From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 01:00:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA01393; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 01:00:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 01:00:22 -0800 Message-ID: <386DC4CD.DC5584F4@csrlink.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 04:11:42 -0500 From: "Michael S. Johnston" Reply-To: H2OPower@listbot.com Organization: http://H2OPower.listbot.com/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: Re: Electrolysis Observation References: <19991230164024187.AAA246@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6BDD751DC06EA8432D574657" Resent-Message-ID: <"s5Wba1.0.gL.b8SRu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13456 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6BDD751DC06EA8432D574657 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, In response to below, O2 being a paramagnetic substance would turn itself to be oriented +/- in the direction of the flow of the magnetic flux which it is exposed to. In the case of a rotating magnet in the cell I can't see the advantage as opposed to exposing the whole cell to a constant field. Actually a constant field from a stationary permanent magnet, oriented in the same direction as the current flow through the cell, might serve to weaken the H2 bond far better than a rotating magnet which would be flipping the O2 molecules back and forth constantly and also opposing the flow of the electric current on each revolution. This oppostion would perhaps set up a weak "back EMF" and only serve to make the whole system work harder. MJ Michael T Huffman wrote: > Robin writes: > >Funny, I don't remember saying that :). But it is interesting. > >For those of you looking for a safe, cheap salt to use in electrolysis, try > >washing soda (Na2CO3). It's usually available at the supermarket, and > >doesn't produce any chlorine. > > > >Regards, > > > >Robin van Spaandonk > > What's funny is that, while you may not have written it, I've been thinking > a lot about it with regard to the Mizuno cell replication attempt currently > under discussion in the Vortex Group. The magnetic stirring device used by > Scott Little may have a greater influence than he realizes, and it hasn't > really been put to the test, as far as I know, to determine adequately what > its effect is on the overall performance of the cell. That is just one > aspect of Scott's protocol that I'm not satisfied with, but I just haven't > had the time to compile a complete list of things that I think may be > interesting to test, or to think up the protocols for testing them. It's a > very interesting and complicated little jar of stuff. > > Also, as for using washing soda as an electrolyte, you should add that, > ideally, this should be used in distilled water. Most municipal tap water > sources can contain as much as 10ppm of Cl2, which in a small e-cell is not > that big of a deal, but in a flow through design of any size, it could pose > a health risk if not properly ventilated. > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke@LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm --------------6BDD751DC06EA8432D574657 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Michael S. Johnston Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Michael S. Johnston n: ;Michael S. Johnston org: H2OPower email;internet: enki@csrlink.net title: God x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------6BDD751DC06EA8432D574657-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 02:53:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA15272; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 02:52:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 02:52:59 -0800 Message-ID: <000601bf53bf$f3ae2b40$51e135ca@xplornote> From: "xplorer" To: "energy21" , Subject: water as gyroscope Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 00:50:02 +0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"y1mBu2.0.Xk3.BoTRu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13457 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I am building a boat, and I want to stabilize it using a monster gyroscope made of water. Web searches turn up nothing similar, aside from a 'free enrgy' idea based on precession. anyone know about this sort of thing ? I am aware of the instability of a single gyro, so I am planning on coupling four counter-balanced gyros (two each in longitudinally horizontal and vertical planes) composed and sent from Paul E. Anderson's computer (with or without my permission) ============================== ICQ 52281118 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 03:24:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA20123; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 03:24:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 03:24:22 -0800 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 03:23:24 -0800 From: "Tim Ventura" To: Subject: Re: Railgun Website Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id DAA20102 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZHOu6.0.Gw4.cFURu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13458 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com tventura@illuminet.com tventura@home.com --Have a great new years!!! Tim PS--I LUV email--send me tons of it!! <<< Rymel 12/31 10:06a >>> Tim, what's your email? the one in the body of the email doesn't seem to work for me. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 08:45:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA27271; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 08:45:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 08:45:34 -0800 (PST) From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 11:32:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Electrolysis Observation Message-ID: <20000101.113636.-502311.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,4,6-8,10,12,14,16,18-21,32-33 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"G374f3.0.0g6.iyYRu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13459 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 04:11:42 -0500 "Michael S. Johnston" writes: >Hi, > In response to below, O2 being a paramagnetic substance would turn itself to >be oriented +/- in the direction of the flow of the magnetic flux which it is >exposed to. In the case of a rotating magnet in the cell I can't see the >advantage as opposed to exposing the whole cell to a constant field. >Actually a constant field from a stationary permanent magnet, oriented in the >same direction as the current flow through the cell, might serve to weaken >the H2 bond far better than a rotating magnet which would be flipping the O2 >molecules back and forth constantly and also opposing the flow of the electric >current on each revolution. This oppostion would perhaps set up a weak "back EMF" >and only serve to make the whole system work harder. > MJ O2 is only very weakly paramagnetic, I doubt this property would be of any significance (but I could be wrong, of course). However, H20 is polar, and this property is exploited by microwave ovens. The way they work is by bombarding H2O molecules with electromagnetic radiation; the molecules align themselves with the polarity of the wave. But the polarity is constantly changing, so the result is that the H2O molecules heat up. Perhaps a strong enough magnet would align the water molecules in such a way that if you set up the electrodes properly then the electrolysis would be more efficient. It is beyond my ken to calculate the required strength of the magnet, but maybe someone else on the list can. -Tom Grimes ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 10:25:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA08917; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 10:25:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 10:25:47 -0800 Message-ID: <15424067.946751075289.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 10:24:35 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey D Norris Reply-To: To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrolysis Observation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.178.42 Resent-Message-ID: <"MZOxs3.0.EB2.gQaRu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13460 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sat, 1 Jan 2000 11:32:19 -0500, freenrg-l@eskimo.com wrote: > On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 04:11:42 -0500 "Michael S. Johnston" > writes: > >Hi, > > In response to below, O2 being a paramagnetic substance would turn > itself to > >be oriented +/- in the direction of the flow of the magnetic flux which > it is > >exposed to. In the case of a rotating magnet in the cell I can't see the > >advantage as opposed to exposing the whole cell to a constant field. > >Actually a constant field from a stationary permanent magnet, oriented > in the > >same direction as the current flow through the cell, might serve to > weaken > >the H2 bond far better than a rotating magnet which would be flipping > the O2 > >molecules back and forth constantly and also opposing the flow of the > electric > >current on each revolution. This oppostion would perhaps set up a weak > "back EMF" > >and only serve to make the whole system work harder. > > MJ > > O2 is only very weakly paramagnetic, I doubt this property would be of > any significance (but I could be wrong, of course). However, H20 is > polar, and this property is exploited by microwave ovens. The way they > work is by bombarding H2O molecules with electromagnetic radiation; the > molecules align themselves with the polarity of the wave. But the > polarity is constantly changing, so the result is that the H2O molecules > heat up. Perhaps a strong enough magnet would align the water molecules > in such a way that if you set up the electrodes properly then the > electrolysis would be more efficient. It is beyond my ken to calculate > the required strength of the magnet, but maybe someone else on the list > can. > > -Tom Grimes What needs to be realized is that while a magnetic field normally has a nominal action on the water molecule, the electric field does not. The electric field can stretch the water molecule, and during the stretching process relative charge separation within the molecule does take place.We might call this a displacement current within a water sample placed in a non-linear dielectric medium. This consists of a poly barrier so that the weak dielectric breakdown of water does not occur with higher values of electric field strength. Now the period in time of disclacement current is very small, corresponding in time to the alignment, and it has been shown that water does not decrease its dielectric constant until very high frequencies. By using a high frequency electric field one can increase this value of displacement current vs time. If one then had a counterpart high frequency magnetic field at right angles to the electric field we should then suppose that the magnetic field can exert a lorentz force, or right angle deflection of the existant displacement currents in the water medium. It is my idea to make the geometrical direction of said electrolysis occur on this third right angle so that the electric and magnetic fields from an electrical resonance can aid in the electrolysis. Essentially then using this knid of idea I could take a very large inductor to produce a high frequency magnetic field attained by electrical resonance, and then take a common pitcher of water placed inside this inductor with aluminum foil on the outside, and a copper rod inserted into the center of the cylindrical water capacity. Because it has an insulated poly barrier, each of these connections can go to the electric field in resonance, without shorting that potential out, thus interfacing the fields in resonance at right angles with each other.The actual electrolysisor then must take the form of a radial fin assembly inserted into the ware capacity. These plates of course would be parallel to the direction of the electric field, designed to produce currents at right angles to both fields. The primary problems among many with this scheme is that the fields in resonance do not occur at the same TIMES. They are 90 degrees out of phase in time. I am not talking about a radio wave where E and B ARE phased together in time with the Poynting vector reaction being the propagation in space. That is like putting the cart before the the horse. The horse is the causitive effect of the electrical resonance in which L and C are separate values in time, and usually also in space. The EM radiation is the probable after-effect of the elctrical resonance, and it is concievable that this after-effect that serves as energy losses in the resonance could be circumvented. But the primary problem then becomes making two phases of electrical resonance where one phase has a full electric field concurrent with the other phase having a full magnetic field, and then making that special juxtapositioning of fields between phases.This is why I began making a 90 degree phased generation system some years ago. I beleive the use of a 90 degree phased system as a twin resonant input poses questions where the lorentz reaction between those fields then becomes a DC pulse in one direction, instead of an AC oscillation. This would be similar to the Poynting vector being unidirectional as the direction of EM radiation propagation. If this DC pulse by field interaction of resonant fields could be interfaced with the process of electrolysis, we might achieve a very high efficiency, perhaps even over unity. This is theorized because the lorentz reaction between the energies in each field should be 40% greater than in either field alone. At the moment in time a full electric field would react with a full magnetic field, the power consumption of the resonant phase supplying the electric field will always be zero, that oscillation of energy is in its potential form with zero power input. Essentially the electric fields being interacted with are obtained for free as a function of resonance in this scheme. HDN Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 12:12:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA11126; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 12:12:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 12:12:05 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:06:09 -0500 Subject: Regarding Harvey D Norris' last post (Re:Electrolysis Observation) Message-ID: <20000101.150611.-491827.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 12-13 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SfQsT3.0.jj2.K-bRu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13461 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Although I still will need a bit more learning to completely understand what Mr. Norris is saying, I think I might be grasping at least a crude idea of what he is saying. However, I do have a question. The oscillating electric and magnetic fields are produced at resonance and so do not use a lot of energy (should be no consumption of power, but in reality there will be). Near the end of the post, Mr. Norris states that the water molecules interact with the (essentially) free fields, via the Lorentz force. But if the forces are acting in the water molecules, then aren't they taking energy from the fields, even if by a secondary product of those fields (the Lorentz force)? Shouldn't the circuit driving the resonance be forced to put power back into the fields after energy has been removed by the water molecules? Although I don't know if it could become over unity, it sounds like an interesting path to pursue. -Tom Grimes ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 15:18:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25363; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:18:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:18:44 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Electrolysis Observation Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:28:40 -0500 Message-ID: <20000101232840750.AAA261@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"UFY_I3.0.7C6.IjeRu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13462 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tgrimes writes: > O2 is only very weakly paramagnetic, I doubt this property would be of >any significance (but I could be wrong, of course). However, H20 is >polar, and this property is exploited by microwave ovens. The way they >work is by bombarding H2O molecules with electromagnetic radiation; the >molecules align themselves with the polarity of the wave. But the >polarity is constantly changing, so the result is that the H2O molecules >heat up. Perhaps a strong enough magnet would align the water molecules >in such a way that if you set up the electrodes properly then the >electrolysis would be more efficient. It is beyond my ken to calculate >the required strength of the magnet, but maybe someone else on the list >can. > > -Tom Grimes This is more or less what I was thinking as well, along with the fact that the electrolyte itself, since it is conductive and subject to the formation of eddy currents, may be parasitic inductively, delivering more power to the cell than is recorded in the power input equations. There is also the fact that the hydrodynamics of the cell would allow for thermal stratification that would possibly fool the thermometry of the cell. All of these things can be isolated, properly measured and accounted for with a little thought. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 15:24:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA09928; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:24:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:24:04 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Electrolysis Observation Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:33:55 -0500 Message-ID: <20000101233355359.AAA256@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"AD3a_1.0.-Q2.GoeRu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13463 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com MJ writes: >Hi, > In response to below, O2 being a paramagnetic substance would turn itself to >be oriented +/- in the direction of the flow of the magnetic flux which it is >exposed to. In the case of a rotating magnet in the cell I can't see the >advantage as opposed to exposing the whole cell to a constant field. Actually a >constant field from a stationary permanent magnet, oriented in the same >direction as the current flow through the cell, might serve to weaken the H2 >bond far better than a rotating magnet which would be flipping the O2 molecules >back and forth constantly and also opposing the flow of the electric current on >each revolution. This oppostion would perhaps set up a weak "back EMF" and only >serve to make the whole system work harder. > MJ Hi there, This is an interesting thought as well, however I was thinking along the lines of how a magnetic stirrer might possibly contribute or take away from the overall power transmission by means of inductive coupling in the e-cell. I'm not clear as to whether a) the calibration performed on the cell was done with an electrolyte, or b) the stirrer was turned on during the calibration run. This experiment has been ongoing for quite a while with many significant configuration changes, and I haven't really kept up with the reading to determine if the calibration runs were properly performed with regard to the all of the changes made to the cell design. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 17:51:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA31167; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 17:51:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 17:51:54 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.16.20030101175648.25e7c202@earthlink.net> X-Sender: ddameron@earthlink.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (16) Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 17:56:48 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Dave Dameron Subject: Re: Question about the reason solenoids work In-Reply-To: <19991230.215752.-450057.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"hvsdT.0.qc7.wygRu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13464 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Tom and all, At 09:57 PM 12/30/99 -0500, you wrote: > As I have not the physics training that some on this list have, I have a >question about solenoids. Specifically, why is the plunger attracted to >the middle of the coil? If the plunger is short enough, you can see that >it stays exactly in the middle. I have a theory, but I don't know about >it's validity. Since it is confusing to use "poles" in this case, use energy. The plunger is drawn to the maximum field, which is at the center. > > In order to explain this phenomena, I considered the solenoid to be >composed of two coils in series, one on either side of the (point) >plunger. In a straight coil, the magnetic force should be proportional >to the length of the coil. Only for relatively short coils. For long coils, the magnetic field only approaches a constant proportional to turns/unit length of the solenoid. > Therefore, since each coil is an >electromagnet and draws the plunger toward it, the middle is the place >where the two opposing forces cancel out. This is a good way to look at it, I think. Thus the force on the plunger >equals the difference between the magnetic forces of the coils. Since >the radius is constant and the magnetic strength is proportional to the >length of the coil, the force on the plunger (or projectile, in the case >of coilguns) is equal to the difference in the lengths of the coils. At >the midpoint, this difference is zero. Under examination of the implied >equation, it is easy to see that the average net magnetic force on the >plunger/projectile through half of the coil is half of the field strength >at the end of the coil. So, with a small change in wording, the >calculation I presented still holds (specifically, the average force >produced by the 1.0 m coil needs to be 1.0 N; at the end it will be 2.0 >N). As an interesting prediction, the plunger/projectile should slow >down as it moves towards the center. Are you talking only about the long + very short coils here? > > -Dave From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 21:10:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA22373; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:10:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:10:45 -0800 Message-ID: <25153485.946789723296.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:08:43 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey D Norris Reply-To: To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Regarding Harvey D Norris' last post (Re:Electrolysis Observation) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.176.202 Resent-Message-ID: <"AUXmP2.0.UT5.KtjRu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13465 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:06:09 -0500, freenrg-l@eskimo.com wrote: > Although I still will need a bit more learning to completely understand > what Mr. Norris is saying, I think I might be grasping at least a crude > idea of what he is saying. However, I do have a question. The > oscillating electric and magnetic fields are produced at resonance and so > do not use a lot of energy (should be no consumption of power, but in > reality there will be). The amount of energy needed for the resonance would be miniscule in comparison to that needed for the actual electrolysis. It would be hoped that these special cohered fields could be used to change what is called the thermoneutral voltage of electrolysis. From Michael Peavey's "Energy from Water" under Voltage vs. Temperature; If all the energy to split water came from the electric current and no heat flowed into the reaction, 1.481 volts would be needed. As temperature is increased, this voltage at 77 degrees F would just begin to produce waste heat. Over 1.481 volts increasingly large amounts of heat is generated. This critical limit is referred to as the thermoneutral voltage. The book also states that from 1.23 volts to 1.47 volts the electrolysis reaction absorbs heat, or functions as an endothermic instead of exothermic process if my words are correct. How practical this is actually is what is wondered since at that smaller voltage very little actual electrolysis should take place. When we say that when we have a water sample in a high frequency electric field we can picture a model of elongated dipole molecules rotating in space at a rate determined by the frequency of the electric field. The problem with this idea is that it does not reflect the actual conditions of reality where those molecules have an average kinetic energy expressed as translational movement in three dimensions of space, with the random collisions being expressed as the temperature of the medium. If the same physics laws of translational momentum being converted to rotational momentum hold on the molecular scale, we should expect that the thermoneutral voltage of an electrolysisor can be changed by exterior fields applied to that electrolysisor. This principle can be shown by the rolling of two equal wt cylinders on an inclined plane. A hollow cylinder rolls slower due to all of its mass being on the periphery, thus more conversion of translational momentum to angular. On the molecular scale less translational movement through space due to conversion to angular momentum means less collisons per time period or loss in temperature. To understand the relation of the magnetic field to everything, we should understand that it is there to produce a 90 degree deflection to the direction of the displacement currents, which are also expressed as angular momentum of electric dipoles in space. Those dipoles themselves would have 360 degrees of freedom to rotate parallel to the electric field, those rotations are not cohered all in one direction. If an orthogonal magnetic field is present it may favor a clockwise spin, and not a counterclockwise. It may exert forces at right angles on the incorrect spins to make them all appear oriented in one spin direction. Since the fields are predicated to act simultaneously, the possibility of a gyroscopic precessional effect of causing a spin within a spin on two dimensions and the resultant precession acting collectively on the whole sample again should act to lower the temperature of the medium by taking random translational motion and cohering it to a precessional movement. Near the end of the post, Mr. Norris states that > the water molecules interact with the (essentially) free fields, via the > Lorentz force. But if the forces are acting in the water molecules, then > aren't they taking energy from the fields, Yes that is true in the electric field, I think they call that being lossy. Ordinarily heat is a by product from dipole rotation, but as the above indicates if the dipole rotation is more cohered these losses may not be as significant. even if by a secondary product > of those fields (the Lorentz force)? NO, the extraction of potential at right angles to its vector direction should not delete its potential. The only way this interaction takes place is by the magnetic field as a transfer agent. More specifically if we look at the potential of each of the charges in the electric field, their potential varies when they move in the same direction as the field lines. If those charges move sideways in the electric field from a deflection made from an outside mganetic field, they do not lose the potential available to them from the electric field. by Shouldn't the circuit driving the > resonance be forced to put power back into the fields after energy has > been removed by the water molecules? Again this is a small quantity. The actual power input to the resonant coils is its I^2R heat losses on the coil, I dont think the water losses are significant. Problems with resonating the coil after the water capacity is inserted in the magnetic field are very lossy though. For the large inductor I would be using ,this is only 15 watts/ coil at household voltage for coil heat creation. To contrast the energies involved in transfer to electric and magnetic fields in resonance: these are about three times that of the power input. This may go down to 2/1 in the actual case where the water capacity is placed inside the coil. HDN Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 1 23:05:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA25351; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 23:04:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 23:04:59 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Regarding Harvey D Norris' last post (Re:Electrolysis Observation) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 18:04:52 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <25153485.946789723296.JavaMail.imail@bronty> In-Reply-To: <25153485.946789723296.JavaMail.imail@bronty> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA25267 Resent-Message-ID: <"2nvN33.0.zB6.RYlRu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13466 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:08:43 -0800 (PST), Harvey D Norris wrote: [snip] > Shouldn't the circuit driving the >> resonance be forced to put power back into the fields after energy has >> been removed by the water molecules? >Again this is a small quantity. The actual power input to the resonant coils >is its I^2R heat losses on the coil, I dont think the water losses are >significant. Problems with resonating the coil after the water capacity is >inserted in the magnetic field are very lossy though. For the large >inductor I would be using ,this is only 15 watts/ coil at household voltage >for coil heat creation. To contrast the energies involved in transfer to >electric and magnetic fields in resonance: these are about three times that >of the power input. I find this somewhat confusing. Could you specify which energies you are talking about, where you think the energy comes from, and where you think it is going? >This may go down to 2/1 in the actual case where the >water capacity is placed inside the coil. HDN [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 09:49:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA20536; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 09:48:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 09:48:55 -0800 Message-ID: <000c01bf554a$99ac25c0$67a970d1@acer> From: "sparky" To: , Cc: , Subject: Re: Atmospheric Energy Conversion Problem Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 08:54:48 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"9VUv81.0.m05.7-uRu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13467 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com You might read this, but you probably already know all this. http://pages.prodigy.net/onichelson/LATEGEN.htm there is more to it than this, but this might be a good start. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce A. Perreault To: nuenergy@listbot.com Cc: nuenergy2@listbot.com ; freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Thursday, December 30, 1999 4:00 AM Subject: Atmospheric Energy Conversion Problem >Blockbuster Puzzle for Year 2000: > >The earth generates large electrostatic differences between >its atmosphere and surface. This is due to the fact >that the air has an excess of positive ions, while the >ground contains an excess of electrons. This field of ions >is measured at around 130-volts per meter of distance between >ground and sky. Very little current is measured between an >antenna wire strung up in the air and a grounding-rod. The >problem with tapping into this source of energy is that the >positive-ion density in the surrounding air is too low. This >results in almost zero charge flow from the ground ions towards >the positive atmospheric ions. > >There exists only one invention that has extracted a practical >amount of current from the earth’s electrostatic field. It is >the radiant energy receiver. The radiant energy receiver taps >into the earth’s electron reserve by dumping electrons into the >air. In doing this the device draws in replacement electrons from >the ground. Electric power is pumped by its circuitry. > >My question for the list is how can a device be built that does not >rely on radioactive material. I have this problem more than half >solved. Instead of bickering in the year 2000 let’s come up with >this answer. The answer would certainly transform the world. With >unlimited energy humanity could evolve in spite of the greed of the >filthy rich. It is a certainty that these kind folks will not want >to give up their slaves. There will be global madness for a time but >that is what change is all about. THe human race must evolve soon or >it is doomed to perish. Freedom is worth the price. No person on >earth has the right to live off another persons labor. > > > HAPPY YEAR 2000, > > -Bruce A. Perreault > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 09:50:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA21830; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 09:50:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 09:50:47 -0800 Message-ID: <18375911.946833560060.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 09:19:20 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey D Norris Reply-To: To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Regarding Harvey D Norris' last post (Re:Electrolysis Observation) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.176.185 Resent-Message-ID: <"unxgo1.0.uK5.s_uRu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13468 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sun, 02 Jan 2000 18:04:52 +1100, freenrg-l@eskimo.com wrote: > On Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:08:43 -0800 (PST), Harvey D Norris wrote: > [snip] > > Shouldn't the circuit driving the > >> resonance be forced to put power back into the fields after energy has > >> been removed by the water molecules? > >Again this is a small quantity. The actual power input to the resonant coils > >is its I^2R heat losses on the coil, I dont think the water losses are > >significant. Problems with resonating the coil after the water capacity is > >inserted in the magnetic field are very lossy though. For the large > >inductor I would be using ,this is only 15 watts/ coil at household voltage > >for coil heat creation. To contrast the energies involved in transfer to > >electric and magnetic fields in resonance: these are about three times that > >of the power input. > > I find this somewhat confusing. Could you specify which energies you are > talking about, where you think the energy comes from, and where you think it > is going? I was incorrect on the 15 watt quote, it is closer to 5 watts. That 60 hz resonant coil(s) have no direct electrical connection with an electrolysisor, it could exist solely to present exterior fields to a cylindrical electrolysisor placed inside the cores of the coils. I have reposted the following from almost a year ago to show how the transfer of energy through magnetic and electric fields at resonance can be greater than the transfer of energy to the coil as heat loss, provided sufficiently large values of L are used. 1/2L[I]2=1/2C[V]2 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:49:36 In the above equation the left term represents the energy stored as kinetic form of a magnetic field and the right represents the same energy expressed in potential form as an electric field.What one finds is that it is quite possible to have a situation where the amount of energy in oscillation as expressed by these terms can exceed the amount of energy wasted in [I]2R heat losses. I dont know if I can agree about your conclusions regarding this watt less energy transfer. To give an example the coils I use in my experiments are 1000 ohms and 56 Henries. When I plug them into the 120v@60hz wall the load is viewed as being about 99.9% inductive reactance and thus the resistance only accounts for 0.1% of the arrived impedance figure. This allows 5 mA to conduct through the coil. Now the power company of course sees this primarily as returned energy and wattless but the 5ma still heats the wire of the coil. If everyone of the power companies customers suddenly plugged in transformers,drawing no load on the secondary,they would draw no power but heating losses should still be occurring in the transmission lines and primaries of the open circiut transformers. Now it is my understanding the same argument is used for purely capacitive loads. When I make a capacitive load that will conduct 5 ma from the wall and combine it in series with the inductive load of 5 ma the reactances cancel and 15 times the amperage is noted in the circuit. What makes this possible however is that a resonant rise of voltage 15/1 ratio to input voltage occurs inside the circuit against itself. I call that an unobvious potential in which if a load is placed in parallel to the voltage rise the effect that caused the voltage is itself choked off; hence we might call this a resonant choke method. We cannot use the unobvious potential or voltage that exists in either direction with respect to the midpoint of the series connection to either end, in the same way an obvious voltage is used. As I have pointed out before however it is possible to make TWO differing kinds of unobvious potential that are in turn themselves opposites. At the same time an unobvious negative potential can exist so can an unobvious positive potential; and those unobvious potentials can be made to interact which involves a reaction with twice the potential of either alone. This also is a resonant choke method that gives an entirely unexpected result.That result is the fact that when the two opposite unobvious potentials are connected the whole circuit becomes not 2 series resonant branches oppositely connected in parallel and joined at the midpoints; BUT now acts as if it were 1 parallel resonant circuit with one important distinction; the center path across the midpoint has now acted as a common carrier for both the inductive and capacitive currents, but that carrier is used in opposite directions by both. This is like a double negative but the result of the observation is that twice the recorded amperage exists across the midpoint path than that of either the capacitive or inductive alone. This concept can be visualized by taking an S and superimposing a backwards S over it to make a figure 8. The path across the middle is used by both S's in opposite directions. Each S represents an inductive and capacitive current and since they themselves are 180 out of phase; when the same pathway is used in opposite directions they become in phase and doubled. Whew I must have confused everyone by now but this explanation fits what is actually observed. To reiterate I use the term unobvious potential to mean the MIDPOINT of a series resonant circuit. If two of these circuits are made one can be made backwards or 180 degrees out of phase with the other simply by hooking them up BACKWARDS with respect to the wall connections. I have seen a lot of blank stares and total misunderstanding of this term "180 degrees out of phase" Its so simple that it is rediculous that people read something into it like its some kind of mystical thing that cant be understood. What needs to be understood is that when two of these backwards phases are made when one has an unobvious compression of electrons, or acts like an unobvious negative source, the other opposite phase will create an unobvious vacuum of electrons or unobvious positive source. The reaction of these unobvious potentials by use of an arc gap is a superb method of creating a clean high frequency oscillation between resonances,which I refer to as the binary resonant arc gap. Having lost my train of thought lets return to the equation.When the amperage in this coil example is increased 15 fold to 75mA the energy stored in the magnetic field is exponentially increased due to amperage term I being squared on the left term. For the same energy to exist in the capacitor the V term must correspondingly be increased 15 fold. In a way this simple equation explains the series resonant rise of voltage. Now the heating loss in this example is 5.625 watts from the average current of .075 A and 1000 ohms. Is it remarkable that the energy stored by 1/2L[I]2 is by the left term .1575 joules? That being the case the energy transfer of .1575 joules 120 times per second would then be 18.9 joules per second or 18.9 watts. If it were possible to tap into this energy transfer without diminishing the quantity being transferred than we should suppose that overunity is possible,shouldnt we? HDN > >This may go down to 2/1 in the actual case where the > >water capacity is placed inside the coil. HDN Placing different materials in the core such as ferrite or water diminshes the amount of resonance that can be made. The books indicate that water should not significantly alter the resonance, itself being mildly paramagnetic, but the experimental evidence must overrule what the books say. I will have to dig up some notes to find what this water value was ,as I have done this experiment before at 833 hz from an automotive alternator with the diodes removed. HDN Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 10:19:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA01331; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 10:19:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 10:19:30 -0800 Message-ID: <386F96F6.5266@cyberportal.net> Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 13:20:38 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com Subject: Re: Atmospheric Energy Conversion Problem References: <000c01bf554a$99ac25c0$67a970d1@acer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KnzjD2.0.iK.nQvRu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13469 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sparky, I just read from the link that you have provided. It appears that alot that is written there was lifted from my site. Even so, your input is appreciated. 1. http://www.nuenergy.org/tesla_energy.htm 2. http://www.exoticresearch.com/report/articles/v2n2art/radiant.htm -Bruce A. Perreault sparky wrote: > > You might read this, but you probably already know all this. > http://pages.prodigy.net/onichelson/LATEGEN.htm there is more to it than > this, but this might be a good start. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 10:31:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA06990; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 10:31:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 10:31:52 -0800 Message-ID: <20183438.946836724454.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 10:12:04 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey D Norris Reply-To: To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Water Capacity inside Inductor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.177.77 Resent-Message-ID: <"5Xsf83.0.7j1.NcvRu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13470 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com In coordination with the previous posts indicating the possibility of making a resonance share electric and magnetic fields in space see 833 hz tests; http://www.escribe.com/science/freenrg/m5252.html This experiment failed to produce a series resonance effect, although the inductive and capacitive reactances should have been close enough to show this effect. This could indicate that the whole idea is unfeasible. Further tests this spring at 360 hz will be made. Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 15:19:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA09754; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:18:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:18:57 -0800 Message-ID: <15771730.946855038596.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:17:18 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey D Norris Reply-To: To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Myth of Tesla Patent 512,340 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.176.226 Resent-Message-ID: <"JfJBa3.0.GO2.WpzRu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13471 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I wish to go on record as stating that a myth seems to have developed concerning Teslas patent; COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS. SPECIFICATION forming part of Letters Patent No. 512,340, dated January 9, 1894. Application filed July 7, 1893. Serial No. 479,804. (No model.) Part of this myth is contained in the following statements. Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO MAGNETS," patent #512,340 is a very special coil design because, unlike an ordinary coil made by turning wire on a tube form, this one uses two wires laid next to each other on a form but with the end of the first one connected to the beginning of the second one. In this patent Tesla explains that the double coil will store many times the energy of a conventional coil.[1] Measurements of two coils of the same size and with the same number of turns, one with a single, the other with a bifilar winding, show differences in voltage gain. These bifilar Tesla's coils can be explained solely on the basis of their electrical activity. A bifilar coil is capable of holding more charge than a single wound coil. When operated at resonance, the distributed capacitance of the bifilar coil is able to overcome the counter - electromotive force (e.m.f.) normal to coils, inductive reactance. (from) http://www.nuenergy.org/tesla_energy.htm Also from; http://pages.prodigy.net/onichelson/LATEGEN.ht In the patent Tesla explains that this double coil will store many times the energy of a conventional coil(14). Preliminary measurements of two helices of the same size and with the same number of turns, one with a single, the other with a bifilar winding, show differences in voltage gain(15). In figure 6, the upper curve is from the Tesla design, the lower was produced by the single wound coil. The patent, however, gives no hint of what might have been its more unusual capability. 14. Nikola Tesla, U.S. Patent #512,340, "Coil for Electro-Magnets," reprinted in LPA, pp. P-428-429. He explains that a standard coil of 1000 turns with a potential of 100 volts across it will have a difference of .1 volt between turns. A similar bifilar coil will have a potential of 50 volts between turns. In that the stored energy is a function of the square of the voltages the energy in the bifilar will be 502/.12 = 2500/.01 = 250,000 times greater than the standard coil. 15. Measurements were made by M. King and O. Nichelson at Eyring, Inc., with a HP 3577A network analyzer on 3 inch diameter coils with 43 turns each of number 20 wire. Why is the above info a myth? Because no where does Tesla specify the use of a bifilar coil in his patent. It is the other people past Tesla who have interpreted the patent as saying this. To further complicate matters Teslas actual statement in the patent: Let it be assumed that the terminals of this coil show a potential difference of one hundred volts, and that there are one thousand convolutions; then considering any two contiguous points on adjacent convolutions let it be assumed that there will exist between them a potential difference of one-tenth of a volt. If now, as shown in Figure 2, a conductor B be wound parallel with the conductor A and insulated from it, and the end of A be connected with the starting point of B, the aggregate length of the two conductors being such that the assumed number of convolutions or turns is the same, viz., one thousand, then the potential difference between any two points in A and B will be fifty volts, and as the capacity effect is proportionate to the square of this difference, the energy stored in the coil as a whole will now be two hundred and fifty thousand as great. I have built coil systems of speaker wire wound on unmagnetised strontium ferrite and noted the effect Tesla is talking about. However that effect is only a four fold effect, when a doubling in series of the windings produces ~ 4 fold the original inductance. Note that no model was presented to the patent examinors, and the early year this was patented. I think some spurious claims are being made here by Tesla who may have been making a whirlwind tour of many patent claims. As evidence of this I dont think anyone has increased the inductance of a coil winding alone 250,000 fold by geometric reasons alone. An inspection of the drawings of this coil at http://www.keelynet.com/tesla/00512340.htm clearly shows in figure 2 that the second coil system B enters in the clockwise fashion identical to coil system A. Nowhere in the patent is mention made of the use of bifilar coils. It further appears that Teslas own patent claims are erroneous. What I claim as my invention is: 1.A coil for electric apparatus the adjacent convolutions of which form parts of the circuit between which there exists a potential difference sufficient to secure in the coil a capacity capable of neutralizing its self-induction, as herein before described. 2.A coil composed of contiguous or adjacent insulated conductors electrically connected in series and having a potential difference of such value as to give to the coil as a whole, a capacity sufficient to neutralize its self-induction, as set forth. What has actually been determined is that this method did the opposite of what Tesla said it was supposed to do, the self induction is not neutralized, it is doubled by that method. I have not tested this with pancake coils but wouldnt suspect much of a difference. Tesla was perhaps being illusive about the actual design or was sincerely confused. It is this latter day confusion that has led everyone to suspect that Tesla was implying the use of bifilar coils by his very comments in the patent claims. A bifilar coil does not store more energy as some of these latter day commentators seem to think. The design I employed to attain Teslas desire of an internal capacitance to cancel the inductive reactance was to construct a hubbard like assembly of a central inductance, and a surrounding inductance. If each of these windings are treated as a one ended cylindrical capacity, the capacity of the two windings with respect to each other than can be measured, and the frequency at which the system should resonate can be determined. So it seems here that the idea Tesla has may be good, but his design is misleading. If we try to beleive what Tesla is saying then perhaps the inductance changes to a higher value with greater voltage input, and that our present day inductor meters only show the increase because of the voltage of the sensor input. That sounds so rediculous and ludicrous that I havent even attempted a test at higher voltages of an inductance that is always supposed to be the same value within reason. HDN Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 15:43:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA17003; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:43:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:43:02 -0800 Message-ID: <386FE2C6.2D47@cyberportal.net> Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 18:44:06 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tesla4@excite.com CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Myth of Tesla Patent 512,340 References: <15771730.946855038596.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Eb5UR.0.U94.3A-Ru"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13472 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Harvey, This patent clearly shows a bifilar coil. Tesla pointed out that these coils have a greatly increased capacitance. With this increase added capacitors are not necessary. -BAP Harvey D Norris wrote: > > I wish to go on record as stating that a myth seems to have developed > concerning > Teslas patent; > COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS. > > SPECIFICATION forming part of Letters Patent No. 512,340, dated January 9, > 1894. > > Application filed July 7, 1893. Serial No. 479,804. (No model.) > > Part of this myth is contained in the following statements. > > Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO MAGNETS," patent #512,340 is a very special coil > design because, unlike an > ordinary coil made by turning wire on a tube form, this one uses two wires > laid next to each other on a form but > with the end of the first one connected to the beginning of the second one. > In this patent Tesla explains that the > double coil will store many times the energy of a conventional coil.[1] > Measurements of two coils of the same size > and with the same number of turns, one with a single, the other with a > bifilar winding, show differences in voltage > gain. These bifilar Tesla's coils can be explained solely on the basis of > their electrical activity. A bifilar coil is > capable of holding more charge than a single wound coil. When operated at > resonance, the distributed > capacitance of the bifilar coil is able to overcome the counter - > electromotive force (e.m.f.) normal to coils, > inductive reactance. (from) > http://www.nuenergy.org/tesla_energy.htm > > Also from; http://pages.prodigy.net/onichelson/LATEGEN.ht > > In the patent Tesla explains that this double coil will store many times the > energy of a conventional coil(14). Preliminary measurements of two helices > of the same size and with the same number > of turns, one with a single, the other with a bifilar winding, show > differences in voltage gain(15). In figure 6, the upper curve is from the > Tesla design, the lower was produced by the single wound coil. The patent, > however, gives no hint of what might have been its more unusual capability. > > 14. Nikola Tesla, U.S. Patent #512,340, "Coil for Electro-Magnets," > reprinted in LPA, pp. > P-428-429. He explains that a standard coil of 1000 turns with a potential > of 100 volts across it will > have a difference of .1 volt between turns. A similar bifilar coil will have > a potential of 50 volts > between turns. In that the stored energy is a function of the square of the > voltages the energy in the > bifilar will be 502/.12 = 2500/.01 = 250,000 times greater than the standard > coil. > > 15. Measurements were made by M. King and O. Nichelson at Eyring, Inc., with > a HP 3577A > network analyzer on 3 inch diameter coils with 43 turns each of number 20 > wire. > > Why is the above info a myth? Because no where does Tesla specify > the use of a bifilar coil in his patent. It is the other people past Tesla > who have interpreted the patent as saying this. To further complicate > matters Teslas actual statement in the patent: > > Let it be assumed that the terminals of this coil show a potential > difference of one hundred volts, and that there are one thousand > convolutions; then considering any two contiguous points on adjacent > convolutions let it be assumed that there will exist between them a > potential difference of one-tenth of a volt. If now, as shown in Figure 2, a > conductor B be wound parallel with the conductor A and insulated from it, > and the end of A be connected with the starting point of B, the aggregate > length of the two conductors being such that the assumed number of > convolutions or turns is the same, viz., one thousand, then the potential > difference between any two points in A and B will be fifty volts, and as the > capacity effect is proportionate to the square of this difference, the > energy stored in the coil as a whole will now be two hundred and fifty > thousand as great. > > I have built coil systems of speaker wire wound on unmagnetised > strontium ferrite and noted the effect Tesla is talking about. However > that effect is only a four fold effect, when a doubling in series of the > windings produces ~ 4 fold the original inductance. Note that no model was > presented to the patent examinors, and the early year this was patented. I > think some spurious claims are being made here by Tesla who may have been > making a whirlwind tour of many patent claims. As evidence of this I dont > think anyone has increased the inductance of a coil winding alone 250,000 > fold by geometric reasons alone. > > An inspection of the drawings of this coil at > http://www.keelynet.com/tesla/00512340.htm > clearly shows in figure 2 that the second coil system B enters in the > clockwise fashion identical to coil system A. Nowhere in the patent is > mention made of the use of bifilar coils. > > It further appears that Teslas own patent claims are erroneous. > > What I claim as my invention is: > > 1.A coil for electric apparatus the adjacent convolutions of which form > parts of the circuit between which there exists a potential difference > sufficient to secure in the coil a capacity capable of neutralizing its > self-induction, as herein before described. 2.A coil composed of contiguous > or adjacent insulated conductors electrically connected in series and having > a potential difference of such value as to give to the coil as a whole, a > capacity sufficient to neutralize its self-induction, as set forth. > > What has actually been determined is that this method did the opposite > of what Tesla said it was supposed to do, the self induction is not > neutralized, > it is doubled by that method. I have not tested this with pancake coils but > wouldnt suspect much of a difference. Tesla was perhaps being illusive > about the actual design or was sincerely confused. It is this latter day > confusion > that has led everyone to suspect that Tesla was implying the use of bifilar > coils > by his very comments in the patent claims. A bifilar coil does not store > more > energy as some of these latter day commentators seem to think. The design I > employed to attain Teslas desire of an internal capacitance to cancel the > inductive > reactance was to construct a hubbard like assembly of a central inductance, > and a surrounding inductance. If each of these windings are treated as a one > > ended cylindrical capacity, the capacity of the two windings with respect > to each other than can be measured, and the frequency at which the system > should resonate can be determined. So it seems here that the idea Tesla has > may be good, but his design is misleading. If we try to beleive what Tesla > is saying then perhaps the inductance changes to a higher value with > greater voltage input, and that our present day inductor meters only show > the increase because of the voltage of the sensor input. That sounds so > rediculous and ludicrous that I havent even attempted a test at higher > voltages of an inductance that is always supposed to be the same value > within reason. HDN From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 21:07:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA28702; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 21:07:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 21:07:09 -0800 Message-ID: <001001bf55a9$586aee20$a7a270d1@acer> From: "sparky" To: "Nu Energy Horizons" Cc: , Subject: Re: Atmospheric Energy Conversion Problem Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:13:59 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"ikvXH3.0.L07.yv2Su"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13473 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Look at this . http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/lab/6771/magnt1.html -----Original Message----- From: Bruce A. Perreault To: nuenergy@listbot.com Cc: nuenergy2@listbot.com ; freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Thursday, December 30, 1999 4:01 AM Subject: Atmospheric Energy Conversion Problem >Nu Energy Horizons - http://www.nuenergy@listbot.com > >The earth generates large electrostatic differences between >its atmosphere and surface. This is due to the fact >that the air has an excess of positive ions, while the >ground contains an excess of electrons. This field of ions >is measured at around 130-volts per meter of distance between >ground and sky. Very little current is measured between an >antenna wire strung up in the air and a grounding-rod. The >problem with tapping into this source of energy is that the >positive-ion density in the surrounding air is too low. This >results in almost zero charge flow from the ground ions towards >the positive atmospheric ions. > >There exists only one invention that has extracted a practical >amount of current from the earth’s electrostatic field. It is >the radiant energy receiver. The radiant energy receiver taps >into the earth’s electron reserve by dumping electrons into the >air. In doing this the device draws in replacement electrons from >the ground. Electric power is pumped by its circuitry. > >My question for the list is how can a device be built that does not >rely on radioactive material. I have this problem more than half >solved. Instead of bickering in the year 2000 let’s come up with >this answer. The answer would certainly transform the world. With >unlimited energy humanity could evolve in spite of the greed of the >filthy rich. It is a certainty that these kind folks will not want >to give up their slaves. There will be global madness for a time but >that is what change is all about. THe human race must evolve soon or >it is doomed to perish. Freedom is worth the price. No person on >earth has the right to live off another persons labor. > > > HAPPY YEAR 2000, > > -Bruce A. Perreault > > >______________________________________________________________________ >To unsubscribe, write to nuenergy-unsubscribe@listbot.com >______________________________________________________________________ >Applying to college this year? >Apply online at Embark.com and enter the Embark.com Tuition Sweepstakes! You could win $80,000 for tuition to the college of your dreams! Enter daily to increase your chances of winning: Sweepstakes ends 1/15/00. Click to enter: http://www.listbot.com/links/embark > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 21:11:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA31396; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 21:11:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 21:11:25 -0800 Message-ID: <21868060.946876179627.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 21:09:39 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey D Norris Reply-To: To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Subject: Re: Myth of Tesla Patent 512,340 Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.176.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"rrweq2.0.Pg7.yz2Su"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13474 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sun, 02 Jan 2000 18:44:06 -0500, nuenergy@cyberportal.net wrote: > Harvey, > > This patent clearly shows a bifilar coil. > Tesla pointed out that these coils have > a greatly increased capacitance. With this > increase added capacitors are not necessary. > > > -BAP Over a year ago when I read this patent, I had the same viewpoint that you are taking. This is reinforced by Tesla's claims at the end of the patent. However I have constructed the coils both ways, the way it is DRAWN on the patent with 2 sets of coils in SERIES and both coils producing magnetic fields in agreement, and the sets in magnetic opposition or a bifilar arrangement which you and others may feel what is being brought to issue.The simple fact of the matter is there appears to be nothing analomous about putting the coils in bifilar connection, the total induction of the system merely goes down to a minimal value. The coil system cannot store more energy in this form as is implied. However the analomous effect Tesla claims in the patent CAN be shown experimentally by taking double stranded speaker wire and winding it onto a cylinder. Measure the inductance of one winding alone.Route the end wire back to the beginning of the second winding and measure the inductance of both in series. Instead of it being double as the induction laws tell us, we get almost 4 times the inductance. Additionally the inductance laws tell us that if we have two identical inductances in parallel, the equivalent inductance should be half of the former value. When this is done with the speaker wire twin coil system, the inductances in parallel are not correspondingly reduced on the new simultaneous value. What has occured to me now is something I should have known all along, that although the patent does not show bifilar coils, you are indeed right that bifilar coils could have been used. In that case the wire would not be rerouted back to the starting point on the second coil, but that second coil would consist of OPPOSITE windings returning back to the origin of the first coil system. This is exactly the idea I have employed in reacting 180 phased coils in magnetic unison to increase the Q of both coils in mutual inductance. So I must admit that I did not look at the totality of possibilities involved here, and that it is possible that Tesla later on referred to bifilar coils being used it that manner to produce magnetic fields in agreement, but NOT in opposition, as some would suppose. Additionally the patent only refers to modifications of this idea in the state of the art ect and no where explicitely refers to the use of bifilar coils to my knowledge, which is how I obtained this semi erroneous opinion that the patent is so misleading as to qualify as a myth. The figure of a 250,000 fold increase of inductance by these means certainly qualify this patent as a myth since no model was ever provided for examination to the patent office in 1893, and no multiplication of inductance on that scale has been demonstrated by others. HDN Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 21:44:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA13565; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 21:44:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 21:44:20 -0800 Message-ID: <000801bf55ae$85af6c80$6fa270d1@acer> From: "sparky" To: , Cc: , Subject: Re: LOOK AT THIS!!!!! Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:51:02 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"TymNW2.0.sJ3.qS3Su"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13475 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/lab/6771/magnet1.html -----Original Message----- From: Bruce A. Perreault To: nuenergy@listbot.com Cc: nuenergy2@listbot.com ; freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Thursday, December 30, 1999 4:00 AM Subject: Atmospheric Energy Conversion Problem >Blockbuster Puzzle for Year 2000: > >The earth generates large electrostatic differences between >its atmosphere and surface. This is due to the fact >that the air has an excess of positive ions, while the >ground contains an excess of electrons. This field of ions >is measured at around 130-volts per meter of distance between >ground and sky. Very little current is measured between an >antenna wire strung up in the air and a grounding-rod. The >problem with tapping into this source of energy is that the >positive-ion density in the surrounding air is too low. This >results in almost zero charge flow from the ground ions towards >the positive atmospheric ions. > >There exists only one invention that has extracted a practical >amount of current from the earth’s electrostatic field. It is >the radiant energy receiver. The radiant energy receiver taps >into the earth’s electron reserve by dumping electrons into the >air. In doing this the device draws in replacement electrons from >the ground. Electric power is pumped by its circuitry. > >My question for the list is how can a device be built that does not >rely on radioactive material. I have this problem more than half >solved. Instead of bickering in the year 2000 let’s come up with >this answer. The answer would certainly transform the world. With >unlimited energy humanity could evolve in spite of the greed of the >filthy rich. It is a certainty that these kind folks will not want >to give up their slaves. There will be global madness for a time but >that is what change is all about. THe human race must evolve soon or >it is doomed to perish. Freedom is worth the price. No person on >earth has the right to live off another persons labor. > > > HAPPY YEAR 2000, > > -Bruce A. Perreault > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 2 21:46:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA14550; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 21:46:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 21:46:20 -0800 Message-ID: <001101bf55ae$d1f79f40$6fa270d1@acer> From: "sparky" To: , "Nu Energy Horizons" Cc: , Subject: Re: Atmospheric Energy Conversion Problem Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:53:10 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"FoxzA3.0.FZ3.iU3Su"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13476 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com -----Original Message----- From: sparky To: Nu Energy Horizons Cc: nuenergy2@listbot.com ; freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Sunday, January 02, 2000 8:08 PM Subject: Re: Atmospheric Energy Conversion Problem >Look at this . >http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/lab/6771/magnet1.html >-----Original Message----- >From: Bruce A. Perreault >To: nuenergy@listbot.com Cc: nuenergy2@listbot.com >; freenrg-L@eskimo.com >Date: Thursday, December 30, 1999 4:01 AM >Subject: Atmospheric Energy Conversion Problem > > >>Nu Energy Horizons - http://www.nuenergy@listbot.com >> >>The earth generates large electrostatic differences between >>its atmosphere and surface. This is due to the fact >>that the air has an excess of positive ions, while the >>ground contains an excess of electrons. This field of ions >>is measured at around 130-volts per meter of distance between >>ground and sky. Very little current is measured between an >>antenna wire strung up in the air and a grounding-rod. The >>problem with tapping into this source of energy is that the >>positive-ion density in the surrounding air is too low. This >>results in almost zero charge flow from the ground ions towards >>the positive atmospheric ions. >> >>There exists only one invention that has extracted a practical >>amount of current from the earth’s electrostatic field. It is >>the radiant energy receiver. The radiant energy receiver taps >>into the earth’s electron reserve by dumping electrons into the >>air. In doing this the device draws in replacement electrons from >>the ground. Electric power is pumped by its circuitry. >> >>My question for the list is how can a device be built that does not >>rely on radioactive material. I have this problem more than half >>solved. Instead of bickering in the year 2000 let’s come up with >>this answer. The answer would certainly transform the world. With >>unlimited energy humanity could evolve in spite of the greed of the >>filthy rich. It is a certainty that these kind folks will not want >>to give up their slaves. There will be global madness for a time but >>that is what change is all about. THe human race must evolve soon or >>it is doomed to perish. Freedom is worth the price. No person on >>earth has the right to live off another persons labor. >> >> >> HAPPY YEAR 2000, >> >> -Bruce A. Perreault >> >> >>______________________________________________________________________ >>To unsubscribe, write to nuenergy-unsubscribe@listbot.com >>______________________________________________________________________ >>Applying to college this year? >>Apply online at Embark.com and enter the Embark.com Tuition Sweepstakes! >You could win $80,000 for tuition to the college of your dreams! Enter daily >to increase your chances of winning: Sweepstakes ends 1/15/00. Click to >enter: http://www.listbot.com/links/embark >> > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 05:07:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA12011; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 05:07:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 05:07:03 -0800 Message-ID: <38709F36.741B@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 08:08:06 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick Monteverde CC: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Atmospheric Energy Conversion Problem References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eo-fL.0.ax2.tx9Su"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13477 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Bruce - > > I said that with tongue-in-cheek sarcasm because you said that it appeared > the a lot the material was lifted from your site, but the copyright on that > posted material was 1991. There was also an actual acknowledgement for help > with the Tesla materials given to someone else at a university, I forget the > name and location at the moment. You weren't mentioned. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI The posted 1991 copyright is an obvious fraud. Who was on the internet back then? -BAP From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 05:26:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA19269; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 05:26:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 05:26:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3870A3D8.6BA5@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 08:27:52 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com Subject: Re: Tesla's Fuel-less Generator Article References: <38709F36.741B@cyberportal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"w_qZU1.0.Pi4.PEASu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13478 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Rick, Here is a shred of proof for you in my favor from Nichelson's site; "...captains of industry...were afraid that they would have to scrap some of their direct current apparatus and the plants for manufacturing it, if the alternating current system received any support ... ignorance and false notions prevailed in the early nineties, because the captains of industry paid small attention to highly trained scientists " I have this book in my personal library where this quote was obtained. I'm not saying that the whole article was written by me, ceratainly 1/3rd is my work. What has been lifted is word for word! No credit was given to me. This is an example of what happens to me all the time. When I lift something from an old text I give reference to the work. -Bruce A. Perreault Bruce A. Perreault wrote: > > Rick Monteverde wrote: > > > > Bruce - > > > > I said that with tongue-in-cheek sarcasm because you said that it appeared > > the a lot the material was lifted from your site, but the copyright on that > > posted material was 1991. There was also an actual acknowledgement for help > > with the Tesla materials given to someone else at a university, I forget the > > name and location at the moment. You weren't mentioned. > > > > - Rick Monteverde > > Honolulu, HI > > The posted 1991 copyright is an obvious fraud. Who was on the internet > back then? > > -BAP From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 07:49:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA06786; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 07:48:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 07:48:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3870C524.3D6C1583@info2000.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 08:49:56 -0700 From: Ted Reply-To: tsleber@info2000.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Still going References: <19991230.094548.-389713.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> <386B993C.6685E999@info2000.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fLR5e3.0.vf1.fJCSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13479 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Robin, his plates are set a 3/8". He showed the effect at the Phoenix exotic research conference. It was quite obvious. He thinks that the H2O is not actually dissociating except at the plates. He thinks that the gas produced in the center is actually like steam but instead of heat energy expanding the molecules, the electrical energy is expanding them. He thinks that this is why Brown's gas can sublimate tungston, cut wood and not burn your hand. He thinks that instead of the 'steam' having heat energy to give up, it gives up the electrical energy when it burns. It is facinating stuff. At least, this is my take on what George presented. Ted From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 08:00:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA13077; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 08:00:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 08:00:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3870C7D6.68BC@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 11:01:26 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com Subject: Joe Cell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PUoix2.0.AC3.LUCSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13480 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Joe Cell Theory: The cell producing the white mist appears to be the same mist that is produced from an ultrasonic water atomizer. It is in my opinion that the Joe cell does the same thing. The engine vibration provides the power to his ultrasonic type cell. Little current may be required for electrolysis if the water molecules are first broken down to their smallest componants. -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 08:36:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA28836; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 08:35:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 08:35:58 -0800 Message-ID: <3870CFB5.61CA@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 11:35:01 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com Subject: Sparky Sweet Device Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"s2UKB.0.T27.j_CSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13481 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sweet Device Theory: Do you remember the type of magnets that were used in the Sweet device? They were made out of a magnetized ferroelectric ceramic (barium titanate). What would you have to do to make the magnetic field of this type of magnet oscillate? Come on people, this is an easy one. :) The conditioning that Sparky may have used is called "poling." http://www.physikinstrumente.com/tutorial/4_15.html#material It is in my humble opinion that the conditioning is not what effected the output frequency, it was the coil was used between the two opposing magnets that determined the operating frequency. What Sparky had was a neet way to transform a batteries low volt to a higher voltage to light up light-bulbs and power motors that required a higher voltage. This was done by pulsing battery current through a coil that was sandwiched between his unique piezoelectric ceramic opposing magnets. By the way, I suspect that Searl's developed this type of magnet too. I challenge anyone this year to prove me wrong on this. If I am wrong I will have to hit myself on the back with a big fish. If I am right then I get a big bozo button. :) -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 08:48:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA03806; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 08:48:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 08:48:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3870D293.2ED2@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 11:47:15 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Where are Electrinium... References: <20000102173353.93852.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4XKy8.0.Jx.TBDSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13482 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com jukka kinnunen wrote: > > Where are the "Tesla´s Electrinium battery" > You try make to a Electrinium Battery at few years ago. > What happened, what´s go wrong? Even though it is 10% efficient, and gives out high-voltage, this being better than conventional solar cells... It is too expensive to manufacture at this time. It appears that a patent has been secured by another gentleman. > > I ask that because, I want try to do that invention again. > Where you get a Silicon material? You make it yourself, how? > > Please reply to me. > > Best Regards Mr. Jukka Kinnunen > FINLAND U.S. Patent No. 4,160,927 should answers your questions here. http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US04160927__ Best Regards, Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 10:21:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA15180; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 10:21:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 10:21:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3870E888.4D4CEDB0@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 10:20:56 -0800 From: eks1 Reply-To: eks1@earthlink.net Organization: Systems Research Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Atmospheric Energy Conversion Problem References: <38709F36.741B@cyberportal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Bft6P1.0.4j3.JYESu"@mx1> To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13483 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com "Bruce A. Perreault" wrote: > Rick Monteverde wrote: > > > > Bruce - > > > > I said that with tongue-in-cheek sarcasm because you said that it appeared > > the a lot the material was lifted from your site, but the copyright on that > > posted material was 1991. There was also an actual acknowledgement for help > > with the Tesla materials given to someone else at a university, I forget the > > name and location at the moment. You weren't mentioned. > > > > - Rick Monteverde > > Honolulu, HI > > The posted 1991 copyright is an obvious fraud. Who was on the internet > back then? > > -BAP There were those of us on the Internet at that time, in fact some of us have been on since 1983! -EKS From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 10:41:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA03587; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 10:40:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 10:40:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3870ED2F.59D8@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 13:40:47 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: eks1@earthlink.net CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Atmospheric Energy Conversion Problem References: <38709F36.741B@cyberportal.net> <3870E888.4D4CEDB0@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aXXWn1.0.qt.TqESu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13484 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com eks1 wrote: > > There were those of us on the Internet at that time, in fact some of us have > been on since 1983! Must been text only back then. No matter. The fact remains that alot of that info. was lifted from me. Let's drop it at that. Let's focus this year on getting results. -BAP From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 10:47:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA27717; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 10:47:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 10:47:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3870EF08.775E@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 13:48:40 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nu Energy Horizons CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Recent Breakthrough! References: <3870DF50.DD7021B0@globalcrossing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"STdX81.0.