your support and help! Jan, Bob was so greatly appreciated down here in Brazil that Mr. Mario Rangel, a former co-worker and a UFO researcher here started a campaign among all of us to grant Bob Pratt a plaque as a Benemerit Brazilian UFO Researcher, for his countless contributions to the Brazilian UFO Community. Hundreds of my colleagues down here signed the petition. We had a presentation ceremony, during a conference in Brazil, a few
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 25 Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Gevaerd From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:42:02 -0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 17:18:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Gevaerd Let me strongly recommend to all of you:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 25 Bob Pratt's Last E-Mail To Brazilian UFO Magazine From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:52:13 -0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 17:35:37 -0500 Subject: Bob Pratt's Last E-Mail To Brazilian UFO Magazine I'd like to share with you the last e-mail Bob sent me, as it'll be of interest of many UFO researchers on this List. In the message, which I hadn't time to answer - unfortunatelly - Bob was commenting on Operation Saucer, conducted secretly by the military in the Amazon, from September to December 1977. A Few weeks ago, the major TV network in Brazil, Globo TV - the 4th largest in the world - aired an astounding 45 minute documentary about Operation Saucer, recreating facts and attacks by aliens in the Amazon. I served as consultant to it and had permission to have the program entirely subtitled in English. The program is a Spielberg-like quality show, with great effects but a few mistakes that can be easily absorbed in the whole context of the show. It was seen by over 80 million Brazilians and was debated on every list, in every forum here, as well as most of the country's population becaming aware of such things. You can download the English-subtitled documentary for free from the FTP of the Brazilian UFO Magazine, located at: http://www.ufo.com.br/publico/ Once you hit that, click over Linha_Direta_25_Agosto/, and then click again over Program Linha Direta..>. I am sorry that it is a 300 Mb file, but it is the shortest version I could manage to have. Those of you interested in a DVD quality copy of the show, without the subtitles in English, should visit: http://www.ufo.com.br/publico/ then Linha_Direta_25_Agosto/ and then click on VTS_01_1.VOB and VTS_01_2.VOB. These are two parts of the show with 1.5 Gb total. Below is Bob's e-mail about it. A. J. Gevaerd Brazilian UFO Magazine www.ufo.com.br gevaerd.nul ----- Hi A.J. Please see the attached message about Linha Direta's program about Operacao Prato, and let me know what you think. Thank you. Bob bobpratt.nul --- Hello A.J. Thank you for sending me the video of Linha Direta's program on Operacao Prato with English subtitles. I thought the show was very interesting and that the actors do a fine job. I have a problem, though with the script. There were some serious inaccuracies and I wonder if you are aware of them. I am not an expert on Operacao Prato and doubt that anyone is. With the possible exception of Colonel Camilo (head of A2 in Belem in 1977-78), those who did know what happened are now dead, which is a terrible pity because there is much we would like to know about the operation. As I told Michael Weber, Operacao Prato is unique in the history of the UFO phenomenon. It resulted in well-documented proof that UFOs are real. Never before or since has such a long series of sightings and encounters been officially investigated by the government of any country, especially one the size of Brazil. Now if you can get FAB to open those files to the public. The Linha Direta program focused on Hollanda, his actions and reactions, especially about being told to end Operacao Prato. But to me, the story of Operacao Prato was how UFOs dominated the skies around Colares Island and terrified the residents for more than four months. UFOs flew wherever they wanted to with impunity. They appeared in the form of brilliant lights, often in the shape of balls and discs, moving swiftly or slowly or hovering and often executing sharp maneuvers. Sometimes they shot out beams of light that hit people, burning them. At times, UFOs were seen diving into the waters of Marajo Bay and coming out, and sometimes fishermen saw blue lights moving around under the water. The terror in the region was such that mayors of several villages appealed to the Air Force for help. The Air Force, charged with protecting the skies of Brazil, responded by sending a small team of intelligence agents to see what was going on and try to calm the people. =46rom what I was able to learn, the Air Force did not send in a team to study UFOs. Brigadier Protazio, the air base commander, simply wanted to know what was going on and wanted proof that UFOs were flying through the skies. Despite the documented testimonies, photos and films, he told Daniel, Cynthia and me in 1999 that he never got that proof, and dismissed the whole thing as simply a matter of hysteria and a malfunctioning light beacon a kilometer off the Colares beach. (Protazio told us he believed UFOs were real and said he had read General Uchoa's books.) To me, the UFOs and their often hostile actions were the story of Operacao Prato, not Hollanda's reaction to the lights as Linha Direta's program indicated. The major inaccuracies in the Linha Direta program (that I see) are, in brief: 1. The fishing boat incident depicted in the beginning was never part of the Colares series of sightings. 2. The helicopter's encounter with a UFO that caused its rotor blades to stop and nearly crash never happened. 3. No religious procession through the streets was ever attacked. 4. The former mayor of Vigia said FAB set up machineguns and anti-aircraft guns. That didn't happen. 5. The Colares hospital's corridors were never filled with burn victims. The doctor treated 35 to 40 burn victims in some 90 days, or less than one every other day. 6. Hollanda was very interested in what was happening around Colares but he was not obsessed with them nor did he become hysterical. The details: No. 1. The depiction of the fishermen being attacked just before sunrise had nothing to do with Operacao Prato. It was based on an incident that occurred in April 1977 (more than six months before Operacao Prato began) aboard an old wooden fishing boat. The men were not fishermen but wood cutters who had gone to uninhabited Crab Island in the Bay of Sao Marcos, to get wooden poles to sell in Sao Lu=EDs. The island is hundreds of kilometers east of Colares. None of the four men on board saw a light of any kind and no one was zapped by a UFO. Three of the men awoke the next morning to find the fourth dead in his hammock. Two of the survivors were burned, one seriously. The survivors have never learned what happened to them. Dr. Silvio Lago put each of them under hypnosis twice one weekend (without the others present) but was not able to break what he called the mental block that prevented them from revealing what happened that night. The producers of Linha Direta cleverly had one of the "fishermen" say they had to get to Alc=E2ntara the next morning. This was not true. In those days few Brazilians outside of the area ever heard of Alc=E2ntara (several dozen kilometers north of Crab Island), which had once been the colonial capital of Maranhao but in 1977 was little more than a sleepy village (I flew there once). However, as you know, in the late 1980s Brazil built the space port in Alc=E2ntara, of which Brazilians are justly proud. The only reason I can see for the producers' putting that in the program was to lead viewers into linking the incident with something from space. A number of people in the Sao Lu=EDs-Crab Island-Pinheiro area were burned by UFOs in incidents similar to those in Colares and Vigia. The sightings lasted for four months (April, May, June and July 1977) before tapering off, and apparently the UFOs then moved on to the Colares area. Hollanda believed that after leaving the Colares area they went farther west into Amazonas. No. 2. The helicopter's encounter with a UFO never happened. Linha Direta attributed the report to someone named Ant=F4nio Ferreira, who allegedly was on board. But there is nothing in the FAB files about such an incident, nor did Hollanda or Sgt. Pinto ever mention it. I'm sure they would have if it had happened. The only mention of an Ant=F4nio Ferreira in the FAB documents is this: 771123/09:30 to 10:30 - Colares - Ant=F4nio Ferreira, 35, literate, painter, Colares - Airship, reddish on the bottom and clear gray like metal on top, oval-cylindrical in shape, 1,200 meters high about 1,500 meters away, about one meter in apparent size and 50 centimeters in diameter moving SE/NE, moving faster than a jet. like small, wavy pulsing action, spinning. Hollanda did tell us that in Colares a helicopter pilot told him he was going to take off, fly some distance away and then return with his spotlight focused on Colares to trick the inhabitants into thinking a UFO was coming. But the people heard the copter's motor and were not fooled. An old man came up to Hollanda later and said that when the helicopter flew away, a light followed it. Hollanda told this to the pilot. It frightened the pilot, who then chose to stay in Colares for the night and return to Belem the next day in daylight. No. 3. No religious procession through the streets was ever attacked. Such processions did take place, with the people hoping the religious ceremony would help prevent the UFOs from attacking. In 1999 we interviewed Rosio Aranha de Oliveira and members of his family, including a daughter, Ana Celia, who was about six years old in 1977. Ana Celia, by now a school teacher, said: "People made huge bonfires. Schools were closed. Every day at 6 o'clock a "procession" (an oracao) came out of the church. In that time, all of Colares stopped. The school was closed. The police station closed. At 6 o'clock (came) the procession to pray for protection and save the children. The women and children would go to sleep and the men would go out to watch. People and animals were attacked. My mother and I say the same thing. In that time there was no food. No one was fishing, terrible lack of food. And people would not go out to their vegetable gardens for crops. And everybody tried to go around in large groups. Nobody wanted to be alone. At 6 o'clock it got dark and we would go to sleep. At 6, groups of as many as 50 to 60 people would get together in one house, women and children. At night, people saw many UFOs flying and in formation. One time, I never forget this case, I heard men shouting and I ran to the door and opened it and saw many UFOs in formation and suddenly they went in all directions. People began to shoot into the sky- "(Q. At the UFOs?) No, to scare them away. One UFO came near the village just 15 meters high. the objects moved very quickly. The children didn't know what was happening. We only heard from our fathers and the other men what was happening. We didn't know why we were going to other people's houses at night to sleep. At the time I had no reaction to what I was seeing. I dreamed about this and I still sometimes have dreams. For three years. Every few years I remember and begin to dream about it. The dreams are so vivid. The vividness doesn't fade. It was only later that I got scared." Ana Celia and her family stayed in Colares throughout the flap and certainly would have known if any procession was attacked. So would Dr. Wellaide. Ana Celia's father, Rosio? who told me in 1979 that he had seen blue lights moving around under the waters of Marajo Bay ? told us in 1999: "It was rare that we went fishing (in 1977) and didn't see something on the edge of the forest. When a UFO stops over us it's like it is enclosed and then it goes away toward Marajo, and sometimes it goes slowly up and down. It's a red light and it blinks. "The Chupa-chupa began with lights all over Colares. sometimes in shape of a hat, round, disc, like an umbrella. We saw things all over, Bacuri, Ponta do Machadinho, Praia do Correo . They seemed to come from way up high, from many places, from the sky, from the bay, from a horizontal position. "They were huge, and they put out very strong light, like a beam of yellowish light. Everything was yellow. We just saw a big light because it was too bright to see a shape. but it was coming straight toward us. We felt a lot of heat from the light... "The fishermen didn't go to the ocean to fish because they went to the forest to cut wood for the bonfires. The men didn't want to sleep at night because the bicho attacked and they were afraid to sleep, so they lit fires and cooked fish. Many people saw bright lights and fell down, fainted. We wanted to shoot the light. It attacks the nerves, get completely weak." No. 4. Jose Ildone Favacho Soeiro, who was mayor of Vigia in 1977, said in the program that the FAB came in with machineguns and set up antiaircraft guns, etc. Not true. Either he or someone else on the program also said FAB had more than 60 people. Also not true. There were just five agents and Hollanda, and occasionally a couple of doctors and one time a cameraman came from Brasilia. Sgt. Alvaro Pinto dos Santos was one of the intelligence agents in Operacao Prato. The FAB team spent four months investigating, but Pinto was in Colares, off and on, for only about two months. In 1999 he told us: "The people there (in Colares, Vigia) asked for help. They wanted guns to shoot. Operacao Prato started October 22. We were there as much to talk to people. The people thought the UFOs were Japanese things, taking people out of the area so the Japanese could take over the land. People were really scared, terrified. They didn't know what to do. "(Q. Were you chosen for Operacao Prato because you had special skills, like meteorologist, or other training?) No, it was only that we worked in the Second [A-2, the Intelligence section]. It was just that I was at the right place at the right time. I was a sort of a scrivao. We were sent in not because we had any specialties or anything but because we had reports of these happenings scaring people so badly that they were starving and were afraid to go out fishing. "These (agents) were all sergeants. Flavio was a first sergeant. Afterwards, Camilo (then Colonel Camilo Ferraz de Barros, head of A2, who later retired as a brigadier general and moved to a farm in Minas Gerais) sent two doctors. one was a general clinician and the other was a psychiatrist. I don't know the names because I wasn't there then. This was after I was out of the scene that they sent the doctors. doctors of A-2. "(Q. Where did you stay? Hotel, tents?) No, Flavio had a cousin who had a house and they gave the key to them. It was very close to the beach and we would sleep during the day and watched at night. Flavio cooked. he was a good cook. we fixed barbecue, made macaroni. We washed our own clothes in a sweet-water river than ran into the sea there and hung them on bushes. "(Q. Did you use your own vehicles or FAB?) No, we had our own cars. it was a Variant, Volkswagen station wagon . our own cars. "(Q. Did you carry weapons?) No, we weren't even in uniform. We were without arms or uniforms. "(Q. Is it true you had to warn people not to shoot at the UFOs?) Yes, we talked to the people, explained to them that they couldn't shoot at them or things could get worse. "(Q. Did you have special equipment to determine distances and so forth?) Flavio used a theodolite to triangulate. He used a telephoto lens. tape recorders .we had those big reels that went around. and after we recorded it we wrote it out. "(Q. Did you sometimes split up into teams, some men go to this village and others elsewhere?) No, when we went to a place we always went together. When I was there, there were only three of us, but afterwards. there were more. [Hollanda said he had five agents altogether.] "(Q. Did you have radio equipment to stay in touch with the base?) No. We had the tape recorder, the typewriter. cameras and a theodolite. We had nothing. Flavio had a shorthand machine. [Hollanda said they had radios to stay in touch with each other.] "(Q. How did they know when to go from Colares to another village? How would they know when things happened elsewhere?) The people told us. the people knew we were investigating and would coming running to us. and the police would tell us too. So we would go off to where something was happening." No. 5. The Colares hospital's corridors were never filled with burn victims. Dr. Wellaide told Daniel in the late 1980s that she treated about 35 patients. She told me in 1993 that she treated about 40. In a Belem newspaper story last February, Carlos Mendes quoted her as having treated 80 burn victims, but Carlos made a number of mistakes in the story as well as in another one he wrote about that time about the FAB investigation. But with 35 to 40 burn victims in some 90 days, that's less than one every other day. I doubt that the hospital's corridors were ever crowded, with patients grabbing Hollanda's shirt and begging him to help them. (The Linha Direta program also gave the impression that Dr. Wellaide was a key figure in the FAB investigation, and I seriously doubt she was.) No. 6. The program focused on Hollanda and made it seem like he was obsessed with UFOs and almost hysterical at times, and that he sort of went to pieces emotionally after Brigadier Protazio (Protazio Lopes de Oliveira) ordered him to end Operacao Prato. In addition, Petit said in Linha Direta's program that Hollanda was greatly depressed at times (especially after being told to stop investigating the UFOs), but I cannot figure how Petit learned that. I have gone over the transcript of your interview with Hollanda and can find nothing to indicate Hollanda was manic depressive (as others have asserted as well). I talked with Hollanda in 1979, 1980 and 1981 (spending four or five entire days with him in the Amazon on the last occasion) and even though at times he was in civilian clothes he was always a professional military officer who showed no signs of depression or obsession. (I also saw him in 1992 or 1993, and in 1997.) Don't forget also that he died 20 years after the operation was ended! After Operacao Prato he finished his 36 years in the service and rose to the rank of lieutenant colonel before retiring. If he was having such emotional problems, I doubt that he would have been promoted that far. If anyone was obsessed with UFOs, it was Sgt. Flavio. I spent parts of two days with him in 1979 and he was quite enthusiastic about UFOs. After Operacao Prato was ended, he frequently went to Colares, usually taking his family on weekends and vacations. In 1999, Flavio's daughter Francimari told us: "He got everybody in the family enthusiastic about UFOs. We did vigils in Colares. We spent a month there on vacation and stayed in a cousin's house. We spread sheets out on the beach at night and took turns staying up to see if something came in the early hours of the morning. We saw UFOs coming out of the water near the farol (lighthouse beacon a kilometer out in the bay). We could see water dripping down as they came out." I understand one of the other sergeants now lives in the south of Brazil and might be tracked down for further information about Prato. But I have also heard that he has joined a UFO cult, which may or may not color his recollection of what happened during Operacao Prato. Mario Rangel told me that in Revista UFO No. 114 there is an article that said Hollanda was difficult to work with during Operacao Prato. Is that true? Who wrote the story and what was the author's source for that information? Do you know a retired Naval officer named Comm. (or Com.) Jorge, and his wife Leila? They were friends of Hollanda in Cabo Frio and reportedly went to Hollanda's apartment soon after he died and learned that there were reports of neighbors hearing two gunshots, that there was blood all over the room and that Hollanda's hands were tied to the legs of the bed. Supposedly Hollanda and his wife had had a terrible argument with Cecilia, his wife, earlier in the day, that he had gone to a bar and had several beers, that the wife and his daughter Daniela and his infant son went out somewhere and came back later to find Hollanda dead. Not long after, the family disappeared. I understand you have talked with Hollanda's sister (a dentist?) in Belem, either at the time of Hollanda's death or maybe when you went to Belem with the Towers Productions people. What has the sister told you about his death? Have you ever talked to his brother, or found Hollanda's wife and daughter? Enquiring minds want to know. Best wishes,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 25 Re: Mysterious Skin - Watson From: Nigel Watson <nigelwatson1.nul> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:54:49 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 17:39:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Mysterious Skin - Watson Hi, A review of the film Mysterious Skin, about abuse repressed by alien abduction memories, can be viewed at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 25 Re: Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 21:54:06 -0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 17:42:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >Date: Thursday, November 24, 2005 2:42 PM >Subject: Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings >Source: PRWeb.Com >http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/11/prweb314382.htm >November 24, 2005 >Former Canadian Minister Of Defence Asks Canadian Parliament >Asked To Hold Hearings On Relations With Alien "ET" >Civilizations <snip> >"Time is on the side of open disclosure that there are ethical >Extraterrestrial civilizations visiting Earth," The spokesperson >stated. "Our Canadian government needs to openly address these >important issues of the possible deployment of weapons in outer >war plans against ethical ET societies." I am curious about the description "ethical". How does anyone know that the ET societies alleged to be visiting the earth are ethical? Certain abductees might think otherwise.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Bob Pratt Palm Beach Post Obituary From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 05:56:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 05:56:53 -0500 Subject: Bob Pratt Palm Beach Post Obituary Source: The Palm Beach Post - West Palm Beach, Florida, USA http://tinyurl.com/d6nut November 25, 2005 Robert Pratt, Newspaperman, Author Of UFO Books, Articles, Dies At 79 By Michael Browning Staff Writer Earth and outer space, home and visitors from afar, are bound to come up when friends and relatives of Robert V. Pratt come to the Dorsey-E. Earl Smith Funeral Home this afternoon from 4-6 p.m. to meet his widow, Faith, and discuss his passing. Mr. Pratt was an evangelist for UFOs. The Lake Worth resident wrote about them in manifold articles for The National Enquirer. He published two books about them, UFO Danger Zone: Terror and Death in Brazil - Where Next? in 1996 and Night Siege: The Hudson Valley UFO Sightings, in 1987. He traveled the world, often at his own expense, interviewing eyewitnesses to extraterrestrial objects that he described as often behaving cruelly and capriciously, dropping globes of fire, he said, on innocent farmers in Brazil. He never saw one single solitary UFO in his entire life, but he came to believe in them passionately. It was a belief even his own wife did not share, though she stayed married to him for 50 years. "The first 30 years you squabble. The 20 years after that are wonderful," Faith Pratt said Thursday, shedding tears on Thanksgiving Day. "He would leave me notes, saying things like "You are my love." Mr. Pratt was a very curious man. His own self-written obituary, edited by his wife, says he died Monday, November 21, 2005, at a local hospital following a brief illness. He was 79. He worked for many newspapers for 48 years. But the last eight years of his professional career were the strangest. After decades in mainstream journalism, he switched to tabloid journalism and became convinced that UFOs were real. Interest turned to belief. Belief became obsession. Mr. Pratt ultimately claimed to have talked to more than 2,000 people who had had UFO experiences. During the six years he worked as a UFO reporter for the Enquirer, he traveled to Brazil four times. In recognition of his research in Brazil, on May 3, 2003, at a conference in the city of Curitiba in southern Brazil, he was given a diploma naming him an Ufologo Brasileiro Honorario or Honorary Brazilian Ufologist. Seventy-eight Brazilian ufologists signed the diploma, his wife said. She never went with him to Brazil, and she never shared his belief in UFOs. "No," she declared. "I didn't care about them. I cared about him." In addition to his wife, Mr. Pratt is survived by his son, Alan Collins Pratt of New York. Another son, Robert Scott Pratt, died
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 One More Thanksgiving From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 06:16:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 06:16:40 -0500 Subject: One More Thanksgiving Source: The Moorpark Acorn - Thousand Oaks, California, USA http://www.moorparkacorn.com/news/2005/1125/Columns/012.html November 25, 2005 One More Thanksgiving [No Byline - many typos] Yesterday was the third Thanksgiving since the Moorpark Acorn started publication. was a little worried that I mighend up repeating myself but, luckily, life intervened, so here we goOf course, I=92m always thankful for the joy that my kids bring me, good health, just living to another Thanksgiving, and wellthe usual things that most of us are thankful for. Also, I=92m thankful that the firefighters again stopped the fire before it burned the house down, which is also threatening to become a yearly event. Last but not least, I nevewould have amounted to much if it hadn=92t been for my wife who has stood by me all these yearsalthough I=92m sure that nevehaving a gun in the house althese years didn=92t hurt my chances any. I suppose that a lot of us give thanks for things that others might not find important and vice versa. I suppose that this comes from the different ways that we see the world around usAs an illustration, this yeaI=92m also thankful that no aliens=97the outer space type, nothe across the border type=97 have landed here in MoorparkI=92ll tell you why. A couple of weeks ago, jusbefore we had the rains, I was out in the back yard, just a little after dusk. As I looked toward the western heavens on this particular night, I saw a bright lighthat appeared to dim and then shoot off to the left, only to dim again and shoot back to the right. It was unlike anything had seen before. I was becoming quite concerned. Was it a flying saucer, a real UFO? As I watched the spectacle, I told myself thathere had to be a scientific explanation for this. I caught my breath and began a logicacourse of inquiry. Once I calmed down, I remembered that it was overcasthat night. I also remembered that Venus was the Evening StarI decided that the optical illusion was caused by the fact that the cloud cover was not solid. As the clouds passed over, little openings in the cloud cover would expose Venus, then the clouds would cover Venus up while at the same time exposing another star located to the right of Venus. This gave the effect of motion between the two stationary objects. For a moment, I was relieved, but then I thought, what if there was no other star up there. Again, my mind started to race; I needed more evidence. I rushed into the house and headed directly for the kitchen. I threw open the refrigerator door and heaved a sigh of relief when I saw that there were still 11 beers left over from the pack of 12 we had bought a few days earlier. This proved that I was at least 10 beers away from a sighting and at least a half a case away from a true abduction. I was satisfied that I had arrived at a logical explanation for what I had just seen. All of this was the result of an overactive imagination and a cloudy sky, just a few nights after watching =93Close Encounters of the Third Kind=94 on television. On the one hand, it was a little unnerving, but on the other, it shows how a little thought will always lead one to the correct answer. Although, once the sky cleared, I noticed that there was no star to the right of Venus. So, it wasn=92t a star; it must have been an airplane. Anyway, on Thanksgiving, I was thankful that no other worldly