-m6.AxESu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13485 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Martin, I now have a process that we extract the required material very cheaply. It will no longer be rare. There will be plenty to go around. I assure you that the asking price will be more than fair. It appears that the amount of "R" material will come just under the line of requiring a license. However, after a fresh unit is fired up for the first time you may not be able to transport it from your property without a license. -Bruce A. Perreault MARTIN WOLFF wrote: > > I guess you have been playing with Rare Earths such as Neodymium. > But regardless of what specifically it is, if it is rare and expensive > (your words on your website), how useful can it be. > > What I'm saying here is is there ever going to be enough to go around? > > Martin. > > PS Hope it works BTW. > > >1/3/00 > >Press Release: > > > > > >On December 31rst, 1999 a breakthrough was made in regards > >to my radiant energy research. Today I will begin to build > >a NU device from scratch using the breakthrough that I had > >discovered on the day of New Years Eve. With this latest > >finding the wall has been crumbled down. I estimate that > >within the next three months all will be complete and the > >technology will be ready to be put through the acid tests. > >For these tests I would like to nominate Eric Krieg to do > >the validation. After validation I will ask Mr. Eric Krieg > >to hold a national press conference. > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 11:32:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA13206; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:32:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:32:19 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:19:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Recent Breakthrough! Message-ID: <20000103.142615.-296705.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CdJQC3.0.FE3.2bFSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13486 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mr. Perreault, What is the URL of your website? >It appears that the amount of >"R" material will come just under the line of requiring >a license. However, after a fresh unit is fired up for >the first time you may not be able to transport it from >your property without a license. What is "R" material? Is it radioactive (thus requiring a license)? -Tom Grimes ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 11:57:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA22733; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:57:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:57:02 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.16.20000103120139.260feafa@earthlink.net> X-Sender: ddameron@earthlink.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (16) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 12:01:39 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Dave Dameron Subject: Re: Myth of Tesla Patent 512,340 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"B0U1t2.0.yY5.CyFSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13487 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 11:54:50 Hi Harvey and all, >At 09:09 PM 01/02/00 -0800, you wrote: >>On Sun, 02 Jan 2000 18:44:06 -0500, nuenergy@cyberportal.net wrote: >> >> Harvey, >> >> This patent clearly shows a bifilar coil. >> Tesla pointed out that these coils have >> a greatly increased capacitance. With this >> increase added capacitors are not necessary. >> >> >> -BAP >>CAN be shown experimentally by taking double stranded speaker wire and >>winding it onto a cylinder. Measure the inductance of one winding >>alone.Route the end wire back to the beginning of the second winding and >>measure the inductance of both in series. Instead of it being double as the >>induction laws tell us, we get almost 4 times the inductance. Actually the conventional inductance laws says the inductance is 4X for 2X the windings, with a small correction factor. This is for windings that are coupled inductively. Unusual geometries can minimize this, such as very long solenoids. Only if the 2 inductances are independent can their impedances be added in series (2X). >Additionally >the inductance laws tell us that if we have two identical inductances in >parallel, the equivalent inductance should be half of the former value. Again this is only for uncoupled inductances. As a thought exercise, take a single inductance and split the wire lengthwise in 2. You have now 2 equal parallel inductances, but the inductance is unchanged. > >When >>this is done with the speaker wire twin coil system, the inductances in >>parallel are not correspondingly reduced on the new simultaneous value. > I also think that Tesla was only increasing the interwinding capacitance, reducing the parallel resonant frequency. Two solenoids could also be used, one wound over the other, but don't recall if Tesla ever mentioned this. It does say something of the quality of the external capacitances available at the time, that he would prefer the interwinding capacitance instead. -Dave > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 12:36:38 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA21728; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:36:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:36:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Fred Epps" To: , Subject: RE: Fw: Re: Still going Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:25:17 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3870C524.3D6C1583@info2000.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"UpmVe2.0.IJ5.3XGSu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13488 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Ted, I haven't been following this thread closely since I don't think electrolysis is the best way to get energy out of water and electricity. What you are describing now is closer to the mark. Peter Graneau has done some very interesting research with fast arcs through water showing that the water expands explosively as very fine fog particles. There is little heat and no electrolysis. According to careful experiments done by Richard Hull, the thrust generated by this expansion is at least a bit over the energy needed to create the arc. On examination of his experiments, it appears that he has underestimated the energy release, if anything. Graneau theorizes that the arc is aligning the water molecules in such a way that the attractive forces are neutralized and natural repulsive forces are released. It may also be that the atom itself expands as electrons jump to outer orbits, although I know little about this side of things. Fred > > his plates are set a 3/8". He showed the effect at the Phoenix > exotic research conference. It was quite obvious. He thinks > that the H2O is not actually dissociating except at the plates. > He thinks that the gas produced in the center is actually like > steam but instead of heat energy expanding the molecules, the > electrical energy is expanding them. He thinks that this is > why Brown's gas can sublimate tungston, cut wood and not burn > your hand. He thinks that instead of the 'steam' having heat > energy to give up, it gives up the electrical energy when it > burns. It is facinating stuff. > > At least, this is my take on what George presented. > > Ted > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 14:32:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA08118; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:32:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:32:20 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Still going Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 09:32:07 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <9o727so672968dafiq7uuhagvqbun37fnk@4ax.com> References: <19991230.094548.-389713.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> <386B993C.6685E999@info2000.net> <3870C524.3D6C1583@info2000.net> In-Reply-To: <3870C524.3D6C1583@info2000.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA07982 Resent-Message-ID: <"lqOXB3.0.i-1.pDISu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13489 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Mon, 03 Jan 2000 08:49:56 -0700, Ted wrote: >Robin, > >his plates are set a 3/8". He showed the effect at the Phoenix >exotic research conference. It was quite obvious. I take it this means that you have witnessed this yourself. In which case there does appear to be something "anomalous" occurring. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 14:41:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA03240; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:40:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:40:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3871240F.4E1D@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 17:34:55 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Recent Breakthrough! References: <20000103.142615.-296705.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YaqCO2.0.To.jLISu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13490 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > > Mr. Perreault, > > What is the URL of your website? http://www.nuenergy.org > > >It appears that the amount of > >"R" material will come just under the line of requiring > >a license. However, after a fresh unit is fired up for > >the first time you may not be able to transport it from > >your property without a license. > > What is "R" material? Is it radioactive (thus requiring a license)? Yes. :) -BAP From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 17:22:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA13130; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:22:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:22:11 -0800 Message-ID: <38713713.B236608E@info2000.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 16:56:03 -0700 From: Ted Reply-To: tsleber@info2000.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Still going References: <19991230.094548.-389713.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> <386B993C.6685E999@info2000.net> <3870C524.3D6C1583@info2000.net> <9o727so672968dafiq7uuhagvqbun37fnk@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PFrrq1.0.0D3.2jKSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13491 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Robin, Yep, I saw it with my two brown eyes. Ted PS I also saw GEET's engine running on crude oile and fruit juice. Neat stuff at that conference. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 17:49:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA13820; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:49:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:49:43 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Still going Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 12:29:42 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <19991230.094548.-389713.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> <386B993C.6685E999@info2000.net> <3870C524.3D6C1583@info2000.net> <9o727so672968dafiq7uuhagvqbun37fnk@4ax.com> <38713713.B236608E@info2000.net> In-Reply-To: <38713713.B236608E@info2000.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id RAA13733 Resent-Message-ID: <"KltT53.0.nN3.p6LSu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13492 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Mon, 03 Jan 2000 16:56:03 -0700, Ted wrote: >Robin, > >Yep, I saw it with my two brown eyes. >Ted > >PS I also saw GEET's engine running on crude oile and fruit juice. >Neat stuff at that conference. What was the exhaust from the GEET engine like (both start-up and constant running)? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 19:33:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA09225; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 19:33:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 19:33:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 19:33:47 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Still going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"UtCqf3.0.2G2.UeMSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13493 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Fri, 31 Dec 1999, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > On Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:41:17 -0700, Ted wrote: > >Check out eagleresearch.com > >He is producing gas midway between the plates of his electrolizer. > > Yes, so he says. I would like to see this. If true, it is a fundamentally > new physical principle IMO (by new, I mean unknown to current science). That's what I said when I saw it at the Phoenix conference. > (However looking for prosaic explanations, I would first suspect that the > plates are so close together that one may not be able to see clearly exactly > where the gas is coming from). Wiseman's device was clear acrylic tube about 12" long with a stack of electrode disks inside, with maybe a 3/16" electrolyte-filled space between the metal disks. Only the end disks have electrical connections. When power was first applied, a disk-shaped cloud of bubbles appeared in the center of each electrolyte volume, with obvious spaces between the cloud and the electrodes. The bubbles did NOT come from the metal, instead they appeared in the electrolyte midway between the metal plates. Wiseman said that with longer operation, gas DOES appear at the electrode surfaces as well. After a few seconds, convection starts mixing things up and the clouds are hard to see. However, when first turned on, the bubble-clouds were very distinct. They were about 1/16" thick, with about 1/8" of clear space on either side. Wiseman suspects that the gas at the electrodes is H2 and O2, while the gas that forms between them is "Brown's". If true, then most Brown's-Gas generators make "impure" gas which contains lots of H2 and O2. Perhaps if there were ion-permeable membranes placed in the electrolyte, the central bubble-cloud could be kept separate from the bubble clouds which form at the metal surfaces. | | | | | |<----- ion-permeable membranes | | == | | ==<----- metal electrode plates == | | == == | | == == | | == == | :: | == == | :: | == MEMBRANES PREVENT == | :: | == THE CENTRAL BUBBLE-CLOUD FROM == | :: | == MIXING WITH BUBBLES FROM THE PLATES == | :: | == == | :: | == == | :: | == == | :: | == == | :: | == == | :: | == | | Some info and speculation: during conventional DC electrolysis, the electrolyte becomes filled with dissolved H and O (H near the neg, O near the pos). Bubbles appear on the metal plates for the same reason that bubbles appear on the sides of your beer mug: they are nucleated by something on the solid surface (these nucleation-centers are usually tiny bubbles adhering within microscopic clefts in the material.) Therefor electrolysis does not create bubbles, instead it creates electrolyte that is oversaturated with gas atoms. The liquid then "effervesces," and bubbles appear. If the liquid is sufficiently oversaturated, then bubbles will nucleate spontaneously, and could pop into existence in the liquid far from the solid surface. Now suppose that the electrodes are closely spaced. If the hydrogen- containing liquid from the neg electrode should overlap with the oxygen-containing liquid from the pos electrode, maybe something strange would occur. Rather than chemical reactions producing H2 and O2, maybe the free H and O would find each other, and some sort of metastable H=O or H=O=H gas would appear. It wouldn't be steam, since steam would instantly condense into water again. And besides, steam isn't flammable! Hey, I just realized that I described the process without mentioning AC. If the "overlap" of the two gas-filled liquids is the important part, then maybe AC isn't required. Maybe close-spaced electrodes are the key. (Or maybe we need both AC *and* close-spaced electrodes.) When hydrogen atoms are liberated through electrolysis, how long before they find another hydrogen atom and form H2? Could they possibly wander many millimeters away from the electrode, and bond with an unpaired oxygen atom? We'd expect this to just form water+heat, and the whole point of the electrolysis would be lost. But if it forms "metastable water", and if this water refuses to bond with the other H2O molecules in the electrolyte, then the stuff would build up to saturation and start making bubbles spontaneously in the region where it formed. Even so, I'm still confused. When AC is used, each electrode would sequentially produce first H and then O. For this reason, wouldn't the brown's gas build up mostly at the surface of the metal? Maybe the 60Hz frequency is so low that the atoms "think" it is DC! Maybe they have time to move from the electrode all the way across half of the gap before the polarity reverses. Either that, or the e-fields are producing gas all by themselves without any need for electrodes, and this gas occurs far out in the electrolyte! (If so, if e-fields tear apart the water, then why do the bubbles arise far from the electrodes, rather than filling the entire electrolyte uniformly?) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 19:51:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA18065; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 19:51:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 19:51:57 -0800 Message-ID: <20000104035559.5556.qmail@nwcst289.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 3 Jan 00 22:55:59 EST From: Horace To: energy21 Subject: Re: Al catalysed H2O dissociation CC: freenrg-L@eskimo.com X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA18020 Resent-Message-ID: <"AxvSB2.0.zP4.RvMSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13494 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com "Michael S. Johnston" wrote: > energy21 - http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135 > > Hi, > I found a website on a car running on water. It's address is > http://layo.com > To make things simpler I copied the site and put it n my list. In > this page are a patent and a letter from BMW who tested the device and > found it to work. I am in the process of contacting BMW directly in > hopes of getting verification from them directly. Not that I don't > believe the gentleman who maintains this site, rather, I like to see > evidence myself. If BMW confirms the accuracy of this information then > we should DEFINITELY look at this! The concept isn't too difficult. It > involves a MIG welder. Here though you are producing an electrical arc > under water and this might bypass Faraday's laws to some extent. At any > rate it looks VERY interesting! > MJ > -------------------------------------------------------- Interesting... let the Aluminum do the work in pulling apart the water molecule instead of the electric current alone. Let's calculate the energies involved. Masses of elements and compounds involved: H = 1.00797 g/mol O = 15.9994 g/mol Al = 26.98154 g/mol H2 = 2.01594 g/mol O2 = 31.9988 g/mol H2O = 18.01534 g/mol Al2O3 = 101.96128 g/mol "Aluminum oxide" The reaction can be written as: 2(Al) + 3(H2O) --> Al2O3 + 3(H2) "it is not written correctly in the article" Substituting the appropriate masses yelds the following values: 2(26.98154g[Al]) + 3(18.01534g[H2O]) --> 101.96128g[Al2O3] + 3(2.01594g[H2]) !!! 53.96308g[Al] + 54.04602g[H2O] --> 101.96128g[Al2O3] + 6.04782g[H2] !!! ..so approximately: 1kg[Aluminum] + 1kg[water] --> 1.9kg[Aluminum oxide] + 0.1kg[Hydrogen gas] ... where energy in 0.1kg[H2] is equal to energy in 0.4L[gasoline] ... if 1kg[Aluminum] == 0.4L[gasoline] then 2.5kg[Aluminum] == 1L[gasoline] and then 9.5kg[Aluminum] == 1Gallon [gasoline] ...so if Aluminum metal costs $1/kg then the gasoline would have to cost $2.5/L or $9.5/Gallon to be even. $9.5 a GALLON !!! QUOTE: "...A 900 Kilo car runs 600 Kilometer on 20 liter water and 1 Kilo aluminum..." So... since 1 liter of water weighs on earth 1kg, the remaining 19 liters of water must have not participated in the reaction ! Also the volume of the molecular hydrogen gas at standard temperature & pressure is: 1mol[H2] = 2.01594g[H2] = 22.415dm^3[H2] = 22.415 liters = 22415cc (Note: 1dm^3 = 1L = 1 Liter, and 1cm^3 = 1cc = 1mL) ...1 Liter is a little more than 1 Quart ...so 1kg of Aluminum yelds: 112.073g[H2] = 1246dm^3[H2] = 1246000cm^3[H2] QUOTE: "...A unit substantially as shown in the drawings has been used to drive a 500cc motor cycle engine. The wire 22 had a diameter of 1,6 mm and was of commercial purity (98°'~A1). The unit produced over 1000 cc of hydrogen a minute, with an aluminum wire consumption rate of 140 to 180 cm per minute..." ...Calculating the amount of Aluminum metal in the wire: Density of Aluminum metal = 2700kg/m^3 = 2.7kg/dm^3 1.6mm diameter Aluminum wire (98% purity) = 5.32g/m 140cm of the above Al wire = 7.45g[Al] 180cm of the above Al wire = 9.58g[Al] ..so: 2(Al) + 3(H2O) --> Al2O3 + 3(H2) 7.45g[Al wire] + 7.46g[H20] ==> 14.08g[[Al2O3] + 0.83g[H2] "for 140cm wire" 9.58g[Al wire] + 9.59g[H20] ==> 18.10g[[Al2O3] + 1.07g[H2] "for 180cm wire" ...the volume of the Hydrogen gas at standard temp & pressure, created in the 2 above cases is: 1.07g[H2] = 9.23dm^3[H2] = 9230cm^3[H2] "for 140cm of wire" 0.83g[H2] = 11.94dm^3[H2] = 11940cm^3[H2] "for 180cm of wire" ...this means that the device described by the author is only apx. 10% efficient and in theory could produce 10 times more hydrogen gas. (or the quoted 1000cc volume of generated gas is under high pressure and takes up 1,000cc instead of 10,000cc) QUOTE: "...The rate of deposition of aluminum oxide was about 4 kilograms per 500 kilometers traveled..." ...so if 4kg of Aluminum oxide was deposited than the following amount of Hydrogen gas was generated: 2117g[Al] + 2120g[H2O] --> 4000g[Al2O3] + 237.3g[H2] ...which is equivalent to energy in 0.93L[gasoline].... WHAT AN EFFICIENT CAR - 500km on less than 1 liter equivalent of gasoline !!! ...Notice that during the 500km run, apx. 2kg of Aluminum metal would be needed to generate 4kg of Aluminum oxide, which doesn't agree with: QUOTE: "...A 900 Kilo car runs 600 Kilometer on 20 liter water and 1 Kilo aluminum..." ...at standard temperature and pressure 237.3g of hydrogen gas takes the following volume: 237.3g[H2] = 2638.5dm^3[H2] = 2638.5 liters [H2] = 2638500cc [H2] Heat (energy) of Combustion of some fuels not counting the heat of byproducts (exhaust): Molecular Hydrogen 120.0 Mj/kg Natural Gas 48.0 Mj/kg Liquified petroleum gas 46.1 Mj/kg Aviation gasoline 44.0 Mj/kg Automotive gasoline 43.8 Mj/kg Kerosine 43.3 Mj/kg Diesel 42.5 Mj/kg Some liquid fuel densities: Liquid hydrogen 0.07 g/mL = 70g/L = 14.286L/kg Automotive gasoline 0.70 g/mL = 700g/L = 1.428L/kg Diesel fuel 0.82 g/mL = 820g/L = 1.219L/kg ... so 1kg of Hydrogen gas [H2] has the same energy as: 1kg[H2] = 120Mj = 2.74kg[Gasoline] = 3.91L[Gasoline] = 2.82kg[Diesel] = 3.44L[Diesel] QUOTE: "...Conventional modifications were made to the carburetor to enable the engine to run on a mixture of hydrogen and air. The wire 22 carries a voltage of about 18000 volts with a current of about 1 amp..." ...This must be a typo. Maybe the 1amp current refers to the current in primary winding. If not than assuming 25% duty cycle and 0.5 cos(phi) power factor, the electrical energy delivered by the ignition coils would be: 18000V * 1A * 0.25 * 0.5 = 2.2kW. Enought to run my boiler !. Regards, Horace ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 21:31:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA23934; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 21:29:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 21:29:42 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Still going Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 16:29:36 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA23911 Resent-Message-ID: <"dBr0a.0.tr5.5LOSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13495 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Mon, 3 Jan 2000 19:33:47 -0800 (PST), William Beaty wrote: [snip] >which contains lots of H2 and O2. Perhaps if there were ion-permeable >membranes placed in the electrolyte, the central bubble-cloud could be >kept separate from the bubble clouds which form at the metal surfaces. > > | | > | | > | |<----- ion-permeable membranes > | | > == | | ==<----- metal electrode plates > == | | == > == | | == > == | | == > == | :: | == > == | :: | == MEMBRANES PREVENT > == | :: | == THE CENTRAL BUBBLE-CLOUD FROM > == | :: | == MIXING WITH BUBBLES FROM THE PLATES > == | :: | == > == | :: | == > == | :: | == > == | :: | == > == | :: | == > == | :: | == > | | > I suspect that this would be the equivalent of placing extra plates in the electrolyte, i.e. one just creates extra cells, where the semi-permeable membrane forms an electrode. [snip] >Some info and speculation: during conventional DC electrolysis, the >electrolyte becomes filled with dissolved H and O (H near the neg, O near >the pos). Bubbles appear on the metal plates for the same reason that >bubbles appear on the sides of your beer mug: they are nucleated by >something on the solid surface (these nucleation-centers are usually tiny >bubbles adhering within microscopic clefts in the material.) Therefor >electrolysis does not create bubbles, instead it creates electrolyte that >is oversaturated with gas atoms. The liquid then "effervesces," and Hmm...I think single atoms tend to "stick" to the metal of the electrode, until they meet another such, and form a molecule. So saturation tends to happen close to the electrodes first. [snip] >Now suppose that the electrodes are closely spaced. If the hydrogen- >containing liquid from the neg electrode should overlap with the >oxygen-containing liquid from the pos electrode, maybe something strange >would occur. Rather than chemical reactions producing H2 and O2, maybe >the free H and O would find each other, and some sort of metastable H=O or >H=O=H gas would appear. H2O2 perhaps? >It wouldn't be steam, since steam would instantly >condense into water again. And besides, steam isn't flammable! It might be interesting to see if the resultant solution has oxidising capabilities. > >Hey, I just realized that I described the process without mentioning AC. I believe Wiseman uses pulsed DC rather than AC. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 23:47:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA27591; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 23:47:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 23:47:11 -0800 Message-ID: <20000104074709.56900.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.227.235] From: "Timothy Flytcher" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Still going Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 23:47:09 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"lLNxj3.0.0l6.-LQSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13496 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > >Robin, > > > >his plates are set a 3/8". He showed the effect at the Phoenix > >exotic research conference. It was quite obvious. > >I take it this means that you have witnessed this yourself. In which case >there does appear to be something "anomalous" occurring. > Thought... I have been thinking... what if you could make a simple electolizer that would keep the hydrogen in a pressure bottle wile letting the oxygen escape at room pressure... I keep coming up with just another set of electrodes in the middle... I have seen were the first twin engine aircraft lost there wings due to harmonics (it focuses the vibration at the root)... so could it be that by setting up a standing wave you would then create another set of "electrodes" formed by the water it self, between the "plates"??? Or is it just late and I'm babbling... good night... Timothy... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 3 23:54:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA30448; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 23:54:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 23:54:00 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Still going Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 18:53:56 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000104074709.56900.qmail@hotmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20000104074709.56900.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA30427 Resent-Message-ID: <"dLHHP3.0.fR7.OSQSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13497 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Mon, 03 Jan 2000 23:47:09 PST, Timothy Flytcher wrote: [snip] >Thought... I have been thinking... what if you could make a simple >electolizer that would keep the hydrogen in a pressure bottle wile letting >the oxygen escape at room pressure... I keep coming up with just another set >of electrodes in the middle... I have seen were the first twin engine >aircraft lost there wings due to harmonics (it focuses the vibration at the >root)... so could it be that by setting up a standing wave you would then >create another set of "electrodes" formed by the water it self, between the >"plates"??? [snip] Actually, I had been wondering this myself, but wasn't going to say anything till I had it nailed down. You could calculate the wavelength based on speed and frequency, neither of which however are known, until one actually understands what is vibrating. (I.e. is it an electrical vibration, a sonic vibration, ....?) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 00:34:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA08794; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:34:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:34:57 -0800 Message-ID: <20000104083456.3445.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.227.235] From: "Timothy Flytcher" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Still going Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 00:34:56 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"CVzmD1.0.E92.m2RSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13498 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com >which however are known, until one actually understands what is vibrating. >(I.e. is it an electrical vibration, a sonic vibration, ....?) > Ok Robin, what's the difference??? I mean really the two are interchangeable in most cases are they not??? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 00:49:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA15152; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:49:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:49:28 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Still going Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 19:49:22 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000104083456.3445.qmail@hotmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20000104083456.3445.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA15110 Resent-Message-ID: <"-9nmc.0.bi3.NGRSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13499 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 04 Jan 2000 00:34:56 PST, Timothy Flytcher wrote: >>which however are known, until one actually understands what is vibrating. >>(I.e. is it an electrical vibration, a sonic vibration, ....?) >> >Ok Robin, what's the difference??? I mean really the two are interchangeable >in most cases are they not??? No, sound travels in water at about 1500 m/sec, while electrical signals travel at near the speed of light. This means that an electrical vibration with a wavelength matching the distance between the plates would have a frequency about 100000 times as high as a sound vibration of the same wavelength. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 00:56:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA18434; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:56:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:56:47 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Still going Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 19:56:44 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000104083456.3445.qmail@hotmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA18416 Resent-Message-ID: <"o2n6u2.0.xV4.FNRSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13500 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 04 Jan 2000 19:49:22 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: [snip] >travel at near the speed of light. This means that an electrical vibration >with a wavelength matching the distance between the plates would have a >frequency about 100000 times as high as a sound vibration of the same >wavelength. Make that 200000. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 07:54:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA00330; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 07:54:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 07:54:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <387217CB.716DDA5@info2000.net> Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 08:54:51 -0700 From: Ted Reply-To: tsleber@info2000.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Re: GEET Engine at show References: <19991230.094548.-389713.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> <386B993C.6685E999@info2000.net> <3870C524.3D6C1583@info2000.net> <9o727so672968dafiq7uuhagvqbun37fnk@4ax.com> <38713713.B236608E@info2000.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ixDbh1.0.w4.LUXSu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13501 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Robin, I couldn't smell anything in the exhaust but my sinuses aren't the best. I can smell regular exhaust, though. Paul Pantone put a Kleenex tissue over the exhaust for sever minutes and it did not discolor. He said that they had the exhaust analyzed and it contained more oxygen than ambient and a trace of helium. Interesting, huh? Ted From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 08:05:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA06676; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:05:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:05:11 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:19:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Al catalysed H2O dissociation Message-ID: <20000104.105837.-427303.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5-10,16-24 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"k4X3F1.0.3e1.seXSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13502 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Horace wrote: >The reaction can be written as: > >2(Al) + 3(H2O) --> Al2O3 + 3(H2) "it is not written correctly in the article" Why wouldn't the aluminum form Al(OH)3? The reaction would then be: 2 Al (s) + 6 H2O (l) ---> 2 Al(OH)3 (s) + 3 H2 (g) This reaction would consume more H2O (twice as much, specifically) and the aluminum product can be treated with acid to release the water used (although it would drive up the cost of running). Also, don't catalysts participate in a reaction without being changed (as the net result)? If the Al is being consumed in the reaction, then it is a fuel (or reactant, or reagent; whatever you wish to call it). -Tom Grimes P.S.: What is this Brown's Gas that keeps being mentioned? ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 08:07:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA08092; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:07:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:07:14 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:42:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Still going Message-ID: <20000104.105838.-427303.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2,4-6,16-17,35-43 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yijMO2.0.L-1.ogXSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13503 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >You could calculate the wavelength based on speed and frequency, neither of >which however are known, until one actually understands what is vibrating. >(I.e. is it an electrical vibration, a sonic vibration, ....?) Why not just set up an apparatus, similar to Michael Johnstons, that consists of a long "water wire" (tube filled with water and an electrolyte) and put voltage across it? Then you can either measure the speed directly as the length of the "wire" divided by the delay between putting the voltage across the wire and when current flows through it. Or, you could use a logic circuit to compare the time it takes to "start" the water against the time it takes in a metal wire of the same cross-section and length. Since the disparity between the speed of sound in water and the speed of light in water is so great, one should be able to determine which one is in operation. By the way, someone mentioned the Drs. Graneau. I have read their book "Newtonian Electrodynamics", and found it very interesting. However, in the same post, the author said that they (the Drs.) found that no electrolysis is conducted with the high-voltage arcs they used. They used a large, high voltage capacitor bank with an inductor, thus creating a circuit that delivered its power at resonance between the capacitance and the inductance. I think it has been sufficiently established that AC only produces electrolysis at certain frequencies, and the chance that the Drs. circuit was tuned to one of them is very small. When I tried to reproduce their saltwater-related experiments, I did observe electrolysis (or at least a phenomena I attributed to electrolysis). Specifically, when I put one high voltage lead at the bottom of a shallow dish filled with saltwater and touched the other to the surface above it, I not only observed the cool mist that is thrown up, but the arc burned larger and hotter. I assume that this was due to the H2 (g) produced by very rapid electrolysis being ignited by the arc. The high voltage cicuit I used was simply a transformer from a microwave that was rectified by diodes and smoothed a bit with a small capacitor. -Tom Grimes ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 08:18:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA13180; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:18:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:18:13 -0800 Message-ID: <38721D82.A4458838@info2000.net> Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 09:19:14 -0700 From: Ted Reply-To: tsleber@info2000.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: What is this Brown's gas? References: <20000104.105837.-427303.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UFIPp3.0.mD3.4rXSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13504 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tom Look at eagleresearch.com Ted From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 13:28:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA03720; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 13:28:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 13:28:28 -0800 From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: RE: Few: Re: Still going Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 13:17:32 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20000104.105838.-427303.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"-Jvfm1.0.0w.xNcSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13505 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Tom, > > By the way, someone mentioned the Drs. Graneau. I have > read their book > "Newtonian Electrodynamics", and found it very interesting. However, in > the same post, the author said that they (the Drs.) found that no > electrolysis is conducted with the high-voltage arcs they used. They > used a large, high voltage capacitor bank with an inductor, thus creating > a circuit that delivered its power at resonance between the capacitance > and the inductance. No, actually it was a high current setup with inductance and oscillation reduced as much as possible. With high inductance it won't work. Too much energy is dissipated that way. I think it has been sufficiently established that AC > only produces electrolysis at certain frequencies, and the chance that > the Drs. circuit was tuned to one of them is very small. They were not trying to electrolyze water. They discovered this effect while experimenting with longitudinal Ampere forces in currents. Water was never electrolysed during these tests, and the water didn't even get hot. All the energy was kinetic, and there was a lot of it :-) When I tried to > reproduce their saltwater-related experiments, They did not use salt water. The effect drops the more electrolytes are in the water. Any electrolysis dissipates the energy. The purer the water the more power is needed to cause the effect, but the bang is much bigger. I did observe electrolysis > (or at least a phenomena I attributed to electrolysis). Specifically, > when I put one high voltage lead at the bottom of a shallow dish filled > with saltwater and touched the other to the surface above it, I not only > observed the cool mist that is thrown up, but the arc burned larger and > hotter. I assume that this was due to the H2 (g) produced by very rapid > electrolysis being ignited by the arc. The high voltage cicuit I used > was simply a transformer from a microwave that was rectified by diodes > and smoothed a bit with a small capacitor. What you are doing is interesting, but it is not related to the Graneau tests. They were all very short, noninductive arcs through pure water. (Some tests were done with salt water but these were not as effective). I suggest you find the original papers and read them. I don't have the references right here, but I will let them for you if you want. Fred > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 14:15:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA18157; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:15:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:15:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:14:54 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Still going In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-KFv9.0.UR4.f3dSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13506 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 4 Jan 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > I suspect that this would be the equivalent of placing extra plates in the > electrolyte, i.e. one just creates extra cells, where the semi-permeable > membrane forms an electrode. Nope, because "electrode" in this case means "metal/electrolyte chemistry". A nonmetal barrier against bubbles is nothing like a water/metal interface. Back before semi-permeable membranes, they used "salt bridges", no? > [snip] > >Some info and speculation: during conventional DC electrolysis, the > >electrolyte becomes filled with dissolved H and O (H near the neg, O near > >the pos). Bubbles appear on the metal plates for the same reason that > >bubbles appear on the sides of your beer mug: they are nucleated by > >something on the solid surface (these nucleation-centers are usually tiny > >bubbles adhering within microscopic clefts in the material.) Therefor > >electrolysis does not create bubbles, instead it creates electrolyte that > >is oversaturated with gas atoms. The liquid then "effervesces," and > Hmm...I think single atoms tend to "stick" to the metal of the electrode, > until they meet another such, and form a molecule. So saturation tends to > happen close to the electrodes first. Wouldn't "close" then be an atomic monolayer in contact with the metal? If the H atoms (ions?) usually escape from the metal surface before becoming H2, then there would be a macroscopic layer of h-saturated liquid adjacent to the metal. Maybe I should stop guessing and go find a text on this. > >It wouldn't be steam, since steam would instantly > >condense into water again. And besides, steam isn't flammable! > > It might be interesting to see if the resultant solution has oxidising > capabilities. I think there was mention of this in Infinite Energy magazine: the water adjacent to metal electrodes in a DC electrolysis cell supposedly has some anomalous properties. I think they mentioned health effects and bacteriocidal action. > I believe Wiseman uses pulsed DC rather than AC. That could be. I was under the impression that the point of his stacked-cell design was to allow direct connection to 120VAC with no huge transformer, but with some sort of switching regulator. I don't know if that regulator also rectifies. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 14:24:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA18859; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:24:25 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:24:25 -0800 (PST) From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:18:20 -0500 Subject: eagleresearch.com Message-ID: <20000104.171823.-422719.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BXGlK3.0.Dc4.FCdSu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13507 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Greetings All, I cannot access eagleresearch.com for some reason or other. Whenever I try to, my computer just sits there with a "Connecting to site..." message. Any suggestions (other than government censorship)? -Tom Grimes ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 14:28:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA22267; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:28:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:28:46 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Re: GEET Engine at show Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 09:28:38 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <19991230.094548.-389713.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> <386B993C.6685E999@info2000.net> <3870C524.3D6C1583@info2000.net> <9o727so672968dafiq7uuhagvqbun37fnk@4ax.com> <38713713.B236608E@info2000.net> <387217CB.716DDA5@info2000.net> In-Reply-To: <387217CB.716DDA5@info2000.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA22195 Resent-Message-ID: <"xWmr13.0.lR5.UGdSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13508 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 04 Jan 2000 08:54:51 -0700, Ted wrote: >Robin, > >I couldn't smell anything in the exhaust but my sinuses aren't the best. >I can smell regular exhaust, though. Paul Pantone put a Kleenex tissue >over the exhaust for sever minutes and it did not discolor. He said >that they had the exhaust analyzed and it contained more oxygen than >ambient and a trace of helium. > >Interesting, huh? Maybe, air also contains a trace of helium, so a vague statement like this doesn't really tell us much. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 14:50:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA24082; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:49:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:49:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20000104224304.20439.qmail@nw179.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 4 Jan 00 17:43:04 EST From: Horace To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Re: Al catalysed H2O dissociation] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id OAA24044 Resent-Message-ID: <"adpdk2.0.8u5.IadSu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13509 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I don't know why not the Al(OH)3. The author writes: 2al+3h2o --> A12 + 3H2, and mentions Aluminum Oxide many times, so I didn't consider other compounds. Would the Al(OH)3 form ? What is more probable Al(OH)3 or Al2O3 ? What are the properties of the Al(OH)3 ? Interestingly, there is an unexplained reference to the acid in the article at http://layo.com/ Horace tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > Horace wrote: > > >The reaction can be written as: > > > >2(Al) + 3(H2O) --> Al2O3 + 3(H2) "it is not written correctly in the > article" > > Why wouldn't the aluminum form Al(OH)3? The reaction would then be: > > 2 Al (s) + 6 H2O (l) ---> 2 Al(OH)3 (s) + 3 H2 (g) > > This reaction would consume more H2O (twice as much, specifically) and > the aluminum product can be treated with acid to release the water used > (although it would drive up the cost of running). Also, don't catalysts > participate in a reaction without being changed (as the net result)? If > the Al is being consumed in the reaction, then it is a fuel (or reactant, > or reagent; whatever you wish to call it). > > -Tom Grimes > > P.S.: What is this Brown's Gas that keeps being mentioned? > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 15:30:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA02832; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:30:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:30:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20000104233444.14609.qmail@nwcst288.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 4 Jan 00 18:34:44 EST From: Horace To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [ What is this Brown's gas?] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id PAA02751 Resent-Message-ID: <"DCx2.0.5i.r9eSu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13510 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Brown's gas is a mixture of H2 and O2 gases in exact stochiometric proportion to form H20 when combusted. Horace P.S. The subject line in my previous post regarding making Hydrogen with water and Aluminum metal as described at http://layo.com/ ..incorectly uses the word "catalyzed", it was just a reply to the author's message. If the Aluminum is consumed than it is a fuel rather than a catalyzer (unless somthing other than Alumimum Oxide happens...) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 16:07:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA28005; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:07:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:07:17 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Re: Al catalysed H2O dissociation] Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 11:07:05 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <7i257skrb2mcmm42pvol50tqp87jvrkjrf@4ax.com> References: <20000104224304.20439.qmail@nw179.netaddress.usa.net> In-Reply-To: <20000104224304.20439.qmail@nw179.netaddress.usa.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA27963 Resent-Message-ID: <"Zka19.0.Or6.pieSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13511 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On 4 Jan 00 17:43:04 EST, Horace wrote: > >I don't know why not the Al(OH)3. The author writes: 2al+3h2o --> A12 + 3H2, >and mentions Aluminum Oxide many times, so I didn't consider other compounds. > >Would the Al(OH)3 form ? What is more probable Al(OH)3 or Al2O3 ? Whether or not it forms isn't really all that important. At worst, it means carrying around a bit more water than you intended. However that doesn't add a great deal of weight to the vehicle. The important thing is getting the Al number right, so that you can figure out whether or not this system is actually something special. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 16:08:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA28662; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:08:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:08:51 -0800 Message-ID: <18742501.947029960927.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:52:40 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey D Norris Reply-To: To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Water Arc,(was still going) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.176.107 Resent-Message-ID: <"W09Cc1.0.F_6.IkeSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13512 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:42:12 -0500, freenrg-l@eskimo.com wrote: > Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >You could calculate the wavelength based on speed and frequency, neither > of > >which however are known, until one actually understands what is > vibrating. > >(I.e. is it an electrical vibration, a sonic vibration, ....?) Also important to distinguish sound as a longitudinal vibration, and light as a transverse. > > Why not just set up an apparatus, similar to Michael Johnstons, that > consists of a long "water wire" (tube filled with water and an > electrolyte) and put voltage across it? Then you can either measure the > speed directly as the length of the "wire" divided by the delay between > putting the voltage across the wire and when current flows through it. > Or, you could use a logic circuit to compare the time it takes to "start" > the water against the time it takes in a metal wire of the same > cross-section and length. Since the disparity between the speed of sound > in water and the speed of light in water is so great, one should be able > to determine which one is in operation. > > By the way, someone mentioned the Drs. Graneau. I have read their book > "Newtonian Electrodynamics", and found it very interesting. Can someone from list supply availability of this book? However, in > the same post, the author said that they (the Drs.) found that no > electrolysis is conducted with the high-voltage arcs they used. I have done some experimentation on a possible similar effect, and been able to produce 5 mm arcs to a small water capacity on a wall voltage draw of around 12 watts shown by analogue meter. These are violet rapid discharges, somewhat like a mini tesla coil. Sometimes a yellow flash can be seen. The high voltage to produce these arcs is produced by the resonant rise of voltage obtained by resonating large coils in series res. at 60 hz. Using that method alone usually will only give a maximum discharge of 1 mm in the best conditions, so this method involved the use of a triple arc gap. Faraday supposedly did experiments in the early history of electricity where 3 arc gaps were used, perhaps some miles apart, and then voltage applied to the circuit. The arc in the middle apparently begins its existence before the gaps on the end, and this is explained as a capacitive effect. Perhaps someone on the list could comment further whether this was actually Faraday that did that exp. and maybe explain how that is possible. In my experiment the outer arc gaps allow the interior portion of the experiment to develope into a high frequency electric field phenomenon, without causing the exterior circuit of the induction coils to develope into a high freq., thus they stay at 60 hz, with only a small voltage spike once every cycle. The maximum amperage draw in that conduction is .2A or about 24 watts. The outer gaps also prevent the interior of the circuit from seldom appearing as a dead short to its source unobvious potentials. While ordinarily an arc represents discharging of of stored potentials, this shorting out function can be done in such a manner that the shorting doesnt necessarily appear so to its source input. Essentially a central capacity is connected to the inside arc bars of a double gap system employing 4 arc bars. This additionally is connected in parallel to a overload air gap discharge across a small water capacity. When the short condition is presented to this unobvious potential input only .25 ma draw from the wall can be inputed into the system, and no high voltage is created, only a resonant rise of amperage within the circuit. That is the purpose for the term "unobvious potential", if we try to use it in a obvious way, the potential disappears. In this way the capacity that enables the arcing across the water capacity can be rapidly replenished. What actually happens is that the power input is halved when the longer arc is produced from the system. When that arc assumes itself it consists of the middle gap in a triple gap system. In 95 I first used the same effect with a coil system in the middle where that coil systems length of wire would be a 1/4 wavelength of the oscillation, or so it was theorized. Using this kind of standing wave phenomenon attributed to the voltage rise in tesla coils, I was able to produce better discharges of about 1/3 of an inch, with branchings like violet miniature lightening,that would actually travel over the water and not simply arc to it. Hope to duplicate this longer discharge again soon. HDN Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 16:29:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA15647; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:28:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:28:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38728B5C.5E22@cyberportal.net> Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 19:07:56 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [ What is this Brown's gas?] References: <20000104233444.14609.qmail@nwcst288.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ueFYE2.0.Nq3.61fSu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13513 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Horace wrote: > > Brown's gas is a mixture of H2 and O2 gases in exact stochiometric proportion > to form H20 when combusted. So, what you are saying is that Brown's Gas is hydrogen peroxide? -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 16:54:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA14555; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:54:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:54:55 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Still going Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 11:15:28 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8s257s0hj3q3gn9gp5pja2fbusgnh1nh60@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA14412 Resent-Message-ID: <"S2h5m2.0.mY3.SPfSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13514 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:14:54 -0800 (PST), William Beaty wrote: >On Tue, 4 Jan 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >> I suspect that this would be the equivalent of placing extra plates in the >> electrolyte, i.e. one just creates extra cells, where the semi-permeable >> membrane forms an electrode. > >Nope, because "electrode" in this case means "metal/electrolyte >chemistry". A nonmetal barrier against bubbles is nothing like a >water/metal interface. Back before semi-permeable membranes, they used >"salt bridges", no? A few days ago, someone posted a message claiming that placing a piece of cardboard midway in a cell resulted in gas production at the cardboard. Granted, cardboard is a permeable, rather than semi-permeable membrane. [snip] >> Hmm...I think single atoms tend to "stick" to the metal of the electrode, >> until they meet another such, and form a molecule. So saturation tends to >> happen close to the electrodes first. > >Wouldn't "close" then be an atomic monolayer in contact with the metal? Yes. Bubbles also tend to form on the electrodes, and grow in place until they are big enough to break loose and rise to the surface. >If the H atoms (ions?) usually escape from the metal surface before >becoming H2, then there would be a macroscopic layer of h-saturated liquid >adjacent to the metal. Maybe I should stop guessing and go find a text on >this. You could also just make a simple cell, and look for yourself. [snip] >> It might be interesting to see if the resultant solution has oxidising >> capabilities. > >I think there was mention of this in Infinite Energy magazine: the water >adjacent to metal electrodes in a DC electrolysis cell supposedly has some >anomalous properties. I think they mentioned health effects and >bacteriocidal action. I would expect both of these, from the expected formation of a dilute H2O2 solution. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 17:10:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA22039; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:10:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:10:38 -0800 Message-ID: <5656824.947033459338.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:50:59 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey D Norris Reply-To: To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Still going Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.176.107 Resent-Message-ID: <"k55wR1.0.AO5.DefSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13515 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:14:54 -0800 (PST), freenrg-l@eskimo.com wrote: > > > I believe Wiseman uses pulsed DC rather than AC.(as reply) > > That could be. I was under the impression that the point of his > stacked-cell design was to allow direct connection to 120VAC with no huge > transformer, but with some sort of switching regulator. I don't know if > that regulator also rectifies. No he uses a series designed electrolysis cell, instead of the more conventional parallel. By using 60 cells in series at 120 AC input, he can pulse each cell at 2 volts, AFTER it has been rectified to DC. Commonsense considerations are that no loss of efficiency from use of a step down transformer are necessary because one isnt used in the series design. Electrolysisor itself represents a dead short to the power supply so capacitors are placed in the circuit before rectification to limit the amount of amperage that can go into the device by the capacitive reactance. I am unsure of the terminology involved with the heat loss on those capacitors, but I think it is minimal and has something to do with how lossy a cap is?(comment needed for clarification) What becomes problematic in the pulsing is that we assume that simply by removing the capacitors in the rectification diode system we assume this is the best method to pulse with, since it is those caps that smooth out the dc waveform into a dc ripple. What doesnt get considered is the actual geometric design of the electrolysisor is a factor, if it is cylindrical it may have more of an internal inductance, and in all cases the electrolysisor will have an internal capacitance, that may not reveal itself as a predominant factor in a dead short condition, but in a comparison of the amerage consumption of the exterior cap systems reactance compared to the consumption of both in series should reveal this hidden value. What that information tells us is that if the circuit has an internal C it may be desirable to produce a sharper pulse by adding a small L to counteract, but what is also often missed is that the calculation that must be done to determine the L value to resonate with the C value must now be made at at double the frequency. I understand others have made comments such as DC resonance doesnt exist, but I have noted a voltage rise in induction arcs using a 120 hz resonant capacity used as the filter in that dc rectified signal. Those induction arcs became more laser like, and in one case even produced a sound emission at a high auditory frequency. HDN > Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 17:13:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA22912; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:13:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:13:18 -0800 Message-ID: <20000105011846.6211.qmail@nwcst286.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 4 Jan 00 20:18:46 EST From: Horace To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Subject: Re: [What is this Brown's gas?] CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA22876 Resent-Message-ID: <"WSaVj2.0.vb5.jgfSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13516 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com No. Hydrogen oxide, water, H20 according to my words "... to form H20...": like this: 2H2 + O2 --> 2H20 + 120Mj/kg [of H2 gas] Horace P.S. What do you think of the Water / Aluminum method ? "Bruce A. Perreault" wrote: > Horace wrote: > > > > Brown's gas is a mixture of H2 and O2 gases in exact stochiometric proportion > > to form H20 when combusted. > > > So, what you are saying is that Brown's Gas is hydrogen peroxide? > > > > -Bruce A. Perreault ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 17:33:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA31118; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:33:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:33:06 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:27:07 -0500 Subject: Vital stats of "Newtonian Electrodynamics" Message-ID: <20000104.202709.-424311.2.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-13,15-16 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UVQ1d.0.7c7.HzfSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13517 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Harvey D. Norris wrote: >> By the way, someone mentioned the Drs. Graneau. I have read their book >> "Newtonian Electrodynamics", and found it very interesting. >Can someone from list supply availability of this book? Title: Newtonian Electrodynamics Authors: Peter Graneau, Neal Graneau ISBN: 981-02-2681-0(pbk) Publisher: World Scientific Suite 1B 1060 Main St River Edge, NJ 07661 I ordered my copy through Barnes & Noble. It took about 8 weeks and cost about $20. Good luck! -Tom Grimes ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 17:33:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA31280; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:33:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:33:14 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 19:51:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [ What is this Brown's gas?] Message-ID: <20000104.202709.-424311.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-14,18-19 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hwjLx.0.Se7.PzfSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13518 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 04 Jan 2000 19:07:56 -0500 "Bruce A. Perreault" writes: >Horace wrote: >> >> Brown's gas is a mixture of H2 and O2 gases in exact stochiometric >proportion >> to form H20 when combusted. > > >So, what you are saying is that Brown's Gas is hydrogen peroxide? > > > > -Bruce A. Perreault I know this question was directed at Horace, but even I can answer it. No, according to Horace's original post (listed above) the H2 to O2 ratio will be 2:1. Hydrogen peroxide is H2O2 and consists of 2 H atoms and 2 O atoms molecularly bonded, not a mixture of gases. -Tom Grimes ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 17:33:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA31354; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:33:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:33:19 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:18:48 -0500 Subject: Salt Bridges Message-ID: <20000104.202709.-424311.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,12-13 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Vt9Jf3.0.of7.UzfSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13519 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com William Beaty wrote: >Back before semi-permeable membranes, they used "salt bridges", no? A salt bridge is functionally equivalent to a semipermeable membrane. In the case of a 1972 chemistry textbook that I have (I couldn't find any reference to one in my 1957 one), a salt bridge is made of a tube containing agar-agar mixed with potassium chloride and it connects two beakers of electrolytes. A more up-to-date chemistry textbook (circa 1999) defines a salt bridge as "A device for maintaining the balance of ion charges in the compartments of an electrochemical cell." (Chemistry & Chemical Reactivity, Kotz & Treichel) So.... a semipermeable membrane (which allows only solvent molecules to pass through it) can be made from cardboard or wadded-up cotton. -Tom Grimes ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 17:37:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA02239; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:37:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:37:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3872A076.1989@cyberportal.net> Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 20:37:58 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: What is this Brown's gas? References: <20000104233444.14609.qmail@nwcst288.netaddress.usa.net> <38728B5C.5E22@cyberportal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vdwcH.0.rY.51gSu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13520 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > >So, what you are saying is that Brown's Gas is hydrogen peroxide? > [snip] > No Bruce, hydrogen peroxide is H2O2, i.e. H-O-O-H . He just talking about a > mixture of two parts hydrogen gas, and one part oxygen gas. I thought Brown's Gas was monoatomic? Can the H2O2 be made into hydrogen peroxide? Is hyrogen peroxide monoatomic hydrogen and oxygen? -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 18:01:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA19776; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:01:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:01:44 -0800 Message-ID: <3872A1CB.26F@cyberportal.net> Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 20:43:39 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [What is this Brown's gas?] References: <20000105011846.6211.qmail@nwcst286.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wLNb8.0.mq4.7OgSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13521 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Horace wrote: > <> > P.S. > What do you think of the Water/Aluminum method? It takes alot of electricity to process aluminum. The water/aluminum method is just another energy transport system. It seems to me that gasolene is alot more practical than the proposed method here. Isn't gasolene a form of stored hydrogen? Isn't it cheaper to obtain electricity straight from the grid than all the processes involved in the water/al method? -BAP From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 18:11:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA25209; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:11:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:11:14 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: What is this Brown's gas? Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 13:11:07 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000104233444.14609.qmail@nwcst288.netaddress.usa.net> <38728B5C.5E22@cyberportal.net> <3872A076.1989@cyberportal.net> In-Reply-To: <3872A076.1989@cyberportal.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA25151 Resent-Message-ID: <"_JOqI2.0.i96.1XgSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13522 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 04 Jan 2000 20:37:58 -0500, Bruce A. Perreault wrote: >Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> >> >So, what you are saying is that Brown's Gas is hydrogen peroxide? >> [snip] >> No Bruce, hydrogen peroxide is H2O2, i.e. H-O-O-H . He just talking about a >> mixture of two parts hydrogen gas, and one part oxygen gas. > > >I thought Brown's Gas was monoatomic? So people have said, though I doubt it. >Can the H2O2 be made into >hydrogen peroxide? H2O2 is the chemical formula for hydrogen peroxide (so it doesn't need to be "made into it", it already is. >Is hyrogen peroxide monoatomic hydrogen and oxygen? No. Hydrogen peroxide is a molecule comprising two atoms of oxygen, and two atoms of hydrogen. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 18:14:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA28684; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:14:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:14:47 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [What is this Brown's gas?] Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 13:14:41 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000105011846.6211.qmail@nwcst286.netaddress.usa.net> <3872A1CB.26F@cyberportal.net> In-Reply-To: <3872A1CB.26F@cyberportal.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA28625 Resent-Message-ID: <"OcgAu2.0.507.MagSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13523 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 04 Jan 2000 20:43:39 -0500, Bruce A. Perreault wrote: [snip] >It takes alot of electricity to process aluminum. Correct. >The water/aluminum method is just another energy >transport system. Correct. >It seems to me that gasolene is >alot more practical than the proposed method here. Maybe. >Isn't gasolene a form of stored hydrogen? Yes, but it's also a form of stored carbon, and that's where the problems arise. >Isn't it >cheaper to obtain electricity straight from the grid >than all the processes involved in the water/al method? As you point out above, it's another energy transport system. I.e. usable in cars, where grid connections aren't available. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 18:15:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA29361; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:15:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:15:41 -0800 Message-Id: <200001050220.AAA18763@bigbox.plug-in.com.br> From: "Marcelo Puhl" Organization: Computec Ltda To: interact@Keelynet.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com, energy21@listbot.com Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:15:53 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: BlackLight Power Inc. Reply-to: mark@plug-in.com.br Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Resent-Message-ID: <"rbbHr1.0.bA7.CbgSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13524 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com For you information : http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/9951/baard.shtml Marcelo Puhl mark@plug-in.com.br ------------------------------------------- Get paid to surf the WEB ! Ganhe dinheiro enquanto surfa na Internet ! http://alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=DTJ608 ------------------------------------------- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 18:21:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA00641; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:21:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:21:50 -0800 Message-Id: <200001050210.AAA16252@bigbox.plug-in.com.br> From: "Marcelo Puhl" Organization: Computec Ltda To: "Bruce A. Perreault" , freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:03:58 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Sparky Sweet Device Reply-to: mark@plug-in.com.br Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3870CFB5.61CA@cyberportal.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Resent-Message-ID: <"TrDR82.0.l9.zggSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13525 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > Sweet Device Theory: > > Do you remember the type of magnets that were used in the Sweet device? > They were made out of a magnetized ferroelectric ceramic (barium > titanate). I was thinking they were BaFe ones. > What would you have to do to make the magnetic field of this type of > magnet oscillate? Come on people, this is an easy one. :) Don't have a clue ... > The conditioning that Sparky may have used is called "poling." > > http://www.physikinstrumente.com/tutorial/4_15.html#material > > It is in my humble opinion that the conditioning is not what effected > the output frequency, it was the coil was used between the two opposing > magnets that determined the operating frequency. > Or maybe the excitation signal. > What Sparky had was a neet way to transform a batteries low volt to a > higher voltage to light up light-bulbs and power motors that required a higher > voltage. > This was done by pulsing battery current through a coil that was > sandwiched between his unique piezoelectric ceramic opposing magnets. > By the way, I suspect that Searl's developed this type of magnet too. > > I challenge anyone this year to prove me wrong on this. If I am wrong I > will have to hit myself on the back with a big fish. If I am right then I get > a big bozo button. :) > How could we condition the magnets as you believe it is made ? Thanks. Marcelo Puhl mark@plug-in.com.br ------------------------------------------- Get paid to surf the WEB ! Ganhe dinheiro enquanto surfa na Internet ! http://alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=DTJ608 ------------------------------------------- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 18:23:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA02303; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:23:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:23:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3872AB64.76D7@cyberportal.net> Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 21:24:36 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: What is this Brown's gas? References: <20000104233444.14609.qmail@nwcst288.netaddress.usa.net> <38728B5C.5E22@cyberportal.net> <3872A076.1989@cyberportal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2qBk11.0.oZ.aigSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13526 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > > >Can the H2O2 be made into > >hydrogen peroxide? > > H2O2 is the chemical formula for hydrogen peroxide (so it doesn't need to be > "made into it", it already is. I ment to say H2:O2 > > >Is hyrogen peroxide monoatomic hydrogen and oxygen? > > No. Hydrogen peroxide is a molecule comprising two atoms of oxygen, and two > atoms of hydrogen. I take it then Hydrogen and Oxygen can not exist in the monoatomic state in H2O? -BAP From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 18:29:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA08124; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:29:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:29:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3872AA76.3B2D@cyberportal.net> Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 21:20:38 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sparky Sweet Device References: <200001050210.AAA16252@bigbox.plug-in.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qR_j7.0.r-1.FogSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13527 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Marcelo, Put one of these magnets into a hot oil bath. Add about 10k volts to a negative and positive electrode. Apply the voltage while the bath is cooling. What you will end up with is a piezo/magnetic ceramic. Apply a pulsating voltage to electrodes placed where the magnet had been poled and you have yourself an oscillating magetic field. -Bruce A. Perreault Marcelo Puhl wrote: > > > Sweet Device Theory: > > > > Do you remember the type of magnets that were used in the Sweet device? > > They were made out of a magnetized ferroelectric ceramic (barium > > titanate). > > I was thinking they were BaFe ones. > > > What would you have to do to make the magnetic field of this type of > > magnet oscillate? Come on people, this is an easy one. :) > > Don't have a clue ... > > > The conditioning that Sparky may have used is called "poling." > > > > http://www.physikinstrumente.com/tutorial/4_15.html#material > > > > It is in my humble opinion that the conditioning is not what effected > > the output frequency, it was the coil was used between the two opposing > > magnets that determined the operating frequency. > > > > Or maybe the excitation signal. > > > What Sparky had was a neet way to transform a batteries low volt to a > > higher voltage to light up light-bulbs and power motors that required a higher > > voltage. > > This was done by pulsing battery current through a coil that was > > sandwiched between his unique piezoelectric ceramic opposing magnets. > > By the way, I suspect that Searl's developed this type of magnet too. > > > > I challenge anyone this year to prove me wrong on this. If I am wrong I > > will have to hit myself on the back with a big fish. If I am right then I get > > a big bozo button. :) > > > > How could we condition the magnets as you believe it is made ? > > Thanks. > > Marcelo Puhl > mark@plug-in.com.br > ------------------------------------------- > Get paid to surf the WEB ! > Ganhe dinheiro enquanto surfa na Internet ! > http://alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=DTJ608 > ------------------------------------------- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 18:39:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA13928; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:39:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:39:31 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:16:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Few: Re: Still going Message-ID: <20000104.171823.-422719.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-19,26-32,34,36-38,42-46,48-51,54-57,59,61,63,65-72,74-77,79-91,93-99 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jvDOh.0.MP3.ZxgSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13528 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 4 Jan 2000 13:17:32 -0800 "Fred Epps" writes: >Hi Tom, >> >> By the way, someone mentioned the Drs. Graneau. I have >> read their book >> "Newtonian Electrodynamics", and found it very interesting. >However, in >> the same post, the author said that they (the Drs.) found that no >> electrolysis is conducted with the high-voltage arcs they used. >They >> used a large, high voltage capacitor bank with an inductor, thus >creating >> a circuit that delivered its power at resonance between the >capacitance >> and the inductance. > >No, actually it was a high current setup with inductance and oscillation >reduced as much as possible. With high inductance it won't work. Too >much energy is dissipated that way. I never said it was high inductance. It turns out, though, that I was mistaken about them using any inductor at all. I misread a statement: they used a coil to measure the current flow. Incidentally, the oscilliscope diagrams in "Newtonian Electrodynamics" show that the current was "ringing" (indicating AC; see figure 6.3). I guess this may be partially due to the small amount of inductance present in all real wires. >> I think it has been sufficiently established that AC >> only produces electrolysis at certain frequencies, and the chance that >> the Drs. circuit was tuned to one of them is very small. > >They were not trying to electrolyze water. They discovered this effect >while experimenting with longitudinal Ampere forces in currents. Water was >never electrolysed during these tests, and the water didn't even get hot. >All the energy was kinetic, and there was a lot of it :-) When did I say that it was their intention to perform electrolysis? Indeed, I did not. My intention was to explain why the Drs. didn't see any electrolysis, while I did, even though I was trying to duplicate their experiments. >>When I tried to >> reproduce their saltwater-related experiments, >They did not use salt water. The effect drops the more electrolytes >are in the water. Any electrolysis dissipates the energy. The purer the water >the more power is needed to cause the effect, but the bang is much >bigger. Yes, they did use salt water for some of their experiments. See pages 198 to 213 of "Newtonian Electrodynamics". They also used pure water, and found it as you said. >>I did observe electrolysis >> (or at least a phenomena I attributed to electrolysis). Specifically, >> when I put one high voltage lead at the bottom of a shallow dish filled >> with saltwater and touched the other to the surface above it, I not only >> observed the cool mist that is thrown up, but the arc burned larger and >> hotter. I assume that this was due to the H2 (g) produced by very rapid >> electrolysis being ignited by the arc. The high voltage cicuit I used >> was simply a transformer from a microwave that was rectified by diodes >> and smoothed a bit with a small capacitor. > >What you are doing is interesting, but it is not related to the Graneau >tests. This was as close as I could get to reproducing their experiment. So it was related. > They were all very short, noninductive arcs through pure water. That's true for the most part, but they did experiment with mercury fountains. >(Some tests were done with salt water but these were not as effective). Granted. But this statement contradicts your earlier one. > I suggest you find the original papers and read them. I don't have the >references right here, but I will let them for you if you want. It seems that you are the one who should go back and read them! -Tom Grimes P.S.: Fred Epps was the one who mentioned Peter Graneau (on 1/3/00). Sorry I didn't say so on my first post. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 4 20:02:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA03741; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:01:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:01:53 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: What is this Brown's gas? Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 15:01:11 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000104233444.14609.qmail@nwcst288.netaddress.usa.net> <38728B5C.5E22@cyberportal.net> <3872A076.1989@cyberportal.net> <3872AB64.76D7@cyberportal.net> In-Reply-To: <3872AB64.76D7@cyberportal.