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Synovate Survey Quantifies Asian Space Beliefs From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 06:22:11 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 06:22:11 -0500 Subject: Synovate Survey Quantifies Asian Space Beliefs Source: AgencyFaqs.Com - New Delhi, India http://www.agencyfaqs.com/news/company_news/Corporate/5869.html November 24 2005 Synovate Survey Quantifies Asian Space Beliefs Company Release Alien encounters and UFO sightings, along with a fascination for outer space, are alive and strong in Asia according to survey results released by leading global market research company, Synovate. Synovate Director, Scott Lee, said the recent successful Chinese space mission inspired Synovate to explore Asian perceptions of space, resulting in some out-of-this-world findings on people's attitudes, space travel desires and extraterrestrial experiences. The survey covered 5,500 respondents in China, Hong Kong, India, Indonesia and Korea. Extraterrestrial experiences "Asians are clearly convinced that we are not alone in our universe, with more than six out of ten people (64%) surveyed across all countries believing that intelligent life exists on planets other than earth," he said. "Personal extraterrestrial experiences are also far more common than expected with 10% of Asians believing that they have seen a UFO and a further 3% believing that they have had an encounter with aliens from another planet. "When applied across the enormous populations of the countries surveyed, that is over 250 million UFO sightings and more than 80 million alien encounters," added Mr Lee. Chinese (81%) and Hong Kong residents (70%) are the most likely to believe in intelligent life outside of earth while UFO sightings are more common in India (13%), Korea (10%) and China (9%). Four per cent of residents in Hong Kong reported having seen a UFO. Visitors from other worlds land more often in Indonesia, where 6% of respondents believe they have had an encounter with aliens from another planet, and Korea, where 8% of residents aged 50 to 64 reported making contact with alien counterparts. Synovate Indonesia Managing Director, Robby Susatyo, said the high rate of alien experiences in Indonesia may be connected to their culture's firm belief in ghosts. "Indonesians, like many Asians, hold a strong belief in the existence of ghosts," he said. "It may well be that people believe their experiences with ghosts are similar to aliens, while many are also of the opinion that all creatures from another world are really siblings anyway." Synovate India Managing Director Alok Shanker also believed that the large number of UFO sightings in India related to the nation�s majority Hindu religion. "Mystical flying chariots are a common component of the Indian belief system and most Indians have faith in supernatural powers, both of which may help to account for the large number of UFO sightings in India," he said. Space tourism Although many Asians believe that life exists on other planets, they are not so keen to go exploring these unknown worlds themselves just yet. Sixty one per cent of respondents across Asia said they would not want to travel to outer space if given the option, with the Chinese (76%) and Indonesians (71%) the least adventurous populations when it comes to space travel. Indians are the only people who appear keen to explore their astral surroundings, with 60% saying they would like to travel to outer space one day. "Indian Astronaut Kalpana Chawla, a crew member aboard the ill- fated Columbia Space Shuttle Mission, is a national hero and admired by Indians everywhere for the dedication she showed in following her dream of travelling to space," said Mr Shanker. "Her memory and commitment have helped inspire many Indians to also dream of one day exploring the stars." Despite a relatively low regional enthusiasm for personal space travel, 64% of Asians are certain that space tourism will become a big industry in the future with the Chinese (72%) and Koreans (69%) the most convinced. "The Chinese awareness of space tourism has no doubt been engendered by the recent success of their first manned space flight, the Shenzhou-5, which has inspired great national pride," said Mr Lee. "However, Hong Kong residents are the most likely contenders for any fledgling space tour with 76% very willing to pay US$20 million to travel to the moon if they had the money." A significant number of Indians (38%) and Chinese (35%) were also prepared to spend a substantial sum for a lunar landing, while practical Indonesians (21%) and Koreans (20%) believe such spending to be flights of fancy. Mr Lee said the willingness to spend large amounts on space travel reflected the general spending characteristics of these populations. "Hong Kong residents, renowned as status-conscious consumers, would view a US$20 million trip to the moon as a very exclusive holiday indeed," he said. "Koreans on the other hand are far more practical and realistic when it comes to their spending and so are more likely to reject such extravagance." Astronaut ambitions While children in the region, motivated by Chinese astronauts Fei Junlong and Nie Haisheng, may harbour dreams of one day having a career in space, their parents have alternative plans with only 42% of Asians regionally wanting their children to become an astronaut. Residents in Hong Kong (61%) and India (56%) are far more likely to want their children to become astronauts compared to people in China (34%). Koreans are the least enthusiastic about having a space travelling child with only 19% supportive of such a career and 61% firmly against their children becoming astronauts. Mr Lee said that regardless of space travel plans, parental ambitions or personal experience, it is clear that people in Asia remain fascinated with space and the great unknown of our universe. "We may be no closer to proving the existence or otherwise of aliens and UFOs," he said "But with 62% of Asians agreeing that man walking on the moon was one of the greatest achievements of the 20th century, space travel and the possibility of extraterrestrial life clearly continue to capture people�s imaginations right around the world." For further details: Madhurima Bhatia Communications Manager, India
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 'Blood-Sucking Creature' Killing Sheep In Fujairah From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:02:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:02:40 -0500 Subject: 'Blood-Sucking Creature' Killing Sheep In Fujairah Source: Khaleej Times Online - Dubai, United Arab Emirates http://tinyurl.com/8ff8n 24 November 2005 'Blood-Sucking Creature' Killing Sheep In Fujairah By Salah Al Debarky FUJAIRAH =97 Rumours of a blood-sucking vampire-like creature preying on sheep have turned the sleepy Fujairah suburb of Sakmakam into a favourite hunting ground for scoop-seeking journalists. And it's not just hordes of journalists from both print and electronic media who are making a beeline for the suburb nestling at the foothills, but also car-loads of cops and officials from Fujairah Municipality seeking to unravel the mystery. Ask the residents about the 'vampire,' and pat comes the reply: "The creature takes the sheep by the neck, sucks the blood and leaves them dead." Some, however, contest the 'vampire' theory, stating that it was
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 12:06:52 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:04:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? - Ledger >From: Gary Matteson <mystrius.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:01:30 -0600 >Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:27:07 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Who Was Philip J. Klass? >>While writing Dark Object I delved into the origins of >>domestic intelligence in the US related to [actually driven by] >>Canadian/British Intel beginning back in 1939 and some of the >>curious links that continued after the war. All of it got cut >>from the final draft and explained as "it would be of no >>interest >>to the American reader." >Such a cavalier attitude. Not your fault of course; too bad no >one asked me first as I would have found that information of >interest. Perhaps I am the exception rather than the rule. Hi Gary, It might be that you are. My purpose was not to involve intelligence as a faction avidly pursuing the phenomenon but to show the links that were created during the war and post WWII. These, I think continued for some time after the war [Old Boys's
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Aliens On Earth Identified? From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 13:29:16 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:05:21 -0500 Subject: Aliens On Earth Identified? Hi Everyone! If paleontologist and author Peter Ward is right about viruses (those pesky things that look like tiny moon landers and which play no beneficial role in Earth's ecology), then we have our proof that "they" (these viruses - miniature self-replicating aliens from space) are already here! Forget about "Star Wars" and its potential of protecting us from UFOs. I propose we should begin a "Molecular Wars" crash program to counterattack against the microscopic invaders who are here and have the potential of wiping out all 6 billion of us and taking over our planet.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 15:19:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:07:18 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: Martin Shough <mshough.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 18:03:12 -0000 >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 15:43:58 +0000 >>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:54:27 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>><snip> >>>In the American Asociation for the Advancement of Science >>>debate published in 1970(?) there is a paper by Lester Grinspoon >>>and ( ) Persky in which they argue that saucer shapes result >>>from childhood memories of breasts >>Ah! Motherships! >And cigars disgorging scoutships?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 15:20:39 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:09:15 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 15:40:02 -0400 >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 15:43:58 +0000 >>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:54:27 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>><snip> >>>In the American Asociation for the Advancement of Science >>>debate published in 1970(?) there is a paper by Lester Grinspoon >>>and ( ) Persky in which they argue that saucer shapes result >>>from childhood memories of breasts >>Ah! Motherships! >He also rather hilariously claimed that the large cigar shaped >craft were phallic symbols... so "father ships". There wasn't >any supporting data for either claim. ...A woman is a woman, but a good cigar is a smoke? <LOL - I kill me>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 16:27:14 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:11:50 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:30:29 -0800 >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>From: Dave Morton <Marspyrs.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 19:34:48 EST >>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 03:55:49 -0800 >>>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>>Hello Dave, Dave (and no doubt others..) >>>This is a perfect example of why I try to stay out of >>>psychological discussions. >>I didn't feel qualified to take the cogent, well-informed, >>logical and incisive approach of the others (responses sometimes >>worthy of framing!), so I simply took the easier, "good cop with >>a case of insanity" approach to Richard Morin's nonsense. ><snip> >Hello Dave, and thanks for writing. >I certainly didn't mean to cast asparagus your way! >I try to economize on words. >Maybe I should have said that Richard Morin's theories (and >similar) are what send me out of the room when psychology rears >its head, real or bogus. Oh Jeez - I misread you too, Mr. Hatch and I apologize, sincerely.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:37:14 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:14:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Ledger >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:42:02 -0200 >Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes >Let me strongly recommend to all of you: >UFO Danger Zone: Terror & Death In Brazil by Bob Pratt >http://tinyurl.com/cbo2k I was saddened to hear of Bob's passing. I have that book, A.J. It was a great read, truly exciting and thought provoking. I had e-mailed him a couple of years ago about one of the cases therein. He certainly walked the walk of the true, not just talked the talk of an investigator of the phenomenon. Would that there were more like him.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Re: Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:07:11 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:16:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 21:54:06 -0000 >Subject: Re: Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >>Date: Thursday, November 24, 2005 2:42 PM >>Subject: Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings >>Source: PRWeb.Com >>http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/11/prweb314382.htm >>November 24, 2005 >>Former Canadian Minister Of Defence Asks Canadian Parliament >>Asked To Hold Hearings On Relations With Alien "ET" >>Civilizations ><snip> >>"Time is on the side of open disclosure that there are ethical >>Extraterrestrial civilizations visiting Earth," The spokesperson >>stated. "Our Canadian government needs to openly address these >>important issues of the possible deployment of weapons in outer >>war plans against ethical ET societies." >I am curious about the description "ethical". How does anyone >know that the ET societies alleged to be visiting the earth are >ethical? <snip> I had the same reaction to the term. How does Helllyer know that these "ET societies" are ethical, and what is his understanding of the concept? It isn't ethical (not to say moral) for a physician to euthanize his patients, and it isn't ethical for a lawyer to divulge his
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Friedman From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:21:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:20:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Friedman >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:31:49 -0200 >Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 09:42:50 -0600 >>Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes >>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:20:29 -0200 >>>Subject: Bob Pratt Passes >>>This is a very sad note. >>>Bob Pratt, a great UFO researcher and a good friend, died last >>>Saturday, November 19th. His death is a great loss for Ufology >>>worldwide. >>>Last Friday, Bob had a heart attack and by Saturday, he was gone. >>I am saddened to hear this. I didn't know Bob well, but on the >>handful of occasions I met him, I found him to be wonderful >>company. >>Besides his good sense of humor and wry outlook on life, he was >>an encyclopedia's worth of UFO knowledge, a large portion of it >>from his own investigations into extraordinary phenomena in >>Brazil and elsewhere. He had a sane, balanced, and mature >>perspective, and he was everything but the goggle-eyed true >>believer of debunking stereotypes. Bob Pratt was one of >>ufology's unsung heroes. >Indeed! The man was one of the greatest UFO researchers I have >ever met, responsible for collecting and investigating some of >the most scary UFO cases of all times. And yet, he kept himself >always humble and anonymous with his great achievements. Bob was indeed an outstanding researcher and an outstanding person. Over the last several years I have mentioned his name often in conjunction with disinformation specialist Colonel Richard Weaver's false claim in the "Roswell Report: Truth vs. fiction in the New Mexico Desert" that the story first came to light in an article in the National Inquirer strongly suggesting to any reader that Jesse Marcel must have gone to the Inquirer - many others picked up on and repeated this false claim - and also by implication suggesting I get my UFO witness leads from that newspaper. The facts are that the article appeared in 1980 after Bill Moore and I had essentially completed the research that showed up in The Roswell Incident. I had met Bob at MUFON meetings and gave him Jesse's contact information which he acted upon. I have often said that his articles were usually far more accurate than those about UFOs in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 ET Ethics [was: Hellyer Asks Canadian From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 02:10:58 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:23:53 -0500 Subject: ET Ethics [was: Hellyer Asks Canadian >From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 21:54:06 -0000 >Subject: Re: Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >>Date: Thursday, November 24, 2005 2:42 PM >>Subject: Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings >>Source: PRWeb.Com >>http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/11/prweb314382.htm <snip> >>"Time is on the side of open disclosure that there are ethical >>Extraterrestrial civilizations visiting Earth," The spokesperson >>stated. "Our Canadian government needs to openly address these >>important issues of the possible deployment of weapons in outer >>war plans against ethical ET societies." >I am curious about the description "ethical". How does anyone >know that the ET societies alleged to be visiting the earth are >ethical? >Certain abductees might think otherwise. >What does Hellyer propose to do should they turn out to be >unethical? Would it then be okay for us to deploy weapons of >mass destruction against them? We hardly want unethical beings >threatening us here on earth. Thank you Christopher Allan. I have argued the same point for years. We have people giving messages from the benevolent 'Space Brothers' etc. and as far as I'm concerned if there ain't a messenger, there ain't a message. It avoids the scams and snakeoil. We've also people who just assume that any species achieveing a state of utilizing advanced technologies has also risen to a point of benevolence from our point of view. Heck, a quick glance at our own society should tell us where that theory is about as sound as tying a carrot to the horse's tail. Last night on the news I thought I was watching rioting in some godforsaken country and realized it was American shoppers trampling one another for laptops and XBoxes. See what technology can bring out in a guy? :) Advanced technology is just that. Has nothing to do with ethics or morality. Bottom line to all that is communication. If the high tech guy don't wanna talk to you, that says a lot about him and one's self. Heck, even we'll cuss out a trout that got away.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 ET Might Be A Malicious Hacker From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:32:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:32:06 -0500 Subject: ET Might Be A Malicious Hacker Source: The Guardian - London, UK http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,3605,1650295,00.html Friday November 25, 2005 Scientists, Be On Guard ... ET Might Be A Malicious Hacker Ian Sample Science Correspondent As if spotty teenagers releasing computer viruses on to the internet from darkened rooms were not enough of a headache. According to a scientific report, planet Earth's computers are wide open to a virus attack from Little Green Men. The concern is raised in the next issue of the journal Acta Astronautica by Richard Carrigan, a particle physicist at the US Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Illinois. He believes scientists searching the heavens for signals from extra- terrestrial civilisations are putting Earth's security at risk, by distributing the jumble of signals they receive to computers all over the world. The search for extra-terrestrial intelligence (SETI) project, based at the University of California in Berkeley, uses land- based telescopes to scour the universe for electromagnetic waves. Just as stray radio and TV broadcasts are now zooming away from Earth at the speed of light, the SETI scientists hope to pick up stray signals, or even intentional interplanetary broadcasts, emitted from other civilisations. All signals picked up by SETI are broken up and sent across the internet to a vast band of volunteers who have signed up for a SETI screensaver, which allows their computers to crunch away at the signals, when they are not at their desks. So far, the only signals detected are bursts of radiation from stars and a murmur of background noise left over from the big bang. But, says Dr Carrigan, improved telescopes and faster computers mean scientists are ever more likely to detect a signal from extra-terrestrials. In his report, entitled Do potential SETI signals need to be decontaminated?, he suggests the SETI scientists may be too blase about finding a signal. "In science fiction, all the aliens are bad, but in the world of science, they are all good and simply want to get in touch." His main concern is that, intentionally or otherwise, an extra-terrestrial signal picked up by the SETI team could cause widespread damage to computers if released on to the internet without being checked. Computer scientists argue that to hack a computer, or write a virus that will infect it, requires a knowledge of how the computer and the software it is running work: a computer on Earth is going to be as alien to the aliens as they would be to us. But Dr Carrigan says there is still a risk. Rather than dismiss his concerns, Dr Carrigan wants the SETI scientists to build safety features into their network to act as
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Alien Intelligence In Computational Universe From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:44:55 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:44:55 -0500 Subject: Alien Intelligence In Computational Universe Source: New Scientist Magazine - UK http://tinyurl.com/cwhw8 26 November 2005 Article Preview Magazine issue 2527 Looking For Alien Intelligence In The Computational Universe Marcus Chown The wisdom of alien civilisations may be just a mouse click away - New Scientist explores Stephen Wolfram's novel route to finding ET IN The shadows of Mount Shasta and Lassen Peak volcanoes in northern California, dozens of radio telescopes are gearing up to search for extraterrestrials. Thousands of kilometres away in Boston, Massachusetts, Stephen Wolfram has the same goal in mind. But unlike the astronomers working at Hat Creek observatory, Wolfram's approach has no need for telescopes. Instead of scanning the heavens for alien radio broadcasts, he thinks we should be looking much closer to home. Much, much closer: ET could be living or working with you. But the truly amazing thing about Wolfram's claim is that he believes all the knowledge we stand to gain from an extraterrestrial intelligence - surely the best reason for getting to know the alien in the first place - is already ours for the taking. We don't have to find ET; we can start the search for this ultimate knowledge right now. Advanced civilisation could ... The complete article is 2273 words long.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 DVD Review 'Lubbock Lights' From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:51:32 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:51:32 -0500 Subject: DVD Review 'Lubbock Lights' Source: The Oklahoman - Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, USA http://www.oklahoman.net/article/1686592/ Fri November 25, 2005 DVD Review: 'Lubbock Lights' Gene Triplett Director Amy Maner's thoughtful, poetic, often hilarious and visually splendid documentary on West Texas music probes a beautiful mystery: How could such a stark, treeless, lonely- looking landscape inspire music of the kind that's come from such locals as Bob Wills, Buddy Holly, Roy Orbison, Waylon Jennings or Tommy X. Hancock? It's a tradition of distinctive song and sound carried on in more recent years by a newer generation of homegrown talent including Joe Ely, Jimmie Dale Gilmore and Butch Hancock (who sometimes come together as the groundbreaking Flatlanders), Terry Allen, Jon Dee Graham, Lloyd Maines and daughter Natalie Maines of the Dixie Chicks. The film alternates between performance footage of the latter- day artists (34 songs in all) and funny, philosophical interviews as they grapple with the question at hand. Graham says the music is a response to "the violent emptiness" of the land: You let it drive you crazy, or you make art to brighten the environment. David Byrne, who fell in love with Lubbock when Talking Heads played there in the late '70s, praises the Flatlanders as being "for Texas music what the Velvet Underground was for New York." In this big-sky country known for its UFO sightings, Ely says of his colleagues, "The theory that they came from outer space holds up pretty well."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 06:46:40 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 08:00:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Lehmberg >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:37:14 -0400 >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Gevaerd >>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:42:02 -0200 >>Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes >>Let me strongly recommend to all of you: >>UFO Danger Zone: Terror & Death In Brazil by Bob Pratt >>http://tinyurl.com/cbo2k >I was saddened to hear of Bob's passing. >I have that book, A.J. It was a great read, truly exciting and >thought provoking. I had e-mailed him a couple of years ago >about one of the cases therein. >He certainly walked the walk of the true, not just talked the >talk of an investigator of the phenomenon. Would that there were >more like him. Had you noticed how the mainstream has spun this fine, _fine_ man as a writer of National Inquirer tabloid articles and all that _that_ implies? Does anyone need further evidence with regard to the corrupted and hijacked quality of the aforementioned 'mainstream', how undependable and betraying it is, how cowardly, how shallow, how irrelevant? To what degree it should be beneath our consideration, concern, or contempt?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 04:33:34 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 08:04:30 -0500 Subject: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! Hello All, Something possibly urgent... Can somebody mirror and/or archive all the pages on Bob Pratt's website? According to an obituary, his wife has no interest in UFOs at all. If nobody paying BOTH hosting and domain registration fees, his site will vanish without a trace, its contents irretrievable. http://www.bobpratt.org/ (index.html file) Whoever takes on the task should be careful to save the images too. That's all too easy as anyone who's had their images ripped already knows. At first squint, it looks like a one-page website, but that's not so. A site-search on Google alone found 67 pages! Here are some of the others: www.bobpratt.org/munch.html www.bobpratt.org/neverseen.html www.bobpratt.org/colares.html www.bobpratt.org/easing.html www.bobpratt.org/hollanda.html www.bobpratt.org/salute2.html www.bobpratt.org/aboutthissite.html www.bobpratt.org/hynek.html www.bobpratt.org/damnedthing.html .. and so on. That's the first 10 of some 67 pages. To see the full compliment, you want Google's ADVANCED search page: http://www.google.com/advanced_search In the top box, just enter the word UFO. No quotes. Three more boxes down plus four lines below that is DOMAIN. Enter: [Only] return results from this domain [www.bobpratt.org] .. where [Only] is the default entry in a small drop-down box, and [www.bobpratt.org] is the box where you type in the domain. Save entire pages, again with all images. Some of them are priceless. Keep this all in one large folder, both .html files and images. Note that Bob used .html rather than .htm extensions, and carefully observe upper/lower case in all URLs. Most images are .jpg type, but check each one. We can figure out what to do with this later, but for the love of pete, I mean Pratt, snatch the files before they evaporate!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Bob Pratt Palm Beach Condolences From: Pedro Cunha <pedro.cunha.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 10:58:12 -0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 08:11:50 -0500 Subject: Bob Pratt Palm Beach Condolences Hello All, You that may wish to leave a message in the Palm Beach Post condolences guest book for Bob Pratt, at: http://www.legacy.com/Link.asp?Id=GB15748240X +--------------------------------------------------------+ Pedro Luz Cunha
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Hayes From: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 05:34:12 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 09:07:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Hayes >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 04:33:34 -0800 >Subject: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! >Something possibly urgent... >Can somebody mirror and/or archive all the pages on Bob >Pratt's website? Hi Larry, I can do this and place it in a subirectory of the UFOINFO site in the same way as I do for UFO Roundup and Don Johnson's "Encounters With Aliens On This Day" Is it possible to find out if there will be any copyright problems taking the material? To be honest I have already downloaded the site so that I could refer to the information when needed. On the few occasions I was in contact with Bob he was really helpful and a genuinely nice person. A sad loss.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Re: Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 08:26:58 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 15:18:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings >From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:07:11 -0500 >Subject: Re: Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings >>From: Christopher Allan <cda.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 21:54:06 -0000 >>Subject: Re: Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers - <UFO-UpDates.nul> >>>Date: Thursday, November 24, 2005 2:42 PM >>>Subject: Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings >>>Source: PRWeb.Com >>>http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/11/prweb314382.htm >>>November 24, 2005 >>>Former Canadian Minister Of Defence Asks Canadian Parliament >>>Asked To Hold Hearings On Relations With Alien "ET" >>>Civilizations >><snip> >>>"Time is on the side of open disclosure that there are >>>ethical Extraterrestrial civilizations visiting Earth," The >>>spokesperson stated. "Our Canadian government needs to openly >>>address these important issues of the possible deployment of >>>weapons in outer war plans against ethical ET societies." >>I am curious about the description "ethical". How does anyone >>know that the ET societies alleged to be visiting the earth are >>ethical? ><snip> >I had the same reaction to the term. How does Helllyer know >that these "ET societies" are ethical, and what is his >understanding of the concept? >It isn't ethical (not to say moral) for a physician to >euthanize his patients, and it isn't ethical for a lawyer to >divulge his client's private communications. How would one apply >such standards to God knows what, from who knows where? Hello Pavel: Before we can even begin to discuss "alien ethics", I think we should settle some simpler, more basic matters, like: 1) Are they really here? 2) Do they observe the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, the Kama Sutra or other recognizable sources of moral authority? 3) Do they have enough fiber in their diets? Until these and similar questions are answered, I think its a bit silly to go on about 'alien ethics'. For all we know, alien pornography consists of nothing but pix of broccoli and tomato plants. Any sensible person needs to know these things before he/she can make moral observations about space aliens.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 09:03:01 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 15:23:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Hatch >From: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 05:34:12 -0800 (PST) >Subject: Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 04:33:34 -0800 >>Subject: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! >>Something possibly urgent... >>Can somebody mirror and/or archive all the pages on Bob >>Pratt's website? >I can do this and place it in a subirectory of the UFOINFO site >in the same way as I do for UFO Roundup and Don Johnson's >"Encounters With Aliens On This Day" >Is it possible to find out if there will be any copyright >problems taking the material? >To be honest I have already downloaded the site so that I could >refer to the information when needed. >On the few occasions I was in contact with Bob he was really >helpful and a genuinely nice person. A sad loss. Hello John: Good to hear from you. I just spent the last 3 hours downloading everything I could from the same bobpratt.org site. Copyright issues will probably not be worked out until somebody contacts the widow, and this is the worst possible time for that. My point is/was simply to capture those wonderful pages before they vanish. I did just that, at least I hope so. I downloaded 71 pages (Google only shows 67) for 'UFO' plus the site: requirement. I found the odd 4 (including his wonderful page of how to pronounce Brazilian in the Outback) by substituting the test word 'UFO' with the definite article 'the'. Duh! Half the battle was stopping myself from reading Bob's pages themselves! This guy can write... but what comes across is a really good and likeable guy who takes pix, doesn't believe everything he hears, but will take a deep look if something does look interesting and (surprise!) he isn't an ass. Just the opposite. I still think its important for you and others to capture the Pratt pages and images. The more copies, the less the chances that something gets lost. I was really surprised in a way. I thought I had checked out his site. There are tons of stuff I missed, and probably lots of sightings I should have indexed but didn't. I was pretty much unaware of his work in the Phillipines for one thing. The more I look, the more I see what a good man we have lost here. I see that he took Tom Tulien along on some of his forays. Maybe Tom can tell us more. Best wishes
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Dickenson From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:33:09 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 15:25:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Dickenson >From: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 05:34:12 -0800 (PST) >Subject: Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 04:33:34 -0800 >>Subject: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! >>Can somebody mirror and/or archive all the pages on Bob >>Pratt's website? >I can do this and place it in a subirectory of the UFOINFO site >in the same way as I do for UFO Roundup and Don Johnson's >"Encounters With Aliens On This Day" <snip> >To be honest I have already downloaded the site so that I could >refer to the information when needed. >On the few occasions I was in contact with Bob he was really >helpful and a genuinely nice person. A sad loss. Right John, And so he was with my requests. About his pages - will you be letting us know? I bet there are more folks with links to Bob's pages.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 26 Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 12:52:04 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 15:27:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Groff >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 04:33:34 -0800 >Subject: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! >Hello All, >Something possibly urgent... >Can somebody mirror and/or archive all the pages on Bob Pratt's >website? <snip> Larry, Done. I imported his site to: http://terrygroff.com/bob_pratt/index.html. Although there were several pages, there was only one directory to import from. I even managed to maintain the mouseover effects on the main page. It would be helpful if someone would peruse it to see if I missed anything.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 27 Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Hayes From: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 20:50:23 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:03:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Hayes >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul >Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 09:03:01 -0800 >To: ufoupdates.nul, >Subject: Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! <snip> >Copyright issues will probably not be worked out until somebody >contacts the widow, and this is the worst possible time for >that. >My point is/was simply to capture those wonderful pages before >they vanish. Hi Larry, Looks like I slightly misunderstood you, but I guess that's what happens when I try to reply to List mail while at work. As you rightly said this is not the time to be asking Bob's widow about the website or anything else to do with UFOs. I'm sure there must be a lot of research papers that were in Bob's possession the fate of which must wait until an appropriate time. >Half the battle was stopping myself from reading Bob's pages >themselves! I know exactly what you mean Larry, many a time I have gone to Bob's site to look something up and some time later found myself still reading. I will keep the files and see what the outcome is, who knows there might be a way to preserve the site as it is under it's original domain name which will be the best way to remember Bob. Best wishes, John Hayes webmaster.nul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 27 Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Hayes From: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 20:57:14 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:12:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Hayes >From: Ray Dickenson <ray.dickenson.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:33:09 +0000 >Subject: Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! >>From: John Hayes <webmaster.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 05:34:12 -0800 (PST) >>Subject: Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! <snip> >Right John, >And so he was with my requests. >About his pages - will you be letting us know? I bet there are >more folks with links to Bob's pages. Will do Ray, as Larry said now is not the time to speak to Bob's widow, to be honest I have no way of contacting her and would prefer that to be left to those who know the family. For now I prefer to keep the files on my hard drive and wait for someone to get permission to use the files, whoever that might be. Best wishes, John Hayes webmaster.nul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 27 Re: Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 16:33:31 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:56:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings >From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 08:26:58 -0800 >Subject: Re: Hellyer Asks Canadian Parliament For Hearings >Hello Pavel: >Before we can even begin to discuss "alien ethics", I think we >should settle some simpler, more basic matters, like: >1) Are they really here? >2) Do they observe the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, the Kama >Sutra or other recognizable sources of moral authority? >3) Do they have enough fiber in their diets? >Until these and similar questions are answered, I think its a >bit silly to go on about 'alien ethics'. >For all we know, alien pornography consists of nothing but pix >of broccoli and tomato plants. Any sensible person needs to know >these things before he/she can make moral observations about >space aliens. Hi Larry, The pornography of broccoli? The Kama Brassica? If aliens really exist, do they have sense of ironic humor? There's a kind of naive thinking about these hypothetical entities which imagines them as more or less like us, with the same motives and instincts, but with better machines. Is that very likely? If biololgical, they may, at least at some stage of their history, have been subject to the rules of Darwinian fitness.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 27 Senate Pressured To Hold Hearings On ET From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 14:02:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 14:02:10 -0500 Subject: Senate Pressured To Hold Hearings On ET Source: The Edmonton Sun - Alberta, Canada Senate Pressured To Hold Hearings On ET November 26, 2005 A number of groups have joined forces with former Canadian Defence Minister Paul Hellyer in urging Parliament to hold public hearings on 'exopolitics' - or relations with extraterrestrials (ETs). Three non-governmental organizations (NGOs) were reacting to a speech made by Hellyer in September in Toronto in which he warned that "UFOs are as real as the airplanes that fly over your head." Hellyer said he is concerned the United States is preparing weapons for use against the aliens and could get the whole world into an "intergalactic war." According to Hellyer, the Americans' interest in returning to the moon is in part based on the desire to build a forward military base there. The three organizations backing Hellyer's request for hearings are the Institute for Co-operation in Space (ICIS), the Toronto Exopolitics Symposium and the Disclosure Project, a U.S.-based organization that has assembled high-level military-intelligence witnesses of a possible ET presence. Earlier this month, the Senate replied to the ICIS that their full agenda precluded any hearings in the near future on ET issues. "That does not deter us," one spokesman for the NGOs said, "We are going ahead with our request to Prime Minister Paul Martin
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 27 Response To Kevin Randle's Exopolitics Critique From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:49:56 -1000 Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 14:11:05 -0500 Subject: Response To Kevin Randle's Exopolitics Critique A Reply to Dr Kevin Randle's Critique of Exopolitics Dr Kevin Randle, has produced a thoughtful critique of my reliance on whistleblower testimonies as a basis for getting to the truth about the UFO cover up and the extraterrestrial hypothesis. See "Exopolitics", 18 November 2006 http://www.kevinrandle.blogspot.com Dr Randle (also a Major in the Iowa National Guard) is on the record that the Roswell crash happened and that a political cover up of UFO and extraterrestrial related evidence exists. However, he believes that other than the Roswell case where whistleblower testimonies have been exhaustively vetted, and supporting evidence analyzed, that there is not sufficient credible evidence to support other whistleblower claims of UFO crashes and cover up of extraterrestrial technologies and entities. So Dr Randle cannot be dismissed as unsympathetic to the claims of a Cosmic Watergate and the veracity of whistleblower testimonies, it's just that in his view these need to be independently verified by hard evidence and documentation as the basis for reliable research. So he has consistently attempted to establish a very high evidentiary benchmark where all claims and background details of a whistleblower need to check out in order for the testimony to be accepted as reliable. If it is found, for example, that a whistleblower has embellished a part of their service record or testimony, then their entire testimony concerning UFO crashes, extraterrestrial entities or technologies, becomes unreliable. In his critique where he specifically focuses on my approach to exopolitics research, Dr Randle identifies four whistleblowers that I use as the principal anchors in my research and analyses: Master Sgt Clifford Stone, Command Sgt Major Robert Dean, Lt Col Philip Corso and Bob Lazar. In picking these whistleblowers, all of whom I believe to be credible, Dr Randle wishes to demonstrate the danger of using testimonies that are in his view unreliable and analyzing the political implications of these testimonies in a new discipline called exopolitics. He believes that using unreliable testimonies in this way leads to a highly distorted conceptual framework for understanding the UFO phenomenon and the extraterrestrial hypothesis. He concludes his critique with the following statement: "In other words, isn't it time for the proponents of exopolitics to properly vet the backgrounds and the tales of the whistleblowers rather than simply defend them? Isn't time for us to stop embracing every tale we are told that appeals to us simply because it appeals to us? Shouldn't we instead search to find the truth in a field with the voices of the charlatans seem to drown out the voices of reason." I think Dr Randle is quite correct in his statement that the backgrounds and stories of whistleblowers have to be vetted rather than simply defended. However, this straight forward request takes us into three very difficult process issues when it comes to vetting whistleblower testimonies. First, what threshold standards need to be established in vetting whistleblower testimonies? Second, what investigatory standards should be expected of those vetting whistleblower testimonies? Finally, what national security processes contextualize the vetting of whistleblower testimonies? As far as the first process question is concerned, Dr Randle advocates as a very detailed and exhaustive study of whistleblower claims, evidence and background to check for consistency and accuracy. If the whistleblower fails to be consistent and accurate, then the testimony is considered unreliable and either dismissed or put into the proverbial gray box. I will describe Dr Randle's method as the "parsimonious vetting approach". On the other hand, there is a more 'nuanced' or 'whistleblower friendly' approach to vetting whistleblower testimonies where as long as certain threshold criteria are met then whistleblower testimony can be accepted as credible even if a few inconsistencies or inaccuracies are found. The second process question is more difficult since Dr Randle assumes that this is simply a matter of independent investigators coming in with a parsimonious vetting approach and imposing this on whistleblower testimonies. In contrast, I argue that investigators need to be sensitive to the national security implications of whistleblowers coming forward to make unauthorized disclosures of classified information. This means asking questions that are sufficiently nuanced and sensitive to the possible penalties faced by whistleblowers in revealing classified information. This means that those taking a parsimonious vetting approach may be asking the wrong questions of whistleblowers, and therefore get unsatisfactory answers or an incomplete picture of what is occurring. I have described in a short paper, ten examples of the wrong questions asked by investigators when interviewing whistleblowers disclosing classified information - see: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-30.htm Of course, researchers are free to agree or disagree with my list of ten questions to ask/not to ask whistleblowers. The important issue is that there is a difficult process issue involved here since there are severe penalties for disclosing unauthorized information that need to be considered when it comes to the vetting of whistleblowers. Finally, this takes me to the third and most controversial process issue: the national security processes that contextualize whistleblower testimonies. There is generally agreement among most UFO investigators including Dr Randle that a Cosmic Watergate exists. There is great disagreement, however, over the extent to which this Cosmic Watergate contextualizes the data collection process and the vetting of whistleblower testimonies. Some such as Dr Randle would argue that Cosmic Watergate involves merely the withholding of classified information; and that claims of evidence tampering, destruction and fabrication, are not supported by the evidence. On the other hand, some researchers (including myself) argue that evidence tampering, etc., is an important part of the national security system associated with Cosmic Watergate. I include this on a list of ten ways in which the national security system is designed to prevent unauthorized disclosure of highly classified information concerning the extraterrestrial hypothesis and UFOs. See: http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-32.htm Each of the three process issues I've identified impact on the vetting standards that should be used for alleged whistleblowers disclosing classified information concerning extraterrestrial technologies or extraterrestrial biological entities. I certainly don't agree with the vetting standard advocated by Dr Randle which in my view is too parsimonious, and fail to adequately take into account the national security implications of whistleblowers disclosing unauthorized information. At the same time, there is a need not to accept whistleblower testimony at face value and so some vetting is required in order to exclude charlatans and frauds as Dr Randle is rightly concerned about. Finding the right vetting standards in my view requires considering all three process questions when it comes to vetting and certainly requires those doing the vetting being sensitized to the national security implications for each whistleblower being investigated. I believe that the vetting standards I have used satisfy the minimum threshold in terms of the whistleblower being extensively interviewed by competent researchers, their military service or corporate service record being corroborated, independent witnesses interviewed, internal consistency of their claims, all circumstantial evidence checked, etc. I will now briefly respond to the inconsistencies or inaccuracies in the testimonies pointed out by Dr Randle in his critique of the four whistleblowers he cites: Stone, Dean, Corso and Lazar. I think that Dr Randle has pointed to several inconsistencies or inaccuracies in the testimonies of these whistleblowers that in his view exclude the reliability of their testimonies. I have had a debate with Dr Randle on these whistleblowers on previous occasions where we have gone into more details in arguments both for and against their credibility. See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exopolitics/message/158 In the case of Clifford Stone for example, he points to Sgt Stone's 22 year military service record as not supporting Stone's claim of having been covertly trained for elite UFO retrieval teams, and that he only was trained as an administrative typist. Stone claims that his service record never included his covert training and even his regular commanding officers were not made aware of his covert service that he was secretly summoned to do. I consider Stone's claims to be very plausible and in fact reflect what I consider a very logical way of setting up a covert UFO retrieval system within the regular military system where operational security is maintained by restricting access to only those doing the covert service. A system where Stone's regular commanding officer is not in the loop is consistent with numerous testimonies where senior military and political officials are not informed. This is certainly a logical corollary of a Cosmic Watergate so I consider Stone's views plausible; and his sincerity, consistency and commitment to detail in interviews with myself and other investigators leads to my conclusion that he is credible. A number of competent researchers have extensively interviewed Stone and find him to be credible. For more on the other points discussed by Dr Randle and myself, please go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exopolitics/message/218 In the case of Robert Dean, Dr Randle points to the cavalier way in which Sgt Dean was given the alleged Assessment detailing UFO/extraterrestrial visitations and the threat they posed to NATO. He argues against the plausibility of a such a top secret document being handled in that way, and the subsequent difficulty in proving the existence of such a document by Timothy Good. Nevertheless, it is a matter of the public record that Dean did serve in the Supreme Headquarter of the Allied Powers in Europe (SHAPE) and served in the Supreme Headquarters Operations Center (SHOC). So Dean served in the apex of the military command system for NATO in Europe and was in a position to view such a document if it existed. Given the extensive data supporting a UFO presence, it is quite logical to assume that NATO did authorize a top secret study of the possible threat posed by UFOs and any visiting extraterrestrials. If such a study was commissioned, then one or more copies would have been in the SHOC as Dean described. Given his distinguished 27 year military service and government employment, there is no reason to believe that Dean would fabricate such a story. He was in the right place and time where such a classified NATO study would have been authorized and analyzed by senior NATO military officers. He would be an example of someone who meets the minimum threshold criteria for whistleblower credibility. This take me to the case of Col Corso who continues to be dismissed by UFO researchers for allegedly embellishing his service record by claiming to work in the National Security Council as opposed to the less prestigious Operations Coordinating Board that reported to the NSC. Further, he has been criticized for claiming to be the head of the Foreign Technology Desk at Army Research and Development for two years, when his service record states he was only in this position for three months. In Dr Randle's views, these embellishments make Corso's testimony unreliable. I have argued elsewhere that an independent FBI report stated that Corso served in the Operations Coordination Board National Security Council thereby answering critics such as Brad Sparks who claim that the OCB was not part of the NSC prior to 1957 and Corso deliberately embellished his background. As for his military record stating he was head of the Foreign Technology Desk for three months rather than the two years he claimed, there are a number of plausible explanations for this discrepancy such as the slow moving nature of the Army bureaucracy, but no reason to deny that Corso was a trusted aide of Lt General Arthur Trudeau who gave Corso the special assignment he claimed and expedited the process whereby Corso could begin the covert duties assigned to him regardless. The recent testimony by Paul Hellyer, former Canadian Defense Minister, where he claims an anonymous retired USAF General confirmed Corso's claims, suggests that these minor inconsistencies do not in any way impact on the veracity of Corso's central claims concerning the dissemination of ET technology into the civilian sector. Again, I would argue he meets the threshold criteria for whistleblower credibility. This takes me finally to Bob Lazar who has been vilified by many UFO researchers for his claims to have worked at S4 on the reverse engineering of extraterrestrial vehicles. There are a number of inconsistencies pointed out by researchers such as Stan Friedman concerning Lazar's testimony, but there continues to be strong support for Lazar from credible investigators such as George Knapp. Knapp and his investigatory team have been able to, for example, confirm that the W2 supplied by Lazar was authentic and that he did indeed work at the Meson facility at Los Alamos, and that other Los Alamos personnel were given threats not to discuss Lazar's employment. Most criticism of Lazar rests on the absence of evidence of him completing two masters degrees, yet it is highly unlikely that someone would work at a prestigious facility at such as Meson Particle Facility without having at least completed a Bachelor's degree. It is very likely that, as I and others have argued, his educational and employment records were removed as part of the security procedures in place for him working at S4 and/or for minimizing the impact of his disclosure once he became a whistleblower. In conclusion, each of the four whistleblowers have been extensively investigated and there continues to be strong support for their credibility by a number of competent researchers. If one attempts a vetting process that is based on the three process issues I have described above, I believe that each of the four whistleblowers would pass a satisfactory threshold of credibility to exclude possible charlatans and ensuring whistleblowers with high credibility emerge. As a result of accepting the testimonies of these whistleblowers, considerable headway can be made in understanding the nature of the national security system that has been created to maintain Cosmic Watergate. That is the basis of the exopolitical model I use in doing my own research on the political implications of the extraterrestrial presence. I consider a parsimonious vetting approach to whistleblower testimonies plays into the hands of those wanting to perpetuate Cosmic Watergate by interfering with the evidence and documentation that is cited by whistleblowers or used to determine their credibility. This often leads to the criticism that whistleblowers who claim that hard evidence and documentation has been removed that would substantiate their claims are making claims that can't be falsified (as in Karl Popper's 'falsifiablitiy thesis) and therefore one moves out of the scientific arena into the arena of faith. In contrast, this criticism can be turned on its head since it is a matter of faith to believe that a purely objective scientific process can be used in a field distorted by national security processes where hard evidence and documentation is removed or altered. This is an important process issue that whistleblower testimonies force researchers to confront, albeit with great reluctance as evidenced by Dr Randle's critique. I nevertheless thank Dr Randle for providing his critique and giving me an opportunity to reply, and explain the appropriateness of my exopolitical approach to whistleblower testimony.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 27 Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Groff From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 14:13:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 14:13:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Groff >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 04:33:34 -0800 >>Subject: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! >>Hello All, >>Something possibly urgent... >>Can somebody mirror and/or archive all the pages on Bob Pratt's >>website? ><snip> >Larry, >Done. >I imported his site to: >http://terrygroff.com/bob_pratt/index.html. >Although there were several pages, there was only one directory >to import from. I even managed to maintain the mouseover effects >on the main page. >It would be helpful if someone would peruse it to see if I missed >anything. >I'm also going to put it all in a ZIP file if any one else wants >to mirror it. I pulled it down as well, but was hesitant in setting up a mirror site without permission of the family. I had exchanged a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 27 Re: Bob Pratt's Last E-Mail To Brazilian UFO From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 15:33:49 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 16:28:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Bob Pratt's Last E-Mail To Brazilian UFO >From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:52:13 -0200 >Subject: Bob Pratt's Last E-Mail To Brazilian UFO Magazine >I'd like to share with you the last e-mail Bob sent me, as >it'll be of interest of many UFO researchers on this List. In >the message, which I hadn't time to answer - unfortunatelly - >Bob was commenting on Operation Saucer, conducted secretly >by the military in the Amazon, from September to December 1977. >A Few weeks ago, the major TV network in Brazil, Globo TV - the >4th largest in the world - aired an astounding 45 minute >documentary about Operation Saucer, recreating facts and >attacks by aliens in the Amazon. I served as consultant to it >and had permission to have the program entirely subtitled in >English. >The program is a Spielberg-like quality show, with great effects >but a few mistakes that can be easily absorbed in the whole >context of the show. It was seen by over 80 million Brazilians >and was debated on every list, in every forum here, as well >as most of the country's population becaming aware of such things. >You can download the English-subtitled documentary for free from >the FTP of the Brazilian UFO Magazine, located at: >http://www.ufo.com.br/publico/ >Once you hit that, click over Linha_Direta_25_Agosto/, and then >click again over Program Linha Direta..>. I am sorry that it is >a 300 Mb file, but it is the shortest version I could manage to >have. <snip> Hello A.J.! Watching this 45 minute Brazilian film documentary about Project Saucer, I could not help but to think of another very important but little known UFO flap that occurred in Carman, Manitoba that newspaper reporter Bob Pratt also investigated personally. Grant Cameron, who has written about this major Canadian UFO flap in the unpublished manuscript 'Tales of Charlie Red Star' (available on CD through his web site), was the person who took Bob Pratt from one witness to another during his investigation. In 2004 Grant Cameron and Bob Diemert (another person that Bob Pratt says he was also much indebted to) were guests on Errol Bruce-Knapp's 'Strange Days... Indeed', a radio show about UFOs, where they spoke about the 18 month long Carman UFO flap that began in 1975. They talked about many fascinating and unique UFO incidents (eg. a very close UFO encounter by air traffic control staff looking out the airport tower windows where they could make out the alien occupants inside the UFO!) and gave additional details of the special interest by the Canadian Government, RCMP and the military in these UFO sightings. The UFOs seemed to be very interested in the nuclear armed Minuteman missiles in their underground silos just across the border to the south which they would fly over before taking refuge in Canada again. Now that past Minister of National Defense Paul Hellyer has spoken publicly about UFOs and there is renewed hope that the Canadian Parliament will soon hold hearings on UFOs and our ET visitors, maybe Brazil and Canada will be the countries that bring an end to the many years of UFO secrecy and begin the disclosure process where the public is finally told the truth. Although I never met Bob Pratt personally, after checking out his excellent UFO web site, I am sure he would be very pleased that
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 27 Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:18:33 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 16:37:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Groff List It seems nearly everyone is willing to help archive Bob Pratt's website and being one of them I did just that. However, instead of making it publicly available I have password protected his folder and will leave it that way until I know it's okay to open it up. It's located at http://terrygroff.com/bob_pratt. I have also taken the 44MB website and placed it in a 10MB ZIP file available to anyone who can show they are entitled to receive it. Other than Mr. Pratt's wife or perhaps his webmaster I'm not aware of anyone. I did notice that his domain registration expires in February