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id UAA03715 Resent-Message-ID: <"IzaGr3.0.Lw.k8iSu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13529 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 04 Jan 2000 21:24:36 -0500, Bruce A. Perreault wrote: [snip] >I take it then Hydrogen and Oxygen can not exist in the monoatomic state >in H2O? They can, and do, during electrolysis, but only for a very short time until two atom pair up to form a molecule. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 01:28:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA15954; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:27:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 01:27:57 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Water Arc,(was still going) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 20:27:52 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <18742501.947029960927.JavaMail.imail@bronty> In-Reply-To: <18742501.947029960927.JavaMail.imail@bronty> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA15929 Resent-Message-ID: <"n7HTj.0.Bv3.SwmSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13530 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:52:40 -0800 (PST), Harvey D Norris wrote: [snip] >Also important to distinguish sound as a longitudinal vibration, and light >as a transverse. True, longitudinal electromagnetic may also exist, even though it isn't currently recognised by academia. [snip] > I have done some experimentation on a possible similar effect, and been >able to produce 5 mm arcs to a small water capacity on a wall voltage draw >of around 12 watts shown by analogue meter. These are violet rapid Was "violet" correct (colour), or did you mean violent? [snip] >appearing as a dead short to its source unobvious potentials. While >ordinarily an arc represents discharging of of stored potentials, this >shorting out function can be done in such a manner that the shorting doesnt >necessarily appear so to its source input. Essentially a central capacity is A schematic would be really helpful here. [snip] >phenomenon attributed to the voltage rise in tesla coils, I was able to >produce better discharges of about 1/3 of an inch, with branchings like >violet miniature lightening,that would actually travel over the water and >not simply arc to it. Hope to duplicate this longer discharge again soon. [snip] Did you notice anything exceptional when it did arc to the water? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 03:11:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA29183; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 03:11:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 03:11:04 -0800 Message-ID: <31851254.947070443338.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 03:07:23 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey D Norris Reply-To: To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Water Arc,(was still going) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.178.229 Resent-Message-ID: <"CaeRq2.0.u77.7RoSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13531 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Wed, 05 Jan 2000 20:27:52 +1100, freenrg-l@eskimo.com wrote: > On Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:52:40 -0800 (PST), Harvey D Norris wrote: > [snip] > >Also important to distinguish sound as a longitudinal vibration, and light > >as a transverse. > > True, longitudinal electromagnetic may also exist, even though it isn't > currently recognised by academia. I have consructed E tuning forks attached to neodyminum/iron/boron- alloy magnets at poles as sensitive coherer to indicate vibration at zones in that prognosis of scalar waves. Frankly I understand one circumstance, an abscense of most information,except my own. I thought I could rely on the evidence that existed concerning Tom Bearden, that book aint out there now, all the people that are supposed to be doing to their job are not, they think they are secret agent 007 and thats a why I can simply say it and it will be accepted as Gospel. > [snip] > > I have done some experimentation on a possible similar effect, and been > >able to produce 5 mm arcs to a small water capacity on a wall voltage draw > >of around 12 watts shown by analogue meter. These are violet rapid > > Was "violet" correct (colour), or did you mean violent? Of course both conceptions are accurate, The discharges convey violence as does lightening. > [snip] > >appearing as a dead short to its source unobvious potentials. While > >ordinarily an arc represents discharging of of stored potentials, this > >shorting out function can be done in such a manner that the shorting doesnt > >necessarily appear so to its source input. Essentially a central capacity is > > A schematic would be really helpful here. 3rd diagram try; April 30,99 on freenrg archives under H Norris > [snip] > >phenomenon attributed to the voltage rise in tesla coils, I was able to > >produce better discharges of about 1/3 of an inch, with branchings like > >violet miniature lightening,that would actually travel over the water and > >not simply arc to it. Hope to duplicate this longer discharge again soon. > [snip] > Did you notice anything exceptional when it did arc to the water? Demonstrated to neighbor today how using a eye dropper to raise the water level in the small capacity of 10 pf to the arcing point,that yellow discharge flashes become present. The contrast between the violet and yellow is very visual. Production of ozone most severe, after several minutes room is filled,neighbor recently had eye surgery and said it bothered eyes from ozone level. Camera records analomies, not simply different sweep rate interaction. Very powerful phenomenon. HDN Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 05:44:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA21649; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 05:44:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 05:44:10 -0800 From: dave.tingley@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 19:58:33 -0500 Subject: Re: eagleresearch.com Message-ID: <20000105.084454.216.4.dave.tingley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=--__JNP_000_4874.0967.187d X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-26,29,29-32767 X-Juno-Att: 1 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"vX7wZ3.0.5I5.ggqSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13532 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_4874.0967.187d Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit try http://www.eagle-research.com Dave On Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:18:20 -0500 tgrimes1@juno.com writes: > Greetings All, > > I cannot access eagleresearch.com for some reason or other. > Whenever I try to, my computer just sits there with a "Connecting > to site..." message. Any suggestions (other than government > censorship)? > > -Tom Grimes > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE > Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE > software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ================================================ dave.tingley@juno.com http://dave_tingley.tripod.com "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." --Thomas Jefferson ----__JNP_000_4874.0967.187d Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Eagle-Research practical energy solutions...today!.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 W0ludGVybmV0U2hvcnRjdXRdClVSTD1odHRwOi8vd3d3LmVhZ2xlLXJlc2VhcmNoLmNvbS8K ----__JNP_000_4874.0967.187d-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 06:32:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA05256; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 06:32:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 06:32:00 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:26:23 -0500 Subject: Re: eagleresearch.com Message-ID: <20000105.092624.-522873.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"87USG2.0.0I1.WNrSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13533 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dave Tingley, Thanks for the link, I'll try it as soon as I can. -Tom Grimes tgrimes1@juno.com hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 06:49:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA13224; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 06:49:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 06:49:38 -0800 From: Charlie Hodgson Reply-To: Charlie_Hodgson@s2systems.com Organization: Society for Real Time To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net, "Bruce A. Perreault" , freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [What is this Brown's gas?] Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:18:07 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <20000105011846.6211.qmail@nwcst286.netaddress.usa.net> <3872A1CB.26F@cyberportal.net> In-Reply-To: <3872A1CB.26F@cyberportal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00010509595104.07752@cougar> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA13197 Resent-Message-ID: <"OFmQ63.0.WE3.2erSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13534 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 04 Jan 2000, Bruce A. Perreault wrote: > Horace wrote: > > What do you think of the Water/Aluminum method? > > > It takes alot of electricity to process aluminum. > The water/aluminum method is just another energy > transport system. It seems to me that gasolene is > alot more practical than the proposed method here. > Isn't gasolene a form of stored hydrogen? Isn't it > cheaper to obtain electricity straight from the grid > than all the processes involved in the water/al method? I'm not certain if using electricity straight off the grid is more economical than producing it on demand via a Cornish-type device. (as found on Layo.com) Mexico is a big (or used to be) producer of Aluminum due to thier abundant hydroelectric power. One uses the Hall process to convert Aluminum Oxide to Aluminum, which basically uses electricity to drive off the oxygen. Then you oxidize the Aluminum to 'extract' electricity and return the aluminum oxide for reprocessing. There are huge losses transporting power on the grid, and I see no reason why the ineficiencies of the Hall-Cornish cycle would neccesarilly be greater than long distance hauling on the grid. The problem with gasoline is that there is no economical way re-attach hydrogen to carbon (or to capture the carbon for that matter) so to have a renewable cycle. The Cornish method is one way to do it. There are redox cycles that can be used, such as the Sodium hydroxide/Sodium Hydride cycle. IMHO, I do think the Cornish device is a little too simplistic due problems of collecting/recycling the aluminum oxide and having to stop for refueling. When I looked into this last summer I devised a multi-cell fuel-cell arrangement, not too unlike water filters. Charlie > > > -BAP -- Who is Don Alphonso, and what's all this about tweezers? From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 07:56:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA17364; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:54:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:54:55 -0800 (PST) From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:48:01 -0500 Subject: Re: [What is this Brown's gas?] Message-ID: <20000105.104803.-491701.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4,6-7,12-15,29-34 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Iuek11.0.9F4.BbsSu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13535 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Charlie Hodgson wrote: >IMHO, I do think the Cornish device is a little too simplistic due >problems of collecting/recycling the aluminum oxide and having >to stop for refueling. If Al(OH)3 is formed, rather than Al2O3, then it would be a simple matter to recycle the waste. Consider: Al(OH)3 (s) + 3 HCl (aq) ----> AlCl3 (aq) + 3 H2O (l) If the H2O is extracted (i.e., boiled away using the heat produced by combustion) and returned to the storage tank for use with the propulsion system, then the AlCl3 (in a concentrated aqueous solution) can easily be returned to a recycling center and reconverted to Al (s) and HCl (g or aq) by this reaction: 2 AlCl3 --(strong oxidizing agent)--> 2 Al (s) + 3 Cl2 (g) Cl2 (g) + H2 (g) ----> 2 HCl (g) + lots of energy I wonder if the recycling system can be integrated with the propulsion system. If AlCl3 could be easily broken down by electrolysis, rather than just consuming an oxidizer, then you could run a closed cycle pretty easily. For example, collect and condense the products of combustion in an electrolysis cell. The products of this cell would be Al, H2O, and Cl2. If the Cl2 is returned to the combustion chamber, then it would combine (exothermically) with the H2 produced by the propulsion reaction. The HCl gas produced would, if given the chance, react with the Al(OH)3, dissolving it in the waste-water and prevented clogged tubes as well as preparing it for the recycling cell. Now, I know that there will be energy losses (heat from the combustion chamber, etc.), but if used in conjuction with a purely electric system (in an electric car, for example) then the product would probably be a hybrid-car that runs cleaner than currently available gasoline engines. -Tom Grimes tgrimes1@juno.com hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 13:02:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA08705; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:02:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:02:19 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Water Arc,(was still going) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 08:00:46 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <31851254.947070443338.JavaMail.imail@bronty> In-Reply-To: <31851254.947070443338.JavaMail.imail@bronty> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id NAA08682 Resent-Message-ID: <"IBq3E2.0.w72.P5xSu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13536 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Wed, 5 Jan 2000 03:07:23 -0800 (PST), Harvey D Norris wrote: [snip] >Demonstrated to neighbor today how using a eye dropper to raise the water >level in the small capacity of 10 pf to the arcing point,that yellow >discharge flashes become present. The contrast between the violet and yellow >is very visual. Production of ozone most severe, after several minutes room >is filled,neighbor recently had eye surgery and said it bothered eyes from >ozone level. Camera records analomies, not simply different sweep rate >interaction. Very powerful phenomenon. >HDN I'll retrieve the archive later. In the mean time, you might like to see if the violet arc will pass to water, through the sides of a thin glass (or plastic?) vessel. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 5 13:59:04 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA17806; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:58:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:58:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3873BAF4.41AA@cyberportal.net> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 16:43:16 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nu Energy Horizons CC: freenrg-L@eskimo.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com Subject: Re: Sparky Sweet Device References: <56.56e82748.25a50f36@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VXUEd2.0.7M4.RwxSu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13537 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com BART2SUE@aol.com wrote: > > Hey Bruce, is this the break through that you had made on your unit? I just > remembered the Sweet device, it was also a radiant energy tap was it not? No this is not the breakthrough. It is only a theory on how the Sweet device could work. I have not tried it as I have do not have any spare time. -BAP From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 10:37:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA16176; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:37:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:37:14 -0800 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <6d.6d2979b5.25a63acc@aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:37:00 EST Subject: Oscilloscope on PC? To: energy21@listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Resent-Message-ID: <"y-YYZ1.0.ey3.P3ETu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13538 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Does anyone know of hardware/software that can will allow your personal computer to function as an oscilloscope? I need it yesterday. Thanks, Butch LaFonte From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 10:45:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA20359; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:45:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:45:24 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Oscilloscope on PC? Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:55:30 -0500 Message-ID: <20000106185530218.AAA146@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"lQQaK.0.0-4.4BETu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13539 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Butch writes: Radio Shack had one, but I'm not sure it is being offered anymore. I've got one actually, but it is quite limited. I'll dig up the specs, and any otherinfo. >Does anyone know of hardware/software that can will allow your personal >computer to function as an oscilloscope? >I need it yesterday. >Thanks, >Butch LaFonte Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 11:06:10 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA28612; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:06:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:06:08 -0800 From: DEADWATE@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:05:58 EST Subject: Re: Oscilloscope on PC? To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 243 Resent-Message-ID: <"JPH7X1.0.s-6.VUETu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13540 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com There is one available at http://M.F.Hajer@WbMT.TUDelft.nl but for some reason I cannot get to that address. His snail mail address is M.F.Hajer Rosariumlaan 27 3972 GE Driebergen The Netherlands Offers a shareware trial and a full version for $10 U.S. cash Good luck! deadwate From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 11:30:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA06867; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:30:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:30:04 -0800 Message-ID: <3874ED4A.964E593D@datacomm.ch> Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 20:30:18 +0100 From: Felix Meyer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Oscilloscope on PC? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kBxPc3.0.9h1.xqETu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13541 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Butch, at http://polly.phys.msu.su/~zeld/oscill.html you will find an PC-Oscilloscope with runs on a soundcard and performs as dual trace oscilloscope at sound frequencies up to 20 kKhz. I tried it and I think its an excellent piece of software - all for free - !!! good luck Felix From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 12:21:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA18382; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:20:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:20:37 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Oscilloscope on PC? Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:30:25 -0500 Message-ID: <20000106203025234.AAA302@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"WRlpY1.0.1V4.IaFTu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13542 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Butch, I just went to the Radioshack homepage below and typed in oscilloscope in the advanced search box. It's not the model that I have which is, I think, Cat.#: 910-4905, but Cat.#: 910-4483 looks a lot better. http://www.radioshack.com/ You might try searching some of the other electronic instrument houses as well, such as Fluke, etc.. Good Luck Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 12:49:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA21422; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:49:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:49:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3874FF70.8EE24D34@datacomm.ch> Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 21:47:44 +0100 From: Felix Meyer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Oscilloscope on PC? References: <20000106203025234.AAA302@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7nJl93.0.ME5.0_FTu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13543 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com HLafonte@aol.com schrieb: > > Felix, > What do I need in the way of hareware, I have no scope at all at this time. > Do I need to have an oscilloscope to start with? > Thanks, > Butch all you need is a PC (486 or better a Pentium) with a 16 bit sound card (sound-blaster compatible), nearly all cards work. The line input or Mic-Input of the sound card works as input to the oscilloscope. The program can be downloaded from the indicated url-direction. Then read the installation instruction. The program comes as osc251.zip unzip the program and copy all in a new directory e.g. c:\pcosci and then execute the file winscope.exe it runs under Windows 95 and Windows 98. It's a simple task. PS: Do not overload the sound card input, you can destroy the card by applying more the 1 volt - use a pot.meter voltage divider at input if you have higher voltages. Regards Felix From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 13:17:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA30671; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:16:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:16:53 -0800 From: Keasy@aol.com Message-ID: <2.217c89d.25a66040@aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:16:48 EST Subject: Re: Oscilloscope on PC? To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Resent-Message-ID: <"uyXTB2.0.2V7.5PGTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13544 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com In a message dated 1/6/00 10:40:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, HLafonte@aol.com writes: > Does anyone know of hardware/software that can will allow your personal > computer to function as an oscilloscope? > I need it yesterday. > Thanks, > Butch LaFonte National Instruments makes a complete and very capable (I have been led to believe) system: software/hardware. http://www.ni.com/ They call it Labview. Unfortunately, it is not particularly inexpensive. Ken From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 13:34:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06953; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:34:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:34:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3873B6E1.395BE78@sinectis.com.ar> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 18:25:56 -0300 From: Juan de la Cruz Barrios X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [es] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: es MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Oscilloscope on PC? References: <20000106203025234.AAA302@mail.lcia.com@lizard> <3874FF70.8EE24D34@datacomm.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lq9In3.0.Wi1.wfGTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13545 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hello Butch and all, I'll recommend to put two diodes in antiparalel mode and a voltage divisor in the mic input to safeguard this input as you can destroy it very easy... And I think you will prefer buy a real scope as I know at least two motherboard death for use that kind of experimental scopes... (helped by a unscrupulous guy of course ;-) Juan Felix Meyer escribió: > HLafonte@aol.com schrieb: > > > > Felix, > > What do I need in the way of hareware, I have no scope at all at this time. > > Do I need to have an oscilloscope to start with? > > Thanks, > > Butch > > all you need is a PC (486 or better a Pentium) > with a 16 bit sound card (sound-blaster compatible), > nearly all cards work. > The line input or Mic-Input of the sound card > works as input to the oscilloscope. > The program can be downloaded from the > indicated url-direction. > Then read the installation instruction. > > The program comes as osc251.zip > > unzip the program and copy all in a new directory > e.g. c:\pcosci > > and then execute the file winscope.exe > > it runs under Windows 95 and Windows 98. > > It's a simple task. > > PS: Do not overload the sound card input, > you can destroy the card by applying more the > 1 volt - use a pot.meter voltage divider > at input if you have higher voltages. > > Regards > Felix From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 15:08:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA13654; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:07:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:07:24 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Oscilloscope on PC? Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 18:17:25 -0500 Message-ID: <20000106231725234.AAA216@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"_Z6wV.0.EL3.f0ITu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13546 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Felix writes: >it runs under Windows 95 and Windows 98. > >It's a simple task. > >PS: Do not overload the sound card input, >you can destroy the card by applying more the >1 volt - use a pot.meter voltage divider >at input if you have higher voltages. > >Regards > Felix The webpage also has a Win3.1 version if that is an issue, I just downloaded it.. The whole thing looks pretty limited, but Harvey is such a creative person, that he might be able make the thing actually useful. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 20:02:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA23025; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:02:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 20:02:03 -0800 Message-ID: <008401bf58c3$e8872060$51e135ca@xplornote> From: "xplorer" To: Subject: Re: Oscilloscope on PC? Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:51:34 +0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"hYu-c2.0.gd5.wKMTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13547 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com National Instruments: (I got relatives working there, Austin Texas) Their stuff is very nice, very expensive, but also very top-heavy. It's not something you just plug in and use. They have standardized around the GPIB standard, which means you need adapter/drivers and the whole thing gets to become too complicated for anything less than indu$trial u$e. If you want something quick, there are a number of parallel-port scopes out there, cost is 150 to 500 USD, plug in, load software, connect probes: go. You might best find a way to opto-isolate the probes, though, if you use inductances\hi-volts\hi-amps. Expect 20 MHz minimum, up to 200 MHz storage capability. Velleman makes a decent dual probe kit in this price range - I put one together a few years ago in only a few hours (worked right away, no problems) The sound card scope would be useful for low-frequency work, and if the computer is not a laptop the toasting the input is no big deal - just make sure you've got spare sound boards or the chips/components that make up the toasted input. (Have money to burn ? I can help ;<) opto-isolating the probes is the way to go if you do any of this: put an op-amp to driving an analog opto-isolator and another op-amp on a (calibrate-able) resistor bridge from the opto. Before they had the parallel-port scopes, I built one using a hi-speed a/d converter and programmed in assembly to use my parallel port. Cheap and easy to get it to do what I needed. Nowadays, the cost of time is prohibitive - it's much cheaper just to buy the prebuilt item. The value is better for those port-scopes, as well, because the cost of a good bench-style storage scope is simply too high in comparison. Good Luck composed and sent from Paul E. Anderson's computer (with or without my permission) ============================== ICQ 52281118 -----Original Message----- From: Keasy@aol.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: 2000 January 07, Friday 04:19 Subject: Re: Oscilloscope on PC? |In a message dated 1/6/00 10:40:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, HLafonte@aol.com |writes: | |> Does anyone know of hardware/software that can will allow your personal |> computer to function as an oscilloscope? |> I need it yesterday. |> Thanks, |> Butch LaFonte | |National Instruments makes a complete and very capable (I have been led to |believe) system: software/hardware. http://www.ni.com/ They call it |Labview. Unfortunately, it is not particularly inexpensive. | | Ken | | From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 21:38:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA20867; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:38:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:38:42 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [What is this Brown's gas?] Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 16:38:37 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <6qua7ssu20gch32fb9l95mbhu21hgu8bhc@4ax.com> References: <20000105.104803.-491701.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> In-Reply-To: <20000105.104803.-491701.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA20844 Resent-Message-ID: <"2tmnw2.0.u55.YlNTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13548 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:48:01 -0500, tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: [snip] > If Al(OH)3 is formed, rather than Al2O3, then it would be a simple >matter to recycle the waste. Consider: Either the oxide or the hydroxide shouldn't be a problem, as they can both go straight back to the Al manufacturer. This is because bauxite (aluminium ore) is primarily Al2O3 anyway. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 6 22:36:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA08223; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 22:36:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 22:36:25 -0800 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <8c.8c2558a5.25a6e360@aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 01:36:16 EST Subject: Could this be possible? To: energy21@listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_8c.8c2558a5.25a6e360_boundary" X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Resent-Message-ID: <"TsCH22.0.N02.fbOTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13549 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com --part1_8c.8c2558a5.25a6e360_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I am working (build and test) on a major overunity project right now, but I had this other question on my mind and if I can find extra time will test it out. First let me know what you think. > We know that we can run current in opposite directions thru two wires placed side by side in a coil configuration and the magnetic fields cancel each other out, but the current still flows in the wires. > Now we also know that in a transformer that the flux (except for leakage flux) stays in the iron core if it's not past saturation. This flux, even though it is in the iron, and not outside the iron, it induces a current in the coil windings. > Now what if we put the two iron cores next to each other, their flux would be going in opposite directions like the current in a bifilar coil. > Now if we put one layer of square magnet wire around each core and placed the coils close to each other so that their magnetic fields cancel each out, then the current would still flow as in the bifilar coil but as the magnet rotor approached the two side by side iron cores, their would be no change in the iron core flux due to the flux being produced by the coils cancel each other out. Now the rotor feels no additional drag or repulsion as it leaves or approaches the stator. But voltage/current is still produced by the coils. >Flux flows in opposite directions in the core of transformers and still produces voltage/current. Look at attached drawing to better see what I'm talking about. 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References: <20000106203025234.AAA302@mail.lcia.com@lizard> <3874FF70.8EE24D34@datacomm.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Z7MLo1.0.od5.kTRTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13550 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > HLafonte@aol.com schrieb: > > > > Felix, > > What do I need in the way of hareware, I have no scope at all at this time. > > Do I need to have an oscilloscope to start with? > > Thanks, > > Butch > Felix PC - OSCILLOSCOPE ================= Here you find a more sophisticated program ANALYZER 2000 which makes a Scope with trigger, high resolution, time and FFT display, sine wave generator and much more ... at http://members.aol.com/btf1 for FREE DOWNLOAD (full functional evaluation version) Features: · Fast spectral analysis with FFT Display for time and frequency variant signals · Using inexpensive PC sound card, no additional hardware needed · Time analysis with oscilloscope and envelope Display · Sonagraphic Analysis with waterfall display · Measurement tools like markers, frequency rulers, level rulers, time rulers · Easy determination of THD, S/N and VCO phase noise · Built-in testgenerator for sinewave and/or noise stimulation (full duplex mode) · Multi channel operation · Multi morse decoder · Simultaneous recording directly from PC sound card to standard wave file · Snapshot functionality (20 seconds post trigger memory) · Analyzing of standard wave files or post trigger memory in offline mode · Client-Server architecture · Flexibel concept for adapting various DSP Hardware · Running on MS-Windows-NT™ or MS-Windows95™ and W98 Available option: · TCP/IP server for remote controlled operation (via LAN/WAN) with multi client capability System requirements: 80486DX 100 MHz, Pentium 166 MHz preferred Windows95 or Windows NT 4.0 (not tested under Windows NT 3.51) 16 bit sound card with Windows95 or Windows NT 4.0 drivers 256 color graphics adapter 800 x 600 pixel resolution (VESA local bus or PCI) regards Felix From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 07:33:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA06417; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 07:33:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 07:33:39 -0800 From: Charlie Hodgson Reply-To: Charlie_Hodgson@s2systems.com Organization: Society for Real Time To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, tgrimes1@juno.com Subject: Re: [What is this Brown's gas?] Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:25:36 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <20000105.104803.-491701.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> In-Reply-To: <20000105.104803.-491701.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00010710435801.16433@cougar> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA06396 Resent-Message-ID: <"HGp222.0.Aa1.ITWTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13551 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Wed, 05 Jan 2000, tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > Charlie Hodgson wrote: > >IMHO, I do think the Cornish device is a little too simplistic due > >problems of collecting/recycling the aluminum oxide and having > >to stop for refueling. > > If Al(OH)3 is formed, rather than Al2O3, then it would be a simple > matter to recycle the waste. Consider: My comments where aimed more at the physical configuration of the device and the protocol one would need to follow to dispose of the alumina. If in a fuel cell configuration then collection of the 'waste' products is a simple matter. Recycling the alumina via the Hall process is very straight forward, consumables are electricity and some carbon. I don't know about your approach using HCL. The Bayer process, used to extract alumina from bauxite relies on caustic soda (sodium hydroxide). This may be due to the fact that aumina disolves in it and iron oxides (one of the primary componants of bauxite) don't. In any case, the system basically operates as transport system and by integrating the recylcing system we loose economies of scale. On this line of thinking, does anyone know the cost per kWH for producing hydro-electric power? I know what I pay for it, but that includes the transmission costs. Charlie --- Who is Don Alphonso, and what's all this about tweezers? From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 10:33:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA07336; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:33:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:33:23 -0800 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 13:33:11 EST Subject: Wires put in figure 8 for bifilar effect To: energy21@listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Resent-Message-ID: <"2tSi1.0.To1.p5ZTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13552 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi all, I made a mistake on the layout drawing posted yesterday. The two wire coils would need to be interwoven in a figure eight fashion to get a bifilar coil effect. I will post drawing today to show the layout. Thanks, Butch From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 11:57:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA06602; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 11:57:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 11:57:08 -0800 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 19:55:43 +0000 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Chris Morriss Subject: Re: Oscilloscope on PC? In-Reply-To: <20000106203025234.AAA302@mail.lcia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Trial Version 3.03a Resent-Message-ID: <"_RyBk1.0.3d1.JKaTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13553 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com In message <20000106203025234.AAA302@mail.lcia.com>, Michael T Huffman writes >Hi Butch, > >I just went to the Radioshack homepage below and typed in oscilloscope in >the advanced search box. It's not the model that I have which is, I think, >Cat.#: 910-4905, but Cat.#: 910-4483 looks a lot better. > >http://www.radioshack.com/ > >You might try searching some of the other electronic instrument houses as >well, such as Fluke, etc.. > >Good Luck > >Knuke > In the UK there's a company called Pico Technology who make 'scope and data-logger units for the PC, connecting via a parallel port. I use their dual-channel 12-bit ADC called the ADC-100 which together with the company's windows s/w makes a good scope up to a maximum sample rate of about 100k samples/sec. The Volt and time per division is set from the PC. I don't know if they have agents in the US, but the web site is www.picotech.com. -- Chris Morriss From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 13:24:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10200; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 13:24:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 13:24:21 -0800 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <5f.5f131bc0.25a7b374@aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 16:24:04 EST Subject: Drawing,coil wiring for bifilar magneto To: energy21@listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_5f.5f131bc0.25a7b374_boundary" X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Resent-Message-ID: <"bTr84.0.BV2.4cbTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13554 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com --part1_5f.5f131bc0.25a7b374_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 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U/qkh4igXaqQ+LilYSqmY7qSrrilORdBaSqlXGWIbeqmb+qlu/hRoFmnOZmVIEWcelqTc0hL yPmnHJRJN3MKWoiaqIq6qIzaqI76qJAaqZI6qY0SEAAAOw== --part1_5f.5f131bc0.25a7b374_boundary-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 16:47:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA20938; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 16:47:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 16:47:40 -0800 Message-ID: <20000108004736.16823.qmail@nwcst290.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 7 Jan 00 19:47:36 EST From: Horace To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Drawing,coil wiring for bifilar magneto] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA20915 Resent-Message-ID: <"9cFKK1.0.175.haeTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13555 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Butch, In your SBS2.gif drawing with the 8-figure winding pattern, your winding has 4 ends. (4 terminals). Is this a mistake ? Horace ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 21:01:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA13045; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:01:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:01:30 -0800 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <1f.1f16fe66.25a81e9a@aol.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 00:01:14 EST Subject: Re:Mistake found by Horace (wiring for bifilar magneto] To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Resent-Message-ID: <"w-SJD2.0.kB3.fIiTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13556 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com In a message dated 1/7/00 6:49:17 PM Central Standard Time, horacex@usa.net writes: > your winding has 4 > ends. (4 terminals). > > Is this a mistake ? Horace, Yes, that is a mistake, thank you for making me aware of it. I forgot to take two of them off after changing design. I will correct drawing and post. Butch From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 21:28:51 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA23323; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:28:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:28:50 -0800 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <8c.8c2b4346.25a8250b@aol.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 00:28:43 EST Subject: Thanks everyone for help with scope software To: energy21@listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Resent-Message-ID: <"7zx1.0.Ki5.HiiTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13557 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I would like to thank everyone that replied to post for pc scope software. I must have got one hundred of them! Regards, Butch LaFonte From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 22:02:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA03404; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 22:02:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 22:02:16 -0800 Message-ID: <018001bf599e$5dcbb7c0$c9b57ed8@mrand> From: "mrand" To: Subject: Bipolar Tesla Coil Needed Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 22:05:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"CMI3S.0.1r.dBjTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13558 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi all, Looking for a kit or completed unit. Can anyone help? Thanks - Mike From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 7 23:25:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA24848; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 23:25:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 23:25:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3876E5AF.9EEEEE60@netzero.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 23:22:23 -0800 From: POTTED PLANT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bipolar Tesla Coil Needed References: <018001bf599e$5dcbb7c0$c9b57ed8@mrand> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GxtMW3.0.946.fPkTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13559 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi folks, Mike, you lost me with the part "bipolar". David mrand wrote: > > Hi all, > Looking for a kit or completed unit. Can anyone help? > Thanks - Mike -- E-mail to: broompilot@juno.com Or TO: broompilot@netzero.net Fax to: 1-253-681-1133 __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 00:16:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA03456; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 00:16:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 00:16:13 -0800 Message-ID: <01e101bf59b1$15515b40$c9b57ed8@mrand> From: "mrand" To: Subject: Re: Bipolar Tesla Coil Needed Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 00:19:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Z8-K3.0.vr.D9lTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13560 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Go to http://members.xoom.com/_XOOM/GrandSearch/tesla.html then in the Edit/Find Text menu type "bipolar" for more information. -----Original Message----- From: POTTED PLANT To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Friday, January 07, 2000 11:15 PM Subject: Re: Bipolar Tesla Coil Needed >Hi folks, > >Mike, you lost me with the part "bipolar". > >David > > >mrand wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> Looking for a kit or completed unit. Can anyone help? >> Thanks - Mike > >-- >E-mail to: broompilot@juno.com > >Or TO: broompilot@netzero.net > >Fax to: 1-253-681-1133 > > >__________________________________________ >NetZero - Defenders of the Free World >Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at >http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 00:44:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA10292; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 00:44:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 00:44:46 -0800 Message-ID: <3876F922.87EAF00@netzero.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 00:45:22 -0800 From: POTTED PLANT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bipolar Tesla Coil Needed References: <01e101bf59b1$15515b40$c9b57ed8@mrand> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"t5xqZ3.0.jW2.zZlTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13561 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi folks, Okay, now I understand. It isn't as stated "bipolar Tesla coil" in the subject line, it is a bipolar Tesla coil system with two coils. Gotcha. Thanks, David mrand wrote: > > Go to http://members.xoom.com/_XOOM/GrandSearch/tesla.html > > then in the Edit/Find Text menu type "bipolar" for more information. -- E-mail to: broompilot@juno.com Or TO: broompilot@netzero.net Fax to: 1-253-681-1133 __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 10:41:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA06276; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 10:41:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 10:41:11 -0800 Message-ID: <005a01bf5a08$63d7f9c0$58b47ed8@mrand> From: "mrand" To: Subject: Re: Bipolar Tesla Coil Needed Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 10:44:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"5_U5R2.0.vX1.6JuTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13562 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi David, Sorry for the confusion. At the "Search the Tesla Coil Web Ring!" field type "bipolar". Then scroll down to Tesla Inventions T E S L A The lost Inventions by George Trinkaus Here are the suppressed inventions of Nikola Tesla all in one place rendered in clear English and in 42 illustrations Tesla was fa URL: http://members.xoom.com/tastraum/teslainv.html On this website type "bipolar" in FindText as the (excellent) document is large. Tesla used both ends of his secondary HV/HF oscillating coil to light bulbs, plasma effects etc., verses the TC designs used today that only use one end of the secondary coil with the other end grounded. Regards, Michael -----Original Message----- From: POTTED PLANT To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Saturday, January 08, 2000 12:36 AM Subject: Re: Bipolar Tesla Coil Needed >Hi folks, > > >Okay, now I understand. >It isn't as stated "bipolar Tesla coil" in the >subject line, it is a bipolar Tesla coil system >with two coils. Gotcha. > >Thanks, David > > >mrand wrote: >> >> Go to http://members.xoom.com/_XOOM/GrandSearch/tesla.html >> >> then in the Edit/Find Text menu type "bipolar" for more information. > >-- >E-mail to: broompilot@juno.com > >Or TO: broompilot@netzero.net > >Fax to: 1-253-681-1133 >__________________________________________ >NetZero - Defenders of the Free World >Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at >http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 15:25:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA10538; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 15:25:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 15:25:01 -0800 Message-ID: <8450094.947373754140.JavaMail.imail@roary.excite.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 15:22:34 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey D Norris Reply-To: To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Bi Polar Tesla Coil Info Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.178.187 Resent-Message-ID: <"eArAo2.0.Va2.CTyTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13563 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com (From Tesla List) Sat, 01 May 1999 19:19:41 -0600 Original Poster: "Thomas McGahee" One problem that most experimenters building bi-polar center-fed Tesla coils fail to take into consideration is the difficulty of adjusting the coupling. If you simply slide the primary more towards one side, you increase the coupling on one side and decrease it on the other side. If the experimenter fails to ground the secondary at its center, then approaching either of the ends will cause the voltage on the other end to change drastically. Quite often the circuit will respond by causing sparks to fly between the primary and the secondary at or near the center. For these reasons it is generally better to make a bi-polar Tesla coil that uses two distinct secondaries having the bases both tied to a really good common RF ground. Such a bipolar Tesla coil will have separate primaries for each secondary. The coupling of each can be independently adjusted. The primaries have to be properly phased so that the tops of the two secondaries are out of phase. You can wind the secondaries in the same direction and the primaries in the same direction, and achieve proper phasing by just phasing the *connection* to the primary. There is NO need to wind any of the coils differently (although that is just as valid a method to achieve proper phasing). Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 16:37:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA32105; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 16:37:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 16:37:49 -0800 Message-ID: <8193310.947378189194.JavaMail.imail@roary.excite.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 16:36:29 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey D Norris Reply-To: To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: More Bi Polar Coil Stuff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.177.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"BiqWL1.0.Ur7.SXzTu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13564 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Check out the "Mini-Twin" schematics and white paper located at http://fp2.hughes.net/brianb/newpage12.htm All of the bipolar designs ,including Bill Wysocks model 12, that I have seen employ a single capacity for both the primaries to resonate with, including the above design. Most tesla coil primary designs follow the example of Teslas design where early on in the July Colorado Spring Notes he shows the disadvantage of having the arc INSIDE the primary tank circuit, and then places the arc gap OUTSIDE of the primary tank circuit where it represents a short to the power supply. Had Tesla considered to take the discarded circuit and drive two of them 180 out of phase, mirror image from a center tapped transformer, he may have at first not realized that each primary tank circuit on either side of the center tapped secondary could each use the same arc gap in opposite directions of travel,simply by reversing the relative L and C positions in one of the tank circuits. I hope to try this method in the future, but for now one of my secondaries need repair. This method should create the same condition found in a binary resonant circuit in inverse. Originally in a BR circuit it was found that 2 180 phased series resonances themselves become ONE parallel resonant circuit by the topology change of connecting the circuit across the midpoints. In the second situation two tank circuits present themselves, but topologically the schematic becomes two series resonances when one of the tanks is inverted. I am unsure whether it would be necessary to disconnect the center tap to secure these conditions, may make further post concerning this. HDN Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 17:18:16 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA12340; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:18:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:18:13 -0800 Message-ID: <026101bf5a3f$d900a1c0$58b47ed8@mrand> From: "mrand" To: Subject: Re: More Bi Polar Coil Stuff Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 17:21:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"H2rmI2.0.h03.L7-Tu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13565 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Harvey, Thanks for the info. Yes, I am looking for the original Tesla bipolar coil designs that used a single secondary coil. The design below, as well as most current designs, uses 2 coils in series with a center tap ground. In the old days they soaked the coils in rosin and beeswax, to prevent primary discharge to secondary. Also, for tuning the secondary for experiments, Tesla used a "tuning inductor" or capacitor. This seems to be a "lost art" :-) Thanks - Michael -----Original Message----- From: Harvey D Norris To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Saturday, January 08, 2000 4:35 PM Subject: More Bi Polar Coil Stuff >Check out the "Mini-Twin" schematics and white paper located at > http://fp2.hughes.net/brianb/newpage12.htm > >All of the bipolar designs ,including Bill Wysocks model 12, that I have >seen employ a single capacity for both the primaries to resonate with, >including the above design. Most tesla coil primary designs follow the >example of Teslas design where early on in the July Colorado Spring >Notes he shows the disadvantage of having the arc INSIDE the primary >tank circuit, and then places the arc gap OUTSIDE of the primary tank >circuit where it represents a short to the power supply. Had Tesla >considered to take the discarded circuit and drive two of them 180 >out of phase, mirror image from a center tapped transformer, he may >have at first not realized that each primary tank circuit on either side >of the center tapped secondary could each use the same arc gap in >opposite directions of travel,simply by reversing the relative L and C >positions in one of the tank circuits. I hope to try this method in the >future, but for now one of my secondaries need repair. This method >should create the same condition found in a binary resonant circuit >in inverse. Originally in a BR circuit it was found that 2 180 phased >series resonances themselves become ONE parallel resonant circuit >by the topology change of connecting the circuit across the midpoints. >In the second situation two tank circuits present themselves, but >topologically the schematic becomes two series resonances when one >of the tanks is inverted. I am unsure whether it would be necessary >to disconnect the center tap to secure these conditions, may make >further post concerning this. HDN > > >Binary Resonant System >http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 > > > > > >_______________________________________________________ >Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com > The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 18:06:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA01112; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 18:06:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 18:06:16 -0800 Message-ID: <8511100.947383402816.JavaMail.imail@roary.excite.com> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 18:03:22 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey D Norris Reply-To: To: Freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Center-tap secondary questions? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.177.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"ga6Ad.0.HH.Oq-Tu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13566 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I am somewhat confused over several issues; Does removing the center tap always topologically mean the same thing as twice the voltage across the entire circuit then viewed as a series circuit? What happens in the case where one secondary consists of capacitive reactance, the other inductive reactance, can and does the center tap connection prevent them from resonating if those values matched the input freq requirements. Wouldnt each secondary have to be wound in opposite directions, or bifilar for it to share a pathway across the center tap for both 180 phases? If identical amperages were being drawn on each secondary, wouldnt that mean that twice the amperage would exist on the center tap path, if these amperages were resistive? Finally wouldnt a series resonant circuit that appears without a center tap connection possibly become a tank circiut when the center tap is connected? It would then appear as a capacitive reactance 180 out of phase with an inductive reactance, the same condition as a tank circuit. Normally when we put them schematically in parallel this condition results, but in a sense doesnt the center tap secondary connections already preclude a parallel connection inherent in its function of delivery? HDN Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 21:47:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA17375; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 21:46:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 21:46:11 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Another Attempt to Clarification Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 00:56:23 -0500 Message-ID: <20000109055623375.AAA232@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"Xnntz2.0.OF4.Z22Uu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13567 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Ahoy there, >On 28-Dec-1999 skot wrote: >> If a cubic mile of it burned it could put thermal in >> "thermal-nuclear" >> >> >> Recently I've become convinced that all those stories of >> runaway diesel engines >> are actually caused by burning nitrogen. They say "it was >> running on the motor >> oil" or something else and would quit in a few seconds but >> this is never >> verified because they kill it to keep it from getting >> ruined. > >Sorry to bust your bubble, but it is the motor oil. I've seen the carcass of an >engine that wasn't shut down in time. The only way to shut down a diesel in >this mode is to choke the air off, and given the vacuum that a runaway diesel >can pull, well, I ain't holding my hand over the intake... > > >Jim Richardson > Anarchist, pagan and proud of it >WWW.eskimo.com/~warlock > Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS. I know this is late in the discussion, but I have been catching up, just now saw it, and had to throw my two cents in. I've seen a number of runaway diesels, and the most common cause that I found was water in the fuel. The water gets to the injector, which applies a great deal of pressure to the fuel to mist it out into the cylinder. The mister is made for fuel and not capable of handling the water. It blows the tip off of the injector, and an unregulated amount of fuel follows into the cylinder. On the GMAC 6-71 series, the cylinders are all connected via the blower and exhaust ports, so the extra fuel can even migrate into the other cylinders. The result is a constantly accelerating engine that will blow the cylinder walls right out. While Jim is correct in saying that the only way to choke down a runaway is to cut off the oxygen at the turbo inports, that is not the only way. I've seen that done actually, and while it hurts, it sometimes works. The other way, and the way that is recommended by most engineers is to blast away at the air inports with a CO2 fire extinguisher. This is what I've had to do, and it shuts the engine down pronto without damaging anything any further. I would think that this would work for cars as well, and I never miss an opportunity to tell people to have fire extinguishers around just about anywhere. Fires start pretty quickly, and quite often there is time to put them out before they get out of hand, but only if you have fire extinguishers. I keep'em handy. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 22:31:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA30021; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 22:31:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 22:31:40 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.16.20000108221355.38374ac6@earthlink.net> X-Sender: ddameron@earthlink.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (16) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 22:13:55 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Dave Dameron Subject: Re: Bipolar Tesla Coil Needed In-Reply-To: <005a01bf5a08$63d7f9c0$58b47ed8@mrand> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"sQwFt3.0.vK7.Cj2Uu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13568 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Michael and all, At 10:44 AM 01/08/00 -0800, you wrote: > >Hi David, >Sorry for the confusion. At the "Search the Tesla Coil Web Ring!" field >type "bipolar". Then scroll down to > >Tesla Inventions >T E S L A The lost Inventions by George Trinkaus Here are the suppressed >inventions of Nikola Tesla all in one place rendered in clear English and in >42 illustrations Tesla was fa >URL: http://members.xoom.com/tastraum/teslainv.html > >On this website type "bipolar" in FindText as the (excellent) document is >large. Tesla used both ends of his secondary HV/HF oscillating coil to >light bulbs, plasma effects etc., verses the TC designs used today that only >use one end of the secondary coil with the other end grounded. >Regards, Michael > Sorry, I couldn't find the word "bipolar" in a search of this 87k file. Do you have either of these books (reprints from Lindsay publications): "High Frequency Apparatus" by Curtis, 1916. It says an Oudin coil is one where the pri. and secondary are connected at a neutral point (ground). This is what is usually seen with the connection at the bottom. In a Tesla coil, there is only inductive coupling. A Tesla coil can be with the sec. not grounded, but say with a spark gap between the ends. It is typically horizontal with the primary at mid point. I think this is what you mean by bipolar? It has several plans. "The Boy Electrician", Alfred Morgan, 1940. This has a smaller one: Pri 10 turns No. 10 AWG (2.5mm diameter) wire Sec. 75mm diameter, 300mm long. These run off the usual HV transformer, cap and spark gap. -Dave From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 23:11:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA03410; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:10:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:10:59 -0800 Message-ID: <03b401bf5a71$1fa9f6e0$58b47ed8@mrand> From: "mrand" To: Subject: Re: Bipolar Tesla Coil Needed Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:14:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"RrWH62.0.Ar.2I3Uu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13569 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Dave and all, -----Original Message----- From: Dave Dameron To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Saturday, January 08, 2000 10:22 PM Subject: Re: Bipolar Tesla Coil Needed >Hi Michael and all, >At 10:44 AM 01/08/00 -0800, you wrote: >> >>Hi David, >>Sorry for the confusion. At the "Search the Tesla Coil Web Ring!" field >>type "bipolar". Then scroll down to >> >>Tesla Inventions >>T E S L A The lost Inventions by George Trinkaus Here are the suppressed >>inventions of Nikola Tesla all in one place rendered in clear English and in >>42 illustrations Tesla was fa >>URL: http://members.xoom.com/tastraum/teslainv.html >> >>On this website type "bipolar" in FindText as the (excellent) document is >>large. Tesla used both ends of his secondary HV/HF oscillating coil to >>light bulbs, plasma effects etc., verses the TC designs used today that only >>use one end of the secondary coil with the other end grounded. >>Regards, Michael >> >Sorry, I couldn't find the word "bipolar" in a search of this 87k file. *** The following file is 891k. Do a Text /Find search here as it worked for me. http://members.xoom.com/tastraum/teslainv.html Do >you have either of these books (reprints from Lindsay publications): >"High Frequency Apparatus" by Curtis, 1916. >It says an Oudin coil is one where the pri. and secondary are connected at >a neutral point (ground). This is what is usually seen with the connection >at the bottom. In a Tesla coil, there is only inductive coupling. *** Yes, this is correct. No I missed that book, as it is "no longer in print" :-( From Lindsey I have Electricity at High Pressures and frequences :-) A Tesla >coil can be with the sec. not grounded, but say with a spark gap between >the ends. It is typically horizontal with the primary at mid point. I think >this is what you mean by bipolar? It has several plans. *** Yes, that is it! I would be interested in seeing them if possible. It is looking like I will have to build one myself :-) >"The Boy Electrician", Alfred Morgan, 1940. This has a smaller one: >Pri 10 turns No. 10 AWG (2.5mm diameter) wire >Sec. 75mm diameter, 300mm long. *** I did not see this book at Lindsey's. >These run off the usual HV transformer, cap and spark gap. >-Dave > Thanks - Michael From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 23:16:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA05476; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:16:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:16:57 -0800 From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: RE: Few: Re: Still going Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:06:08 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 In-Reply-To: <20000104.171823.-422719.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"Bpnre.0.TL1.eN3Uu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13570 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Tom, > >> > >> By the way, someone mentioned the Drs. Graneau. I have > >> read their book > >> "Newtonian Electrodynamics", and found it very interesting. > >However, in > >> the same post, the author said that they (the Drs.) found that no > >> electrolysis is conducted with the high-voltage arcs they used. > >They > >> used a large, high voltage capacitor bank with an inductor, thus > >creating > >> a circuit that delivered its power at resonance between the > >capacitance > >> and the inductance. > > > >No, actually it was a high current setup with inductance and oscillation > >reduced as much as possible. With high inductance it won't work. Too > >much energy is dissipated that way. > > I never said it was high inductance. It turns out, > though, that I was > mistaken about them using any inductor at all. Yes that is what I meant. I wasn't trying to say that you were trying to say that it was high inductance. Confused yet? :-) I misread a statement: > they used a coil to measure the current flow. Incidentally, the > oscilliscope diagrams in "Newtonian Electrodynamics" show that the > current was "ringing" (indicating AC; see figure 6.3). I guess this may > be partially due to the small amount of inductance present in all real > wires. Right, and in the water itself maybe? > > >> I think it has been sufficiently established that AC > >> only produces electrolysis at certain frequencies, and the chance that > >> the Drs. circuit was tuned to one of them is very small. > > > >They were not trying to electrolyze water. They discovered this effect > >while experimenting with longitudinal Ampere forces in currents. Water > was > >never electrolysed during these tests, and the water didn't even get > hot. > >All the energy was kinetic, and there was a lot of it :-) > > When did I say that it was their intention to perform > electrolysis? > Indeed, I did not. My intention was to explain why the Drs. didn't see > any electrolysis, while I did, even though I was trying to duplicate > their experiments. Ok, I misunderstood you. Like I said, I hadn't been following the whole thread. > > >>When I tried to > >> reproduce their saltwater-related experiments, > >They did not use salt water. The effect drops the more electrolytes > >are in the water. Any electrolysis dissipates the energy. The purer the > water > >the more power is needed to cause the effect, but the bang is much > >bigger. > > Yes, they did use salt water for some of their > experiments. See pages > 198 to 213 of "Newtonian Electrodynamics". They also used pure water, > and found it as you said. OK, I haven't see the book, but in their papers they mention only in passing that they tried salt water and it didn't work very well or at all. This is quibbling, but when I said "they didn't use salt water" I meant that they did not use it to get their large effects. > > >>I did observe electrolysis > >> (or at least a phenomena I attributed to electrolysis). Specifically, > >> when I put one high voltage lead at the bottom of a shallow dish > filled > >> with saltwater and touched the other to the surface above it, I not > only > >> observed the cool mist that is thrown up, but the arc burned larger > and > >> hotter. I assume that this was due to the H2 (g) produced by very > rapid > >> electrolysis being ignited by the arc. The high voltage cicuit I used > >> was simply a transformer from a microwave that was rectified by diodes > >> and smoothed a bit with a small capacitor. > > > >What you are doing is interesting, but it is not related to the Graneau > >tests. > > This was as close as I could get to reproducing their > experiment. So it > was related. Well, true. But it wasn't very close, I have to say, which was what inspired my original comment. > > > They were all very short, noninductive arcs through pure water. > > That's true for the most part, but they did experiment with mercury > fountains. Yes, in the context of testing for ampere forces (at least according to the papers, maybe the story is different in the book) They found that the water arcs could not be accounted for by ampere forces and had to hypothesize that these forces were releasing some internal energy stored in the bonds. > > >(Some tests were done with salt water but these were not as effective). > > Granted. But this statement contradicts your earlier one. Yes, I realized that when writing it. My message want particularly clear, obviously. > > > I suggest you find the original papers and read them. I don't have the > >references right here, but I will let them for you if you want. > > It seems that you are the one who should go back and read them! Well, I have read them just recently. It simply appeared from your statements that you didn't have access to a lot of the original material about all this. I am not an experimenter and I would like to see more tests done with this idea. If sending you the papers will help that happen I would be glad to do so. On rereading my post to you it seems not very clear, and a bit patronizing, in retrospect, and for that I apologize. It wasn't my intention. It wasn't one of my finer literary moments :-) Fred From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 23:44:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA10764; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:44:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:44:03 -0800 Message-ID: <03d201bf5a75$be5cf5e0$58b47ed8@mrand> From: "mrand" To: "freenrg-l" Subject: Griffith Park Observatory, Oudin TC Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 23:47:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"UaOCv2.0.4e2.3n3Uu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13571 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi All, Just got back from seeing the 5 foot tall Oudin coil built by Frederick Strong, donated in 1935. Still going strong with 4 foot streamers to the side walls. In the past, before they put up the glass enclosure, the spark traveled over the audiences heads across the hall (+20'). I asked if they had any plans on the design but the speaker did not find any in their research library, when asked by another person earlier. The plaque said 250kV and the speaker said that was what was feeding the oudin. He did not know what the voltage was coming off the oudin coil. The speaker talked about how Tesla was trying to implement this design but the utilities could not meter the users for a fee. It was an enjoyable evening also viewing the planetarium show on the upcoming April 5th conjunction of 5 viewable planets. Thanks - Michael From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 01:58:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA27177; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 01:58:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 01:58:51 -0800 Message-ID: <38785C5D.3E60B359@netzero.net> Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 02:01:01 -0800 From: POTTED PLANT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Oudin_Tesla Coils References: <03b401bf5a71$1fa9f6e0$58b47ed8@mrand> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dHXF93.0.Xe6.Rl5Uu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13572 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Kids! Here is a place to go for "do-it-yourself" x-rays that are produced using an "Oudin" coil. http://www.noah.org/science/x-ray/index.html I have book 4 from the "The Boy Mechanic" series...copyright 1925............ I have attached image files from pages 269 and 270. I do not recall if it is allowed, some body remind me. I have a copy of "Boy Electrician" around...... Can't wait to get it to the scanner...... David -- E-mail to: broompilot@juno.com Or TO: broompilot@netzero.net Fax to: 1-253-681-1133 __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 10:54:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10873; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 10:54:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 10:54:17 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.16.20000109105855.260fe568@earthlink.net> X-Sender: ddameron@earthlink.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (16) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 10:58:55 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Dave Dameron Subject: Re: Bipolar Tesla Coil Needed In-Reply-To: <03b401bf5a71$1fa9f6e0$58b47ed8@mrand> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"G0nGG1.0.nf2.ObDUu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13573 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Michael, At 11:14 PM 01/08/00 -0800, you wrote: >Hi Dave and all, >>>T E S L A The lost Inventions by George Trinkaus Here are the suppressed >>>inventions of Nikola Tesla all in one place rendered in clear English and >in >>>42 illustrations Tesla was fa >>>URL: http://members.xoom.com/tastraum/teslainv.html >>> >>>On this website type "bipolar" in FindText as the (excellent) document is >>>large. Tesla used both ends of his secondary HV/HF oscillating coil to >>>light bulbs, plasma effects etc., verses the TC designs used today that >only >>>use one end of the secondary coil with the other end grounded. >>>Regards, Michael >>> >>Sorry, I couldn't find the word "bipolar" in a search of this 87k file. > >*** The following file is 891k. Do a Text /Find search here as it worked >for me. >http://members.xoom.com/tastraum/teslainv.html I will try it again. >>"High Frequency Apparatus" by Curtis, 1916. >>It says an Oudin coil is one where the pri. and secondary are connected at >>a neutral point (ground). This is what is usually seen with the connection >>at the bottom. In a Tesla coil, there is only inductive coupling. >*** Yes, that is it! I would be interested in seeing them if possible. It >is looking like I will have to build one myself :-) > >>"The Boy Electrician", Alfred Morgan, 1940. This has a smaller one: >>Pri 10 turns No. 10 AWG (2.5mm diameter) wire >>Sec. 75mm diameter, 300mm long. >*** I did not see this book at Lindsey's. > Another book is "How to Make things Electrical", 1922, see pages 261-263. Is your address the same, I can mail you some stuff? Have you contacted Bill Wysock abouts plans or parts? He's in the Pasadena, CA. area. -Dave From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 11:31:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA24893; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:31:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:31:48 -0800 Message-ID: <012501bf5ad8$9f3d6560$b6b57ed8@mrand> From: "mrand" To: Subject: Re: Bipolar Tesla Coil Needed Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 11:35:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"KGHGo3.0.i46.Z8EUu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13574 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Dave, >> >Another book is "How to Make things Electrical", 1922, see pages 261-263. >Is your address the same, I can mail you some stuff? *** Yes, thanks! Have you contacted >Bill Wysock abouts plans or parts? He's in the Pasadena, CA. area. >-Dave Yes. Also, check out Bill's excellent webpage www.ttr.com as it has some good info on the Tesla's pre-1894 tuned lumped element regime or his post - 1894 distributive resonator regime, as well as some awesome TC units. Best regards, Michael From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 9 13:04:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA18849; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:04:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:04:46 -0800 Message-ID: <20000109210441.22078.qmail@nwcst091.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 9 Jan 00 16:04:40 EST From: Horace To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [ Wires put in figure 8 for bifilar effect ] CC: energy21@listbot.com X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----NetAddressPart-00--=_iVeO7376S916ed3ddff" Resent-Message-ID: <"VJmVq2.0.Oc4.kVFUu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13575 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------NetAddressPart-00--=_iVeO7376S916ed3ddff Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The attached series of drawings in zipped MS-Word97 format, should demons= trate without additional explanations, that the figure-8 windings made over two= separate ferro-cores are functionaly equivalent to a simple winding over = a one torroidial core. Thus I expect the figure-8 arrangement to behave the same way as a full o= r broken "torroid", with no unconventional bahavior. Horace P.S. Please take a logical look at the attached drawing, before commenting on = the above text alone. HLafonte@aol.com wrote: > > We know that we can run current in opposite directions thru two wires= = > placed side by side in a coil configuration and the magnetic fields can= cel each other out, but the current still flows in the wires. > > Now we also know that in a transformer that the flux (except for leak= age flux) stays in the iron core if it's not past saturation. This flux, even= though it is in the iron, and not outside the iron, it induces a current = in the coil windings. > > Now what if we put the two iron cores next to each other, their flux = would be going in opposite directions like the current in a bifilar coil. > > Now if we put one layer of square magnet wire around each core and pl= aced the coils close to each other so that their magnetic fields cancel each o= ut, then the current would still flow as in the bifilar coil but as the magne= t rotor approached the two side by side iron cores, their would be no chang= e in = the iron core flux due to the flux being produced by the coils cancel eac= h other out. Now the rotor feels no additional drag or repulsion as it leav= es or approaches the stator. But voltage/current is still produced by the coils= =2E > >Flux flows in opposite directions in the core of transformers and stil= l produces voltage/current. > Look at attached drawing to better see what I'm talking about. > Thanks, > Butch LaFonte ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 ------NetAddressPart-00--=_iVeO7376S916ed3ddff Content-Type: application/x-zip-compressed; name="8-field.zip" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="8-field.zip" UEsDBBQAAgAIANOrKSjcbnazyTsAAAC4AQALAAAAOC1maWVsZC5kb2PsnQlgFcUZgGdzzHsJ uTgSAyQhIQn3ERIukWAEQWwREKIG8AhCgHAEjKAiKOFQ4k2rtYpaFa/gmWprqdUS0CqKYlCR o1aj4lURHwoKRUj/mZ1HZt/+b/exb/ICkQ3/bN68zXzzz+zM/Lvzz1D7bsu6h//c7lPicwwh 4eRofRShUlwYyHbvhwRCdsJJAzlaX1/PoraBfAhSf+o4aY49j20gV5CoCKi2VuuP1SwcLAYq P45cPvPymfO7z+9OTEdURBLplkxI0lkal10EP7I1/VxfH38szt/v3uMSHm4Snzb5/M6O2ijz 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Sun, 09 Jan 2000 22:43:16 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Dave Dameron Subject: Re: [ Wires put in figure 8 for bifilar effect ] In-Reply-To: <20000109210441.22078.qmail@nwcst091.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"sjVXV2.0.9B2.B4QUu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13576 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Horace, Can you generate them in an older format, such as word 6.0? At 04:04 PM 01/09/00 EST, you wrote: > >The attached series of drawings in zipped MS-Word97 format, should demonstrate >without additional explanations, that the figure-8 windings made over two >separate ferro-cores are functionaly equivalent to a simple winding over a one >torroidial core. > Well, the flux is opposite in the 2 legs (un/down), but the turn winding direction is also reversed in the 2 legs, so it should act as a single solenoid, bent like a horseshoe magnet. To see a picture of this (using individual cw/ccw turns instead of a figure 8 turn) find a picture of an Edison dynamo, specifically the field windings and yoke. Hope this answers your questions, Butch. -Dave From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 05:18:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA27115; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 05:18:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 05:18:12 -0800 Message-ID: <20000110131807.7706.qmail@www0h.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 10 Jan 00 08:18:07 EST From: Horace To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [ Wires put in figure 8 for bifilar effect ] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA27096 Resent-Message-ID: <"QG89s1.0.ad6.KmTUu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13577 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sorry, No. The MS-Word 6.0 does not support this type of vector drawings. MS-Word97 has the greatest market penetration and new versions such as in Office2000 are already out. Dave Dameron wrote: > Hi Horace, > Can you generate them in an older format, such as word 6.0? > At 04:04 PM 01/09/00 EST, you wrote: > > > >The attached series of drawings in zipped MS-Word97 format, should > demonstrate ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 06:45:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA22286; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 06:45:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 06:45:19 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 09:31:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Bipolar Tesla Coil Needed Message-ID: <20000110.093917.