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 27 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:44:51 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 16:55:29 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:52:33 -0800 >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>Accounts of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens >>have one eerie similarity. >>When serious researchers like psychologist Frederick Malmstrom >>have asked self-proclaimed abductees what their out-of-this- >>world kidnappers looked like, they inevitably describe beings >>with large heads, big eyes, gray skin, smooth features, a >>barely visible or absent mouth and smallish bodies. >>Malmstrom, a visiting scholar at the U.S. Air Force Academy, >>now thinks he recognizes that face. It's Mommy -- or at least >>the image of a "prototypical female face" that's hard-wired >>into a baby's brain and helps newborns instantly respond to >>their mothers. >The original article is featured in the Skeptic magazine Vol. >11, No 4 >http://tinyurl.com/excpm >Frederick V. Malmstrom: >Currently Visiting Scholar for Honor, USAF Academy, CO (1999- >present). >Psychology supervisor (Ohio, retired): Orient Correctional >Institution, London Correctional Institution, Chillicothe >Correctional Institution 1990-1999. Ohio psychology license >#4360. Lt Colonel (retired), USAFR (1957-1996). >Two combat tours Vietnam. Former assistant professor of >psychology, USAF Academy (1971-74), University of Southern >California (1978-84), University of Dayton (1988-89). Author >of 75 professional articles on topics ranging from >physiological optics to UFOs to mental health reform. Frequent >contributor to Flying Safety Magazine. (Monument, Colorado >United States) Despite the learned professor's degrees and many papers, this particular paper is full of BS (Bunk Science). The more I read it, the more I realized Malmstrom has a poor grasp of basic visual science. The problem is he's read enough to make an averag ereader think he knows what he's talking about, but he doesn't know enough to realize he's in way over his head. Hence garbage masquerading as "science." His superficial knowledge combined with the blur function on a paint program makes him a public menace. People should go look at the article to see exactly what he did. Basically what Malmstrom assumed and said was this: 1. Only newborn infant vision counts. The quality of their vision months, weeks, or even days later isn't relevant. Why this should be so is never explained. 2. Newborns pay attention to things only a few inches from their face and ignore everything beyond this, even though this is clearly untrue (even he admits as much). 3. Putting Mommy's face only a few inches few inches away is used to justify blurring and distorting the face so badly that Malmstrom claims it looks like a prototypical "gray" alien face. Along the way, Malmstrom demonstrates he doesn't have a clue about infant focusing ability, measures of infant acuity, or what is meant by such basic concepts as depth of focus and astigmatism. 4. Somehow (never explained), this hugely distorted and blurred Mommy face becomes so deeply burned into a newborn's brain that it somehow triggers hallucinations of gray aliens decades later when a person is asleep or in a hypnotic state. The weird hidden assumption here is that the newborn infant eye and brain is too immature to see clearly, but has remarkable maturity in its ability to remember the badly degraded Mommy face. Malmstrom is apparently preparing a more detailed version of this article to appear soon in the Skeptical Inquirer. Why are we not surprised? Even though most of his "science" is totally bogus, we all know that the S.I. will probably hype the paper into being the definitive scientific explanation of alien gray imagery. Unfortunately, to understand the multitude of ways that Malmstrom screws up, it is nececessary to get a little geeky about basic visual science. Therefore, what follows is quite lengthy and detailed. I apologize in advance. If you do slog through the following, you will be rewarded with an another sensational example of debunker pseudoscience. First of all, how the heck does anybody know what preverbal children might see or not see? There are various ways researchers try to deduce this: 1. Comparison to electrophysiological studies of visual development in baby monkeys, and trying to extrapolate to humans. 2. Neuroanatomy of the human baby eye and brain. E.g., the photoreceptors for color vision, the cones, are poorly developed in newborns, hence one might guess their color vision is also poor when born. This seems to be born out by the next two means of testing infant vision. 3. Behavioral tests in human children. These are usually known as preferential looking experiments. E.g., if you try to deduce a baby's visual acuity, you could have two screens, one blank and the other with black and white stripes or gratings of differing sizes. The assumption is that babies will spend more time looking at the screen with the stripes if they can perceive them than the blank screen. If the stripes are too small (below their acuity), that screen will also seem blank, and the baby will spend equal time looking at both. The smallest size grating that the baby preferentially looks at is considered the limit of their behaviorial visual acuity. 4. Objective neurophysiological measures using the visual evoked potential (VEP), a brain wave recorded off the visual brain to visual stimuli. E.g., a baby might be briefly shown black and white gratings of various sizes and then replace it with a blank screen of the same luminance. The smallest grating which produces a clear evoked potential represents the the limit of the electrophysiological or sensory visual acuity. I did a lot of this work in graduate school on this and even ran the evoked potential clinic at the UC Berkeley School of Optometry for a few years, so I know a lot about this one. 5. Direct measurement of infant focusing ability (accommodation), which is directly tied to their visual acuity. Most "prevailing wisdom" about infant vision comes from techniques 3 & 4. The problem is there can be wide disagreements in the behavioral measures and the electrophysiological ones. Usually the various VEP measures show infant vision being much better than the behavioral measures. E.g., the behavioral studies indicate visual acuity becoming adultlike between about ages 3 and 6, whereas the VEP says it becomes adultlike between 6 months and 12 months. The VEP results also tend to agree with the results of poking electrodes into baby monkey brains and seeing how the population of cells respond. It further seems to track with method 5. A baby's focusing ability develops very rapidly. It is already becoming adult-like by 1 month of age and is very adultlike by only 3 months. There are raging debates as to why the behavioral measures lag so significantly behind the neurophysiological ones, and usually all people can guess is that maybe the sensory side matures before the perceptual/behavioral side, or maybe babies just choose to ignore the less vivid stimuli (like small gratings) because they are "harder" to see, not because they can't perceive them. The point I'm trying to make here is that when Malmstrom says a baby's vision is this or that, you have to be real cautious about it. Actually, very little is known about a newborn's vision, since most infant laboratory testing doesn't begin until they're at least a few weeks old. Why ignore what infants see during the next few months of their life? Again, Malmstrom never explains, though reading between the lines, it is obvious he is trying to use an absolute worst case situation of immature newborn vision also recovering from birth trauma. Frankly, I consider this pseudoscience at its worst. Now let's look at the specifics of Malmstrom's article. 1. Where are the babies looking? Malmstrom writes: "... it is generally reported that a neonate will pay attention to objects only 7-25 cm (3-10 in) in front of their eyes, and they will generally ignore any activity outside this range. However, the infant's range of attention increases rapidly and will expand to perhaps a range of 1 meter or greater in as little as 1-2 days after birth." This again raises the question, why isn't Malmstrom concerned with infant vision beyond 1 or 2 days of birth? The reason is because he wants to blur and distort Mommy's face beyond all recognition until it fancifully looks like an alien gray. If the face is only a few inches from the baby, then the blur could conceivably be very high. But the reality is Mommy's face is rarely only a few inches away. Do Mommies (and Daddies and Grannies, etc.) all get up right in Baby's face only inches away and just sit there for hours on end? Really, what universe does Malmstrom live in? Further, even Malmstrom notes babies are paying attention to objects well beyond this after only 1 or 2 days. Baby is going to be seeing faces beyond 3-10 inches probably 99% of the time. Further, studies show that even very young babies are fairly decent at focusing on such images. Thus, these faces will not be signficantly blurred to the point of reducing the infant's visual acuity. This is why Malmstrom tries to eliminate this, even though it is an obvious cheat. 2. Where does Malmstrom place his test Mommy face? Malmstorm writes about his test Mommy face, "her digital photo was then transformed in gray scales to a coarseness of about 150 pixels across a field of 50=B0 of visual angle. [his Fig. 5] This operation simulated a 2-dimensional Fourier transform of about 3 cycles/degrees of visual angle, the same region where the human visual system has its highest contrast sensitivity." Allow me to first translate into semi-English before explaining how Malmstrom screwed up here in various ways. One way to express visual acuity is in grating cycles per degree. E.g., if you have a black and white grating where there are 30 pairs or cycles of black and white stripes in 1 degree of visual arc, then this is a 30 cycle/deg grating. Distance between pairs of black/black or white/white stripes is only 1 minute of arc (since there are 60 minutes of arc per degree). On a letter test chart, letters constructed with similar gaps of 1 minute of arc represent 20/20 letters, i.e., if you can just resolve the gaps and read the letters, then your visual acuity is 20/20. Thus a 30 cycle/degree grating corresponds in acuity to a 20/20 test letter. Similarly, Malmstrom's 3 cyles/degree is a grating with stripes and gaps 10 times wider and corresponds to 20/200 acuity. This acuity corresponds typically to what would be obtained with VEP tests for babies a month or younger in age. One problem here is that Malmstrom is off by a factor of 2 when he says 150 pixels corresponds to 3 cycles/deg resolution over 50 degrees. This is total bunk! 150 pixels divided by 50 degrees is 3 pixels/degree, and you can only squeeze 1-1/2 black/white cycles into 3 pixels, not 3 cycles. Sheesh! In order for his 150 pixel Mommy face to have a resolution of 3 cycles/deg, he would have to move it twice as far away until it was only 25 degrees wide. Then 150 pixels/25 degrees =3D 6 pixels/deg, just enough to squeeze in 3 pairs of black/white pixel pairs. So this is one big screw-up on Malmstrom's part. His bio says he has authored papers in physiological optics (basically visual perception), but he doesn't seem to know much about the "optics" part. This is also very evident in some of his other bogus optical arguments. What this means in practice is that Malmstrom is starting with a face that has only half the resolution that he claims it has. If he wants details of 3 cycles/deg in a 50 degree wide face, then he needs to double the size of the face, or keep the same size face (in pixels), but move it twice as far away and make it 25 degrees wide. With his 50 degree face, Malmstrom was trying to place "Mommy" only about 15 cm or 6 inches from Baby's eyeballs. But to have the claimed resolution, his actual face needs to be about 30 cm or about 1 foot away. This also cuts the amount of potential blur to half of what he had it before. Rats! Making Mommy into an alien gray is going to be a bit harder than Malmstrom would like it. 3. Just how blurred would the Mommy face be and how well is the baby focusing? This is a complicated question, but it seems that judging by the huge amounts of blur Malmstrom is applying to his image, he is assuming the baby isn't focusing at all, which is experimental bunk. He is also assuming that depth of focus (i.e., the range of depths over which no difference in image quality is detectible) is virtually nonexistent--more experimental and optical bunk. Adding to Malmstrom's bunk are his obvious misunderstanding of what is meant by astigmatism and how it affects blur and perception. First the question of infant astigmatism. Malmstrom writes, "Atkinson reports that newborn astigmatism is 'very common.' Adults are quite aware that astigmatism is most annoying and gives the impression of visual "smearing" of an image. However, newborn astigmatism seems to be a perceived smearing only in the periphery of all images outside the central cylinder of focus." Malmstrom in his caption to Figure 6 further refers to this as "radial astigmatism." Where did Malmstrom dream this up, because it is unadulterated bilge? For a guy with "professional articles" in physiological optics, he apparently doesn't have a clue as to what is meant by astigmatism as commonly used in vision science. Opthalmic astigmatism simply means that the focusing parts of our eyeballs (the cornea and lens) often do not make a perfectly spherical system. E.g., our corneas may be more football-shaped than basketball-shaped. There is a little more curvature in one direction than in an axis at right angles to it. As a result, rays of light coming along one axis will focus at a differently point than rays coming in at an axis at right angles. A common test object in an office is a bunch of radial black lines arranged like a clock dial. Astigmatism will cause the more-in- focus lines to be darker. If the astigmatism is successfully neutralized with corrective lenses, all lines will appear equally dark. This could be called "axial astigmatism" because the astigmatism has well-defined axes of differing curvature. Malmstrom's "radial astigmatism" is not a concern in opthalmic optics but is a concern in such things as camera lenses and refers to _symmetrical_ blur of images _off the central axis of the lens_ (hence sometimes called oblique astigmatism). It does not affect _central_ focus and central, high-acuity vision, and hence is not a concern in vision science. However, it is a concern in such fields as photography. If it is not corrected, it is not possible to perfectly focus the image in the periphery. Imagine a wagon wheel test image. If one focuses the lens to clear up the wagon spokes (called a sagittal focus), then the circular parts of the wheel (like the rim and hub) will be out of focus. Conversely, focusing the circular parts (tangential focus) leaves the radial spokes out of focus. However, this isn't an issue in visual science, because visual acuity is only high in the center of vision and degrades rapidly in the periphery. Whatever optical aberrations there are, including radial astigmatism, has no effect on our ability to see in the periphery because the acuity is already so bad. In contrast, axial astigmatism affects the central part of vision where the acuity is high. That is why it is of concern in vision science. Malmstrom obviously doesn't understand this. Saying that "newborn astigmatism is 'very common'" does not mean it is a completely different form of astigmatism from adults and somehow blurs only the periphery. Newborns just tend to have more axial astigmatism than an older population. The difference is essentially gone by age 3. It has nothing to do with Malmstrom's "radial astigmatism." But Malmstrom wants a "scientific" justification to badly smear and distort the periphery of the face to make the face more "alien-like," even it is total bunk! More image smearing bunk comes in the form of Malmstrom's statements about depth of focus, which he refers to as "extremely shallow" in infants and in his picture caption as being only "1 cm." Now where did he get this? Apparently by considering depth of focus in _adults_ and assuming the face is only about 15 cm away. Depth of focus means that if you are focused on a point, you can't discern any difference in image quality for a certain distance in front of or behind the focal plane. Another way to describe it clinically is the change in lens power that needs to be added in front of an eye before the person notices a difference. Lens power is expressed in Diopters (D), and is the inverse of the focal distance in meters. Thus if you are trying to focus something 50 cm or 0.5 meters away, it requires 1/.5 =3D 2D of lens power. People with normal vision (not babies) will typically notice a change of 0.25 D in lens power. (Hence the annoying eye doctor test of "which looks better, lens 1 or lens 2?" --usually a difference of 0.25 D to see if the patient notices a difference.) Differences of +/- 0.125 D are typically not noticed. Hence the usual depth of focus in normal adults is about +/- 0.25D. What determines absolute depth of focus is complicated, and depends on such things as distance from the eye, pupil size, visual acuity, and sensitivity to contrast. E.g., in adults with good visual acuity and focused on an object 1 meter away, a decrease in focus and a _slight drop in image quality_ would only be noticed for distances about ~20 cm (8 inches) in front of or ~30 cm behind the focal plane (corresponding to a change of about +0.25D and -0.25D respectively). If you move the distance up to Malmstrom's bogus 15 cm, this range decreases to about +/- .5 cm (corresponding to +/- 0.25D). This is probably is what Malmstrom is calling an infant's "extremely shallow" "1 cm" depth of focus. The problem is, he is actually talking about adult vision, not infant vision. Another important point here is that these various distances in front of or behind the focal plane represents the range over which no noticeable change in image quality exists. It _doesn't_ mean that if you move beyond this, the person suddenly perceives very severe blur. Yet that is exactly what Malmstrom and his little blur machine do to the image--just more bunk. In contrast to adults, if one considers Malmstrom's very young infants, experiments show that their depth of focus is much greater. The primary reason is that their acuity starts out about 10 times worse than an adults as does their sensitivity to contrast. Thus the image can be degraded much more (from 1 to 2 Diopters instead of an adult 0.25 D) before it becomes noticeable to them. E.g., at 15 cm, the depth of focus would not be 1 cm, but would extend from roughly 12 cm clear out to 25 cm before the image would be degraded by defocus beyond the infants acuity level. Thus if baby is focused on Mommy's nose, Mommy's eyes will seem equally "sharp" as the tip of Mommy's ears. The baby's acuity is too low to distinguish the difference. If instead you move Mommy's face out to 30 cm, or a still very close 1 foot away, the depth of focus stretches from about 20 cm to nearly a meter, more than enough to accommodate all of Mommy's head. As the infant acuity rapidly improves in the succeeding months, this range correspondingly shrinks. But the big point is Malmstrom has no scientific justification for severely blurring and distorting the periphery of the face because of either "extremely shallow" infant depth of focus or infant "radial astigmatism" It's all based on his bogus understanding of vision science and perhaps a pseudoskeptic desire to debunk. 4. Malmstrom further doesn't understand the difference between visual acuity and sensitivity to contrast or gray scale. Why did Malmstrom choose a 3 cycle/deg detail Mommy face? He explains that, "3 cycles/degrees of visual angle [is] the same region where the human visual system has its highest contrast sensitivity." First, what is "contrast sensitivity?" It is the ability to distinguish small differences in gray scale. It is indeed most sensitive for detail around 3 cycles/deg, but this is for normal _adult_ vision, not newborn babies! So this is yet another huge screw-up of basic vision science by Malmstrom. Adults can typically distinguish changes of gray of only .3 or .4% in a 3 cycle/deg grating. In other words, if you have a striped grating made up of gray stripes where the stripes differ in luminance by only .3 or .4% from one another, you can still see that there is a grating there, but if the difference is less than this, then it looks like a uniform gray. This means that a typical adult can usually distinguish about 300 different levels of gray (which corresponds well with the usual 8 bit, 256 levels of gray generated by computer screens). However, this isn't true as the spatial frequency of the stripes increases, i.e., the stripes get smaller and smaller. At the limits of one's acuity, it requires a very high-contrast black and white grating to just barely make it out. Instead of 300 levels of gray, at the limits of acuity we can distinguish only 2 levels, black and white. The point is, an infant less than 1 month old has an acuity on the order of 20/200 or 3 cycles/deg, meaning it can only distinguish black and white at this spatial frequency. An infant's maximum contrast sensitivity is going to be for much grosser gratings, probably about 10 times larger or 0.3 cycles/deg. In contrast to adults, young infants are found to be able contrast levels of only about 5%, though this rapidly improves. This corresponds to about a 4 bit or 16 gray level scale in a computer, a little coarse on the shading but still quite adequate for decent imagery. Thus Malmstrom is confusing a newborn baby's visual acuity with the maximum contrast sensitivity of an adult. They are completely different things. Unfortunately Malmstrom's bungling doesn't end here. Concerning his severe blurring of the Mommy face, he also writes, "The final process (Figure 7) was accomplished by inserting a smoothing function that serves as an additional second low-pass spatial frequency filter, passing only the 3 cycles/degrees visual information." Incredible BUNK! Blurring is indeed a low-pass spatial frequency filter, meaning the low frequency (gross detail) stuff survives the blurring, whereas the fine detail, sharp edges, higher spatial frequency stuff gets wiped out. Malmstrom designed his face so that the finest detail didn't exceed 3 cycles/degree, but this all got destroyed the first time he hit the blur function on his paint program. And each succeeding time he blurred the image, more and more of the higher spatial frequencies got destroyed. That is why at the end of his blurring spree, all that's left are indistinct large blobs where the eyes, nose, and mouth once were. Thus Malmstrom has totally destroyed "the 3 cycle/degree visual information", but remarkably he thinks this is the only thing that's left. This guy is completely clueless about what he has actually done! In fact, one can estimate just how much he has degraded the image by measuring the smallest spacing between what features have survived the blurring. This appears to be the two shaded sides of the nose and the distance between the nostrils, which is about 1/5th the width of the face, cheek to cheek. If the face width is about 20 degrees, then the distance between nostrils is about 4 degees, and the finest surving detail is about 1 cycle per 4 degrees, or 0.25 cycles/degree, about 10 times larger than what Malmstrom claims he is actually preserving. On an eye chart, this is 120 times worse acuity than 20/20, i.e., Malmstrom has blurred the image to about 20/2400 acuity! A 20/20 letter on an eye chart at 20 feet is about 9 mm high. A 20/2400 letter would be about 1 meter high! It takes one very powerful lens to blur a meter high letter to the point where you can barely read it. I find it takes about 25 Diopters of blur to do this, which corresponds to the blur created by placing a Mommy face only about 4 cm in front of the baby's eye. In other words, the amount of blur Malmstrom is actually applying to the face is absurdly high, about 8 times as great as the blur you should get if you pushed the Mommy face out to the proper 30 cm (and further assume the baby is incapable of focusing up close at that distance, which is also bogus). I suspect what's happened here is that Malmstrom is totally confused about what spatial frequency region he should be dealing with. He manufactured a face with the best details in the spatial frequency region where adults have the best contrast sensitivity. But gross facial recognition, i.e., seeing that a face is there vs. not there, requires only very low spatial frequencies, in this case an order of magnitude lower than his best details. This is what he is trying to simulate with his blur abuse. This is all mixed up in his head, but he doesn't know enough about the science to even realize he doesn't know enough about the science. 5. More and more bunk Is this the end of Malmstrom's vision science screw-ups? Alas no. Malmstrom has a remarkable density of bunk packed into his short "science" article. Another bogus manipulation of his was to reduce the contrast of his Mommy face before he even blurred it. He doesn't say he is doing this, but it is obvious by comparing his Figure 6 face to his unblurred Figure 5 face. Malmstrom probably justifies this in his mind by an earlier statement of his, "The newborn infant's vision is also reported as being substantially clouded, as if he or she is peering through fog." This statement is in itself debatable, and even if true, again we must ask ourselves why Malmstrom is limiting infant experience to just newborns. If people were somehow confusing gray aliens with early experience of Mommy, why limit the exposure to immediately after birth? Here's another highly questionable thing Malmstrom did. Compare his degraded and blurred Figures 6 and Figures 7 with the unblurred Figure 5. You'll notice that he has deliberately cropped the face from Fig. 5 to eliminate the hairline. Again, he doesn't explicitly tell you he is doing this, but his probable rationalization appears earlier in the article: "...the human newborn ability to distinguish between familiar and unfamiliar faces does not develop in infants until about two months of age. Up to that time, an infant will respond favorably to nearly any face, familiar or unfamiliar, normal or bizarre, mother or Halloween mask. Of course, all these human-type faces seem to share two quite generalized and nonspecific features, namely a pair of eyes and a nose." "...The Prototype Female Face: Rather than using spots or schematic pupils, I.W.R. Bushnell utilized a 'prototype' young female face, one for which the hair and ear outline of the face was covered with white cloth, such as that shown in Figure 4. Newborn infants seemed not to discriminate between these prototype faces, although they afterwards quickly learned to discriminate between faces with the added cue of a hair outline. However, the ability to recognize this prototype hairless and earless face is reportedly located in the hippocampus, a noncortical area of the brain." However, some of the older studies on baby face gazing show that they DO pay a lot of attention to the hairline, along with other high contrast, large features like the eyes, nose, and mouth. I see no reason to deliberately crop out the hairline other than Malmstrom's obvious desire to try to make his degraded Mommy face resemble a prototypical bald gray alien. I consider it nothing more than another cheat on his part. Here's another way in which he does the same sort of thing. Why does he use a black and white face rather than a colored one? Again, it's because he is literally trying to make the face into a "gray." He's reasoning may be on slightly firmer ground here, because newborn color vision may be extremely poor, though it is doubtful that it is completely nonexistent, as he is assuming: "Regarding infant color perception, neonates (as measured by the time they focus attention) are also unable to discriminate between colors within the same display. Their vision seems to tend toward discrimination between shades of gray. To the newborn, says Atkinson, 'color discriminations are either weak or absent.'" However, more recent behavioral experiments indicate that babies only a few weeks can clearly distinguish between saturated reds and greens. Their ability to distinguish colors seems to be far more limited than an adults, as is their ability to distinguish a wide range of grays. But this doesn't mean it is nonexistent. I seriously doubt infants literally see Mommy as gray with zero color saturation. As the history of infant vision has shown, the visual abilities of infants has generally been underestimated. Even if it turns out that babies have zero color vision at birth, has Malmstrom forgotten that a prototypical alien Gray is light-skinned, whereas a prototypical human Mommy is dark-skinned? Even with no color vision, a baby would still see such a Mommy as dark gray. Where are all those reports of dark-skinned alien Grays? Perhaps this is why Malmstrom conveniently utilizes only light-skinned Mommies in his demonstration. 6. How does a baby really see a face? I'm only going to talk about the optical/visual acuity part of this question, not the perceptual/behavioral part. The answer is if Malmstrom had used his low-resolution sample Mommy face _as is_ without any further image manipulation, that is pretty close to the image projected onto the retina and within the experimental visual acuity of a typical young infant. Thus, all the severe blurring and distortion he does his completely bogus. There is no "extremely shallow" depth of focus or infant "radial astigmatism" to blur the edges below the baby's visualacuity level. That's all bunk. It's also bogus for him to artificially decrease the contrast of the image. That's also not based on any real science. It is just more bunk for him to claim that additional blurring is needed to isolate the best contrast sensitivity region. Just about every bit that he writes and does is utter nonsense. Not only is this all bunk, but so is his underlying assumption of limiting the baby's total visual experience to just the first few days of life. I can't think of a single justification for that. If anything, if one was trying to correlate early childhood experience with faces to letter events in life, I think common sense tells us that extended visual experience with faces is what is going to be remembered, not a day or two when the brain is still very immature. Malmstrom may be a good pychologist in some aspects of the field (like dealing with the moral turpitude of Air Force cadets, apparently one of his specialties), but he is obviously not a trained vision scientist. If he tried to present these arguments before a group of real vision experts, he would be hooted off the stage as a charlatan. His paper is a very good example of what can happen when people, even those with PhD's, argue outside of their field of expertise. Having a debunker mentality also doesn't help. Frankly his paper is a scientfic embarrassment. This is why the Skeptical Inquirer will no doubt love it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 28 Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Fischer From: Robert Fischer <robert.fischer.nul> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 09:31:02 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 06:18:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Fischer Hello I've just made a full copy of the the Bob Pratt Website. The total size of the copy is 13 Mb but only 9.34Mb when compressed in a zip file.