-492407.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-5,7-12 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tZWPb1.0.3S5.-1VUu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13578 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com >Another book is "How to Make things Electrical", 1922, see pages 261-263. >Is your address the same, I can mail you some stuff? Have you contacted >Bill Wysock abouts plans or parts? He's in the Pasadena, CA. area. >-Dave Can you supply the author's name, ISBN (if any), and publisher's name (and address), please? -Tom Grimes tgrimes1@juno.com hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 08:08:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA22955; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:08:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:08:20 -0800 From: MATTIARO@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:08:05 EST Subject: Re: Oudin_Tesla Coils To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Resent-Message-ID: <"Q7yFD2.0.ac5.pFWUu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13579 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com In a message dated 1/9/2000 2:00:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, broompilot@netzero.net writes: Hello David. You forgot if it was legal to copy the book? Just look at the last page of the book. If it says "Copied" then you are not allowed to copy it. But if it doesn't say that, then the book has not been copied. It is allright to copy it. Matti From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 10:26:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA20989; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:25:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:25:55 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.16.20000110102613.191fc95c@earthlink.net> X-Sender: ddameron@earthlink.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (16) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:26:13 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Dave Dameron Subject: Re: Bipolar Tesla Coil Needed In-Reply-To: <20000110.093917.-492407.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"FzKXT2.0.o75.oGYUu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13580 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Tom, At 09:31 AM 01/10/00 -0500, you wrote: >>Another book is "How to Make things Electrical", 1922, see pages >261-263. >Can you supply the author's name, ISBN (if any), and publisher's name >(and address), please? It was reprinted by Lindsay publications, www.lindsaybks.com. It has no author, it came from "Popular Science". ISBN 1-55918-149-4. -Dave From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 10:37:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA25178; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:37:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:37:44 -0800 X-Sender: bailey@shell14.ba.best.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:40:28 -0700 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com (Freengr List) From: pgb@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey) Subject: Antigravity Conference (6/99) Proceedings Now Available Resent-Message-ID: <"xZC6H1.0.J96.tRYUu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13581 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Now Available: The Proceedings of: The First International Antigravity Conference June 27-28, 1999, Reno, Nevada Sponsored by Antigravity News and Space Drive Technology 7 Full Papers 6 Handouts 158 total pages. $30.00 (USD) (US S/H included.) (Overseas, add $5.00 USD for fast mailing.) See: http://www.padrak.com/agn/CPAPERS99.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 13:55:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA04315; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 13:55:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 13:55:14 -0800 Message-ID: <387A4E81.9E1E532E@netzero.net> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 13:26:25 -0800 From: POTTED PLANT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: copying from books References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NtdFB.0.F31.1LbUu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13582 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Matti and group. Thanks for reminding us all about that, but I am generally mindful of the copyright stuff. In this case, there is absolutely nothing in the front or back that says *anything* about copying,reproducing, likenesses,"without expressed permission" etc. But then I think 75 years ago they didn't have so much a need to make the statements that we see all the time these days. Matti, I am not familiar with the "copied" test you mentioned. I wish to hear more about it. Be Well, David MATTIARO@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 1/9/2000 2:00:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, > broompilot@netzero.net writes: > > Hello David. > You forgot if it was legal to copy the book? > Just look at the last page of the book. If it says "Copied" then you are > not allowed to copy it. But if it doesn't say that, then the book has not > been copied. It is allright to copy it. > > Matti -- E-mail to: broompilot@juno.com Or TO: broompilot@netzero.net Fax to: 1-253-681-1133 __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 14:10:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA08018; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 14:10:12 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 14:10:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003201bf5bb6$b550a540$0a00a8c0@skot.emeraldnet.net> From: "skot" To: Subject: Re: copying from books Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 14:04:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Resent-Message-ID: <"QgRq2.0.9z1.1ZbUu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13583 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com In the US, copyrights can no longer be renewed after 75 years. Some of the first Mickey Mouse cartoons are now public domain because of this. scottb -----Original Message----- From: POTTED PLANT To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Monday, January 10, 2000 1:53 PM Subject: copying from books >Hi Matti and group. > >Thanks for reminding us all about that, but I am generally >mindful of the copyright stuff. > >In this case, there is absolutely nothing in the front >or back that says *anything* about copying,reproducing, >likenesses,"without expressed permission" etc. >But then I think 75 years ago they didn't have so much >a need to make the statements that we see all the time >these days. > >Matti, I am not familiar with the "copied" test you mentioned. >I wish to hear more about it. > >Be Well, > >David > > > > >MATTIARO@aol.com wrote: >> >> In a message dated 1/9/2000 2:00:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, >> broompilot@netzero.net writes: >> >> Hello David. >> You forgot if it was legal to copy the book? >> Just look at the last page of the book. If it says "Copied" then you are >> not allowed to copy it. But if it doesn't say that, then the book has not >> been copied. It is allright to copy it. >> >> Matti > >-- >E-mail to: broompilot@juno.com > >Or TO: broompilot@netzero.net > >Fax to: 1-253-681-1133 > > >__________________________________________ >NetZero - Defenders of the Free World >Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at >http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 14:23:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA09617; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 14:23:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 14:23:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <387A5992.5C3A@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:13:38 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nu Energy Horizons CC: nuenergy2@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Worth thinking about. References: <387A4BF8.B6F13395@globalcrossing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"iCGlG2.0.5M2.ElbUu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13584 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Martin, I have been leading towards the second alternative here is the last Month. I will surely study the first alternative here and am sincerely considering this option. -Bruce A. Perreault MARTIN WOLFF wrote: > > Nu Energy Horizons - http://www.nuenergy.org > > This came from another list. Worth thinking about. > > Martin. > > Fred > Good Luck to you and your efforts. I like your attitude. > If anyone comes up with a viable device that could change the world, > they > deserve to make a fortune. Money is good. It can do wonderful things. > You > could set up a great lab, feed children, give lots away etc. > > Not that I have ever been close to a breakthrough, but I have fooled > myself > a couple of times into thinking a device was working. I then, of course, > I > prematurely jumped into the next step of how to present it to the world. > I > don't really subscribe to conspiracy theories. I feel some researchers > shocked at the realization that their device just doesn't work, might > find > it easier to say that their lab was vandalized, and the working models > stolen. But I am sure there has been some suppression of some ideas, and > > theft of others. The following was my best solution for presenting a > device, getting rich and changing the world. > > I would interact openly with associates during the initial development > of > the device, until it appears without any doubt to you, what-so-ever, > that > it works. Fade away from your associates, and email groups. In case of > an > accident, leave sealed information with two non-technical family members > > you can trust. Run it for a month. Refine it. Tweak it to the highest > efficiency you can. > > Design a demonstration of the device and rehearse it until it is > faultless. > Prepare answers for any questions or criticisms. Print information and > demonstration instructions with your name on them. Borrow money. Make > fifty > more devices (or as many as you can). Make a mailing list of fifty > newspapers, scientists, entrepreneurs or organizations that you feel > have > no reason to suppress an OU device (no defense contracts, or oil company > > affiliations etc.). Package the devices and documents and send them out > via > courier, (keeping your copy of the shipping documents as proof), > broadcast > the news on the net and call the local newspaper and TV stations, to > arrange a press conference and demonstrations. Demonstrate your device > to > anyone who will watch. > > You have no patent but: > -It cannot be suppressed. > -Everyone will know that you built it. > -It will be further developed quickly by many. Since it is now common > knowledge,it cannot be patented and suppressed. It will change the world > > faster. > -You will be sought for lucrative contracts, speaking engagements and > University staff positions. > -There will be no reason to threaten or kill you, as you have already > given > the technology away. > > Like a professional athlete, you would be offered lucrative contracts > based > on what you have done. You came up with this device, and you may have > more > breakthroughs to offer. Just having you on the company payroll is > prestigious for them. You would be in the driver's seat, but don't > forget > to give credit to those who helped you develop the idea. > > A pathetic alternative is the paranoid, discredited, lone inventor > secretly > working for years in his basement, hiding his work from perceived > government and corporate conspiracies, trying to patent it, maybe trying > to > manufacture and market it himself, and who may take a working device to > his > grave. > Good Luck to everyone > > Brian From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 15:06:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA30666; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:05:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:05:41 -0800 Message-ID: <387A6607.7EE@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:06:47 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: copying from books References: <003201bf5bb6$b550a540$0a00a8c0@skot.emeraldnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jKTWS3.0.3V7.5NcUu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13585 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com skot wrote: > > In the US, copyrights can no longer be renewed after 75 > years. Some of the first Mickey Mouse cartoons are now > public domain because of this. > > scottb Yes, under old copyright law. Alot has changed under new copyright laws. For example; now you do not need to register your work for it to be copyrighted. It is copyrighted from the date of publication. This was not true under old copyright law. -BAP From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 16:37:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA22207; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:36:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:36:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20000111003636.7550.qmail@nwcst287.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 10 Jan 00 19:36:35 EST From: Horace To: "Nu Energy Horizons" Subject: Re: [Measuring the coil second try] CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, energy21@listbot.com X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id QAA22098 Resent-Message-ID: <"fuag-.0.VQ5.aidUu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13586 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com The measurements look better now: 1) The AB to the meter, CD not connected - looks OK, but inductance might be wrong 2) The AC to the meter BD not connected - looks OK, but capacity could be wrong. 3) The AB to the meter, CD connected - capacity is wrong 4) The BC to the meter, AD connected - capacity is wrong Conclusion: It is obvious that your meter cannot tolerate low resistance when measuring capacity (capacitors have infinite DC resistance) in cases 2,3,4. To aid your meter, short the terminals NOT with solder but with a large value capacitor. If you are in US, CA, UK - go to RadioShack and buy the largest value (microfarads) tantalum capacitor and solder it to the wires that were previously soldered short, when measuring capacity (only !). Watch out, tantalum capacitors are polarized and most likely your meter is also, so keep the capacitor leads and meter sockets synchronized or you will get inaccurater results again. Regarding the second layer - without cutting the 2 wires after winding the 100 turns, just keep winding the second 100 on top of the first 100 turns, going back to where you started. Do not reverse the winding direction, so if it was clockwise, keep it clockwise coming back. The advantage of multi layer coil is its compactness - smaller size compared to a single layer coil. Horace P.S. Sorry to put you through all this, but accurate input data is very important. It will pay back later. Kelly MacInnis wrote: > Nu Energy Horizons - http://www.nuenergy.org > > Horace, > > My meters slots are not fine enough to measure the #30 wire. This may > explain the inconsistent results. > > I made some very short leads with clips on the ends and made all the > measurements again. here are the results. > > I was thinking of a single layer coil. I am interested in reasons for using > several layers though. I am also having trouble thinking of how to connect > the two layers. > > A B > x o o o > x o o o o o > x o o x o o x o > x o o x x o o x x o > x o o x x o o x x o > x o x x o x x o > x x x x x o > x x x o > C D > > > The meter with the leads: > > Capacitance 3.75 pF > Resistance infinite > Inductance none > > The coil: > > B,C, to the meter A,D, connected with solder. (this is the configuration I > would like to use) > > Capacitance 5.4 uF > Resistance 14.0 ohms > Inductance 1.86 mH > > A,B, to the meter C,D, connected with solder > > Capacitance 14.3 uF > Resistance 14.0 ohms > Inductance 0.11 mH > > A,B, to the meter C,D, not connected ends covered with tape to avoid > accidental contact > > Capacitance 4.16nF > Resistance infinite > Inductance none > > A, C, to the meter B, D, not connected > > Capacitance 1.5 nF > Resistance 7.6 ohms > Inductance 0.43 mH > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, write to nuenergy-unsubscribe@listbot.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > Applying to college this year? > Apply online at Embark.com and enter the Embark.com Tuition Sweepstakes! You could win $80,000 for tuition to the college of your dreams! Enter daily to increase your chances of winning: Sweepstakes ends 1/15/00. Click to enter: http://www.listbot.com/links/embark ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 10 18:08:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA22255; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:08:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:08:36 -0800 Message-ID: <387A8DC0.335@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 20:56:16 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com Subject: Patent Law in Regards to the Internet Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-5GmR.0.eR5.a2fUu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13587 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com "If the invention has been described in a printed publication (internet and public email would be included) for more than one year, the device becomes unpatentable." Patent Law states "printed publication." This does not include the internet because "it is not a fixed media." This was clearly explained to me by a well known patent examiner, Tom Valone. This means that any invention that is put on the internet does not qualify as printed media. Anyone can take the information and apply for patent in their name. -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 06:45:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA21592; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 06:44:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 06:44:44 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:31:39 -0500 Subject: copy books, et al Message-ID: <20000111.093653.-455409.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,15-21 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5NNGe2.0.CH5.R7qUu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13588 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com To all, The intent of copyrighting books, and other paraphenalia, is simply to protect the publisher's interest. If it is impossible to contact a publisher or copyright holder after a reasonable effort, then it is obvious that they probably aren't making any money off what they had copyrighted. It is my belief that to copy material that is copyrighted is acceptable as long as you pose no threat to the copyright holder's ability to make money off it. For example, you can quote from a work, even extensive passages, as long as you give the appropriate credit. I think that it would be OK to copy a few pages, or even a chapter, of a book for a friend, as long as you are not widely distributing it. By the way, Kinkos is very strict about copyright law: I tried to have a binder full of folk tunes copied (they are all public domain, being that some of them are upwards of 400 years old) but it was only after much hassle that they let me. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 08:36:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA29311; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:36:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:36:00 -0800 Message-ID: <21372967.947608498316.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:34:58 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey D Norris Reply-To: To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Spark Discharge Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.177.33 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA29292 Resent-Message-ID: <"lPqX12.0.u97.mlrUu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13589 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com A recent publication on Amazon; http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0849328683/qid%3D947288676/102-288133 Systematically describes the spark breakdown of long gas gaps. Unlike most of the literature on the subject addresses not only professional engineers and research physicists, but also undergraduate and graduate students and professionals in related fields. Discusses the nature of a long spark, physical peculiarities of relevant gas discharge processes, methods and results of experimental studies, and analytical and numerical models.Also presents physically substantiated methods for solving problems in high-voltage engineering and lighting. Defers coverage of the return stroke, the principle cause of the destructive action of lightning, to another volume. -- Copyright © 1999 Book News, Inc. Sounds like a winner for my library, but at $105.00 might have to wait awhile. HDN Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 09:05:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA14037; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:05:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:05:18 -0800 Message-ID: <32881337.947610074334.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:01:14 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey D Norris Reply-To: To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: American Radio Relay League Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.177.33 Resent-Message-ID: <"p1OIg3.0.DR3.DBsUu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13590 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com American Radio Relay League good for checking local hamfests http://www.arrl.org/hamfests.html Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 09:12:40 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA17050; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:12:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:12:37 -0800 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:12:30 +0100 Message-Id: <200001111712.SAA21037@ns2.ubcom.net> X-Sender: WDBAUER@pop3.vossnet.de X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net, freenrg-L@eskimo.com From: WDBAUER@vossnet.de (W.D. BAUER) Subject: Re: Patent Law in Regards to the Internet Cc: nuenergy@listbot.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Tnkxp2.0.AA4.3IsUu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13591 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hello all ! At 20:56 10.01.2000 -0500, nuenergy@cyberportal.net wrote: >"If the invention has been described in a printed publication >(internet and public email would be included) for more than one >year, the device becomes unpatentable." > > >Patent Law states "printed publication." This does not include >the internet because "it is not a fixed media." This was clearly >explained to me by a well known patent examiner, Tom Valone. > >This means that any invention that is put on the internet does >not qualify as printed media. Anyone can take the information >and apply for patent in their name. I doubt in this ! I think the lawyers are involved in the patentation process as well personally and would suspect disinformation. If you give a lecture in Europe (Germany) with an new invention presented can prevent a patent if it is given before the affiliation of the patent. Electronic journals would be not allowed acc. to Bruce Perrault. I think the important point is that the priority of the affiliation is before any witnessed and proven publication or released information. Sincerely Dieter Bauer From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 10:01:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA07564; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:01:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:01:02 -0800 Message-ID: <18841012.947613549930.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:59:09 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey D Norris Reply-To: To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Patent Law in Regards to the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.177.33 Resent-Message-ID: <"Zr1wb2.0.0s1.U_sUu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13592 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Mon, 10 Jan 2000 20:56:16 -0500, nuenergy@cyberportal.net wrote: > "If the invention has been described in a printed publication > (internet and public email would be included) for more than one > year, the device becomes unpatentable." > > > Patent Law states "printed publication." This does not include > the internet because "it is not a fixed media." This was clearly > explained to me by a well known patent examiner, Tom Valone. > > This means that any invention that is put on the internet does > not qualify as printed media. Anyone can take the information > and apply for patent in their name. > > > -Bruce A. Perreault > I would assume that the inventor still has recourse to sue in civil court if he can proove prior discovery on a wide basis on the internet to the satisfaction of a patent judge? That may a iffy situation, as it seems the cost of patents are becoming prohibitive, the reinstatement fees become very prohibitive in their costings. Lots of patents have lost jurisdiction because the filers did not pay these exorbitant fees which multiply in an exponential fashion over time. HDN Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 14:00:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA05605; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:59:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:59:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <387BAA8C.D59AD1E9@csrlink.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:11:25 -0500 From: "Michael S. Johnston" Reply-To: H2OPower@listbot.com Organization: http://H2OPower.listbot.com/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: eagleresearch.com References: <20000104.171823.-422719.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------23CBF8349B050AA09E8A3CAF" Resent-Message-ID: <"vLql3.0.TN1.BVwUu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13593 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------23CBF8349B050AA09E8A3CAF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Me too, same problem. MJ tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > Greetings All, > > I cannot access eagleresearch.com for some reason or other. Whenever I > try to, my computer just sits there with a "Connecting to site..." > message. Any suggestions (other than government censorship)? > > -Tom Grimes > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. --------------23CBF8349B050AA09E8A3CAF Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Michael S. Johnston Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Michael S. Johnston n: ;Michael S. Johnston org: H2OPower email;internet: enki@csrlink.net title: God x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------23CBF8349B050AA09E8A3CAF-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 14:07:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA06992; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:07:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:07:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <387BAC63.F3A1FE74@csrlink.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:19:16 -0500 From: "Michael S. Johnston" Reply-To: H2OPower@listbot.com Organization: http://H2OPower.listbot.com/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, horacex@usa.net Subject: Re: [Re: Al catalysed H2O dissociation] References: <20000104224304.20439.qmail@nw179.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B10A282C408F97A1407EB58B" Resent-Message-ID: <"-XBKn3.0.qi1.jcwUu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13594 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B10A282C408F97A1407EB58B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Did you know that AlOH3 is very hard and when powdered and mixed with (I forget what) also powdered and dropped through the flame of an oxyhydrogen torch, that synthetic rubies of industrial grade are formed? MJ I could find the exact reference I am quoting if anyone wants to know. Horace wrote: > I don't know why not the Al(OH)3. The author writes: 2al+3h2o --> A12 + 3H2, > and mentions Aluminum Oxide many times, so I didn't consider other compounds. > > Would the Al(OH)3 form ? What is more probable Al(OH)3 or Al2O3 ? > What are the properties of the Al(OH)3 ? > > Interestingly, there is an unexplained reference to the acid in the article at > http://layo.com/ > > Horace > > tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > > Horace wrote: > > > > >The reaction can be written as: > > > > > >2(Al) + 3(H2O) --> Al2O3 + 3(H2) "it is not written correctly in the > > article" > > > > Why wouldn't the aluminum form Al(OH)3? The reaction would then be: > > > > 2 Al (s) + 6 H2O (l) ---> 2 Al(OH)3 (s) + 3 H2 (g) > > > > This reaction would consume more H2O (twice as much, specifically) and > > the aluminum product can be treated with acid to release the water used > > (although it would drive up the cost of running). Also, don't catalysts > > participate in a reaction without being changed (as the net result)? If > > the Al is being consumed in the reaction, then it is a fuel (or reactant, > > or reagent; whatever you wish to call it). > > > > -Tom Grimes > > > > P.S.: What is this Brown's Gas that keeps being mentioned? > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 --------------B10A282C408F97A1407EB58B Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Michael S. Johnston Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Michael S. Johnston n: ;Michael S. Johnston org: H2OPower email;internet: enki@csrlink.net title: God x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------B10A282C408F97A1407EB58B-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 11 15:35:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA32511; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:35:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:35:14 -0800 Message-ID: <20000111233509.17869.qmail@.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 11 Jan 00 18:35:09 EST From: Horace To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: Al catalysed H2O dissociation]] CC: enki@csrlink.net X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA32480 Resent-Message-ID: <"o-_WY2.0.ux7.ouxUu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13595 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Yes, rubies, saphirres, etc... are crystalized Al2O3 with some accidental pigment additives. If you could crystalize them perfectly, you could make precious jewelry stones :-) Funny, how such a soft metal like Aluminum can form such a hard oxide (only one step softer than diamond) Horace "Michael S. Johnston" wrote: > Hi, > Did you know that AlOH3 is very hard and when powdered and mixed with (I forget > what) also powdered and dropped through the flame of an oxyhydrogen torch, that > synthetic rubies of industrial grade are formed? > MJ > I could find the exact reference I am quoting if anyone wants to know. > > Horace wrote: > > > I don't know why not the Al(OH)3. The author writes: 2al+3h2o --> A12 + 3H2, > > and mentions Aluminum Oxide many times, so I didn't consider other compounds. > > > > Would the Al(OH)3 form ? What is more probable Al(OH)3 or Al2O3 ? > > What are the properties of the Al(OH)3 ? > > > > Interestingly, there is an unexplained reference to the acid in the article at > > http://layo.com/ > > > > Horace > > > > tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > > > Horace wrote: > > > > > > >The reaction can be written as: > > > > > > > >2(Al) + 3(H2O) --> Al2O3 + 3(H2) "it is not written correctly in the > > > article" > > > > > > Why wouldn't the aluminum form Al(OH)3? The reaction would then be: > > > > > > 2 Al (s) + 6 H2O (l) ---> 2 Al(OH)3 (s) + 3 H2 (g) > > > > > > This reaction would consume more H2O (twice as much, specifically) and > > > the aluminum product can be treated with acid to release the water used > > > (although it would drive up the cost of running). Also, don't catalysts > > > participate in a reaction without being changed (as the net result)? If > > > the Al is being consumed in the reaction, then it is a fuel (or reactant, > > > or reagent; whatever you wish to call it). > > > > > > -Tom Grimes > > > > > > P.S.: What is this Brown's Gas that keeps being mentioned? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > > > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > > > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > --------------------------------------------- > Attachment: vcard.vcf > MIME Type: text/x-vcard > --------------------------------------------- ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 06:56:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA25758; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 06:56:41 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 06:56:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <387C9661.7AD2@cyberportal.net> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:57:37 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Say What is On your Mind!" CC: nuenergy2@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Nu Fuel Cell References: <20000110155505.81059.qmail@hotmail.com> <387A137E.7582@cyberportal.net> <002e01bf5c70$77458300$d805f9d1@multipath> <387BE41A.67B0@cyberportal.net> <387C7B42.6AD7C41F@icon.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WmOhy1.0.MI6.dO9Vu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13596 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Lyn Barnett wrote: > > Hi there All > > New improved is a things consumers are getting immune to but > how about > > "THE fuel cell that REALLY works" - it speaks volumes and very > subtly implies that it is the only one that works... > > Just a suggestion I am beginning to like this Nu Fuel Cell that has been implied in recent posts. In fact, Moray's technology did not use radiation as its source of power. I will call it the Nu Power Fuel Cell, "Extreme Density - Nu Power Fuel Cell." However, it will run down. Moray stated that his unit gave out around 1000 watts per pound of material. I am using better materials that tripples this figure to to around 3000 watts per pound of material. The line has been drawn in regards to what Moray accomplished with his research. In searching out the truth I have gone beyond Moray Physics. My valve is actually a radiation convertor. It offers untold amounts of electrical current. It will be a long time before society can be responsible with this form of power. I suspect that it may be our only saving grace from the oppression that may fall on our heads by the year 2005 (Please do not respond to this 2005 statement). In the mean time a renewable portable power supply is still better than what is now offered to the general public. It could make the electric car practical and many positive things can result. -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 10:22:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA09750; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:22:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:22:30 -0800 From: dave.tingley@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 13:20:53 -0500 Subject: Re: eagleresearch.com Message-ID: <20000112.132054.90.1.dave.tingley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-4,6-31,34 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"qjxop3.0.CO2.bPCVu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13597 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com again, it is http://www.eagle-research.com You were practicing hyphen censorship not the government kind. Dave On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:11:25 -0500 "Michael S. Johnston" writes: > Hi, > Me too, same problem. > MJ > > tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > > > Greetings All, > > > > I cannot access eagleresearch.com for some reason or > other. Whenever I > > try to, my computer just sits there with a "Connecting to site..." > > message. Any suggestions (other than government censorship)? > > > > -Tom Grimes > > ________________________________________________________________ > > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ================================================ dave.tingley@juno.com http://dave_tingley.tripod.com "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." --Thomas Jefferson From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 21:32:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA13557; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:30:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:30:41 -0800 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <93.5c416f.25aebcf2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:30:26 EST Subject: Can micro waves be focused by mag/parabolic reflector? To: energy21@listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 47 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ps1ak.0.gJ3.0CMVu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13598 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi all, Question, Can a parabolic reflector focus micro waves to a small point as is done with solar energy, radio waves, ect. ? Could they be focused by magnetic fields? Any means for that matter. Just wondering. Thanks, Butch From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 21:42:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA17974; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:41:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:41:10 -0800 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.2 on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <93.5c416f.25aebcf2@aol.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:43:38 -0800 (PST) Sender: jim@eskimo.com From: Jim Richardson To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: Can micro waves be focused by mag/parabolic reflector? Cc: jlnlabs@egroups.com, energy21@listbot.com Resent-Message-ID: <"AnJ4b1.0.eO4.sLMVu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13599 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On 13-Jan-2000 HLafonte@aol.com wrote: > Hi all, Question, > Can a parabolic reflector focus micro waves to a small point as is done with > solar energy, radio waves, ect. ? Could they be focused by magnetic fields? > Any means for that matter. Just wondering. > Thanks, > Butch yes, microwaves can be focused by a parabolic reflector, if you want the details re: calculations etc, let meknow, I have a python script I have writtento do a bunch of the calcs for microwave antenna stuff. Magnetic fields? not with any field you are alikely to generate at home :) Jim Richardson Anarchist, pagan and proud of it WWW.eskimo.com/~warlock Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 12 22:18:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA04133; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:16:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:16:54 -0800 Message-ID: <20000113061650.39374.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.227.83] From: "Timothy Flytcher" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Can micro waves be focused by mag/parabolic reflector? Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:16:50 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"uq9yO3.0.U01.LtMVu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13600 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > >Hi all, Question, >Can a parabolic reflector focus micro waves to a small point as is done >with >solar energy, radio waves, ect. ? Could they be focused by magnetic fields? >Any means for that matter. Just wondering. >Thanks, >Butch > Yes a parabolic reflector can concentrate Solar, radio, and Micro waves... but what would you use to reflect magnetic waves??? With solar you use a mirror... radio waves you can use appropriate sizes mesh screen ... But I have yet to see anything that blocks or refects magnetic force... Timothy... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 00:56:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA31882; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:56:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:56:01 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Can micro waves be focused by mag/parabolic reflector? Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 04:06:19 -0500 Message-ID: <20000113090619953.AAA147@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"8A9sM3.0.2o7.WCPVu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13601 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tim writes: >Yes a parabolic reflector can concentrate Solar, radio, and Micro waves... >but what would you use to reflect magnetic waves??? >With solar you use a mirror... radio waves you can use appropriate sizes >mesh screen ... But I have yet to see anything that blocks or refects >magnetic force... >Timothy... You might want to look at a diamagnetic substance like Bismuth. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 06:50:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA13877; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 06:50:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 06:50:46 -0800 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:50:41 -0600 (CST) From: Zack Widup X-Sender: w9sz@bluestem To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Can micro waves be focused by mag/parabolic reflector? In-Reply-To: <20000113061650.39374.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"iD5k31.0.gO3.5PUVu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13602 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Wed, 12 Jan 2000, Timothy Flytcher wrote: > > > >Hi all, Question, > >Can a parabolic reflector focus micro waves to a small point as is done > >with > >solar energy, radio waves, ect. ? Could they be focused by magnetic fields? > >Any means for that matter. Just wondering. > >Thanks, > >Butch > > > Yes a parabolic reflector can concentrate Solar, radio, and Micro waves... > but what would you use to reflect magnetic waves??? > With solar you use a mirror... radio waves you can use appropriate sizes > mesh screen ... But I have yet to see anything that blocks or refects > magnetic force... > Timothy... > There is no such thing as a magnetic wave. If it is a "wave", then it is electromagnetic in nature. They can be transverse in nature (as is commonly used in the world) or longitudinal, as mentioned by Tesla, etc. But they are still electromagnetic. A paraboloid will take energy emanating from the focus and generate an approximately parallel set of rays the diameter of the dish. It will also take an approximately parallel set of rays coming into it and concentrate them at the focus of the dish. I am a radio amateur who has been experimenting with microwaves for years. We have been in the quest of the "perfect feed" for a parabolic dish for a long time. It is very difficult to achieve, as you are dealing with phase patterns arriving at a reflector at varying distances. When I was in grad school I worked on one of the original LIDAR projects. We used an elliptical cylinder with a flash tube at one focus and a dye laser tube at the other focus. All the energy from the flashtube was concentrated on the dye laser. Zack From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 10:17:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA11472; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:17:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:17:44 -0800 Message-ID: <20000113181739.67613.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.227.33] From: "Timothy Flytcher" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Can micro waves be focused by mag/parabolic reflector? Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:17:39 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"qbP4F3.0.9p2.7RXVu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13603 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > >Yes a parabolic reflector can concentrate Solar, radio, and Micro >waves... > >but what would you use to reflect magnetic waves??? > >With solar you use a mirror... radio waves you can use appropriate sizes > >mesh screen ... But I have yet to see anything that blocks or refects > >magnetic force... > >Timothy... > >You might want to look at a diamagnetic substance like Bismuth. > >Knuke Ok... waves was not the right term ... but Bismuth as a reflector??? I picture a simple motor with the piston as one magnet and the head another magnet... have a plate that is 1/2 magnetic reflector and 1/2 non... as the non is between the two the piston is drawn up towards the head (compression phase) then as the piston hits top the disk spins and you have a reflector that drives the piston down (expansion phase)... Free energy??? Timothy... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 11:05:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA00678; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 11:05:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 11:05:20 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 13:56:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Nu Fuel Cell Message-ID: <20000113.135835.-435157.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4,7-8,10-16,18,20-22,29-32,34-35,37-43 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QAfpw1.0.QA.l7YVu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13604 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Bruce Perrault wrote: >Moray stated that his unit gave out around 1000 watts per pound of >material. I am using better materials that tripples this figure to >to around 3000 watts per pound of material. For how long? In other words, how many watt-hours can you get per gram of material? Have you tried measuring the amount of material that is "lost"? >In fact, Moray's technology did not use radiation as its source of power. [later in post] >My valve is actually a radiation convertor. Then your device is fundemantally different from Moray's? >It will be a long time before society can be responsible >with this form of power. I suspect that it may be our only saving grace from >the oppression that may fall on our heads by the year 2005 (Please do not >respond to this 2005 statement). A long time before society is responsible in handling this new power? Didn't you just recently raise a discussion about whether you should keep powerful inventions from the public at large or not and come out on the side of releasing information at all costs? Seems sort of contradictory to me. I won't comment on your predicted date, but without further enlightenment I do not understand what threatening oppression you are talking about. >In the mean time a renewable portable power >supply is still better than what is now offered to the general public. >It could make the electric car practical and many positive things can result. It would be excellent if your invention(s) could accomplish this goal, whatever the working principle may be. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 12:28:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA32206; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 12:28:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 12:28:18 -0800 Message-ID: <002101bf5e04$5caa2d80$b5e728c3@Ardvark> From: "Ardvark" To: References: <20000113181739.67613.qmail@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Can micro waves be focused by mag/parabolic reflector? Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:25:35 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"bdps23.0.6t7.XLZVu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13605 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com A magnetic reflector? There is no such material know to man as yet and I doubt very much that there ever will be, but even if there was, trying to use it in the manner you suggest would be futile as it would take at least the same amount of energy to get the shield in to place as the machine would give out (every action has an equal and opposite re-action). I had a similar idea a while ago, if you had a series of magnets in a circle, with an identical series of magnets in opposition and between this you were to spin a disk with ferrous plates attached to it, timed so that as one plate entered a pair of magnets another would be leaving a pair of magnets, thus cancelling out the force, you would then have a rotating disk requiring little force to rotate it and the magnets would be attracted to the plates and repelled by each other alternately. I set up a test rig to see if it would be viable or if the magnets would interact with each other and create an unforeseen anomaly, but this didn't turn out to be the case, although the force it took to rotate the disk was more than I would has liked, but still within acceptable parameters and I am sure it can be tuned at a later date. The only problem I have now is how to use the oscillating movement of 24 50mm x 50mm x 25mm 35000 gauss neodymium iron boron magnets to drive the disk, then, I believe, that once set in motion this would be a self running machine, although experience has told me not to count my chickens. ----- Original Message ----- From: Timothy Flytcher > Ok... waves was not the right term ... but Bismuth as a reflector??? I > picture a simple motor with the piston as one magnet and the head another > magnet... have a plate that is 1/2 magnetic reflector and 1/2 non... as the > non is between the two the piston is drawn up towards the head (compression > phase) then as the piston hits top the disk spins and you have a reflector > that drives the piston down (expansion phase)... Free energy??? > Timothy... > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 17:58:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA29386; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:57:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:57:59 -0800 X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQskhysvNlhYaVqMD5Q/bE9P9k7OQIVAIvur9+NpMKXb6ojH2+dHob+PjMn From: B777b77@webtv.net (R B) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:57:50 -0500 (EST) To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: BEDINI'S FREE ENERGY GENERATOR Message-ID: <8605-387E829E-5382@storefull-124.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-8430-2565 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Resent-Message-ID: <"_afJw1.0.3B7.cAeVu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13606 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com --WebTV-Mail-8430-2565 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Been experimenting some on the bendini free energy generator. From rereading over his stuff it's seems he was zapping a lead acid battery with high voltage,1-6Mhz. I know this stuff is old to the list, but what is really ever happened with it .Has anyone ever tryed it? If I zapped a car battery with 1-6Mhz of juice is it going to explode? He says it's simple, comments? RB --WebTV-Mail-8430-2565 X-URL-Title: BEDINI'S FREE ENERGY GENERATOR Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit http://www.nidlink.com/~john1/foreward.html --WebTV-Mail-8430-2565-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 18:02:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA00429; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:02:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:02:52 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Can micro waves be focused by mag/parabolic reflector? Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:12:59 -0500 Message-ID: <20000114021259812.AAA66@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"rCSNA2.0.c6.CFeVu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13607 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tim writes: >> Ok... waves was not the right term ... but Bismuth as a reflector??? I >> picture a simple motor with the piston as one magnet and the head another >> magnet... have a plate that is 1/2 magnetic reflector and 1/2 non... as >the >> non is between the two the piston is drawn up towards the head >(compression >> phase) then as the piston hits top the disk spins and you have a reflector >> that drives the piston down (expansion phase)... Free energy??? >> Timothy... I'm not sure if diamagnetic materials actually deform the magnetic field lines surrounding a magnet, but I do know that they oppose them irregardless of the polarity. The effect however, is quite small from what I understand. A good experiment might be to use some of the magnetic field line detector material available from Edmond Scientific, some Bismuth, and see what happens to the field lines when the magnet is placed next to the Bismuth. It would be interesting to know if there is any visible deformation in the field lines. As for your proposed motor, I don't think that the diamagnetic strength of Bismuth is strong enough to do much in the way of any real work, although you may see some visible oscillation which may have applications somewhere. There was a young woman that came up with a working motor several years ago that utilized Gadolinium. The working principle was based on the unique Curie temperature of Gadolinium, so it was more or less a thermal device that cycled as the temperature of the material changed. I haven't looked into this recently, and like I said, some years have passed since I first came upon it. There were some very large corporations that wanted to buy it, as well. I might have to update my files on that one. Will let you know what I find. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 18:09:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA00409; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:09:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 18:09:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <387E8466.5834@cyberportal.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:05:26 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com Subject: Re: Nu Fuel Cell References: <20000113.135835.-435157.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"q-2jy.0.46.4LeVu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13608 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > > Bruce Perrault wrote: > >Moray stated that his unit gave out around 1000 watts per pound of > >material. I am using better materials that tripples this figure to > >to around 3000 watts per pound of material. > > For how long? In other words, how many watt-hours can you get per gram > of material? Have you tried measuring the amount of material that is > "lost"? 1 kilo gram will output about 75 Megajoules or 21KWH. However, this may be indefinately extended if hydrogen is supplied to the material externally. > > >In fact, Moray's technology did not use radiation as its source of > power. > [later in post] > >My valve is actually a radiation convertor. > > Then your device is fundemantally different from Moray's? I have developed two types of devices as a result of my research into Moray's device. My findings now show that my work with radiation exceeds Moray's work. In the beginning I was lead to believe that Moray's device had to be powered by radioactive material from my own research. When in fact, I have gone beyond Moray Physics. This did not sink in until recently. I have also surpassed the output of his tubes. If we are to take his statement that for every pound of material his deviced produced 1KW then I have indeed passed this limit, this being done without radioactive material. Call it chemical over-unity if you wish. > > >It will be a long time before society can be responsible > >with this form of power. I suspect that it may be our only saving grace > from > >the oppression that may fall on our heads by the year 2005 (Please do > not > >respond to this 2005 statement). > > A long time before society is responsible in handling this new power? > Didn't you just recently raise a discussion about whether you should keep > powerful inventions from the public at large or not and come out on the > side of releasing information at all costs? Seems sort of contradictory > to me. I won't comment on your predicted date, but without further > enlightenment I do not understand what threatening oppression you are > talking about. Recent events in the the USA have put a pit in my gut. Yes, I still feel that it is important to get the non-radioative device out. However, my work with the radioactive version would allow anyone to seperate radium or U-235 from ores for about $200.00 This would put a weapon of great destruction in the wrong hands. There are already micro-nuclear bombs that are about the size of A.M. radios. These devices can not be detected by airport security. Material about the size of a quarter stick of gum could do alot of damage. We are fast approaching where we Americans are servants of the state, and you know what this is called. I will not go further with this statement because it is not the topic of this list. > > >In the mean time a renewable portable power > >supply is still better than what is now offered to the general public. > >It could make the electric car practical and many positive things can > result. > > It would be excellent if your invention(s) could accomplish this goal, > whatever the working principle may be. > > -Tom Grimes The technologies would bring humankind into a new golden age. The implications takes my breath away. On the other side of the coin there are people who wish to retain control, and this weighs heavy on my heart. -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 13 20:05:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA19704; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:05:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:05:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:05:47 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Patent Law in Regards to the Internet In-Reply-To: <18841012.947613549930.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"1kB4a.0.kp4.T2gVu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13609 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com George Wiseman makes some good points about patents: http://www.eagle-research.com/nopatent/patfree.html ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 00:03:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA04902; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 00:03:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 00:03:42 -0800 Message-ID: <20000114080340.61584.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.227.157] From: "Timothy Flytcher" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: BEDINI'S FREE ENERGY GENERATOR Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 00:03:40 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ERKVU3.0.VC1.TXjVu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13610 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com The 1-6Mhz is a frequency not a power level.... but I know from experience that a batters goes boom!!! real easy... so I would suggest using a heavy plastic container and remote leads... that way if it goes boom you only have to put up with the noise... Good luck and let us know what you find... My real question is were is bendini now??? If I made a real discovery like this I would would build one for my back yard and just set back an make money from the local power company... Timothy... > Been experimenting some on the bendini free energy generator. From >rereading over his stuff it's seems he was zapping a lead acid battery >with high voltage,1-6Mhz. I know this stuff is old to the list, but >what is really ever happened with it .Has anyone ever tryed it? > If I zapped a car battery with 1-6Mhz of juice is it going to explode? > He says it's simple, comments? RB > >http://www.nidlink.com/~john1/foreward.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 07:32:35 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07866; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 07:32:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 07:32:30 -0800 From: JNaudin509@aol.com Message-ID: <3b.3f28b3.25b09b85@aol.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:32:21 EST Subject: The B-2 "Spirit" and the Biefeld-Brown effect... To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA07743 Resent-Message-ID: <"2Y9Bm2.0.mw1.D6qVu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13611 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dear all, For those who are interested in the Electrogravitics technologies applied to advanced propulsion, I recommend you strongly to read the excellent article from Bill Gunston in the "AIR Intenational" Vol 58 - January 2000 ( 770306563103 ) £2.95, Canadian $8.50 This article " Military Power " is about : "Engines for military aircraft have to meet a set of criteria different from those of commercial jets and turboprops. There are also far more variations, as Bill Gunston OBE FRAeS explains"... "..... It appeared that the gravity field could not only propel aircraft to supersonic speed with propulsive efficiency greater than 1 but could also lift them independtly of the atmosphere..." " ( a coloured picture ) Plan view of the B-2 illustrating the positively-charged ionised air of the aircraft and the negatively-charged air in the jet exhaust. Cowling on either side of the cockpit feed large amount of air to the flame-jet high voltage generators enclosed withing the B2's body..." (Mike Badrocket/ AIR International ) You must read this article, if you are interested in the Electrogravitics technologies... You may also visit my web site about the ARDA Project for some experimental testing results and proof of concept devices on the Biefeld-Brown effect at : http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/advprop.htm Best Regards Jean-Louis Naudin Email: Jnaudin509@aol.com Main Web site: http://go.to/jlnlabs eGroup:http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 14 13:15:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA23839; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:15:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:15:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <387F91CB.2B84@cyberportal.net> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:14:51 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com Subject: A Chance to be FREE! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IKVCu2.0.Kq5.U7vVu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13612 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com If this place turns out to be for real you know where I am going! http://www.hypertextstudios.com/e/amazon/index.html -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 09:24:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA17355; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 09:24:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 09:24:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3880AD79.DFF@cyberportal.net> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 12:25:13 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com Subject: Fuel Cell Question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nkSnF2.0.3F4.wqAWu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13613 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Question to provoke positive topic discussion: How feasible would it be to use alcohol to power fuel cells, providing that cheap, efficient fuel cells could be obtained? -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 15 17:20:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA14328; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 17:20:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 17:20:03 -0800 Message-ID: <38811CBD.F2C84BD2@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 17:19:57 -0800 From: eks1 Reply-To: eks1@earthlink.net Organization: Systems Research Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freenrg-L@eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Question References: <3880AD79.DFF@cyberportal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"reoa_.0.jV3.3pHWu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13614 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com "Bruce A. Perreault" wrote: > Question to provoke positive topic discussion: > > How feasible would it be to use alcohol to power > fuel cells, providing that cheap, efficient fuel cells > could be obtained? > > -Bruce A. Perreault Not much more feasible than it currently is to run standard Otto-cycle ICE's on alcohol fuels. Unfortunately the way alcohols are produced hasnt changed a great deal in 400 years, with the exception of pressure-synthesized methanol. Assuming you were to take advantage of the cold winter in Wisc or Minn. the efficiency of the distilling process could be improved almost 100% in the making of ethanol fuels - this essentially means allowing Nature to freeze the majority of the mash, letting the ethanol be extracted with the outlay of only the energy to pump the material to and from an outdoor freeze-cell. The yield is lower purity than a typical first-pass distillation, but it requires no investment of heat to do the work of making 100 proof/50% ethanol. Fuel grade alcohols are always distilled at least three times anyway, to limit the amount of water they contain. Ethanol especially is very hygroscopic. But I digress..the INFRASTRUCTURE needed to fuel a fleet of alcohol-powered vehicles isnt sufficiently mature here in the US to cutover from gasoline. The EPA estimates that the existing alcohol industry could supply about 20% of the need. -Erik From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 07:57:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA25608; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 07:56:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 07:56:57 -0800 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 10:56:49 EST Subject: For your information (design) To: energy21@listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_aa.aa57d0c3.25b34441_boundary" X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 47 Resent-Message-ID: <"sU9Vr2.0.1G6.8fUWu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13615 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com --part1_aa.aa57d0c3.25b34441_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, See attached drawing. Red is non-magnetic, blue is ferrite, black is coil. Will post operational description after testing is complete. Comments or questions about device welcome. Thanks, Butch LaFonte --part1_aa.aa57d0c3.25b34441_boundary Content-Type: image/gif; name="4.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="4.gif" R0lGODlhbAJVAfcAAAAAAAAA/729vf8AAP97AP////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XacdK2.0.ce7.9KWWu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13616 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Bruce A. Perreault wrote: > Question to provoke positive topic discussion: > > How feasible would it be to use alcohol to power > fuel cells, providing that cheap, efficient fuel cells > could be obtained? > > -Bruce A. Perreault There are already fuel cells that can efficiently supply a common household with a reasonable amount of power. However, these cells are extremely bulky and are unsuitable for use in vehicles. Perhaps a better way of producing alcohol (ethanol, grain alcohol, as opposed to methanol, which was mentioned in another post) would be to synthesize, or just extract from yeast cultures, invertase and zymase to convert the raw sugars from vegetable sources into ethanol. Then the enzymes could be removed and reused. I don't know how feasible this is. It seems that if it was easy to do, then it would have already been done, considering that science has known this process, which yeast uses, for a long time. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 21:51:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA10959; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:51:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:51:50 -0800 Message-ID: <20000117055147.74269.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.28.94.48] From: "Timothy Flytcher" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Question Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:51:47 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"RYLk21.0.8h2.rtgWu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13617 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Isn't this illegal in most places... I believe they call it moonshine... and it is very simple... But very illegal in my part of the world... Timothy... > Perhaps a better >way of producing alcohol (ethanol, grain alcohol, as opposed to methanol, >which was mentioned in another post) would be to synthesize, or just >extract from yeast cultures, invertase and zymase to convert the raw >sugars from vegetable sources into ethanol. Then the enzymes could be >removed and reused. I don't know how feasible this is. It seems that if >it was easy to do, then it would have already been done, considering that >science has known this process, which yeast uses, for a long time. > > -Tom Grimes > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 16 22:04:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA15373; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:04:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:04:12 -0800 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.2 on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000117055147.74269.qmail@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:07:27 -0800 (PST) Sender: jim@eskimo.com From: Jim Richardson To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Question Resent-Message-ID: <"DFcsH2.0.5m3.R3hWu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13618 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On 17-Jan-2000 Timothy Flytcher wrote: > Isn't this illegal in most places... I believe they call it moonshine... and > it is very simple... But very illegal in my part of the world... > Timothy... > > I am not sure where you are, but in the US, the manufacture of alchohol for fuel is legal, the fuel must be rendered undrinkable, usually by the addition of a small amount of gasoline, or methanol. However, the BATF are just a anal and stupid re: alchohol as they are with respect to firearms, and just because you obey the law does't mean they won't stomp you. >> Perhaps a better >>way of producing alcohol (ethanol, grain alcohol, as opposed to methanol, >>which was mentioned in another post) would be to synthesize, or just >>extract from yeast cultures, invertase and zymase to convert the raw >>sugars from vegetable sources into ethanol. Then the enzymes could be >>removed and reused. I don't know how feasible this is. It seems that if >>it was easy to do, then it would have already been done, considering that >>science has known this process, which yeast uses, for a long time. >> >> -Tom Grimes >> > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Jim Richardson Anarchist, pagan and proud of it WWW.eskimo.com/~warlock Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 07:45:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA10025; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 07:45:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 07:45:05 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:36:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Question Message-ID: <20000117.103629.-503265.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-7,14-15,21-27 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ilwea2.0.YS2.0apWu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13619 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:51:47 PST "Timothy Flytcher" writes: >Isn't this illegal in most places... I believe they call it >moonshine... and >it is very simple... But very illegal in my part of the world... >Timothy... > No, it is not illegal. In fact, it has not even been done, to my knowledge. Yeast has been used for millenia to produce ethanol, but my idea was to get rid of the yeast and ferment the sugar solution "manually" using the same process as yeast. The reaction would probably proceed quicker, in my opinion, because the fermentation taking place would be solely for the waste product, whereas the yeast is eventually killed by it, and not to extract energy for survival. Moonshine is a fermented solution of sugars, usually from corn, that has been distilled using home-made apparatus. It is illegal in the US to distill alcohol for beverage purposes without a license (and paying the "sin tax", etc.). However, this has not stopped people from doing it, and you don't get in trouble unless you try to sell the product. And no, I don't know this from first-hand experience, in case you were wondering. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 07:56:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA13992; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 07:56:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 07:56:42 -0800 Message-ID: <38833BB7.235737EE@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 07:56:40 -0800 From: eks1 Reply-To: eks1@earthlink.net Organization: Systems Research Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Question References: <20000117055147.74269.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"y0P3P2.0.XQ3.wkpWu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13620 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Timothy Flytcher wrote: > Isn't this illegal in most places... I believe they call it moonshine... and > it is very simple... But very illegal in my part of the world... > Timothy... Oh BFD "illegal"! All you need is a Fuel Distiller's License..$45/yr from BATF ref "mother Earth News" - 1973, June (i think) 'Home Alcohol Fuel from yard wastes' From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 10:21:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA03041; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:20:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:20:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38835D98.C5514B1@gorge.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:21:12 -0800 From: tom@gorge.net (Tom Miller) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: A Chance to be FREE! References: <200001170551.VAA11029@mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"280nJ3.0.Ll.VrrWu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13621 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com A few questions to ask yourself in your "due diligence:" 1. How many million dollars will it take to sufficiently bribe the government to leave you alone? 2. Will the "Shining Path" or the "Tupac Amaru" be the first guerilla group to attack your compound? 3. Will they massacre you outright, or take you all hostage? 4. If the latter, how many years will you have to rot in jungle prison camp before you are ransomed? Just food for thought. T. Miller From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 10:22:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA08613; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:22:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:22:18 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000117132055.00a64450@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: rymel@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:22:00 -0500 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: Rymel Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Question In-Reply-To: References: <20000117055147.74269.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"VN_1S1.0.P62.PtrWu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13622 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com moonshine....isn't that somethin like 181 proof (or are my friends crazy?)? i was also to believe that by drinking pure alcohol you'd simply die upon ingestion, so what's the point of adding something? At 10:07 PM 1/16/00 -0800, you wrote: >On 17-Jan-2000 Timothy Flytcher wrote: > > Isn't this illegal in most places... I believe they call it > moonshine... and > > it is very simple... But very illegal in my part of the world... > > Timothy... > > > > > > >I am not sure where you are, but in the US, the manufacture of alchohol for >fuel is legal, the fuel must be rendered undrinkable, usually by the addition >of a small amount of gasoline, or methanol. However, the BATF are just a anal >and stupid re: alchohol as they are with respect to firearms, and just because >you obey the law does't mean they won't stomp you. > > > >> Perhaps a better > >>way of producing alcohol (ethanol, grain alcohol, as opposed to methanol, > >>which was mentioned in another post) would be to synthesize, or just > >>extract from yeast cultures, invertase and zymase to convert the raw > >>sugars from vegetable sources into ethanol. Then the enzymes could be > >>removed and reused. I don't know how feasible this is. It seems that if > >>it was easy to do, then it would have already been done, considering that > >>science has known this process, which yeast uses, for a long time. > >> > >> -Tom Grimes > >> > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >Jim Richardson > Anarchist, pagan and proud of it >WWW.eskimo.com/~warlock > Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 11:32:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA03365; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:32:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:32:28 -0800 Message-ID: <003501bf6120$da026120$0a00a8c0@skot.emeraldnet.net> From: "skot" To: Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Question Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:27:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Resent-Message-ID: <"DJsFi3.0.Uq.BvsWu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13623 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Whether you die upon ingestion depends on the amount ingested. Most people just feel like they're dying after taking a half a shot. The point of adding something is that moonshine can be mixed to make a nice drink, when poison is added you can't do this. scottb -----Original Message----- From: Rymel >moonshine....isn't that somethin like 181 proof (or are my friends >crazy?)? i was also to believe that by drinking pure alcohol you'd simply >die upon ingestion, so what's the point of adding something? > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 11:59:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA11479; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:59:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:59:27 -0800 From: "Red-Leader" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:02:48 -0600 Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Question Priority: normal In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.20000117132055.00a64450@pop.mindspring.com> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12a) Message-Id: <20000117140254.3ceec699.in@smtp.dabney.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"gKQ5e.0.Bp2.VItWu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13624 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > moonshine....isn't that somethin like 181 proof (or are my friends > crazy?)? i was also to believe that by drinking pure alcohol you'd simply > die upon ingestion, so what's the point of adding something? Pure "moonshine" is about 200 proof, pure alcohol. They add water or beer to make it drinkable. (I get this from a Foxfire book, not experience by the way) :-) Emmett Hawkins From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 12:08:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA14648; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:08:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:08:17 -0800 Message-ID: <002301bf6126$8e75ce80$8660fea9@hal-9000> Reply-To: "dwenbert" From: "dwenbert" To: Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Question & Applications Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:07:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"M56R5.0.ma3.mQtWu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13625 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com >On Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:51:47 PST "Timothy Flytcher" >writes: >>Isn't this illegal in most places... I believe they call it moonshine... and it is very simple... But very illegal in my >part of the world...>>Timothy... >> > No, it is not illegal. In fact, it has not even been done, to my knowledge. Yeast has been used for millenia to >produce ethanol, but my idea was to get rid of the yeast and ferment the sugar solution "manually" using the >same process as yeast. The reaction would probably proceed quicker, in my opinion, because the >fermentation taking place would be solely for the waste product, whereas the yeast is eventually killed by it, >and not to extract energy for survival. Gentlemen: 1) There is extensive research being conducted on both ex-vivo fermentation and ex-vivo photosynthesis, using analogues of the bioprocesses involved. You can get to some of the background through the DoE NREL website, if you burrow deep enough. 2) As for the 'alcohol fuel cell' that someone here suggested, they have been around for several years now and will probably be commercially available this year. There are practical fuel cells operating today off of Methanol running electric vehicles; in fact, they even have one fuel cell which dissociates Gasoline (much larger more complex molecule) to react it cleanly to power an electric motor sufficient to drive the vehicle. Methanol and Gasoline fueled, fuel-cell Powered vehicles have been run in alternative fuel vehicle races for a number of years now; the annual competitions receive a lot of publicity and are written up in Popular Science, and on the network evening news. 3) The Pantone GEET, MIT Plasmatron, TTL Aquafuel/Magnegas, and EnerTech Slurrycarb systems all convert waste complex hydrocarbons into useful, environmentally desireable fuels, using regenerative electrodynamic and thermodynamic processes, and without the temperamental biology of yeast or algae or bacterial cultures to contend with, and can be designed at any level of throughput desired. The real challenge is not 'How' to break down organics - including waste - into hydrogen, methane, alcohol, etc., but rather 'Where' and in 'What' sort of mechanical contrivance, and 'When' in relation to the production of the wastes and consumption of the energy evolved from them (i.e. storage, transport, etc.). We are developing an integrated resource management system for the average home which will convert all of its sewage and garbage (less glass bottles) into electricity, heating, ventilation, air conditioning, and pure distilled hot water. It will use a hybrid process, incorporating both a combined cycle, combustion & steam turbine, together with a hydromagnetic (MHD/Magnetohydrodynamic) converter pickup loop. The biomass gasification will be acomplished using processes and devices that have been discussed on this list previously, which are now moving toward commercialization. Fuel Cells are a nice idea, and will have their place, but in many circumstances, they aren't practical. YES, you can now buy or build fuel cells to run on complex hydrocarbon fuels like alcohol, propane, or gasoline. They have a high conversion efficiency relative to conventional engines, and produce very little heat and virtually no pollution. BUT, as a practical matter, much of the energy demand of the average home can be satisfied with thermal energy directly, with minimal conversion losses (i.e. water & space heating, air conditioning). Once you accommodate these with waste heat from a generating process, substantially less electricity is actually required to operate the house. A properly implemented waste-to-energy/combined heat & power ("WTE/CHP" in power parlance) Cogeneration system will accomplish this. We are simply implementing it with an integration of new technologies that scale well to facilitate finely distributed generation. Zeropoint Overunity/Free Energy devices must make it from the benchtop breadboard to the integrated systems prototype level if they are ever to become commercially viable. They can be 'tweaked' and optimized later, in a concurrent development cycle. We've had enough 'proofs of concept' of so many of these things, its time to move on....... Cordially, David L. Wenbert Incandesic Cellular Energy Division The Great Power & Light Company A Gaian Renaissance Organisation From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 12:44:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA25262; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:44:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:44:21 -0800 Message-ID: <18626467.948141767941.