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 28 Daily Express Rendlesham Article From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 21:37:24 -0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 06:18:59 -0500 Subject: Daily Express Rendlesham Article On November 19 the Daily Express ran a double page article on the Rendlesham Forest UFO incident. They commissioned the article from me in the run-up to the 25th anniversary of the UFO sightings. It's not available online, but the newspaper only made very minor editorial amendments, such as changing "light- alls" into "lamps", so what follows under the headline below is my original submission. Daily Express, Saturday November 19, 2005 What is the truth about Britain's greatest UFO mystery? It is nearly 25 years since a strange craft landed in a Suffolk forest. When asked about the incident, Margaret Thatcher replied "You can't tell the people." Here, the Government's former UFO expert reveals the amazing story. On 21 May 1997 a former Prime Minister made an enigmatic comment that appeared to confirm the reality of Britain's most famous UFO incident. The casual remark hinted at darker secrets and led to much debate among conspiracy theorists. The politician concerned was Baroness Thatcher and the implications of what she said are extraordinary. The remark was made at a charity function. London-based socialite and author Georgina Bruni had for some time been researching the Rendlesham Forest UFO incident, intrigued by hints dropped by various diplomatic, military and political friends. She had been sceptical about the whole UFO mystery and had initially thought that the subject was awash with cultists and crackpots. But Rendlesham was different and so, when she met Baroness Thatcher at the dinner, Bruni took the opportunity to put the former PM on the spot. Was there any truth to the extraordinary rumours concerning what happened in Rendlesham Forest? What did the government really know about UFOs? Was it a serious issue or just pie in the sky? Bruni was expecting a bland dismissal of the story. The official position of the Ministry of Defence, after all, was that no evidence existed to suggest that UFOs were extraterrestrial in origin. Then the former PM dropped her bombshell. "UFOs?" she said. "You can't tell the people." Bruni was astounded and pressed her point. What did she mean? Baroness Thatcher calmly repeated her remark, before departing. I wasn't at the dinner, but heard about the conversation very shortly afterwards. The reason I heard about it so quickly was that Georgina Bruni decided to call me at 2am to tell me what had happened. She called me because I used to run the British Government's UFO Project, based at the Ministry of Defence, a position I'd held from 1991 to 1994. Georgina Bruni had interviewed me in the course of her research into UFOs and we bumped into each other from time to time at various social functions. Once I got over my sense of humour failure at having been called at 2am, I quickly grasped the significance of what I was told. I got up, went to my study and began to make some notes, all the time quizzing Georgina about every nuance of her brief encounter with the former PM. For me, this was a revelation, because out of all the thousands of UFO sightings investigated by the Ministry of Defence over the years, the Rendlesham Forest incident was the one that stood out. It was the case that we couldn't ignore, despite best efforts to find some conventional explanation for what happened. This case was the Holy Grail and Baroness Thatcher's remark put the events into a new light. So what actually happened at Rendlesham Forest and what is it that makes this event the most extraordinary UFO encounter ever to have taken place in the UK? As we approach the 25th anniversary of Britain's closest encounter, it's time to re-open the MOD's spookiest X-File. Late on Christmas night 1980 and in the early hours of Boxing Day, strange lights were seen in Rendlesham Forest. This might not sound particularly significant. People see UFOs all the time and when I was running the UFO Project I used to receive between two and three hundred reports each year, most of which could be explained as misidentifications of aircraft lights, meteors, weather balloons and suchlike. What made this sighting interesting was the fact that the witnesses were United States Air Force personnel based at RAF Bentwaters and RAF Woodbridge in Suffolk. Rendlesham Forest lies between the twin bases and as the Cold War was still decidedly frosty, a UFO sighting at two of the nation's most sensitive military sites was most decidedly of interest. In the early hours of 26 December, duty personnel reported lights so bright, they feared an aircraft had crashed. They sought and obtained permission to go off-base and investigate. They didn't find a crashed aircraft - they found a UFO. The three-man patrol from the 81st Security Police Squadron - Jim Penniston, John Burroughs and Ed Cabansag - saw a small metallic craft, moving through the trees. At one point it appeared to land in a small clearing. They approached cautiously and Penniston got close enough to see strange markings on the side of the craft, which he likened to Egyptian hieroglyphs. He made some rapid sketches in his police notebook. Later on, because of the complicated legal and jurisdictional position of United States Air Force bases in the UK, police from Suffolk Constabulary were called out to the site where the object had apparently landed. They conducted a brief but inconclusive examination and then left. But three indentations were visible in the clearing and when mapped, they formed the shape of an equilateral triangle. A Geiger counter was used to check the site and the readings peaked markedly in the depressions where the object - possibly on legs of some sort - had briefly come to Earth. News of the UFO encounter spread quickly around the bases and came to the attention of the Deputy Base Commander, Lieutenant Colonel Charles Halt. He was sceptical, but had the witnesses write up official reports, including sketches of what they had seen. The following evening Halt was at a social function when a young airman burst in and ran up to the colonel. "Sir," he stammered, "It's back." Halt looked confused. "What?" he retorted, "What's back?" "The UFO, Sir - the UFO's back." Halt remained sceptical but gathered together a small team and went out into the forest to investigate. He subsequently stated that he went out with no expectation of seeing anything. In his own words, he said that his intention was to "debunk" the whole affair. But he didn't debunk it because he too encountered the UFO, becoming one of the highest ranking military officers ever to go on the record about a UFO sighting. As he and his men tracked the UFO, their radios began to malfunction and powerful mobile 'light-alls', taken to illuminate the forest, mysteriously began to cut out. One piece of equipment that didn't malfunction was the hand-held tape recorder that the colonel took with him to document his investigation. The tape recording still survives and one can hear the rising tension in Halt's voice and the voices of his men, as the UFO approaches: "I see it too ... it's back again ... it's coming this way ... there's no doubt about it ... this is weird ... it looks like an eye winking at you ... it almost burns your eyes ... he's coming toward us now ... now we're observing what appears to be a beam coming down to the ground ... one object still hovering over Woodbridge base ... beaming down". At one point the tension in their voices almost seems to become panic as the UFO makes a close approach and fires light beams down on Halt and his men. Following these events, Charles Halt wrote an official report of the incident and sent it to the Ministry of Defence. Although somewhat innocuously entitled "Unexplained Lights", his report described the first night's UFO as being "metallic in appearance and triangular in shape ... a pulsing red light on top and a bank of blue lights underneath ... the animals on a nearby farm went into a frenzy." He went on to detail the radiation readings taken from the landing site and set out the details of his own sighting. Halt sent his report to the Ministry of Defence, to the section where, a little over ten years later, I would spend three years researching and investigating UFO sightings. The report went to my predecessors, who begun an investigation. But they were hampered by a critical mistake that was to have dire consequences. For whatever reason - and it may have been nothing more than a simple typographical error - Charles Halt's report gave incorrect dates for the incident. So when the MOD checked the radar tapes, they were looking at the wrong days. Looking at radar evidence is a critical part of any UFO investigation. There have been plenty of spectacular UFO sightings over the years, many correlated by radar. The MOD's comprehensive UFO files detail several such cases, including ones where RAF pilots encountered UFOs and gave chase. Unsuccessfully, I might add. In the absence of any radar data that might confirm the presence of the Rendlesham Forest UFOs, the investigation petered out. Yet, as I was to discover years later, the UFO had been tracked, after all. I spoke to a former RAF radar operator called Nigel Kerr. He had been stationed at RAF Watton at Christmas 1980 and had received a call from somebody at RAF Bentwaters. They wanted to know if there was anything unusual on his radar screen. He looked and for three or four sweeps, something did show up, directly over the base. But it faded away and no official report was ever made. It was only years later that Kerr even heard of the Rendlesham Forest incident and realised he might have a missing piece of the puzzle. In the apparent absence of radar data to verify the presence of the UFO, arguably the most critical piece of evidence was never followed up. The Defence Intelligence Staff had assessed the radiation readings taken at the landing site and judged them to be "significantly higher than the average background". In fact, they were about seven times what would have been expected for the area concerned. So what are we to make of all this? UFO believers are convinced that the sightings involved an extraterrestrial spacecraft. They still hold skywatches in the forest and claim to see UFOs on a regular basis. The sceptical theories are almost as bizarre, with people variously suggesting that the highly trained military witnesses actually saw the lights of a police car, or the beam from the local lighthouse. "Lighthouses don't fly", Charles Halt observed, incredulously. More rational sceptical theories include the testing of some sort of prototype aircraft, but the bottom line is that while at any given time there are things being developed that you won't see at the Farnborough airshow for 10 or 15 years, we know where we fly our own hardware. The 'black projects' theory doesn't fly. The initial United States Air Force report to the MOD was obtained by American UFO researchers in 1983, under the Freedom of Information Act. But it was not until 2001 that the rest of the file came to light. Georgina Bruni had requested a number of documents on the incident under the Code of Practice on Access to Government Information - the forerunner to Britain's Freedom of Information Act. She had also enlisted the help of former Chief of the Defence Staff Lord Hill-Norton - himself a firm believer in UFOs. The MOD, despite what conspiracy theorists allege, is committed to open government and was happy to release the file. It can now be viewed in entirety on the MOD website. In the league tables of FOI requests, questions about UFOs are near the top. The MOD and the National Archives are bombarded with requests about UFOs but have a rolling programme of disclosure. These are the real X-Files and they are being released. As the 25th anniversary of this UFO encounter approaches, there is tremendous interest in the incident. UFO enthusiasts are planning an anniversary vigil. The Forestry Commission - which recently created a 'UFO Trail' in the forest - is planning a commemorative event. Several television documentaries are being made and there's even talk of a Hollywood movie. But 25 years on, despite the wealth of documentation to have emerged and
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 28 Re: Something For Repeat Abductees To Try? - White From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:35:41 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 06:31:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Something For Repeat Abductees To Try? - White This post is _not_ to suggest that abductions are "mental only". I'm confident, given all the evidence I've heard about that they are real, physical abductions. However, it does appear that the abductors use advanced technology to paralyze or block the will to resist. One of our members in the advanced electronic harassment camp, where we are hit with "UFO-class" technology which can remotely manipulate and levitate us and our possessions, has reported complete cessation of the mind/body effects which in his case include voice to skull transmissions, sleep disruption, unpleasant dream inducement, and pain. He simply tried a small fairly powerful rare earth bar magnet turning at 7.5 rpm within 5 feet of where he tries to sleep. One wonders if this simple setup might disrupt abductors' technology to some extent, making it at least more difficult to prevent an abduction from taking place. Anne Druffel's book seemed to suggest that in some cases disruption is sufficient to stop the abduction, if I read it correctly. Here are the specifics he has provided us: >It has been day two now with no voice to skull or mind manipulation. >I'll attach a photo of the device to show you how simple it is to >build. I had the second good night's sleep with no dream manipulation >or REM interrogations. The bar magnet is made of Neodymium, a rare >earth magnet. It is only 1.5 inches long. The device seems to have a >range of about 5 feet. It is on a small electric motor that turns at >7.5 revolutions per minute, or every 8 seconds. Sounds like the motor that rotates the tray. >I pulled the motor out of a microwave oven. So the electric >motor plugs into the wall. Fortunately or unfortunately, I can't >do any more experimentation on myself until I'm attacked again. >So that's all I can tell you for now. Of course if this specific setup doesn't help, I'd be tempted to try larger magnets and/or perhaps spinning at higher speeds. If care is taken to balance the assembly, and ruggedly mount the bar magnet, one might try fixing the magnet across the hub of an electric fan. A stout cage or box would provide protection against the magnet coming loose. The fan blades should be
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 28 Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 16:04:16 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 06:58:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! - Hatch >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 12:52:04 -0600 >Subject: Re: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 04:33:34 -0800 >>Subject: Save Bob Pratt's Web Pages! <snip> >I pulled it down as well, but was hesitant in setting up a >mirror site without permission of the family. I had exchanged a >couple of messages with Bob, but didn't know him well. Indeed, a >loss to the field. Hi Steve, Terry, John and others who kindly responded on-List and off. Its good that Bob's site is saved on disk, CD etc., with multiple copies there's no chance all that work will be lost. I'm having definite second thoughts about mirroring the site at this time. There are definite copyright issues here for one thing, nobody has rights to his stuff except his family. As long as his original site stays up, which could be for weeks, months or longer, there is an issue of 'duplicate content' as seen by Google, Yahoo etc. A site that copies the Pratt pages could be severely penalized in the search listings or SERPs as they are called. If anyone puts them up regardless, I would suggest password- protecting them, masking them off with robots.txt for now so they don't get indexed and rated by the engines, etc. I have 71 pages total now, saved on disk in folders with images for each page, but nowhere online. Bob wanted his adventures / findings public or he wouldn't have put them up. I never met Bob, only corresponded, and don't know his family at all. If somebody knows them personally, maybe that person could ask about the domain, pages, permission to copy etc., after a suitable delay of course. My fear that the material would be lost are laid to rest for now. As for the domain name www.(you-know-who).org, Bob registered it for four years at Network Solutions on 18-Feb-2002 15:45:24 UTC. That means it expires on 18-Feb-2006 at the same time, 15:45 UTC = 7:45 AM Pacific time, 10:45 AM Eastern. If somebody wants to register it, they should log on to Network Solutions minutes after that time, credit card in hand, and buy it on the spot before the pirates get wind of it. By all means get permission from the family first. They may want to re- register themselves as a memorial to Bob. In a way, that's the best solution. That's under 3 months from now, and probably a good time to broach the matter to Mrs. Pratt et.al. Please nobody try to 'backorder' the domain name, inquire about it online or anything like that, _especially_ with a bordello like GoDaddy and other cheap registrars. Insiders at these, er, institutions sniff the slightest interest, snatch up domains within the hour and hold them for ransom. No need to mention the exact URL like I foolishly did earlier. We all know what it is and can pass it along off-List. Can my original post be edited to remove the URL?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 28 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:31:14 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 07:30:57 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:44:51 -0800 >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:52:33 -0800 >>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>>Accounts of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens >>>have one eerie similarity. <snip> >>The original article is featured in the Skeptic magazine Vol. >>11, No 4 >>http://tinyurl.com/excpm <snip> >Despite the learned professor's degrees and many papers, this >particular paper is full of BS (Bunk Science). The more I read >it, the more I realized Malmstrom has a poor grasp of basic >visual science. The problem is he's read enough to make an >average reader think he knows what he's talking about, but he >doesn't know enough to realize he's in way over his head. Hence >garbage masquerading as "science." His superficial knowledge >combined with the blur function on a paint program makes him a >public menace. <snip> Hi David! Thanks for your long but very informative review and critique of Frederick Malmstrom's paper in 'Skeptic' magazine. This is not the only time a learned professor has presented such "Bunk Science" to explain such widely reported experiences which many scientists cannot accept as real but feel compelled to give prosaic explanations for, even if they are very silly ones like Malmstrom's. One of these was exobiologist Carl Sagan, author of 'Broca's Brain'. His theory was that those who had near-death or out-of-body experiences were actually re-living their experience at birth. The "light at the end of the tunnel" which is commonly described in NDEs or the "silver cord" mentioned in the Bible and is often part of OBEs was to be understood as the passage of the new born through their mother's birth canal or vagina! Sagan's far fetched beliefs did not prevent CSICOPs from having him give the keynote address at their Seattle conference in 1994 where subjects such as alien abductions, the reliability of memory and UFOs were discussed. The 'Center for Inquiry Transnational', parent organization of CSICOPs which is allied with the 'Council for Secular Humanism', has recently been granted "special consultive status" at the United Nations (which I guess puts John Velez's petition for the U.N. to hold an open hearing into UFOs in doubt). With the great influence Sagan had on the public's thinking about space, UFOs, extraterrestrial life and God and now by new skeptics/debunkers such as Malmstrom who attack our "religious" beliefs and dismiss our real life experiences, I do not consider these people as public menaces but a tyrannical force that is out to promote only its version of the truth to the world. Science advances through the reinterpretation and scientific debate of new
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 28 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 06:26:15 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 07:34:41 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:44:51 -0800 >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:52:33 -0800 >>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>>Accounts of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens >>>have one eerie similarity. >>>When serious researchers like psychologist Frederick Malmstrom >>>have asked self-proclaimed abductees what their out-of-this- >>>world kidnappers looked like, they inevitably describe beings >>>with large heads, big eyes, gray skin, smooth features, a >>>barely visible or absent mouth and smallish bodies. >>>Malmstrom, a visiting scholar at the U.S. Air Force Academy, >>>now thinks he recognizes that face. It's Mommy -- or at least >>>the image of a "prototypical female face" that's hard-wired >>>into a baby's brain and helps newborns instantly respond to >>>their mothers. >>The original article is featured in the Skeptic magazine Vol. >>11, No 4 >>http://tinyurl.com/excpm >>Frederick V. Malmstrom: >>Currently Visiting Scholar for Honor, USAF Academy, CO (1999- >>present). >>Psychology supervisor (Ohio, retired): Orient Correctional >>Institution, London Correctional Institution, Chillicothe >>Correctional Institution 1990-1999. Ohio psychology license >>#4360. Lt Colonel (retired), USAFR (1957-1996). >>Two combat tours Vietnam. Former assistant professor of >>psychology, USAF Academy (1971-74), University of Southern >>California (1978-84), University of Dayton (1988-89). Author >>of 75 professional articles on topics ranging from >>physiological optics to UFOs to mental health reform. Frequent >>contributor to Flying Safety Magazine. (Monument, Colorado >>United States) <snip> >Malmstrom may be a good pychologist in some aspects of the >field >(like dealing with the moral turpitude of Air Force cadets, >apparently one of his specialties), but he is obviously not a >trained vision scientist. If he tried to present these arguments >before a group of real vision experts, he would be hooted off >the stage as a charlatan. >His paper is a very good example of what can happen when >people, >even those with PhD's, argue outside of their field of >expertise. Having a debunker mentality also doesn't help. >Frankly his paper is a scientfic embarrassment. This is why the >Skeptical Inquirer will no doubt love it. Thank you again David Rudiak for showing us how it's supposed to be done! I want my David Rudiak t-shirt and autograph! I won't even start with how many psychologists I've sent the story on Malstrom to and how long it took for them to pull themselves off the floor from laughing to respond. Bottom line is why in the world would we even entertain any report from or associated with the Air Force? How many reports are they going to put out to try to whitewash this situation and still make themselves look like a bunch of knuckleheads? Is there another Roswell final report due? Are they going to claim not crash test dummies but clones of crash test dummies this time around? No, I've a better one, they were 'alternate evil universe crash test dummies'. This report is another meager attempt at grasping at straws and using the old tired and degrading technique of using psychology or psychiatry to invalidate us interlopers. You can tell how close to the truth you're getting when the opposition pulls out some pseudo high brow opinions. I know many ufologists have degrees or some such in the fields of psychology and psychiatry, or have associates and/or family and might be shy to speak out, yet more analysis by you folk will be welcomed. You have to admit that again, when the raw data collected for half a century says otherwise the opposition pulls out some nonsense, that old threat of mental perception and/or stability to scare people into submission. Well it didn't work. Not by a longshot. This latest attempt by the Air Force is an embarrassment to that heroic branch of our military and as far as I'm concerned nullifies any future reports. They had their chance and goofed it up again by insulting our intelligence with this foolishness. I've always said an invader worth his warp core doesn't take over a planet with bombs and ray guns. They do it with persuasion and coercion. Why engage in such collateral damage? There are mind games going on which makes the physical evidence and perceptual evidence a challenge. Could be built-in or introduced by some other via so I guess I'm guilty of speculating. Yet the deeds define the motivation and the results, the means whereby. Stealth, coercion, manipulation, invalidation, threats of incarceration. All cowardly ways of control. I'd say this year in ufology was the year of the mind game. We win this one and the cloak of mystery will unravel faster than a cheap yarn sweater. We know the enemy clearly. We now need to know our allies better.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 28 Body Language Or How To Get ET To Phone Home From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 08:00:19 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 08:00:19 -0500 Subject: Body Language Or How To Get ET To Phone Home Source: The Stanford Daily Online - Stanford University, California http://tinyurl.com/duns7 Monday, November 28, 2005 Body Language, Or How To Get ET To Phone Home Stanford Single By Marie Christine Cannizzaro Columnist I've always been one to do things a little... differently. When the other middle school kids were showing off their designer jeans, I was flaunting pink leggings and a "World's Best Mom" sweatshirt. While my classmates wrote their college essays about what it was like to see a poor person once, I wrote about my favorite pen (I really am obsessed with office supplies). So it seems logical that when everyone else was applying for consulting or investment banking internships last summer, I called up the people that look for aliens. If you've seen the movie Contact with Jodie Foster, you've heard of the SETI Institute =97 it's where they Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. They also perform a bunch of other functions, like employ physicists, astrobiologists and engineers to research "the origin, nature and prevalence of life in the universe." But I didn't care too much about that other stuff; I wanted to talk to the Martians! Enter Douglas Vakoch, SETI's director of interstellar message composition. I got in touch with Dr. Vakoch through the "Astrobiology and Space Exploration" course I took winter quarter, and as soon as we met I knew we had to work together. He tries to communicate with aliens; I try to communicate with men. It was a match made in heaven (literally). Although I didn't get the chance to talk to any aliens per se, I did do a lot of research on nonverbal communication that will be used as a foundation for creating interstellar messages. And I learned a great deal about how humans use gesture, eye gaze, posture and body orientation to convey information like dominance and emotional state. What I'm trying to say is that I can read you like an open book. Your secrets are no longer safe. With one studied glance I will know who you are, what you're thinking and the last time you went to the bathroom without washing your hands (answer: yesterday). Some people are intimidated by my newfound powers, which they express by avoiding eye contact and orienting their body toward the door whenever I walk into the room. I, in turn, express dominance by standing up straight and shouting, "I CAN READ YOUR MIND AND SOME DAY I WILL SPEAK TO THE ALIENS!" If you've ever wondered how an attractive and intelligent female like me manages to stay single, well, now you have your answer. But for those of you who would like to experience the pleasures of companionship one day, you can learn the secrets of body language and use them covertly to attract that hot guy/girl/Klingon. The following is what I've learned so far: Appropriate eye contact screams "confidence." Inappropriate eye contact =97 such as avoiding direct gaze or staring without blinking =97 screams "serial killer." Other things that scream "serial killer" are carrying bloody knives, mumbling incoherently and introducing yourself as Bob the Serial Killer. Body orientation indicates direction of attention. If you want to show someone you're interested, you should orient your body toward that person when you are talking. Conversely, if they aren't oriented toward you, they're not giving you their maximum attention (unless this person is a contortionist, in which case I will pay you $20 to give me his or her number). Mirroring your partner's movements shows affiliation. Now this is a little tricky, because if you mimic everything your partner does, you are going to look like a fool, particularly if they have a nervous tic and the two of you spend hours hitting yourselves while everyone else in the bar looks on in fear. But subtly following your partner's body language cues (i.e. head movements, gestures, etc.) conveys a sense of association and friendliness. Kicking a man in the groin with your stilettos ruins his Special Dinner and destroys his dream of fathering children, but indicates that you do not enjoy being groped without express permission. Did you pick up on that nonverbal cue, Bob? The moral of the story: verbal communication is only one way humans (and presumably, extraterrestrials) express themselves, and it is important to keep this in mind when mingling with the opposite sex. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to retrieve my stiletto from Bob, whose body is currently oriented in the fetal position. Marie can't really read your mind, but she can read your feedback. Comment on this article at www.stanfordsingle.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 28 Re: Response To Kevin Randle's Exopolitics From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 09:28:28 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:36:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Response To Kevin Randle's Exopolitics >From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:49:56 -1000 >Subject: Response To Kevin Randle's Exopolitics Critique >A Reply to Dr Kevin Randle's Critique of Exopolitics >Dr Kevin Randle, has produced a thoughtful critique of my >reliance on whistleblower testimonies as a basis for getting to >the truth about the UFO cover up and the extraterrestrial >hypothesis. See "Exopolitics", 18 November 2006 >http://www.kevinrandle.blogspot.com <snip> >This is an important process issue that whistleblower >testimonies force researchers to confront, albeit with great >reluctance as evidenced by Dr Randle's critique. I nevertheless >thank Dr Randle for providing his critique and giving me an >opportunity to reply, and explain the appropriateness of my >exopolitical approach to whistleblower testimony. Michael: You really don't seem to understand or don't want to. That Dean may have been at the place he claims and with a clearance doesn't explain how he would have had a need-to-know for the document he supposedly saw. The notion that Lazar had to have at least a BS degree is nonsense. Only about 30% of the people at LANL had degrees. There are technicians, secretaries, electricians, carpenters, janitors, security guards. Most did not have degrees. People who finish in the bottom third of their high school class don't go to MIT or Carnegie Tech. USAF FTD had wreckage in 1947 and dozens of people to both evaluate it and send some to industry. Corso was not a scientist or an engineer. Army FTD had 2 people and for most of the time Corso was the Jr. officer, starting in 1960... and yet he saved the world? I recognize that you will believe what you want to believe. Kevin and I accept that Roswell happened and there is a Cosmic Wartergate. But each claim must be evaluated before being blindly accepted as you have. Do you really think a Senate Committee in Ottawa will blindly accept all claims because you
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 28 Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? - Myers From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 07:29:03 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:40:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? - Myers Reportedly from Bulgaria: http://www.lookatentertainment.com/v/v-1783.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 28 Re: Daily Express Rendlesham Article - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 09:46:52 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:42:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Daily Express Rendlesham Article - Groff >From: Nick Pope <nick.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 21:37:24 -0000 >Subject: Daily Express Rendlesham Article >On November 19 the Daily Express ran a double page article on >the Rendlesham Forest UFO incident. They commissioned the >article from me in the run-up to the 25th anniversary of the UFO >sightings. It's not available online, but the newspaper only >made very minor editorial amendments, such as changing "light- >alls" into "lamps", so what follows under the headline below is >my original submission. <snip> >One piece of equipment that didn't malfunction was the hand-held >tape recorder that the colonel took with him to document his >investigation. The tape recording still survives and one can >hear the rising tension in Halt's voice and the voices of his >men, as the UFO approaches: >"I see it too... it's back again... it's coming this way ... >there's no doubt about it... this is weird... it looks like an >eye winking at you... it almost burns your eyes... he's coming >toward us now... now we're observing what appears to be a beam >coming down to the ground... one object still hovering over >Woodbridge base... beaming down". >At one point the tension in their voices almost seems to become >panic as the UFO makes a close approach and fires light beams >down on Halt and his men. I've listened to this tape and it is kind of chilling. You can definitely hear the tension in the men's voices. For those few of you who haven't heard this tape you can hear it at: Stream http://terrygroff.com/dfwmufon/audio/halt_tape.m3u Download http://terrygroff.com/dfwmufon/audio/halt_tape.mp3 or read the transcript at: http://terrygroff.com/dfwmufon/audio/halt_tape.txt <snip> >So what are we to make of all this? UFO believers are convinced >that the sightings involved an extraterrestrial spacecraft. They >still hold skywatches in the forest and claim to see UFOs on a >regular basis. The sceptical theories are almost as bizarre, >with people variously suggesting that the highly trained >military witnesses actually saw the lights of a police car, or >the beam from the local lighthouse. "Lighthouses don't fly", >Charles Halt observed, incredulously. More rational sceptical >theories include the testing of some sort of prototype aircraft, >but the bottom line is that while at any given time there are >things being developed that you won't see at the Farnborough >airshow for 10 or 15 years, we know where we fly our own >hardware. The 'black projects' theory doesn't fly. <snip>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 28 Re: Something For Repeat Abductees To Try? - Aubeck From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck.nul> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:27:59 +0000 (GMT) Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:46:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Something For Repeat Abductees To Try? - Aubeck >From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:35:41 -0500 >Subject: Something For Repeat Abductees To Try? >This post is _not_ to suggest that abductions are >"mental only". I'm confident, given all the evidence I've heard >about that they are real, physical abductions. However, it does >appear that the abductors use advanced technology to paralyze or >block the will to resist. >One of our members in the advanced electronic harassment camp, >where we are hit with "UFO-class" technology which can remotely >manipulate and levitate us and our possessions, has reported >complete cessation of the mind/body effects which in his case >include voice to skull transmissions, sleep disruption, >unpleasant dream inducement, and pain. >He simply tried a small fairly powerful rare earth bar magnet >turning at 7.5 rpm within 5 feet of where he tries to sleep. >One wonders if this simple setup might disrupt abductors' >technology to some extent, making it at least more difficult to >prevent an abduction from taking place. <snip> Hi Eleanor, I have around twenty, large, neodymium magnets, ranging up to N48 in strength (ie, extremely powerful), which I experiment with. I honestly can't see how they could affect advanced alien technology, spinning or otherwise. Most of the fear about rare earth magnets and their impact on technology is a myth - yes, it is wise to take care when you are using strong magnets, but no, they do not automatically spell doom and destruction for hi-tech gadgetry. I can place my neodymium block on the keyboard of my laptop with no bad consequences, and my mobile phone sits happily next to one in my pocket if I'm taking it somewhere. I have just tried twirling a strong rare earth magnetic cylinder on a piece of string in front of my PDA, laptop and phone to see what would happen, but nothing does. I have also tried wiping floppy discs and memory sticks with a magnet but with very limited success, though any magnetic strip on a bus ticket or card quickly gets deleted. I would say that a Gray's only risk when confronted with a neodymium magnet is that his credit cards will get wiped. --- 2003-2004 Archives and links http://anomalies.bravepages.com/main.htm 2004-present Archives at the Yahoo Group Website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/magonia_exchange/ Other pages of interest: http://caubeck.tripod.com/lang/ http://caubeck.tripod.com/the_sport_of_flying_saucers/index.html http://caubeck.tripod.com/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 28 Secrecy News -- 11/28/05 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood.nul> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:56:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:48:00 -0500 Subject: Secrecy News -- 11/28/05 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy Volume 2005, Issue No. 108 November 28, 2005 ** DECLASSIFICATION OF CAPTURED IRAQI DOCUMENTS URGED ** USE OF FOIA EXEMPTIONS RISES ** MEASURING PROGRESS AGAINST TERRORISM (CRS) ** MUSLIMS IN EUROPE: INTEGRATION POLICIES (CRS) ** CHINA: NAVAL MODERNIZATION (CRS) ** CHINA: INTERNET DEVELOPMENT AND INFORMATION CONTROL (CRS) ** THE ORIGINS OF NSA DECLASSIFICATION OF CAPTURED IRAQI DOCUMENTS URGED In an unusual expression of support for public access to official records, the chairmen of the House and Senate intelligence committees have asked the Director of National Intelligence to process millions of pages of documents captured in Iraq for declassification and public release. The request, in a November 18 letter from Rep. Pete Hoekstra and Sen. Pat Roberts, is focused exclusively on foreign documents obtained during military operations in Iraq from Desert Storm to the present. But the two legislators implicitly present a critique of classification practices that is broadly applicable throughout the national security classification system. The chairmen explained that the standard practice of classifying the Iraq documents in an attempt to avoid all risk from disclosure is self-defeating and sharply diminishes the intelligence value of the records. "The current approach by the Intelligence Community requires that only cleared individuals look at this vast amount of data, and nearly guarantees that exploitation will take decades, if ever, to complete," they wrote. Conversely, they argued, publication of the records could "dramatically" increase their intelligence value by harnessing the expertise of the interested public. Such publication "would serve to allow the entrepreneurial, linguistic and analytic talents of the general public to dramatically assist the Intelligence Community in understanding the contents of these materials," the Committee Chairmen wrote. A copy of their letter, which was previously reported by the Associated Press, is here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/11/hpsci111805.pdf Unfortunately, the clarity of their message was compromised when they added uncritically that "Without question, intelligence sources and methods would have to be protected." If the protection of "sources and methods" is unconditional and cannot be questioned, no matter how obvious or trivial the sources or methods may be, then even unclassified records cannot be released without prior translation and review. The chairmen failed to confront the fact that their call for document disclosure is inconsistent with absolute protection of intelligence sources and methods. "I would like to get these documents into the public domain in hopes that academics, journalists, bloggers and other interested people can help clear this backlog," said Chairman Hoekstra in a news release. "In the end, I think the government, and the public, will benefit from having all these documents translated." http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2005/11/hpsci111805-release.pdf The House and Senate intelligence committees are effectively fractured along partisan lines, and the letter from the Republican committee chairmen was not co-signed by the committees' Democratic leaders. To date, there has been no formal response from the DNI, a committee staff member said. USE OF FOIA EXEMPTIONS RISES Government agencies are making increased use of exemptions from the Freedom of Information Act to withhold information that would have been released in the past, according to a new study. The study by the Coalition of Journalists for Open Government compared FOIA responses and denials in 2000 and 2004. It found that unclassified information was increasingly being withheld from FOIA requesters using exemptions for intra- or interagency memoranda, internal personnel rules and practices, and proprietary information. See "When Exemptions Become the Rule," Coalition of Journalists for Open Government, November 22, 2005: http://www.cjog.net/documents/Exemptions_Study.pdf The study was reported in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution on November 23. MEASURING PROGRESS AGAINST TERRORISM (CRS) There is a temptation to evaluate progress in the war on terrorism by using parameters that lend themselves to numerical measurement: the number of terrorists killed or detained, the quantity of enemy assets confiscated, the growth in budgets for homeland security, etc. But because terrorism is a complex and multi-dimensional problem, such simple quantitative measures may be misleading, according to a new report from the Congressional Research Service. Some attacks on terrorists may exacerbate the threat and enhance terrorist recruitment, while increased resources devoted to security could be considered a self-imposed economic injury. The new CRS report, which was first disclosed in the Wall Street Journal, explains the problem and describes some alternatives. See "Combating Terrorism: The Challenge of Measuring Effectiveness," November 23, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/terror/RL33160.pdf MUSLIMS IN EUROPE: INTEGRATION POLICIES (CRS) The efforts of four European governments to integrate their growing Muslim populations are explored in a new report from the Congressional Research Service. See "Muslims in Europe: Integration Policies in Selected Countries," November 18, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33166.pdf CHINA: NAVAL MODERNIZATION (CRS) The rapid growth of Chinese naval capabilities is the subject of a major new Congressional Research Service report. See "China Naval Modernization: Implications for U.S. Navy Capabilities -- Background and Issues for Congress," November 18, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33153.pdf CHINA: INTERNET DEVELOPMENT AND INFORMATION CONTROL (CRS) Another new CRS report describes Chinese government censorship of online content and the options for circumventing such censorship. See "Internet Development and Information Control in the People's Republic of China," November 22, 2005: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33167.pdf THE ORIGINS OF NSA The evolution of the U.S. signals intelligence capability from Pearl Harbor to the establishment of the National Security Agency in 1952 is the subject of a newly declassified NSA history volume. The internal history traces "the struggle between centralized and decentralized control of SIGINT, interservice and interagency rivalries, budget problems, tactical versus national strategic requirements, the difficulties of mechanization of processes, and the rise of a strong bureaucracy." The document was originally produced in classified form in 1990 under the title "The Origins of NSA" (which is also the title of an unclassified NSA public affairs brochure). The declassified version, published by the NSA Center for Cryptologic History earlier this year in hard copy only, is now entitled "The Quest for Cryptologic Centralization and the Establishment of NSA: 1940-1952." A scanned copy of the 129 page volume is available here in a large 6.6 MB PDF file: http://www.fas.org/irp/nsa/quest.pdf A hardcopy original may be obtained while supplies last by sending a request with mailing address to history.nul _______________________________________________ Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation of American Scientists. To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to secrecy_news-request.nul with "subscribe" in the body of the message. OR email your request to saftergood.nul Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html Secrecy News has an RSS feed at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.rss SUPPORT Secrecy News with a donation here: http://www.fas.org/static/contrib_sec.jsp _______________________ Steven Aftergood
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 28 Radio Hosts Chime In On Canadian ET Disclosure From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:39:59 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:49:22 -0500 Subject: Radio Hosts Chime In On Canadian ET Disclosure Well I'll be gobsmacked! I was wondering if Art Bell would chime in on former Canadian Defense Minister Hellyer's campaign to disclose UFO/ET data, and Art did in a big way. Yet I was glued to my chair when popular radio host Alex Jones spent a good deal discussing the matter as well on his broadcast today! Jones seemed genuinely shaken by the news and although he tried to shy away, had to backtrack and emphasize the magnitude of this story. At first Jones went into a knee-jerk bending toward referring to the story as crazy but he caught himself. He emphasized that Mr. Hellyer's post was nothing less than the equivalent of our own Vice President's post. That's a big step. The mainstream can't sidestep this now. Yet I fear sooner than later Mr. Hellyear's sanity will be brought into play to discredit him. Jones added that he felt the U.S. and globalists had been planning a faked ET landing in hopes to bind mankind. That to me was interesting as I'd read and heard of it before but that would take more evidence than if ETs were visiting. I had said numerous times that a foreign government, most likely one of our enemies would break out some UFO/ET data as it all couldn't be kept secret, yet it looks like a lot of it has. If Hellyer holds his ground, it validates Friedman's Cosmic Watergate theory and would invalidate all the Air Force gabble we've been dished out over the last 50 years. I'm surprised that both France and Canada have made such leaps forward. We can't say our enemies did it. It was our own neighbors. Even Mexico. So the U.S. is covered from top to bottom with neighboring countries disclosing info faster than a high school cheerleading captain. That's like neighbor Smith and neighbor Jones living on opposite sides of neighbor Brown reporting the same thing and neighbor Brown telling his family nothing is there. I don't expect the mainstream press to give this story it's due. They'd lose too much money from advertisers if they did. Plus with the CIA payrolled reporters looking at going into debt if they do, I suspect this story to end up in a kill bin before long. It's a good time to keep on our toes for the next lame attempt at disinformation and invalidation of this latest story. Maybe Mexico, Canada, France can team up. I'm sure they've the resources to glean more data. Now, if other countries chime in the snowball will start rolling faster.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 28 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:40:41 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:10:20 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 06:26:15 EST >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:44:51 -0800 >>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:52:33 -0800 >>>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>>>Accounts of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens >>>>have one eerie similarity. >>>>When serious researchers like psychologist Frederick Malmstrom >>>>have asked self-proclaimed abductees what their out-of-this- >>>>world kidnappers looked like, they inevitably describe beings >>>>with large heads, big eyes, gray skin, smooth features, a >>>>barely visible or absent mouth and smallish bodies. >>>>Malmstrom, a visiting scholar at the U.S. Air Force Academy, >>>>now thinks he recognizes that face. It's Mommy -- or at least >>>>the image of a "prototypical female face" that's hard-wired >>>>into a baby's brain and helps newborns instantly respond to >>>>their mothers. >>>Frederick V. Malmstrom: >>>Currently Visiting Scholar for Honor, USAF Academy, CO (1999- >>>present). ><snip> >>Malmstrom may be a good pychologist in some aspects of the >field >>(like dealing with the moral turpitude of Air Force cadets, >>apparently one of his specialties), but he is obviously not a >>trained vision scientist. If he tried to present these arguments >>before a group of real vision experts, he would be hooted off >>the stage as a charlatan. >>His paper is a very good example of what can happen when >people, >>even those with PhD's, argue outside of their field of >>expertise. Having a debunker mentality also doesn't help. >>Frankly his paper is a scientfic embarrassment. This is why the >>Skeptical Inquirer will no doubt love it. >Thank you again David Rudiak for showing us how it's supposed >to be done! >I want my David Rudiak t-shirt and autograph! I have a special this week--only $19.95 plus S&H. The T-shirt brilliantly demonstrates how my Daddy face morphs into a primal Darth Vader meme if placed only 1 cm in front of a newborn infant's face. My autograph similarly morphs into "alien heiroglyphics" that are "strikingly similar" to those reported by alleged alien abductees. Thus there is undoubtedly a primal hieroglyphics meme also deeply imbedded in our reptilian midbrains. >I won't even start with how many psychologists I've sent the >story on Malstrom to and how long it took for them to pull >themselves off the floor from laughing to respond. >Bottom line is why in the world would we even entertain any >report from or associated with the Air Force? How many reports >are they going to put out to try to whitewash this situation and >still make themselves look like a bunch of knuckleheads? Malmstrom's article was also brilliantly crafted to stimulate the primitive Knucklehead Meme buried in yet another region of the brain - I forget which, maybe Sagan's "Bocca's Brain." This is why the psychologists fell helplessly to the floor laughing. The Knucklehead Meme was first investigated about 60 years ago by a southern California research team known as The Three Stooges. Like the other primal Memes, the Knucklehead Meme probably has survival value. Falling to the floor laughing may have had saved the psychologists' lives from low-flying jet aircraft piloted by drunken Air Force cadets. >Is there another Roswell final report due? Are they going to >claim not crash test dummies but clones of crash test dummies >this time around? No, that's not stupid enough. >No, I've a better one, they were 'alternate evil universe crash >test dummies'. That's better. >This report is another meager attempt at grasping at straws and >using the old tired and degrading technique of using psychology >or psychiatry to invalidate us interlopers. >You can tell how close to the truth you're getting when the >opposition pulls out some pseudo high brow opinions. I call this Occam's Rule of Thumb. The quality of a particular case or UFO evidence in general is in direct proportion to the amount of harebrained debunkery directed against it. >This latest attempt by the Air Force is an embarrassment to that >heroic branch of our military and as far as I'm concerned >nullifies any future reports. They had their chance and goofed >it up again by insulting our intelligence with this foolishness. You always wonder about guys like Malmstrom. Was this article his own foolishness or does he know better and somebody else put him up to it? The fact that he currently works at the Air Force Academy does make it doubly suspicious. I keep hoping the article was an April Fool's joke that got out of hand. <snip> >I'd say this year in ufology was the year of the mind game. We >win this one and the cloak of mystery will unravel faster than a >cheap yarn sweater. The Roswell "Bodysnatchers in the Desert" yarn this year may have been another of these psyops operations, as a number of us suspect. Here's another possible one making the rounds right now: "Project Serpo The Zeta Reticuli Exchange Program" http://www.serpo.org/information.html This is an elaborate, imaginative, and interesting tale from another supposed military leaker about what was supposedly learned from an exchange program with the Zeta Reticuli EBE's. 12 volunteers supposedly traveled back to the Z.R. home world and lived there for a number of years, studied the planet and culture, etc., etc. Some critics note there is some obvious nonsense about the Z.R. planet and solar system orbital mechanics, axis of tilt, length of day vs. night, differing physics in the Z.R. system, etc. The question then arises is the tale completely made up, or a mix of truth and fiction, with bunk deliberately inserted for plausible deniability? Vallee got out of the field because of all the disinformation being pumped into it that made sorting truth from fiction nearly impossible. He warned that the Air Force psyops people regularly played such games and that researchers often got sucker-punched with it. Malmstrom's article is a bit different in that it is such easily
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 29 Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 01:14:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 07:42:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes - Ledger >From: Alfred Lehmberg <alienview.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 06:46:40 -0600 >Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes >>From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:37:14 -0400 >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Bob Pratt Passes >>>From: A. J. Gevaerd - Revista UFO <gevaerd.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:42:02 -0200 >>>Subject: Re: Bob Pratt Passes >>>Let me strongly recommend to all of you: >>>UFO Danger Zone: Terror & Death In Brazil by Bob Pratt >>>http://tinyurl.com/cbo2k >>I was saddened to hear of Bob's passing. >>I have that book, A.J. It was a great read, truly exciting and >>thought provoking. I had e-mailed him a couple of years ago >>about one of the cases therein. >>He certainly walked the walk of the true, not just talked the >>talk of an investigator of the phenomenon. Would that there were >>more like him. >Had you noticed how the mainstream has spun this fine, _fine_ >man as a writer of National Inquirer tabloid articles and all >that _that_ implies? Back in it's earlier days the National Inquirer was more of a
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 29 Re: Radio Hosts Chime In On Canadian ET Disclosure From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 07:21:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 07:45:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Radio Hosts Chime In On Canadian ET Disclosure >From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:39:59 EST >Subject: Radio Hosts Chime In On Canadian ET Disclosure >Well I'll be gobsmacked! >I was wondering if Art Bell would chime in on former Canadian >Defense Minister Hellyer's campaign to disclose UFO/ET data, and >Art did in a big way. >Yet I was glued to my chair when popular radio host Alex Jones >spent a good deal discussing the matter as well on his broadcast >today! >Jones seemed genuinely shaken by the news and although he tried >to shy away, had to backtrack and emphasize the magnitude of >this story. One has to wonder how Jones will be impacted by the collapse of the Canadian Government, with winter elections now slated for
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 29 Alarm Over Argentine Teens UFO Sighting From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 07:48:11 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:46:16 -0500 Subject: Alarm Over Argentine Teens UFO Sighting INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology November 29, 2005 SOURCE: Planeta UFO Date: 11.28.05 Alarm In Neuquen Over Teenage UFO Sighting Three young men claimed haivng seen a UFO in a field in the locality of Vista Alegre, Neuqu=E9n. "It was a circular light that lit up suddenly and then vanished." Three young men claimed having seen an unidentified flying object (UFO) this morning in a field of the small locality of Vista Alegre, some 25 km from the provincial capital. The strange event mobilized provincial authorities to the place and to even notify the Air Force headquarters in Neuqu=E9n to participate in the case. Juan Carlos Manque said that this morning, while in the company of two friends, he witnessed a strange light in the sky as they walked past an area near the Costa de Reyes neighborhood in the locality of Vista Alegre, Neuqu=E9n. "It was a circular light that we saw at a certain distance, as though it were losing altitude. It caught our attention and we kept walking in that direction." Using their cell phones, the youths notified some relatives to come out of their homes and witness the phenomenon. Manque noted that at a given moment "the light was much stronger, it lit up suddenly and we were able to see how it lit up some 50 meters around it. That's when we felt sort of scared, but then it vanished all of a sudden." Police personnel from the locality of Centenario sent out several mobile units and personnel who reached the site and spoke to the teens who claimed having witnessed "a strange light". Police authorities also advised the Air Force command at Neuqu=E9n, which reported to Vista Alegre. Residents of this small community are still commenting about the event. Unidentified flying objects have been seen in this area as well as in other parts of the country, but it has been a long time since a sighting of these characteristics was reported. For more information:http://www.infobae.com/notas/nota.php?Idx=3D225328&Idx
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 29 Grass Roots UFOs Book Review From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:22:43 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:48:07 -0500 Subject: Grass Roots UFOs Book Review Grass Roots UFOs: Case Reports from the Timmerman Files, by Michael D. Swords (Fund for UFO Research, 2005, 250 pages, paperback). $22.00 postpaid from the Fund for UFO Research (FUFOR), P.O. Box 7501, Alexandria, VA 22307. Those of us who know Mike Swords, retired professor of natural sciences at Western Michigan University and a board member of the Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS), recognize his analytical mind and down-to-earth style on display in this minor masterpiece. John Timmerman, an officer of CUFOS, traveled around for many years with the CUFOS exhibit displayed at shopping malls and in other venues. During those years hundreds of cirizens from all walks of life described their personal UFO sightings (and also tidbits of alleged inside information) to him. Timmerman began to tape record the reports and preserve the stories for later study. A fascinating part of this book is the story of how it came to be written, ably narrated by Swords; how the hundreds of hours of tapes were preserved, transcribed, and finally digested into manageable form by Swords, whose well-known analytical talents are put to work here. As he notes in this aptly titled book, this is not exactly hardcore data over which scientists will swoon, but something more in the nature of folklore: suppressed information bubbling up in very human terms. People who have experienced odd events describe, with varying degrees of sophistication, what they observed. Their spontaneity and naturalness in conversational English that result in fascinating human testimony is part of the book's charm. Swords sorts the reported sightings into more than 40 categories, and his running commentary glues the book together into a meaningful whole. Because of the circumstances in which the stories were obtained, important data-points often are missing. Nevertheless, this "soft data" makes a compelling case that UFOs do represent an important scientific mystery that is being overlooked. The human interest content is high, including observations on people attending the exhibits and how they behaved. Despite the high density of sighting reports, the book is surprisingly readable and contains many little gems of information. The book is professionally and handsomely produced, with an artistically attractive slick cover, and is nicely organized. An index of sighting locations is included, along with