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:42:47 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey D Norris Reply-To: To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Can micro waves be focused by mag/parabolic reflector? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.177.110 Resent-Message-ID: <"FKPmj2.0.j86.aytWu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13626 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:50:41 -0600 (CST), freenrg-l@eskimo.com wrote: > On Wed, 12 Jan 2000, Timothy Flytcher wrote: > > > > > > >Hi all, Question, > > >Can a parabolic reflector focus micro waves to a small point as is done > > >with > > >solar energy, radio waves, ect. ? Could they be focused by magnetic fields? > > >Any means for that matter. Just wondering. > > >Thanks, > > >Butch > > > > > Yes a parabolic reflector can concentrate Solar, radio, and Micro waves... > > but what would you use to reflect magnetic waves??? > > With solar you use a mirror... radio waves you can use appropriate sizes > > mesh screen ... But I have yet to see anything that blocks or refects > > magnetic force... > > Timothy... > > > (Zack's reply) > There is no such thing as a magnetic wave. If it is a "wave", then it is > electromagnetic in nature. They can be transverse in nature (as is > commonly used in the world) or longitudinal, as mentioned by Tesla, etc. > But they are still electromagnetic. > to quote from a non technical text entitled College Physics authored by Franklin Miller Jr., " We see that a radio wave is really two simultaneous waves traveling in the same region of space. This is the significance of the term electromagnetic. A purely electric wave is impossible; likewise, a purely magnetic wave is impossible. A changing magnetic field gives rise to an induced electric field, and a changing electric field gives rise to an induced magnetic field. This symmetrical relationship between electric and magnetic fields provides the interaction needed to propagate a wave. In a sense, the two waves keep each other going by the mutual interaction between the changing E-field and the changing B field." HDN Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freeworld.excite.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 15:23:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA18524; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:23:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:23:49 -0800 Message-ID: <20000117231705.1627.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.227.7] From: "Timothy Flytcher" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Question Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:17:05 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"OC8KR2.0.AX4.2IwWu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13627 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com >From: Rymel >moonshine....isn't that somethin like 181 proof (or are my friends >crazy?)? i was also to believe that by drinking pure alcohol you'd simply >die upon ingestion, so what's the point of adding something? > Moonshine... simply put it is fermented corn mush that is then distilled alcohol... as to proof... it all depends on how you distill it... Timothy... and yes I do have some first hand knowledge of this... LOL... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 18:20:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA21014; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:20:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:20:11 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:11:11 -0500 Subject: higher grade gas from ethanol Message-ID: <20000117.211113.-491593.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,11-17 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"goYzH.0.B85.QtyWu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13628 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Greetings All, According to a quick calculation, 1 Liter of ethanol liberates 18 times the energy of 1 Liter of octane, the primary constituent of gasoline, when burned. So, approximately 1/2 cup (I know it's an English measure, but it's convenient in this case) of denatured alcohol from your local hardware store can be added to 10 gallons of 87 grade (87% octane) gasoline to boost it to 92 grade. Since the price difference between these two grades is about $0.20/gallon, then it is very cost effective to add alcohol (unless the alcohol costs $65/gallon or more). Does anyone happen to know what, if any, are the adverse effects of doing this? How close is the flash point of ethanol to that of gasoline? -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 18:39:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA27821; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:39:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:39:27 -0800 From: Bmd2323@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:39:15 EST Subject: Re: higher grade gas from ethanol To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Resent-Message-ID: <"aMNV81.0.co6.V9zWu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13629 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I don't know how effective it is, but some of the adverse effects of this are that it can rot the rubber used in the gaskets and fuel lines in your engine and on some model cars it can damage some of the pollution control devices. Not to mention that since most cars aren't designed to operate on such a mixture, it'll cause them to run poorly as the computer controls won't know what to make of it. Additionally, it can cause more unburned fuel to be passed through to the catalytic convertor, shortening its life if you're running the engine on a higher octane than its designed to run on. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 18:46:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA15970; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:45:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:45:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.2 on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000117.211113.-491593.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:48:37 -0800 (PST) Sender: jim@eskimo.com From: Jim Richardson To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: higher grade gas from ethanol Resent-Message-ID: <"gug7m1.0.Rv3.5FzWu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13630 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On 18-Jan-2000 tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > Greetings All, > > According to a quick calculation, 1 Liter of ethanol liberates 18 times > the energy of 1 Liter of octane, the primary constituent of gasoline, > when burned. So, approximately 1/2 cup (I know it's an English measure, > but it's convenient in this case) of denatured alcohol from your local > hardware store can be added to 10 gallons of 87 grade (87% octane) > gasoline to boost it to 92 grade. Since the price difference between > these two grades is about $0.20/gallon, then it is very cost effective to > add alcohol (unless the alcohol costs $65/gallon or more). Does anyone > happen to know what, if any, are the adverse effects of doing this? How > close is the flash point of ethanol to that of gasoline? > > There are a couple of issues with adding alchohol to gasoline to boost performance. 1) Alchohol (of any type) is hygroscopic, that is, it will absorb water from its environment, this is not a problem in engines designed for it, but is definately a problem with most automotive engines. Ranging from rust in the fuel system, to seperation in the tank, resulting in the system ingesting water. (an annoyance with a carb, can be pretty expensive with a fuel injection system.) 2) Methanol eats many natural rubbers, and will do a number on some cars fuel system, although most modern cars use synthetics that are immune. 3) Most engines running at 8.5 to 1 or so compression, (the majority of older automotive engines) will see less actual improvement over 87% that the numbers would indicate. Upping the compression to 9-1 or better will help, but brings it's own side effects. However, many newer cars come with 9 or 9.5-1 engines that will take advantage of a mixed fuel (The 2000 Taurus has a multi fuel option that they claim will go from 100 % Gasoline, to a 15-85 Gas-Ahol mix with no adjustments required.) 4) For best effect, the alchohol should be added and mixed properly, you can usually simply add the alchohol to a nearly empty fuel tank before filling up at the pump. Most of the commercial octane boosters are simply methanol, (or in some cases, nitro methane) and they do have some benefits, but they are overpriced (IMHO) Rolling your own may be cheaper, even with the tax, but unless your car is tweaked to take advantage of it, you won't see much improvement. Jim Richardson Anarchist, pagan and proud of it WWW.eskimo.com/~warlock Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 18:58:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA03813; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:58:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:58:27 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: higher grade gas from ethanol Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:58:19 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000117.211113.-491593.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> In-Reply-To: <20000117.211113.-491593.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA03785 Resent-Message-ID: <"sfbgJ2.0.Ux.JRzWu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13631 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:11:11 -0500, tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: >Greetings All, > > According to a quick calculation, 1 Liter of ethanol liberates 18 times >the energy of 1 Liter of octane, [snip] As ethanol is essentially already partially oxidised, this doesn't sound right. I would expect slightly less rather than more. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 20:06:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA28132; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:06:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 20:06:54 -0800 Message-ID: <3883E6AC.EBE@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 23:06:04 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nuenergy@listbot.com CC: nuenergy2@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Liquid Light References: <20000117160608.42382.qmail@hotmail.com> <3883C5CE.20B0@cyberportal.net> <01b501bf615b$d4732f60$2505f9d1@multipath> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vH2YA1.0.It6.TR-Wu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13632 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Rex Doane wrote: > <> > > Bruce - > > I have followed this site for over a year thru the Vortex list, and > corresponded with the site owner, JL Naudin, on a few subjects. He states > that this experiment is related to "the applications of a One Atmosphere > Uniform Glow Discharge Plasma (OAUGDP) to aerodynamic boundary layer and > flow control." and I would take that at face value. He has always seemed > very sincere, and he may make a good ally. It appears that he has found the same effect that I discovered back in 1989. I am using the same principle in my with my own research. Yes, he could make a wonderful ally. He appears to be on the same mindset with me. > > JLN's passion at the moment is "ElectroHydroDynamics ( E.H.D.) may open new > ways in advanced propulsion. An EHD device uses a direct conversion of > electrical energy into kinetic energy." at > http://members.xoom.com/jlnlabs/html/advprop.htm . Very interesting. > > The circuit that he uses is very similar to your radiant energy circuit, > but this is just a standard configuration for driving a High Voltage > transformer. I don't see any other similarities, though. Isn't your > innovation the design and application of the Radiant Energy Valve itself? You can get the high-voltage many different ways. Moray's original circuit was around 6Khz. JLN Labs are using 4Khz. I find it more convient to use 25Khz. because this is the resonant frequency of most television flyback transformers. Although, I have bought a lot of flybacks from a source in England and they resonate at around 170Khz. OK, I will let the cat out of the bag because JLN Labs has posted their version of their glow wires, and I don't want to be accused of stealing the concept. It was going to be a surprise for my July conference, but here goes... These glow wires can replace my star-mode in the radiant energy device. I had posted; "Star-mode electrodes can be used to slowly discharge the capacitors. An advanced discharge component of my own design will be publically tested and validated for the first time." This was taken off the site on December 26, 1999. The glow wires will effectively replace the star-mode electrodes. These glow wires can also be used in a transformer to get what I call "liquid light." Some of Tesla's patents appear to use this same concept. These show no spark-gaps. The glow wire principle could explain the lack of a spark-gap in these patents. The discharge from a Tesla coil using this concept will leap to an extended finger but will not produce any sensation of shock. The streamer is a solid, purple beam of light. It can be drawn out by pulling you finger away from the coil. If you keep your finger there too long it will get burned by the heat. I now recall that i had built my first "liquid light" in 1983. I did not realize the that this effect was from the glow discharge until 1989. December of this year I was successful in replacing the star-mode electrodes with this effect. Perhaps JLN Labs has had similar experiences. I welcome a dialog between us. My valve and the Moray original concept are seperate discoveries. -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 21:13:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA19405; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:13:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:13:37 -0800 Message-ID: <01e401bf6173$3cc5ea00$19b57ed8@mrand> From: "mrand" To: Cc: , Subject: Re: Liquid Light Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:16:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"wiI9q3.0.6l4.0Q_Wu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13633 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Bruce, >> These glow wires can replace my star-mode in the radiant >energy device. +++ Can energy be extracted from the glow wires for ou energy output? The current uses are for boundary layer effects for airplanes, cars and ships. Regards, Michael >I had posted; "Star-mode electrodes can be used to slowly discharge the >capacitors. An advanced discharge component of my own design will be >publically tested and validated for the first time." This was taken off >the site on December 26, 1999. The glow wires will effectively replace >the >> From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 17 23:48:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA17403; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 23:48:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 23:48:15 -0800 From: dtmiller@midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: higher grade gas from ethanol Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:48:38 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Reply-To: dtmiller@midiowa.net Message-ID: <388519b6.121646626@mail.midiowa.net> References: <20000117.211113.-491593.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> In-Reply-To: <20000117.211113.-491593.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA17380 Resent-Message-ID: <"TxmK_3.0.pF4.-g1Xu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13634 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi All, On Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:11:11 -0500, tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: >Does anyone >happen to know what, if any, are the adverse effects of doing this? How >close is the flash point of ethanol to that of gasoline? There are effectively NO adverse effects from using a 10% ethanol, 90% gasoline mixture. Most people in Iowa have been using it for 20 years (and more), with no apparent problems in any gasoline engines built in the past 30 years (including lawn mower and small tractor engines). "Gasohol" has the advantage of not having any water freeze-ups in the winter (due to the absorption of water by the ethanol). -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (CDP, KB0ZDF) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 05:04:31 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA26460; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:04:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:04:19 -0800 Message-ID: <002c01bf61b4$bad51ec0$89dc82d1@felis-catus> From: "Felis Catus" To: Subject: Re: higher grade gas from ethanol Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:05:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"oMLuj2.0.LT6.IJ6Xu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13635 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Jim: Take a look at this, and give their patent a good read.(You can access it on the IBM server through their website) The system is designed for a gasoline or other fuel motor generator AC system for your home. Running such a system aganst a 'stock' or store/manufadtured system will very quickly give you an accurate measurement of the efficiency of this. I saw the inventors burn a mixture of half waste crankcase oil and half water at the second to last International Tesla Society(now defunct) conference in Colorado several years ago. There was no grey smoke 'pollution' emission as was to be expected=the exhaust was completely clear and there was no smell of carbon monoxide. Molley Pantoine told me the exhause was mostly carbon dioxide,water vapour, nitrogen,and just a trace of unburned hydrocarbons which had the odd smell of old time theatre popcorn! This device conforms to EPA pollution guidelines past the year 1016-and this system can burn literally anything and still do so! Build for home power generation, or agricultural equiptment(will work on diesal engines)-forget about automobiles. There is a thicket of 'hidden' auto insurance and Federal regulations that prevent you from legally doing so. Paul and Molley Pantoine who exhibited at the Tesla event where we met have had their US Patent granted. #5794601. They have released FREE full working plans to construct a household AC motor generator of up to 20 horsepower: http://www.friend.ly.net/GEET/plans.htm GEET System will work with gasoline or diesal engines, and with ANY fuel. Oil&water can be used mixed half and half-even in an IC engine! A detergent or surfactant is required to do this: it has a trade name of Aqua-mate2 manufactured or distributed by Hydrotex in Dallas,Texas. The Pantoines have put their patent under 'open license', and ask only a small royalty for installation/plans for of larger units, eg: on a farm in Manitoba or Iowa in power generation or agricultural equiptment. . felis catus, a.k.a. geoffrey tilga felis@frontiernet.net 1/08/00 -----Original Message----- From: Jim Richardson To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Monday, January 17, 2000 9:56 PM Subject: RE: higher grade gas from ethanol > >On 18-Jan-2000 tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: >> Greetings All, >> >> According to a quick calculation, 1 Liter of ethanol liberates 18 times >> the energy of 1 Liter of octane, the primary constituent of gasoline, >> when burned. So, approximately 1/2 cup (I know it's an English measure, >> but it's convenient in this case) of denatured alcohol from your local >> hardware store can be added to 10 gallons of 87 grade (87% octane) >> gasoline to boost it to 92 grade. Since the price difference between >> these two grades is about $0.20/gallon, then it is very cost effective to >> add alcohol (unless the alcohol costs $65/gallon or more). Does anyone >> happen to know what, if any, are the adverse effects of doing this? How >> close is the flash point of ethanol to that of gasoline? >> >> > >There are a couple of issues with adding alchohol to gasoline to boost >performance. > 1) Alchohol (of any type) is hygroscopic, that is, it will absorb water from >its environment, this is not a problem in engines designed for it, but is >definately a problem with most automotive engines. Ranging from rust in the >fuel system, to seperation in the tank, resulting in the system ingesting >water. (an annoyance with a carb, can be pretty expensive with a fuel injection >system.) >2) Methanol eats many natural rubbers, and will do a number on some cars fuel >system, although most modern cars use synthetics that are immune. >3) Most engines running at 8.5 to 1 or so compression, (the majority of >older automotive engines) will see less actual improvement over 87% that the >numbers would indicate. Upping the compression to 9-1 or better will help, but >brings it's own side effects. However, many newer cars come with 9 or 9.5-1 >engines that will take advantage of a mixed fuel >(The 2000 Taurus has a multi fuel option that they claim will go from 100 % >Gasoline, to a 15-85 Gas-Ahol mix with no adjustments required.) >4) For best effect, the alchohol should be added and mixed properly, you can >usually simply add the alchohol to a nearly empty fuel tank before filling up >at the pump. > >Most of the commercial octane boosters are simply methanol, (or in some cases, >nitro methane) and they do have some benefits, but they are overpriced (IMHO) >Rolling your own may be cheaper, even with the tax, but unless your car is >tweaked to take advantage of it, you won't see much improvement. > > > >Jim Richardson > Anarchist, pagan and proud of it >WWW.eskimo.com/~warlock > Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS. > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 05:42:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA01239; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:42:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:42:28 -0800 From: Charlie Hodgson Reply-To: Charlie_Hodgson@s2systems.com Organization: Society for Real Time To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: higher grade gas from ethanol Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:48:21 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <20000117.211113.-491593.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> In-Reply-To: <20000117.211113.-491593.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00011808531500.13705@cougar> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA01220 Resent-Message-ID: <"nRpYt3.0.GJ.4t6Xu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13636 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > Does anyone > happen to know what, if any, are the adverse effects > of doing this? How close is the flash point of ethanol to that of gasoline? The only adverse effect is that for cars that had been run strictly on gasoline in the past, the ethanol has a habit of disolving the gunk in the fuel system and will clog up your fuel filter pretty quick. Once changed though, no further problems. Charlie -- Who is Don Alphonso, and what's all this about tweezers? From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 05:44:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA02714; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:44:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:44:41 -0800 Message-ID: <38846E4A.7CBB@cyberportal.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:44:42 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Liquid Light References: <01e401bf6173$3cc5ea00$19b57ed8@mrand> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5aCW.0.Jg.9v6Xu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13637 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com mrand wrote: > > Hi Bruce, > > > > > These glow wires can replace my star-mode in the radiant > > energy device. > > +++ Can energy be extracted from the glow wires for OU energy output? The > current uses are for boundary layer effects for airplanes, cars and ships. No for over-unity... Yes for super-unity. It is just a very efficient way to replace a spark-gap. I haven't a clue as to its use for a boundary layer effect. JLN labs is doing a great job. It would seem to me if you were to use several alternate wires and apply pulsating high-voltage dc to the wires then a propulsion effect could be obtained. It is just an idea so please do not hold me to it. Perhaps JLN labs could run somea tests and share its findings. The effect to create a boundry layer appears to be valid, it is a relativelistic lubricant. What needs to be done to advance the effect is to add forward thrust. -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 05:52:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA06910; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:52:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:52:14 -0800 From: Charlie Hodgson Reply-To: Charlie_Hodgson@s2systems.com Organization: Society for Real Time To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Question Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:53:37 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <20000117140254.3ceec699.in@smtp.dabney.com> In-Reply-To: <20000117140254.3ceec699.in@smtp.dabney.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00011809031601.13705@cougar> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA06886 Resent-Message-ID: <"wgLgU2.0.sh1.E07Xu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13638 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Red-Leader wrote: > > moonshine....isn't that somethin like 181 proof (or are my friends > > crazy?)? i was also to believe that by drinking pure alcohol you'd simply > > die upon ingestion, so what's the point of adding something? > > Pure "moonshine" is about 200 proof, pure alcohol. They add water > or beer to make it drinkable. (I get this from a Foxfire book, not > experience by the way) :-) Pure ETOH (ethanol) IS 200 proof (due to the fact that a 50/50 mixture of ETOH/H2O will burn, and that's a 100% proof that the mixture is actually alcohol). Moonshine can be, at most, 190 proof. This is due to the hygroscopic nature of ethanol and the inability of distilation (and most other methods) to remove the remaining 5% water. In order to remove the these last remenents of water, you ned to dry the ETOH with something that is more hydrophilic. Benzene is usually the agent of choice. Charlie -- Who is Don Alphonso, and what's all this about tweezers? From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 09:05:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA15015; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:05:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:05:00 -0800 Message-ID: <001401bf61d5$6d8c41e0$0a00a8c0@skot.emeraldnet.net> From: "skot" To: Subject: Re: higher grade gas from ethanol Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:59:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Resent-Message-ID: <"S2Eok3.0.Vg3.yq9Xu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13639 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com The entire northwest ( or more ) has been running 10% ethanol for about 5 years. When it first came out the octane number on the pump at one gas station was 1 or 2 higher for each grade. After it became semi-permanant they changed to a lower base gasoline mix so the octane rating after adding the ethanol was back at the standard octane numbers. One adverse effect is that it absorbs water and when the water content in the fuel reaches 2% or so the water stays with the ethanol but separates from the gasoline. Then for a short time your running on alcohol and water until it's gone then for the rest of the tank your running 85 octane :( scottb -----Original Message----- From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Monday, January 17, 2000 6:17 PM Subject: higher grade gas from ethanol >Greetings All, > > According to a quick calculation, 1 Liter of ethanol liberates 18 times >the energy of 1 Liter of octane, the primary constituent of gasoline, >when burned. So, approximately 1/2 cup (I know it's an English measure, >but it's convenient in this case) of denatured alcohol from your local >hardware store can be added to 10 gallons of 87 grade (87% octane) >gasoline to boost it to 92 grade. Since the price difference between >these two grades is about $0.20/gallon, then it is very cost effective to >add alcohol (unless the alcohol costs $65/gallon or more). Does anyone >happen to know what, if any, are the adverse effects of doing this? How >close is the flash point of ethanol to that of gasoline? > > -Tom Grimes > >mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com >mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com >(for attachments) > >___________________________________________________________ _____ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 09:20:19 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA21127; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:20:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:20:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3884A0C4.87905AF6@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:20:04 -0800 From: eks1 Reply-To: eks1@earthlink.net Organization: Systems Research Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: nitromethane vs nitroethane References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EW3Xe1.0.0A5.A3AXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13640 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Jim Richardson wrote: > Most of the commercial octane boosters are simply methanol, (or in some cases, > nitro methane) No, not nitromethane, which BTW doesnt mix with gasoline very well. A very few of these products contain miniscule amounts of NITROETHANE, which mixes very well with gasoline, and can do as little for you as get rid of the grime in the fuel system (oh yess..a great solvent/degreaser!) or in greater % boost the BHP up to 55%...just before the rods go thru the pan! > and they do have some benefits, but they are overpriced (IMHO) > Rolling your own may be cheaper, even with the tax, but unless your car is > tweaked to take advantage of it, you won't see much improvement. Yep...and besides where can you really use the power? In traffic? Heh... > > Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS. Good point! I see that Linus is about to unwrap his latest at www.transmeta.com I wonder what it'll be? (ref: microprogramming techniques circ 1970) ;) Another Satisfied Linux customer, Erik From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 12:00:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA14004; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:00:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:00:38 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:19:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Question Message-ID: <20000118.112027.-433331.2.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4,8-14 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-XxOD1.0.jQ3.cPCXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13641 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Charlie Hodgson wrote: >Pure ETOH (ethanol) IS 200 proof (due to the fact that a 50/50 >mixture of ETOH/H2O will burn, and that's a 100% proof >that the mixture is actually alcohol). I was under the impression that the proof system was invented just to make non-mathematically oriented (or just plain drunk) customers think that an alcoholic beverage contains more alcohol than it really does by simply doubling the percentage rating of alcohol. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 12:00:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA14128; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:00:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 12:00:44 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:08:12 -0500 Subject: Re: higher grade gas from ethanol Message-ID: <20000118.112027.-433331.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-8,14-15,23-24,31-35 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"afWH_1.0.TS3.hPCXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13642 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:58:19 +1100 Robin van Spaandonk writes: >On Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:11:11 -0500, tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > According to a quick calculation, 1 Liter of ethanol liberates 18 times >the energy of 1 Liter of octane, > >As ethanol is essentially already partially oxidised, this doesn't sound >right. I would expect slightly less rather than more. That is what I had expected, too. However, I looked up the heat of combustion for octane and it is about 3.8 times that of ethanol. It turns out there is a misprint in the chemistry textbook I used in my initial calculation. So, since liquid ethanol is about 3 times denser than gasoline (I used the density of gasoline because it is primarily octane), octane does release just a little more energy than ethanol. Reference has been made to the fact that ethanol is hygroscopic. It has also been stated that this property may cause water to separate in the fuel tank. Wouldn't the water be carried along with the ethanol to the combustion chamber? After all, octane is hydrophobic and so I would think that the water molecules would tend to stay associated with the ethanol. Since the combustion of hydrocarbons, including octane, produces gaseous water, than water produced, or carried, by ethanol in the same place shouldn't hurt anything. The reason I had asked about the autoignition point of ethanol was because I was afraid that it might cause knocking. But it is actually a little higher than octane (363 C as opposed to 220 C). In my car, at least, I will not have to worry about the fuel computer getting confused. It is a '78 Volvo, and there is no fuel computer. The only thing that might be affected is the fuel/air ratio, which is, ideally, 1:4.3 for ethanol rather than 1:18 for octane. mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 13:41:37 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA18257; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:41:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:41:24 -0800 Message-ID: <001a01bf61fc$9c9497e0$56d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:40:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF61D2.B30F1600" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"klyD32.0.2T4.3uDXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13643 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF61D2.B30F1600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What substance is created when "Clorox Bleach" and Hydrogen Peroxide = are mixed? ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF61D2.B30F1600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    What = substance is=20 created when "Clorox Bleach" and Hydrogen Peroxide are=20 mixed?
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF61D2.B30F1600-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 13:45:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA16715; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:44:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:44:27 -0800 (PST) From: Charlie Hodgson Reply-To: Charlie_Hodgson@s2systems.com Organization: Society for Real Time To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, tgrimes1@juno.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fuel Cell Question Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:48:10 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <20000118.112027.-433331.2.tgrimes1@juno.com> In-Reply-To: <20000118.112027.-433331.2.tgrimes1@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00011816541705.13705@cougar> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id NAA16428 Resent-Message-ID: <"LkETu3.0.v44.pwDXu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13644 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > Charlie Hodgson wrote: > >Pure ETOH (ethanol) IS 200 proof (due to the fact that a 50/50 > >mixture of ETOH/H2O will burn, and that's a 100% proof > >that the mixture is actually alcohol). > > I was under the impression that the proof system was invented just to > make non-mathematically oriented (or just plain drunk) customers think > that an alcoholic beverage contains more alcohol than it really does by > simply doubling the percentage rating of alcohol. No, this dates back to (at least) the 1700's, before the days of all the agencies that are supposed to look after us consumers. Somebody attempts to sell you alcohol, and you check to see if it burns. If it burns, its '100 proof' (it could be 200 proof - that's besides the point). I took it to be a simple go/no go test. Charlie -- Who is Don Alphonso, and what's all this about tweezers? From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 17:30:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA26584; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 17:30:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 17:30:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.2 on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3884A0C4.87905AF6@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:58:53 -0800 (PST) Sender: jim@eskimo.com From: Jim Richardson To: eks1 Subject: Re: nitromethane vs nitroethane Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"FTK6g.0.FV6.aEHXu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13645 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On 18-Jan-2000 eks1 wrote: > > > Jim Richardson wrote: > >> Most of the commercial octane boosters are simply methanol, (or in some >> cases, >> nitro methane) > > No, not nitromethane, which BTW doesnt mix with gasoline very well. A very > few > of these products contain miniscule amounts of NITROETHANE, which mixes > very well with gasoline, and can do as little for you as get rid of the grime > in > the > fuel system (oh yess..a great solvent/degreaser!) or in greater % boost the > BHP > up to 55%...just before the rods go thru the pan! Oops, you're right, I was thinking (if you can call it that) of the fuel used in the little Cox RC airplane engines. >> and they do have some benefits, but they are overpriced (IMHO) >> Rolling your own may be cheaper, even with the tax, but unless your car is >> tweaked to take advantage of it, you won't see much improvement. > > Yep...and besides where can you really use the power? In traffic? Heh... > >> >> Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS. > > Good point! I see that Linus is about to unwrap his latest at > www.transmeta.com > I wonder what it'll be? (ref: microprogramming techniques circ 1970) ;) > > Another Satisfied Linux customer, > > Erik well, I for one am waiting with bated breath to see if it's hype or substance, I am hopeful. Jim Richardson Anarchist, pagan and proud of it WWW.eskimo.com/~warlock Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 19:07:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA29277; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:07:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:07:30 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 21:53:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide Message-ID: <20000118.215708.-491673.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-3,11-17 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Vp3_d1.0.M97.ofIXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13646 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Chris O'Barr wrote: >What substance is created when "Clorox Bleach" and Hydrogen Peroxide are mixed? Since the active ingredients of chlorine bleach and hydrogen peroxide are NaClO (aq) and H2O2 (aq), respectively, it would be my opinion that nothing (or not much) would happen. Both chemicals are oxidizing agents, and I'm not sure that the difference in oxidation potentials is great enough to produce any appreciable reaction. However, it is possible that the inactive ingredients in the bleach (which is only about 5% NaClO) could react with the H2O2, though I think that unlikely as well. Have you tried it? What are you trying to produce? -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 18 20:09:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA17026; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:09:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:09:39 -0800 Message-ID: <00ad01bf6233$7793eae0$3fb67ed8@mrand> From: "mrand" To: "freenrg-l" Cc: Subject: Re: Liquid Light Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:12:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"gKKL4.0.s94.2aJXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13647 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Bruce, >No for over-unity... Yes for super-unity. It is just a very efficient >way to replace a spark-gap. +++ What do you mean, a way to replace a spark-gap? Like the spark-gap in a Tesla coil? If so, how is this done? Regards, Michael From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 12:39:57 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08285; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:39:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:39:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <388620DE.26A6@cyberportal.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:38:54 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com Subject: Re: Liquid Light References: <00ad01bf6233$7793eae0$3fb67ed8@mrand> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LZttP.0.J12.g3YXu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13648 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com mrand wrote: > > Hi Bruce, > > >No for over-unity... Yes for super-unity. It is just a very efficient > >way to replace a spark-gap. > > +++ What do you mean, a way to replace a spark-gap? Like the spark-gap in > a Tesla coil? If so, how is this done? > > Regards, Michael Yes, "like the spark-gap in a Tesla coil." It is real simple... you wrap two insulated (plastic) wires together just like JLN Labs has done for their bondary layer experiments. The more winds that you wind the more capacitance that you will have. If you wind enough turns you can even throw out the capacitor used in the Telsa coil tank circuit. The purple glow discharge that occurs is what replaces your spark-gap in your primary tank circuit. What I had wound a few coils of wire in the early 1980s onto a small tesla coil to obtain what I called "liquid light." My power supply was taken from one of those bug zappers that attracts bugs with a ultraviolet type lamp. Recently I have revised this design... now I use two primary wire coils to energize my secondary coil. It is a pretty nifty transformer design. What I think is occurring is voltage transformation rather than the conventional electromagetic scheme that has been used. Correct me if I am wrong. Feedback on this concept if more than welcome. Share with me as I have shared with you. -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 13:13:27 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20382; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:13:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:13:13 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01bf62c1$d63b8ba0$4ad666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: References: <20000118.215708.-491673.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:12:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"HmfPb3.0.K-4.eZYXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13649 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com You misunderstood my statement. I was aware that they react, but I didn't know what I had after the reaction. The reaction produces heat and a lot of gas very quickly, the gas is probably chlorine. I still don't know what is left after the reaction. Any more suggestions? P.S.- Thanks for the intended help. ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 9:53 PM Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide > Chris O'Barr wrote: > >What substance is created when "Clorox Bleach" and Hydrogen Peroxide are > mixed? > > Since the active ingredients of chlorine bleach and hydrogen peroxide > are NaClO (aq) and H2O2 (aq), respectively, it would be my opinion that > nothing (or not much) would happen. Both chemicals are oxidizing agents, > and I'm not sure that the difference in oxidation potentials is great > enough to produce any appreciable reaction. However, it is possible that > the inactive ingredients in the bleach (which is only about 5% NaClO) > could react with the H2O2, though I think that unlikely as well. Have > you tried it? What are you trying to produce? > > -Tom Grimes > > mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com > mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com > (for attachments) > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 13:39:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA31054; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:39:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:39:41 -0800 Message-ID: <38862F32.72D9@cyberportal.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:40:02 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com Subject: Re: Liquid Light (corrected english) References: <00ad01bf6233$7793eae0$3fb67ed8@mrand> <388620DE.26A6@cyberportal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3aZ-b1.0.7b7.SyYXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13650 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > > mrand wrote: > > > > Hi Bruce, > > > > >No for over-unity... Yes for super-unity. It is just a very efficient > > >way to replace a spark-gap. > > > > +++ What do you mean, a way to replace a spark-gap? Like the spark-gap in > > a Tesla coil? If so, how is this done? > > > > Regards, Michael Yes, "like the spark-gap in a Tesla coil." It is real simple... you wrap two insulated (plastic) wires together justlike JLN Labs has done for their bondary layer experiments. The more winds that you have the greater the capacitance beteen the winds. If you have enough turns then you can even throw out the capacitor used in the Telsa coil tank circuit. The purple glow discharge that occurs is what replaces your spark-gap in the primary tank circuit. Back in the early 1980s I had wound a few coils of wire onto a small tesla coil to obtain what I called "liquid light." My power supply was taken from one of those bug zappers that attracts bugs. It was one of those types that used an ultraviolet lamp. Recently I have revised this design... now I use two primary wire coils to energize my secondary coil. It is a pretty nifty transformer design. Voltage transformation seems to occur through electrostatic induction rather than the conventional electromagetic induction that predominates in transformers used to date. Correct me if I am wrong. Feedback on this concept is more than welcome. Share with me as I have shared with you. > -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 14:18:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA13467; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:18:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:18:41 -0800 Message-ID: <000a01bf62ca$fce8e320$a8d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: Subject: Smelting Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:17:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF62A1.13742A20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"BElAK1.0.4I3._WZXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13651 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF62A1.13742A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What devices (besides smelters) are used to melt...stuff? = Elaboration on stuff: metals, salts, all elements and compounds. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF62A1.13742A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    What devices = (besides smelters)=20 are used to melt...stuff? Elaboration on stuff: metals, salts, all = elements and=20 compounds.
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF62A1.13742A20-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 14:40:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA23935; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:40:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:40:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38863C66.AD372FE5@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:36:22 -0500 From: Henry Curtis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Smelting References: <000a01bf62ca$fce8e320$a8d666ce@default> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1B33F5642AEB90C4CB889B20" Resent-Message-ID: <"1fZYS1.0.qr5.DrZXu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13652 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com --------------1B33F5642AEB90C4CB889B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a small electric furnace it will go up to about 2400 degrees F. It melts all kinds of stuff. Silver, Gold, Glass, Aluminum, and other stuff. Not hot enough for Iron or Platinum though. Henry Curtis Chris O'Barr wrote: > What devices (besides smelters) are used to melt...stuff? Elaboration on stuff: > metals, salts, all elements and compounds. --------------1B33F5642AEB90C4CB889B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a small electric furnace it will go up to about 2400 degrees F.  It melts all kinds of stuff.  Silver, Gold, Glass, Aluminum, and other stuff.  Not hot enough for Iron or Platinum though.

Henry Curtis

Chris O'Barr wrote:

    What devices (besides smelters) are used to melt...stuff? Elaboration on stuff: metals, salts, all elements and compounds.
--------------1B33F5642AEB90C4CB889B20-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 15:52:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA29775; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:52:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:52:43 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Smelting Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:03:03 -0500 Message-ID: <20000120000303359.AAA281@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"bdOGF1.0.-G7.7vaXu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13653 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Chris writes: > What devices (besides smelters) are used to melt...stuff? Elaboration on stuff: metals, salts, all elements and compounds. Grainger has a good welding text that shows a bunch of different ways in which to melt stuff, and a lot of the melting temps for various alloys, chemicals, etc.. Torches, ovens, induction, and resistance methods are discussed. After looking through it though, you'll want to consult with some experts for each specific material before melting anything, really, because a lot of stuff will give off harmful fumes even if you don't burn it. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 16:33:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA29575; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:33:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:33:15 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 11:33:02 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5pjc8sk2d2b2t94srir3kptfdvkhn07kgl@4ax.com> References: <20000118.215708.-491673.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> <000b01bf62c1$d63b8ba0$4ad666ce@default> In-Reply-To: <000b01bf62c1$d63b8ba0$4ad666ce@default> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA29510 Resent-Message-ID: <"MOfGH2.0.xD7.AVbXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13654 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:12:04 -0500, Chris O'Barr wrote: > You misunderstood my statement. I was aware that they react, but I >didn't know what I had after the reaction. The reaction produces heat and a >lot of gas very quickly, the gas is probably chlorine. I still don't know >what is left after the reaction. Any more suggestions? [snip] If the gas produced is a greenish colour, then it is chlorine. If transparent, then oxygen (I suspect the latter). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 17:02:25 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA09985; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:02:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:02:18 -0800 Message-ID: <006701bf62e2$752d57a0$8bb47ed8@mrand> From: "mrand" To: Subject: Re: Liquid Light (corrected english) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:04:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"uE_nP.0.wR2.QwbXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13655 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Bruce, The explanation for the "glow discharge" was due to the low voltage 1kV to 40kV, low frequncy and little to no current. In Tesla coils the voltage, frequency and currents are higher that then goes into the "filamentary discharge" region. See http://www.peakpeak.com/~terryf/tesla/experiments/modact/modact.html for Tesla coil measurements. Maybe with a small Tesla coil a glow discharge spark gap could work though. Regards, Michael Correct me if I am wrong. >Feedback on this concept is more than welcome. Share with me as I have >shared with you. > > >> -Bruce A. Perreault > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 17:19:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA15646; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:19:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:19:00 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:08:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide Message-ID: <20000119.201053.-424471.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,4,6-10,15-26 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RN6eA3.0.Nq3.4AcXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13656 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:12:04 -0500 "Chris O'Barr" writes: > You misunderstood my statement. I was aware that they react, but I >didn't know what I had after the reaction. The reaction produces heat and a >lot of gas very quickly, the gas is probably chlorine. I still don't know >what is left after the reaction. Any more suggestions? > >P.S.- Thanks for the intended help. ;-) The wording of your post implied that no experiment had been done. However, you could test to se if the gas is chlorine or not. Just take a whiff of it (VERY carefully). If it has no odor, try to burn it. Also check for a precipitate and any change in the color of the solution. These simple tests may help determine what is formed. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 17:56:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA12524; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:56:11 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:56:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000f01bf62e9$507f8660$83d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: References: <20000119.201053.-424471.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:54:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"d291i1.0.R33.nicXu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13657 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Does anyone have an idea on what the liquid left after the reaction is? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 8:08 PM Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide > On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:12:04 -0500 "Chris O'Barr" > writes: > > You misunderstood my statement. I was aware that they react, but I > >didn't know what I had after the reaction. The reaction produces heat > and a > >lot of gas very quickly, the gas is probably chlorine. I still don't > know > >what is left after the reaction. Any more suggestions? > > > >P.S.- Thanks for the intended help. ;-) > > The wording of your post implied that no experiment had been done. > However, you could test to se if the gas is chlorine or not. Just take a > whiff of it (VERY carefully). If it has no odor, try to burn it. Also > check for a precipitate and any change in the color of the solution. > These simple tests may help determine what is formed. > > -Tom Grimes > > mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com > mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com > (for attachments) > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 18:02:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA29948; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:02:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:02:14 -0800 Message-ID: <001701bf62ea$37f47460$83d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: References: <20000120000303359.AAA281@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Smelting Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:01:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"zxUPg1.0.kJ7.bocXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13658 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I have a pretty good gas mask. It will keep out chlorine, lead fumes, asbestos, etc. I used to do experiments involving noxious fumes without any mask, I would just hold my breath, run away from what I was doing, get some fresh air and walk back. That was a very unorganized, unreliable, and irritating method though. By the way, I have a smelter, but it only gets hot enough for lead (it was ment for making sinkers) and there is only so much you can do with lead. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Smelting > Chris writes: > > What devices (besides smelters) are used to melt...stuff? Elaboration > on stuff: metals, salts, all elements and compounds. > > Grainger has a good welding text that shows a bunch of different ways in > which to melt stuff, and a lot of the melting temps for various alloys, > chemicals, etc.. Torches, ovens, induction, and resistance methods are > discussed. After looking through it though, you'll want to consult with > some experts for each specific material before melting anything, really, > because a lot of stuff will give off harmful fumes even if you don't burn it. > > Knuke > > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke@LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 18:04:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA30915; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:04:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:04:19 -0800 Message-ID: <001f01bf62ea$818e01e0$83d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: References: <20000119.201053.-424471.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:03:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"hFi8r.0.dY7.YqcXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13659 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I am not going to willingly "take a whiff" of chlorine. I have had bad experiences with such things in the past (cringe). ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 8:08 PM Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide > On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:12:04 -0500 "Chris O'Barr" > writes: > > You misunderstood my statement. I was aware that they react, but I > >didn't know what I had after the reaction. The reaction produces heat > and a > >lot of gas very quickly, the gas is probably chlorine. I still don't > know > >what is left after the reaction. Any more suggestions? > > > >P.S.- Thanks for the intended help. ;-) > > The wording of your post implied that no experiment had been done. > However, you could test to se if the gas is chlorine or not. Just take a > whiff of it (VERY carefully). If it has no odor, try to burn it. Also > check for a precipitate and any change in the color of the solution. > These simple tests may help determine what is formed. > > -Tom Grimes > > mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com > mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com > (for attachments) > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 19:02:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA21376; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:02:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:02:31 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:02:16 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000119.201053.-424471.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> <001f01bf62ea$818e01e0$83d666ce@default> In-Reply-To: <001f01bf62ea$818e01e0$83d666ce@default> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA21329 Resent-Message-ID: <"qgLQQ1.0.vD5.6hdXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13660 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:03:11 -0500, Chris O'Barr wrote: > I am not going to willingly "take a whiff" of chlorine. I have had bad >experiences with such things in the past (cringe). [snip] If you stand well back, and wave it toward your nose once, with your hand, you should get enough to tell whether or not it is chlorine. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 19 23:05:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA21365; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:05:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:05:09 -0800 From: Bmd2323@aol.com Message-ID: <97.f03e44.25b80da0@aol.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 02:05:04 EST Subject: Re: Smelting To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Resent-Message-ID: <"wr6oe3.0.kD5.aEhXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13661 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com The best source I've found for information on smelting is Lindsay's Publications. If you want to know how to work with metal, they've got a book that will tell you what you need to know. If they don't carry it, you don't need it. One of their books tells you how to build a FULL SIZE locomotive engine circa 1890s! (It even gives you the patterns you need to make castings for the wheels!) They also carry books on other subjects as well, such as Tesla coils, Tesla's other inventions, John Keely, and all sorts of odd stuff. You can order a catalog from them for a $1, or check out their web site. Snail mail address is: Lindsay Publications, Inc. PO Box 538 Bradley, IL 60915-0538 Internet address is www.lindsaybks.com I've ordered a bunch of stuff from them and they've got some of the best service in the business. Brian Drake Bmd2323@aol.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 00:25:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA06514; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:24:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 00:24:50 -0800 From: MKSBoysal@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 03:24:38 EST Subject: Free energy and free information! To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Resent-Message-ID: <"-332d3.0.Yb1.HPiXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13662 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Konzen electric pulse motor Last updated 1/189/2000 http://homepages.go.c om/homepages/e/n/z/enzok/ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 08:05:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA06000; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:05:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:05:33 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:42:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide Message-ID: <20000120.105636.-491681.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-3,21-22,28-34 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YiQwo3.0.eT1.C9pXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13663 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com In response to m inquiry as to what gases are evolved, Chris O'Barr wrote: >Does anyone have an idea on what the liquid left after the reaction is? How the heck do you expect anyone to figure out what is left if you won't even give any indication of the gases that evolved and any precipitates that may form?! It is pointless to just ask something like that without giving any additional information. Robin van Spaandonk suggests it might be O2, but unless you test it, we won't know for sure. Try putting a glowing splinter of wood in the gas (you know, light it and blow it out to form an ember), if it catches fire in the gas, it is probably O2. Chlorine gas is green, as Mr. van Spaandonk said, if it is in high enough concentrations. If you were to only react a very small amount of the reagents (bleach and H2O2) and folow the wafting procedure Mr. van Spaandonk said, you could determine whether it is Cl2 or not. You could also use this to see if any ammonia is generated from a reaction with the inactive ingredients in the bleach. If neither of the preceding determine what the gas is, put a lighted match in the gas to see if it CO2. If it is, then the match will be extinguished. The gas could also be water vapor. Hold a cold mirror over the reaction and see if a condensate forms. With these ways, and others, you can be more sure of the identity of the gas(es) evolved. Since Mr. van Spaandonk has suggested that the gas is probably O2, I think that the reaction may just cause H2O2, which is unstable, to decompose into H2O and O2 (2 H2O2 (aq) <--->>> 2 H2O (l) + O2 (g) ). Also, since preparations of H2O2 that are found in stores are only 3%, not much of anything should be formed. Unless, of course, you managed to get a hold of something stronger. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 08:41:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA21257; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:41:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:41:15 -0800 Message-ID: <000701bf6365$175ed1c0$d424fea9@FS11> From: "techlab" To: "Free Energy" Subject: Plasma and Drag Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:40:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"7v3vp2.0.-B5.hgpXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13664 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com A University doing research advanced of JLN's efforts, check it out. http://oaugdp.engr.utk.edu/plasma/ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 10:15:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA24093; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:15:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:15:07 -0800 Message-ID: <006c01bf6371$88b6d140$0a00a8c0@skot.emeraldnet.net> From: "skot" To: Subject: Re: Free energy and free information! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:09:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Resent-Message-ID: <"qsBkh1.0.Mu5.h2rXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13665 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com He may have something but he hasn't made it self running yet... scottb -----Original Message----- From: MKSBoysal@aol.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Thursday, January 20, 2000 12:21 AM Subject: Free energy and free information! >Konzen electric pulse motor > > Last updated 1/189/2000 >http:/ /homepages.go.c >om/homepages/e/n/z/enzok/ > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 10:22:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA28146; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:22:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:22:12 -0800 Message-ID: <38875287.3815@cyberportal.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:23:03 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Say What is On your Mind!" CC: freenrg-L@eskimo.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com Subject: Re: U.F.O. Power References: <38873EC2.CB8F4E37@csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Z4REQ1.0.ht6.J9rXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13666 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Michael, I strongly suspect that our military complex is behind this. It is a fact that they are holding secrets that are light years ahead of the public. It is our money... we should be demanding that nothing will be kept secret from "WE THE PEOPLE." The murder mindset must be quelled before it does us all in. -Bruce A. Perreault Michael S. Johnston wrote: > > Hi All, > What could be more exotic than discovering the power source of those > mischievous little "Visitors" that have been plaguing our skies for > untold millennia? In Jacques Vallee's book "Passage to Magonia" he > traces various stories, legends and myths back as far as recorded > history goes and came to some interesting conclusions. Not only were the > current abduction stories similar to these but also the vehicles > described. One thing that stood out for me was his idea that this > phenomenon seems to appear to the human observer to be always something > just beyond prevailing technological capabilities of the time. For > example, in the 1800's they were thought to be "airships" (blimps, > dirigibles) and sure enough, shortly thereafter, we had blimps. Later on > we saw them as jet powered, then nuclear powered. Now we are assuming > inter-dimentional travel. > Another aspect of this is that, during reported encounters, the > occupants of these vehicles are often reported as speaking to their > abductees either verbally or telepathically ( I'm not even going to go > there). During these conversations the abductees often ask how the ships > are powered. In Response, the occupants usually tell them something that > again, relates to the technology of the time. Or soon to emerge > technology. I mention this because, in reading modern abduction reports, > I have often seen water mentioned as being a part of this power source. > I recall one abductees report as stating that the power unit featured > two "tubes" of water which ringed the ship. These tubes being side by > side and rotating in opposite directions. > Think about it for a minute. What would happen in a setup like that? > Do we even know? What if the water in each tube was appositely ionized? > What if a high energy charge was put through the system? > I didn't mean to get stuck on electrolysis like this. I had hoped > that the conversation would explore new areas. It hasn't really so I > thought I'd write this up as a new avenue. The focus is not supposed to > be on UFO's. It is intended to be in theorizing what such a setup would > do. Maybe that isn't even their power source at all. Maybe they (if they > exist) are giving us periodic "hints". If so let's think about every > possible angle of the thing. What if you created a generator out of > water filled tubing? What would be the result? Would it behave EXACTLY > like a metal conductor? Would some laws not apply and perhaps others be > discovered? > I think it is worth some debate. > MJ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 12:10:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA32623; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:10:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:10:19 -0800 Message-ID: <38876BBE.7DCB@cyberportal.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:10:38 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nuenergy@listbot.com CC: nuenergy2@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Sneak Product Preview (for list members only) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VxVim2.0.ez7.hksXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13667 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com To All List members and Friends, http://www.nuenergy.org/fuelcell.htm Best Regards, Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 12:30:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA07875; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:30:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:30:48 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Free energy and free information! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:41:17 -0500 Message-ID: <20000120204117609.AAA278@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"bdPdG.0.sw1.t1tXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13668 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Scottb writes: >He may have something but he hasn't made it >self running yet... > > scottb And if he never gets it going, he can always fall back on his ad copy writing skills. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 13:38:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA31545; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:37:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:37:59 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01bf638e$75c1bc40$81d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: References: <20000119.201053.-424471.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> <001f01bf62ea$818e01e0$83d666ce@default> Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:36:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"4MQ_9.0.oi7.s0uXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13669 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thanks for helping in what ways you could everyone, but I would still like to know what the chemical name of whats left after "Clorox Bleach" and Hydrogen Peroxide react is. No more info on the gas please, thank you anyway. ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 10:02 PM Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide > On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:03:11 -0500, Chris O'Barr wrote: > > > I am not going to willingly "take a whiff" of chlorine. I have had bad > >experiences with such things in the past (cringe). > [snip] > If you stand well back, and wave it toward your nose once, with your hand, > you should get enough to tell whether or not it is chlorine. > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 13:53:48 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06136; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:53:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:53:40 -0800 Message-ID: <001b01bf6390$a7f73620$81d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: References: <20000120.105636.-491681.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:52:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"FGiyo3.0.nV1.ZFuXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13670 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I truly appreciate your message, you are absolutely right. The gas (at least for the most part) is oxygen, but how do I know other gases aren't released in smaller quantities. Can anyone tell me the complete ingredients for Hydrogen Peroxide and "Clorox Bleach". By the way, I need more help in the way of what...well, you know, I'm not going to keep going over it again an again. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 10:42 AM Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide > In response to m inquiry as to what gases are evolved, Chris O'Barr > wrote: > >Does anyone have an idea on what the liquid left after the reaction is? > > How the heck do you expect anyone to figure out what is left if you > won't even give any indication of the gases that evolved and any > precipitates that may form?! It is pointless to just ask something like > that without giving any additional information. Robin van Spaandonk > suggests it might be O2, but unless you test it, we won't know for sure. > Try putting a glowing splinter of wood in the gas (you know, light it and > blow it out to form an ember), if it catches fire in the gas, it is > probably O2. Chlorine gas is green, as Mr. van Spaandonk said, if it is > in high enough concentrations. If you were to only react a very small > amount of the reagents (bleach and H2O2) and folow the wafting procedure > Mr. van Spaandonk said, you could determine whether it is Cl2 or not. > You could also use this to see if any ammonia is generated from a > reaction with the inactive ingredients in the bleach. If neither of the > preceding determine what the gas is, put a lighted match in the gas to > see if it CO2. If it is, then the match will be extinguished. The gas > could also be water vapor. Hold a cold mirror over the reaction and see > if a condensate forms. With these ways, and others, you can be more sure > of the identity of the gas(es) evolved. > > Since Mr. van Spaandonk has suggested that the gas is probably O2, I > think that the reaction may just cause H2O2, which is unstable, to > decompose into H2O and O2 (2 H2O2 (aq) <--->>> 2 H2O (l) + O2 (g) ). > Also, since preparations of H2O2 that are found in stores are only 3%, > not much of anything should be formed. Unless, of course, you managed to > get a hold of something stronger. > > -Tom Grimes > > mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com > mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com > (for attachments) > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 14:49:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA24290; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:47:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:47:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001501bf638f$246168e0$81d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: References: <97.f03e44.25b80da0@aol.com> Subject: Re: Smelting Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:41:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZUlEj.0.Rx5.O2vXu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13671 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sounds excessively nifty, thanks! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 2:05 AM Subject: Re: Smelting > The best source I've found for information on smelting is Lindsay's > Publications. If you want to know how to work with metal, they've got a book > that will tell you what you need to know. If they don't carry it, you don't > need it. One of their books tells you how to build a FULL SIZE locomotive > engine circa 1890s! (It even gives you the patterns you need to make > castings for the wheels!) They also carry books on other subjects as well, > such as Tesla coils, Tesla's other inventions, John Keely, and all sorts of > odd stuff. You can order a catalog from them for a $1, or check out their > web site. > > Snail mail address is: > Lindsay Publications, Inc. > PO Box 538 > Bradley, IL 60915-0538 > > Internet address is www.lindsaybks.com > > I've ordered a bunch of stuff from them and they've got some of the best > service in the business. > > Brian Drake > Bmd2323@aol.com > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 16:03:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA17568; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:03:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:03:11 -0800 From: "Arlo" To: Subject: RE: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:04:00 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-Reply-To: <001f01bf62ea$818e01e0$83d666ce@default> Resent-Message-ID: <"hvXW7.0.KI4.-8wXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13672 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com >> However, you could test to se if the gas is chlorine or not. Just take a >> whiff of it (VERY carefully). If it has no odor, try to burn it. Also Just a little note of warning. If taking a whiff of anything, please waft the smell to you, don't take a direct smell right from above the container. Arlo From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 16:09:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA20386; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:09:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:09:00 -0800 Message-ID: <003301bf63a3$251deb00$1f9a10cf@drosigno> Reply-To: "David Rosignoli" From: "David Rosignoli" To: References: <000701bf6365$175ed1c0$d424fea9@FS11> Subject: Re: Plasma and Drag and the Biefield Brown effect Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:04:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"2I3b9.0.G-4.QEwXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13673 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Interesting URL. It brings to mind Paul Laviolette's conjecture that the B-2 bomber may use bifield-brown (BB) like technology. It makes sense to use this OAUGDP for reduced drag and for either radar absorption or radar mis-direction - to confuse the enemy.(See below for the copied text from that URL) However, even though the OAUGDP reduces drag, I fail to see how you could use it for a BB type of propulsion. It has yet to be shown by anyone that this OAUGDP produces either the same effect as the BB effect or an enhancement of it. What do we know about the BB effect? We know that it depends on the Voltage, and, apparently, the current. Brown states that it also depends on the dielectric constant, the mass of the dielectric, and the other factors that affect capacitance (area, distance between plates,...). As far as I know, no one else besides Brown has verified this. The BB effect also increases, although in surges, when a short occurs - at least on some occasions. I know from my own experiments with a relatively large electrokinetic apparatus (two 2 foot diameter disks) that the effect increased when we ramped up the voltage on the HVDC supply quickly. This was needed in the beginning to start the disks rotating around the center pole. It reached a final rotation rate of ~12rpm. I don't know what the voltage was, since I had no meter to measure it, but I think it was between 50 - 150kVDC. I think JLN's attempts are most impressive - I have no idea how he finds the time -but I think that a lot of quantification is still left to be performed. Some unanswered questions: Was Brown correct about the related parameters? How are they related? Linearly? Exponentially?... If the effect is proportional to Voltage and current, can we ever hope to achieve a usable propulsion system if the effect is only usable with enormous power levels? If Patrick Cornille is correct about the BB effect being proportional to the current, with the voltage being a sort of trigger mechanism to create the large number of charges necessary for the capacitor to interact with the Aether, then the effect certainly goes up with power. (Remember that even though I had a 12rpm rate, and JLN had a ~1-2 rpm rate (that's from memory), this is only translational motion on a suspended pole, so that the actual force generated is extremely tiny. (I think JLN's suggestions to use the OAUGDP is more an attempt to create thrust through ion flow, and though it looks extremely promising for enhanced aerodynamics, it is still using traditional aerodynamic principles.) How does using AC at different frequencies affect the BB effect? Is there a maximum region of the effect at a certain combination of DC voltage and current? I.e., perhaps increasing the voltage beyond a certain point actually decreases the effect, and instead one needs to increase the current solely. Of course, the only way to know the answers to these questions is to experiment and take lots of measurements. Lots and lots of data. I am slow to do these kinds of experiments simply because of the lack of necessary measuring equipment. I don't suppose anyone out there knows of any inexpensive HV meters that can measure up to 100-300kVDC? The below description was taken from that URL. David Rosignoli drdaveor@enter.