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 29 Re: Radio Hosts Chime In On Canadian ET Disclosure From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:05:19 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:50:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Radio Hosts Chime In On Canadian ET Disclosure >From: Steven Kaeser <steve.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 07:21:54 -0500 >Subject: Re: Radio Hosts Chime In On Canadian ET Disclosure >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:39:59 EST >>Subject: Radio Hosts Chime In On Canadian ET Disclosure >>Well I'll be gobsmacked! >>I was wondering if Art Bell would chime in on former Canadian >>Defense Minister Hellyer's campaign to disclose UFO/ET data, and >>Art did in a big way. >>Yet I was glued to my chair when popular radio host Alex Jones >>spent a good deal discussing the matter as well on his broadcast >>today! >>Jones seemed genuinely shaken by the news and although he >>tried to shy away, had to backtrack and emphasize the magnitude >>of this story. >One has to wonder how Jones will be impacted by the collapse of >the Canadian Government, with winter elections now slated for >early in the new year. If Jones is anything like me the fall of the Liberal Government will be received like an early Christmas present. But Hellyer's declarations will have no impact on the coming election. Most Canadians are unaware of his remarks or even who he is or was. >I can imagine this becoming one more tangent in the election, >and I'm not sure how it will be played out. It won't be an issue. If a new government gets in then it will all go out the window anyway. It will take a couple of years for a new government to settle in and find out what they can and can't do. The hierarchy changes, the bureaucracy changes at high levels and issues being attended to or handled at certain levels become moot or at least shoved to the back burner for a year or so, or forever if they don't get some visibility because it doesn't occur to the new government that they might actually exist.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 29 Re: Response To Kevin Randle's Exopolitics From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 05:13:29 -1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:52:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Response To Kevin Randle's Exopolitics >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 09:28:28 -0400 >Subject: Re: Response To Kevin Randle's Exopolitics Critique >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:49:56 -1000 >>Subject: Response To Kevin Randle's Exopolitics Critique >>A Reply to Dr Kevin Randle's Critique of Exopolitics >>Dr Kevin Randle, has produced a thoughtful critique of my >>reliance on whistleblower testimonies as a basis for getting to >>the truth about the UFO cover up and the extraterrestrial >>hypothesis. See "Exopolitics", 18 November 2006 >>http://www.kevinrandle.blogspot.com ><snip> >>This is an important process issue that whistleblower >>testimonies force researchers to confront, albeit with great >>reluctance as evidenced by Dr Randle's critique. I nevertheless >>thank Dr Randle for providing his critique and giving me an >>opportunity to reply, and explain the appropriateness of my >>exopolitical approach to whistleblower testimony. >Michael: >You really don't seem to understand or don't want to. >That Dean may have been at the place he claims and with a >clearance doesn't explain how he would have had a need-to-know >for the document he supposedly saw. Dean did not claim he had a "need to know", only that the Assessment had Ultra security compartmentalization in addition to the Cosmic clearance that all who worked in SHOC had. According to Dean, only officers had the Ultra clearance and Dean did not. Yet Dean was in charge of the Duty Roster for the officers and was highly regarded by them, in a collegial environment. Clearly, Dean was in a position to give favors in terms of plum times to officers, and this was implicitly understood by them. While I understand Kevin Randle's point that the Colonel's giving the Ultra classified Assessment is a security violation, I think it can be inferred he was doing a favor to a respected NCO who worked in the highly secure SHOC war room. It's natural to assume that in the collegial environment of SHOC, such favors happened and would be returned. I think your and Kevin's hard-line position that this would not occur overlooks what appears to have been a very collegial environment and the fraternization that occurs between senior NCOs and officers. While Dean has not offered hard evidence, his prestigious service record and laying his reputation on the line in coming forward warrant serious consideration of his testimony. Combined with Dean's clear sincerity, consistency, detailed knowledge, and physical placement in SHOC, I conclude Robert Dean is credible and his testimony worth accepting. >The notion that Lazar had to have at least a BS degree is >nonsense. Only about 30% of the people at LANL had degrees. >There are technicians, secretaries, electricians, carpenters, >janitors, security guards. Most did not have degrees. People who >finish in the bottom third of their high school class don't go >to MIT or Carnegie Tech. In the 1982 Los Alamos Monitor interview, Lazar is referred to as a Scientist working at the Meson Particle Facility. That's very different to him being a technician, secretary, electrician, carpenter, janitor, security guard. While the reporter may not have checked on what he was told by Lazar, its very unlikely that Lazar as a new employee would refer to himself as a 'scientist', if he was a 'technician' without a Bachelor's degree. I think Knapp's continued support of the Lazar case clearly suggests that he is convinced by the evidence that Lazar had the credentials/positions he claims despite the absence of documentary evidence. Anyway, we've debated Lazar enough so let's just agree to disagree. >USAF FTD had wreckage in 1947 and dozens of people to both >evaluate it and send some to industry. Corso was not a scientist >or an engineer. Army FTD had 2 people and for most of the time >Corso was the Jr. officer, starting in 1960... and yet he saved >the world? Let's be clear that Corso consistently referred to the period when Lt Gen Trudeau was at the helm of Army Research and Development (1958-63) as the time when the world changing events occurred in terms of extraterrestrial technology being seeded into civilian industry. Corso was a little more subtle than you suggest in arrogating to himself such a role in history. In Corso's view, Trudeau was the hero, and he as Trudeau's trusted aide gets to have a little of the glory he ascribes to the General. >I recognize that you will believe what you want to believe. >Kevin and I accept that Roswell happened and there is a Cosmic >Wartergate. But each claim must be evaluated before being >blindly accepted as you have. Do you really think a Senate >Committee in Ottawa will blindly accept all claims because you >and Alfred and Hellyer want them to? I understand he was treated >with disdain by the Fox reporter. I don't "blindly accept" any whistleblower's claims just as you don't "blindly reject" any whistleblower's claims. I do the research and investigation where possible to determine their veracity, and rely on researchers who have done field investigations to reach an overall conclusion on their testimony. I don't think taking a parsimonious approach to whistleblower testimony that is skewed by unreasonable demands for documentation and hard evidence gets us very far in understanding what has happened with UFOs and the ETH. Yes, Cosmic Watergate does exist and Roswell did happen, but there is much more that has happened over the last 50 years and you consistently debunk those like Corso, Dean, Lazar, etc., who can fill in the gaps, and get us to the next stage which is assessing the policy implications of Cosmic Watergate. As for the Canadian Senate, I think you miss the point. When someone with Hellyer's credentials comes forward to support Corso's claims, people have great difficulty in ignoring what Hellyer says. The fact that Hellyer confirmed Corso's claims through his own network of military and political contacts, is something that makes others think anew about Corso's testimony and its implications. I believe that what we are witnessing is the start of a political process whereby Canada may be the world's first legislative body that discusses the policy implications of the weaponization of Space in relation to the extraterrestrial hypothesis. That is a positive development and I hope you lend your support to it based on your Cosmic Watergate thesis, rather than doggedly stick to your position that Corso's testimony is invalid. You are wrong about Corso and it's time you reconsider your position.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 29 Re: Response To Kevin Randle's Exopolitics From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:41:28 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:54:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Response To Kevin Randle's Exopolitics >From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 09:28:28 -0400 >Subject: Re: Response To Kevin Randle's Exopolitics Critique >>From: Michael Salla <exopolitics.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:49:56 -1000 >>Subject: Response To Kevin Randle's Exopolitics Critique >>A Reply to Dr Kevin Randle's Critique of Exopolitics >Do you really think a Senate Committee in Ottawa will blindly >accept all claims because you and Alfred and Hellyer want them >to? I understand he was treated with disdain by the Fox >reporter. The only thing I will comment on here re this thread, Stan, is your last remark re the Fox reporter's disdain. The Fox network should carry little weight on anything. Fox is so heavily biased toward Bush and is -if memory serves- owned by Bush's brother- in-law or some such relative. It's credibility is highly questionable. Let's set the record straight, the Canadian senate committee won't blindly accept anything other than a healthy paycheck [for services not rendered, or voted for] and for which they don't even have to show up for except once a year. They themselves carry very little weight in any event. For the edification of other nationalities on this list, Canada's senate is appointed, not voted in, and costs the taxpayer well over a billion dollars a year to maintain so that the governments of the past could pay off on political favors and backing. They are an entirely unnecessary entity with no power to change anything, save delay the passage of a bill until they are overruled by the government. For the most part the public has no respect for it and considers it a waste of their hard-earned tax dollars, which it is. Therefore the voters would have little respect for any of the Senates deliberations or decisions. Again, Hellyer has little standing in this country other than a few of us old fogies. He will not even be remembered for his days in Parliament or as a defense Minister. Unfortunately the military of that day had little defense from Hellyer when he screwed up the armed forces which became the Canadian Armed Forces. We have no Navy, Army or Air Force now, just the CAF. So this being the case, I see little chance of the military [in particular the military personnel of the 60s,70s and 80s backing up anything Hellyer had to say... be it the truth or not.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 29 Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:53:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:55:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? - Ledger >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 07:29:03 -0800 >Subject: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? >Reportedly from Bulgaria: >http://www.lookatentertainment.com/v/v-1783.htm Certainly interesting, Royce. It seems to be spinning as per the UFOs of the early years. Even though the camera is unsteady during close-ups,the object itself appears to be bouncing a bit on its own during it's track across the sky. Has all of the elements. Oval shaped, spinning, grey/silver and does a hasty
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 29 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:16:53 +0000 (GMT) Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:58:08 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:40:41 -0800 >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 06:26:15 EST >>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:44:51 -0800 >>>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> >>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>>>Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:52:33 -0800 >>>>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother Hello David, <snip> >>I'd say this year in ufology was the year of the mind game. >>We win this one and the cloak of mystery will unravel faster >>than a cheap yarn sweater. >The Roswell "Bodysnatchers in the Desert" yarn this year may >have been another of these psyops operations, as a number of >us suspect. You may be right, and Nick has consistently said that he can't rule out a disinfo element, but to put his own point back to you, why? Why stir up attention and debate on a case that from a research perspective had virtually died, that wasn't being actively discussed, and which irritates the crap out of most serious Ufologists? What's the point? Most people who have intelligently thought Roswell through had long ago come to the conclusion that they were never going to find out the truth and had put it to bed in their minds. The dangers of bringing it up again on the other hand are obvious. Because of renewed interest, someone, somewhere, might just stumble on something. Nick has actually just made an interesting discovery. He has come across this: http://www.archives.gov/iwg/meetings/minutes/minutes-062105.html It is a record of an inter agency discussion earlier this year in which the subject of releasing documentation relating to the activities of Unit 731 was discussed. The chilling point to this is that this meeting took place on the exact same day of publication of "Bodysnatchers". You have a number of choices with this information. You can take a pragmatic attitude and just accept that coincidences happen. You can seize on it, as you might, and say it further confirms that "Bodysnatchers" is part of some disinfo campaign, but I would be interested in your line of thought and reasoning on this if that is the way you go. Because if this is some smooth operation, then this latest twist is a bit cack handed and rather obvious. Or, it's classic disinfo in the sense that the truth or the partial truth is released but mixed with a contentious point or two, in this case the coincidence of the dates, all designed to get us squabbling, as we are now. Or, we can all stop being paranoid (to a degree at least - we don't want to give it up for good because it's rather enjoyable) and maybe accept that the U.S. government has finally decided in it's own way and without any fanfare to let us know what really happened, warts 'n all. After all, assuming the documents to be released are genuine, they are likely to further confirm, circumstantially at least, the authenticity of Nick's theories. >Here's another possible one making the rounds right now: >"Project Serpo The Zeta Reticuli Exchange Program" >http://www.serpo.org/information.html To me, my dear friend Rick Doty might just as well have put his signature at the end of this piece. It's classic him and Robert Collins. The real interesting point is why it's resurfaced now? I have commented on this at my blog:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 29 Re: Something For Repeat Abductees To Try? - From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:35:35 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:00:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Something For Repeat Abductees To Try? - >From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:27:59 +0000 (GMT) >Subject: Re: Something For Repeat Abductees To Try? >>From: Eleanor White <eleanor.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:35:41 -0500 >>Subject: Something For Repeat Abductees To Try? >>This post is _not_ to suggest that abductions are >>"mental only". I'm confident, given all the evidence I've heard >>about that they are real, physical abductions. However, it does >>appear that the abductors use advanced technology to paralyze or >>block the will to resist. <snip> >I have just tried twirling a strong rare earth magnetic cylinder >on a piece of string in front of my PDA, laptop and phone to see >what would happen, but nothing does. I have also tried wiping >floppy discs and memory sticks with a magnet but with very >limited success, though any magnetic strip on a bus ticket or >card quickly gets deleted. >I would say that a Gray's only risk when confronted with a >neodymium magnet is that his credit cards will get wiped. Hi Eleanor and Chris! I have to agree with Chris that a small but strong permanent rotating or spinning magnet will not affect most electronic and mechanical instruments, including CRT monitors and wrist watches, unless the magnets are positioned very close to them. As for preventing alien abductions, I cannot see how such small changing magnetic fields will achieve this. Of course, if the entire bedroom is wired to create a changing magnetic field so that it totally surrounds a person while he/she sleeps (or a small rotating permanent magnet is place very close to his/her head), it should not deter any "flesh and blood" Earthly or ET abductors but, according to findings by Dr. Michael Pesinger* of Laurentian University, it will induce symptoms that could be interpreted by some as an alien abduction experience. A few years ago I transported a very strong permanent horseshoe magnet to the class lecture hall and back from the physics lab. When I tried to use an ATM to withdraw some money from my bank account for lunch, I discovered that I could not use any of my bank or credit cards since what was on the magnetic strips on the back of the cards had been erased. Although my wallet containing thses cards was in my back pants pocket and the strength of the horseshoe magnet alone could not have erased the information, a changing magnetic field could. I concluded that as I walked with my arms swinging slightly back and forth while carrying this heavy magnet, I created the changing magnetic field that the cards in my back pocket were exposed to that erased them! Nick Balaskas * Although I have my reasons for seriously doubting Persinger's scientific intergrity while working as a seismologist for the Canadian Government that provide him with the data he used for one of his important UFO abduction related papers, TV Ontario did select him as one of the top 10 university lecturers in the province (two of the ten professors were from York University). It is interesting to note that earlier this month when TV Ontario broadcast the winning talk giving by the best university lecturer of the top 10, it was followed by the talk Paul Hellyer (once Canada's Minister of National Defense), gave at the Exopolitics symposium in Toronto on September 25. With the very positive commentary given to Hellyer by this Ontario Government
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 29 Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:44:11 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:01:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? - Balaskas >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 07:29:03 -0800 >Subject: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? >Reportedly from Bulgaria: >http://www.lookatentertainment.com/v/v-1783.htm <snip> Hi Royce! While we are at it, maybe someone can also comment on the photos of this other alien autopsy, allegedly by these named individuals in Yugoslavia back in 1966.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 29 Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? - Groff From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:46:57 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:03:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? - Groff >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 07:29:03 -0800 >Subject: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? >Reportedly from Bulgaria: >http://www.lookatentertainment.com/v/v-1783.htm >Regards, >Royce J. Myers III >UFOWATCHDOG.COM
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 30 Our State Claims Most UFO Sightings From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:09:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:09:49 -0500 Subject: Our State Claims Most UFO Sightings Source: Portales News-Tribune - Poartales, New Mexico, USA http://tinyurl.com/bn3xg Tuesday Novembe 29, 2005 Our State Claims Most UFO Sightings Bob Huber Local Columnist If you're a distinguished UFO-ologist emeritus like I am, you know that New Mexico holds the record for the most ballyhooed assaults from outer space. In fact, the coveted Black Hole Cup has been won by so many communities in this state that Rush Limbaugh has labeled them prime examples of liberal conspiracies. What's more, some senior citizens in Clovis continue to this day to boast about alleged sightings of "Clovis Lights," a spatial incident dating back 50 years when patterns of bright red chilies dotted the night sky. Sad to relate, only a few persons in Clovis knew what real chili was, so the aberration and its resulting heartburn faded into obscurity. In other New Mexico communities similar cosmic capers took place, such as the landing of a gigantic Corelle dinner plate at Socorro, constant humming of "Chloe" near Taos, glowing grave markers at Dulce, and whining sports fans in Albuquerque. But before these sagas got completely out of hand, the community of Roswell, in a grand gesture of conciliation, topped all space fantasies by exploiting its "Roswell Story," a simple, ageless fable about a crashed spacecraft brimming with smooshed aliens, brass bands, confetti, Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders, and a top secret military cover up aimed at erasing an entire year in which absolutely nothing important took place. The Roswell Story steam-rollered all efforts to stop the community from capturing UFO-dom's towering award, the coveted "Orrery" trophy, resulting in even more fables dedicated to the proposition that Roswell promoters will say anything as long as they can lure tourists overnight on their way to the Carlsbad nuclear waste depository where the sun never sets. Which brings us today to Portales and the nagging question=97How come this community has never experienced a bona fide, happy-go- lucky alien invasion? I lean toward an explanation that says local Post Office patrons are forced to play matador every day with 18-wheelers rumbling up First Street, and so they have little emotion left for green men from outer space. In fact, Hollywood's gory Sci-fi movies, when compared to First Street, are classed locally as slapstick comedies. Or maybe the reason Portales folks fail to get excited about space aliens is because nerve endings in this community have been eroded by odors of sour mash, cow deposits, diesel fumes, and cheese plant waste water. However, stories of UFO sightings in Roosevelt County do exist, even though they're only heard in tipsy whispers over campfires during hunting season, because no one takes them seriously without a couple drinks. Take the story of Yule Noffstocker who went snipe hunting one night and spotted a throbbing green light. "What's that, Daddy?" Yule asked his father, Noel Noffstocker. "Shut up, Yule. You'll scare off the snipes." Yule shook his head. "Ain't no such a thing as snipes. Mama just wanted us out of the house so she could watch wrestling in peace." "Oh yeah?" Noel said. "Then what are those little slimy things running around with no clothes on? Ain't they snipes or what?" To cut the story down to size, they captured one of the creatures in a snipe sack and lugged it home, to which Mrs. Noffstocker said, "Ain't enough you bring home a space critter, you expect me to dress it too?" So if Portales ever hopes to promote anything close to the
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 30 Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? - Yturria From: Santiago Yturria Garza <syturria.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:36:53 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:19:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? - Yturria >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 07:29:03 -0800 >Subject: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? >Reportedly from Bulgaria: >http://www.lookatentertainment.com/v/v-1783.htm >Regards, >Royce J. Myers III >UFOWATCHDOG.COM This video has been causing interest and controversy. If it's a fake I think it's a good one. According to my information it was released in Italy in August 2005 although it was allegedly filmed in Blagoevgrad, Bulgaria in May 2005. This is the original information. I made an English translation from the italian report. Santiago --- Monday August 8, 2005 UFO Filmed In Bulgaria? Tuesday, 08 june 2003 An email was received at Ufologia.Net from Marco Di Genova, containing the following text: Dati: Hi, I wanted simply to ask as I can send you a video of a UFO that has been sent to me from a friend who lives in Bulgaria...!!! The video is decidedly impressive and I do not know what to think, give me one explanation!!! Thanks. We have naturally answered to send the video to the address info.nul The 21 July, we have received the following answer: Good Morning, I have filmed what it seems a presumed UFO! It mat be presumed and was sent to me by e-mail from a friend knowing that it lives in Bulgaria. I do not know any details on the incident but video itself seems to me very explicit! Could you give me one explanation? I have tried to send it to you through email, but there was not successful. I have put temporarily the file of the video on one public site from which it is possible to download it (I had to compress it for space issue). - Attention: the video on several versions of Medium Windows Player is functional.Generally has not given problems with the Player version: 9.00.00.3008 - The last details that Mark has kindly supplied us are the following: Good Evening. The video issued to me has been sent towards the end of June. According to my memory the sighting may have taken place around the half of May; The witness who took the video is a girl that my friend knows from months in Bulgaria where she studies and works. Here of continuation which has told to me: That morning she was ready to go to her job as usually when she noticed an object suspended in the air beyond the building of her neigborhhod. At first she thought it was an airship; however she decided to take her videocamera to be sure what the object was. She has asured several times that no noise of airplane was heard. As a note she said that local television mentioned some UFO sightings over the city but she does'nt know if this sighting could be related. When Marco sent the video to me via e-mail, he said that he had already shown the video to some persons of a ufologic center (or something similar); he was interested however to know my opinion as well. I have explained that I'm not a professional ufologist but I also said that the document is a lot convincing! I have intentions to take some time to look for an opinion of some expert for the UFO phenomenon in order to understand what could this object in the video be. It could be be a matter of a particular model of airship? In order to answer to the other questions: I asked Marco if I could have the video in a non compressed format but he said he tried to do that but did'nt work making it available in the net. It was too much heavy and was not accepted by the website where she originally posted the one I originally downloaded. His email server did not allow either to send too much large files. We have supplied Marco an address with the "necessary capacity" to the shipment of "heavy" files. Marco has timely supplied the video less compressed under: SCARICA IL VIDEO 7,9MB Marco has finally added: As far as the video cassette, I would not know on which format it is the original video. I have tried
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 30 UFO Over Catamarca Argentina? From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:38:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:22:02 -0500 Subject: UFO Over Catamarca Argentina? Source: DERF News Agency Date: November 28, 2005 A UFO OVER CATAMARCA? (DERF-EI) - A cell phone camera captured an object in the skies over Cuesta del Totoral, province of Catamarca. Fidel Ruben Martinez was traveling in his car when he noticed a glow. He looked skyward and took out his cell phone camera to record an unusal object. "When I expanded the object with the zoom I managed to see the outline of what we all know as a flying saucer," he told the El Ancasti newspaper from Catamarca. The images were sent to the Tucuman Observatory. Experts issued a statement reporting that "what can be seen in the image corresponds to what the camera picked up, at the level of luminous information." Specialists explained that "we must practically dismiss the possibility than an opaque solid body interposed itself between the Sun and the camera lens, as the luminous pattern seen in the photo is 100% compatible with reflective phenomena of light rays on the outer curvature of the camera lens." "The dark spot, the light solar halo and the reflection line agree exactly with the center of the image. This concentricity is a chracteristic trait of optical effects," they added.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 30 More On The Vista Alegre UFO Argentina From: Scott Corrales <lornis1.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:57:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:24:58 -0500 Subject: More On The Vista Alegre UFO Argentina INEXPLICATA The Journal of Hispanic Ufology November 29, 2005 Source: Diario Rio Negro On-Line Date: November 29, 2005 Vista Alegre's Night Was Lit by a UFO Claim having seen "a bunch of lights coming out of a circle". This fact resulted in the presence of the Chief of Police and the Air Force NEUQUEN (AN).- Luciano Manrique always thought that people were "talking guff" and the UFOs were bunk. As of yesterday morning, the boy and the majority of the residents of Costa de Reyes no longer think that way. "It was a bunch of lights of all colors, coming out of a circle that had at least 50 meters wide. All together they were the size of three large trees. It was over the river for a while and later ran about a kilometer over to the small farms. There were three of us and we followed it. Then it suddenly shot out something like many lights together and it looked like it was going to explode...we ran away quickly, followed it for too long." Luciano, 18, says he was scared despite the fact of being with his uncles, Carlos and Hilario. Everything began after 12 midnight, with lights that expanded to the very coast itself. "I went to bed early. My uncle Carlitos (34) called me by cell phone and I went out. I always thought that UFOs were guff," said the boy from Costa de Reyes, a populated corner of the locality of Vista Alegre. There, between twelve thirty and two in the morning, an enormous light like a flying saucer appeared over one of the islands of the Neuquen River amid the commotion in the neighborhood. Curiosity and intrigue even reached the Police, which appeared en masse to witness the spectacle and, of course, to determine what was going on. "I only asked the police, [they said] that what was seen were blue and yellow lines that came out of that thing," said Antonia Quialpi, a local woman who abandoned the comfort of her bed to see the "Flying Saucer". "I woke up on account of the squad cars. Eight patrol cars arrived in front of the race part. I looked at the commotion through the window, since when these things happen, the police can seize you as an eyewitness, and I'm not up to those transactions," said another neighbor who lives on the access road to the Costa de Reyes jockey club. The object's presence caused the appearence of Walter Cofre, Neuquen's chief of police, and of police personnel that reported in from the provincial capital. The Air Force Command in Neuquen was summoned from the police prefecture itself. "We went after two in the morning and the personnel remained until dawn. We saw nothing and stayed until dawn. People claim having seen those lights but we could not ratify it," maintained Santiago Romero, the director of the Neuquen Airport. Costa de Reyes is located some two kilometers from the limits of Vista Alegre and its name has nothing to do with royalty. There is a resident surnamed Reyes who occupied a good segment on the coast in a place where barricades are being built to keep the Neuquen River from causing flood damage. "Nothing like this had ever happened before," said Antonia Quilapi, the historic resident of the riverside wilderness. Yesterday, the talk of the town was the spectacle that everyone claimed to have seen in the sky. What was it? Many lights were coming and going to and from a round large object. "One of our cameras arived only five minutes late,according to what we were told. I don't know if there was something, but everyone was up in arms," said Lucio Piancola, a Channel 7 producer. Residents say that the object vanished rigth above the house of former town intendant Ernesto Meschini after having been suspended over the river. From the get-go, the possibility that it could have been a Police chopper was dismissed. Also dismissed is that any photos may have been taken from there. If the event replays itself, residents are geared up for a safari and claim that they will photograph the UFO in order to keep it from being "unidentified".
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 30 NASA Rover Reveals Possible Secret Martian Life From: NASA News <hqnews.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:42:55 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:27:11 -0500 Subject: NASA Rover Reveals Possible Secret Martian Life November 29, 2005 George Deutsch/Erica Hupp Headquarters, Washington (202) 358-1324/1237 Guy Webster Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. (Phone: 818/354-6278) RELEASE: 05-415 NASA Rover Helps Reveal Possible Secrets Of Martian Life Life may have had a tough time getting started in the ancient environment that left its mark in the Martian rock layers examined by NASA's Opportunity rover. The most thorough analysis yet of the rover's discoveries reveals the challenges life may have faced in the harsh Martian environment. "This is the most significant set of papers our team has published," said Dr. Steve Squyres of Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y. He is principal investigator for the science instruments on Opportunity and its twin rover, Spirit. The lengthy reports reflect more thorough analysis of Opportunity's findings than earlier papers. Scientists have been able to deduce conditions in the Meridiani Planum region of Mars were sometimes wet, strongly acidic and oxidizing. Those conditions probably posed stiff challenges to the origin of Martian life. Based on Opportunity's data, nine papers by 60 researchers in volume 240, issue 1 of the journal Earth and Planetary Science Letters discuss what this part of the Martian Meridiani Planum region was like eons ago. The papers present comparisons to some harsh habitats on Earth and examine the ramifications for possible life on Mars. Dr. Andrew Knoll of Harvard University, Cambridge, Mass., a paper co-author, said, "Life that had evolved in other places or earlier times on Mars, if any did, might adapt to Meridiani conditions, but the kind of chemical reactions we think were important to giving rise to life on Earth simply could not have happened at Meridiani." Scientists analyzed data about stacked sedimentary rock layers 23 feet thick, exposed inside "Endurance Crater." They identified three divisions within the stack. The lowest, oldest portion had the signature of dry sand dunes; the middle portion, windblown sheets of sand with all the particles produced in part by previous evaporation of liquid water. The upper portion corresponded to layers Opportunity found earlier inside a smaller crater near its landing site. Materials in all three divisions were wet both before and after the layers were deposited by either wind or water. Researchers described chemical evidence that the sand grains deposited in the layers had been altered by water before the layers formed. Scientists analyzed how acidic water moving through the layers after they were in place caused changes such as the formation of hematite-rich spherules within the rocks. Experimental and theoretical testing reinforces the interpretation of changes caused by acidic water interacting with the rock layers. "We made simulated Mars rocks in our laboratory then infused acidic fluids through them," said researcher Nicholas Tosca from the State University of New York. "Our theoretical model shows the minerals predicted to form when those fluids evaporate bear a remarkable similarity to the minerals identified in the Meridiani outcrop." The stack of layers in Endurance Crater resulted from a changeable environment perhaps 3.5 to 4 billion years ago. The area may have looked like salt flats occasionally holding water, surrounded by dunes. The White Sands region in New Mexico bears a similar physical resemblance. "For the chemistry and mineralogy of the environment, an acidic river basin named Rio Tinto, in Spain, provides useful similarities," said Dr. David Fernandez-Remolar of Spain's Centro de Astrobiologia. Many types of microbes live in the Rio Tinto environment, one of the reasons for concluding that ancient Meridiani could have been habitable. However, the organisms at Rio Tinto are descended from populations that live in less acidic and stressful habitats. If Meridiani had any life, it might have had to originate in a different habitat. "You need to be very careful when you are talking about the prospect for life on Mars," Knoll said. "We've looked at only a very small parcel of Martian real estate. The geological record Opportunity has examined comes from a relatively short period out of Mars' long history." NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif., manages the Mars Exploration Rover project. Images and information about the rovers
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 30 Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? - Myers From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:11:26 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:29:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? - Myers >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:46:57 -0600 >Subject: Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? >>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 07:29:03 -0800 >>Subject: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? >>Reportedly from Bulgaria: >>http://www.lookatentertainment.com/v/v-1783.htm >Hmmm, Nice video but it almost looks like the same production >quality of the phony WTC video. After watching the video the thing I noticed is that the camera pans back and we get a full shot of the object and background just in time to see it zip off to the right of frame. Also, the camera does a lazy follow when the object zips off.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 30 Back To Roswell [was:'Alien' Faces Are None Other From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:26:28 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:33:55 -0500 Subject: Back To Roswell [was:'Alien' Faces Are None Other >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:16:53 +0000 (GMT) >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:40:41 -0800 >>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>>From: Greg Boone <Evolbaby.nul> >>>To: ufoupdates.nul >>>Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 06:26:15 EST >>>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother ><snip> >>>I'd say this year in ufology was the year of the mind game. >>>We win this one and the cloak of mystery will unravel faster >>>than a cheap yarn sweater. >>The Roswell "Bodysnatchers in the Desert" yarn this year may >>have been another of these psyops operations, as a number of >>us suspect. >You may be right, and Nick has consistently said that he can't >rule out a disinfo element, but to put his own point back to >you, why? Why stir up attention and debate on a case that from a >research perspective had virtually died, that wasn't being >actively discussed, and which irritates the crap out of most >serious Ufologists? Stuart, First of all, the case is far from dead and I certainly dispute that it "irritates the crap out of most serious Ufologists." New information continues to be uncovered. Gen. Ramey's memo, despite some rather clumsy attempts to discredit it, certainly points to something other than a Mogul balloon crash. The strong consensus reading still remains the memo speaking of "the victims of the wreck" and dealing with an object referred to as "the 'disc'". A hoax regarding Charles Moore's Mogul Flight #4 has been exposed by Brad Sparks and myself. Moore, really the _only_ witness to Flight #4, has also been caught flagrantly lying about other matters, altering data, changing stories, making unprovable assumptions, and generally demonstrating that he is an unreliable and biased witness. Another cornerstone of the Air Force's Mogul story has also been discredited, the Duffy/Trakowski story. This was supposedly Roswell debris being flown to Wright Field and instantly identified as being from Mogul by Col. Duffy, the first Mogul Project Officer. Turns out Duffy never made an such identification in two letters concerning this he wrote shortly before his death. More damning, a document turned up indicating that Duffy wasn't even at Wright Field at the time but near Mogul headquarters in N.J. Reporters were being referred to him on the day the Roswell incident story broke regarding the supposed connection between the flying saucers and balloon radar targets (Duffy helped develop the latter). Some very notable people such as Gen. Exon and, more recently, Edgar Mitchell have said that Roswell was an extraterrestrial event. Many witnesses testified to the existence of highly anomalous debris, far beyond anything available in 1947. Instead it resembles new materials now emerging from nanotechnology labs. That such materials could be made wasn't even known 10 years ago. The public and press at large always thought the Air Force's "wooden crash dummies from the future" report was preposterous. One could similarly ask what the point of that was. Even though mainstream media presentations keep regurgitating the Mogul party line, such as last February's ABC UFO special, the Mogul balloon cover story has been steadily deflating. Probably most of the U.S. public doesn't buy it. Thus time to possibly introduce a new red herring. Even Redfern's anonymous "Colonel" refers to the unfolding inadequacies of the Mogul theory: "...when you have the alien believers saying that the Mogul flight dates, or the size of the debris field area, or the wind directions for Mogul flights don't tie up with the date or the location of the crash site [where] Brazel found the material--and therefore this means the material wasn't Mogul and must therfore have been extraterrestrial... Arguing about whether or not wind and weather records or the size of a Mogul balloon indicate or don't indicate that [a Mogul balloon] might have been taken in the direction of the ranch is irelevant when it wasn't a Mogul balloon..." (pp. 133-134) It strikes me that somebody has been paying attention to the inconsistencies being dug up about Mogul from researchers who haven't gone to sleep. "The Colonel's" reference to the debates about weather data, wind direction and crash location is directly about Sparks and myself proving Moore a hoaxer with his Flight #4 trajectory calculation. Flight #4, if it ever existed, would have crashed somewhere else far removed from the Brazel debris field. Thus time to move on to a backup theory to try to cover as many bases as possible. It doesn't matter if much of it is so full of holes that you could fly an Eben invasion fleet through it. It just has to sound superficially plausible. It picks up a few adherents who haven't thought it through adequately and then the infighting and time wasting begins anew. >What's the point? The usual reasons for any disinformation. To waste people's time. To point them in the wrong direction. To confuse them. To discredit them as evidence of hoaxing piles up..To get them continually squabbling with one another. To paint the field as being made up of conspiracy loonies and gullible believers. To inform them of some truth but with plausible deniability built in. Take your pick. It can be any combination of the above. To this one might add that Redfern's psyops witnesses are very obviously trying to make the case that there never have been UFO crashes and there is nothing whatsoever to UFOs. UFOs are just cover stories for secret government projects. The "what's the point?" argument I didn't find particularly convincing as a defense when Redfern first used it, and I still don't find it convincing. A review of the history of Ufology for the last 50 years shows that various UFO researchers have regularly been the targets of disinformation. It was one of the Robertson Panel's recommendations from 1953 for controlling public opinion on the UFO problem. Why should it necessarily be any different for Redfern? >Most people who have >intelligently thought Roswell through had long ago come to the >conclusion that they were never going to find out the truth and >had put it to bed in their minds. So some people are no longer interested because they don't think we'll ever get at the truth. In contrast, some people (who have also intelligently thought Roswell through) are still interested, think the truth may still be had and are trying to chip away at it. Again, I fail to see your point. Those who went to sleep will probably stay asleep and those still interested will continue to investigate. >The dangers of bringing it up again on the other hand are >obvious. Because of renewed interest, someone, somewhere, might >just stumble on something. Those whose interest is rearroused aren't likely to "stumble on something" if they are pointed in the wrong direction. Those who were still investigating and thought the whole story bogus from the beginning, such as me, are no more likely to stumble over something new looking in the directions we were previously. Therefore, I don't buy this extra "danger" argument. >Nick has actually just made an interesting discovery. He has >come across this: >http://www.archives.gov/iwg/meetings/minutes/minutes-062105.html >It is a record of an inter agency discussion earlier this year >in which the subject of releasing documentation relating to the >activities of Unit 731 was discussed. The chilling point to this >is that this meeting took place on the exact same day of >publication of "Bodysnatchers". I don't understand what is so "chilling" about this. (Maybe it's that damp English weather.) It sounds like a simple coincidence to me. Are you honestly asserting that Redfern's publisher and the interagency committee somehow coordinated the book's release date? What possible end would that serve? Further, when you check the above link, all you find is the following "chilling" "revelations" concerning Unit 731: ----- Army Records Ms. Bromwell stated that a CD containing images of records related to Unit 731 that were deposited in the Library of Congress has been transferred to the IWG [Interagency Working Group]. She stated that no additional records from Ft. Detrick and the Dugway Proving Grounds have been located by the Army thus far. The issue of additional Army records related to biological experimentation noted in the book Factories of Death by historian Sheldon Harris remains open. Prof. Weinberg noted that the East Asia IWG volume will be a good forum for dealing with Dr. Harris' assertion that these documents were still held by the U.S. Army in the 1980s and 1990s. ----- I fail to see how this vague reference to documents about Unit 731 in any way corroborates the thesis of "B. S. in the Desert." >You have a number of choices with this information. You can take >a pragmatic attitude and just accept that coincidences happen. Yep, that's my choice. >You can seize on it, as you might, and say it further confirms >that "Bodysnatchers" is part of some disinfo campaign, I think it's part of a disinfo campaign, but I don't see how the ongoing release of documents on Unit 731 somehow confirms this either. >but I >would be interested in your line of thought and reasoning on >this if that is the way you go. Because if this is some smooth >operation, then this latest twist is a bit cack handed and >rather obvious. Or, it's classic disinfo in the sense that the >truth or the partial truth is released but mixed with a >contentious point or two, in this case the coincidence of the >dates, all designed to get us squabbling, as we are now. To me, attaching any signficance to this date seems to be grasping at straws. >Or, we can all stop being paranoid (to a degree at least - we >don't want to give it up for good because it's rather enjoyable) >and maybe accept that the U.S. government has finally decided in >it's own way and without any fanfare to let us know what really >happened, warts 'n all. After all, assuming the documents to be >released are genuine, they are likely to further confirm, >circumstantially at least, the authenticity of Nick's theories. Here's another example of conclusion jumping. Since we have no idea what these Unit 731 documents are from the brief description given, how can anyone possibly conclude that they will "likely" further confirm, even circumstantially, Redfern's theories? Again I see this strange logic at work that if documents on Unit 731 exist that this somehow points to Redfern being correct. How can you not see there is a huge logical disconnect between one and the other? >>Here's another possible one making the rounds right now: >>"Project Serpo The Zeta Reticuli Exchange Program" >>http://www.serpo.org/information.html >To me, my dear friend Rick Doty might just as well have put his >signature at the end of this piece. It's classic him and Robert >Collins. The real interesting point is why it's resurfaced now? >I have commented on this at my blog: >http://rickdotyismygod.blogspot.com/ I don't believe the Project Serpo story (too many inconsistencies and logical nonstarters, for one thing), but it is an imaginative and better-than-average UFO yarn. I don't know who's behind it. Maybe it's Doty; maybe it's the "The Colonel" and his cohorts trying to jerk us around yet another way; maybe it's a group of private hoaxers. (At any moment, I expect a group of CSICOPers to jump out, shout "April Fool!", then gloat about their putting one over on the gullible UFO believers.) If it's Doty or those affiliated with him, you could equally well ask the same question you started with: "What's the point?" Part of this story is also a spinoff of the Roswell crash, including the surviving Eben with whom we supposedly established communications. If Roswell is truly dead, as you claim, why stir it up again with yet another story? Isn't there the same "danger" that renewed interest might cause someone to "stumble" over some important new piece of information? I think if there is any "point" to this from a counterintelligence perspective, it is mainly to get everybody confused, running around in circles, and wasting their time in infighting. Maybe there is even some element of truth in there that also gets planted in the back of our minds. That could be part of another plan for gradual release of information to the public domain. In the meantime, there is always sufficient garbage and plausible deniability built in that we don't know where the lies end and the truth might begin. Disinformation can take many forms and serve multiple purposes.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 30 Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? - Shpakovsky From: Sergey Shpakovsky <sergejsh.nul> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:07:11 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:35:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? - Shpakovsky >From: Nick Balaskas <Nikolaos.nul> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:44:11 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >Subject: Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? >While we are at it, maybe someone can also comment on the photos >of this other alien autopsy, allegedly by these named individuals >in Yugoslavia back in 1966. >http://www.ufocasebook.com/yugoslaviaautopsy.html Hi Nick, First logical question, from my point of view: which doctor or surgeon will risk so much to making such operation on "somebody from another planet?" He have only simple mask on his face. He didn't afraid any viruses or bacteria etc? I don't think so. I
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 30 Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman.nul> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:27:10 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:52:10 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother - >From: Stuart Miller <stuart.miller4.nul> >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:16:53 +0000 (GMT) >Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>From: David Rudiak <drudiak.nul> >>To: <ufoupdates.nul> >>Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:40:41 -0800 >>Subject: Re: 'Alien' Faces Are None Other Than Mother >>The Roswell "Bodysnatchers in the Desert" yarn this year may >>have been another of these psyops operations, as a number of >>us suspect. >You may be right, and Nick has consistently said that he can't >rule out a disinfo element, but to put his own point back to >you, why? Why stir up attention and debate on a case that from a >research perspective had virtually died, that wasn't being >actively discussed, and which irritates the crap out of most >serious Ufologists? What's the point? Most people who have >intelligently thought Roswell through had long ago come to the >conclusion that they were never going to find out the truth and >had put it to bed in their minds. >The dangers of bringing it up again on the other hand are >obvious. Because of renewed interest, someone, somewhere, might >just stumble on something. Stuart, David, List, It's important to remember that Nick's thesis also includes an attempted refutation of the Alien Autopsy/Debris footage. Nick's informants claim that the AA is real footage but of a deformed and retarded six fingered mutant who was used for a White Sands high altitude radiation test that went awry, during May, 1947. And Stuart, you imply in your latest interview with Nick that his revelations have somehow ruined my life. http://tinyurl.com/969fe I doubt that Nick's collection of motley facts is believed or endorsed by anyone. Is there someone on the list who will defend Nick? There is not a word that Nick has said or written that threatens the reality of the Alien Autopsy footage - or Roswell - or the Cameraman's crash site. There is still not one shred of evidence that the AA is hoaxed or fraudulent nor is there any evidence that the Cameraman's testimony is a fiction. I hope some of you
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 30 Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? - Burns From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 02:54:12 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:55:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? - Burns >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 07:29:03 -0800 >Subject: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? Dear Royce, EBK, Listers, A European researcher handed me the footage while I was speaking in Paris in the middle of October. I have been showing it to various people and opinions are, as usual, divided. I sent the 9.5 meg file that I have to a friend but he was unable to make any definitive statement due to my 9 meg file not being good enough quality. It is slightly better quality than the one on the web. I have been trying to find the person who filmed or made the footage to try and acquire a first gen copy. Looks great though. Who has the best video software on the List I can make the larger file available to a number of people if
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 30 Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? - Burns From: Max Burns <max.burns.nul> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 03:08:59 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:57:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? - Burns >From: Don Ledger <dledger.nul> >To: ufoupdates.nul >Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:53:04 -0400 >Subject: Re: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? >>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog.nul> >>To: ufoupdates.nul >>Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 07:29:03 -0800 >>Subject: Has Anyone Else Seen This Video? >>Reportedly from Bulgaria: >>http://www.lookatentertainment.com/v/v-1783.htm >Certainly interesting, Royce. It seems to be spinning as per the >UFOs of the early years. Even though the camera is unsteady >during close-ups,the object itself appears to be bouncing a bit >on its own during it's track across the sky. Has all of the >elements. Oval shaped, spinning, grey/silver and does a hasty >departure. It needs vetting by someone with good graphic skills. Dear Don, Royce, EBK I do not know how many downloads it will allow so I suppose its first come first served. You've got a file called "ufo video - bulgaria - incredible!.mpg" (9802 KB) from max.burns.nul waiting for download. You can click on the following link to retrieve your file. The link will expire in 7 days and will be available for a limited number of downloads. Regular link (for all web browsers): http://s58.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1O3G1AJQE6MBL17U9XL6KM76Q4 ----- File too big for email? Try YouSendIt at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 30 Re: Our State Claims Most UFO Sightings - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhatch.nul> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 03:42:54 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:58:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Our State Claims Most UFO Sightings - Hatch >Source: Portales News-Tribune - Poartales, New Mexico, USA >http://tinyurl.com/bn3xg >Tuesday Novembe 29, 2005 >Our State Claims Most UFO Sightings >Bob Huber Local Columnist >If you're a distinguished UFO-ologist emeritus like I am, you >know that New Mexico holds the record for the most ballyhooed >assaults from outer space. In fact, the coveted Black Hole Cup >has been won by so many communities in this state that Rush >Limbaugh has labeled them prime examples of liberal >conspiracies. >What's more, some senior citizens in Clovis continue to this >day to boast about alleged sightings of "Clovis Lights," a >spatial incident dating back 50 years when patterns of bright >red chilies dotted the night sky. Hello all: UFO-ologist emeritus Bob Huber might want to look at the statistics on this page: http://www.larryhatch.net/STATECTS.html New Mexico comes in _9th_ out of 50 states for raw sightings counts in the *U* Database for all time, behind CA, TX, OH, FL, PA, NY, WA and MA. New Mexico doesn't show at all in a list of top 20 states for sightings over unit area ( S / square-miles ). NM DOES come in first for sightings over population however. I'll snip the rest of the article to save electronic ink.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > Nov > Nov 30 Re: Daily Express Rendlesham Article - Chichikov From: Pavel Chichikov <fishhook.nul> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 07:38:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 07:55:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Daily Express Rendlesham Article - Chichikov >From: Terry Groff <terrygroff.nul> >To: <ufoupdates.nul> >Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 09:46:52 -0600 >Subject: Re: Daily Express Rendlesham Article >I've listened to this tape and it is kind of chilling. You can >definitely hear the tension in the men's voices. It may be my old ears - I'm closer to 70 than 60 - but I could