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- In United States Patent # 5,669,583, several methods are described to cover the surface of objects, including aircraft, with a layer of One Atmosphere Uniform Glow Discharge Plasma (OAUGDP). As discussed above in the section on Plasma-Assisted Aerodynamics, such a plasma layer with electron number densities on the order of 1010 to 1011 electrons per cubic centimeter can be used for aerodynamic drag reduction and flow control. If the OAUGDP layer is sufficiently dense, on the order of 1013 electrons per cubic centimeter, electromagnetic radiation in the form of interrogating radar pulses from radar guided weapons or monostatic sentry systems can be either absorbed (thus causing the target to disappear from the interrogating radar screen) or returned to the receiver with a false Doppler shift (thus giving a false position for the target vehicle). The false Doppler shift can be achieved by accelerating the plasma over the surface of the target vehicle by means described in Patent # 5,669,583 to velocities high enough to confuse the receiving radar about the target's position. If financial support is forthcoming, we expect to undertake a development program to produce such a high density OAUGDP, and use our microwave network analyzer to study the absorption and reflection of microwave radiation from such a OAUGDP layer. In our experiments so far, a wide range of boundary layer and flow control has been demonstrated. The boundary layer flow can be accelerated, slowed, stopped, and diverted; the boundary layer thickness can be increased or thinned; and we have seen suggestive evidence that the flow can not only be tripped into the turbulent regime by these EHD body forces, but also that the laminar regime can be extended by plasma-based EHD effects. As a flow control device, the OAUGDP layer can accelerate a flow and maintain a bulk velocity at least 3 centimeters from the surface, thus acting as a plasma pump. We have increased the drag with an OAUGDP layer in the laminar regime by a factor of at least ten, and have shown drag reductions (in the vicinity of 4 meters/second) of up to 50%. ----- Original Message ----- From: techlab To: Free Energy Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 11:40 AM Subject: Plasma and Drag > A University doing research advanced of JLN's efforts, check it out. > > http://oaugdp.engr.utk.edu/plasma/ > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 17:03:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA04900; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:03:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:03:28 -0800 Message-ID: <000701bf63ab$287cfae0$68d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: References: Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:02:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"fUOl43.0.PC1.V1xXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13674 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I'm too paranoid to "whiff" somthing in any way, I have inhaled enough things unitentionaly throughout my short life. I know it's "safe", but I have not the need to do it, so... ----- Original Message ----- From: Arlo To: Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 7:04 PM Subject: RE: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide > >> However, you could test to se if the gas is chlorine or not. Just take a > >> whiff of it (VERY carefully). If it has no odor, try to burn it. Also > > Just a little note of warning. If taking a whiff of anything, please waft > the smell to you, don't take a direct smell right from above the container. > > Arlo > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 17:11:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA07646; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:11:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:11:53 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:01:11 -0500 Subject: Re:Clorox and peroxide Message-ID: <20000120.200115.-424033.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,5-8,10-11,13,15,17-19,41-42,57-58,66-67,74-80 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"x9k9c3.0.Nt1.P9xXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13675 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Chris O'Barr wrote the following two posts: > Thanks for helping in what ways you could everyone, but I would still >like to know what the chemical name of whats left after "Clorox Bleach" and >Hydrogen Peroxide react is. No more info on the gas please, thank you >anyway. > I truly appreciate your message, you are absolutely right. The gas (at >least for the most part) is oxygen, but how do I know other gases aren't >released in smaller quantities. Can anyone tell me the complete ingredients >for Hydrogen Peroxide and "Clorox Bleach". By the way, I need more help in >the way of what...well, you know, I'm not going to keep going over it again >an again. Why can't you seem to get the idea into your skull that the only way to ascertain the composition of something is to gain as much knowledge about it as possible? If you can obtain a list of all the ingredients in Clorox brand bleach (all bleaches are about the same, only very minor differences) then it might be easier to determine what is left over. I have already tried to explain to you the necessity of OBSERVATION: you need to know the status of all the reactants and all the products as much as possible, filling in the gaps with experimental evidence. It is important to know what gases are evolved, what precipitates (if any) are formed, and any change in the color of the solution. The more knowledge you have of the products, and initial constituents, the more you can infer about the remaining solution. There is a whole branch of chemistry devoted to finding out the composition of unknown substances. For example, I tested to see if bleach contains NaOH, which I had suspected. It does. In this case, I tested my hypothesis that bleach contains NaOH by adding Al2(SO4)3 (aq) to it. The white precipitate Al(OH)3 that I predicted formed (and I verified this by dissolving in a more concentrated solution of NaOH, and in acetic acid). Therefore, there are no ionic compounds containing ions of non-group I metals because hydroxides of non-group I metals are insoluble in water and ammonium hydroxide, which is soluble in water, will react with the NaClO in the bleach. I personally think that the only reaction taking place is decomposition of the hydrogen peroxide (the complete ingredients are as follows: water (97%), hydrogen peroxide [H2O2] (3%) ). If so, then the solution you are left with after reacting H2O2 with bleach would simply be diluted bleach. You can test this by putting an excess amount of H2O2 in a small amount of bleach, and after the reaction ceases add more H2O2. If the reaction does not cease after adding an excessive amount of H2O2, then you know that something in the bleach is just breaking down the H2O2. If the reaction does stop at a certain point, test for the presence of NaClO (sodium hypochlorite, the active ingredient) by *CAREFULLY* adding a *SMALL* amount of ammonium hydroxide (household ammonia) to the resulting solution in a well ventilated area. Use the wafting procedure to determine if any Cl2 is produced. If so, then the NaClO did not participate in the reaction, and is still in the solution. It is also possible that the following reaction is occuring: H2O2 (aq) + NaClO (aq) ---> H2O (l) + NaCl (aq) + O2 (g) I don't know the standard enthalpy of formation for NaClO (aq), but if it is greater than -505.29 kJ/mol then the reaction is exothermic. This proposed reaction, if exothermic, might be enough to account for the heat generated and the gas evolved. So, bottom line, the product of mixing bleach and hydrogen peroxide might be only salt-water. You can check this by concentrating the resulting solution, by boiling, and adding a small amount of copper II sulfate (CuSO4). If the solution contains NaCl, it will turn green. If I had any hydrogen peroxide handy, I'd just try the reation myself because my curiousity has been piqued. However, I would like to know how this reaction, or its products, relates to the topic of this list. By the way, sodium hypochlorite disproportionates under heat: 3 NaClO (aq) --(heat)--> NaClO3 (aq) + 2 NaCl (aq). Unless you take steps to remove the heat generated by the bleach/peroxide reaction, these "pollutants" may form. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 17:43:23 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA18653; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:43:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:43:18 -0800 Message-ID: <001101bf63b0$bbef9da0$68d666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: References: <20000120.200115.-424033.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> Subject: Re: Re:Clorox and peroxide Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:42:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"0YtvR2.0.MZ4.rcxXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13676 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com First of all, I was trying to gain as much knowledge about it as possible (maybe not as much as possible, but no one does anything as much as possible) by asking the prestigious members of the list about it. I don't know much about chemistry, so I thought you and the others could HELP, not do it for me. I am glad you sent that last message though (even if I didn't understand some of the lingo, sorry), it gave me information that I didn't already have. And this subject doesn't have much to do with free energy, but I thought that the list members could and would help me out. You helped me out more than any with your last letter, but I don't understand what the...animosity was for. I was trying to gain knowledge via the free energy list, plain and simple. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 8:01 PM Subject: Re:Clorox and peroxide > Chris O'Barr wrote the following two posts: > > > Thanks for helping in what ways you could everyone, but I would > still > >like to know what the chemical name of whats left after "Clorox Bleach" > and > >Hydrogen Peroxide react is. No more info on the gas please, thank you > >anyway. > > > I truly appreciate your message, you are absolutely right. The gas > (at > >least for the most part) is oxygen, but how do I know other gases aren't > >released in smaller quantities. Can anyone tell me the complete > ingredients > >for Hydrogen Peroxide and "Clorox Bleach". By the way, I need more help > in > >the way of what...well, you know, I'm not going to keep going over it > again > >an again. > > Why can't you seem to get the idea into your skull that the only way to > ascertain the composition of something is to gain as much knowledge about > it as possible? If you can obtain a list of all the ingredients in > Clorox brand bleach (all bleaches are about the same, only very minor > differences) then it might be easier to determine what is left over. I > have already tried to explain to you the necessity of OBSERVATION: you > need to know the status of all the reactants and all the products as much > as possible, filling in the gaps with experimental evidence. It is > important to know what gases are evolved, what precipitates (if any) are > formed, and any change in the color of the solution. The more knowledge > you have of the products, and initial constituents, the more you can > infer about the remaining solution. There is a whole branch of chemistry > devoted to finding out the composition of unknown substances. For > example, I tested to see if bleach contains NaOH, which I had suspected. > It does. In this case, I tested my hypothesis that bleach contains NaOH > by adding Al2(SO4)3 (aq) to it. The white precipitate Al(OH)3 that I > predicted formed (and I verified this by dissolving in a more > concentrated solution of NaOH, and in acetic acid). Therefore, there are > no ionic compounds containing ions of non-group I metals because > hydroxides of non-group I metals are insoluble in water and ammonium > hydroxide, which is soluble in water, will react with the NaClO in the > bleach. > > I personally think that the only reaction taking place is decomposition > of the hydrogen peroxide (the complete ingredients are as follows: water > (97%), hydrogen peroxide [H2O2] (3%) ). If so, then the solution you are > left with after reacting H2O2 with bleach would simply be diluted bleach. > You can test this by putting an excess amount of H2O2 in a small amount > of bleach, and after the reaction ceases add more H2O2. If the reaction > does not cease after adding an excessive amount of H2O2, then you know > that something in the bleach is just breaking down the H2O2. If the > reaction does stop at a certain point, test for the presence of NaClO > (sodium hypochlorite, the active ingredient) by *CAREFULLY* adding a > *SMALL* amount of ammonium hydroxide (household ammonia) to the resulting > solution in a well ventilated area. Use the wafting procedure to > determine if any Cl2 is produced. If so, then the NaClO did not > participate in the reaction, and is still in the solution. It is also > possible that the following reaction is occuring: > H2O2 (aq) + NaClO (aq) ---> H2O (l) + NaCl (aq) + O2 (g) > I don't know the standard enthalpy of formation for NaClO (aq), but if it > is greater than -505.29 kJ/mol then the reaction is exothermic. This > proposed reaction, if exothermic, might be enough to account for the heat > generated and the gas evolved. So, bottom line, the product of mixing > bleach and hydrogen peroxide might be only salt-water. You can check > this by concentrating the resulting solution, by boiling, and adding a > small amount of copper II sulfate (CuSO4). If the solution contains > NaCl, it will turn green. > > If I had any hydrogen peroxide handy, I'd just try the reation myself > because my curiousity has been piqued. However, I would like to know how > this reaction, or its products, relates to the topic of this list. By > the way, sodium hypochlorite disproportionates under heat: 3 NaClO (aq) > --(heat)--> NaClO3 (aq) + 2 NaCl (aq). Unless you take steps to remove > the heat generated by the bleach/peroxide reaction, these "pollutants" > may form. > > -Tom Grimes > > mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com > mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com > (for attachments) > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 17:51:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA22216; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:51:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:51:30 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:51:15 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000120.105636.-491681.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> <001b01bf6390$a7f73620$81d666ce@default> In-Reply-To: <001b01bf6390$a7f73620$81d666ce@default> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA22179 Resent-Message-ID: <"YppWw3.0.xQ5.WkxXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13677 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:52:32 -0500, Chris O'Barr wrote: > I truly appreciate your message, you are absolutely right. The gas (at >least for the most part) is oxygen, but how do I know other gases aren't >released in smaller quantities. Can anyone tell me the complete ingredients >for Hydrogen Peroxide and "Clorox Bleach". By the way, I need more help in >the way of what...well, you know, I'm not going to keep going over it again >an again. [snip] Ok, what is left is probably mainly still just chlorox bleach, with a little H2O2 still mixed in. There may however also be some chlorine compounds present with higher oxidation states (oxidised by by the O atoms from the peroxide). All in all what you end up with will probably be a somewhat more powerful oxidant than chlorox bleach alone. It will probably also be somewhat alkaline (as I think chlorox alone is also). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 17:51:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA22348; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:51:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:51:39 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: U.F.O. Power Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:51:17 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <38873EC2.CB8F4E37@csrlink.net> <38875287.3815@cyberportal.net> In-Reply-To: <38875287.3815@cyberportal.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA22175 Resent-Message-ID: <"Xm4971.0.tS5.gkxXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13678 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com [snip] >Michael S. Johnston wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> What could be more exotic than discovering the power source of those >> mischievous little "Visitors" that have been plaguing our skies for >> untold millennia? In Jacques Vallee's book "Passage to Magonia" he >> traces various stories, legends and myths back as far as recorded >> history goes and came to some interesting conclusions. Not only were the >> current abduction stories similar to these but also the vehicles >> described. One thing that stood out for me was his idea that this >> phenomenon seems to appear to the human observer to be always something >> just beyond prevailing technological capabilities of the time. This is quite logical. In every age people tend to asses the current level of technology, and extrapolate somewhat. Therefore, anything inexplicable is described in terms of their best extrapolation at the time. >>For >> example, in the 1800's they were thought to be "airships" (blimps, >> dirigibles) and sure enough, shortly thereafter, we had blimps. Later on >> we saw them as jet powered, then nuclear powered. Now we are assuming >> inter-dimentional travel. >> Another aspect of this is that, during reported encounters, the >> occupants of these vehicles are often reported as speaking to their >> abductees either verbally or telepathically ( I'm not even going to go >> there). During these conversations the abductees often ask how the ships >> are powered. In Response, the occupants usually tell them something that >> again, relates to the technology of the time. One tries to explain in terms that the listener will be able to relate to. >>Or soon to emerge >> technology. I mention this because, in reading modern abduction reports, >> I have often seen water mentioned as being a part of this power source. >> I recall one abductees report as stating that the power unit featured >> two "tubes" of water which ringed the ship. These tubes being side by >> side and rotating in opposite directions. This may be the propulsion unit, rather than the power source. If water acts as a "reservoir" for aether, then two tubes rotating in opposite directions may "spew" aether out in a downward direction between the tubes, resulting in an upward thrust against the tubes. Ringing the vessel in a such a pair of tubes would provide an even thrust right around the rim. The tubes may need to contain radial vanes inside them to ensure that the water rotated with the tube. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 17:52:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA22687; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:51:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:51:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3887BBC4.9FB78A96@imaginativa.cl> Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 22:52:04 -0300 From: Felix Meyer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: re: Free energy and free information! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6UHCQ1.0.OY5.rkxXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13679 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com The KONZEN ELECTRIC PULSE MOTOR is a further example of wrong measuring technique. If you measure X volts und Y amps in a AC circuit, then you may not simply multiply the values to obtain the power in watt. You must observe the phase relation of the both components. As is indicated in the motor description, there is a resonance effect detected. In resonance there is a 90 degree phase difference between voltage and current. So when you have Max Voltage you have Zero Current und when you have Max Current you have Zero Voltage. The REAL POWER then is zero. [ cos(90 deg) = 0 ] In reality, the phase angle is anywhere between 0 and 360 degrees, therefore the the real power is any value ... To obtain the real effective power you have to multiply X * Y * cos(phase angle). As example, I have a generator that produces an output of 3000 Volts at 30 Amps = 90'000 VA constantly with an input power of less than 100 watts. Wonderful OVERUNITY GENERATOR ??? Unfortunatly, most reported OU generators have such a characteristic ... Felix From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 20 20:05:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA32545; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:05:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:05:09 -0800 Message-ID: <002401bf63c4$16017f80$2b9910cf@drosigno> Reply-To: "David Rosignoli" From: "David Rosignoli" To: "Robin van Spaandonk" Cc: References: <000701bf6365$175ed1c0$d424fea9@FS11> <003301bf63a3$251deb00$1f9a10cf@drosigno> Subject: Re: Plasma and Drag and the Biefield Brown effect Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:00:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"nZu4Q.0.Qy7.rhzXu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13680 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: David Rosignoli Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 9:32 PM Subject: Re: Plasma and Drag and the Biefield Brown effect > On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:04:53 -0500, David Rosignoli wrote: > [snip] > >The BB effect also increases, although in surges, when a short occurs - at > >least on some occasions. I know from my own experiments with a relatively > >large electrokinetic apparatus (two 2 foot diameter disks) that the effect > >increased when we ramped up the voltage on the HVDC supply quickly. This was > >needed in the beginning to start the disks rotating around the center pole. > >It reached a final rotation rate of ~12rpm. I don't know what the voltage > >was, since I had no meter to measure it, but I think it was between 50 - > >150kVDC. > > I think you need a series of successive high voltages pulses, (such as Tesla > experimented with), rather than a continuous voltage (the effect may however > continue for up to 30 seconds after a single pulse, then you still have the > momentum of the disks). I suspect that each pulse entrains a certain amount > of aether, which has momentum, and continues on its own after the > termination of the pulse. So a series of pulses acts like a bucket brigade. > A continuous voltage only has one leading edge, and acts like one > bucketfull. > Try a rotating spark gap to provide the pulses. > > This is an interesting suggestion. A rotating spark gap whose rotation rate was timed to provide the maximum amount of force on the disks at the peaks of the force. I actually had something like this in mind, but hadn't thought about using a spark gap. I found that ramping up the power supply the way I did was stressful on the parts. I suspect that with a spark gap in use, the parts I use should be rated for relatively high currents. > > I think JLN's attempts are most impressive - I have no idea how he finds > >the time -but I think that a lot of quantification is still left to be > >performed. > >Some unanswered questions: > >Was Brown correct about the related parameters? > >How are they related? Linearly? Exponentially?... > >If the effect is proportional to Voltage and current, can we ever hope to > >achieve a usable propulsion system if the effect is only usable with > >enormous power levels? > > According to "Lost Science" by Gerry Vassilatos (Borderland Sciences), TT > Brown found that the forces created were 1E6 times electrostatic forces. > About then public reporting ceased. Where did Vassilatos find this number? How did Brown determine this? > >If Patrick Cornille is correct about the BB effect > >being proportional to the current, with the voltage being a sort of trigger > >mechanism to create the large number of charges necessary for the capacitor > >to interact with the Aether, then the effect certainly goes up with power. > >(Remember that even though I had a 12rpm rate, and JLN had a ~1-2 rpm rate > >(that's from memory), this is only translational motion on a suspended pole, > >so that the actual force generated is extremely tiny. (I think JLN's > >suggestions to use the OAUGDP is more an attempt to create thrust through > >ion flow, and though it looks extremely promising for enhanced aerodynamics, > >it is still using traditional aerodynamic principles.) > > > >How does using AC at different frequencies affect the BB effect? > >Is there a maximum region of the effect at a certain combination of DC > >voltage and current? I.e., perhaps increasing the voltage beyond a certain > >point actually decreases the effect, and instead one needs to increase the > >current solely. > > AC would reverse the effect every half cycle. You need pulsed DC (i.e. the > direction of current in the system must never be reversed). You could use a > high value resistor to discharge the capacitor. Physical direction is > important here. What you have is essentially a "rocket" where aether is the > propellant mass (picked up on one side, and pushed out on the other side). > In that sense, it's more like a jet than a rocket. > You use electric current (charge) to interact with the aether and give it a > push. > (Different charges push in different directions???) Thanks for the correction. I did mean pulsed DC - my mistake. However, if you visit the TT Brown website, you'll find an interesting patent application for an electrogravitic communications device that, essentially, modulated a HV capacitor. Polarity is important, but, apparently, so is the gradient of the electric field. Sometimes, the way the capacitor is structured will over rule any particular polarity. It seems some experimentors have seen these kind of effects. > > > >Of course, the only way to know the answers to these questions is to > >experiment and take lots of measurements. Lots and lots of data. I am slow > >to do these kinds of experiments simply because of the lack of necessary > >measuring equipment. I don't suppose anyone out there knows of any > >inexpensive HV meters that can measure up to 100-300kVDC? > > I believe maximum length of spark in dry air gives a reasonable measure. > (Makes use of the breakdown voltage of the air, which is so many volts per > meter). While it is true that spark length can be used to provide a measurement of voltage, one needs a way to calibrate this. The length of the spark will vary depending on the atmospheric properties. There are curves available that show a variation of voltage. But now you also need to measure other parameters, as well, such as temperature, pressure, humidity. Also, how do you determine what the voltage is while the power supply is on, without shorting it across a spark gap? Most HV supplies that people use to replicate the BB effect (including the one I used, which was the HVG1 from Information Unlimited) run without any kind of closed loop feedback from the HV output side back to the input. Without some kind of regulation, the output voltage will vary considerably depending on the load impedance. The voltage across the capacitor, and the voltage used to generate a spark gap may not be the same. This is why I only consider the spark gap method to be only a rough cut measurement. Thanks for your comments. David Rosignoli drdaveor@enter.net > [snip] > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 04:42:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA07212; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:42:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:42:09 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:29:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Re:Clorox and peroxide Message-ID: <20000121.073452.-427545.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2,4,6,8,10,12,14-15,17-19,29-35 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"voY912.0.Xm1.XG5Yu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13682 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > First of all, I was trying to gain as much knowledge about it as >possible (maybe not as much as possible, but no one does anything as much as >possible) by asking the prestigious members of the list about it. I don't >know much about chemistry, so I thought you and the others could HELP, not >do it for me. I am glad you sent that last message though (even if I didn't >understand some of the lingo, sorry), it gave me information that I didn't >already have. And this subject doesn't have much to do with free energy, but >I thought that the list members could and would help me out. You helped me >out more than any with your last letter, but I don't understand what >the...animosity was for. I was trying to gain knowledge via the free energy >list, plain and simple. Sorry about the animosity, as you call it, it just seemed as if you expected an answer without providing any information and that tends to irritate me a little (especially since I, too, am now interested). Even though I kept asking for more information, yu seemed very reluctant to part with it. I harbor no hard feelings, honest. Today I will ask my chemistry professor to look up the value of Hf for NaClO, I tried all my chemistry texts and the internet, but he has a huge book of physical constants. This value will help determine whether the reaction between NaClO and H2O2 I suggested is taking place or not: NaClO + 2 H2O2 ---> NaCl + 2 H2O + O2 -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 04:42:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA07196; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:42:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:42:08 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:34:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide Message-ID: <20000121.073453.-427545.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3-4,6,8-16,20-26 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oFPSu1.0.Lm1.WG5Yu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13681 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:51:15 +1100 Robin van Spaandonk writes: >Ok, what is left is probably mainly still just chlorox bleach, with a little >H2O2 still mixed in. There may however also be some chlorine compounds >present with higher oxidation states (oxidised by by the O atoms from the >peroxide). All in all what you end up with will probably be a somewhat more >powerful oxidant than chlorox bleach alone. >It will probably also be somewhat alkaline (as I think chlorox alone >is also). > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk Yes, clorox alone is alkaline. NaClO is basic, and the solution is stabilized with NaOH (which, of course, is basic). If only part of the H2O2 reacts, and the O atoms that escape oxidize other ingredients, then how is the heat and the O2 generated? -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 07:55:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA02212; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:54:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:54:02 -0800 (PST) From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:44:25 -0500 Subject: Re:Clorox and peroxide: finally a solution (pun intended) Message-ID: <20000121.104427.-424691.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,16-22 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yRrPO2.0.OY.O48Yu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13683 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mr. O'Barr, I have determined that the reaction is most likely the following: H2O2 (aq) + NaClO (aq) ---> H2O (l) + NaCl (aq) + O2 (g) + 158 kJ/mol Using this equation (assuming the bleach is 5% NaClO and the hydrogen peroxide is 3%, both by weight), then the result of mixing 10 mL of each reactant is the production of 0.2 g of O2 (oxygen gas), 0.4 g of NaCl (table salt), 0.1 g of H2O (water), and about 0.07 g of leftover H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide). The reaction will heat the resulting solution about 4.5 C. Because of this, the O2 generated will occupy a volume a little less than 200 mL, assuming the initial solution had a temperature of about 25 C and the barometric pressure was about 1 atm (in other words, a pleasant spring day). So, bottom line, you will be left with a salt water solution with a little bit of unreacted peroxide and whatever inactive ingredients were in the bleach. Bear in mind also that there may be numerous side-reactions with the "inactive" ingredients in the bleach, but these will almost surely be negligible. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 13:17:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24673; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:17:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:17:46 -0800 Message-ID: <001d01bf6454$ce4ac3e0$3fd666ce@default> From: "Chris O'Barr" To: References: <20000121.104427.-424691.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> Subject: Re: Re:Clorox and peroxide: finally a solution (pun intended) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:16:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"q-80d1.0.M16.wpCYu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13684 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I believe that settles it (nothing is for sure...except math maybe), I know I am always quick to give thanks and probably it doesn't mean much, but I thank you again anyway for your fruitful effort. ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 10:44 AM Subject: Re:Clorox and peroxide: finally a solution (pun intended) > Mr. O'Barr, > > I have determined that the reaction is most likely the following: > H2O2 (aq) + NaClO (aq) ---> H2O (l) + NaCl (aq) + O2 (g) + 158 kJ/mol > Using this equation (assuming the bleach is 5% NaClO and the hydrogen > peroxide is 3%, both by weight), then the result of mixing 10 mL of each > reactant is the production of 0.2 g of O2 (oxygen gas), 0.4 g of NaCl > (table salt), 0.1 g of H2O (water), and about 0.07 g of leftover H2O2 > (hydrogen peroxide). The reaction will heat the resulting solution about > 4.5 C. Because of this, the O2 generated will occupy a volume a little > less than 200 mL, assuming the initial solution had a temperature of > about 25 C and the barometric pressure was about 1 atm (in other words, a > pleasant spring day). So, bottom line, you will be left with a salt > water solution with a little bit of unreacted peroxide and whatever > inactive ingredients were in the bleach. Bear in mind also that there > may be numerous side-reactions with the "inactive" ingredients in the > bleach, but these will almost surely be negligible. > > -Tom Grimes > > mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com > mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com > (for attachments) > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 21 15:46:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA12419; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:46:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 15:46:50 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Clorox Bleach and Hydrogen Peroxide Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:46:43 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000121.073453.-427545.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> In-Reply-To: <20000121.073453.-427545.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA12385 Resent-Message-ID: <"G5R0v1.0.y13.f_EYu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13685 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:34:50 -0500, tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: [snip] > Yes, clorox alone is alkaline. NaClO is basic, and the solution is >stabilized with NaOH (which, of course, is basic). If only part of the >H2O2 reacts, and the O atoms that escape oxidize other ingredients, then >how is the heat and the O2 generated? [snip] Well, atoms being stubborn little buggers, I figured some of 'em would want to do their own thing, and form O2. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 22 12:07:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA12738; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:05:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:05:08 -0800 Message-ID: <388A0D87.3FEB@cyberportal.net> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 15:05:27 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nu Energy Horizons CC: nuenergy2@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sneak Product Preview References: <3888CD49.2C617CC1@globalcrossing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"w0uV43.0.x63.qrWYu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13686 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com MARTIN WOLFF wrote: > > I'm sure it's way too early to talk about distributors and all that but > are you intending to sell plans, kits, "black box" installations or all > of the above? We will be distributing advanced fuel cells in the beginning. These cells will be recharged with alcohol, with the addition of an antenna and ground connection. The "black boxes" will come later. "Black boxes" will not require the alcohol. I suspect that the later devices will be sold quietly privately. -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 22 23:52:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA12549; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 23:52:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 23:52:19 -0800 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 02:51:40 EST Subject: Flux diverting ou device? To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, energy21@listbot.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com, brettnichols@yahoo.com, tlamb3@mindspring.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_fb.1472309.25bc0d0c_boundary" X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 47 Resent-Message-ID: <"boejg2.0.-33.oChYu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13687 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com --part1_fb.1472309.25bc0d0c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While I am working on a different project full time now, I thought you might want to see a design I came up with a few months ago. I see the rotating diverter turning with no additional drag when a load is put on the coil. Flux is diverted from straight line between magnet and stator to bars that run length of diverter. Red is magnet, blue is ferrite, gray is nonmagnetic/nonconductive, black is coil. 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free information! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.176.187 Resent-Message-ID: <"xlgGP.0.C74.8YhYu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13688 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 22:52:04 -0300, freenrg-l@eskimo.com wrote: > > The KONZEN ELECTRIC PULSE MOTOR > > is a further example of wrong measuring technique. > > If you measure X volts und Y amps in a AC circuit, then you may not > simply multiply the values to obtain the power in watt. > > You must observe the phase relation of the both components. > > As is indicated in the motor description, there is a resonance effect > detected. > In resonance there is a 90 degree phase difference between voltage and > current. Not true, that describes reactive current. > So when you have Max Voltage you have Zero Current und when you have > Max Current you have Zero Voltage. > The REAL POWER then is zero. [ cos(90 deg) = 0 ] Only describes instantaneous power input at that time. 45 degrees later power is being inputed. > In reality, the phase angle is anywhere between 0 and 360 degrees, > therefore the the real power is any value ... Vague way of disclaiming the fact... > To obtain the real effective power you have to multiply X * Y * > cos(phase angle). > > As example, I have a generator that produces an output of 3000 Volts at > 30 Amps > = 90'000 VA constantly with an input power of less than 100 watts. > > Wonderful OVERUNITY GENERATOR ??? Wonderful claims with nothing but opinion. A 100 watt draw to move such reactive currents would be truly incredible. Even 30 amps out of phase is a large quantity. HDN > > Unfortunatly, most reported OU generators have such a characteristic ... > > Felix > Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freeworld.excite.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 00:35:41 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA19931; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 00:35:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 00:35:38 -0800 Message-ID: <17376064.948616400728.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 00:33:20 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey D Norris Reply-To: To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Series resonance vs Parallel resonance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.176.187 Resent-Message-ID: <"tZUI91.0.Kt4.QrhYu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13689 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Its too easy to get obtuse, but for those who loose their understanding of resonance, its good to understand the opposites. I have placed several arguments at Resonant Confusion at my messageboard which include posts from Tesla list. HDN Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freeworld.excite.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 11:05:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA17342; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:05:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:05:10 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 11:04:52 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com cc: Craig Johnson Subject: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"wfFsP1.0.sE4.Y3rYu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13690 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Attached below is an entry that someone just posted to REPORT YOUR UNUSUAL PHENOMENA (http://www.halcyon.com/sciclub/cgi-pvt/unusual/unusual.html, also see http://www.amasci.com/weird/unusual/exper.html for more entries) I thought it might intrigue freenrg-L. Here's a thought. Since that paperclip somehow FOUND THE TINY LOOP IN THE THREAD and reattached itself, something is suspicious. If it had acutally teleported, the thread would have moved because of the loss of tension, and if the paperclip then reappeared in its original position, it would NOT have reattached, and it would have fallen. (It is typical in reports of vanishing/reappearing objects that the missing object suddenly falls to the floor after having been gone for ages.) So, if this report is accurate, then it might be similar to the Hutchison Effect, similar to reports of heated "white gold" powder, and similar to the goal of the Philadelphia Experiment: metals that become invisible. (The air glows, and then the battleship/paperclip aquires a refractive index of 1.0) And if a rusty paperclip was used, maybe the rust would have hung there in space with no apparent paperclip! (Rust being, like the thread, an insulator, and possibly not subject to the "transparent metal" effect.) How could an AC H.V. power supply act differently if the output leads were reversed? Simple: the output is a pulse, not a square wave. A pulsed waveform looks different upside-down. So, everyone go remove the secondary from their sparkgap tesla coils and stick metal objects there instead? :) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 03:37:36 -0800 (PST) From: Craig Johnson Subject: Entry to Phenomena Reports (need update!) Back when I was about 14, something I had built did something I'd classify as odd. The circuit was simple: the DC-DC inverter salvaged out of an old xenon timing light, and one of those hoop-shaped UHF television antennas. I hooked the inverter to 12 volts DC from a wall adapter, and connected the high voltage/high frequency secondary to the two leads on the hoop. Surprisingly, the crude device didn't short out and go up in a fireball; and I could hear the inverter make a faint "whining" sound from the transformer laminations vibrating. Somewhere along the line, I got the bright idea to stick something inside the loop and see what (if anyhthing) would happen - I expected at most some magnetic oddity. So I suspended an ordinary steel paper clip in the exact center of the ring with fine sewing thread, and plugged the circuit in. The paper clip developed a faint blue glow around it, and about ten or fifteen seconds in, IT VANISHED, leaving the sewing thread dangling free. Where did it go? What makes this so odd? It's that when I reversed the polarity of the hoop (by doing the 'ol switcheroo of the two high voltage leads) and repowered the thing, the paper clip reappeared on the thread amidst a faint blue corona like it had the first time around. The paper clip appeared to be intact, and did not change temperature or exhibit any obvious metallurgical changes. So this leaves the question: Where did the paperclip go anyway? Did it really "transport" to another physical location? Did it slip through our spacetime and end up in some kind of subspace domain or interfold layer? Did a quantum phase shift occur, putting it slightly out of phase with the dimension we exist in? Did it end up in another quantum reality; ie. an alternate universe? Or did it time-travel to some past or future point? I think I can rule out a straight "transport" from one physical location to another; for the paperclip would have likely fallen on its side during the first half of transport and reappeared in a different physical orientation; assuming it reappeared at all. It might also come back very cold (from being briefly exposed to space, should it have been transported there). Time travel also seems suspect; a very similar effect might have been observed upon its return - again, it might not even have been retrievable. That still leaves the door wide open as to what may have happened to that paper clip after it vanished from the wire hoop. About two weeks after this experiment, I came home from school one day to find the entire apparatus (which had been set up on a dresser) quite thoroughly destroyed; and I've never been able to re-create these results nor did I ever find out who smashed the piss out of it. Has anybody else come across some wierd effects in some circuit they messed with, either intentionally or by accident - not counting the Bajak flux cap, of course. Craig Johnson Seattle, WA USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 03:37:35 (PST) ------------------------------------------------------ From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 16:24:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA20683; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 16:24:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 16:24:14 -0800 Message-ID: <004f01bf6600$c2a9bc00$109a10cf@drosigno> Reply-To: "David Rosignoli" From: "David Rosignoli" To: References: Subject: Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 19:20:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ai9d8.0.235.jkvYu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13691 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Cool, if it's true. This is why electrical engineering is so cool. I wonder what kind of frequencies this happened under? 5-10kHz? He said that he heard a sound from the vibrating laminations - magnetostriction effects? I think that would be lower in frequency, perhaps 100's of Hz. So, apply a variable duty cycle "square" (rectangular) wave over a range of frequencies from 50Hz to 20kHz.With the output voltage being...100's - 10,000's V. Being true to replication, connect that UHF loop antenna, and suspend the paper clip by a sewing thread (cotton). (#1 rule in experimentation is to always repeat exactly what someone else does, or you're just asking for failure. In this regard, I suspect that this person may be overlooking some information or just did not have adequate measuring capability - not that I blame him. The fact that this happened at all would be amazing. ) There may be external influences as well affecting the results. After all Hutchison had a plethora of external equipment creating his anomalous zones. It does sound more like controlled ON-OFF invisibility, than anything else. The thread condition may be very important here. That is, the conditions of the atmosphere affecting the conductive qualities - the thread may act anywhere from a conductor to a semiconductor to an insulator. Also, the region of influence of the field within the loop antenna may be very small. I wonder if having a clean signal at the output of the power supply is better than one with multiple harmonics. (I.e., a solid state Tesla coil or just your run-of-the-mill spark gap Tesla coil) Okay. This is all armchair theorizing, I know. But the available facts are few, and the range of variables are great. Just trying to limit it down. My 2 cents, anyway. David Rosignoli drdaveor@enter.net ----- Original Message ----- From: William Beaty To: Cc: Craig Johnson Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2000 2:04 PM Subject: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip > > Attached below is an entry that someone just posted to REPORT YOUR UNUSUAL > PHENOMENA (http://www.halcyon.com/sciclub/cgi-pvt/unusual/unusual.html, > also see http://www.amasci.com/weird/unusual/exper.html for more entries) > > I thought it might intrigue freenrg-L. > > Here's a thought. Since that paperclip somehow FOUND THE TINY LOOP IN THE > THREAD and reattached itself, something is suspicious. If it had acutally > teleported, the thread would have moved because of the loss of tension, > and if the paperclip then reappeared in its original position, it would > NOT have reattached, and it would have fallen. (It is typical in reports > of vanishing/reappearing objects that the missing object suddenly falls to > the floor after having been gone for ages.) > > So, if this report is accurate, then it might be similar to the Hutchison > Effect, similar to reports of heated "white gold" powder, and similar to > the goal of the Philadelphia Experiment: metals that become invisible. > (The air glows, and then the battleship/paperclip aquires a refractive > index of 1.0) And if a rusty paperclip was used, maybe the rust would > have hung there in space with no apparent paperclip! (Rust being, like > the thread, an insulator, and possibly not subject to the "transparent > metal" effect.) > > How could an AC H.V. power supply act differently if the output leads were > reversed? Simple: the output is a pulse, not a square wave. A pulsed > waveform looks different upside-down. > > So, everyone go remove the secondary from their sparkgap tesla coils and > stick metal objects there instead? :) > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 03:37:36 -0800 (PST) > From: Craig Johnson > Subject: Entry to Phenomena Reports (need update!) > > Back when I was about 14, something I had built did something I'd classify > as odd. > > The circuit was simple: the DC-DC inverter salvaged out of an old xenon > timing light, and one of those hoop-shaped UHF television antennas. I > hooked the inverter to 12 volts DC from a wall adapter, and connected the > high voltage/high frequency secondary to the two leads on the hoop. > Surprisingly, the crude device didn't short out and go up in a fireball; > and I could hear the inverter make a faint "whining" sound from the > transformer laminations vibrating. > > Somewhere along the line, I got the bright idea to stick something inside > the loop and see what (if anyhthing) would happen - I expected at most > some magnetic oddity. So I suspended an ordinary steel paper clip in the > exact center of the ring with fine sewing thread, and plugged the circuit > in. The paper clip developed a faint blue glow around it, and about ten > or fifteen seconds in, IT VANISHED, leaving the sewing thread dangling > free. Where did it go? > > What makes this so odd? It's that when I reversed the polarity of the > hoop (by doing the 'ol switcheroo of the two high voltage leads) and > repowered the thing, the paper clip reappeared on the thread amidst a > faint blue corona like it had the first time around. The paper clip > appeared to be intact, and did not change temperature or exhibit any > obvious metallurgical changes. > > So this leaves the question: Where did the paperclip go anyway? Did it > really "transport" to another physical location? Did it slip through our > spacetime and end up in some kind of subspace domain or interfold layer? > Did a quantum phase shift occur, putting it slightly out of phase with the > dimension we exist in? Did it end up in another quantum reality; ie. an > alternate universe? Or did it time-travel to some past or future point? > > I think I can rule out a straight "transport" from one physical location > to another; for the paperclip would have likely fallen on its side during > the first half of transport and reappeared in a different physical > orientation; assuming it reappeared at all. It might also come back very > cold (from being briefly exposed to space, should it have been transported > there). > > Time travel also seems suspect; a very similar effect might have been > observed upon its return - again, it might not even have been retrievable. > > That still leaves the door wide open as to what may have happened to that > paper clip after it vanished from the wire hoop. > > About two weeks after this experiment, I came home from school one day to > find the entire apparatus (which had been set up on a dresser) quite > thoroughly destroyed; and I've never been able to re-create these results > nor did I ever find out who smashed the piss out of it. > > Has anybody else come across some wierd effects in some circuit they > messed with, either intentionally or by accident - not counting the Bajak > flux cap, of course. > > Craig Johnson > Seattle, WA USA - Friday, January 21, 2000 at 03:37:35 (PST) > ------------------------------------------------------ > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 18:09:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA28271; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:09:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:09:20 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Subject: Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 13:08:40 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <004f01bf6600$c2a9bc00$109a10cf@drosigno> In-Reply-To: <004f01bf6600$c2a9bc00$109a10cf@drosigno> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA28179 Resent-Message-ID: <"vLzxw3.0.Zv6.FHxYu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13692 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sun, 23 Jan 2000 19:20:03 -0500, David Rosignoli wrote: [snip] >It does sound more like controlled ON-OFF invisibility, than anything else. [snip] >> or fifteen seconds in, IT VANISHED, leaving the sewing thread dangling >> free. Where did it go? [snip] Note also the "dangling free". This gives the impression that the paperclip also lost weight. The whole story is also reminiscent of the Philadelphia experiment. I suspect that the skin effect of high frequency current on the paperclip played a role. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 18:25:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA02626; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:25:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:25:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:25:37 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: sciclub-list@eskimo.com Subject: Taking orders: Stong's AMATEUR SCIENTIST Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"odH3_2.0.ee.dWxYu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13693 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com The SAS is now taking advanced orders for the soon-to-be-published CDROM of the entire 70 year run of Scientific American's THE AMATEUR SCIENTIST column. They hope to have it out mid year. The price will go up (it's $50USD at present) Go to their website: http://www.tinkersguild.com/sciStore.html http://www.tinkersguild.com/ Buy a stack of them for next X-mas? ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 20:31:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA18816; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:31:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:31:40 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:42:08 -0500 Message-ID: <20000124044208343.AAA237@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"rRl_x3.0.eb4.hMzYu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13694 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Robin writes: >The whole story is also reminiscent of the Philadelphia experiment. >I suspect that the skin effect of high frequency current on the paperclip >played a role. > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk Rick Monteverde reported being surrounded by a blue glow while hanging gliding, and Jim O. has been reporting on a disappearing bullet photography experiment on Vortexb that is also similar. All have a HV in common, and the bullet experiment involves a strobe lamp as the lighting source. I suggested a refractive index change, but got no response. I thought that the Philly experiment and Hutchison effects were a little bit more than just a refraction index change, though. I'm glad Rick didn't disappear, or end up an integral part of his hang glider! Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 23 21:43:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA11140; Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:43:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 21:43:48 -0800 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <87.ff0438.25bd4056@aol.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 00:42:46 EST Subject: Flux paths to better understand drawings To: energy21@listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com, brettnichols@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_87.ff0438.25bd4056_boundary" X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 47 Resent-Message-ID: <"M7npD3.0.zj2.JQ-Yu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13695 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com --part1_87.ff0438.25bd4056_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Some people had trouble understanding how the flux paths changed as the diverter rotated. I hope the attached drawings will help. I need 3D animation with changing flux paths shown. 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<005001bf669d$7e835ca0$96d2989e@callaghansystems.demon.co.uk> From: "David Callaghan" To: "Freengr List" Subject: Zero Point Energy Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:01:24 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"D-iUS1.0.W32.J9AZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13696 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi All My latest copy of New Scientist details a new budget allocated by NASA for researching zp FreeNRG. The researcher hopes to use zp fluctuations to oscillate the lid on microscopic MEM's constructed on a silicon wafer, and so produce useful power. (MEM's are Micro-Electro-Mechanical devices) I don't have web access at present to check, but the story should be available somewhere off www.newscientist.com I suggest searching for 'Zero Point' or 'Vacuum' Best regards David Callaghan DCallaghan@CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 12:19:28 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26181; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:18:50 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:18:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <005c01bf66a7$76934dc0$0a00a8c0@skot.emeraldnet.net> From: "skot" To: Subject: Re: Flux paths to better understand drawings Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:13:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Resent-Message-ID: <"suUds1.0.yO6.eEBZu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13697 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com That's cool ( second drawing helped lots ). Did you make a prototype if this? scottb -----Original Message----- From: HLafonte@aol.com To: energy21@listbot.com ; freenrg-l@eskimo.com ; jlnlabs@egroups.com ; brettnichols@yahoo.com Date: Sunday, January 23, 2000 9:40 PM Subject: Flux paths to better understand drawings >Hi all, >Some people had trouble understanding how the flux paths changed as the >diverter rotated. I hope the attached drawings will help. I need 3D animation >with changing flux paths shown. >Thanks, >Butch > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 12:42:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA18074; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:41:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:41:53 -0800 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:41:46 EST Subject: Re: Flux paths to better understand drawings To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 47 Resent-Message-ID: <"5iQNo.0.FQ4.HaBZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13698 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com In a message dated 1/24/00 2:22:49 PM Central Standard Time, skot@fastbid.cc writes: << Did you make a prototype if this? >> Scott, I am working on this and one other project at the same time. This diverter will take some work to get it machined right. If you give it a try let me know, I'll help any way I can. Thanks, Butch From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 14:06:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA26488; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:06:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:06:03 -0800 Message-ID: <20000124220556.6777.qmail@nwcst314.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 24 Jan 00 17:05:56 EST From: Horace To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Flux paths to better understand drawings] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA26459 Resent-Message-ID: <"-JDD21.0.mT6.9pCZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13699 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com For the rotating diverter to NOT experience any force, the magnetic flux through the diverter should be equal in both phases of the cycle: shorted flux vs. circulating flux. If the coil was energized, shorted and superconducting it would behave as a permanent magnet (some say that's what permanent magnet is on atomic level). If the flux generated by the coil was in the same direction as the flux generated by the magnet, the coil and PM would be attracted to each other, and their flux would add. Conversly, if the flux generated by the coil was in the opposite direction as the flux generated by the magnet, the coil and PM would be repelled from each other, and their flux would subtract. The diverter acts as a magnetic-resistor for the flux, the longer and thiner the diverter's elements the higher the magnetic-resistance (a.k.a. reluctance) This is analogical to electric current where: 1) Magnetic field generated by the coil or PM (magnetomotive force MMF) = Electric Voltage 2) Reluctance of the material conducting the flux = Electrical resistance 3) Magnetic flux = Electric current 4) Diverter elements conducting magnetic flux = Wires conducting electrical current There is even an equivalent of Ohm's law for the above: Flux = MMF / Reluctance Furthermore if the diverter will try to increase the flux through the coil, the coil will "become a repulsive magnet" that will generate local oposing (subtracting) flux in order to keep the total flux constant. Conversely, if the diverter will try to decrease the flux through the coil, the coil will "become an attractive magnet" that will generate local additive flux in order to keep the total flux constant. So, at most this system will be 100% efficient Horace HLafonte@aol.com wrote: > Hi all, > Some people had trouble understanding how the flux paths changed as the > diverter rotated. I hope the attached drawings will help. I need 3D animation > with changing flux paths shown. > Thanks, > Butch > --------------------------------------------- > Attachment: 90.ZIP > MIME Type: application/zip > --------------------------------------------- ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 14:58:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA18736; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:58:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:58:46 -0800 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <42.d11806.25be32fa@aol.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:58:02 EST Subject: To Horace[Flux paths to better understand drawings] To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 47 Resent-Message-ID: <"qxItx2.0.fa4.caDZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13700 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Horace, Do you see the energy required to turn the diverter as increasing as the coil produces a voltage/current due to the diverter redirecting flux away from the coil? Butcht From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 15:12:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA23920; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:12:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:12:41 -0800 Message-ID: <002601bf66bf$ed7ad4e0$619910cf@drosigno> Reply-To: "David Rosignoli" From: "David Rosignoli" To: References: <005001bf669d$7e835ca0$96d2989e@callaghansystems.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Zero Point Energy Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:08:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"jZkos.0.cr5.enDZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13701 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com The URL is: http://www.newscientist.com/features/features.jsp?id=ns222237 ----- Original Message ----- From: David Callaghan To: Freengr List Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 2:01 PM Subject: Zero Point Energy > Hi All > > My latest copy of New Scientist details a new budget allocated by NASA for > researching zp FreeNRG. The researcher hopes to use zp fluctuations to > oscillate the lid on microscopic MEM's constructed on a silicon wafer, and > so produce useful power. > > (MEM's are Micro-Electro-Mechanical devices) > > I don't have web access at present to check, but the story should be > available somewhere off > > www.newscientist.com > > I suggest searching for 'Zero Point' or 'Vacuum' > > > Best regards > > David Callaghan > DCallaghan@CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk > > > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 21:18:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA05866; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:14:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:14:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:14:49 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip In-Reply-To: <20000124044208343.AAA237@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"QQBuN1.0.UR1.H5JZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13702 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sun, 23 Jan 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote: > suggested a refractive index change, but got no response. I thought that > the Philly experiment and Hutchison effects were a little bit more than just > a refraction index change, though. I'm glad Rick didn't disappear, or end > up an integral part of his hang glider! Wasn't the Phil. Exp. intended to make the ship transparent? (There HAD to be lots of desktop experiments prior to the big one, so perhaps they were working with phenomena involving electromagnetically transparent-ized metals.) The purported teleportation stuff was said to be unexpected. The "paperclip" guy forwarded his web address, where he has some UFO material, and also a simple diagram of the setup with the paper clip http://home.att.net/~safecofield/ufo.htm ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 21:32:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA11600; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:32:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:32:10 -0800 Message-ID: <388D431C.33A18F68@telusplanet.net> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:30:52 -0800 From: D Adams X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip References: <20000124044208343.AAA237@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FadBt3.0.8r2.QLJZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13703 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sounds similiar to the Incunabula papers too? Michael T Huffman wrote: > Robin writes: > >The whole story is also reminiscent of the Philadelphia experiment. > >I suspect that the skin effect of high frequency current on the paperclip > >played a role. > > > >Regards, > > > >Robin van Spaandonk > > Rick Monteverde reported being surrounded by a blue glow while hanging > gliding, and Jim O. has been reporting on a disappearing bullet photography > experiment on Vortexb that is also similar. All have a HV in common, and > the bullet experiment involves a strobe lamp as the lighting source. I > suggested a refractive index change, but got no response. I thought that > the Philly experiment and Hutchison effects were a little bit more than just > a refraction index change, though. I'm glad Rick didn't disappear, or end > up an integral part of his hang glider! > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke@LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 24 23:02:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA05210; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:02:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:02:22 -0800 Message-ID: <388D5842.AD210A92@telusplanet.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 00:01:06 -0800 From: D Adams X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: MORE on the vanishing paperclip References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lCBZQ1.0.EH1.zfKZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13704 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: Re: paperclip Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:53:07 +0000 Resent-From: "RAVE" Resent-To: donadams@telusplanet.net Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:57:46 -0800 From: CRAIG JOHNSON Organization: TDC Productions To: D Adams References: 1 D Adams wrote: > Hi, > > could a person get schematics on your 'disappearing' paperclip device? I wish I had them - but back when I built it, the entire circuit was from a DC xenon timing light (those gun-shaped things you use to get your car's engine timing set correctly). I put 12 volts in it, and got about 600 volts (open circuit) in pulsating DC out of it. The output was also very rich in harmonics; some of which extended well into the RF. The loop was an ordinary UHF loop antenna with the twinlead cut off. I can't remember if I stuck a resistor in there or not. Normally, the loop would present itself as a dead short on the HV, but there were apparently enough high frequency RF components in its waveform that shorting didn't occur. A diode and a 6uF 600WVDC mylar cap was across the HV output; I can't remember if there were any other components here - but I don't think there were, other than maybe a resistor on the unused trigger input that would have never come into play. The leads from the HV to the loop were well under 12" in length and were pretty far apart, so any capacitance in them was negligible (probably in the nanofarad range). If I had the schematics, I'd probably be richer than Bill Gates, rather than wondering where my next meal or roll of toilet paper is going to come from. But when I made the thing, I used a circuit that was complete when I got it; and I didn't have access to any test equipment like a DVM, a scope, or a magnetometer - all of which I'd have loved to have had for this experiment. :/ Sorry I can't be of more help. Regards, Craig Johnson mailto:toyletbowlbbs@worldnet.att.net http://home.att.net/~safecofield/ufo.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 01:33:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA28146; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 01:33:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 01:33:36 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 04:44:12 -0500 Message-ID: <20000125094412968.AAA73@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"eJsPF.0.ht6.ltMZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13705 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Billb write: >Wasn't the Phil. Exp. intended to make the ship transparent? (There HAD >to be lots of desktop experiments prior to the big one, so perhaps they >were working with phenomena involving electromagnetically transparent-ized >metals.) The purported teleportation stuff was said to be unexpected. Right, and that was my point about Rick becoming a hang glider accessory. Both Hutchison and the Philly Exp. had unexpected results, from little I have read on the subjects. I'm still puzzling over it, but I think I may have some halfbaked understanding that I can share in the near future. I'm still looking at JL Naudin's stuff, and some other plasma related material. It's has taken me a long time of reading this stuff without understanding any of it before I have come to what I hope is an accurate picture of what is happening. It's another one of those weird vortex things that goes torsional at some point. :) Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 01:39:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA29902; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 01:39:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 01:39:09 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 04:49:46 -0500 Message-ID: <20000125094946531.AAA121@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"hb81L1.0.7J7.xyMZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13706 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Don writes: >Sounds similiar to the Incunabula papers too? I've never heard this particular ghost story, got any online refs? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 04:11:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA18661; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 04:10:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 04:10:43 -0800 Message-ID: <388D92D1.6369@cyberportal.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 07:10:57 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nu Energy Horizons CC: nuenergy2@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sneak Product Preview References: <3888CD49.2C617CC1@globalcrossing.com> <388A0D87.3FEB@cyberportal.net> <388C609D.EC287AE3@globalcrossing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"M_jgd3.0.RZ4.0BPZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13707 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com MARTIN WOLFF wrote: > > > > > We will be distributing advanced fuel cells in the beginning. > > These cells will be recharged with alcohol, with the addition > > of an antenna and ground connection. > > Sounds an interesting combination of what you have made public and fuel cell > technology. Does it have to use alcohol? Only to recharge the cells. If we could use radiation in them then no alcohol would be required but you know how that one goes. > > Anyway you look at it, it seems to be cheaper to use gasoline > (diesel outside of the USA) than alcohol as a fuel. Gasoline is too dangerous and is a cancer causing agent. Besides, my fuel cells are very efficient. :) > > Even if it does need lighter fuels, is the exhaust hot enough to > put a GEET fuel cracker on it to further expand fuel choices? There is no exhaust... no heat at all. It behaves like a super battery. > > > The "black boxes" will > > come later. "Black boxes" will not require the alcohol. I > > suspect that the later devices will be sold quietly privately. > > This is wise. The bottom line is that you are never going to make > any money on the "black boxes". It isn't that you shouldn't, it's > just that there are and will be too many barriers to ever making > money from them. I've got other plans for the "black boxes." ;) > > Probably the biggest money making opportunity there would be > a 100+ page book with detailed plans and suppliers sold via > Lindsay Publications. That way you are limiting your market > to hands on and generally sensible people who wouldn't open > it up and feed the "modified" fuel to their pet dog/child. Quite frankly I am tired of the paper trail. "Been there done that." It is time to move onto another life. -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 04:25:29 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA22009; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 04:25:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 04:25:25 -0800 Message-ID: <388D966B.49F6@cyberportal.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 07:26:19 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com Subject: Think of the possibilities Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yBF1m2.0.kN5.rOPZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13708 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com A fast breeder reactor fuel pellet less than a 1/4" long with same energy as 12 barrels of oil, 3 tons of coal, 500 gallons of gas, 70,000 cubic feet of natural gas or 8 million gallons of water over Coulee Dam. http://www.nuenergy.org/images/jpg/nuc2.jpg -BAP From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 06:10:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA14922; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 06:10:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 06:10:24 -0800 Message-ID: <002e01bf673d$5751ae20$b29b10cf@drosigno> Reply-To: "David Rosignoli" From: "David Rosignoli" To: References: Subject: Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip - Philadelphia Experiment NOT! Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:06:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"7C24v1.0.1f3.FxQZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13709 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Berlitz and Moore aside, did the Philadelphia Experiment even happen? In one of the early issues of ESJ (Electric Spacecraft Journal), an historian wrote an article showing how the Philadelphia Experiment could not have happened. His argument was based strictly from an historical perspective (i.e., was there a USS Eldridge? Where was it?,...). I could be wrong, but wasn't Charles Berlitz and William Moore the first people to write about it - in their book. Then, came a whole host of people claiming to have been part of it, as well (such as, Preston Nichols and Al Bielek). I don't know how true this is, but I've heard a rumor that Al Bielek used to say a lot of off-the-wall stuff until a story stuck - this one about being in the Philadelphia Experiment and in some unusual time travel loop. Preston Nichols used to run a lab out on Long Island called SpaceTime Labs (he may still). But he seemed a little too prone to believe in things without much available evidence. I think comparing this effect to the Hutchison Effect, and to the Fusor experiments done in the past by Farnsworth and company are a more appropriate comparison, since they are more credible in documentation and in eyewitness testimony, and since both of these effects caused either partial or total invisibility. Of course, reasoning ONLY by association is not a very good way of approaching some of these experiments. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Beaty To: Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 12:14 AM Subject: Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip > On Sun, 23 Jan 2000, Michael T Huffman wrote: > > > suggested a refractive index change, but got no response. I thought that > > the Philly experiment and Hutchison effects were a little bit more than just > > a refraction index change, though. I'm glad Rick didn't disappear, or end > > up an integral part of his hang glider! > > Wasn't the Phil. Exp. intended to make the ship transparent? (There HAD > to be lots of desktop experiments prior to the big one, so perhaps they > were working with phenomena involving electromagnetically transparent-ized > metals.) The purported teleportation stuff was said to be unexpected. > > The "paperclip" guy forwarded his web address, where he has some UFO > material, and also a simple diagram of the setup with the paper clip > > http://home.att.net/~safecofield/ufo.htm > > > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 10:15:03 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10151; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:13:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:13:37 -0800 Message-ID: <388DE5E6.7520@cyberportal.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:05:26 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nu Energy Horizons CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sneak Product Preview References: <3888CD49.2C617CC1@globalcrossing.com> <388A0D87.3FEB@cyberportal.net> <388C609D.EC287AE3@globalcrossing.com> <388D92D1.6369@cyberportal.net> <388DE14C.3989AF2F@globalcrossing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Z0ghi2.0.VU2.GVUZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13710 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com MARTIN WOLFF wrote: > <> > > Is it working like other fuel cells? Nope... it's a whole nu world. > > I can't think of any type of fuel cell that > isn't overall exothermic. The basic oxidation > of ethanol is exothermic and the more power > they put out, the warmer they get. Even > batteries give off heat. My method is unique... fuel-cells and batteries made today are repackaged early 1900s technology. No one seems to have original ideas these days. > > Not asking you to give out any secrets > but why is there no heat? If I told you this then the magic would be gone now wouldn't it? Study Moray's work and you will get an idea of what I am doing. -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 11:21:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA11939; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:19:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:19:31 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip - Philadelphia Experiment NOT! Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:03:37 -0500 Message-ID: <20000125190337812.AAA252@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"YwyR32.0.Pw2.sSVZu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13712 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com David writes: >Berlitz and Moore aside, did the Philadelphia Experiment even happen? In one >of the early issues of ESJ (Electric Spacecraft Journal), an historian wrote >an article showing how the Philadelphia Experiment could not have happened. >His argument was based strictly from an historical perspective (i.e., was >there a USS Eldridge? Where was it?,...). You might have a valid point David, but considering the fact that from some peoples' historical perspective, there was also no Pearl Harbor or Holocaust, and that Bill Clinton has been the ideal husband, father, and president, the point is moot. In other words, much of history itself is a convenient fabrication for some people when you examine it closely. There are a number of varying accounts that I have a read and heard about the Philadelphia Experiment (and this is something that I have not even taken the time to research in any depth) that differ to make me think that it may have actually happened, simply because it has matched in certain technological details, some of the technologies that I have researched and experimented with myself. The paper trails (filed patents, published research papers, lecture notes and books, etc.) of the technologies themselves have indicated to me to have all been in existence at the time that the Philly Exp. allegedly occured, and the military always gets to play with stuff decades before any industrial or consumer application emerges, so my opinion is that something may have occured. Exactly what happened, and how is still the mystery, and to me it is only of passing interest. Just ask any police officer filling out a traffic accident report how difficult it is to get a consensus on what happened in broad daylight on a busy street, and you'll know what I mean. He'll have six different versions in fifteen minutes, and some of the people interviewed will say that there never even was an accident, because they were looking the other way at the time. As examples, all of the stuff that JL Naudin has produced to date indeed, could have been done one hundred years ago with the technologies in existence back then. When you look at the actual circuitry, underlying concepts and elegance of the design, you have to wonder. It all may have been done many years ago by some lucky or inspired individuals, who knows. The New York Times continued to report that air travel was impossible for a full seven years after the Wright Brothers were doing daily test flights in front of cameras, the local press and the general public in rural Ohio. I like to examine these accounts of anomolous events for the details because they are fun mainly, and I have learned many useful and practical things in the process. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 11:21:02 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA11873; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:19:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:19:22 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip - Philadelphia Experiment NOT! Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:50:23 -0500 Message-ID: <20000125185023203.AAA286@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"n7JWv.0.Qv2.gSVZu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13711 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com David writes: >Berlitz and Moore aside, did the Philadelphia Experiment even happen? In one >of the early issues of ESJ (Electric Spacecraft Journal), an historian wrote >an article showing how the Philadelphia Experiment could not have happened. >His argument was based strictly from an historical perspective (i.e., was >there a USS Eldridge? Where was it?,...). You might have a valid point David, but considering the fact that from some peoples' historical perspective, there was also no Pearl Harbor or Holocaust, and that Bill Clinton has been the ideal husband, father, and president, the point is moot. In other words, much of history itself is a convenient fabrication for some people when you examine it closely. There are a number of varying accounts that I have a read and heard about the Philadelphia Experiment (and this is something that I have not even taken the time to research in any depth) that differ to make me think that it may have actually happened, simply because it has matched in certain technological details, some of the technologies that I have researched and experimented with myself. The paper trails (filed patents, published research papers, lecture notes and books, etc.) of the technologies themselves have indicated to me to have all been in existence at the time that the Philly Exp. allegedly occured, and the military always gets to play with stuff decades before any industrial or consumer application emerges, so my opinion is that something may have occured. Exactly what happened, and how is still the mystery, and to me it is only of passing interest. Just ask any police officer filling out a traffic accident report how difficult it is to get a consensus on what happened in broad daylight on a busy street, and you'll know what I mean. He'll have six different versions in fifteen minutes, and some of the people interviewed will say that there never even was an accident, because they were looking the other way at the time. As examples, all of the stuff that JL Naudin has produced to date indeed, could have been done one hundred years ago with the technologies in existence back then. When you look at the actual circuitry, underlying concepts and elegance of the design, you have to wonder. It all may have been done many years ago by some lucky or inspired individuals, who knows. The New York Times continued to report that air travel was impossible for a full seven years after the Wright Brothers were doing daily test flights in front of cameras, the local press and the general public in rural Ohio. I like to examine these accounts of anomolous events for the details because they are fun mainly, and I have learned many useful and practical things in the process. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 12:26:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA31194; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:26:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:26:44 -0800 Message-ID: <388E14C7.CB46E478@telusplanet.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:25:27 -0800 From: D Adams X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Incunabula - Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip References: <20000125094946531.AAA121@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XWcT7.0.Jd7.3SWZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13713 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Go to http://www.deoxy.org/inc.htm Michael T Huffman wrote: > Don writes: > >Sounds similiar to the Incunabula papers too? > > I've never heard this particular ghost story, got any online refs? > > Knuke > > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke@LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 14:28:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17276; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:28:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:28:37 -0800 Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <388E31E5.5F9D743B@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 23:29:41 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Incunabula - Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip References: <20000125094946531.AAA121@mail.lcia.com@lizard> <388E14C7.CB46E478@telusplanet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"-3dAe.0.qD4.JEYZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13714 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Don Adams wrote: Go to http://www.deoxy.org/inc.htm Jack writes: Hi All, I've excerpted from the following found at the above url. Jack Smith Advances in Skin Science: Quantum Tantra An Interview with Nick Herbert by Joseph Matheny ... Nick Herbert, author of Quantum Reality, Faster Than Light: Superluminal Loopholes in Physics, and of course, the legendary Alternate Dimensions. Herbert was a former SDI scientist turned renegade researcher. ... I'll give you a little background on Alternate Dimensions (A.D.). It was written in 1989 by Herbert, but was suppressed by the publisher, Harper & Row, for unexplained reasons in 1990. ... Herbert was now hiding out in the backwater town of Boulder Creek, CA, deep in the heart of the Santa Cruz mountains. I hopped aboard a plane to San Jose, and drove a rental car up to Boulder Creek. About a mile away from Herbert's farm house, I called him on my celluar phone. Surprisingly enough, Herbert was very cordial, and agreed to meet me in town for lunch and conversation. He suggested Adelita's Mexican Cantina, gave me directions, and promised to meet me there in an hour. ... The core idea of Q.T. stems from Heisenberg's statement that "atoms are not things." So, Q.T. naturally extrapolated that statement into "well then people are not things, either." People are not things in the same way that atoms are not things." "What are things?" I asked "Things are entities that have attributes, whether you look at them or not. They're big, they're solid and such. You can list their attributes. Non-things, or Quantum objects, like atoms or molecules, don't have attributes. They are basically clusters of oscillating possibilities, the possibilities not even being well-defined. It might reward us to look that way at people, as oscillating possibilities." He took a long draw off his Dos Equis, and signaled the waiter for another. " So, try and think of what the essence of quantum theory is," he continued, "Three adjectives: Randomness, thinglessness, and interconectiveness. ... "Interconnectiveness is the most fantastic feature of Q.T. Things are connected in the quantum world in such a way that not only did we not think of it before the discovery of quantum mechanics, but I don't think we could have thought this way at all. It's so strange. The terrestrial belief system that comes the closest to quantum connectiveness is VooDoo." "Sympathetic magick?" I queried. This was getting good. "Yes, sympathetic magick," he replied. "Of course, the VooDoo conception is naive in comparision to Q.T.'s connectiveness. In VooDoo, you do something like burn someone's hair to give them a headache. The Quantum connection isn't that crude. It has more to do with timing. In the Quantum world, you burn someone's hair, and maybe they miss an appointment. ... The Newtonian world view emphasized control over the world, whereas, the Quantum world view doesn't emphasize control so much as timing. You could say that the Newtonian view emaphasized force, where the Quantum world emphasizes finesse." "One analogy is ordinary, steerable dish radar versus phased array antennae. Steerable dish physically moves the whole antenna structure. In the phased array antennae, you have a whole array that are all fixed. None of them move, but by changing the timing on these antennae, you get a virtual antenna that's pointed in any direction. That's an example of finesse, rather than force. Quantum connection is like that. It is set up like VooDoo by having something that the other person has interacted with, some sympathetic object." ... Every religion has their symbol. The Christians have the cross, Islam has the crescent and star, the Pagans have the pentagram, the wheel for Buddhism, and so forth. Q.T. has it's symbols, also. One of them is this fork." He picked up a salsa-encrusted fork, and stared at it rapturously. "It reminds us to see the world as possibilities," he continued, "In the Newtonian world, starting from now, only one thing could happen.Q.T. sees the future as open possibilities, like the tines of this fork. Actually, if this fork were fuzzy, like Man Ray's fuzzy cup and spoon..." ... We use symbols, like the fork, to remind ourselves of these things, because the human mund is not yet used to thinking in parallels." "Our data rate is miniscule, compared to say, television data rates equivalent to megabits per second, or telephones, which are equivalent to thousands of kilobits per second. Morse code is about 10 bits per second, and that's pretty close to our attention rate! I mean, when we're not on robot, when we do come to attention, we don't bring much to this moment in terms of quantity. It's been estimated at about 16 bits a second. So, people need simple graphic symbols, like the fork, or the cross, or the crescent, to remind thenselves that they're Moslems, or whatever. ... And music is the connection in this technology." "Why music?" I asked. "Because, these possibilities are vibratory." he answered. 'In the physical world, every atom, or possibility is vibrating at a certain frequency. The higher the energy level, the higher the frequency or pitch of the vibrations. We can't hear, smell, see, or taste any of these vibrations except indirectly. I'm doing more research with solid state technology, sound sequences." ... From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 14:55:06 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28012; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:54:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:54:58 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:30:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip - Philadelphia Experiment NOT! Message-ID: <20000125.174546.-404145.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3-5,7-9,11,13-15,34-35,48-56 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7L58S.0.br6.1dYZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13715 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:03:37 -0500 knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) writes: >You might have a valid point David, but considering the fact that from some >peoples' historical perspective, there was also no Pearl Harbor or >Holocaust, and that Bill Clinton has been the ideal husband, father, and >president, the point is moot. In other words, much of history itself is a >convenient fabrication for some people when you examine it closely. [discontinuity] >The New York Times continued to report that air travel was impossible for a >full seven years after the Wright Brothers were doing daily test flights in >front of cameras, the local press and the general public in rural Ohio. So, are you saying that history is mutable? If something happened, then it happened: history is simply immutable (shades of "1984"). How people choose to interpret and react to data is their own problem, but when you look at the facts you see there was a Pearl Harbor, a Holocaust. Whether the Japanese or Germans, respectively, are justified in their actions is a point that is out of the realm of science, and history. I have personally never heard anyone, or even of anyone, saying that those verifiable incidents did not occur. There is so much evidence that they did occur that anyone saying that would be considered positively loony. Whether President Clinton is an ideal father, husband, or president is an opinion. It has, however, been verified beyond a shadow of a doubt that he has had excessively intimate relations with a woman that is not his wife, he lied to the nation about it, he lied under oath about it. You must draw the distinction between people's opinions of history and history itself. So your last sentence in the first snip is completely irrelevant. I have heard about the Philadelphia Experiment, but whether it actually occurred can be determined the same way other historical events have been verified (consistency of information, proven first-hand reports, historically reliable sources, etc.). Your last statement above is irrelevant, too. The press is not known for it's complete accuracy, far from it. The press believes what it wants to believe. It is hard, maybe impossible, to justify the Times' actions, but they may have meant that commercial flights would be impractical. I don't personally know where that information came from or what they said, verbatim, so I can't know if that's what they implied. However, no one is in a position to predict the future and they shouldn't have tried. My point to all this is that while the Philladelphia Experiment may have happened, or not, to assert that history is in essense just someone's (or some group's) opinion is wrong. David had a very valid point in saying that the P. Experiment may not have actually occured. I must add, though, that whether the Experiment occured or not, some promising research is coming from it. -Tom mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) Quote from newspaper headlines: "March planned for next August" ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 15:37:21 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA13171; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:37:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:37:05 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Incunabula - Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:47:42 -0500 Message-ID: <20000125234742609.AAA275@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"eqcH73.0.iD3.WEZZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13716 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Yawza, The eggs look exactly (except brighter) like the one I saw hovering over a camp in Alaska. A bunch of people saw it, too. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 15:47:42 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA19608; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:47:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:47:37 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip - Philadelphia Experiment NOT! Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:58:13 -0500 Message-ID: <20000125235813781.AAA261@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"zJKWj.0.Do4.POZZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13717 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tom writes: David had a >very valid point in saying that the P. Experiment may not have actually >occured. I must add, though, that whether the Experiment occured or not, >some promising research is coming from it. > > -Tom That was my point as well, but you evidently misunderstood that. The actual happenings are not immutable, but the written histories with their interpretations of the events, omissions etc., are usually biased for one reason or another. It's another one of the more boring facts of life. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 16:19:52 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA05375; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:18:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:18:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:18:17 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"h8asK.0.pJ1.ErZZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13718 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Mon, 24 Jan 2000, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > The whole story is also reminiscent of the Philadelphia experiment. > I suspect that the skin effect of high frequency current on the paperclip > played a role. Aha! Idea: a UHF antenna is not a normal coil, since it's steel, not copper. If a steel conductor is required, then the phenomenon would never be created accidentally when using normal copper coils. After all, if paperclips can be made to vanish, why doesn't this occur often in, say, high-power radio transmitters? Depending on the particular circuit, shorting it out might greatly distort the waveform from the intended design. For example, it might put out large spikes rather than high voltage DC. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 19:30:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA14768; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:30:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:30:47 -0800 Message-ID: <004e01bf67ad$2857a960$2d9910cf@drosigno> Reply-To: "David Rosignoli" From: "David Rosignoli" To: References: <20000125235813781.AAA261@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip - Philadelphia Experiment NOT! Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:25:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"EEQUN.0.fc3.dfcZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13719 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tom's point is a valid one, which I agree with. My point is that there are a lot of unusual experiments that can be replicated which can give us insight into which of these phenomena are real and which are not. But even if these other experiments (e.g., Hutchison effect, vanishing paper clip,..) show results similar to the Phili. Exp., that doesn't mean it actually happened. You could use that same kind of logic for a lot of phenomena, but if the historical records - assuming they weren't tampered with - says otherwise, then it is just a measure of academic speculation. Now, when it comes to this paper clip, I like to reference comparisons to other experiments that can be verified. The Hutchison effect, though I don't think has been completely replicated by others, has I believe been partly replicated by Hathaway. Plus, there is video footage and actual samples that you can hold. I remember holding one of the samples of the knife embedded into an Aluminum(?) plate, that was later shaved off in order to reveal the knife. Impressive looking. Of course, all of this could have been faked, but there are enough unusual accounts like the paper clip and the Fusor incident, as well as some partial replication from others, that one must think that these phenomena are real. After all, ball lightning used to be regarded by some as nothing more than persistence of vision. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T Huffman To: Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 6:58 PM Subject: Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip - Philadelphia Experiment NOT! > Tom writes: > > David had a > >very valid point in saying that the P. Experiment may not have actually > >occured. I must add, though, that whether the Experiment occured or not, > >some promising research is coming from it. > > > > -Tom > > That was my point as well, but you evidently misunderstood that. The actual > happenings are not immutable, but the written histories with their > interpretations of the events, omissions etc., are usually biased for one > reason or another. It's another one of the more boring facts of life. > > Knuke > > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke@LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 25 19:33:09 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA29585; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:32:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:32:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <005901bf67ad$6fa5c040$2d9910cf@drosigno> Reply-To: "David Rosignoli" From: "David Rosignoli" To: References: <20000125190337812.AAA252@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip - Philadelphia Experiment NOT! Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 22:28:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"G9PPM1.0.AE7.YhcZu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13720 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > I like to examine these accounts of anomolous events for the details because > they are fun mainly, and I have learned many useful and practical things in > the process. Ditto. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 00:08:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA30144; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 00:08:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 00:08:32 -0800 Message-ID: <388EB941.28FE8AE1@telusplanet.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 01:07:14 -0800 From: D Adams X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Michaels Egg - Re: Incunabula - Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip References: <20000125234742609.AAA275@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"62Gsi.0.tM7._jgZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13721 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com yer kidding me, right? Michael T Huffman wrote: > Yawza, > > The eggs look exactly (except brighter) like the one I saw hovering over a > camp in Alaska. A bunch of people saw it, too. > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke@LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 00:39:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA03454; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 00:39:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 00:39:55 -0800 Message-ID: <388EC0A1.464EFC8F@telusplanet.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 01:38:42 -0800 From: D Adams X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Amazing hubble pics! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yCBCS2.0.pr.QBhZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13722 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com http://www.msnbc.com/news/361283.asp?cp1=1 check out the eskimo nebula... does this look like cellular protoplasm or what? ITs alliiiiveee....... From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 06:54:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA22787; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:54:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:54:19 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Michaels Egg - Re: Incunabula - Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:04:49 -0500 Message-ID: <20000126150449109.AAA267@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"QH35G.0.yZ5.QgmZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13723 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Don writes: >yer kidding me, right? No, I've reported the event to the group a couple of times. I was working as a engineer on a processing vessel, and we were anchored up just offshore of the company's cannery in Chignik, AK. The guy who was doing the radio watch that night ran down to the engine room, and got me to show me this thing. It was hovering in the air maybe a hundred yards above the next camp over, which was about 3/4 of a mile away. All the radios (we had like 6) were squawking with people from other boats talking about it. I took the binoculars, and watched it for maybe 15 minutes, or so. My buddy and I talked about it for a while, and I had to check stuff in the engine room, so I went back down, did a quick look around, and went back up, and it hadn't moved. I watched it for a while longer, got bored, had a lot of work to do, and went back down to the engine room again. I came back up after an hour or so, and my buddy was doing a cross word puzzle. He said that he had quit looking at it earlier as well, and when he looked back, it was just gone. He didn't see it exit. All the radios had quieted down, and everything was back to normal. It looked just like the eggs at the bottom of that webpage though, when you click on them, except much brighter. A slowly undulating, incandescent, plasma glow, that changed colors. It was quite beautiful to look at, but other than that it didn't actually do anything, and there was no way for us to approach it. It looked to be maybe six to eight feet in diameter. Not very big. We figured that it was there for 45 minutes to an hour. There was no movement at all, but it was a very calm night as far as the wind was concerned. As it happens, a friend of mine just bumped into the guy, Andrew Nesbitt, last week who was doing the radio watch, and saw it with me so he is still around, but there were at least 40 other boats in the area at the time, all anchored up, and quite excited about it. It was 1991 or 1992, I'd have to go back over the ship's logs, and I'm not anywhere near Seattle at the moment. I've never really believed in extra-terrestrials, and still don't actually. I'm not ruling out the possibility, but there is enough evidence now to indicate to me that this could have easily been an Earth built craft if it was indeed, any more than a ball lightening kind of phenomenon. One additional thing that struck me as being odd after reading the Icunabula papers however, was that the camp was owned by the Moonies. It was a fish cannery work camp, which is not all that unusual. I know of a couple of other similar Moonie camps down on the gulf coast on Louisiana doing shrimping right around the Homa and Chauvan(sp?) area. A few years later, another couple of friends of mine had something follow them around for a while. It shined a real bright light on them, and when they tried to run, it followed them. They just stopped and stared at it, and it went away. This was in a state park by Moses Lake, Washington. Boeing has a testing facility out there, and I just reckoned that it was a skunk works prototype or something. Both of my friends are respected professionals, one a medical doctor. Neither of them are into UFOs, weird cults, conspiracies or anything like that. I've known the one for over 25 years, and the other for maybe 15 years. They are about as buttoned-down, boring/normal and middle class as you can get. Married, homeowners with regular jobs and comfortable lives. I know it sounds wacky, but thats what we saw. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 07:25:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA03277; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:25:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:25:11 -0800 Message-ID: <20000126152507.14120.qmail@nwcst289.netaddress.usa.net> Date: 26 Jan 00 10:25:05 EST From: Horace To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Flux paths to better understand drawings] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA03248 Resent-Message-ID: <"yO_u91.0.1p.N7nZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13724 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com The energy required to turn the diverter full cycle, will be zero if: - The coil is open (same as not existing) - The coils is closed with zero resistance (same as perfect spring, storing and returning 100% of energy during each half-cycle) The energy required to turn the diverter half-cycle, will be zero if: - The coil is open (same as not existing) If you dissipate the electric current in a resistive load than the energy required to turn the diverter will be positive, reaching maximum when all energy in the coil during one half-cycle is dissipated before the inception of next half-cycle. This happens because of the unbalance in flux density caused by the reacting coil. For example, during the half-cycle that attempts to increase the flux through the coil (with zero flux through it), the coil generates local flux in opposite direction, that causes the total flux flowing in the magnetic circuit to remain the same as through the coil (this means zero!). So the diverter has zero flux flowing through it when the coil reacts. Before the diversion of the flux the diverter was shorting the flux of the PM and had maximum flux going through it. The above difference in flux densities causes mechanical attractions on the elements of the diverter (equal to the energy dissipated in the coil) Sorry, Horace HLafonte@aol.com wrote: > Horace, > Do you see the energy required to turn the diverter as increasing as the coil > produces a voltage/current due to the diverter redirecting flux away from the > coil? > Butch ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 08:06:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA22443; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:06:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:06:20 -0800 Message-ID: <002301bf6816$83aa2b80$0a00a8c0@skot.emeraldnet.net> From: "skot" To: Subject: Re: [Flux paths to better understand drawings] Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:00:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Resent-Message-ID: <"40rxS2.0.aU5.xjnZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13725 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Try it anyway Butch! It doesn't have to be zero, just less than normal. scottb -----Original Message----- From: Horace To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Flux paths to better understand drawings] > > >The energy required to turn the diverter full cycle, will be zero if: > >- The coil is open (same as not existing) >- The coils is closed with zero resistance (same as perfect spring, storing >and returning 100% of energy during each half-cycle) > >The energy required to turn the diverter half-cycle, will be zero if: > >- The coil is open (same as not existing) > >If you dissipate the electric current in a resistive load than the energy >required to turn the diverter will be positive, reaching maximum when all >energy in the coil during one half-cycle is dissipated before the inception of >next half-cycle. > >This happens because of the unbalance in flux density caused by the reacting >coil. > >For example, during the half-cycle that attempts to increase the flux through >the coil (with zero flux through it), the coil generates local flux in >opposite direction, that causes the total flux flowing in the magnetic circuit >to remain the same as through the coil (this means zero!). So the diverter >has zero flux flowing through it when the coil reacts. Before the diversion >of the flux the diverter was shorting the flux of the PM and had maximum flux >going through it. > >The above difference in flux densities causes mechanical attractions on the >elements of the diverter (equal to the energy dissipated in the coil) > >Sorry, >Horace > > >HLafonte@aol.com wrote: >> Horace, >> Do you see the energy required to turn the diverter as increasing as the >coil >> produces a voltage/current due to the diverter redirecting flux away from >the >> coil? >> Butch > > >___________________________________________________________ _________ >Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 09:10:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA17315; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:10:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:10:35 -0800 Message-ID: <388F1CAB.7B5D3078@datacomm.ch> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 19:11:23 +0200 From: Felix Meyer Organization: hb9abx X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [de] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: re: Free energy and free information! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OQwDX3.0.RE4.AgoZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13726 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 22:52:04 -0300, freenrg-l@eskimo.com wrote: > > The KONZEN ELECTRIC PULSE MOTOR > > is a further example of wrong measuring technique. > ... snip > In resonance there is a 90 degree phase difference between voltage and > current. Not true, that describes reactive current. SEE NOTE 1: > So when you have Max Voltage you have Zero Current und when you have > Max Current you have Zero Voltage. > The REAL POWER then is zero. [ cos(90 deg) = 0 ] Only describes instantaneous power input at that time. 45 degrees later power is being inputed. SEE NOTE 2: > In reality, the phase angle is anywhere between 0 and 360 degrees, > therefore the the real power is any value ... Vague way of disclaiming the fact... > As example, I have a generator that produces an output of 3000 Volts at > 30 Amps > = 90'000 VA constantly with an input power of less than 100 watts. > > Wonderful OVERUNITY GENERATOR ??? Wonderful claims with nothing but opinion. A 100 watt draw to move such reactive currents would be truly incredible. Even 30 amps out of phase is a large quantity. HDN SEE NOTE 3: Here my NOTES: -------------- Note 1: This IS true that there is 90 deg phase shift, but it depends where you measure it. When you feed an (ideal) capacitor with sine wave AC, then you have a (precise) 90 deg phase shift between voltage and current. I wrote "resonance" and did not include a diagram. I refer to voltage over C and current through C, then its true. Note 2: Also for sine wave: Over one cycle of 360 deg you get the states: zero, positive power, zero, negative power. When integrating the power over a full cycle the result is ZERO. Applies also to ideal capacitor (and also to ideal inductor). Note 3: This is not a claim based on opinion. This is a real device in operation which I have built and tested under real conditions. It is just a high Q resonant circuit of L and C. Here I repeat the results: Current through L and C : 30 A Voltage over L and C : 3000 V Input power: Less than 100 Watt Felix From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 10:56:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA26533; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:55:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:55:55 -0800 Message-ID: <004f01bf682e$32260500$0a00a8c0@skot.emeraldnet.net> From: "skot" To: Subject: Thermal Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:50:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Resent-Message-ID: <"O9qbm.0.TU6.wCqZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13727 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Does anybody know of a referance chart which shows the thermal co-efficient of expansion for many liquids? scottb From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 12:36:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02810; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:36:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:36:46 -0800 Message-ID: <388F68A3.B9D987FE@telusplanet.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:35:31 -0800 From: D Adams X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Michaels Egg - Re: Incunabula - Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip References: <20000126150449109.AAA267@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ucZ2B3.0.lh.UhrZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13728 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com absolutely fascinating.... thanks Michael! Michael T Huffman wrote: > Don writes: > >yer kidding me, right? > > No, I've reported the event to the group a couple of times. I was working > as a engineer on a processing vessel, and we were anchored up just offshore > of the company's cannery in Chignik, AK. The guy who was doing the radio > watch that night ran down to the engine room, and got me to show me this > thing. It was hovering in the air maybe a hundred yards above the next camp > over, which was about 3/4 of a mile away. All the radios (we had like 6) > were squawking with people from other boats talking about it. I took the > binoculars, and watched it for maybe 15 minutes, or so. My buddy and I > talked about it for a while, and I had to check stuff in the engine room, so > I went back down, did a quick look around, and went back up, and it hadn't > moved. I watched it for a while longer, got bored, had a lot of work to do, > and went back down to the engine room again. > > I came back up after an hour or so, and my buddy was doing a cross word > puzzle. He said that he had quit looking at it earlier as well, and when he > looked back, it was just gone. He didn't see it exit. All the radios had > quieted down, and everything was back to normal. It looked just like the > eggs at the bottom of that webpage though, when you click on them, except > much brighter. A slowly undulating, incandescent, plasma glow, that changed > colors. It was quite beautiful to look at, but other than that it didn't > actually do anything, and there was no way for us to approach it. It looked > to be maybe six to eight feet in diameter. Not very big. We figured that > it was there for 45 minutes to an hour. There was no movement at all, but > it was a very calm night as far as the wind was concerned. > > As it happens, a friend of mine just bumped into the guy, Andrew Nesbitt, > last week who was doing the radio watch, and saw it with me so he is still > around, but there were at least 40 other boats in the area at the time, all > anchored up, and quite excited about it. It was 1991 or 1992, I'd have to > go back over the ship's logs, and I'm not anywhere near Seattle at the moment. > > I've never really believed in extra-terrestrials, and still don't actually. > I'm not ruling out the possibility, but there is enough evidence now to > indicate to me that this could have easily been an Earth built craft if it > was indeed, any more than a ball lightening kind of phenomenon. One > additional thing that struck me as being odd after reading the Icunabula > papers however, was that the camp was owned by the Moonies. It was a fish > cannery work camp, which is not all that unusual. I know of a couple of > other similar Moonie camps down on the gulf coast on Louisiana doing > shrimping right around the Homa and Chauvan(sp?) area. > > A few years later, another couple of friends of mine had something follow > them around for a while. It shined a real bright light on them, and when > they tried to run, it followed them. They just stopped and stared at it, > and it went away. This was in a state park by Moses Lake, Washington. > Boeing has a testing facility out there, and I just reckoned that it was a > skunk works prototype or something. Both of my friends are respected > professionals, one a medical doctor. Neither of them are into UFOs, weird > cults, conspiracies or anything like that. I've known the one for over 25 > years, and the other for maybe 15 years. They are about as buttoned-down, > boring/normal and middle class as you can get. Married, homeowners with > regular jobs and comfortable lives. > > I know it sounds wacky, but thats what we saw. > > Knuke > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke@LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 14:45:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA29474; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:44:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:44:56 -0800 Sender: jack@pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <388F8737.2B0F1583@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 23:45:59 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Michaels Egg - Re: Incunabula - Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip References: <20000126150449109.AAA267@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"ijvqM.0.MC7.eZtZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13729 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Don writes: yer kidding me, right? Michael T Huffman wrote: No, I've reported the event to the group a couple of times ... It looked just like the eggs at the bottom of that [incunabula] webpage** though, when you click on them, except much brighter. A slowly undulating, incandescent, plasma glow, that changed colors. ** Don Adams wrote: Go to http://www.deoxy.org/inc.htm ** It was quite beautiful to look at, but other than that it didn't actually do anything, and there was no way for us to approach it. It looked to be maybe six to eight feet in diameter. Not very big. We figured that it was there for 45 minutes to an hour. There was no movement at all, but it was a very calm night as far as the wind was concerned. Hi Knuke, Did anyone take a picture? Jack Smith From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 17:44:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA05757; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:43:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:43:47 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Michaels Egg - Re: Incunabula - Re: Phenomena report: vanishing paperclip Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:52:34 -0500 Message-ID: <20000127015234640.AAA196@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"-2TiP2.0.rP1.IBwZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13730 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Jack writes: >Hi Knuke, > >Did anyone take a picture? > >Jack Smith I don't know. It was still enough that you could have tried with a tripod, I suppose - on land, of course. Taking one from a boat would have been a joke. I used to do a lot of low level light photography, so I would know how, but I never carried a camera up there. It was a remote enough place (on the Aluetian chain) that there were no local papers or anything like that, but there may have been some people around with the cameras and presence of mind to use them properly. We were just there for a couple of days picking up some gear. I don't even think I went ashore. I was also thinking that it may have been a holographic projection, as well. That would be another reasonable explanation that wouldn't require any new physics, either. It's just hard to say what it really was, but it looked quite like those plasma eggs. Who knows? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 26 20:41:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA16879; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:41:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:41:27 -0800 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 23:40:45 EST Subject: Ice storm coming To: energy21@listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com, brettnichols@yahoo.com, horacex@usa.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 47 Resent-Message-ID: <"YaBja1.0.e74.tnyZu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13731 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com If I don't answer any email till Monday, it may be because my power is off. There is one of the worst winter storms in recent history due to hit the Birmingham, Alabama area tomorrow (Thursday). We don't handle ice and snow very well here because we don't get them very often. We are expected to get seven or more inches of snow mixed with freezing rain at some point. Email me anyway and I will get to them when the power is back on. Thanks, Butch LaFonte From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 12:02:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02505; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:02:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:02:20 -0800 From: HLafonte@aol.com Message-ID: <9.15cf312.25c1fe36@aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:01:58 EST Subject: Another idea To: energy21@listbot.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com, brettnichols@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_9.15cf312.25c1fe36_boundary" X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 47 Resent-Message-ID: <"gDGXB2.0.zc.BHAau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13732 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com --part1_9.15cf312.25c1fe36_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gray is nonmagnetic/nonconductive, red is magnet, blue is iron, black is coil. There are two rotors with hidden magnets, one in each side bar. 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NS5naWZQSwECFAsUAAIACABwbjsox+3nrUMOAAAFEQAABgAAAAAAAAAAACAAAAAgGgAAMTYu Z2lmUEsFBgAAAAACAAIAaAAAAIcoAAAAAA== --part1_9.15cf312.25c1fe36_boundary-- From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 12:20:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08697; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:20:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:20:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3890A898.11C0@cyberportal.net> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:20:40 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nuenergy@listbot.com CC: nuenergy2@listbot.com Subject: It's Heating Up! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AM_302.0.l72.zXAau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13733 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/Ballard&Gates.html -BAP From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 12:29:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA12079; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:29:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:29:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3890AAA5.71D@cyberportal.net> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:29:25 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nuenergy@listbot.com CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Nu Power Fuel Cell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"p92pl2.0.ay2.dgAau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13734 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com http://www.nuenergy.org/nucell.htm -BAP From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 16:56:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA08214; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:56:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:56:46 -0800 Message-ID: <20000128005611.62075.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.227.177] From: "Timothy Flytcher" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: big brother is track you... now now other want to too... Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:56:11 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"GrTgd3.0.C02.DbEau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13735 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Usually when I'm surfing, I don't much worry about being tracked by websites, since all they can really log is that I've been, and whether or not I've clicked on a banner or bought something. Who cares?Ê Not me.Ê The reason that I don't care is that they don't know me by name, only by number.Ê As long as the two can't be connected, that's fine.Ê Now that's all changing... According to USA Today, the largest online advertising agency (Double Click Inc.) has decided that it would like to track you by NAME and ADDRESS. Your real name, and your real address. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/cth211.htm The CEO of Double Click is Kevin O'Connor, and he can be reached at koconnor@doubleclick.netÊ (If you do email him please be civil, and simply voice your concern) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 17:28:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA21880; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:28:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:28:17 -0800 Message-ID: <003401bf692e$f1a68f20$e47d88d8@mikemora> Reply-To: "Mike Moran" From: "Mike Moran" To: References: <20000128005611.62075.qmail@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: big brother is track you... now now other want to too... Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:28:11 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"pH25x1.0.lL5.m2Fau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13736 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com You can visit this site to (supposedly) opt out of the tracking: http://www.doubleclick.net/optout/default.asp Mike Moran mmoranDIESPAMMERDIE@internetwis.com to email me, do the obvious ----- Original Message ----- From: "Timothy Flytcher" To: Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 6:56 PM Subject: big brother is track you... now now other want to too... > Usually when I'm surfing, I don't much worry about being tracked > by websites, since all they can really log is that I've been, > and whether or not I've clicked on a banner or bought something. > Who cares?Ê Not me.Ê The reason that I don't care is that they > don't know me by name, only by number.Ê As long as the two can't > be connected, that's fine.Ê Now that's all changing... > > According to USA Today, the largest online advertising agency > (Double Click Inc.) has decided that it would like to track you > by NAME and ADDRESS. Your real name, and your real address. > > http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/cth211.htm > > The CEO of Double Click is Kevin O'Connor, and he can be > reached at koconnor@doubleclick.netÊ (If you do email him > please be civil, and simply voice your concern) > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 27 18:00:18 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA32075; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:59:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:59:58 -0800 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.2 on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <003401bf692e$f1a68f20$e47d88d8@mikemora> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:02:28 -0800 (PST) Sender: jim@eskimo.com From: Jim Richardson To: Mike Moran Subject: Re: big brother is track you... now now other want to too... Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"VfzPa1.0.2r7.TWFau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13737 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On 28-Jan-2000 Mike Moran wrote: > You can visit this site to (supposedly) opt out of the tracking: > http://www.doubleclick.net/optout/default.asp > > Mike Moran > mmoranDIESPAMMERDIE@internetwis.com > to email me, do the obvious > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Timothy Flytcher" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 6:56 PM > Subject: big brother is track you... now now other want to too... > > >> Usually when I'm surfing, I don't much worry about being tracked >> by websites, since all they can really log is that I've been, >> and whether or not I've clicked on a banner or bought something. >> Who cares?Ê Not me.Ê The reason that I don't care is that they >> don't know me by name, only by number.Ê As long as the two can't >> be connected, that's fine.Ê Now that's all changing... >> >> According to USA Today, the largest online advertising agency >> (Double Click Inc.) has decided that it would like to track you >> by NAME and ADDRESS. Your real name, and your real address. >> >> http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/cth211.htm >> >> The CEO of Double Click is Kevin O'Connor, and he can be >> reached at koconnor@doubleclick.netÊ (If you do email him >> please be civil, and simply voice your concern) > if you are running linux, FreeBSD et al, make a softlink to /dev/null That way, cookies check in, but they don't check out :) Anyone know of a way to have /dev/null for incoming and /dev/random for outgoing cookies? that might be amusing :) Jim Richardson Anarchist, pagan and proud of it WWW.eskimo.com/~warlock Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 06:14:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA06637; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:14:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:14:42 -0800 Message-ID: <20000128141408.38188.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [192.250.113.22] From: "Chris Moon" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: big brother is track you.... little brother grows up and hits back!! Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:14:08 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"300_j.0.Yd1.HHQau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13738 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi For every measure there is a counter measure, To rumble this little caper will people become very selective what they click on (possibly killing the golden goose because the advertisers got too greedy. Or perhaps we create proxy browsers leaving the trail cold. Any other ideas? Cheers Chris M. > >Usually when I'm surfing, I don't much worry about being tracked >by websites, since all they can really log is that I've been, >and whether or not I've clicked on a banner or bought something. >Who cares?Ê Not me.Ê The reason that I don't care is that they >don't know me by name, only by number.Ê As long as the two can't >be connected, that's fine.Ê Now that's all changing... > >According to USA Today, the largest online advertising agency >(Double Click Inc.) has decided that it would like to track you >by NAME and ADDRESS. Your real name, and your real address. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 08:14:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA19505; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:14:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:14:14 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: big brother is track you.... little brother grows up and hits back!! Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:24:52 -0500 Message-ID: <20000128162452218.AAA272@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"CBmWk3.0.cm4.L1Sau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13739 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Chris writes: >Hi > >For every measure there is a counter measure, > >To rumble this little caper will people become very selective what they >click on (possibly killing the golden goose because the advertisers got too >greedy. Or perhaps we create proxy browsers leaving the trail cold. Any >other ideas? > >Cheers We could show our appreciation for all they have so thoughtfully provided for us by sending them our pictures, fingerprints, all other ID info, and maybe some tissue samples as well. It would be easier for both of us. We could e-mail them to let them know when we have bowel movements, too. That may be helpful for them in choosing the products that they know we will like the most, you never know. They are only trying to serve us better, you know. Alternatively, we could send them this... __ | | ____| |__ | | | | | __ | |/ / \ / | / | | Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 14:11:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA12850; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:11:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:11:39 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: big brother is track you.... little brother grows up and hits back!! Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:22:20 -0500 Message-ID: <20000128222220500.AAA268@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"g_zDk3.0.h83.QGXau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13740 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Just ran across this in CNN, http://cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/01/26/chile.glass.house.ap/index.html The interesting thing is that if you want to do this sort of thing as an expression either of art or protest, the police instinctively rush in to stop it. If you actually spy on people however, for a "good reason", like targeted advertising or any other competitive business activity, the police have learned to do nothing. It's a crazy world. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 14:17:50 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA19484; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:17:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:17:05 -0800 (PST) From: Bmd2323@aol.com Message-ID: <6.1730708.25c36f28@aol.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:16:08 EST Subject: Re: big brother is track you.... little brother grows up and hits back!! To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 45 Resent-Message-ID: <"AnYd31.0.Lm4.SLXau"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13741 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Supposedly, if one edits the "cookies.txt" file in your browsers directory, to a "read only file" you don't have to worry about those things. I don't know if its worked, but I've done it, and I know that there are several different websites out there that offer tips and programs which are supposed to help you surf anonymously. I don't know of anyway of testing them to verify that they work, but I do know that none of the ones I've been to have asked for any personal information. I imagine a quick trip to the "Electronic Frontier Freedom" Society's (or whatever its called the initials are "EFF") would provide you with information on finding counter measures for these things. Brian Drake (Bmd2323@aol.com) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 16:39:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA23668; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:39:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:39:38 -0800 Message-ID: <002b01bf69f1$5ad4e600$8598facf@mikemora> Reply-To: "Mike Moran" From: "Mike Moran" To: References: <20000128222220500.AAA268@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Subject: Re: big brother is track you.... little brother grows up and hits back!! Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:39:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"y5IvE2.0.fn5.9RZau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13742 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Artists and protestors don't buy the politicians from whose fingers dangle the marionette strings of the police. Big business does. Not so crazy after all. Mike Moran mmoranDIESPAMMERDIE@internetwis.com (to email me, do the obvious) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael T Huffman" To: Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 4:22 PM Subject: Re: big brother is track you.... little brother grows up and hits back!! > Just ran across this in CNN, > > http://cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/01/26/chile.glass.house.ap/index.html > > The interesting thing is that if you want to do this sort of thing as an > expression either of art or protest, the police instinctively rush in to > stop it. If you actually spy on people however, for a "good reason", like > targeted advertising or any other competitive business activity, the police > have learned to do nothing. It's a crazy world. > > Knuke > > Michael T. Huffman > Huffman Technology Company > 1121 Dustin Drive > The Villages, Florida 32159 > (352)259-1276 > knuke@LCIA.COM > http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 17:12:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA09972; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:11:50 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:11:50 -0800 (PST) From: tv@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:36:55 -0800 Subject: Re: big brother is track you.... little brother grows up and hits back!! Message-ID: <20000128.171137.-442393.3.tv@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-6,8-10 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"6hSR93.0.hR2.EvZau"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13743 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Check out "Fight The Fingerprint" at http://www.networkusa.org/ A very informative website about how far things have gone toward a police state. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 28 17:59:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA16450; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:59:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:59:10 -0800 Message-ID: <5947643.949110563456.JavaMail.imail@bronty> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:49:23 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey D Norris Reply-To: To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: re: Free energy and free information! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 199.174.177.211 Resent-Message-ID: <"OlipN1.0.x04.jbaau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13744 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 22:52:04 -0300, freenrg-l@eskimo.com wrote: > > The KONZEN ELECTRIC PULSE MOTOR > > is a further example of wrong measuring technique. > ... snip > In resonance there is a 90 degree phase difference between voltage and > current. Not true, that describes reactive current. SEE NOTE 1: > So when you have Max Voltage you have Zero Current und when you have > Max Current you have Zero Voltage. > The REAL POWER then is zero. [ cos(90 deg) = 0 ] Only describes instantaneous power input at that time. 45 degrees later power is being inputed. SEE NOTE 2: > In reality, the phase angle is anywhere between 0 and 360 degrees, > therefore the the real power is any value ... Vague way of disclaiming the fact... > As example, I have a generator that produces an output of 3000 Volts at > 30 Amps > = 90'000 VA constantly with an input power of less than 100 watts. > > Wonderful OVERUNITY GENERATOR ??? Wonderful claims with nothing but opinion. A 100 watt draw to move such reactive currents would be truly incredible. Even 30 amps out of phase is a large quantity. HDN SEE NOTE 3: Here my NOTES: -------------- Note 1: This IS true that there is 90 deg phase shift, but it depends where you measure it. HDN reply: cant figure that, no matter what portion of the cycle in time you measure it ,it is still 90 out of phase. Perhaps I have misunderstood your statement. When you feed an (ideal) capacitor with sine wave AC, then you have a (precise) 90 deg phase shift between voltage and current. I wrote "resonance" and did not include a diagram. I refer to voltage over C and current through C, then its true. HDN; yes I agree it acts like that as a reactive element, but perhaps not in resonance when the currents are either closely in phase with the voltage or 180 opposite as in a tank circuit. Note 2: Also for sine wave: Over one cycle of 360 deg you get the states: zero, positive power, zero, negative power. When integrating the power over a full cycle the result is ZERO. Applies also to ideal capacitor (and also to ideal inductor). HDN reply: I am aware that textbooks classify average power to a reactive element as being zero over a cycle time because energy is absorbed and returned to the source. This also indicates that instantaneous power can be positive during rising portion of a cycle, and negative in the falling. The instantaneous power graph for an AC circuit containing BOTH resistance and reactance is also a sine wave at twice the frequency of the input. However this power graph is not equally positive and negative as supposed in a pure reactance. Since the instantaneous power graph is more positive than negative, there is an average or true power component, which represents the true power input to the resistive portion of the circuit. This explains an important difference between real and ideal components,and since an inductor always contains resistance in the real world,it can never react as zero power input even when it comprises a predominantly inductive reactance. This has been a point of confusion by some on the list who assume that reactive automatically implies zero power input because of a misinterpretation of textbook statements. I would suppose that a capacitor must also have small losses in heat, even though it essentially is defined as a wattless reactance with no true energy input over time of cycle. Note 3: This is not a claim based on opinion. This is a real device in operation which I have built and tested under real conditions. It is just a high Q resonant circuit of L and C. Here I repeat the results: Current through L and C : 30 A Voltage over L and C : 3000 V Input power: Less than 100 Watt Felix HDN reply If this were a tank circuit,which I assume to be the case by quoted 100 watt draw then 3000 volts would be taken as input. 100 watts= 3000 volts *(.033A rms amperage reading) For 30 amps to be present in the circuit the coil systems Q would then be 30 times 30 or 900. Using 30 coils of 500ft lengths of 14 gauge as commercially sold only gives a Q of 4.8 at 60 hz, and certainly would never hold 30 amps! In fact the trade off between inductance and resistance makes a high Q, high amperage circuit something seemingly impossible at 60 hz. Your description sounds more like a higher freq tank circuit, something like a radio station so a 100 watt draw still seems low to me. HDN Binary Resonant System http://www.insidetheweb.com/mbs.cgi/mb124201 _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freeworld.excite.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 06:35:08 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA04548; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 06:34:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 06:34:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3892FACD.4E97@cyberportal.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:35:57 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nuenergy@listbot.com CC: nuenergy2@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Something of Interest I Received Today Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Y8hOW.0.y61.Dglau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13745 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Quasiturbine engine - Reduces polluant, and saves energy ! The QUASITURBINE has been designated the "21st century engine" by the "Europeen Automotive Design" magazine, and "Eureka innovative engineering" magazine, and is candidate to the Discover Magazine Awards http://quasiturbine.promci.qc.ca/EQTDiscoverAward00.htm Quasiturbine zero vibration continuous combustion rotary engine, compressor and pump. http://quasiturbine.promci.qc.ca . High torque, low RPM, zero vibration, oil free, fast acceleration, less noisy, less polluant, highest power to volume and weight ratio. Engine for hydraulic, pneumatic, steam, gasoline, diesel, naturel gas, ... photo-detonation mode and hydrogen compatible. Compressor or pump without any check valve or obstruction. A 200 cc per revolution unit producing 14 HP at 3000 rpm soon available. Why is the QUASITURBINE (Qurbine) engine so exceptional ? The Quasiturbine is a concept which improves the conventional engines in 2 ways : in reducing the dead time, and in making better time management in the engine strokes. Keeping in mind that gas turbines have a compression turbine and a power turbine, and that the Quasiturbine results from a research initiated in 1993 aimed at unifying those two turbines into one entity (blades of which work alternatively as a compression turbine and a power turbine). Consequently, it should not be surprising that the Quasiturbine shows similar characteristics with those of the conventional turbine. On the other hand, engines that use crankshaft generate sinusoidal pressure impulses during which the piston stay a relatively long time at the top while it decelerates and reverses direction, and stay briefly at mid-course, which is contrary to the logic of a better engine (Compression impulses should be as short as feasible, and the stay at mid-courses the longest possible for a better mechanical energy extraction). The Quasiturbine is also revolutionary because it generates this new type of pressure impulses different from crankshaft engine ! (In fact, the Quasiturbine assymetry permits "entre autre" to devolve less time to the compression and exhaust strokes, and more time and volume to the intake and expansion strokes). Furthermore, the Quasiturbine brings the engine dead time to zero. http://quasiturbine.promci.qc.ca mailto:quasiturbine@promci.qc.ca 514-527-8484 Fax 514-527-9530 ************************************************** From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 06:52:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA08687; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 06:52:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 06:52:03 -0800 Sender: jack@pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38930CE8.5FF804D6@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:53:12 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: big brother (and others) tracking us References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"X1E6r1.0.d72.Jwlau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13746 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Jim Richardson wrote: if you are running linux, FreeBSD et al, make a softlink to /dev/null That way, cookies check in, but they don't check out. Anyone know of a way to have /dev/null for incoming and /dev/random for outgoing cookies? that might be amusing. Hi Jim, Thanks for the tip. Running under linux in the .netscape directory, I did rm cookies ln -s /dev/null cookies So far with Netscape 3, it works like a charm. I haven't tried it yet with V 4.7. Apparently, cookies are still being set in memory during a session. Any thoughts on how to get around this? Jack Smith From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 07:17:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA17922; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 07:17:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 07:17:33 -0800 Message-ID: <38930415.6014@cyberportal.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:15:33 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nuenergy@listbot.com CC: nuenergy2@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Radiation & Health Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BGOeK1.0.xN4.DImau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13747 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Jim Hardeman, Manager Environmental Radiation Program Environmental Protection Division Georgia Department of Natural Resources 4244 International Parkway, Suite 114 Atlanta, GA 30354 (404) 362-2675 Jim_Hardeman@dnr.state.ga.us JCHardeman2@aol.com ============== Low-level radiation is healthy, professor claims Web posted Friday, January 28, 2000 By Tom Corwin Morris News Service AUGUSTA -- John Cameron's crusade would shock most people: He believes we'renot getting enough radiation. In fact, the amount he recommends -- one-tenth of a Gray per year -- is equivalent to roughly 15,000-20,000 chest X-rays. It is about 100 times what we receive naturally, double the federal limit on yearly exposure and roughly 20 times the limit Savannah River Site strives for with most of its employees. But Cameron, professor emeritus at the University of Wisconsin and now visiting professor at the University of Florida, says he has the studies to back up his contention that radiation is not the health hazard some believe. In fact, there is a hormesis effect, in which low levels are healthy while higher concentrations are dangerous, he said before a lecture Wednesday at the Medical College of Georgia. "Radiation is an essential trace energy for improved health," said Cameron, who is proposing it be taken as a Recommended Annual Value, much like vitamins and minerals. "We need to do studies to find out what is the optimum annual dose rate for improving our health." One study he proposes would be using low-level radiation on the elderly. "I'll propose research on people in retirement homes because these are the people whose immune systems are going downhill," Cameron said. "And there's good evidence that the immune system is stimulated by radiation." Studies have shown people in areas with higher levels of natural radiation, called background radiation, have higher concentrations of killer T-cells in their bodies, said Mal McKibben, executive director of Citizens for Nuclear Technology Awareness. Other studies dispute the connection between lung cancer and radon, a gas produced by radioactive decay, Cameron said. In a study of 1,600 counties nationwide, those with the lowest radon levels had a 30 percent higher rate of lung cancer than those with background radiation levels up to three times as high, he said. "There is a decrease in lung cancer death rates as the radiation increases," said Jon Trueblood, chief of the Section of Medical Physics at the Medical College of Georgia. The mountain states, with higher concentrations of uranium and less shielding from cosmic radiation, actually have a 25 percent lower cancer death rate than Gulf Coast states with lower background levels, Cameron said. One major study in the 1980s compared 29,000 workers at a nuclear shipyard to 30,000 workers at a nonnuclear yard. The nuclear workers had a lower cancer death rate and a 24 percent lower mortality rate overall. Although completed in 1988, it has never been published, said Cameron, who sat on the study's technical advisory panel. "Because it contradicts the standard dogma that radiation is dangerous," he said. "There's billions of dollars being spent to reduce radiation. You don't think those billions of dollars are without influence." -BAP From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 08:09:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA01061; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:08:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:08:55 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:29:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Something of Interest I Received Today Message-ID: <20000129.110148.-434697.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4,9-17 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WkLup3.0.QG.M2nau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13748 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mr. Perreault wrote: >The Quasiturbine is a concept which improves the conventional engines in >2 ways : in reducing the dead time, and in making better time management >in the engine strokes. Sounds very promising, especially if working models have already been built. In the process of "making better time management," does this mean that maintenance costs will be higher? If more precision is required, then the costs will be higher because more precise (and expensive) equiptment will have to be used. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) A sign seen on a restroom hand-dryer at O'Hare Field in Chicago: "Do not activate with wet hands." ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 08:09:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA01075; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:08:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:08:56 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:35:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Radiation & Health Message-ID: <20000129.110148.-434697.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 7-15 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ESEwN3.0.fG.N2nau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13749 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Very interesting! If Prof. Cameron's ideas are proved correct, do you suppose that cities will start adding radioactive mineral salts to drinking water, as they did with flourine? Or perhaps they'll just require a certain amount of radioactive waste dust to be sprinkled by helicopter over major cities. Or, better yet, they'll detonate a few nukes above ground under windy conditions so that the "waste" is distributed over the whole US (and, eventually, the world). After all, if it increases the populace's health, it should be implemented. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) A sign seen on a restroom hand-dryer at O'Hare Field in Chicago: "Do not activate with wet hands." ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 09:04:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA18023; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:04:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:04:42 -0800 Message-ID: <38931DEF.3592@cyberportal.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:05:51 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Radiation & Health References: <20000129.110148.-434697.1.tgrimes1@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AyUpc2.0.WP4.fsnau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13750 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > > Very interesting! If Prof. Cameron's ideas are proved correct, > do you suppose that cities will start adding radioactive mineral > salts to drinking water, as they did with flourine? Or perhaps > they'll just require a certain amount of radioactive waste dust > to be sprinkled by helicopter over major cities. Or, better yet, > they'll detonate a few nukes above ground under windy conditions > so that the "waste" is distributed over the whole US (and, > eventually, the world). After all, if it increases the populace's > health, it should be implemented. > > -Tom Grimes Just use some common-sense man... who said anything about eating the stuff? All the article implies is that we do not need to be so paranoid about radiation. -Bruce A. Perreautl From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 09:06:34 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA19660; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:06:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:06:27 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: big brother (and others) tracking us Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:17:12 -0500 Message-ID: <20000129171712062.AAA66@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"2mczl2.0.4p4.Junau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13751 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Jack writes: >Running under linux in the .netscape directory, I did >rm cookies >ln -s /dev/null cookies > >So far with Netscape 3, it works like a charm. >I haven't tried it yet with V 4.7. > >Apparently, cookies are still being set in memory during >a session. Any thoughts on how to get around this? > >Jack Smith A small, conconcurrently running program that periodically checks the /dev/null directory for additions while surfing could be written. This needn't be large, nor take up much space. A simple, periodic check on the dir size would do, or it could be triggered by any URL changes. Something like that. The program could either erase said cookies immediately, or it could even be tailored to replace the ASCII strings of any offending flat pastries with something like a poem or an ASCII graphic of your making. This would not be harmful to the sender's system, but it would definitely defeat the sender's original purposes of info gathering and whatever else. Using the latter alternative, you would still be leaving a trackable trail of your movements, but at least the crumbs would be more interesting because the messages would be of your own invention. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 10:16:44 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA12021; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:16:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:16:34 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:08:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Radiation & Health Message-ID: <20000129.130823.-444427.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-5,9-17 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"lrc0o.0.jx2.2woau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13752 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:05:51 -0500 "Bruce A. Perreault" writes: > Just use some common-sense man... who said anything about eating > the stuff? All the article implies is that we do not need to be > so paranoid about radiation. Ingestion is one way to insure a constant, low-level dose of radiation. Besides, only the first suggestion has anything to do with eating it. As far as common sense goes, I'm still storing my AmO2 samples in a quadruple-layer foil container. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com mailto:hortophilus@hotmail.com (for attachments) A sign seen on a restroom hand-dryer at O'Hare Field in Chicago: "Do not activate with wet hands." ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 11:11:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA02772; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:11:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:11:22 -0800 Message-ID: <38933B98.1F80@cyberportal.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:12:24 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com Subject: Re: Radiation & Health References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"v_oL7.0.Bh.Qjpau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13753 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Bruce, I heard you say that many times and you were right. I believe low levels of radiation were put on the earth for mans health. It was only when man stuck his finger in the pie and corrupted it by saying its bad, its sooo bad. Man took it and used it in ways it should not have been used. If kept at low levels it could serve all of mankinds energy needs and health needs at the same time. Have a great day. Calvin From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 11:49:17 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15818; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:49:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:49:08 -0800 From: Bmd2323@aol.com Message-ID: <92.ca0588.25c49e0d@aol.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:48:29 EST Subject: Re: Something of Interest I Received Today To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 45 Resent-Message-ID: <"mRWfM3.0._s3.pGqau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13754 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Looks pretty cool, but why is it that sites for things like this (check out www.oxtwo.com for an example of another site featuring similar technological innovation) always want investors, but never make the damn thing available for sale? I don't have enough $ to get them interested in me as an investor, but if they said, "Give us $1000 (or so) and we'll build you one that cranks out 200 HP." I'd buy the thing and then get a mechanic to modify it so I could replace the engine in my car with it. They'd probably get a lot more money and investors doing it that way, than they will just waiting for some wealthy person to show up and plunk down some money. Also, if they sold enough of them, the major automakers would show an interest and at least steal the technology for use in their cars. If these guys are really concerned about the environment, I'd think that that was the way they'd want to go. As it is, they probably aren't going to get anywhere. A number of years ago, two rather wealthy brothers spent all of their own money developing a regenerative flywheel system hoping that when they got it perfected the automakers would buy the design from them. They finished the project and discovered that the automakers couldn't care less. Why? Partly because of the "Not Invented Here" syndrome so prevalent at automakers and also because it was cheaper to ignore the brothers than it was to buy their technology and convert their operations over. IMHO, the only way any of these guys are going to get the big boys to take notice is if they sell a large number of engines to people who convert their cars themselves. Even then, it will take years of selling before this happens. Brian Drake (Bmd2323@aol.com) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 11:49:36 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA16022; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:49:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:49:31 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Radiation & Health Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:11:49 -0500 Message-ID: <20000129191149000.AAA80@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"vcMp_2.0.5w3.AHqau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13755 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Bruce writes: >Just use some common-sense man... who said anything about eating >the stuff? All the article implies is that we do not need to be >so paranoid about radiation. > > > -Bruce A. Perreautl Unfortunately Bruce, it has been my experience that as soon as the words radiation and billions of dollars are inserted into a conversation, all common sense seems to fly right out the window, along with any chance of finding out the truth about the subject from just reading. The fact is, that upon careful examination, the article actually suggests running experiments on the elderly. No mention is made of informed consent in the report, something which has been found to be lacking in many government funded radiation experiments on humans. It seems that many scientists in the past, and even today, treat the general populous like the advertising industry, military, corporate management and government do. They look at the world as if it were a giant rat lab in which they are free to play for their own personal enjoyment, edification and/or profit. If this scientist's claim has any merit, it should be studied further in the proper laboratories along with the help and supervision of his peers, and the studies should be done in the public domain without the influence of profiteers. At present, the overwhelming body of evidence suggests that radiation even from sunlight is a genetic mutagen that causes cancers even in low dosages. A claim to the contrary may be valid, but only within very narrow window of parameters, the consideration of which is not evident in this man's report. For example, a certain amount of radiation may not be harmful for some people, but it would be for others. The fact that people are made differently seems to be missed in some studies. Your assertion that we should not be so paranoid about radiation is correct, but it should not be misconstrued to mean that radiation is harmless. We should continue to treat it knowlegably and with respect. Your efforts and research in this field have been very helpful in this regard. I've learned a lot from the little I have read of your posts, but I also get the impression that along with some of the insights that you have shared that are actually true discoveries, there exists some gaps in your knowlege that may need to be addressed before I would personally want to build one of your devices. This goes for JL Naudin's work and some others, including my own work, as well. Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 16:57:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA24479; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:57:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:57:44 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Radiation & Health Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:57:07 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1h279sctaius84t88u4vjs3iftni6o2o19@4ax.com> References: <38930415.6014@cyberportal.net> In-Reply-To: <38930415.6014@cyberportal.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA24443 Resent-Message-ID: <"1l-Qi2.0.N-5.7ouau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13756 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:15:33 -0500, Bruce A. Perreault wrote: >Jim Hardeman, Manager >Environmental Radiation Program >Environmental Protection Division >Georgia Department of Natural Resources >4244 International Parkway, Suite 114 >Atlanta, GA 30354 >(404) 362-2675 >Jim_Hardeman@dnr.state.ga.us >JCHardeman2@aol.com >============== > >Low-level radiation is healthy, professor claims > >Web posted Friday, January 28, 2000 > >By Tom Corwin >Morris News Service > >AUGUSTA -- John Cameron's crusade would shock most people: >He believes we'renot getting enough radiation. [snip] >"I'll propose research on people in retirement homes because these are >the people whose immune systems are going downhill," Cameron said. >"And there's good evidence that the immune system is stimulated by >radiation." > >Studies have shown people in areas with higher levels of natural >radiation, called background radiation, have higher concentrations of >killer T-cells in their bodies, said Mal McKibben, executive director >of Citizens for Nuclear Technology Awareness. All this observation says to me is that the immune system of these people found it necessary to grow more killer T-cells because it perceived a greater threat to the integrity of the organism. IOW more killer T-cells isn't necessarily a good thing. > >Other studies dispute the connection between lung cancer and radon, >a gas produced by radioactive decay, Cameron said. In a study of >1,600 counties nationwide, those with the lowest radon levels had a >30 percent higher rate of lung cancer than those with background >radiation levels up to three times as high, he said. > >"There is a decrease in lung cancer death rates as the radiation >increases," said Jon Trueblood, chief of the Section of Medical >Physics at the Medical College of Georgia. The mountain states, >with higher concentrations of uranium and less shielding from >cosmic radiation, actually have a 25 percent lower cancer death >rate than Gulf Coast states with lower background levels, >Cameron said. Don't the mountain states also have cleaner air? > >One major study in the 1980s compared 29,000 workers at a nuclear >shipyard to 30,000 workers at a nonnuclear yard. The nuclear workers >had a lower cancer death rate and a 24 percent lower mortality rate >overall. Although completed in 1988, it has never been published, >said Cameron, who sat on the study's technical advisory panel. A lower overall mortality rate could also be due to higher level of care in general being taken in nuclear yards, thereby reducing the number of accidents. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 17:00:26 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA26370; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:59:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:59:57 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: big brother (and others) tracking us Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:58:47 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <38930CE8.5FF804D6@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> In-Reply-To: <38930CE8.5FF804D6@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id QAA26314 Resent-Message-ID: <"D1Pdp2.0.vR6.9quau"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13757 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:53:12 +0000, Taylor J. Smith wrote: [snip] >Apparently, cookies are still being set in memory during >a session. Any thoughts on how to get around this? [snip] Just set the option in Netscape, that tells it not to set cookies? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 17:16:58 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA09466; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:16:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:16:50 -0800 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.2 on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000129171712062.AAA66@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:20:36 -0800 (PST) Sender: jim@eskimo.com From: Jim Richardson To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: big brother (and others) tracking us Resent-Message-ID: <"aiE0g.0.oJ2.24vau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13758 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On 29-Jan-2000 Michael T Huffman wrote: > Jack writes: >>Running under linux in the .netscape directory, I did >>rm cookies >>ln -s /dev/null cookies >> >>So far with Netscape 3, it works like a charm. >>I haven't tried it yet with V 4.7. >> >>Apparently, cookies are still being set in memory during >>a session. Any thoughts on how to get around this? >> >>Jack Smith > > A small, conconcurrently running program that periodically checks the > /dev/null directory for additions while surfing could be written. This > needn't be large, nor take up much space. A simple, periodic check on the > dir size would do, or it could be triggered by any URL changes. Something > like that. The program could either erase said cookies immediately, or it > could even be tailored to replace the ASCII strings of any offending flat > pastries with something like a poem or an ASCII graphic of your making. > This would not be harmful to the sender's system, but it would definitely > defeat the sender's original purposes of info gathering and whatever else. > Using the latter alternative, you would still be leaving a trackable trail > of your movements, but at least the crumbs would be more interesting because > the messages would be of your own invention. > > Knuke > > Um, /dev/null is a black hole, nothing ever comes out of it. you can't check it, it's a zero byte special file. Jim Richardson Anarchist, pagan and proud of it WWW.eskimo.com/~warlock Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 17:22:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA16973; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:22:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:22:23 -0800 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.2 on Linux X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38930CE8.5FF804D6@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:26:04 -0800 (PST) Sender: jim@eskimo.com From: Jim Richardson To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: big brother (and others) tracking us Resent-Message-ID: <"YXim11.0.y84.E9vau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13759 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On 29-Jan-2000 Taylor J. Smith wrote: > > Jim Richardson wrote: > > if you are running linux, FreeBSD et al, make a softlink to /dev/null > That way, cookies check in, but they don't check out. > > Anyone know of a way to have /dev/null for incoming and /dev/random for > outgoing cookies? that might be amusing. > > Hi Jim, > > Thanks for the tip. > > Running under linux in the .netscape directory, I did > rm cookies > ln -s /dev/null cookies > > So far with Netscape 3, it works like a charm. > I haven't tried it yet with V 4.7. > > Apparently, cookies are still being set in memory during > a session. Any thoughts on how to get around this? > > Jack Smith Hm, I was unaware of this, I think I'll poke around gdb and trace registers and tmp files and see if there's a way to stop that. Also, some proxies will filter out cookies I think, but I don't know which one will do this specifically. Jim Richardson Anarchist, pagan and proud of it WWW.eskimo.com/~warlock Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 17:27:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA22208; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:27:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:27:06 -0800 Message-ID: <00c101bf6ac1$04ec7160$1d5cadd1@default> From: "Jim Shaffer, Jr." To: References: <20000128005611.62075.qmail@hotmail.com> <003401bf692e$f1a68f20$e47d88d8@mikemora> Subject: Re: big brother is track you... now now other want to too... Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:11:34 -0500 Organization: Unconventional Conventionalists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Zhy2V1.0.vQ5.fDvau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13760 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > You can visit this site to (supposedly) opt out of the tracking: > http://www.doubleclick.net/optout/default.asp And when I try, I get a security error. -- "I'd rather have my country die for me." --Grace Slick, 'rejoyce' From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 17:42:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA30996; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:42:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:42:16 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: big brother (and others) tracking us Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:52:57 -0500 Message-ID: <20000130015257171.AAA62@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"5UU-g.0.Da7.tRvau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13761 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Jim writes: >Um, /dev/null is a black hole, nothing ever comes out of it. you can't check >it, it's a zero byte special file. Somebody just corrected me on this privately, as well. It shows how much I know about LINUX, eh? /dev/null is a null device. You could still do what I suggested earlier though, if you left the cookies.txt file in the normal place, and checked the filesize. Even a JAVA program might be able to do this on more platforms. I've downloaded instructions on both JAVA and Javascript programming, but haven't had time to read them yet. There are other variations or schemes that I could think of to throw the data collectors' numbers way off in ways that would be humorous, but a significant number of people would have to use them, and it would just clog up the net with a lot of useless traffic. Data wars, who needs 'em. Thanks, Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 18:52:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA16217; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:52:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:52:12 -0800 Message-ID: <001601bf6acd$101deda0$7398facf@mikemora> Reply-To: "Mike Moran" From: "Mike Moran" To: References: <20000128005611.62075.qmail@hotmail.com> <003401bf692e$f1a68f20$e47d88d8@mikemora> <00c101bf6ac1$04ec7160$1d5cadd1@default> Subject: Re: big brother is track you... now now other want to too... Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:52:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Resent-Message-ID: <"2vrxt2.0.Cz3.RTwau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13762 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com It worked for me the first time I tried it and activated the opt-out, and it worked again just now when it gave me the "already opted out" page. Perhaps, Jim, you personally are *such* a valuable commodity to advertisers that they just won't let you go. ;>) When I activated the opt-out, it told me first that there was an ID number in the cookie on my hard-drive (and showed me what the number supposedly was), and that if I proceeded to opt out the ID number would be changed to the value OPT_OUT. Just now, I did a search in my C:\Windows\Profiles\Mike\cookies folder (there's more than one user set up on my machine, if yours is single-user it might be just C:\Windows\Cookies) and found a cookie with the name: mike@doubleclick[2].txt (implying that their might be more than one) which contained the following: id OPT_OUT doubleclick.net/ 0 1468938752 31583413 200257376 29321519 * If you can't get into the site for some reason, maybe you can find this cookie on your machine and manually edit it. I haven't searched extensively and can't swear that there aren't others, but here at least the process seems to have done what they claim. Of course, they didn't say what those other numbers might be for, so there's no guarantee that it's not just a smokescreen. Mike Moran mmoranDIESPAMMERDIE@internetwis.com (to email me, do the obvious) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Shaffer, Jr." To: Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2000 5:11 PM Subject: Re: big brother is track you... now now other want to too... > > You can visit this site to (supposedly) opt out of the tracking: > > http://www.doubleclick.net/optout/default.asp > > And when I try, I get a security error. > > -- > "I'd rather have my country die for me." --Grace Slick, 'rejoyce' > > > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 19:01:39 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA24266; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 19:01:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 19:01:31 -0800 From: "Phil Henshaw" To: Subject: Some rather strange convection.... Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:58:13 -0500 Message-ID: <000101bf6acd$db1cc940$e1d984a9@hp-customer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"iLPXX2.0.3x5.Bcwau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13763 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Fairly easily reproduced convection experiments (smoke in a box http://idt.net/~ph/airbox.htm) seem to show energy storage and release by a new mechanism. I've circulated this a little and so far folks seem to be either left sort of dysfunctionally speechless, or filled with rage(!) I must say it took several years to get used to the idea myself. The problem presented may be strange but I don't think it's going away any time soon.... -- Phil Henshaw ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 167 W 87th St NY NY 10024 tel: 212-579-2914 homepage: idt.net/~ph From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 20:13:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA11294; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:13:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:13:38 -0800 Sender: jack@pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3893C8C5.71D97ECC@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 05:14:45 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: big brother (and others) tracking us References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"xDr8r.0.Jm2.ofxau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13764 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Jack wrote: Apparently, cookies are still being set in memory during a session. Any thoughts on how to get around this? Robin wrote: Just set the option in Netscape, that tells it not to set cookies? Jim wrote: Hm, I was unaware of this, I think I'll poke around gdb and trace registers and tmp files and see if there's a way to stop that. Also, some proxies will filter out cookies I think, but I don't know which one will do this specifically. Knuke wrote: There are other variations or schemes that I could think of to throw the data collectors' ... Hi All, I don't dare set Netscape to "no cookies" because some sites won't let me in if I don't let them think they have set a cookie -- for example, the local county auditor although I have paid my $10 and registered. I have to enter a login name and a password, but I also have to let the Auditor think he's set 3 cookies each time I log in. I like Knuke's idea, and also Jim's /dev/random suggestion; but my goal is to be as invisible as possible, not make waves. If Jim comes up with a way to clean out memory (if in fact cookies are being set in memory during a session), I would like to know how to do it, without alerting the cookie setters. Jack Smith From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 21:36:13 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA27216; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:36:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:36:05 -0800 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:35:57 -0600 (CST) From: Zack Widup X-Sender: w9sz@bluestem To: tgrimes1@juno.com cc: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Radiation & Health In-Reply-To: <20000129.130823.-444427.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"eFbwi2.0.9f6.5tyau"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13765 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sat, 29 Jan 2000 tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > On Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:05:51 -0500 "Bruce A. Perreault" > writes: > > Just use some common-sense man... who said anything about eating > > the stuff? All the article implies is that we do not need to be > > so paranoid about radiation. > > Ingestion is one way to insure a constant, low-level dose of radiation. The last time I did that I got atomic ache! (Sorry, I just had to inject some humor here. It's been a wierd day, I just drove 150 miles in a blizzard.) Zack From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 23:35:49 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA15423; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:35:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:35:15 -0800 Message-ID: <3893E99C.F9DE23AD@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:34:52 -0800 From: eks1 Reply-To: eks1@earthlink.net Organization: Systems Research Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: V/UHF in a blizzard? (was Re: Radiation & Health References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"J_ecq2.0.nm3.jc-au"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13766 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Zack Widup wrote: > The last time I did that I got atomic ache! (Sorry, I just had to inject > some humor here. It's been a wierd day, I just drove 150 miles in a > blizzard.) > > Zack Say Zack, I know you're a big fan of V/UHF on the Amateur bands (as am I) how well do you get out on 2m/440/etc from your mobile in a blizzard? -Erik (aka KB6LUY) From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 23:37:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA16359; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:37:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:37:42 -0800 Message-ID: <20000130073709.25641.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.227.157] From: "Timothy Flytcher" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Radiation & Health Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:37:09 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"VxbbW1.0.Q_3.5f-au"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13767 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com > > > >One major study in the 1980s compared 29,000 workers at a nuclear > >shipyard to 30,000 workers at a nonnuclear yard. The nuclear workers > >had a lower cancer death rate and a 24 percent lower mortality rate > >overall. Although completed in 1988, it has never been published, > >said Cameron, who sat on the study's technical advisory panel. > >A lower overall mortality rate could also be due to higher level of care in >general being taken in nuclear yards, thereby reducing the number of >accidents. >[snip] > Well I don't know about shipyards... but... electric power plants keep their workers exposure to a minimum... If a job is going to be "hot" then they bring in "travailing crews" from nonnuclear plants to do the work... they "burn them out " then send them back home... Timothy... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 29 23:57:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA19384; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:57:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:57:26 -0800 Message-ID: <20000130075652.76785.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [63.27.227.157] From: "Timothy Flytcher" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: big brother (and others) tracking us Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:56:52 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"rDV46.0.jk4.bx-au"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13768 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Ok now hold on.... I thought I kew what cookies were... now I'm not so sure... what are cookies??? is "set cookies" the same as "except cookies"??? Timothy... >Apparently, cookies are still being set in memory during >a session. Any thoughts on how to get around this? >Just set the option in Netscape, that tells it not to set cookies? > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 00:11:59 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA22208; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 00:11:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 00:11:54 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: big brother (and others) tracking us Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 03:22:39 -0500 Message-ID: <20000130082239640.AAA206@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"hXuHT1.0.vQ5.99_au"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13769 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Jack writes: >If Jim comes up with a way to clean out memory (if in fact >cookies are being set in memory during a session), I would like >to know how to do it, without alerting the cookie setters. > >Jack Smith Maybe turn the Cookies Option on when you visit the sites that require this, then delete the cookies file manually immediately after you are through making your visit to those sites, and then set the preference back to No Cookies, and surf on. Stupid Cookies... Arrrggg... Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 00:24:54 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA06417; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 00:23:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 00:23:48 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Radiation & Health Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 03:34:20 -0500 Message-ID: <20000130083420796.AAA272@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"HJ0S93.0.Aa1.IK_au"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13770 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tim writes: >Well I don't know about shipyards... but... electric power plants keep their >workers exposure to a minimum... If a job is going to be "hot" then they >bring in "travailing crews" from nonnuclear plants to do the work... they >"burn them out " then send them back home... >Timothy... Yeah, they did that at Boeing once that I know of. A friend of mine was a driver for a temp agency in Seattle. He would take crews out to where-ever they were needed. He said that Boeing called, and said that they needed a clean-up crew for an area that had been flood damaged. He drove the crew out there, and they took them into a room that was covered with an inch or so of this red dust. He said to the supervisor, "I thought this was a flood damage job", and they ushered him back to the gate immediately. One of the cleanup guys spilled a soft drink while sweeping this stuff up, it started bubbling and the supervisor went totally nuts on the guy. Anyway, the next day, all the guys from that crew were sicker than dogs, and couldn't work for a couple of weeks. They had no insurance or anything like that, of course. They were just "temps". Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 04:53:45 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA24844; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 04:53:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 04:53:34 -0800 Sender: jack@pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <389442A1.691B0382@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:54:41 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: big brother (and others) tracking us References: <20000130082239640.AAA206@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WX5-13.0.546.EH3bu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13771 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Michael T Huffman wrote: > > Jack writes: > > If Jim comes up with a way to clean out memory (if in fact > cookies are being set in memory during a session), I would like > to know how to do it, without alerting the cookie setters. > > Jack Smith > > Knuke wrote: > > Maybe turn the Cookies > Option on when you visit the sites that require this, > then delete the cookies file manually immediately after you are through > making your visit to those sites, and then set the preference back to No > Cookies, and surf on. Stupid Cookies... Arrrggg... > Hi Knuke, That's what I used to do before I linked cookies to /dev/null. Sometimes I ran with the option set to "approve" cookies; this was really annoying -- I'd get 6 of them stacked up; and as fast as I'd cancel one, another would pop up. It's getting worse. I was very disappointed when Alta Vista started pouring them on. Great tip! Jim Jack Smith From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 05:11:53 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA27795; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 05:11:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 05:11:51 -0800 From: Alan Schneider To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: big brother (and others) tracking us Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 00:11:21 +1100 Message-ID: References: <3893C8C5.71D97ECC@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> In-Reply-To: <3893C8C5.71D97ECC@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.6/32.525 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA27770 Resent-Message-ID: <"C3dQl1.0.8o6.MY3bu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13772 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sun, 30 Jan 2000 05:14:45 +0000, "Taylor J. Smith" wrote: >Hi All, >I don't dare set Netscape to "no cookies" because some sites >won't let me in if I don't let them think they have set a >cookie -- >I like Knuke's idea, and also Jim's /dev/random suggestion; >but my goal is to be as invisible as possible, not make waves. The best method I have come across for handling the cookie problem is to get a cookie manager program (I use Cookie Pal from Kookaburra Software - http://www.kburra.com ) You can set it to always accept cookies from certain sites, always ignore them from others, and for any sites it doesn't yet have listed, it will pop up and ask ... great program... and there are quite a few others around that perform similar functions. Just check out Tucows or one of the other shareware/freeware repositories. >If Jim comes up with a way to clean out memory (if in fact >cookies are being set in memory during a session), I would like >to know how to do it, without alerting the cookie setters. There is no way to avoid alerting the cookie setters... Once the server has set a cookie, it can ask for its value at any time. If you haven't allowed it to be stored locally, it can't be sent back. HTH Cheers all Alan Schneider From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 05:33:14 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA32564; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 05:33:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 05:33:10 -0800 Message-ID: <20000130133239.53469.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [62.60.7.226] From: "Chris Moon" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: big brother (and others) tracking us Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 05:32:38 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"1aJzI1.0.jy7.Ls3bu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13773 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com I'm impressed by the ideas out there.. I treat cookies as potential trojans.. I guess it won't be to long before we get Java cookies that may upload all cookie info to an interested party or worse.. equivilent things can happen in Email easily enough. I wouldn't be surprised if soon there aren't equivalent anti-virus programs for snooping on the internet on the market soon. But I find sending tracindental number to nosey neighbours quite appealing! But imagine if you did a search an came up with 'innocent sounding' sites ... and it left an interesting profile for somebody to interpret.. The trouble with the web is it can be too invasive. I think that the way the systems are going the control of the PC/box is being taken away from the individual/private domain and put into the public or other central control, which is dangerous and open to abuse. But I suppose like all things its a bit like finding 'Narnia' ('The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe' by CS Lewis) has a few dodgy characters! Like d the Art work.. I might try Morse -.-. --- --- .-.. Cheers Chris >Maybe turn the Cookies Option on when you visit the sites that require >this, >then delete the cookies file manually immediately after you are through >making your visit to those sites, and then set the preference back to No >Cookies, and surf on. Stupid Cookies... Arrrggg... > >Knuke > >Michael T. Huffman >Huffman Technology Company >1121 Dustin Drive >The Villages, Florida 32159 >(352)259-1276 >knuke@LCIA.COM >http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 06:09:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA08306; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 06:09:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 06:09:03 -0800 Sender: jack@pop.centurytel.net Message-ID: <38945455.F315D64@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:10:13 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: big brother (and others) tracking us References: <3893C8C5.71D97ECC@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"71eOf2.0.c12.-N4bu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13774 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Alan Schneider wrote: > > Taylor J. Smith wrote: > > I don't dare set Netscape to "no cookies" because some sites > won't let me in if I don't let them think they have set a > cookie -- > > I like Knuke's idea, and also Jim's /dev/random suggestion; > but my goal is to be as invisible as possible, not make waves. > > Alan Schneider wrote: > > The best method I have come across for handling the cookie > problem is to get a cookie manager program (I use Cookie Pal > from Kookaburra Software - http://www.kburra.com ) > Hi Alan, Cookie Pal looks like a good product, but they don't appear to have a version for Linux. Maybe it would be best for me to allow cookies to be set in memory during a session because the setter's check that the cookie is set would probably be immediate. I don't mind logging in at a site during another session because their previous cookie is not there. Your further thoughts would be appreciated. Jack Smith From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 06:45:07 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA13046; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 06:44:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 06:44:48 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:20:42 -0500 Subject: Re: big brother (and others) tracking us Message-ID: <20000130.093711.-423121.3.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-10,12,14,16-20,29-36 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"hYnUw1.0.lB3.Uv4bu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13775 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sun, 30 Jan 2000 03:22:39 -0500 knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) writes: > Jack writes: > >If Jim comes up with a way to clean out memory (if in fact > >cookies are being set in memory during a session), I would like > >to know how to do it, without alerting the cookie setters. > > > >Jack Smith > > Maybe turn the Cookies Option on when you visit the sites that require this, > then delete the cookies file manually immediately after you are through > making your visit to those sites, and then set the preference back to No > Cookies, and surf on. Stupid Cookies... Arrrggg... > > Knuke Why not just add a line to Autoexec.bat (for Windows 95 & DOS computers) to delete the cookies file(s) every time the computer starts up? I suspect it would work in other systems, too, but I don't know the specifics. Whenever I want to get rid of my cookies I just delete the whole file, the browser I use (Netscape) automatically generates a new cookie file when a site places a cookie. The do/do not accept cookies option is good, but some sites won't let you on if your computer doesn't accept cookies. Who had the bright idea of naming them "cookies" anyhow?!? -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com ----------------------------------------- >From Newspaper Headlines: "L.A. voters approve urban renewal by landslide" ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 11:49:01 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA10178; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:46:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:46:44 -0800 Message-ID: <389495C7.80451F48@netzero.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:49:27 -0800 From: POTTED PLANT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: big brother (and others) tracking us References: <20000130.093711.-423121.3.tgrimes1@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AMq7I.0.xU2.YK9bu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13776 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Who named them cookies? I heard it was Bill Gates. "Wanna cookie lil' girl?' David tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > Who had the bright idea of naming them "cookies" > anyhow?!? > > -Tom Grimes > > mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com -- E-mail to: broompilot@netzero.net Or To: broompilot@juno.com Fax to: 1-253-681-1133 __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 13:34:12 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA12733; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:34:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:34:05 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: big brother (and others) tracking us Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:33:27 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20000130075652.76785.qmail@hotmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20000130075652.76785.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA12700 Resent-Message-ID: <"mQqP-.0.s63.DvAbu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13777 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sat, 29 Jan 2000 23:56:52 PST, Timothy Flytcher wrote: >Ok now hold on.... I thought I kew what cookies were... now I'm not so >sure... >what are cookies??? >is "set cookies" the same as "except cookies"??? >Timothy... Yes, that's what I meant. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 15:42:11 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA27160; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:40:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:40:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3894CC14.CA7@cyberportal.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:41:08 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Say What is On your Mind!" CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Radiation in the news References: <38905CAC.2398@cyberportal.net> <018501bf6b67$387ec9a0$c205f9d1@multipath> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6kaZJ2.0.6e6.klCbu"@mx2> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13778 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Rex Doane wrote: > > This in the news today! Looks suspiciously like pre-spin control on the > dangers of radiation! Guess we have them worried now... boy do we have a surprise for them. I strongly suspect that it is the chemicals involved in the manufacture of U-235 that is the cancer causing agent. To be more precise... fluorine! These idiots have put this deadly gas into our drinking water. It is no wonder that every one in four americans now have cancer, as compared to one in eight-hundred back in the 70s. -Bruce A. Perreault > > =================================== > > U.S. says workers' cancer may be linked to nuclear radiation > > WASHINGTON (CNN) -- For the first time, the federal government has > acknowledged that workers in U.S. nuclear weapons facilities were exposed on > the job to radiation that may be linked to cancer and other ailments. > > "Yes, there were exposures," Energy Secretary Bill Richardson said on > Saturday in an interview with CNN. > > CNN's Jonathan Aiken reports on preliminary findings that higher incidences > of 22 different kinds of cancer have been found in workers at 14 different > U.S. nuclear weapons facilities. > > Richardson made the acknowledgment after receiving a preliminary report on > the effects of radiation and cancer- causing chemicals on workers that was > prepared by the Department of Energy and the White House. > > The acknowledgment represents a fundamental change in DOE policy. > > "Our policy used to be, 'There is no link,'" Richardson said. "If you got > sick, it was because of something else." Workers, Richardson said, "... > weren't actively lied to, but they were not informed of potential exposures, > so it's not a direct lie, but it could be they were not leveled with." > > Rep. Paul Kanjorski, D-Pennsylvania, said, "This is stepping up and taking > responsibility for governmental activity -- albeit in many instances in > ignorance -- that injured American working men and women." > > 'They weren't told the truth' > > The acknowledgment raises the possibility that the government might > eventually compensate radiation victims or their survivors. > > Richardson predicted the number of people who possibly could qualify for > compensation would be in the "low thousands," adding that they could receive > "in the low hundred millions" in compensation. > > "I don't think we should look at the cost," Richardson said. "I think, as a > nation, we should look at the dignity of these workers, the protection of > these workers. They weren't told the truth. If we find they were harmed by > exposures ... I think it is the duty of the government ... to take care of > these workers." > > Richardson: 'Yes, there were exposures' > > Study lists sites of possible exposure > > The preliminary study cited higher-than-normal incidences of 22 kinds of > cancer, including leukemia; Hodgkin's lymphoma; and prostate, kidney, and > lung cancer among 600,000 workers at 14 nuclear weapons plants. > > Among the plants cited were Oak Ridge National Laboratory in Tennessee; > Savannah River in South Carolina; Hanford in Washington; Rocky Flats in > Arvada, Colorado; Fernald Feed Materials Center near Cincinnati; Lawrence > Livermore National Laboratory in Livermore, California; and Los Alamos > National Laboratory, in Los Alamos, New Mexico. > > The study, which is to be completed next month, was commissioned by > President Clinton last July, when another study showed that workers in > plants where the material beryllium was used were at increased risk of > developing beryllium disease, an incurable lung ailment. > > Clinton then ordered the DOE to look into whether workers in U.S. Defense > plants may also have been exposed to radiation linked to other diseases. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 16:33:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA05870; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:33:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:33:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3894D86C.7210@cyberportal.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:33:48 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nuenergy@listbot.com CC: nuenergy2@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Urgent! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vQIGz1.0.dR1.WXDbu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13779 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dear Supporters, This was brought to my attention today. In response I am not filing for my patent. This is just too close for comfort. For those of you who have requested to distribute the Nu Power Fuel Cells please forward a self-addressed stamped #10 envelope to me. I will in turn send you a hardcopy of my basic fuel cell design. This comprises one sheet with text on both sides detailing the invention. It also includes a diagram of the cell. It is dated and notorized by my bank. I think the best way to proceed now is to give a public disclosure at this point. The next step is to build production runs and sell them to everyone that we come into contact with. As a team we can hit the market hard! Any feedback at this point is welcome. If I am going about this in the wrong way please let me know. -Bruce A. Perreault http://www.escribe.com/science/keelynet/m7874.html http://www.manufacturing.net/magazine/dn/archives/current/tech.html Driving cars with hydrogen peroxide Researchers at Purdue University (West Lafayette, IN) are developing a new type of environmentally friendly fuel cell that runs on chemical reactions between hydrogen peroxide and aluminum and generates about 20 times more electricity per pound than car batteries, claim the developers. "It has a huge amount of energy potential," says John Rusek, an assistant professor of aeronautics and astronautics at Purdue, who is working with students to develop the cell. The hydrogen peroxide serves two roles: it is a "catholyte," meaning it is both the electrolyte, a liquid that conducts electricity and allows the reaction to occur, and also the cathode, or the portion of the battery that attracts electrons. The aluminum serves as the cell's fuel and its anode; as it oxidizes, it gives up electrons. Waste products include water and recyclable chemical compounds. The experimental cells do not immediately provide a steady supply of electricity. It takes about two hours for the cells to reach their peak electrical output before producing a steady current flow. If perfected, such an electricity source could one day replace conventional batteries in many applications, including portable electronic equipment, Rusek says. A poster paper about the research was presented in November,1999 during the Second International Hydrogen Peroxide Propulsion Conference at the University. Call: (765) 494-4782 or e-mail: rusek@ecn.purdue.edu. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 21:03:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA19851; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:02:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:02:41 -0800 Message-ID: <3895176C.D3D0DC88@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:02:36 -0800 From: eks1 Reply-To: eks1@earthlink.net Organization: Systems Research Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-GB,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freenrg-L@eskimo.com" Subject: Fuel Cell? (was Re: Urgent! References: <3894D86C.7210@cyberportal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PRFXV2.0.4s4.lTHbu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13780 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com "Bruce A. Perreault" wrote: > Dear Supporters, > > This was brought to my attention today. > In response I am not filing for my patent. > This is just too close for comfort. > > For those of you who have requested to distribute > the Nu Power Fuel Cells please forward a self-addressed > stamped #10 envelope to me. I will in turn send you a > hardcopy of my basic fuel cell design. This comprises > one sheet with text on both sides detailing the invention. > It also includes a diagram of the cell. It is dated and > notorized by my bank. > > I think the best way to proceed now is to give a public > disclosure at this point. The next step is to build production > runs and sell them to everyone that we come into contact with. > As a team we can hit the market hard! > > Any feedback at this point is welcome. If I am going about this > in the wrong way please let me know. > > -Bruce A. Perreault Bruce, Are you saying that your newest device is a fuel cell? And that it will require the addition of h2o2 and aluminium as it's "fuel" sources? What happened to the Moray device? I'm interested, of course, but the whole idea was to move AWAY from using fuel and tap into the Dirac Sea of Energy...are you planning a similar licensing of the technology with your Moray-like device?? That's what I'm really interested in setting up to build. My experiments with the Chernetski Plasma device are still not showing OU.. -Erik From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jan 30 21:20:56 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA24187; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:20:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:20:37 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Secure Web Surfing Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 00:31:24 -0500 Message-ID: <20000131053124625.AAA159@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"lHEZm3.0.qv5.bkHbu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13781 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Ahoy! These guys have a free surfing service, and some premium services for e-mail, surfing, et. al. They also have an affiliate program that looks like it might be worth a couple of bucks. I haven't tried any of it, so have at it, and let us know. http://www.anonymizer.com/ Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 06:56:32 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA01130; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:56:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:56:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3895A2B6.17AF@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:56:54 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mark@plug-in.com.br CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Urgent! References: <200001310115.XAA18280@bigbox.plug-in.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zxE4t2.0.UH.EAQbu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13782 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Marcelo Puhl wrote: > > Hello Mr. Perreault, > > I would like to distribute your fuel cell here in Brasil. > Maybe we can set some commercial arrangement. > Can I get the hardcopy of your design? > > Thanks in advance. Yes! Anyone who is interested in being a distributor can send a self-addressed stamped No. 10 envelope to, Bruce A. Perreault P.O. Box 22 Rumney, NH 03266 USA -BAP From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 07:00:47 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA02506; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:58:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:58:43 -0800 Message-ID: <38959F39.52B5@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:42:01 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: eks1@earthlink.net CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, nuenergy2@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fuel Cell? (was Re: Urgent!) References: <3894D86C.7210@cyberportal.net> <3895176C.D3D0DC88@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pvWpw3.0.3d.YCQbu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13783 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com eks1 wrote: > > "Bruce A. Perreault" wrote: > > > Dear Supporters, > > > > This was brought to my attention today. > > In response I am not filing for my patent. > > This is just too close for comfort. > > > > For those of you who have requested to distribute > > the Nu Power Fuel Cells please forward a self-addressed > > stamped #10 envelope to me. I will in turn send you a > > hardcopy of my basic fuel cell design. This comprises > > one sheet with text on both sides detailing the invention. > > It also includes a diagram of the cell. It is dated and > > notorized by my bank. > > > > I think the best way to proceed now is to give a public > > disclosure at this point. The next step is to build production > > runs and sell them to everyone that we come into contact with. > > As a team we can hit the market hard! > > > > Any feedback at this point is welcome. If I am going about this > > in the wrong way please let me know. > > > > -Bruce A. Perreault > > Bruce, > > Are you saying that your newest device is a fuel cell? At first glance it may appear to be a fuel cell. Calling it a fuel cell is the best way to market it at this point. However, it is unique in that it can convert ions from radioactive material or from the electronic ion pump into electrical current. It may even use hygrogen peroxide... but this is not the best way to utilize the conversion principle. > > And that it will require the addition of h2o2 and aluminium > as it's "fuel" sources? It does not require hydrogen peroxide. However, it can be used in the cell. I am getting jumpy because I fear that Purdue may stumble onto my present design. You will see this when I publish it on my website. I need to send out hard copies first to qualify the release of this information as a publication. The internet is not a fixed media. Once the information is published it is public domain. I am trusting in people that most will support my mission and become part of the Edison spirit and hit the market by storm. As a team we can do it! >From all the e-mail that I have received in the past week I realize that a patent will cost me around 10K, even if I do it myself. It will also tie down my hands. The best way is to publish and then have distributors flood the market. This way these Universities and big companies can not say that it belongs to them. I have worked to hard and endured much discredit over the years to see everything flushed down the tubes. If I were a richer man then perhaps it would not matter. My accomplishments in my research is who I am. Not having to worry about funding for my work in radioative reactions would be nice. > > What happened to the Moray device? The fuel cell is directly related! I have turned over every stone in regards to this device. I have even had the privillage to talk to some of Moray's old team members. Yes, some are still alive. There are some things that I have not said because of the credibility gap that I have had to endure. I have never been a numbers and figures kind of guy. My lab does not contain accurate equipment due to to lack of proper funding. I spend many hours in deep thought, my expensive lab resides within the confines of my thought processes. What I can manage to build in my workshop are at this point lab prototypes. I am hoping to build at least one production prototype within the next few weeks. What I build works. I am 100% sure that the lab prototypes can be geared up to produce large amounts of power. > > I'm interested, of course, but the whole idea was to move AWAY from using > fuel and tap into the Dirac Sea of Energy...are you planning a similar > licensing of the technology with your Moray-like device?? It is time that people get their hands out of the clouds. Yes, there is a "sea of energy" just waiting to be harnessed. However, it is not magic and even this sea has its limits. When the full truth comes out of my mouth "free energy" devices of yesteryear will be understood and the myths can be put to rest. Some will still cling to self-delusion... but heck, we can't make everyone happy. > > That's what I'm really interested in setting up to build. My experiments > with the Chernetski Plasma device are still not showing OU.. You are missing vital pieces of the puzzle. This will change for you this year... :) -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 07:08:00 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA06251; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:07:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:07:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3895A552.74F6@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:08:02 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nu Energy Horizons CC: nuenergy2@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: fuel cell info? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FoBVf.0.UX1.TKQbu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13784 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com BART2SUE@aol.com wrote: > > Bruce, > > What do you want for this info? A self-addressed stamped No. 10 envelope. A $1.00 donation could help but is not necessary, this is up to you. -BAP From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 07:19:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA10883; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:19:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:19:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3895A806.3396@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:19:34 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nu Energy Horizons CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Urgent! References: <3894D86C.7210@cyberportal.net> <3895A3CD.6655DBCB@globalcrossing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MPZ1V1.0.yf2.sVQbu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13785 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com MARTIN WOLFF wrote: > > I think what you are doing is the best option but it must go public domain > to avoid someone else gaining a patent on it. I see in the link that the > military are in on it because of the ballistic missile use - I wonder if > there are already restricted patents already out there on this. This is the thing that I did not want to happen to this technology. If a government lab or university obtains a restricted patent then all my work will have been for nothing. Once this info is made public then they can not stop us from manufacturing this invention. > > Do you have any view of how to coordinate the effort. I'm sure everyone > will go off in their own direction based on their own particular skills > and equipment. I am trusting in people that they will not go off in their own direction. If they do then are they any better? It is my goal to coordinate this project and be steps ahead of the big boys game. > > That is good when there is time but that doesn't seem the case here. If > there isn't some kind of standard product design by summer, there may not > be a window of opportunity to sell it. What I am getting at here is if you > want to sell a product to someone else, it must be reliable above > everything else and the only way to achieve that is to use standard > (inter-changeable) parts from suppliers not whatever you have lying around > in your garage. I am pretty set in this regards... I agree, we have to have distributors off and running by summer. The economy is on its way down with the fuel prices the way they are today. To hammer the nail deeper the feds are due to raise interest rates on monday. > > I know it's the boring part of the whole process but it is also the > reason why may good ideas fail. I am trying to avoid the mistakes that Moray made. With a strong people network how can we fail? -BAP From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 14:36:55 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA28981; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:34:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:34:10 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:17:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Radiation in the news Message-ID: <20000131.172302.-422471.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-13,19-20,26-27,32-42,44-45,47,49-57,59-63,65-66,68-70 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"qoTiI3.0.h47.WtWbu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13786 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:46:47 -0500 "Bruce A. Perreault" writes: > Tom, > > I have to agree with you here. However, my main point is > that it is not the radiation at these plants that are > causing cancers... it is the chemicals that they use. > > > -BAP (What I wrote, and he responded to, is at the bottom of this post) Mr. Perreault, If you read my post, you will see I did not mention radiation at all. I was responding to your statement that fluorine gas is added to water systems. This does not occur, as hydrofluoric acid would be the result. The main point was contained in the first sentence of the second paragraph, "As far as the cancer levels are concerned, you're barking up the wrong tree if you blame it on fluorine." Even if some fluorine gas is lost from the processing of uranium ore, either in the production of UF6 or the recovery of F2, then the gas that escapes will almost certain to bind to the first molecule it meets, because if it's high degree of electronegativity. In fact, it should be rendered harmless because it tends to stick with the molecule to which it is bonded. Just because dangerous chemicals are used does not mean that they are a threat to the health and well being of society. Certainly, if a worker was exposed to elemental fluorine, or even UF6, he would be seriously injured or killed, but to cite cancer rates for the entire nation is completely irrelevent. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com ----------------------------------------- >From Newspaper Headlines: "L.A. voters approve urban renewal by landslide" >tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > > Fluorine gas is NOT added to drinking water, to do so would be very > stupid and very dangerous. Fluorine-containing salts, such as NaF and > certain tin fluorides, are added in minute quantities, about 1.0 ppm. It > is true that the fluorine enters the blood plasma in order to help reduce > tooth decay, and that excessive concentrations , over 3 to 5 ppm, can > damage the ameloblasts (the enamel forming cells) and allow pigment to > stain the hypoplastic area on teeth. However, a far, far greater worry > is the addition of chlorine to drinking water. By dissolving Cl2 in > water, hypochloric acid (HClO) is formed. It's the best disinfectant > known, but it is also known to be much more toxic than fluorine > compounds. > > As far as the cancer levels are concerned, you're barking up the wrong > tree if you blame it on fluorine. Fluoridated water was already in > widespread use in 1957, which is long enough before the period you > mentioned that any adverse effects from fluoridation would be known. > Increased amounts of carcinogenic food additives, more smokers and drug > users, combined with poor fitness are the more likely cause of the higher > cancer rates. Also, cancer is being more accurately diagnosed and > diagnosed earlier than in the '70s, which introduces an unknown into the > accuracy of your figure. > > -Tom Grimes ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 14:59:22 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05792; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:57:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:57:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3896137E.6735@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:58:06 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Radiation in the news References: <20000131.172302.-422471.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZptjB2.0.PQ1.5DXbu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13787 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tom, What ever... you are missing my main point. I do not wish to get into a discussion whether or not fluorine in the drinking water causes cancer or not. Most of us know that it is not put into the water as a gas. It is more than likely that food additives is one leading cause of cancers. -BAP tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:46:47 -0500 "Bruce A. Perreault" > writes: > > Tom, > > > > I have to agree with you here. However, my main point is > > that it is not the radiation at these plants that are > > causing cancers... it is the chemicals that they use. > > > > > > -BAP > (What I wrote, and he responded to, is at the bottom of this post) > > Mr. Perreault, > > If you read my post, you will see I did not mention radiation at all. I > was responding to your statement that fluorine gas is added to water > systems. This does not occur, as hydrofluoric acid would be the result. > The main point was contained in the first sentence of the second > paragraph, "As far as the cancer levels are concerned, you're barking up > the wrong tree if you blame it on fluorine." > > Even if some fluorine gas is lost from the processing of uranium ore, > either in the production of UF6 or the recovery of F2, then the gas that > escapes will almost certain to bind to the first molecule it meets, > because if it's high degree of electronegativity. In fact, it should be > rendered harmless because it tends to stick with the molecule to which it > is bonded. > > Just because dangerous chemicals are used does not mean that they are a > threat to the health and well being of society. Certainly, if a worker > was exposed to elemental fluorine, or even UF6, he would be seriously > injured or killed, but to cite cancer rates for the entire nation is > completely irrelevent. > > -Tom Grimes > > mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com > ----------------------------------------- > >From Newspaper Headlines: > "L.A. voters approve urban renewal by landslide" > > >tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > > > > Fluorine gas is NOT added to drinking water, to do so would be > very > > stupid and very dangerous. Fluorine-containing salts, such as NaF and > > certain tin fluorides, are added in minute quantities, about 1.0 ppm. > It > > is true that the fluorine enters the blood plasma in order to help > reduce > > tooth decay, and that excessive concentrations , over 3 to 5 ppm, can > > damage the ameloblasts (the enamel forming cells) and allow pigment to > > stain the hypoplastic area on teeth. However, a far, far greater worry > > is the addition of chlorine to drinking water. By dissolving Cl2 in > > water, hypochloric acid (HClO) is formed. It's the best disinfectant > > known, but it is also known to be much more toxic than fluorine > > compounds. > > > > As far as the cancer levels are concerned, you're barking up > the wrong > > tree if you blame it on fluorine. Fluoridated water was already in > > widespread use in 1957, which is long enough before the period you > > mentioned that any adverse effects from fluoridation would be known. > > Increased amounts of carcinogenic food additives, more smokers and drug > > users, combined with poor fitness are the more likely cause of the > higher > > cancer rates. Also, cancer is being more accurately diagnosed and > > diagnosed earlier than in the '70s, which introduces an unknown into > the > > accuracy of your figure. > > > > -Tom Grimes From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 16:17:15 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA02524; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:17:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:17:05 -0800 Message-ID: <001501bf6c4a$c82c7640$56a270d1@acer> From: "sparky" To: "Nu Energy Horizons" Cc: , Subject: Re: Urgent! Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:24:58 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"IjWqj3.0.Hd.1OYbu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13788 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Hi Bruce, I am sending an envelope, I wish to be a distributor for Alaska. I am enclosing $20.00 to help the cause. Thank you in advance! (:o)) :) -----Original Message----- From: Bruce A. Perreault To: nuenergy@listbot.com Cc: nuenergy2@listbot.com ; freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Sunday, January 30, 2000 3:35 PM Subject: Urgent! >Nu Energy Horizons - http://www.nuenergy.org > >Dear Supporters, > >This was brought to my attention today. >In response I am not filing for my patent. >This is just too close for comfort. > >For those of you who have requested to distribute >the Nu Power Fuel Cells please forward a self-addressed >stamped #10 envelope to me. I will in turn send you a >hardcopy of my basic fuel cell design. This comprises >one sheet with text on both sides detailing the invention. >It also includes a diagram of the cell. It is dated and >notorized by my bank. > >I think the best way to proceed now is to give a public >disclosure at this point. The next step is to build production >runs and sell them to everyone that we come into contact with. >As a team we can hit the market hard! > >Any feedback at this point is welcome. If I am going about this >in the wrong way please let me know. > > > -Bruce A. Perreault > > >http://www.escribe.com/science/keelynet/m7874.html > >http://www.manufacturing.net/magazine/dn/archives/current/tech.html > > Driving cars with hydrogen peroxide > > Researchers at Purdue University (West Lafayette, IN) are developing a >new > type of environmentally friendly fuel cell that runs on chemical >reactions > between hydrogen peroxide and aluminum and generates about 20 times >more > electricity per pound than car batteries, claim the developers. "It has >a huge > amount of energy potential," says John Rusek, an assistant professor of > aeronautics and astronautics at Purdue, who is working with students to > develop the cell. The hydrogen peroxide serves two roles: it is a >"catholyte," > meaning it is both the electrolyte, a liquid that conducts electricity >and allows > the reaction to occur, and also the cathode, or the portion of the >battery that > attracts electrons. The aluminum serves as the cell's fuel and its >anode; as it > oxidizes, it gives up electrons. Waste products include water and >recyclable > chemical compounds. The experimental cells do not immediately provide a > steady supply of electricity. It takes about two hours for the cells to >reach their > peak electrical output before producing a steady current flow. If >perfected, such > an electricity source could one day replace conventional batteries in >many > applications, including portable electronic equipment, Rusek says. A >poster > paper about the research was presented in November,1999 during the >Second > International Hydrogen Peroxide Propulsion Conference at the >University. Call: > (765) 494-4782 or e-mail: rusek@ecn.purdue.edu. > > >______________________________________________________________________ >To unsubscribe, write to nuenergy-unsubscribe@listbot.com >______________________________________________________________________ >Get a Free PC with a 3-year subscription to The Microsoft Network >(after rebates). The new PC features a 400MHz Celeron, 32MB, 4GB, 40x >CD, 3D Graphics and a 56K modem. Come to >http://www.listbot.com/links/myfavoritepc2 for details. Act now >since this is a limited time offer! > From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 16:22:43 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA04302; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:22:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:22:35 -0800 Message-ID: <38962776.3B26@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:23:18 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nu Energy Horizons CC: nuenergy2@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Urgent! References: <004701bf6c41$b5db85c0$5e29fc3e@puma> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wH7HH3.0.731.BTYbu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13789 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Graham Berry wrote: > > Bruce, > > Well, you certainly won't be like Tesla and Moray and die with the answers. > Lets all make sure that everyone knows that it was you that released this > information and not falsely claim to be the source. > > Envelope on the way. I hope I understand the contents. If not I'll be in > trouble with the family again. > > Regards, > Graham It is real easy to understand... according to me anyway. I will fill in the gaps once a dialog on the internet heats up. I only hope that the information is better received than my releases in the past and that some University does not get the dollars on this next release. It will be easy for them to pull off... however, with the support of my peers here this may not be too easy for them to pull off this time around. -BAP From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 17:12:20 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA22427; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:12:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:12:13 -0800 Message-ID: <38963311.4B2A@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:12:49 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Say What is On your Mind!" CC: nuenergy@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Just a thought.. References: <20000131144957.41080.qmail@hotmail.com> <3895A316.2536@cyberportal.net> <002a01bf6bfc$da5fb820$91007bcb@powerplus> <3895AFD5.40D8@cyberportal.net> <38961C46.F48BED36@icon.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MSwOB.0.KU5.iBZbu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13790 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Lyn Barnett wrote: > > Hi all > > I hope this doesnt blow up in the developers face - sending out the > blue print will mean that someone somewhere WILL go off on thier own > then the whole project will be lost.... > > What protection have you set up B? There will be a provisional patent filed in a few days. Mostly Faith in my peers on these lists... -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 18:49:24 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA21194; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:49:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:49:14 -0800 From: tgrimes1@juno.com To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:35:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Radiation in the news Message-ID: <20000131.213544.-397823.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-5,9-13,15-18,20-22,35-44 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Resent-Message-ID: <"84OAe1.0.3B5.gcabu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13791 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:58:06 -0500 "Bruce A. Perreault" writes: > Tom, > > What ever... you are missing my main point. Again?! I guess you'll have to help me out here. What, regardless of the latest posts, is it you're trying to say? You have managed to confuse the daylights out of me. The following are key statements from your posts: "I strongly suspect that it is the chemicals involved in the manufacture of U-235 that is the cancer causing agent [rather than the radiation]. To be more precise...fluorine! These idiots have put this deadly *gas* into our drinking water. It is no wonder that every one in four americans now have cancer, as compared to one in eight-hundred back in the 70s." emphasis & brackets mine "However, my main point is that it is not the radiation at these plants that are causing cancers... it is the chemicals that they use." How was I to know that, after reading the first statement, you knew that fluorine gas isn't used? I have responded to your accusation that fluorine is the true carcinogen that produces the cancers generally associated with radiation. In light of the evidence you presented and a little research on my part, I do not see how you could arrive at that conclusion. And yet, you keep telling me I'm missing the point. I, too, have no wish to have a long drawn discussion of the impossibility of putting fluorine gas in water. I do, however, want to find out if your claim that processing chemicals are to blame is correct. How, in light of your own statements, is this missing the point? Are there other chemicals to which you are refering, but faireferringention? Or do you just expect the list to take your statement as truth without looking into it? By the way, good luck on your disclosure. -Tom Grimes mailto:tgrimes1@juno.com ----------------------------------------- >From Newspaper Headlines: "L.A. voters approve urban renewal by landslide" ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 19:23:33 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA01147; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:23:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:23:21 -0800 Message-ID: <389651E1.22FE@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:24:17 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Radiation in the news References: <20000131.213544.-397823.0.tgrimes1@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"W1_2a.0.mH.e6bbu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13792 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Tom, Again... because I used the word "gas" does not mean that it has to be its free state! This sort of nit-picking serves no purpose. I picked fluorine out of the hat... any of the processing chemicals used could be to blame. Don't you find it rather odd that the government releases their report a few days after a finding is released that states the opposite? Anyway... I do not wish to take this discussion any further... there are more pressing problems these days to tend to. -BAP tgrimes1@juno.com wrote: > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:58:06 -0500 "Bruce A. Perreault" > writes: > > Tom, > > > > What ever... you are missing my main point. > > Again?! I guess you'll have to help me out here. What, regardless of > the latest posts, is it you're trying to say? You have managed to > confuse the daylights out of me. The following are key statements from > your posts: > > "I strongly suspect that it is the chemicals involved in the manufacture > of U-235 that is the cancer causing agent [rather than the radiation]. > To be more precise...fluorine! These idiots have put this deadly *gas* > into our drinking water. It is no wonder that every one in four > americans > now have cancer, as compared to one in eight-hundred back in the 70s." > emphasis & brackets mine > > "However, my main point is that it is not the radiation at these plants > that > are causing cancers... it is the chemicals that they use." > > How was I to know that, after reading the first statement, you knew that > fluorine gas isn't used? I have responded to your accusation that > fluorine is the true carcinogen that produces the cancers generally > associated with radiation. In light of the evidence you presented and a > little research on my part, I do not see how you could arrive at that > conclusion. And yet, you keep telling me I'm missing the point. I, too, > have no wish to have a long drawn discussion of the impossibility of > putting fluorine gas in water. I do, however, want to find out if your > claim that processing chemicals are to blame is correct. How, in light > of your own statements, is this missing the point? Are there other > chemicals to which you are refering, but faireferringention? Or do you > just expect the list to take your statement as truth without looking into > it? > > By the way, good luck on your disclosure. > > -Tom Grimes From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 19:27:30 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA03588; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:27:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:27:25 -0800 Message-ID: <389652D9.45CF@cyberportal.net> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:28:25 -0500 From: "Bruce A. Perreault" Reply-To: nuenergy@cyberportal.net Organization: Nu Energy Horizons X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nu Energy Horizons CC: nuenergy2@listbot.com, freenrg-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Urgent! References: <004701bf6c41$b5db85c0$5e29fc3e@puma> <38962776.3B26@cyberportal.net> <000f01bf6c55$648ac820$13a0fea9@brynel> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6DQKI1.0.zt.SAbbu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13793 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Dr Bryan Nelson wrote: > > Am sending a envelope and $50 to help out. Hope there will be much more > later to get things going.. I just hope that the magic is still in the air once the trick is revealed. Your support is appreciated. Thank you for having faith in me. -Bruce A. Perreault From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 19:56:46 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA13988; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:54:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:54:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:54:33 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Some rather strange convection.... In-Reply-To: <000101bf6acd$db1cc940$e1d984a9@hp-customer> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"jlUYt2.0.PQ3.xZbbu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13794 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com On Sat, 29 Jan 2000, Phil Henshaw wrote: > Fairly easily reproduced convection experiments (smoke in a box > http://idt.net/~ph/airbox.htm) seem to show energy storage and release > by a new mechanism. I've circulated this a little and so far folks > seem to be either left sort of dysfunctionally speechless, or filled > with rage(!) I must say it took several years to get used to the > idea > myself. The problem presented may be strange but I don't think it's > going away any time soon.... Very cool! Do you mind if I link your page to my Science Fair section? Regarding disbelief/rage, I put together a small website about this: CLOSEMINDED SCIENCE http://www.amasci.com/weird/wclose.html The rage reaction of scientists is much more common than we'd like to think. Anything that seriously violates the contemporary world-view is seen as a threat. WHen people say that "science is a religion", I think this sort of psychology is what they mean. Scientific knowledge is BELIEFS, but it's beliefs supported by evidence. If you call somebody's beliefs into question, they react like humans always do (rather than like the emotionless stereotype Scientists supposedly ahere to.) > > -- > Phil Henshaw > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > 167 W 87th St NY NY 10024 > tel: 212-579-2914 > homepage: idt.net/~ph > > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb@eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 31 20:53:05 2000 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA04349; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:52:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:52:51 -0800 X-Sender: knuke@mail.lcia.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Some rather strange convection.... Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 00:03:37 -0500 Message-ID: <20000201050337812.AAA246@mail.lcia.com@lizard> Resent-Message-ID: <"T8clf1.0.s31.YQcbu"@mx1> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/13795 X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com Phil and Bill wrote: >On Sat, 29 Jan 2000, Phil Henshaw wrote: > >> Fairly easily reproduced convection experiments (smoke in a box >> http://idt.net/~ph/airbox.htm) seem to show energy storage and release >> by a new mechanism. I've circulated this a little and so far folks >> seem to be either left sort of dysfunctionally speechless, or filled >> with rage(!) I must say it took several years to get used to the >> idea >> myself. The problem presented may be strange but I don't think it's >> going away any time soon.... > >Very cool! Do you mind if I link your page to my Science Fair section? Ahoy there, I took a look the page as well, and had a couple of questions. 1 Is the viewing box that you used made of acrylic? 2 Have you tried a cubicle of 6 equal sided, and does it still work the way it does with a narrow box? Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1121 Dustin Drive The Villages, Florida 32159 (352)259-1276 knuke@LCIA.COM http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm